Hard Talks: The Moth Podcast

On this episode, two stories of having the hard conversations, and how nerve-wracking - and rewarding - they can be. Hosted by Chloe Salmon. Storytellers: Annie Wiborg finds a way to give her daughter ‘the talk.’ Wendy Cuellar is inspired to become a guidance counselor.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordability, and it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or get a Corolla sedan, packed with the latest features, advanced tech, and head-turning style. Take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Grand Highlander and adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid and plug-in hybrid models available across the lineup, plus efficient all-electrics like the BZ, BZ Woodland, and all-wheel-drive CHR, you can drive your way and skip the pump. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with legendary resale value, built on a reputation for quality and reliability. So when it's time for your next Toyota, you could trade in for more.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  I'm a big fan of the fall. Shorter days mean cozier nights. I'm looking at a new rug for my living room, some fluffy pillows, and some large pillar candles so that I can fake a fireplace vibe in my New York City apartment. I look to Wayfair because of their great selection and quality. Wayfair Verified means products are hand-vetted by product specialists using a 10-point quality inspection. Wayfair makes finding home solutions simple with thousands of products tailored to every style and budget. You can browse real customer photos and read through more than 20 million verified five-star reviews to select the ideal items for your home. Whether you're upgrading an essential appliance or decorating for the upcoming festive season, you'll love the options. Find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  Welcome to The Moth. I'm Chloee Salmon. Some conversations have the potential to be terrifying. Whether it's telling a partner you need to break up, telling your parents where that dent in the car door really came from, or even telling a friend that getting bangs would in fact be a catastrophic decision for them. The thought of having a tough talk can inspire an almost physical dread. You feel it in your throat, in your heart, your stomach. In this episode, two stories of having the hard conversations and how nerve-wracking and rewarding they can be. First up is Annie Wyborg, who told this story at a Twin Cities Grand Slam, where the theme was "Comfort Zone." Here's Annie, live at The Moth.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  I could tell that my mom was really nervous that afternoon all those years ago. It was just her and I sitting in the living room, but she jumped up and closed all the curtains. I guess on the off-chance that a neighbor who could lip read would walk by and know that my mom was having the talk with her daughter.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  And she was clutching a brochure from the church, a guideline on how to talk to your child about sex, more than likely written by someone who had never had a child or sex.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  And I was anxious to get the scoop. I had my theories. But when Mom got down to it, Tab A into Slot B, I didn't see that coming.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  And in an attempt to console me, Mom assured me that it's the woman that takes the lead, and she signals readiness by wearing perfume.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Probably spritzing herself from a little bottle of "No Headache Tonight, Honey."

• 3:59Speaker 02

  But the one thing my mom didn't cover in that talk was anything about birth control. And so, when it was time for me, years later, to have that talk with my daughter, I made sure that was on the agenda. And a year or two after I had that talk with my daughter, I received a phone call one afternoon from the father of a young man my daughter was dating. They were both 15. And this dad said that he was sure that our kids were having a physical relationship. And while I didn't love hearing that word, that news, the alarm, five bell alarm fire that was starting in my head is, what are they doing to prevent pregnancy?

• 4:42Speaker 02

  And I knew that my daughter wouldn't just tell me that was not how she rolled. I would have to find a way to get her out of her comfort zone. So I came up with a plan. An hour later, I picked her up from the mall and we drove in silence, but rather than going home, I kept driving out into the country. And my daughter was immediately nervous. What is happening? And I told her I could understand. She probably didn't want to talk to me about birth control, but it was critical that she did. And that I would drive as long and as far as it would take until we could have that conversation.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  And my daughter turned pale, but she clammed up, as I knew that she would. And now, we're driving past fields and barns. Eventually, we come to the first town. And I remember to tell her then that I do have a full tank of gas. And it's almost as if I could hear that little golf pencil in her mind crossing out the line item, jump out at gas station, call a friend. But she remained silent. And the stress, the tension in that car was growing with each mile. Eventually, we get to the second town.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  And I say, oh, hey, by the way, I packed an overnight bag for us. It's in the trunk.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  I swear I heard a little whimper escape from her at that point. But she remained resolute. And now with every mile and every minute, I was, I was, my heart was beating harder and harder. My plan was backfiring. And by the time we approached that third town, we had been on the road for almost an hour. And I decided it was time to bring the big guns out. And so though we were still several hundred miles from the border, I said, "Looks like we'll be sleeping in South Dakota tonight." And that was it for her. She said, "I'll talk. Let's talk."

• 7:01Speaker 02

  So I turned around in a farmer's driveway and pulled over as soon as I could. She told me that she had wanted to talk to me for these past two weeks. She did want some help, but she could not find a way to start that conversation. And so together, we came up with a better plan than what had been in place. Now, my daughter and I, we didn't talk about that drive for many years, but from time to time, I wondered if I had done the right thing. It was as if a jury had assembled in my mind and I was continually presenting the case for the defense, that the stakes had been high and that time was of the essence.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  But the jury remained deadlocked. Until that is the day that my daughter told me in a casual conversation that when she's with friends and the subject of mothers comes up, she will sometimes say, "Here's something my mom did once." And I was watching her as she was talking and while her words were neutral, the look on her face was not. And that's when I knew that the defense could finally rest. Thank you.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  That was Annie Wiborg. She retired after working decades in the telecommunications industry. She loves to get up early in the dark, drink coffee, read, journal, and meditate while the sky gradually lightens. The birds and the bees is a classically scary talk to have. Another doozy: navigating moving in with a partner. When my boyfriend and I were getting ready to cohabitate, I had an existential crisis. You don't know me, but this is classic me. Did this mean he was expecting us to spend all of our time together? Would he be offended if I wanted to sit alone in another room sometimes? Would I have to invite him to come every time I left the house? Clearly, alone time is important to me, but I felt like this was kind of a bummer thing to say to my loving boyfriend. So I let it build up.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  For months, until one day, shortly before the move, I couldn't take it anymore. I turned to him and I said, "I would very much like to not spend every moment together, and it doesn't mean I don't love you, but my god, I need to be alone sometimes." Extra points for a chill delivery. He looked at me with the slightly dazed expression of someone who had been caught in a freak thunderstorm and said, "I mean, yeah, me too." I'm happy to report that on the other side of that scary-for-me conversation, we've been existing in different rooms of our apartment sometimes when we feel like it for 12 years and counting now. Up next, a story about the importance of talking through the hard stuff. Back in a moment.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's the memory of getting new clothes for back to school, but when fall comes around, I get excited about shopping. I bought a thick, black cotton sweater, the perfect transitional piece, and I'm also eyeing some corduroy pants, a suede tote, and a sharp trench coat. Because Quince gets it all right: style, comfort, and affordability. Quince offers luxury quality at accessible prices, including cashmere sweaters that start at just $50. They cut out unnecessary retail middlemen and partner directly with ethical factories, saving you 50 to 80% compared to similar brands. They also carry down jackets, fine jewelry, and luxury bath essentials. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was The Moth. It's the best way to support the show.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  Please hold me. My firstborn child has gone off to middle school with his first cellphone. Aside from the feelings around all of it, the whole process was super easy. If you're looking for a great service without overpaying, Mint Mobile is definitely worth checking out. The service has been reliable and it gives me such peace of mind, knowing that if my sweet kid is riding the subway with no adults, he always has enough signal to say, "Hey mommy, I'm heading home." And I love that I'm saving money on my wireless bill. Mint fixes everything annoying about phone companies by offering premium wireless for just 15 bucks a month right now for every single plan, even unlimited, giving you high-speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com/moth. That's mintmobile.com/moth.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com/moth. That's it, there's no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months, plan required. $15 per month equivalent, taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Welcome back. Our next story is from Wendy Cuellar, who told it at an Asheville Story Slam where the theme was endings. Here's Wendy, live at the Moth.

• 12:10Speaker 04

  Michael saved all my notes in a shoebox underneath his bed.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  And he knew just where to hit my locker so that when it got stuck, it would pop open and hit the other locker right beside it. And sometimes, late at night, when I couldn't sleep, I would call him and we would lay the receiver on the pillow beside our head and just listen to each other breathe. We were 13.

• 12:43Speaker 04

  We were best friends. He knew all my secrets. And that's why on Tuesday in October, when he didn't show up at school, I was kind of surprised because I thought I would know why. And Nurse Pike came down and got me and walked me down to her office. And I sat on a little plastic rolly stool. And she told me that Michael had actually died the night before. And I remember touching my face and thinking, and actually saying out loud, "I'm not crying." And she said, "That's because you're in shock. And shock is when the truth hasn't hit your heart yet." And she said, "You'll cry, but it will be later.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  And right now, you need to go home." And so she called my mom, and my mom came and picked me up. And I got in the car, and my mom had been crying. And I got in the car, and she squeezed my hand. And she looked at me, and she shook her head. And we rode home in silence. And Nurse Pike was right. I cried when I got home, and I cried for the days and weeks following that event. And I would write long, angsty poems in my English journal about death and funerals and coffins and ghosts, trying to kind of understand what had happened to Michael. And every week, I would get the writings back with a little red check in the side of the paper.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  No comment. Science was the hardest class because Michael and I would sit in the back of the room together. And I would kind of weep now that he wasn't there. And the science teacher pulled me out. And she said, "Look, you've got to get yourself together." She said, "If you don't stop crying, I'm going to send you down to the school counselor." Well, I didn't know what a school counselor was or who it was, but it sounded like punishment to me. So I stopped crying at school. And I saved my tears for when I got home. And I would turn my stereo up to number 10. And the walls would vibrate, and the door would shake. And I would cry loud, sad words. And no one ever knocked on the door to find out why.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  And sometimes, late at night, I would take the phone and just put it on the pillow and just listen to the dial tone. Fast forward fifteen years. I'm almost done with my masters and I am so excited because I've got a job. And believe it or not, I'm a school counselor. And I've got my first client and he's right outside that door and I've got the referral sheet and I am psyched I'm going to help somebody, right? And I look at his name and it says, the teacher has written, doesn't raise his hand, doesn't participate in class, doesn't turn in homework, doesn't have any friends, poor handwriting, we think he has a learning disability. And down at the bottom, there's a little asterisk and an arrow.

• 15:40Speaker 04

  And I turn the piece of paper over and on the back, the teacher has written, his mother and brother died last year, that might have something to do with it. And before I can even process the information, the knock is on the door and the door is open and there he is. And he comes into my office and he throws himself down in the chair and he's like this. And I just see the back of his head and he's looking out the window. And suddenly, anything that I learned in my masters program is out the window. I can't remember anything to say, so I say, "So, how's sixth grade?" Nothing, back of the head. So then I say, "Got any friends?"

• 16:25Speaker 04

  Nothing, back of the head. "What do you do for fun?" Nothing, back of the head. And now I'm starting to think maybe I need to go ask for help because I'm, you know, thinking about all that I've learned and they didn't really cover what you do in this. And suddenly, he turns around and he leans forward and he's about 12 inches away from me. And I can feel his breath on my cheeks as he says, "I watched my mother and brother drowned in the river, but I guess you don't want to talk about that, do you?"

• 17:00Speaker 04

  And my first thought was, no, I really don't want to talk about that. And then I thought, my God, the sound of silence must be deafening for him. And I thought, what I held on for 15 years, that was such an ending for me as a young person, was going to be a beginning for this kid, maybe. And if I was lucky, it was also going to be a beginning for that school counselor sitting beside him. So I looked at him and I said, yeah, actually, I do want to talk about that. Thank you.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  That was Wendy Quayar. Wendy lives in the mountains of western North Carolina with her spouse and a faithful rescue pup. She comes from a long line of storytellers and hopes her daughter carries that lineage forward, listening deeply, speaking bravely, and knowing when silence tells the best story. That brings us to the end of our episode. Thank you to our storytellers for sharing with us and to you for listening. And maybe use these stories as inspiration to say thank you to all of the counselors,

• 18:16Speaker 00

  teachers, friends, strangers, and loved ones who show up, ready to have the tough conversations. And from all of us here at The Moth, we hope your hard talks lead to something beautiful.

• 18:27Speaker 05

  Chloe Salmon is a director at The Moth. Her favorite Moth moments come on show days when the cardio is done, the house lights go down, and the magic settles in. Annie Wiborg's story was coached by Sarah Austin Jenness. This episode of The Moth Podcast was produced by Sarah Austin Jenness, Sarah Jane Johnson, and me, Mark Sollinger. The rest of The Moth's leadership team includes Gina Duncan, Christina Norman, Marina Kluchay, Jennifer Hickson, Jordan Cardinalle, Caledonia Cairns, Kate Tellers, Suzanne Rust, and Patricia Uranya. The Moth Podcast is presented by Odyssey. Special thanks to their executive producer, Leah Reese Dennis. All Moth stories are true, as remembered by their storytellers.

• 19:12Speaker 05

  For more about our podcast, information on pitching your own story, and everything else, go to our website, themoth.org.