550 | Surgical Decluttering

Joshua and T. K. talk about surgical decluttering, when more is better than minimalism, our favorite minimalist furniture brands, a new 14-minute decluttering rule, and much more. Discussed in this episode: Is expectation premeditated disappointment? (6:07) When does minimalism stop solving the problem and start becoming the problem? (9:51) When is more better than minimalism? (21:01) Right Here, Right Now: Zoom calls with The Minimalists and Tom Cat's em(body)ment sessions. (30:21) WWJO: What couch and dishes does Joshua own? (43:01) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, The Minimalists, Joshua Fields Millburn. Whoa, 550 episodes, TK Coleman. Wow. Can you believe it?

• 0:50Speaker 02

  That's unbelievable, man. 550. What's the biggest difference today at 550 than like going into number one?

• 0:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm wearing shorts today. I was wearing pants that day. Seems like the biggest difference.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  You ever thought you'd be around as long?

• 1:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Man, when Ryan and I first started the podcast, we thought we'd do six to 10 episodes. That was the original plan.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  No way.

• 1:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's all we wanted to do. And so we rented this little storage closet. It was a janitor's closet. They moved the mops out to the University of Montana. We're hiding out in, we moved two desks in there and one microphone. That first episode we did, episode number one, was just one microphone, I believe. And yeah, we thought we would do six to 10 episodes, just talking about minimalism. And it was in the lead up to our first documentary that was coming out. And the opposite thing happened. When that came out, it ended up promoting the podcast in interesting ways. And we found that we really enjoyed talking into these microphones, but really it's because the people who are involved, they're calling in and asking questions.

• 1:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it's always been centered around the curiosities of the audience. And so, no, I didn't have any grand plans to do 550 episodes, and yet here we are today.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Quick observation, one quick question. First, I imagine you and Ryan going to like the president of the University of Montana and being like, hey, can we do a podcast here? And he was like, oh, yeah, that'd be real good. Put him in a closet, hide him in a closet. So my question for you is, after 550 episodes, you've kind of said everything that you can say, right? My question for you is, I know what my answer to this is, my question for you is, why keep showing up? Why are you still doing this? Haven't you said everything that you know about minimalism?

• 2:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, I keep showing up because the people keep asking the questions, right? You're right, I've told my story about simplifying, and I can relate these things back to me. But often, it's not about me, or you, or Ryan. It's about the people who are calling in and they're inquisitive. Maybe they just discovered the minimalist seven days ago, or seven years ago, and they still have questions. And so I'm showing up for those folks.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Another thing I see in you too, is that there's also an artistic component to it, that you also show up because you enjoy showing up. And even if there were only like one to two questions a month coming in, I think you still have fun just talking about minimalism, reflecting on it, and evaluating your own journey, and so on. And you kind of feel lucky that there are some people who just keep showing up for the art that you do.

• 3:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know, there's this old adage that the teacher learns more than the student. And I think that's especially true. I teach a writing class a couple of times a year, and I've done that for 14 years. But especially the first few years, you learn more about writing when you start teaching, right? I think that's true with anything. When you start teaching something, you have to break it down, you have to break down your recipe in a way to better understand all of the constituent parts, the sequence that I put all the ingredients together. So if you have, your grandma has a great recipe, and it's for some spinach dip. She may not even know how she makes the spinach dip. She's been doing it for so long. But if you stop her and say, okay, wait, wait, what are you putting? Oh, some spinach, okay. There's some cheese, oh, some salt, what spice is that? And she doesn't even know because she's been doing it for so long.

• 4:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think the same thing is true with anything. One of the things about doing this show is I get to learn so much about myself and how I'm, when I'm interacting to other people's questions. And so in a way, it's a great way to grow is to teach. And if you want to get better at anything, it's paradoxical, one of the ways to get better is to teach. Does that resonate with you?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. You have to have a higher level of understanding to explain something to someone else than to merely understand it for yourself. And you can experience this even with the basic things. When you help a child with their math, you're not struggling at the level of knowing how to count. You're not struggling at the level of knowing how to read, but explain that to someone who doesn't know it, and you realize, oh, I need to see this from other angles, other than what is required for me to get it. And so, teaching puts you in that space where you can be challenged by having to explain to other minds. And it helps you see whatever it is you know, through the eyes of empathy, and that actually deepens your understanding at a more tacit level.

• 5:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Becoming a parent made minimalism simultaneously more difficult and also easier for me. Easier for me to understand because I had to explain it to a three-year-old. Good luck explaining, well, it's actually, it's the amplification of spaciousness. Okay, that's, that's an interesting thought, and we can break that down philosophically. But how do I explain this to a three-year-old, or a five-year-old, or a seven-year-old? And it makes me pause and think about the best way to, to explain this to someone, not just so I can explain it, but so that they can understand it. I can help that person understand this thing that I'm really passionate about. So let's start this episode with a little something to chew on.

• 6:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Expectation is premeditated disappointment. I wrote down this little bit of truth. Expectation, every expectation is sort of premeditating our own disappointment. I wonder if we reverse that, TK. What happens when we trade our expectations for curiosity?

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Well, when we trade our expectation for curiosity, we move from anticipation to inquiry. So an expectation is what I think is going to happen, or what I think should happen. And the problem with expectation is, there doesn't have to be an agreement with any other person for me to have it. I expect you to talk to me dutifully. I expect you to offer me a snack if you bring one in. I expect, there's no limit to our capacity for expectations. You can literally manufacture as many expectations as you want. And we often expect things in accordance to the limited vision of what we would do if we were in that situation.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  That's deeply problematic because everyone doesn't have our upbringing, everyone doesn't have our biases, they don't have our combination of strengths and weaknesses, they don't have our sensitivities, our personality types, our education, our knowledge, our influences, our mentors, they don't even have the same risk that we have. They don't even have the same goals and desires and ambitions and so on. They don't have the same incentives as us. And so it's very, very likely that if you have an expectation, you're going to eventually get disappointed. But if you take those expectations and you transform them into curiosities, then you get to say, hey, what are you doing this weekend? Would you be willing to do X? Notice, none of that's a demand. That's all the curiosity about what you have going on, and what you might be willing to

• 8:00Speaker 02

  do. And when you transform expectations into curiosities, then you move towards agreements. And agreements are much better feeling than expectations.

• 8:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's so much better because there are, that requires two parties to be involved in the agreement. With the expectation, it's just me heaping that onto you. You may not even know I have an expectation. In fact, I created an expectation for myself this past weekend. I want to tell you about it at the top of page two. Ella and I, my 13-year-old daughter, we accidentally snuck into a movie.

• 8:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'll explain a bit later.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  I can't wait.

• 8:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But coming up on this episode, we're talking about surgical decluttering. I hope you got your gloves and your scalpel, TK. We're also going to talk about when more is better than minimalism. Also, our favorite minimalist furniture brands and much, much more. Plus, on page three, I'll talk to you about a new 14 minute decluttering rule that has changed my home. Quick reminder at the top of the show, the How to Let Go Tour is coming to Seattle, Vancouver and New York City, starting next month. Join me for an evening of laughter, joy and letting go. We'll let go of some expectations together as well. Grab your tickets at theminimalists.com/tour and hit the comments for this episode and let me know which city you'd like me to go to next.

• 9:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's the How to Let Go Tour coming to Seattle, Vancouver and New York City. Grab your tickets while they are still available. All right, let's start with our callers, 406-219-7839. If you want to join the show, just give us a call or send a voice recording to [email protected]. Big shout out to our Patreon subscribers. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement free because sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Blah. Our first question today is from Lee.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Hi, Josh, TK. I'm Lee, a long-term listener and Patriot subscriber from Cardiff, Wales. Having embraced minimalism for almost a decade to gain control and freedom, including relationship clutter, I've surgically decluttered to eliminate excess, reduce wasteful spending, free up financial resources and redefine behaviors. However, I question if minimalism can go too far and address the right problems correctly. While my home is very minimal, it feels empty. There's an echo after further reductions. I'm experimenting with this almost extreme state, but I wonder if I should reintroduce a few items that are currently covered in away. Personally, I breathe better in the calm, but am I addressing the problem correctly?

• 10:37Speaker 03

  If anxieties are remedied by decluttering, is distressing the cause or the effect? Obviously, addressing the cause is preferable. I understand the journey of decluttering, but I'm grappling with how much becomes too much and how far becomes too far. Is this endless pursuit of less truly beneficial? Or is it a never-ending chase that might be better addressed differently? With a skip and a psychotherapist, perhaps? My horizon has a work laptop and motorbike and freedom on it, and that's becoming ever more appealing. But equally, wherever you go, there you are. And the never-ending chase, based on dissatisfaction, remains never-ending. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks, guys. Thanks for all your work. Bye.

• 11:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What a thoughtful question, TK. Lee's sort of wondering here, there's several things baked into this question, but when does minimalism stop solving the problem and start becoming a problem?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  When you practice it in a way that is anti-life or anti-self. You know, the way I see it, man, you could give me a book. You can give me a baseball and I can throw both of them at your head. You know what I mean?

• 11:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He's done that to me before.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  There is no such thing, no such thing as a philosophy or a tool that is so good and so wonderful that it can't be abused. You can give me anything and I can abuse it. Why is that? Because I can either practice it in a self-righteous way where I'm exalting myself above others, or I can practice it in a, in a mode of self-condemnation where I am, I am looking at things through the lens of compensation and self-hate. And either one of those things is, is gonna be ineffective. And that applies to not just minimalism, it applies to healthy eating. I can, I can try to eat healthy from a state of, okay, this is what I need to do. I'm gonna make the most of this process. I'm gonna have a good spirit about it.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  I'm gonna learn, I'm gonna make room for mistakes, have a sense of humor about myself. Let's go. That's healthy. But I can do, I can do it the self-righteous way and say, look at me. I'm eating healthy and all of these peons are just, you know, wasting their times with unhealthy food. Or I can practice it in a self-condemning way, like, oh, I'm such a bad person. I should be doing better and I'm not doing as good as I ought to be. And, you know, it doesn't matter how good I do it from now on because I should have started earlier and I'm just so terrible. There's nothing you can practice that can't be practiced in that way. So when is minimalism too much? It's too much when you are practicing it from a state that misses the point, which is to make your life healthier.

• 13:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're talking about the difference between fasting and sort of dieting. We all, we all recognize that fasting is healthy until it becomes starvation, right? At some point, fasting ceases to be healthy and it becomes a problem. And I think you can map that on here because fasting can be a tool, a really useful tool for cell repair and for GI distress and for weight loss and just for a mental reset, mental clarity as well. So there's nothing inherently wrong with fasting, but it is not a strategy for healthy eating. We, we recognize that, right? It is a strategy to reset things.

• 13:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I often think minimalism that way as well, in, in the sense that, well, minimalism is a tool, as a minimalist, it's kind of like a carpenter uses a hammer. And as you pointed out, any tool can be used as a weapon. Of course, hammers don't build homes, people do, right? And so how am I using that tool, right? Am I using that tool to build something? I'm the person building the home using the hammer? Or am I using that hammer to harm myself or to harm the people around me self-righteously?

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Can you think of any way where you might have been, you know, going along on your minimalist path real smoothly? And then you caught yourself and you said, hey, wait a minute. I'm, I'm, I'm kind of relying on the hammer a little too much. I need to back it off a little bit or I'm becoming a little obsessive with this and I need to practice some moderation.

• 14:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We have a acquaintance online, her name's Lydia, and she was making a lot of minimalism videos last year and she had simplified her life pretty dramatically. And I really liked aesthetically what she was putting together, but she realized that this, she was using it as a sort of hammer to, to hurt herself. And she made a video about this recently and I, I found it interesting because I saw myself in her. I can see how the impulse to let go, that's not minimalism, by the way, that's Spartanism. And it exists on the OCD continuum. And I, I know this as someone with OCD, hoarders have OCD and Spartanists have OCD as well.

• 15:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Spartanist can't hold on to anything. And if they can't hold on to anything, you can't get where you're going. It's the monkey bar analogy. In fact, I'm writing about that right now in the simple newsletter, that if you can't hold on the monkey bars, you can't get to the other side. If you can't let go of the monkey bars, you also can't get to the other side. And I found myself during certain seasons, especially when you get excited about something, all right, I've just learned about minimalism yesterday. And I see Colin Wright and he owns 52 items, everything he owns fits in his backpack. I need to do the same thing. And you go to your closet and it's easy at first because there's something in there you haven't worn in at least a year. And you could say, oh yeah, I can get rid of that. I can get rid of this, I can get rid of this.

• 16:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But then when my rules become dogmatic, that becomes a problem. The reason we have all these minimalist rules is because I get to break them whenever I want. They're adjustable boundaries. I get to determine what is out of bounds and what isn't out of bounds. And I find that as soon as I get too dogmatic about, I'm gonna just, I can only have three shirts. I can only have 10 shirts. I can only own 100 items. That misses the point. And Lee hasn't gotten there yet, but he recognizes, oh yeah, maybe I'm missing the point. The calm is the point. He even alluded to that. I really enjoy the calm. And so I would say, what amplifies your calm? More of that, maybe it's more space, maybe it's certain physical goods.

• 16:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And then you can expose yourself to those things. And if it turns out that it's not true, that you bring something into your home and you're like, no, that actually does stress me out. That's okay. Lesson learned. It's not a failure. It's just a lesson.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  This reminds me of growing up, my auntie Evelyn, man, she was like a deals hunter. She really enjoyed the process of like beating the price that she would see somewhere. And she took it almost like a personal challenge. If she, if she saw a shirt that she wanted to get someone as a gift or that she liked for herself, and maybe it was $40, it was worth her while to see if she could find it somewhere else for 35, even if she drove way to the other side of town or whatever it may be. But I never heard her express stress about that. I never heard her complain about it. She's kind of like what the basketball player is who loves being down by one point

• 17:50Speaker 02

  in the final second of the game and shooting that last shot with all the pressure. There's no place they'd rather be. That's, they, they love that pressure, right? Now, if you're doing like my auntie Evelyn and you're stressed out about it because you have this legalistic mindset that says, oh, well, if they're charging me $40 and I can get it for 35, so I'm gonna drive to a different state and spend $100 on gas so that I could save $5 on the shirt. Mathematically, that doesn't make sense. And if you're doing it for the math, then it's getting in the way. You know, trying to save, trying to minimize is getting in the way because you're not actually cutting costs. You're cutting that kind of cost, but you're taking on a bigger one.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  And so how are you practicing minimalism? Some people practice it, like my aunt Evelyn. They love the art of simplifying. They love the challenge of looking around and saying, hey, how might my life be even better with less? And they have fun. But then there are some who do that out of a sense of obligation. They're like, well, okay, I got everything simplified, but I probably should simplify more because it's always possible to have less. It's like, okay, now, now we don't want to try to save costs at the expense of driving to a different state and, and maybe even accumulating some car trouble along the way.

• 19:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Let's zoom in on that word obligation that you just brought up there. I think for me, minimalism allowed me to let go of a lot of obligations at first because I felt obligated to take care of all of my things, to clean the things, to store the things, to have enough space for the things. And of course, I should own the things, not only own the things, but own the right things. And if I do all of that for a long enough period of time, eventually I'm going to find happiness out there, which we'll talk about here in a moment. But then if minimalism turns into the obligation itself, I think that's when it goes too far. When it feels like I have to own only three shirts, or I'm not allowed. Oh, that misses the point.

• 19:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think the rules are really useful, knowing that you can adjust those boundaries. Lee, I would love to send you a copy of Very, Very Simple. Speaking of rules, it's 12 Tools for a Simpler Home. Knowing, I even talk about this in the book. In fact, I would encourage you to listen to the audiobook version. It's up on Audible, but we'll send you a copy of it. Because TK and I did a little mini podcast between every chapter. It's 12 different rules, or 12 tools, just like having 12 tools out of your toolbox. Here's a screwdriver, here's a hammer, here's a set of needle nose pliers. How am I going to use these tools? Certain tools do different jobs in different areas of the house, but also many of the tools that I have in my toolbox are adjustable as well. And these tools are similar.

• 20:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can adjust them to fit your life and to fit your home. It's also available as a beautiful paperback now that fits right inside your purse or your pocket. It's just 69 pages. And yeah, it's 12 Tools for a Simpler Home. It's called Very, Very Simple. You can also download a free PDF copy, if you'd like, over at veryversimples.com. Before we get back to our callers, TK, let's take a look at the question of the week, piggybacking on what Lee had to say. When is more better than minimalism? When is more better than minimalism? Let's check in with our Patreon community chat. Sersha says, more generosity.

• 21:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's better than, I have only one blank, so I hesitate before I'm willing to give it away. You know, it's interesting. I have only one Rolls Royce, which makes it difficult to let go, TK, but if I had 92 Rolls Royces, like the Wise Sage Osho, I would be so much more generous. That's an interesting sort of fallacy that I often have. I remember when I left the corporate world, I have a good friend of mine, who I was telling him like, oh yeah, I've been trying to do some charitable stuff for the last year. I said, I can't now because I don't have any money. I'll make it $23,000 this year.

• 21:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And he said, well, if you can learn to be generous with $23,000 a year, you'll be generous if you make $200,000 a year, or $2 million a year. You'll build up that sort of abundance mindset, even in a place of perceived scarcity, which makes me wonder, how might living more simply help someone be more generous, TK?

• 22:25Speaker 02

  It cultivates a sense of abundance that is necessary for both wealth creation and generosity. Part of why that person gave you the advice about learning how to be more generous with what you have, is because the whole, at the heart of it's better to give than to receive, is that in order to give, you have to be conscious of yourself as having something to offer. It's impossible to give unless you believe you have. And so many of us move about in this world, underestimating ourselves, thinking of ourselves as nothing, or thinking of ourselves as having nothing substantial to offer another person, unless we become a millionaire, unless we become famous, unless we accumulate status.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  And while it may be true that you will have unique things to give, once you ascend or acquire those things, as you are on your way towards those things, you have something to offer every step. And you're more likely to get to those things if you walk into rooms, thinking of yourself as someone who, hey, I may not have nice clothes, I may not be the best looking person in here, I may not have the status or money, I may be the only one in here that no one knows about, but that's okay. I've got something to offer, even if it's my way of showing up and being present and making others feel seen and heard. I have something to offer. That right there is true wealth, and it externalizes in everything that you do.

• 23:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Nick says, minimalism doesn't inherently mean less. So more of the things that let you live authentically fits into my framework of minimalism. I would say indeed to that, I talked earlier jokingly, minimalism is the amplification of spaciousness, but I also think it's the amplification of joy, but it's not the source of it. Which actually brings me to my minimal maxim for this week. Minimalism does not create joy, it uncovers it. I think joy is the pre-existing state. I don't say, let me buy the right accessories for this baby, so they can experience more joy. But sometimes you might buy a little pacifier or something for the kid, not thinking the

• 24:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  joy is in the pacifier, but knowing the joy is in the kid, or it's in some little toy. You've got this bonnet that they enjoy wearing, or you've got this little modal that is going overhead, and they're just smiling at it, or laughing. You know, the joy isn't in the toy, that rhymes, look at that. The joy is in the child, the joy is within us. So why do we always seek joy exogenously, instead of looking endogenously?

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Oh man, let me get a grip on them words first. I know the, I know exo pertains to the outer aspect of a thing.

• 25:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, externally versus like, we think joy is external, but we know, when you step back, you can know that there's, that it can be found here, if I just uncover it.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's this interesting little book called, Our Gods Wear Spandex. And he kind of philosophizes about the role of the superhero, and what the superhero represents, and how they fulfill the role of the gods and goddesses of ancient culture in their mythology. And one idea, as it pertains to the superhero, as well as many of the ancient gods, is that they're kind of projections of those heroic aspects of ourselves, that we're not quite comfortable with, and we don't know how to accept. So we externalize it in the form of Superman, and Batman, and Iron Man, and so on. But the more we reconcile those qualities to ourselves, then the more we see that we are the superheroes.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  And so to apply that to your question, I think the reason why we seek it in the outer stuff, is because we truly underestimate our creativity, and we aren't sufficiently impressed with ourselves. Which is why, when mommy and daddy can't afford to give you that toy, and we have those moments in life we would never ask for, where we don't have the money to solve a problem, we discover that we have this creative ability to come up with new ways of doing things, and it increases us in confidence. But we never, we rarely ask for those moments. Life tends to give it to us, and then we look back and say, oh, I'm glad I didn't have the easy way out, because it was through the hard way. It was through not having, that I realized that I had something more powerful than money, or more powerful than a connection.

• 26:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There's this arrival fallacy, that says, as soon as I get that, then I will be happy. And there's some truth in it, and I think that's part of the problem. But it presupposes that I can't be happy until I get it. I've signed a contract with myself, an expectation, by the way. I've signed this contract with myself to be miserable, until I get a particular outcome. I have a friend, she really, really wants to have kids, and she's having trouble having kids, and I totally get it. And I just feel like, as soon as I have it, my life will be complete, and I will finally be happy. So yeah, you might be happy as a parent.

• 27:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I didn't go into the data that says, parents are actually far less happy in the early years of, but that's just because the child is keeping them up, and they've changed their routine significantly. But I said, it's still possible to be happy right now. And you may get that outcome, you can pursue it happily, as opposed to the happiness of per, it's the happiness of pursuit, not the pursuit of happiness, is maybe the way I would look at it. Because I think that's the, the, seeking the externality is the pursuit of happiness, as if it can be pursued. No, but pursuit can be done happily. And I would just make that distinction. Let's do one more from Aelyn.

• 28:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Aelyn says, minimalism is the removal of the unintentional more, that reveal the intentional more in my life.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Oh yeah.

• 28:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, more love, more time, more freedom, more rest, instead of more stuff, more clutter, and more wasted time. Aelyn, I couldn't have said it better myself. How about you listeners? When is more better than minimalism? Let us know your thoughts in the comments. Or you already got my minimal maxim, TK, but you're on deck now with some profundities. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes, by the way, over at theminimalists.com/podcast, and every minimal maxim ever, at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, every Monday, if you sign up for our free email newsletter at theminimalists.com. It's called the Simple Newsletter, check it out.

• 29:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We'll never send you spam, or junk, or ads, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. All right, give me something pithy, TK. When is more better than minimalism?

• 29:13Speaker 02

  When minimalism gets in the way, never hesitate to throw it away. You know, one job I will never have, Josh, no matter how much they pay me, one job I will never have, is that of a, that of an apologist for minimalism. When someone says, minimalism doesn't work for me, I won't go, well, you misunderstand it. Well, how do you define minimalism? I'll just say, throw it out. Whatever it is that's not working for you, throw it out. I don't care if you're using the word atrociously, just throw it out.

• 29:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  I don't care if you're misunderstanding minimalism. I don't care if you heard it all wrong, just throw it out. Just if it gets in the way, throw it out. Because minimalism is one of those things, that simply has no value, apart from what it promises to do. It's like a vacuum. It only has value if it gets the dirt off the floor. And if it doesn't get the dirt off the floor, it doesn't matter if you misunderstood the vacuum, if you got the bad vacuum out of the million that went out this year, it doesn't matter. Just get rid of that thing, because it's not doing what it's supposed to do, so it has no value for you.

• 30:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Coming up at the bottom of page one, I have a what would Joshua own question. It's an interesting one, but first, we have Tom Cat here in the studio today. Come on up here, Tom Cat. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to, by the way. Give it up for Tom Cat, y'all.

• 30:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes. So Tom Cat, Cat, she edits our videos, the video version of the podcast and she's in studio today. And I was talking to her last week and she's been working on this new thing called embodiment sessions. And I was like, I just want to talk about it on the show. And then I found out she was going to be here in the studio today. So I said, well, instead of me just reading this thing from your website, I wanted to hear it from the source herself. So I loved this idea of embodiment sessions. What is it?

• 31:04Speaker 04

  So, well, first and foremost, thanks for having me on the show, you guys, always an honor. Um, so in my embodiment sessions are an art and wellness experience, I would say. Um, to make a long story short, what feels like many moons ago, I was in my apartment in the arts district in LA. Freshly separated from my ex-husband, I was in the era of trying new things, doing a lot of things that to many seemed crazy, absolutely crazy. And one of those was one night I was in the midst of painting, decided to paint my body bright fuchsia pink, which is crazy for multiple reasons. One, it's just crazy to paint your body in general.

• 31:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're painting, your body is the canvas in this example?

• 31:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, my body is the canvas. And I decided to put it to canvas. Now, this isn't like a new thing. Shout out to Eve Klein. He was actually an incredible artist in France in the 60s. And he actually pioneered this, you know, using the human body as like a paintbrush. And I just had like the inkling to do it. So I said, why not? Like, let's just, let's just be crazy with it. And I am not, the additional reason to why it's crazy is, besides me not even being like a pink gal, is that I have always been a bit of like a tomboy. I am not like your misses, you know, show off my body. Like, I actually typically wear multiple layers of clothing on my body, two X shirts. I love it. I feel

• 32:33Speaker 04

  comfortable in. But when I had this moment of I pressed my body to the canvas and I stood back, it was actually this visceral acceptance that I had of my body. And not even like acceptance, it was like, wow, I'm seeing all of these different elements of my body that for the most part, when I look in the mirror, I don't love to look at, if I'm being real. I feel like there's so many women that also, you know, level out with me as well. So it was such a feeling. So I kept doing it just to have fun. And I was just sharing with my friends. And I had a few friends say like, whoa, wait a minute, like, I, I love the look of this. Like, let, let me do it. I want to try it. So I started having a few friends come over. Then it turned into women that I sort of kind of knew. Then

• 33:18Speaker 04

  it came to women that I didn't know. And, you know, when, and it is, so sorry to all of my gentlemen out there, but it is only for women.

• 33:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That makes sense.

• 33:30Speaker 04

  But, you know, so sorry, maybe, probably not in the future. I'm so sorry.

• 33:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Maybe TK wants to do it.

• 33:35Speaker 04

  I know. You know what? There could be an exception. There could be an exception.

• 33:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, I'm saying if he wants to teach the class, and not if he wants to be in the studio. No, no, no.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  I'm just glad you, you, you mentioned that this has a long history, because Josh thought that was like, that all came from a Keith Sweat song, the body is a canvas. No, continue, please. This is for women. Hey, you don't even apologize for that.

• 33:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can put that as a quote on the, on the website, though.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Totally. Yeah, 100%. I'll have that be like, yeah, like back in the day when you used to have like a MySpace song on the back of it. I'll make that happen. I'll bring that back.

• 34:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  She remembers MySpace. Look at that.

• 34:09Speaker 04

  You know, back in my day. So, but it's so funny, you know, when women come to my studio, I'm in Venice, I'm right on the beach in Venice, not the worst spot to be.

• 34:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Overlooking the Pacific Ocean.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  You know, just, just little God's favorite coming in right there. But, you know, it's so interesting to me when these women come to my studio, I love to set an intention. I'm very, you know, I was raised Catholic, but I'm still very spiritual even today. And I ask these women to set an intention, you know, do you want, I have women that come to me, you know, they're pregnant and they want to document their body at this time in their life.

• 34:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love that.

• 34:49Speaker 04

  They have, I've had women that have had MS. I had one woman come in that has MS and she wanted to honor her legs. So not only do we paint her legs, but we also painted her cane on this massive piece of paper. It's like body, real life body size. It must be like five feet, four feet, how long this paper is. But it's, you know, and even sometimes too, it's not even just documenting what your body can do. Sometimes it's just about being hot, too. I'm not even gonna lie, you know, I was telling, I was telling Josh that. But it really has just been this container that I'm setting for women. And if you asked me, you know, when I was young, you know, young little Catholic gal, is your business

• 35:31Speaker 04

  going to be painting naked women? I would say absolutely not. I would be so embarrassed. I've been a little bit of a prude for most of my life. So it's a bit ironic that this is, you know, my current, uh, my, my current standing in life. But it's been so incredible to have these women come in. And it's much less of, it's not even my painting, like it is the woman's painting. I'm just like a conduit for, you know, this creativity and this self-acceptance to come in to paper. And it's kind of one of those things, you know, you fall into where you think, okay, like, you were talking about it at the top of the episode, right? Like, you're thinking it's just going to be like one episode, six

• 36:14Speaker 04

  episodes. And then it just goes to show you, you know, whether, if there is something in the sky, if there is someone in the sky, it just, sometimes you find yourself in these, in these places and spaces where you just clearly must, must be meant to, meant to be there. So it's, it's a very, I'm very grateful that women trust me to be in this space because it is, you know, nude paintings, which is very, I don't think anyone is normally comfortable in that kind of a situation. But

• 36:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Talk about setting down expectations.

• 36:48Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 36:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because most of us are, I mean, actually, you know what? I would say all of us are uncomfortable. Even if you're as fit as Savvy D is over here, as fit as my wife, we all will see some, some angle in the, well, maybe Savvy D won't. He's just like, wow, look at that. I didn't know I had another ab over there.

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Stop making it awkward.

• 37:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I have an ab on my kneecap. This is crazy. But I think for most of us mere mortals, we, we lack a confidence, but it has something to do with the expectation. What you're doing is you're showing women how to set down those expectations that they didn't even pick up in the first place. Those expectations have been hoisted onto them by culture, by society, by media, by advertisements. And we're, we think that we're incomplete because we don't look exactly like the perfectly airbrushed image. And there's this great Joshua James line from a song. He said, I look at all the models in the magazines with their half a serving hips. And I, there was just this, this line for me that is like, oh yeah, we're

• 37:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  starving ourselves to quote unquote, look good, even though we don't feel good. And what I love is you're doing the opposite. You're showing people that you can feel good with the way that you look. And you're honoring that. And the thing that really stood out to me when she was talking to me about is that the fact that she's a conduit of this. She's, she's not, it's not her imposing any sort of expectations on someone else. She's showing up so that these women can show up as well. And there was this one question you had here. You said that the, that these embodiment sessions were born from a simple question. What if we documented our bodies with the same tenderness we reserve for our memories?

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Oui.

• 38:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Isn't that great, TK?

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because we do have a tender sort of like nostalgia, but it's like, what if I looked at my body the same way?

• 38:35Speaker 04

  Totally. And, you know, the documentation really was a realization after a few sessions. Like, this was truly at first just painting, make the painting, let's be creative, let's splatter some paint to paper. And then I had this moment of recognition, especially with the woman that had MS that came in. I was like, wow, this is, this is a stamp. It's a stamp. In the same way that you have those, you know, like those rubber plates that you can carve out, you make your own stamp. I was like, wow. And I've, I've obviously just only been doing this for a few years. You know, I look forward to the time, hopefully, where women come back to me after a few years. They either come back before they've been pregnant, you know, they come back and they're, you know, they're no longer in their 30s,

• 39:19Speaker 04

  they're in their 40s. And I just think, I mean, you gentlemen, talk about it, there's this pressure from the outside world, right? To be thinner, to be prettier. It's so funny, too, how I have, you know, friends that are models. And when we talk about this intention, I'm like, you know, what do you want to get out of it? They're like, I just want to, I just want to feel good about my body. I don't feel good. I'm like, sister, you're a model. If you don't feel good about your body, I'm having a little bit of trouble too.

• 39:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We're all screwed if you don't. I noticed this, our old studio was on Hollywood Boulevard and we had this two-way glass. So I could see out through the lobby and they, the people, people couldn't see in. It was just a mirror on the outside and the people who checked themselves in the mirror were always the hottest people, the most attractive. They're like fixing everything and you've got some guy walking by, it's just a tourist with his gut hanging out and his cargo shorts are like hanging below his butt crack and he, he's not looking in the mirror at all. But, but the more we neuros over those things, the more we make ourselves miserable. And I love that you're providing a space, a canvas to set down those expectations. And part of that is setting down the misery. Tomcatatelier.com is the website, is that right?

• 40:28Speaker 04

  That is correct.

• 40:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We'll put a link to that in the show notes as well, also down in the description. If you want to check it out, if you want to come out to her studio in Venice, you can book a session with Tomcat whenever they are available. Give it up for Tomcat, y'all.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  Thanks guys. Wait, can I say a quick little thing too?

• 40:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Of course.

• 40:45Speaker 04

  I know how much time that the whole team puts into your community. And I remember crazy enough, you know, I had a friend introduce me to you, Jen, said, I'd always heard like great things.

• 40:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Was it Jacob?

• 40:58Speaker 04

  It was Jacob. Shout out to Jacob. And I remember, you know, I'm like, okay, like, you know, let me, before like working on the editing, like having like a conversation with you guys, let me look into the podcast. I was like, holy cow, what a community you guys have. And, and you know, I remember before coming to the studio, like, what's it going to be like to meet them, you know? Cause you hear these things about before you come into Hollywood, before you come into LA, like what are the people like there, yada, yada. These gentlemen and the whole team, they are even kinder, funnier humans than you can even imagine. And they are already such incredible men on the podcast, but you would be very pleased to meet your heroes if and when you have the opportunity.

• 41:41Speaker 04

  So I have to say that I gotta give some love there too.

• 41:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're the best. We appreciate you, Tomcat. Give it up.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Thank you so much.

• 41:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, you're the best.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  Is it a cat with a K or a C? What do you use?

• 41:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, C. Tomcatatelier.com. We'll put a link to that in the show notes as well.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  T sizzle, not T kizzle.

• 42:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, yeah. I guess TK could be Tomcat. I didn't even think of that. Dang. Dang, yeah. All right. So, uh, Tomcatatelier.com if you want to book a embodiment session. Also, um, our next fams, Friday afternoon minimalist zoom is this Friday, August 7th at 3:00 PM Eastern. It's one of my favorite things we do. It's kind of like a live event, but on a zoom call. We just like a 50 or a hundred of us in the room and we have these really great conversations. Me and TK and of course Ryan Nicodemus joins us for those sessions and we never know where they're going to go because we don't have a safety net. Someone hops up there and we talk to you or we just talk amongst ourselves. We'd love for you to join us there. It's for anyone who subscribes to our $10 tier on Patreon.

• 42:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Uh, we'd love to have a monthly zoom call with you. So if you want to hang out with the minimalist, come do it. Theminimalists.com/zoom for all the details for our next Friday afternoon minimalist zoom. Before we move on to page two, real quick, let's do a what would Joshua own question? This one is from Garrett.

• 43:07Speaker 05

  Hey, my name is Garrett, call from Houston. I was just wondering what kind of couch Josh owns? And also if you have a preferred brand of dishes? Thanks.

• 43:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Garrett, I love your voice. Let me just start there. I love the, just a little bit of twang that, that still pops out from my, the Kentucky side of, of my family. Um, what couch do I own? We have two couches. We have one here at the studio. It's by a company called Rove Concept. Really like them. I have no affiliation with them whatsoever. And then, uh, another company called Bo Concept that I use my couch at home. I'll put a, actually Tomcat, we'll put a picture up here on the screen. Savvy D, make sure I send that over to you. And, um, here's a picture of my living room and, and the couch I have after settling or trying to go through a bunch of different couches, sitting on a bunch. And, uh, we went down to, there's a place called Robertson down here in Beverly Hills. I started looking for couches over there and they said, well, what's your budget?

• 44:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I said, I want to keep it around, you know, 1,500 to $2,000. The woman goes, yeah, I don't think this is the store for you. And I really appreciated that. And I said, okay, well, what's your average cost level? The one right here is 25,000. This one's 40,000. I said, oh, you're right. This isn't the store for me. Let me not waste your time or waste my time. And then I started looking around for, obviously I, I've tried things like Ikea or West Elm or Crate and Barrel and, or CB2. And I went to this place called Bo Concept and it really matched the, the aesthetic that I like, the sort of Scandinavian, in fact, they're a Scandinavian company. I haven't always had, just, just full transparency, I haven't always had the best customer service

• 44:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  from Bo Concept, but I really enjoy the couch I have. In fact, it's the second couch I've owned from Bo Concept. The first one I sold because it was wool and I have a wool allergy that I found out after sitting on this couch for a while. But the, uh, the couch I have now is like, it's just ideal for me. I like, it's real firm too. So I like a, a firm couch. The one we have here in the studio is from a company called Rove Concept. Maybe Savvy D can take a picture, uh, and you can see what we use here. And then he asked about the dishes. I didn't know. I, I, I listened to this question, I'm like, you know what? I think they're from Ikea, but I don't know. And so I went into my kitchen and I started flipping plates over and they're from all over the place. They all match because they're all just white dishes.

• 45:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I have some from Crate and Barrel. They're actually from my wife's, they were a wedding gift for her first marriage and she still has them and they're like, yeah, they're perfectly fine. We still use these, these plates from Crate and Barrel. And then I have some Ikea bowls and I'm pretty utilitarian with these things. I like getting things that I can replace when they break, especially if you have kids, you know, they're going to break and they're going to get shattered or chipped. And, and so, yeah, I, I use both of them. And then I also use this company I use here for coffee mugs, not neutral. I always forget the name, but by far my favorite coffee mugs. It's just the, the ergonomics, the way the handle is. And so for me, it's just this balance of aesthetics.

• 46:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I don't really want my dishes to stand out. I want the food on the plate to stand out. I think of the food, it's kind of like when, when Tomcat is starting with a blank canvas, you don't want the canvas to draw the attention. You want whatever you're going to put on the canvas to, to draw the attention.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  You want your dishes to be like Michael B. Jordan. Good acting, like good acting, right? Just focus on the character, not the mustache, how good he looks.

• 46:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't want to get caught up on, on the biceps on my plate.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  But, by the way, uh, what's the company that, uh, don't worry, I won't drag it on. What's the company that, that has the bad customer service?

• 46:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Uh, not always great customer service from Bo Concept. Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  Bo Concept, here you go, right here. This is for free, guys. The couches are so good that even though they treat you like shismit, you still want to relax and sit. That's for free. Y'all ain't even got to send me a check for that one.

• 47:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I have no relationship with any of these companies, by the way, but that is what I use at home. For anyone else, I'll say what would Josh own question or a listener tip for the show? We'd love to hear from you. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or you can use our new call.show widget that we just started using. Jeff put together this little widget. You can go right to call.show/theminimalists and right there, you don't have to do anything. You don't have to send us anything, record a message right there on the website, right from your browser, from your phone, from your computer, wherever. Just start talking and, uh, we'll feature your voice on a future episode. Up next, page two and page three, but first a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 47:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Whoa. All right, y'all. That is the first 33% of episode 550. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two hour maximal experience, which includes answers to a bunch more questions like Moni wonders, when it's time to replace a well-used everyday item without wasting money or depriving herself? And Jason is preparing for a six-month backpacking trip and wonders how to pack less. All that, plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the minimalist private podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes wherever you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, et cetera, et cetera.

• 48:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Plus you're getting access to all of our podcast archives, all the way back to 2015. We started in that little closet at the, uh, University of Montana. Check out all those archives, all the way back to the first episode. That is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff and Dave, Tomcat on the Couch, shout out to her for joining us today. Check out those embodiment sessions, Tomcatatelier.com. One more time, Professor Sean is here, Savvy D and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields Millburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this.

• 49:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Love people and use things.

• 49:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.