547 | Procrastination

The Minimalist speak with author Jon Acuff about whether procrastination is a type of hoarding, the difference between rest and hesitation, small actions that break the procrastination cycle, a popular decluttering rule that backfired on one of our listeners, and more! Discussed in this episode: What is "strategic apathy?" (2:06) Is procrastination just another form of hoarding? (6:23) Why do so many of us wait for permission that no one is ever going to give us? (11:05) What's the difference between rest and hesitation? (20:53) What's the smallest action someone can take today that genuinely interrupts the procrastination cycle? (23:33) Right Here, Right Now: Joshua is going on a solo tour. (28:00) Listener Tip: Is buying items in bulk ever a sneaky form of procrastination? (31:12) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist Joshua Fields Millburn here. TK Coleman over there.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Hey, hey, hey.

• 0:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Today, we are joined by a New York Times bestselling author of 11 books, including his newest book, Procrastination Proof. And from what I hear, he's also a queso connoisseur. Please welcome to the show our new friend, John Acuff, is here.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, thanks, guys.

• 1:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Queso, huh?

• 1:03Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Usually, the show's dairy free, but we'll make an exception today.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  It's extra dairy. It's an extra dairy episode. There's been a lot of people waiting for that.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  But there are non-dairy quesos.

• 1:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, that's fair.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  My wife and I were at a lavender festival, and there was someone there who had a vegan queso. And it was actually pretty good.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  I can't believe that for a second. You're about to sell me on lavender queso? John, if you crush the flowers enough, you can barely tell it's not real. No, you can tell. The mouthfeel gives it away, dude. Let's start this episode with honesty. I know you guys don't take ads, but I feel like TK might be in lavender queso's pocket. I'm getting real sketchy out.

• 1:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Big queso over here. We're coming up on this episode. We're talking about whether procrastination is a type of hoarding, the difference between rest and hesitation, small actions to break the procrastination cycle, and much, much more. Also, on page three, we'll discuss a popular decluttering rule that backfired on one of our listeners. Before we get to our callers, here's something to chew on. John, you recently tweeted, "Every successful person I've ever met practices strategic apathy." I'm intrigued by that phrase, strategic. Apathy. What did you mean?

• 2:21Speaker 03

  I meant, I don't care that the Chicago Bears are moving to Indiana. Cause I don't live in Chicago. I don't live in Indiana. I don't pay taxes in either of those places. The entire internet is geared at getting you engaged in content. And a lot of the ways they engage you is with anger and upset. And so when I over care about the things that matter to me, which is a form of minimalism. And I strategically have apathy about things like, is Kaitlyn Clark getting enough playing time? Like that, that very rarely changes my day. If I, my kids never go, Dad, did you get Kaitlyn Clark's minutes today? I'm like, oh man, I know. We should talk about those today as a father and a family.

• 3:01Speaker 03

  Like, so really being apathetic in the right ways on the right things and then over caring about the right things too. So strategic apathy to me is a pushback against the world's desire to stir you up on things that probably ultimately don't matter.

• 3:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It seems to me like that can also be a type of procrastination in a different sense where I'm looking for something to be outraged by. I'm seeking recreational outrage. And in doing so, I'm actually putting off the things that are more important to me.

• 3:31Speaker 03

  A hundred percent. You're a writer. I'm, I'm sure there's been times when you're underwriting, you're not writing enough. And, and then that energy goes somewhere that's not useful. And so like my wife one day said to me, it's hard to live with a writer who's not writing. And I think that's true of, it's hard to live with a plumber who's not plumbing. It's hard to live with a baker who's not baking. And I think that a lot of the internet, when you see somebody really angry, I mourn the books that aren't getting written. I mourn the paintings that aren't getting painted or the businesses that aren't getting started. Because their only outlet for their expression of passion is 17 comments deep on a Instagram thread. And you go, oh man, you could, if we could, if we could turn that into something productive, like the things you could do. And you'd feel so much better.

• 4:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. You'd feel better because you're actually creating as opposed to simply consuming.

• 4:20Speaker 03

  You're, you only have three, three possibilities on the internet. You create, you criticize, you cheer. And the create one's the hardest one because you put yourself out there. Like, people said to me, like, well, I want to write a book, but I'll get criticized. And I agree, nobody wrote a one star review of me when I was a copywriter for Home Depot. Nobody on the internet was like, John is terrible at sitting in his cubicle. He doesn't understand rug headlines. But the minute you write a book, you get, you open yourself to criticism. So the create is hard, it is. But man, that's where so much of the joy is. The criticism's easy. That's the easiest one. And then the cheer to me is, there's a lot of fun there, too. Like, the idea of you pop in and encourage somebody else. And so for me, I'm always going, okay, let me make sure I'm picking the right two.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  Like, I want to create and cheer, create and cheer. The other one is really, really easy, but it really, really empties you.

• 5:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it's hard to do well. There is creative criticism. I think of A. O. Scott or John Carmonica. They're professional critics and they write about pop culture or music or movies. And there's something beautiful about that, but it's beautiful because of the creative process.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  There's a craft to that.

• 5:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Like, you know, no one would argue that most of the criticism online has a craft element. It has an emotional element, but you go, I don't know if they really thought about, like, they didn't work on that, they didn't structure that, they reacted to that. And so for me, I'm always going, okay, how do I create and cheer? And where, you know, where am I overreacting to something? And maybe I'm using some creativity that belongs in a better spot.

• 5:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. Well, since we have John here today, we curated, Savvy D. over here curated some questions about procrastination. We'll be talking about that and so much more. We're going to pull you into our world today. So we'll start with our callers. If you'd like to join the program, it's 406-219-7839. Or you can email a voice memo right from your phone to [email protected]. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber so we can prioritize your message. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement free because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Yes, indeed. Our first question today is from Jake.

• 6:28Speaker 04

  Hey there, y'all. This is Jake. I'm calling from Milwaukee. Do you guys think procrastination is just another form of hoarding? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thank you so much.

• 6:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Maybe we start by talking about what procrastination is and why you wrote this book.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, so my definition is really simple. Procrastination is when your actions don't match your intentions. When there's a huge gap between who you say you want to be and who you are. That's why I didn't have to change my ideas to come into this spot. I couldn't wait to get into this spot because so much of what you write about and what you guys talk about is, okay, are you really focusing on what matters? It's not that you say, "Don't own anything." I love your reaction videos where it's like, somebody online and like, "This person owns nine things and one of them's a cat." And it's like this idea of like, "You can't have everything as a mentalist." And you go, "No, no, no, no. You should have the right things that actually give you the right joy." So that's my definition, is when your actions don't match your intentions.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  And the reverse of that, kind of, my opposite of procrastination isn't productivity. Like, what a boring solution that would be, like, just doing more. Mine is a remarkable life, and in my opinion, a remarkable life is when your intentions match your actions. When the Venn diagram of who you say you want to be and who you actually are is like a solar eclipse. That's where life is really fun.

• 7:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I often think of satisfaction as a sort of birth when your short-term actions align with your long-term values, who you want to be or who you aspire to be. And anything else is a type of clutter. TK, it's interesting, though, because when you look at John's definition here, no one aspires to hoard, and yet it often happens. And I think a lot of that does, I mean, sometimes it's a mental illness. If you're a stage-five hoarder, you're on the continuum. And there's a mental illness here. And that's not from a place of judgment. That's from a place of understanding. But of course, that stage-five hoarding didn't happen overnight. Usually it happens over many decades of procrastination. Holding on when you know you want to let go, but you're not willing to do the work to figure out

• 8:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  what is worth continuing to hold on to and what is worth letting go. And so TK, when I think about the hoarding as procrastination, I think that, yeah, I guess it is. I never thought about it in these terms, but it seems to me that it probably is.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's a pretty cool way to think about it because you could conceive of procrastination as a form of possibility hoarding. The very act of creating requires you to collapse all of these possibilities under action. So if I'm gonna write a novel, it could be horror, it could be adventure, it could be comedy, it could be any of these things. But the moment I start writing, there are some definite things that it is not. I have to lift it up out of this nebulous sea of could be anything and choose something specific. Every time you have a song idea or a character idea, you have a few different ways you can take it. Even in this conversation, right? You may ask a question, I may have a few things I wanna say, but the moment I start

• 9:31Speaker 02

  talking, I'm kinda committed to a path, and that means I've gotta let go of these other possibilities for who this character could have been, for the direction which the story would have gone. And that's why when it comes to creativity, usually the most difficult part is starting, but the second most difficult part is finishing. Giving yourself permission to stop and say, "It is enough, even though I could do more, even though I could say more." And so the perhaps one solution to procrastination is taking a look at the possibilities you think you can't live without. The possibilities that you're not willing to let go of, and saying yes to specificity, because that specificity is what's gonna make your story and your life real.

• 10:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, John, hoarding is hyper-inspecific in some way, unspecific. Like, it's not, I actually sold this AI-generated image of a hoarder's house once, and I thought it was the perfect metaphor, because at first, it just looked like a hoarder's house. But then you realize, oh, I can't pick out any one specific item here. It lacks specificity. And it's because we didn't make the decision to begin to let go, but then when we begin to let go, the other problem that we often have is Spartanism, which is the other side of hoarding. It's also on the OCD continuum, where you can't hold on to anything. In a way, I guess that could also be a form of procrastination, is I'm not willing to

• 10:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  do the Hard work to decide what adds to my life and what doesn't. So I'm just going to shun everything or I'm going to hold on to everything. Now, John, you've said that permission is the cure for procrastination. And so I think a lot of us wait for permission from other people. It could be friends, family members, bosses, whoever it is, right? Their external permission. And first off, why do we do that? And is there a way to break that cycle?

• 11:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think part of the reason we do it is it's so well practiced. You already mentioned like we were talking about our kids before about school and different things. And I think we're taught to wait for permission. And that word when we were kids was really important. A permission slip was a passport. Like it allowed you to join the soccer team and go on the field trip. And then, and any great story, if you study great stories, there's always an element of permission. Like in Lord of the Rings, Gandalf gave it to Frodo. You have permission to be more than a hobbit. And the Matrix, you know, think about Neo, you know, he gets, he gets that offer like here. Morpheus goes, take the red pill, take the blue pill. Cinderella, the fairy godmother says you have permission to be more than you are.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  So I think we see it in a lot of stories, but we forget that we get to give it to ourselves. And so we wait on it. And what was interesting, we did a study with 3,000 people. There's this PhD named Mike Peaslee who helps me. We asked 3,000 people, do you feel like you're living up to your full potential? And 96% said no. And the crazier stat was 50% of them said 50% of themselves is left on the table. And so half of your listeners are walking around with half-lived lives. Like no wonder people are grumpy on X. Like no one, like imagine if you started your Christmas morning and only opened half your presents. And neighbors and friends are going, you get to open those. And so I think anyone in a, anyone in a healthy marriage has had the experience where your spouse sees you better than you see you.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  And they wish you could see you the way they saw you. And so like they're trying to give you permission. They're going like, no, you're capable of that. And if you can tap into this self-permission and as a leader, give it to your people. Like, but sometimes, let's just take leadership for a second. I worked with a company. I do about fifty to sixty corporate events a year, speaking events.

• 13:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wow.

• 13:12Speaker 03

  And they said the last manager was really micromanaging and had a really strong fist kind of in everything. And he's gone, we got rid of him, but now everybody's holding back. And I'm trying to figure out how to give them permission to dream again or to risk again. And so it's a word we don't say as an adult, but I think it's a really important word to add to the conversation of what it means to be an adult.

• 13:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, TK, I'm thinking about this desire for permission. It's easier if someone, I think society is sort of imbued with this desire for permission. We use words like should or supposed to without ever quantify should according to whom or who says I'm supposed to do it this way. But in a way, that's like, that's the permission. Someone else said you're supposed to do it this way. And so this is, this is giving me permission to do it that way, to follow some sort of template. And what's fascinating to me, especially when it comes to things like clutter in your home, clutter is just anything that gets in the way, right? Well, by definition, it's a type of procrastination. If it gets in the way and I'm unwilling to do anything about it,

• 14:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  then it is going to continue to mount. And the more that it mounts, the more it becomes a problem. One piece of clutter in your home today isn't that big of a problem. But as you protract the timeline, a year, a decade or multiple decades, you realize that, oh, I'm holding on to all this stuff because I was waiting for permission to do something with it.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  You know, permission is interesting in terms of its relationship to procrastination. I once heard a consultant say that the reason you hire a consultant is so that if the solution doesn't work, you get to say, well, we brought a consultant in and we all agreed with him. Right? Sometimes what we're looking for with permission is permission to fail. The permission to say, well, I did this particular thing. It didn't work, but you agree with me that it was a good idea. And so much of leadership is about giving yourself permission to succeed and saying, I think it's a good idea. I know you guys are nervous and afraid, but. But I really think it's gonna work and I'm willing to sacrifice some of my credibility if it doesn't. You can give me a hard time if it doesn't work, but I think this is gonna work.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  That's a lot scarier, right? But the permission to fail is a good thing. And if we don't give ourselves permission to fail, the permission to say it's all right for me to make a mistake. It's all right for me to be unhappy with the result. It's all right for me to think this is gonna be an amazing decision. And then when I get feedback from my circumstances, say, yeah, I was wrong. I don't like it anymore. And when you give yourself that kind of permission, it makes it easier for you to take a risk because you're not building up these powerful myths that say, I must be wedded to this particular path. And you're able to take your decisions and yourself a lot more lightly. I like to hear from you, John, if you think that this idea of permission to fail, if you think that can actually be a good thing.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  And if there are some practical ways we can give that to ourselves so that we're not psyching ourselves out of simple decisions.

• 16:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, for me, I always tell people, let's audition your goal. I think one of the reasons that New Year's resolutions fail is we try to do something for a year we haven't done for a day. So that's like marrying somebody you met at speed dating. So we go, hey, for the next year, I'm going to do this thing. And you go, have you done it for a week? And you go, no, no, no, but I'm committing to a year. And it just falls apart. I mean, Strava, you know, one of the world's largest fitness tracking apps did a study on when people quit their goals. And the number one drop off day, I think they had like 31 million points of athletic data was the second Friday in January. They call it quitters day because people in December go, I'm gonna buy a bike and I'm gonna ride all year versus going, no, why don't I borrow a bike?

• 16:59Speaker 03

  Like for me, if you said like, what's a minimalist decision I made, like getting rid of my road bike? I got excited because there was guys in my neighborhood riding. I was like, I need a road bike and I should have borrowed one from a friend. And like, just do I like it? Do an audition, a three month audition even. But instead I went to the store and I was like, no, I need carbon fiber, obviously, everything like I'm gonna, this has gotta be lightweight. I bought it, I hated it. I just really don't like a sport where getting hit by a car is part of it. Like if you meet people who ride road Bikes, they tell you about getting hit by a car casually. You go, yeah, I got hit by a car the other day like, oh, Prius, right in the ribs. I'm like, that's terrible, bro. Like, that is, so I buy this expensive bike. I hang it as a monument to consumption on my garage wall.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  It shames me every time I go buy it because I did the goal the wrong way. So for me, part of that permission to risk is to go, I'm gonna give myself a one week, a one month flyer on this thing. I'm gonna take some notes, see if I like it. And then if I do, I'm gonna double down. Like, I'm gonna try to write the book. Like, for me, where our kind of ideas overlap, there's so many ways. But one of them is that sense of dream hoarding. You talked about permission to choose. Even permission to choose is massive. I used to blow it. I teach people how to do their goals for, you know, for years and years. And I used to blow it because the first thing I'd do is go, let's get a blank piece of paper and write down all your dreams. And they already had too many dreams. Anybody who listens to my stuff, reads my books, has too many dreams already. And I'd go, let's make you feel even more overwhelmed.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  And they'd write down like 500 things and I'd go, good luck. And so now I teach them how to prioritize and how to pick, not how to, how to dream, you know, a thousand different things because they feel overwhelmed. So I think part of it is permission to risk, permission to try, but permission to experiment, permission to audition versus like get Henna before a tattoo. If you have a dream, go get Henna for a month and then go like, yeah, I'm ready. I do want that tiger across my forehead, whatever. Like, don't, you don't have to go right from not doing it to a permanent tattoo.

• 19:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I have, uh, yeah, I'm thinking about, last week we were talking about the sauna that I have at home. Because someone called in, they're asking, we do the segment sometimes called What Would Josh Own?

• 19:11Speaker 03

  That's a great segment.

• 19:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And, but what I often try to do is try to talk people out of the things that I own in a way, because I also got this idea from Jeff, who does a lot of the web development, brand management for the minimalist. And he's like, if you ever did ads, like, wouldn't it be interesting to do an anti-ad? Like, this episode is brought to you by Hanes. And let me tell you five reasons you don't need a new T-shirt. But not like saying, but then get a Hanes shirt. No, no. Here are five reasons that you don't need a T-shirt. That's it. Right? And I try to kind of do the same thing with, like, we were talking about the sauna. And it wasn't to say you don't need a sauna necessarily. I don't know what you need. But I wouldn't just go make a giant purchase like that. Like, go to your local gym or YMCA.

• 19:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Go to a friend's house. Figure out whether or not it's part of the routine that you want before you go spend some money on something like that. Because what happens is we spend all of this money on things that are aspirational purchases. That's what I call them. Because I aspire to be the type of person who rides that bike every day. I aspire to be the person who gets in the sun. I aspire to do this or that. And so many of our purchases make us miserable because they show us that we're not living up to the person that we aspire to be. And it may not even be the person that I said I wanted to be. It was a person that society handed to me and said, well, this is what I'm supposed to do. And I think after a while, after you've accumulated enough, John, what happens is we start to feel exhausted. You go into the average home, and it's not a stage five hoarder's home, but there's

• 20:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  light clutter in two or more rooms. That's a stage one hoarder. And you realize like, oh, yeah, we're all somewhere on that continuum. Okay, I look around the house and I'd like to do something about it, but I'm freaking exhausted. And I feel like I need some rest right now. And I'm wondering, maybe you could help illustrate what's the difference between rest and that hesitation, or rest and procrastination?

• 21:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, rest is intentional. Procrastination isn't. So if I choose to rest, I'm choosing to do that. I'm being intentional. I've got, you know, discipline probably in the mix. And I'm saying, okay, I want to take this breath, and here's what it's going to look like, and here's what I'm going to do. Procrastination is the lack of a decision. Like, you're always just putting off the decision to another day. So rest to me is you've made a decision and you're being deliberate. Procrastination is you've delayed it. So that, to me, is the first, the first sign. And I think that's what's so fascinating to me about what you guys do. I look at the content you guys create and feel like you got to somewhere that takes most people 75 years. I think if we're honest, most people that hit their

• 21:46Speaker 03

  70s go And this thing didn't matter. Oh, this thing I chased didn't matter. And that can be, that can be work, that can be money, that can be stuff. You guys got to it in your late twenties, you got there early. And that's what's really fun, because now you're like Paul Revere, you sounded the alarm early. And you're like, hey, I didn't have to wait till I was 70 and look back. I had in my late twenties, in my early thirties. And now you're giving people permission. Like, I look at your tree, the tree of minimalism, and I go, man, Joshua Becker, like, gave you guys permission. Colin Wright gave you guys permission. And now you're giving so many other people permission. And then listeners will realize, oh, I have permission to not do that. I can give myself that permission. So for me, that's what's really fun about this conversation.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  And yeah, rest, though, is ultimately about, I made a decision to rest. I didn't need a breakdown to rest. Like you, like, the, it's such an easier experience to change your life without hitting rock bottom. Like, and you have permission to do that.

• 22:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Wherever you are, right? And you don't have to have a rock bottom moment. Like, you have permission to just one day go, this isn't working for me. I'm gonna question the things I've been taught. I'm gonna question the things I've accepted. Over time, I'm gonna do a 21 day, whatever, you know, like, similar to you, but like, you have permission to do that. That can be rest, that can be, you know, decluttering, it can be anything. But I, that's why, again, I was so excited to have this conversation, because I could see kind of the tree of permission throughout this entire space.

• 23:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, me too. And I, it's funny, because I've often thought about procrastination in one way, but never really attached it to clutter. So let's get practical for a moment. I know Jake called in here, and he wants to know, you know, whether procrastination is another form of hoarding. And we've decided, yes, it, it, it is, or the other way around. Hoarding is a form of procrastination, right? So is there a small action that your average listener can, who's listening to this right now, can, can take today that, that will genuinely interrupt whatever procrastination cycle they're on with respect to the clutter in their home?

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'd say I love finding the first 15. Like, because people go from not doing anything to think, you know, have to change their whole life. Like, I like to say, people bounce from the comfort zone to the chaos zone. They're not doing anything, and then they ricocheted the other side. And they go, I'm changing everything and they buy all the supplies and they're like, I'm decluttering down to 10 items. The reason we have the phrase yo-yo diet in our country is that people yo-yo back and forth between those two extremes and in the middle to me is, is the best place to live. And so I would just say find 15 minutes, do it seven days in a row. And when people automatically people go, well, I'm too busy. And I always say, well, like, let's open up your screen time. Just find your greediest, hungriest app and take 15 minutes back. Like I, one day I did that and I spent 13 hours on Instagram in the previous week.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  And here's the crazy part, they didn't pay me anything. Those are all volunteer hours. Not only did they not pay me, I was getting sold things the entire time. And so we all have 15 minutes. And so then again, like you go, okay, I can try this for 15 minutes and just you and a blank piece of paper and a pen or whatever, you know, a walk, however you process. Spend 15 minutes over the next seven days on what does a decluttering journey look like to me? Or what does a writing journey look like to me? Like it might be, you need to declutter some goals you've carried for a long time. I meet people all the time and go, I've wanted to write a book for 22 years. And I, and I kind of question, do they really want to? Or do they think they just have to? Because maybe that's an old goal they're carrying around and they'd feel more freedom if they said, you know what, I really don't want to write a book and that's okay.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Go do a different thing like, but sometimes I think 15 minutes a day for seven days can work wonders to start you on this journey.

• 25:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, you've said in the past, one of my favorite quotes from you is that dreams don't come true, decisions do. And I think that

• 25:28Speaker 03

  That's great.

• 25:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There, there's an echo here from what, what John is saying is that when he sat someone down and said, here's your one piece of paper, write down 500 goals, a thousand goals, a million goals. These are all dreams, they're ideas, but they aren't a decision to do anything with that dream. And so in a way, I think that dreaming can also be a form of procrastination.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  It's interesting, so one of my favorite lyrics is Finding Neverland, jazz song by Kurt Allen, where he says, "My friends, every day we sit in our everyday chair. We drink from the everyday cup. We go to our everyday work, eating the everyday meal, but we never allow ourselves to go into the extraordinary places in our hearts and our minds. I ask you, my friends, how do you think a book is written? How do you think a song is born? How do you think the world gets started? If a little daydreaming is dangerous, the cure for it is not to dream less, but to dream more, to dream all the time." These lyrics identify the problem not being that we dream too much, but that we dream too little, that we don't dream often enough. To be so immersed in the dream

• 26:40Speaker 02

  that your life becomes an extension and an expression of that. And I think the way that you get there is exactly what John said, by creating these small little pockets of space where you are free to experiment, free to explore. Because it is in the doing of that that you begin to experience the magic of momentum. You experience the decisions making themselves for themselves. The things that you have a habit of doing, it's almost like they're just deciding themselves. You're not thinking about it. You're not really making yourself use the bathroom, making yourself brush your teeth, making yourself drink a glass of water, making yourself grab the coffee in the morning. It's doing itself. It's an extension of your life, right? Because there isn't this grandiose commitment. So my version of asking that question is to simply say,

• 27:25Speaker 02

  "What am I capable of doing? What am I willing to do on my absolute worst day of the week?" And that's not just some kind of heuristic, because you'll actually get your worst day of the week as soon as you start pursuing that goal. Your first day is gonna be the worst day of the week. And you need something that allows you to say, "I don't need to do 30 minutes. 15 is good. 5 is good. Walking around the block is good." And you just do that, and it becomes a part of your life.

• 27:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. We've got a lot more callers to talk to here, a bunch more questions from our listeners. But first, real quick for our Right Here, Right Now segment, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. Actually, I've got two things. Jake, let me send you a copy of this. This is very, very simple. It is the new book that I put together. TK and I originally recorded this just as an audiobook. And several people were asking like, how do I get a printed version of this? We put an ebook that was out there as well. And so we had Dave and Sean put together this print version. It's 69 pages, fits right in your back pocket. It's 12 Rules for a Simpler Home. And since Jake was talking about hoarding, when I think about applying these rules, the thing about this is there's nothing super radical about this.

• 28:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's like, let me go to one real quick. Set the Stage Rule. This one is literally taking 10 minutes a day. And so what happens though, if we don't take those 10 minutes, then the house becomes a nightmare because the clutter tends to accumulate. And then there are other rules in here like the Didn't Know Rule. We're actually going to talk about the Didn't Know Rule a bit on page three. It didn't work for someone, but she's actually glad that it didn't work for her, right? And then we have things like the Wednesday Rule, one of my favorites. Am I going to be happy about this decision next Wednesday? And you can apply that to like, if I'm eating too much queso with my nachos.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  Are my pants going to be happy about this decision?

• 29:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right. Am I going to look at this and be like, oh, you know what? My future self next Wednesday is not going to be glad I made this decision. Or it might be that, yeah, my future self next Wednesday is going to be delighted that I spent 10 minutes decluttering tonight so I don't have to spend two hours on it this weekend. So we put together this print version. You can find it on Amazon. We'll put a link to it in the show notes as well. Very, very simple. 12 Tools for a Simpler Life and a Simpler Home. Also, some exciting news. Next week, I'm going to announce a handful of solo tour stops throughout North America in cities that I have not been to in a while. I'll tell you why next week, but TK is working on a separate solo project.

• 29:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He's got a new show that's coming out. We're going to talk about that next week as well when it does come out. It's called One Question. We'll put a link to it in the show notes now if you want to subscribe to it ahead of time. So he's working on that. Ryan Agadeem has just opened a new restaurant. I was like, I gotta figure out something that I want to do solo here.

• 30:12Speaker 03

  You need a horse or something.

• 30:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Maybe a carbon fiber bike. You know anyone who's got one?

• 30:17Speaker 03

  I have one, yes. Very lightly used.

• 30:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love getting hit by cars. It's my favorite.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  I'm putting in my vote for stand-up comedy, man.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 30:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, so the show that I've been planning was originally a book that didn't work out as a book. And it works as a very funny stage show, and there's a lot of humor in it. And so I've been playing around with the humor a lot. And so I'm going to announce a handful of cities this week. Make sure you're on our simple newsletter. It's free, no ads, no spam, no junk, no noise. But every week we start your week off with a dose of simplicity with the simple newsletter over at theminimalists.com. And so I'm announcing the first handful of cities. If those go well, and we can expand it to other cities as well. I hope to see you there once we hit the road. But once I hit the road, and I'll have the details for you next week. Subscribe to the simple newsletter, and we'll send those out to you first.

• 31:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, before we move on to page two, John, here's a quick minimalist tip from Valerie.

• 31:17Speaker 05

  Hi, my name is Valerie, and I'm from Phoenixville, Pennsylvania. I've been a Patreon for a long time, before TK even came on board. So I'm not even sure how long. But anyway, I wanted to give a tip regarding the episode 534, The Pantry. Around my way, we have a store called Kimberton Whole Foods that, not to, I'm not trying to advertise or anything, but they sell bulk spices. So when there's a spice that I don't use often, I will just go there and buy like one or two ounces. And it saves me money and space, and I feel better for not wasting something that I'm not going to use a lot of.

• 32:02Speaker 05

  And so I hope this helps others and helps you guys. Maybe you have someplace around you that sells bulk items, and that's a good way to go.

• 32:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, John, this is one I think we have to be careful with. Valerie, thank you so much for that insightful comment. I agree with you. Like, the way that she's buying bulk is actually buying less through buying bulk. And I'm not against buying bulk. I would say we all buy bulk. I don't buy my toilet paper one square at a time.

• 32:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, that'd be weird. Be so exhausting. Like, in France, you're riding a little bike and you've got a baguette and one square of toilet paper. That's a weird look, dude.

• 32:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But like, I also don't have a Costco membership, and I'm not against them, but I just don't have the space for a pallet of toilet paper either.

• 32:47Speaker 03

  A pallet.

• 32:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so there's, there's like this middle ground. And for me, it's, I know we have space for about 12 rolls of toilet paper, so I buy 12 rolls of toilet paper at a time, and that works.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Do you stick your baguette inside the roll?

• 32:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's how he carries them.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Or do you wrap an individual sheet around the baguette?

• 33:02Speaker 03

  That's how he carries them. It's like a big...

• 33:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In the bathroom, actually, it's wrapped around a baguette.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Wow, that's so fancy. This is the fanciest show I've been on.

• 33:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Once we get to the end, like, you have a little treat there.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  This is delicious.

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Bathroom bread, delicious.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Trust me, fancy ain't the word for this.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  For bathroom bread? That's not fancy?

• 33:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It may, her, her comment, I totally agree with where she's going with this, because, yeah, I'm buying the appropriate amount for me. And sometimes that's buying more, sometimes it's buying less. And I'm wondering, from a procrastination standpoint, is buying bulk items ever a sneaky form of procrastination?

• 33:39Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I think it's, so much of this is being tuned into who you are and how you work. So like, for a year, last year, in 2025, I kept what I call an owner's manual. I feel like, when I was young, I was the only adult who didn't get a how to be an adult manual. And if somebody should have a how to be John Acuff manual, it should be me. So for a solid year, I had a Google Doc, and anytime something went well, I wrote it down, because I wanted to practice self-awareness, because self-awareness is a superpower.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Give me an example. That's fascinating.

• 34:07Speaker 03

  So two things, like, it was big or small. So small things would be like, hey, at the Nashville airport, don't go to the far-left TSA, that's where all the flight attendants come, and like, 19 people will cut you. So you get more stress. So like, go to the second one, small thing. Big thing would be like, don't bring... Up a serious piece of conversation with your wife right before you go to bed. I was doing this terrible thing in my marriage where I would offload stress to her right before bed. So like we'd be laying in bed, I'd be like, hey, we gotta talk about the taxes tomorrow. Good night. And I'd roll over, sleep like a baby. She's like, bing. So now we have this soundtrack in our house. I wrote this book called Soundtrack about the soundtracks we listen to internally. And one of our soundtracks is, that's a coffee conversation. Meaning I'd love to talk about that at nine AM when I'm at my best.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  I don't want to talk about it right now, but I'd love to talk about it when I'm at my best. So I wrote that down. And so I ended up with like 340 things that helped me be better. So what I would say to her, like if she was keeping an owner's manual, she would write down, hey, remember you don't need 80 ounces of saffron. First of all, you have to be like very rich for saffron. I just named the most expensive spice. She's adding a little color.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  But you don't need that. Remember the next time you do that, like you can just go buy two ounces. They'll sell it to you in one ounce. So I would just say that it's what you said. For some people, the bulk is the best thing because then they don't have to think about it for three months. And that brain space goes somewhere else more creative. But for some people, it's no, I like to buy it two ounces at a time when I need it. So I just think if you keep an owner's manual for you, it, life only gets better and better and better. I'm in my 50s now and I liked my 30s more than my 20s. And I like my 40s more than my 30s. I think my 60s are going to be awesome. So if you keep learning about yourself, you keep being intentional and you get to enjoy every purchase you own versus the purchases forcing you to buy it.

• 35:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, do you buy anything in bulk that might surprise people? I, I asked because I-

• 36:03Speaker 03

  Bracelets. He's got a lot of bracelets on him now.

• 36:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, you could never, never have too many of those.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  No. I'm above buying things. I would never buy something.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  I make everything I own. I milled the cotton for this shirt.

• 36:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Mother Mary provides.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  That's great. That's great.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  I simply pray and it comes to me.

• 36:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know, funny story about that. So growing up, we grew up really poor and like sometimes we didn't have enough food in the house and my mom would go on these alcoholic benders. And so like, um, but then friends from church would show up with like, and they just put groceries on the porch and she would say that she prayed to Saint Anthony and that's why the, the groceries showed up. And he's the, the patron saint of lost and found, right? And so like, she just kind of found these groceries that are on the porch and it all worked out. So I guess that was the only bulk we had growing up.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Meanwhile, Saint Anthony is always having to explain why he's late with helping people find their lost things. And he's like, man, this one lady keeps asking me for groceries.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  Or like, can Saint Anthony buy name brand cookies? Like I'm, I'm rocking Hydrox over here. A kid would love an Oreo. Cause like I went to V V S, like you get off brand stuff. I get it. Jesus doesn't buy name brand.

• 37:27Speaker 03

  These are plant cookies, not animal cookies.

• 37:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Is there, are there any bulk items that stand out to you? I'm, I'm seeing no in your features.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Well, okay. So what I was going to say is that, um, it's more a product of the space. I love bulk items because I, I just think it's great for convenience. And if I have like a large enough garage or something like that, I might would go bulk on all of my non-perishable goods.

• 37:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, same.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  But, but we're just in a really small space and, and if we tried to buy bulk, we wouldn't be able to fit it anywhere. It's just that tiny. So the, the, the closest I come to the level of bulk I can get away with, and even then my wife be giving me that side eye like, okay, don't buy anymore is coffee. Because, you know, it just comes, you know, in boxes that I can just put in the garage and it's the easiest thing to store. And I can, and I, and I use it up a lot.

• 38:17Speaker 03

  And if you're out, it's a bad day.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 38:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's true. John, is there anything you buy in bulk where you're like, ah, this is my surprise, folks?

• 38:25Speaker 03

  I bought, I'm thinking about getting into pencils.

• 38:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay.

• 38:28Speaker 03

  Like, I'm interviewing a couple of new hobbies in a small way, like tinned fish I'm fascinated by.

• 38:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  Cause I went to Portugal and they had so many different sardines and I was like, maybe I'm a tinned fish guy. So I might develop that as an eccentric hobby. But pencils, I recently bought like 12 pencils and I probably needed a pencil. But in my head, I'm like, I'm gonna be sketching a lot. I'm totally gonna be, I'm gonna be at the Delta Sky Club, like sketching out a vase. And so I bought some, I would say bulk pencils, like bought 12 pencils the other day and I probably only needed one.

• 38:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 38:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. But I don't do that regularly. Like, I'm not every month, I'm like, you're gonna come to my house and you're walking on pencils.

• 39:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  At least not yet.

• 39:07Speaker 03

  Not yet. I'm on my way. This might be, this is a pencil intervention. Is my wife here? She comes out of the back.

• 39:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  She comes in. Our next message is from John's wife.

• 39:16Speaker 03

  You don't need pencils. You're fine with a pen.

• 39:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Professor Sean on the couch here, he is a pen connoisseur. I think he's probably got some high-end mechanical pencils too, but all the fountain pens. And what I find, I really admire that even though I recognize that it's not for me. And I think that's the, the understanding, like, or having a watch collection. I admire people that are into that because I admire the passion behind it.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  I'm trying to get into it, but my wife said, uh, watches are Pokemon for rich guys.

• 39:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh.

• 39:46Speaker 03

  And so that's hard. That took a little bit of the steam out of it. So like now, when I'm like, I don't have a buddy who asks me about a reference number on something. I'm like, oh, he just got a Pikachu. Nice. So, I mean, I'm not above it. Like, I'm curious about it.

• 40:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, I'm, I'm, I actually, I agree with that, but not in a pejorative way. I think, like, someone who's really into Pokemon, if they're super passionate about it, then so be it. Uh, I'm not into watches nor Pokemon, although I don't think it's bad. My, my bulk items are way less sexy than that. It's like, I buy four tubes of Sensodyne every.

• 40:19Speaker 03

  Oh, it's great.

• 40:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, every few months. And that way, we have a rule in my house. And my wife knows this because as we get dangerously low on Ziploc bags or something, I'm like, hey, you know, we don't run out of anything here, right?

• 40:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We don't run out of anything. And Savvy D knows that here as well because here at the studio, that we don't run out of anything. I don't care if we have one, if we have one paper towel left, that's great, as long as we don't run out of anything. And so bulk helps me within reason, but it's also bulk within reason. If I had to go rent a storage locker for my paper towels or for my pencils.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  It's an issue.

• 40:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That'd be a problem.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  But here's the difference for me. I know when I've bought something out of joy and I've bought something out of compulsion.

• 41:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hmm.

• 41:00Speaker 03

  So the pro, like I can tell where I found something I like and I have this part of my brain that goes, and if you like the one thing, 42 would be 42 times better. And then in the middle of it, I'm no longer enjoying it. So I think that's a good minimalist test is like, am I buying this out of joy? Like same with watches. Like I think that if you're booking the next trip while you're still on that current trip, there might be some compulsion there.

• 41:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ooh.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  Versus going, no, I'm present, I'm enjoying it. Like I am present and loving this versus going, where's the next, where's the next, where's the next, where's the next? So for me, I think it's like, I'll give you my favorite definite, like, cause I was thinking about this as I was coming here today about stuff. Like I'll give you my favorite definition of generosity related to stuff. And this one blew me away. I was speaking at an event, it was this big nonprofit event for high-end donors. And I mentioned a 9/11 in my talk, like a Porsche 9/11. And I got off stage and this couple came up to me and they're like-

• 41:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Different than 9/11 I was thinking of.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, Porsche 9/11.

• 41:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You guys hear about Building 7?

• 41:57Speaker 03

  Way half, way half your story. So they come up to me and they go, hey, we have one here. You mentioned it. Like, why don't you just take it for the night and bring it back tomorrow after lunch? And, cause I was in my own town, I was in Franklin.

• 42:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wow.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  And I was like, I can't take your 9/11. And they're like, no, take it, take it, take it. And then the wife said something that defined generosity for me. She said, we share it all the time because if we can't share it, it has too much power over us.

• 42:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ooh.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  And I thought, wow. And so they hand me the ticket for the 9/11. I bring it to the valet at the hotel. He goes, what's the name on the reservation? I don't even know their name. I go, ugh. He goes, ah, it doesn't matter. Top-notch security, by the way. He brings- Around a nine 11 Turbo S. I don't even know how to turn it on. A friend has to come home and be like, bro, it's on the left side. Like you just, I drive home, I'm laughing the entire way. I wake up my wife. I'm like, I haven't bought this. I drive every friend the next morning. It was the time of my life. And it was a great reminder to me of like, oh, the nine 11, the Porsche nine 11, the watch, the whatever the thing is, isn't like, let's not assign morals to it. Like, these people knew, like, no, this is a really fun car to own and we share it because it's really fun to bless people with this experience.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  That's very different from if I get this thing, then I'll know I'm successful. I don't want to buy a fancy watch in order to feel like I've made it. I want to know internally who I already am. Now, I might get the watch later because they're beautiful and I'm interested, whatever, but not as a proof of who I am. That's different to me.

• 43:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I remember back in my corporate days, I wanted this Tag Heuer watch that I eventually bought on credit. So I didn't even use my own money. I'd use my future selves money. I punish my future self. But I also punish myself in a different way. It was like I signed a contract with myself to be unhappy or to be dissatisfied until I acquired the object.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And when, as soon as I acquired it, then I just, what, opened the floodgate and gave myself permission to express the joy that it was already innate in me? And I was like, well, wait a minute. This is, this is backwards. I already had access to the joy. I could still enjoy the watch as a piece of art or as an instrument, as a tool. But I don't need it in order to experience the delight that I have access to 24 hours a day. We got a lot more to talk about, y'all. So, so good. That's the end of page one here. But only the beginning. Yes, only the beginning.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's go. Just getting started.

• 44:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. By the way, if, before we go, before we go to page two, there are several things I want to talk to you about that you sort of touched on there about how procrastination can lead to a cluttered home. I think that's, that's another thing that's worth talking about. Plus, we have so many more questions. If anyone else like Valerie, who has a listener tip for the show, we'd love to hear from you. Just send a voice memo to podcast at theminimalists.com so we can feature your voice on a future episode. Up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 44:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that's the first 33% of episode 547. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two hour, two and a half hour maximal edition with John Acuff, which includes answers to a bunch more questions like, what are the benefits of procrastination? We never talk about the benefits of procrastinating. Also, another caller anxiously wonders why she procrastinates on intimidating tasks by doing other productive things instead. And we'll look at storage lockers as the ultimate form of procrastination. Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Plus you'll gain

• 45:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  access to all of our archives, all the way back to the very first episode. Big thanks to John Acuff for joining us today. Check out his book, Procrastination Proof, also his podcast and a short quiz that he has about procrastination on his website. We'll put links to all of those in the show notes over at theminimalists.com/podcast. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here today with one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works.

• 46:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.