546 | Ask for Help

The Minimalists talk about setting down burdens that exhaust us, why it's so difficult to ask for help, the scientific benefits of infrared saunas, and much more. Discussed in this episode: What happens when the person everyone depends on is the one who falls apart? (4:48) Where do you struggle to ask for help? (26:20) Right Here, Right Now: Very, Very Simple in print, and Clutter Counseling with T. K. Coleman. (40:07) WWJO: What kind of sauna does Joshua have at home? (43:02) Clearlight sauna contact: email [email protected] or call 800-317-5070. Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, The Minimalists, A Meaningful Life with Less. Joshua Fields, Millburn over here, and look who's over there, TK Coleman.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  I love your smile.

• 0:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ah!

• 0:49Speaker 02

  That's a shout out to my homegirl Shanice.

• 0:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  She's on the couch today. A Simple Haven graduate. She was at our retreat this year, and now she's back here in LA, hanging out with us in the studio. Professor Sean's here as well. Savvy D is out skateboarding with Bam Margera, literally.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  Is that right?

• 1:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, he sent me a text that I'm staying at Bam's house right now.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  My first thought was Bam Atabio?

• 1:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, you're staying with...

• 1:18Speaker 02

  You skating with Yanis right now?

• 1:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Shout out to Savvy D. He'll be back with us next week. He's always here in spirit, as is Tom Cat, and of course, Audio Ben and everyone else from the team. Here's something to chew on, TK. Rest is not the reward for carrying the burden. Rest is what allows you to lift it. What can you tell me about this distinction, TK?

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Well, it's kind of like saying, you know, gas is not the reward for driving a car. It's the thing that fuels it. Can you imagine if you looked at your tank and saw it was on empty? And you go, alright. I'll get some gas soon, but let me just, you know, drive a hundred more miles first and then I'll feel better about getting gas. Well, you're not going to make it 100 miles. And when you have to get gas, it's going to be a lot harder to go get it. It's the same way when we treat rest as a reward. Rest is not a reward for doing the work. It is a form of replenishment that gives us strength so that we can be able to do our work with excellence. I think about what the monastics refer to as retreating from the world into

• 2:24Speaker 02

  the interior silence by which the true self is known. When you retreat from the world, you give yourself permission to step back. You discover things about yourself. You orient yourself towards the world properly. You ground yourself and then you can move forward with the work and you can work with power, often doing less and getting more results.

• 2:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I was listening to Dave Chappelle recently. He was, Michelle Obama brought her podcast out to Yellow Springs, Ohio, shut up to Dayton, Ohio. And they just opened this new NPR space. So the radio station in Greater Dayton is in Yellow Springs and they opened this beautiful new facility there. It's the first thing they recorded there was this podcast with Dave Chappelle and Michelle Obama. And one of the things he talked about is he tells his wife, if you ever see me just staring off into the distance, leave me alone because that's when I'm doing my work.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it was like so profound because you could tell that he said, I don't, there's nothing I enjoy more in life than just thinking silently, just looking off in the distance. And I think that's part of what we're talking about with rest. When you talk about the gas tank, that really reminded me of growing up, my brother Jerome, his first car was the old 1980 Oldsmobile Delta 88. It's a boat, right? It was huge, except the gas gauge didn't work. And also there was a hole in the lining in the middle of the gas tank. So you could fill up the tank only halfway and you never knew when it was on E.

• 4:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And isn't that a metaphor for often how we feel like we can't really gauge when do we need rest? And in fact, that's what I want to talk to you a bit about today, actually a lot about that today. Coming up on this episode, we're talking about setting down burdens that exhaust us, why it's so difficult to ask for help, the scientific benefits of infrared saunas, and so much more. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question for the show, we'd love to hear from you, 406-219-7839. That is the phone number to join the program, or you can just email a voice recording right from your phone to [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber when you call, so we can prioritize your message. Shout out to

• 4:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  our patrons. You keep this podcast 100% advertisement free. Our first question today is from Whitney.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  Hello, this is Whitney from Indianapolis, Indiana, a Patreon subscriber. I need your help with something. I, for the sake of the podcast, I'll call, I'll call it the strongman fallacy. In our culture, specifically American culture, we've gotten so used to consumption and abundance. I've noticed a big shift since COVID between givers and takers in society. Instant gratification seems to have brought the mindset that because everything has become so convenient, nothing and no one should be inconvenient. Goods, services, food have all been outsourced to a consumer-driven market. They are no longer expected to be

• 5:37Speaker 03

  given within community. Although I very much appreciate the modern conveniences that we all enjoy and have benefited from them, I've started to notice this is the way people treat others, too. The words "I need help" have become something everyone expects you to outsource. Strong ones, or the givers of society, have become so relied upon, like a grocery store checkout line, people cannot seem to understand that humans are fallible. This leads me to the strongman fallacy. Where should the strong men, or women in my case, turn when it becomes our time to fall? I have experienced both post-traumatic stress

• 6:21Speaker 03

  and post-traumatic growth. And what I have observed is the only meaningful difference between the two. These times, one, I had reliable humans who caught me. This is when I experienced growth. And the other was when humans saw me as a burden instead of at risk. What do you do when you have an abundant spirit and a time of emotional or physical scarcity? Is there ever a healthy time when the strong man or woman needs to collapse into rest? Thanks for your thoughts.

• 6:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, Whitney is always the strong one, right? And I get that. I think you and I have both experienced that in our own lives. But what happens when the person that everyone depends on is the one who's falling apart or falling down?

• 7:17Speaker 02

  First thing I want to say is that phrase collapse into rest really jumped out at me. It's something that by all means, you want to try to avoid. Rest is not something that you want to collapse into. That stirs up the image for me of someone whose body is shutting down because they aren't giving it what it needs. They aren't taking the time to set boundaries and give themselves permission to rest, to relax, to nourish themselves. And if your primary way of resting is when you have to collapse to get there, that's not a good thing. That's an indicator that we might be creating our lives in a way that doesn't support a sustainable path towards health.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Second thing I would say too is I heard this one person say, please don't treat me like I'm a saint because one day I'm going to stumble and fall like any ordinary human being does. And when that moment happens, I need you to look at me with pity and to help me, not to look at me with scandal like, oh, the saint has fallen. I understand being in the situation where you often have to feel like you're the strong one, but that's also a brand that we can build in the eyes of others, perhaps not intentionally, but sometimes just by not challenging what needs to be challenged. If someone walks up to you every day and calls you a billionaire and you smile and

• 8:38Speaker 02

  you laugh, you may not ever say, I'm a billionaire. You may not have ever asked for that, but you're not challenging it, you're not pushing back on it. And I think if you find yourself in a situation where you've got to uphold this brand of being the strong person such that you feel a scandal when you're weak and you're not able to talk about that or get the help that you need, I think that's an indicator that it's time to start changing the way we represent ourselves to other people, even when we are helping them. You know, we can be honest about our weaknesses. Hey, I don't have much, but here's what I can do for you. I don't, I don't have three hours, but I can give you 30 minutes. I don't have $50, but I can give you $5. I don't have an hour of time, but I can, I can, you know, see what I can help you come up with in the next 10 minutes. And, and also, man, hey,

• 9:22Speaker 02

  pray for me too, man. Check on me too, because I really relate to what you're going through. I'm doing good right now. I'm in a good place right now, but I know what it's like to have that struggle. Check on me too. Always market the part of yourself that is vulnerable and that is finite without overdoing it in a way that makes it look like you're attention seeking. I think that's an important thing.

• 9:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But where is the line between woe is me? Because we also have that person who, who is the woe is me person. They're always complaining. They're always in trouble. And it's almost like the boy who cried wolf. I have a couple of family members like this and extended family members where in a way, it's not that I don't trust them, but I, my antenna goes up anytime I get a message from them. And I hate that it goes up because I'm like, what are they looking for? What is the angle here? Because I've been burned by that, that person and giving my attention to them before. So, so where is the line between woe is me and yeah, I need help and, and I am, I'm not infallible.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  So this is not a question for the strong man. This is a question for the, the person that identifies so strongly with weakness that that's the only side of themselves that they ever show? That's what you're asking? How do you cultivate strength in that person?

• 10:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, although that, that person I don't think would identify as. I don't know collapsing into their weakness.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 10:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  They they would identify as the world is out to get me and I am a victim of circumstances.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so let's do some conversational role play and I'll kind of illustrate my approach. I my philosophy here is number one, be willing to accept small wins when dealing with people who need to make big changes. Never put the pressure on yourself to get someone where they need to be overnight or to do all the healing for another person for them. Sometimes it's good enough for you to play a role where you sow a small seed that someone else will water or that will come into fruition one day when you're not around. But you don't have to do all the things for people that need help. You can just have a positive impact. But I want you to play the role of this person that's constantly identifying with weaknesses. And I want to model for you a way with curiosity and without being preachy, how you can sow some seeds of agency while still being empathetic.

• 11:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay, so TK, I gotta tell you, I um, man, I just feel like I can't ever win. Like, no matter what I do, there's always someone who steps in and before I'm even successful interrupts the whole thing.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  That's tough, man. I'm sorry to hear that. Like, is there something recent that happened that's bringing this up right now?

• 12:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I mean, it happens all the time, but but yeah, recently, someone, well, I would just say they took advantage of me. And without going into too much detail, you know, this this person I really trusted, they um, they they forsook our relationship in a way that did me a lot of harm.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm not done, but I just want to offer a little meta level commentary here. I've already achieved one small victory by asking you for an example. You didn't feel defensive about that, like I put you on the spot. It sounds like genuine curiosity, because that's what it is. But I've also challenged you from go to go from the abstract to the specific. And anytime you go from talking about your problems in the abstract to getting specific and concrete about something that happens to you, you're exercising some agency and some intentionality. And this is good for me because I'm trying to get to know you, but it's also good for you because there's a level of ownership you're taking now when you get specific that you weren't quite taking when you were being abstract. But okay, that's the situation. Is that something that um?

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Is that something that like surprised you? Did you see it coming? Were there any red flags?

• 13:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, man, it didn't surprise me. It happens all the freaking time.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I know in general, but with this particular person, they, it, it sounds like it's something that caught you off guard.

• 13:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I guess so. I wasn't expecting it.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why do you think this happens a lot?

• 13:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, I think it's because I'm, you know, I'm the person who's always there for other people. And, um, and then I need them to be there for me and they just, they, they're just not.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you, it's, it almost feels like people are taking advantage of your goodness. Like when, when other people are in need, you see that and it feels good to you to be there for them. But then when you're in a position where you're vulnerable and you need help, the people that you help, they just kind of ghost you.

• 13:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's right. And also it's not even that I need the help, man. It's like, I just get out of my way and don't, don't, don't get in the way.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Okay. Like, what's an example of somebody getting in the way?

• 13:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, so recently I was, you know, I was at work and, and, um, I had this big, you know, project needed to be turned down and all these spreadsheets needed to be done. And, and then the person who I was working on the spreadsheet with, man, they, they just, they just kept adding more and more things onto it. And it made me stay late and didn't even think about the fact I had to stay late and to work to finish the, the spreadsheet that they had added to. If they just hadn't added anything to it, I would have been done by five o'clock. We could have both gotten out of there on time.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, they double your workload.

• 14:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  That, that don't sound fair to me. I'm, I'm just curious, not suggesting that you needed to do this, but did you say anything to him about it?

• 14:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, man, I don't think it would help.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Why is that?

• 14:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because I mean, I've, I've mentioned it before, you know, I made little comments and stuff. They don't really pay attention.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  They just say whatever they need to say to get out of the moment. Then they just go back to doing the same thing.

• 14:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. It's almost like they act like they care, but then the same thing just happens over and over.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  What would be your ideal? Like, what would you like to have happen?

• 15:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Man, I, I don't know. I guess I, I just, I would like for.

• 15:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I would like for these people to stop making my life so difficult.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, and if they stop doing that, what would life look like for you?

• 15:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think it'd just be easier, man. Like, it's like I'm not playing the video game on hard mode anymore.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And what would you do with your life when you felt that ease?

• 15:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Man.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  What would you do differently?

• 15:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I just feel like my life would feel a lot lighter.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  A lot less stressed and a lot less chaotic, you know?

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not like, hey, I would go to Disneyland. I would leave the country. It's just more like, you would just feel less stressed. You would feel more peace. You would feel more joy. You'd still be living the same life, but you'd feel good about it.

• 15:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, but I'd be able to do more with my time, too.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I know that like I'd be able to accomplish more. I don't know exactly what, but I know that like if I free up my time and I'm not feeling all stressed all the time, if I feel calmer and more at peace, I know that I will have the space to be, well, to do the things that I want to do and achieve the things I want to achieve.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  I love that. I'm gonna do one more thing, but victory number two now is you've just spent about like thirty to sixty seconds talking about a positive vision for your life. You clearly don't have a robust vocabulary for talking about a positive vision of your life. Like, you're kind of dealing with a lot of generalities, but I'll take it because you clearly don't do this a lot. I'll take that. Like, we can start with the general, but you're talking about how you want to feel, and that's good. You're talking about it positively. So I'm sowing the seeds of agency. I'm getting you to talk about your life in a way that you don't normally talk because you're always in default and complaining mode, but I didn't shut down the complaining. I'm listening to it, and I'm still asking these questions. Now, here's one question I have for you, getting back into the moment.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  And if you don't have an answer to this, that's okay, but I'm curious if you can see any patterns in these experiences where like you end up holding the short end of the stick, so to speak. Do you see anything that you could learn that could help you make adjustments and do things differently, like maybe protect yourself better or set better boundaries or anything like that?

• 17:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess I could probably communicate better upfront, you know? I think I'll wait till afterward and then I get frustrated by the whole thing.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, what might that look like? By the way, that's a major victory. That's game over victory right there. But just one more question, what might that look like for you?

• 17:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Probably just telling them that I need to be out of here at a certain time, or that I only have so many hours to work on the spreadsheet and I need to do something else with the rest of my day.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that. We can stop here. I just want to say for anyone that's listening who thinks, because this is a very common objection, yeah, that's great, but Randy, he's the type of dude, he's not gonna give me what Josh just gave you. Josh went along with you and gave you some good answers that you could work with. And what I would say is, sometimes, putting a person in a situation where you've given them a good question to think about, and you've presented that question in a non-threatening way, and you allow all the grace and space in the world for them to not have an answer right now, is a greater achievement than we could possibly measure. If you can bring a person to a place of saying, "I don't know, I never thought about that before."

• 18:24Speaker 02

  That's a good question. "I don't know what that might look like." That's awesome!

• 18:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  That means they haven't wrestled with this before. That means no one's probably made them think about that before. And when this conversation's over, at some point, that might come back to them. That's more than enough power. You don't need to be the czar of every individual. You just need to be a seed sower for the values that you believe in, representing in very small ways.

• 18:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know, the thing that I wrote down here before we started recording is, strength isn't the ability to carry everything alone, it's knowing when to set something down.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 19:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Getting back to what Whitney was talking about here, is sometimes, I identify with Whitney in several ways. One is, I often am the guy that people rely on, in my own life. And part of that feels like a burden, but maybe you could talk about how that's also a blessing, TK?

• 19:23Speaker 02

  A blessing to be the one that's helping?

• 19:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, to be the one who's perceived as reliable.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I think every weakness is, is in some way a, a virtue that is mishandled. And I think it's important to appreciate the virtue first. And if you're someone who has a tough time saying no, a tough time putting down boundaries, it's often because deep down inside you really like people and you really want to help them. And you have a deep ability to relate to other people's needs. And you don't want to be torn apart from someone by an inability to help them. And maybe you don't even want to hurt their feelings and we can make fun of that very easily. But that's a good thing, too. We need more human beings who actually care about the way another person feels and who says,

• 20:11Speaker 02

  I gotta say no to this person, but, but I, I, I don't want to wound them by saying no. I mean, that's a beautiful thing, but, but we have to do more than just take care of the other person. We also have to consider our own needs because your ability to take care of other people in a way that is sustainable depends on you nurturing yourself. And I know, I know, I'm privy to the fact that the word self-care has become taboo in the world of self-help philosophy. I'm privy to the fact that there's no faster way to annoy people today than to talk about the virtues of self-care. But the only reason people are so annoyed is because like most cliches, it's such an obvious, undeniable and important truth that we just talk about it so much

• 20:55Speaker 02

  that we get annoyed by the things that are obvious and we crave something that is, that, that is more novel. And of course, every good tool, every good idea can be abused, so can self-care. But for some people, you know, I, when I, when I have conversations about how to say no, every single conversations I, I've ever had, there are always people who step up and they have this really easy time saying no, and they bash the conversation. No is a complete sentence, just say no, it's really simple. And, and the fact of the matter is there are people like that in the universe. There are people who enjoy saying no, there are people who just don't have any difficulty and it's so hard for them to understand conversations like this. You know, they just see it as overly complicated, but the fact of the matter is

• 21:37Speaker 02

  there are wonderful, beautiful, loving, empathetic people in the world who would rather die. Before they made someone else sad or cry before saying no. And even if you prove to them with a logical proof that the other person isn't going to be hurt, it's so hard for them to uncouple from that narrative. And I think we have to handle those cases differently.

• 21:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think there's another side of this too. And I also identify with this and I think this might be where Wendy is. I don't have anyone to really go to for help consistently. She said, the times where I've experienced growth, I have had someone to fall back on.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right? But I don't always have someone to fall back on. And, and you know, I, I personally struggle with this and growing up in the environment I did, I, I often feel like, like 50 Cent did. I pulled this clip that I thought was the perfect way to wrap up Whitney's question here. Can we give this a play, professor?

• 22:31Speaker 04

  I never ever, I never ran from anything because I had nobody to go to.

• 22:37Speaker 04

  I've always had that, where I'm going, home to get me? Ain't nobody there.

• 22:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, right.

• 22:43Speaker 04

  You know what I'm saying? Like, so it's, I've always been in a situation where I'm forced to deal with it myself.

• 22:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm always forced to deal with it myself. Where am I going to run to? Am I going to go home to get me? And that's often how I felt. Now, I, I will tell you, I had a brother that I really looked up to and really he was the guy I went to for, for help and I needed, when I, when there was something that was bigger than me. So even, even then I had, like, I didn't have a dad at home. My mom was basically an absentee mother when we were young. And so I didn't really have anyone to go to. And part of that was figure it out yourself. And to me, that's where the blessing in a lot of this is, is I don't have other people as a crutch all the time, or at least I didn't. And therefore I often had to figure it out myself. And that meant a lot of failures, a lot of stumbling, but that was okay, right? Because that is the place from which I grew.

• 23:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so the, I felt the opposite of Whitney in this experience. The place from which I grew is when I didn't have someone to fall back on. I didn't have a plan B. It was figure this out or it doesn't get figured out.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  You know, I think one small thing you can do if you find yourself in this kind of situation where you don't have anyone to run to, you don't have anybody to help you, you're always the stronger person, is you can sow little seeds that will make it less shocking for other people and less unnatural for you when you get to a point where you have to ask for help. And that is, you can make it a practice to just ask whoever you are around for advice on small, tiny little things, recognizing that you never have to follow their advice. So if you've got a project that you're working on, if you've got something that you're sorting out, and you're completely confident that your way is the best way and the only way, you still can ask someone around you, hey, if you're in my situation,

• 24:27Speaker 02

  what would you do? And people will tell you, and you may find what they say to be useless, you may find that it reinforces what you already believe, you may find that it surprises you by giving you a new angle on something that's very helpful. But whatever the case, there's no real loss in that, and you've made it a little less shocking for you to be the kind of person who is asking for help. When you get around to the point where you need someone, you don't want to be asking them for something big for the first time. It's like having a friend who owns a truck, and you don't talk to that friend for three years, and then when you gotta move, you call up the friend, and you say, can I borrow your truck to move my stuff? Your friend's gonna feel awkward, you're gonna feel awkward,

• 25:12Speaker 02

  it doesn't work. So how about you do something different? You text or call your friend once every week, once every couple of weeks. How are things going, man? Or, hey, I got a job interview tomorrow. Any thoughts on how you would handle this? Any tips? Or, hey, I got a job interview tomorrow. Pray for me. Hey, been feeling kinda sick lately. Just pray for me. Everything will be cool. Just be good. Have somebody thinking about me. Whatever it may be, little, small things that make it easy for people to say, I got your back, or here's how I would think about it. And it kinda helps you ease into the practice of asking for help with bigger things.

• 25:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The key there is the small things part. It's not asking them to help you move every other weekend. It is when you actually do need the help. And also, the other way to think about it is showing up. Person who helps me out a lot, I'm conditioned to want to help them even more. And so where Whitney is right now is she's the helper in her family, in her community. How wonderful. People want to help the helper because of how much you've contributed to their lives as well. Whitney, thank you so much for your question. Before we get back to our callers, TK, let's, let's struggle with the question of the week, which is, where do you struggle to ask for help? Where do you struggle to ask for help? Let's check in with the Patreon

• 26:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  community chat. Gail said, I find asking for help difficult. If I don't already know the person is going to say yes. If there's any doubt in my mind that someone might say no, I won't ask. TK, aren't there benefits to hearing no too?

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Yes, especially if you ask for feedback. I, I think I, I mentioned to you, I don't know if I told you this or not, but I remember back when I was living in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and I went to apply for a job at an Applebee's. There were two Applebee's in Kalamazoo at that time. And I went and I thought I did pretty solid, the interview, and they didn't hire me. They didn't call me back. So I went back and I, and I asked the person, you know, is there anything I could do to improve? And she says, yeah, you had a good interview. Smile more. And that was all she said. And I put the pieces together for myself that she was saying, hey, look, man, if you're going to be serving my customers, you gotta at least look like you're happy to be there and look like you're happy to see them. Whatever it was you gave me in this

• 27:26Speaker 02

  interview, you didn't give that to me, you know? And so I, I took that advice and I drove straight to the Applebee's on the other side of town. And I did an interview and I kid you not, I did everything that I did in the first one. I just answered all the questions like this, like, yeah, so my previous job was like, I use my, I did my LL Kuje, you know, impersonation.

• 27:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're licking your lips.

• 27:47Speaker 02

  My lips to smile like, yeah, girl, you know. So I used to do this right here, you know, and like this. And I got hired right on the spot. Hired right on the spot. And it's one of those examples of how when you get a no, if you commit to learning something from it, you might discover things that make you a better human being and you get better at getting what you want in the future.

• 28:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Jackie said, help rarely feels free. I struggle to ask for help when I perceive people will eventually ask me for something in return.

• 28:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, must help be altruistic to be authentic? Or is transactional help still a worthwhile form of help?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Transactional help is not only a worthwhile form of help, but it's a necessary inevitable form of help. All human interaction cannot possibly be altruistic. There has to be some level of transactional help, even if we do our best to be decent and dignified and diplomatic and kind about it. But sometimes it's as simple as, look, I don't know you. You don't know me. I trust that you're not going to try to murder me. You trust that I'm not going to try to murder you. Can you give me the hat and I give you the money? And we can just be honest about the fact, without being rude to each other, that we don't want to hang out. We don't want this to be any more than this. That's okay.

• 29:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And that's also a form of help, and we don't think about it that way.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  It is a form of help, right? But the important thing is you've got to be honest with yourself and others about when you're doing the transaction. Transactional interaction becomes dangerous when you tell yourself a story that what you're really doing is something else. When you tell yourself it's love and it's transactional, that's dangerous. When you tell yourself it's transactional and it's love, that's dangerous. Both are fine when you can be honest about what it is.

• 29:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And transactions can be authentic, except for when you're talking about, when you're pretending it's love, but it's actually a transaction. That's when the, there's an incongruency there. Well, on the flip side of-

• 29:46Speaker 02

  I wanted to hear what you thought about something real quick. What do you think about the idea of not asking somebody for help? Because you kind of need it, but you're afraid they're going to ask for something back. I thought that was interesting.

• 29:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I mean, what Jackie's saying here is like, there's a fear of rejection, really, is all it is. And I think we all have that fear of rejection to some extent, because once upon a time, through human evolution, being rejected meant you were shunned from the tribe and you didn't have anywhere else to turn. And so that fear of rejection feels amplified. In fact, we reject ourselves in our mind before we even make the ask, as Jackie is saying. Who knows how many people might have said yes? That she automatically said no to them and she didn't- Ask them because she assumed that they might say no. But being in sales for so long, it really got me out of that habit.

• 30:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I learned just it was a numbers game. I was doing cold calling for several years before I started managing retail stores. And this is late 90s, early 80s, and I would have to call and I knew that I it took for every 10 calls, I'm going to get nine no's. Before that, it was like 40 no's for every, every one yes.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Turn it into like a video game, basically.

• 31:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's right. And I would say, oh, look, that's I'm one, I'm one no closer to a yes. And, and when I gamified it that way, it became fun and we would start having competitions. We're standing on the desks calling people. And if you ever saw the movie Boiler Room, it's just like, it's playful. And there's a guy in Boiler Room, one of the clients that he's calling, he says, I think I'll pass. And he goes, I don't see a number on your back. The only people making money from passing have our quarterbacks. And so you're like, you're just playing around with it and it really builds your confidence. So, and what I would say is getting more no's is the best way to build your confidence.

• 31:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But on the flip side of Jackie's comment, I thought this was an interesting observation from Martha. Martha says, the older I get, the more I understand that asking for help builds relationship and trust. In my corporate days, I saw asking for help as a weakness. Now I am more aware of the need for assistance. I'm aging and my adult children like to help me out when they're able. My ego still doesn't like to ask for assistance and yet I know there is connection in the ask. What about you listeners? Where do you struggle to ask for help? Let us know your thoughts in the comments. All right. I got my minimal maxim ready TK. By the way, you can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com/podcast

• 32:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox for free. In the simple newsletter, every Monday, we start your week with a dose of simplicity. No spam, no junk, no ads, no noise, just a quick writing and, and a little bit more of less. You can subscribe to that at theminimalists.com. All right. Give me something pithy TK. Where do you struggle to ask for help?

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Listen, this is the first minimum maximum. I just couldn't come up with anything.

• 33:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, so you need some help?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  But yeah.

• 33:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can't even ask for help there. You see that?

• 33:04Speaker 02

  So, look, I said, I said, Josh, do I, do I struggle to ask for help? And Josh goes, are you kidding me?

• 33:13Speaker 02

  And I go, oh, my gosh, the answer is so obvious, and I have no idea what it is.

• 33:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, I don't know anyone who struggles more asking for help than you.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  No way, bro.

• 33:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  For real.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  I accept, but this is crazy. Tell me more.

• 33:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You have my permission.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 33:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know, I, I will, um, I see areas where like, I almost see you wanting to ask for help, but like, I think you see it as maybe, I don't know if it's a form of weakness or whatever. Now I'm projecting onto you. So, so understand that I don't necessarily think this, but, but there are times where I'm like, if you need help, just ask for it, TK. You'll be like, all right, all right, all right. And then you don't, and I'm just like, hey, man, can I help you with this? And you're like, yeah, okay, okay.

• 34:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And, and I know that if you truly are in an emergency, you'll ask for help. I, I, I'm not questioning that. I know if you're in an emergency, you can, you know, you can call me and I'll go wherever you are. You could be in Guam and I'll figure out a way to come help. But outside of emergency, I, I don't know what it is. I don't, it's not ego, it's not bravado, but is there some sort of cultural conditioning there? Tell me about it.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  That's funny, man. I don't know.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  I don't know. I have to think about that, man.

• 34:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think the irony here is you need less help than most people. And so maybe, um, and, and maybe when I'm saying help, I mean, something specific, like a transactional ask. Hey, Josh, can you help me with this?

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Maybe it's this. I will tell you something I, ah. I do kind of think and it affects how much help I ask for it. So think of it in terms of like, we'll use this as an example, an interview. And you've got somebody really fascinating that you want to talk to. They're in the studio and maybe you've written down five questions. Okay. And some of those questions are super important. Like you would be really disappointed if they got out of your presence without answering that one. And then the others are kind of interesting to you. You don't want to risk asking the other questions before you cover the important stuff. You don't want to steal time and attention away from that. And I feel that way with help where the people in my life, even the ones that would go to bat for me like all the way.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  They do have limited resources. They do have limited energy and I respect that. And I just, I just accept that about people. And if I know that I'm gonna need you for maybe a big ask later, or for what I think is a big ask. And I need you now for something like, let's say right now I want a cup of coffee. And I, and I really want a cup of coffee. I probably wouldn't ask you for that, even though I know you'd give it to me. Because I also probably have in my head, something big I want to ask you in two weeks or a month. And I'm like, I'm gonna save up my ask for that because that's more important to me. I'll do it out the coffee.

• 36:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The argument I would make against that is our friendship doesn't have a ledger. And, and maybe there is on some emotional or spiritual level, there is an energetic ledger around that. That is not one for one debits and credits, but there is a, okay, that's what I talked about earlier. Sometimes you have this friend, they're always pining or, or trying to inject themselves into like, how, what can I extract from this? And that's obviously not you. In fact, it's often the opposite with you where it's like, hey, extract something from this relationship TK. Even though I, I know you would never feel that, but I think the other part of it is probably just like, you're similar to me in this respect. You're like, I got this. And, and I don't actually need help in a lot of instances.

• 37:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So I will save it so that when I actually know that I need help. I'm going to reach out. But you also do a good job of still building the relationship without asking for help. And I think that's the distinction you made earlier where it's, it could be simply you're, you're engaging with someone so that every three years, you're like, can I borrow your truck? It doesn't feel awkward. And if you did have a big ask of me next week, we would figure it out. I wouldn't have any, any issue with that. And vice versa, I know the same. I mean, just recently, my brother Dodd, I asked you for a few things to, to help out with that. And I know that you were willing to do it. And, and even in that moment, I'm like, oh, this is something I can't do. I need TK's help with it.

• 37:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And, and it's hard for me to ask that too. So I, I relate with Whitney and several of the other people who wrote in today. And I relate with you on this.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  You've helped me see something. So the explanation I gave myself isn't based on the assumption that I'm right. It's just the expression of a habit. And I, I think you're right here and you've helped me realize something. When it comes to asking philosophical questions, I am completely unapologetic. I have no conscience whatsoever. If you're in my presence and I think you know something that I want to know, I can't imagine being insecure or self-conscious about asking you.

• 38:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's true. You're, you're the best at that.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  Because I, I just have no conscience with that. I'm going to ask you and I can't even control myself.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  On the other hand, I'm not like that at all with asking for resources or, or, or for someone to help me in a way that would use their resources. And I, we've even had situations where we've had people on this show and you knew coming into the episode that I was a big fan of this author, whatever. And you've suggested things like, you should email them, like you know them now, they're on the show, you should interview that guy. And, and my attitude towards that has been like, nah, you know, nah, nah. But when that person's here, I'd be like, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? But it's like, Nah, man, I'm not gonna email that guy. I'm not gonna bother that guy. There is something there where the freedom I have with asking in one area doesn't translate to other areas. And part of that, say what?

• 39:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Could it?

• 39:10Speaker 02

  It totally could. It totally could. We're unpacking that right now. And we'll do more of that later on. We won't use this episode for it. But yeah, it totally could. Yeah.

• 39:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, maybe we'll use page two or somewhere on page three to keep unpacking. My pithy answer was simply this. Every pillar needs a foundation. And so when I think about asking for help, that's like, that's one of the pillars. And I can't, I can't ask for help without, without having some sort of basic foundation. It doesn't need to be the most sturdy structure. But those are the people that I, that I tend to go way out of my way to help out. As someone who has worked hard to help themselves in some way, even if they failed repeatedly at it, but I see the effort that is being made, I feel good about trying to help that person out. That's almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers

• 40:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to talk to. Also, in a second, we'll do a what would Josh own question here at the end of page one. But first, real quick for right here, right now, I've got two things going on in the life of the minimalist. First off, look at this, look at this little book, TK. If you're watching the video version, shout out to Dave and Sean. We finally got this in. It's a pocket sized version of very, very simple. I've got this, this, we started this as an audiobook. You and I recorded an audiobook and I put out an ebook version of it. And then we formatted it to make it this beautiful little pocket size. I can keep this in my back pocket now. Very, very simple. 12 tools for a simpler life. It's an inexpensive print book. You can buy 10 of them, hand them out to your friends, family,

• 40:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  coworkers, enemies. You can use them as doorstops, whatever you want to do. But it's 12 simple tools for a simpler life. There's actually 13 in here, plus the bonus five from, from previous works that we've done. So I guess you really have 18 different tools for a simpler life. What does it say on the back here? Very, very simple. It's a clear, compassionate Guide to Living with Less and finally feeling better about the stuff you own. Inside you'll discover 12 practical tools, flexible rules, not dogma, to help you define what's no longer acceptable in your life and let it go. Less clutter, fewer distractions, more life. You can check out Very Very Simple at veryversimple.com.

• 41:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can get the audiobook on Audible or you can get the ebook on Amazon or the print book on Amazon as well. Hope you check that out. Also, one more thing, we just opened a few additional clutter counseling slots on this month's calendar. So if you want to ask for help, if you're struggling with physical clutter, emotional clutter, relationship clutter, or career clutter, or any other kind of clutter, The Minimalists can help. Okay, clutter counseling session with us today over at theminimalists.com. Just click Counseling there at the top. TK, what are your favorite problems to solve, to help out with during these sessions?

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Helping people unroot the self-defeating thoughts that keep them from giving themselves permission to do the things they want to do. Many of my clients sit across from me and they say, "This is what I would do if I could." And when I say, "Why can't you?", the answer is rarely, if ever, a disability or a non-negotiable circumstance. It's some kind of story that says, "I will be a bad person. I will be an unloving person. I will be a lazy person. I will become too soft if I allow myself to say yes." And helping people rework that and reframe that is one of my greatest joys.

• 42:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You do such a great job, man. Clutter Counseling over at theminimalists.com. Just click Counseling at the top. There are a few additional slots open this month. Before we get on to page two, let's do a What Would Josh Own question? This one is from Jess.

• 43:08Speaker 05

  Hi, this is Jess calling from Naples. Quick question for What Would Joshua Own? What kind of infrared sauna do you have? Thanks.

• 43:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  A scandal. Is it true that JFM has a sauna at home?

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Come on, man.

• 43:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What kind of sauna does he have? Uh, yes, Jess, I do own a sauna.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Sauna, but.

• 43:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I use it for about 22 minutes every other day right now. Uh, I was just in it yesterday. Sometimes that varies. Sometimes I'll use it like, I think Friday, Saturday, I used it, uh, two days in a row there, but generally every other day for 22 minutes. And I'll tell you what kind of sauna I have in a second, but first let's talk about why I decided to actually purchase one. I got it four years ago. So first off, I want to say this. Here's my caveat. You don't need to buy a sauna to have access to one. I didn't for years and I use them almost daily. Uh, good quality saunas are not cheap, but I am. So I waited to buy mine until I was sure I would actually use it and I had the space for it at home, which it doesn't take up much space. I have an outdoor, uh, unit, which we'll talk about here in a second, but over the years I have

• 44:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  used saunas at my local YMCA, at the gym, at local spas, at friends' houses, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I would start there before considering buying a sauna. Make sure you like it. It's like test drive in a car, but I'm just gonna buy a sauna. I've never actually tried it. Um, second, uh, turns out there are all kinds of health benefits from regular sauna use, especially infrared sauna. So I have an infrared sauna at home. So I'm going to turn this into a mini more about less segment. We usually do more about less. In fact, we have a great more about less coming up on page three here, but I'm going to turn this into a mini more about less segment where I'm going to read something to you. These are the benefits of infrared saunas. According to the Mayo Clinic,

• 44:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  infrared saunas use light to directly heat your body at lower temperatures than traditional saunas. This therapy is linked to several wellness benefits, including improved cardiovascular health, reduced inflammation, muscle recovery, and deep relaxation. Here are the core health and wellness benefits. There are five of them here. Um, in fact, we'll put a link to this in the show notes. You can go ahead and, uh, and read more if you want. I'll just read the highlights. Heart and health circulation, muscle and joint pain relief. That one was a big one for me. Stress reduction, that is a huge, that's not why I started doing it, but wow, wow, does it help with stress reduction. Skin clarity, again, not why I started using it,

• 45:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  but we did talk to, we talked to Andy about when we did the minimalist skincare episode. One of the best things you can do for your skin is sweat regularly, and one of the best ways to do that is with a sauna. The biggest reason I do it is this last benefit is toxin release. I have that MTHFR gene mutation, so it's harder for me to detox than a lot of people, but a lot of people have it. It's not an insignificant number. There's a large plurality of people who have this gene mutation. But even if you don't, like, there are only four ways for your body to detox. You know all four of them off the top of your head, TK? No, no. Okay, so you have your breath, you have, well, number one and number two, your pee and your poop, right? And then your largest organ in your body is your skin. That's the

• 46:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  main way, the main four ways that your body detoxes. I remember the first time I got into a sauna, I, it was the same day I got into an ice bath. I was 31 years old, maybe. I was here in Los Angeles. Ryan and I were on tour. It was December, I think, 2011, and, which I guess would have made me 30 years old. And I, we stopped by this Russian bath house, and I got into a sauna, and I, it took me forever to start sweating, like, a long, long time. And everyone's just pouring sweat, and I'm 20 minutes in, I'm still not sweating, and I realize, like, oh, I haven't been detoxing much at all. And eventually, I started sweating what I can only describe as like a, a blackish-brown dust. It was

• 47:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  the, it was like sand was coming out of my pore, like, the finest sand. I couldn't explain it. And ever since then, I knew that, like, oh, I need to do this way more frequently. Wow, that sounded like an exorcism. Yeah, it sounded like a horror film, but it kind of was a horror film, and I realized I needed to start doing a lot more of it. But I actually really enjoy doing it now. It's a meditative space. I often go in there with my wife or with other people. Most people Our team have been in the sauna. I think Sean, you've been in there before, maybe even a few times. And yeah, it's just an enjoyable experience. It's a communal experience, or I just go do it by myself and meditate.

• 47:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Here's how it works, according to this article here. Unlike conventional saunas that heat the air around you, infrared light penetrates directly into the body, often 1.5 to 2 inches deep. Because it operates at more comfortable temperatures, typically 120 to 140 degrees. I usually do about 145 in the infrared. Well, if I'm in a dry sauna, I like it really hot, like 200, 210, absurd level of heat. But infrared, you don't have to have it up that hot. It says it's a highly accessible option for those who struggle with intense heat of traditional hot air saunas. Yeah, my wife prefers that much more than a 210 degree sauna. Expert perspective, while studies show promise for chronic health conditions and heart health,

• 48:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  medical institutions like the Cleveland Clinic and the Mayo Clinic point out that while no harmful effects have been reported, large-scale studies are still ongoing to fully substantiate all claims. Always consult a healthcare professional before starting new heat therapies, especially if you have pre-existing cardiovascular or blood pressure conditions. And with that info out of the way, the brand of sauna I use is called Clearlight. I got it about four years ago. And I chose that company because their units are low EMF, which was important to me. They have a lifetime warranty and they have an outdoor version, which was useful for me because I don't have space in my home for something like that. And they've been in the business for a long time, since the 90s.

• 49:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I didn't want to buy something that was like an ad on Instagram and it's a brand new company that's been around for six months. I don't know what's going to happen. So I didn't want to fly by night company for some purchase this big. I have what's called their Sanctuary Outdoor Model. We'll put a picture of it here on the screen. Tom Cat will. You can see the unit that I use. I will tell you this, just to full transparency, I've had two issues with my sauna over the last four years. It never stopped working for me, which is great, but I did have a faulty part that came loose on the exterior. So it was just a sort of superficial facade thing that needed to be fixed. And another time, the timer on the display stopped working

• 50:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  or was working intermittently. The sauna still worked, but the timer was kind of off. But thankfully, the Clearlight folks came out and fixed it like almost immediately. It was a little shocking how quickly they came out. And I think it's part of the lifetime warranty. If anything goes wrong, they will come out and fix it for you. Just when I got your question, I emailed the Clearlight folks and asked them if they had some sort of affiliate discount code that I could give you. But they said that since each sauna is made to order, they asked me to just have you email Sage or at healwithheat.com and they'll give you and anyone listen to this, a discount. So I guess if you decide to get one, you might actually end up paying less for yours than I did for mine. I will put

• 50:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Sage's email address and phone number in the show description for anyone who is interested. That said, this is not an impulse purchase. I spent a lot of time researching this and figuring it out, making sure it was right for me. I would not buy a sauna unless you are sure you are going to use it regularly. For anyone else who has a what would Josh own question or a listener tip for the show, we'd love to hear from you. Send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on a future episode. All right, much more coming up on page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick panticulation break. We'll be right back.

• 51:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that is the first 33%. We've got so much more for you on Patreon. We're going to answer a bunch of questions. Robert asks, if minimalism helped him get rid of unwanted possessions, can it also help him get rid of unwanted relatives? Then we discuss the black bag decluttering method and how much it costs to live well.

• 51:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Also, what is the best anti-consumerism song so far this year? All that and so much more this week on Patreon on the private podcast. You can find the link in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Overcast, et cetera, et cetera. You'll also gain access to all of our archives. It's more than a decade of private archives. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff, and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields Millburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works.

• 52:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.