544 | What a Mess!

The Minimalists talk about everyday things that turn into clutter, areas in your home that become messy quickly, one question to ask before buying new clothes, 15 useful tips for using your phone less, and more. Discussed in this episode: Is every item you own something you eventually have to organize? (7:22) Where do minimalists actually store all the everyday stuff that usually ends up covering countertops and surfaces? (9:54) What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest? (23:38) Right Here, Right Now: A Minimalism 10th-Anniversary Tour retrospective. (44:38) WWJO: Where did Joshua get his new shacket? (51:11) Have a question for the show? Call 406-219-7839 or email a voice memo to [email protected]. Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist, living a meaningful life with less. Joshua Fields Millburn over here, TK Coleman over there.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  It's good to be here.

• 0:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I just got back, man. Boy, are my arms tired.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  You ever seen that, uh, there's like an Al Roker like moment where he's like in a, he's talking with people and then he just sort of has a moment where he freezes.

• 1:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Uh, no, I haven't seen that.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  He's like that for like six seconds. So, so it's become memeable to say, you just got Al Roker, or you just Al Rokered me with that. I'm just like, what? How, rewind. How was the trip to Missoula, man?

• 1:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, yeah, we just finished the tour up there. I'll talk about it a bit more on the right here, right now segment coming up later on page one, but it was remarkable. It was a great place to end the tour. I, I forgot about Montana. I was just talking to Savvy D about this because he was in Florida this past week and we had radically different experiences, but similar internal experiences. Hmm. So he's in Florida and it's summertime. You know, Florida in summer is hot and humid and he's out there skating for 10 minutes and has to take a break. He's like, oh man, I forgot about this. He grew up in it, but when you leave it and you come back, you're sort of a tourist in your own town.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And Nicodemus and I were there and I just forgot, like two days ago, it was hailing on me. It's June right now. And I'm talking about heavy hail where I had to go inside and just watch the, the hail come down. Bex and I were, uh, were waiting in the storefront for the hail to stop. And then yesterday morning I, uh, got up early and, uh, we had a podcast interview we're getting ready to do. And I go across the street from the hotel and there's. Nice coffee shop over there. I go there to get my wife a matcha because she just really enjoys a morning matcha. I want to surprise her with it. And I go over there and I get the matcha. And I'm walking back to the hotel and our room is on the second floor. On the second floor,

• 2:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  there's this terrace and I'm walking across the terrace all confidently. I've got her matcha in one hand and my coffee mug in the other hand. And I'm just walking on the terrace. It's beautiful terrace. It's a relatively new hotel downtown. They just remodeled the Mercantile building. And as I'm walking through the terrace, there are all of these tiles there. And I didn't notice that there was frost on them. And that frost was thick enough that it was ice. It's June and I just busted my ass on ice. I hit one of the tiles and it was like a cartoon. I had matcha in one hand, coffee in the other, and they just go

• 3:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  flying up in the air. Green fills the sky in front of me. And I had no idea this was about to happen. And so, early June, and I'm in Montana. And it reminded me of my favorite bumper sticker there. It's a local Missoula bumper sticker, Montana bumper sticker. It says, "Montana is where you remove your snow tires in May and regret it in June." Oh, man. And that's sort of a description of the weather. I know when we first moved out there, we had visited Montana in July and it's paradise. It looks like an Abercrombie and Fitch ad. It's bald eagles and, and, you know, college kids with washboard abs.

• 4:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And, and it's just like this stunning place. The nature, the mountains, the river. Yeah, it's, you see why people go to Montana. And then we move out there on October 3rd. I got there first. I just text Ryan, like, what did we get ourselves into? October 3rd was in the middle of a blizzard. And we spent the whole winter writing that book, Everything That Remains. It's still my favorite thing that we've, we've written. And we were in this cabin in the middle of nowhere, negative 26 degrees a lot of days. And so, Montana is a special place, partially because of the nature. But partially because I think the people have to endure these these wild fluctuations in weather because later in the day yesterday it was 71 degrees, but in the morning I'm busting

• 4:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  my ass slipping on ice trying to deliver a matcha to my beautiful wife.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  I I see that moment happen too where your where your feet slip on the banana peel like the cartoons. You run in place for like five seconds and then when your arms go up, everything goes slow and it's like.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  You just see green and brown in the air. I'm glad it's not on video though, but did you go back and get the matcha?

• 5:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I went back and got another one.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Another matcha?

• 5:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Of course I did, yeah. I limped back and got, I'm still in pain right now. My leg's all bruised up and it hurt my back and my neck and Ryan and I were doing the Missoula podcast, this local guy Brandon Smith over there who does this great show. It's local, but they have listeners all over the world because a lot of people connect with that community and they want to know more about Montana and Missoula. And so we did a whole conversation over there and so I I limped back, got the matcha, made it. You know, here's another thing I had to let go of. I realized something yesterday that part of my identity is I'm a guy who's on time. And I really like being on time. It's a strong preference of mine, but I also realized that, oh no, this is part of like,

• 6:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm, I'm thinking I need to do whatever I can to be, make sure I'm still on time for this podcast. I ended up being five minutes late because of this emergency that I had, right? And so I had to let, let that go. I've always been the guy, it sure was a coping mechanism when I was a kid. They didn't even have an award for this. I had perfect attendance from every grade after second grade because I had the chicken pox one year, so I couldn't go to school. But after that, I did not miss a day of school. Even when I was crazy sick or had strep throat and, and there is a level of letting go that I just had to do even yesterday where I'm like, I need to let go of this piece of my identity because it's not serving me anymore.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, I like that. So when we do the next minimalist documentary, we're gonna put that scene in there for comic relief. And we're gonna have you be 15 minutes late. And, and when you get to Bex with her matcha, she's gonna be like so mad that you're late. She's like, I don't even want a matcha now. And she'll take the cup and throw it at your face. And matcha will spill all over you again.

• 7:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  She would never, but that is a hilarious scene. It's like an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm. Well, TK, here's something to chew on. Every item you own is something you eventually have to organize. When you think about buying things, we rarely think of that. Like anything that I own, anything that I purchased, anything I bring in is something I eventually have to organize. Why do you think we don't think about new purchases this way?

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Hmm. Well, new purchases tend to make big promises. And that's really the joy of novelty. Because it's something that we don't already have. And the promises are big. That new treadmill that you purchased for New Year's is the promise of physical fitness, right? The, the new car is the promise of like ease and convenience and the luxury feel. But all things, whether new or old, have maintenance and upkeep. And when it comes to the things that are already present in our lives, things with which we're already familiar, well, it's easy to think about the, the maintenance because we're already involved in the process. But when it comes to this new thing,

• 8:27Speaker 02

  we see the possibilities, which motivates us to purchase it. But we don't yet have the responsibilities that come with it. And those responsibilities aren't a bad thing. It just means that everything has costs beyond the price tag cost. There's the cost of managing it. There's the cost of dealing with it. And you want to keep that in mind and make sure that you're good with being able to afford both.

• 8:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and the cost of continuously organizing our living space. And I think that'll be a bit of a theme here today, that every item you own is something you eventually have to organize. And that is value neutral. I'm not saying organizing is good or bad. I think often organizing doesn't work. And we'll talk about that a bit today as well, because we're talking about everyday things that turn into clutter today. Also, areas in your home that become messy very quickly. And I have one question to ask yourself before you buy new clothes and much, much more today on episode 544 of the minimalist podcast. Also, on page two,

• 9:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I have 15 useful tips for using your phone less. We'll start with our callers. If you have a question for the show, we'd love to hear from you. 406-219-7839. That's the phone number. Or you can just grab your phone, record a quick voice memo, and send it to [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you. Shout out to our Patreon subscribers. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber, so we can prioritize your message. Our first question today is from Wendy.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Hi, my name is Wendy. I'm calling from Walnut Creek, California. I'd love advice on the practical side of minimalism. My home is organized, and yet I still feel visually cluttered, because everyday items end up living on countertops and other surfaces. When I see minimalist homes, I always wonder, where does everything actually go? For example, in the kitchen, how do people keep so much counter space open and clear? In the primary bathroom, where do things like lotion, makeup, hair products, contact solution, extra toilet paper, Band-Aids, Neosporin, and sunscreen actually live? And what about charging cords, sentimental items, journals, gift bags, or dog and cat toys? Open shelving especially

• 10:42Speaker 00

  seems to make things feel busier, not calmer for me. I'd really love your thoughts on the practical systems behind homes that feel minimal, but still function for real life. Thanks so much for taking the time for my question.

• 10:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, definitely get practical for Wendy, but first I'd like to get a bit philosophical here and understand that we were talking about this a moment ago about everything you bring in has to be organized. And it sounds to me like she's overwhelmed by the the organization that's going on there. And so the thing that I would say first, the first thing worth thinking about in my own home is the easiest way to organize your home is to own less stuff. Owning less means having fewer things to organize. It also means having fewer things to stress over. The maintenance costs, the additional costs aren't there if you have fewer things. And people often think minimalism is an anti-thing philosophy, but I think of it as a pro-thing philosophy. Would you agree?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I would say it's about entering into the healthiest possible relationship with the things that we have by getting rid of the things that are a distraction to that. In every area of life, we have core values and core interests that really define our why. And then we have things on the periphery, some of which supports our efforts, some of which distracts from those efforts. Minimalism is about getting rid of or minimizing the distractions so that all of the things that we have either reflect our core values or they support our efforts to be committed to them.

• 12:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think about my own home and everything in my home has its own home. Like I have a home. I live there. And whether it's a studio apartment, or it is if someone has a five bedroom or 10 bedroom mansion, right? I think about everything in that home still has a home. And often the things that feel cluttered in the home are just contextually cluttered. Obviously, if I put my couch in my bathroom, I'm going to know right away that this is getting in the way. This is not the right home for that thing. And at first, I might think, oh, then I shouldn't have a couch, right? Well, no, it's just it has a different home. The home for my couch is my living room. Savvy D, I'm going

• 12:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to send you a video that Tomcat can put here on the screen as we're talking about this.

• 13:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So I'm just gonna do a walkthrough of my home. And specifically, I'm thinking about the areas that Wendy talked about here. The entryway, the living room, the bedroom, and the kitchen. So as we're talking about this, we'll just have the video playing here. And what you'll see in this home isn't that I don't own things. It's that I own the appropriate amount of things. And she touched on one thing I think is really important for me is I don't do open shelving. Except for my bookshelf in my office. And the reason I don't do open shelving is she's right. I don't want to expose all of the things that I'd like to to put away.

• 13:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There's a reason that I don't have all glass windows all around my home either. It's not, well, there are a few reasons. One is I don't think that'd be very eco-friendly and my heating and air conditioning bills would be off the charts. But also, I don't want everyone to be able to look into the house all the time and be fully exposed. And I would say the same thing might be true for my material possessions. It's not that I'm hiding them away, it's I'm putting them away. I like to make that distinction. Does it make sense to you?

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I think there's a, it also gets at the tension that exists between accessibility and aesthetic, where accessibility refers to the convenience of where I place things and where I retrieve them from. Whereas aesthetic, how they actually look when they are in that place. And sometimes the most convenient place to put things is not the most aesthetically pleasing place to have them. And, you know, if you think about it in terms of like you walk in and, you know, the most comfortable thing is to just take off your shoes and put them somewhere by the door, to to empty your pockets of your keys and your wallet and maybe just put them on whatever table or surfaces nearby. The mail comes in and you don't have time to look at it right then and there. Just put it on whatever surface is nearest to wherever you retrieve the mail from.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  But then when you have to step back and look at that, you go, oh, convenient to place it there. Not pretty to look at. And then that's where this question is born.

• 15:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and often convenience is the enemy of minimalism. Ooh, tweet that, Professor Sean. Because what we do is it's very convenient or easy to do what you just talked about. I'm going to find this interstitial zone. In fact, during the question of the week, we'll talk about some of these interstitial zones that turn into problems really quickly. And so there's some questions. Let's get practical for a moment with Wendy. And the questions I ask myself is, where is this thing's home? And it's easier for a thing like a couch. We know where its home is. It's going to be in my living room. But even there, you can say, well, it goes against this wall. Or maybe I want to create more space away from the wall. And I have the appropriate amount of space to do that. And so my space actually feels more spacious if I put this piece of furniture

• 15:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  in a different location in the home. That one's pretty easy to understand. But then there are all of these other things that aren't necessarily aesthetically pleasing. If you have a bunch of cat and dog toys in your house, as Wendy mentions, or you have a bag of dog food, and you don't just want to put that on the counter, and you don't want those things out on the floor. That's when they turn into clutter, even if they're useful. And I think it's important to understand that there are those two types of clutter. There's the contextual clutter that we just talked about. And then there's the useful or useless clutter in our homes. And we need to make that distinction. If I have something that is useless, and then I just put it in a drawer, or a cabinet, or an attic, or a basement, or shove it out there in the garage, guess what happens?

• 16:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's just useless somewhere else. It's clutter that is hidden. But then you have these other things that are useful, and they're just clutter because they're contextual clutter. They're fitting into these interstitial zones, and they have a better home in your home. And I'm sure you've had to deal with this quite a bit now that you and Michelle moved into this apartment that was just right for you because of the location. And so you settled for much fewer square feet. You have a 400 square foot apartment. And because of that, you have to be really cognizant of where things go. Things must have a home because you don't have a lot of room for things that might get in the way.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  And you've got to be really creative too, because some things you really want, you feel like they really serve you. And even when that's true, it doesn't mean you have room for them. And so you have to say, well, how can I place this? You know, how can I make this work? And that might require a little sacrifice in one area or some flexibility in a different area. But you're absolutely right. It's a, it takes a lot of intentionality and you can't over prioritize convenience. It's not only the enemy of minimalism, it's the enemy of beauty. It's the enemy of effectiveness and it's the enemy of really the life that you want to create. It's not to say that that convenience should be demonized as intrinsically bad,

• 18:02Speaker 02

  but convenience without discipline is the exact life you don't want to have. The question of discipline is a question of where is it worth sacrificing convenience in order for me to create the results that matter most to me?

• 18:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And by the way, adding more storage space, it feels like that can be the answer here. But often it is not. In fact, I would argue most of the time it's not. I'm thinking back to when Ryan and I lived in Missoula and we were roommates together. And it was the first time I'd ever been a roommate with anyone other than a romantic partner. And it was me and Ryan and Colin Wright, who we had started a business together. This was 2013, we were looking for a new, January 2013, we were looking for a new apartment to, to move into and we found a house there on Brooks in Missoula. And it was almost perfect for us, but the reason that I said no to it is there was too much storage space.

• 19:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I realized, oh, I'm actually going to pay more for the space we're not going to use. And it wasn't the right kind of space. It wasn't a spaciousness sort of space. There were giant walk-in closets. I mean, one of the bedrooms had a walk-in closet that was almost half the size of this studio. Even though it was an old house, it wasn't a particularly fancy or nice house. In fact, I think they must have converted a small room into a closet. And it was a room that we were never going to use and yet we were still going to pay for. Not just pay for it financially, but pay for it with the space it takes up in our mind. This closet that we weren't going to use wasn't the kind of space that we wanted. Maybe I did want a big spacious living space, but I don't want space that just goes unused.

• 19:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Imagine paying for a storage locker that you never used and yet you get the bill every month for $200. That's what this kind of felt like. We had giant closets. We had a giant pantry that we weren't even going to fill up a quarter of the way. And at first, it can feel like if I just had more storage space, well, then my house wouldn't be as cluttered. It would be organized. And I would say, well, it's true. It would be organized, but I don't think it would be less cluttered. It would just be cluttered differently. You would take your clutter, the things you aren't using, so the useless clutter, and you would put them elsewhere. And so when you walk through my house and you take a look at that video we were just looking at, we can throw it up here on the screen again.

• 20:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If you walk into my entryway, there's no clutter there, but I have a few cabinets. And there are a couple of things I keep behind those cabinets, some cords and things that are hidden out of sight. And then if you walk into the living room and you see the living room here in the kitchen, there's sort of, it's a combined space here, we have empty countertops. And this is how I live every day. They're not completely empty. You have a coffee kettle and a coffee grinder there. The things I use every day are the things I keep on the counter. We call it the no piles rule. And then when you go into the living room, I have some stuff there. In fact, I will often, I have a yoga block that I use every day. I have a meditation cushion that I use every day. It's all a part of the furniture.

• 21:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In fact, we're sleeping, or we're sitting more and more on the floor as opposed to sitting on the couch. We still use the couch pretty regularly, but we're finding that we spend much more time on the floor with some of our PT tools, you know, for physical therapy and stretching. And so I have a foam roller in there. And so it's important for those things for me to be aesthetically pleasing, because if they're not aesthetically pleasing, then I try to hide it. But there are many things I have. In my home that are in the pantry that I use regularly that aren't aesthetically pleasing, and I want them out of sight. It's having the appropriate amount of space for those things, but also having the appropriate amount of things, as you illustrated with your smaller 400 square foot apartment.

• 21:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's having the appropriate amount of things so that they fit into the space that I have. I think Wendy would get a lot of benefit from Very, Very Simple. It's this audiobook that you and I recorded. There are these 12 tools, 12 rules for a simpler life. And I was looking at the list of all of these rules. And usually someone calls in and I'm like, oh yeah, you know, the no piles rule would work really well for you, or the hate that shirt rule would work really well. Or what about the clutter coffins rule? That definitely works for Wendy's question. Or what about the entryway rule? Or the junkless junk drawer rule? Or the future clutter rule? Or the set the stage rule?

• 22:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  For Wendy, it's the first caller where I think all, there's 13 of these actually. So we have this bonus rule, the Wednesday rule. I think all 13 of these rules or tools, they're just adjustable boundaries for your own life. All 13 of them from Very, Very Simple would add a lot of value to your life and make your home feel a lot calmer. And so you can, actually it came out as a print book recently as well. Really beautiful paperback that we were able to put together. Sean just put it up there and Dave designed the paperback and it's beautiful. So if you want to check it out as a paperback, you can do that. I prefer the audiobook because you and I did a little mini podcast between every single rule and it's only like 90 minutes. You can find that on Audible as well.

• 23:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But Wendy, I'd be happy to send you a copy of Very, Very Simple. Whether you want the book book, the ebook, or the audiobook version. It's 12 tools for a simpler life, plus that one bonus tool as well. Before we get back to our callers, TK, let's examine the question of the week. What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest? What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest? Let's check with our Patreon community chat, see what they had to say. Stacy says, my kitchen quickly turns into clutter. My kitchen turns into clutter.

• 24:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If I let it, I think that's the important part. She's taking responsibility here, right? If I let it turn into a cluttered space. She says Sundays are for wiping down the refrigerator, pantry, appliances, cabinets, door handles, counters and drawers. I call that the once a month rule, but she's doing it once a week. So it's an adjustable boundary there as well. She says checking for expiration dates, spills, empty packaging, spoiled leftovers, crumbs on the floor or in bar stools or placemats. This hub of family life needs a weekly refresher. Let's put a pin in that, that, that phrase there. This hub of family life, because I think that's applicable and we'll see a theme here.

• 24:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Sean said, our bookshelf tends to be a transition point that clutters quickly. Mail, packages, school projects and other small items that are en route to their true destinations. And then Susan said, my garage entryway has turned into an appliance halfway house. What a great turn of phrase. An appliance halfway house. She says, pressure cookers, rice cookers and slow cookers check in, but they never seem to check out. Remember those old raid commercials? The, the, or the roach, roach motel commercials? Oh, you didn't grow up poor. You probably don't remember any of that stuff. It's like, what is a roach motel? They had the, uh, Savvy D, I don't know if you remember these, but it was like the roach motel

• 25:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  where the roaches check in, but they never check out. And it was like the way that you could kill, but they, they check out all the time. It didn't work at all. I used to turn my kitchen light on back on Warren Street in Ohio. And I, there was like a thousand roaches would just scatter as soon as the light came on. It was the craziest.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Isn't that like the most resilient insect, by the way?

• 25:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It has to be, man. Yeah. Yeah. It's either that or humans.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  I, I, I've seen YouTube videos on their speed. It is uncanny how, how fast they are, how, how, how rapidly they reproduce. I think it's an alien.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  They are here already. They live.

• 26:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He's got the tinfoil hat on and I'm here for it. We're gonna do that. We'll have to do that on Patreon. We'll do the whole, uh, what are the, the animals and insects that are most likely to be aliens? Victor Wembanyama is definitely on that list, man. He's gotta be 7'7". I saw a picture of him walking next to Kelly Olynyk, who's like the third string center on the San Antonio Spurs. And he was at least a head taller than Kelly Olynyk. Kelly Olynyk's seven feet tall. And, and Victor Wembanyama was listed at like 7'3" or so. There's no way. He's hiding how tall he is. I'm calling him eight feet at this point now.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  I saw a video of him walking in the Madison Square Garden and, uh, and these ladies, I guess, uh, the caption was like, these New Yorkers be wilding out. And these ladies like, ooh, that's a, that's a tall glass of sugar right there, baby. And they just catcalling him the whole time that he's walking. He's just laughing at him.

• 27:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Let's do one more here. This one's from Taylor. Taylor said, "The kitchen island. It's right at the entrance of our apartment. Some of these things are a physical reminder of my to-do list. The rest is my husband's drop zone of stuff. And I love him so much that I'm cool, even though it's not my preference." Well, I will say this, that love is not a permission slip for clutter. That's my pithy answer for you today, my minimal maxim. And because sometimes it'd be unloving to simply let someone, uh, to not acknowledge your, your preferences. Cause your husband may not know your preferences at all. And of course, then there's a tactful way to do it.

• 27:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The way not to do it is that I'll be like, "Hey, what's up with this stupid pile of stuff?" Or, or, "Hey, can you get this stuff out of your drop zone?" As opposed to getting really curious about it. TK taught this to me. You, uh, whenever a pile starts to accumulate in my home in a day, if a two pieces of mail show up on the counter, I'll just get curious about it. But hey, tell me about what's going on here with this pile. She's like, "Oh yeah, that's your mail." I'm like, "Oh, okay. Cool. Let me, let me deal with it now." Because everything has a home and clearly that's not a home. But TK, I noticed a pattern here between Stacy and Sean and Susan and Taylor. Each of these individuals has a euphemism for their little interstitial zone, which coincidentally, I think three of the four were sort of at the entryway there as well.

• 28:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But they had these little euphemisms. They said, uh, this is the hub of family life, or this is a transition point, or this is an appliance halfway house. That was probably the most honest of them, right? Because the other ones, they, it almost gives you permission to just, oh yeah, that's just, uh, that's my husband's drop zone. I think a drop zone is a great idea. I also think a hub of family life is a beautiful idea. And a transition point? Yes, the entryway is a transition point. But when we use this sort of language, it can soften the fact that it's not really a transition point. It's a convenience point.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think there are a few reasons for why that may be the case. The first I will, I will dub as the hot potato rule. So imagine that you've got an object in your hand and maybe there's a fire or, or, um, no, but better yet, there's some kind of emergency in the outside world that you gotta rush off to. And you're the last one leaving the house. You got this object in your hand. Someone's like, come on, Josh, we gotta go. Just put that down. And you look around, what's the easiest place to put this down and just kind of feel good about getting to it later? All of these spaces that were named are that kind of space. And we all need that because sometimes we are in a rush. Sometimes we've got a lot of things on our mind and sometimes it is best to come back to something later.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Set it down, tend to something more urgent, come back and organize that. That's a fitting thing.

• 30:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If there's an emergency, you're saying?

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Not necessarily if there's an emergency, just in the course of a day, you might have a lot of things that you need to handle. So for instance, you walk into the house with a bunch of groceries, but you really gotta pee. That's not exactly an emergency, but that's just a very common thing that can happen in life. So you need a place that's easy to sit it down so you can go do that. And then you come back and you put all of the things into their proper place.

• 30:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm gonna, so let me, uh, this is the fight part of the, uh, the podcast. Fight, fight, fight, fight. I, I love to disagree here. But I think it's probably just a semantic disagreement. I think having, well, at least for me, my stream is like a 21 year old. Peeing is an emergency. I need to use the bathroom right now. That is a type of emergency. If I really have to use the bathroom. And so to me, anything I'm not willing to deal with right now, there probably does need to be some sort of an emergency going on. So I have a rule as well. I call it the seven second rule. Because usually what happens is if I spend an extra seven seconds, I'll give you an example. If I take my shoes off at the entryway,

• 31:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  fine, it takes me about what, five seconds to do that? If I spend an extra seven seconds, it feels insurmountable in the moment because I just need to hurry up to take these off. Do I have seven seconds to actually put these shoes up? And for any one item, it's almost always seven seconds, even though it feels like it's going to take a lot longer. Now, for something like groceries, yeah, it's seven seconds per item. And if I have something that is, maybe it's not an emergency, but it is urgent that I have to use the bathroom. But we also wouldn't just take the groceries and leave them on the counter for several days because we know they would spoil.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. And so the important thing here is not how we define the word emergency, but it's rather the acknowledgement that sometimes in our process of entering into our home with various possessions on us, there are things that demand or request our attention that make it convenient for us in those moments to sit things down in the most accessible place at that time with the intention to coming back and addressing it later. So I could be walking in home, into my home with my laptop bag and my coffee mug. And maybe my mom calls me as I'm walking in and this is not an emergency, but I don't want to miss this call.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  And so I just set things down in the easiest place and then I pick up the phone call. Now, one of the things that we do in life is we often delay things that we know need to be done, things that are not very difficult to do with the intention to coming back. Back to them later and then we just forget. How many times have you not texted someone back or replied to a DM or something that you looked at? You said, oh, I'm gonna come back and do that in a moment. And then you just forget.

• 32:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  And that explains a lot of what happens in these kinds of spaces. A second thing that influences these kinds of situations is we often value not having to think too hard about things that we use frequently. I don't want to have to think very hard about where my car keys are. And so we sit things in places where it might be easy to remember, even if we don't remember. So if I put my coat and my car keys right by the door, well, even if I don't remember where I put them, when I walk out, and that's the time when I'll need them, I will see them and easily be able to retrieve them. And, and what often happens is that ease seduces us into putting

• 33:38Speaker 02

  a number of things there that might be best placed somewhere else, but they offer us that benefit of, of the convenience. And so you, you have these kinds of spaces that naturally emerge. And, and one of the reasons why I love your, your setting the stage rule, or I love how this family talked about how they, they take a look at the hub on Sundays and wipe everything down is because these are not just ways for us to prepare for the future. They're also ways for us to, to show grace towards our past because none of us are perfect. And we don't always follow through on our intentions. And sometimes we do get a little disorganized because life sometimes gets complex and chaotic in a way that's not illustrative of having vices.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  And when that happens, you need these built in rituals.

• 34:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  That allow you to say, hey, it's not the end of the world that I left that bag in an improper place. Because there is grace in my Sundays that allow me to use that as time to wipe down the counters or go back and cover up the multitude of sins I committed throughout the week, so to speak, with my things.

• 34:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So let's talk about that. What might a healthy version? Cause some of these are the unhealthy version and we're just putting a mask on it and saying, oh yeah, this is the hub of family. Or this is a transition point, or this is, this is the halfway, that's the honest thing. Yeah, it is a halfway house right now. It is a, and it is a transition zone. That's honest. I get that. But the under, the underlying statement from each one of these people is like, I'd prefer if it was different. And you don't have to get rid of the transition zone. You don't have to get rid of the drop zone. But what would a healthy drop zone look like for you?

• 35:25Speaker 02

  You, you, you began by saying, hey, what's right about this? What's right about it is the convenience. All right, cool. Is there another place I can put it that might just require an extra two steps? An extra three to four steps, and it's a little bit more work, but it's not that much work. And it gets me these same benefits. And so, um, things like making use of that nightstand in your bedroom, making use of that closet on the other end of the house, or making use of the cabinet that we've cleared some space away so that we can place the games when we're done. It might just require a little bit more effort, but you've got to be intentional and deliberate about it by saying, here's where I'm going wrong. Here are the benefits that are being offered to me by the thing that I don't want to do. And I'm going to strategically create or make room for a space in my home that gives me those same benefits.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  And that's how you gotta go about it.

• 36:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I agree. Maybe it's just an extra seven seconds. And sometimes it is, if, if I can do this in seven seconds and I don't have an emergency going on, even if I have something urgent, the urgent thing can probably wait seven seconds.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, if I have something that's going to require that much more work, but the truth is, most of these things don't, especially if you have a, a healthy drop zone set up. So when you, we'll go back to that, that video again of my home. When you walk into the entryway, I have what I would consider to be a healthy version of a drop zone. And it's not because, well, my house is more perfect than yours. No, it's because I dealt with the same issues as Stacy and Sean and Susan and Taylor. Every time I come home, there was a drop zone that felt cluttered. It felt disorganized. It felt like this transition space, like I needed to do something with this area all the time. It was a perpetual to do list of organizing. And so the first First thing to note is, of course, decluttering is more effective than organizing.

• 37:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Getting rid of the things that don't need to be organized makes the space feel simple. But then having a drop zone that is beautiful for me was also really important. So as soon as you walk in, I have these shelves in the home. And they were kind of ugly when we got to home. We had to paint them white. And so we painted them white and you could paint them whatever color you want. But they were like this weird blue that just didn't comport with my idea of aesthetically pleasing things. And so we painted the shelves white and we put some artwork on it. So I've got this glass teardrop vase on there. And then I have like this little house and a few other bits of art. And then I have a collection tray where things can go that need a home,

• 37:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  need to be dealt with throughout the day, but the collection tray is also beautiful. And then I have a piece of artwork that is a bowl. That's where I keep my keys and my wallet and anything else that might be in my pockets. So I have a beautiful drop zone for these things that adds an element of aesthetic beauty. But the first thing I have to do is make sure that it fits the things that I put there regularly. And the way to do that is to get rid of the things that I'm not going to be using with any regularity. Finding a better home for those things.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  I'll make one last counterpoint here. And I don't know if you'll think it's a counterpoint, but that's good for marketing, always is.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  A lot of our conversation is centering around how do I make things more beautiful, more simple, more aesthetic, more organized. But I also think an important piece of this puzzle is asking ourselves, what are the messes that I'm willing to tolerate as something that comes with the territory of the way I choose to do family life?

• 38:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, it's not a cost I'm willing to pay to get rid of that mess.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  That's right. And I think part of what it means to do family, and this doesn't mean anything negative about having family. But if I were to go to anyone that is married or has children, and I say, I know that you love your situation better than the alternative. But let's just imagine for a moment that you were Single and you didn't have your spouse or your children affecting you in the way they do. Is there anything you would do differently? I think apart from feeling like this is an incriminating question to answer. I think most people would would say like, yeah, I probably would do that differently. I have more of that. I have less of this because there are always things we take on. Responsibilities we take on, possessions we take on, things we tolerate. Meaning that if you were not single and you were just making your life about you. I think you were talking about this before the show.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  We're discussing like animation films and things like that and movies with talking animals and stuff. And you were saying you wouldn't watch those movies by yourself, but you watch them with your daughter because you love her.

• 39:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I would enjoy them with my daughter.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  And you would enjoy them with your daughter. But what you would enjoy with your daughter, you would never watch if it's just you alone.

• 40:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I would have watched Peppa Pig episode after episode by myself.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Right, even though you have no regrets about watching that episode.

• 40:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Absolutely.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  It's it's the same way with our messes in life. It's like, it's great to have a spouse. It's great to have children. It's awesome. But also that means that sometimes we do have to be like Taylor and say, that's my wife drop off zone. Now, now, maybe if that particular drop off zone is so irritating to me, it's killing me. Maybe we could have a conversation of like, hey, I know you need a drop off zone. But is there a way we can have a compromise? And maybe we have a drop off zone that's like not right in front of the door so that I'm tripping when I'm walking in or something like that. Right. But at the end of the day, you still are going to have to tolerate that there are presences in the house, preferences in the house, possessions in the house, ways of managing those possessions in the house other than your own. And that's an important part.

• 40:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I agree, and you might also recognize that they are also struggling with it. They may not be. It may not be clutter for them at all. But you may show up with a solution and they're like, wow, this is so much better. I'm glad we created a a healthy drop zone. Or because you're already doing that compromise, your spouse might say, oh, yeah, I didn't realize that was really bothering you. And if you have a better way for us to. Organize these things, then yeah, let me know. And you might say, yeah, well, we're gonna, there's, we're gonna make the space look better. So it, it conforms with what would be peaceful and calm for me. And who knows, maybe that's even peaceful and calm for someone else in the house as well. How about you listeners? What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest? Let us know your thoughts in the comments on Patreon or YouTube.

• 41:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, I got my minimal maxim out of the way. I made room for you TK. By the way, you can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com/podcast. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox every Monday for free. If you sign up for our free email newsletter, it's called the simple newsletter. You can find that at theminimalists.com. We'll never send you spam or junk or advertisements, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity, including a new essay, a new minimalist tip, a new minimalist insight every Monday in that email as well. All right, give me something pithy TK. What area of your home turns into clutter the fastest?

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Clutter is creativity in disguise. Another way I might put that is to say that, that clutter is frozen creativity and creativity is liquidated clutter. Now, first I'll answer the question directly, and that is books. That's the most likely thing to become clutter for me. But why is that? Books have to have an entry point into my home before they become clutter. And no one looks at something and says to themselves, I will bring that in my home for the express purpose of making it clutter. We bring things into our home because there's something about those things that reflect our aspirations and our affinities. That's the creative self. Oh, if I have that thing, it will nurture or inspire or

• 43:01Speaker 02

  give expression to some part of my creative self, whether that be a work of art, a book, those records and the record player, or whatever it may be. And then we bring it into our homes with all of these great ideals and intentions, and maybe we become forgetful or we become distracted. We lose sight of the why that constituted the reason for bringing them into our homes. And then that creative energy freezes and it becomes clutter. It becomes the, the, the water that grows stale from never running. And that's what happens. And so the way that we deal with that clutter is either by getting rid of it, or by liquidating it and saying, hold up. Wake up, man. Why did you buy that? Oh, do you still want to exercise?

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Okay, you don't have to get rid of it, but use it. Bring it back to life again by infusing it with your why.

• 43:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, forcing yourself to use it will also make you realize like if you pick up a book and you get through, I did this the other day. I found a book at a free library. It was from 1999. It was called The Power of Simplicity. It was a business advice book. I'm like, this title is calling to me. So I brought it on this road trip to Missoula and I read a few pages and it was a slog. And I'm like, oh, no, I don't actually want to read this. And so I donated it and I moved on because it was if I'm not going to use it, let me get rid of it. Let me liquidate it in a way. And that could be, I'm going to use, start using it, or I'm going to let it go. If I'm not willing to use it, that's a good heuristic that I might want to, to get rid of it. That's almost the end of page one.

• 44:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, we still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to, but first, real quick for right here, right now. One thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist, we already talked about it, but let me just wrap it up real quick. We just finished the 10th anniversary tour of Minimalism, our first Netflix documentary. It came out in 2016. It was a beautiful experience when that came out. And that documentary has had legs. I think 95 or 96 million people have seen it so far. You can watch it on YouTube now, by the way. We got the rights back from Netflix a couple of years ago. And you can watch it over there on YouTube right now. And you don't have to pay us anything to watch it. It's over at youtube.com/theminimalist. And so that's given it a whole new life there as well. But then we took it out to some of our favorite theaters in some states that meant a lot to us.

• 45:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So Nicodemus was born in Tennessee, so we did an event in Tennessee and at the Franklin Theater. And of course, we started The Minimalist in Dayton, Ohio. I was born in Dayton, Ohio. So we did the Neon Theater over there. And I live in Ojai, so we did the Ojai Playhouse at the end of our Simple Haven Retreat. We did an event there. And these are like some of my favorite theaters, including the Roxy Theater in Missoula, Montana, which we filmed most of Minimalism in and around Missoula, Montana, at least a lot of the interviews with me and Ryan and then of course the other segments with different people we interviewed while we were out on tour and I was just talking to Matt Diavella about it this week and minimalism itself, the concept of minimalism, the lifestyle of minimalism is making a bit of a resurgence.

• 46:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In 2026, if you look at Google Trends, it's the most popular it's been since 2016. That was the real spike, 2016, 2017, when that first documentary came out and we got to show it in theaters and it was beautiful because A, it really holds up and I think some of the problems are new. That's why we're making a new documentary called The Great De-clutter. But the film itself really holds up a decade later and seeing it on the big screen and the music makes it real emotional and Drew and Nate, who did the soundtrack for it, the music holds up really well, the emotion holds up and we showed a little preview of The Great De-clutter, a nine-minute sizzle reel before the film in each city and it got an ovation every time.

• 46:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In fact, in one city, it got a standing ovation for basically a trailer, a nine-minute trailer about the new documentary and I've had so many people talk about where they see that going because it's about the clutter beyond the clutter, which is what we touch on a bit here on the podcast. We're doing a full-length documentary about that. So if you want to check out minimalism, you can't get in theaters anymore, but you can watch it right there on your big screen TV or on your computer or your phone or tablet over on the YouTube channel. But also while we were there, Nicodemus, when he was here on the podcast, we talked about his new restaurant that he opened and we did a little grand opening celebration there, but he didn't need it at all because, well, that thing is going amazing. They have a line out the door every day. His restaurant's

• 47:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  called Sumac and he's really working at the restaurant. He's working 30, 40, 50 hours a week right now. Every time I went in there, he'd have a towel on his shoulder and if you get the bread there, he's baking the bread himself or he's rolling it out and it's all from scratch and the chef that he started this restaurant with, his name's Abe Resho, and he's like a celebrity chef locally, like not worldwide, but locally, he has a reputation. And so as soon as he and Nicodemus and they have one other business partner, they started this restaurant together and it's this It's the entrance is really hard to get into. You have to enter the restaurant from an alley. It was crazy. The first time I walked up, there was just a line of people

• 48:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  down an alley waiting to get this delicious Mediterranean food. And then when I got to taste it, it was truly remarkable. So if you find yourself in Missoula, Montana, and you want to try out Ryan's new restaurant, it's called Sumac. Make sure you leave a review when you go there. You are going to love it.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Hey, man, can I ask what was your favorite thing there?

• 48:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Uh, the domus. So it was like these grape leaves wraps. They had some lamb in them. They're really delicious. Um, he had this gluten-free bread that was, it's from Tandem Bakery, and it was amazing. Um, we did a limited taste testing menu for the event that we did, and the hummus is from scratch and delicious. The lamb that they have there, and I generally don't like lamb that much. Uh, it can be too lamb-y for me, but it was local from the Bitterroot Valley there, and Abe made it in a way that just, it was remarkable. So they have vegan options, vegetarian options, or carnivorous options there as well. Everything

• 49:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I tried was delicious. And I know that just feels like a promo, but I, there wasn't one thing where I'm like, I don't know about this. Everything was like a little bit better than the last thing.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It was so good.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  That's a, that's a good thing to be able to say about a menu. One last question, and that is, uh, what's your favorite memory from the screening?

• 49:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ooh. Um, well, one person asked me, he goes, where did you guys find TK? And I'm like, ziprecruiter.com.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  [laughing]

• 49:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In fact, this podcast is brought, no, I'm just kidding. Uh, wouldn't that be a hilarious transition?

• 49:52Speaker 02

  That'd be crazy.

• 49:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You set me up for the ZipRecruiter ad. Um, I-

• 49:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Man, I just really love Ryan and the experience of screening these together and seeing how it resonates with an audience. And some of the people, we did some impromptu polls there, and about half the people at these events had never seen the film before. And about 30% of them, this was their third or more times seeing the film. And so there was this group of enthusiastic people who wanted to see it again and see it on the big screen with the, in these amazing indie theaters. And we got to support these local indie theaters, which is really important to me. And then seeing the new people are like, this is the first time I've ever seen it. And them walking away from a 10-year-old film with the same thing that the people who watched it 10 years ago walked away with.

• 50:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I also loved the hug lines after each event because we had people coming from all over the place. There were four people from Michigan who came to Missoula at this one, which not, they didn't come together. We're talking four different people. There's a group of two, and then someone else came by themselves. And so people coming from all over the place because this is something that has resonated with them. And I'm, I feel really grateful that something we created more than a decade ago continues to resonate with so many people. All right, before we move on to page two, real quick, let's do a what would Joshua own question. This one is from Sam in Liverpool.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  Hello, my name's Sam. I'm from Liverpool in England. And I love what you guys do and appreciate everything yous are doing. And my question is for Josh. I just wanted to know where he got his new shacket from. I think it's really nice, really like nice looking, dead easy to wear. And yeah, would appreciate it if he'd let me know where he got it from. Thank you.

• 51:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, I use this word shacket all the time. It just means shirt jacket. But my wife and I use it sort of jokingly. I don't know if this is a British thing or a Liverpool thing, but calling a shirt jacket a shacket, where it's sort of that, that interstitial space between shirt or jacket. Is it a shirt? Is it a jacket? Is it both? Is it neither? And to be honest, jackets are my... Kryptonite. And I'll tell you the brand here in a moment, although because they're my kryptonite, kryptonite, I don't even know which jacket or jacket you might be talking about. So before I talk to you about the brand, I want to present a question that is really useful for me before I make any purchase,

• 52:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  especially the things I tend to overconsume like jackets. And that question is, instead of asking, do I want this? Because I know the answer to that. The answer in the moment is always yes. If I'm at Target and there's a Snickers bar, the answer is yes, I want this. That's not a useful question. Do I want this? The answer is impulse. It's yes, yes, yes. Give me, give me, give me. The more useful question for me is, does this product amplify the healthiest expression of who I want to be? How do you feel about that question? Is it useful?

• 52:57Speaker 02

  I think so, but I, I would like to reframe it.

• 53:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  There's an observation I've made about asking people questions, especially when they're not podcasters or professional commentators and things of that sort. And that is, it can be very easy for people to put a lot of pressure on themselves when the question is worded in a particular way. So for instance, if you ask someone, what's your favorite song? It's easy for some people to psych themselves out by being like, oh, I have a lot of songs I like, but favorite, right? And if you change that to what's one of your favorite songs? Oh, now that becomes easy because I can't be wrong about this. I just have to name a song that I really like. What's the most useful lesson you've learned from a past relationship? Oh, my gosh.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  I can't really know for sure that anything I say is the most useful.

• 53:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Sure.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  I'm going to think of something on the ride home that should have been said instead of that. But if you say, what's one useful lesson you've learned? Then that takes the pressure off. And I think the same could apply here too. So, does this product amplify the healthy expression of who I want to be? The healthiest? Oh, man, that's, that could be a lot of pressure. Well, let's soften it a little bit. Does this product amplify?

• 54:13Speaker 02

  The person that I want to be.

• 54:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Does it amplify my pursuit of the good life? Does it support you? Does it nudge you in that direction? Does it help you? And you want a yes to that question. And sometimes I've, I've just seen enough people get psyched out with like, is that the best version of yourself? Like, oh, I don't know if it's the best. Okay, don't worry about it. You don't, it don't have to be the best version of yourself. Is it a better version of yourself than, than where you're at right now? That's good enough. Let, let's keep moving in the direction of healthier or better. And we'll get to healthiest, we'll get to best. So I think it's useful just with that reframe.

• 54:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, the healthiest version or the best version of me is a total jacket slut. And I've just accepted it. And I, I think I have six jackets. We did a whole video on this, but I'll put a couple of photos up here on the screen. Tomcat will put them up here. The first one is a picture of me and Ryan. So I don't know which shacket he's talking about. This is a picture from a couple of months ago. We were speaking at, at Miami University and I'm wearing a Lululemon shacket that I actually got off of eBay. It was not, it was used, but it just thought it was new with tags really. So someone didn't want it for whatever reason. And so I wear that one all the time. It, it looks almost formal, so I get to, I, I get to wear it. I dress it up if I want to go to a nice restaurant or if I'm speaking on stage

• 55:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  or if I'm driving somewhere, I can wear the same jacket. It's basically a small windbreaker. It looks like a shirt. It looks like a jacket. So it's a shacket, but also right next to me is Ryan Akademas here. And you borrowed his shacket last time he was on the podcast. He's wearing it here in this photo. I think he just got it. I forget where he said he got it. It was some local, local store. So I don't know if, if Sam was talking about either one of these. There's also this other picture. Here's a picture of me sunburned. My daughter laughs every time I call my, she sees this photo and I say it's Joshua Field sunburn. And I'm wearing this really old Champion zip up. It's a full zip sweatshirt from, it's when I lived in Montana. So I've probably had it for over a decade at this point.

• 56:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I still wear it almost every day when I get up and if I need something warm, this is the first thing that I go to. And it's just a, a basic zip up. Shirt, jacket, shacket from, from Champion. For anyone else has a what would Joshua own question for the show? We'd love to hear from you. You can ask me anything about what I own. My couch, my meditation cushions, my red light, my floor bed, my foam roller, my vagus nerve stimulator, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Just email a voice memo to [email protected]. We'll feature your voice on a future episode. Now, up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 57:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that is the first 33% of episode 544. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal two hour episode. It was actually longer than two hours this time. We were really waxing philosophical, a lot of practical things we wanted to talk about. We answered a bunch of questions as well, like Ginger from Texas wants to know how to politely tell her friend to stop gifting her more Stanley cups. Plus Clayton in Denver is trying to break up with his smartphone before becoming a father, but he's struggling with the tension between digital simplicity and accumulating more analog alternatives. Also, how are some high end fashion companies using insecurity to scam you out of your money?

• 57:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All that and a million more questions and simple living segments over on the minimalist private podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Plus you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to our very first podcast episode. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields Millburn. If you leave here today with just one message, I hope it's this. Love people. And use things. Because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all.

• 58:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We'll see you next time. Peace.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.