539 | Drop Everything

The Minimalists talk about dropping everything for a fresh start, why one big change often leads to several more, a handful of questions to ask before buying anything, what we'd get rid of first if we had two hours to declutter your house, and more. Discussed in this episode: What should I do if I'm torn between staying in the life I've rebuilt or starting over somewhere new for a fresh start? (11:30) What would compel you to drop everything and move to a new city? (23:40) Right Here, Right Now: One more stop on the Minimalism Tour, and Ryan's new restaurant. (43:28) What blue blocking glasses does Joshua own? (50:54) Have a question for the show? Call 406-219-7839 or email a voice memo to [email protected]. Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist Joshua Fields Millburn here. TK Coleman over there.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  What's happening?

• 0:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, today we are joined by minimalist restaurateur, a man with great hair, an impressive jawline, exquisite taste, and a very, very Greek surname. Ryan Nicodemus is here, baby.

• 1:01Speaker 03

  Yo.

• 1:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 1:03Speaker 03

  That is the best intro ever. I'm gonna change my Twitter bio.

• 1:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can borrow it, just copy and paste. We're good to go.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  I love this.

• 1:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Nicodemus, here's something to chew on. Whatever you're clinging to is already gone. Whatever you're clinging to right now is already gone. TK, when I say that, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

• 1:28Speaker 02

  I think about that scene from The Matrix where Trinity is in that dark room and you have these five, like, you know, police officers, whatever, who've, like, cornered her and you know these guys about to get the business. They have no idea what they're up against. And Agent Smith calls the lieutenant and warns him about Trinity and he says, "Oh, Agent, I've got five guys in there. I think we'll be just fine." And he says, "No, Lieutenant, your men are already dead."

• 1:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think about that scene, man. Whatever you're clinging to, it's already dead. If you're clinging, your men are already dead, man. The life comes in holding it loosely and allowing...

• 2:10Speaker 02

  It to be what it is. You can only allow something to be what is conducive to its most flourishing state. When you hold it loosely, when you cling to it in order to control it, you suppress what makes it beautiful and valuable in the first place.

• 2:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, we just did a whole weekend this weekend. That's why Nicodemus is here. We had this minimalist retreat with 30 people up at the Ojai Art Center in Ojai, California. And the theme of that weekend is letting go. And it's so fascinating to see what we are clinging to because some people showed up. There was one woman who's like, I have these two juicers I want to let go of.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And there's someone else that says, I want to let go of my career. And someone else says, I want to let go of the resentment I have for my adult children. I want to let go of the things that I'm clinging to. And what I'm hearing from you is that anything that we're holding on to too tightly, not holding on, holding on is fine. In fact, holding on is usually pretty helpful. I can't get anywhere if I can't hold on to anything. I put butter on my hands, try to go across the monkey bars. I'm going to slip off, so I need to be able to hold on. But I also need to be able to let go. So we spent a whole weekend with these folks there. I actually took this line from an essay I wrote recently. I put out in the simple newsletter, subscribe for free if you haven't already. But it was called Nothing Ends.

• 3:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it was sort of the final, I don't know, chapter in this trilogy of essays that I wrote about my brother who died. And a couple of weeks ago, we did an episode about Jerome and sort of used that to let go. And I wrote this eulogy called Jerome was a simple man. And I wrote this thing about how he never complains. And then I wrote about his funeral more from my perspective, although I wrote the essay in second person because it was just too close to me. And so I had to write it from your perspective. So for example, and by the way, you can find this over at the minimalists.com as well. The first line is, "You are dry heaving in your rental car parked a few feet from the procession."

• 4:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And the whole thing is you, is from your perspective, because I had to sort of separate myself from it. Because by the time I got to the end of the essay, it wasn't really about the funeral. It was about the things that we cling to. And so, at the end of the essay, I wrote, "An hour later, on the other side of town, the sun breaks through the clouds. The air feels different. You think about all the things you once held so tightly." And so, we go from this rainy funeral, it was literally, it was pouring rain during this eulogy I was giving. So much so, it was like a scene from a movie. I had the paper in my hands, right? And I had all these notes written on top of the typed words. And I had written out this eulogy for his ceremony, this letting go ceremony we were doing.

• 4:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And as I start reading, the first time I mentioned his name, someone else mentioned this to me. As soon as I mentioned his name, it started raining harder. And the tent I was in, like this rain was slanting in. And all the words started washing down the page. And so, this thing I'm trying to read, I no longer had access to it. So, I just had to crumple up this wet paper mache, set it down, and just keep speaking. And after that, it was really strange, because an hour later, the sun came out. And then, I was sitting in a coffee shop on the other side of town and just sort of thinking about it. And there were three things that I thought of, several other things. But the three things I wrote in the essay were,

• 5:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  "The dream home you thought would fix everything was, in the end, just four walls and a roof." You know, things we cling to, and we put it in perspective, you're like, "This is some drywall." "I'm clinging to drywall and rocks and concrete." And that's not what I'm really clinging to. What we learned this weekend is a lot of people were clinging to the story behind whatever they were having trouble letting go of. "The career you chased for years eventually became something you felt stuck inside." I think many of the things we chase, once we get them, we're like the dog that catches the cars. Like, "What the heck am I gonna do with this now?" I really wanted, I wanted to chase this thing. I didn't want to actually.

• 6:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Acquire it. And when you get it, now you feel kinda stuck. Or maybe with the dog with chasing the car, he ends up getting run over. And I think that can happen with the career that we think we want sometimes.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And the last thing I wrote here is the kids you grew up with now have kids of their own. Their lives kept moving while you weren't looking. In fact, some of our friends have grandkids.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  That's wild.

• 6:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Remember BJ?

• 6:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He has five kids and I think one or two grandkids already. He's our age, Nicodemus.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's wild, man.

• 6:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so I, I found that like life keeps going on. And the very last line of this is nothing ends. It changes and whatever you're clinging to is already gone.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 7:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because by definition, everything is going to change. This podcast has changed. We brought TK on years ago and Malabam was here for a while. It didn't end, it just kept changing. And even when the podcast quote unquote ends, that's also a, a change as well.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There's no plans for that, but also I'm not clinging to, to anything at this point. Because every time I cling, we learned that this weekend. The more that we cling, the, the more that we get dragged by that clinging.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. When you read that, man, I thought of, uh, like when you first read it, it was one of those things that it hits me like it's so true. But I was having trouble to kinda like understand like why it's true. But what came up for me is, um, relationships. Like I think about relationships that were over, you know, uh, women that like, um, I really wanted it to work out with. It just wasn't working. And when it wasn't working, I just clinged. I just held on and, and clung to the relationship. And, uh, the same thing with my job, like you just mentioned. It's like, I knew it was over, but man, I was clinging. I don't know why, why that's the reaction. It's like, we're too, we're too scared to let go. So instead of just letting go, instead of just admitting like, okay, this isn't serving me anymore.

• 8:18Speaker 03

  There's like a fear reaction of like, oh, just hold on even tighter. It, it can't leave me.

• 8:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  Or I'm supposed to want this. That's the thing for me, like.

• 8:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Other people would kill to be in this position. And that is true, and I don't want to discount that, right?

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But then as soon as they get in that position, they may feel very similarly to us, or they may not, and that's okay as well. But there's something about the, uh, I also think there's something about the clinging that ruins the thing, right? It's, uh, needing it so bad, like, oh, I need this, I need this, I need this, this is an energy. I was at the farmer's market, we, we brought some of the Simple Haven folks, Kat is here with us today, we brought some of the Simple Haven folks to the Ojai Farmer's Market Sunday morning, and, um, there was a guy who came up to me, he's like, hey, Minimalist guy, we've met before, and, uh, I have two business cards I want to give you, and, and, and like, I, I totally understand where he was coming from, and, and I hope this doesn't come from

• 9:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  a place of judgment, but I felt an energy there where it was like, I need a particular outcome. And the reason I feel that energy is because that's often my energy inside, like, I, I really hope that this happens, and I'm signing a contract with myself that says, if that happens, I'm allowed to be happy, but until then, I, I will cease to be happy until I get the outcome that I want.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, there's, uh, there's the old idea of, of trying to capture the muse so that you can always retain inspiration, but whenever anyone successfully captures and imprisons the muse, they realize something, that they have the body of the muse, but they lack the spirit of the muse. In order to receive the spirit of the muse, you have to let the muse be free and inspire whoever it wills. And it's similar with situations, relationships, people, and things. What makes us come alive is our interaction with the spirit or the essence of the, of the thing. And when we imprison that thing, when we cling to it, we attach ourselves to it, because we prioritize control over the possibilities of uncertainty, we, we kill the life of it, you know?

• 10:25Speaker 02

  And it becomes something other than what it was that made us happy.

• 10:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, in some ways, to control is to cling as well. Well, you can tweet that, Professor Sean. You know, we got a lot to talk about today, gentlemen. We're talking about dropping everything for a fresh start. Why one big change often leads to several more changes. We also have a handful of questions to ask before you buy anything and much, much more. Also, Nicodemus, on page three, I have this list here. If you gave the minimalist the keys to your house and just two hours to declutter, we're going to tell you what we would get rid of first. So let's start with the callers, 406-219-7839. If you want to join the program, that is our phone number, or you can just send a voice recording right

• 11:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  from your phone to [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber when you call in. Oh, by the way, shout out to our patrons. Your support keeps this podcast 100% advertisement free because sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Yeah. All right. Our first question today is from Steph.

• 11:32Speaker 04

  Steph here from Melbourne, Australia. I'm a Patreon subscriber. I've also been listening to your shows for years and I have just become absolutely obsessed with them. My question is a little bit of a tricky one. I recently left a 10-year relationship, which was good at the start, had two beautiful boys, but unfortunately turned pretty bad in domestic violence due to gambling and addiction. I've now been left with the house that I own and a business that is thriving. I'm a hairdresser. But the problem is, even though I've decluttered my whole life, the trauma he caused me just makes me sort of

• 12:17Speaker 04

  want to run. I've been given the opportunity to move to another state. It would mean selling my house and losing my business, but then moving for a fresh start. I just would really like to say what you guys thought would be a good option. Your advice would be amazing. I really just don't want to do a disservice to my kids, but I think a fresh start would be so good. Thank you so much for all your amazing things you do on the show. I really adore you guys.

• 12:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So Steph wants a fresh start. Where does she start to find that fresh start?

• 12:55Speaker 03

  Man, that's heavy. Yeah, sorry. Uh, sorry about your situation there, Steph. That that is a tough one. I mean, I do, I do think that when we experience something so traumatic like Steph described here, um, the immediate reaction can be to run, to run away from it. And sometimes you gotta run away, right? I mean,

• 13:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If someone's chasing you.

• 13:17Speaker 03

  That's exactly it. Sometimes you gotta run. Sometimes, um, maybe that's the, the flight is the first response, but man, if we don't know what we're running towards, I mean, that, that could just, uh, set up a whole new set of problems. I mean, Steph is dealing with trauma. Wherever Steph goes to, the trauma is going to follow her.

• 13:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  And so it's not about, um, you know, the city doesn't define who you are. It's, it's, it's the challenges in your life. Like those are the things and how you face them. Like that's going to define who you are in this situation, Steph. There's nothing wrong with moving. There's nothing wrong with staying. If there's a compelling reason to move in the sense of there's new opportunity, you can clearly see what you're running towards, then go for it. But to run away from a city simply because that was the place in which something traumatic happened to you, um, I would be careful with that.

• 14:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. Remember the Kendrick line? You thought the money, the power, the fame would make you go away? I think the same thing is often true with geography, at least in my own life. It's like, well, if I just move to a new city, then I won't be there anymore. Like my problems, my issues. And, and I think sometimes that's true. So TK, I wrote down this maxim for Steph. Maybe you can help me unpack it. Tell me if you agree with it or if you'd append it in any way. Geography won't fix you, but it might free you. I was trying to channel my inner TK Coleman with that one. So geography won't fix you. Simply by moving, you won't be fixed, but it may free you to become the person you want to become.

• 14:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And that's why this is delicate and there's not a simple answer. Well, yeah, of course you move to X city. I think there's a lot more to consider than that.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you, you, we, we've talked about this quite a bit and even some this weekend. How I grew up in an environment where that was talked about a lot. No matter where you go, you will still be you. And you can't use geography as a way of escaping the realities of who you are. And I do believe that, but there's absolutely more to the story. Sometimes changing your external conditions, like the city where you live, the home where you live, the people that you're around, might be the easiest and best way for you to facilitate other kinds of interior changes that are important to you. Sometimes it's easier to establish a new rhythm of life, a new pattern of behavior, a new way of seeing and thinking, just by putting yourself in a new space.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  And so there's nothing wrong with staying, but there's also nothing wrong with going, nothing wrong with going somewhere else. And, and sometimes a fresh start can be exactly what you need to breathe a new energy into your life. So when I hear you say, geography won't fix you, but it might free you. What that means to me is, hey, moving into a new space isn't going to transform your life independently of how you leverage the opportunity. On the other hand, moving into a new space can be the permission slip you need to unlock new possibilities in your life. And I love the energy of a fresh start. I don't think you need to know all the details about what will happen next in order to have the permission to do it. I think it could be helpful to, to, to just sort of write down,

• 16:36Speaker 02

  what, what are some things I am hoping to feel or experience, discover or do as a result of that fresh start? And that can maybe help you get, get a clearer picture of, of what those priorities look like and how they compare to what you have. I, I forget who it was. I believe it was W E B Du Bois, who said something to the effect that we must always be willing to abandon where we are in order to discover what we can become. And that there's something powerful about being willing to look at your life and say, you know, I, I know what I'll get if I continue down this path, but I'm gonna bet on myself, my capacity to improv, my capacity to create,

• 17:21Speaker 02

  and I'm gonna look at what I have as an expression of my power, not as the source of my power. I have what I have because I'm the one who created it. I don't have what I have because it created me. And so if I need to go somewhere else and get a new start, I can recreate this or create something even better if my energy is in a good place. Life is about energy. It's not just about what you have, it's about your energy. And for me, I like to make my choices based on where can I place myself so that I'm in alignment with the energy of my full aliveness? Because if I'm there, I can recreate or create more effectively what it is I need around me.

• 17:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. One thing we need to understand here, a couple of things you're, you're bringing up. So one is a, a time-tested maxim from us from way back in the day is, um, a willingness to let go is life's most mature virtue. Now, Because you're willing to let go, it doesn't mean you have to let go. And I think sometimes you get freed up if you're willing to move away from the city you live in. And then you don't move because then you're making a deliberate choice to stay in that city for at least a period of time. However, what you're saying also resonates with me. There was a line that recurs in the novel I wrote back in my twenties called As a Decade Fades.

• 18:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The line was, well, the novel's about this young, famous singer songwriter who moves from Dayton, Ohio to Brooklyn, New York to try to rediscover himself for the fresh start. Because everything sort of comes tumbling down in his personal life. And the line in the novel that recurs several times is, sometimes a man has to go away in order to come back. And literally, that is a tautology. And of course, you have to go away to come back. But like, in order to be the best version of yourself that you feel like you've lost here, I might have to go away to find me again in a new context.

• 19:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In order to come back as that version of myself, it's rediscovering myself in a new place. And so, yes, the geography won't fix you, but it might free you. Practically, I will say that it's also about what aligns with your values and the person that you want to become. What about the city right now serves you, that you're in right now? What serves you really well? And for Steph, it's like, well, yeah, I have a home here. I wouldn't have to relocate and sell the house and buy a new one. And who knows about the market fluctuations and price? And I don't have to worry about that. Okay, that's helpful. You also have a business, a successful business, you said. You have clients, you're a hairdresser.

• 20:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So you've built this clientele, but also part of that clientele is a community you've tapped into. You've got a home that's in a community. You have clients in our community. I'm sure you have friends, family, other people there in the community. And so you're tapped into that. And you might be leaving that behind. I'm not telling you not to, but I think these are things worth considering. And then the flip side of that is, okay, I want to move to Los Angeles, California. Cool. Well, why? What's so compelling about that? I know when Ryan and I first moved to LA, it was like, oh, we've been doing this thing with Netflix. This is where people go to tell stories. We could bring people into the podcast. We could build a podcast studio there for a period of time. And that was all interesting to us. And that was, I think, the most compelling reason to come here.

• 20:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But I think the reason I've stayed so long is like, I really like the community and I like the weather, to be frank. Like, I like the access. As a minimalist, I don't have to own a bunch of things, but I can access different things. You know, Kat took an Uber here today. That's harder if you're living in rural Montana. We were out in the cabin in the middle of nowhere, no Uber showing up there. Nope. And so what do you value about the new place that you may not be able to get in there? And you can't, you won't be able to answer this simply with a pro and con list, but I find that by writing these things down, I start to identify the, what are the emotional triggers that are pushing me away from this place? Or is there something that's pulling me to this new place? If it's pulling me to the new place, that's a sign I might want to try it out. But because of course, if you go away, you can always come back.

• 21:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Not in identical circumstances, but you can come back to the town that you're familiar with. In fact, you might have a newfound appreciation for it. That essay I was reading from you earlier, there was a line, I was driving to the funeral service, and the line I wrote is, "Your hometown looks familiar, but the details are foreign. On the drive to the cemetery, you passed by your first retail job. The storefront is now a kung fu studio. Your elementary school is gone, your favorite ice cream shop too. The abandoned homes that once dotted your block have been replaced by a coming soon sign, announcing a future community center." And so, yeah, it's still the same town, but is it?

• 22:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Like, the storefronts, the buildings there, but the stores are different, right? And so, but you still feel the essence. In a weird way, it felt like home, but it felt like I'd gone home and someone had redecorated the interior of my house. And so there was a familiarity, but also there was a foreignness that I wasn't used to. And I think sometimes we actually look for that foreignness. That's why we want to go away. I want some novelty. I want some variety. I'm so used to this. Maybe there's some variety on the other side of this. Steph, I'd love to give you a copy of our book, Everything That Remains. It was just a 10 year anniversary of that book recently and we put a brand new cover on it. That's the story of Ryan and I relocating, dropping everything for a fresh start.

• 22:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We moved from Ohio to a cabin in the middle of nowhere, Montana. The plan was for five months. We ended up staying for like five years and Ryan, you met your wife there and you're back in Montana now, or maybe you're forward in Montana now?

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Would you, would you say, and let's save this for the, the, think about this, we'll save this for the question of the week, but, but I'm wondering if going quote unquote, back to Montana, if there were parts that felt foreign and new and it took maybe getting away from there to come back to appreciate a little bit more.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  Talk about that.

• 23:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, for sure. So Steph, we'll give you a copy of Everything That Remains. If you want the book book or the ebook version, we'll be happy to send those to you. Or the audiobook version is available as well. Everything That Remains, a memoir from the minimalist. All right, the question of the week this week. Oh, I like this one. It ties into Steph's question perfectly. TK, before we get back to these callers, let's, uh, let's lightly saute this question of the week, since we have our restaurateur here. We'll, we'll talk about the restaurateur experience here on the Right Here, Right Now segment. But first, here is the question of the week. What would compel you to drop everything and move to a new city?

• 24:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What would compel you to drop everything and move to a new city? Let's check in with our Patreon community chat, see what they had to say. Heath says, well, I'm just getting started on my minimalism journey. I think the right career opportunity would be all it would take for me. I still have a family to support, so as long as that is covered, a fresh start would be a breath of fresh air. Also, literal fresh air would be a requirement. I know, I wrote down this other maxim, this isn't my pithy answer for this, but I thought it applied to Heath. Necessity is the mother of relocation. Now, you get to decide what is the necessity here, and sometimes you get offered this great job.

• 24:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Our friend Ken Coleman, TK's, I think, relative cousin, maybe, brother?

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, my cousin.

• 24:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, okay.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  First cousin.

• 24:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes. Our friend Ken Coleman, he just announced he's leaving Ramsey Solutions. He announces publicly because he got a big marketing job, but it's completely different. And for him, he doesn't have to move to a new state, but I know he would have to take on this opportunity. And so, for him, it was following the opportunity that brought him to a new place. And that's often what happens, you're following as opposed to being pushed away from where you are, which TK, Heath is sort of pointing towards something that you recently discovered yourself, that relocation is often a jumpstart for a minimalist journey. You relocated here, what, four years ago?

• 25:40Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 25:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. And so, tell me about the lessons from that that might apply to Heath or the question of the week here.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, first, my question to you is, if I took over the Ken Coleman Show, how long would it take for people to realize the host changed?

• 25:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Probably three or four years.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 25:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It'd be seamless.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  I'd just say, Mr. Coleman is back.

• 26:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You'll get the DMs that we get now, where it's like, uh, where's Ryan?

• 26:09Speaker 02

  They're like, why didn't Ryan Nicodemus go join Ramsey? Yeah, man, you know, moving here, it's interesting because there's that old saying, a prophet is never without honor except in his own country. There's also the old saying that familiarity breeds contempt. There's something about being in a space where everyone thinks they know you, they think they've got you figured out, and you have these habitual roles that you play in those spaces. When you leave and you go to a new environment, you just find it more natural, more easy to experiment with things that maybe didn't characterize your old self.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  And it can be easy to underestimate just how much we internalize. Identities that don't belong to us, but they're based on expectations. They're based on past experiences, roles that we're accustomed to playing. And I think moving out here has been a context that has allowed me to flourish in a lot of different ways, precisely because no one really knew what to expect. And when people don't know what to expect, it's almost like you can do anything.

• 27:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, I noticed that this weekend at the Simple Haven, when people told me afterwards, I showed up with no expectations and that's what made this so outstanding. And what that also made me learn is that as we cling to expectations, it sort of gets in the way of the joy of the experience itself. TK, Ryan TK has reminded me of, we lived in and around Dayton, Ohio for most of our, well, all of our childhood, most of our childhood, your childhood, and then all throughout our twenties and even early thirties. And we never used to go to the Air Force Museum. That's like the most popular Air Force Museum in the world, but now it's like every time we go back, I will go there because you have the permission to explore.

• 28:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're a tourist in your hometown when you go back, which brings me to Lee's point here. Lee said divorce compelled me to drop everything and move to a new city. Lee says divorce compelled me, I just minimized fully and moved from the suburbs to a city location with parks and gardens and a lot more culture. But this fresh start also comes with fresh challenges. It's a little scary going back to solo living. Ryan, maybe you can help us discuss, A, why fresh starts can be so scary and/or B, why major life events like divorce often lead to other big changes.

• 28:46Speaker 03

  Man, you know, I guess like when it comes to a divorce, I could see where someone would want a fresh start, especially like the smaller the community. It's like you walk into the coffee shop and you know, like the baristas looking at you like, oh, man, sorry to hear about your divorce and you know, like you got. People that you're just who's used to seeing you married, now you're not. And now you've got this story of being the divorced guy. And I could see where someone would want to go somewhere where they don't have a label slapped on them.

• 29:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, people keep handing them things to hold on to and they don't want to hold on to. But in the new city, they're not going to get handed those things.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  Right, exactly, man. I mean, I could, I could totally see that. And so having a fresh start, like, um, yeah, with a new identity, you know, that kind of makes sense, man. Yeah, the challenge is, I mean, I, I loved when we moved to Phillipsburg. Like, I didn't really find it challenging at all, man. I mean, maybe at first, because I'm an extrovert, so I had to find, uh, you know, places to meet people. And when, how many people in Phillipsburg, like 600 people or something?

• 29:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, 800 or something like that.

• 29:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, like it's 100,000 people. So there was really only like, uh, a couple of spots, um, you know, and at the time I was drinking. So it was like, you know, you go to the bar and you have a beer and like you can meet some locals and like that. I make friends really easy, man. That was, that was pretty easy. But, um, but yeah, so for me, like an extrovert, it's not hard for me to, to go to a new place, be by myself and like figure it out, man. And there is a, there's a challenge, um, that I really enjoy with that. But you know, the key is, is like, even with a fresh start, um, you really do have to know why you are taking that fresh start and what you're going to do with that fresh start. So when we moved to Phillipsburg, it wasn't like, well, we just need a fresh start.

• 30:30Speaker 03

  It did help, um, because, uh, yeah, it needed a new change of scenery. But we got to Phillipsburg, we knew we wanted to write a book. We knew we wanted to, um, have, have access to, to the outdoors, to the nature. Uh, we were able to do that. I was able to, um, you know, be right next to a snowboarding hill. So there were so many things that like, I knew with the fresh start, I knew what I was starting.

• 30:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. There was also something like, it was super temporary about it, which made it freeing. It didn't feel like I had to be there forever. It was five months. And then we ended up moving to the, the big city, Missoula, which was like 70,000 people there. We found ourselves gravitating toward it. I, I'm thinking now though, Ryan, it would have been much more interesting if you and TK had moved there.

• 31:14Speaker 03

  We moved to this cabin on the side of a mountain, right outside of this little town called Phillipsburg, as he mentioned. And there were like, the only thing that was there, five bars, five churches.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  And I'm imagining the sitcom or reality TV show where TK is dragging Ryan to church and then Ryan's dragging TK to the bar and um.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  The funny part is neither one of us is dragging each other.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  No.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  We're just going to the bar and then church and then the bar afterwards.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  I don't know if we would have been like, good influences or bad influences on each other, man.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  But I want to see this show.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  That would have been wild.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  That's the point. I don't know what's going to happen, but I want to find out.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  It's interesting, man. Like, moving to Phillipsburg, if I'd have moved, if I'd have moved to Phillipsburg by myself, like, I don't know if it would have been such a great decision, man. But it's like, almost having you as a roommate and like, having the focus of a book. And um, you know, as an introvert, like, I had to, you know, be a little quiet at night. Um, I really went out of my way to keep things tidy. And so, um, you know, a part of that fresh start was like, living with you. And thank God, man, because like, I don't know, I don't know how it would have turned out if I was by myself. I think about, like, moving to LA. If I moved to LA TK when I was 25 years old, this city would have chewed me up and spit me out, dude. You'd have found me in like, West Hollywood, like, covered in glitter in a gutter or something.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  But you probably would have got an Oscar, too.

• 32:43Speaker 03

  Probably would have got, maybe, man.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  That would have been the role he was playing.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  But yeah, man, I mean, yeah, just thinking about, because yeah, moving to LA, that was a major relocation. Moving to Phillipsburg, that was a major relocation. Moving back or forward, I guess, uh, to Missoula, um, that was a major relocation. But every time that I've done this, like, there was a plan on what I was doing. So like, just going back to like, you know, Steph, it's like, sometimes the answer is to move and to have a fresh start. But you gotta have a plan. You gotta know why you're doing it. You can't just expect to be like, well, I have these problems here. I'm gonna drop everything. I'm gonna move somewhere else, uh, and then, and then figure. It out, but like, I forget who just talked about how the new challenges.

• 33:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, Lee.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, Lee was talking about, yeah, there's also new challenges. And so you gotta expect like, yeah, maybe you leave these challenges behind, but you're gonna have new challenges. But having, having a, a plan to do something with that fresh start. We moved to Phillipsburg to write a book. We moved to LA because we wanted to do podcasts and we wanted to have a documentary. I moved back to Missoula because I wanted to be closer to family. I wanted to be, you know, in the mountains more, not that there aren't mountains here.

• 33:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What mountains?

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Right, exactly. Inside joke. I want, I wanted to, to, you know, do some things, have some projects on my own. And, you know, like now I'm opening that restaurant. But man, um, I just, uh, yeah, I just, I could see though, a young Ryan Nicodemus, 25 years old, who would just be like, oh, man, I'd sure screwed everything up in here in Dayton. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna go out to LA and see what happens.

• 34:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We're gonna go to LA and screw up everything out there. And so the, I guess the way I would summarize that is relocation is nicer than dislocation. And so that's a, just a reframing of the way that you said it is sometimes like if I'm running away from something, that's like a dislocation. I need to remove myself from this immediately. As opposed to relocation is something I have a compelling reason to do.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Wait, wait, wait. Let me push back on this just a little bit.

• 34:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Please.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Okay. So it's all contextual, right? I, I think running away is a perfectly appropriate thing. Running away from your problems isn't, is a perfectly appropriate thing in certain contexts. If, if you're stuck in a trap, by all means, try to run away, try to escape. I don't think the words escape and run away are inherently bad, right? I remember many years ago, I sat on the plane next to this lady and she had her little son. I mean, this is pre gray hair TK, back in the day, I was smooth then, man.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  But we were talking in, um, in the city that we were traveling to, I was asking her, is that where she from and so on? And she said, she told me the story of where she was from, which was not connected to that city at all. And just a traumatic past that she had. And she said, one day she knew she needed a change. And in an emotional moment, she sat there with her son and pulled out a map and he's he's a little baby. And and she said that um she decided that wherever they point that they were just gonna move to that city. And and and her her little son took their their fingers together. And they pointed to a place. It's a place she had never been. And she was like, that's where I'm going. And they went there and this woman loved her life and she just talked about how much she had been healing and how good things were for her and her son to have that fresh start.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  I know for me, there are these moments in life where I can say, I need to get out of here.

• 36:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Because I know that where I'm at is killing me. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go way over there. And the reason I'm picking that location is because it's far away from here and it makes the people here have a difficult time accessing me. I have no idea what's going on over there. I have no plan for what's going on over there. I know that there are problems over there, but the problems ain't y'all. So I'm gonna go over there and I trust me because when I get into that new space and I'm not in this space, I'm gonna go within and see whatever it is I need to see. And that might involve staying there. It might involve coming back. It might involve going to a new place. And so I do think it's important to be as mindful as possible, to be as intentional as possible. But sometimes you just know that you need to be in a space where you can hear yourself think and you can hear from your soul.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  And sometimes that's a good enough plan. I'm just gonna get out of here so I can get to a place where I can hear my own voice. And then I'll know what to do from there. But you don't need to have like a business plan. Or you don't need to have like a, you know, have it all in detail.

• 37:07Speaker 03

  No, man. But like we said earlier, it's like if someone's chasing you, you gotta run. I mean, if I'm a, if I'm a prisoner of war

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  in a camp and I got an opportunity to escape, I'm not gonna be like, well, hold on a second.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Am I going to the right place?

• 37:21Speaker 03

  Am I going to the right place? And what's cool about that story about um that woman and her son, she get appointed anywhere. Anyway, like it sounded like her situation was so bad.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  I mean, no matter where she moved to, I don't even know what, you know, you didn't mention the city that she moved to, but it could have been anywhere. And I guarantee you, like, she would have had a much better life just escaping

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  the the the position that she was in. So, yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, that's the beauty of life. Like, there is no, there's no rules that, there's always an exception to the rule. And when there isn't an exception to the rule, it ain't a rule. You know, and so there's no rule to this staying or leaving, coming or going. It's just, you know, making sure we're doing it for the right reasons. And when you're forced into it, when you gotta escape, get the heck out of there.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  How about you listeners? What would compel you to drop everything and move to a new city? Let us know your thoughts in the comments. All right, I got my minimal maxim ready. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox every Monday. If you sign up for our free email newsletter at theminimalists.com. That's a simple newsletter. I also give you a new essay, a new writing about something that I've been dealing with, or one of us has been dealing with, or we're helping you let go of something that we've realized recently. We'll never send you spam or junk or ads with that simple newsletter, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity.

• 38:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay, give me something pithy TK. What would compel you to drop everything and move to a new city?

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Belonging is not a place, it's a people. Man, I used to think about dream homes all the time. I used to buy those dream home magazines and I used to think, oh, it would be so great to have like a $10 million beach house over here to have a home in Costa Rica. And now all I can think about if I imagine myself in those types of places is who would our friends be? Where would we go to church? What would it feel like to go to the park? Who are our people? What does that look like? I think about in the movie Devil's Advocate where Keanu Reeves plays the young up and coming lawyer who moves to like the big city and his career is flourishing and everything is amazing. Meanwhile, at home, his wife is losing his mind. She doesn't have a support network, a community, any friends. And what

• 39:34Speaker 02

  he's coming home to is a war zone that's even more work than his work. And one of the questions I ask myself, man, is who am I coming home to? And what is my environment doing to the people that I'm coming home to? Because those are, that's my life right there. My life is my family. It's not the city that I live in. It's not where I take the train. It's not where I go to work. It's what am I coming home to? And what is that environment doing to them? So the thing that would make me drop everything and move somewhere other than where I am is a promising community that positions me and my people in a place where we can truly flourish and feel like we belong.

• 40:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Man, how about you Nicodemus? What's pithy?

• 40:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really, that really resonated with me. One of the reasons why I chose Missoula, like the people are just... Yeah, awesome there, man. Oh, my pithy answer is this dropping everything doesn't mean dropping the important things. So when, you know, when I read this question, I'm like, I don't really agree with like, just dropping everything. I understand, you know, it's, it's just an idiom. Because it is true, like, you don't want to drop it. You're gonna take your kids with you. You know, no matter, you know, the traumas that you have, those are going to go with you. So like, going back to Steph's question, like, she's got that traumatic experience that happened with her, like, she can't drop that. Moving to a new place doesn't mean she drops that trauma. So when it comes to that, it's like, you're gonna bring that important thing with you.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  The question is, how are you gonna deal with that trauma when you move to the new place? How are you gonna deal with it right now? But the location does not, relocating does not relocate trauma.

• 41:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. And so what you really talk about when you drop everything, it's dropping everything you no longer want.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And carrying forward. That was a nice thing. When we left the corporate world, I could carry forward the things I still enjoyed from that without needing to hold on to all of it. My pithy answer is pretty simple. Same self, new soil. I mean, it's just really a play on wherever you go, there you are. Or wherever you go, your misery will follow you. Of course, if you don't have that misery that you're clinging to, then it can't follow you if you don't have the thing to bring forward. But I think it's worth keeping in mind that like, yeah, you'll have some new soil, but you will still be there. And if you're not happy with who you are, then changing the circumstances won't change. But if you are happy with who you are, and the circumstances are imprisoning you, yeah, maybe it makes sense to have a fresh

• 41:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  start in a new location. I've certainly done it. We've all, everyone recording this, we've all done that. And it's been really beneficial for us to have a fresh start in these new locations. And so when TK pushed back earlier, I, to me, I think we were still saying the same thing, though, right? You added some nuance there.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  I had to pretend like it was a pushback, though, correct? Ain't nobody gonna listen if we're not fighting.

• 42:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Fight, fight, fight.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  We gotta make this podcast juicy.

• 42:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because when I say relocation is nicer than dislocation, I think about that guy who was climbing, he got stuck and he cut his arm off. Now, we know it'd be nicer to not cut his arm off and just get out of the rock somehow. Do you know this story?

• 42:34Speaker 03

  No.

• 42:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He, so do you remember this guy's name, Sean? The guy who, it doesn't matter, but like, we, we will.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  There's a movie about it.

• 42:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, there is.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  It's a good movie, yeah.

• 42:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so he was stuck, he was rock climbing by himself out in the middle of nowhere and his arm got stuck between these two rocks. And he's like, I'm stuck. He thought he was gonna die. And then he's like, I don't want to die. I'm gonna need to dislocate. Now, it'd be nicer to just relocate himself, but I need, he used a pocket knife and severed his entire arm off with, having a belt as a tourniquet and slowly cut his own arm off so he could continue to live. And some, as a metaphor, sometimes we have to do that and, and we have to dislocate from where we are. We have to escape, I guess what he was doing. But it sure would be nicer to just relocate without needing to dislocate.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to, but first, real quick for right here, right now, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. We have one more tour stop on the Minimalism 2026 Tour. We're gonna be in Missoula, Montana, Nicodemus.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  On Saturday, June 6th, we have a matinee showing of our documentary, Minimalism, a documentary about the important things. It's the 10 year anniversary, directed by Matt Diavella. Our friends Drew and Nate did the music. They formed a band called VVE. And we watched it last night in Ojai, California, and it really holds up. It's such an amazing.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  Incredible.

• 44:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so we've been doing this little tour of four different cities that are four states that mean a lot to us. Tennessee, Ryan was born in Tennessee, Ohio, we started The Minimalists in Dayton, Ohio, and that's where we did a screening there. And then, of course, Ojai, I live in Ojai now, we were doing a retreat there. And then Ryan is in Missoula, and a lot of the film was also filmed in Missoula. And so we're doing a screening there at the Roxy Theater in Missoula. Feel free to join us at 1:00 PM on June Six, it's your last chance to see minimalism and a new surprise film that I'm not going to spoil here. But we have, uh, we have the beginning of a surprise film we want to share with you on the big screen. You can get your tickets at theminimalists.com/tour.

• 44:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And while you're there, if you're just coming to Missoula, if you're already in Missoula, the very next day on June 7th at 3pm, Ryan is going to host a official grand opening for our audience of his new restaurant space called Sumac. Tell us a bit about this restaurant, Ryan.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  It's a Mediterranean cafe. Um, we're talking shawarma and hummus and pitas and shakshuka and sog and tom. And I mean, this, it's, it's a banger of a restaurant, let me tell you. So Abraham Resho, he was a chef at this, well, he's, yeah, he's been a chef for many years. There was this restaurant his family had called The Silk Road. It was Josh and I's like favorite restaurant when we first moved to Missoula. It's a tapas place. It had masaman curry at like just randomly at this tapas place. And it was just a little masaman, uh, you know, serving, but man, it was, it was so good. And I just remember like eating that food and thinking, God, like whoever is making this is an amazing human being.

• 45:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  An artist.

• 45:47Speaker 03

  An artist. Yeah. And so, um, you know, Missoula's a small enough town. I got to meet Abe eventually. That restaurant had, had shut down because the landlord like sold the building and you know, yada, yada, yada. They couldn't, they couldn't keep it anymore. The Silk Road still does catering and spices. Like you can find the Silk Road spices like in any grocery store and across the country. But yeah, he's kind of been hopping around from place to place, um, doing chef stuff. And finally he came to me about a year ago and he's like, Ryan, he's like, I want to do my own restaurant, man. Like I'm, I'm tired of hopping around. And he was like, I want to make the food that I want to make. And he, um, has a lot of, uh, Middle Eastern DNA, uh, Syrian and Lebanese and, uh, Jewish. And I mean, he's got a little bit of everything. So.

• 46:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, man, he can meet with this concept. It's like a very fast casual type dining, you know, Chipotle style where you walk in, you pick your base, you pick your meat, you pick your toppings, or you can, you know, do a pita, you can do a salad. But yeah, like, we are so freaking excited, man. There's one other kind of Mediterranean place in Missoula right now, and it's okay. Like, I don't want to sit here and put it down.

• 46:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, it sucks. This is the only place to go.

• 46:53Speaker 03

  Well, Josh said it, I didn't.

• 46:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, I don't even remember where they are.

• 46:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a new, it's a new place. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's fine. Um, but this is just, what I love about Missoula is how it has a diverse food culture. Like, it is crazy how, you know, we've got Indian, we've got Thai food, we got sushi, and now we've got like a legit Mediterranean place. The other place I'm talking about, I don't have to sit here and promote it and name it, but it doesn't, it just doesn't fill the need like, like, like it should when it comes to the Mediterranean food. Have you ever heard of shakshuka? You know what shakshuka is? Okay, I've never heard of that until I met Abe. No. So, do you know what shakshuka is? It's basically like a, um, it's, it's a tomato, uh, like stew essentially where, that the egg

• 47:41Speaker 03

  gets cooked in, and you kind of have like a bread that you dip in there. And it's a very, very popular dish over, over in the Middle East, man, but.

• 47:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's freaking delicious.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I'm allergic to eggs, but I think I'm gonna eat it anyway. Like, sometimes it's just worth it.

• 47:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're not gonna go to like anaphylactic shock or anything?

• 48:00Speaker 03

  No, no, I just get dandruff. That's what happens when I eat eggs.

• 48:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Sounds like it's worth it to me.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  Totally. It doesn't hurt, it's just embarrassing. But no, man, we are so excited to open this place, and I hope to see y'all there on the 7th at 3pm, June 7th.

• 48:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, come to both. Uh, come to the screening on June 6th. There's still a few tickets left. It's a smaller theater, so that'll sell out. But, uh, and then we're gonna go over to Ryan's Restaurant on June 7th at 3pm. You can find the details to the tour stop over at theminimalists.com/tour. We hope to see you there. Savvy D, we have one of these what would Joshua own questions. So, Ryan, we started this new, um, segment recently, and this was gonna- Going to be the first unveil and we're gonna have to save it for page two for the sake of time. So I started this new segment called WWJO. I even wore a bracelet in there and I had one of those WWJD bracelets, but it was kind of, it was weirdly printed. So the D kind of looked like an O.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 48:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And because you know, we get questions all the time. People are always DMing or, or calling in or whatever. Hey, what brand of black t-shirt do you own? Or, hey, what kind of sunglasses do you have? Or tell me about the soap that you use in your home? Or what, what's your modernist couch? What, what brand do you use? And people ask about the cleaners in your house? Or what kind of rug do you have? And, and what kind of lighting do you recommend? Whatever it is. And for the longest time, that question drove me crazy. Cause like, you're missing the point of minimalism. It's not about the stuff. But in a way, it is about the stuff of letting go of the things that get in the way. And, and I thought they were looking for questions about what should I buy? But most people

• 49:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  are looking like, hey, I'm looking for this thing and I trust you. And so I was wrong about that. I, I, I wanted to recognize that by bringing a segment in that I was a little uncomfortable with at first because we have people calling in, like we have a question here from Andrew coming up. We'll answer it on page two. But his question is about something that I own in my house and I wanna, I wanna talk about that. And we'll also talk about some questions to ask yourself before you buy anything because I think that's important. If anyone else has a WWJO question, what would Joshua own for the show? Send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next,

• 50:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 50:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all. That's the first 33% of episode 539. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two hour maximal edition with Ryan Nicodemus, which includes answers to a bunch more questions like Marty is overwhelmed by clutter and wonders if it's okay to just throw everything away instead of donating or selling it. Also Olivia wants to know if our all black wardrobe extends to everything, including jeans, underwear, shoes and jackets, apparently.

• 50:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Also, Ginny wants to know if putting her husband in his place is considered decluttering. Plus a million more questions and Simple Living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to the very first episode, Ryan, when we were in that janitor's closet in Montana in 2015. Classic. You can find that on Patreon as well, and it'll show up in your regular podcast feed when you subscribe. Shout out to Ryan Nicodemus for joining us today. Give him a round of applause, y'all.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, thanks for having me.

• 51:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Come see him at his new restaurant, Sumac, in Missoula, Montana. We're gonna do that grand opening on June 7th. We'll do the screening the day before that. But even if you can't be there then, if you plan on coming through Montana, make sure you stop by Sumac. And I know Ryan would love to give you a hug. He'll have to draw his hands because he'll be washing dishes. And then, yeah, he'll give you a hug. Or maybe it'll be, you know, a hug with some wet hands. That's okay, too.

• 52:04Speaker 03

  Yes. You can also go to RyanNicodemus.com and sign up for my newsletter. I send a few of those out a year still. It's, you know, it's going. But yeah, sign up for that and see me at Sumac.

• 52:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  RyanNicodemus.com. That is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of RyanNicodemus.com, TK Coleman and Audio Ben, Professor Sean is here, Tom, Spire Jeff, and Dave, Savvy D. on the board. We also had Kat from Simple Haven here. Shout out to her. And at Simple Haven, we saw Bonnie from Accounting. She hung out there the whole time with us. She was donating her time to help all of our guests feel outstanding. Shout out to Bonnie as well. My name's Joshua Fields-Millburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all.

• 52:53Speaker 03

  We'll see you next time.

• 52:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Peace.