536 | Good Enough Home

The Minimalists speak with Katy Joy Wells about setting the emotional stage in your home to make it feel more peaceful, uncovering your happy place amid the chaos, finding silence in a noisy world, getting rid of clothes we're unsure about, 15 ridiculous things that society still accepts as normal, and more. Discussed in this episode: How can I intentionally create a more peaceful, happy emotional tone in my home—and can one person set that tone? (3:30) Where is your happy place? (19:07) Right Here, Right Now: Simplehaven and a programming note. (35:36) Listener tip: A fresh take to minimize clothes you're unsure about. (36:51) Have a question for the show? Call 406-219-7839 or email a voice memo to [email protected]. Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist Joshua Fields Milburn here. TK Coleman over there. Hey, my man, what's happening? Not only do we have TK here, we have KT here. Yes. We're joined by a former overwhelmed mom turned decluttering expert. And her new book is called Making Home Your Happy Place. I got a copy of it right here. The subtitle is A Real Life Guide to Decluttering Without the Overwhelm. I've been enjoying this one. Please welcome to the show Katie Joywell. Yes.

• 1:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You made it.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  I made it.

• 1:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Fresh off the plane from Asheville. And you decided to come out and we were having so much fun before we started recording. I'm like, I guess we should probably just start recording this episode because like it was just a ball of joy, which today we're talking a bit about like happiness and happy home and the joy that you experience in your home or the things that get in the way of your joy. Before we get to our callers, here's something to chew on TK. Every item you keep is a responsibility you accept. Hmm. Now, how is this framing useful? Every item you keep is a responsibility that you accept. Hey, man, I'm gonna sip on that.

• 1:59Speaker 03

  That's my new feature of the show. You say chew on it and then I sip on it before I chew on it. Or that's a little too complicated. Okay, man, listen, let's answer the question. It goes back to the old, the old saying that there are no solutions, there are only trade offs. Trade offs are involved in everything that we do, right? And so anytime we take something in, there's something else we gotta be willing to give up. You know, if I want a new puppy, that's a great source of joy, but I gotta be willing to give up time to take care of the puppy, to walk the puppy, to give the puppy the love and attention that it needs. And it's just always good to be aware of what we are giving up in order to say yes to this and what we are saying yes to in order to say no to that, because that kind of helps us make a more informed decision and protects us from the illusion that, you know, anything in life is, is for free in the sense of being without cost and benefits.

• 2:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Katie, I got a lot I want to talk to you about today. On this episode, we're talking about setting the emotional stage in your home to make it feel more peaceful. Also, uncovering your happy place amid all the chaos of everyday life, finding silence in a noisy world, getting rid of clothes we're unsure about, and much, much more. Also, on page three, I was showing you, I've got this thing here. I want to share 15 ridiculous things that people in society still accept as normal.

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Ooh, that sounds fun.

• 3:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think we might argue about this one. I can't wait.

• 3:16Speaker 03

  Is wearing all black one of them? Is that normal or ridiculous or both?

• 3:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We'll get to that for sure. Let's start with our callers, 406-219-7839. If you want to join the show, just give us a call or send a voice memo to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Whitney.

• 3:35Speaker 04

  Hello, this is Whitney from Indianapolis. I'm a Patreon subscriber. I would love your insights on cultivating a happy or peaceful home. Is there an emotional version of the set the stage rule? Similar to having a once a night habit of 15 minutes? Practically, I need to know, how would you do this emotionally? Is it a daily habit? A weekly habit? A monthly habit? Or if it's any or all of the above, how do you practically implement such a habit? We have no control over the other people in the home, but we do have control over our reactions

• 4:16Speaker 04

  and responses. So do you believe the power of one can set the emotional tone of the home? Or if you have others on board, how could you get them in on this habit as well? Love any insights you have on this. Thank you.

• 4:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, Katie, you have an entire chapter in your book dedicated to onboarding the adults in your home. You also talk about the good enough home. So let's talk to Whitney specifically about how she can create a more peaceful, happy, emotional tone in her home. It's not just about the stuff, it's about how she feels about her relation to the stuff. And also, it's important to ask this question, can one person set that tone in the home?

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Million dollar question. I love it. You know, I think the reality is our homes are always communicating something to us. And I think we have heard, or we say, like, our homes can be a reflection of how we feel. But I tend to take that a step further in the sense that it's generating, it's actively generating how we feel. And so I think because we are so intricately connected to our physical environments, it influences our thoughts, our emotions, our behaviors, our actions, our choices, our tone, all of these things. It makes sense to me that a lot of people might not feel that emotionally happy or peaceful experience or emotion in their homes if their home is actively going against that. And so I think we've all experienced that when it comes to decluttering. It's like,

• 5:39Speaker 02

  yes, there's physical space, but then that leads to more of that emotional space so that we can tap more into probably something that maybe was already there to begin with. It was just buried, right? Presence, peace, happiness. So I think number one, how do you change it? I think declutter, but look at it not like a project, but as a process. For me, it's a very ongoing thing. I have two boys, nine and 11. And even if I didn't, I'm a human being. And something that served me six weeks ago or six days ago doesn't mean it serves me today. So I think we have to get really good at building that declutter muscle and discerning when something is no longer serving us anymore. And as far as the question, can someone set that tone in the house? I think. I think, yes, but of course, it's nuanced and layered. For me, I was the declutter spearhead

• 6:23Speaker 02

  in our home. And I, on most days, was glad to do it because I understood the return on my investment. I never looked at it like spending time. It was, I know I'm getting a massive investment back. Time, energy, less stress, peace, all these things. And I think we can help manage our family's emotions through the means of what we leave in the home, right? And we get to choose what that is.

• 6:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, TK, one of the things we do in the studio is, I never thought about it this way, but I love the way Whitney phrased the question, is we try to set an emotional tone here. But the question is like, what emotion are you trying to evoke as well? If you go to a nightclub, you don't want peace and calm, right? You want like the party atmosphere. I have a friend whose house is very much like that. There's people just coming through the house all the time. And, and that's the emotional tone that he wants in his home, is I've got all these, these guests that are showing up and I want that energy and the thrills and the excitement. That's one emotional tone. Here in the studio, we usually have the zing garden playing. It's calm in here. The lighting, other than when we're recording, is, is pretty dim. And, and it sets a different kind of emotional

• 7:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  tone. And so, it's interesting to me that Whitney, it sounds to me like she probably wants that peace, that, that calm. But a happy home can be also exciting and thrilling as well. What emotional tone do you look for in your home?

• 7:47Speaker 03

  Hmm. Well, you know, I, I think about Hemingway's advice for writers, where he says, start with the truest sentence you know. I, I think in a similar way, when it comes to setting the emotional tone, it's less about starting with a particular emotion, like today, I'm gonna set the tone for excitement, or today, we're all gonna laugh. I think when you get caught up in trying to set a particular kind of tone, you run into a lot of resistance and it feels very forced. I think it's more important that you start with being centered in who you are. And who you are, you're gonna feel different in every moment. Some days, you're gonna wake up, you're gonna feel really excited, energetic. Some days, you're gonna wake up and you're just gonna feel really chill. Some days, you'll feel melancholy. But the important thing is to be present. To yourself and to bring that to others in a way that you feel good about.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  And so I think it's more important that we start setting the emotional tone by asking, what does it take for me to be grounded in my wellbeing, for me to be self-aware? And I do think you can, there is a version of the, you know, prepping things the night before or at the end of the day. There are a few questions I think you could ask yourself that would help in this regard. One question is you can say, hey, end of the day, what did I do well today? It doesn't matter if it's small or if anyone will be impressed with it, but what's one thing I did well today that I think I did well? And if you ask another person this, please let them get away with it. Don't let them answer it and be like, well, you could have did that a little better too. Just let it be, right? What's one thing I did well today? Second, you can say, what's one thing that happened that I feel grateful for?

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Could be anything, you know, I didn't, I didn't get sick today. Everybody showed up to their meetings on time today, whatever. What's one thing I feel grateful for? Third could be, what's something that made me think or laugh? We usually get one of those today. Somebody said something that made you laugh today or it made you think today. And that's a good thing, like what's that? Fourth could be, what's something I didn't do so well today? But I would like to show up a little bit better tomorrow. And that allows you to give some honest assessment of things you don't like, but also give you a sense of hope and positive anticipation as you look towards the future. Those are good inventory questions that can sort of help you set the emotional tone, let go of your day and enter into the new day with a stronger sense of, of direction, purpose and groundedness.

• 10:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Katie, can you tell me a bit more about onboarding other people in your home? What does that look like for you?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  I will say, when my kids were itty bitty, I really loved to point the finger that all my clutter problems were because of them and also my husband. So I went for the easiest target, not the toddlers, but my husband. And I said, our house is completely cluttered and overwhelming because of you and your stuff and your hobbies.

• 10:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Nugget of truth in that, right?

• 10:29Speaker 02

  There, well, yes, and he would absolutely admit to it now, but I think I went into it a little, a lot too reactive. And I also, I think, made a classic mistake of.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Of in the sense of like trying to start with his stuff. Right. And I think maybe we've all kind of done that to a certain extent, like, oops, I should have just focused on my own. And he knew I meant business when I started tackling my clothes. I know we'll talk about clothes later in the show, but that was like my thing. Like I had all these clothes from high school and like college. I just didn't want to let go of, but that wasn't the problem. It was everyone else's stuff. So I think for me, it really got down to sharing number one, my big why? Why do I want to simplify? Why do I want to invest the time to cluttering when we could be hiking? When we could be doing these other things as a family? Also sharing what's in it for him really helped. I mean, I think to a certain extent, we're all like www dot what's in it for me.com. We all live in that space.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  And when I said, I really want to do this, he just thought it's just time consuming. I don't want to do it. The return isn't there. So instead I just added sprinkled in a little more into the conversation. We'll save time on chores. We'll feel more peaceful. It'll set the emotional tone for our homes and like, you know, we'll be able to do all these things that we want to do anyway, instead of like going to bed exhausted and kind of living on this hamster wheel of overwhelm and exhaustion when it came to home management. So I think those really were a solid starting point.

• 11:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Tell me about the, what is the good enough home?

• 11:55Speaker 02

  The good enough home is really, I think in our culture, especially as someone who was so overwhelmed with the burden of clutter in my home, a lot of the solutions out there kind of promised this arrival fallacy and not in a, I don't mean to like knock it, but it's like, you'll be happy when your home is completely clutter free. And I think, you know, you go on Pinterest and I know I'm aging myself. You go on Tik Tok, you go on Instagram and you look at all these before and afters and you're like, oh, that's what I want. That's what I'm going to work towards. And it kind of just puts this image in our mind that the goalpost, like the end goal, if you do everything right, is to have a perfectly tidy home 24/7. And no matter what I tried, you know, decluttering, resetting the space, the clutter would come

• 12:40Speaker 02

  back and I get so overwhelmed and I was so constantly, especially I think women feel this particularly because there's so much shame in that. I'm not sure if you've heard the study, I think it was from 2019 called Good Housekeeping. Hmm, no. They showed the participants in the study the same image of a messy room. And to half the participants, they said, a man lives here. To the other half, they said, a woman lives here. And that ones that were showed, that were told it was a man, they're just like, the consensus was, okay, he's a little messy. It's no big deal. But for the ones who were told a woman, woman lived there, she was judged morally. She thought she, they, she had lower moral character. Wow. And they're like, she needs to get her crap together, you know? Yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  And I think, wow, like if you zoom out, it's like, no wonder I felt that. Cause I asked my husband once, do you ever feel judged by the state of our home? And his response was like, why would you ever like, no? And I'm like, this is something I live with constantly. Right. And I still have to. The fear of judgment. Yes, yes. And I think, again, just culturally, it just tends to fall on women. And I think collectively, we can all do things to help with that. And my kind of solution to that shame and feeling like failure all the time was step one, just saying, I get to set that benchmark for myself, that goalpost. The goal isn't to have an always tidy home, it's to have an easy to tidy home. And to get more comfortable with the natural messes that happen from living.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  And I will tell you, when I gave myself that permission, and it's not that I love mess. I don't, I really, I don't. Like I just cleaned that countertop, my kids get home. But I will say, again, just zooming out, taking a 30,000 foot view. Think about some of like your favorite memories in your home. Like playing Uno with my kids, tipping the living room upside down and building a fort, arts and crafts, whatever that is. What happens from that tends to be a lot of messes. Right. And I don't think, I think mess can be a really beautiful thing and it's not something to be feared. Yes. But it's so instilled in that, in us that I think it's just kind of, again, taking your foot off the gas pedal a little bit and just focusing on a more objective reality.

• 14:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, you have to be willing to live in your home. Yeah. Otherwise, you're going to be terrified of using anything in your home. That sort of defeats the the purpose of the things that we own. My home, I mean, it's funny when we'll post pictures somewhere, someone will be like, "Yeah, but does anyone really live there?" And it's like, "Yeah, that's the whole point. We make room for living and we'll bring the stuff out into the living room from Ella's bedroom. And you've got toys and Legos and things we're building and these posters and cards. But then when we're done, it becomes, we don't just leave it there and say, "Ah, we'll just deal with it later." It's about dealing with it when we're done using it. If something has been used, it's, you want to like, if you use a wrapper that's on a piece of food, you throw it out when you're done.

• 15:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But if you use your things in your home, they have a place that they go after they're done being used. That's really difficult, though, if you have so many things that it feels like these things don't have a a home within your home. And then the organizing is exhausting. And we often say the easiest way to organize your stuff is to get rid of most of it, right? And that's one of the ways that I've created a happier home or a good enough home. It's not to try to make it perfect. It's to understand that many of the things that I used to own simply got in the way of creating that emotional tone in the home. Whitney's talking about the setting the stage rule. That's something from Very Very Simple. It's an audiobook that TK and I recorded.

• 16:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's these 12 tools for simpler living. You can find that on Audible now, or it's available on Kindle if you would like to read it. But I'd definitely say check out the audiobook version of that. The set the stage rule is pretty simple. You set a timer at night, 15 minutes, and then you're clearing out anything, any of the detritus from the day, the debris that's been set up, putting dishes away, things that were left on the floor. There's a throw pillow over here. Oh, the laundry still needs to be folded. Oh, you know what? The laundry is still in the dryer. I need to put it in, I need to put it in, in the, my, my cabinets or my, my drawers, my dresser, on the shelves, wherever I'm going to put my stuff. But I'm going to spend 15 minutes to do that. But part of that is

• 17:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Setting a tone of the physical goods, but that TK, it resonates emotionally as well. You wrote about this in Emotional Clutter, which by the way, is also available on Audible now.

• 17:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And in there, you're kind of talking about the calm that is created. It's not to impose a calm on someone, but it's almost to invite that calm into one's life through their space.

• 17:28Speaker 03

  That's right. And I, and I think that speaks to the, the, the earlier part of the question about setting the tone. Can one person set the tone? I, I, I think it's possible because we see people who do that. They're definitely tone setters, but that's also a lot of pressure. I'm going to be the guy to set the tone because some of us don't have that personality type. There are certain people, when they walk into the room, you know that if this person feels bad, everybody's feeling bad. If this person feels good, everybody's happy, like they are a tone setter. And not all of us experience ourselves in that way, but what we can do is we can influence the vibe. We can do that in small but meaningful ways. And I think, I think setting the stage is a way to do that. And this also connects to your point about gratitude, where if we can, or your point about the burden that,

• 18:11Speaker 03

  that, that women uniquely carry about their homes. If, if we can all just express a little more gratitude, hey, thank you so much for taking care of our home. Thank you so much for, I noticed that you cleaned up after, you know, we all played a game, made a mess. Thanks for that. Or, or Johnny needs to do a better job at picking up his toys and he picks up one, but leaves nine on the floor. Hey Johnny, thank you for getting that one toy. Right. That, that's more likely to get me the other nine, by the way, than chastising the nine that he didn't get. Thank you for, you know, giving that toy. But, but when you express gratitude for the role that people play, the things that people do to make the home a lovely place. That's a way that you may not necessarily set the tone because maybe everybody won't follow suit. But you do influence the vibe in small but significant ways.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  And that is such a powerful tool for emotional declutter, such a powerful tool for setting the stage for a great next day.

• 19:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Whitney, I'd love to send you a copy of Emotional Clutter. Other folks can check that out on Audible or Kindle. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. Before we get back to our callers, Katie, let's try to declutter. This question of the week that we have this week. This is a pithy one. The question itself is pithy. So it says, what is your happy place? What is your happy place? Before we give some pithy answers here, let's check in with our Patreon community chat. See what they had to say. Caroline said, I'm a self-employed gardener, so I work in nature, down in the dirt every day. Nature is my happy place. It has completely changed my life.

• 19:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I've always loved nature and have tried to incorporate it into my life throughout my previous careers. But since my last career change, I have never been more emotionally and physically stable. If you don't get out and about and you feel low or unbalanced, I fully believe that this is the answer. Get out and touch it, absorb it, allow it to envelop you, and it will change your life. TK, what's the importance of getting out there and touching grass, as the kids say?

• 20:13Speaker 03

  Man, I mean.

• 20:18Speaker 03

  KT, man, she's been cracking me up all day. You know, I mean, it's funny because like we have so much reality mediated to us through the screen. And we're getting further and further removed from just like organic experience. And I think that at the heart of touch grass is do not allow all of your experiences to be mediated to you through a screen or through someone else. But but but never lose sight of the the felt presence of immediate experience. And so touch grass can be go outside and get some fresh air, you know? Just get some sun on your skin, like go do something for you that isn't a mediated experience. That's what makes you human.

• 20:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Katie, what role does nature play in your average happy home?

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Large.

• 21:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Even if it's just like positioning myself in front of a window and looking outside. I, you know, we were talking before we hit record about like, things we thought were funny when we were child, children, but now it's like, now we aspire to that. And it was like, oh, my, my grandpa lived to be over a hundred years old and he was always into bird watching. And as a little girl, I'm like, what a waste of time. And now I'm like, on my Merlin ID app, like, what bird was that? Did you see it? Was it a male or female? And it's just brings me so much joy in like, what can be a mundane day. Or like, I think we get caught up in the minutia of like, the to do list, the tasks, the decluttering, the home management, the this, the that. And it's just to look outside for a moment. Whether you live in a city or out in the woods like I do or not, it's just, I think it's just,

• 21:48Speaker 02

  it taps back into, you know, what TK was talking about, like gratitude. It just helps ground our nervous system. And peace, presence, joy, connection, happiness. Like, I think so much can come from that.

• 22:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hmm. You know, the gratitude piece, or I would just call it appreciation. We have this acronym that we talk about sometimes. If you want to better understand someone's Tara, T A R A. The first step is to tolerate someone. It's a, it's a weak virtue by itself, but sometimes you just have to tolerate someone's opinion, their judgment, their scorn, their behaviors, their actions, their dismissiveness, whatever. How can I tolerate them? And you move up to acceptance. I accept this person for who they are. And that's how I see them for who they are. It's, I love them, right? And then there's a respect that comes from that. And finally, the last letter there is appreciation. That's often really difficult, especially if you're living with someone who you would consider to be cluttered or a hoarder.

• 22:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  How do I appreciate their mess? Well, you just said one, some messes can be beautiful, right? Now, not all messes are beautiful. And I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is clutter, though. Clutter is in the eye of the beholder. I want to tell you, take a quick detour real quick. This weekend, I probably cried more this weekend than I have and.

• 23:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The longest time that I can remember. Although I'll tell you that the first 28 years of my life, I was basically told not to cry, taught by culture and society that that was weak and pathetic and you repress it and you hide it. And so I remember the first time I cried as an adult was when my mother passed away. And it was like, what are these things that are exiting my eyes right now? And it was so overwhelming. And there was something about those tears that were part of a letting go process. And so I do this thing once a year. I keep a note in our file cabinet. I just call it the file cabinet letter. And it's if something were to happen to me, if I were to die, there's some practical things in there for my wife.

• 23:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But also there's like this note that expresses a lot of appreciation. And it's the everyday appreciation that I will, I will express to her regularly. But there's something about the exercise TK of putting this down on paper and looking at it from a position in which I'm no longer here. This is a death note. This is, you're only going to read this if I am dead. And there's a letting go of my own mortality. And through that, it gave me the most brilliant appreciation of my wife. And I'm like, I need to do this for other people in my life. Write letters to the people that I appreciate, but from the perspective of my deathbed or post-death bed,

• 24:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  from the afterlife, so to speak. And it totally changed my perspective. I was filled up with all of this appreciation. And it was a, it was an accidental experiment that I know I'll continue to carry forward because there's this eight-page letter with tears on it. And it's, it was one of the most beautiful things I've ever done. And it was one of the most difficult things. It was like, you know, when you go to the gym, you lift heavy weights to sort of build up your physicality? This was like lifting heavy weights for my heart in a way. And it was overwhelming, but beautiful at the same time.

• 25:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Kalon said, "My happy place is reading a book in my clean house." The clean house part is, yeah, it's hard for me to read a book if my house is super cluttered.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Katie, tell me, why does a clean home feel so good?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  I think ultimately, it's because of how we're wired. Our brains are wired to crave peace and order. I think if that weren't the case, none of us would be here right now. We just, sure, have clutter, nobody cares, no, it doesn't impact us, right?

• 25:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  And so I think it's just ultimately, again, it's how we're designed. And so even, it's so interesting, because speaking to that before and after photo I was talking about earlier, even just looking at a photo of a before cluttered space versus an after photo, looking at the after photo, I don't know if you guys have experienced this, I literally take a deep breath, I'm like, it's not even my space, and it feels so much better to look at that. I mean, that just speaks volumes. And it's not just me, it's, it's, it's everybody, you know, for the most part.

• 26:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, that full body size. Also TK, there's sort of a, a wonder and awe of the spaciousness. And if you enter a sanctuary, there are certain places that just inspire like that, that full body relief, like, oh, this is calming, I feel it on my nerve endings.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's exactly right. And, and sometimes we feel tension that we don't quite understand. We might blame it on ourselves, or, or people, or just attribute it to randomness. But even like when you're going through a hallway, how hall, how that hallway is designed, how narrow it is, what the lighting is like, it can make you feel very unsafe, or creeped out, or it can make you feel like you're in a healthy transition to something better, or the, the kind of street you're on, you know, the way that road is designed can make you feel like you're really scared, it can make you feel really anxious. We experience all sorts of feelings that have so much more to do with. With things beyond like how positive of a thinker you are. And one of the ways that we victimize ourselves is we say, I'm not as happy as I ought to be.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  I'm not as positive as I ought to be. And it's like literally like the ceilings and the lighting and the architecture for where you are, that's causing you to feel that way.

• 27:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's right. And so, yes, it's true that the enlightened person could meditate in the middle of a rave. But for most of us, the setting really does matter. That's why I think this is important for the peace throughout the rest of your life as well. Your home is often that sanctuary you want to come back to. But it also sets the stage for the rest of your day outside the home. Lindsay said, I can choose to be happy anywhere. But I particularly like silence. Silence is my happy place. TK, there's an opposite of that, though, where for a lot of us, silence can be an unhappy place. Tell me about that.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  I don't know if I accept that silence is an unhappy place as much as I think silence has a unique way of shedding light on already existing unhappiness. It's sort of like turning on the lights. And, you know, seeing something scatter.

• 28:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 28:16Speaker 03

  The lights didn't create that. The lights helped you see that. And if you turn off the lights, you may not have to look at anything like that. But if you keep the lights on, you're gonna have to deal with what is there to be seen. And, you know, one very common experience people have when they first began, you know, practice meditation is what they call the monkey mind. Like, I've got a very busy mind. Meditation is making my mind busy. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Meditation isn't making your mind busy. It's you live with that noise all the time. And there is nothing to contrast that noise. And so when you turn off the TV, you put the cell phone down and you sit down and you're quiet. There is nothing to attend to other than the noise in your head. There's nothing that stands between that and you.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  And it feels like someone is cranking up the volume on the noise in your head. But that's not what's happening. The lights are just turned on and you can see what's already there.

• 29:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think that's why the bird watching thing is so appealing to a lot of people. A lot of people, you mentioned as people get older, they are often turned on to that. But also little kids are very turned on to bird watching as well because of that presence that's there. That we strip that away from them in time so that they can live by the so-called societal norms. Katie, I'm interested, where is your happy place?

• 29:31Speaker 02

  As cliche as it sounds, I will, I'll lead with my home. I think I extract so much value out of spending time at home. But thinking this through, I really think it's not like, it's not really a place on the map per se. Cause I, like one of your listeners said, it can be, I can find that happy place outside on a hike with my family. I can find it playing a card game around our kitchen table. I can find it being in solace, looking at birds. I mean, that's definitely very happy for me around a campfire. I think when, when we are in a space that allows us to be present so that we can slow down, tap into that silence, which I've certainly used to feel very uncomfortable for me. Cause you know, trauma, grief, it's like, I'd rather stay distracted with clutter

• 30:16Speaker 02

  or really anything than have to like sit with these feelings. I thought that for a long time. And I know that feeling well, but that presence is equally frightening as it can be. Cause silence can sometimes come with that. It's a really incredible opportunity to maybe not sit with those, but do something you want to do, connect. Like that, that's why I do what I do. I think it's really about connection. Connection with ourself, connection with our loved ones, with our communities. And especially in a day and age where AI is just, you know, really coming out, I think it's even more valuable than it was even a year ago.

• 30:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Sure. Yeah. I think there's, uh, what's the clutter? It's digital clutter. It's noise. It's all the type of visual noise or, or just these distractions, right? And it's really hard to sustain. Satisfaction, fulfillment, peace. If we're constantly distracted, if we have all of the notifications, it's we're Pavlovian and we pick up the phone or we turn on the TV or we search for the screen. Even though we say I value silence, that is where my happy place is. I can say that, but I can also say that quite often, my actions don't always map on to the thing that I say that I value. How about you listeners? Where is your happy place? Let us know your thoughts in the comments.

• 31:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right. I got my minimal maxim ready TK. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox every Monday for free if you sign up for our email newsletter. It's called the simple newsletter. I also put a new writing in there every Monday. We'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we'll start your week off with a dose of simplicity. Okay, give me something pithy TK. Where is your happy place?

• 32:07Speaker 03

  I'm gonna improv this one. I know I wrote something down, I'm gonna change it. My happy place is the place where happiness cannot be measured. I love the C.S. Lewis quote where he says, "A man who tries to measure how quickly he's falling asleep will likely remain awake all night." Where there's also say, there's also what they say about catching the butterfly. Like if you chase the butterfly, try to make it come to you, it won't work. But if you just relax and chill, the butterfly might land on you. I like that idea of being in the flow where it's not like, am I happy? Am I doing all right? Am I good? And you're just connected. For me, that's taking a walk. When I'm walking, if you were to interrupt me in the middle of a walk and say, hey, man, are you happy? I will say, I don't know. You know what I mean?

• 32:51Speaker 03

  I don't even know, man, but maybe I'm unhappy because you just interrupted the walk.

• 32:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, right, right.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  You know, or even like listening to jazz. If I listen to a song like Ballad of the Sad Young Man or a song like Lush Life, it transports me into a bar where I'm sitting alone at the bar with a drink. "I used to visit all the very gay places, those come with me places where one relaxes on the axis of the will of life." And if you say TK, you doing all right? I'm already got the tears running down my eyes and I'm like, I've never been better, man. I've never been better, you know? It's like technically, I don't know what that is. Maybe it's not happiness, but man, that boy in that moment, he doesn't even like to drink, but he's connected. He's connected to something. Yeah.

• 33:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think that's, Katie, you were kind of talking about that earlier. There's a connection there. And often, our homes are a space for connection. It could be with our family, with our kids, with our significant other, with a partner, with community, bringing people together. There's a connected piece to this. But also, getting back to the silence of the birdwatch, there's a connection with nature, or connection with the moment, connection with music. It's ultimately about reconnecting, but also disconnecting from a lot of that noise. Which brings me to my pithy answer here, which is, my happy place is uncovered, not acquired. Quite often, we buy the things, we have the perfect home because it's going

• 34:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to make me happy. And then I realize, oh, that's actually stressing me out. The expectation that there may never be a speck of clutter or dust in the home is making me miserable because of not the clutter necessarily, because my expectation that it has to be flawless. It has to be complete. But the truth is, sometimes, it's complete now, it may not be complete tomorrow. I might have too much stuff tomorrow. I might not have enough tomorrow because of circumstances changing. And if I'm unwilling to change with that, that's almost the definition of failure. You can be really successful as a horse and buggy manufacturer in Cincinnati, Ohio in 1890. But by the time the Model T came around,

• 34:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  they became obsolete because they weren't willing to change with the times. And I think the same thing is true with with our homes. Homes are not static, they're dynamic. They change as your needs change. As your kids are growing up, you realize like, oh, they need a lot of different stuff now. And if there's sports involved, there's accoutrements with that and equipment with that. And as they change, they start shedding the stuff from the past, they bring new things in. And it's that openness that creates that that atmosphere that to me feels satisfying and fulfilling and connected. That's almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to. But first, real quick for right here, right now, here's one thing going on in the life of the minimalist.

• 35:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Programming note for you. We do not have a podcast next week because Ryan Nekedemos and I were going out on tour. And so by the time this comes out, we'll have already done Dayton, Ohio, but that one's almost sold out anyway. But we saw some tickets left for Ojai, California, Franklin, Tennessee, Missoula, Montana. We hope to see you there. Theminimalists.com/tour if you want to grab your tickets. Not only are we doing a screening, a 10th anniversary of our first film, Minimalism, but we are doing a live talk, a Q and A session, a meet and greet, and we have a special surprise for you as well. So we hope to see you in Montana, Tennessee, or California. Theminimalists.com to get your tickets. And also, there's just a few spots left to our three-day minimalist retreat,

• 36:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  which is happening in just a few weeks here in Ojai, California. Come spend three days with me and Ryan and TK and a bunch of special guests as well. We'll be letting go together. We have a whole weekend of letting go, May 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. You can also find tickets to that at theminimalists.com. As of right now, there's only, they're actually, it sold out, but a few people couldn't make it. So we have a couple of tickets left for you. Much more coming up. But first, here is a minimalist tip from one of our listeners.

• 36:55Speaker 05

  Hello, minimalists. This is Doug in Roiloke, Michigan, just outside of Detroit. I'd like to offer my variation on the "I hate this shirt" rule. I approach this not as a statement, but as a question, as in, "I hate this shirt?" And then I give myself three chances to answer that. Here's how. If I'm torn about whether I should get rid of a particular shirt or any other clothing item, I first commit to wearing it for a full day. Then by the end of the day, if I feel I have more hate than love for that shirt, I give myself permission to let it go, and I follow through on that. And if I determine that I have love for that shirt after one day, I keep it.

• 37:38Speaker 05

  However, if I'm still torn about whether I love it or hate it after that day of wearing it, I will wear it again on a scheduled day the next week. I do it a week later because I've found a seven-day break offers me a good mental buffer. After the second time, if I don't like it, I let it go. But if I'm still torn, I repeat the process one final time. Upon that third wearing, I must choose at the end of the day what to do with it. Keep it or let it go. This gives the shirt or whatever clothing item in question, three chances to prove itself. Or more to the point, I get three chances to prove to myself that I really do like and get value from this item of clothing, or that I don't and I should let it go.

• 38:24Speaker 05

  By doing it this way, I'm able to assess this shirt in a more intentional and tested way. Instead of looking at it and impulsively letting it go, when I still have a nagging doubt about it and whether it provides value for me. Thanks for all you do, and if you guys are considering hitting the road for another tour, please come to Detroit.

• 38:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Shout out Doug, I love Detroit. My hometown Dayton, they used to call it Little Detroit back in the day. That was a compliment and I still take it as a compliment to this day. You know, what's interesting about this, Katie, is he's talking about giving it three chances. This wouldn't work for me now, but I think there was a time where it would have worked really well because I was afraid to let go of certain things. And if I had a hard, fast rule of, you know what? If I try this on once, I don't like it, I get rid of it. That's my rule now. I just call it, I hate that shirt. And if I try something on, I'm like, eh, this doesn't fit right. Or my wife faded a bunch of my T-shirts recently accidentally with some new detergent scheme she was trying with vinegar. And I'm like, oh, I hate it now because it's all ruined.

• 39:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I'm not going to give that three tries. I'd rather just dismiss it. But I'm wondering, are there any rules for you? Cause you mentioned the clothes earlier. Are there any rules for you that helped you let go of your super abundance of outfits?

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Yes. Number one, I think it was recognizing my true reality versus the clothes I had kept from previous seasons of life and also that I was still acquiring. Through consumption is that they didn't, they were very aspirational. It was like the high heels I wore once when I was 20, the cute dresses. And this is, you know, I decluttered massively in my wardrobe when my kids were two and three and that season of life. And it's just like, there's this huge gap. And I think there is a reckoning we all have to sit with, at least I did in that moment, and be like, listen, this isn't my reality. And even if tomorrow my kids were 18 or like in college, I wouldn't be putting this stuff on anyway. I like comfortable shoes now.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Okay, like, and maybe even slightly, not to sound dramatic, but like a grieving process, especially, I mean, becoming a mom, I was like, who am I? It was like finding my footing. And I think sometimes we try to do that through keeping certain categories of things. For me, it was that clothing and it's like, will I ever be fun and bubbly and like not tired again if I get rid of this stuff? It's like the meaning we assign stuff can be really heavy. So there is that piece, but also from a very like tangible level and something I still use constantly for clothes or anything in my house is the opportunity rule. So have I had the opportunity to use this, wear this, enjoy it in the last six months? Oftentimes it's less than that, but it's not, is this useful? Right?

• 41:12Speaker 02

  We have to ask better questions. And I think adding in the word opportunity, sure, I've had the opportunity to wear that top, but I've reached for my other one instead. That speaks volumes to me. And as someone who struggles with decision fatigue, I don't want 15 options like to help me decide. And I don't want to drag out the experience of decluttering, even still now that my kids are older, I'm just like, cut throat, baby. Like, let's just do this. And if I have had the opportunity but didn't wear it, it's going into the donation station. If I didn't have the opportunity, I will move that top front and center. So I literally see it right when I walk into my closet. And again, if I bypass that to get to what I really want, that speaks volumes.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  So leaning into that.

• 41:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love that, the opportunity rule. Also, donation station, great band name, but also.

• 42:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I brought my cowbell.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  I think that works. Just to join this band, I'm going to change my name to Model TK. And Katie's going to change her to Model KT and we're going to donation station.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 42:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right. For anyone who has a listener tip or insight about this episode or any other episodes, send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Also, we're starting that new segment. Savvy D's got some questions on deck for the next episode. What would Joshua own? We're doing this new segment where I used this question used to drive me crazy like, hey, Josh, what kind of black t-shirts do you have? Or what kind of blender do you use? And I realized that these people just really trust that I've made decisions to buy things intentionally. And so we're going to do a new segment on the podcast. What would Joshua own if you have a question about my leaf blower, or my supplements, or towels, or mattress, or couch, or anything else in

• 43:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  my home or my life? You're welcome to give us a call, 406-219-7839, or send in that voice memo. [email protected]. Up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back. All right, y'all. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two hour maximal edition of episode 536 with Katie Joy Wells, which includes answers to a bunch more questions like, where's the line between using technology for convenience and letting it disrupt a low-tech intentional home? Also, as traditional markers of success like homeownership and car ownership fade, what will give people meaning and something else to strive for?

• 43:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Plus, we have a million more questions and simple living segments over on the minimalist private podcast on Patreon. The link is down in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to the very first episode. Big thanks to Katie Joy Wells for joining us today. Check out her book. It's called Making Home Your Happy Place. We'll also put links to her podcast and Instagram in the show notes, so you can dive deeper. And that is our maximal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Milburn.

• 44:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If you leave here with just one message, let it be this. Love people. And use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.