534 | The Pantry

The Minimalists speak with Kristen Ziegler about identifying and minimizing excess pantry items, the most absurd things we own, how to reset your algorithm, how decluttering and cleaning your home boosts your dopamine levels, and more! Discussed in this episode: How should I best organize my excess pantry items? (4:54) What's the most absurd thing in your pantry? Why is it still there? (20:24) Right Here, Right Now: The Minimalism 10th Anniversary Tour and Simplehaven Retreat (43:18) Listener Tip: How to reset your algorithm. (45:11) Have a question for the show? Call 406-219-7839 or email a voice memo to [email protected]. Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist Joshua Fields Milburn TK Coleman is here. How are you doing? Hey, man, I'm doing well, especially with my friend here, man. Well, I think it's safe to say that today's guest fits right there in the intersection of our Venn diagram of favorite people. Kristin Segler is here, y'all. Yes.

• 0:58Speaker 02

  Glad to be back.

• 0:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Here's something to chew on. TK, I wrote this down. What we possess eventually dispossesses us. Now, first, we all know the thinking, like, our possessions can possess us. The things that we possess end up possessing us. I've had more than one listener say this show is like an exorcism for my clutter. And that can be physical clutter, but it can also be the internal clutter, the emotional clutter, spiritual clutter, any other type of clutter that starts with the physical things. But Kristin, when we talk about our possessions dispossessing us, to dispossess means to deprive someone of land, property, or other possessions.

• 1:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I wanted to bring you here today because you have a beautiful home. We'll be talking about, even showing some photos on the video version of the podcast today. And I think our possessions dispossess us in a way. They take away the openness, the freedom, the spaciousness in our lives. And I think we value it, but we don't realize we value it. And then the house gets really full and we are dispossessed by our possessions. Do you have any thoughts on that?

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I often talk about the Japanese concept of ma. And in Japanese culture, what's not there is just as important as what is. And so I always ask myself that or ask my clients that when we're working together. You know, let's make sure there's enough breathing room. Maybe the question isn't, do I have too much clutter? It's I, do I have enough breathing room in my home?

• 2:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. TK, how do you relate this to the the sort of exorcism metaphor there? Because we're so often like, I don't know, lustful of our possessions or we want something. I have to have it. And it feels almost like it's, I know it's a metaphor, but it feels like a type of demonic possession in our lives.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, because you let it in usually over something small or seemingly legitimate or innocuous that you think you can get away with. But once you open the door and it makes its way inside, gradually it just gains more and more ground until it eventually consumes your life. And now we don't even notice you anymore. You look different, you act different, you talk different. You know, you're consumed by by your possessions. One thing I think of though, with this dispossess riff that you have is there are a few slogans in the dating world. Like, he's just not that into you, or she's for the streets. And when these slogans are used, it's usually saying to someone, hey,

• 3:42Speaker 03

  don't orient your life around that person. Don't make too many sacrifices for that person because eventually they're going to leave you. They're going to leave you, you're going to lose them. And I think this is kind of like your way of saying that about things like, these toys ain't loyal.

• 3:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, yes, yeah. We've got a lot to talk about today. Coming up on this episode, we're talking about identifying and minimizing excess pantry items. We'll also talk about the most absurd things we own, how to reset your algorithm and much, much more. Plus, on page three, we'll talk about how decluttering and cleaning your home naturally boosts your dopamine levels. We have something from a neuroscientist talking about. Cleaning your home is actually really great for your mental health. But let's start with our callers, 406-219-7839, if you'd like to join the program, or you can just email a voice recording right from your phone to [email protected].

• 4:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber so we can prioritize your message. By the way, shout out patrons. Your support keeps this podcast 100% advertisement free, because sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Blah. All right, our first question today is from Tatiana.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  Hi, my name is Tatiana and I'm a Patreon subscriber. I have a lot of spaghetti and rice for some reason. I would love to know how to figure out storing pantry items and knowing what to do with the excess pantry items.

• 5:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, so this is exactly why I saved this voicemail for Kristin. Last time was our homes, last year, we were filming something there for this new documentary The Minimalists are working on. And when I opened up your pantry, your cabinets, and we're good, I have some photos here that I want to talk to you about here in a moment. But it's like, it feels to me so calm. And it seems to me that Tatiana will see this and say, okay, yeah, that's actually what I'm looking, I'm looking to go in that direction. And yet, this question also reminded me of this little meme. We'll have Tomcat put this up on the screen here, but it's an article from an Onion-like website, I think called The Wakataki Times.

• 5:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you see this, this woman with these, these rotted bananas here, right? And the headline is, "Local Woman Continues Lie That She Will Make Banana Bread." And Kristin, doesn't that perfectly summarize why we hold on to a lot of things in our homes, but specifically in our pantry? It's like, oh yeah, these bananas are rotted, but don't worry, I'll just save them to make banana bread. That seems to be a metaphor for a broader problem. We'll just shove it here in the cabinet and deal with it later.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's a few things going on there. One, aspirational clutter.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  I, I think people have this ideal self, or they, they have this version of themselves they believe they should be. I'm the kind of person who's not wasteful. I'm the kind of person who bakes. But in reality, they may have just let the bananas go bad and they're trying to avoid the guilt. And so what I recommend is just intention starts at the grocery store. It doesn't start after you get the food into your home. So the reason our pantry looks the way that it does, it's me and my husband, is that he, I'm not going to say we, he is in charge of the food. Let me make that clear. He grocery shops, he cooks, he does the dishes. I do the cleaning and the laundry and it works beautifully. But he has a list.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  We have a capsule wardrobe of ingredients that we keep stocked. I have a pretty restrictive diet, so it looks a little, maybe a little tighter than the average person, but it's all really high quality ingredients, just like we talk about. Just have a few high quality pieces of clothing. It's the same with food. You can make endless delicious dishes with just a few things. And I think people get caught up in this aspiration of I'm going to cook this healthy recipe and that healthy recipe, when in reality, use up what you have in your pantry. Before you go to the store, take a look around. And this is harder if it's cluttered and you know, you can't even see to the back of the pantry. But before we ever, I'm going to, before Jonathan, there's no we going to the grocery store. Before Jonathan goes to the, I just want to be honest.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Before Jonathan goes to the grocery store, he takes stock of what we have. So he's not overbuying. And okay, what do we need to use up? What might I make this week to make sure that that's not going to expire or go bad? Also, if something's expired and it's not perishable, like fruit, canned goods, pasta, she mentioned a bunch of pasta, a lot of food pantries will take that. So you don't have to hold on to it out of guilt and force yourself to eat it. You can take it to a food pantry, even if it's slightly expired. There's a place in Richmond where I live called Feedmore. And there's probably a place like that in every city. You go to their website and they usually have a list of what they'll accept, how far past the expiration date it can be. And that, that strips away a lot of the guilt.

• 8:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When I lived in Dayton, Ohio, there was a really great food bank, a homeless shelter, that would also give people meals, even if they weren't homeless, but they were in need. And there were some of the most gourmet meals that I've ever prepared because it's always like Trader Joe's, everything is expiring today. So you get like 14 different types of gourmet cheese and the macaroni and cheese that we're making at the soup kitchen. And it was remarkable. And so like, just because it's expired right or getting ready to expire right now, it doesn't mean that it's not usable. But also, it makes me think about a lot of the things that we bring into our homes and keep holding on to. They are

• 9:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  inside that period of obsolescence. I know I'm not going to use this, but I also know I don't want to deal with it now. And I think it's even more dangerous when it's in a pantry or a closet or a cabinet or it's an attic somewhere. We say out of sight, out of mind, but we know it's there. We know we're gonna have to deal with it someday. TK, Krista mentioned the shame, and I think that's a big part of that. Even here, I could hear it in Tatiana's question. Something as simple as like spaghetti and rice. And it's like, there's a little bit of like, oh, maybe I have too much of this, or maybe I shouldn't buy as much as I do buy, or why am I holding on to this if I want to be a good minimalist? Help me unpack some of that shame.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of the shame, not all, not all, not all, but most, comes from internalizing the voice of others. People who have criticized us in the past for smaller things, or surprising things, or superficial things. And by a very early age, we develop a really good ability to anticipate all of the different ways people may not like us. And that can lead to a lot of insecurity, and it can lead to a lot of shame, even though we haven't done anything wrong, because we know, well, if anyone finds out, like, think about your home right now. Are you ashamed of your home? Are you feeling any shame right now about your home? Probably not. But if someone paid a surprise visit and was like, hey, I'm gonna pop in, you might start to think, oh, I didn't straighten that pillow out. Oh, wait.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  A minute, did I, did I clean the shower? Cause I meant to do that, like, did I, I made coffee this morning? Did I sufficiently clean up after myself? We're really good at anticipating the things that people might say or feel when they see us for who we really are, when they look into our cabinets, so to speak. And so there could be some of that there. And I think when we have these kinds of moments, it's just an opportunity to upgrade our patterns by using these circumstances as a mirror. Maybe I did buy too much, so I use a solution like what Kristen suggested here. And I say, next time I exercise a little bit more moderation in what I buy, because I have discovered about myself that I don't consume as much as I would like or as much as I thought.

• 11:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There's a famous tautology, nothing succeeds like success. But if I were to amend that, I'd say nothing exceeds like excess. And I think we have these sort of repositories for excess, that it's easy to just throw things in there and that the shame will creep up later because other people might come over and see it. Or I'm just like, I don't want to be the type of person that owns all this stuff. And so I have these photos, we'll put them up on the screen here of, I had Kristen send this to Matt. And so we'll have Tomcat put this up on the screen here. But these are pictures of her pantry. You should have them there in front of you, TK. Take a look at this. To me, it's like, uh, it's a borderline, it's like a retail store.

• 12:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, I have OCD, so I totally resonate with this. But I will say this, this is aspirational for someone like me, but I also know that it's not practical for someone like me. And here's why, if I live by myself, this is exactly how my cabinets would look. I live with my wife and my daughter and they have different food needs than me. And they also have different sort of organizational desires. And TK, I'm, I'm interested here because. If it was a big enough priority for me to make my pantry and cabinets and drawers look this good, I would, but it's not a big enough priority. And so I have a different boundary from Kristen.

• 12:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ultimately, I would love this if it was just handed to me. I showed up and, and Bex was now doing our, our cabinets like this. I'd be like, wow, that's amazing. That's really calm, but it's not a cost that I'm willing to pay. And so I'm, I'm wondering if you have any insights about, about like, if I'm not willing to pay the cost, then I need to be able to accept the way that things are right now.

• 13:22Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And, and this gets easier when you sort of reframe your conception of love as, as something that is more relative than what we often appreciate. We speak of love in absolute terms. I love my wife. I love this cup of coffee. I love this person. I love the game of basketball, but you know, in the spirit of the old saying, everyone has a price, that's also true with respect to love, that there are always prices we are not willing to pay for the things that we say we love. Just because I love coffee doesn't mean I'm willing to pay $80 for a cup of it. There's a price you could charge me, a trade off you could invite me to make that would cause me to say, ah, I'm very sad that I can't have a cup today, but I do choose to go without because I love it, but not to the tune of $80.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  I love it as long as it only demands this much of me. And that's true with all of our priorities in life. And so you love this level of organization, but you love being in harmony with your wife and your daughter more. You love seeing them happy more. You love your space being for us more. And so you make that trade off. You don't love this enough to compromise that.

• 14:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so Kristen, I'm interested in you. Why is this appealing or how is this appealing enough to you that you are willing to, to pay the cost?

• 14:37Speaker 02

  I'm glad you asked because I, I never want someone to look at my space and feel like I'm pointing a finger and saying, your space should look like this too.

• 14:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I've never felt that way with you, even though I find it aspirational and really calming in a way that I find like, if you go to a cathedral, really calming. I don't want my house to be a cathedral either.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, well, that's exactly why I do it for a few reasons. My home is my sanctuary. And there's no place in the world I'd rather be. I also spend the majority of my time there because I now work from home with Minima and my employees provide the in-person services. So if it's somewhere that I'm spending that much time, I really value the way that it impacts my nervous system, my well-being. But also, I think the ex-architect, that was my background prior to organizing, really appreciates creating order and beauty in everything. And it's not, it doesn't come from a place

• 15:36Speaker 02

  of anxiety, although I've noticed that sometimes, like before I leave for a trip, I feel like every personality trait has a dark and a light side, right? My light side of this is I'm moving about my house. I only have one or two things on the calendar. That's like the perfect day. I'm getting a lot done, but I'm taking a nap and the bunnies are out playing and my husband's working in the office with me. And it's just like beautiful and calm and relaxing. And I'm, you know, I'm maybe opening the pantry and just aligning something that's out of place and it gives me a little dopamine hit. Like it feels better than buying something new because I'm just, you know, making something look beautiful.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  The dark side of it is when I'm trying to go out of town or I feel anxious about something coming up that feels out of my control. I mean, everything's out of our control, right? But you kind of know when something's really, really, really unfamiliar. That's when I'm going around and making sure my husband's hairs aren't on the couch and like zhuzh-ing things for the, it goes into like a borderline OCD tendency, like an unhealthy behavior. And I recognize when that happens. So, but most of the time, it does just come from a desire to create beauty and peace. And, I mean, a lot of times when my friends come over to visit, they say it feels like a giant exhale. They're like, oh, I feel so much better. I needed this. And I'm like, I'm glad I could give that to you.

• 17:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you can also realize that you can do that within your own space. My home also feels like a giant exhale to me and to other people when they come over.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really nice.

• 17:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And but what I'll say is that there is a level of disorder or chaos that I wouldn't be willing to accept. Like, I'm willing to accept within reason. I think that if you were to look at 100 different pantries, I think ours would probably be in the top 10 percentile of organized. It's just there are levels to organization. And if I look at, if I look at Kristen's, I'm like, oh, this is the top 0.1%.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Okay, well, just for all of the listeners out there, I did take a moment to finger space the jars before I took the picture. Okay, they're not always that perfect.

• 17:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I will say that there is one cabinet I keep in our kitchen completely empty, just to prove to myself you don't have to fill every space. And I was in there this week, I opened it up just to make sure it was still empty. No one was keeping anything in there. And you know what? There was one glass in it. And I was like, who put a, I'm sure it was Ella, it was fine. Someone put a glass in this cabinet, and I just moved it to where it was supposed to be. Oh, there's where that glass went. And it's just to prove to myself that like, I don't have to fill every nook and cranny with more things. But also, you have plenty of space already.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  Hey, by the way, Kristen is so organized, is so attentive to detail. She's done it twice here. When she was telling the story about going to the grocery store, she corrected her when she spoke, it said we. And she was like, well, let me get that right. There's no we that's going to these grocery stores, right? And then she told us too, that she did this before taking a picture. Nobody, and I mean, nobody would have known, had she not told us. But she's got to keep it right, even in her mind, in the way she articulates the story. She's like, oh, wait, let me fix that. It's got to be right. Like, I gotta get these ideas in the right order. I love it. I love, I'm here for it. By the way, who's, who's more, if there was a competition between the two of you, who is more meticulous?

• 19:05Speaker 03

  Not, not how you have to be because of your living situation. But if you're single, and you're single, who's more meticulous?

• 19:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, yeah, that's a battle royale. I don't know. What do you think?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  I think you've met your match.

• 19:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think so too. I think, I think, I think Kristin is probably the most meticulous person I know. And I will say that we can even talk about this in a bit. I think there, as you pointed out, there could be a downside to that as well. I see it in my own life where if I, if I'm stressed out about something else in life, I, and this is a childhood, a childhood trait. Like I, my childhood was chaotic. And so I would start organizing things as a little kid, just because to try to have order somewhere, try to have control over something. And as soon as I recognize that, I find it's probably better just to go for a walk than to zhuzh the pillows a couple more times.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Yep. A walk always helps.

• 20:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Tatiana, I would encourage you to sign up for a clutter counseling session. Head on over to theminimalists.com, click counseling at the top. TK can help out with some of that. Physical clutter, emotional clutter, any other clutter that's going on there behind the clutter as well. Before we get back to our callers, let's take a peek at the question of the week. Look, that even rhymes, KZ. You walk up to your pantry, you open the door and scan the shelves for their contents. What's the most absurd thing you find? And why is it still there? Let's check in with our Patreon community chat. Emily said, I recently attempted to declutter my pantry, so I tossed some items and cooked off some

• 20:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  pasta to make some space. We use a lot of different spices, salts and vinegars regularly because my boyfriend is a professional chef, but I'm constantly digging around to find things when I'm cooking. How do we make ingredients more accessible? Kristin, will you tell Emily to make her cabinets, pantry, whatever, more functionally organized?

• 21:10Speaker 02

  I think you all call it the out in the open rule. And it's a key step when we're working. Again, not we, my employees are working in person with our clients. Because you just can't, TK, you said, if you can't, if you can't see it, you can't solve it. That was your like minimal maxim. And so pull everything out, sort into categories. Everybody's pantry categories are going to be different, but in general, it might be breakfast, pasta and grains, canned goods.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Bread, snacks, kids, like a kids section, fruits, vegetables, stuff like that, whatever the case may be for you, and include spices and oils in this. That's not always part of the pantry. Sometimes that's part of the kitchen. And just go through and be real about what you are going to use in the future. Pull out what's expired. And even if you're going to use it, ask yourself, could I, could I function better in my kitchen without this? Because something I learned studying architecture is that restriction breeds innovation and creativity. And I've learned that through watching my husband cook. I've learned that through my wardrobe and my constant, near constant.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Every time I have an event or something coming up where I'm, my impulse is I need to get something specific for this. And I always end up, if I do react to that impulse or give into that impulse, I end up returning whatever it was that I thought I needed. And so I'm costing myself extra time and energy and just wearing something I already had. So really ask yourself, if you feel like your space is limited and you feel like, you know, things are just, you're constantly digging around. Maybe ask if there are some things you could do without for a while or just give it a try. And I also think, so I recently did a consultation for a client who, her business is recipe testing. And one thing I said to her was, let's just be real about who you are now,

• 23:04Speaker 02

  not who you were a year or two ago, not who you might be a year or two from now. But what are you focused on? Because she had gone through, so she was also, like you and I, struggled with her gut health and had been through many, many iterations. And there was just so much that she wasn't using, but I think she was still holding on to it. So for Emily, I think just being real with what you all desire to prepare going forward.

• 23:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Rebecca asks, my pantry has more hot sauce packets than we will ever use. But we, parentheses, he, needed them once and we, he, may need them again. I don't fight the hot sauce fight. TK, how do we know when to fight the metaphorical hot sauce fight and when to just leave it alone?

• 23:53Speaker 03

  Hey man, you know, in the spirit of pick your battles, ask yourself, how much do I have to lose if I let the other person have this?

• 24:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 24:00Speaker 03

  Sometimes we, we think, well, if I fought hard enough, I can win it. But like, when you win, like, how big is that frickin' prize? And how much energy did you give up in order to claim that win? If they're a bunch of hot sauce packets, they're not spilling all over the house, you're not finding them under your pillows when you go to sleep at night, and you think you can live with it, then it might just be one of those times where you can say, I'll let this person have it.

• 24:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think understanding the why behind that is important, because if he's never using the hot sauce packets and they're just expired, then that's a different thing. I find the out in the open rule for your kitchen, it's two piles up front. It's expired, not expired. Because you might end up just getting rid of half or 80% of the stuff in your cabinets because it's all expired. You check those dates and you're like, 2021?

• 24:44Speaker 02

  I'm trying to think of the furthest back expired date that we've ever found with a client. I think it was like 15 to 20 years.

• 24:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, people hold on to things because, well, it's just there. We don't realize we're holding on to it anymore. It's like oxygen. I don't realize oxygen's all around me, but I sure am glad that it is. But the, the opposite of that is, I've just been there for so long, I didn't even realize it was there. I don't imagine, Kristen, your husband has a bunch of hot sauce packets in the kitchen, but is there anything like that that might surprise me?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Uh, he is a member of the exclusive Rancho Gordo Bean Club.

• 25:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Is that the episode title show?

• 25:21Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  There is a like, multi hundred or thousand person waitlist. He, I don't know, he really, they're beautiful. I, I don't fight him on the bean fight. That's like probably in those pictures of my pantry, those little round things, probably six of those jars are beans. He does eat them though.

• 25:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  And they're really healthy and they're beautiful. He'll soak them overnight in a glass bowl and there's like white ones and burgundy ones and solid black ones and it's.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  I'm glad he's excited about it and it's a healthy food, so.

• 25:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I find aesthetics are really important to you and they're important to me as well. I think like Erwin Manisch said on this podcast once, he said, "The beauty is essential." And when we think about it that way, the function of a flower, the beauty is essential to a flower to attract the bees, but I would say beauty in our space is essential. Now, beauty in that sense is more perspectival. I think there probably is such a thing as objective beauty, but I don't want to go down the morality conversation just now, but like there probably is an objective beauty, but then there's also the subjective beauty. This is what is calming to me. And so I think there's a relationship between beauty or aesthetics and your own sort of mental wellbeing. Has that been the case for you?

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Part of why our home looks the way that it does is because I have such high standards. Most things I don't want to own. And I'm fortunate that I have a husband who is kind of like, "Yeah, whatever you want to buy. I don't care." If you, he has a great eye and I'll run things by him, but it is not a collaborative effort and I love that. That's what works for us. But yeah, being around beauty, what I find to be beautiful. Some people have told me, like strangers on the internet, they hate my space. They think it's sterile and looks like hospital or something.

• 27:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Nobody really lives there.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  No, and you don't live there. What's wrong with you? This is a reflection of childhood trauma. Like, isn't everything? I don't know.

• 27:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's the honest one. It's always that comment, right?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Here's a mirror dude. Yeah, but I just, I, like I said earlier, there's nowhere I'd rather be than home. I just walk around feeling good, you know, and peaceful. And I think that that helps me do my best work and help others and. Yeah, approach the world.

• 27:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I was just doing a conversation with Cal Newport on the How to Write Better podcast. And he said something really fascinating to me. He said he likes to write in a bunch of different spaces. And I didn't catch, because he has a beautiful library, but then sometimes he'll go into a different room in the house, or he'll go to a coffee shop down the street to sort of be in these different environments. And so when you want a calm environment for you, you want your sanctuary, you go home. If you want something that is more visually stimulating, you have access to that, it might just not be in your home. Let's do one more from Rachel. She says, "My pantry is filled with expired cake mixes. My fantasy self is a baker, but my realistic self likes to buy things that are already made."

• 28:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, tell me about the fantasy self and how that gets us to acquire or hold on to things.

• 28:34Speaker 03

  Fantasy self is the version that maybe we wish we were, the version we choose to be if we could do it all over again. Maybe the version we still hold out some hope for one day becoming. And I'm a big fan of not being too hard on your fantasy self. I think if you have a fantasy self, whether you become the fullness of that or not, there is absolutely something valuable for you to learn through the contemplation of that idea. One thing I would suggest, though, is easing up on the pressure we place on our fantasy selves and leaning into the real self and using the real self as a way to facilitate an easier process for the fantasy self. So for instance, if you actually like to buy real cakes, but

• 29:17Speaker 03

  you have a fantasy self that wants to bake them, maybe you buy less stuff on the baking front, and you buy more real stuff. And by buying more real stuff, that can become a way for you to continuously engage this art of cake that you like so much, a way of feeding your inspiration. And maybe you can say, "You know, I don't have to start by baking a cake. I can start by like doing something to the one that I have. I can start by like playing around, by making this cake a little better. Can I embellish it? Can I add something to it that makes it look prettier, that makes it taste a little sweeter? Or can I just sit back and critique this cake? Is there something about it that isn't perfect? What is that?" And just zooming in on that a little bit, and then giving yourself a little more room.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Sometimes we procrastinate on the fantasy self because it's such a big myth. It's impossible to step into in one fell swoop, and we gotta give ourselves a little time and space.

• 30:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The question I often ask myself is like, whose dream or whose fantasy is it? Is it my fantasy self? Or is it some dream that someone else had for me? You should be a blank, fill in the blank. And so who assigned that to me? Is it me that's something I actually aspire to do? And it's an aspirational self for me? Or is it a prescriptive self that someone else said, you know what? I'd really like you more if you baked more cakes and did a good job of it. Obviously, we don't see that person as a friend if they were to say it that way. But how has society handed me that fantasy self? Actually, I want to do one more here.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  Hey, by the way, sometimes you want to be the flower, but you gotta let yourself be the bee. And you end up in the same place. And eventually, long enough, you start smelling like flowers.

• 30:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wendy said, "A box of silver cutlery that I will never spend time polishing." That's what is in her pantry. The most absurd item in Wendy's pantry is a box of silver, actual silver cutlery that she will never spend time polishing. It reminded me of this Rob Bell quote. He says, "Always eat on the fine china." He wrote about this in one of his books. He got this as a wedding gift, the fine china. And everyone just puts it in the china cabinet or a drawer or an attic or a storage locker. It's too nice to eat on. It's like, well, don't you want to eat on the nicest thing possible? Although I'm wondering, Kristin, do you own anything like real silverware or something else that you almost never use?

• 31:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 31:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're fairly utilitarian in that sense.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, we do have, I mean, I'm not completely utilitarian. I think you and I have talked about that before. Like, if I were completely utilitarian, I would not have the dining chairs that we have. They are wood with a paper cord seat. And if you spill any wine grease...

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Pasta sauce on those paper cord seats, it stains. But I learned through research after it happened that that's part of the beauty of it aging. And they're really expensive chairs. They're like Hans Wagner Danish original. Beautiful, very comfortable. So I had to let go of the fact that they were going to Patina over time. And that's been a really nice thing for me, living in a hundred and ten year old home, is that it's not ever going to be perfect.

• 32:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  But it's perfectly imperfect. And TK, you said something to me, I don't know if it was on the podcast and I thought you were saying it to me, or if it was on one of our calls, but it's all blurred. You said, if you go about life, this is about the aspirational self. If you go about life believing that no one hates your guts, just for you being you, you're delusional. And I've told that to so many clients who were just afraid to just own who they wanted to be. And it just reminds me that you can't ever please anybody. And there are a hundred percent people out there who are just gonna hate you. And so what? You said, I don't like most people anyway, so why do I care if they like me? And that doesn't mean like you hate most people. It's just like you don't care to include them in your life.

• 33:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, it's the performing for people will never meet is at an all time high. And we don't even recognize it. And I think it's amplified tremendously by, by the algorithm. And then needing that becomes a type of prism. How about you listeners? What's the most absurd thing in your pantry? Let us know in the comments. All right, give me something pithy TK. What's the most absurd thing in your pantry?

• 33:41Speaker 03

  If it's still there, it's teaching me something.

• 33:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, tell me more.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  Well, I believe that everything that anyone buys is a reflection of some value, some aspiration, some ideal. It's there for a reason, and the reason ain't you're crazy. You might think you're crazy or infer that as your conclusion, because maybe you're behaving in a way that's inconsistent with the story you're telling yourself. But at the end of the day, whether it's because of fear, a lack of knowledge, or whatever else it might be, you bought that thing. Because you're hoping for something, you're looking for something, you're chasing after something, or you believe in something and you see that as an externalization of it. For me, that thing is, da-da-da-da-da-da, bags of coffee.

• 34:25Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  When I go into a coffee shop, I so want to be a person that's like cool when it comes to coffee. And I, and my real self is the guy that does not know the difference between the coffee you get at Dunkin' Donuts, the coffee you get at a gas station, and the coffee you get at Blue Bottle. That's the real me.

• 34:41Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  But the fantasy me is the guy that understands, oh yeah, the Ethiopian and the, uh, and it's got the notes of the blueberry. I don't know what the heck people talk about. I don't taste any of that, but I wish I could. I'm aesthetic blind when it comes to coffee. And so I have these beautiful bags of coffee, about five of them, that, you know, I'm in a coffee shop and it feels like a really cool place. And the coffee looks cool and I read the description and the words are so pretty. And I'm like, I gotta have this coffee. And I, and I spend the money on that bag and I bring it home. And one day the fantasy self's gonna make it, man. And, and it just stays right there and I, and I just put the pods in every morning.

• 35:20Speaker 05

  No, no, not the pods.

• 35:24Speaker 03

  The pods.

• 35:25Speaker 05

  Do you have to go to confession for that?

• 35:28Speaker 03

  I might have to start.

• 35:28Speaker 05

  This is your confession, right?

• 35:30Speaker 03

  I didn't have to go to confession because I didn't know, but now that I know, I'm, I'm responsible. But here's my latest little solution for this. And I, I told Michelle this just a few days ago. I had a big aha moment. Once every month, our, our, our Lake Carmelite group meets and we have, it's like a full day. And, uh, yeah, we're together for like six hours. And my little contribution to the community is I make coffee for everyone. And I, I always use the, the, the coffee that's at the church and, and I'm just super practical with it. It's just the Folgers coffee, uh, Folgers coffee. But I told Michelle, I says, you know what? I'm gonna start using the fancy coffee that I have.

• 36:06Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  For those Sundays. And, and I did it one time and I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but that was literally the only time that people in the group came to me and says, can you make some more coffee? You know, we're out of coffee.

• 36:19Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 03

  That never happened with the Folgers.

• 36:20Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  That's an anti-advertising, I guess. Never happened with the Folgers, but with the fancy coffee, they wanted more. So I'm gonna start doing that. So I found my way out, man.

• 36:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love that.

• 36:29Speaker 05

  If the best part of waking up is folders in your cup, we've got some issues.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  I don't even drink coffee, so I wouldn't know the difference.

• 36:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, I got something pithy for you, Krista. Talk to me about this. So, so I wrote this down.

• 36:50Speaker 03

  She said, go back to her bed.

• 36:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Have you seen those commercials, the guys getting out and he's like, and then I hear the, this is really good marketing. Cause I don't know if you've ever had Folgers, but it's like taking hot water and stirring it with a brown crayon.

• 37:07Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 37:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think it's a David Foster Wallace or maybe Rick Moody reference, but like, that's kind of what it, it, have you ever tasted Folgers? It's just like, oh, oh, it's, yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Coffee impersonator.

• 37:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There you go. Yeah. Yeah. It's dressed up like coffee, but you know, it's not actually Elvis. So this is an impersonator, right?

• 37:29Speaker 03

  I can see Krista getting out of bed, walking to the kitchen. It sounds like we're out of the fancy coffee, but I made you some Folgers. And she just walks right in.

• 37:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Pulls the covers over her head.

• 37:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right. All right. I got something. I got something pithy here. The absurd things we keep are placeholders for unexamined habits. I think this sort of piggybacks on what TK was saying here is I'm holding on to something often because of a habit that I have, that I haven't really examined. It could be that I have a habit of just putting, buying things that are one use things. Like, oh, I need this for a recipe. I avoid this now, but there was a time where it's like, oh yeah, I really need time for this recipe. I'm never going to use it again. So I just put it in. So I'm buying these things. I know I'm only going to use once and then I just hold on to them. That is a type of habit. So when I start to examine the habits that I have, like, look at the things and say, okay,

• 38:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  what habit led to me holding on to this? It's instructive. It's instructive in a way that just getting rid of the stuff isn't instructive. You could do that with a house fire, right? That, that's not going to help you better understand why you're holding on to the things. But bringing everything out into the open, especially in your pantry, helps you examine like, what purchasing habits do I have? clinging habits do I have? What new habits would I need to develop in order to not have this many things in my pantry? Maybe it's just the once a month rule. At the beginning of each month, I do this every month with a bunch of things, but I replace like I charge certain devices need to be charged. And I replace the air filter and I do different things at the beginning of each month.

• 39:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I replace my toothbrush and then I also go and I look for expired items in the fridge and the pantry. So that, you know what? I don't want to deal with going through a whole day of dealing with expired things. I'll do that once, as soon as I do it, now I can just stay up to it every, every single month. Although I think practically, if I'm answering this question literally, the most absurd thing I own is an ice bath. But it's not absurd to me. And I think that's an important distinction to make here. What's the most absurd thing that you own? Well, absurd to who? I think most people think doing an ice bath every day is totally absurd. And I agree with you. If I didn't have chronic pain, I would, I don't know that I would feel compelled enough to do it. Right? But it has helped me so much. We even did a whole episode about it.

• 39:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because I was, my thought is if this helps a dozen people out of the millions of people that listen to the show, wonderful. And you don't have to spend any money for that. I used to, for years, just put some bags of ice in my bathtub. And, and that's not that practical if I want to do it every single day. And so eventually I made that call to purchase an outdoor ice bath. And I, every time that I'm, every day that I'm home, I do it at least once a day. And I think that's absurd for most people, but it's perfectly reasonable and even enjoyable for me. Well, the after the ice bath is enjoyable. Being in the ice bath is, is never enjoyable. So the point of, of that direction there is I think some people walk into Kristen's home and they'll say, this is absurd.

• 40:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you're like, yeah, for you, it probably would be because you're not willing to pay the cost of maintaining a home like this. Do you have anything that other people would think, or specific things you think people would think are absurd?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  That I own or that I don't own?

• 40:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, that's a good question. You tell me.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  I think a lot of people are surprised to find out that we have three pet rabbits that poop everywhere, all day.

• 41:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I was so shocked by this. It was in her office. And you have this, I don't know what, is this type of carpet?

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Like a sisal carpet tile.

• 41:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, right. And they're just hopping around on that carpet tile and poop, hop, poop, hop, all day.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  And if they sit one place for too long and move, there's like 20 poops. But it's not like cats or dogs. It's very, I just go around with the Dyson crevice tool and suck it up like multiple times a day. But for me-

• 41:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's the cost you're willing to pay.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, the cost of admission for the cute overload that I, it's like, I, you, here's what my morning routine looks like. Jonathan's already up at like, we don't use alarms. Jonathan's already up at like 5:30, 6 o'clock. I'm up at 6:00 or 6:30. He's already in the kitchen, preparing his breakfast, his coffee, heating up my millet bowl with blueberries. And our rescue rabbit Lola is out. And I take a little Kinton hypertonic water thing. Do you know about those?

• 42:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, not at all.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  It's like a supplement thing. And so I do that. And then I get a blueberry out and I sit on the ground and Lola runs at me and makes honking noises and climbs all over me to get the blueberry. Like, how can you feel stressed when that's your morning? You know, and then they're just, you know, I'm taking a work call and Nachi, one of our other bunnies, is just like running around, digging at my legs. And I'm like, how can I be stressed right now? You know, they just, it's very, ah, therapeutic. They're so cute.

• 42:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And for me, I feel like that would stress me out.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so what's, it's fascinating. The reason, there are two reasons that we don't have any pets. One is I'm allergic to most pets. So like, I have really bad seasonal allergies right now. But if I'm with a dog or a cat, like, it's just eyes watering. It's wild. But the other reason that is- Just as compelling for me is they poop. I don't own anything that poops. I don't want to own any. Imagine if your toaster just started pooping.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  It does crumbs a lot. Well, that's why I don't do toast. All that and the gluten. Might have to minimize the toaster.

• 43:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  Crumbs ass toaster poop.

• 43:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, that's almost the end of page one. We still have a whole switchboard of callers. Chris, you're gonna love these callers coming up. But first, real quick, for right here, right now, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. It's a brand new month. April is here. Spring has sprung. And this spring, Ryan Nicodemus and I are going on tour. It's the Minimalism Tour 2026. We'll be in Ohio, California, Tennessee, and Montana. I think, I think Ohio, Dayton, Ohio is next week. And I don't know if there are any tickets left as of this recording, but if there are, make sure you grab some of theminilists.com/tour. Hope to see you there. We're doing a 10th anniversary screening of minimalism.

• 43:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We're also gonna do a live talk. We're gonna do an audience Q and A, a meet and greet, and we have a special surprise for you as well. These are some of our favorite theaters in the country, by the way. So we'll be in Dayton, Ohio, Ojai, California, Franklin, Tennessee, and Missoula, Montana. Also, speaking of live events, our Simple Haven Retreat sold out last week. And actually, by the time this comes out, a couple of weeks ago now, we've had a handful of people who weren't able to make it. And so I think as of this recording, we might have four tickets left or four seats available. If you want to spend three days with the minimalist next month, me and Ryan Nicodemus and TK, our team will be there.

• 44:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We've got a bunch of surprises for you. It's a whole weekend of letting go at the Ojai Art Center here in California. We'd love to see you there. You can find details also at theminimalists.com. Just click the events page there. You can find all the tour stops and Simple Haven. Join us for the mountains, the sunshine, the orange groves. And it's just 30 people. We're gonna be meeting for three days. We'll be two days at the Art Center, and then we have an extra day there. We have the screening at the Ojai Playhouse. Spend three days with the minimalist. That's May 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Theminimalists.com for details. Much more coming up, but first, here is a quick minimalist tip from one of our listeners.

• 45:17Speaker 06

  Hey you guys, this is Courtney and this is just a listener tip for those who want to explore a little more algorithm control on their Instagram specifically. A lot of you might already know this, but one thing that's really helped me is being able to reset my algorithm. You can just type that into Google and ask, "How do I reset my algorithm?" And it will give you a very simple step-by-step way to do that. And what I love about it is then you can very intentionally choose what and who you're going to follow. And it's such a nice refresh. And also, even if and when you go back into your old habits, you can just do it again. And you kind of just realize what your habits are and what your triggers are and the things that lure you in.

• 45:59Speaker 06

  So either way, you're learning, but you also have the freedom to start fresh and really curate what you want to see. So that is accessible anywhere and maybe common knowledge to a lot of people, but that's been very helpful for me if that's something that someone needs where they need to stay on Instagram for some reason, but they just kind of want to begin again. So I hope this is helpful for you and thanks so much.

• 46:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Courtney, thank you for that super informative comment. I've never even thought about resetting my algorithm, have you?

• 46:29Speaker 02

  No, but if I am on Instagram and an ad pops up, I always say, "Inappropriate."

• 46:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes. That's how we ask the new channel, "Ads are inappropriate."

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Well, my husband was like, "All I ever see is ads when I scroll." I was like, "I almost never see ads." Because I'm just like, "Nope, nope, nope."

• 46:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Maybe you're training it to say like, "All right, we can't give her ads." That's interesting. Yeah, the ads that I get are, they're too good. That's why I came up with the Instagram purchase rule for me is I'd never buy anything from an Instagram ad. And I shouldn't say I've never done it, I have done. That's why I have this rule now, because I've been burnt by it every time I have done. At best, the thing I get is mostly adequate. That would be like, that's the five star of the thing. Usually it's like, "What is this drop shipped piece of crap?" That was sent to me four weeks late. And yeah, I just, I found that buying something from an ad on Instagram,

• 47:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  they're super targeted and they know how to really push your buttons in a way like, they know that I'm always looking for a good black T-shirt. And I just have learned that it's not worth doing. And that sucks because there might be something out there that is actually worth purchasing, but it's been spoiled by everyone who's been so good at manipulating the advertising game.

• 47:55Speaker 03

  What I like about this tip is it sounds a lot more efficient than mine. Mine is after finding out about the app tracker is I pull up my grid and then I just stare at whatever Key and Peele video is there for like 30 seconds to say, this is what I'm focused on. This is what I want more. And then the next time I flip, it's like five Key and Peele videos. And I just like look at all five and move my eyes around. Until eventually there's nothing but Key and Peele on my face.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  I got down a Key and Peele rabbit hole after one of our conversations. And then they started popping up. They're so good.

• 48:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know what's fascinating about this? You're making me think about with the eye tracking stuff. Bex upgraded her phone at the end of last year or beginning of this year, right around the same time Savvy D did. And she had a really old iPhone, like, I don't know what it was, a 10 or 11. It was like six or seven years old. It got to a point where it was barely working anymore. And so she upgrades to the newest model. And she said, almost immediately, my Instagram ads changed. And it was all of these companies telling me how old I am getting and how they have an opportunity for me to fix that. And so it seems to me that the camera's picking up like, oh yeah, this is a 43 year old woman.

• 49:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Let's prey on insecurities. What's the average insecurity of a 43 year old woman? And here's the data set of that. And here are the 10 different products that I can then sell to those people based on. And often that's what terrible marketing does. And we've heard Seth Godin talk about this. It takes advantage of people's insecurities. That's not good marketing. You can market in a compelling way that is also ethical, but it's preying on people's insecurities. So they give you money to solve a problem they didn't even know they had yesterday. But the ads are assuring them now that they have that problem. We've got a lot more to talk about, y'all. If anyone else has a listener tip or insight

• 49:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  about this episode, send a voice memo, [email protected], so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 50:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two-hour maximal edition of episode 534. I broke out pictures. I just had my wife send me pictures of our pantry. I said, "Don't touch anything. I want to show our watchers and our listeners exactly what it looks like right now." So, we were able to scrutinize my kitchen together. We also answered a bunch more questions here, like, "How can Tom design a minimalist, family-friendly home that stays functional and clutter-free with young kids and a busy lifestyle?" Also, "How can Cassie comfortably host out-of-town guests if she no longer has a guest room?" And, "What do you do when you're ready to declutter, but your partner's attachment

• 50:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to your things holds you back?" All that, and a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to the very first episode in 2015. That's a lot more of less. Shout out to Kristin Ziegler for joining us today. You can check her out at minimonline.com. Also, she's very active on Instagram. You can find her there, @minima_organizing. Is that right?

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 51:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, beautiful. We'll put a link to both of those in the show notes. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things.

• 51:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.