500 | Accidental Wisdom

The Minimalists talk about the root cause of identity clutter, the best ways to celebrate while letting go, how to minimize the things you rarely use, some of our favorite memories from the last 500 episodes, and much more. Discussed in this episode: Why am I having trouble letting go of an old membership that I don't use? (2:12) What are our all-time favorite episodes of The Minimalists Podcast? (15:13) Right Here, Right Now: The Minimalists speak about social media clutter at TEDxFargo. (39:46) Listener tip: Three questions that will improve your social interactions. (42:31) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  This podcast has bad words.

• 0:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, hello everybody. Welcome to the Minimalist Podcast where we discuss what it means to live a meaningful life with less. My name is Joshua Fields Milburn and joining me here at Earthing Studios in West Hollywood, California is my good friend TK Coleman. The Oracle of Oak Park is in the house. Aw, man, it's time to celebrate today. Why? Because this is episode 500, y'all. Yes, alright. Oh, yes, we've got a lot to talk about today. Coming up on this free, public, minimal episode, a caller has a question about a specific item that is causing identity clutter in her life. And then Ryan Nicodemus is back. He's going to join us for the lightning round

• 1:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to celebrate some of our favorite memories from the last 500 episodes. He's also going to join us on page three to talk about how to declutter your home without completely losing the plot. As always, you can find the full two-hour maximal edition of this episode where we answer three times as many questions on Patreon. The link is in the description. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement free because sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. 500 episodes, not a single advertisement. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or comment for our show, we'd love

• 2:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to hear from you. Our phone number is 406-219-7839, or you can email a voice recording to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Terry.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Hi, my name is Terri Kuntz and I'm from Los Angeles. My loving parents have kept me on their AAA for years. It has been their gift to me every Christmas. I am now 56 years old and it shows I've been a member for 53 years. A member since I was three? Because it's a memory and funny when you look at the timeframe, I cannot let it go. However, my husband now also has me on his AAA. So now we're paying for both cards because I can't get rid of my parents' account. Can you help me?

• 2:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh TK, why is Terri having trouble letting go of this thing? This card that she doesn't even use?

• 3:01Speaker 03

  It's always the stories that make the stuff sticky. Things are not living. They can't have the ability to push back and say, no, you're not getting rid of me. You know, it's not like the horror movies where you know, you take that Ouija board and you throw it in the garbage and then you come back home and it's sitting on the table. Or you take that haunted doll, you throw it out, you come back home, it's sitting there. Things don't do that. You know, you've put them in the garbage, they stay there. You give them away, they stay away. So what's holding on to the thing? What's making it so sticky? It's the story. What would it mean for me if I let this go? Who would I become? Or what would I lose if I let this go? What would I be saying to someone? How ungrateful would it make me? These are the kinds of things.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  And so you have this history of being able to tell a certain story that feels good. And that's okay. Part of what feels good about this story is that it's just funny, right?

• 3:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  It's funny to have been a member of AAA since you were three years old. And that's a good cocktail party joke. You know, every once in a while, pull out that card and say, hey, check this out, check this out. That's funny, right? And that's something that, you know, could be a little tough to let go. But also your parents, it shows that they've looked out for you from a very long time ago. And they've thought about your future and planned for your future. And that's got to symbolize something pretty good, right? And that matters. But you don't need it anymore. But in order to let this go, you're gonna have to find a way to tell a story that means something to you without looking at the card, the membership card, as being the author of that story. So I don't think you have to let go of this story.

• 4:40Speaker 03

  But I think it's about reclaiming the power of being the storyteller.

• 4:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think I see three different types of clutter here. There's the physical clutter, the card itself, right? There's the financial clutter. It's like, I'm paying for this thing. This is like a subscription service for a thing that you no longer use. And we actually have those already. They're called storage lockers. We have a subscription service every month and we pay a hundred dollars to store a bunch of things we'll never use again. Now, not everyone does that. Some people use storage lockers as a temporary place to keep their things during a move. And there are plenty of appropriate uses for a storage unit. But when it becomes a subscription service to hoard things that are obsolete now, now I'm paying to hold on to the thing that I don't even use. And that's what's

• 5:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  happening here. But then I think the bigger thing is, it has to do with that story. I would just call it identity clutter, right? And your identity is constructed with memories and opinions and desires. But I would say that every label that is clung to becomes a false identity. And that can be something as silly as, I am a AAA member. That's my identity. Of course, you would never say like, oh, what do you do? I'm a AAA member. I have been one for 50 years, right? It's like, okay, well, we don't identify with that. But sneakily, we kind of do. And it can be anything. And for me, I have different identities that I've struggled with over time. I think back to

• 6:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  my corporate days, I belonged to the Dayton Racket Club. It occupies the top two floors of the tallest building in downtown Dayton, Ohio. It's a 30-story building. And it's a beautiful view. You realize just how flat Ohio is when you get up there and you're on the 29th floor, or whatever it is. And the Dayton Racket Club, they have a gym, they have a restaurant, and they have, well, racquetball, right? And I'd never play racquetball. And I remember when I left the corporate world, I had to give up my membership to the Dayton Racket Club. And even though I never played racquetball, I felt like I was losing a piece of my identity.

• 6:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm the type of person who belongs to the Dayton Racquet Club. And isn't that what the identity says? I belong here. I'm supposed to be here. This is who I am. There are other silly ones, too. I think about when Nick Ademas and I were doing a lot of tour stops. And we would stay at a lot of different Hilton properties. The Hampton Inns and the Hilton Garden Inn. And you've stayed in quite a few with us, too, TK. And for the longest time, I was a Diamond member. A Hilton Diamond member. Now, there are some things to recommend being a Hilton Diamond member. You get some additional perks. You get a better parking space at some of these hotels. They give you additional things. They give you money off. They give you free breakfast.

• 7:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  They give you these things that you actually benefit from. But the main thing you benefit from, and the reason you build up brand loyalty, is because I'm a member. I'm not just a member. I'm a Diamond member. That's who I am as a person. And we stopped touring as much. I lost my Diamond status. And I'm probably a Gold or Silver member now. And every time I go there, I'm like, oh, I guess I'm a little bit less adequate than I was a decade ago. But I realize it's just the story. And yeah, maybe I don't get the same free breakfast anymore. That's the utility of that membership. But we're talking about the identity is everything beyond the utility.

• 8:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And let's face it, Terry isn't using that membership at all right now. I think about one other thing. There's this Oura ring that I wear on my ring finger on my left hand. It's a sleep tracker. And it also is an activity tracker. And at the beginning of this year, I had this streak for about 45 days where I had met my activity goal every single day. And I'm like, oh, maybe, maybe I can do it every day this year. And I realized, oh, wait a minute, I'm clinging to an identity. I'm forcing myself and that forcing doesn't necessarily feel good. I'm the type of person who always hits their activity goal. This isn't even something I share with anyone else. It's just a personal goal that I didn't even construct that goal.

• 9:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  They're handing me that goal. And so in the middle of February, you know what I did? I intentionally took the ring off for the day. I don't know whether or not I hit my activity goal that day, but I forced myself to break the streak. Because I realized I didn't want to be a slave to the streak, to someone else's goal that they had handed to me.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Oh, man. And that reveals the most powerful aspect of this all. Because the clutter isn't just the financial clutter of paying the memberships. The clutter isn't the physical clutter of having to keep the card or having to wear that ring. The real clutter is the identity clutter of giving someone or something else the power to tell you who you are. We all have that need for validation. We want to feel like we belong. And businesses can do a good job at giving us perks and memberships that make us feel like family. Because like you said, when you're a Diamond member and you walk in there, sometimes you just wanna go where everybody knows your name. Good evening, Mr. Coleman. Oh, wow, I belong in this place, right? I belong here.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  But that's something that I want, I want to build that for myself. I want to create that with meaningful relationships that I still have, even when I'm not giving away money. Because you know, the thing about the Diamond membership, I used to be Diamond too, when I used to travel all the time for work. But man, when you stop spending your dollars there, that diamond goes away. You just go back to me and what's up, dude? You know, oh, wait a minute, I thought it was Mr. Coleman. No, man, your diamond expired. Go park in the back. This is a relationship that's built on money. I want that feeling of family and validation to come from something more real. Here's the other thing I want to say is, Remember what it's for. Anything that's valuable in life, remember why it's valuable. Because this informs you on what to do with it.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  So let's imagine that when you were beginning to come of age to where your parents were ready to send you off to school, they made some huge sacrifices and said, we want our child to be in the best school. And so we're going to go live in this neighborhood that we don't even want to be in, just so we can get in the right zip code and get her into the best schools. What a sacrifice, right? What great parents who laid it all down for you. And you go to that school and then in your adult years, you say, well, my parents went through so much pain to send me to that school. I think I'm going to go back and return to kindergarten.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  Oof.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  I think I'm going to retake my first grade class in order to honor my parents. No, no, no, no, that's not what it's for. Why did your parents do that? Your parents did that. They made that sacrifice because they wanted you to receive the kind of education that would help you to make good decisions as an adult. Now you have that. You've got all the value you're going to get from that. And you would actually dishonor your parents if as an adult, you chose to go repeat kindergarten in first grade and second grade, wasting time when the things that education has prepared you for, you're now free to go do. In a similar way, why did they put you on the insurance plan? Because they wanted to have the security of knowing that if anything ever happened to you, anything that could disrupt your life or keep you from being a healthy adult

• 12:14Speaker 03

  with options, they wanted to make sure you were covered. And they got you through that stage of life. And now here you are, a healthy adult who's able to make decisions. The goal has already been accomplished. To continue to pay AAA and donate money to them in an effort to honor your parents, it's actually the other way around. The best way to honor your parents is to use the resources that you worked so hard for, to use your energies and your talent, to now invest in something else that carries forward the spirit of your parents. Invest in making someone else's life better. Invest in expressing your creativity. Invest that money and that time and that energy and that pride and that sense of identity. And learning new things and being there for your family.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  That's the best way to honor your parents because that's what insurance is for.

• 13:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hmm, yeah, and also realizing that as you let go of this card, you're also letting go of that subscription, the money clutter that you're holding on to. You're letting go of the identity clutter. This is a time to celebrate. You don't have to, I mean, you can feel however you want to feel. I'm not going to tell you how to feel, but I do want to point out that you don't have to do this in a state where it feels like loss. It can feel like celebration. In fact, coming up, we're going to talk about our graduation day episode we did. I think it was 437 where you're reframing a bit of the, the, the letting go. You're reframing some of the negative, so-called negative events, the divorces, the moving on, the letting go, and it becomes a, a type of, of celebration of sorts.

• 13:46Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 13:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, Terry, I know you are in Los Angeles. We'd love to see you at our next Sunday Symposium. It is September 28th in Los Angeles. Also, we'll be in Orange County and Santa Barbara coming up soon. We do these Sunday Symposiums, the final Sunday of each month here in Southern California, Orange County, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles. You can get your tickets for free over at sundaysymposium.com. They always sell out, so if your event is sold out, just put your name on the waitlist. We'll let you know when some tickets open up. Okay, before we get back to our callers, it is time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week. Joining us on the phone for this very special lightning round is my best friend and longtime

• 14:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  accomplice, Ryan Nicodemus, y'all.

• 14:35Speaker 05

  What's up? Baby.

• 14:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 14:38Speaker 05

  Hey, thanks for having me.

• 14:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ryan, I hope we can have a civilized conversation today without any dick jokes.

• 14:46Speaker 05

  You know that's not going to happen.

• 14:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's probably true. Now, as y'all know, the lightning round is where we attempt to answer questions with the short, shareable, minimal maxim. Listeners can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every week for free if you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.com. All right, the question of the week this week. What's your all time favorite episode of the minimalist podcast? Question of the week, what is your all time favorite episode of this very podcast? You know, it's been 500 episodes now, Nicodemus, and we'll get to our pithy answers.

• 15:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We're going to talk about it a bit here, but let's see what some of our listeners had to say first. Sean said, I have learned so many insights from the episodes that I initially thought I wouldn't even be interested in. My favorite episode was the grounding episode with Clint Ober, but I tend to get some accidental wisdom from almost every episode. Yes. You know, it's no secret that earthing completely changed my life. We've talked about that on that episode and elsewhere, and I really enjoyed getting to know Clint Ober on that episode. If you're looking for it, it's in the archives, episode 340. Also, Ryan, I was thinking maybe accidental wisdom should have been the name of this podcast.

• 16:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We know we said it on the minimalist, but I think that would have worked like, oops, accidental wisdom.

• 16:21Speaker 05

  You know what? Let's do it. Let's go for a whole brand change right now.

• 16:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  For episode 500, accidental wisdom. I love it.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  That's great.

• 16:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Jackie said, my favorite episode was graduation day. It was episode 437 because of the reframing of endings as graduations, not as disappointments. And because of Ryan and Josh's hysterical banter at the end about Ryan's mom calling Josh handsome. Does she still call me handsome, Ryan?

• 16:52Speaker 05

  Let's move on.

• 16:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hey, wait a minute.

• 16:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know what's fascinating?

• 16:59Speaker 05

  Of course, Josh.

• 17:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, tell her I said hi. You know, we reframe difficult events sometimes as a celebration. I think it can be really empowering because you're also honoring the struggle in some way. In fact, this is episode 500 and, you know, Ryan, there's been a lot of struggle over the last 10 years, last decade that we've been doing this podcast, but we can still use this moment as an opportunity to celebrate. But I guess, Ryan, I have an important question for you. Are you prepared to call me stepdad if?

• 17:33Speaker 05

  I'll never call you father.

• 17:38Speaker 05

  I will never call you father.

• 17:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Jackie, I love that episode too. Graduation Day, we had Danny Annon was graduating. Professor Sean, who's actually back with the team now, working on in a different capacity with us. And I think that's the interesting thing TK about graduating. I have my brother-in-law, he graduated from his high school in Minnesota. And then years later went back to be the guidance counselor. He didn't get a divorce from the high school, but it was time to move on. But then he came back in a radically different capacity. What is it about reframing that's so empowering?

• 18:12Speaker 03

  It means you leave in a way that allows you the, the option of just being true to yourself. However, you evolve without necessarily being committed to this antagonistic relationship. Right? When you graduate, you can go forward, not back, but you can go forward with that party in a new way.

• 18:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's spot on. Ryan, Jessica said, I love the money clutter episode. How much is enough is such a profound question to ask ourselves. Man, I remember that, that episode with Ramit Sethi. I enjoyed some of his sort of anti-budgeting tips, which actually seemed a lot like a budget to me. We just, we, we got bogged down in semantics for a moment. He's like, I'm totally against budgeting. I'm like, okay, but what do you, uh, what do you, how do you manage your money? He described 17 things that sounded a lot like a budget to me. I'm like, oh, okay. If you're not, you just don't want to, you want to do those things and not call it a budget? That's totally fine with me, but that question is like, what is your rich life? Well, how much is enough? We never stop to consider how much is enough.

• 19:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ryan, why, why do you think it is that we, we keep pursuing more? Is it because we don't ask what is enough?

• 19:20Speaker 05

  Oh man, I, I think for me, it's because if something is making me content or happy, I don't ever think to myself like, oh wow, I'm content and happy. Like my brain goes to, if I had more of whatever this is, I'm going to be happier. I'm going to be more content. And I think that's where I go wrong is I never stop to consider that maybe this is my peak happiness. This is my peak content. With something like, I think about when I used to have trouble with like drugs and alcohol. I mean, that's what it was. It was a matter of like me having a drink or two and be like, oh, I feel pretty loose. I feel pretty giggly and, and, and good. And then, you know, two drinks turns into 27

• 20:02Speaker 05

  and the next thing you know, I have a problem. And the same thing goes, is true with our stuff and goes, goes with our stuff as well. It's like, just because I have like one book and I really enjoyed that book, and this isn't a knock on TK. I know he really enjoys his books. But for me, but for me, I know it's like, just because I have one book and I like it, like my brain says, well, get another one. And maybe that's true, but there is a limit. I mean, if, if TK's house was just filled with boxes of books overflowing his bookshelves overflowing his closet, he wouldn't be happy. But TK does know what's enough for him and his wife when it does come to books.

• 20:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, it's interesting, Ryan. You and I met in fifth grade. We were fat little fifth graders and we bonded over food a lot. We had relatively, now that you would call it just a traumatic childhood, right? And, and there was, you know, physical abuse in the homes and drugs and alcohol and poverty and, and all of these, the hallmarks of, I don't know, urban failure perhaps. And what I learned early on is we often seek more to get out of that moment of discontent. And as you said, like, you get that, that burst of pleasure. I mean, you and I used to eat a lot of ice cream sandwiches back in the day. And in your mind, you tell yourself that 11th ice cream sandwich is going to be as good as the first one, but it never is.

• 21:21Speaker 05

  Yeah. And perhaps it has something to do with like, growing up in that type of environment where there was a lot of trauma. There's a lot of discontent. There was money problems. You know, sometimes there was, you know, food problems. It's like, we didn't experience a lot of happiness. We didn't experience a lot of contentment. So when we got a taste of it, it's like, we just wanted to hoard as much as we could. And, uh, you know, no matter what you hoard, it will never make you happy.

• 21:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. And then TK, even when we have enough, we map that scarcity mindset onto the enoughness and it tells us that maybe it isn't enough.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. And sometimes this this often happens when people have a past that's characterized by lack, scarcity, insufficiency, and they finally get to a point where they have enough, but they're so not accustomed to having enough that they're still living according to the fears that define their past, and hoarding becomes a way to protect themselves from never going back to who they used to be.

• 22:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Talk to me a bit about unpacking some of those fears from the past so that we can no longer be afraid of them, TK.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, sometimes it just takes the simple exercise of taking inventory of our lives to see how we've evolved. You know, I've talked about this a lot when I talk about the concept of following your dreams. I always say, follow your dreams, but don't forget to let your dreams follow you, because as you follow your dreams and live according to your values, who you are fundamentally changes because you meet new people, you acquire new experiences. And sometimes we just have to step back and say, wait a minute, I've been on autopilot for a while. This isn't even my dream anymore. I don't even want this anymore. I've become someone different. I actually like different things, but I just haven't had the time to step back and look at things from the big picture to know that it's now time to upgrade my dreams. And it's the same way when it comes to fears. It's like, sometimes

• 23:06Speaker 03

  we just have to stop and go, oh, wait a minute, I'm not living in the home that I grew up in anymore. I'm not jobless anymore. I actually do have a different life. I actually succeeded at creating the thing that I want. I'm good now. I can afford to let that go, because even if that tactic, that strategy, that defense mechanism, coping mechanism was necessary in the past, it's no longer necessary now.

• 23:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ryan, I love this idea of upgrading your dreams, but downgrading your fears. I think that's kind of what TK is saying. Like, you know what, that fear that was, we got through that. We were able to bear the unbearable. And wow, now, once you realize I can bear the unbearable, it's no longer unbearable. It's that very, that very experience that makes it bearable finally. And, you know, I think about upgrading your dreams. If my dream was the same as it was when I was seven years old, it would be like, I want to own every Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle. That's my dream. And if I had never upgraded my dream from then, it would still, well, now I'd have every Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle. Maybe I'd have 10 of each, and it'd be more, more, more, but there wouldn't be more content behind that, Ryan.

• 24:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, man, you know, I want to bring it back to that question with the reframing. I mean, with our past, I think with my past, I'll speak to myself personally. It's like I've had to reframe what that past looks like. And yes, I've had to reframe what my dreams are. I've had to reframe my trauma. As an example, it's like, you know, I'd look at my stepdad, who was pretty abusive. And it took me a long time to like, let go of that and to reframe that. And I remember, you know, telling a story about how I gave him this moment of forgiveness and how powerful that was for me. But I was able to get there because I was able to reframe what happened to me. I used to look at him and be like, I can't believe how horribly you treat me. You treated me and I can't believe the things you did. And you're such an awful person. And it's like, now I look at it and I'm like, wow.

• 24:57Speaker 05

  Like, here is someone who really didn't know what they were doing. So there's a bit of a reframe, because, you know, the old me thought that he should have known and the truth is, is he shouldn't have known anything. And the other thing too, it's like, look at all the things that he taught me not to do, like how, he taught me how not to act in certain situations, how not to treat children. And I really did learn a lot from him in that way. And so maybe another way of looking at it is to really make the decision to tell your own story, the way you want to tell it. Like, we all have these narratives playing in our minds about how things went and why things are the way that they are. And those are the stories that we tell ourselves and we have the power to change those.

• 25:40Speaker 05

  And I think that the reframing question kind of hits that nail on the head. Like, that's also another term for reframing is just retelling your stories.

• 25:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and those lessons, you bring up a really good point about the lessons that we learn from the things we don't want to do. We don't want to repeat the mistakes of someone else. And there's a particular kind of, I don't know, reverse wisdom in that, which is a kind of accidental wisdom as well. The accidental wisdom of like, oh, wow, yeah, my mom was an alcoholic and that was a result of some trauma, some expectations. Oh, wow, maybe I'm actually realizing how harmful clinging to these false expectations can be. It can lean to all of these habits and these behaviors that I don't want to carry forward into my own life. And so in a weird way, that really difficult childhood, the pain of, or trauma, or suffering

• 26:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  of a childhood like that can lead to a kind of wisdom that you don't want to hold on to that anymore. That's exactly right.

• 26:35Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 26:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Jessica, thank you so much for that one. Yeah, that episode is with Ramit Sethi. It's called Money Clutter. It's episode 388, if you want to find it in the archives. Sarah said this. She said, "Any episode in which Joshua and Ryan show up with dick jokes."

• 26:57Speaker 05

  Oh, my goodness. You know, before that was called out to us, I mean, maybe there were 20 dick jokes. And now there's going to be like 40 of them every podcast that I'm on, and that's great.

• 27:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We have to do like, we'll have to like brainstorm this, to sit down and just write out a bunch of them, right? Like, like when in high school, they used to call you baby arm, Nicodemus. I still can't figure out why that was.

• 27:19Speaker 05

  Because I had really little arms.

• 27:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, moving on. Thanks for that one, Sarah. Claw Marks said, "Episode 11, which is called Sentimental, is my absolute favorite. Probably one of the first episodes I heard, and I have gone back to listen as homework with my decluttering clients. Absolutely saved my sanity when my dad died and my mom wanted me to clear out his things because she couldn't bear to see them." I would love if you guys went back to redo some of your early episodes with your new views and philosophies. Ryan, what a great idea that is. Sort of like, you know, Hollywood is rebooting all of these old shows now.

• 28:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Maybe we go back and we reboot some of those episodes. Um, let's talk about this, though, Ryan. What, um, what are some of your all time, give me your all time favorite episode of the Minimalist Podcast?

• 28:17Speaker 05

  Man, my all time favorite, I think, is the one with JP Sears, was episode 114 called Spiritual AF. And the reason why I like that is because it was very deep in, um, oh, just going into people's beliefs, how tightly they hold on to them. But man, it was so funny. I mean, he is a comedian, and he just really brought a lot of levity to the podcast, which I feel like we do a good job of that. Anytime that, you know, we record a podcast, but like that specific one, just, I just remember dying laughing the whole time. In another life, I was a comedian, you know, and so anytime there's humor involved with these podcasts, I always like relish in that. And there was so much humor in that episode.

• 29:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love that. It was a live episode too. It was a live podcast we did in Atlanta, I believe. It was on the Lessons Now Tour in 2017. So that was a really long time ago. A large audience there with JPCers. And what's fascinating about that is we talked about some heavy things, but through the lens of humor. And, and that humor, that levity allowed us to not get strangled by the heaviness. And I think that's what's been great about working together for so long, Ryan, is you and I could talk about some really serious things that are heavy and might crush us if we didn't inject some humor that, I don't know, freed us from the restraints of,

• 29:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  of the heaviness. How about you, TK? What's your all time favorite episode?

• 29:47Speaker 03

  Man, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, 498 nonsense with Kapil.

• 29:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, wow.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Okay. Holy moly. Talk to me about that.

• 29:57Speaker 03

  Man, I'm gonna read a Kafka, a Kafka quote. That's a, that's a tongue twister Kafka quote that, that captures how I feel about that episode. "I think we ought to read only the kind of books that wound or stab us. If the book we're reading doesn't wake us up with a blow to the head, what are we reading for? So that it will make us happy, as you write? Good Lord, we would be happy precisely if we had no books. And the kind of books that make us happy are the kind we could write ourselves if we had to. But we need books that affect us like a disaster, that grieve us deeply, like the death of someone we love more than ourselves, like being banished into forest far from everyone. A book must be the axe for the frozen sea within us. That is my belief."

• 30:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hmm.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  Now, look, we can, we can take that lightly and say, you know, we don't have to, we can allow for exceptions to that. But when it comes to podcasts, I like doing things that shake me up. Get me out of my comfort zones, put me in a position where I can feel some true tension and stimulate my curiosity and where I can't control it, it's unpredictable, it's unplanned, and it's, it's wild. I'm out in the philosophical wild. And that episode with Kapil was like that more than anything we've done. And I know that it wasn't everybody's tea, but that to me is precisely the kind of space that I want to be in, where you can't know

• 31:25Speaker 03

  ahead of time if you're gonna like it or not. And sometimes you have to just make that decision, I'm gonna listen past the point of my discomfort, or I'm just gonna throw in the towel right here and say, I can't go any further. But I like things like that that just push me, it challenged me, and I love that.

• 31:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, go back and look at the comments on Patreon. They were especially wild. I haven't checked them on YouTube, but the ones that for the longer episode on Patreon were so fascinating because it was this amazing dichotomy. There were people were saying, you know, I don't like this guy, hate him, Kapil, who hurts you, what's, and then other people were like, oh, my God, I've listened to this episode three times already. And it's only been out for 48 hours. And that's, I feel like we need more of that, where it gets us thinking in a way that of course I don't, I don't agree with this, or maybe I viscerally disagree with some of this, but why am I interested by it? Why is it compelling to me? And I think, I think part of it is that tension. A lot of the things that I enjoy

• 32:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  consuming, whether it's films, or podcasts, or music, these are things that either change my mind, or they solidify my current thoughts, because I feel almost allergic to someone else's point of view. It helps me better understand the way the world works and how I feel about the way the world works. How about you, listeners? What is your all time favorite episode? Let us know your thoughts in the Patreon community chat, which by the way, you can join for free over there on Patreon. Okay, let's get pithy, since we already talked about our favorite episodes. I'm gonna tell you mine here in a moment. But since we already talked about your favorite episodes, what is your all time favorite minimal max?

• 33:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ryan, let's start with you. We, over the years, we've, we've shared thousands and thousands of minimal maxims. Every week, we write seven new ones and we publish them in our email newsletter. And we have minimalmaxims.com that just refreshes and it's an endless stream of accidental wisdom that is there. So, talk to me about your all-time favorite minimal maxim.

• 33:28Speaker 05

  It's so hard to choose favorites, even with the podcast episodes, but I'd have to go with, "A tool is only as useful as its user." And for me, it just reminds me that anytime I want to point the finger at something, or even a person in my life, it's like, "Am I actually approaching this right? Am I showing up and using this tool properly? Am I showing up to a relationship the best that I can?" Because I used to point the finger so much. And this minimal maxim really helps me to take responsibility whenever I can.

• 34:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. Setting down that blame, as you talked about a moment ago with your stepfather, is like, once you forgave him, you were also able to stop blaming him, stop pointing the finger and saying, "This is all your fault." And it doesn't mean that he wasn't responsible for a lot of the pain and suffering, but you don't need to continue to blame him as you move forward. You can graduate even from that blame. Brian, you are definitely, this, this, this makes a lot of sense to me, you're, you're super useful, you know, because you're a tool.

• 34:34Speaker 05

  Thank you. Thank you very much.

• 34:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, I thought you were gonna say, "Love people, use things." And I think for all of us, it's almost like, that is the default one. It's like, a lot of people don't know where that came from. So originally, when I was a kid, my mom had this little sign on the wall. It was from Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen. And it said, "You must remember to love people and use things and not use things, and, or whatever, not love things and use people," right? And it was this little framed, beautiful, little, I don't know, crocheted knitting of this Fulton J. Sheen from 1925, his little pithy maxim that he had. And I never thought much about it as a kid. It was just a thing that was a fixture

• 35:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  in our home, growing up. But then in 2013, Drake had a lyric. It was about, "I wish you would learn to love people and use things." And I was like, Oh, it reminds me of this thing my mom had. And so on our second book, Everything That Remains, we, on the copyright page of all of our books, I put a little nugget there just for people who happen to read the copyright page. And on that page, I'd never written this before. I just wrote, "Love people and use things because the opposite never works." It was right there, hidden on the copyright page. And then someone mentioned it early on when the book came out. And then Ryan and I were on that long 100-city tour. And a few cities in, Ryan, you were like, "I feel like we need a little way to wrap up these events."

• 35:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you recommended that I say that little line that was on that copyright page. And by the end of that tour, it's like everyone, the heads were just nodding and they were saying, "Yes, yes, that is it. That is the core of this message, this whole minimalism thing. It's not about the things. It's about what's beyond the things. And loving people and using things puts it all in perspective."

• 36:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know what's funny? I was gonna say that, that as my minimal maxim, but it's such a, it was such a low-hanging fruit. Like, we have a book titled that. I'm like, I'm gonna go with something else. But I, you know, that is definitely one of my favorites, for sure.

• 36:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, and the whole thing, I think it ties into what you're saying, too. Like about, it's about using things, things that are useful. Love people and use things. And of course, a tool is only as useful as its user. A hammer that just sits in a toolbox and never is used isn't a very useful tool, although it has the potential for use. TK, what is your all-time favorite maxim?

• 37:01Speaker 03

  A pound of experiences is worth more than a pound of stuff. And I take this to mean there is no physical possession we could ever desire, that we desire for any other reason than the internal and external experiences that they help us facilitate or engage. Why do you want money? So that you can spend it on something that gives you a certain kind of feeling or a certain kind of opportunity. Why do you want that new couch? Because you want the experience of lying down on it, sitting down on it. Why do you want the TV? Because you want the experience of watching shows and enjoying good stories. Why do you want that car? You want the experience of driving it. Well, here's a counter example, TK. I just want that thing because it's a trophy. Well, that's an experience too.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  You want the experience of walking past that trophy, looking at it and basking in your success and feeling really good about yourself. You want that experience of someone saying, wow, that's an impressive trophy. What's the story behind that? And then you can sort of get wide-eyed and you can say, well, back in high school, I threw the winning touchdown. And you can have that experience of reliving a memory and connecting with people over it. And so, physical possessions matter, but they matter because they connect us with people. They connect us to moments. They connect us to experiences that give life meaning.

• 38:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I remember when I wrote this one, Ryan, and you and I, I believe, were working on it together. And it was originally a pound of experiences weighs more than a pound of stuff. And I don't know that that's true. In fact, I would say the opposite now, right? A pound of experiences is so much lighter than a pound of stuff. And that's why it is more valuable to me. Like, it's not heavy. I don't have to carry it around, especially if it's one of those experiences that I treasure. Now, there are other experiences that are super heavy. We talked a bit about, you know, childhood trauma and those things. Like, those are experiences and they really weigh us down

• 38:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  if we keep carrying them forward until we actually are able to forgive and let go. All right, let me go into, I've got a pithy answer for you here. My all-time favorite pithy answer is scrolling is the new smoking. And there was a lot that I, again, there's so many to choose from here. And I went to minimalmaxims.com. I just started refreshing, refreshing, refreshing. I'm like, man. Half of these are my favorite, right? But that scrolling one, for me, is a beacon. I always have to remember that, right? There's a difference between scrolling and seeking, or scrolling and searching, being intentional about the thing I'm doing, or letting the technology run my life,

• 39:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  instead of using the technology in a useful way. All right, that is almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to. But first, real quick, for right here, right now, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. Speaking of scrolling is the new smoking, we'll be at TEDx Fargo on July 23rd. And we're actually doing a talk. It's called Scrolling is the New Smoking. We're going to be talking about our time. We spent a year off of social media, and we've spent the last several months practicing every single day, almost, going through this 18-minute talk and really refining it, getting the slides together, the imagery, the back and forth,

• 40:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  talking about the lessons that we learned. Like, leaving social media was only the beginning of the story. And what did we learn from that? And we've talked a little bit about on this podcast, we were able to flesh it out together and write up this beautiful talk, and then present it to the world. Make sure you are on our email newsletter list over at theminimalists.com. We'll send you the video as soon as it comes out, so you can see scrolling is the new smoking, the new TEDx talk from the minimalists. Also, a quick programming note, there is no podcast episode next week, because we will be out of town doing this talk. We'll be back for episode 101. But also, if you're one of our Patreon subscribers, we are still doing our fam's call, our Friday afternoon minimalist Zoom on... When is that?

• 41:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Friday, August 1st. First Friday of every month, we do a Zoom call with our patrons. You can find out the details to that at theminimalists.com/zoom. All right, much more coming up. But I should say, my all-time favorite episode was episode 395. It was called "The Pain of Clinging." And I'll tell you why it was my favorite. You know what we say that you don't remember what people say, you remember how it made you feel. Yeah. And that was the episode with me and Nicodemus and TK Coleman, all three of us in the studio. And it's like, everything was just firing on all cylinders for that episode.

• 41:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I don't even remember exactly what we said during that episode, but I remember walking away and hearing that after the fact. And it was even better when I listened to the playback, which doesn't always happen. Quite often what will happen is like, oh, we crushed it. And you go back and it's like, but this one was like, oh, wow. I actually want to listen to this episode again, even though I was there with TK and Ryan delivering it together. So you can check that out. Also, you can check out all of our favorite episodes. We did a list of 20 of our favorite episodes. If you go to theminimalists.com/classics, you can find all of our top 20 favorite episodes from the last decade.

• 42:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, much more coming up, but first here's a quick insight from one of our listeners.

• 42:36Speaker 06

  Hi, minimalist. This is Blythe, and I have a listener tip to share with you. When it comes to communication, or being honest, or sharing your opinion, a friend of mine once told me that you should ask yourself three questions first before you say anything. One, does it need to be said? Two, does it need to be said right now? And three, does it need to be said by me? This has been great advice for me, if I can remember, to ask myself these questions before I want to share something, whether that's honest or my opinion. It's helped me in the workplace. It's certainly helped me in many social situations. I hope some of your other listeners can find this advice as useful as I have found this throughout my life. Thanks for all you do. Have a great day, minimalist.

• 43:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Blythe, thank you so much for that insightful comment. You know, I call it the art of the pause. Like, it feels like, ah, I don't have to respond right away. This probably doesn't need to be said by me at all, but also, like, if it does, it's okay if I pause. And that's always difficult for me on a podcast like this because of the dead air phenomenon. But even then, it's one thing that I could benefit from improving on is, as we go into the future and through the next 500 episodes, maybe you'll hear a lot more dead air, because maybe it just makes more sense to contemplate for three seconds, the art of the pause. Does this need to be said? And does it need to be said by me? For anyone else who has a listener tip or insight

• 44:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  about this episode, send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, Page 2 and Page 3, and Nicodemus will be joining us. But first, let's take a quick pаниculation break. We'll be right back.

• 44:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that is the first 38% of episode 500. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition with Ryan Nicodemus, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Questions like, what should I do with my 2,000 DVDs that I rarely use? And why am I struggling to let go of the big house that my blended family no longer needs? Help, I'm exhausted by this house. Also, what is Joshua and Ryan's favorite album from the last 15 years? Plus, a million more questions and Simple Living segments over on The Minimalist's Private Podcast on Patreon. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes

• 45:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to the very first episode. That is a full decade of podcast archives. Big thanks to Ryan Nicodemus for joining us on the phone today. Check him out at RyanNicodemus.com for his occasional mentoring messages via email. That is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, post-production Peter, Spire Jeff and Dave, Professor Sean, and Savvy D. on the board, and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this.

• 45:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Love people and use things because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.

• 45:56Speaker 04

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.