496 | Good Talk

The Minimalists talk about communicating with people who are unwilling to change their minds, the qualities of productive conversation, finding ways to be happy without knowing your purpose, a simple approach to getting divorced, the proper way to identify a narcissist, being a minimalist when you enjoy buying new things, and much more. Discussed in this episode: How can I have conversations with people who aren't interested in changing their mind? (2:03) What makes a conversation productive? (16:56) Right Here, Right Now: Our 20 favorite podcast episodes—and our next Sunday Symposium. (35:37) Lister tip: Avoid buying things by saying "hell no" to nonessentials. (36:35) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, hello, everybody. Welcome to the Minimalist Podcast, where we discuss what it means to live a meaningful life with less. My name is Joshua Fields Milburn, and joining me here at Earthing Studios in West Hollywood, California, is my good friend TK Coleman.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  In the building.

• 0:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, this is gonna be a good talk today, because coming up on this free, public, minimal episode, a caller has a question about the best ways to communicate with people who are unwilling to change their mind. And then we've got a question about what makes a conversation productive. That's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment and a listener tip. You can check out the maximal edition of episode 496. That's the full two-hour episode, where we answer three times as many questions on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to our very first episode. That's a full decade of podcast archives.

• 1:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free, because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or comment for our show, we'd love to hear from you. Our phone number is 406-219-7839, or you can email a voice recording to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Andy.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  Hey, minimalists. This is Andy from West Palm, and I'm a Patreon subscriber. I'm curious to hear you discuss how you have conversations when facts don't seem to matter as much as ideals and beliefs.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  Also, why should you continue to communicate? When it seems to be that neither side is interested in the possibility of changing their mind? Thanks very much.

• 2:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, I have so much to say about this. You and I have some of the most amazing conversations, but I think it's because we are both willing to change our minds. It doesn't mean that we change our minds all the time, or that our minds are so open that they just fall out and we're just accepting whatever someone says who's in front of us, right? And yet, the heart of this question here is like, hey, how can I have a good conversation with someone who isn't interested in changing their mind? I think about this Navajo proverb that I wrote down here. It's easiest to ride a horse in the direction it's going.

• 3:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, it's great to have a conversation with someone and they change their mind, or I change my mind, but then trying to convince someone to change their mind is a little bit different. Because if I want to love someone, I don't want to convince them of anything. In fact, I think quite often that to convince someone is to unlove them in some way. So where do we start with Andy's question here? Because you're so great at having conversations, and I enjoy the conversations we have, and you've changed my mind about a lot of things, but I never feel like you go into the conversation explicitly trying to twist my mind to receive your point of view.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there is a paradox of self-interest that's at play when you approach a conversation with curiosity. On one end, you're thinking about yourself and what you can get out of the conversation. This is an opportunity for me to learn, for me to refine my understanding, for me to test my ideas, for me to even, you know, see what my thoughts look like in contrast with another person's reactions, questions, concerns, objections, and so on. And so it may very well be the case that a conversation with someone who refuses to change their mind can be incredibly fun and incredibly valued to me, depending on the attitude I go into it with. I do want to say this.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  I think open-mindedness is relative. I rarely find a person who is completely closed-minded, unwilling to learn, and refuses to be open on everything. I find that people have different topics about which they're more inclined to be open-minded, and other topics about which they're more inclined to be closed. You may talk to some people, and if you're talking about their concept of relationships or love, they may be incredibly open-minded, but then if you shift it to religion or politics, they may shut down and be like, "I don't want to talk about that." And that could be the result of maybe some trauma they experienced, or maybe some negative experiences they've had with other people, some mistrust. This might just be really personal for them. They might be afraid that you're going to try to change them.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  And so I think it's important to be open to the possibility that people may be more open than they seem, and you can sometimes test this out by asking yourself, "Can I shift the conversation to a different topic, to a different theme, or to a different aspect of the same thing, and maybe get a different response?"

• 5:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I often think about a conversation about what is the outcome for this conversation. Sometimes there's an explicit outcome. If I'm talking to a movie studio about buying a documentary that we are working on, I have a specific outcome in mind, and that conversation is geared toward trying to show them the value of what I want to sell to them. However, I think maybe the purest form of conversation is one that doesn't have a specific outcome. I think that's maybe that's why I enjoy our conversations. I never feel like there is an end goal that we're working toward. The conversation itself is the journey, is the dance. It's like an actual dance. When you think about dancing, the point of the dance isn't to have a particular outcome, it is to dance together.

• 6:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I find that one of the purest forms of conversation is the sort of intellectual dance of, "Huh, let me understand your point of view. Let me try to understand where you're coming from." And maybe that changes my mind, or maybe it also solidifies my worldview, solidifies my opinion or belief. But as Andy says here, quite often, we're tied to an ideology, or a dogma, or... A belief that isn't going to change. And if you want to change that, you're going to be spinning your wheels with someone. But if the point of the conversation is to delight yourself and to delight the other person, then maybe, maybe it's a little bit different than trying to simply change their mind.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. When you talked about the pre-programmed, pre-planned conversation where we have this specified outcome, I can tell you, there are some interviews I've watched where you can tell the outcome, you know, is somewhat specific and it kind of works out anyway. Hey, we're sitting down with Don Cheadle because we want to know what he thinks about success. Okay, that seems to work quite well. But I've never seen it work when the specified outcome is, I've got to get this person to convert to my philosophy. That just hardly ever works because that dominates the tone and the energy of the conversation that almost magically creates the opposite of what you're going after. And so I think there's such a thing as succeeding by lowering your expectations.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  If you're talking to someone, maybe you could say, hey, I don't have to get this person to change their mind, but it might be a net good in the universe. If I could make it a goal that everyone I talk to, I challenge them to think about things differently than what they might get from an ordinary conversation. And that can be good enough to just sow a seed of thought or to present a question to them that they're not likely to encounter in their everyday conversations. And maybe you make them a better thinker. That's a really awesome thing. I think another point is that sometimes people don't owe us the openness to change their mind on some things.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Perhaps it is virtuous when it comes to some, some topics that we all demonstrate a willingness to entertain the opposite. But it is also the case that there may be certain matters that truly are subjective, where you have the right to decide what you want just based on what feels good or seems good to you. And you don't owe it to me to give me an explanation, a justification or a change your mind. And you actually have the right to say, no, I know what I want to do. And this is the game plan. This is the strategy. This is, this is the agenda. And you don't owe it to me to be, well, listen to my counter argument. So sometimes people could be reacting to us and an assumption that we're making or an attitude that we're bringing to the conversation.

• 9:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And sometimes when we go into the conversation, there isn't a specific outcome in mind. The outcome that we want is connection with someone else. And a great way to disconnect from someone is to be self-righteous about your own point of view. Here's how you should believe. Here's how you should think. Here's how you should be in the world. Because now I'm holding on to my own self-righteousness. And that disconnects us from the conversation. What does it do? It escalates, it increases arguments, it can make the other person upset. Now you are upset and you continue to escalate there. And so if the point of a conversation is connection, anything that disconnects you from that other person, even though it feels good in the moment, God, it feels so good to be right.

• 9:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There's this old apothecary that you can be in love or you can be right. Choose one. And I think the truth that is behind that is ultimately when I am always going into a conversation with the desire to prove someone else wrong, I'm going to lose that precious connection, the very thing that I wanted out of the conversation.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, one way you can achieve that connection is you can transform another person's stubbornness into an object of curiosity. So if someone just says, "I don't want to talk about that," or "I'm not going to debate that," or "I don't want to hear an opposing view," you can say, "Hey, I honor that. And I'm not going to debate you or offer any counterpoint, say anything that you said, because I want to respect that. But I am curious. Have you always been like that with these conversations? Was there ever a time where you were open to it? Or is this something that you've always been closed to? Well, no, I've learned, man. I've learned the hard way that nobody, you know, nobody really listens. They just want to know what you think so that they can debate you.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that makes sense. I actually agree with that. I think there are a lot of people that are like that, and that frustrates me too. Do you feel like you've ever had any conversations on this topic that have been productive? Or when you look out in the world, maybe in media, do you see anyone who is having these conversations in the right way? And now you're still connecting with this person, you're learning about them, but you're still honoring their desire to not debate you over this difference that they've decided they're not going to change their mind on.

• 11:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And that brings me back to the Navajo proverb that we talked about a moment ago. It's easiest to ride a horse in the direction it is going. There's a direction that someone's going in a conversation, right? And you can meet them where they are, you can see their opinions and viewpoints. You don't necessarily have to batter them with yours. And TK, you do an exceptional job with this. I know that you may have your own personal beliefs about things, but you try not to constantly interject an opinion into every single conversation. Where does that come from for you?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  I don't want to waste my time. And I know that if I inject an opinion, it's highly likely that I will have wasted my time. I think the most important response to anything that anybody says is not, I agree or I disagree, but what do you mean by that? And what does that look like in experience for you? And this happens so much. I mean, someone could say something like, you know, imagine a billionaire says, you know what, guys? Money really doesn't matter. And you could say, oh, I disagree. You know, and it's easy for you to say because you're a billionaire. And look at all the schools that money has paid for. Look at all the people that money has helped. You're wrong, sir. Money doesn't matter. Or we could just be like, what do you mean?

• 12:50Speaker 02

  And it may turn out that perhaps he is using words in an unorthodox manner. Perhaps he is framing in a way that's different from us. But maybe he agrees with everything that I just said about money mattering. And maybe all he means is there are some really important things in life, like love and relationships, that money just can't buy you. And that's all he means. And based on what he means, he's absolutely right. And if he meant something else, then perhaps he'd be wrong. But you see how easy it is to be wrong when we just sort of like impose our understandings and expectations on people. And it's not so much that I'm afraid of being wrong, but I'm afraid of wasting time. And I just have a lot of experience at agreeing and disagreeing

• 13:33Speaker 02

  and being flat out wrong at what the person even meant by what they said.

• 13:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And what's fascinating about that is by being open and curious about it, you can find the profound truth that's going on behind the semantics. Semantics just means the, the meaning of the words, right? And so you could say money doesn't matter. And I could say money does matter. And we might mean the same exact thing, but we have to get to a deeper understanding behind those words. You know how you don't get there? By disconnecting, by arguing, by shunning the other person, by trying to prove them wrong, which gets back to the essence of Andy's question here. If someone isn't interested in changing their mind, can you still have a good conversation with them? Yeah, absolutely. What is your outcome? Do you want to dance with them?

• 14:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Or do you want to change their mind? Now, if they're constantly trying to change your mind and it's just feels like you are wasting your time, it's okay to disconnect from them as well. Not all disconnection is, is bad. And by the way, not every disconnection requires a reconnection. If you feel disconnected from the conversation because something someone said, or they're trying to argue, or they're being self-righteous, or you were being self-righteous and you had to remove yourself from the conversation, you don't have to step back into it. Realizing you're not obligated to prove yourself right. You're not obligated to explain yourself. That is not the heart of a productive. Conversation. Andy, before we go, I'd love to send you a copy of The Minimalist's

• 15:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  third book. It's called Essential. It's 150 essays from the minimalists. It's 12 different chapters. You might even call it the best of the minimalist 12 areas of intentional living, three of which are mindfulness and priorities and relationships. All three of those will help you foster more meaningful conversations with your friends and loved ones without having to be self-righteous or argue your way into their point of view or try to hand them, force-feed them, your point of view. So if you want the ebook or the audiobook or the book-book version of Essential, we'll be happy to send that to you. All right, before we get back to our callers, it is time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week. This is where we attempt

• 15:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to answer questions with a short, shareable, minimal maxim. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every week for free if you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.com. We'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. Now, speaking of ads, TK, on page three last week, we had a whole conversation and you asked me a question about like, is there an ad you'd be willing to do? And you tried to pull it out of me and convince me. No, you weren't trying to convince me at

• 16:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  all. It was a sincere question and we had a great conversation around that. But I changed the question this week. On page three, I want to talk to you about, is there any ad that I would actually be excited about doing? And I think the answer will surprise you. Don't worry, I'm not bringing any ads to the podcast, but I wanted to change the question because I wanted to get a different answer from what we came up with last week. I really enjoyed the conversation we had about that on page three last week, but I think it's going to be a totally different conversation this week on page three. But before that, the question of the week this week is, what makes a conversation productive? What makes a conversation productive?

• 17:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  To our, our pithy answers TK, we'll, we'll get philosophical here in a moment. Let's get practical. Let's see what some of our listeners had to say. Ally said, "A conversation is productive when the people involved find value in it." Now TK, Ally is making a lot of sense to me here. Like if the people involved find value in it, then it certainly seems like it'd be a, a productive conversation to me. But now I'm wondering, is it possible to have a productive conversation if the other party doesn't find value in it?

• 17:38Speaker 02

  It's definitely possible. I agree that a conversation is most productive when both find value in it. But it's possible. I mean, you know, since value is subjective, one person can enjoy it and say, "This was very helpful to me." And the other can walk away feeling like, "Ah, I think I wasted my time." It's possible for either party to feel that. In many cases, when that happens, it's because conversation isn't really occurring. It's more of a monologue, but it is possible in theory.

• 18:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So I'm, I'm wondering here because yeah, it is possible, but maybe also value is in the rearview. Like that conversation did not feel very valuable to me at all in the moment. In fact, I, I just didn't feel like it was productive, but I look in the rearview and like, "Oh wow, I learned so much from that." And in the moment I felt insecure, or I felt off put by what the other person was saying, but maybe I learned something from it. And so maybe that coal eventually turned into a diamond as enough time progressed.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  That's right. And we all can look back on conversations like that where we say, "I didn't like it at the time, but it really benefited me." There's a difference between what's useful and what I value in the moment. You can put a hammer on this table, it's useful, but I don't value it right now, but at some point I might need it.

• 18:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's right. Nevi said, "A productive conversation involves being intentional and listening actively to the person in front of you." "The most frustrating conversations I've had are the ones where nothing I say seems to reach the other person." "My top priority is always to try to understand." And as TK always reminds us, stay curious. Now I agree with, with Nevi here about frustrating conversations. It is so frustrating when it feels like someone isn't listening to me and I'm, I'm just talking. Then it does feel like a monologue, but a monologue to a brick wall, right? So what do you do when the person you're having a conversation with doesn't seem to be listening to you?

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Well, there are a few tests you can do to see if they at least have that capacity and willingness before you give up. Cause I do believe there is a point where perhaps you should give up. I think one thing you could do is you could, you know, if you're asking them about a bunch of things and they just go on monologues and give their opinions and never pass the ball back, so to speak, you can say, well, hold up before we go on, I want to give you my take on that. I want to tell you what I think about that. Now, that's not as fun as being asked because you're having to be a little bit assertive, but you're at least giving this person an opportunity to come to awareness and to realize, oh, yeah, I answered the question, but I didn't share it a little bit. And they might pick up on that cue if you do it two or three times and pause and say, hey, tell me, what do you think? I think there are lots of tests like that.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  That's one of my favorite ones. But hey, look, some people might just be conversation hogs or conversation hoarders. And all they want to do is use you for your set of ears. And if you pick on that, pick up on that after running some tests, it may just be best to find other conversational partners.

• 20:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it might be another person who they just don't have a conversation at all. And now you're the conversational terrorist because you're forcing the conversation onto them. And we've all been in those situations where I don't want to talk right now. I'd rather be by myself, but then someone sort of barrels into the room and they force or thrust a conversation onto you. Do you have a good off ramp for a conversation like that where, where you're just in the moment? Maybe in another circumstance, you'd love to have a conversation with them. But in the moment where you're like, you know what? I'd like to not have this conversation.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Hey, I hate to interrupt, but this isn't the best time for me to have this conversation. I would love to hear what you have to say, but I want to listen when I know I can be present.

• 21:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, yeah, I want to be able to be the best version of myself for this conversation because otherwise I'd be doing you a disservice. Sergio said, "A productive conversation is one where the truth is welcomed without fear." Oh, that's a difficult one. "It's not about winning, fixing, or impressing," says Sergio. "It's about revealing. They create a space for both parties to feel seen, heard, and safe, while exploring who they really are, not just who they've been pretending to be." Now, TK, I, I love this. I agree, a conversation. Feels good when I feel seen and I feel heard and I feel safe. I feel like TK's not trying to win here.

• 21:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He's not trying to fix me and he's also not trying to impress me. In fact, I'm so impressed by TK and he never tries to impress me. Isn't that fascinating? Maybe there's an inverse correlation there, right? But now, of course, after reading this, this comment here from Sergio, I'm thinking to myself, is it possible to actually have a productive conversation? If I don't feel seen or heard, or if I don't feel safe in that conversation?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  It is. Now, what Sergio is describing is the conversational dance. It's a beautiful art form and when you're in the midst of it, enjoy it. And I think everyone should seek it out and I think everyone deserves to have many conversations like that in their life. It's like one of the highest levels of conversation available to us when we hit that groove with someone. And you found someone really special when you can have those types of discussions. Yes, it is possible when you feel unsafe or unheard to have a productive conversation, but you gotta be discerning here in terms of your level of tolerance for how unsafe you can feel. Because technically, we never have 100% safety, right? I'm not 100% safe when I get in my car and drive. There's a certain level of risk I'm taking with my life.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  And so you gotta know your risk tolerance. And I think if you're in a level where of danger, where you feel like, hey, I can't even focus on the conversation or the value, then you gotta get out of it. But sometimes the best insights, the best kinds of growth can come from subjecting yourself to a little bit of discomfort and giving other people some room to disagree with you, to not like what you have to say, to even misunderstand what you have to say and give some pushback. So you have to refine and clarify it. That can be good for the soul too. But I do love that dance Sergio is talking about.

• 23:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And sometimes that pushback does show them that you are listening in a way, especially if it's playful and you do it in a way where you can, you can actually amplify the, the listening. You can amplify the, the feeling safe. It doesn't mean, feeling safe doesn't mean I agree with every word that you're saying, right? That's not even a conversation. That is back to a monologue or that is just a couple of people uniting around a particular ideology. And that might make, make you feel safe, but you're not gonna actually feel listened to at all. You're not gonna feel like you, you're being heard. So you do a good job TK of making people feel heard. Is there anything practically you do that, that makes that possible?

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Well, I hope I can do better at that. I think one thing to do is to ask follow-up questions, or to even, when you understand people or think you understand them, to state it back to them and confirm it. I think there's just a certain measure of beauty in that, a certain measure of validation in that, because it's easy to assume you understand. But when you say it back to a person, I think that really resonates.

• 24:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Tamara said, "My favorite conversations are when you become so completely engaged with each other that you walk away feeling like you've discovered something brand-new. You don't have to totally understand or agree with the other person, but you can walk away appreciating their point of view." I think that's an important point here is, you don't have to fully understand the other person, and you certainly don't have to get the other person to agree with you here. And it actually reminds me of, her response here, her comment here reminds me of a conversation that you and I first had when you were converting to Catholicism.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I remember my own judgments immediately creeped up to the forefront, but my judgments were based on my own worldview. And I had some negativity associated with the church. I grew up in a Catholic church. My mom was, before me, was a nun. And she had some harms done to her by the Catholic Church. And it wasn't the church, it was about one individual in that church. And then, of course, what did I do? I assigned that to anyone else who might be in a position of authority, not to all Catholics per se, but to all the so-called authority figures in the church. And you actually, in a way, forced me to get curious. Not that you tried to get me to get curious, but I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute. Here's someone I love and respect,

• 25:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  and he's doing something that doesn't align with what I think he would do." And so... Instead of trying to judge you, I set out to understand you. The minimalists have this acronym TARA, T-A-R-A. And it's really how to understand someone. And it starts with tolerating. That's the opening into a conversation is I'm going to tolerate that other person's worldview. I don't have to agree with it. I don't have to understand it. Now, of course, tolerance is great, but it's not the end all be all. Tolerance is a great first step toward understanding. But if you just tolerate someone and their behavior, you're actually encourage more of it.

• 26:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And if they start behaving poorly, your tolerance is a sign that they should continue to act that way. But tolerance is a great first step into understanding someone. And then from there, we go to the A R A. So you can get to acceptance, like, okay, I accept that that is your worldview. Doesn't mean I agree with it. Doesn't mean that I'm endorsing it, but I simply accept that. And there's a particular freedom in that acceptance. And then I move on to respecting it. Like, well, yeah, I respect TK. I know I respect him, so I'm going to respect his worldview as well. Still not necessarily agreeing with it, right? But now I'm starting to understand him. What would it take for me to respect your viewpoint here is a thing that I often ask myself.

• 27:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And then finally, we get to this fourth step, and it's way more difficult. But if you ultimately want to understand someone, even if you don't agree with them, you can appreciate their perspective. You can try to appreciate where they're coming from. And I think if we go through that, we tolerate, we accept, we respect, and ultimately we appreciate someone else, that's how we understand them.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. I think one of the goals of good conversation and conversational diversity is we want to gradually minimize our tendency to be shocked by other people's differences or their disagreements. Because your visceral reaction, it could work the same way. Like, I could say, how could he have such a problem with my religious choice? What business is it of his? But that would be a deficit in my character because I'm now shocked by how. How someone could disagree with me or be off put by something that I believe. But it's good for me to not just expose myself to Catholic spirituality, but but but for me to also expose myself to people who disagree.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  I've watched hours of YouTube videos titled, "Why I Left the Catholic Church." It is good for me to know this. It is good for me to be in tune with this. It is bad for me to be the kind of person who is like, "How could you be offended by this? How could you be uncomfortable? How could you possibly be worried about me? How could you possibly be upset at me?" I understand. I get it. And I think that's the goal for all of us, regardless of what it is we believe. Because what happens is, if we only participate in conversations where we feel comfortable and where we're never challenged, we start to lose our imagination's ability to see how someone could disagree without just choosing to be evil.

• 29:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah, and that that spirit of, "How could they possibly misunderstand me?" Or even worse, "How dare you question me?" Right? That, talk about shutting down a conversation, but that also shuts down a relationship to a great extent. You realize that, oh, by me condemning this other person, it's, I'm seeking to misunderstand them. I actually, I don't understand them in a way that I could if I were to simply thoroughly listen, which I can only do that if we're having a, well, a productive conversation. How about you, listeners? What makes a conversation productive for you? Let us know your thoughts in the Patreon community chat, which, by the way, you can join for free, even if you don't subscribe

• 29:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to our private podcasts over there on Patreon. We have a lot of people, thousands of people, interacting in the community chat. We hope to see you over there. Okay, give me something pithy, TK. What makes a conversation productive? What's your pithy answer here?

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Charity produces clarity. Charity is the attribute of being kind, compassionate, gentle towards others, considering them. And clarity is the quality of having a precise understanding of where they come from. Sometimes we think of charity as like, hey, just be a nice person and it's a good moral thing. But actually, there's fewer, there's nothing more self-interested. There's nothing more self-interested than being a charitable person. You get more of everything that you could want out of a conversation with other people when you are charitable, because every time someone speaks, there's something that they do mean and there's something that they don't mean. And you've got to get clear on both of those things. And so when people speak and you extend them the charity of saying, hey, what do you mean? How did you get there?

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Why do you believe that? You create the foundation for a conversation to go so much further. I think one of the most important aspects of charity is when people sound like they're wrong or they sound like they contradict themselves. Instead of jumping on them and saying, ah, let me bury you or nope, you're wrong. Nope, you took a misstep. Gotcha. Instead, you take what appears to be a contradiction. You translate it into a question and you give it back to them and you say, let me tell you how I'm hearing you and I'm going to repeat it. And then you tell me if I got it right or if I got it wrong, you tell me how I got it wrong. And you'll often find that people who sound like they contradict themselves might just mean something different than what you would have meant.

• 31:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, what is the opposite of that then? What's the opposite of showing up and being charitable? What muddies the clarity of the conversation?

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Being overconfident in your ability to understand people just based on immediate impressions and associations. So it shows up in the quickness with which we agree or disagree. Yep, you're totally right. I agree. Nope, that's wrong. That's wrong because it contradicts this or that. Well. More important than if it contradicts this or that is I gotta know what's contradicting this or that. Like, what do you mean by that? People use words, including very common, obvious words, in multiple different ways. What do you mean by that? We have the right to disagree with each other, but we don't have the right to define what the other person means when they say something.

• 32:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think you and I disagree all the time, but I can't think of a single time, maybe there's one, but I can't think of it, where we got into an actual argument about something. Disagreeing, we do so in a playful way that, that often helps us understand, even if it's just helping me understand your position, and it may not help me agree with it anymore, but at least I better understand where we are now, without needing to drag you to my point of view, to my self-righteous point of view, by the way. All right, so I have two pithy answers for you today. First one is, if you deeply desire to misunderstand someone, you will find a thousand ways to misinterpret them.

• 33:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And this is something that I've talked about on the podcast before, but I wanted to expand on it a little bit here, where we had this segment, because quite often, we want to misunderstand someone, as opposed to understand them. And we desire to put them in a particular box. We desire to outcast them. There's a tribalist sort of component to this as well, where I need to unite against someone. I need someone to be the avatar for everything that I disagree with about this particular topic. And so, I will find a thousand ways to misinterpret you, whenever I really desire to misunderstand someone.

• 33:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The second maxim that I wrote down here is, you can't maintain a campfire with an arsonist. So, I thought about this the other day, when my wife was talking about someone, this couple who was arguing, and she's like, it felt like there was like, they were like, just terrorizing each other. And I said, well, I got her to explain what she meant, and one of them, she said, one of them just felt like they were an arsonist, trying to set fire to the conversation. I said, that's it. Interesting. If you have one person who's trying to tend to and maintain a campfire and for warmth and for security and for light, like that is that is intentional, right? And arsonist is unintentional. Remember we had the LA fires here earlier this year?

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There were reports that people were going around and adding to the natural fires by maybe setting their own fires, right?

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so it's really difficult to maintain a sense of order with someone who just wants to burn everything down. And in those situations, when we're in a conversation with someone who wants to burn everything down, who wants to prove you wrong, who wants to make you look stupid, the best thing I can do is remove myself from the presence of that arsonist because frankly, I don't want to get burned.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  I had a buddy respond to someone doing that one time by saying, hey, what do you need from me, man? You need me to be wrong? I can be wrong for you.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  It's the complete energy of it.

• 35:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, I, I, I need you to be wrong without, and like all of a sudden, it's like, oh crap, what do I need? What is my outcome in this conversation? Oh no, my outcome was to prove you wrong. Because my insecurity needed you to be wrong so that I could be right. That's almost the end of page one here. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to TK. But first, real quick for right here, right now, this is our little segment where we talk about one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalists. Since we're now a decade into podcasting, Professor Sean, who's on the couch, he just updated our 20 favorite episodes

• 35:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  of the minimalist podcast. You can explore all of our classic episodes. Yeah, we have a decade of archives at this point. You can explore our top 20 favorite episodes over at theminimalists.com/classics. Check out all of those classic episodes at theminimalists.com/classics. Also, our next Sunday Symposium is this weekend. It's on my birthday. If you want to come out and join me on my birthday here in Los Angeles. Sunday Symposium.com is sold out, but we just released the last 50 tickets. You can find them there at Sunday Symposium.com. We have a beautiful theater right down the street from here. We'll give a talk. We have a sound bath. We have some free coffee. We'll have some conversations together and of course, lots of hugs, birthday hugs even.

• 36:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, here is a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.

• 36:39Speaker 04

  Hi Minimalists, here is Laura, a Patreon subscriber, sending this voice note from Germany. I have a minimalist listener tip that I would like to share with all of you. It's the rule of if something is not a hell yes, then I am not taking it. This really allowed me to say no to a lot of freebies and to move on from those supposed to be dilemmas when purchasing clothes, shoes, or accessories. Thanks to that, I can stroll around stores with a sentiment of lightness. It's like one just starts to spot more museums of things everywhere without the need of buying something. I just love to be part of this community, guys. Sending you much love.

• 37:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Laura, much love back to you. We love that you're part of our community as well. And thank you for that lovely comment. I like that. Avoid buying things by saying hell no to non-essentials, or I would say, saying hell no to junk, right? Some non-essentials add a lot of value to our lives. I'm in the studio right now, there's a coffee table here, and we could get by without it. We'd be fine without it. It's not absolutely essential, but it is value-adding. Professor Sean is keeping his water on there, we keep coffee on there, and sometimes we put a computer there, or a microphone if we have someone here, and that's great. It's non-essential, but it does add value to our lives. But saying hell no to the junk, because if something is not a hell yes, that table is a hell yes, and that's all we have it.

• 38:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But as soon as it ceases to be a hell yes, then it's a no. If it's a eh, maybe. And I think the same thing could be true for conversations. You get to a point where you're like, yes, this is a hell yes conversation. But you might also get to the point where you're like, oh, get me out of this. And you see the red flags piling up, or maybe you just feel the red flags energetically. And that's when it's time to let go. For anyone else who has a listener tip or insight about this episode or any other episode, send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandyglation break. We'll be right back.

• 38:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, that's the first like 37% of episode 496. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition, which includes answers to a bunch more questions like, "Can I be happy if I don't have a purpose?" "What is the minimalist approach to a divorce in which kids are involved?" "What is the proper way to identify a narcissist?" "How do we practice minimalism if we enjoy buying things?" Plus, we have a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalists Private Podcast on Patreon. You can try it out seven days for free, patreon.com/theminimalist. The link is also in the description. And that is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space.

• 39:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, post-production Peter, Spire Jeff, and Spire Dave, Professor Sean on the couch, Savvy D. on the board, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Keep it simple. Good talk.