485 | Small Things

The Minimalists talk about the small things that feel like a big deal to let go of. Discussed in this episode: Do I count my straws, screws, and old paperwork separately when playing the 30-Day Minimalism Game? (2:07) What small things turn into big problems? (18:09) Listener tip: Preserving the memories of loved ones after they're gone. (44:21) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  You're listening to the Minimalist Podcast with Joshua Fields Milburn and TK Coleman. Recorded live at Earthing Studios in sunny California.

• 0:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the sun is back. Thank you, Alabama. Hello, everybody. Today, we're talking about the small things that feel like a big deal to let go of. Coming up on this free public minimal episode, a caller has a question about the best way to count the things he's getting rid of. And then we've got a question about the small things that turn into big problems. That's followed by our right here, right now segment and a listener tip. You can check out the maximal edition of episode 485. That's the full two-hour episode where we answer three times as many questions on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts

• 1:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, your favorite podcast app, or you can listen on the Patreon app as well. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to episode 001. And that is a full decade of podcast archives. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or a comment for our show, we would love to hear from you. Our phone number is 406-219-7839, or you can email a voice recording to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Troy.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  Hi, my name is Troy. I'm from Elgin, Illinois. My question pertains to the 30-day minimalism game. When getting rid of stuff, for example, I have a bag of 31 straws. Would this be one item or would it be 32 items, including the 31 straws in the bag? Or second example is it just in case, package of two screws, two plastic anchors left over from a project, is this one package or five items? And third example is cleaning out a file cabinet, you know, with safe statements for years. Would it be one file?

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Would it be 100 statements or 200 pieces of paper from the statements? Thank you very much. Take care. Bye.

• 3:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now TK on the surface, this can feel like a really silly question, but this is a question that I struggled with when I started letting go of things. And even before I started letting go of things, I started counting some of my things. And I soon realized that that's not what minimalism is about. Minimalism is not about counting your things. It's about owning only the things that count. And so I do have a practical answer here for Troy. I'd like to start with that and then we can get a bit more philosophical because I think it may not be the things that are actually getting in the way of letting go for Troy, especially these, these small things. You know, we're talking about straws and, and screws and old paperwork and all of these small things.

• 3:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm reminded of a former partner of mine, Colleen. Y'all know her from Everything That Remains. My favorite chapter in that book is called Harvest Moon. And it was about how I really messed that relationship up. And the lessons I learned from messing up a relationship. I was there for her when her grandma was passing away and her grandma was Italian. And in Italian, she told her, you know, if you're walking through life, don't sweat the small things. And on a long enough timeline, everything is small. And how beautiful is that to put things into perspective? Sometimes these small things, like even our straws, or paper clips, or staples,

• 4:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  and all of these things you know you want to get rid of, they feel overwhelming. They feel big. And when we stumble across something like the 30-day minimalism game, or whatever tool you use to let go of the excess, you get excited at first, you want to start letting go. So practically, I'll tell Troy, count it as one thing and just get it out of the house. That's at least what I would do. However, if you get to the end of the month and you're struggling to find things to let go of, why not be playful? Why not be more fun and say, you know what? I don't have 32 items I can get rid of today, but I do have these, these paper clips I'm not holding on to anymore. And I guess I could count out 32 of these. And it's day 32 of the minimalism game, because I'm going to keep it going beyond the first month.

• 5:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We have a lot of people who just keep going and going and going. For months, they keep letting go and they get playful with it. So ultimately, my question for Troy is, what's going to help you let go? And is it if you count all 32 staples, or you count 200 pieces of paperwork, does that help you let go more expediently? Do you feel better about the letting go? Or you know what? You just have momentum and you want to start letting go. And you've got a whole box full of paper that you want to shred. Count it as one thing and simply let it go. We often look at these small things and we make a mountain out of a molehill. And when I, when I make a mountain out of a molehill,

• 5:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  it's because that thing that's in front of me feels, well, it's a representation of some bigger thing that's going on. And that's where I want to get philosophical here. Because for Troy, it may not be about the straws, or the screws, or the old paperwork. It's about the story that's going on behind the straws and the screws and, and the paperwork. It's, it's about who am I if I let go of these things? Or what happens on the other side of letting go? What am I making space for? Is the amplification of of spaciousness. And you may not need to make room for new physical things. You're making room for that mental health, for that emotional health,

• 6:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  that well being that exists beyond the clutter that is covered up by the clutter. So when I get philosophical here with you, TK, I want to know almost, maybe we are asking a question like this, or when I ask questions like this, it's because I'm looking for an excuse to not let go.

• 7:00Speaker 04

  Hmm, and that can be the case sometimes. And and sometimes it's just a matter of we want to do it the right way. We really, really care and we don't want to cheat the game or mistakenly think we're following something, then find out from a friend later on. Oh, man, you didn't do it right. And so for me, the question of why always goes hand in hand with how. If I know why I'm doing something, that informs me how I want to go about doing it. If I'm playing a game like this, the reason I would want to do it is because I want to challenge myself to get creative in my ability to let things go. I want to tap into a new dimension within within myself when it comes to saying, hey, maybe I don't need that.

• 7:42Speaker 04

  And so I like to put a stipulation on myself to say, no repeats. Whenever I'm playing games like this, whether it be this or an improvisational game, no repeats. That way I get to experience myself when I'm on the outer limits of creativity. And that's something that I want to see. That's what makes it a process of discovery. If I have 100 paper clips and I say, I'm going to do this for 100 days. And each day I pick a paper clip. Well, I'm cheating myself because I'm not learning anything new. I'm not challenging myself at all. And I think the most important aspect of any game is don't cheat yourself. Yes, don't cheat the game, but also play the game in a way so that you're not cheating yourself. So two questions that I think you can ask to help you with decisions like this is, what does it take to keep the game feasible?

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Because if my standards are too difficult, it's not even going to get off the ground. I can't say like, I will treat everything that's in my garage as one item. And I will treat everything that's in my house as one item. Well, now you only got two days by definition, right? So that's not a feasible way to play. But then the other is what keeps the game beneficial? And so if you say, I've got 30 paper clips, that's my 30 days right there. I've got 30 sheets of paper. That's my 30 days right there. All right. You know, and I know that you're kind of cheating yourself because you don't get to experience how creative you will be when you're pushed to do something that's really difficult. So the balance between what keeps it feasible, what keeps it beneficial, and to get practical, one thing that I would do is I would think about these items and categories of items in terms of how would

• 9:10Speaker 04

  it be packaged up and presented if I were to buy it or sell it. Typically, you don't buy an individual straw for the most part. You buy a package of like 30 straws or 60 straws. Same things when you go to, you know, to Office Depot and you buy paper clips. You might borrow a paper clip from your friend or take one from the office, but you'll buy a package of them, maybe 20, 30, 50, or something like that. And so when you've got things that you might buy or sell as a package, treat it as one item. But all in all, there's no hard and fast way to do it. What keeps it beneficial? What keeps it feasible? What keeps it fun? And what protects you from cheating yourself?

• 9:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's what I love about a game like the minimalism game. For those of you who aren't informed of what the minimalism game is, you can find all the details at theminimalists.com/game. And if you haven't done so already, Troy, download the calendar over there. It is free, and that way you can keep track of the items you're letting go of. For me, when I started simplifying, I asked myself a question. What would happen if I let go of one item each day for 30 days? And it turns out I got rid of way more than 30 items because once you start letting go, I was just so overwhelmed. If the average American household has hundreds of thousands of items in it like mine did, I didn't even know where to start. So it was about starting with one thing. And eventually, we turned this into the minimalism game,

• 10:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  where it begins to give you that momentum. You take that momentum to get rid of more. So on day two, you get rid of two items. Day three, three items. Day 15, it's 15 items. And then you may get to a point where, you know what, I'm on day 30 and I don't have anything else I want to get rid of. Challenge yourself. But if you want to be playful and get rid of 30 paper clips on day 30, the minimalism police aren't going to show up at your door. Because the truth is, there is no right way to count things. If I get rid of a pair of socks, did I get rid of two things? Or did I get rid of one thing? Well, I don't know. I love the way that TK looked at it. You wouldn't buy a sock individually necessarily. But would I, if I got rid of a whole dresser drawer worth of clothes?

• 11:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If I'm really feeling good about letting go, I might just count that as one item today. If it allows me to get that out of here quickly. And so when I'm playing a game, it is the playing part that I want to keep in mind. The reason that we called it the 30 day minimalism game is because for me, decluttering is really boring. I never think about, oh, you know what I, what I want to do this weekend? I really want to clean out my closet. However, I'm always grateful after the fact. It's like going to the gym. You may feel like, oh, I don't really want to go to the gym or Bama. You might want to, yeah, I don't want to go to jujitsu this morning. I'm feeling kind of sore, but afterward you're like, ah, I'm glad I did that. And this happened to me this weekend.

• 11:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I knew we were going to record this episode. So I came up with a new minimalism rule. I call it the two hour rule. Because I didn't want to play the game for a month, but I did have some stuff with spring cleaning. I wanted to clear the closet out. And then there were other areas in the house, in my office and in, uh, well, in the kitchen recently, we did, re-remodeled. And so we got rid of some of the stuff that was in there. And I realized that I wanted to let go, but I didn't want to spend a whole weekend doing it. So I set a timer for two hours. It was Saturday at 3:30 and I had until 5:30 to get rid of whatever I could get rid of. We made three piles, sell, donate, or trash. Nothing ended up in the sell pile this time because I didn't have anything that was worth selling

• 12:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  that I wanted to get rid of. There were a few things that I knew I couldn't, I couldn't actually donate. Like there was a pillow and the donation place nearby does not take pillows. And I also knew that I had a hard deadline because the donation warehouse near where I live closes at 6:00 PM. So I had to finish by 5:30 so I could get everything out of my house. Because what happens if I don't get it out of my house? I can start justifying, ah, you know what? I'll just hold on to. That sure, what if I need this just in case? And that's where these excuses begin to come into play. And so at 3:30, my wife, daughter and I, we all decided we're gonna spend two hours just clean, and we don't like doing it, but we really like the end result.

• 13:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because by 5:30, we have our three piles, or for us, it was only two piles because there was nothing to sell. And the house feels lighter. So even me, as one of the minimalists, you never get there because the things that added value yesteryear do not necessarily add value today. And that's what this exercise is all about. It's about appreciating the things that did add value, recognizing we bring some things into our lives that don't add any value even though we thought they might. And recognizing this doesn't give me any value anymore, so I'm willing to let it go.

• 13:51Speaker 04

  I know Bama will appreciate this, but one of my favorite improv games is when you got a group of people, maybe about five or 10 of us, and you form a circle and you take any randomly selected object. And everyone has to pass it around and each person who receives it has to pantomime an action with that object by presenting it or presenting it as if it's something other than what it actually is. And so, you know, you may have a banana and the first thing you do is you hold it up to your ear and you pretend like it's a telephone by talking on it. Then you pass it to the next person. They hold it up to their mouth and they pretend like it's a microphone by speaking in it. Then you pass it to the third person and they they hold it in their hands and they pretend to struggle to lift it up like it's a weight. And we all have like the first couple of ideas that we're thinking about as it's being passed around.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  But then it gets really difficult like the fourth or fifth time. And it takes a few seconds and sometimes people will sit there and hold it for a minute trying to think of something. And then there are all these aha moments where you see a guy holding it for a good minute. And then he takes the banana and he holds it over his eyes and he pretends to be a character from Star Trek. And people are like, oh, that was good, that was good, that was good, right? And when it comes to games like that, you wanna push yourself so that you actually have to think. When you play a game like this, like the 30 Day Minimalism game, For the first five or six or perhaps seven days, you're just gonna get rid of the stuff that you've been wanting to get rid of anyway. And that's the stuff that inspired you to play the game. Because you just needed a good excuse to get rid of the stuff you know you need to let go of.

• 15:20Speaker 04

  But you wanna play the game for the ninth, 10th, 15th, 28th day, where you're gonna have to look at your stuff and really think, what can I get rid of? And you don't wanna bail yourself out with a paper clip or a sheet of paper, because you're robbing yourself of that aha moment. Because if you sit with it for a while, you're gonna say, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I totally can get rid of that. And that's gonna unlock just really something new and cool in you that you'll really appreciate. I think that's what the game is for.

• 15:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, letting go may not always feel good in the moment. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it's just you know you've been wanting to get rid of this for a while. But it always after the fact, even if I get rid of something that I'm like, oh, I need to replace that now. It's okay, because it gave me permission to let go of thousands of other items that I was holding on to just in case. Troy, a couple additional helpful questions for me is, what's the worst thing that could happen if I got rid of this? Also, what's the best thing that can happen? Because we often ask like, oh, you know, almost jokingly, what's the worst thing that could happen?

• 16:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But what's the best thing that could happen? If my house feels lighter and calmer, does that make me feel lighter and calmer and less stressed? Pre-ear, right? No longer bogged down or weighted down by these excess things that are just taking up space, useful space. Even if it's empty space, it's more useful than if you just use it to store these items. When our homes become mausoleums of dead things, dead things meaning these things no longer serve a purpose in my life, well, then we don't have a home anymore. The home has us. And when you come home, it doesn't feel like, ah, this is calm. It feels like, ah.

• 17:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There are some things I know I want to deal with, but I'm not going to deal with them now. I'll just wait until tomorrow. Troy, check out the 30 Day Minimalism Game Calendar. You can download that for free over at theminimalists.com/game, and you can read all the instructions on how to play the 30 Day Minimalism Game yourself. Before we get back to our callers from Alabama, what time is it?

• 17:31Speaker 01

  You know what time it is. It's time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week.

• 17:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, indeed. Now, during the lightning round, we attempt to answer your question with a short, shareable, minimal maxim. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free if you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists@gmail. We'll never send you spam, or junk, or ads, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. What's the question of the week this week?

• 18:10Speaker 01

  What small things are a big deal to let go of?

• 18:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What small things are a big deal to let go of? Or maybe the other way we can think about this is what small things become problems, right? Because something's small, and we can literally sweep it under the rug, but also figuratively sweep it under the rug. Before we get to our pithy answers, TK, I want to hear from some of our simpletons. From Alabama, what did our listeners have to say?

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Alexandra said, "It's hard to let go of the things that I bought for my fantasy self. For example, lipstick or nail polish, something that my real self is too lazy to use, but my fantasy self makes me buy it. Must be some sort of identity clutter or clinging to a fantasy self."

• 18:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Ah, the fantasy self. This is such a fascinating concept, right? So TK, if Alexandra was one of your clutter counseling clients, what would you tell her about identity clutter?

• 19:03Speaker 04

  Let's work together and see if we can give your fantasy self a makeover. I don't have a problem with you having a fantasy self. The challenge here is you speak of this fantasy self as someone that is making you do things that you don't want to do. And that sounds to me like an enemy. That sounds to me like a shadow that's haunting you from behind. And so I say, let's bring the fantasy self out into the light. Let's talk about this fantasy self. What does she want for you? What are her dreams? What's she all about? Because maybe by bringing the fantasy self into the light, we can step into that right now and give ourselves permission to not otherize it, where we experience it as an opponent, but to bring it forth and internalize it and start living some of that now.

• 19:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Is there something about the fantasy self? It's interesting because it's almost like the fantasy self is an external self quite often. It's the adornments. The fantasy self owns this particular coat or this watch. For me, it was watches back in my corporate days. And I really want this expensive watch, and so I'll go finance it. And I'll spend thousands of dollars and plus all the interest. And this is who I am. But it was never about what was going on inside me. It was just this sort of surface level self, the surface values, which there's nothing wrong with surface values. But I'd never excavated enough to get down to the essence of what that fantasy self was.

• 20:28Speaker 04

  That's right. And like with most valuable things in life, it typically does start at the superficial level. And we learn to add nuance and substance as we move forward. And so the fantasy self is often just the me that I aspire to be, but I lack the confidence or the knowledge or the sense of permission that I can do it. And we often see this in our idols and in our heroes. We really look up to this person and we often look up to them because they embody, they express aspects of my own self that I would like to step into a little bit more. And so I would love to just sort of take a look at that and unpack that and see if we can find a way to give ourselves some more permission to step into our aspirations. How can we make that more feasible so that it's no longer a fantasy self, but it's me living out my potential?

• 21:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We, Savvy D, Jordan and I went over to the mall a few weeks ago. We just put this video up on the minimalist Instagram account about the perfect closet. And we filmed it mostly in Macy's and a few other stores. And it was really about how the perfect closet does exist, but it's not on the other side of your next purchase. And so for some of the B-roll, I was going around and putting on these nice jackets and coats. And I had a former girlfriend reach out to me. She's like, "That coat looks so good on you." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's kind of not the point of the video." The video was sort of about this fantasy self, right? There's nothing wrong with owning that coat necessarily. There could be problems with owning the coat. Like if I can't afford it, and maybe I'm struggling to pay my rent or my electricity

• 21:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  bill, and I go buy the coat instead, well, that is a problem. Another problem is thinking that coat is an investment. Of course, it's not an investment. It's a liability. But there's nothing wrong with owning, because it's not an asset. It depreciates almost 100%. If you look at insurance actuary tables, a coat, most garments in general depreciate almost 100% within three years and 50% within the first year. So when you think about that, the thing you're buying, any asset that loses 100% of its value in three years is not an asset at all, right? And so we tell ourselves these fantasy stories about the things that we adorn our body with. If I just own this jacket, this coat, I will be this kind of person.

• 22:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Nothing wrong with owning a coat, especially a coat that looks nice and putting your best foot forward. But that coat doesn't change who I am. If anything, maybe it magnifies, or not even magnifies, maybe it enhances or amplifies who I am. But if I show up empty, then no amount of clothes are going to complete me.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, by the way, a little inspiration from mask work, which if anybody's done any theater has done before, where you put on a mask and you sort of play around with sort of what attributes does this bring forth? What things does this make me more comfortable saying or doing than I otherwise would feel? I think everyone would benefit from going into a clothing store that they would typically Look at as that's not me and and go put on an outfit and go look in the mirror wearing something that's totally not you and just look at yourself for a little bit. Why is that not you? What is it about the definition you have for yourself that says that's not you? Because if you walked out of the store with that on and some stranger saw you and they didn't have any preconceived notions about who you should be, they would say that's you. They wouldn't say, oh, TK, that doesn't fit you. They don't know who I am.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  They just see me as the guy with that hat backwards or the guy with those saggy jeans that I never wear like that. And sometimes trying on different things and stepping outside of our comfort zones. Yeah, they may reinforce our sense of personal identity, but they also may help us realize that it's a lot more fluid than we think. And they may give us permission to look at ourselves in new ways or just consider new possibilities.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Yes, there's so much power in playing dress up to to reveal what these things say to you. Because when I look at this, I see so much of myself in this. When I see these little things like lipstick or nail polish, those are tiny signals that say I have my life together. I'm a woman that is put together, my finances are in order, my calendar is straight. And and again, I'm seeing so much of myself in Alexandra here. But there's a point where you go, OK, am I playing dress up? Or is it really just that I want these things? And it feels like I have to have those things in order to play that role. That kind of stuff can really reveal a lot to you if you get curious about, hey, why is it that I do? I I do feel better when I have lipstick on, but but I actually don't enjoy wearing makeup or I don't.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  I don't want to put the time in together for that. Like, what am I really wanting out of this small thing? That I can get for a couple bucks that maybe will feel like I'm there, but is really just getting in the way of getting where I want to be?

• 25:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love what you're saying there because when lipstick or makeup or clothing or the coat is a proxy for, look at me, I've got my stuff together, right? Like, you clearly, I am financially well off because I have the trophies of financial success. But that is not necessarily an indicator. I I think back to my corporate days, I had six figures worth of debt. And yet, I looked on the surface like I had my stuff together, right? Like, oh, yeah, this is who I am. And so those things aren't necessarily a proxy. If we're trying to signal that I have financial well-being by buying things, it may actually hurt my financial well-being.

• 25:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And that fantasy self can then get in the way and create that identity clutter that Alexandra's talking about. What else we got?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Janey said, "We recently took away our 16-year-old son's phone as a consequence. You would think such a small thing ruled his whole life. But thankfully, after three days, he was able to tell us that the only thing he misses is listening to music on the bus ride to school." He said he's glad for the break from the rest of it and is realizing how much time he was wasting.

• 26:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, what a realization. You know, I realized this when we walked away from social media last year. And it was, oh, yeah, I was not necessarily wasting time, but it wasn't the best use of my time. And so therefore, maybe it was wasted in a way, even though if it didn't feel like, in a vacuum, it didn't feel like, if I had infinite time, obviously, it wouldn't be a waste of time. But I don't have that. TK, I'm curious, though. Why do we waste so much time on the unimportant things?

• 26:43Speaker 04

  I think the answer is in the same direction as why do we suffer from addictions? Or why are addictions possible? Because what's important and what's pleasant are two different things. Sometimes what's important isn't pleasant in the moment, or it just isn't pleasant at all. And sometimes what's really, really, really pleasant, what gives you those dopamine hits, are not important in the sense that they comport with the values that you have for how you want to live your life and what you want to represent in the world. And so, we need moments like this where some space is created between us and the habits that we have of looking to things for pleasure in order to realize, oh, there's so much more to my life and what I want my life to be than the easy titillation that I get from picking up my phone, or eating candy,

• 27:28Speaker 04

  or doing any of those types of things.

• 27:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think sometimes we just don't realize it because we get so stuck in that pattern. Have you ever driven home? And you realize that you actually didn't want to go home at the time, but you're just so used to that pattern. You started driving down the wrong street or you went onto the wrong highway. This happened to me once. I was driving to a meeting back in my corporate days at one of my retail stores. And before I knew it, I was at home and I'm like, wait, why am I at home? I'm pulling into the driveway and I knew I wanted to be somewhere else. It's just that muscle memory kicked in and it because I wasn't being intentional. I wasn't being thoughtful. I was wasting my time driving home, even though I didn't want to go home in that moment. What else we got?

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Elaine said, I struggle to let go of old keys that don't fit anything anymore. I know it sounds crazy, but we must have a hundred keys dating back to my great grandparents.

• 28:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wow, you know, it's fascinating because those keys, they feel like, oh, if I get rid of this, what if I need it, then I won't have access to the thing. But it's the ultimate representation here. Like all of our things feel like keys to happiness. All of our things feel like keys to success. Our things feel like keys to well being or to stress relief or to calm. And then those keys stop working and yet we keep holding on to those, those keys. And I think back to the spontaneous combustion rule and it's perfect for Elaine here. You know, if, if you lost those keys right now, how would you feel? Would you panic or would you feel some relief? And if the answer is the latter, you would feel relief. You just, ah, yeah.

• 29:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Then it probably makes sense to, to let those go. Of course, you can download the free minimalist rulebook over at theminimists.com/ rulebook. It's 16 rules for living with less. Let's do a couple more. This one's from Jessica.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Books were really difficult for me to let go of. However, after passing them on, I've read more than ever. Now I only borrow books from the library and was gifted one book that I'm currently rereading.

• 29:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Rereading now TK, you, you have a, a, you really enjoy books, right? But I never get the feeling that you struggle with letting go of them. Do you have any insights for Jessica?

• 29:47Speaker 04

  I completely removed the guilt self judgment factor from my relationship with books entirely. I'm not doing anything with books that's based on any sense of duty to anyone or any kind of standards. Do I enjoy it? Do I want it? Do I have a room for it? Those are the only questions that matter. If it's if it's yes for all three, I'm not listening to anybody. I enjoy it. I have room for it. I want it. I can afford it. Okay, it's it's a yes, I'm taking the book. But if one of those is off, then that's just me accepting reality. I don't enjoy it. There's no reason to bring it into my home. I can't afford it. Doesn't matter how much I want it. It just can't make its way into my home. I have I don't have room for it. I can afford it. I enjoy it. I really, really want it. But reality says I can't have it right now.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  And so I just allow reality to make the decisions for me. I accept what reality says and I keep the guilt and self judgment out of the way. That's the part that complicates things.

• 30:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, let's hear from one more person.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yulia said, I have a hard time letting go of old concert tickets. I know I can just take a picture, but it feels so good to hold them in my hands and remember the good old days.

• 30:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know, another question I ask around a topic like this, especially with like like sentimental items, because that's what this is, you've assigned sentiment to it is if I'm going to keep these, what's the best use of them? Because you might have those concert tickets and they're just in a file cabinet. What do you pull them out? Once a year, if that? And maybe it's been several years and you haven't pulled them out. But they're at least there and you tell yourself, well, at least I have them. But you're not doing anything with them. You could actually get more joy. And so instead of me telling you, ah, just get rid of those concert tickets. How else could you use them? Could you frame them? Could you make a scrapbook? Could you make a collage? Could they be part of a piece of artwork? Could you scan them and make some sort of digital art with them?

• 31:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Or at least have access to them? Because let's face it, if your house goes up in a fire, like the Alzadina fires here a few months ago, now you've lost those concert tickets that you are at least claiming to get some sort of value from. But if you scan them and you have them backed up, then you have the ability to access them even if something happens. To those tickets or something happens to your home.

• 31:59Speaker 04

  And the funny thing about this and the observation with the keys is that these are the types of things that are that museums are filled with. And we walk through museums and we look at stuff like this and we really value it because the story that we tell ourselves about it or the story that is told about it. If someone says, I have this key, okay, that's I don't care about that. Well, this was the key that was used by, ah, tell me the answer, right? It's the story that brings us in. And so if one person's junk is another person's treasure, then that means you have the ability to alchemize junk into treasure by either sharing it with someone that will appreciate it or using it to make some kind of art that other people will commemorate, celebrate or appreciate in some kind of way.

• 32:43Speaker 04

  And so I think it's a beautiful question. We all have the permission to make art and usually the ingredients of which our art is made are pretty much unnecessary things that could be thrown in the garbage and they become valuable by the way we bring them together for display.

• 32:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you're talking about clutter being contextual here, right? Because I go to the museum and I see the keys or I I see the tickets or I see pieces of paper and documents and I can really appreciate that in a museum because of the story that's behind it. But also I recognize, imagine if I took those things from the museum home and then just put them in my basement.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  All right.

• 33:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's going to feel like a burden to me. I'm not going to feel like I've got this piece of history that I'm holding on to. I'm going to feel like I'm hiding that piece of history in a way. And that was never the point of the museum. The museum was to display these things, to share that history with people who might get value from it. So how might you or others get value from those concert tickets or any other sentimental item that you're holding on to?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Can I tell a quick story?

• 33:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Absolutely.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  It's one of the coolest things I've ever seen with somebody who had a lot of concert tickets and got a lot of value with them, but wanted to share that with other people was one of my high school teachers. Shout out to Mr. Chesser, you're amazing. The last day of school, what he would do is put out concert tickets from a band that he absolutely thoroughly enjoyed. Saw all over the world and he put those concert tickets on our desks and it sparked so many neat conversations about like, oh, you're in Copenhagen here, you're in Ireland here, like, what was it like there? What was this like? Da, da, da. Did you get bored seeing the same songs over and over again on this whole tour? And he was just so excited to get to share those kind of memories with us. I think there's so much room to be creative.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  If you don't feel like you're artistically inclined, you don't have to make a whole collage and stuff, but there's ways to be able to share those good old days with other people that you shared them with back in that moment, or even be able to ranch out to other people and use it as a way to connect with them.

• 34:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, when our things are a bridge to connection with other people, that's like one of the best use of our things. It's, it's a great thing to have things that connect us with others. The thing alone will connect us, right? It's the story we're telling about those tickets or the discussion that it opens up, or yeah, tell me about that time that you were in Oslo for that concert. Oh, you wouldn't believe the food poisoning I got or whatever. Even, even the bad memories become joyous when they are in the rearview because we get to talk about the lessons that we learned or the struggles we went through. And that's what people love to hear, too. It's not all about the good times, the happy, happy joy, joy of yesteryear. It's also about, wow, I didn't know you went through that.

• 35:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Tell me more. How about you, listeners? What small things are a big deal to let go of? Let us know your thoughts in the Patreon community chat, which by the way, you can join for free, even if you don't subscribe to the minimalist's private podcasts over there on Patreon, the community chats, you can interact with thousands of other simpletons. Okay, give me something pithy, TK. What small things are a big deal to let go of?

• 35:57Speaker 04

  What's left undone, undoes you.

• 36:01Speaker 04

  We can never count or measure all of the major, major changes that would or could take place in our lives if we simply value the little things enough to do them. And sometimes we get glimpses of this. For instance, identify out loud some small little area of your life that you want to change. Oh, I want to get a haircut. I think I could use a few pounds. Your friends will immediately tell you that you're just fine. You're okay. You don't need to change that. But guess what? If you go and change it, those people will enthusiastically celebrate the change. Oh, my gosh, you look amazing. Hey, man, I love those shoes. Wow, you really know how to clean up. So what's going on there? When you talk about what you want to change before you change it, people say you're fine,

• 36:46Speaker 04

  and they affirm you as you are, because nobody can really imagine how big of a difference it's gonna make. But then you go change it, and it's a world of a difference, and everybody responds differently. And so if you have those little things you need to do. I had a lawyer that I met yesterday who told me this. He says that the principles that have contributed to the most success in my life is this: do what you need to do when you need to do it. If you're just faithful to those two things, you'll go so far in life. But so many times, we don't do that, because what we need to do is really small. And when we need to do it, isn't gonna take a whole lot of time. And we think, well, that can't be valuable. Maybe I'll spend my time on something more dramatic. But what is left undone? The little things. It undoes you.

• 37:31Speaker 04

  But when you do the little things, they create really, really big changes.

• 37:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think sometimes with those small things, I often make them into the mountain, out of the molehill. And I tell myself a story that it's going to take two hours to do that thing, or it's gonna take a whole day. And then before I know it, maybe it's like a phone call that I needed to make. And the phone call ends up being four minutes, and it wasn't nearly as painful as it was in my mind, which brings me to my pithy answer here.

• 37:58Speaker 04

  By the way, not our phone call. I feel like we talk once every four months, and it's four hours when we talk.

• 38:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK and I were on the phone yesterday talking about some of the wildest things. We played this game where we try to give the most charitable explanation to something that is just like prima facie awful. Like, and you look at it and you're like, this thing is terrible. And we're like, okay, let's try to better understand this by giving it the most. We're not saying we believe this necessarily, but if, if there was a charitable explanation behind this, and my God, it's such a great way to understand someone better, even if I still disagree with them, it's a much better way to approach it, to understand someone instead of simply dismissing them because they said something or did something that

• 38:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I don't like. And that brings me to my, my pithy answer here. Letting go of a thing requires letting go of the story behind the thing. This happened to me this past weekend when I was doing the two hour rule and we were clearing everything out. I started trying on a few different shirts I hadn't worn in the last 90 days, the seasonality rule, 90 90 rule, but then, but I will wear it. It's like, let's be honest here. Let's take the story away from this thing for a moment and just look at it as an item. Would I buy this thing right now? If it, if, if I were to lose it, would I replace it? And if the answer is, yeah, I would replace this thing, then okay, then why would I want to let go of it?

• 39:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But the truth is with most of those things that I'm holding on to because of the story, if I set down the story, I know I wouldn't replace it. I'd simply let it go and then I'd free up the space, whether it's for new things, new experiences, or just for more space in general. Before we get out of this segment, Bama, we wrote down last week when you and I were talking about this episode, we talked about woo way. I call it the art of not forcing. And, and we wrote this here. Do you remember why we wrote this down in the notes?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  I don't, I really don't, because I had never heard of it before. I just know it had something to do with with making these, all these small things work and fit in things. In our life and in everything that was, that's going on, there's something about it that that you found really inspiring and connected with that, but for the life of me, I don't remember what it was.

• 40:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, I kind of attach this to what I call the art of noticing, and then there's Wu Wei, the art of not forcing. Is the way that I would look at it, and it's this Chinese concept of, if you look at, it's a Dallas concept, really. But if you, if you look at it, it's just that, that life unfolds naturally. And sometimes the things that added value, especially those small things that we're holding on to, we try to force it into our lives. And it maybe had a place before, but you've moved several times and, and now that furniture doesn't fit where it used to fit in your old apartment. Or maybe I'm holding on to the shirt that I wore to that wedding, three or four, 10 years ago.

• 41:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Or maybe I'm holding on to the wedding dress and I'm forcing it into my life today. And it's no wonder that it feels off is because when it worked for you, there was no forcing. It felt effortless, right? And so a intentional life also, it looks effortless and often feels effortless because it doesn't require a whole lot of effort when you're not forcing these things into your life. And clinging is a type of forcing. It's dragging the things from the past into the present when they don't belong to be here in front of us.

• 41:49Speaker 04

  By the way, not forcing goes hand in hand with letting go. Because anytime we try to force something, it's because there's a reality staring us in the face that we're afraid to let go of. If I keep trying to force you to be my friend, I keep trying to force you to go to the movies with me. What am I not letting go of? The fact that you've already made it clear that you don't want to do this. What else do I need to let go of? Me thinking that I'm not going to be okay if I just go to the movie or the restaurant by myself. Me thinking that people are going to make fun of me if I'm, if I'm out alone and I don't have a wingman or a friend with me. Okay, that's what I need to let go. And my refusal to let go of that, my clinging to that requires me to compensate by forcing things.

• 42:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. That's almost the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to, but first, real quick for right here, right now, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. Our minimalist home tours are back on Patreon for Audio Plus subscribers. We just released Home Tour 101, which included 20 photos of my own home after a recent black and white kitchen remodel. I really disliked that kitchen for a long time. Now, whenever someone came over, Malabam, what did they say?

• 42:58Speaker 01

  It was so beautiful.

• 43:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It was so freaking blue.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, I wanted your kitchen. It looks nice now. Like, it looks like it is a complete home and it is just beautifully an aesthetic for you and your family. But, man, do I love that pop of color.

• 43:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I thought it was great for an Airbnb.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get it.

• 43:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's what it felt. Every time someone came over, they're like, "Oh, your blue kitchen. I love this." And I'm like, I kind of felt that way the first time. When we bought the house, it was, they had redone the kitchen. And so, we didn't do like a full teardown. We just painted the cabinets and that's a lot of effort. And we redid the backsplash, the tile there, and did a little more white subway tile. And we did black cabinets. And I thought it was really gonna close off the space and make it feel tiny. Not at all.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 43:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It was just right for us. And the blue was not right for us. And other people came over and they're like, "Oh, I really like it." So, there's some before and after photos there. The minimalist home tours over on Patreon. And then, this week, we're sharing a home tour number 102 in our series. We're calling this one Clean Collaboration. It's patron Sandra's decluttered workspace that still maintains its personality and functionality. You can leave a comment on Patreon. Let us know what you think. And while you're there, you could check out all 102 minimalist home tours from our series. Malabam, what else you got for us?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Here's a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.

• 44:25Speaker 05

  Hey, minimalist. My name is Kristin. I'm from Austin, Texas, and I'm a Patreon subscriber. I've found so much value in this podcast, so thank you for how you changed my life. This is in response to a caller question from episode 461 about preserving the memory of her late husband. My grandmother was very special to me, and when she passed away 20 years ago, my family and I made blankets out of the clothing she wore. She had some pretty amazing statement pieces with pops of color and patterns that were so mammal, which is what we called her. There are so many stories I associate with the different pieces on the blanket, and it brings me so much joy.

• 45:07Speaker 05

  It's like a big hug for mammal every time I'm wrapped in it, and it's comforting and warm and a functional and beautiful way to preserve her memory. I still cherish this blanket 20 years later, and I'll pass it on to my daughter someday. I hope this helps, and thank you all again, minimalists, for sharing this gift with the world. We love you all.

• 45:27Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, Kristin, thank you so much for the lovely and thoughtful comment. I love this idea of preserving the memories and honoring our loved ones after they're gone with their sentimental items, not just putting them in a drawer or a cabinet or what I was gonna do with my mom's stuff, put it in a storage locker. Let me talk about a mausoleum of things. Whenever you go to a storage locker and you see someone there and like it's just a garage full of stuff, but it's not even in their garage, you know their garage is also overflowing with stuff, and that's not a judgment, it's me seeing myself in that person. It's so easy to hold on to these things because of the stories that we hold on to.

• 46:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So Kristin, thank you so much for that lovely comment. For anyone else who has a listener tip or insight about this episode or any other episode, you can send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, page two and page three, but first, let's take a quick panticulation break. We'll be right back.

• 46:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, that's the first 29% of episode 485. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Questions like, "What's the kindest way to tell my partner that he's holding on to too much clutter?" "If something adds value to my life, but it produces negative feelings, should I keep it, or should I get rid of it?" And "How can I talk to my young child about minimizing their things without forcing them to declutter?" Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. And that is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space. On behalf

• 47:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Mal Alabama, Post Production Peter, Spire Jeff, Inspire Dave, Savvy D is back and on the boards over there, and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields-Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, even the small things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  We'll see you next time.

• 47:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Peace.