478 | Closet Clutter

For the second episode in their five-part Household Clutter series, The Minimalists are joined by Courtney Carver to talk about decluttering the excess clothes, shoes, and accessories in our closets. Discussed in this episode: I'm great at decluttering, but why can't I stop buying new clothes? (2:28) Why do you own so many clothes? (15:27) Listener tip: How to achieve variety and novelty with clothing. (41:51) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  You're listening to the Minimalist Podcast with Joshua Fields Milburn and TK Coleman, recorded live at Earthing Studios in sunny California.

• 0:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the sun is back out. We had a few days of rain and how beautiful that was, how needed that was. Thank you, Alabama. Hello, everybody. Today, for the second episode in our five-part Household Clutter series, we're talking about one of our most requested topics: Closet Clutter. Joining us in the studio to help organize your closet is our good friend Courtney Carver. Courtney is the founder of Be More with Less and Project 333. She is also the author of the new book called Gentle. Coming up on this free public minimal episode, a caller has a question about why she keeps buying all of these new clothes, even though she's great at decluttering.

• 1:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And we've got a lightning round question about why everyone owns so many clothes. And that's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment and a listener tip. You can check out the maximal edition of episode 487. That's the full two-hour episode where we answer three times as many questions on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our archives, all the way back to episode 001. That is a full decade of podcast archives. By the way, big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast. One hundred percent advertisement free because sing along at home, y'all.

• 2:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or comment for our show, give us a call. Our phone number is four zero six two one nine seven eight three nine, or you can email a voice recording right from your phone to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Nicolette.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  Hi, this is Nicolette from South Africa. I hope you can understand my accent. I've written down my questions so that I don't stutter in English, which is my second language. So I have a problem with clothes. I cannot stop buying clothes, but surprisingly, I have a very, very minimalist closet. Like, for example, I've got two sets of exercise clothes, three sets of pajamas, five pairs of shoes, pants. I just have a black and a brown one, about five dresses, three warm jerseys. See, here is the thing. I'm great at decluttering, but I cannot stop buying.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  Sometimes I will have a new piece of clothing only for a week or two, and then I will declutter it. I'm always getting rid of clothes, but I'm always buying new ones. It's not a brand or fashion thing at all. I wear what is comfortable. I have no idea what's fashionable, and I have no brand names. I don't understand what lies behind this compulsive buying and discarding of clothes. It has been like this for the last twenty years at least. I also don't watch TV, so I'm not exposed to advertisements, or like you guys saying, American advertisements.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  I keep thinking, if I can just buy these next three items, then I will have the perfect closet. But I keep buying new clothes, always discarding something in its place. I just can't stop buying. And just some more background info that might help you in answering this. I also don't have a very big budget. I can't afford what I'm doing. But I also don't have any debt at all and no credit cards. Thank you for listening, from your biggest fan in South Africa.

• 4:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, what a great question to start with Courtney, because Nicolette struggles with something that a lot of us struggle with. Even she admits, "I'm great at decluttering. Oh, I'm so good at decluttering, but I just keep buying more clothes. I can't stop buying." And I think there's a sign here that said, "I'm just trying to buy the perfect closet full of clothes." She's trying to find the perfect closet by adding, but it seems to me that the perfect closet might be found by subtracting.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, this could have been my story. I, except I didn't do the decluttering part. So I just collected and collected, and I always thought that next piece would complete me or complete my closet. And this is, it sounds like the perfect time for her to try something like Project 333, because she's asking the right questions. She wants to know what's underneath this. And the best way to find out is to give yourself a break from shopping, at least three months, a complete shopping ban of all clothes, and see what comes up for you. See what that discomfort is all about, because it is a little different for everyone.

• 5:46Speaker 04

  But I think when you're ready to break that cycle of buy, declutter, buy, declutter, especially where you say it's really impacting you financially, give it a try and see what comes up for you, because it sounds like you're right on the cusp of a lot of answers.

• 6:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When you talk about Project 333, just for those who are uninformed, I have a couple of things. One is, whenever we do tours, I can always tell who's doing Project 333, because they are the best dressed people at our tour stops. And so Project 333 is you take three months, and it's just 33 items, correct?

• 6:20Speaker 04

  It's 33 items, clothing, jewelry, accessories, and shoes. And you don't have to give away everything else, just hide it, get it out of sight for those three months, so you can sample what it's like to dress with less and to kind of give up that... That need for something new because at least for me, I was always thinking that this new thing would make me a little bit better, or a little happier, or appear to be more successful. And that never happened, actually. And so when I stopped buying clothes for three months, I thought it would just last for those three months. And here we

• 7:00Speaker 04

  are, what, 15 years later, and I'm still like 33 items or less every three months.

• 7:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, I'd love to talk about the psychology behind this, because quite often it's about getting more in order to become perfect or complete. In fact, the Latin root of of perfect just means complete. It doesn't mean flawless. We often use complete to mean, or we use perfect to mean flawless now. But what she's saying is, I want a complete closet. But to complete your closet, it may not have anything to do with getting more. It's about understanding the psychology behind that, behind consumerism, which is an ideology that these externalities will complete you in some way. And so then, of course, you go out and you buy more things, and she can't even afford it. The most affordable item, however, is the item that you leave on the shelf. The most affordable item is

• 7:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  the item you already have in your closet. And it may be covered up by a whole lot of closet clutter that's getting in the way of those clothes you might actually enjoy. Talk to me a bit about the the psychology behind this disease of more.

• 8:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, this could be an opportunity to reframe completion as participation in a life giving process, as opposed to the realization of some kind of idealized state. There's nothing wrong with seeking completion, or seeking what we might use the word perfection to label. But when we look at it as some sort of destination we can arrive at, we tend to end up as that proverbial, you know, chasing after the dangling piece of candy or whatever it may be that we never actually reach. But who was it? I believe it was Carl Jung, who said something to the effect that it's not meaning that we seek, it's that experience of being alive, that adventure of being alive. And something that I suspect

• 8:45Speaker 05

  could be going on here, I love to talk with Nicolette a little bit more, is that maybe buying clothes is near or at the top of the most exciting things going on in her life. Because what we heard was things like, I don't have TV, which I applaud. I don't have any debt, which I applaud. But there's a lot of virtuous I don't have, I don't do going on. But the other side of that virtue, though, is what am I doing that makes me come alive? And one of the things that we're understanding about addiction is that it's not just about physiological dependence, right? It's about having something that I don't want to do. I don't like the consequences of it, but I can't make myself stop doing it.

• 9:27Speaker 05

  And one of the things we have to do when we're dealing with that is kick that addiction off the pedestal by saying, I'm going to create a life where this isn't the most exciting thing that I have going on. Because if I'm sitting at home, four o'clock in the afternoon, and I got nothing to do, well, I may not want to drink. I may not want to smoke. I may not want to eat that junk food. But what else do I have going on? And junk food is pretty exciting. Alcohol is pretty exciting. And if I don't have anything to rival that, then I'm probably going to do it. So if buying clothes is the most exciting thing you have going on, or it's the most reliable way of introducing some much-needed variety and aliveness into your life, it's going to be incredibly difficult to stop that.

• 10:08Speaker 05

  So I would step back and I would ask myself, what am I living for? What is my behavior, this compulsive behavior, telling me about my legitimate needs? And don't despise that. That's a good thing. I need some variety. I need some novelty. And how can I set up my life in such a way that I'm pursuing that novelty in a way that is life-giving without requiring me to buy anything?

• 10:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, Courtney, one of the things, the common objections to Project 333, or any sort of capsule wardrobe challenge, is that it might lack that variety. But I found the opposite to be true. It's not that you don't dress with variety, it's just that you have boundaries around that variety.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  Right. And what's so interesting, what TK was just saying, I was thinking about that before you even started talking, was that when she removes the shopping for a few months, she may find that there are other things that she's more interested in, and then she'll have more resources for whatever that thing is. But it might take a minute of... Being quiet. And now I forgot the question.

• 11:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The question has to do with variety. When we're paring down our clothes and setting up some boundaries, which may be perceived to be radical boundaries, like having only 33 pieces of clothes, but when she has five dresses and several pairs of pajamas and then exercise clothes, and she has all of these different things, it feels like variety, but it also feels overwhelming.

• 11:36Speaker 04

  Right. I think that lack of variety that people are concerned with actually turns into more creativity, either within or outside of the wardrobe. I see a lot of people getting really creative when they have limits, when they have boundaries around what's in their closet. And on the flip side, I see people like me, who really didn't care about fashion or clothes that much, being able to free themselves of that pressure to find the perfect thing, or what looks great on them, or whatever it is to focus their energies on things they actually care about, they're actually interested in.

• 12:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And the irony of that is you're one of the most fashionable people I know.

• 12:21Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 12:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because you have these boundaries set up. And so you always look great because having fewer clothes means you own only the things that you really enjoy. You know, we were doing these, we've been doing these new videos, me and Savvy D and Jordan No More, we're going out into retail stores and sneaking in and filming some videos. And one that I did recently, I was in a Levi's store and the jeans right up front were on the sale rack and it said 50% off. And I look at the camera and I said, oh, they're 50% off. I'd be dumb not to buy them. And I paused, I said, well, wait, they're 100% off if I just leave them on the shelf. Because I don't need another pair of jeans. There's nothing wrong with

• 13:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  jeans. There's nothing wrong with getting them on sale either. But when a sale propels me into that impulse, that moment of, I must buy these, there's this moment of scarcity, well, then I've already lost. I've lost to the marketers, I've lost to the advertisers, I've lost to the corporations. Or to the retailers, when I could step back and say, well, wait a minute, do I need another pair of jeans? Or the jeans that I have just fine? In fact, maybe I have too many pairs of pants. Maybe I have too many dresses or exercise clothes or pajamas. And maybe the perfect closet isn't out there in the retail stores. It's already in my existing closet. And it comes by setting up some of those boundaries like Project 333. Nicolette, I'd love to give you a copy of TK's book, Emotional Clutter,

• 13:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  because I think there's a particular kind of clutter underneath this clutter. There's this emotional experience of buying and wanting more. And I think you'll get a lot of value from Emotional Clutter. You can download it for free over on the Minimalist website. Just click the resources page there at the top. We have a bunch of free resources over there, like the 30 Day Minimalism Game or the 16 Rules for Living with Less: Minimalist Rulebook. But my favorite right now is Emotional Clutter. And also, I'd love to offer you a clutter counseling session with TK Coleman. If you're interested, we'll reach out to you and we'll set that up. But if anyone else who wants a clutter counseling session to deal with their home clutter, their physical clutter, their emotional clutter, their mental clutter, their spiritual clutter, their career clutter, head on over to theminimalists.com,

• 14:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  click Counseling at the top. All right, Bama, before we get back to our callers, and boy, do we have a lot of amazing callers. But before we get back to them, what time is it?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  You know what time it is. It's time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week.

• 14:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, indeed. Now, Courtney, you might remember that during the lightning round, we each attempt to answer the question with a short, shareable, minimal maxim. You don't have to worry about that. TK and I have our maxims already pre-prepared. And folks can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free. If you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.e-mail, we'll never send you spam or junk or ads, advertisements. I like that.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Advertisements.

• 15:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We'll never send you advertisements, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. Bama, what is the question of the week this week?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Why do you own so many clothes?

• 15:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hey, why are you judging me like that?

• 15:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We were actually in the studio last week brainstorming. What is the question of the week going to be next week? We, we put this out to our patrons in the Patreon community chat, which folks, by the way, you can join the Patreon community chat for free, even if you don't subscribe to the private podcast. And we were just thinking, and we had all of these different questions, like what causes the clutter in your closet? And we, and it was real, just, I don't know, it was complex. And then I just thought about what would I ask my 28 year old self? And it'd be a simple question, why you own so many clothes? And there's, there's something behind that question. So we'll, we'll get to our pithy answers here in a moment, but I want to hear from our simpletons first. Malibu, what did some of our listeners have to say?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Siobhan said, I tend to fill my closet with a lot of just in case outfits to places I will probably decide later not to attend.

• 16:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, Courtney, talk to me about this. So we, we often get outfits, clothing, accessories for these special occasions.

• 16:35Speaker 04

  Don't forget shoes.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, the shoes.

• 16:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So what's going on behind that? We, we get the special occasion wardrobe.

• 16:42Speaker 04

  Yes, well, coming from someone who used to shop for every event and emotion, I can speak to this. We want to be a version of ourselves that will be received in a way that we want to be received, but we forget that nobody really cares what we're wearing anyway. And they don't remember it's, I've put this to the test. They don't know, you can wear the same thing to every event and nobody will notice.

• 17:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, you're making me think of Nicodemus. I was just talking to him yesterday and I've gone to weddings with him before or other formal events and he still shows up in his black jeans and a black T-shirt and no one says anything to him about it. And it's because people don't think about us nearly as much as we think they are thinking about us. And they certainly aren't thinking about our outfits, the way that we think they're going to think about them.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  And if they are, they're not connecting it to our. Or self-worth, or who we think we are. They just might think, oh, I like that. I want that.

• 17:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right. And I think we do that with with cars quite often. And I think that will translate to clothes as well, where it's like, I see TK driving up in a Lamborghini. I'm not like, I want to be more like TK Coleman. I want to be in, I want to own the Lamborghini as well. And the same thing could be said about the clothes. I want to own the Lamborghini of clothes, whether that's the the Prada, or the Gucci, or the whatever the the whatever's in vogue at the moment, right? I want to own that. I'm not impressed by the person. I just like the physical good that they're draped in.

• 18:22Speaker 05

  Sometimes, by the way, we project a little bit because you can grow up in an environment where people make fun of you for having the wrong pair of shoes, or you can suffer some humiliating experiences where it's like, what does that dude have on? And other kids laugh at you, and you can carry that with you for the rest of your life. And you say, I'm never gonna fail at that again. I'm never gonna be laughed at for what I wear again. And then you find yourself locked in this pattern of always trying to keep up to avoid those kinds of experiences.

• 18:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I'm thinking about hip hop artist E40. He said a lot of a lot of guys who buy an $80,000 car before they own a house. And I think the same is true with our clothes quite often. There are a lot of us who will buy a $1,000 pair of ballmain jeans, but ride the bus. And because we can't afford the car, not because, not that riding the bus is good or bad, but I'd rather own a car, but like, I can't afford the car because these jeans are so freaking expensive. And then it then it leads into, uh oh, maybe I can't pay my grocery bill because these jeans are so expensive. Maybe I'm punishing my future self and going into debt so I could buy these things that aren't going to actually complete me. In fact, if anything, they incomplete me in a way.

• 19:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Tim had a comment for us.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Tim said, "I have a lot in my closet because family members always bought me clothes for my birthday and Christmas. I took in 10 shirts for every one I minimized for a solid decade."

• 19:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, there's something interesting here. TK, maybe you could talk to me about the internal locus of control versus external. The first commenter, Siobhan, she took full responsibility for her own closet clutter. And what I see Tim doing here is he's beginning to take responsibility because he's writing in and he's taking ownership of the situation. But it's easy for us to blame our clutter problems on external factors, and especially the people in our lives. "I would have such a clutter-free life if it wasn't for my husband, or daughter, or kids, or mom, or all of these people that keep giving me stuff." What's going on behind that?

• 20:24Speaker 05

  Now, by the way, I think it's important to affirm that that can be true, right? Cause and effect is a reality. It actually is true in many cases that you would have an easier life if you didn't have this or that person to think about or take care of. It can actually be true that I would have more sleep if I didn't have these kids, right? That might be true. But the thing to remember is, I can observe that cause and effect relationship and say, "That's real. If I lived a life other than the one I now have, these things would be easier, but that life is no longer accessible to me. So, given the constraints that now characterize my life, what is the way to make the best of this? I do have the children. I do have people that depend on me. I do have these responsibilities

• 21:09Speaker 05

  that I value and that I'm committed to. And so, what can I do now to make the most of this?" And that's when you start to set those boundaries with people and say, "Hey, I love you so much, and I know when you give me these things, you're only giving it to me because it's your way of expressing your consideration of me. But I gotta tell you, this causes me so much stress and anxiety. I really can't take this in, and I'm letting you know, because when you give me something, I don't want you to get upset with me later on because I gave it away to someone else. So, if it's important to you that this goes to someone who cares, I encourage you to do that with them."

• 21:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Courtney, a lot of people have the best of intentions. I think about when I first stumbled across Be More With Less way back in 2009. I started simplifying my closet, my wardrobe, and embracing minimalism. I had 70 ties, 70 neckties. Now...

• 21:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Even if I wore a different one every day, and I did work seven days a week, but even if I wore a different tie every day, I couldn't wear all of my ties in two months. And so I just pared down and said, you know what? I'm just gonna have five of these. Five ties is plenty. What are my five favorite ties? And so I took the other 65 and I gave them to Ryan Nicodemus.

• 22:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He was super happy to take these. Like, wow, these are really nice Brooks Brothers ties. These are expensive. And he's like, but there's 65 of them. And I'm like, yeah, do you want to? He's like, and he said yes, because, well, he felt compelled to take them. He didn't want to displease me, but also he saw that there might be some value in these. And it's much easier to say yes. Of course, he could have said no. No is a complete sentence. Or he could have said, yes, I'll take three of them. Yes, I'll take five of them. That would be wonderful. I don't want all of them. So it's not about simply renouncing. There's something here where you can say yes, but you don't have to say yes to everything.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm trying to picture Ryan in a tie right now.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  I'm picturing him wearing all of the ties on his head, on his wrist, everything. Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 04

  Any.

• 23:11Speaker 04

  I mean, for starters, I think that as adults, we have to stop giving other adults clothes. Like, the end. Let's just stop. What are we doing? Like, we're the ones complaining about people giving us clothes and then we buy clothes for other people. We just have to put it together. We don't, no one wants you to do that at all. Nobody.

• 23:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think that's spot on because we're doing it because we think gift giving is a love language. And longtime listeners know that I think gift giving is a love language, the same way Pig Latin is a romance language. Like, it's not an actual love language, but there is a love language behind that. And it's the love language of contribution. I want to add value to your life in some meaningful way. And sometimes we think that consumer purchases are a shortcut to adding value to someone's life. It is true that there are some people who actually need clothes, but most of us have a tremendous access. Of clothes. I saw a stat a few years ago. It's in our last book, Love People Use Things, that the average American throws out, I think it's 81 pounds of clothes every year.

• 24:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It may even be more than that, when 95% of them could be donated or recycled. And so we're just throwing out these things that are still useful, even though they're not useful to us. Let's do another one, Bama.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  This one comes from Jeanette. I have cut down a lot in my closet and continue to when I switch my clothes as the seasons change. Out go the clothes that don't fit or haven't been worn. But since I live in Wisconsin, I have layers of clothes for the winter, so that ups the number some.

• 24:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, Courtney, it definitely makes sense to have different clothes for different seasons, obviously, especially when you live in a place like Wisconsin, or you live in Salt Lake City, or when I lived in Ohio or Montana, having different clothes for different seasons makes sense. But when does seasonality become an excuse to overindulge in shopping?

• 25:04Speaker 04

  All the time. Yeah, I think it's just being realistic about your situation. I live in Salt Lake City. It can be very cold. It can be very hot. But when am I actually in those elements? Like, I'm not spending the whole day outside. So I don't need all of these extra clothes for the different seasons. I mean, I need a hat and gloves in the winter. I don't need that in the summer. And there might be some climates where you might need a few more things to stay warm, and by all means, do that. But again, just think about not just what the weather is, but how you spend time in that weather.

• 25:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I think it also depends on the activities that you're doing there. If you're in Salt Lake City and you are skiing every other day, you need different clothes than if you're just going from your car to the grocery store, to the gym, or whatever else. It depends on how you are being in the world when those weather events happen. Let's do another one from Amy.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  My closet was full because I had acquired nice clothes in an effort to fill a void that I thought I had. Now I dress comfortably and I have a lot more free time and money.

• 26:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Filling the void, there's that bit of insecurity there, right? What role does insecurity play in our overconsumption of clothes?

• 26:26Speaker 04

  Also, all of it seems to be the answer of the day. We, again, like we were talking about earlier, we think people are going to see us in a certain way, depending on what we wear. We have this underlying feeling from time to time, or maybe a lot, that we need something else to make us feel a certain way. We want to feel happier. We want to feel more successful. We want to feel loved. And in some way, we think we're going to get there by easily purchasing something new. And we've all been let down and reminded that doesn't work. And then we try it again and again for about, I don't know, three decades, four decades.

• 27:11Speaker 04

  And then we get the memo, like, this doesn't work.

• 27:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, the definition of insanity, right? Trying the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. It's like, well, you know what? Those blue jeans didn't make me happier, but this pair has a slightly different rip in it, or a slightly different cut, a slightly different taper. That is the one that is finally going to make me happy. TK, when you're talking to your clutter counseling clients about insecurity, because there's a lot of insecurity behind a lot of our yearning, our striving, and the suffering that is involved with that, talk to me a bit about insecurity and the role that it plays in our overconsumption.

• 27:49Speaker 05

  We often talk about insecurity in terms of its social manifestation, insecurity as a preoccupation with what other people think of us. But you can also think of insecurity as not being grounded in an awareness of what makes us valuable, what makes our lives matter, independently of what other people say about us, and independently of how many things that we own. And so I like to drive the conversation around security inward. I'm not going to say, hey, don't care about what other people think of you, because some measure of that is fine, but let's talk about you. Who are you? And what makes your life matter? What makes your life have worth? And what's interesting is although that question can sound intimidatingly philosophical,

• 28:32Speaker 05

  most people have answers that go deeper than what other people think of them. No one ever says my value is determined by what other people think of me. And when you put it out there and you state it explicitly, people look at that statement and they say, I either don't think like that, or I act like I think like that, but I certainly don't want to act like that. And so just remembering, coming to attention and remembering what makes us matter. Because you talked about how we waste money on jeans and we waste money on shoes. And that's not what we're actually buying. We're not buying the jeans. We're not buying the shoes. We're buying a means to an end. We're buying a perception. We're buying a brand. We're buying an image. Because we think that's going to make us matter, because we've forgotten who we are. Let's do another one.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  This one's from Frank. I used to hold on to so many identities and the clothes were my validation. But this led to so many unused shoes, random socks, sportswear, jewelry, hats, suits, ties, outdoor gear, gag shirts, band merch, and the list goes on. Now that it's all gone, I love never having to think about what to wear.

• 29:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 29:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, gag shirts. I'm thinking back to Nicodemus and I were in St. Petersburg, Florida, when my mom was going through her chemo and radiation. We were down there for a week or so. And we were at a coffee shop down there called Kawa Coffee. I know C. Savvy D. shaking his head over there. He's from the St. Pete area. And we were over at Kawa Coffee, which was really close to where my mom lived at the time. And when Nicodemus got down there, he, his luggage was a little light and he couldn't figure out why. He forgot to pack t-shirts. He just, this is-

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Minor detail. It's fine.

• 30:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's a total Nicodemus move, right? He overpacked everything, except he didn't bring any t-shirts. So he went to like the gag shop in St. Pete and like he just bought all of these ridiculous, you know, there's one that had like two arrows pointing to his arms that said, uh, tickets to the gun show or whatever.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 30:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. And then there was one with a camel on it and it just said, "Wanna hump?" And so I have a picture of him. Asleep on the couch at Kawa Coffee, just wearing a green t-shirt with a camel on it that says, "Wanna hump." And it's great as a memory, but like, it's not a great t-shirt.

• 30:42Speaker 04

  Was he wearing one of your ties as well?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  That's the trap we fall into when we are, as adults, buying other adults' clothes. It's usually you see something like, "Oh yeah, my friend loves coffee. Here's this punny coffee shirt." Or, "Oh, my mom loves birds. Like, here's a picture of a bird on a shirt." That's the trap that we fall into, because we think that would make a great gift.

• 31:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. Yeah, and band merch is another interesting thing, because it can commemorate a moment that you had. Like, it's like buying a piece of art sometimes. I was just at a thrift shop this weekend. We had our Sunday Symposium up in Santa Barbara. And across the street from the venue, there's like this old thrift shop, and went in there. And there were like, old band merch shirts from the 70s and 80s and 90s. Some of these shirts were $600. And one of them was like $250, and it was just on a Hanes t-shirt, but it was an actual shirt from the tour. So you're buying something. I understand that. But Courtney, I want to talk a bit about identity. Our identities are often shaped by the costumes we wear.

• 31:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it doesn't mean like a Halloween costume necessarily, but we try to project an image onto the world. This is who I am as a person. But how does a sort of false identity lead to purchasing excess clothes?

• 31:57Speaker 04

  Well, I think a great example of this would be when I used to buy shoes that I couldn't really walk in very far, because they just hurt my feet so much. And so I would drive around in flip flops, and then throw on a pair of heels before I walked into a meeting to be like, "I am powerful. You should buy something from me."

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 32:17Speaker 04

  And then I would just be in tears. By the time I got in the car, my feet were bleeding.

• 32:23Speaker 04

  It just goes back to that same thing of trying to say, this is who I am. Like, look at me. Look at what I'm wearing. This is who I am.

• 32:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 32:32Speaker 04

  And I think at some point, at least for me, I just got to the point where I was like, maybe don't look at me.

• 32:42Speaker 04

  I'm just gonna wear what I want and what feels good, and let's take it from there, so.

• 32:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about identity clutter, TK, because I think that's in a lot of our things, but especially in our clothes, because that's the one thing that we take out of our house and have with us throughout the day. So it's one of the things that follows us around.

• 33:01Speaker 05

  And I don't want to despise that, because I think what Courtney says is right on point here. I want to wear what makes me feel good, because when you feel good about what you have on, you do act more confidently, right? And so there's something to the power shoes that's legitimate, but at the same time, we don't want to do it at our own expense. We don't want to hurt ourselves. It's the same thing with an addiction. There's a real pleasure there. There's a real benefit there. But at what expense? What's the healthiest way to go about it? But yeah, we get caught up in these definition games and in these label games. And we often feel like we don't measure up unless we check on what everyone else is doing first. We receive our cues from them, and then we dress what we think is the safe way to dress.

• 33:44Speaker 05

  What is the way to dress that's gonna make me not noticed in a negative way? And I kind of can blend in with the cool people? And I guess one of the weaknesses of that approach is that you're always in reaction mode when you live that way. And it's really hard to be creative when you're taking your cues from the world in reaction mode. Creators are people who innovate. They take risks. They take chances doing things that don't require other people to give them permission, which is why all the trendsetters in fashion are people who do absolutely ridiculous things with clothes before anyone else thinks it's cool. And then everyone else hypnotizes themselves into thinking that it's cool, because someone did it with confidence. And I think you want to live your life on that leading edge of creativity with everything

• 34:29Speaker 05

  that you do, not just clothes.

• 34:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and if you want to be creative with clothes, there are great examples of that. There are people who, you look at them at first, like, that's crazy what they're wearing. And then six months later, everyone is wearing it. I think back to the early 1990s, crisscross. You remember, jump, jump.

• 34:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  They were discovered in a mall by Jermaine Dupri in, I think, somewhere in greater Atlanta. And he saw them and he's like, these, just these two boys who were like 11 years old and they're dressed really strange. They're wearing their jeans backward and they are wearing their shirts, like these like Atlanta Braves jerseys backwards, right? And he sees them and he could just see they're kind of running the mall at age 11. Like there are girls walking up to them like they're celebrities and they were on the cutting edge of being super creative with their word. They weren't following anyone. And he went up to them and said, what do you guys do? And they kind of looked at him like, what do you mean? What do we do? We're 11. We hang out at the mall and, and like, we're just fly, right?

• 35:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Like that was their thing. And, and you know what? He's like, I think you would make great music. And they're like, we're not musicians. He's like, well, we'll figure that out. And they did figure it out. And, you know, they had several big hit songs, but they also, for a year or two, changed culture because they were on that bleeding edge where they were super creative. They were taking risks. And guess what? A lot of people who saw them wearing the backwards jerseys or the backwards jeans were like, that's so stupid. What a, what a fad or what a trend. And of course it was a fad or a trend, but I can't say that was stupid. It was, it was hyper creative. In fact, it led to a more creative career. They were willing to take a chance, not because they were assuming someone else's false identity. They were creating their own. Let's do one more.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  This one comes from Paige. I got rid of about half my clothes because I hate folding laundry and now hang up all my shirts instead. It changed my life.

• 36:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Courtney, folding versus hanging. Thoughts?

• 36:28Speaker 04

  I don't care. I really don't care. Uh, my, the only questions I've asked about that for myself is when I travel, like, should I roll it or fold it? And also, it doesn't matter. I don't care.

• 36:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. Yeah. I prefer folding personally, but like, it's whatever works best for you. What is your preference, right? And it's not, then it's not, um, I guess, just entertaining someone else's idea of what you should do with your things. You can fold it. You, what works best for you? Because as Paige said, It changed my life. And if hanging up your clothes changed your life, who am I to say, no, you should be folding those and putting them in the drawer?

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you go, girl.

• 37:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  How about you, listeners? Why do you own so many clothes? Let us know your thoughts in the Patreon community chat. Okay, give me something pithy, TK. Why do you own so many clothes?

• 37:18Speaker 05

  Fewer clothes, fewer choices, more clarity, more calm. I don't own too many clothes because I like to keep the area of my life simple. So I see minimalism as the strategic leveraging of simplicity. It's about recognizing that as a finite person, you have a limited amount of time. You can't be equally available to all the possibilities of life. So you look at the few number of things that matter the most to you, and you ask yourself, how can I introduce an abundance of space, time, and energy into those areas? And there you benefit from simplicity. It's like you always ask, how might like, how might your life be more with less, right? It's why I don't argue with people on social media anymore. Not because I think it's intrinsically bad, but because I'd rather be on the phone with someone from my family.

• 38:01Speaker 05

  That's what minimalism is all about. So I simplify in that area so I can have an abundance in another area. And I see clothes as a means to an end. What's the goal of the day? To engage the people that I love, to do the work that I love, to soak in the experience of life? I don't want to be spending too much of that time thinking about what I'm going to wear. But I do know some people for whom picking out the outfit is the most important part of their day. And for them, I say more, more power to you. But for me, I want to simplify that.

• 38:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Bama, you remember that we had the director and one of the stars of the documentary Fake Famous in here, Chris?

• 38:36Speaker 01

  That was such a cool episode to listen to.

• 38:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He was amazing. I really enjoyed Chris because he goes into like thrift shops, and he finds like these old shirts, and then he, he like remixes the shirt and then sells them in a way. So he'll add paint to it, or he'll change the cut of it. He'll, he'll alter it in a way that makes it really interesting. And he, he came in here looking really well dressed. He was wearing like an old, like Lakers shirt. And it was kind of like a crop top almost. And like, it was something I could never pull off or wouldn't want to try. To pull off, right? But for him, it was like, oh, that's perfect. And there's, there's something special about someone who does treat clothes like art.

• 39:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And then the rest of us, we get to make a decision. We get to say, okay, is this going to run my life? It's not about renouncing the clothes. TK didn't say no clothes. He said fewer clothes, fewer choices. He said no clothes, he'd be, you know, propagating nude beach propaganda. That's not what we're talking about here. You're talking about owning less. Well, here's my pithy answer. Minimalism is not about counting your things. It's about having only the things that count. And I think what's ironic here is we talk about like something like project 333. The number itself you even talk about is arbitrary. And if it was project 444 or whatever it is, what boundary works well for you?

• 39:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think about all of our rules and the minimalist rulebook, which you can download for free over at theminimalists.com. There's 16 rules in there, but they're not really rules. They're tools or they're boundaries and they're adjustable. If the 90 90 rule doesn't work for you because it's, it is too extreme, then maybe it's the 180 180 rule. It's 180 days for the season, or maybe it's not strict enough for you. Maybe you're like, you know what? I want to get really aggressive and I want to turn it into the 35 day rule. If I haven't worn it in the last 35 days, I'm, I'm getting rid of it. We talked about seasonality a moment ago and the 90 90 rule, we also call it the seasonality rule. It's one of those things that sets me up to better understand how useful are the things that I'm supposed to be using?

• 40:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If I go into my closet and I pick out a shirt and I ask myself, have I worn this in the last 90 days? And the answer is no, but it's because it's a summer shirt and summer isn't here yet, but summer's within the next 90 days. Okay. Am I going to wear it in the next 90 days? And if the honest answer is yes, then I don't want to get rid of it. I don't want to deprive myself. But if I'm being honest with myself, usually the answer is no. If I haven't worn the last 90 days, I'm probably not going to wear it in the next 90 days. And then I can give myself permission to let go. All right, that's the end of page one. We still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to, but first, real quick for right here, right now. Here's one thing that's going on in the life of The Minimalist, our new video series.

• 41:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's called Fragments. It is now streaming on YouTube. You can binge watch the first four episodes at youtube.com/theminimalist and you can subscribe over there if you want to watch future episodes. The fifth episode, which is called "The Museum of Things", that is my favorite episode, TK's, that comes out next week, but you can catch up right now, youtube.com/theminimalist. You can watch all six episodes of Fragments. Malabam, what else you got for us?

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Here's a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Hi, Josh, TK, Malabam, and everyone behind The Minimalist Podcast. This is Carolini, calling from Australia, and I'm a patron subscriber. I'm sending a message to comment about this need for novelty with my clothes and accessories. What I do is like I donate my clothes to op shops. I do not sell them because it's just the time to put stuff online and get people to be interested and try to bargain prices that are already low. I just don't have the patience and the time. So I donate my clothes to op shops, but I also buy in op shops. So most of my clothes now come from op shop. And because I pay such

• 42:39Speaker 00

  a low price, that when I get sick of it, let's say, I'll donate. And if I want to get something to replace, I must buy from an op shop as well. And that way, I don't have that sense of I'm like I'm wasting, or I'm wasting my money, or I'm donating something. All the clothes that I donate, they're new, they're in great condition. But I also was very fortunate that I found beautiful clothes in op shops. So I think, and also because in op shops, they tend to employ people from diverse abilities, I found it's such a beautiful community connection to have. And it helps with that, with that need

• 43:22Speaker 00

  for novelty and without feeling guilty, you know?

• 43:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Carolini, thank you so much for that thoughtful comment. You know, it makes me think about how new clothes doesn't necessarily mean better clothes, right? You could buy some new clothes that are brand new, right off the rack, and maybe they're even expensive new clothes, but they may not fit you. You may not feel good in those clothes. And quite often, buying clothes used, gently used, is the better way to proceed, both for you and for your wallet. For anyone else who has a listener tip or insight about this episode, you can send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, we have page two and page three, but first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 44:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, that is the first 33.3%. You see what I did there, Malabama?

• 44:12Speaker 04

  333, baby!

• 44:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, indeed. That is the first 33.3% of episode 478. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition with Courtney Carver, which includes answers to a bunch more amazing questions. Questions like, "How do I apply minimalism to the clothes I'm required to wear for work?" "How can I curate an ethical wardrobe that isn't full of plastic and toxic chemicals?" "How do you find your own personal style?" "Why is fast fashion a problem?" "And what happened when JFM lost his phone in Virginia last week?" Oh, boy. Plus, we've got a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. Big thanks to our guest today, Courtney Carver.

• 44:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Her new book is called Gentle. We'll also put a link to that in the show notes, as well as Be More With Less and Project 333. And that is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Malabama, post-production Peter, Spire Jeff, Inspire Dave, Savvy D. on the board, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things, because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  We'll see you next time.

• 45:33Speaker 05

  Next time. Peace.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.