473 | Spartanism

The Minimalists talk about the opposite of hoarding. Discussed in this episode: What happens when you take downsizing too far? (2:05) How do you stop yourself from minimizing excessively? (24:05) The Minimalists' birthday + we were featured on Jeopardy! (36:17) Listener tip: One of the most helpful minimalist tools. (41:35) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast Recorded at Earthing Studios http://earthing.com/simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  You're listening to the Minimalist Podcast with Joshua Fields Milburn and TK Coleman, recorded live at Earthing Studios in sunny California.

• 0:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, thank you, Alabama. Hello, everybody. Today on the show, we're talking about the opposite of hoarding. It's something called Spartanism. Coming up on this free, public minimal episode, a caller has a question about what happens when you take downsizing too far? And then we've got a lightning round question about how you can stop yourself from minimizing excessively. That's followed by our Right Here, Right Now segment and a listener tip. You can check out the maximal edition of episode 473. That's the full two-hour episode where we answer three times as many questions and we dive deep into several simple living segments. That private podcast is out right now on Patreon. You can find the link in the description.

• 1:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When you subscribe, you'll receive a personal, private feed so that our weekly maximal episodes play in your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our podcast archives. That's nearly 10 years of archives. Big thanks to our patrons, by the way. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement-free because, sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question or comment for our show, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a call. Our phone number is 406-219-7839, or you can email a voice recording to [email protected]. Our first question today is from Derek.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  Greetings. This is Derek in Arizona, and I am a Patreon subscriber. I thank you all for what you do. I found the minimalist three or four years ago, and it has changed my life for the better by significantly reducing the clutter and possessions in my life. One area that I do show with now is what you described in prior podcasts as Spartanism. I find myself often going through my house and work office, looking for and thinking of things that I could throw away. And every Tuesday morning, which is trash day, I'm always looking at what could be thrown out last minute before the cans are emptied. I

• 2:48Speaker 03

  feel as if I get a rush or a high by throwing things out. I oftentimes feel seduced by the minimalism of fictional characters like Ben Affleck's Christian Wolfe in The Accountant. Example, you know, one plate, one fork, one knife in his kitchen, or his closet only having a couple of t-shirts and a couple of black suits that are all the same. Or Alan Ritchie's Jack Reacher. Example, who owns nothing he can't carry on him. I worry, though, that this desire to constantly downsize and inability to feel satisfied with the level

• 3:29Speaker 03

  of belongings that I retain, which do provide value and purpose, could be damaging long term and even unhealthy. I am also dating a minimalist woman, though nowhere near to the degree of me, who I will likely marry in the next year or two, and likely seek to have children with. I do worry that my Spartanism tendencies and sometimes potential obsessive desires to become, uh, could become problematic, once it just isn't me, and I'm formally sharing my life with a wife and children, which will bring upon additional clutter and possessions.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  Any insight that you could provide to help me conquer these Spartanism desires to find a balance between being a minimalist who desires to have little and being comfortable with the possessions I do and will have in the future would be greatly appreciated. I thank you for all that you do. Thank you.

• 4:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So TK, I love the examples that he gives because he's describing me in so many ways. I'm so compelled by Spartanism. We should probably start for those who are uninitiated with what Spartanism is. It's essentially the opposite of hoarding. They both exist on the OCD continuum. It's easy to spot hoarders, right? If you walk into a stage five hoarder's home, it's like there's trash everywhere, maybe exits are blocked. There are just things all strewn all about the place, or weird smells, and you can point it out, you could say, "I can identify that. That's a hoarder." A hoarder doesn't... A hoarder is unable to let go of anything. A Spartanism, which is different from a Spartan, like the movie

• 5:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  300, we're not talking about that at all, but a Spartanism is on the other side of that continuum. A Spartanism is not able to hold on to anything. And so, it's kind of the analogy is, if I were to put you on a jungle gym, and you put glue on one hand and butter on the other, one hand is a hoarder. They can't let go of the bar when they're climbing across the monkey bars. But the other hand, that has just butter on it, it can't even reach and hold on to anything. And that's what a Spartanism is. Usually, it starts with the stuff, and he mentioned a couple of examples here. Two people that are really compelling to me. Christian Wolfe from the movie The Accountant, great film,

• 5:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  played by Ben Affleck. And then you have Jack Reacher, which is another film, there's a TV version that he mentioned as well, but played by Tom Cruise in the film version. And they are both ultra-minimist. Now, I don't know whether or not they're Spartanism, but their tendencies certainly look Spartanism. They're very OCD, especially Christian Wolfe, having the one piece of silverware in the drawer. You open it up, and aesthetically, it's beautiful, it's pleasing. But there's a couple of commonalities between these two guys. First off, they are single people living in the world alone. In fact, you might even say that they are lonely.

• 6:37Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And part of Derek's question here is whether or not that lifestyle can comport with a lifestyle of living as a minimalist with a family and kids. And the answer to that is no. There are always some sort of trade offs or concessions that are made when you're living with other people or among other people. But the other commonality with these two characters, as compelling as they might be, is they are fictional characters. These are works of fiction. These are not real human beings. And just like you might look up to Batman or Superman, you don't have the expectation of being able to fly over tall buildings in a single bound.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  I don't know. Listen, listen. Jack Reacher might not be a fictional character. I feel like you could be one of those dudes. I'm serious. And in another universe, not very dissimilar from this one, I can see you being that kind of guy. You know, you only need one tie. You probably don't even need a tie, but you don't need a lot. And you don't have trouble walking away from anything. That would make you very good for like the mafia, the CIA. Like, I just feel like there's this world in which your minimalism makes you thrive. It's just like, I don't know, like a really like secretive dude or scary dude or powerful guy. What do you think? You ever had an attraction to that, being like CIA or anything?

• 7:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm attracted to the aesthetics of it. When I see the Christian Wolfe character in The Accountant.

• 8:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But you have to realize that the point of what he's doing is not an aesthetic choice. The aesthetics are a byproduct of the life that he is living. And I think the same thing is true with minimalism. Minimalism by getting rid of the excess, what you're left with is something that tends to be more aesthetically pleasing. In fact, in Derek's question, he even said that the reduced clutter has improved my life. Well, why is that? Well, if something's clutter, that means it's in the way. How do you improve your life? By getting something out of the way? It's because you no longer have those things in the way anymore. You've removed these unnecessary obstacles so you can deal with the real obstacles in your life.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, I guess the Spartanism thing is really tricky too. You explained it in terms of hoarding and Spartanism being two sides of the same coin. But when it comes to hoarding, we can see it pretty easily, right? If something is just in the way or taking up so much space that we can barely move around or efficiently access the things that we want and need, it's pretty clear. You walk into a hoarder's home, you just kind of know.

• 9:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 04

  You could make some sort of devil's advocate argument. Oh, maybe they need a thousand packets of ketchup. But you just kind of know. But when I walk into a Spartanism's home, I just see simplicity.

• 9:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  I have to be able to look at the activity and their relationship to the activity in order to know that there's something unhealthfully obsessive going on. And so that's part of what makes it tricky.

• 9:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, and the unhealthfully obsessive part is the key because there's nothing inherently wrong with being obsessive. I'm obsessive about writing. It's allowed me to produce some of the most meaningful things to me. It's created a lot of purpose in my life. But what you're talking about is when that obsession goes too far. And so you're right, if you walk into a Zen monastery, how do you know whether or not they're just being intentional? Or are they Spartanists? Do they have an inability to hold on to things that might add value to their lives? And that's really how I would define Spartanism for the purposes of this conversation. It's not just the inability to hold on. It's the inability to hold on to that which will add value to your life. And that often starts with the stuff. But you see people who are Spartanists.

• 10:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I know a person who had pretty severe mental illness and became a Spartanism. And yes, he got rid of all of his things. And at some point, he was, I mean, he had things in his home, really beautiful things that added value to his life. But then he got rid of them and he was sleeping on the floor at some point. And even then, that's not necessarily Spartanism. That might be an ascetic endeavor. Maybe for a period of time, you are renouncing certain things so you can prove to yourself that you don't need them. That is doing so intentionally. But then I saw him shedding more and more and the behavior started to become more and more erratic. His apartment looked like- He hadn't moved in yet, or he had just moved out because there was functionally

• 10:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  nothing there. And then I noticed he started letting go of other things in his life, his passions, his pursuits, he let go of his career. And in and of themselves, those can be great things. I'm walking away from this career to pursue something I'm passionate about. Or guess what? I'm walking away from this passion that used to be my passion, but I'm no longer passionate about that. You're doing so with intention. But then he started shunning relationships. His marriage ended, he stopped talking to his kids, he stopped talking to friends and family and coworkers, and not just stopped talking to them, actively pushed them away and was aggressive toward them and acting, well, first acted in passive aggressive ways. And when that didn't get the results that he wanted, he started lashing out at

• 11:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  people and being actively harmful to other people. And ultimately, you'll notice the thing with Spartanism is it tends to be harmful to that person as well. And that's why I say, I look at Jack Reacher and I look at Christian Wolfe, these fictional characters. And I'm like, I don't know whether or not they were actual Spartanists, but they were, because it seems like they were being intentional with what they had. But if I were to just mimic the life that they're living, then I wouldn't be intentional. I'd just be picking up their habits and pretending it was going to turn my life into their life.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  I like this distinction you make between being obsessive and being unhealthfully obsessive, because in our culture of distraction, the simplest amount of focus can make you appear obsessive to most people. And there's nothing wrong with having a sense of intentionality that makes you go about your day, actively looking for opportunities to develop a skill or to highlight some aspect of reality that you enjoy. So, I mean, what if you walked around and said, hey, I'm gonna look at every person that passes by me, and I'm gonna try to identify one thing about them that I really like. Hey, that's kind of obsessive. That's kind of focused. But that can actually be a very healthy, fulfilling practice. And I think what you have to do is ask two questions.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Number one, do I enjoy the activity? That's the first thing, because sometimes we find ourselves doing things impulsively and compulsively. And we know while we're doing them, we don't enjoy them. But we feel like the choice is being made for us, like there's something that's driving us to do it in spite of ourselves. The second question is important because you might give an affirmative answer to do I enjoy the activity? But it still can be unhealthy because you can shoot up heroin and enjoy that activity. So the second question is important. Do I endorse, embrace and enjoy the after effects? Once I see what this activity does, does to me, the way it affects my mind, the way it affects my body, the way it affects my relationships in my life, do I look at that and say, yeah, I stand by that.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  I endorse that. I embrace that. I enjoy that. Then you know you've got something good. And so you never, ever, ever have to let go of something in the name of minimalism, in the name of righteousness, in the name of anything. If you can look at it and say, I enjoy it while doing it. But when I consider the effects that it has on my life, it really is making me the kind of person that I want to be in such a way that I can look at those results and say, I endorse them, I embrace them, I enjoy them. If you got that, you got yourself a good thing. If you don't have that, then you need to take a look at the way to go about it healthfully.

• 14:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And that's really the answer to how do I know when I've taken downsizing too far?

• 14:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The same with how do I know when I've taken accumulation too far as well? It's like, you know what, maybe it's not pleasant in the moment. Or even if it is pleasant in the moment, because hedonism is pleasant in the moment. And maybe even asceticism can be pleasant in the moment in, in some euphoric way as well. Where we deprived ourselves, like if you go fasting for a long time from food, people talk about at some point, you start to feel euphoric. I did a six day fast once with just water and it was euphoric.

• 14:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Toward the end of it, but of course, if I were to do that in perpetuity, I know I would not be happy with the the final results. You're starving yourself to death. And I think that's what Spartanism is. On a physical level, you start to starve yourself of that which adds value to your life. The meaningful experiences, the purpose giving experiences, the things that augment or enhance your experience of life, the things that magnify life and make it beautiful. Removing those things can ultimately be harmful for us on a long enough timeline, the same way that hoarding can be harmful. And so in a weird way, Spartanism is its own type of clutter,

• 15:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  because it gets in the way of living a meaningful life. And it sounds to me like Derek is looking for a meaningful life. And part of that for him is he's at this fork in the road. I've met this woman. She's a minimalist, or maybe not as minimalist as I am. No one's going to be exactly like you, obviously, right? And if you met someone who's more minimalist than you, then you'd be saying that as well. But then you're also worried about the children that you don't yet have. And of course, to worry is to pray for something bad to happen in the future. I understand the concern is, hey, what happens if I get into a relationship and then I have kids? And it's getting in the way of my minimalist tendencies.

• 16:20Speaker 04

  Don't worry about the kids. They're gonna choose to be the opposite of whatever you choose to be.

• 16:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That happened to me early on. I remember when Ella was really young. She might have been three years old and maybe four. Yeah, she was three. And she was collecting sticks. And she would leave them at our front door. We had the stool outside our front door, and she would just stack up sticks and rocks. And I said, Well, why are you doing this? And she looked at me, she goes, I just love stuff.

• 16:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so Derek, I can assure you.

• 16:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That your wife and your kid, future kids, will have an influence on your life in some way. And they will do some things that may not perfectly align with your desire to live like Jack Reacher. If you want to live like Jack Reacher, Jack Reacher does not have kids. He does not have a wife. You'd have to sacrifice it. That would be the trade off. And if that's a worthwhile trade off for you, fine. But for most of us, that's not a worthwhile trade off. I can still have a minimalist home. I can still have a minimalist family. I can still have my needs met. I can still avoid the excess for me. But I also have to understand that there are compromises within the household because I don't want to have dominion

• 17:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  over everyone else's choices. As much as a control freak as I am, because I also am on the OCD continuum. I have OCD. I've been diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. And for me to let go of that, meant to let go of some of that control or the need to control the people and the things around me.

• 18:00Speaker 04

  And compromise doesn't have to mean self negation. It's not an entirely either or thing. So with me, for example, I could benefit from hours upon hours of alone time. Everyone and anyone in my life is going to experience the desire to hang out with me before or faster than I experienced the desire to hang out with them. Not because I don't love them, but it just takes me a long amount of time before I get to the point where I'm like, hey, I need to go out there and get some social activity. But with that being said, in order for me to have family life, I have to compromise some of that alone time and say, all right, I could benefit from three hours, but maybe I'll get an hour today and spend this other two with family. But that doesn't mean I have to negate or ignore that alone time and treat my needs as if they don't matter and say, I'm just going to give all of my time to my family.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  Because my ability to be there for my family and the people that I love does require a baseline level of honoring those things that make me my best self. So when it comes to your minimalism, yes, you will have to compromise some of that when you bring in the wife and the kids because they are going to need things that you don't need, but you will want them to have because. It's a healthier life for them. But at the same time, know what those things are for you. That constitute what I will say are your non-negotiables. Like, you gotta have this much sleep. You gotta have a certain amount of space, a certain amount of clarity in your mind and freedom from clutter. In order for you to be the very best that you can be to your wife and your kids.

• 19:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think about my vegan friends here where I have some vegan friends who date people who aren't vegan. Right? And it doesn't mean they're going to compromise their own dietary choices around that in order to appease someone else. But at the same time, the most successful relationships, they're also not trying to control the other person.

• 19:45Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 19:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  They have a choice there. They could say, I have one vegan friend and she's like, you know what? I'm not going to get into a relationship with anyone else who isn't also a vegan. I understand that. It makes it, it makes it easier. And I feel that same way sort of about minimalism in the sense that if you were a hoarder, it'd be much more difficult for me to be in a living situation with you. Although I've dated someone who was an artist before, who was, was borderline a hoarder. You, I think in fact was probably a stage three hoarder. Like I was stage two or three back in my corporate days. And it was in her space and I didn't have to deal with any of that. And so I didn't have the desire to change that person. But if that was brought into my space and then I had to share it, there would be additional concerns.

• 20:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That would be a non-negotiable for me. But there are even ways to negotiate around those non-negotiables. Any last words for Derek?

• 20:39Speaker 04

  You know, I, I think when it comes to any area of life, a little bit of interdisciplinary thinking can help. Sometimes we get so close to the one topic, one subject, one theme that we're thinking about. That when we back up, we can get a little bit more creative. And I would say how you deal with problems as they pertain to minimalism. Same rules as how you deal with any other problem. How do I know if I'm fasting too much, eating too much? How do I know if I'm indulging in video games too much or sleep too much or sleeplessness too much? How do I know if I'm doing too much social activity? How do I know if I'm getting too much alone time? How do I know if I have too few, too many clothes? We can ask a million and one questions about a million and one things, but it all comes down to being centered and being grounded in an awareness of what your why is.

• 21:24Speaker 04

  Why am I doing any of this stuff in the first place? Because if I take away the purpose for a thing, all the discipline in relation to it becomes meaningless. Why did I start getting rid of stuff? Why did I start simplifying things? Because there was something beyond the thing that I wanted to focus on. And when you step back to remember that, how you deal with minimalism issues is how you deal with any other life issue. Remember why you started it in the first place and stay in touch with that. And then you can exercise creativity on finding new ways to get to that why, even when people in your life challenge you to change up the game with your how.

• 22:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love that. Hoarding is quite often about holding on to things. Spartanism is often about renouncing or getting rid of or shunning the things. Minimalism is about what happens on the other side of those things.

• 22:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 22:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When you let go of the excess, what have you actually made room for? Because Derek could set his life up to look just like Christian Wolfe in The Accountant, which is a great film. I really enjoyed that film. But then you're not going to live Christian Wolfe's life because you're not Christian Wolfe. You're not this fictional character. If you saw some tools in that film, however, that would allow you to get some excess out of the way, great. But realize that that end goal is not your end goal. You want what's on the other side of letting go. Derek, I'd love to give you a free clutter counseling session with TK Coleman. We're talking a lot about clutter today. Now, of course, that could be physical clutter, but beneath this, there's some sort of emotional clutter.

• 23:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I see some identity clutter here as well, and maybe even some future relationship clutter. And who knows what other kind of clutter you might be dealing with, whether it's career clutter or calendar clutter or anything in between. TK just opened up next month's calendar for clutter counseling. Head on over to theminimalists.com. You can click counseling at the top if you want to book a session with him. But Derek, we're going to give you a free session for your Wonderful question. Before we get back to our callers, Malibu, what time is it?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  You know what time it is. It's time for the lightning round where we answer the Patreon community chat's question of the week.

• 23:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, indeed. Now, during the lightning round, we each have 60 seconds to answer your question with a short, shareable, minimal maxim. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox, including seven new maxims every Monday for free if you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.e-mail. We'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. What's the question of the week this week?

• 24:07Speaker 01

  How do you stop yourself from minimizing excessively?

• 24:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, this is in vain with the whole Spartanism thing because it's minimizing excessively. So before we get to our pithy answers, TK, let's hear how some of our listeners answered this question.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Cassinia said, "I don't stop myself from decluttering because excessiveness is relative. If I feel like I am missing something later, I just buy it again and remember the lesson."

• 24:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes. You know, we have the just in case rule. It's one of the 16 rules in our minimalist rulebook, which folks can download for free on our site. And one of them is the just in case rule, and we also call it the 2020 rule. Now, Ryan and I came up with this rule back in St. Petersburg, Florida in 2011, our very first tour stop. We show up in Florida, and I felt like as minimalists, we're on the book tour for our first book, Minimalism. And then we show up and our whole trunk is full of stuff. And we packed so many just in case items. I had like three pairs of swimming trunks and a pair of scissors. And I brought a suit with me just in case there was a funeral or a wedding or whatever's going on there. I wasn't sure, but it was like, I'm going to pick up all of these things,

• 25:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  bring them with me just in case. And so I realized next time I was packing, I wasn't going to pack any just in case items. But then I brought that into my home as well, and so did Ryan. And we learned that any just in case item that you get rid of, you can replace for less than $20 in less than 20 minutes from wherever you are. And that rule has held true 100% of the time for For us, but the rule, we think it holds the true 99% of the time. I'm sure there's going to be some exception that proves the rule. But ultimately, what, what this, this commenter is saying here is, you know what? If I'm missing something, I'll just buy it again later. But the truth is, you almost never have to replace those things that you end up getting rid of.

• 25:58Speaker 04

  And how many times?

• 25:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  As long as you let go intentionally.

• 26:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. And how many times have we heard from people on this very show even? Who say things like, yeah, I heard you say that before, and I just was a little too scared to let it go. Cause I didn't want to spend the money on it again, if I needed it. But then after paying $60 a month, $200 a month on storage, a year and a half later, I go, oh, I've already spent a thousand dollars on that thing and I'm still keeping it and never used it. Okay. I'll get rid of it. I'd rather just pay $20 in the future instead of $200 a month now.

• 26:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's spot on. What else we got?

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Andrea said, I tend to use a replacement rule. If I can easily replace it, then it's fair game to let it go. If there's something about an item that's not easy to replace, that includes sentimentality, then I take time to think about it before I decide to let it go. Once I've settled it in my heart, I can let go confidently and minimize my regrets this way.

• 26:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. Letting go with confidence. Sometimes it's just letting go. And then the confidence comes after the letting go. Sometimes there's an uncertainty and ah, there's just so much stuff. We have this clutter series, this household clutter series we're getting ready to start. So if anyone has a question about kitchen clutter, your cabinet clutter, maybe living room clutter, or garage clutter, bedroom clutter, we're bringing in some guest experts to talk about these topics. Feel free to call in and let us know what your question is about that specific area of your home. But sometimes you just, you deal with an area because you're unconfident about it. You, you feel insecure about the area and the letting go actually makes you feel more confident about the space. Once you've gotten the excess out of the way.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Cheryl says, if I want to get rid of something, I use the wait for it rule in reverse. I put the thing in a pile and then allow myself a set amount of time to go without it. I feel anxious, I take time to unpack what I'm feeling and then revisit the decision again. This allows me to have no regrets and ensures that an item that no longer adds value to my life before I decide to let it go.

• 27:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know what's fascinating about this is the wait for it rule usually has to do with purchases, right? I'm gonna, if something costs more than thirty dollars, I'll wait at least thirty hours to buy it. Not because I don't have the money, but because I want to make sure this is the best use of that time, attention, resource, et cetera. And so what Cheryl was saying here is I do the same thing with letting go. Maybe I'll wait thirty hours to let go of this thing, just to make sure that I feel like, ah, this is definitely something I want to let go of. That one wouldn't work for me because once I've made the decision to let it go, I want to let it go immediately so that I don't have a chance to talk, because I'm really good at talking myself into holding on to something. I've got all the best excuses in the world to hold on, to cling.

• 28:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so if I've decided to let it go, I'm gonna let it go right away.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Mindy says, "I have bought the same item multiple times after excessively minimizing. So now I set a tickler reminder to ask myself if I still want to get rid of an item a week or two later. Learning to pause when the urge arises has been really helpful for me."

• 29:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So I think learning to pause, there's nothing wrong with that. Quite often, it's you must take action, massive action, hurry, hurry, hurry. But sometimes it's like, okay. Intentionality involves the pause, the waiting to make that decision. Let's do one more.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Fernando says, "I like the packing party concept as a way to keep from excessive decluttering. This way, time will tell if I will miss it or not."

• 29:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, so Ryan's Packing Party, which was in our last Netflix film, was just a way, because you know you're forced to confront everything when you move. Now, a Spartanism wouldn't have any problem, because a true Spartanism wouldn't even need a box to move. They would just leave the house and everything in it, even if there was a thousand things or ten thousand things, because you're shunning that, right? But the packing party was like, okay, let me box up everything. I still have access to all of it and I'll unpack the things as I need them. Spoiler alert, you learn that you can't even remember most of the things that you own once you've put them into boxes. I'd be interested TK, because I know you have a lot of books, although far, far, far fewer than you used to, once upon a time. But if we were to put

• 30:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  all your books in a box and Michelle told you, you can keep the ones that you can name.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  Emma, what do you think? How good of a job you think I could do at this?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  You know, honestly, the hundreds of episodes that I've sat here and listened to you be able to rattle off authors and books and films and stuff, I bet you he could rattle off his entire catalog right then and there.

• 30:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hmm. What do you think?

• 30:33Speaker 04

  I'd be like, put on a cup of coffee, and not only will I name every single book I've ever bought, but I'll tell you where I was, how that book came to me, and why it's on the shelf.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  But that's the thing, is you really, really dig into that. You have that kind of connection. You don't just buy books to have books, but you buy books for a reason. They stand out to you in that way.

• 30:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, but before you make me make this a virtue, I also should remind you that I couldn't even remember my own brother's birthday.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Ouch.

• 30:59Speaker 04

  But I know the ISBN number for my books.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  My stars.

• 31:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, I was meant to surprise you. We actually have Michelle at home boxing up your books right now. She's gonna call in later on the Pride Podcast.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  Let's go.

• 31:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There was one more here from Ann. We should read this one.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Ann says, "When decluttering stops being fun for me, that's when I know it's excessive."

• 31:22Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know, what's fascinating about this one is decluttering was never fun to me until I made it more fun. So we have like the 30 Day Minimalism Game, a new month's right around the corner. You can download the free calendar over at theminilists.com, just click on the resources page there. But that was a way for me to make decluttering more fun. Partner up with someone, a friend, a family member, a coworker, and let go together. This happens in other areas of my life, too. Like, I like watching basketball games, but I enjoy it much more if I'm watching a game with someone. I like going to concerts, and I'm fine with going to a concert by myself, but I enjoy going to a concert much more when I have that shared experience with someone else. And I think, at least for me, decluttering is pretty similar.

• 32:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So I'd love to hear from more of our listeners. Is that the same for you? Maybe call in, leave a voice recording. You can send a voice memo to [email protected]. So many other people responded to this topic. You can read dozens of other listener responses in the Patreon community chat. Did you know you can join our Patreon community chats for free? By the way, of course, we'd love for you to support our work financially, but if you can't afford the private podcast episodes, you can still join our Patreon community chats by becoming a free member on Patreon. The link is down in the description. How about you listeners? How do you stop yourself from minimizing excessively? Let us know in the comments. All right. Give me something pithy TK.

• 32:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What, uh, how do you stop yourself from minimizing excessively?

• 32:51Speaker 04

  Today's TK tongue twister is purpose prevents pointless pruning.

• 32:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Alliteration. I love it.

• 33:00Speaker 04

  Bama, can you say that really quickly? Purpose prevents pointless pruning.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Purpose prevents pointless pruning.

• 33:04Speaker 04

  So I think about statements like, I want to be a writer. I want to be an influencer. I want to be a business person. I want to be an actor. These types of statements turn something that is very specific and concrete into a kind of ontological status to pursue. And you start making a bunch of decisions that you think will lead you to becoming a writer, becoming a business person, when in reality, the way that you get there is by saying, forget about all of that. That's way too abstract. Do I have a story that I want to tell? Well, let me get down to the business of telling the story. And once you do that, the world will slap the writer label on you. And maybe they won't, but it won't matter. You will have done the thing that makes writing meaningful.

• 33:50Speaker 04

  Or do you have some sort of service or product that you're passionate about and you believe it will create value for people? Well, get to it. Start putting it out there and the world will put the label business person on you. And even if they don't, it doesn't matter because you will have done all of the things that the label is designed to serve. There's a similar thing with minimalism. I often say, forget about being a minimalist. Forget about being a better minimalist. Forget about minimizing. Forget all of that and ask yourself, is there something you want to do with your life? Yeah, what is that? Is there anything in the way of that? Yeah, what is that? What do you feel right now? Yeah, go do it. And whether someone calls you a minimalist

• 34:32Speaker 04

  for doing that or not, it doesn't really matter because you've done the very thing, the only thing that minimalism can help you do. Identify what makes you come alive and get rid of everything that gets in the way of that.

• 34:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You make me think about my daughter saying, I love stuff, right?

• 34:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But as a kid, I was the same way.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But as kids, we often get confused that the purpose of the thing is the thing itself.

• 34:55Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 34:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I would see a bunch of tools. Oh, that's a really cool hammer. That's a really cool chainsaw and think the point of it is just to play with the thing. And when you're a kid, it is sort of the point. You can just play with the hammer and you can go hammer a tree in the yard for no reason and that's fine. And that is the experience of play, right? But if you're actually wanting to do something with the hammer, then the hammer has a purpose. It becomes a tool. In the same way, minimalism becomes a tool to let go, which really brings me to my pithy answer. It's an oldie but a goodie. Letting go is not something you do. It is something you stop doing. You stop clinging to the excess stuff. You stop clinging to the stories about the way things should be. You stop clinging

• 35:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  to toxic relationships. You stop clinging to busyness. You stop clinging to status or square footage. You stop clinging to whatever is in the way. And that's not something you have to do. You just have to loosen your grip until the clinging stops. And you can still hold on to a thing. You can hold it loosely. And as long as it serves you, how wonderful is that?

• 36:05Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 36:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But if it stops serving you, it's okay to set it down. If you set it down with intention, that's not Spartanism. That's minimalism. Minimalism is the tool for letting go.

• 36:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, that's the end of page one. We have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to still on pages two and three. But first, real quick for right here, right now, here's one, or two, or actually, three things that are going on in the life of the minimalist. You know, we just had a birthday. The minimalist just turned 14 years old. We're finally old enough to drink in Kentucky.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  What? That's not a real thing.

• 36:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Well, I'll talk to my family. They'll disagree with you.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Oh, my stars.

• 36:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  No, December 14th, we turned 14 years old, which means we've been minimizing for about 15 years now. All this started when, when my mom died, my marriage ended, and I started questioning everything in my life. And then I started letting go. And over the course of eight months, I shed about 90% of my material possessions. And then Nicodemus came to me one day at work, and he was like, hey, man, why the hell are you so happy? And that opened up this door to talk about simplifying my own life. Talk about this thing called minimalism. And that led to his packing party, and we started writing about it. And so on December 14th, 2010, we launched theminimists.com as this little blog. And a lot has happened

• 37:25Joshua Fields Millburn?

  since then, whether it's the films, or the tours, or the books. But it all started with this little website called theminimists.com. And now we've got this podcast, and Bama's here, and DK's here, and Savvy D, and the rest of our team. And we've had this chance to contribute beyond ourselves in a meaningful way. So, thank you to all of the day ones who are out there since 2010. I still hear from a few of you, 2011, and it's only grown since then. Really grateful to have you here on the minimalist podcast. Also, this month, we were just on Jeopardy. Can you believe this?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it looked like AI when Ryan sent it to us.

• 38:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I was so shocked. Nicodemus, he just sent me this video of, it was a $1,200 question on, this is December 4th of 2024. And he sent me this, this video, and it was the $1,200 question under isms. And it said something to the effect of, "This simple living duo, Joshua Fields Milburn and Ryan Nicodemus, are proponents of this lifestyle, which believes less is more." And of course, the guy who answered it got it right. He said, what is minimalism? And I'm like, Nicodemus, did you just, what AI filter did you use to set this up? I never thought in my entire life that I would be an answer on Jeopardy.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  You've made it. You're bona fide now.

• 38:51Speaker 04

  That's success.

• 38:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But then I immediately wrote them a letter and said, I can't believe you omitted TK Coleman.

• 38:56Speaker 04

  Wait, I thought you filed a lawsuit.

• 38:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It was a petition.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Ask that guy for your $12,000. You didn't get that right.

• 39:05Speaker 04

  I was really trying to keep it PG.

• 39:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  A few of you will get that reference, but anyway, I don't know if you could find that out there anywhere. I couldn't find it on YouTube, but it was fun. Thanks to all of the listeners who sent that to me. Within the next day or so, I had all kinds of people filming their TV and they were posting things about it. And so, I don't know, it was just, I still am in a little bit of disbelief. I thought maybe it was artificial intelligence. One last thing, ever since we started doing this partnership with the earthing folks, I have struggled to be able to explain earthing. It's really helped me immensely. And I wrote this essay about how to minimize chronic pain. And that was so much better than trying to hand people a book for earthing.

• 39:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Because whenever I would explain to people who have some sort of autoimmune condition or they have inflammation really bad, or maybe they have ulcers or ALS or Irritable Bowel Syndrome or IBD, whatever it was. I say, hey, I've been doing this thing for a few years now, this earthing thing. It's really been helping me. And then they say, oh yeah, what is it? And I would say, ah, read this book. Spend the next nine hours of your life reading this book. And that obviously doesn't resonate with people. And so, I wrote this essay and I found a way to turn it into a one-page sort of guide here. And it's available for free. You can download it on our website, theminimists.com. Just click the resources page there. We have a bunch of free resources, including this one page. I have it printed out here in front of me.

• 40:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Alabama always likes the, the paper sounds there.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  The crinkles.

• 40:40Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it is just about like, it's the who, what, how, when, where, who benefits from earthing? What is earthing? How does earthing work? Because from the beginning, I've wanted to be able to say, here's an explanation of earthing. Here's what it is. And I just wanted one piece of paper and it didn't exist. Or if it did, it wasn't very well written. And so I wrote that essay and then Dave over at Spire turned it into, you know, at least the best parts of that essay into this beautiful one-page brochure, tri-fold thing, but you can just download it from our website for free at theminimists.com. It is called Benefits of Grounding Explained: Minimize Chronic Pain, Disease, and Inflammation with Earthing. And so if anyone has a question, what the heck is earthing?

• 41:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now I have this one piece of paper I can hand to them and say, here you go. Here's the information. Enjoy it. That's all I got for now. Malibu, what else you got for us?

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Here's a minimalist insight from one of our listeners.

• 41:39Speaker 05

  Hi, minimalists. This is Andrea. I'm a Patreon subscriber from Yakima, Washington. And one of the most helpful minimalist tools for me is to wait on it. I shop online and I will frequently put items in my cart and leave them there for at least a day. Sometimes it'll be weeks or even months. But I find that by putting space between the initial impulse and the actual purchase, I'm able to think a lot more clearly about whether or not this item will really bring value to my life, which means that I've learned that I can live without a lot of things. And the things that I have purchased end up being a lot more valuable to me in the long run. Just thought I would share. Thanks for listening. Bye.

• 42:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Andrea, thank you so much for that thoughtful comment. The wait for it rule, that is the spirit. Stave off those impulse purchases by waiting for it. For anyone else has a listener tip or insight about this episode or any other episode, leave a comment on Patreon or YouTube, or better yet, we'd love to hear from you. Send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature you. Your voice on the show. All right, that's the first 38% of episode 473. We'll see you on Patreon for the full maximal edition, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Questions like, how can I embrace my Spartanist tendencies if my partner prefers to be more conventional? What can I do if minimalism has made me too obsessive

• 43:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  about new purchases? What are five simple steps toward a more meaningful holiday season? One last holiday question to get in there before Christmas. Plus, we've got a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. By the way, Patreon has made it possible to gift a subscription of the Minimalist Private Podcast to anyone. So if you know a friend or a family member or a coworker who might benefit from our private podcast, visit patreon.com/theminimalist to give them a month or several months or even a year subscription. And that is our minimal episode for today. Big thanks to Earthing Studios for the recording space. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Malabama Post Production Peter, Spire Jeff and Spire Dave,

• 43:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Savvy D and the rest of our team. I'm Joshua Fields Milburn. If you leave here today with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things,

• 44:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  because the opposite never works.

• 44:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Thanks for listening, y'all.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  We'll see you next time.

• 44:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Peace.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Happy holidays.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.