551 | Children of Hoarders

Joshua and T. K. talk about inheriting clutter from hoarder parents, possessions we wish would disappear from our homes, how the spending habits of rich people are raising prices on everyday goods, and much more. Discussed in this episode: Does compassion without boundaries become captivity? (0:45) How can I escape my inherited clutter? (3:38) What's one item in your home you wish would disappear? (20:03) Right Here, Right Now: Kudos to Audio Ben for making our remote episode sound so good. (34:59) Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist, I'm Joshua Fields, Millburn. And here's something that you are. Compassion without boundaries becomes captivity. TK Coleman, where does that ring true for you? Compassion without boundaries becomes captivity.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  Well, the absence of boundaries to me is, is the inability or unwillingness to ever say no. And I think if you can't say no, then your yeses lose their meaning. Because your yes has to be trustworthy. Your yes has to be an honest expression of what you want to do. And the absence of no's creates this ambiguity around your yes. Where I can never know if your so-called expressions of love or goodwill are honest reflections of what you really want to do. Or it's an expression of your fear of me not liking you. Your fear of disappointing me or your fear of feeling guilty. And so in order to really love someone, you have to have the ability

• 1:43Speaker 02

  to be truthful, even if that means I can't do that.

• 1:47Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hmm, I think one of the greatest problems that we have in our lives is an inability to say no at the appropriate times. And I think that the caveat is important here because I also don't want to be the vice president of no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's why I used to, I had a boss who was a vice president back in my corporate days. We would call him the vice president of no. Because no matter what idea you brought to him, it was always a no.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Before you finish your sentence, he was already ready to help you out. Let me save you some time.

• 2:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right, right. It was always a no. And so I think the opposite of what you're saying is also true. If everything is a no, then it sort of shuts down the conversation as well. And so we want to approach life with a healthy understanding of when to say yes and when to say no and why we're doing both. And I think that's kind of what I want to talk to you about today with some of the questions we have coming up. We, we're going to talk about inheriting clutter from hoarder parents, also possessions we wish, wish would disappear from our homes. And the most minimalist, well, actually, you know what? I'm going to save that one for next week. I've got a whole lot to talk to you about today.

• 3:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So also on page three, we're going to talk about how rich people keep spending money on unapologetic luxury and why it's raising prices on everyday goods for everyone. So let's just dive right into the callers. TK, 406-219-7839. If you want to join the show, or you're going to send a voice memo right from your phone to [email protected]. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber so we can prioritize your message. A big thanks to our patrons. Your support keeps our podcast 100% advertisement free. Because sing along at home, y'all. Advertisements suck. Our first question today is from Chris in Riverside.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Hi, my name is Chris. I've been listening to your podcast for about three years now. I am a child of a hoarder. My mom passed in 2018. I've had her collectibles in my house since then. My siblings are also unstable. So I have their half of my mom's stuff in my room, in my house, in my garage. It's an eyesore. I'm done with it. I feel like I'm stuck. I feel like I'm trapped with this stuff. She had jewelry, gems, hobbies, comic book collecting, Beanie Baby collecting, a lot of memorabilia, trading cards and such. I feel like I'm stuck.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  My siblings want it, but they don't have the means to keep it. I don't want it, don't care about it, but I know it's of great value to them. Granted, they're collectibles and they're in my possession for years. I'm just, I feel like I'm trapped because I cannot get past these and they're an eyesore and I just wish they'd disappear in any way, shape or form. But just kind of feel trapped, stuck, overwhelmed. And emptied a house, 40 years of hoarding in about two weeks. So therefore, everything in my house is organized, pretty much.

• 5:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, so organizing is well-planned hoarding if we're not careful. That was my biggest problem before I discovered minimalism. I thought everything, if I could organize my way to happiness and to order. And it looks orderly, but it's like hiding the chaos. You know, it's, it's like if I have termites in my house and I just start painting over top of the termites. They don't go away. The problem is still there, even if the facade looks much nicer. And so Chris has, has dealt with a lot of this stuff, but she still hasn't escaped this clutter. That phrase that stood out to me is, "I'm done with it." And you could hear that in her voice. "I'm done with it."

• 5:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think this is a, a good question because on the surface, it's about this clutter that she's inherited. But underneath, it's really about responsibility. It's about boundaries. It's about permission. And that's why I started the show with that maxim. Compassion without boundaries becomes captivity. TK, how do you distinguish between preserving someone's memories and preserving their clutter?

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Well, one of those things makes you come alive. And one of those things makes you feel dead inside. When, when you are preserving the very best of someone's memory, that's something that, you know, propels you to live life more, more creatively or, or more fully. On the other hand, when you're clinging to clutter, then that kind of makes you feel like your feet are chained to the ground. You've got places you want to go. You've got ways you want to express yourself. And you just feel constrained and it's, and it's bothering you. And she's clearly in that place. She is in a place where she's done, but her family isn't done.

• 7:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  And she's stuck in this unenviable position of being the only one with a place that can house these things. And I don't know what the precise nature of the instability here is, but it sounds like there's a, there's a pretty persuasive argument that it would be unfair or unreasonable or unrealistic to expect the family to just come pick it up or take it in their houses. Maybe they don't have homes. Maybe they don't have space. Maybe they don't have the money to help out. And so this is a very difficult situation. I think even difficult situations have perspectives and, and strategies that can help, but I, but I want to honor the difficulty here. Cause sometimes, you know, I think about when I was a kid and I'm working out a math problem, the best thing that a teacher

• 7:45Speaker 02

  or a parent could have said to me was, "Oh yeah, this, this is a tricky one, but let's sit down and work it out together." And so that's what I want to say here. This is a tricky one, but let's see if we can work it out together.

• 7:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And let's say this, you were in Chris's shoes and the same thing happened to you and you have several siblings. And let's say the exact scenario, you were going through that as well. How would you approach it?

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Well, one of my principles is if there is hard thinking to be done, never do it by yourself unless you really enjoy it. There are some philosophical problems. I want you to leave me alone so I can go take a walk and kind of nerd out in my mind.

• 8:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's play for you though.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  But that's play.

• 8:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  If I've got to solve some problem, let's say related to this studio or this show and your reaction means a lot to me. Your cooperation is necessary for me. There's no way I'm going to, you know, wreck myself by doing all the thinking by myself. I'm going to try to enlist or enroll you in the process. So here's what I would do to just put it plainly. I would, I would demand a Zoom call or a family phone call or a family meeting. I don't know what the, what the geography is of this situation. And I would say, look, guys, I need your help. I need your help. I can't hold this stuff anymore. I've been happy to do it for X amount of years. I understand everyone's got their situation. I'm not issuing out any threats. I'm not about to put this out on the street.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  I want to handle this in a way that respects everyone, but I simply cannot do this by myself. I need you to help me. If, if, if no one can afford to help me pay for storage, if no one can afford to take it in their homes, I get it, not here to debate that. But what we cannot do is force me to be in the position where I've got to come up with some hyper creative solution by myself. I need your help. We got to figure this out together. And so now I'm, now I'm distributing the stress as it rightfully should be distributed, because this isn't just my problem, but I'm experiencing it as, as if it is. And this is really a we problem. And so we need to be stressed about it. We need to be thinking about it. We need to be talking about it.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  And so I would be that Socratic gadfly. I would not let anyone experience what it is like to not have to deal with me and my complaints. I would contend that there be conversations about this and we try to brainstorm a solution that works for everybody.

• 10:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The obvious problem to me is that your whole family inherited the clutter, really inherited the items, but for you it's clutter. So you have this inherited clutter, but with that comes inherited obligation. The unfortunate thing is that you're the only one who inherited the obligation, Chris. Everyone else, they have access to the things. So in the back of their mind, it's fine because I can get that whenever I want. It's there. If I want to access it, Chris, I'm going to treat your home like a storage locker. Now, of course, they're not saying that explicitly, but there is an expectation there. Clearly there's an expectation. They expect you to hold on to these things. And by expecting you to do that, they're expecting you to be obligated without

• 10:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  holding on to any of that obligation on their own. And TK, I think you bring up a good point. I don't want to go into that family meeting and be like, look, I'm done with this obligation. It's now your obligation. You want to deescalate, but in a way that recognizes that we have to have a deadline. It's 30 days or it's 60 days. I'm going to get these things out of my house. Can you help me with a solution? Here are two or three ideas I have. What ideas do you have? And by getting curious in that way, giving them a stake in this decision, you're not just telling them what to do, you're enlisting their agency and figuring this out together.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  That's right. And, and the genuine, authentic expression of frustration can exist hand in hand with respectful communication. So me personally, I would show up to the meeting and begin it with the words of, hey, look, guys, I need everybody to know, I am incredibly, incredibly frustrated with and exhausted by this stuff that I'm keeping in my house.

• 11:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you noticing that it wasn't, I'm frustrated by and exhausted with you. That was not what you were saying.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  And I'm, and I'm going to explicitly state that too, because I, because I, I don't want any distraction by that. But I, what I would lead with, I was done having this stuff in my house about three months ago. The only reason that it's still here is because I love and respect the heck out of you guys. And I want to make sure I do this in a way that gives you all a fair chance to lay claim on the stuff that you want, but that I don't want. So I need some help here because I can't go much longer with having this stuff here. But I also don't want to leave you without any options. So what can we do here? And, and, and I, I wouldn't lead with what my deadline is, but I would lead with that frustration. And I would lead with that respect and let them know this isn't personal.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  And in fact, the only personal element here is that I'm holding on to this because I, I consider them. But I would, I would go into the conversation at least having in the back of my mind, what my, what my deadline is, you know? Is it 90 days? Is it three more months? Am I willing to suffer for three more months? Maybe that's what I'm willing to do. Okay, if you give me a plan of action, if you give me a time where you think you could do something about it. It, it's similar to if someone needs to stay with you, right? That's, that's tough. That's not easy. You, you didn't create or build or buy your living space with the idea that all of your buddies who need help are going to live with you. But let's say, as a friend, you find yourself in a situation where you have a buddy who says, I need a place to stay and you let them live with you.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Sometimes it can help both parties to say, don't rush, don't panic. Okay, I got your back, but let's, let's kind of like agree on some expectations for what it might look like to get yourself together, you know? Like, and, and if, if you have in mind that you can tolerate a year, then maybe that should be known. But if you have in mind that it's going to destroy the friendship, if they don't have a job in two weeks and they're out of there, you gotta let them know that. You gotta let them know that because that person might think three months is a reasonable time. You might think three weeks is a reasonable time, that, that, that is an impending doom that's headed your way. And so just getting that out on the table, what is your expectation?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  But I, but I would lead with the frustration, communicate it respectfully and, and enlist them in the process of helping you sort it out.

• 14:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Can I tell you how I would approach it slightly differently? But you just gave me several things I would definitely incorporate into my approach that would soften it a lot. So let's pretend for a second, you're my clutter counselor.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:21Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right? Clutter counselor TK Coleman, and I'm coming to you and saying, hey, I've got this problem. I've got Chris's problem. Here's how I'm going to handle it with my family. What do you think about it? So the first thing I'm going to do is say, I have a deadline. I'm going to figure out what that deadline is, just based on what TK told me right now is, okay, I know I can deal with this for another week or two weeks or a month, whatever it is. 90 days sounds way too long for me. So I, I recognize that I'm going to have this done by the end of the month.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Although an amazing plan might make you okay with 90 days. If your brother Randy is like, look, I, I, I, on, on this 89th day, I'm going to be on this side of town and I'll have this. Can you just give me that? You might be willing to be like, that's such an amazing plan.

• 14:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  With a good, solid guarantee, I'll give you 90 days.

• 15:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think that's fair. The way I'm going to go into it though, is not expecting it, but if someone counters or wants to negotiate that in, that's totally fine. I'm going to say, hey, by the end of the month, really I want it out by the end of the week, but I'm, I'm giving some grace. And I would even say that, hey, look, I'd really love to get this stuff out of my house by the end of the week. I realize that is a lot to chew on, but so let's, I'm going to give myself till the end of the month. And to get it out of the house, let me tell you what I would do if I were responsible for these things by myself and none of you were in the picture. I would simply donate, recycle and throw out the things that I no longer want to keep. Okay? And however, I recognize and I want to be respectful of your decision to hold on to some of these things. But after this month, you can't keep holding on to it in my house.

• 15:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Can you help me come up with a plan so that you can get the things that you want? And I can get the things out of my house in the timeframe that is desirable for me? Would you adjust that at all?

• 16:01Speaker 02

  I, I love it. And, and this brings up a very important point about the right way to communicate. I think there are some objective components, but also some important subjective components. Objectively, the right way to communicate involves things like respecting another person, right? Communicating with them in a way that they will receive as respectful. But the subjective element is what way do you feel comfortable delivering it? There are some people who, you know, I, I, I mentioned this to you before. And sometimes my mom will be like, hey, uh, give me the words for this. And I'll say, and she'll, and she'll be like, baby, that sound like you. You gotta, you gotta help give it to me like, so I can say it, right?

• 16:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Or, or. Use your chat GPT.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, write this in my voice.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Or, or sometimes Michelle, like she'll have some situation like with a customer or client or something. She'll be like, what would you say? And I'll be like, nah, I can't do that. And she'll be like, okay, but I'm not black. I can't, I can't just say that, right? Like you, you say that in a way that sounds so cool. It doesn't work for me to say it like that, right? And, and so many moments in life, the ability to set a boundary, the ability to assert ourselves, the ability to make something happen comes down not just to the words, but to the tone and the manner of speaking that feels authentic, like I'm talking like how I talk. And so there's somebody out there that would say, no, no, no. I, I can't have this conversation without letting people know that I'm unhappy about it. Okay, let them know, but also keep the respect part intact.

• 17:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm not going to batter you with my unhappiness.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right.

• 17:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. And I think, I think that's important because well, the way that I approach these things is five words. Would you be willing to? Whatever follows after that. And you have to be authentic and, and I think you touched on that there where it's, it can't just be, because that could come off as condescending as well. And so we have to be careful. And I even, every time I ask it, I stop myself and say, okay, Josh, are you really asking them or are you telling them? And if you're telling them, then just go ahead and tell them.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But if you're genuinely asking, then would you be willing to? Especially for the people that you love. I would also say, Chris, finally, the last thing I'll say is that you want to love people enough to stop carrying what belongs to them. And sometimes that's a physical thing, like the stuff you're holding on to. But what about the expectations you're carrying for them as well? What about the sorrow, the grief that you're, the, the ungrieved grief that you're carrying for them? Because they're unwilling to grieve right now. And so we often say, love people and use things. But what about love people and carry things because the opposite never works?

• 18:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You're carrying these people and they love these things that you are carrying for them. So in a way, you're actually carrying them by carrying their things. Chris, I'd love to send you a copy of Emotional Clutter. It's now as a beautiful hardcover, or you can check it out as an audiobook up on Audible. We'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. Emotional Clutter, I think will help you sort through some of these emotions that you are dealing with. I can definitely hear it in your voice. Before we get back to our callers, TK, let's unearth the question of the week, this week.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Wait, wait, before you do, I don't want to delete this, but I just want to, because I know you laughed and I know you and I get it. That whole part, I'm not black. I know people get super sensitive about that kind of stuff. For, for us, that's a compliment. We've talked about how there are certain things you say as a brother, it just come off as cool. Yeah. It just come off as cool. And, and, and I've had a lot of my white friends say this kind of stuff where they're like, how do I say no to this? It's like, nah, man, I ain't playing that. And they'd be like, okay, but I, I can't say that. It's like, the power literally comes from phrasing it exactly that way. And I'm like, I guess that's true. I probably couldn't say no if I had to be like, no, thank you.

• 19:46Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's like me going to Walker Kessler and asking him how to dunk a basketball. He's like, well, you just jump up and dunk it. It's like, okay. That's not really helpful.

• 20:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, let's look at the question of the week this week. What's one item in your home you wish would disappear? Now, Chris had a bunch of things that she wished would disappear. But the question we asked to our patrons over in the Patreon community chat is, what's one item in your home you wish would disappear? Andrew said, I wish my Peloton that is now collecting dust in the corner of my office would disappear. TK, what can you tell me about these kinds of aspirational purchases, like a Peloton?

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Man, I don't even know what a Peloton is.

• 20:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's a, it's a exercise bike. Okay. Yeah, it's a, it's a exercise bike that requires like a $40 monthly subscription as well. So that you're taking these, all these classes and stuff. Okay. So we, we buy these things aspirationally. So think of like, you buy a bunch of gym equipment. Back in the day, it was like a Bowflex. Remember those commercials and people would spend all of this money buying this thing? And then it turns into this thing that, as Andrew points out, is just collecting dust in the corner of his office.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think when we make aspirational purchases, we're just trying to help ourselves out and invest in our future in the best that we know how, in the best way we know how. You can do this with, with food, like I'm, I'm gonna stock the fridge up with, with more fruits and vegetables, whatever. Because you know that there's some way you want to be. And you're, you're trying to make it more accessible to you, hoping that will help. And the fact that you may not follow through on those aspirations just means that whatever it is that's holding you back is a little bit deeper than a problem with access.

• 21:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, you know, I have this whole, this comment hits home for me from Andrew because, well, believe it or not, I have this whole bit about getting rid of my Peloton. I bought the big expensive Peloton and I was using it for a while and then, I won't give it away, I'm actually working it out during the tour that I'm doing, the How to Let Go tour. So if you want to hear my whole Peloton bit, head on out to Seattle, Vancouver, New York City this fall. You can grab your tickets over at theminimalists.com/tour. I've got this whole thing about my Peloton becoming the world's most expensive clothes hanger. Meredith said, I wish that the boxes that are still unpacked from our last move would disappear.

• 22:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We've been in this house since 2022. TK, what are our unopened boxes? Tell us about our dying dreams.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  The things that we refuse to look at or choose not to look at, they're usually things that we, we feel like we can't handle. And, and that could be because, you know, I'm too busy right now, or I don't have the mental capacity to make the hard decisions. Or I, I still need them, but if I look at them, I know that I'm gonna have to be forced to be true to myself about them in a way. And then I have to let them go before I'm not ready. And so unopened boxes, you know, is, is sort of a, a representation of like, things that I don't think I am ready to handle.

• 23:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We've done hundreds of live events and I would say at the vast majority of them, I'm not gonna say all of them, but at the majority of them, I talked to people. And the, the commonality among them is almost everyone seems to have a box that is still unopened from their last move.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  That's something.

• 23:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so Meredith, she moved in 2022, but I've talked to people who have boxes from the eighties, nineties, seventies sometimes, that have been unopened for years or even decades. And I think part of that is, as you said, I'm too busy to deal with this right now. Part of that is I've built it up that it's going to be so big to deal with this. And dealing with it might literally take two minutes. You might just throw the whole thing out. Your house is a landfill or you're putting it in an actual landfill. Or you can try to find a way to donate some of these things for sure. But at some point, you have to realize I'm never going to access this ever again. These are dead things and these are clutter coffins in my attic or under my bed.

• 24:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I'm treating my house like a mausoleum of dead stuff. And when I do that, I'm not honoring the things from the past. I'm actually degrading my present by dragging them forward. Imagine my mom died, or my dad died, or my brother died, or one of my friends died that I grew up with. Imagine if I like just kept their body under my bed and embalmed them. And that's kind of what it feels like with our stuff. It's embalmed in these boxes. And I think these unopened boxes, they, they tell us that I'm currently unwilling to prioritize the grief.

• 24:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I'm unwilling, I'm unwilling to prioritize the letting go because of the grief that's associated with it. But grief is a part of letting go. It's why we cry sometimes. Crying is, is a form of letting go. It's the physical expression of, of grief. Susan said, I wish my husband's motorcycle would disappear from the garage.

• 25:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, I thought she was gonna say because it's unsafe and I'm really worried about him. And I totally get that, but I loved what she said. She said, he never rides it anymore unless I suggest that it would love a new home.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  So does that mean he gets on, she's like, you know what? You need to get rid of this thing. Oh, no, no, I'm about to ride it right now.

• 25:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I was just getting ready to hop on it.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Well, you know what you gotta do? Just suggest a new home every week.

• 25:30Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, yeah. That'll work. Every morning you're like, wow, that motorcycle, he's just riding it around. It's also a great way to get him out of the house, right? It brings me to my, my minimal maxim this week. The kindest thing you can give someone is a deadline. Now, there are really unkind ways to give someone a deadline. I want to be clear about that. What would be a kind way to give someone a deadline, TK?

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Ooh, well, give them a deadline in a way to where they feel like they have some options. They feel like they have some agency. So that at the end of the day, it's not you making them do something, but them choosing to prioritize one option over the other. So for instance, hey, if, you know, my dad would often do this with certain things, but like, I bought that because you guys begged me to, you know, get it.

• 26:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yep.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  So I either want to see that thing being used or it's going. Now, now at that point, if it goes, we don't get to complain and be like, oh, he made us get rid of it. He didn't make us get rid of it. He gave us two options. You know, use the thing that you begged me to buy or be at peace with letting it go. And I, and I think it's something like that. It sounds like the problem isn't that he never uses it. I mean, the problem isn't that it's, it's there, but that he never uses it unless it's a reaction to you. So maybe we can have a conversation where we talk about what it might look like to use it.

• 26:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, and we might also talk about, about what would compel him enough to use it more frequently? Because clearly, as soon as you bring it up, it goes from the back of his mind to the front of his mind. And think, oh, yeah, you know what? I actually really enjoy riding that thing. Why don't I ride it more frequently? Oh, yeah, so that's not even a deadline at all. I think deadlines are kind because it, it helps form an agreement. If you hand someone a deadline as an expectation, I expect you to get rid of this by the end of the month.

• 27:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We can do that to our kids sometimes, but even then, there's a kinder way to handle that. I'm thinking about my, my own daughter. Ella, she always, like every day, takes her a little backpack and just drops it on the floor in a little hallway that goes into her bedroom. I say hallway, it's like a little nook. And so I'm always tripping over it or it's just a total eyesore. And for the longest time, I would say, Ella, please pick up your bag. Ella, please pick up your bag, every day. And I get she doesn't, she's not thinking about it, right? But part of the, of, part of the experience here is I need to give her a better place to store it.

• 28:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And, and as soon as I realized that, it was like, oh, yeah, there, there needs to be an easy place for her to put this. Because right now, she doesn't have a, a compelling enough reason other than a punishment. I'm not going to, you're grounded for a week because your bag's on the floor. It's instead trying to work with her to understand that you need to start putting it up. Let me help you figure out what it looks like to put that bag up. And so there's a kind way to set a deadline. And a deadline is an agreement with someone else. That's the kind way to do it. If I expect you to do this by this deadline, that's the unkind way to handle it.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, let your deadline be an expression of your lifeline. Before you throw out a deadline, throw out a lifeline. What, what if instead of leading the discussion with, how can I help my lover? How can I help my family member get rid of their clutter? I led with, how can I help my lover? How can I help my family member redeem the relationship to this thing that once gave them a sense of purpose, but has now become clutter? Because they're stuck in a place of procrastination. And, and, and if we lead with that, it's like, this motorcycle that's always in my way that my husband never rides? I can, I can put pressure on him to get rid of it, but what if I can inspire him to get back on it? This piano that's here in the middle of the house or this keyboard that's taking up space that my kid said he really wanted to use but never uses and it's frustrating me?

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can get rid of it and that solves my problem. But what if I can inspire him to get back to planning? How can I help my lover not just get rid of their things, but actually redeem their things?

• 29:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, and that raises the tide of joy throughout the entire household. Because we feel compersion for others. So if you're experiencing joy, I experienced joy. It becomes contagious. When you see someone laughing, you don't even know what they're laughing about, but they're laughing so hard, you start laughing. It's contagious. Joy is contagious. One more real quick. Kara said, does a garage count as one item? Yes, or you can count it as a million items, Kara, if you let it go. If you're playing the minimalism game and you got rid of the whole garage and there's a million items in there, well, good for you. How about you listeners? What's one item in your home you wish would disappear? Also, if you have any thoughts for Chris, when Chris is dealing with her family and letting go of those things,

• 30:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  let us know in the comments or you can send a voice memo to [email protected]. All right, TK, you already got my minimal maxim, but I see you over there oozing wisdom. Or is that ketchup?

• 30:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Whatever it is, our listeners can find this episode's maxims in the show notes at theminimists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalsmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes straight to your inbox for free every Monday, including a bunch of new maxims every week. No spam, no junk, no ads. It's the simple newsletter. You can sign up to it for free at theminimists.com. All right, give me something pithy, TK. What's one item in your home you wish would disappear?

• 31:21Speaker 02

  If I wanted it to disappear, brother, it wouldn't be here. That could be a really great line for like a horror movie or action film where I look at somebody and say, if I wanted you to disappear, you wouldn't be here.

• 31:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, that sounds like something Marlo Stanfield would say in The Wire. I don't know if you ever watched The Wire, but he is the most terrifying psychopath in TV history, in my opinion.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Aw, man.

• 31:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And, and he's strangely likable for it.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 31:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I could see him saying that. He's got that famous scene. He's in the grocery store and he's like the, the kingpin in West Baltimore. And he walks into the convenience store and he's buying some at the counter. He sees a security guard over there in the corner and he looks at the security guard and just grabs two suckers and puts them in his pocket in front of him. Just to show like, all right, who runs this? And he goes outside and the security guard goes, hey, man, I know who you are. I'm a man. You're a man, but I can't just let you disrespect me like that. And Marlo just looks at him. The guard goes, why, why are you looking at me like I ain't here? So, cause you're

• 32:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  not. And he goes, what do you mean? He goes, you want it to be one way, but it's the other way.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 32:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And that's, that, that, that sounds like a line that he would say, like, if I wanted you to disappear, you wouldn't be here.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  That's funny, man. You know, I, I looked at this question. I says, man, I don't have anything to which this applies. And my, my wife was in the room and I says, hey, I says, come listen to this question. How would you answer it? Maybe I can just give your answer. And she read it and she says, this sounds like a trap. This sounds like, this is a question that's setting somebody up to throw their spouse under the bus. And I said, well, go ahead, throw me under the bus because I need an answer for it. And she says, that makes no sense. It's, it's here because I want it. And I was like, I was like, that's what I was thinking. If I wanted it to disappear, it wouldn't be here. I, I

• 33:31Speaker 02

  think sometimes that seems to not be the case because we aren't appreciating how diverse we really are, how multi-dimensional we, we are. We can want something and not want something at the same time or, but in a different sense. And so whenever we feel like, oh, if I could, I would make that disappear. Well, you can, but you're choosing not to because there's a part of you that wants it, but there's also a part of you that doesn't want to make the choice.

• 33:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  There's a party that wants to make it disappear, but there's a part of you that doesn't want to have to make that choice to make it disappear. And what we have to figure out is what's the best way to move forward that honors the essence of both of those parts of you.

• 34:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  The truth is, there are a lot of things in my home that I would make disappear if I lived by myself. And I need to recognize that the cost of living with other people that I love and care about also means having things in our home that I otherwise wouldn't have. And it's not about wishing that those things would disappear.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But sometimes like my, my daughter's bag, I don't even want that to disappear. I just want it to disappear from its, its clutter, not because it is clutter, but it is contextual clutter. It gets in the way when you leave it there on the floor so I can trip over it. So sometimes it's just disappear from its current place and going to a place that it is not clutter. That's almost the end of page one. TK, we still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to. But first, real quick for our right here, right now segment, here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalist. So last week we brought Kat on to, Tom Kat. She was talking about her embodiment sessions. And I always want to go out of my way to recognize what people on our team are working

• 35:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  on with the minimalist or outside of the minimalist as well. And so a few weeks ago, we were out of the studio and we, so we recorded a remote podcast episode. Ryan Nicodemus joined us for that and almost everyone seemed to love it. I particularly liked this comment from Etta on Patreon. She said, I love these conversations when the three of you reunite and you were still able to maintain great audio quality, even though it was remote. And I agree, and so did several other people. Victoria said, I could have listened to this for 10 hours.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 35:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love that. Wow. Well, all credit goes to Audio Ben. If anyone listening to this has a podcast or is thinking about starting a podcast or needs any mixing or engineering needs for any audio project, whether that's an audiobook or for a podcast or music, if you're a musician, you want someone to engineer and mix your songs, you can look up Audio Ben. It's BenjaminHallAudio.com. Benjamin Hall, H U L L, Audio.com. BenjaminHallAudio.com. We'll throw a link to his website in the show notes. Thanks for keeping our show sounding so damn good, Audio Ben. Bravo. All right. We still have a whole lot more to talk about, but first let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 36:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all. That's the first like 26% of episode 551. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two hour maximal episode. The link is in the description. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire, Jeff and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Millburn. If you leave here with just one message, let it be this. Love people and use things because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Peace.