Stanford Psychologist: 7 Small Things That Make a Huge Difference in How You Feel

You don’t have to wait for your life to get easier to start enjoying it. Today, Mel sits down with Dr. Kelly McGonigal, a renowned health psychologist, award-winning Stanford University lecturer, and bestselling author whose work focuses on stress, resilience, and joy. She’s here to show you how to feel more alive again by making 7 small shifts. And you already have everything you need to get started. Dr. McGonigal will walk you through your body and brain’s built-in resources for joy, connection, hope, and courage, and show you how to put them to work. Your muscles, for example, are like a pharmacy inside your body, releasing “hope molecules” when you move. And you don’t have to crush a workout to get started. A walk with your dog or a little dancing in your kitchen counts. One of Dr. McGonigal’s biggest insights: You need joy precisely because life can be hard. Those moments of laughter, closeness, and pleasure give you reasons to keep going, and you can learn how to create more of them. And you can practice these mood-boosting shifts on your next walk, between errands, or while spending time with someone you love. You’ll learn: –What joy really does for you and why your brain needs it –How your muscles can make hope – seriously –How to make stress your friend and use it to your advantage –How to use a favorite song to shift your mood and get yourself going –How to turn a meaningful memory into courage you can use today –How to train your attention to notice more of the good around you –3 research-backed sources of hope you can tap into when you need a lift You have not lost your ability to feel joy. And you don’t have to wait for it to find you. You’ll leave this conversation with small things you can do today to feel more like yourself, connect with people, and get more enjoyment out of the life you’re living. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked this episode, listen to this one next: How to Stop Negative Thoughts & Reset Your Mind for Positive Thinking. Mel also wants to tell you: Try the 23g protein shot I drink every single morning Join 2 million readers loving my weekly newsletter - full of tips, tools, and inspiration The Let Them Theory: read the book everyone’s talking about Watch the episodes on YouTube Connect with me on Instagram Follow the show’s Instagram for clips, behind the scenes, and more Find some daily positivity on my TikTok Want zero ads? Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-free Disclaimer

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:08Mel Robbins?

  I am so excited about the conversation today because we're going to talk about how you can feel like yourself again. Get your spark back and bring more joy into your life, even if things are really hard right now. And we're going to do it with this extraordinary woman. Her name is Dr. Kelly McGonigal. I have been trying to get her on the podcast for years. She's one of the world's leading experts in stress resilience, joy. She's been at Stanford University as a psychologist and lecturer for over 20 years. And what she's going to teach you today, it is simple. It's backed by science. She has such an important message to share with you. You can enjoy your life right now, for real. She wants you to know

• 0:48Mel Robbins?

  that a good life isn't perfect. And joy is how you navigate those moments in between, periods that are challenging and periods that are amazing. Joy is how you have a day that has a sunrise and a funeral. It's how you have a breakdown and a belly laugh. You can go to the hospital and also enjoy the beach. You don't have to overhaul your life. You're going to begin exactly where you are in the mess. And you're going to learn how to tap into the simple joys to help you get through your life and start enjoying it now. And that's going to feel amazing.

• 1:28Mel Robbins?

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• 2:09Mel Robbins?

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• 2:54Mel Robbins?

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• 3:16Mel Robbins?

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• 4:04Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I'm so excited that you're here today. It's an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're new, or somebody shared this with you, I just want to personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Today, you and I are learning how to feel like yourself again, the science of getting your spark back with the extraordinary Dr. Kelly McGonigal. Dr. McGonigal is a world-renowned health psychologist and award-winning lecturer at Stanford University, where she earned her PhD and has been working for over 20 years. She co-created Stanford's Compassion Cultivation Training through the Stanford Center for Compassion and Altruism. And her TED Talk about stress is one of the most popular TED Talks of all

• 4:49Mel Robbins?

  time. She's a bestselling author of three books, and today she's going to help you and me get our spark back. Dr. Kelly McGonigal, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's great to be here.

• 4:59Mel Robbins?

  I'd love for you to start by just setting the record straight about what we're going to talk about and how the person who's here with us is going to feel when they're done and how their life might change. Because you hear the word joy and you think, oh, my gosh, is this a to-do list for being happy? But what are we going to talk about, based on your research, about how to feel like yourself again and to use this science of joy to do that?

• 5:22Speaker 01

  My core hope is that when you wake up in the morning, you want to be alive, you're happy to be alive, you feel like you have things to look forward to, you know that what you do matters, that who you are matters, that your existence in the world is a good thing, and that no matter what challenges you're facing, that you can handle them. And even in those challenges, it's possible to laugh, it's possible to feel close to others, it's possible to have things to look forward to, it's possible to do things every day that make life better for yourself, or that make the world better. Psychologists sometimes

• 6:05Speaker 01

  use this term existential courage. And because that's what I really hope comes out of this conversation, is that you feel more courageous to create a life of meaning and a stronger capacity to appreciate not just what's good in your life, but also what's good in you, and what's good in others, and what's good in the world.

• 6:26Mel Robbins?

  My favorite thing that you just said was this ability to appreciate not just what's good in your life, but what's good in you.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:37Mel Robbins?

  Can you expand on that?

• 6:40Speaker 01

  I think like everything that I do, I'm trying to be an antidote to despair. And there's a particular type of despair that people are comfortable talking about, which is looking out at the world and feeling like the world is falling apart. There's so much wrong with the state of the world, and other people are so disappointing. And I think people have a harder time admitting or recognizing. Sometimes we wonder what's good about us, whether what we do makes a difference, if our existence, you know, has a reason, if other people care, or even know that we're here. And I think that when we are better able to recognize and trust the better parts of ourselves, or even just the parts about ourselves that bring us joy, and when we're comfortable sharing that with the world,

• 7:25Speaker 01

  it's a really, it's a brave act, and it's a transformative act.

• 7:30Mel Robbins?

  I had this moment, Oprah calls it a lightbulb aha moment, when you were talking, because I've never heard anybody so simply and profoundly explain that there are two types of despair and discouragement that you experience in life. I love that you have just aimed our focus at something that's hard to talk about, which is the despair quietly, and the discouragement that we feel, often alone, as we wander, as we lie awake at night. And I suppose that where we're going is, and I know where we're going, because

• 8:11Mel Robbins?

  I've read your next blockbuster bestseller, and I love your research and your work, is that you're going to shine a light on the interior life that you have. Dr. McGonigal, what is the definition of joy?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Let me start by something that is very easy for most people to understand. I'm going to give you the opposite of joy first.

• 8:27Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  I've learned through experience to walk my way into joy. So you know the feeling when you get bad news, or something goes wrong, or someone says something that hurts you, and immediately it's like a punch to the stomach? Your heart sinks. You feel heavier. You feel more pessimistic. You just immediately feel worse about yourself or worse about life. And it often happens in a flash. But it can linger. It has this residue. So joy is the opposite of that. It's when something goes right, or you notice something wonderful, or something good happens, or someone says something nice, and you immediately, your heart lifts, you feel lighter, your gut is telling you this is a moment that matters.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  You feel like you can breathe. And no matter how small, small or big the moment is, you have more positive outlook, you feel better about yourself and better about life. That's joy. And I've asked thousands of people to tell me, like, what's something that brought you joy in the last 24 hours? And also, people have published research from all over the world. It's so consistent what brings people joy. And I think sometimes knowing what the categories are also helps people understand what I'm talking about.

• 9:38Mel Robbins?

  Yeah. What are the categories?

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Number one is feeling connected or close to someone. And one of the easiest examples of that is people will tell me about a moment when they laughed with someone. It's just in that moment, it's a biological reality. You are connected, you feel close to someone. The number two... Is when you do something that makes you feel good about yourself and who you are. It could be that you made progress on a goal and you got good news. Or it could be that you did something that you've been putting off. Or it could be you did something that's aligned with your values. It could be you helped someone. Or someone tells you that you did something that made things better. And then we have the third category is noticing something wonderful or beautiful in the world. It's often nature. It's amazing how many joy reports I get from people.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  I heard a bird sing. I should be like, why? Why are there so many birds in these joy reports? But people in that moment feel connected to the good in life itself. And then the next biggest category is moments where you are enjoying something that you love, whether it's an activity or that thing that you love beyond reason. Or you're just in the moment, doing something you enjoy. And you're able to feel in that moment or be in that moment.

• 10:53Mel Robbins?

  Can you put this into context for why this truly does matter? And it's critical for your life and your meaning in your life?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, people sometimes hear the word joy and they think that what we're talking about is that like moment when everything in your life is perfect. No problems, no pain, nothing you're worried about. And we think that joy is the emotional reward you get when everything aligns in your life and in the world. And if that isn't true, it's irresponsible, or it's foolish, or it's naive, or it's actually impossible to feel anything that we would call joy. The place that I often think about to start with joy is in that internal, like close to home place that even when the world is in chaos, your full humanity is still available to you. And I know this is true because when I teach classes about joy,

• 11:46Speaker 01

  I often have people joining from war zones who have lost loved ones in war and are being bombed in the middle. And they're taking an online class. And what they tell, it's so funny because I will often have some students write me and be like, isn't it irresponsible or actually like impossible to be talking about joy right now? When there's a war going on? And then someone living in that war will send a message that I share with the class that says, this is why we need joy. Because life is so uncontrollable and so many terrible things are happening. And they're experiencing this thing that is true for all of us. That even in that context, there's a part of you who can still find things to laugh about. There's a part of you who wants to connect with others and is absolutely capable of it.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  There is a part of you who is capable of noticing beauty in the world and putting beauty in the world. That you don't need to wait for external circumstances to align, to experience those parts of yourself.

• 12:42Mel Robbins?

  Wait a minute, I just saw something. And I want to give this back to you to see if I'm tracking. So if you have moments in life where there's external forces that cause you to feel despair. And that then makes you feel despair internally. When it comes to the positive experiences of joy, of love, of beauty, those things are external in your life, whether it's weddings, or puppies, or sunsets, or dancing, you know, at a concert with your friends to your favorite band. And of course, that impacts how you feel internally. I just understood why

• 13:26Mel Robbins?

  the science of joy matters so much. Because if the signaling from the world is overwhelmingly negative, you're going to feel internally so heavy and negative. And in those moments, tapping into signals that they're still good, there's still happiness, that there's still a reason to move forward, that there's still something you can do. That is what balances you out when life gets very heavy, when the world is very heavy. This isn't like jazz hands and happiness and, you know, something on the surface. This is deep within us. Is that what you're saying?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  The core function of joy is to make you want to be alive. Joy would not exist if life were not hard. We wouldn't need it, actually. Joy is a particular type of uplift that pulls you up from when you're feeling stuck, or sad, or hopeless. And that is why you have the capacity to be uplifted by things that are good. It's why you have the capacity in a moment when you're laughing with someone else and your brain starts to synchronize and you're, you feel connected to someone. Your body and brain are wired to have that moment of closeness because the reality is that it's hard to be human.

• 14:43Mel Robbins?

  And you're here to remind us

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:45Mel Robbins?

  that we have wiring in our bodies, brains, and resources in us to tap into this fundamental need. You said the core function of joy

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:56Mel Robbins?

  is to make you want to live, to push through, to keep going, to like evolve and grow. And that's a beautiful way to think about this.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:05Mel Robbins?

  It's a survival instinct. I've never heard anybody say that. But it makes sense. Because like if there's too much negative input, of course, you're going to give up.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  So I often collect these joy reports where I just ask people what's something recent that brought you joy. And then I collect some of the ones that I think would surprise people. And some of the ones that really stood out to me that I received recently. One was taking care of a spouse who was going through chemotherapy. And it was messy and gross. And she said, I think I could do this for the rest of my life because I just, I feel so much love and like, like what I'm doing matters. And then another was a student who talked about being in a bomb shelter and talking with neighbors. And saying that he had never felt so close to other human beings as he had in that moment. And that it was one of the most joyful experiences of his life. Nobody wants that experience.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Nobody would describe that as a happy moment or a positive moment. But things, we have this capacity. And actually, all of those were examples of the most common source of joy, which is to feel close or connected to others. And also to feel like who you are matters.

• 16:18Mel Robbins?

  Those are beautiful examples. And it also makes your definition of joy, which is the core function is to make you want to live. Really powerful. I want to read you some of the things that listeners in the 194 countries that watch and listen to this show wrote in about. And maybe as you're watching right now, or you're taking Dr. McGonigal and I on a walk, or in the car, or you have us with you as you're busy working. Maybe you feel some of these things. Maybe people in your life feel these things. I don't feel like myself. Nothing excites me. I feel flat.

• 16:58Mel Robbins?

  I am always waiting for something bad to happen. I'm tired of feeling exhausted all the time. When you hear that, what do you hear?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  I hear something that's very easy to relate to. It's hard to be human. And I, the first thing I want to say is it makes a lot of sense to feel that way as a response to life. And also, it's not a fixed, permanent state. Your brain is hardwired to find meaning or make meaning. Your nervous system is primed to connect with people. And even at the level of your muscles, your muscles can manufacture and secrete something called hope molecules that when you just literally engage with life using your body, that travel through your bloodstream to your brain and act like an antidepressant. There are so many resources we have, you know?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  And we have the will to connect, the will to find meaning, the will to celebrate, the will to experience pleasure, even in dark moments. And these are parts of yourself that you can learn to harness.

• 18:10Mel Robbins?

  Now, is the research that you're about to share with us, is that the pathway to making the hard moments day to day easier?

• 18:17Speaker 01

  The research that I focus on is the resources you already have because you're a human being.

• 18:21Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  And part of that's going to be your body. Part of it's going to be your brain. Part of it is your attention, which is a resource that we can use and train. Part of it's going to be instincts that we can harness. Having agency is the opposite of feeling like there's nothing you can do to change a situation, to make things better, to get closer to what you want, to help people you care about. Since there's nothing I can do, I don't see any way forward or out. And I think the most beautiful thing about human nature is that some part of us wants to survive. And to survive, we need things like meaning and hope and connection. And so we do have all of these resources.

• 19:05Mel Robbins?

  So the good news is, Dr. McGonigal, as I was listening to you, there were seven things that you have right in front of you that you have the ability, and you're going to teach us how, to use as free resources to take control of where you are and to start feeling more like yourself and better.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  And to help the people in your life feel that way, too.

• 19:26Mel Robbins?

  Amazing. You said the body, the brain, your attention, instinct, emotions, choices, relationships. That's seven things. And I think that's such a hopeful, an amazing place to begin. So the first resource that we have is our body.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Two ways I think about the body. I mean, one is you can literally place your hands on your body. You're breathing already, right? You can feel that.

• 19:50Mel Robbins?

  I put my hands on my heart. So even if you have a steering wheel in one hand, you can put the other hand on your heart. Yeah, I feel I'm breathing.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  You're already breathing. That's your connection to life. Your body is working so hard to support you. Like, that could be a very simple way of just connecting to this idea that your body is a resource and you are already here and you have that ability to engage with life.

• 20:15Mel Robbins?

  So much of your work is around the research related to stress. And you have one of the most popular TED Talks of all time on the science of stress. And you think that we all completely misunderstand stress. So, Dr. McGonigal, what do people misunderstand about stress?

• 20:33Speaker 01

  The number one thing people misunderstand about stress is when they feel stressed, they think it is their brain and their body betraying them. And that the most important thing they can do in that moment is to try to feel less stressed. The reality is, stress, what you experience as stress is your brain and your body trying to help you in a moment that matters. And every symptom of stress we don't like is your body and brain trying to do something that is useful. So feeling your heart racing.

• 21:04Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Or sometimes we feel like our blood pressure rising. That is the sign that, two things. Your body is trying to give you energy, right? That's literally, that's all that is. Your heart is possibly pounding faster or it's contracting out more blood with every pump so that you have the energy you need to deal with whatever matters to you. But also, what's really fascinating is, in moments of heightened stress, your brain actually like prioritizes sensory information from your heart. It can actually sense your heart more. So even if your heart wasn't pounding faster, you might feel your heart more clearly. And that's a sign that your brain is actually trying to connect you to your heart. To, almost like metaphorically, like,

• 21:49Speaker 01

  to help you think about what you care about, to think about who and what matters most. So, you know, what I would say is, even just that first symptom, when you feel your heart racing, the first thing you can do is think, okay, thank you, body, for trying to give me energy. I have the ability. That means some part of me believes I can do something here. It's not hopeless, or I'm not trapped. And then, also, thank you, brain, for telling me, trying to bring me back to my heart. Because in a moment of stress, there are a lot of things we can do to cope. But one of the best things you can do to cope is to think about who or what matters most to you, what you care about. And in this situation, what's the opportunity that I have to do something that reflects who or what I care about most?

• 22:32Mel Robbins?

  Dr. McGonigal, you talked about something called a hope molecule. What is a hope molecule?

• 22:38Speaker 01

  I'm so glad you asked. This is one of my favorite scientific findings I've ever come across. You know, you have muscles throughout your body. And if you'd asked scientists a couple decades ago, what are your muscles for? They would have said, well, to move your bones around, right? To stabilize your skeleton. But now we know that your muscles actually are like a pharmacy. And they are a part of your body that manufactures all of these chemicals that are good for you. Your muscles can manufacture chemicals that fight cancer cells, that boost your immune system, that are good for your heart, that regulate your blood sugar, that help you build strength. And also, they release chemicals that travel to your brain and work to help you recover from stress, that make you more resilient, that boost motivation,

• 23:22Speaker 01

  again, that are essentially functioning like antidepressant molecules. And they are released from your muscles when you use them. Muscle contraction pushes these hope molecules into your bloodstream where they can then course through your body and arrive at your brain, which, you know, you might actually need those molecules. Why I love this? We're so used to hearing scientific findings that are like, here's how your body can go wrong. Here's how your body can betray you. Here are all the things you need to worry about. We almost never get the opportunity to experience our own physical being as a resource, as something we can trust rather than something we have to fix. And so, I love this idea that by going for a walk,

• 24:06Speaker 01

  by lifting heavy things around your house, by having a dance party in your living room, whatever you want to do to use your body, every time you use your body to engage with life, you're actually accessing this pharmacy that wants to give you a little more courage, a little more resilience, a little more hope. This research comes out of the field of exercise science. So sometimes people think, well, that means I have to go to the gym or I have to do the most strenuous workout that I can imagine. But that's not how your body and brain think about it. Your body just thinks, oh, I'm engaged with life. So I better give all my system something that's going to help me thrive. And when you are less active, your body gives you less of this resource.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  So going from nothing to anything is the biggest step you can take. And then, really, I mean, look, we could sit here and wave at each other and be releasing.

• 25:00Mel Robbins?

  It's true. I'm like waving right now and I feel like my body shift. Like, if you've ever had an experience where you're at a wedding, and it's very interesting because at really great weddings, the band just plays a banger out of the gate and you've got somebody pulling people on, but.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  That would be me, by the way. I'd be the one being like, you, come here.

• 25:21Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, I'm like that too. I probably surprises no one that I drag my poor husband, Christopher Robbins, who is deep in conversation, right out onto the dance floor. But we've also had the experience where you're the one on the edge going, do I join? The second you step on the floor and like just move your shoulders, you feel different.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  You get pulled into this like force field.

• 25:42Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Of connection and joy. And you have to let yourself be pulled in. With almost anything that is good for you, and I don't mean in like the moral way.

• 25:51Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  But in like, you actually will feel better if you do it.

• 25:53Mel Robbins?

  Uh huh.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Almost everyone feels resistance beforehand. You always are going to feel like you have less energy or you're always going to feel more socially anxious and withdrawn because you haven't done the thing yet that's going to help you feel less self-conscious and connected to others. You haven't done the thing yet that's going to give you energy or help you feel braver. And so, I always tell people, when you get that clear signal that says, I don't know whether I can or should join in or I don't have the energy for this. But that is a real signal, but it's the opposite of how you're interpreting it. That is the signal that you need it and you need to draw on some kind of commitment to yourself rather than an in-the-moment feeling that says, I'm ready.

• 26:34Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Or I want to. And for me.

• 26:37Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  What I usually recommend to people.

• 26:39Mel Robbins?

  What do you do?

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Is add music. It is one of the simplest ways to change people's.

• 26:43Mel Robbins?

  Do you have a song you always go?

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Well, it depends on what I want. Right now, I'm really loving Madonna's Danceateria, which, you know, it's a fabulous song. One of the lyrics is about how everybody here is a work of art, which is just a lovely idea. But I like music that I can dance to. But we know that when you listen to a song that you love, it is the fastest way to get a burst of dopamine that gives you more motivation and optimism, releases endorphins and endocannabinoids that make you feel better. It literally, when neuroscientists want to study joy in the brain, the easiest way to do it is to play a song that people love, they say they love. And the same thing if you want people to feel less pain. If someone is going through something painful, like a medical procedure, and you want them to feel less pain, the easiest way to do it

• 27:29Speaker 01

  is to have them listen to music they love. It's such a powerful intervention. And so, you put on a song that you love and then you do anything that is the opposite of lying down or sitting down if you're physically capable of it.

• 27:40Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  And if you aren't, then just listening to the song activates the part of the brain that thinks it's moving anyways, so you get the benefit. But it's, you know, it's the feel better effect. And there's no dose too small. The smallest studies that I've found have been like two to three minutes. That's a pretty achievable dose.

• 27:55Mel Robbins?

  That's one song.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's less, I mean, well, now TikTok era, that is about one song.

• 27:59Mel Robbins?

  Wow, that's pretty, I love that. Okay. My favorite thing, and I notice this is what my family and my colleagues do, is when I get particularly down or stressed or in a bad mood, they're like, let's take a walk.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:13Mel Robbins?

  Mel, come on, let's move, let's like take a walk because I'm not going for a run right now. We don't have time. Walking down the driveway and back up, I'm a different spouse.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:22Mel Robbins?

  I'm a different mother. I am a different Mel Robbins. Walking around the block here by our studios, I come back feeling like different.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:32Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Okay. And it's for some of the reasons we've talked about. I mean, first of all, you've got those hope molecules going. But you're also creating a state change. When we are physically active, our brain reads that as a signal that you're moving forward, that there are steps you can take. I mean, it's like, it's so fascinating. Movement is such a great metaphor and our brain just like takes it literally. You can move forward. There are steps you can take. You can breathe, right? It's the things that you do with your body. You can do hard things. There's reasons to celebrate. Go move with somebody else. Your brain understands you're not alone. There's something, movement is so interesting. I guess it's just because it's how humans evolved and it's how we exist in bodies. But our bodies really reward us for acknowledging that.

• 29:18Mel Robbins?

  Well, I think if you even just ask yourself, if you're feeling not like yourself and disconnected and flat, have you gotten out of your chair?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:26Mel Robbins?

  Like simply just standing up. Okay, I'm standing up now. I'm like kind of wiggling and now I'm sitting back down and I feel just a little bit like different. I'm kind of positioned in the chair different now.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  And if you can't get out of a chair, you move whatever parts of your body you still can.

• 29:41Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, lift your arms, do something. All right, so that's resource number one, body. I love this conversation because it's tactical and it's deep. And I want to take a quick moment and hit the pause. I need to give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words that's going to make them feel happy and it's going to make you feel happy if you share this episode with somebody that you care about. But Dr. McGonigal is just getting started. She has so many tools to share with you when we return, so stay with me.

• 30:12Mel Robbins?

  Sometimes the hardest part of starting something new is starting, especially when it comes to exercise. That first step out the front door, oh, that's a big one. So it helps when you're wearing shoes that make it feel easier. That's why I want to tell you about our sponsor, Ultra. Their shoes are designed to make your first step and every step more comfortable. The secret is in the Ultra Fit, which has more room for your toes. And you get comfort, balance, and strength all in one. So you can move more naturally as you run, walk, or train. Whether you're just getting started or already logging serious miles, Ultra Shoes are designed to move with you stride after stride. Shop now at ultrarunning.com and use code MEL10 for 10% off at checkout.

• 30:57Mel Robbins?

  And if you want even more savings and you've got an HSA or FSA account, you can use those pre-tax dollars on Ultra Shoes through TruMed. Just head to truemed.com/ultra to check your eligibility, and it may save you an average of 30%. TruMed is for qualified customers. HSA, FSA, tax savings vary. Experience Ultra and stay out there at ultrarunning.com. That's A-L-T-R-A running.com. Are you getting enough omega-3s in your diet? Your heart, brain, and immune system all need omega-3s to function the way they're supposed to. Now, this is backed by tens of thousands of studies.

• 31:40Mel Robbins?

  And yet, over 80% of Americans are not getting enough omega-3s from food alone. That's why I want to tell you about Nordic Naturals. This is not your typical fish oil. They use high-quality, sustainably sourced ingredients. They test everything for purity and freshness. And get this, it actually tastes good. No gross aftertaste. And the worst, no fishy burps. I hate those. That's why Nordic Naturals is the number one selling omega-3 brand. Use promo code MEL for 15% off your next order at Nordic.com and discover the power of omega-3 with Nordic Naturals. Supplements are not evaluated by the FDA

• 32:25Mel Robbins?

  and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent diseases. When it comes to investing, or really anything, don't you think it's important to choose a company that you can trust? One where you have the freedom to do things your way with confidence? Because some days, you might want a little more control and flexibility. And other times, you may need a specialist in your corner to help out. Well, with Schwab, you get all that and more all in one place. Schwab has everything from self-directed investing when you're thinking, hey, I got this, all the way to full-service wealth management when you're like, you know what? I'm going to need to get some help. That includes planning for big goals too, like college, buying a house, retirement planning, and more. Because if you're going to do this whole money thing,

• 33:09Mel Robbins?

  you might as well choose a firm that lets you do it your way, right? Visit schwab.com to learn more. That's S-C-H-W-A-B.com. One of the things I'm most proud of here at the Mel Robbins Podcast is that we're constantly growing and hiring new amazing people to join the team. So let me introduce you to our new producer, Matt. Matt, you just moved to Boston, joined our team, furnished your new apartment with our sponsor, Wayfair. Be honest, how empty was this place when you got the keys?

• 33:39Speaker 02

  It was pretty sad, like air mattress on the floor, eating takeout in a lawn chair, sad.

• 33:44Mel Robbins?

  So where did you even start?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Went straight to Wayfair because I needed everything. Bed frame, couch, area rug, desk, you name it.

• 33:51Mel Robbins?

  How did Wayfair help you feel at home?

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Once I laid out the rug and assembled the couch, I was like, all right, this is home now.

• 33:59Mel Robbins?

  Well, there you have it. More than 20 million verified five-star reviews on Wayfair. Helps shoppers buy with confidence. Plus, Wayfair Rewards members get 5% back on every purchase. Transform your space with pieces that hold up to real life. Join Wayfair Rewards today and get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.

• 34:29Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are here with Dr. Kelly McGonigal from Stanford University. She's one of the leading experts on the science of stress, resilience, and joy. And we're talking about how to feel like yourself again and the science of getting your spark back. Dr. McGonigal, what is another thing we can do with our brain? So the brain is also a resource that can help you plug into signals of joy and hope and meaning.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  You probably know that your brain monitors all sorts of processes in your body. It's measuring your heart rate, your breathing, your blood sugar, and it's trying to make sure everything's good enough to keep you alive. Well, your brain also monitors these other big existential questions like, does anybody care about me? Are there people I care about? Am I alone or am I connected? Does what I do matter? Is there beauty in the world? Is there a reason to smile? Are there things to look forward to? Are human beings good? There are all these things that we actually need to know to want to be alive. Our brain is monitoring things in our body that allow us to be alive. And our brain is monitoring things about our life that make us want to be alive.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  And in a crisis, when you're getting so much information about how hard things are, how bad things could get, and you're starting to feel emotions like overwhelm or maybe loneliness, fear, anger, you need signals that say there are good things in the world. What you do matters. You aren't alone. There are people you care about who care about you. You need experiences that tell you that as much as you need to eat and as much as you need to breathe. And so even the smallest uplifts, the smallest moments of joy, meaningful pleasure, connection, moments where you feel proud about yourself for something you did, even if it was small. It's so fascinating is, as a coping resource, the size doesn't matter.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  You could be in a situation where the suffering is huge and you experience an uplift that is objectively small, like noticing something beautiful out your window or someone said thanked you for something that you did.

• 36:37Mel Robbins?

  I'll give you one. When I had severe postpartum depression with my daughter Sawyer, I remember the day I actually got out of bed and took a shower.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:48Mel Robbins?

  And then I went back to bed. But that one moment of standing in that hot shower after like 11 days in that bed was the smallest moment that made me feel like, okay.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  And sometimes it's the sensory aspect of it, like the hot water on your skin. And maybe there's relief for like a moment. Or sometimes it's the meaning that you make out of it. Maybe some part of you was like, I couldn't do this yesterday or the day before, and I did it today.

• 37:17Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  And it's that meaning that your brain, I mean, the brain, when I said that like, one of the resources is that your brain is really good at making meaning, is your brain can have these generous interpretations of small moments or experiences. It's also like something you can train yourself to do. That hot shower wouldn't really have provided the same kind of hope if there wasn't some part of you that could put it in the context of you're not being able to do it yesterday. And that that means something. It means that change is possible, or it means that you are capable. The brain has all sorts of processes it can do. Visualization, imagination, memory, problem solving. So let's go with memory because we know that when you bring to mind a memory

• 38:01Speaker 01

  that either makes you feel good or makes you feel good about yourself. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a happy memory, but a memory that means something to you, that it gives you an instant increase in hope. It can bring up positive emotions like gratitude or enthusiasm. People have reported using memories when they can't be with people they love in order to remind themselves that there are people who care about them and that there are people who they can depend on. So you can use whatever treasure trove of memories you have. Remember something that makes you smile or makes you laugh or makes you feel close to someone. You can even like collect memories that become resources in that way.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  When I'm feeling like really scared and I don't want to do something, but a more important part of me does want to do it. It's just getting the other part that wants to be in control or avoid discomfort. Right? That part is a little too loud right now. I can bring up a memory of when I felt glad that I did this hard thing before. Or I can bring up a memory of someone who loves me, encouraging me, and telling me that I can do it. So let's make that our brain resource.

• 39:11Mel Robbins?

  I love that one. I think I have one that just came to mind. When I feel lonely and I feel discouraged or I feel like I don't know how I'm going to get through something, a memory I often come back to, it was 21 years ago. Mass General Brigham Hospital here in Boston. Our son, Oakley, was five days old and had been medevac to the hospital. And the docs in the suburban hospital had said, pack your bags. We don't know if he's going to make it. So we went home, packed our bags. And when we got to Mass General Brigham, it was like 11 o'clock at night and the door swung open to the NICU. And there were my friends, Robin and Lisa. And.

• 39:55Mel Robbins?

  I'll never forget it. They had both had babies prior in the NICU and they know how hard it is. And we didn't know if he was even alive at that point. He made it. But I come back to that. And the funny thing is, is that I don't even see them as much as I am dying to see them. You know, we're all in our late 50s and kids that have moved out of the house and everyone seems oddly busier at this stage in life. But it does remind me, even though they're not in front of me, of a moment when I wasn't alone and I did get through it.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  So, you know, it's funny, you're doing what is the next step when psychologists are trying to help people use memories as a resource. This one question that I learned from a psychologist at Take-A-Contractor, she asks her clients, what is an important thought or feeling this memory gives you? And so I was going to actually ask you, that memory came to mind, what's an important thought or feeling that gives you? And you mentioned that you aren't alone and that you can get through this.

• 40:54Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  And it also makes me want to be the kind of person

• 40:58Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  that shows up in those moments.

• 41:00Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  That's so great, right? So that's the next step with a lot of these things. I think sometimes people think the intention of what we're talking about is just to feel better, but often it's about helping us be the person we want to be in the moment too. And so, you know, just asking yourself that question gave you almost an orientation or a mission.

• 41:21Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my gosh. Brought all the feelings up. And I think that's kind of the point of what we're talking about, like particularly, a good life is not one where you're happy all the time. A good life is not one where everything is going well or perfectly, or everybody's healthy, or you're thriving. A good life includes these moments that are terrifying. And I think it's really important that when you recognize that even in those moments when your life feels horrible and scary, it can still be a beautiful life. And I really find it helpful personally, and I hope you do too, as you're listening or watching, this idea that there are signals that are scary and then there are signals that are hopeful.

• 42:04Mel Robbins?

  And at any moment, you can use these seven resources inside of you, whether they're not even here in the present. You can go back 21 years, like I just did in this conversation, and remind yourself that this moment too, you can get through and that there are people there to help and that you aren't going to be alone, even though you feel it right now. Let's talk about the next resource you have. Which is your attention?

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Attention. So there's way too much going on in any given moment for your brain to process. It's always making choices. And your brain is just discarding huge amounts of information about what's happening in this moment. And a lot of people like me have a negative attention bias where our brain has like made a decision, it's just a little more important to be vigilant for things that could go wrong or to pay attention to things that are not right, or, you know, maybe it's self-criticism or criticism outwards or anxiety. And you can just filter that by making a choice that in this moment, I want to bring my attention to something that's going right or to find a signal that is encouraging.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  So when I teach classes on joy, I'll often have people practice this by saying like, right now, I want you to look around this room, wherever you are, including your body, for something that reminds you of someone or something you love. You could do that. Or you could say, right now, I'm going to look around in this moment for evidence that somebody did something to make life better for me. Or I'm going to look around right now for something that I enjoy, that I'm having a positive response to. It really depends on your personality. You get to choose what you bring your attention to, but there will probably be certain aspects of reality that are true, that if you don't remind yourself to pay attention to them, it's so easy to have a kind of, like, you're just blind to them.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, if you're shopping, you're at the grocery store and you're looking for a type of cereal. If you know you're looking for that cereal, everything gets kind of blurry and then that cereal logo jumps out at you, right? It was already there, but you had to tell your brain, I'm trying to find that cereal now, so help me.

• 44:11Mel Robbins?

  I am curious, Dr. McGonigal, in a moment in your life, where either your personal life has so much external despair, or the world around you that you're living in has so much external despair. So there's so much grabbing at your attention that's real, that's there, does your negative bias in your mind become bigger?

• 44:41Speaker 01

  It depends. If you're asking me, yes.

• 44:44Mel Robbins?

  Okay. Well, I mean it because I would think like if all the input's negative, like this is like, you know, in periods of grief, you've just been laid off, you feel terrible about it, you're drowning, you've been broken up with, like, these moments that are crushing.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:59Mel Robbins?

  Or you read the headlines for too long and now you're like, I can't do anything else, and now I'm like super, and now all you see is negativity.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  So two things can happen.

• 45:06Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  One is your brain initially is going to think, this is reality, so it's going to be really important to pay attention to this, to stay on guard. I've got to keep track of all the things that I have to take care of. Two years ago, I think to this date, my father was diagnosed with a terminal untreatable cancer and my mom went through a health crisis that required a lot of help. And that was, I think, the most intense period of my life in terms of the chaos and the crisis unfolding all at once and requiring so much more from me than I was used to, just day to day, being able to function and take care of stuff and manage things going wrong and trying to prevent the worst possible outcomes.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  But there's this other instinct that often can float up and if it doesn't float up, you can pull it up, which is, I am not going to survive this if I do not have at least one moment today when I laugh. I am not going to survive this unless I have a moment where I let somebody touch me who cares about me. Or whatever it is for you that brings you a little moment of peace or joy or meaning. I remember I was taking a shower and I started getting texts and phone calls at the same time from family and healthcare providers and social workers. And I was in the shower, so I turned the water off and I sat on the floor of the shower for like three hours because I thought, I do not have time to dry myself off.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Like that sort of coping, but as things progressed, I realized that to survive, I needed to hold on to a few things that were renewing and sustaining. And part of it's attention, at the end of the day, looking back for one highlight. Instead of like my mind going to sleep, it would say, your job now is to think about everything that could go wrong tomorrow, everything you have to do tomorrow, and definitely don't put your phone, you know, to sleep because you're going to be getting texts, you know, from the three o'clock in the morning. But I could use my attention in that moment to think about one highlight of the day, which really functions well to also remind your brain that good things are possible or that you aren't alone, whatever that signal is that you need.

• 47:16Mel Robbins?

  I also appreciate that you just said, because as you're listening, you or somebody that you love may be in that moment where you're sitting in the shower for three hours, dealing.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:27Mel Robbins?

  Because you don't have time to take a shower. And I love that we keep framing this, like, the external signals come in that overwhelm you and super challenging moments, that's how life works, and you can dig up something when you realize, I'm drowning here and I need to laugh. Let's go to the next one. The next free resource is your instincts. Like, how do you use your instincts as a resource to find meaning, purpose, to support yourself?

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll give you. Here's my favorite instinct that is deeply underappreciated. Because we have instincts for courage, we have instincts to help others, those are lovely. But there is some part of you who loves something beyond reason. I don't know what you're a fan of, but there is something that probably you like more than is easy to explain.

• 48:13Mel Robbins?

  Fantasy fiction.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Okay, great.

• 48:15Mel Robbins?

  Listening, dramatic audio.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  So I think most people have something that they just love beyond reason, and often it's something that is accessible. And when life is difficult, we often think, I don't have time for this, or it's frivolous. Maybe the people in our lives don't really understand why it's so important or helpful to us. And if you just, you should trust what you love. It's a beautiful part of who you are, especially if you've had a relationship with it over time, if it's been there for you, that in moments when you need it, to let it be that thing that keeps you going or lifts you up.

• 48:48Mel Robbins?

  And I love it if it's a little weird.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:51Mel Robbins?

  Like, one of the reasons I love fantasy fiction is it allows me to escape. I'm living in a different world as I'm listening to this, like, movie acting out in my mind. I also love knitting. I love needlework. I love gardening. I like all those kinds of things. And so your instinct. That gets ignited by something that's just for you? That kind of reminds you, like, what does it do when you're sitting there doing needlepoint during a stressful time?

• 49:13Speaker 01

  It's so interesting, if you ask people about the things they love. I play this game with my students where I make a list of activities and knitting is one of them, playing board games is one of them. And then researchers have asked people, explain why this is so meaningful to you? And people say things like, in a moment when I was in such deep pain and agony, to be able to feel something that wasn't that, it was like love. I'm like, what activity do you think they were describing? That quote that I just paraphrased, that was about playing board games. This is why I said it's sort of without reason, that there will be activities that just when you do them, you feel better about yourself, better about life, you feel like you have a place to show up.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Whatever the reason is, they fulfill really important core human needs and you shouldn't have to justify that to anybody else. It's so easy to dismiss these things, but if, if they brought in a puppy right now or a kitten, can we? I asked, I said, come on, could we? If you want to see some unbridled joy.

• 50:13Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my God. I would, I, like, even just imagining puppies running, or I'm imagining little baby corgis. I love corgis. You know how they're like big, little, they're low to the ground? I just love corgis. I'm imagining puppies right now. Now I'm happier.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  I, I want to tell you about some research too with this. I'm a huge proponent, everyone should have an animal in their life. I'm trained as an adoption counselor. If you want to rescue pets, please hit me up.

• 50:36Mel Robbins?

  Why should you have an animal in your life?

• 50:38Speaker 01

  It's such amazing research. First of all, if you want to look for the moments in people's lives when they smile or laugh or experience play or experience affectionate touch, right? Core human needs that of anything you could do in life, you are most likely to experience those things when you are interacting with an animal and especially your pet. And they've done studies too, looking at places where people are suffering, like in a hospital or in hospice. You bring in an animal and these things just come out of us. We are still capable of smiling, laughing, playing and engaging in caregiving and affectionate touch. It's a wonderful opportunity we have as humans. Everyone should adopt a pet.

• 51:22Mel Robbins?

  I agree. It's so true. And when you bring in the pet, what's interesting is my resigned, frustrated, exhausted, judgy, pushbacky self goes right out the window. I'm like, you're absolutely right. I do feel better when I see my pet. And that's a signal of things that are good. That's a signal of meaning, that signal of the good experience of being human, which you said, Dr. McGonigal, is hardwired in you.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  I know. And it's a sign of what's good in you too. So especially if you're a dog person, dogs, the way that dogs look at you is what we really all crave, right? We want people to kind of see us for who we are and be like, I'm so glad you're here. And dogs are really good at that. Now, I'm a cat person. What cats are really good at, they're good at saying, I trust you. Like, that's, that's a trust-based relationship. When you get a cat who's willing to trust you, it gives you this sense of like, wow, I'm a special person. Like, I created a real bond here. And then when you interact with animals and you feel that way about yourself, you know, it just leaves a sense of that being true outside of just that one relationship.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  I mean, we're talking about animals now. There are lots of ways we can experience this. What I actually really want people to do is trust the experiences that give them that feeling. So if you're thinking, I'm not an animal person, but I feel that way when I'm in nature, or I feel that way when I'm making music, or I feel that way when I'm cooking for people, is to find the things that make you feel that way about yourself, where like, who you are is a good thing and there's a fit between who you are and what's happening in that moment.

• 53:02Mel Robbins?

  I love that, Dr. McGonigal. I hate to stop our conversation right now. I'm sure you hate that I'm stopping it too, because you know I'm going to say, we got to go to our sponsors. But I don't want you to go anywhere. So stay with me.

• 53:20Mel Robbins?

  Here's the thing, when it comes to investing, who doesn't love having options? Some days you might want a little more control. Hey, it's only human. And other times, you may want a teammate in your corner. Well, with Schwab, you get all the things all in one place. Like self-directed investing, when you're thinking, hey, I got this. Or full-service wealth management, when you're like, you know what? Maybe I need some help handling things. You also have investing, trading, college planning and more. Whether you're mapping out long-term goals, building a diversified portfolio, or just getting started and learning the ropes, there's support when you need it and independence when you want it. Whatever the approach, Schwab can help you invest your way. Because if you're going to do this whole money thing, you might as well choose a firm

• 54:04Mel Robbins?

  that lets you do it your way, right? Visit schwab.com to learn more. That's S-C-H-W-A-B dot com. One of the things I'm most proud of here at the Mel Robbins Podcast is that we're constantly growing and hiring new amazing people to join the team. So let me introduce you to our new producer, Matt. Matt, you just moved to Boston, joined our team, furnished your new apartment with our sponsor, Wayfair. Be honest, how empty was this place when you got the keys?

• 54:33Speaker 02

  It was pretty sad, like, air mattress on the floor, eating takeout in a lawn chair, sad.

• 54:38Mel Robbins?

  So where did you even start?

• 54:40Speaker 02

  Went straight to Wayfair because I needed everything. Bed frame, couch, area rug, desk, you name it.

• 54:45Mel Robbins?

  How did Wayfair help you feel at home?

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Once I laid out the rug and assembled the couch, I was like, all right, this is home now.

• 54:53Mel Robbins?

  Well, there you have it. More than 20 million verified five-star reviews on Wayfair. Helps shoppers buy with confidence. Plus, Wayfair Rewards members get 5% back on every purchase. Transform your space with pieces that hold up to real life. Join Wayfair Rewards today and get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 55:17Mel Robbins?

  The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance, our exclusive insurance partner. You know when someone finishes your sentence because they already understood what you needed? That's what working with Amica feels like. They don't guess, they don't assume. They take the time to understand what you're trying to protect and why it matters. Most companies talk, talk, talk about putting customers first. Amica really does it. You feel it in the way they listen, the way they follow through, the way they treat you. As a customer-owned company, Amica puts your needs first. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

• 55:59Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's Mel. I'm so excited that you're here. I love learning, don't you, from Dr. McGonigal? How to feel like yourself again, the science of getting your spark back? Let's just jump right back into it. Emotions is another one of these free resources that help you tap into the signals of life that you're wired to feel, meaning, purpose, joy. How do you use your emotions?

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Let's see. I mean, one way is to start with where you actually are. That's where you ask yourself, like, what emotions are present? And what is that emotion trying to help me reflect on? Or what is it calling me to do? I feel like that's a really advanced skill, though.

• 56:35Mel Robbins?

  When you shut down emotionally, what does that mean?

• 56:38Speaker 01

  It is a moment where your body and brain, reading the situation, think that there's actually nothing you can do. And if you feel like you are unsafe, don't have a lot of power, don't have a lot of control or options, your body and brain will try as an act of kindness to make you less present for what's happening. And so you can start to shut down. You can start to be less, you know, in some stress responses, it heightens all your senses. Because those stress responses want you to fight or flee or help someone, or like, you know, rise to the challenge. But some stress responses are just trying to take care of you in a difficult moment and make it less awful to be in.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  And in some situations, it's helpful. But a lot of us who have had experiences where it was helpful at the time, it can become a kind of chronic way to relate to life. Where anytime things get difficult, the body and brain is like, let's go into that place where we can't feel it as much. And often, the coping strategies, I had to learn that someone who experiences this kind of withdrawal or shutdown, you have to start to really cultivate these other stress responses, these other stress resources that are more about engaging with life.

• 57:57Mel Robbins?

  How do you do that?

• 57:57Speaker 01

  There's two types of strategies. One is the more global, like what you do in your life to train yourself. And then there is in the moment. I really believe that what you need to do is train for these moments.

• 58:09Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  So I mean, I could tell you something to do, but the number one thing I would tell you to do is you need to go in your mind to the memory of the thing you were able to do when you were training. So let me give you an example. You know, you thanked me for getting on a plane to get out here. And I mentioned, I hate flying. I have a huge fear of flying my entire life, to the point where, you know, I refused to fly, had panic attacks, even thinking about booking an airline ticket. I would like dissociate or hope to dissociate, even when I had to think about giving up my bodily autonomy in that way and being on an airplane. It felt unsafe. Yeah. So here's how I trained when I decided I wanted to be able to fly. I thought, how do I feel when I'm on a plane, which is completely out of control?

• 58:54Speaker 01

  I'm having a panic attack, so my heart is racing. I'm sweating. All I want is to get out of this space. I want the freedom to leave and I'm trapped and I can't. I thought, where have I ever felt like that? That's not on a plane because I'm not ready to get on a plane. And I remembered going to a spin class, an indoor cycling class, and hating it. And feeling like when I was on that bike, I just wanted to get off the bike. I wanted to get out of this sweaty room with stale air. My heart was pounding and I thought, I'm going to go back and I'm going to go to that spin class. And I'm going to practice staying on the bike and feeling all the things that I feel on an airplane. And in that moment, I'm going to tell myself, I'm doing this because I want to choose a life where I can get on planes.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  As much as I try to protect myself, I can't protect myself from things I don't want to experience. It actually, I'm suffering just as much by avoiding it as I ever would be by doing it. And so I'm going to practice this kind of, for me, it was like just the physical courage to stay put and tolerate the pounding heart and tolerate the sweat and feeling trapped. I'm going to tolerate that in the service of something that matters to me. I know it'd be like so nice if I could tell you when you're dissociated. I mean, there are things you can do, like feel your feet on the floor. There are things you can do to ground. And I've heard a lot of wonderful people on your show talk about those in the moment. But I really want you to have a memory of you being that version of yourself. And that's what you call to mind.

• 1:00:19Mel Robbins?

  Is there something you can say to yourself? Because if you're saying to yourself, there's nothing I can do. Could you start saying to yourself, well, there's something I can do?

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  You could, but here's what I'd rather start with. The function of that shutdown is some part of you is trying to take care of you.

• 1:00:35Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  It is compassion for yourself, the same way that you would want to protect someone you love. And you'd want to like scoop them up and like shelter them. If something terrible was happening, right? You'd throw your body over them so they didn't have to experience it. So that's what is real and true in that moment is there's a part of you who cares about yourself that much.

• 1:00:53Mel Robbins?

  Oh, I love that.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  And that's the part of me that got on a bike. And that's the part of me that gets on an airplane, even when I don't want to. It's a different form of self compassion. And so what I would say is rather than saying, I do have control, like, you know.

• 1:01:08Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's also true, but to start with a thing that's closer to what's happening, which is there's a part of you who really cares about you and wants the best for you. That part of you, if you've thought about it, like what, who do I want to be in this moment? What do I want to bring to this moment?

• 1:01:24Mel Robbins?

  I love what you said. I think it's extraordinarily powerful to not make yourself wrong, but to recognize the moments that you go silent and shut down and start to shrink as a sign that you love yourself and you're protecting yourself. And what I heard you say is then start to ask yourself, like, how do I want in the future to feel and show up in these moments? Like, what does a little courage look like, even when I'm a little afraid? I don't have to do it right now. But if you can start to imagine what you want to feel like in those moments, then you can find opportunities to practice that in little moments where you're not as shut down. Is that what you're saying?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  In the same way that someone who loves you would. Like the person who's going to be like, all right, Kelly, you don't want to get on that plane, but I know you can do it. You've done like really hard things before.

• 1:02:20Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  I trust you and you want this. You can do it.

• 1:02:24Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  You know, you can talk to yourself in the same way as someone who cares. Because you are someone who cares about you.

• 1:02:28Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  And then it can move from protection to encouraging.

• 1:02:33Mel Robbins?

  I love that.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  And curiosity about, well, what is possible? And so often, hopelessness or despair is trying to get you to give up. And in some situations, that could be a functional response. But how we often, we often end up generalized, like if it was just saying, give up on this job, like this specific job, move on to the next. Or there's something better waiting for you. If that were how we felt hopelessness, it would be more useful. But how we often feel it is we just transfer it to life. We're like, it's time to give up on life. Or it's time to give up on the belief that things will get better.

• 1:03:11Mel Robbins?

  Or my dreams. Oh, I think a lot of people are there, so I think this is important.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:03:15Mel Robbins?

  And what I like about what you're saying is the mistake, if I parse through this, is that if you're feeling hopeless or discouraged, like this isn't worth it. It's never going to get better, which a lot of people do.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Mel Robbins?

  And then you go wide and you look around and you say, nothing is going to matter. There's nothing that I can do.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:39Mel Robbins?

  Then you've taken an emotion that's trying to give you a signal from intelligence.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Mel Robbins?

  And you've made it way too broad.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so instead of like trying to pull your, like, it could be hopeless to stay in a relationship that is very harmful to you.

• 1:03:54Mel Robbins?

  Of course.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  That relationship may not change, but there is hope.

• 1:03:59Mel Robbins?

  Correct.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  That you can get out.

• 1:04:01Mel Robbins?

  Here's what I'm hearing from you. And I think this is really actually helpful. Hopelessness is a signal that the way you're approaching this doesn't work.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Mel Robbins?

  And you should change the approach rather than the goal.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Mel Robbins?

  And so if the approach, if what you want is to be loved, but you're in a relationship that's hopeless, staying in that relationship won't give you what you want. You have to change your approach.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Flexibility as a response to hopelessness is a very helpful response. That is to not give up on what you want or what you care about.

• 1:04:33Mel Robbins?

  Just change the way you're approaching it. Because if you've sent 300 resumes on an online platform and got nothing back, of course, you're going to feel hopeless. But what the signal is saying is, hey, ding, ding, ding. This strategy isn't working. And let's get creative about how we can approach how you want to get better differently.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  And sometimes it's actions. Like you have to try something different. But you know, when I used to advise a lot of freshmen at Stanford, they would often come in feeling hopeless the first time they fail an exam or when they realized they can't actually be pre-med. And they have this sense that like there's only one way for them to have a good life or a happy life or make other people proud. And I always felt like my job was like, there are so many ways to have a life where you contribute. There are so many ways to have a life where you wake up and you enjoy yourself that day. The opportunities to have a life worth living are vast. And when you're feeling hopeless, the more you fixate on the specific version you thought had to be,

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  that is when the hopelessness becomes overwhelming. And also you can, since we're talking about emotions here. So if you're feeling hopelessness, you can also use your capacity for hope as a resource.

• 1:05:47Mel Robbins?

  Tell me how.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  And there's great, you know, I love global research because I always feel like sometimes studies will like look at one small sample and who knows if this is really a human thing or just like a thing for that group. So there's a study called the, is it the Hope Project? Where they asked people all over the world, what is a source of hope for you when life is hard? And there were very common themes, but one of the biggest sources of hope, two of the biggest sources of hope were doing something to help someone else. Actually, let me give you three. Doing something to help someone else, being thanked by someone you helped, or seeing somebody else do something to help someone. Now, look, all of those are possible when you're feeling hopeless.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  I always say one of the most underappreciated acts of kindness you can do or acts of courage or joy or hope is to let somebody else help you. Because in the moment you let someone help you, you receiving the support of someone is another source of hope. But then that person feels better, they feel more hopeful. You have an opportunity to thank them for helping you. That's a huge source of hope and you make hope possible for you and for the person who helped you. And then if you can help someone else out, it's just another way into that cycle.

• 1:06:59Mel Robbins?

  Well, and I think it's important to be reminded as you're listening or watching this that your brain is wired to pick up signals that you're doing this. Because when your brain sees you doing these acts of good or appreciating them or allowing other people to help you, it reminds you that you're good. It reminds you that life is worth living. It's this kind of through line that gets you to use these resources in you to get you through this.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Mel Robbins?

  And you, by doing this or making a choice, and that's another one of these free resources, the choices you make. So let's give an example of how to use the power of a choice.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I often talk about acts of joy. There are things you do that make joy possible for yourself or for others. And by that, I really mean you can do things that make people feel connected or less alone or yourself. You can create a sense of meaning. You can create a moment where people have something to laugh about. And so in a simple version could be, I'm going to do something to put something beautiful in the world that might surprise someone, if you're somebody who responds to beauty. Or I'm going to send somebody a note to encourage them and let them know that I'm thinking about them. And these are acts that you don't have to feel joyful. You don't have to feel hopeful. You just have to think, I'm going to do something where I know the most likely consequence is.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Joy, hope, meaning, connection. And if you do that, almost always, you end up being the recipient of it yourself, too. Because the person you encourage is going to be encouraged and they'll respond in a way that makes you feel good. Or you'll delight in imagining or seeing somebody else understand that you went out of your way to, you know, make their day better or to give them something to laugh about.

• 1:08:41Mel Robbins?

  It just occurred to me that another choice that is a free resource is to do any one of the things you're recommending.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:46Mel Robbins?

  Because then by choosing to do it, you're reminding yourself that you're capable and you have a bit of agency right now.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:54Mel Robbins?

  That you deserve to laugh.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  What you pay attention to.

• 1:08:56Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  What you bring to mind, what you do with your body.

• 1:08:59Mel Robbins?

  The memories, the music, all of it. And the final free resource is your relationship. How would you recommend that you think about the relationships in your life as a resource to help you through the very challenging moments? Because I've been struck by the number of people that write in and say they don't have anybody.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Mel Robbins?

  And I don't know that that's true. It may feel like it's true.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  It often feels like it's true. You know, when I think about using relationships as a resource, there's two directions. So you're pointing to a willingness to ask for help or let people know what's going on. That's very difficult for me. I mean, I was really brought up to believe that you are not supposed to be a burden. So sometimes I think one of the ways you use your relationships as resources is you actually invite the possibility that people in your life want to be there for you. And that it actually, it's not just a gift to yourself, but it's a gift to other people. And if you feel like you don't have close friends or family that you can rely on, it's

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  amazing, there are people who might be around you who've been through something similar and are waiting to turn that horrible experience into a source of meaning for themselves. I see this happen all the time. I teach at a community center. I see people who were strangers. Suddenly, when one person is honest and says, I'm going through grief, I'm going through cancer treatment, I'm going through a divorce, somebody else who's been through that, who was a stranger, suddenly becomes somebody who wants to show up for that person with moral support, advice, resources. And so part of it is maybe have the idea that there are people who, if you just start being more transparent about what you're going through, there are people who want to be there for you because they care about you.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  But also, there are going to be people who it makes their life more meaningful and easier to deal with it because they're able to turn that into an opportunity to connect with or help you.

• 1:11:05Mel Robbins?

  I think it's very common to not want to feel like you're burdening somebody else. And I remember my dad had a health incident a couple of years ago. And when they finally figured out what it was, which was an intact brain aneurysm that was going to require him to have a major surgery at U-Mich. And my parents had been dealing with this for a month before they told me and my brother. And I remember them saying, we didn't want to worry you. And I was actually mad.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:36Mel Robbins?

  Because I felt like you, by wanting to protect me, denied me the opportunity to love you and support you through this.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:46Mel Robbins?

  And I understand both sides of it. But because I've always been the kind of person that, you know, doesn't want to ask for help, doesn't want to burden people. But when I really experience this feeling of, wait, but I didn't get to support you. I love you. Like, like, I want the opportunity to do that for you. It makes me like upset that you went through that alone and felt like, like it was a burden to tell me. Like, it's generous, in my opinion, to share with people what you're going through.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:18Mel Robbins?

  And to really allow them in.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's interesting, there's the sense of not wanting to be a burden when things are bad. And then people also have a fear of not wanting to brag when things are going well. And they're like two sides of the same coin. Just like you were saying, you can deprive someone of the opportunity to be there for you in your worst moments. And so one of the ways we use our relationships as a resource for all of us, I mean, if you're going to use your relationships as a resource, you really need to be in that mindset of interdependence. Because it's not just for you, it's for the relationship. You're letting people be there for you strengthens the relationship. And also, you are helping the person you're in a relationship with. So if you're going to try to use your relationships as a resource, you really got to get into

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  that mindset that actually it's bigger than you. And that can make it easier to ask for help. But also, it can make it easier to recognize that people want to be there for you in your good moments, too.

• 1:13:15Mel Robbins?

  Well, I want to read to you from your bestselling book, Joy is a Risk Worth Taking. I am on chapter seven and this is page 167. People don't want to be alone in their happiness.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:28Mel Robbins?

  And you write about this. Someone else's happiness can make you genuinely happy. And the person you are happy for can receive your joy as evidence that you care about them. Importantly, humans crave company in their best moments as much as we need comfort in our worst moments. When something positive happens, people don't want to be alone in their joy. They want others to celebrate with them. Your ability to support others in this way is as important as your ability to offer compassion to somebody who is struggling. Taking joy in other people's happiness is also a rich source of pleasure, meaning, and connection for you.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:10Mel Robbins?

  How do you do that? Especially when you're struggling?

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  When people ask me, what's the single most important thing I could do if I want more joy in my life? I give them a mantra, meet joy with joy. You have to actually treat other people's joy like a signal that is your opportunity to connect with them and strengthen that relationship. So it really kind of starts with a goal, right? Taking joy in other people's happiness is about strengthening relationships and letting other people know that they matter, that their happiness matters, and that you care about them.

• 1:14:45Mel Robbins?

  How do you do that if you're miserable? Like, how do you do that if you're struggling? Or your kid is the one struggling and it is falling behind in life or like not thriving? They're not going to prom, they're not graduating? Like, how do you do that and what does it give back?

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  So you're talking about in a situation where your kid is struggling.

• 1:15:05Mel Robbins?

  Or you're struggling and a friend is thriving. Like, I've spent a decade of my life not being happy for other people because I was not happy in my life. And I felt like their happiness just reminded me of how miserable I was.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  That's because it's activating envy, right? Which is another emotion that has a function that often goes awry, right? It's meant to remind you of what you really want. But too often, it triggers these feelings of comparison.

• 1:15:32Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Or sense like I'm falling behind in life. There's a real sadness, the sadness of envy, like, why does this person have this experience? And why can't I?

• 1:15:42Mel Robbins?

  Correct.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  I want this. It can even be grief if you think it's not possible for you. I mean, you went to the really hard place.

• 1:15:48Mel Robbins?

  I always do.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  In those moments, if it's a friend or a family member who's experiencing something that you long for and you don't have.

• 1:15:55Mel Robbins?

  It could be, I can't get pregnant, my friend is pregnant. I want to be married and I'm still the single one at all the weddings.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. You have to, in that moment, make a decision about whether you value that relationship. You don't have to start by trying to force yourself to feel happy for them, right? It's a mistake to be like, I should be happy for them. I'm just going to be happy for them. You have to go to the thing that actually will allow your happiness to emerge authentically. You have to think, I care about this person. I want this person to be able to enjoy it. To know that actually, probably the people in your life, they're going to be aware of this. They may be trying to hide their happiness from you to not hurt you. I mean, it works both ways. It's not like they're trying to rub it in. People understand the complexity of this type of situation.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  So you can go to the part of yourself who values the relationship or wants the other person who also has suffered, but in different ways.

• 1:16:52Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Right? Maybe they are pregnant now, but they also lost a family member recently, or they're struggling at work. We all have the zones of suffering.

• 1:17:01Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  And how important it is for this person to be able to appreciate this good thing and feel supported in it. You have to go to that motivation, it has to be real. And then if you connect to that motivation, then what you do is you express something as authentically as you can. Again, don't try to fix your feeling first. Go to an expression, I'm so happy for you. Tell me more about it. I want to be there. Don't skip the shower or the wedding because you know it's going to bring up mixed feelings for you. You have to trust that you are strong enough to tolerate those mixed feelings and that you want the opportunity to also experience the connection of being there.

• 1:17:41Mel Robbins?

  We talked about that life is not perfect and it's not about happiness. That there's this huge range of the heartbreak and the joy, the sunsets and the funerals, that everything that you've been teaching us helps us move through it and access these signals of meaning and joy and purpose.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  That's the thing, if you do it, right? If you, there's going to be a part of you that wants to distance yourself.

• 1:18:08Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  To be away from their happiness because it's going to hurt you.

• 1:18:12Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  But if you prioritize the relationship and you show up in some way, you send the text message, you go to the event, you call them up, whatever it is, and you do your best to meet their joy with joy, you will receive a signal back that makes you feel connected to that person. When you connect in that way, you also feel less alone in what you're going through, even though it feels like that can't be possible. You could feel connected to a friend who is pregnant when you are grieving the fact that you cannot have a child. And that feeling connected to them can make you feel less alone in the fact that you can't have a child, even though it seems like that's so illogical that that could happen.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  So to prioritize that connection and do your best, you will receive signals back to you that bolster your own sense that you can get through what you're going through or that you can get what you want.

• 1:19:07Mel Robbins?

  Well, it makes sense to me that if you want more joy in your life, that shutting down and closing yourself off from moments of joy is going to not help you feel joy. You've got to meet joy with joy. So Dr. McGonigal, if the person who's listening or watching takes one...

• 1:19:27Mel Robbins?

  Thing away from this conversation. What is the most important thing?

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  I think the most important thing you can take away is that joy is not selfish, that joy is a profound act of care for yourself and collective care. It is a way of supporting yourself through hard times. It is absolutely possible, even when life is hard. And that this capacity for joy that you have, even if it feels diminished, is still in you.

• 1:20:03Mel Robbins?

  What are your parting words?

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Hmm. One of my most meaningful memories as a student was this exercise where the teacher had everyone in the room think about what they really needed to hear, what they really hoped was true, they wanted to believe. And then she just simply said it back to that person. And so I think, when I think about what people have shared with me, the fears that they have, I just want to say some things that I know are true, that maybe are hard for you to feel as true, but some part of you also knows they're true. You are capable of joy and you deserve joy.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  That your joy can be a source of joy to others, that your existence in this world is a good thing and a source of joy.

• 1:20:55Mel Robbins?

  Dr. McDonigal, your existence in this world is a source of joy. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your research, for your work, for getting on a plane, for pouring into us, and for teaching us how to tap into this wiring and these resources inside of us to experience more joy in our life. And I also want to say thank you. Thank you to you for making the time to devour this episode. I hope that's what you did with it. I hope it hit you in your DNA and then you send this to everybody in your life that you care about.

• 1:21:38Mel Robbins?

  This was so remarkable. I'm so joyful about it, and here's why. There is no doubt in my mind that everything that you just learned will make your life better and more meaningful, and it will give you a lifeline to help yourself through the very challenging and difficult times. And I'm excited for you to have this as a resource to come back to and to be reminded of the power that you have inside of yourself to live a beautiful life, despite how it may feel right now. And in case nobody else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you as your friend that I love you and I believe in you, you are capable of joy and you can create a better life.

• 1:22:22Mel Robbins?

  And the tools that you learned today will help you do that, starting today in the day-to-day moments, and that's where you build a life. Alrighty, I will see you in the very next episode. I'm going to welcome you in the moment you hit play. Okay, you ready?

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:22:40Mel Robbins?

  Here we go. Because again, you don't have, your life doesn't have to feel good in order for it to be beautiful.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  I'm going to make like an imaginary visual aid.

• 1:22:52Mel Robbins?

  I can't read a chart anyway.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:53Mel Robbins?

  I mean, everyone holds these charts up, I'm like, I don't even know how to read that. Okay. So let's just jump right up, so let's just.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  But it is very much agentic.

• 1:23:01Mel Robbins?

  What is agentic?

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Like, there's things.

• 1:23:03Mel Robbins?

  Is that a scary word? That was fantastic. I am so excited about this episode and what it's going to do for people around the world. So thank you.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  Maybe we do get some jazz hands in there.

• 1:23:12Mel Robbins?

  Get some jazz hands for the end. Well, because when we move.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:23:16Mel Robbins?

  Right, I'm tapping into a resource here. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:24:05Mel Robbins?

  Am I the only one who feels like choosing the right product sometimes is just so complicated? Have you ever tried to read the label for something and it looks like a science experiment rather than something you'd want to use? Thanks, I think I'll pass. I mean, you and I want to use products that do what they're supposed to do, but you also want to feel good about the products that you buy. And that includes the ingredients that are in them. So when it comes to laundry, the choice is clear. All Free Clear detergent. All Free Clear tackles stains and odors. It not only gets the cleaning job done, it's also 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. All Free Clear provides a powerful clean while being gentle on your skin with only

• 1:24:48Mel Robbins?

  essential ingredients and zero dyes and perfumes. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. And All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear. All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the everything app for smarter money. Let me ask you something. Is your money working for you? Or is it just sitting there? A lot of us work hard, get paid, and then leave our paycheck in checking. That's an easy habit to change. With SoFi Checking and Savings, you can earn up to 3.8% savings APY for up to six months

• 1:25:33Mel Robbins?

  with no account fees and a cash bonus of up to $400 when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. Terms apply. It takes just minutes to open an account from your phone, and you can organize your savings into vaults for the goals you're working toward. Go to sofi.com/mal to get started. SoFi, get your money right. SoFi Checking and Savings is offered through SoFi Bank, an A member FDIC.