How to Stop Being Overlooked & Start Getting What You Want With Top Business School Professor

What are you not doing because you’re afraid nobody will notice? In this episode, you’re going to learn one of the most important career skills nobody teaches you: how to make sure your work, ideas, and contributions get seen. Today, Mel sits down with Professor Marina Cooley, an award-winning professor at Emory University’s Goizueta Business School who teaches marketing and the attention economy: how to break through the noise, make your ideas memorable, and get people to pay attention. Because doing great work is not enough if nobody knows you’re doing it. If you’ve ever felt like you’re working hard but no one seems to notice, watched someone else get the job, raise, or recognition you wanted, or hated the idea of talking about yourself because “self-promotion” feels gross, this conversation is for you. Professor Cooley will teach you how to move through that fear and put yourself out there anyway. This conversation is packed with small, practical strategies that work even if you’re quiet, introverted, hate attention, or have spent your entire career hoping your work would speak for itself. In this episode, you’ll learn: - How to stop being overlooked without becoming someone you’re not - How to communicate your wins without feeling like you’re bragging - Why great work alone won’t necessarily get you promoted - How to build a “portable reputation” that follows you throughout your career - The “3-second test” that reveals whether people understand what you do and the problems you solve - What to do before meetings so your ideas and contributions get noticed - How to get strategic about your work so your effort leads to real advancement - How to put yourself out there when you’re afraid nobody will care Whether you want to get hired, get promoted, grow your business, share your work, or finally get recognition for what you’re already doing, this episode will show you how to stop hiding and start making sure the right people know what you can do. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked the episode, check out this one next: How to Communicate With Confidence & Ease (From Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor) Connect with Mel: Order Mel’s product, Pure Genius Protein Get Mel’s newsletter, packed with tools, coaching, and inspiration. Get Mel’s #1 bestselling book, The Let Them Theory Watch the episodes on YouTube Follow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast Instagram Mel's TikTok Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-free Disclaimer

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  I'm willing to bet that there is something that you want to do in your life that requires you to put yourself out there. Maybe you want to start posting videos. You want to start a business, apply for a different job, ask for a raise, pitch an idea, sell something you made, ask someone out. But you keep telling yourself that the thing stopping you is, well, I'm afraid of what everyone thinks. I'm afraid of judgment. You put out the video and nobody watches. You launch the product and nobody buys it. You make the call and they don't call you back. You submit the resume, they don't respond. You throw the thing, nobody

• 0:50Speaker 00

  shows up. That's the fear that can hold you back from the life you deserve. And that's why I'm excited for you to hear the conversation today. Our guest today is Emory University's Business School Professor Marina Cooley. Now, I want to be clear about something. She's not here to teach you how to be an influencer, and she's not going to talk to you about turning your life into content. That's not what putting yourself out there means. It means having the courage to create something instead of spending your entire life consuming what everybody else is creating. How do you share your work? How do you ask for what you want? Make your ideas memorable? How do you keep going when putting yourself out there

• 1:32Speaker 00

  makes you want to just crawl out of your own skin or crawl into a hole? If there is something you've been thinking about starting, sharing, asking for, or creating, this episode and Professor Cooley is here for you.

• 1:56Speaker 00

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• 3:50Speaker 00

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. I'm excited for our conversation. It's such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener, or you're here because someone shared this with you, I just wanted to personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. And I cannot wait for you to meet today's guest, Professor Marina Cooley. She is here to give you the specific tools and the tactics that you need to know in order to get hired, promoted, and paid more. Professor Cooley is one of the top professors at Emory University's Goizueta Business School. In 2025, she was awarded Emory's Highest Teaching Honor, the

• 4:33Speaker 00

  Emory Williams Distinguished Undergraduate Teaching Award, and was named one of the Poets and Quants Top 40 Under 40 MBA Professors. Before teaching, she spent 15 years in senior roles at Coca-Cola, Honest Tea, Lava, and IBM, building brands and leading strategy inside Fortune 100 companies and fast-growing startups. Today, classes in session. Grab your pen, grab your paper, because this episode will teach you the specific things to do to get the job, the promotion, to get ahead, to get noticed, or simply get the recognition you deserve. So without further ado, please help me welcome Professor Cooley to the Mel

• 5:15Speaker 00

  Robbins Podcast. Professor Marina Cooley, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

• 5:23Speaker 00

  Well, thank you for traveling into Boston. I cannot wait to learn from you. And I want to start by asking you, could you share what might be different about my life if I take everything to heart that you are about to teach me today and I apply it as soon as I'm done listening to you?

• 5:42Speaker 01

  If you take everything we talk about today, you'll be able to amplify anything that you want in your life. So whether you want to be a chef, or an author, or you want to change careers, or you want that VP title, or you want to be an entrepreneur, all of that is available to you if you are willing to put yourself out there and get over your cringe and build those dreams out loud. And there has never been an easier and more accessible time to do that. So do not for a moment think that it is too late.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  And what does dream out loud mean?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  It means that you're willing to know what you want and to ask for it.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  Oh. Which part of it do you think stops most people? Knowing what you want or being willing to ask for it?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Both. We are so busy and there's so much information coming at us that it can be really hard to discern what you want.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  And then if you are lucky enough to find out what you want, you are then scared about putting yourself out there and not getting it. And rejection feels really bad. So both of those things.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Yes, it's so true. Can you explain your background? You teach this wildly popular class. And I feel like I am in day one and I was lucky enough to get one of the seats in your class. So tell us a little bit about your background and what you teach.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm going to start with the background because if you've ever heard the expression, a cat has nine lives.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  I'm like the woman with nine careers. I started as a management consultant.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  I traveled every single week for four years, 46 weeks, packed my little suitcase, traveled to a client and learned that is a very challenging job. And it can feel very shallow. And so after four years, I realized I had this really fancy degree, four years of consulting, and I was empty inside and I had hit a dead end. And I thought, well, I actually do know what I want. I want to be a marketer for a food and beverage company. And guess how many food and beverage companies wanted to hire me?

• 7:45Speaker 00

  How many?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  None. You know why?

• 7:47Speaker 00

  I don't know. Why?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Well, I had zero experience doing marketing.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  You sound like every 20-year-old I know right now.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Right?

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  So I did the only thing I could really think of was that I started my own food company.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  What kind of food and beverage company did you make?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Peanut butter.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  You made peanut butter?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had this really great idea. I mean, I love nut butter. I probably consume half of my calories from nut butter. And I thought this is like such a calorically dense thing. What if we could blend it with something? So like a pumpkin peanut butter, a honey nut banana peanut butter. And I did it. I got FDA approval for a recipe. I got a commercial space. And I probably knew without, within 18 months that it was going to fail. Maybe, maybe earlier. Okay, now I'm like a failed management consultant. I'm a failed entrepreneur. And so I-

• 8:37Speaker 00

  How old are you at this point?

• 8:38Speaker 01

  I'm 28.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  And oh, Mel, I'm feeling very behind.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Okay, very behind. Because meanwhile, everyone I was consulting with has gotten promoted again. They've already gone to business school. I'm behind. I'm late.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  This is such a universal feeling. And that nagging sense that you're behind.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  I'm late. I'm late.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  I'm late. It's too late. I screwed it up. Okay, so what did you do next?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  I tucked my tail. And went back to school, went to get my MBA.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  This time, laser focused, right? Because I'm lucky. I know what I want. I want to do marketing and I want to do it for a food and beverage company. No distractions.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Okay. And not only that, I wanted to work at Coca-Cola.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  It was the only job I wanted.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  So why did you want to work for Coca-Cola?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  I, I just think if you're going to learn to do marketing, like, learn to do marketing. And so, um, Seattle at Nike felt just a little too far. I'm an East Coast gal.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Um, and my family was from Atlanta.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Okay. Oh, there you go.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  And there you go, right?

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Coca-Cola is based.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  That's where Coca-Cola is based. So one track focus, I networked like crazy. I don't think there was a person on the interview team that hadn't met me before I came to that interview. And they were all like, oh, it's the peanut butter girl. And when they called me and made me an offer for this job, they said, we hired you because you have moxie. So this failure, this being behind, ended up serving me.

• 10:16Speaker 00

  Well, one of the other things I want to say about it is that because you had something unique. It made you stand out.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  And I would imagine that the fact that there was something unique about you, that you were willing to talk about, that you were willing to use your word amplify, also helped to have you rise above the noise of everybody else that was just blah, da, da, da, da. Who was that? What did they work for? Oh, the peanut butter, the peanut butter girl. Interesting. Okay. I have a feeling we're going to circle back to that. So what, what happened next?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  So I start working at Coca-Cola.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  I work on, you know, the biggest brands with the biggest budgets.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  So I continued to progress. I had all of these grand visions of becoming a CMO one day.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  A chief marketing officer, in case you don't know what a CMO is.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Okay. I was going to be a big deal.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Um, and then I had a baby and then I had another baby really quickly after that.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Um, and then I thought, wait, I'm sorry, how am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to, uh, work this many hours and have children?

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  And, and again, I have to say, it felt like a dead end. And I know that millions, probably hundreds of millions of women face the same question of, am I at a dead end? Because how, how can I prove myself here and prove myself at home? And then one day I get an email and it's from my favorite, um, professor from business school. And he says, we are going to be hiring a full-time marketing faculty member. You've never mentioned wanting to teach, but would you be interested in applying? I saw that email and within five seconds, I knew I was going to find a way to get that job. And it took nine months to get the job. I had to be an adjunct. And they gave me a class to teach to show that I could do it.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  And the class was scheduled for Thursdays at 6:30 PM.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Okay. Can we just stop? That is the worst time.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  And they're like, obviously we can't find a real faculty to teach at this time. So we'll put you in here and you prove to us that you can be good at this job.

• 12:30Speaker 00

  Clearly the Thursday night, uh, class was very popular. And now you teach one of the most popular classes there. And you're an expert in marketing, but I'd love to talk a little bit before we jump into some of the big takeaways from your course. How does this apply to your life? What you're about to teach us about dreaming out loud and amplifying yourself and putting yourself out there? How does this apply to somebody who doesn't have a business? Or doesn't think they have some product to market?

• 13:02Speaker 01

  When you know what you want.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  You are able to verbalize that to anyone that you meet with. So let's say that you are thinking about transitioning roles, or you feel like you're in an industry that AI might take away. You're going to have to communicate your narrative. And you're going to have to do it in a way that you feel good about, that you can sleep with at night. And learning the skills of how to tell your own story are valuable to anyone at any time.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  I would love to talk about what are the courses that you teach at Emory Business School? And what are some of the biggest takeaways from this wildly popular course?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Well, I teach advanced marketing strategy, which really takes someone that wants to go into the marketing profession, all the way through to how do I create a brand, launch a brand, maintain a brand? But my, um, I would say my calling card is this content marketing class, which I would argue is one of the most unique marketing classes in the country, because we study the attention economy.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  Okay. What is the attention economy for somebody who doesn't know what that is?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Right now there are 1.3 billion things posted on Instagram every day.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  1.3 billion?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  That's right. Our bottleneck, our limiting factor is the amount of time that we have available to us. That, that is the attention economy.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  There's, there's just, there's too much information out there. I can't process all of it. And there's, there's different elements to it. One is just how do I make sure that my attention is being put into the right things?

• 14:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Then the other part of it is, well, how do I use that to my advantage? So if I want to build a business or progress, or if there's a message I need to put out, how do I grab someone's very limited attention?

• 14:51Speaker 00

  You teach the core principles about how somebody can break through and get their message across and amplify their business or amplify their message. But every single thing we're going to talk about is also applicable. If you want to effectively ask for a raise, if you want to communicate your boundaries, if you want to basically do anything. Because a one-way ticket to a life that's not working is sitting silent and hoping somebody can read your mind or actually guess what it is that you need and want. And so this is going to be more and more important because everybody is so distracted. Is that right?

• 15:35Speaker 01

  That, that is so well said. Yes.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  And I would love to have you put us right in the classroom with you. And you are now in front of the class. The person who's with us is sitting next to me in class. And class is now in session. What is the assignment that you give to everybody?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, the assignment is called go viral, get an A. But I have to tell you that as, as fun as this story will be, it goes to a very important ethos.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  And I myself have been the student, a student in a classroom for many years. I think most listeners have spent time in a classroom. And my philosophy is tell me, and I forget, okay? Teach me and I remember, involve me and I will learn. And I want my students to learn. If we want academia to continue on, if you don't want all of your learning to come from YouTube.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  We, we have to make the classroom experience something special.

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Um, and I racked my brain on how to do this, right? How to make my students get over putting themselves out there? How to take the principles of sticky ideas, which is what I teach.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  And pour it out, right? Prove to me that you have gotten the learnings from this class. If you go viral, I'll give you an A because you've done it. You've understood the science of sticky ideas.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Now, what is a sticky idea?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  So something memorable. So in this, you know, in this noise, so, um, let's scale down to size a little bit, right? So if there's 1.3 billion messages a day, just on Instagram, 34 million on TikTok, you and I are each seeing about six to 10,000. So as we're walking, as we're opening our phones, on the way to the elevator, maybe even in the bathroom, six to 10,000 messages a day.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  My God.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  How many will you remember?

• 17:30Speaker 00

  Zero, especially now that I'm in menopause.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  I mean, if we're lucky, maybe three. And so you want to figure out how to make your idea sticky.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  And that is what will help the local real estate agent have someone remember him or her when they're looking for a home.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  True.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  And that's the principle I'm trying to teach.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  Okay. So even understanding that if you want somebody to remember you, or you want somebody to remember what you just told them, it needs to be sticky, otherwise it's not going to break through.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like a Velcro hook, right?

• 18:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  I bet if you take an interruption right now and you're like, hey, what did, what was that woman talking about? The thing that you're going to come back and say peanut butter girl.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  That's, that's a sticky idea. I mean, in, in a few ways, pun intended.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Yes. Well played.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  That, that is why they remembered me.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  That's why I got that job. So what are you doing to make your conversation different than everyone else's conversation? That's how you demonstrate a sticky idea.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  You know where I think this is super relevant? You mentioned AI is, I think it's super relevant if you are either applying to school, whether it's a graduate school or college or whatever, whether you are trying to get a job. Whether you are out and interested in meeting new friends, or meeting, you know, somebody that you connect with in a romantic way. Because if you're not memorable, then you are forgettable. And that is kind of a painful thing to think about. So when you present this, first of all, what does it mean to get to go viral in your class? So the person that's listening, you're sitting right next to me, and I'm like, what does she mean, go viral?

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  What does it mean, go viral?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  So the assignment is for 30 days.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  We will post once a day.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  So like, as in every single student has to post on their own account?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Every, so we break up into 30 groups.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  And every group gets assigned one day. Group one posts the first day, right? They're sharing something about their college experience. They're running around on campus with little mics. They're making dance videos. They're doing man on the street interviews. And they post. And then group two sees what they post. We discuss it in class, what could be better? And then group two builds. And then group three watches group one and group two. And they're like, that was too long, right? Or, hey, I loved how they did that. We could do that a little bit better. So in 2022, when I started this experiment, the algorithm rewarded consistent daily posting. That's what it wanted. It was like, feed the beast.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  And we fed the beast. We had our first 1 million mark on day 15.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  And by day 30, cumulatively, we had hit 10 million impressions over 1 million likes. 30 days, baby account. And, you know, we did it.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  So tell me, what have you learned teaching this? Because as you listen to it, you go, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You're going to iterate on an idea and you're working on a group project. And if you do silly things, it's going to go viral on the internet. But listening to the idea and thinking about the idea is very, very easy. Just like it's easy to think about asking for the raise. It's easy to think about applying for the job. It's easy to think about starting the YouTube channel. It's easy to think about writing the song. But there is something that you discovered that really is the breakthrough that keeps people from dreaming out loud and from amplifying themselves.

• 21:13Speaker 00

  And so what stands in most of our way that you're actually the deeper thing that you're teaching here?

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Fear.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  I mean, when you put something out there and put something out there, yes, in this case as a post, but put something out there could also be asking for the raise.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Asking for the meeting.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Two things can happen that you're not going to like. One of them is that you don't get it, right?

• 21:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  And the other one is that you get ignored.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  Ooh.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  And both of those things feel awful. I mean, our, our brain is programmed to save us from those feelings. I mean, social rejection feels awful.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  It's literally the same part of your brain that tells you you're in physical pain. And so we're wired to not experience that. And when you think about it like that, like, how does anyone ever post anything or ask for anything? It's because we're finding a way to move past that. And to be able to give students and you who is listening, a reminder that you can,

• 22:30Speaker 01

  you can put it out there and you actually won't die.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  Well, one of the things that I think we all know and we talk about is that fear that people are going to criticize you, that fear that, that, that people are gonna, you know, judge you. But what I've never considered is the other fear that you mentioned, which is that no one is going to even look at it. Like, we talk a lot about being scared about people judging us. But I haven't had a conversation yet with somebody, Professor Cooley, about this deeper fear of what if it sucks? What if no one comes and watches? What if nobody listens to the song?

• 23:21Speaker 00

  Can we talk a little bit about that part of social rejection?

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. It's so deep within us to be scared that nobody will care about us.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  And the only way forward is to use the rational part of your brain and tell yourself that nothing will happen if you get ignored. I mean, you might, you might learn a lot that you're not asking in an impactful way, that you're forgettable instead of memorable.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  If it's about content creation and no one sees it. And the truth is, a few people will see it. There are going to be your friends and family that see it and they're going to be sorry for you on your behalf. Right? You're, you're going to be thinking about how they're thinking, like, she's so pathetic. She just keeps sharing stuff that nobody sees.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  And this is where that rational brain has to use the tools that you've given us, Mel, which is to say, let them. Right? Let them think that I'm being ignored, but I am going to figure out a way to communicate effectively because I want to amplify the life that I'm living.

• 24:27Speaker 00

  You know, I really, I, I, I'm really stopping to think about this concept, though, that so, you just said, so deep within us is this fear that no one cares about us. And as you said that, I realized that I did not do events. Like, I would go and speak at other people's events. But over the past, I don't know, six or seven years, people will be like, why don't you do your own events? Lots of people, you know, that write books, do their own events. And you want to know why I didn't do my own events?

• 25:07Speaker 00

  Because I, I, it's not that I thought people would judge me if I did my own events. It's because I truly believed people wouldn't come. You know, when we went, we went on tour and when we started planning this thing, last minute, of course, and people are going, oh, we should go to all these cities. I'm like, are you kidding? Can we, why don't we just go to a couple and see if anybody comes? Like, who's going to come to a podcast? Like, I was still in that mode. And I think it's important to say it because this fear that you have, whether you're afraid no one's going to show up and buy your granola,

• 25:50Speaker 00

  or you're afraid that lots of people will be there, but they're going to be rolling their eyes and laughing at you. Lots of people are going to see your post and no one's going to like it. Like, it is so hardwired in you that feeling that cringe and that, oh my God, am I really doing this? That, that it is part of what you have to go through. Can you talk about the social wiring and the cringe factor? And just like, that it's just part of the deal? And that if you, if you feel it, are you normal? Like, is that just part of this?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  I mean, cringe is kind of a new word.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  But really, cringe is that social rejection.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  It's, I am going to do something that, in a way, you know, society has told me not to do. Maybe, maybe you interpret that as bragging or self-promotion. And you've seen it done in really bad ways, which we all have.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  And so you think cringe, but I think if that's how it feels, you're doing it wrong.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  Wait a minute. If you feel cringey, you're doing it wrong?

• 26:57Speaker 01

  I, I think that there are ways to, A, get over it, right? Which is the push through. We're going to push through. We know we're going to make it on the other side. And then I think once you've done that, there are ways to show up authentically for the interview, for the business, for the email that you're writing, that aren't going to keep you up at night feeling like you're about to jump out of an airplane.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Wow. I am so glad you just shared that. And as you're listening or watching on YouTube, if you're anything like me, you're already thinking of someone, or probably multiple people, who need to hear everything that Professor Cooley is teaching us. Maybe it's one of your kids who's out there trying to get their first job. Or perhaps it's a friend who keeps talking about that Etsy shop that they want to launch. Or maybe it's your brother who got laid off a couple of months ago at his job and he needs help making sure that he gets seen and is able to get the interviews and land the job that he needs. Now, while Professor Cooley and I take a quick break, I want you to listen to our sponsors and do this. Send that person this episode. All right.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  Let's give our sponsors a minute to shine and then we're diving right back in with Professor Cooley. So stay with me.

• 28:14Speaker 00

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• 30:19Speaker 02

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• 30:21Speaker 00

  This is at Sphere.

• 30:23Speaker 02

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• 30:29Speaker 00

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• 30:45Speaker 00

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• 31:52Speaker 01

  You've seen bragging or self-promotion done in really bad ways. And so you think cringe, but I think if that's how it feels, you're doing it wrong.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  That was business school professor Marina Cooley. She's an award-winning professor at Emory University, and she's here in our Boston studios to teach you how to put yourself out there, get people to pay attention, and make your work ideas and business impossible to ignore. And boy, I think we all relate to that feeling of cringe, don't we? Ooh, but it feels cringey to promote myself. It feels cringey to put myself out there. So Professor Cooley, you also teach some unbelievable research in your class when it comes to making sure that you aren't sitting back hoping people notice. Like, if you're somebody right now that's listening, and you're annoyed because you feel like you keep getting passed over,

• 32:48Speaker 00

  or if you can't seem to get the promotion you want, or you can't seem to get the type of salary that you want, there is something that you need to know based on research that's really important. So could you talk to us about that, Professor Cooley?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  The research that Mel is referring to from Catalyst took a look at 3,000 respondents that were labeled "high potential." So you might want to know-

• 33:14Speaker 00

  What does "high potential" mean?

• 33:15Speaker 01

  What "high potential" meant. And, you know, studies like this have to have a very specific definition. And we called "high potential" that you have an MBA and that you are progressing up a career field in a traditional corporate job.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  So I know these people.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  You used to be one of these people.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  I used to be one of these people, and my MBAs are these people. So 3,000 people. And the researchers then took nine attributes that people use to have career progression, and specifically to get higher compensation.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  And so some of the tactics were finding a mentor, taking additional training, looking for external opportunities, and bringing those internally. Communicating that you'll work long hours, working long hours, and then communicating your achievements. And then they were able to, over time, establish which of these work. And there's a very surprising finding, which is that what works for men is different than what works for women. So for men, it is taking opportunities externally and showing them off internally, like, "Look what I'm worth." And surprisingly, it's the communicating that "I'm willing to work long hours."

• 34:29Speaker 00

  So for guys, if you communicate, which means amplifying-

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  And even hearing, like, that you are talking about working long hours feels like, ugh, yuck. But as you say it, but so as a dude, the research shows, if you're willing to communicate that you'll work the big hours-

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  And if you're also willing to go out and get other jobs, and then come back and say, "These guys are going to pay me X," that those are two attributes in terms of amplifying yourself that lead to an increase in salary and an increase in your, like, you get a raise?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  Okay, what about for women?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  So for women-

• 35:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  There's one attribute that moves the needle, and that is communicating your achievements. And I find this to be so exciting.

• 35:15Speaker 00

  Exciting?

• 35:15Speaker 01

  I do.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Okay, tell us why.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Because I think, and I'll speak for myself, and also many of the women that I have taught, we believe that often we're going to have to get pushed out of the workforce because we can't communicate we're going to work the long hours, because for stages of our life, we can't. So to know that we're not, we're not going to be punished for not doing that, and instead, all we have to do is the work, and then communicate what results that work led to, that's what it's going to take to get paid more? I think that's really good news.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  I think that's really good news. And what do you think the big mistake is that women make, based on this research?

• 35:57Speaker 01

  We believe that if we do great work, that that is enough.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  That somebody's going to notice.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Someone's going to notice.

• 36:06Speaker 00

  And what are the things, based on this research and based on all the, the work that you're doing around amplification, what is it that women are supposed to do that they don't know that they need to do? Like, how do you promote the things that you're doing?

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Taking this back to the attention economy that we live in-

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  I want to feel what it feels like to be that manager for a minute. So you have, you know, 10 direct reports.

• 36:33Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  You have your own boss.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Maybe you have three kids at home. Maybe your mom is going through cancer, or your dad. You are also seeing 6,000 to 10,000 messages a day. And so if one of your 10 direct reports is always demonstrating, this is what our team has accomplished, like if they are the ones that are making you the boss look good, I think it's not surprising that that person would advance. So if you're one of the other nine and you're crossing your fingers, thinking that your boss is thinking about you, they're not. And again, I, I don't think a lot of the times it's malicious. It's that our attention is the most scarce resource.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  And so you have to do the work and then help illustrate what you have done. And not every statement is about bragging.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  And there are many ways to do it in a way that you are sharing what contributions you have made to progress the goals of the organization forward.

• 37:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  And when you do it like that, I, I think a lot of the, the cringe is removed.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  What are small examples of how do I make these things known? And how do I also be sure that I even know what are the things that I'm supposed to be advancing?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  I mean, there's so much to unpack there.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  And before we jump into tactics, because I think that's so tempting, right? And, and I love action.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  And I, I love imperfect action. It's worth taking, you know, two hours a quarter. And I know that, and that might sound crazy, right? Like you want me to spend two hours thinking about my career? But I'm going to remind everyone that you for sure spend two hours on social media every single day. So spending two hours solely dedicated to thinking about your career.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Is not too much to ask for.

• 38:33Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  And in that time, you're going to really consider what the organization's priorities are, and you're going to consider a few models that you have at that organization. Right? So who is being rewarded for doing great work?

• 38:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  And what are the important projects? And if you cannot ladder up to those important projects and show your contribution.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  And if you cannot display the attributes that are important to that organization, you're going to struggle to advance.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  So that's the strategy, right? Who's doing great work and what are those characteristics that are being rewarded? And what are the projects that move the organization forward? And how do I be a part of them? Once, once you've got that template, then I think you can start doing tactical things. So, um, the time to share your achievements is way before the review.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  You know, you need to be, you're in that quarter, you're going to decide, okay, what have I done? And what are some of the visuals that help demonstrate that I've done that? So if there is a quarterly business review and people are coming together, how, how do I be the one that is sharing results?

• 39:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Because we're going to remember the person that, that shared them, even if they're not directly responsible for them. So the person that volunteers to talk out loud, deals with the pain, but they also receive the fruit.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  That's true. You do also a lot of teaching about designing a reputation. And how can you think about, just even at the basic level, Monday through Friday, whether you're working at a retail store? Or you're working, you know, at a small business, or you're, you're in a career at a big hospital? Like, how do you want us to think about this?

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Maybe it's the brand marketer in me, right? Like, that's my background. And so I've grown up really comfortable with the idea that brands have attributes associated with them.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  I don't want to keep giving, um, Coke all, all this free advertising to Coca-Cola, but you know, when I say Coke, it's open happiness, it's refreshment. Those are the attributes associated with Coke.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  That's true. If you think about Ford pickup trucks versus GMC, one feels one way, another feels another way. If you think about Nike versus Reebok, or Dunkin versus Starbucks, like there's attributes to every single brand out there. And how does that relate to your reputation as a person?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  So I guess because I've always lived in this brand building world, it comes really naturally to me, but the more students I meet, the more I realize like, oh, it's not that natural. And who I think it's least natural to are people that are older. So dealing in demographics is a, is a tricky thing, right? I don't want to just say, you know, if you're, if you're older, this isn't natural to you. But for a long time, we worked at companies for many years.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Right? So I, I'm somewhere for 20 years, 30 years. And now the average job tenure is hovering around three to four years.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  If you're a young person just starting out, it might be closer to two. And so you can't count on being at a company and being this, you know, known entity for 20 years, you're going to be moving around a lot. And so you need a portable reputation. And that's really where the idea of personal brand comes from. If you have to go from one company to the next, you know, what, what can you bring with you? And that's why I do think having an online presence is helpful. Every meeting you go to, every potential customer, um, every interview, I promise you, they are looking you up.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  In fact, the data suggests that 98% of the time, somebody is going to look you up before they have a meeting with you. What, what's going to be there when they look you up?

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  You, and you, you have a chance to create a quick little calling card on LinkedIn that explains, here's who I am, here are the kind of problems that I have solved in the past.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  And here, you know, here, here's my, here's my brand, here's my reputation. So is it that you're an innovative thinker? Is it that you're tech savvy? Is it that you're resourceful? Is it that you're great at startups? I want to land there and I want you to tell me what you know how to do in three seconds.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  How do I do that? Based on the photos and the titles and?

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes, yes.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  A good test is, so if you want someone to know that you are an amazing film editor.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  And that you help small brands, uh, I should know that within three seconds. Ask somebody to take a look at that and say, hey, in three seconds, what's your takeaway? And if they're not there yet, you haven't done it. And again, I want to highlight that this is not about you bragging. This is about you showing what kind of problems you solve.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  And what kind of person people can expect you to be?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  So that's a portable reputation. Are there other ways you want us to think about just building a reputation? Or having a type of brand or attributes that you like are creating?

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Um, okay. I am thinking about two students that have stuck with me.

• 44:02Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  And something that they did.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  So, okay. At least once a semester, so this is more like a category, I will have a student come up to me after the first day of class and they will look at me in the eyes and they will say, what do I have to do to be successful in this class? In the past, when you have had students excel and get one of the As, what have they done to get them? Just tell me what success looks like and I will do that for you. And I promise you, Mel, those are the students that always get one of the As.

• 44:36Speaker 00

  That is so genius. Like just stop and ask yourself, honestly, on the first day of any job that you've ever had, have you ever asked the person that hired you?

• 44:51Speaker 00

  Please tell me exactly what I need to do and how I need to behave in order to be wildly successful working for you and wildly successful within that company. And that person will tell you exactly what to do. That is the best advice I've ever heard.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Okay, so.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Coming from a 20 year old student.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  So I, yeah, so it happens once a semester, one student, okay, I teach about 250. Okay, one, one of them will do this and I will tell them. Nobody asks.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  And then you sit around and guess, and then you're mad at your boss, and then you're mad that you're not noticed.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  And you can just ask.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Okay, the other one that's blown me away. I had a student, um, who wanted to be a teaching assistant for me. And I always have more people that want to be TAs than there are spots. So I have a student reach out and she writes, I was in this class, this section, right? Because again, she knows I'm teaching 250 students a semester. And she said, these are the grades that I received in your class. And I wrote the case that you shared as the example. And when we did this class, I was the one that shared that example. And I am now in the top 5% of this. And then this is the part that got me. And she said, I understand that the job is grading papers and I still want that job.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I'm hoping I have access to your research, but I understand that the way to be helpful to you is by grading papers. Hired, please. Because everybody else, they come and they tell me, I want to do the sexy projects. I want to do the sexy research. And here was a person that actually said, here's the part of your job that's really hard, I'm going to help you with it.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  Wow. I'm just thinking about even how this relates to families? How it relates to friendship? You're dating somebody and you're just getting to know the family, like asking the person, tell me how to be successful with your family.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  That's it. Yes, just ask the right question and people will be helpful.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  That's fantastic. I don't know about you, but I'm taking notes. I mean, Professor Cooley is on fire and I love the specific strategies that she has shared with both you and me, strategies that are going to help you break through. So let's take a quick pause though, and give our sponsors a chance to share a few words. If Professor Cooley is saying something that is really resonating or hitting home for you, it is definitely going to hit home for somebody that you love too. So send them this episode and don't go anywhere because she has a lot more to teach you when we return. Stay with me.

• 47:38Speaker 00

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• 49:28Speaker 02

  Yes, it's the ultimate aha moment.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  This is at Sphere.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  I want people to come along and experience consistent aha moments of awe, wonder, and joy.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Aha, April 2nd through the 4th, live at Sphere. A call to wonder, to joy, and the ultimate aha. Visit ahaalive.com for pre-sale signup and travel packages. Your mind is going to be blown.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  The data suggests that 98% of the time, somebody is going to look you up before they have a meeting with you. So what's going to be there when they look you up?

• 50:09Speaker 00

  That was business school professor Marina Cooley. She's an award-winning professor at Emory University, and she's here today to teach us how to stand out, get people's attention, and get better at putting yourself and your ideas out there in the world. So Professor Cooley, how do you want us to think about putting ourselves out there online?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, number one, you have to show up. Tell me, okay, you do a lot of speaking.

• 50:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  I'm guessing sometimes it happens virtually. Is that right?

• 50:38Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, I don't do a lot in person these days because I just don't have time to travel.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Okay, so you talk to big audiences virtually. How many cameras are on?

• 50:46Speaker 00

  Oh, that I see?

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 00

  Maybe the person interviewing me.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  So I would, I would guess that of the 300 people that are on this big call, four have their cameras on. Have your camera on and look professional.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  I wouldn't even, like, it wouldn't even occur to me not to.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  I know, but I very rarely attend a call where people have their cameras on. And then the same people are wondering why they don't have visibility in an organization and how can they make their presence known when they're working virtually? Well, number one, turn your camera on.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  Okay. Number two, now what do I do?

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Um, number two, the greatest mistake we do in having this meeting culture, right? It's meeting, and then I run to the next meeting, and then I'm five minutes late, and then the other meeting.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  And we never take this, this assessment of what is my day? And what meetings will I be at? And who will be there that could potentially be interested in the achievements that I have made to my company lately, right? What are the projects I'm working on that, again, are high visibility? What are the characteristics I have that the company values? So this idea of coming to a meeting with a good understanding of who will be there and what is that one or two nuggets that you're going to slip in? Mel, nobody does that. Everyone just bumbles around. They, they come in, what are we doing here? What's the goal? If you're the person that knows the goal and also has thought through

• 52:16Speaker 01

  what are the one or two things that I am going to get into this meeting, you will be ahead of 98% of people.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  This is one of those pieces of gold that is right under your nose. And I'm going to, I'm going to give you an example. So if you were to go to a meeting with a person where you're doing an interview for your dream job, of course, you would prepare. Of course, you would think about what you wanted to say. If you were pitching a client, of course, you would think about what you want. If you were going to a meeting with a brand who wanted to potentially pay you money to make videos, of course, you would think about it.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  And what you're saying is if you want to get ahead at work, take 10 minutes in the morning and look at the meeting schedule.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  And say to yourself, is there anybody important in this meeting? And do I want to plant a seed that could start to grow? And do I need to put the ring light on and maybe do my hair? So I don't have my dog running around in the back and I'm sitting here in my pajamas? And another, I think, piece of gold right underneath our nose is that if you're running a meeting, I recently started working with this person who starts every meeting by pulling up a slide and going, let me remind everybody why we're here.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  And here's the two things we're going to be talking about. And every time they do it, I just exhale and go, oh, my God, you're the most organized person I've ever seen in my entire...

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Do you want to work with that person?

• 53:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Is, so is it that complicated?

• 53:49Speaker 00

  No.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  It's, that's what I mean. You show up and you are the one that is composed and you have it together.

• 53:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  And that is, that, that's unique. Um, okay, two more. One is to actually come to a meeting early.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  So if you're, if you're a younger person.

• 54:06Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  And what I've realized is that the people at the top, the people that, and that's, that sounds very crass, but people that could eventually be your mentors or stakeholders that help you actually have a little more control of your schedule than people at mid-level and entry level.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  And they tend to come to meetings early.

• 54:27Speaker 00

  Really?

• 54:27Speaker 01

  I, yes. Usually they even have a handler, right? That is moving them along and making sure that they get to the place that they need to get to. And if you're the one that is also there a little bit early, it's a one-on-one for three minutes.

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Right? And you've got your little nugget prepared.

• 54:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  And, you know, hey, I just started here two months ago, and I love that one of our corporate initiatives is this, and I'm, and I'm already getting a chance to touch that, right? So that's something small. Number two, I think you can go to the office more than prescribed. So let's assume you are in a hybrid situation. Uh, again, it's, it's generational. So there's going to be a midlife generation, mid-level manager, who's not going to the office a lot because they're in the, you know, thick of it with having children and caretaking, you know, the sandwich responsibilities that we have.

• 55:17Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  And then there's the entry level person, and then there's senior leaders. I think senior leaders are still very much going to the office. And so, okay, fine, they tell you, you only have to show up on Wednesdays, but what if you're the one that shows up Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays? You get so much face time, and that, that's how you stand out.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  Well, it's also how you get all kinds of responsibilities because you're sitting right there.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  You're sitting right there, yes.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  And when you're sitting there, you're going to dress for the job that you want to have. And that is like, that's the oldest advice in the book.

• 55:55Speaker 00

  One of the things that I, that I think a lot about is the fact that there's a ton of people entering the workforce, whether it is people in their twenties who did college kind of remote because of the pandemic, or they're entering a job mark that's hybrid, or maybe you've got somebody who's going back to work after raising kids. And when you go through these periods where you've not been in person, or you have been working retail or a bartending job, and then all of a sudden you get, you know, like a more corporate, professional job, there is this just...

• 56:32Speaker 00

  Kind of confidence that you lack and you feel behind because you're not used to sharing your ideas in a meeting. You're not used to kind of self-starting and, and just taking control. There's this behavior that I see in a lot of people of sitting around, waiting to be sure or waiting to be told what to do versus taking the initiative and pushing through to use your word, that cringey or uncomfortable feeling that, uh, what if I get it wrong? What if I look stupid? What if this? What if that? Can you talk a little

• 57:11Speaker 00

  bit about that and talk to the person that feels like they just are very uncomfortable putting themselves out there in a work environment?

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Preparedness will do wonders, knowing what is the agenda? Who is there? What are we there for? I have one or two things that I've already thought of. Um, just that will give you so much confidence. So invest the morning 10 minutes, reap the benefits all day. And I, as an introvert, relate deeply and for a long time. And, and I still do to a certain extent, live under, you don't need to talk if you don't have something relevant or new to say. And, and I, and I have to stand by that. I cannot talk just to have myself heard. And so what helped me so much was doing some advanced notes.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Just so that I could pull out. So if we were talking about, you know, launching a new brand deal, having a little bit of research about, well, what are other brand deals? You know, maybe with like a nice statistic like that. Well, that increased results by 32%.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  That's a great idea. If you are introverted or you have a lot of self doubt and fear about having the attention on you or having to speak in public and not setting yourself up so that you have to both have words come out of your mouth and manage fear at the same time, is a massive tip. And so the preparation ahead of time takes care of the words. And one thing I would add to it is that in life, there are no extra points if you recite the words. In life, it is wonderful. When I see somebody pull out an index card and when

• 59:08Speaker 00

  they want to say something, they say, I have something I want to share and I, I brought some notes because I wanted to make sure I got it right. When you hold up the index card and you say, I brought some notes and I want to read you some of the things that I, you know, wanted to share. I go, that person's prepared. That person did some research and this person wants to get it right. And I want to pick up on something else that you said, because I realize that there's a couple of people that work for me that do this. And I didn't realize that they were doing this. And it works like a charm and you just recommended it. So I wanted to be sure, for those of you that are introverted or starting out in a new company or new career, this is a fabulous way to come up with something

• 59:48Speaker 00

  to research or contribute. Anytime you research what the competition is doing, anytime you look into the industry that you're in and you say, hey, I don't know, you guys probably saw the article in the New York Times or, did you know, I just read this, you know, and Consumer Reports that buying is down 15% with this demographic? I think it's an important thing to consider. When you come in and say, I looked at what the realtor down the road was doing. I heard what the hospital down the street is doing. You could be on your third day of work and if I'm the manager, I spin around and I'm like, where have you been all this time? Thank God you're here. What else can you, like amazing, find

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  out more. And so that piece of advice works for everybody. And it's something that you can do in situations where you either feel too junior or you don't quite understand the culture yet, because we all want to know what the competition is doing. We all want to know what's being written about the things that we're talking about. So that's a fantastic piece of advice. One of the things I would love to have you talk about is just the fact that the job market is so brutal right now. And learning how to amplify yourself and learning how to be a sticky candidate and to break through is absolutely essential.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  And so Professor Cooley, what do you believe the skills are that actually matter? And what are some things you want anyone that is looking for a job or thinking about changing jobs? What do they need to know in order to stand out and get hired?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  I want to start by saying, I know that the job market is brutal because that's what every headline says and that's what our job numbers indicate. But I also want to say that this is certainly not the first time that we've had a bad job market. And I believe that if you can be resourceful, if you can network effectively and take help from anywhere that you can get it, if you can demonstrate that you are tech savvy, and then I saved the best for last, I think the thing that is lacking and we know it is critical reasoning. And if you can be someone that demonstrates, I think, I foresee

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  the problems we're going to face and I solve them before they happen. I do not immediately ask a question. I try to answer it myself. I am a critical thinker. You will rise to the top.

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  I agree. I agree. The other thing I wanted to say, as somebody that is, you know, running a company and hiring people, I once read a statistic, and I believe that this is true. I once read a statistic, 80% of jobs that people are gonna hire, aren't even listed somewhere. Because the people that are working are too busy to write the job description. We probably have 10 to 12 jobs that we need filled and we have not had time to just stop and figure out the job description. And so the reason why I'm telling you that is because part of it is, yes, apply, apply, apply, apply, be sticky,

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  follow the stuff that Professor Cooley is talking about, manage your portable reputation. But you will find a job by talking to people. Because there are more jobs out there than you realize. And a lot of them are not listed yet. A lot of them are inside companies where they don't know they need the person yet. And you might know a person who knows a person that can get you there. And so it's not about sitting home and mindlessly hitting submit. It's about getting your rear end out of the house and talking to people.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Best advice. Wholeheartedly agree. And I think it's because we like sure things, right? Like, I, I want to see job online. I want to submit something. And then I want to tell myself I just completed an action, right? It's like, check, check, check. Like, that's, that's the template of applying for a job. When really, it's the, I'm gonna dream out loud. I'm gonna amplify because I know what I want. So, like you said, you're growing like crazy. You have so many needs. What if I were a person that wanted to break

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  into this space? I believed in your mission and I wrote to you, right? And I wrote to everyone on your team and I said, these, these are my skillsets. Like, yes, I'm 50, but like, a lot of your audience is too, and I know that audience. And I know how to show up and I know how to have energy. These are the 10 books I've read. These are the next 10 guests I think you should have. Like, how blown away would you be?

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  And another thing you can do is you could actually do the work and say, I pulled this together. I think I could do, and I've edited this or I've done that or I've written this. Check it out. And demonstrate what you can do.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Demonstrate.

• 1:05:14Speaker 00

  You know, as a business school professor, I'd also love to hear your take on the skills that you think are going to become more valuable as AI is rapidly changing the workforce. It's changing the way people work. What do you think the most important and valuable skills are going to become?

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think you're hitting on a really important note, which is that you can't ignore it. And so the best way is to get comfortable. So all of the different tasks that you are currently doing, I think each of them deserves an experiment to see whether AI can be a tool to save time. And the more tools that you can play with, the less that you will be scared and the more competent that you will sound. Okay. But the flip side of that for sure, is that critical thinking will be the most rare skillset. It is so easy, right? And we love easy, right? I want, I want abs in a week. Um, I want to be able to run a marathon, you know, after training for 20 days. Like, I want it easy.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  And now there's this tool, right? Write my emails for me. Schedule my vacation for me. Um, create the strategy deck for me. Create my content social calendar for me.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Will you know how to think?

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  More importantly, if that's the only thing you can do, within six months, AI can do that without you.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:44Speaker 00

  So not actually understanding what you're talking about is a one-way ticket to no job. How do you develop critical thinking skills?

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  I mean, it's hard. It's I'm trying to solve a problem and I'm going to stop inputs from coming in and I'm going to think about how I could solve that problem. So no aids, quiet time, turn off, right? And that that has to do, I think, critical reasoning and attention span are very, very closely intertwined. And so the person that can control their attention span will unlock critical reasoning.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  You have given us so many incredibly specific things to do and to think about. And I have so many people in my life I want to send this to. And Professor Cooley, if you have just one thing that you think is the most important thing for the person listening to do of everything that you're talking about, what do you think the one action that is critical to take?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  You need to know what you want before you can ask for what you want. We often say time is your greatest resource. And I think the modern day version of that is that your attention is your greatest resource. And everybody wants your attention so much that often you don't place it on the right things because you're so distracted. So I know that I am a content marketing professor who, you know, wants you on your phone, but actually, a lot of the magic happens off your phone.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  So the first thing to do is to put it down and take a really good look at what kind of life you want. If there are things you want to do, like open a jewelry store, or switch careers, or get that VP title, if there are things that you want, you're going to have to take the time and attention to make a plan.

• 1:09:00Speaker 00

  What are your parting words?

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  I think they'll be slightly unrelated to this topic, but I wholeheartedly mean them, and that is to get a hobby.

• 1:09:09Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  In this modern, overwhelming world, we have so many obligations. And it's right, it's either the work or the finding ways to accelerate at work. It's the family, like whether it's young or old, there is so much duty in our lives. One way to go off duty is to to do a hobby. So fall in love with something and give yourself a third identity, which takes a lot of the pressure off all of those other things. So create a self that is outside of duty. And as a bonus, I think you'll realize that when you try a new hobby, you will without a doubt make a real idiot of yourself.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  And that practice of looking stupid in front of people will go on to serve you when we talk about all of these other ways of putting yourself out there. It is like, it is the practice.

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  You know what else I love about that is the second that you said duty, I kind of felt like my shoulders drop a little bit. And when you said hobby, all of a sudden, you invited play in.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:22Speaker 00

  You shifted our focus away from all these things that we feel like we have to do, and self-promotion is hard, and hobby is for play. But what I also love about it, and it's very sneaky of you, is that it tracks back to sticky ideas, because hobbies make you interesting.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely, they do.

• 1:10:39Speaker 00

  And it gives you something to talk about. It gives you something that brings you joy, gives you something that helps you connect to other people, it helps make you memorable. And when you're doing something interesting, that's interesting to you, now all of a sudden, you've got something that's kind of cool that might be interesting to other people, too. Professor Marina Cooley, I just want to thank you, thank you, thank you for hopping on a plane and coming here to our Boston studios. I know that this advice is going to make such a big difference in so many people's lives.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  And I also want to thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to something that is going to help you get promoted, get hired, get paid more, and help you amplify yourself, dream out loud, and push yourself through all the things that are holding you back so you can actually get what you want. And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you today as your friend, that I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And learning how to define what you want and how to ask for it, there's no doubt, it's going to help you do exactly that. Alrighty, I will see you in the very next episode. I will welcome you in the moment you hit play.

• 1:12:03Speaker 03

  So you notice everyone in the office is like dressed the same today? Did you notice that?

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Why is that? Did you make a fun video?

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  We had a birthday party for Mel.

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  I just did that, and all of a sudden, I got like

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:12:16Speaker 00

  Something in my throat. Hold on one second. How do I say it? At Goizueta? Goizueta, okay, got it. Professor Marina Cooley is an award-winning business school professor at Goizueta Emory School, did I say Goizueta? Goizueta, Emory University's business. At Goizueta, Emory University Business School. And today, you have a seat in her classroom. You know what I need? I need to, I need to go to the bathroom. Is that okay? Is that all right? Okay, great. All right. Awesome.

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:13:32Speaker 00

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