Ep. 910: Steve Eats Narwhal, Wetlands in Distress, and Wag Bags!

The MeatEater Crew discuss: Steve’s News Flash from the Arctic; Open Fields case in Pennsylvania; pen-raised pheasants in Montana; wolf corrections; pooping in bags; wolf corrections; possible changes to wetlands; and more! Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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• 1:41Speaker 05

  Welcome to the news show. Today, we're gonna make Nate read a correction on his wolf coverage. Then we're gonna go get into a big change for game wardens in Pennsylvania. Randall is gonna explore people packing out their own poop. Cal is here to talk about some big trouble with wetlands. And finally, we're gonna hit a possible expansion to a controversial pheasant stocking program here in Montana. With that, we're on to the news.

• 2:12Speaker 05

  Okay, you might have noticed that Steve Rinella is not sitting in this seat. Thank God. Oh. Yeah, we don't know where he is. Actually, Steve is off doing a super cool filming project way up north. So he's gonna miss the next couple of shows. But he did send us a video to check in with us and let us know what's going on up there, up there where he's at. Phil, you got that video? Yeah, I'll take a look.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  Okay, we have, we have, we have a news flash from, none of it. I'm here with Dirt.

• 2:46Speaker 04

  And our friend Avery is cutting up. Hello. Can you explain, but I'll explain what you're doing, but tell everybody the, tell everybody the Inuit words. So I'm cutting up allangwa or dugalik, which is narwhal. And this was a couple of days ago in Pond Inlet, North Baffin. So now. But look at the skin on that thing.

• 3:09Speaker 04

  You would think that was like a made, like a, like a marble countertop. The skin on that thing. And you're cutting it, sorry, but I just wanted to comment on the wildness of that skin. So now I'm just cutting off the fat, the blubber. Because if you have too much, you might get a stomachache. Oh, really? Yeah. And then I'm cubing it.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  And I prefer the cut smaller. I find it tastes better, but everyone has their own preference. You're almost cutting through.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  So I'm just cutting the hard part.

• 3:57Speaker 05

  People prefer. That's a cool tool. Cut different depths. Well, do you mind telling everybody, do you mind telling everybody what that is?

• 4:04Speaker 04

  This one's keelaluka, beluga, the skin and the blubber. And that's a, that's a frozen chunk of caribou, which you just eat like that. Yeah. And they're cooking up, see, can you go check out those seal ribs, Warren?

• 4:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  These are clams.

• 4:22Speaker 05

  Wow, they got it all there.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  We're back. Oh, this is the only man in the planet who I have ever met who had a king eider for a pet.

• 4:39Speaker 04

  Pea, no. Peaty? Yeah. Yeah. And that refers, it's dried Arctic char, but that refers to how it's cut.

• 4:46Speaker 05

  Steve speaks Spanish the same way.

• 4:48Speaker 04

  Okay, so it doesn't mean that it's cut that way? Smoked Arctic char. That's Arctic char, that's a big Arctic char. Yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  And that. And caribou fat. Caribou fat. And some more over here. And this is a crazy one right here, get a look at that. That's broccoli. See right there, they have a.

• 5:10Speaker 04

  They walk down, our, our, our host here, they can walk down and they run a net across that little bay, that little inlet right there and catch char out of a little gill net. We were down there last night and they had six char, which is, that's the ones you have, right, from that, from that net there?

• 5:31Speaker 04

  Okay, you ready, Dirt?

• 5:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, let's go.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  I already tried it. You already tried it?

• 5:34Speaker 05

  I haven't tried it.

• 5:38Speaker 04

  What is it? Narwhal.

• 5:41Speaker 05

  Well, Dirt's not the most adventurous eater either.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 05

  They chew it, they're not expecting it. They're really good.

• 5:53Speaker 04

  That's good.

• 5:54Speaker 05

  That is really good.

• 5:55Speaker 04

  Can I try just a pure chunk of that fat? Like, how bad could it be?

• 6:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know. Man, what's that gonna do to anybody?

• 6:04Speaker 05

  Ignoring the warnings of locals to not do it. He's gonna poop his pants.

• 6:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I mean, what would be, something bad would happen, just being that. Well, if you have a lot of it, you're gonna get a stomachache. Well, I can picture that.

• 6:16Speaker 05

  That is good.

• 6:19Speaker 04

  That's better.

• 6:20Speaker 05

  Straight up.

• 6:21Speaker 04

  Try that, man.

• 6:22Speaker 05

  Can I get a little sliver?

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Yeah. That's good. Dirt is gonna try just the pure fat, which I think is the, is the good way to go.

• 6:30Speaker 05

  Narwhal with skin was good. If it's better than that, hot dog.

• 6:36Speaker 04

  Or do you mind, while we're making this news segment, if we try the beluga, a little piece of beluga?

• 6:43Speaker 04

  This is breaking news.

• 6:46Speaker 05

  Steve's right, that is delicious.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  That's better.

• 6:49Speaker 05

  Are they dipping in soy sauce?

• 6:51Speaker 04

  Well, no, but that's just like, like melts, melts in your mouth.

• 6:56Speaker 05

  Chad was saying it's, it's good, it's thawed out, but I feel like.

• 7:02Speaker 05

  Do you like a raw?

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Oh, look at that.

• 7:06Speaker 04

  Beluga.

• 7:09Speaker 04

  You like the same cutting method? Mm-hmm. Okay.

• 7:18Speaker 04

  Do people, like, is it generally accepted that narwhal is better, beluga's better? Or is it just up to you?

• 7:30Speaker 04

  Up to the person. Growing up, I loved beluga more than narwhal. Okay. But now I prefer narwhal more than beluga. Because of what happened? Just, I like the taste better with narwhal. For me, I like narwhal more because in my hometown, we have deeper waters and we don't really get belugas. So it's like different. When you're used to narwhal, it, like, you become proud of it. It's like, oh, that's from our home. And so like last, a few summers ago, they had a bunch of belugas come into our bay, which is rare. And hunters caught them, but they were like of the meat, so they sent it all here. Because they're used to narwhal.

• 8:13Speaker 04

  It's just what they're used to.

• 8:22Speaker 05

  Geez, we're getting a whole dang meat eater episode here. He wants a moway? Big time, his favorite.

• 8:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, if you're listening to this, you should just hop on YouTube and watch it. Can you taste the difference? While you're driving. That's tough, both are very good.

• 8:41Speaker 05

  But there is more fat.

• 8:41Speaker 04

  Am I right that beluga's softer?

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Well, this one is softer because it's not an adult beluga. Oh, so there's variability from age. What are you working on there?

• 8:55Speaker 04

  This is the hulap.

• 8:59Speaker 04

  So I'm just gonna light it to welcome you guys. Um, and so this was our main source of heat and light. Um, also to dry the men's clothing.

• 9:21Speaker 06

  And you seal oil?

• 9:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, traditionally it would be with seal oil or beluga.

• 9:26Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 9:27Speaker 04

  You would render it down. Um.

• 9:32Speaker 04

  And then.

• 9:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, so.

• 9:40Speaker 04

  Now we just use whatever oils available.

• 9:43Speaker 06

  Got it.

• 9:44Speaker 04

  Um, cause it's easier and it's less stinky. Yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 06

  Oh, there you go. I see you guys going. Ladies and gentlemen, we're, um, that's the news flash from none of it and, and, um, can, can you guys teach us how to say so long suckers or goodbye in a nook?

• 10:05Speaker 04

  There's no real word for goodbye. Um, there's like see you, see you later.

• 10:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, hit us with that.

• 10:11Speaker 04

  Like see you later. Or conecto que. Yeah. Conecto que. Conecto. See you in the future.

• 10:18Speaker 06

  See you in the future.

• 10:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:19Speaker 06

  All right. See you in the future. Yeah. That's good.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  You.

• 10:25Speaker 06

  Okay, one of the, this is a second, this is a long goodbye. It's a long goodbye. I was trying to understand, like, I'm trying to understand how to say, how to name the language. Inuk.

• 10:36Speaker 04

  Inuktitut.

• 10:37Speaker 06

  Inuktitut?

• 10:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:39Speaker 06

  Okay. So to say goodbye and one more time to say goodbye in a nook.

• 10:44Speaker 04

  Inuktitut.

• 10:45Speaker 06

  Toot, oh, tutu. A nook tutu.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:51Speaker 06

  Say goodbye. See you later.

• 10:54Speaker 04

  Oh, she likes.

• 10:54Speaker 06

  See you later. So what was the one?

• 10:56Speaker 04

  Conecto que. See you later.

• 11:00Speaker 06

  Goodbye. See you later.

• 11:05Speaker 05

  All right, there you go. There's the news, uh, from the great white north from, from old Steve Bernella. Um, Cal. Brody. You've been a dad for a couple of months now. What's that like? You got some advice for our soon to be dad Nate over there? Well, yes, uh, you know, today's a good day to do it cause my morning started at three forty-five. My, my day, I'm well into my day. It's around three forty-five AM. Um, and my biggest. So everybody's, uh, wealth of knowledge, right? And they're always like, oh yeah, here's all the things, but don't worry about it. I forgot all the baby stuff. I don't, I can't remember any of it. Um. Phil, can you remember any of the baby stuff? Oh no, wiped it from my, uh, my mind. Yeah.

• 11:48Speaker 05

  My thing that nobody mentioned.

• 11:53Speaker 05

  And I was not prepared for, um, but this is all like, well, of course that's the way it is stuff, but.

• 12:01Speaker 05

  Hmm, like I've run into many people. Who are like baby crazy right now. And they're like, well, this is how it's gonna be. And I'm like, oh, that's funny. Uh, the thing that you need to have, like be, just be mentally prepared for Nate. Is the fact that you are gonna be fully consumed with this, uh, little parasite. And it is demanding. And you have very little grace as to when this thing needs what it needs. Um, and you'll be consumed with like satiating those needs. There will be zero.

• 12:42Speaker 05

  Recognition of you whatsoever. Hmm. So it's not like, you're not being thanked. It's like you, you're just a non, you're just a thing that shows up and does the thing. And there is no recognition of you at all. Hmm. Not for a while. Not at all.

• 13:00Speaker 06

  By the wife, by the baby.

• 13:02Speaker 05

  There's no recognition of mom from the baby, right? And, and like we're full breastfeeding. So you would think that there would be like some recognition and there's just not.

• 13:14Speaker 06

  Like the kid doesn't nod and say like, appreciate you.

• 13:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:17Speaker 06

  That was a good one.

• 13:18Speaker 05

  Until next time.

• 13:19Speaker 06

  Who could have guessed?

• 13:20Speaker 05

  I imagine there's something going on in there that the baby is not capable of communicating at this point. But I, I see what you're saying. But there's no, like, they can't even hardly see, right? They're like, not really, they're seeing like. Shapes and some colors and things, but they're not seeing. They're not gonna give you a, ah dad, you're the best. Thanks, man. And. Which right is like, oh, of course they're not gonna do that. But like being able to be like, oh, you. Mm-hmm. Would kind of be nice, right? And all the, all the girls that are all like. Twitter painted with having babies. They're like, oh, well, we read that there's this bond that's established. And I'm like, cool, you can't see it, you can't smell it. But if that book tells you it's there, you better hang on to it.

• 14:05Speaker 05

  Because this thing is gonna, like, it's.

• 14:09Speaker 06

  It's gonna chew you up and spit you out.

• 14:11Speaker 05

  Yep. And then. About nine days ago. It was like, almost like a call and response. Like the kid's like, oh, I'm tracking you and here's a smile. That is not related to the kid taking a poop. And you're like, oh.

• 14:31Speaker 05

  I needed that. And the, and it's like, oh, it, it is, there is a human in there, right? Exactly, exactly. Cause I'm fully like.

• 14:42Speaker 05

  Never had anything against kids, right? But like the whole time. Good thing. I'm like.

• 14:49Speaker 05

  I'm like, I'm just not impressed with the human child, right? I'm like, antelope can get up and sprint. Mm-hmm. In, you know, twelve hours. Mm-hmm. Like, like this thing is so helpless. Helpless, yeah. Yeah, like the only thing it's got going for it is it is portable and packable. I think that's how we got to where we are today. Is you can pick up, pick it up and run. There you go Nate. What do you think about that?

• 15:14Speaker 06

  That's good advice. Uh, I had not read that yet.

• 15:16Speaker 05

  Yeah. So that is, that is the thing. You just need to be mentally prepared. Like there's a lot of like. Wonderful things about it, but just be prepared for the fact that.

• 15:25Speaker 06

  For the sheer ingratitude.

• 15:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 06

  This child.

• 15:27Speaker 05

  Yep. There is no recognition of you whatsoever. Yep. Yep.

• 15:31Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 15:32Speaker 05

  And you're gonna be doing all this, you know. You'll, you'll do whatever it takes to like soothe that thing. And, uh, you know, you get way down the no sleep trail and it's, you're like, I'm putting in serious effort here. And this thing is only gonna respond negatively the next time it needs something. Right?

• 15:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 05

  Right? And then you get smiles. And then eventually, um, you know, I think we'll get some laughs, which will be super cool. And we were just talking this morning that like, I'm really looking forward. To this thing tasting real food. Hmm. Yeah, man. That I, I know it's cliche, but. Time flies. Like I, I can't even like, I can hardly like. Remember the details of the baby thing. But like now I got a couple of hunting buddies. Yep. And pretty soon those hunting buddies will be off to college. Sad, man. Goes fast. Yeah, yeah. I said, I, I mean, I'm looking forward to like the teaching. Yeah.

• 16:35Speaker 05

  Moment. I think it's fantastic to have a puppy at the exact same time. Which everybody's like, oh, you guys are stupid, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well. The puppy is instant gratification. Right. Right? You get that puppy home, you feed it one time and it is like, oh my God, I love you. You're the best thing ever. You teach the puppy. It's like, oh, this is great.

• 16:59Speaker 05

  And then there's the baby and you're like.

• 17:01Speaker 06

  Staring at you with dead glassy eyes.

• 17:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, one day this will pay off. Like, so it's instant gratification next to long, long-term payout.

• 17:08Speaker 06

  That's, that's, it's like diversifying.

• 17:10Speaker 05

  Yes, exactly.

• 17:11Speaker 06

  There you go. That's great advice. A hot take. I like it. Thank you.

• 17:15Speaker 05

  I knew Cal would have a unique take on that situation. All right, it's time to move on to your news.

• 17:26Speaker 05

  There we go. I like that sound. Hmm, pigeon flying into a bar.

• 17:30Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, yeah, that's what I was, that's what I was going for.

• 17:32Speaker 05

  Or it is a shot.

• 17:33Speaker 06

  The jail door just clanks.

• 17:35Speaker 05

  Your news brought to you by these here banished suppressors. Um. I know we talked a little bit about these in the last show, maybe. Um. These things, speaking of kids, like. These things are awesome. If you've got, if you've got some youngsters shooting big game rifles, um. The noise, the recoil reduction, it's, it's just makes life a lot easier, uh, for kids shooting, shooting, uh, big game rifles. So another reason to get one. Nate, you've got some, you've got some explaining to do on your

• 18:10Speaker 06

  I do. I do. Phil, if you don't mind pulling up that chart for our listeners, what we're looking at is the Dunning Kruger effect or Dunning Kruger curve. And on the Y axis, you've got confidence from low to high. And on the right axis, or the X axis, you've got competence from knowing nothing to a guru. And essentially what this curve is showing is that when you first start learning about something, you have extremely high confidence. You think you know what you're talking about, but you actually don't. And then you reach this peak, which labeled here is the peak of Mount Stupid. When you realize you don't actually know anything and you go down that curve to the valley of despair. And you realize, I don't know anything about this situation and I'm going to try to learn.

• 18:52Speaker 05

  Now, are we talking about you here?

• 18:54Speaker 06

  Yes, I'm on this curve.

• 18:56Speaker 05

  What are you, where are you at?

• 18:59Speaker 06

  I would say, based on the listener emails we got on my wolf coverage, I'm slowly cresting the peak of Mount Stupid. And I'm realizing I don't know anything about this topic.

• 19:09Speaker 03

  I thought you were in the valley of despair.

• 19:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think I've entered the valley of despair over the last couple of days.

• 19:14Speaker 05

  Yeah. So not even climbing out of it yet?

• 19:16Speaker 06

  Just starting to climb.

• 19:18Speaker 05

  All right.

• 19:18Speaker 06

  And it's a, it's a tall mountain.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  Carry on.

• 19:20Speaker 06

  And so we got a bunch of emails. I think the best one was from Dave. And I'll read it out. Hello there. My name is Dave. My father and I were the first to have wolf depredations in Colorado. I enjoy listening to your podcast and I believe you do a very good job of being as accurate as possible. Regarding your conversation about wolves frequently predating on cattle, where a quote credible source claims that the ranchers were baiting. Uh, John Smith, not his real name.

• 19:44Speaker 05

  Let's be clear. He's talking about baiting wolves in.

• 19:47Speaker 06

  Causing intentional conflict is what I said.

• 19:49Speaker 05

  To get a depredation claim on, on cattle.

• 19:53Speaker 06

  John Smith, not his real name, is who I assume your source is, as he's the one who started that rumor, did a site evaluation on the ranch that he accused of baiting prior to those accusations, and said they were taking all necessary steps to avoid conflict. He later changed his opinion when he was unable to reduce conflict as he was hired by the state to do so. I can say from personal experiences that with, with that individual, that he was only interested in getting us to stop talking to the press and not so much about conflict mitigation. I will admit, he was handed an impossible task, but he handled the failure poorly. Furthermore, the Copper Creek pack showed a much larger interest in cattle than other packs in the state. They continue to do so when they were moved to another part of the state. Unless your stance is that the ranchers are only baiting this pack everywhere they go

• 20:37Speaker 06

  and not other packs, it's fair to assume some packs have developed a preference to livestock. Thank you for reading this and for your, and despite my disagreement with this statement, please keep up the good work over there at Meat Eater. I think this is a great note.

• 20:52Speaker 05

  Um, you gotta explain disagreement with this statement. What's he disagreeing with?

• 20:57Speaker 06

  He's, he's disagreeing with the fact that I said that cat, that certain wolf packs do not seem to develop a taste for cattle. Um, all I know is that the Copper Creek pack, which was brought from Oregon, killed cows in Oregon and they killed cows in Colorado. And that's all I know about that.

• 21:17Speaker 05

  That's kind of a correction and a kind of an apology, but I don't know.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  I, I do, I think the, the curve, your graph there is important, right? Because, uh, there's people who will cling to Mount Stupid and work their butts off to justify their once previously confident position. Instead of going down into despair and digging out through enlightenment. And then adjusting their position and saying, hey, here's what I know now.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  Which, and, and you're beginning the journey towards the plateau of sustainability.

• 22:02Speaker 06

  Yeah. So dude, I have no idea what's going on with wolves. I'll try, I'll keep working on it.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  No matter what.

• 22:07Speaker 06

  They eat cows.

• 22:08Speaker 03

  No matter what we talk about on this podcast, I always know that there's someone out there who knows way more about it than me. And I probably sound dumb, unless we're talking about things like.

• 22:21Speaker 04

  Guns. What you personally did last night?

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, as you say, like what happened to me in the bathroom last night?

• 22:27Speaker 05

  That's a good way of putting it out. We try to do our best. We're going to make some mistakes. We'll, we'll do our best to correct them. And if we need to, you know, take a dive down into despair and then climb back out, we'll do it.

• 22:39Speaker 03

  And, and just so no one gets the wrong idea, there was a momentary scare last night when I thought I might be the latest victim of Taco Bell's lies.

• 22:47Speaker 05

  We're going to get to that.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, we'll get to that later, but.

• 22:49Speaker 05

  Put spoilers out there.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  I didn't want to be too vague about what I did last night.

• 22:53Speaker 04

  There's a fascinating topic coming up.

• 22:55Speaker 06

  Thanks for writing in. Appreciate the great corrections and keep them brief. They're more likely to get aired if they're brief.

• 23:03Speaker 05

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• 23:11Speaker 03

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• 24:36Speaker 05

  Like this, this next one's pretty short. So, uh, we've got, we've got someone who, he's got some concerns about hunting in CWD, CWD zones, which is, there's not many places that aren't CWD zones these days. He writes, my family does all of our own butchering and processing. That's great. Um, and over the years, we've invested a lot of time, money and effort into becoming efficient hunters and processors. Between the cost of a lease, equipment, fuel, processing supplies, and the added risk of CWD, I've started asking myself whether hunting is still the most practical and economical way to fill the freezer. Uh, financially, it almost seems like it would be cheaper to buy quality meat from a local butcher.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  So here's my question. How would you approach hunting economically if you lived in an area where CWD is endemic? Um, meaning it's like high prevalence rates. You gotta, if you kill a deer, get it tested, there's a decent chance it's going to come back, uh, positive for CWD. Um, uh, where, where is, would you start traveling to hunt in areas with lower CWD prevalence? Even if it means spending more on fuel and time? And at what point does traveling become the more economical option, both financially and in terms of confidence that the meat you're bringing home will actually fill the freezer? That's come, that comes from Kyle. Um.

• 26:02Speaker 04

  God, if you're hunting economically, you're doing something way different than I've ever done.

• 26:06Speaker 05

  Well, Yanis, or someone actually did a, this came up, this economically, like sustainably hunting thing came up in a recent episode. I think it might've been Yanis was covering something, but basically like, the only way you're going to like, like save money or break even is by hunting in your backyard. Right? Like, like hardly any driving, processing your own meat like this guy's doing. Um, so that's kind of like.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Not investing in new gear.

• 26:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's kind of like the whole like saving money thing as much, as much as it gets talked about. It's not really a thing. Um, it's just like you're choosing to eat wild game over domestic meat is, is basically what it comes down to.

• 26:47Speaker 04

  Well, I, I think the other thing too, right, is like, this is my entertainment dollar. Like the, we had an offline conversation about things the lady wants to do for her entertainment. And I'm like, well, that's not where my entertainment dollar goes.

• 27:02Speaker 05

  Right.

• 27:03Speaker 04

  It also goes into hunting.

• 27:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 04

  As does my mental health dollar, my physical fitness dollar.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  Some people spend money on going to the beach or Disney World or whatever. We spend a little money on going hunting. Um, like I get the, the like, the debate over like, should I even bother because of CWD? Um, there are some areas where like, you know, in Doug Durn's zone of Wisconsin, like you're rolling a dice if you shoot a deer, right? And it can start to feel frustrating when you get that test result back and it's positive and you can't eat the thing. Um, you gotta make a choice. Like if it's worth it to you or not, I, I would hate to see people like deciding just to hang it up because of chronic wasting disease.

• 27:52Speaker 05

  We've got it here in the valley. It's, it's maybe not as high prevalence as some areas, but it's concerning. Uh, you know, I shoot deer here. It's a, it's actually a very cheap economical way for me to kill a couple of those close to home. I get them tested. I've been lucky and haven't had any positive results and I'm going to keep doing it. Um, like, I don't know if you've got anything more for this guy. Uh, like, I just think it's, it's like a reality for hunters that all hunters get like, kind of got to confront how they're going to approach it these days.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think there's not really enough, if we were actually running the numbers. Trying to figure out if it makes sense financially to travel more to areas with lower prevalence. Does that mean driving an hour? Or does that mean driving five hours? There's not really anything to go on there, but I guess like.

• 28:47Speaker 03

  And also the comparative rates of infection in those two places.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Or do you have a one in three chance if you drive an hour?

• 28:57Speaker 03

  You know, it's, but I don't know. I, I think like your larger point that you'd hate to see people hanging up because they're frustrated by not being able to eat what they kill.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  That's, that is just the reality of where we are right now.

• 29:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it might. People might not like it, but you are kind of still helping out. By shooting deer that are.

• 29:25Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, and Cal, you made a good point that maybe would, wouldn't be here, or it wouldn't be quite as bad if.

• 29:32Speaker 04

  If people were actually out there harvesting does.

• 29:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's not going to get any better if people who live in C to high CWD areas all decide to heart.

• 29:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Outside of those areas.

• 29:43Speaker 05

  Just gonna get a higher and higher prevalence rate.

• 29:47Speaker 05

  So I don't know if we answered this guy's questions or not. Keep hunting.

• 29:50Speaker 04

  Keep, keep hunting. And yeah, I mean, it'd be great if Doug published all of his data because I think they're at like an 80% prevalence rate. So it's like.

• 30:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, I mean.

• 30:04Speaker 04

  You are far more likely to kill a deer with CWD than not.

• 30:07Speaker 05

  Yep, yep.

• 30:08Speaker 04

  Uh, but they are, are still getting, uh, non-positive deer out there and the population in, in Richland County over there is.

• 30:19Speaker 05

  I think that's it.

• 30:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, um, like does not seem to be going down.

• 30:23Speaker 05

  Right, right. So there you go, Kyle. Uh, keep shooting those deer.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Thanks for writing in.

• 30:30Speaker 05

  Eating those deer.

• 30:32Speaker 05

  All right, we're ready for the news.

• 30:39Speaker 05

  That's it? That's all you got, Phil?

• 30:40Speaker 03

  What, what happened at the end?

• 30:41Speaker 04

  Uh, it got eaten by some sort of animal, presumably a cat of some kind. Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. And the dude doing, doing Morse code, we don't know what happened to him.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  One of life's mysteries. He probably died 40 years ago, to be fair.

• 30:57Speaker 05

  All right, we're going to talk about this big, uh, Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision that rejects open, the open field doctrine for game wardens.

• 31:08Speaker 05

  Okay, before I get into that, I'm going to explain open fields in the fourth amendment real quick for people who aren't familiar. We've talked about open fields before, but I'll give you the quick rundown. It's, it's a, open fields doctrine is a legal principle established by the US Supreme Court. That allows law enforcement officers to enter and search privately owned open land without a search warrant. Applies to fields, forests, pastures and undeveloped land, even if the property is posted with a no trespassing sign. It does not apply to a home's curtilage, meaning the immediate area surrounding a residence, like outbuildings, things like that. They remain protected by the fourth amendment.

• 31:53Speaker 05

  The fourth amendment protects people from unfair and unreasonable searches and seizures by the government. It also states that with certain exceptions, police need a warrant to search or search your property or take, take things. So Pennsylvania got rid of it, um, recently. There, there was a lawsuit, but, and before we get into that, um,

• 32:19Speaker 05

  game wardens in states that operate under the open fields doctrine, they typically have more leeway. They operate with more leeway than, than other law enforcement personnel might. That's like open to interpretation, but it's, I think that's a generally like correct statement. If you think I'm wrong, you can write in about it, or these guys will correct me if I'm wrong.

• 32:45Speaker 05

  Basically what it means is, like, let's say a game warden's driving down a country road 30 minutes before shooting light.

• 32:56Speaker 05

  Here's some gunshots, uh, this is before or after legal shooting light. Here's some gunshots. Sounds like a rat-a-tat-tat kind of shotgun shooting thing. Waterfowl season's open. He knows there's a pond next to a cornfield on this piece of property he's driving by. He could then walk in there and see what's going on, correct? Like, is that fair to say?

• 33:23Speaker 04

  Just from the sound, I thought it was. I don't, I thought they had to see stuff going on. Yeah, that's a, that's a tough one.

• 33:34Speaker 05

  Anyway, maybe I've already screwed this up. But, okay, let's say.

• 33:38Speaker 04

  Well, so the, the, the thing that I know to absolutely be true.

• 33:43Speaker 05

  Right.

• 33:43Speaker 04

  Is if your state operates with the open fields doctrine.

• 33:47Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 33:48Speaker 04

  It's still up to your game agency or, and law enforcement agency to say how that's going to be interpreted in your state.

• 33:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 04

  And so there, there are states that have a more liberal.

• 34:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  Interpretation of how they're going to operate. And then, you know, the crazy thing like Idaho just lost open fields. And they had a very narrow.

• 34:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:10Speaker 04

  It's like, unless it is like egregious in your face, that law enforcement officer is not going to walk across private property without.

• 34:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, we'll talk a little more about that.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  But, um, not to, not to.

• 34:23Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 34:23Speaker 03

  Further confuse things, but I've often heard when examples are given about open fields, I've often heard a gun, the sound of a gunshot as being.

• 34:32Speaker 05

  No, no.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Sort of, no, no, like being the, the instigating factor.

• 34:35Speaker 05

  That's what I've heard.

• 34:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, so that's, I would agree with you that that's.

• 34:38Speaker 05

  Another example might be like game wardens driving down the road, sees a deer hanging in a garage. Deer season's not open.

• 34:45Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 34:46Speaker 05

  Something like that.

• 34:46Speaker 04

  Yep. Or a bull elk in the case of Montana.

• 34:49Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 34:49Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, he doesn't need to go to a judge and get a search warrant to go investigate that.

• 34:55Speaker 05

  Now, before we get into this Pennsylvania thing, I want to make something really clear. In covering this story, we're like in no way trying to portray game wardens or conservation officers as the enemy. Because they're, they're not. They're doing a vitally important job protecting people and wildlife. And they're also performing difficult, sometimes dangerous law enforcement duties. Like catching poachers that are stealing wildlife from you and me. And, and I'm willing to go way out on a limb to say that like, when it comes to like private property rights. Most game wardens in most places, like by necessity,

• 35:37Speaker 05

  have worked really hard to cultivate a good working relationship with the private landowners in the area they patrol. Like, it's just like that they're not operating in a way where they're going to have these antagonistic relationships with landowners. It's just going to make their job impossible. So I just want to like, get that out there first before we get into the particulars of this case.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  We'll, we'll get into the, the actual case and then get into the like, the pros and cons of it after I talk about what happened in Pennsylvania.

• 36:16Speaker 05

  Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision just this month, game wardens was, must generally obtain a warrant before entering, uh, posted private, posted private property. A Supreme Court decision rejected the open fields doctrine. The, the federal open fields doctrine still exists under the, the US constitution, but in Pennsylvania, it was a seven zero Supreme Court decision. Punxsutawney Hunting Club Incorporated versus Pennsylvania Game Commission. So it significantly spans private property protections in the state of Pennsylvania. The, the court ruled, uh,

• 36:57Speaker 05

  officers again must generally obtain a search warrant before entering clearly posted fenced gated or otherwise marked private property to investigate wildlife violations. The decision overturns Pennsylvania Supreme Court's 2007 ruling Commonwealth versus Russo, which had allowed game wardens to enter open fields on private land without a warrant. Now, the case background is there's a couple of hunting clubs in Pennsylvania, the Punxsutawney Hunting Club and the Pitch Pine Hunting Club that challenged the game commission's authority to enter posted lands. There's some history here.

• 37:36Speaker 05

  The clubs allege that Pennsylvania game wardens entered their posted private, posted property dozens of times over several years without permission. Or a search warrant. Uh, according to court filings, they hid in camouflage on club property, conducted surveillance with binoculars, installed trail cameras on the club's land without, without the owner's knowledge or consent. Now, this is, this is like more recent happenings. The, this all goes back to a 2013 incident. After a game warden confronted a member of the Pitch Pine Hunting Club over allegedly feeding bears.

• 38:15Speaker 05

  The, the member later learned that the officer had been secretly observing activity, activity on the club's property for several days. No citation was issued, um, but the club members objected to, you know, the, the, the activity that was going on. Since 2013, uh, game commission officers entered the club's posted private property 15 to 22 times. I'm not sure about the why there's a number that, that number's not exact. Um, I'm sure if you got into the, the, the details of the court case, you'd understand why it's not exact, but enough times that, that they viewed it as a major problem. Again, without consent, a warrant or probable cause.

• 39:00Speaker 05

  During some of those entries, game warden, uh, Mark Gritzer issued citations to individual hunters or club members for alleged violations of the game code. This Supreme Court opinion doesn't specify how many citations were issued or whether people were convicted or anything like that. The club's lawsuit was not an appeal of those those violations or citations. It just, it's trying to, their, their goal was to get a declaration that the game commission can't just like come onto their property whenever they want. Um, so obviously they, they, they won the argument.

• 39:43Speaker 05

  Pennsylvania Supreme Court ultimately agreed that the state constitution, state constitution provides greater privacy protections than the federal open fields doctrine and requires warrants. So that's, that's where we're at right now. What ward, wardens can still do, uh, they can still enter unposted or unmarked private land without a warrant in some circumstances. Uh, observe violations occurring in plain view from lawful locations, rely on let recognized exceptions to the warrant requirements such as consent or exigent circumstances. So that explains like how they can still get on private property like.

• 40:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's like an emergency.

• 40:26Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 04

  Situation, situation. So like they're, they're, uh, compelled to go help in, uh, a medical situation that they observe or, you know, an active crime that is observable from a county road.

• 40:41Speaker 05

  Yep. Yep. Um, so large expansion of private property rights in Pennsylvania wildlife law in decades. Um, it's going to require, uh, some adjustment for how game wardens and conservation officers do their work, um, investigating suspected hunting and wildlife violations. Um, and it could influence similar legal challenges in other states.

• 41:11Speaker 05

  Supporters of the decision like are generally like very much in favor of fourth amendment constitutional private property and privacy rights. Um, that's basically it. Uh, what it comes down to get, uh, getting rid of opens fields treats conservation officers more like other law enforcement officers that when conducting searches. So it's like, it's a, it's a fourth amendment rights argument, the, the people that are supporting the, the decision. Critics say the ruling, uh, can make it a lot more difficult for game wardens to do their job.

• 41:49Speaker 05

  Um, requiring warrants slows things down, especially in remote areas where a game warden knows there's a violation going on. He's trying to investigate it, but he can't. So he's got to drive all the way back into town and track down the district attorney, a judge, get a warrant, go back. And by the time he's gone back, you know, any evidence of a crime or, or, or the actual crime is just like not happening by the time they get back. Um, so that's, that's what critics argue, you know, for the, the open fields doctrine.

• 42:25Speaker 05

  I, I, I did some research on other states. I kinda like, I didn't, I guess I thought this was almost like a first time thing with Pennsylvania, but there are at least nine to 10 other states that have rejected the open fields doctrine, Mississippi, Montana, New York, Oregon, Idaho, Tennessee, Vermont, Washington, Pennsylvania, South Dakota. They recognize and operate under open fields with very strict limits on, uh, what the conservation officers can actually do. And Cal, you kind of alluded to that and I, that's the way it is in Idaho too.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, it, it was prior to this.

• 43:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 04

  And that's like what was interesting about, I mean, the other interesting thing, um, the, the new court decisions are all, um, being litigated pro bono by Institute for Justice. I, I would really, I don't, and this is something that I don't understand is, um,

• 43:29Speaker 04

  what's their stake in this?

• 43:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, actually I spoke with that, that litigator.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 43:34Speaker 06

  He reached out after he saw Steve's video and he is purely a fourth amendment guy.

• 43:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 43:38Speaker 06

  Like he, this.

• 43:39Speaker 05

  It's got nothing to do with hunting.

• 43:41Speaker 06

  It just happens to be that game wardens are at the crosshairs of this thing. And he's like, if there was a, if there was a DEA agent who was using open fields doctrine to do something with a drug bust, I would litigate that because I think the fourth amendment's so important. Um, and so he doesn't have a bone to pick with hunters or game wardens. These are just the situations that are arising.

• 43:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 06

  So. He was the one who, uh, litigated rainwaters in Tennessee.

• 44:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, and there are, yeah, there's all sorts of instances, right? It's kinda like when we talk about, uh, individual animals. I named this mountain lion, so it's really important. And now it's emblematic of the entire population.

• 44:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  Uh, there's certain instances where I think most people would all agree like, oh my God, that is a gross overstep of authority and abuse of power. But, uh, the other thing that we have to balance this is it is all public wildlife. And just like a super quick story, Idaho, that one was brutal for me because it is such, it is the most serious migratory state I have ever hunted. Like you see, you're like, oh my God, this is what a migration looks like.

• 44:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:52Speaker 04

  And, um, you know, a state known for big, awesome mule deer.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  One time I got permission to hunt on this place. The guy's like, oh, you like mule deer? Look in the shop. And there's this row of dusty, almost forgotten, truly giant mule deer racks. Like, like things today that would just blow, blow people's mind. And it was, you know, generations. And they were like, nobody knows about them. It is safe to say nobody knows about them. There's a whole, uh, Robbie Denning's book on like big bucks Idaho. That these things aren't in there, right?

• 45:31Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  But it's because this ranch.

• 45:34Speaker 05

  It got your blood boiling, I bet.

• 45:35Speaker 04

  This ranch is in, and I was hunting birds, right? This ranch, this ranch is in, like when it was the heavy snows forever, this is where all the big bucks end up. And it is feasible with the state of mule deer and mule deer genetics right now, that if you had bad actors.

• 45:58Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 46:00Speaker 04

  They could, they could literally eliminate the ability for those types of genes to be passed on.

• 46:07Speaker 05

  Or at least make some serious bucks, killing bucks, like allowing, you know what I mean?

• 46:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. That, I mean, that, that too. But if it's like, you know, and I was, uh, hunting, uh, turkeys on a place this year, just for instance, it was awesome. It's huge. And, uh, was driving out. And, you know, it's like calving season during turkey season. So all the ranch activities on one place, nobody's on the whole rest of the ranch. And I was like, God, you could just live out here and nobody would know about it. And sure enough, I get stopped on the way out. Like, what are you doing? I was like, oh, I was hunting turkeys.

• 46:46Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  They're like, oh, okay, great. Didn't know. It was like, yeah. Like you get lost back there, right? So, uh, there are many instances where this isn't just like a crazy theory.

• 46:59Speaker 05

  Right.

• 47:00Speaker 04

  And, and part of law enforcement on landscape is wildlife management, which is a public resource. So if it is not your buddy at Western Justice or Institute for Justice, right? This isn't a solve for anything in my mind. This is like ripping open this can of worms and we need the ability to regulate the take and management of public wildlife. It is a public resource in the United States.

• 47:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 04

  So if this isn't the answer, what is?

• 47:34Speaker 05

  Yeah. I, I mean, that, that's the question is enforcement becomes kinda impossible in certain situations. And like part of the, the, like, this kinda gets away from what we're talking about, but part of the, the effectiveness of game wardens is, is knowing they could just show up at any time.

• 48:00Speaker 06

  Right.

• 48:00Speaker 05

  Knowing that maybe they won't show up, but knowing that they could be glassing you from a county road and you're two miles up a hillside or whatever. Like knowing that they're out there doing their job, like makes them effective even when they're not around.

• 48:16Speaker 04

  It's part of the deterrent puzzle.

• 48:18Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  Or pie or whatever.

• 48:20Speaker 05

  If you're, you know, completely hidden from view on private property. Look, most hunters aren't bad actors, but there are bad actors out there who would take advantage of this situation, I feel like, unfortunately.

• 48:38Speaker 06

  I think one other piece he raised that was interesting is the, the difference between state and federal enforcement.

• 48:43Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 48:44Speaker 06

  Like because of the supremacy clause, the constitution, the fourth amendment, when, when federal officers are enforcing federal statutes, they can still use open fields throughout the U.S., but state officers cannot, unless they're cross deputized. And that is another thing that's going to get real muddy here now.

• 49:01Speaker 05

  Yeah. And there are situations where hunters would have to deal with, with federal officers for sure on wildlife refugees and things like that. But, uh, privately, and I'm, you know, I'm not sure how that would play out. Um, so there you go. I, I think my, my, if I had a crystal ball like Steve would, I would say probably more states are gonna go this direction if I, if I had to make a prediction.

• 49:31Speaker 05

  911, what's your emergency?

• 49:34Speaker 04

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warrants.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  There's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  Oh, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 49:54Speaker 02

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• 51:01Speaker 05

  So we're done with that crap. Let's move on to Randall's crap.

• 51:05Speaker 03

  Hmm. Thanks, Brody.

• 51:09Speaker 03

  Um, man, I came across this story and I just couldn't look away.

• 51:17Speaker 03

  There was a coverage of a dissertation that was just completed at Penn State by a doctoral researcher named Jack Edelson or Adelson. Um, and they, they looked at public, this, this dissertation was touted as perhaps the most in-depth coverage of public study of public land pooping habits. And I didn't need to know anymore. At that point, I knew it needed to be.

• 51:45Speaker 05

  You were hooked.

• 51:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, so, so what, what this study encompassed was, um, the, the researcher went to three different sites. Um, most of the coverage in the press has focused on what they did at Colorado, uh, in, at Mount Albert, which is one of the 14ers. I believe it's the tallest.

• 52:05Speaker 05

  Super busy, close to Denver, gets a lot of traffic.

• 52:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it gets, it gets 15,000 to 20,000 hikers a year. Um, and it's an eight hour round trip with no bathroom. Once you leave the trailhead. So obviously.

• 52:18Speaker 04

  How do people survive?

• 52:20Speaker 03

  Well, that's, I mean, people survive, but they also duke along the way. Um, in fact, what 11% of the people that were contacted during this study, which involved reaching out to people at the trailhead, asking them about their hike, and I'll get to this in a minute, encouraging them to adopt new habits when it comes to pooping in the wild. 11% of the people they contacted reported defecating during their hike. That's a lot of, that's a lot of feasts.

• 52:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  And so what the, what the focus of this was that was they're trying to encourage people or, or understand how receptive people would be to packing out their own waste. We're all familiar with the doggy doo doo bag. Um, in humans, you don't necessarily use that. You use what's called a wag bag. And here's where I learned something very new to myself.

• 53:19Speaker 04

  It's a little overlap with new dad advice too. We do use the dog poop bags for the kid poop diapers.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  Do you know what a wag bag would, it's an acronym.

• 53:28Speaker 04

  It's way big.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  Do you know what it stands for?

• 53:31Speaker 06

  I've, I used them back in a past life and I don't know what they stand for.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  I'd never, I, I always thought it was like a slang term. It's a waste aggregation and gelling bag.

• 53:41Speaker 04

  Huh.

• 53:41Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 04

  Powder in there.

• 53:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a little puncture resistant bag, um, that usually has a gelling powder with enzymes.

• 53:49Speaker 04

  Asterisks.

• 53:50Speaker 03

  And it, it, theoretically puncture resistant, um, that the, the purpose of the gelling powder is to neutralize odor. Um, and then it's, you can use this, just throw it in the trash.

• 54:05Speaker 03

  So long story short, there's a lot of people duking on, uh, on Mount Albert. And this researcher set up at the trailhead and they gave out, uh, wag bags to people. And they tracked who used it. They asked people, they asked hikers what would get, what would get them to use wag bags because, and this was especially, I think, prominent during COVID was the amount of, there are certain parts of our public lands that are just so heavily trafficked that it's inescapable that there's going to be, you know, it's like you go to some places around Bozeman and it's covered in dog shit. Like there's places like Mount Albert where, where it's, it's also inescapable.

• 54:45Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, you come across places where there's just toilet paper scattered all over the ground.

• 54:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:51Speaker 05

  I mean.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  Um, so, so what they found was that people were actually very receptive to using wag bags. The big thing was cost and how hard it was to get your hands on a wag bag. Um, so 80% of hikers said they would try a free wag bag.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  They, they said it was easy. They said, and, and so essentially they provided people with wag bags and they had a receptacle at the trailhead. And people adopted this, I think surprisingly well.

• 55:26Speaker 05

  So they just had like a kiosk where you could just grab one before you.

• 55:30Speaker 03

  Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, and the other, the other thing that's interesting about this is that, um, putting in a vault toilet at a trailhead is huge, like it's a huge expense and there's obviously maintenance and upkeep required with that. But if you can, um, provide people with wag bags at a trailhead and a receptacle to dispose of them, there's probably going to be a lot less, uh, toilet paper scattered around that trailhead. If it's a toiletless trailhead and there's going to be a lot less toilet paper and, and

• 56:02Speaker 03

  crap.

• 56:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:03Speaker 03

  Along the trail. So, you know, it's not, it's this, this isn't a.

• 56:07Speaker 04

  I, I would say that's a trend though, right? Like most, if you give people a reasonable option, there's going to be a high adaptation rate because most people just don't know. They haven't taken the time to figure it out.

• 56:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 56:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. Or it's just out of the realm of things that they think about, right?

• 56:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I can see like, I can see it being promising and I can see it working. Like back when I was guiding, um, we used to use a couple of really busy boat ramps on, on the Colorado River. And they're on BLM that like there's campgrounds and, and like it was developed sites and the BLM took the trash cans away. As soon as they did that, there was no, never any trash laying around at those sites. So I could see like a similar thing. If you get rid of the vault toilets and like give the, maybe give the, the wag bags away, that it would work better. As far as like

• 57:07Speaker 05

  large scale use without having access to that free kiosk, I'm not, I don't know.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I mean, the dog poop equivalent, right? Like, why isn't the adaptation rate higher?

• 57:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:23Speaker 04

  Right? Like I was at a local boat launch, uh, throwing for the dog the other day.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:29Speaker 04

  And, uh, she took off with the, with the bumper into the woods.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:34Speaker 04

  And then came back without it. And did the like.

• 57:37Speaker 05

  Retrieve it?

• 57:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I'm like, where the hell is the thing? This is the puppy, you know? And, uh, and I was like, oh my God, the poop per, per square foot.

• 57:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:46Speaker 04

  Here is.

• 57:46Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 04

  Horrifying.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I guess, you know, this is one of those things where the fact that there's a dissertation, I feel like there's often when something like this makes the news, there's people laughing like, oh, you can get a doctorate for studying poop, but you need this data and this research to get agencies or nonprofits or whatever to spend money.

• 58:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:12Speaker 03

  Try this out because what the data shows is that the assumption that hikers won't do this.

• 58:18Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 58:19Speaker 03

  That assumption is wrong.

• 58:21Speaker 05

  And it's great, great news.

• 58:22Speaker 03

  Making an incremental change in the way that people impact public lands is going to add up in the long run.

• 58:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, for sure. And I, I think there's like, I think there's also like just a lack of awareness, especially on the part of, uh, you know, I don't want to put hikers in the crosshair, but like kind of day hikers that don't spend a lot, a lot of, you know, as much time outside as us, um, let's say, um, it's like a lack of awareness that that's even an option, you know, maybe a lack of awareness that you should, if you do, if you, wag bags aren't an option, that you should get a hundred yards or more off the trail and bury it.

• 59:01Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:02Speaker 05

  Just, uh, you know, I think it's kind of like, oh, I gotta go, so I'm going to go, you know?

• 59:06Speaker 03

  Or just, just even just pack out, like bury it and pack out the paper.

• 59:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  That's one thing I've been doing a lot more.

• 59:12Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:12Speaker 03

  Is I always have like my day snacks.

• 59:14Speaker 05

  Burn it.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  In a big gallon baggie. Dump all my snacks in my pack, stuff all that paper in there and then, uh, forget about it. And leave your pack in the bed of your truck for four days. And then open it up the next time you need to go out and you realize that there's multiple day old feast smear on all that, on all that cotton out. So back to you, Brody.

• 59:38Speaker 05

  Back to me. Actually, actually we're, we're moving on to Cal and wetlands, aren't we?

• 59:43Speaker 04

  All right. Um, this is good timing because I, I, I'm down to just a handful of fatty ducks in the freezer and, and we had, uh, two Wigeon and two teal last night and

• 59:56Speaker 04

  my God, just so good. So good. Um,

• 1:00:01Speaker 04

  the U S Fish and Wildlife Service has opened a 14 day public comment period on a request for information. That's RFI, government speak, about drain tile setbacks. Uh, drain tile is a chunk of PVC with holes in it. Um, you, you put it subsurface and it, uh, expedites the drainage of, of water. Um, and you can do this on large landscapes, uh, and drain whole wetlands.

• 1:00:31Speaker 05

  So if you're.

• 1:00:32Speaker 04

  If you wanted to.

• 1:00:33Speaker 05

  If you're, let's say a developer and, uh, you want to build some stuff, but there's a, there's a pesky wetlands in the way. This is how you might.

• 1:00:45Speaker 04

  This is, this would be a tool that you could use. Um, if you are a farmer that doesn't like to make turns around things and loves those straight lines, which is the efficiency of farming argument. Um, this would be a tool that you could have in your quiver. And, um, we have some visuals here. Phil, would you mind pulling up the topographic map? So, uh, it doesn't look like much on the map here. So, uh, there's, there's your wetland, obviously in the middle. This is a very. Emblematic of the prairie pothole region. This is the snapshot of South Dakota. And this is like retreating glacier country. So there's a bunch of little holes out there.

• 1:01:30Speaker 04

  A lot of those holes uh sometimes got deeper because the bison would use them to wallow. And uh those fill up with rain intermittently. And they boom with life because little grass, grasses and stuff.

• 1:01:46Speaker 05

  And this is like the breeding duck factory of North America.

• 1:01:49Speaker 04

  It is the breeding duck factory and then it is how these fledgling ducks. Get all their little invertebrates to become uh big ducks that uh I shoot and snort retrieves. Um it's a circle of life thing, right? But it's the the intermittent nature of these things. The thing that that means that they they're dry sometimes, they're wet sometimes, often multiple times throughout the year. That um give people the idea that they don't matter, but that in fact is how uh disease issues are mitigated naturally, bacteria. And you get these little bumper crops of zooplankton and phytoplankton that create the invert invertebrates and then the birds.

• 1:02:32Speaker 05

  And and way more like important way beyond just waterfowl.

• 1:02:37Speaker 04

  Yes, pollinators, all sorts of migratory birds that we don't consider uh huntable. And um they're magnets for big game. Back when I was doing a lot of spot and stock mule deer hunting. Um these little intermittent wetlands. And most of these are under half an acre. That we're talking about today. Um are are magnets for for big bucks laying laying it out because they can see forever around them. And then Phil, let's slip over to the satellite image here, please. Then you can see, oh my gosh. The real worldview is there's a lot more

• 1:03:20Speaker 04

  uh potential habitat out there than what's on the map. Um so there's different types of intermittent wetlands. And what we're coming down to and what they want in this request for information is to weigh in. On um if there needs to be any changes. And the change would be converting US Fish and Wildlife Service Wetland Conservation Easements. To this language of possibly NRCS Wetland Conservation Easements. And the reason that these two different definitions exist is not because of, oh, my God, government ineptitude.

• 1:04:03Speaker 04

  It's because you want to give people options out there. And the NRCS version, you can put drain tile a lot closer. And if you flip back over to our topo map. You can see it's obviously a lot easier to affect some of these smaller wetlands than the bigger wetlands. So the closer you get with that drain tile. The faster that water moves out out and that's no longer an intermittent wetland.

• 1:04:31Speaker 05

  Does uh WOTUS or the Clean Water Act come into play at all in this stuff or no?

• 1:04:38Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, it's a it's a big soup here because WOTUS. And the Clean Water Act have bolstered uh revisions here. That that helped grease the wheels with with some of this. The big thing for people to understand is even with the the broader protections of the fringe in the your US Fish and Wildlife Service Wetland Conservation Easement. Um your your farmer or your rancher out there has the ability to um plant grass in there. They can hay it. They can graze cattle.

• 1:05:16Speaker 04

  Um depending on what agreement you have, you can also do row crops in there if you if you want to. Uh but you can't burn it or uh plow it under.

• 1:05:30Speaker 04

  And you know, so there's this tapestry of things that you can do. And you're paid upfront in a willing buyer, willing seller agreement. And everybody in this room has paid into it, even old Phil over there. So

• 1:05:47Speaker 06

  Hell yeah, Phil.

• 1:05:48Speaker 04

  Uh your duck stamp dollars go to Conservation Easements, Wetland Conservation Easements. Uh as do Pittman Robertson dollars. And if you've ever bought a state waterfowl stamp voluntarily, that's that's where this cash goes. A lot of times too. Um so by converting

• 1:06:12Speaker 04

  this to a lesser. I would say lesser requirement. We stand to lose hundreds of thousands of acres of intermittent wetlands that we've already paid for. Um and these are they're supposed to be perpetual. And we've lost somewhere in the neighborhood of about 80% of our wetlands. Um throughout the prairie pothole region already. Um Montana has lost over 30%. Um Minnesota 50%, Wisconsin 50%. Um and then in the Dakotas, it's somewhere in there between uh 30 and 50% of

• 1:06:57Speaker 04

  uh pre-existing wetlands. So

• 1:07:02Speaker 04

  uh this is a big deal. And if you like hunting ducks and you like biodiversity out there on the prairie. Which by the way, is one of the biggest factors in having kids come back and work on the farm. Is if there's actual pretty things to look at and it's not just a flat landscape. Uh is biodiversity, then you got a couple of days left here to write in. We have a uh action alert out at the backcountryhunters.org website. Ducks Unlimited, Delta Waterfowl. Um we'll all give you the tools to just kind of click. We'll give you the language. You can uh make up your own mind on whether or not this is a good thing or a bad thing.

• 1:07:48Speaker 04

  And then you can really, really easily weigh in um to our buddy old Brian Nesbitt there at US Fish and Wildlife Service.

• 1:07:55Speaker 05

  Um speaking of Brian Nesbit, what like?

• 1:08:01Speaker 05

  Did did the US Fish and Wildlife Service just kind of come up on this? On their own? Like where did the impetus for this come from? Who did it come?

• 1:08:09Speaker 04

  Well, that is a great question, Brody, because many people have asked, hey, Cal.

• 1:08:19Speaker 04

  I've read this and read this and I can't see the problem that they're trying to fix. Because it seems like there's a lot of options out there. Including whether or not you would enter into one of these agreements at all. Is a choice that you can make. Um and there's there's uh drain tile companies out there. That are pushing this pretty heavy. Uh there's been some some uh statements and some media out there as to why this is a is a good thing. And it's it's coming from that industry.

• 1:08:50Speaker 05

  It's is there any congressmen, senators, et cetera, attached to that this at all or?

• 1:09:00Speaker 04

  Um yeah, uh John Thune in North Dakota, who is also the uh I want to say Speaker of the House. That's not right. He is the Senate.

• 1:09:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, majority.

• 1:09:11Speaker 04

  Senate Majority Leader. Thank you. There you go. Yeah. So landowners who sold these months agreed not to drain, burn, level, or fill wetlands. But are otherwise able to work farm hay and graze any that dry up or drain naturally. Uh in addition, some uh some good neighbor policies were were adapted. I think back in 2024. Um to address this idea that you might be unfairly prosecuted. If you adhere to the guidelines and you install drain tile uh outside of the fringe under either your NRCS or US Fish and Wildlife Service

• 1:09:55Speaker 04

  contract and you do it to the letter of the law. It's called safe harbor. Um that that you are protected if if there's, for whatever reason, that thing uh uh drains anyway. Uh just basically giving the nod to the farmer saying like you're not a geomorphologist, a hydrologist, you're you're a farmer. Um and mistakes can be made. So

• 1:10:22Speaker 04

  it's a big one and a big question that we're asking around backcountry hunters and anglers a lot these days is, oh, my God. What is the impact and what happens to the backcountry if the front country goes away?

• 1:10:34Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:10:35Speaker 04

  Yep. And this is a good way to make the front country go away. So your OnX has all these intermittent wetlands out there. Look at the topo layer. And then just do some driving around and you can do it very easily in the next seven days. Do some driving around and go, okay, I'm going to go see this thing on the map. And it is wild. How much of the time you pull up and you're like, oh, there is nothing there. So we've lost

• 1:11:08Speaker 05

  There at the wrong, yeah.

• 1:11:09Speaker 04

  You're there at the wrong time of the year or it's in production or it just does not exist anymore.

• 1:11:14Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:11:16Speaker 06

  For I might just, I might have missed this or just don't understand because I don't know anything about farming and ranching. But what's the what's the advantage of moving those drain tiles closer? Like that just makes more like arable land?

• 1:11:28Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that you don't have to uh drive slightly around. Again, most of these things, everybody thinks like these big wetland complexes, which are very important too. Oftentimes for different reasons and different species of of hunter huntable waterfowl. But it's these little tiny pockets.

• 1:11:48Speaker 06

  Puddles and one of the coolest things like in Montana, uh, because we have, you know, a lot of really shallow wetlands. And when those rains come through, it is so cool in the spring to see, um, lots and lots of pin tail, lots of, uh, blue wing and green wing.

• 1:12:07Speaker 05

  What I was, I was just gonna say, when I was training for the marathon in, in May, um, I was doing a lot of running, you know, north of town out in that farm country here. And all those little puddles and seeps and stuff like full of nesting teal, like cinnamon teal, which you don't see.

• 1:12:27Speaker 06

  The cinnamon teal. Yes, exactly.

• 1:12:28Speaker 05

  It was, it was super cool and just these tiny little spots like you're talking about.

• 1:12:32Speaker 06

  And you get to see behavior that you don't see during hunting season, which is really, really neat. Um, so yeah, just a quick recap. Montana has lost between 27 and 33% of its wetlands, South Dakota, 35, North Dakota, 50, Minnesota, 50, Iowa, uh, between 90 and 97%.

• 1:12:50Speaker 05

  Hmm. Brutal.

• 1:12:51Speaker 06

  Yep. Yep. Yep. And you know, this is one of the things that is like keystone into the recovery of waterfowl and the ability for hunters to get back out in the field.

• 1:13:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Speaker 06

  If you want to go back to the economics argument of hunting.

• 1:13:08Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:13:09Speaker 06

  You know, it's like, one of the reasons that we got into this pit is developing, uh, nesting and, uh, resting habitat along the migration corridors, not understanding that everything's connected.

• 1:13:23Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:13:23Speaker 06

  Um, uh, pre, uh, anti-market hunting days, there would be state imposed waterfowl restrictions of a hundred birds a day, 50 birds a day. Um, and you know, eventually we started connecting the dots and we came up with programs like this and this WPA program didn't come in until 1957, right? And so we're not that far removed.

• 1:13:55Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:13:55Speaker 06

  From getting our act together. And then something like this comes down the pipe and you're like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. We, we, we just, we just saw the good things start to happen.

• 1:14:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. Not that far removed from both sides being into like fixing things and doing the right thing. For a while it was cool for both sides to do it. Um, it's not necessarily that way now.

• 1:14:18Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns. What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 1:14:30Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

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  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

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  Hell, since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:14:42Speaker 02

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

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• 1:15:48Speaker 05

  Um, you know, Nate, you know what else you, you, you can shoot around wetlands?

• 1:15:53Speaker 06

  Pheasants. Big pheasant.

• 1:15:55Speaker 05

  Nice transition.

• 1:15:56Speaker 06

  That was good.

• 1:15:59Speaker 06

  So Montana pheasants, before we get into that, quick story. I like to tell people I'm an adult onset hunter. That's not totally true. My only hunting experience before the age of 22 was at Miller Ranch Gaming Preserve right over the border in Spokane, Washington, which is a pheasant stocking operation. I was 11 ish. Uh, I hadn't hunted before. I asked my grandpa who had if he'd take me hunting and that's what we chose to do. And as an 11-year-old without any hunting background, I really didn't understand what was going on. I didn't understand stocking, wild birds, pen raised. Um, but even so, it felt a little off to me. Like I saw the guy drive out with birds in his ATV.

• 1:16:43Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:16:43Speaker 06

  Um, he told us when we were getting close to birds. We did get to see some cool dog work. Um, and we did end up shooting some of those birds, but it just, it felt weird as an 11-year-old. But I was with my grandpa and I didn't really know what was going on, so didn't say anything. Um, but I hate to admit it, we didn't even end up eating those birds. I don't know what happened to them. I think they got eaten by some freezer somewhere. Um, and after that whole experience, it took me 11 more years to try hunting again. Um, so it's fair to say this didn't exactly light my fire, which is why an article by Jordan Hanson at the Daily Montanan, uh, caught my eye. As Montana FWP seeks permission to increase pheasant stocking by over 400%, all in the name of young hunter recruitment.

• 1:17:26Speaker 06

  So brief history on pheasant stocking in Montana. In 1930, the Warm Springs Pheasant Farm opens and that's over near Deer Lodge, uh, here, here in, uh, southeast or sorry, southwest Montana. And the intent was specifically to bolster pheasant populations. I don't know what was going on at the time. The, the information is not very clear. Um, but.

• 1:17:46Speaker 05

  That's back when they thought stocking would.

• 1:17:48Speaker 06

  Gotcha.

• 1:17:49Speaker 05

  And, and you know, they quickly learned that, that it doesn't help wild populations.

• 1:17:53Speaker 06

  Well, it, there has to be an overlap of management, right? There's got to be predator management. There's got to be habitat management and, and a stocking program in order for, for those birds to have enough time to adapt. And even then the mortality rate is like staggeringly high.

• 1:18:14Speaker 05

  Oh, we'll get into it.

• 1:18:15Speaker 06

  Yes, please. Um, and so at its peak, that operation, again, which was the intent was population, uh, stocking was 15,000 birds annually. So that runs for 52 years. And although we might've learned the lesson quickly, it took them 52 years to turn it off. That pheasant farm closes, uh, which was, it, it released about a total of 450,000 birds over the 50-year life, which again is about 52,000 or 15,000 annually. And it was cited to be too expensive, very inefficient, and that FWP themselves found that habitat improvement was a far better use of funds. Um, for some, some stuff we're going to go into. Um, 1987, they codify the habitat improvement in the Upland Bird Game Enhancement Program,

• 1:18:58Speaker 06

  which we'll call UGBP, uh, which is, uh, $1.5 million specifically for habitat for upland birds. Um, and that's through cost share projects where you have a, of a rancher, plant a shelter belt or habitat leases and a few other, a few other, um, habitat improvement options. If you guys know anything more about those habitat improvements, that'd be great, but that's all I found. It's like quoted by FWP is. Yeah. And then, I mean, then there's some federal, um, that, that's where your hip comes in, which is now under NRCS Habitat Improvement, uh, projects. So fast forward, uh, to 2021 and we're going to take a quick detour to the commercial, or I shouldn't say the commercial, the prison system.

• 1:19:43Speaker 06

  I guess we, we could lump in, um, CRP too.

• 1:19:48Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:19:48Speaker 06

  Which is more of a resting thing, but does provide a lot of habitat. Go ahead. Sorry. Um, but fast forward 2021 and we'll take a detour to the prisons. And, uh, that year, a 30-year commercial contract with Dairy Gold ends. Um, basically Costco stopped buying, uh, prison milk, if you want to call it that. Um, but the, the Deer Lodge Penitentiary had a large dairy herd that they used for, um, that inmates ran and, um, they, they created a bunch of milk and then Dairy Gold bought that and then sold it to Costco. Um, but the cancellation of that resulted in a 1 million budget deficit for the prison system. Uh, why is that important? You ask. Well, that same year, right after that cancellation,

• 1:20:29Speaker 06

  the Montana Legislature passes House Bill 637, which authorizes, funny enough, $1 million annually for farm-raised pheasants with the stated goal of young hunter recruitment. Those farm-raised pheasants would be raised by the same inmates that were just milking cows for Dairy Gold. Um, the specifics of that legislation is that half the license dollars, or, or half of that $1 million would be license dollars and half would be matching Pittman Robertson funds, which was made eligible by the 2019 R3 expansion to Pittman Robertson. Um, those pheasants that are raised would be planted primarily before the youth opener.

• 1:21:09Speaker 06

  And the only, they were only allowed to release on state land, no federal or private. Um, do you guys have any experience do that youth season in the stock pheasants?

• 1:21:19Speaker 05

  Not with the youth season, but I feel like I've definitely run into some of those stock birds at some like fishing access.

• 1:21:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's what I've heard. What's that like?

• 1:21:27Speaker 05

  Phil.

• 1:21:28Speaker 06

  They run under your tires. Phil had an amazing shot on a stocked bird. He really did. Yeah, he did.

• 1:21:36Speaker 05

  Phil, take us back.

• 1:21:38Speaker 06

  Oh, I, I think I told you when I was at your house the other day, Randall, that like I haven't gone hunting a lot, but most of it's been with Cal and my experiences have been wonderful. And that was one of them. Yeah. I don't really have a lot of memories. I'm glad Cal remembers it because I, I, I felt good about the shot. So. It was, it was a great shot. No more color there. The second time I'd shot a shotgun in my life. But I mean, I, that is right there. Second time he shot a shotgun in his life. Uh, gotta see some, some great.

• 1:22:06Speaker 04

  Dog work. Um, the area that we were in has like really wonderful habitat.

• 1:22:12Speaker 03

  And clearly it lit a fire under you, Phil.

• 1:22:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, it really, really activated a hunter back there.

• 1:22:18Speaker 04

  Um, and you know, I gotta go home with, with some pheasants.

• 1:22:22Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:22:23Speaker 04

  Um, we, we, uh, helped clean them and, and get them ready to roll and, and threw some, some recipe suggestions out them. And, and I think that really is like the R three argument.

• 1:22:37Speaker 05

  That's the R three argument, but I would argue

• 1:22:43Speaker 05

  the pheasant was only a small part of that. You were the larger part.

• 1:22:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:47Speaker 05

  You know what I mean?

• 1:22:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. So, um, here's the, the Idaho runs this in a, in a different way where it's like the hunter has the choice to opt in.

• 1:22:59Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:23:00Speaker 04

  And it's basically a state match for outside funding to run this R three program where these are the areas, the WMAs, where we're going to release birds. And if you want to hunt pheasants here, you have to buy this stamp.

• 1:23:15Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:23:16Speaker 04

  And there, I, I love the way that they put it because they will often say like, this program's for young kids and old dogs.

• 1:23:23Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:23Speaker 04

  Or old dogs and, and young kids type of thing. Um, and I, I think that's a, a, a better way of doing it. Um, because you also, as we covered in the wetland conservation easements, you get all these other benefits from good habitat. Right? That aren't going to disappear in.

• 1:23:47Speaker 05

  Let's get to that and circle back to, to.

• 1:23:50Speaker 04

  So.

• 1:23:50Speaker 05

  So Nate can finish up his.

• 1:23:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, we'll finish up the, the history here. Um, so that that was in 2021 when they authorized that. Uh, concurrent to this, UGBEP, the habitat program is still running, but in 2023, FWP themselves asked to eliminate a provision that 5% of UGBEP funds were held for private land stocking of pen raised birds. Mainly because there was no interest from landowners in stocking those pen raised birds. So it's like, it, it's kind of, they're talking out of both sides of their mouth right now because, um, ultimately what the request is, is to increase the, the stocking locations from just state land to federal and private.

• 1:24:31Speaker 05

  And increasing the number of birds from.

• 1:24:33Speaker 06

  That's what's interesting is in, in 2021, so 2021 to 2025, there was about $2.5 million that go into the program. So instead of that one million per year that's authorized, only about 500,000 or half of the allocated funds went into the program. That resulted in 10,000 pen raised birds being released per year. And so the, the question that they're kind of raising through this is we're not limited by the number of pheasants that we can produce. We're not limited by, um, the dollar amount at this point. We're limited by the amount of land that we can put it on. And so we're then, we're now we're asking to go out there and put it on private and federal land so that we can fill

• 1:25:13Speaker 06

  ostensibly to have more hunter recruitment, but really what it seems to be like is to fill that entire one million dollar budget shortfall that the prison has.

• 1:25:21Speaker 05

  Sure. And it ain't hard to do the math. I'm no mathematician, but 500K budget. And you kick out 10,000 pen raised birds. That's 50 bucks a bird.

• 1:25:32Speaker 06

  50 bucks a bird, which we'll talk about. Um, so I, I want to give them benefit of the doubt and I, I called FWP. Um, Greg Lemon over there is great. Um, and, and what he clarified is this isn't a request for additional money. Or, and, and it's been reported on as we're requesting an increase from 10,000 to 50,000 birds. Um, that's not actually what the change is. The change is where those birds can go. And so I asked him, is there going to be some sort of quid pro quo where if we put state funded birds on private land? Well, is that going to result in more access? Cause that sounds like a great deal for me, or at least a silver lining. Um, and he said, that is the intent, but they're not in conversations with any specific landowners at this point.

• 1:26:13Speaker 04

  And not a great track record to date.

• 1:26:15Speaker 05

  What about stocking those suckers on federal land?

• 1:26:18Speaker 06

  Federal land, he didn't address specifically. He just said, that's part of the request.

• 1:26:22Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:26:22Speaker 06

  But it, it, I, I then called a few senators who had written, local or state senators who had written a letter against this. And they just find it unlikely that the 4.5 million acres of state grassland we have is not suitable enough for even 50,000 pheasants. It's like, what, why do we need to go get more land? Like what, what's going on here? And, and that's an open question. I, I don't know what the, the decision is or the decision-making process.

• 1:26:47Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:26:48Speaker 04

  I mean, the timing here is not great with like drought conditions across the West. We're probably going to see, uh, open grazing on our state WMAs again this year, really reducing that habitat. Um, that's if, if we don't get some more, more rain here in, in August.

• 1:27:05Speaker 05

  There's that and is there evidence that this results in youth?

• 1:27:11Speaker 06

  Yep. So that's what I asked, uh, the FWP spokesman. I said, well, if this is a whole, you know, youth hunter recruitment, what, how are we measuring that? Are there stats that have brought, have, have borne this out? Is there great hunter recruitment? And he said that they're, they're diligently trying to get better stats, but there's not a vehicle in place at this point.

• 1:27:29Speaker 04

  I mean, since that 2019 and the, everybody was screaming about R three, R three, R three, R three. And obviously there's a lot of people who scream about R three today, but it is a failure. It just is a failure. Like R three is just not a, as it is as like a federal driven program to the states is just not the thing that is producing more hunters. Um, having this type of opportunity. I, I know several people, Ronnie Bame being one, he's like, if it weren't for pen raised pheasants, I wouldn't be a bird hunter.

• 1:28:10Speaker 05

  Sure. I mean, that's the way it was when I was growing up in Pennsylvania, but you, you can, you can say that all you want. Mont, he didn't grow up in Montana.

• 1:28:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:28:21Speaker 05

  Montana has wild birds and they got quite a few of them.

• 1:28:24Speaker 04

  Okay. So here's the wild bird argument, right? And this is, this is South Dakota who is like.

• 1:28:31Speaker 05

  It, yeah, the pinnacle.

• 1:28:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. And if South, like South Dakota

• 1:28:37Speaker 04

  would be like the most aggressive, uh, lover at the bar because they solicit hunters like no other state I've ever seen. Um, their argument to releasing pen raised birds is after that first week of the season,

• 1:28:57Speaker 04

  most people, if they're having success out there, they're knocking down pen raised birds. And it takes the pressure off of those wild birds that are going to winter over and have successful broods. And that's why they have their program of like supplementation, right? And so

• 1:29:17Speaker 04

  they, you know, you have those preserve licenses out there where, where the private landowners are releasing tons and tons of birds. And that's what the idea is. Like there's tons of suitable habitat. And so the birds, they're, they're planning on the pen raised birds to die.

• 1:29:35Speaker 05

  Yeah. It's like, we know they're going to get killed. So we, we're protecting the wild birds kind of thing.

• 1:29:41Speaker 04

  When you go out with a bunch of new hunters and they slam their truck doors and you're watching birds fly out the end. You're like, well, there go the, the wild birds.

• 1:29:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Speaker 04

  And the ones that we.

• 1:29:52Speaker 05

  That one right there.

• 1:29:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:29:54Speaker 05

  Um, yeah, I kind of look at it, you know, I, there, obviously there's, there's some decent arguments for both sides, but I kind of, in Montana, I look at it the way I look at how Montana decided to manage wild trout. So 50 odd years ago, Montana made the decision that if there's an established wild trout population in a river or a stream, we're not going to stock. There, there's no reason to stock trout in those streams, right? Like you have a, a self sustaining wild population. Leave it alone. Let it's do its thing. Like we, we may stock like lakes for put and take fisheries, but for wild trout populations

• 1:30:39Speaker 05

  that are self sustaining, leave them alone. That's kind of where I'm at with this pheasant thing, you know?

• 1:30:45Speaker 04

  With the exception of improving habitat.

• 1:30:47Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 1:30:47Speaker 04

  That's like.

• 1:30:48Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I think, I, I think generally like, I'm not anti stocking. I just, I think that this program could use some tweaking. When you get into the, the issues with pheasant stocking kind of across the board, but also here specifically, uh, some stats from pheasants forever is that 40% die within a week. 75% die within a month and 95% die before the spring. And so you, you know, your, your comments about shooting the pen raised birds, those, those stand. But then when you get into the deal for the actual taxpayer and the trade off versus habitat, uh, improvement, we are paying like the, the between Pittman Robertson and license sales, $50 a pheasant. $500,000 a year at 10,000 pheasants is $50 a pheasant.

• 1:31:32Speaker 05

  You can go buy like a 15 pound organic turkey for 50 bucks.

• 1:31:36Speaker 06

  You can go to a pheasant farm. You can go to Miller Ranch and buy one for 45 bucks.

• 1:31:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:31:41Speaker 06

  If you want.

• 1:31:42Speaker 04

  And I do, there, there was, there's one really good study out there and, and that's where they, they talk about like, here's what happens if you just stock pheasants. Here's what happens if you stock pheasants and do like a heavy predator management program. Here's what happens if, if you do the full management, you know, um, and I, yeah, I think there's a significant die off of birds regardless in the first 36 hours. Um.

• 1:32:10Speaker 05

  But isn't it also fair to say that if you've got good habitat? It like, you're already, good habitat already in some ways mitigates the impact of predators on wild pheasant populations.

• 1:32:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:32:25Speaker 05

  Right?

• 1:32:25Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:32:25Speaker 05

  It's kind of doing some of the predator management work for you.

• 1:32:29Speaker 04

  Yep. Yeah. And you know, I've, I've joked many, many times, right? If, if a Montana pheasant knew about South Dakota or Kansas or Iowa state, yeah, they, they just wouldn't be here. Um, cause the, like Kansas, what Kansas does on, on their, uh,

• 1:32:50Speaker 06

  Uh, WMA properties, I can't remember what their acronym is, is unreal. There's, there's holdover food crops that they plant. There's all sorts of stuff and it is gorgeous.

• 1:33:02Speaker 05

  It is wild. To be fair, there, there are some wildlife management areas in Montana and fishing access sites in Montana where there's fantastic habitat.

• 1:33:11Speaker 06

  Yeah. And they're pumping in the cash. Yeah.

• 1:33:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:33:14Speaker 06

  Yep. But we could certainly see a lot more of it because there's, there's some places.

• 1:33:20Speaker 05

  Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like, do you want to play the instant gratification game with that? What is it? 2.5 million?

• 1:33:28Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah. I mean, it's one million a year.

• 1:33:30Speaker 05

  One. Okay. The instant gratification game with one million? Or do you want to play the long game with that one million?

• 1:33:36Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:33:37Speaker 05

  And do what Cal suggests and invest in habitat?

• 1:33:40Speaker 06

  Yep. And I think that's just, just to hit the kind of the pro, to give it a fair shake, the pro stalkers, um, the youth hunter activation. I mean, just in the room, you know, we had, we had Phil, not a youth hunter, but shot his pheasant that was probably stocked. Um, the inmate skills program, that's not pointless. You know, that's a valuable thing that can, that can increase quality of life for people. Um, there is a prison budget deficit and filling that is a good thing. I think you should go to the general fund and ask for it that way, but this is a method. Um, and then also like those, that farm is compliant with all of USDA's health, health, um, like the USDA's natural poultry improvement plan. They, they have very strict testing. They have very strict protocols. They go above

• 1:34:23Speaker 06

  and beyond. And so there is a disease risk for sure. Um, but they're doing what they can to mitigate it. And so it's not like this is just a flippant program where if they're going to release bird flu into the, the local pheasant population. Um, I think we've kind of talked about the anti, but you know, habitat improvement instead of, I'm not sure it's a zero sum game, but if I could put those million dollars that are currently going towards stalking into habitat, I think every hunter would take that every day of the week. Um,

• 1:34:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. Cause it's like, the byproduct is like big whitetails, big mule deer.

• 1:34:59Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 1:35:00Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:35:01Speaker 06

  It's not just more pheasants.

• 1:35:02Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. And you can keep cranking out. Um, you can keep cranking out stocked pheasants as long as you want and spending that money, but like you can't keep cranking out good habitat, right? Like there's only so much land out there. So, you know, you can pay for stock pheasants or you can pay for land that'll be around for the next generation. It's kind of the way I look at it.

• 1:35:28Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I think ultimately there's, there's like decent bones here. I think the intent could be good. And, and to your comment about Idaho, Cal, that, that might be a good tweak to this program. I just think as it's being currently executed, it's not very well thought out. Um, but the, the cool thing was just, this is kind of my first experience with like local government and calling my, you know, you're always telling people to call your local senator and, uh, Pat Flowers, my, my represent or my senator here in Belgrade, uh, had his phone number online and I texted him, he called me right back and gave me his two cents on it. Greg Lemon at, uh, FWP, he called me right back and, and gave me their, their take on it and it was super helpful. And so go do the same thing. In this case, public comments open July 1st to August 19th. Um, so have at it.

• 1:36:12Speaker 05

  Heck yeah. Nice work, Nate. Um, Randall, you're going to be hosting next week.

• 1:36:20Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:36:20Speaker 05

  Steve's going to be out for a couple more weeks. You're hosting.

• 1:36:23Speaker 03

  Yes. I am hosting the new show next week. Uh, I think we have.

• 1:36:29Speaker 05

  You got any juicy like teasers for us?

• 1:36:32Speaker 03

  I haven't given any thought to what I'm going to do, actually.

• 1:36:34Speaker 05

  Man, send Randall an idea for what we're going to do.

• 1:36:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Uh, no, that's coming up. Very exciting. Very exciting. Uh, I wish I were up, uh, where Steve is right now, having the adventure of a lifetime, but we must carry on in his absence. And so rest assured that we'll do our level best to, uh, give you once again, another great news show.

• 1:36:56Speaker 05

  Yeah. And Steve will be making an appearance, correct Nate? He's gonna, he's gonna cover the, the grizzly management thing that's going on where, where the feds would like to hand over management of grizzlies to the states. Steve's going to weigh in on that via video, uh, for our next show. So just tune in for that. Thanks a lot, guys.

• 1:37:18Speaker 03

  Nice job, Brody.

• 1:37:19Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:37:19Speaker 06

  Well, thanks.

• 1:37:46Speaker 06

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