Pod Insights The MeatEater Podcast Ep. 691: BONUS DROP - Bear Grease: Confessions of a Former Outlaw About this episode In this episode of The Bear Grease Podcast, host Clay Newcomb is joined by Oklahoma man Johnny Johnston as he shares the honest, transparent, and nitty-gritty details of his life story and his relationship to wildlife law, but more importantly about the transformation that he underwent that brought him out of this dark time in his life.
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Transcript 10,294 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:51 Steven Rinella? What you're about to hear is an episode of the Bear Grease Podcast called Confessions of a Former Outlaw. I'm including it here on the Meat Eater Podcast feed for a couple of different reasons. Reason number one is because it is so damn good and interesting, and also because the man you're going to be hearing from is like no one else on this planet. The second reason I'm including it here is because this episode was giving Clay a lot of consternation. It was giving him fits. He was scared of doing this show. He was scared of doing the show because he was afraid of people thinking that he was
2:34 Steven Rinella? glorifying a poacher or an outlaw, when in fact, you're going to hear a story about redemption. And two, Clay was nervous about putting a spotlight on this individual you're going to be hearing from. He sent me the episode. I listened to it, and I told him, "Man, there is no way you can can this episode, dude. You have to run with this show." And I believed in it so much, I wanted him to put it right here, so that as many people as possible could hear it. So, check it out. If you like what you're hearing, make sure to subscribe to the Bear Grease Podcast feed, and enjoy.
3:18 Speaker 02 I had it explained to me one time by a judge in court, not hunting. Seemed like I'd killed a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, "Why'd you do this?" I said, "Well, where I'm from, when your tomatoes get ripe, you pick them. When your potatoes get ripe, you dig them. When your turkeys are ripe, you go get you one." Yeah, but he said, "That's not the way we do it. You have laws that govern when you can kill them and when you can't." But he explained that to me.
3:55 Speaker 03 I traveled a couple of hours south and slightly west from my home on Wednesday, March 26, 2025, to meet with a man who I was told might be the most interesting man in LaFleur County, Oklahoma. I hardly knew anything about him, and oddly, though I talk to people for a living, while I was in my truck, and when I got within about two miles of his cabin, I started to get nervous. He was described to me as a kind man, loved by those who know him, but with a checkered past and an uncanny expertise in wild turkeys. Why he'd agreed to talk with me, I wasn't sure, and I began to doubt
4:37 Speaker 03 why I had agreed to come. This is real rural America, not the curated version that I sometimes like to talk about. This one has addiction, illegal hunting, and broken relationships. But I had no idea I'd be impacted so much. This is an unusual Bear Grease, dark at times, funny at others, but I was surprised at the arc of redemption. You'll have to forgive me because I'm still sorting out the details, but I'd like to share with you the confessions of this former outlaw. I really doubt that you're gonna want to miss this one.
5:27 Speaker 03 My name is Clay Newcomb, and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight in unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. Presented by FHF Gear, American-made, purpose-built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore.
6:01 Speaker 02 I had a friend and people that hunt knowing Ben Rogers Lee. Ben Lee, world champion caller, hunter, good friend. Ben got killed in a vehicle accident. He was at my turkey camp and we hunted the first part of season. And he tried to get me to quit and go with him to Alabama. He said, "You like this game. You're good at it. I see it in you. I see potential in you. You need to quit what you're doing and go with me and I'll make you famous and me rich."
6:38 Speaker 02 And I said, "No, I can't quit what I got. I got a good job, a good family, got cattle. I can't do that."
6:46 Speaker 03 This is the voice of Johnny Johnston. You've probably never heard of him, but I doubt that you'll forget him. On the walk from the truck to the door of his cabin, I estimated there to be no less than 12 well-taken-care-of hunting dogs scattered within sight. Beagles, running walkers, and bird dogs. To Johnny, being called a hillbilly is a term of endearment, and he identifies as one. And by his definition, the highest-ranking qualification has nothing to do with hounds or overalls, but it's not being superficial. This story is about Johnny's life, and we'll learn some foundational stuff that started on this hunt with Ben Lee.
7:29 Speaker 02 So, he left. I stayed, continued to hunt. Hunt was over. End of season, I was going to go out west and turkey hunt. And I had a gun and some stuff at Octavia, a friend of mine's house. And I was supposed to be in there to got my stuff and I never showed up, so he came looking for me. And found me, I'd flipped my Jeep over.
7:56 Speaker 02 Broke my neck, broke my back, cut my left ear off, crushed a foot, bunch of ribs, critical condition. Well, they loaded me in the back of a Bronco and took me to the hospital and my wife was there, pretty upset. I don't remember any of it. There was some drinking involved.
8:16 Speaker 03 Hmm.
8:17 Speaker 02 There is something to that, drinking and driving, because since I've quit drinking 15 years, 319 days ago, I hadn't had a ride.
8:27 Speaker 03 When people know to the day how long they've been sober, the days prior to that were probably tough. Johnny is from the small town of Heavener, Oklahoma. He was born in 1949. He's 75 years old. He's been married to the same woman for 55 years. He's of average height, he has a wiry build with dark eyes that squint tight when he smiles. We're inside of a small, white cabin with interior walls of rough sawn oak. Turkey beards hanging wads from deer antlers like clusters of grapes. Every single beard has a tag attached to it. There's no cell service here, but he doesn't own a cellphone or a computer.
9:12 Speaker 03 He never has. Let's get back to the hospital. This wreck sounds really bad.
9:18 Speaker 02 But I was telling her they would fix me the best they could, right then, and they could later come back and fix my ear. And I said, "Oh, I forgot to tell you, my ear's in the right front pocket of my camouflage."
9:33 Speaker 03 You told them that?
9:35 Speaker 02 I told the doctor that, yeah, on the gurney going into surgery, and he said, "Go look in his clothes and see if you can find an ear." And a nurse came running down the hall and said, "I've got an ear." And so they took my ear, and he said, "We'll do the best we can," and I rared up again and said, "Ay, sew that on backwards where I can hear them turkeys walking behind me."
10:05 Speaker 03 That story tips us off to two things. How central wild turkeys have been in his life, and that he is a character. This whole story is about Johnny's life, some of it very personal, but I'm interested in his relationship with the law as it relates to wild turkeys. People's relationship to the law is helpful in understanding our society. Not the one we think we have, but the one we actually do have. Johnny is a rare find, willing to be vulnerable when a stranger showed up, me, and asked about some of the darkest times of his life. I think we should start off with that credit to his ledger. In the last three years, no less than half a dozen people have emphatically told me
10:50 Speaker 03 that I needed to come here to Johnny's, including a game warden, but nobody could really articulate why. There's a lot I don't know about Johnny, so I'm gonna begin with a question about his friendship to a particularly famous turkey hunter. You may have heard of him. Tell me about your relationship with Ben Lee.
11:12 Speaker 02 He was a super nice guy, big man, walkingest, hootinest, yappinest human I ever saw. He went from daylight till dark, charged them turkeys. He knew turkeys, he knew how to hunt, he had a call of company, made calls. He was just a good fellow, I liked him. He just had a way with people.
11:37 Speaker 03 Now, how did you meet him?
11:38 Speaker 02 Through a friend of mine hunting down there, and I told him where they could find some turkeys, and they went there and hunted, and he said, "I wanna meet this guy that told us about this spot where the turkeys are." And I'd say, "I met him." He invited me up there to talk, and we just went hunting and killed a turkey and hit it off. He'd come down and camp with me over spring after that.
12:01 Speaker 03 This story isn't about Ben Rogers Lee, but his connection to Johnny is beyond interesting. Ben was from Jackson, Alabama, and has been referred to as the father of modern turkey hunting. He started his call company, Ben Lee Calls, in 1970, and made a flurry of instructional tapes, videos, seminars, and won five Turkey Calling World Championships. He was a southern-style storyteller and was one of the great communicators of American turkey hunting. Here's a clip of Ben Lee.
12:35 Speaker 04 She starts sitting out there in them woods. She's laid a few eggs, you know. He gets up there in the morning at four o'clock, you know, and the old owl, well, he'll owl. "Ooh, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo, hoo." Wakes him up and he'll "Ooh, hoo, hoo, hoo." Boy, he just happy as a loon. I mean, he's just ready for everything to happen. The sun comes up.
12:54 Speaker 02 Instructional tapes were a big then. Turkey hunting was just getting going. Mouth calls were just coming out. My old turkey hunting friends, one that I hunted with, used a goat horn and a piece of slate. Now, how excited could you get on a goat horn? They clucked a couple of times and three soft yelps and put it down. And that was completely reversed the way Ben Lee hunted. He never shut up. He walked, calling. Turkey gobbled, he didn't dive in the brush pile. He'd start to that turkey, calling and walking to it. And he would get right on them and put some turkey stuff to them. He told me one time, he said, "You like this game,
13:39 Speaker 02 but you gotta keep in mind, if you hunt these turkeys like they need to be hunted, you won't have no friends. Your family'll be mad at you. You'll probably lose your job."
13:52 Speaker 02 He went on and on about all bad things that can happen to you. I said, "Well, it can't be that bad." He said, "I'm talking about if you really hunt turkey." Now, there's people that turkey hunt, and there's people that really hunt them.
14:05 Speaker 03 I get the feeling Johnny is one of those turkey hunters that really hunts them, and that these hanging, tagged beards aren't the only turkeys this man has killed. His friendship with Ben Lee is gonna lead us right into something critical.
14:22 Speaker 05 Did you know him personally very well? Like, was he married? Did he have a family?
14:28 Speaker 02 He'd been married 13 times.
14:30 Speaker 05 Are you serious?
14:31 Speaker 02 I'm serious. That's what he told me. I didn't know all of his wives. I knew several of them. But he said, "If you really hunt them turkeys right," that's when he said about the family and your job and all that.
14:45 Speaker 05 He was speaking from experience?
14:46 Speaker 02 From experience, yeah.
14:48 Speaker 05 Was he, was he kind of an outlaw?
14:51 Speaker 02 Sort of.
14:52 Speaker 05 Would you say he was?
14:54 Speaker 02 I hate to category people, but yeah, he's kinda like myself.
15:00 Speaker 03 Interesting. He was kinda like myself, he said. An outlaw. I'd heard this about Johnny and Ben, but I didn't know for sure about Johnny. I kinda put him on the spot, and he was hesitant to categorize his old friend in this way. But Johnny kinda tells stuff the way it is. But again, this story isn't about Ben Lee, who passed away in a car accident in 1991 at the age of 46. This story is about Johnny Johnston. And as you may know, I have a lot of respect for people willing to be honest about their past. I've often found people like Johnny to be more honest than people with less visible issues lurking in
15:43 Speaker 03 their past. And I know that people like Johnny are usually cut from a different cloth. In this next question, I cut right to the chase, and you'll hear the nervousness in my voice.
15:58 Speaker 05 Was, with you, did you, uh...
16:04 Speaker 03 Did you ever have any, did the law ever mean anything to you?
16:09 Speaker 02 No.
16:10 Speaker 03 Why wouldn't it? Because most people it does.
16:13 Speaker 02 The law itself, or you mean the turkey law?
16:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
16:17 Speaker 02 No. When turkeys gobbled, I hunted them.
16:20 Speaker 03 Just, you just weren't afraid of getting in trouble?
16:23 Speaker 02 No. Never crossed my mind. I had it explained to me one time by a judge in court, not hunting. Seems like I'd killed a turkey during the wrong dates and times. He said, "Why'd you do that?" I said, "Well, where I'm from, when your tomatoes get ripe, you pick them. When your potatoes get ripe, you dig them. When your turkeys are ripe, you go get you one."
16:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, but he said, "That's not the way we do it. You have laws that govern when you can kill them and when you can't." He explained that to me.
17:05 Speaker 03 Americans are intrigued by people willing to break the law, period. If you need convincing, just look at the top movies, podcasts, and books we read. Heck, look at the top Bear Grease podcasts. But I'm still trying to understand why. I think examinations of extremes help calibrate society in some tribal, primitive way. Almost like we get the signal for normal by bouncing off the outliers. But there's no debate about it. What's ironic is that we are a society of rule followers. If our civilization gets smashed by a comet, and archaeologists dig it up and start making conclusions about us,
17:47 Speaker 03 they'll find that this country was built on law and order. The vast majority of people who come to a stop sign in the middle of the night, even though they know that no one is watching, they're gonna stop. I mean, at least a Roland stop. And in many places in the world, they wouldn't at all, even when they know people are watching. Americans are rule followers, despite the independent, libertyaholic, brash exterior. But the outliers are worth examination, and Johnny was an outlier when it came to wildlife law. We need to know more about his past.
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22:07 Speaker 05 Now, let me, this is kind of a personal question, but would your parents have raised you to just obey the law?
22:13 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
22:14 Speaker 05 Just like in general, like you would have known you can't steal or you can't?
22:20 Speaker 02 No, my folks were by the book all the way.
22:22 Speaker 05 Well, how did, how did you get from that to being willing to break the law?
22:27 Speaker 02 I don't know. Just getting in the world and not really caring, just doing pretty much what I wanted to do. Yeah.
22:36 Speaker 05 Now, did you ever really get in trouble? Did you ever get caught like killing a legal turkey?
22:41 Speaker 02 Yeah. I just didn't ever give it a whole lot of thought. When turkey's a goblin, I just went hunting.
22:49 Speaker 03 Stories like this can make people feel uncomfortable, especially people that love wildlife and conservation and talk about it a lot. But this is part of the rural America that I grew up around. Turkey laws were often seen as mere suggestions. This next story is about the man who taught Johnny to turkey hunt and the first time they got caught.
23:12 Speaker 02 I can't talk about turkeys with talking about my old friend, the man that taught me how to turkey hunt. Superman. Yeah, we been caught. He lived at Tallahany, Oklahoma, and I can't call his name. He's dead and gone now, and he's respected by every turkey hunter in that part of the world. Wayne Cox. Turkey killing this man I've ever met, have ever known. And I knew that he hunted a lot. Back when I started, I didn't even know him. I went. He was a horseman, had a good racehorse, stood a racehorse stallion, and I was kind of a horseman back in the day, and that's how I knew him.
23:55 Speaker 02 So I looked him up and got acquainted with him. And I said, "Here's what I want. I want you to teach me how to turkey hunt. No holds barred. I want to know it all." Well, he said, "Next spring, you'll just have to come over here. We'll go." I said, "Well, when? When?" He said, "Oh, first of March is a good time."
24:16 Speaker 03 If you're a turkey hunter, you'll know that 98% of American turkey seasons don't open in the first of March. This was an invite to get an illegal early start.
24:27 Speaker 02 Okay. So first of March. I went date with him, and we hunted. And he was little I know about a turkey. That old gentleman taught me. He was slick as a snot on a doorknob.
24:45 Speaker 02 He used a wing bone, or a piece of cane, or a briar leaf, or a peech's leaf later on in the year, or a sleigh, called very little, very light, you could be sitting next to him and barely hear him call. But he didn't call to a turkey unless he was seventy yards close. He used the terrain, the land, to cover a darkness, to get to them. He said, "There's no such thing as working a turkey." People talked about working a turkey for two hours, he said, "That should never happen." If they're right on that turkey, they'll have him killed in ten minutes.
25:26 Speaker 02 One cluck, two clucks, that's enough, put your call up. And he showed me some moves, pretty slick. He was a good guy, but he didn't pay a lot of attention to season. When the turkey's gobbled, he went. We were one day in there behind his place, and two turkeys. He gave me the easy one, and he took the hard one, further. And we met back, we had two turkeys. He said, "We was walking back to the jeep, and one gobbled off in a big old rough canyon. That's yours, give me that turkey."
26:10 Speaker 02 I'm going, "Gee." So, I went off down there, nothing, couldn't do nothing with him, wallowed him around, couple hours, come back, went to the jeep. Well, he said, "We've been called." "What do you mean, 'we've been called'?" Well, he said, "I've been called. Game warden was here when I got here, got a ticket." "Hmm, you got two tickets." So, that's the first time we'd ever been in any problem, and we hunted all the time, for us.
26:41 Speaker 05 Well, did he tell the game warden that you were down there?
26:43 Speaker 02 No, no, he was never told that. He said, "I hurried up and took the ticket, 'cause I know you was gonna shoot any minute."
26:52 Speaker 03 This is where the story starts to get complicated. It was back in the mid-seventies, and would be the start of about thirty years of illegal turkey hunting for Johnny.
27:04 Speaker 02 My dad used to get on to me a lot for hunting too much.
27:08 Speaker 05 Really? So your dad?
27:10 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
27:10 Speaker 05 Knew that you were illegally hunting?
27:12 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. He wouldn't do it.
27:14 Speaker 05 What would he say to you?
27:15 Speaker 02 I'd call him and ask for a ride somewhere, let me out and pick me up at a certain time. He knew what I was doing.
27:22 Speaker 05 What would he say? Do you remember anything specific? Like he was like, Johnny? This is bad. You're gonna get in trouble.
27:28 Speaker 02 You know better than that.
27:30 Speaker 05 But he still helped you?
27:31 Speaker 02 Yeah. He would. He didn't like it, but he would.
27:34 Speaker 05 Yeah. Did he ever hide guns in the woods?
27:36 Speaker 02 Oh, man. Yeah. I had a couple of logs up here. I'd put them in and I had a new shotgun I was really proud of. I put it in there and the wood rats, he'd stop there. Shoot it all up.
27:52 Speaker 05 Just like in a couple of days?
27:54 Speaker 02 Yeah. I'd leave it. Yeah, they'd just eat on it and eat on it. So I'd get me a big PVC pipe, put it in.
28:02 Speaker 05 Cap?
28:03 Speaker 02 And another time or two, I got a chuckle. Control burns, that causes you some fugality. I had a gun back over here and I was staying here in a camper. And I came in that day and took a nap. And when I got up, you couldn't see for the smoke. I thought, crap, I've got a branding shotgun and a log up there. Right in that far. So I'd get it on my four wheeler and I'd take off up there. Well, I'd come around and there's just people everywhere. Bulldozers and fire lighters and... I was trying to get around and they were trying to stop me.
28:40 Speaker 05 Did it burn your gun up?
28:41 Speaker 02 No. I got to them and got to it. Boy, it was pretty smoky. And it was getting pretty close.
28:49 Speaker 02 And then, another time, a funny little deal, I got a chuckle out of it. I hit a turkey and a gun up here on a dead end road. And I went back up there to get it later. Everything good. Everything okay. And there was a bulldozer and a low boy sitting there, not 10 foot from that turkey and that gun. Boy, I bet he ran over that gun when he unloaded that dozer. But he didn't. He missed it about that far. Yeah. And they were doing something and we snuck around, got the gun and turkey and got out of there.
29:27 Speaker 03 This is some pretty serious outlawing. Illegal turkey hunters often hid guns in the woods where they knew turkeys were close, so they could drive to and from the spot without a gun in the truck, making it almost impossible for game wardens to pin them down. It might seem unusual for us to be talking about this so openly, but the reason he's so comfortable is that today Johnny doesn't have anything to hide. Because when he hit the bottom 15 years 319 days ago, everything was laid bare. That story is coming. I'd rather someone tell it to me like it happened than try to sugarcoat it. I think we need to fill in the gaps in Johnny's history, though.
30:11 Speaker 03 I'm interested in his upbringing.
30:15 Speaker 02 I was born in Heavener, Oklahoma. Just ordinary people. My dad worked for the railroad. All my family worked for the railroad. I grew up just a normal boy playing sports. My dad quail hunted some. I just went crazy about it. I love it. That's what I do. That's my law. And I played sports and rodeo and was raised on a horse. Rode a horse to a ball practice and rode a horse everywhere I went, swimming and everything. And the hunting part of it, I just kind of figured it out on my own. I just, my dad deer hunted a little bit and he had taken me and he gave me a 30/30 and I just started deer hunting.
31:00 Speaker 02 And then just talking to people and learning how to hunt and doing it and learning from my mistakes. That's a big thing we can learn in our lives by our mistakes.
31:13 Speaker 02 I just liked life. I was raised in church and I don't know where I went wrong, but I liked the world better. I did things the hard way and I made a lot of bad choices. But I'm not that way anymore.
31:33 Speaker 03 "I'm not that way anymore," he said. That's actually what all the people that told me about Johnny said. That's really why I'm here. I want to learn more about Johnny's life.
31:47 Speaker 02 One day, my mom made me go to college when I got out of school. And I said, "No, I don't want to go," but she said, "Yeah, you're going." I had a hard time getting along. I'd be late for class. Drinking was a big part of my life. And they suggested that I take a semester off and kind of find myself. Well, in the process, I was going to college at Tallahassee. I fell in with a band of hippies. And I stayed on the hill near the River Bridge in a Frito van for a semester. And I got quite an education.
32:24 Speaker 02 And when I left there, I went to work on the railroad for the summer. And then I was going to go back to school and straighten up, and that never happened. I stayed with the railroad and retired there.
32:38 Speaker 03 Johnny started working for the railroad in 1970 and was a train engineer for decades. But the spring of 1975 was the first time that he ever turkey hunted. This is when it all started.
32:52 Speaker 02 It was around 75, I started having a turkey hunt. And I didn't know anyone that ever turkey hunted. I didn't even know what a turkey call was. I knew two older men. And my dad told me that they had killed turkeys. They had hunted them. So I went and talked to them. And they showed me a few moves on a turkey call. That April, we had a season. I got a call off Mr. Phillips. And I went up on the hill. We had a cabin. And I'd seen some turkeys there deer hunting. And I went up on the hill and laid my gun up against a tree. Whacked the box, and a turkey gobble shot me. And I looked, and it was running right at me. And I dropped my call and shot the turkey, and he ran off.
33:38 Speaker 02 That was the first encounter I'd had with a wild turkey, and I was hooked right to him.
33:43 Speaker 03 Did you get the turkey, or did he get away from you?
33:45 Speaker 02 No, he got away. But I was walking around the way he went, looking for him. And I heard another one gobble. And I called to him, and he came. And I shot him and got him. So I'm a turkey killer now.
34:01 Speaker 02 And I've hunted them ever since, just like they done something to my mama. I've had the opportunity, I hunted with doctors, lawyers, Indian chief, one of my favorite people, the chief of the Cherokee Nation, he's a good guy.
34:17 Speaker 03 Hmm.
34:18 Speaker 02 My mom was part Indian.
34:20 Speaker 03 Hmm.
34:21 Speaker 02 I'm a quarter, but I like Indians, they got a good spirit, a good feel for the woods, water, the wind, they like all that stuff. That may be part of why I'm drawn to it, I don't know. I like them, I respect turkeys. I got more respect for a turkey gobbler than a lot of people, I'll promise you.
34:42 Speaker 03 A statement like this coming from a confessed lawbreaker could certainly ruffle your feathers, but I think what he's really saying is that turkey hunting meant so much to him that he was willing to risk it all to hunt them, but the functionalization of that passion was awry. There are some things in life that seem to be built for temptation, uniquely appealing but forbidden, and a goblin turkey before season has been the downfall of many a man. I've never known a woman to be a turkey outlaw. And if you've listened to me enough, you know that I pray that this story in no way glorifies
35:24 Speaker 03 breaking the law, and I don't think Johnny wants it to either, but like in most things that deal with human nature, they are nuanced, interesting if examined in detail, and insightful if you're willing to listen to people talk who have a different life experience than you. There are so many tidbits of interest in Johnny's story, it's like being confused on a covey rise by how many targets are in front of you. The thing that stands out most to me is Johnny's honesty about a dishonest past. He's not blaming anyone for his decisions, and he's not seeking attention or any kind of glory at all.
36:05 Speaker 03 I pried his arm to get him to talk to me, and I'm the one that came to him. And if something goes awry in the fact that this story was released, it's Clay Newcomb that's to blame, not Johnny. Johnny remembered a story from the 1980s that he thinks I need to hear.
36:26 Speaker 02 I probably need to tell you that story, don't I? I had a cabin on Podo Mountain and it leaked. It's a metal roof and I got up there with a hammer and every time I was beating that ridge cap down, trying to get a nail in it to pull that ridge cap down, every time I'd hit that metal a turkey a gobble. This was a couple of weeks before season. I was gonna hunt there that season. But every time I'd hit that sheen there, "Blah, blah, blah." Man, well, it rained that night. Big rain, bad rain. Man, there won't be nobody over here. So I just drove around and I knew close to where he was from my cabin.
37:09 Speaker 02 But I could get up there without getting wet and walk down that road and I'd be right on him. And I yep to him and he gobble right back and when he come, there was three of them. "Oh, boy. Yeah, I don't need three, but I believe I'm gonna get one." And it was a good deal. I done a lot of calling, just seeing what I could get by with. I'm close enough to kill. I'd cut, squawk, and cackle, and yell. Boy, they was putting a show on. So I shot one, got it, went back to my truck, just started to set it over in the back of the truck and my game-oriented friend Randy Fennel stood up behind my truck. He was in the brush pile right there behind my truck. "Gotcha." I said, "Boy, you sure do."
37:55 Speaker 02 I couldn't lie, I couldn't run. So I said, "You ain't had a bad day yourself? Did you hear all that, Randy?" He said, "Oh, yeah, I heard it all. That's as good as it gets, it's just too early. I'm gonna have to ticket you, boy." "Well, I don't blame you. You ain't had a bad day. Here's your gun, here's your truck, here's your turkey. What else you need?" "Well," he said, "I hate to see you taking that so hard. I'm job security for you. Did you hear all that gobbling this morning?" "I ain't going nowhere."
38:22 Speaker 05 You told him that?
38:23 Speaker 02 Yes. I said, "You can make a name for yourself right there. I ain't going nowhere." "Well, I'm gonna take your gun." I said, "Well, you can catch me a couple more times, boy, I'll get nervous."
38:35 Speaker 02 And I said, get in, it started raining again. He had soaked and wet. He had sat in the rain, probably biggest part of the morning in the dark, cause he didn't come in there. I'd have seen his truck. I said, get in, I'll take you to your truck. He said, after all this, you'll give me a ride. I said, well, I'm a good guy. If you knew me, you'd like me. I ain't a bad guy. You can make a name for yourself right here. I hope they promote you and move you to Oklahoma City, get you out of these woods. I hauled him right to his truck. We still talk.
39:05 Speaker 03 Now, okay, when you describe how calm you were today, forty years later, as you tell that story, you're like, super calm. And I think a lot of times, we kind of rewrite stuff in our head. Were you that calm for real when that guy, you didn't care?
39:25 Speaker 02 No, he'd tell you the same thing if he were here today. He'd tell you the same thing.
39:29 Speaker 03 Okay, so there, there's these rock climbers, these, these free climbers that climb these big granite faces out and, out west. And they talk about how those guys are superhuman when it comes to dealing with anxiety. And they, they're just able to climb on these rocks where me or you, a normal guy, would be scared to death. Their brain doesn't equate the consequence of falling like a normal person's. I still don't understand why you wouldn't be afraid, cause it's not like you're rich and could just pay tickets, no big deal. They're gonna take your truck, they're gonna take your gun, just for what you had going on in your life. And at that time too, I guess you were, were you an alcoholic at that time?
40:13 Speaker 03 So, I mean, there was a lot of, I guess, of rough stuff going on.
40:15 Speaker 02 Pretty much, yeah.
40:17 Speaker 03 So, it's just, it's just like turkey hunting was not something you were worried about?
40:21 Speaker 02 When I loaded him in the truck, I had a thought that nervous me just a little bit. Right between me and him laying on the seat with a bag of dope and a deer horn pipe. And I very casually scooted a glove over it.
40:41 Speaker 02 And that unnerved me a little bit, but as far as killing a turkey a few days early, no, it didn't bother me at all. Getting caught didn't bother me. I don't know, maybe I just look at it different.
40:55 Speaker 03 We're starting to see that his problems with the law were bigger than just turkeys. He could have left out that little detail, but he didn't, and I appreciate that. What's ironic is that today marijuana is legal in most places, but at the time Johnny might have gone to jail for it. But I'd like to examine his statement about looking at wildlife laws different. That could sound like the typical excuse, but Johnny brings up an interesting point that if not addressed could assault the intellectual integrity of our discussion, which I am greatly enjoying.
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44:34 Speaker 03 My point is nuanced and it has to do with how different generations view life, laws, and ethics. By my observation, some people, emphasis on some, raised in rural America that were adults by the 1960s viewed game laws as mere suggestions.
44:56 Speaker 03 And it was even validated by the legal system of the time as they simply ticketed people with relatively minimal consequences, making the crime feel not that much different than a speeding ticket. I'm not suggesting that it was ever right to break the law. The Bible says that men should obey the laws of men, and by doing so, they're ultimately obeying God. And that book was written long before 1960. But people raised later in the progression of American conservation were more likely to respect and obey wildlife laws. By the 1990s, average hunters were becoming indoctrinated with functional ideas about
45:36 Speaker 03 conservation, and it became much more mainstream to obey the law, to the point that outlawing has fallen more and more out of style. At least, this is what I have witnessed with my own eyes. But you'll have to listen to this and tell me what you think.
45:52 Speaker 05 Now, what about today, though, Johnny? Because what I've heard from people, and I feel like what I've heard from you is that you don't break the law anymore on purpose.
46:05 Speaker 02 No.
46:06 Speaker 05 Why not?
46:07 Speaker 02 I'm just a better person than I used to be. I used to just didn't care. I care now. I don't go before season now.
46:18 Speaker 05 What about now, probably with more knowledge of conservation? If everybody killed 20 turkeys a year, that would for sure be bad.
46:27 Speaker 02 It'd be wrong.
46:28 Speaker 05 What about from that angle, from just a conservation angle?
46:31 Speaker 02 Now, the way our turkeys are numbers are down, they don't need to be overhunted like that.
46:38 Speaker 05 But so part of your deal was back in the day, we had so many, and there were so few turkey hunters that you just couldn't figure out why it was wrong.
46:46 Speaker 02 Right. I just, I didn't see that much wrong in it. When I first started hunting over here, mid 70s, I'd come over here for two weeks and never see a turkey hunter. Hunt this whole country, all of it. Never even see a hunter. And nobody hunting over there.
47:04 Speaker 05 And it was probably full of turkeys.
47:06 Speaker 02 Anywhere you stop, it made no difference. Anywhere you stop, you hear a turkey call.
47:11 Speaker 05 And so you're sitting here saying, "The game of fish tells me I can kill two turkeys." I mean, you're gonna kill more than that.
47:17 Speaker 02 Probably. It's a different time.
47:22 Speaker 03 "It was a different time," he said. And I want to point out that he's literally describing a former time. Penalties were different, turkey populations were higher, turkey hunter numbers were way lower, and it was more common for his generation and their mentors to take wildlife laws less seriously. All this stuff makes me grateful for the generations of American game wardens that have been the interface of the law in our society as it gradually has shifted from the market hunting mentalities of the 1800s to the hyper-informed conservation mindframes of the average modern hunter. We've still got problems today, but things are getting better.
48:05 Speaker 03 I'm still, though, trying to figure out Johnny's motivation. I've got a question for him, and I'm gonna bring up two familiar names from Bear Grease's past that we did on a series called Genuine Outlaws, which started on episode 52.
48:23 Speaker 05 We did this series on Louis Del and Charlie Edwards. It was real clear that they enjoyed getting away from game wardens, and that was a part of the fun that they had. And it felt like, and kinda what the people around them, and I never interviewed Louis Del and Charlie, because they had passed away by the time I did this. It was clear that that was part of the reason that they wanted to kill stuff illegally was just kinda the thrill of getting away with it.
48:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:53 Speaker 05 Was that, do you think that was a part of what you did?
48:55 Speaker 02 Not really, I just liked it. I just liked hunting turkeys, and the time to hunt them is when they're gobbling.
49:02 Speaker 05 It was just that simple?
49:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, that simple. But no, not, not just trying to get away with it, it's just, I don't know, I just did it. I didn't bait them, or hunt them in the summer and shoot them over water, sit around the water hole and try to kill them, I didn't do that. If you hunt a turkey with a turkey call and a shotgun, you're not gonna hurt the population, just shoot gobblers. That's the way I looked at it. I'm not saying that's right. And if everybody did that, it would be bad. But as far as being scared, no.
49:40 Speaker 05 Back in those days, though, a ticket might have been just like $150, just go pay your ticket. Is that right?
49:46 Speaker 02 Yeah. I got caught one time. I got caught, I think, about $270. And after turkey season, I made a deal with the DA that I could pick up trash with the inmates from our prison here at Hodges to pay for the rest of it. And that's what I did.
50:05 Speaker 05 So you picked up trash?
50:06 Speaker 02 I paid him a little cash and picked up trash with them inmates. Boy, they made me a lot of deals, but I couldn't take any of them either. I said, I'll be in here full time with y'all right now. I've got a couple of months here picking up trash. But that's worth killing a turkey. You can't put a price on killing a turkey.
50:25 Speaker 05 Really? That's the way you would?
50:26 Speaker 02 That's the way I looked at it. But as much as I've done it, I've been chased around by a game.
50:33 Speaker 05 Do you think they were after you?
50:34 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know.
50:36 Speaker 05 Do you think they ever worked you undercover?
50:39 Speaker 02 I think.
50:40 Speaker 05 What are you pointing at there?
50:42 Speaker 02 Those bricks. I had a couple of gentlemen show up here that wanted to do that.
50:47 Speaker 05 Do this brick work?
50:48 Speaker 02 Yeah. I said, well, yeah, it'd be a good idea. I needed one, but I don't have it. I said, well, we'll, we're gonna build you one. I didn't think nothing about it. And they started calling my house. I didn't have a phone here. They started calling my house looking for me. And they showed back up and find me in town. And I found that strange. They got nearly through and said, you don't know what to think about us, do you? I said, well, no, not really. But I think you're probably worked for the wildlife department. Maybe undercover trying to catch me. They'd asked me all kinds of turkey stuff and deer stuff and how many.
51:29 Speaker 05 Were they hunters?
51:30 Speaker 02 Claimed to be. I don't know. I wouldn't ever go hunting with them. But they'd just keep coming back, coming back, coming back. And I finally, they said, you don't know what to think about us, do you? I said, well, I think you're undercover, probably trying to catch me in some kind of violation or something. And they loaded their stuff up and left, and I hadn't seen them since.
51:50 Speaker 05 You're pretty certain they were undercover guys?
51:52 Speaker 02 Yeah. Sometimes if you listen, you can hear stuff. If you've got your ears open and your eyes open, you might get a tip from somebody there. And I was kinda on the look.
52:05 Speaker 03 You were just suspicious of these guys?
52:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:07 Speaker 03 Yeah. So, did you get a tip from somebody else?
52:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:12 Speaker 03 How does that make you feel? I mean, at the time, did that, that didn't scare you?
52:16 Speaker 02 No, it made me feel good that that man thought enough of me to save me a problem.
52:21 Speaker 03 Oh, well...
52:22 Speaker 02 No, I wasn't afraid of them. No, game wardens are just people. I'm not afraid of them. People see them coming a lot of times. I've been hunting with people, a game warden drive up, and they just go all to pieces. They say, "We ain't done nothing wrong. The man ain't gonna bother us."
52:41 Speaker 03 Johnny's transparency today is notable. We're going to learn the nitty gritty of why he changed. But first, here's a lighter story about an interaction with a game warden that happened during a legal hunting season. And then after this, we're gonna get real serious.
53:03 Speaker 02 There was an old gentleman we know was calling to a turkey, so we just laid in the ditch. We didn't want to mess them up. We just laid in there to listen. He had whacked a turkey. It gobbled. It wasn't coming. We'd played with him quite a bit. He was not a player. He'd gobble, though. He was fun. And I said, "Look coming up the road there." And here come the game warden, sneaking up the road. And we're laying there, full camouflage, right in the ditch. And he got right even with me. And I said, "Get somewhere and sit down. These are wild turkeys we're hunting here. We can't kill them with you walking up and down the road here. What's the matter with you?" And it addled him, kinda blowed him up or something. He went for his gun, but his lats down.
53:48 Speaker 02 I said, "Boy, you don't need no gun now. We're just, they have another man calling this turkey to sit down here with. If you're gonna hunt with us, you need to get here early and wear some camouflage. You ain't got a shotgun no longer, you know."
54:01 Speaker 03 Now, is this before season?
54:02 Speaker 02 No, this was during season.
54:04 Speaker 03 This is during legal season?
54:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
54:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, we've had some wardens here.
54:13 Speaker 03 Johnny has painted a clear picture of his days of outlawing. But the one thing that those half a dozen people did tell me, one by one, before I met Johnny, is that he is different today. He's changed, they said. Even the game warden suggested this. Throughout this story, you've heard that Johnny used to be an alcoholic, and from one story, we learned that he used some drugs. I wanted to know how that started and why he changed. So I asked him.
54:45 Speaker 02 Well, I just made some bad choices, hanging out with the wrong people. And I'd been around wildcat whiskey and homebrew, and I just didn't handle it very well. And then I got over here, after I got my cabin, there was a preacher that coon hunted a lot. He would stop by to see me, and I was usually too drunk to talk to him, but I'd know he was here. Because I was raised in church, trained up in church, like the books say. But I just let the world get the best of me.
55:30 Speaker 02 But when that preacher started coming here, it kind of got me to thinking. And I woke up one morning up the creek here with, I'd been on a pretty bad drunk. And when I woke up that particular morning, I didn't know where I was, how I got there, didn't know any of them people, didn't know where my truck was. I finally found someone I knew and got them to take me to my truck. In fact, I'd been gone about six months. I come over here to deer hunting, it was after turkey season, and I still hadn't been on.
56:07 Speaker 02 So I'd lost about everything, my wife, my family, my friends, my place, cattle, tractors, but I didn't care. And I woke up one morning up here, and I thought, you're in a bad way, and the only hope for you is Jesus. And by that preacher coming here, I think that kind of rekindled the spirit that had been instilled in me as a kid.
56:38 Speaker 02 And I decided I needed to get right with the Lord and get my life right and try to get my family back. And so, uh, I stopped on top of Horseshoe Mountain one morning, just getting daylight, and I asked the Lord to help me. I'm in a bind. Save me, take this addiction from me, give me my life back. And I drove on to the cabin and I went out here by this fire pit and the sun was coming up then. And I saw a transformation in the east with that sun shining through the clouds like I
57:21 Speaker 02 had never seen before. Had to be a sign from God, a glimpse of heaven, maybe, orange, purple, blue clouds, rays of light shining through them. Pretty amazing. And, uh, my life was changed right there at that fire pit. Believe it or not, it was easier than you think. When you get Jesus involved in it, He took, when I gave my life to Him, He took that addiction from me. Been fifteen years, three hundred and nineteen days. And, uh, I'll serve Him, I believe. And He took that from me.
58:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'd been locked up, dried out, in jail for public drunk, all kinds of stuff. But when I got Jesus in my life through the Holy Spirit, He took that addiction from me. I quit smoking, I quit drinking, I quit everything, right there at that fire pit. It took a few months, but, uh, I had some time. I waited. I got my life back, I got my wife back, my family back. Lord blessed me with a good cabin, a new house, and, uh, I went from being an alcoholic with a drug addiction to a deacon and an ordained minister. And, uh...
58:52 Speaker 02 Some people get saved at an early age. I got a preacher friend told me he was saved when he was nine years old. Never broke any laws. I said, "What'd you get saved from?"
59:08 Speaker 02 "Yeah, I've done it all. What I hadn't done, I just had never thought of or didn't want to try. I've done it all, and it ain't no secret."
59:20 Speaker 02 But I'm not that way anymore. Jesus has given me a whole new life, a whole new heart, and a whole new mindset. I've got my wife back, my family back, about everybody quick.
59:34 Speaker 05 Yeah.
59:35 Speaker 02 Jesus fixed all that, better than it's ever been.
59:39 Speaker 05 That's incredible.
59:40 Speaker 02 I still like to hunt. He goes with me. He likes mountains.
59:48 Speaker 03 It's clear that Johnny has been through the wringer, but it sounds like he's got things figured out now. There's more to people than the worst days of their past, and there's more for you than the worst days of your past. The Confessions of this former outlaw is really a story of redemption. Thank you, Johnny, for sharing the nitty gritty of your story.
1:00:18 Speaker 03 I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease and Brent's This Country Life podcast. Please share this podcast with someone that you know that might be struggling, or somebody that just enjoys a genuine story. Thank you all so much. Keep the wild places wild, because that's where the bears live.
1:00:45 Speaker 02 Lot of train whistles. Sitting right under that whistle, I've lost quite a bit of my hearing. I used to get a hear good, and of course, good, but now I have to have someone go with me, because my son-in-law says, "If you hear a turkey, Johnny, don't go to it. Sit down and start calling. You're already too close."
1:01:05 Speaker 05 If you can hear it, you're already too-
1:01:07 Speaker 02 If you can hear a gobble, you're already too close.
1:01:09 Speaker 05 That's funny.
1:01:10 Speaker 02 It is.
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