Ep. 686: Cooking and Cleaning with Luke Combs

Steven Rinella https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork talks with Luke Combs, Seth Morris, Chester Floyd, and Austin "Chilly" Chleborad. Topics discussed: The finer details of wild turkey management; how to lose listeners; how Steve has a song idea for Luke; nice vs. funny; when you don’t know if you’re gonna be alive long enough to fill a trash bag; the rules of pitch meetings; turkey numbers in the 90s; suppressing Turkey harvest; hating and boning out-of-state hunters; turkey DNA; parenthood and bandwidth; how Luke’s kids think he personally knows every famous person; cleaning up after yourself; the number of songs on a record; and more. Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Steven Rinella?

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• 1:29Steven Rinella?

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• 3:02Speaker 02

  This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case underwearless.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  The Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything.

• 3:13Steven Rinella?

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• 3:34Steven Rinella?

  Joined today by Luke Holmes down in way south Texas. Also here is Seth Morris, Chili's here, and our very own Chester the Divester, who hasn't been on the show as much lately since relocation.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  Yep, been in Wisconsin, bought a home, fixed it up, had a kid, another one.

• 3:54Steven Rinella?

  Damn Chester.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  Been busy.

• 3:56Steven Rinella?

  Dang, double dipping. What we were talking about before we began was we were talking about the problem of,

• 4:02Steven Rinella?

  Luke was saying that he's not there yet on losing, on his old man losing his, I don't even have the vocabulary for this. Readers, needing readers. Needing cheaters, needing readers. Yep.

• 4:14Speaker 05

  And I was, I wanted to share this, I wanted to share it for the audience in general. So I told Luke.

• 4:19Steven Rinella?

  Appreciate that. Appreciate that.

• 4:21Speaker 05

  But you know, it's the thing. You're not there yet.

• 4:23Steven Rinella?

  Not there yet.

• 4:23Speaker 05

  You were talking about, but you now and then.

• 4:26Steven Rinella?

  I find myself doing the squinty thing where you're like, or it like, it looks like you're like almost kind of trying to smell something.

• 4:35Speaker 05

  Do you head bob? Do you, do you do a little in out?

• 4:39Steven Rinella?

  No, I don't do, no, I haven't done that yet. Unless I haven't picked up on it. When I first realized it was happening to me, I found that over your whole life, okay?

• 4:51Steven Rinella?

  If you go to like, pick a sliver out of your kid's foot, or read something that someone's showing you, like a pamphlet, I don't know what the hell, someone hands you something to read. Your body knows right where to put that son of a bitch.

• 5:07Speaker 05

  Interesting.

• 5:08Steven Rinella?

  Cause it's the same decade after decade, right? So your kid gets a sliver, you know, right where you want their foot.

• 5:15Speaker 05

  Right. To see it.

• 5:18Steven Rinella?

  All of a sudden, for me, it wound up being that I would go to my normal spot.

• 5:23Speaker 05

  And that wasn't working.

• 5:24Speaker 06

  And you couldn't see it.

• 5:25Steven Rinella?

  Right? Like you're, you're sort of your brain hasn't even adjusted to the fact that it happened yet. You'd go to your normal spot and it wasn't right. And then you had to search for the right spot.

• 5:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's interesting. I haven't considered that.

• 5:40Speaker 06

  Does your body know now? The spot?

• 5:42Steven Rinella?

  It's better. It's better, but it, it changed it for a while there, like forty four years old, whatever the hell, it was changing so fast. My brain couldn't adjust quick enough.

• 5:56Speaker 05

  It makes sense. Like if I gotta look at my watch, there's a certain like

• 5:59Steven Rinella?

  You know where you want that.

• 6:00Speaker 05

  Spot that I go, but then, you know, if there's, you know, there's different stuff on this, on the dial that you can look at and somewhere I'm like, what is it? Like if I wanted, like I gotta kind of

• 6:12Speaker 05

  get it at a certain like spot if I want to check out the little tiny words on there or whatever, you know?

• 6:17Steven Rinella?

  Nothing you can do about it. Um,

• 6:22Steven Rinella?

  man, this is going to be like, Luke, you gotta bear with us here. This is going to be probably.

• 6:29Steven Rinella?

  This is gonna be a test case in uh how to lose listeners.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 6:36Steven Rinella?

  Okay. You know, they tell you, don't talk about uh religion.

• 6:40Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 6:40Steven Rinella?

  Politics.

• 6:41Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 6:42Speaker 06

  You fixing to do both?

• 6:44Steven Rinella?

  Well, no.

• 6:44Speaker 05

  You're going, I was like, you're going all those places.

• 6:46Steven Rinella?

  No, religion, politics, and then the finer details of wild turkey management.

• 6:52Speaker 06

  I don't agree with that.

• 6:53Speaker 05

  I don't agree with that. I think there's, I think there's, I think there's a very uh.

• 6:57Steven Rinella?

  You think this?

• 6:57Speaker 05

  Interested population.

• 6:59Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 7:00Speaker 05

  I think it's, I think it's niche. I think it's a subculture, but I do think they're, the people that are interested are gonna be super interested.

• 7:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I do. I do think that. Uh, oh, you know what I was gonna do? What I wanna do too, Luke, later, when we turn the show over to our uh intense focus on you, Luke, is I wanted to bring up with you. The other day I was telling you, yesterday I was telling you, uh, I have to do, I'm not gonna do it, cause it's secret. But I was telling you, at some point, I need to do the worst thing that could happen to a musician.

• 7:34Steven Rinella?

  Is to come to you and say, hey, I got a song idea.

• 7:37Speaker 05

  Yes, we did discuss this.

• 7:38Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, and I didn't do it.

• 7:39Speaker 05

  You did.

• 7:40Steven Rinella?

  And I can't do it now, because then the whole world's gonna write this song. And it's not my song idea.

• 7:44Speaker 05

  That's true, but now the, now people are gonna wonder, though.

• 7:48Steven Rinella?

  Well, let me throw you a different tidbit right here.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 7:50Steven Rinella?

  You ready for this?

• 7:51Speaker 05

  I'm ready.

• 7:52Steven Rinella?

  My buddy Pat Durkin was telling me how uh, my buddy Pat Durkin was telling me how, at his age,

• 8:02Steven Rinella?

  when he takes, like, he starts to think about, if he's taking on a big writing project. He's like, you know, enters the back of your head, is like, am I really gonna be doing this?

• 8:16Speaker 05

  What do you mean?

• 8:17Steven Rinella?

  What do you mean?

• 8:17Speaker 05

  Career wise.

• 8:20Steven Rinella?

  You know, I mean, like at a certain point, like if someone says like, hey, do you want to take on a like a large project? You'd be like, shit, I don't know. I'm pretty old. I don't want to take that on.

• 8:30Speaker 05

  How it's pretty old though, dude. What are we talking here?

• 8:34Speaker 06

  I don't think he's

• 8:34Speaker 05

  Late 60s.

• 8:35Speaker 06

  I don't think he's pretty old.

• 8:37Steven Rinella?

  He just made a comment.

• 8:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 8:38Steven Rinella?

  And this is all build up to the song idea.

• 8:40Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 8:40Steven Rinella?

  This is a different song.

• 8:41Speaker 05

  Okay, okay, different song I do.

• 8:43Steven Rinella?

  And he said, he was telling his friend, well, I can't tell you the ones. It's Mo's.

• 8:46Speaker 05

  Got it, got it.

• 8:47Steven Rinella?

  I ran it by Chili. Chili?

• 8:50Speaker 03

  I mean, my first, when he said, um, Mo has an idea for Luke about a song.

• 8:55Steven Rinella?

  No, no, no. I just like an idea.

• 8:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. When you first said that, like, that's how you started. I was like, I'm not a, you know, country music star, but I don't, I wasn't skeptical about, you know.

• 9:07Steven Rinella?

  Cause you, you, you being

• 9:08Speaker 05

  Was there was no words or music.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 05

  But that can present a

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:13Speaker 05

  Massive challenge in the world of music for sure.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  And then he told, told me the idea and I was like, I've heard a lot worse ideas.

• 9:22Steven Rinella?

  It's a great idea.

• 9:23Speaker 03

  And but I'll, I'll obviously let him.

• 9:26Speaker 06

  Usually if someone says

• 9:27Steven Rinella?

  In private.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  In private.

• 9:28Speaker 06

  Usually if you tell, you run an idea past someone and they say, I've heard worse.

• 9:32Steven Rinella?

  It's good.

• 9:33Speaker 06

  That means it ain't good.

• 9:34Steven Rinella?

  No, you think that's like way good.

• 9:37Speaker 05

  I've heard worse. I think it's how you say it. I was telling my kid recently.

• 9:42Steven Rinella?

  I'm gonna get to this, but I was telling him recently, we're talking about, you know, he's getting of the age, you know, where there's like boyfriends and girlfriends. I'm like, dude, when I was your, when I was a kid in high school, the worst thing they could say, like the worst thing girls could say, he's nice.

• 10:01Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:03Steven Rinella?

  Now, if they said this, if they said, he's funny.

• 10:08Steven Rinella?

  That was a good sign.

• 10:11Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 10:12Steven Rinella?

  He's nice.

• 10:14Speaker 05

  Like, he gotta be nice. Brutal.

• 10:15Steven Rinella?

  Like, don't take me wrong.

• 10:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:17Steven Rinella?

  But like, at a time, it was like, if someone says like, oh, I think you're nice, you're like, ew.

• 10:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 06

  Friend zone.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel the same way when someone calls me cute at thirty, when a girl calls me cute.

• 10:27Steven Rinella?

  No, that's a good sign.

• 10:28Speaker 03

  Eh, I'm not, I don't know, I just feel the same way.

• 10:31Speaker 05

  I could see that, I could see how that could be a mixed bag.

• 10:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:34Speaker 05

  I could see how it, you like, could go either way.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:37Steven Rinella?

  So he- here's this hit, this hit.

• 10:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, I love it.

• 10:41Steven Rinella?

  Okay. And listen, man, it's not like, I haven't thought it through as much. In fact, I had it in my notes. Something I thought was funny. And I don't even think about it being a great song.

• 10:53Speaker 05

  Right.

• 10:54Steven Rinella?

  Till now.

• 10:54Speaker 05

  Great song, hit song, great song.

• 10:57Steven Rinella?

  Pat Dergan's talking about bringing up to a friend, I don't know if I even want to take a big project out at my age, you know? And his friend said, some weeks, I wonder if I should be starting a new trash bag.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  Starting a new trash bag?

• 11:11Steven Rinella?

  Meaning, is he even gonna be alive long enough to fill a trash bag?

• 11:15Speaker 05

  Oh. God, that's, that's real sad. That's not a lot of time. That's like half a day.

• 11:23Steven Rinella?

  They scrapped that song.

• 11:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 11:24Steven Rinella?

  I don't want you to, I don't want that song, I did a color of the other song. I wish I had said it. I blew my chance. Who in a pitch meeting, who in a pitch meeting comes in and starts with the loser?

• 11:37Speaker 05

  You came, you kinda came to, it's like, real excited, like, you got into that. Like, I knew that, when the idea was coming, because your voice got like, real pumped about it. You were like, yeah, so, he was talking about this, you know, I don't want to do this, and then, at my age, I didn't want to start a trash bag yet. And it's like, oh my God, I broke pitch meeting rule number one, man. Like, you always come in with the hot one.

• 12:04Steven Rinella?

  You come in with the good idea.

• 12:05Speaker 05

  And then if you're like, if you find the audience is losing, you're losing the audience, then you start throwing wild shit out there, you know?

• 12:11Steven Rinella?

  But you come in with the refined one.

• 12:12Speaker 04

  Luke is saying you start a song with a title, so. And then, you know,

• 12:17Speaker 05

  I do.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  That's trash bag.

• 12:20Steven Rinella?

  No, that's the other song.

• 12:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, trash bags.

• 12:23Steven Rinella?

  All the other song has a title.

• 12:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's all that one does. That one doesn't even have a title, dude. The other one's at least farther down the line than that, you know?

• 12:32Steven Rinella?

  Okay, now, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about turkey regulations. And Luke, you've had some observations about turkey regulations. But we're gonna, we're gonna get serious here for a minute because the reason these turkey regulation things are of interest is because I think that we're seeing,

• 12:48Steven Rinella?

  anyone in the country's interest in turkey hunting, I think this is all relevant to your life because I think we're, there's a trend emerging, and we've, we've touched on this before on the show. There's a trend emerging that

• 13:02Steven Rinella?

  that, that turkey numbers in America, like, when you get into the future, we're gonna look at turkey numbers in America, just in a general America sense, as being like this precipitous, no, precipitous always means down, or can it be a precipitous incline?

• 13:19Speaker 05

  Oh, dude, you're, that's, that's author stuff.

• 13:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, you're asking the wrong folks.

• 13:23Speaker 05

  Wrong crowd, dude.

• 13:24Speaker 06

  Wrong crowd.

• 13:25Steven Rinella?

  Hey, if you look at like turkey trends, you're gonna see the 90s come in.

• 13:32Steven Rinella?

  We're gonna get to the 1990s.

• 13:33Speaker 05

  1990s, right.

• 13:34Steven Rinella?

  And you're gonna see just like turkey numbers, just, we're talking in 100 years when they make a chart showing turkey numbers in this country. They're gonna be like, in the 90s, with all the reintroductions and introductions,

• 13:49Steven Rinella?

  early 2000s, right? It's just gonna be like boom, boom, that's the noise of climbing.

• 13:54Speaker 05

  Boom, boom, boom.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  It's a roller coaster going up.

• 13:59Steven Rinella?

  And it's gonna hit like the, the heyday of turkey hunting. And I have, I don't know, Clay Newka, maybe he'd be able to tell you where he, like in Arkansas where he's at. I think Dr. Mike Chamberlain would be able to tell you the official like peak moment. And then it's down.

• 14:17Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 14:17Steven Rinella?

  And it'll go down, and I don't know that anyone knows where it's gonna

• 14:21Speaker 05

  end.

• 14:22Steven Rinella?

  level.

• 14:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, we were talking about that yesterday. It's like you like, we feel like it was like, man, a couple, I don't know, is it set like six or seven years ago, it was like smashing, dude. I mean, Tennessee, you could, you could kill four birds.

• 14:40Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 14:41Speaker 06

  Now, are you talking, this is nationwide?

• 14:44Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, because there's always outlier things, but I'm just saying, like, if you like, if you go to some of those areas that became if you go to some of those states that became just like early famous turkey states, you know, like places that always had pretty good turkey hunting, but just blew up like Arkansas, Missouri, Kansas, Iowa, right? Um, where turkey numbers just went crazy.

• 15:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:09Steven Rinella?

  And then this whole, it's kind of appearing to be like death, a death by a thousand cuts kind of thing. And it's going to like lower turkey numbers, but there's actually terms for this and there's terms for this and

• 15:23Steven Rinella?

  biology, there's terms for this phenomenon, there's one thing called, one guy calls it founder effect, there's other names, but when you bring in a new population of animals and introduce them, they explode.

• 15:36Steven Rinella?

  They explode because they're, they're coming in and like they're occupying a niche that wasn't occupied on the landscape. That's really good for them. Um, predators aren't tuned into them yet.

• 15:49Steven Rinella?

  You might be moving in a group of animals that is disease free. And they might contract local diseases or become impacted by diseases over time.

• 15:59Speaker 05

  Right.

• 16:00Steven Rinella?

  So when you bring something in, it's just like the general truth of it is, is they take, they take dramatically and shoot up. And then predators over time are like, oh, I figured out how to kill these things. What you do, right? In, in, in April, I know to go look in that brushy shit and it's full of eggs, right? And it takes them a while to figure out how to do that. And then all this stuff happens and you lose. So what, what you're seeing right now is and again, this is just generally what you're seeing right now across the country is like generally game management agencies, generally speaking, tightening way up, way up.

• 16:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:41Steven Rinella?

  On turkey harvest. So we, we talked about, uh, I gotta put on my spectacles.

• 16:47Speaker 04

  Doesn't seem like it down here, though.

• 16:50Steven Rinella?

  I got a, I got a thing on my phone of song ideas. I gotta pull it up. Um.

• 16:55Speaker 05

  Gotta find that right spot.

• 16:57Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 16:59Steven Rinella?

  Okay, let me, let me find this thing here. We talked about South Carolina. Uh, on a recent podcast episode during our Turkey Week and, uh.

• 17:12Steven Rinella?

  Let me see here. And got a guy real mad at us. Here it is.

• 17:20Steven Rinella?

  We were talking about South Carolina, how they have done, and this is another thing that happens in South Carolina. They, you used to be able to shoot jakes. Okay.

• 17:30Speaker 05

  Yep. Now you can't.

• 17:31Steven Rinella?

  And all, and South Carolina says, no more jakes. And, uh, on the show, we kind of laughed about, uh.

• 17:43Steven Rinella?

  I observed on the show, I was like, if you really want to save like breeding age birds, you'd make it illegal to shoot long beards. But of course you can't do that because that, and that's not what anybody, that'd piss everybody off. No one wants that. So you're like, being like, yeah, no one's, you know, that excited about shooting jakes. Maybe we'll make it, you can't shoot jakes and it'll help. And we handle, well, well, a guy wrote in who was livid about, um. Our handling of this. Okay. Says the media podcast came out, they brought up our new turkey laws and completely fucked up the explanation.

• 18:20Steven Rinella?

  They harp on the Jake ban and say, our purpose of the Jake ban is to increase breeding and beat on us. That makes no sense. But here's, here's some other things that's happened in South Carolina.

• 18:33Steven Rinella?

  They already did change the season dates. They made the season start later and they made it shorter. They lowered the bag limit. Okay.

• 18:43Steven Rinella?

  In addition to this.

• 18:44Speaker 05

  Tennessee's done this as well.

• 18:46Steven Rinella?

  So. South Carolina first went in, so the statewide season now starts April 3rd. Previously, half the state started March 22nd and half started April 1.

• 19:01Steven Rinella?

  So in part of the state and half the state, they move the season to 12 days later because the thinking is states are killing turkeys too early and it's impacting breeding. And there's like the kind of the, we mentioned, there's this kind of emerging idea in turkey management. It'd be like, hunt them as long as you want on the other end of the season, or hunt them longer on the other end of the season and stop hitting them.

• 19:28Speaker 05

  Right at the beginning.

• 19:29Steven Rinella?

  Early. Right at the beginning. Right. So he said they not only did that, um, there was a recommendation that the entire state should be April 10th, but the legislature didn't go for it. Before April 10th, where it is open early, you're only allowed one bird. They used to run two staggered 40-day seasons. So they used to have 50 total days of turkey hunting season because they managed the state in two chunks. So they used to have a 50 total days of season. They dropped it to 31 days of season, lowered the ma- lowered the overall bag limit from three turkeys to

• 20:11Steven Rinella?

  two turkeys. So, point being, I'm still dying. You know, I was dying when we talked about this originally.

• 20:20Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:21Steven Rinella?

  From, from a cough. Uh, point being, they've done a ton in South Carolina to like, suppress turkey harvest.

• 20:32Speaker 05

  Yeah. And that's, I think that's happening in a lot of places, you know?

• 20:37Steven Rinella?

  Another one we talked about that we didn't get right. This is like the correction section. Um, we were talking about in Florida, you know, every state, every, no matter where you're from in every state, you always hate non, uh, out of staters.

• 20:55Speaker 05

  Generally true.

• 20:56Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, no, no one wants, you know, no one driving around hunting wants to see an out of state plate. You hate them.

• 21:01Speaker 05

  True.

• 21:02Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, you just hate them.

• 21:03Speaker 05

  Yep. Maybe that's more of a Montana thing. Sounds more Montana.

• 21:07Steven Rinella?

  Well, it's Florida, big time. No, I'll explain.

• 21:10Speaker 05

  Really?

• 21:11Steven Rinella?

  Florida. They hate them. So, uh, Richard Martinez, who I've hunted with in Florida, wrote into correction. They were, Florida was considering, a, um, Florida was considering this new thing where on certain wildlife management areas, so certain public land areas, residents get first cracks.

• 21:36Steven Rinella?

  So you wind up having two seasons.

• 21:40Steven Rinella?

  Resident turkey season, non-resident turkey season.

• 21:45Steven Rinella?

  Which again,

• 21:48Steven Rinella?

  that's their call, man. Like, I don't even think a non-resident even has a place to complain about it because wildlife's managed at the state level.

• 21:54Speaker 05

  Right.

• 21:55Steven Rinella?

  So, he says, here's what he says. He says, I want to clarify that the rule banning non-residents

• 22:03Steven Rinella?

  actually

• 22:06Steven Rinella?

  landed at nine days.

• 22:10Steven Rinella?

  Cause public feedback said boning non-residents by three days isn't boning them enough.

• 22:17Steven Rinella?

  They want to bone them.

• 22:18Speaker 05

  Mored.

• 22:18Steven Rinella?

  Three times worse.

• 22:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:23Steven Rinella?

  However, it only applies to five management areas.

• 22:29Steven Rinella?

  Those management areas being over the counter management areas.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  That makes sense.

• 22:37Steven Rinella?

  Yep. If it's a draw management area, this is what I'm saying where you really start losing listeners.

• 22:42Speaker 05

  This is public?

• 22:44Steven Rinella?

  Public management areas. You can see some dude driving along with his, with his wife, right? And he's like, hey, I want to check out your podcast, you know?

• 22:53Speaker 05

  And it's getting.

• 22:54Steven Rinella?

  And then, and then now he's like hoping something good happens. His wife's gonna like settle in, you know?

• 22:59Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:00Steven Rinella?

  And then she's sitting there, you know what I mean? And now we're like, well, it was gonna be nine days, you know, it was three days and it's actually nine days.

• 23:08Speaker 05

  And she's like, oh man, he's like, well now, hold on, that's only in the over the counter WMAs, right?

• 23:17Steven Rinella?

  And now he's like, dude, I might as well just change it down to something.

• 23:20Speaker 05

  The limited draw WMAs are a totally different story. We're gonna get into that in the next half hour.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, no, no, we'll keep listening.

• 23:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Um, he's like, just, just hang in a minute, you know, because they're gonna start talking. Luke's gonna be like, I'd like to offer a few finer points.

• 23:39Steven Rinella?

  So he goes on, he's like, it's not over yet. This, this new staggered turkey hunting season thing, and again, I'm only bringing this up because this is stuff. This is like wildlife management stuff that will, wherever you live, will wind up impacting you because states learn from each other. Right? Like states try stuff and it's effective and other states pick it up. Like they don't live in little vacuums. And so in figuring out how do you allocate resources and how do you do things? These are all like little playbooks and this idea of having, everyone's familiar with looking at a regs and being like, oh, I'm a non-resident. I gotta buy extra shit that's extra expensive.

• 24:21Steven Rinella?

  Or I'm a non-resident, I can, uh, you know, have a lower bag limit than a resident. Like I'm only allowed one turkey, but a resident can kill five. What's up with that? But to enter it, this new thing, if it's emerging is, oh, I'm a resident, I start hunting on this day.

• 24:40Steven Rinella?

  My deer opening date.

• 24:42Speaker 05

  Right.

• 24:43Steven Rinella?

  Is this day.

• 24:45Steven Rinella?

  And I got 10 days and then the non-residents show up. It's like, this will become, you know, if it's effective, it'll become.

• 24:53Speaker 06

  Where's the, in, in Montana, I'd rather have it go the other way.

• 24:56Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that they gotta quit.

• 24:58Speaker 06

  That like, non-residents get like the first two weeks of the season.

• 25:02Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 25:03Speaker 05

  I, here, here. For just for turkeys or for?

• 25:05Speaker 06

  For deer.

• 25:06Speaker 05

  Everything.

• 25:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:06Steven Rinella?

  No, for turkeys, I'd want the top end.

• 25:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, I would want top end of turkey, but I'm, I'm speaking mostly.

• 25:12Speaker 05

  Now we're picking it, now we're picking and choosing.

• 25:14Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Well, here's, here, I'll tell you a little something. This, this will give you a little insight into my inner psychology is, uh, whenever another state bones non-residents, I get a little agitated.

• 25:28Speaker 05

  But when your state does.

• 25:29Steven Rinella?

  When my state bones non-residents, I get excited.

• 25:32Speaker 05

  Do you think, do you, that's all speculative stuff, but like, do you think there's ever a point where states are just like? Nah, man. No, no, no. Turkey wise, like, or any, any species wise.

• 25:46Steven Rinella?

  That they'll do what?

• 25:47Speaker 05

  To where they could, they could potentially just go, we don't, we don't want any non-resident hunters at all.

• 25:53Steven Rinella?

  The what, what?

• 25:54Speaker 05

  Unless you're, unless you maybe were, own your own land or something.

• 25:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 05

  You know, for a non-resident.

• 25:59Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. If you went to the, if you went to the hunters, that'd be widespread. But from the agency's perspective, they can't because of the money.

• 26:08Speaker 05

  Yeah. Right.

• 26:09Steven Rinella?

  All their, because they, they, most, most states, like, this is something that, that

• 26:15Steven Rinella?

  isn't as widely, it's definitely not widely known in the public, right? At all. Like hunters know this, but in the public, it's not widely known, is state game agencies in most states,

• 26:28Steven Rinella?

  they handle everything like, like law enforcement, disease prevention, habitat improvement, all this stuff. Like their money comes from licenses and stamps. So when they can, when they can go and, and like, you get your turkey license for 30 bucks or something, but then you get all these dudes that are paying hundreds to hunt turkeys? And then hunters are like, no more non-residents. The, the agency is like, easy dude.

• 26:56Speaker 05

  You're like, well, we kind of want those guys.

• 26:57Steven Rinella?

  Like, we lose, like, we'll lose the, you know, we have no funding if we can't

• 27:03Steven Rinella?

  sell non-resident tags.

• 27:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:06Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like, if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and years of use.

• 27:50Steven Rinella?

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• 28:36Steven Rinella?

  Easy. The One Pay Builder Card. It's simple and smart. One Pay is the banking app trusted by millions of Americans, and the One Pay Builder Card is an easy way to build credit. Just use it to make everyday purchases, build your credit history, and then you can work up to the big milestones, buying a new car, or a new house, or hell, maybe something I'm always thinking about, which is another boat. Those moments start with small, consistent steps with the One Pay Builder Card. Download the One Pay app or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.

• 29:14Speaker 07

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• 29:30Steven Rinella?

  So what he's saying here that goes on is there's this place called Big Cypress National National Preserve. I've been down there, not hunting. I was down there where the turkey hunter, but I didn't hunt turkeys there.

• 29:41Steven Rinella?

  Excuse me, fellas.

• 29:44Steven Rinella?

  Uh, opening weekend. Twice as many non-residents as residents.

• 29:52Steven Rinella?

  Partly because it's, because you hunt Osceola so damn early. I think dudes are like, I can go hunt Florida.

• 29:58Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 29:58Steven Rinella?

  Seth did this, son of a bitch.

• 30:00Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 30:01Steven Rinella?

  He's like, I can go hunt.

• 30:01Speaker 05

  Part of the problem, dude.

• 30:02Steven Rinella?

  Part of the problem. I can hunt Florida and still get home for my own opening day.

• 30:08Speaker 06

  Yeah. Why wouldn't you?

• 30:10Speaker 05

  Why wouldn't you go take someone else's resources, dude?

• 30:13Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:14Speaker 06

  Florida, Texas, Montana's not even open yet.

• 30:17Steven Rinella?

  Yep, so. In that one, in that unit where they got twice as many non-residents. This is a little hot tip alert. If you live in Florida.

• 30:30Speaker 05

  Don't let Seth come hunt.

• 30:32Steven Rinella?

  No, that was the.

• 30:34Speaker 06

  That's not a hot tip.

• 30:36Steven Rinella?

  The, if you live in South Florida, next spring. When you go down to Big Cypress on opening day, you can expect to see a two-thirds reduction in pressure.

• 30:51Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 30:53Steven Rinella?

  Two-thirds reduction in pressure.

• 30:55Speaker 06

  I'd be excited if I was a resident.

• 30:59Steven Rinella?

  Now, here's another one. I think this is it for turkey rules. Is there one more turkey rule? Oh, no, there's one more tur- there's tur- this is turkey dark, we're covering turkey dark spots? Like bad turkey stuff? Or, you know, and then we're gonna get positive and light. It's like a. It's like a, um. Gospel sermon.

• 31:21Steven Rinella?

  Where you.

• 31:21Speaker 05

  You break them down to build them up.

• 31:23Steven Rinella?

  You go down, you know, you get in the dark and then you.

• 31:26Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 31:26Steven Rinella?

  Come out of the darkness. Um.

• 31:31Steven Rinella?

  Where was I? Oh, this, we're coming out of the darkness now, sorry. Do you guys remember when Florida had their bear hunt and just got beat up? By?

• 31:43Speaker 04

  People not wanting to bear season?

• 31:46Steven Rinella?

  Well, what happened in Florida is this is it's a great story. Uh, we talked about in the past, but like Florida had no bear hunting for a long time. Their numbers got real low and also just got like many places. Going to this kind of general trend right now. And I was talking about turkeys down, black bears up.

• 32:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:05Steven Rinella?

  Up, up, up, up, up.

• 32:07Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 32:07Speaker 06

  Up everywhere.

• 32:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 06

  Most part.

• 32:09Steven Rinella?

  So Florida does this quota hunt.

• 32:16Steven Rinella?

  Seth, do you mind pulling up real quick? What year Florida did their bear hunt? It was some years ago now.

• 32:22Steven Rinella?

  Very contentious. All the animal rights people just, just bent out of shape about Florida doing this bear hunt. They decided to do a quota hunt, not a limited draw hunt.

• 32:33Steven Rinella?

  Not a, not a limited tag draw.

• 32:35Speaker 05

  Right. It's just like.

• 32:36Steven Rinella?

  A cap.

• 32:37Speaker 05

  Everybody go out and once this many have been tagged, it's over.

• 32:40Steven Rinella?

  Right. And they, and cause they hadn't had a bear season in so long, they had no idea about what efficacy rates would be like. And they put in that as they approached the cap, there's a 24 hour lag, meaning it's like, let's say you're like drawing down on a bear. At, at, you know, let, let's say the cap gets hit at 7:50 AM on the second day. And at 7:52, a bear walks out and you shoot the bear. Is it like, did you just break the law?

• 33:10Speaker 05

  Right. Cause you, there's no way you could have known.

• 33:12Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 33:12Speaker 05

  Right.

• 33:14Speaker 06

  So it was open from 1930 to 1994. It closed until 2015 for one season and then it closed again.

• 33:21Steven Rinella?

  And can you pull up what the quota was?

• 33:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:24Steven Rinella?

  The story is.

• 33:28Steven Rinella?

  They way overshot the quota.

• 33:32Speaker 05

  Well, like how much?

• 33:33Steven Rinella?

  Like, he'll, he'll pull it up. The quota got hit and then people had like 24 or 48 hours, whatever.

• 33:38Speaker 05

  And just.

• 33:39Steven Rinella?

  And by the time it was done.

• 33:40Speaker 05

  Stuff, right.

• 33:41Steven Rinella?

  So half, like, I shouldn't say half. People that know a lot about wildlife management. Looked at this and they're like, man, a lot more bears than we thought. Must be a lot of bears. Everybody else looked at it like, they killed all the bears.

• 33:57Speaker 05

  Right.

• 33:57Steven Rinella?

  And it was just done. Public sentiment was like that they blew it. They ruined it. They had no idea what they're doing. They killed way more bears than the quota.

• 34:06Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 34:07Steven Rinella?

  And they haven't hunted bears since 2015. What are you finding?

• 34:12Speaker 06

  Um.

• 34:13Speaker 04

  I'm pretty sure that happened with wolves in Wisconsin.

• 34:16Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 05

  So it's. We were talking about that last night.

• 34:21Speaker 06

  It's broken into four different management units.

• 34:25Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 34:26Speaker 06

  East Panhandle, North, Central and South. And then there's Harvest Objectives. Which is East Panhandle 40, North 100, Central 100, South 80.

• 34:39Steven Rinella?

  And what'd they wind up with?

• 34:40Speaker 06

  Um.

• 34:41Steven Rinella?

  Six something or?

• 34:42Speaker 06

  So East Panhandle was 40, actual was 114.

• 34:45Steven Rinella?

  Phew.

• 34:47Speaker 06

  But North, North was 100, actual 25.

• 34:52Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 34:53Speaker 06

  Central 100, actual 143.

• 34:56Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 34:57Speaker 06

  And then South.

• 35:00Speaker 06

  80, actual 22.

• 35:02Speaker 05

  Oh, so they didn't really go over then.

• 35:04Steven Rinella?

  Wasn't even that bad. Well, in some spot they went over and pissed, pissed everybody off. Anyhow.

• 35:11Steven Rinella?

  Um, you know, I was sitting there one time with a guy, I don't want to name his name.

• 35:15Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 35:15Steven Rinella?

  But I'm sitting there in Florida. And I wind up in a house of a commissioner.

• 35:21Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 35:22Steven Rinella?

  Who grew up all ki- did all kinds of hunting. And the commissioner was telling me he voted against that bear hunt.

• 35:29Speaker 05

  I'm like, why?

• 35:32Speaker 05

  Just worried about public opinion.

• 35:35Steven Rinella?

  Right.

• 35:36Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 35:36Steven Rinella?

  That was, he like laid it out, sitting, talking to me face to face that he voted against it because he's worried about public backlash. Not, nothing to do with bears. Worry about public opinion on him.

• 35:49Speaker 05

  Right.

• 35:49Steven Rinella?

  Now. Florida's getting ready to take another, uh, shot.

• 35:55Steven Rinella?

  Florida's getting ready for another shot at a bear hunt. This is from Richard Martinez.

• 36:01Steven Rinella?

  You know what he does for a living? Take a guess.

• 36:05Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 36:06Steven Rinella?

  Take it, throw something out there.

• 36:08Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm guessing, I'm guessing that it's, I'm not going to guess it, probably.

• 36:13Steven Rinella?

  Just.

• 36:14Speaker 05

  Musician.

• 36:15Steven Rinella?

  No, no, he's an art mover.

• 36:17Speaker 05

  So close, closer than I thought, really.

• 36:22Steven Rinella?

  Like if you buy a really expensive piece of art? And you need it shipped from the, from the, where you bought it from to you. Richard Martinez.

• 36:30Speaker 05

  So he's like a, like he's, runs a, a niche shipping business.

• 36:36Steven Rinella?

  Another way to put it, yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 05

  Yeah. I like that. That's cool.

• 36:39Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 05

  It's an interesting business, you know?

• 36:42Steven Rinella?

  It is. You get to see art, get to handle it.

• 36:44Speaker 05

  I think about that a lot. I'm like, there's so many niche jobs that exist that you don't even, we wouldn't even think of. Like, as a drive into places sometimes, I'm going like, look at all the people that live here. Like what, all these people are doing some kind of job. Like there's, it's not like. You think of like, think of all the jobs, you know, in your head.

• 37:07Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 05

  Off the top of your head.

• 37:08Steven Rinella?

  My kids.

• 37:09Speaker 05

  There's so many more than those. You're like, uh, astronaut, detective, uh, firefighter, police officer. Restaurant person. And then that's like, done.

• 37:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's it.

• 37:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's it, dude. I don't think about like the guy that's like manufacturing, like the insulated foam inside of a airplane liner. Or but like, that's the thing that's happening, dude.

• 37:37Steven Rinella?

  Exactly, yeah. And then he's got the kind of people that have jobs that they didn't know that was a job until they applied for it.

• 37:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:45Steven Rinella?

  They're like, oh shit, that's a thing? I'll do that.

• 37:47Speaker 05

  They're like, yeah, I could probably pull that off, you know?

• 37:49Steven Rinella?

  That's what I did, I mean it.

• 37:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's right, chilling.

• 37:53Steven Rinella?

  Uh, at the December commission meeting, the commission requested, I'm back to Florida.

• 37:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 38:00Steven Rinella?

  This is Richard Martinez telling me about what's going on in Florida. He's a very, Richard Martinez is the, is the kind of, uh, the kind of guy. That if every hunter or angler in every state was like Richard Martinez, we wouldn't have any problems.

• 38:19Steven Rinella?

  Extremely dedicated, very successful, but also very involved in all this kind of stuff.

• 38:28Speaker 05

  Right.

• 38:28Steven Rinella?

  Very involved in policy and like making his statements and having his voice be heard and talking to other hunters and like, what are people's concerns? How do we address the concerns? What's, how do we, you know, prove the resource? He's got a job. He's got a family, wife, whatever. But at the same time, he like, he is demonstrates like an exceptional level of curiosity and involvement with his area. And he's not one of those, they, you know,

• 39:01Steven Rinella?

  blaming everybody for everything all the time.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  They took our jobs.

• 39:05Steven Rinella?

  Sitting all, yeah, he's not sitting all bitter, you know, like he's not sitting all bitter, right?

• 39:09Speaker 05

  They took our toms, dude, you know?

• 39:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 39:11Steven Rinella?

  So at the December Florida game commission meeting, the commission requested staff to put together a proposal for a hunt next season.

• 39:22Steven Rinella?

  Staff will present their proposal at the May 21st meeting in Ocala. Is that a place?

• 39:28Speaker 05

  Ocala, yeah.

• 39:32Steven Rinella?

  We're encouraging everyone in support of the hunt to attend.

• 39:38Speaker 05

  It's a good way to like make the protesters kind of like, you kind of swell the numbers, you know, like the people that come to protest, you're like, well, these guys showed up, they must love, they must want the bear hunt to go on. You know, everyone that's in support of the thing is going to attend.

• 39:54Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like.

• 39:54Speaker 05

  And you're like, look how many people showed up for this, for this bear hunt, dude.

• 39:58Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, if you're there.

• 39:58Speaker 05

  And then no signs, by the way.

• 39:59Steven Rinella?

  If you're there for the bear hunt, stand right next to and act like you're with someone that's there against it and yell real loud.

• 40:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:06Steven Rinella?

  And be like, those two fellows right there are excited.

• 40:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, man, look at those guys. Those guys are pumped about it.

• 40:11Steven Rinella?

  That whole little group.

• 40:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, everyone there supports bears in one way or another. If you're in support of bears, doesn't matter which side you stand on, show up to the event.

• 40:21Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 05

  And come support the bears.

• 40:28Steven Rinella?

  Last thing, I mentioned Dr. Michael Chamberlain.

• 40:33Steven Rinella?

  He, he's, he, uh, he's a wild turkey expert.

• 40:37Speaker 05

  The wild turkey dog. I met him.

• 40:38Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, wild turkey dog.

• 40:39Speaker 05

  He's been on the show, yeah.

• 40:40Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 05

  He's awesome.

• 40:41Steven Rinella?

  Fantastic guy.

• 40:42Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 40:43Steven Rinella?

  He, if you go way back in the archives, Chamberlain's been on the show once or twice. He did one of my favorite episodes ever, and he explained when they were doing a turkey predation study in this area.

• 40:56Steven Rinella?

  Where they went in and they wanted to see the whole inner workings of the complex of wildlife, right? So they would put collars on everything. They went into this area to do, like, they had all these collared turkeys or some kind of track. I think they glue a tracking mechanism on a turkey. They glue it to its back feathers. And they went in and they put collars on like raccoons, coyotes, whatever. They wanted everybody in town to be wearing a thing to see how they're all interacting. And then when a turkey gets killed, when you get a mortality signal from your turkey, you can go in and try to figure out what happened to the turkey. But also, you also know where your other collared stuff has been hanging around.

• 41:39Steven Rinella?

  One of the favorite wildlife studies that I like to cite, and I've brought it up a thousand times, I'll bring it up again now. They did one of these in Alaska one time where they tried to come into town and basically collar everybody. They had a collared moose fall into a crevasse in a glacier.

• 41:59Steven Rinella?

  One of the grizzlies that was wearing one of their collars climbed in there to eat on it, got stuck and died in there.

• 42:07Steven Rinella?

  With the moose.

• 42:10Steven Rinella?

  One of their wolverines that had a collar on it, got in there and ate on the carcass and lived.

• 42:16Steven Rinella?

  So they had this whole collar. Interaction that you can watch. Well, Chamberlain was talking about when they did, if you go back and listen to this episode, he tells it in great detail. They did one of these and they had a breeding pair of great horned owls.

• 42:33Steven Rinella?

  Come into their area. And he said, you couldn't keep a collar alive on anything when those owls showed up.

• 42:40Steven Rinella?

  They killed everybody.

• 42:42Speaker 05

  Really?

• 42:43Steven Rinella?

  You know? They killed everybody. And they'd smoke those turkeys, like when spring gobblers, when a gobbler gets up in the kind of half light gobbling. Up in his roost tree. He's got a bull's eye on him.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  I wonder.

• 42:59Steven Rinella?

  To a great horned owl.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  I wonder why though, because they're not like eating the turkeys, are they? Are the owls eating them?

• 43:04Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:05Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. No, he said they'll blast them so hard.

• 43:08Speaker 04

  The only reason I say that is because my parents had a bunch of chickens killed by the owls and they weren't even eating them.

• 43:16Steven Rinella?

  Oh, just kill them for the hell of it?

• 43:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. Anyways.

• 43:19Steven Rinella?

  Well.

• 43:20Speaker 05

  Just didn't like them.

• 43:20Steven Rinella?

  You know what, maybe they, if I remember, I could be screwing it up. I could be screwing it up, but what he talked about, the thing that tickled me about it is he said that great horned owl smokes that turkey so hard out of a tree. When you go out there. The turkey's laying way off from the tree, but it's feathers. Running from the tree. Because he, he's hits them.

• 43:42Speaker 05

  Bam. Full speed, like knocks them out.

• 43:44Steven Rinella?

  Blast them out of that tree. Uh, Mike Chamberlain. They are doing a, so they're getting ready to work on this project. Um.

• 43:54Steven Rinella?

  A DNA project with wild turkeys. All right. Uh, we had a researcher on the podcast one time who's working on a duck DNA program. And the duck DNA program to refresh people's memories. The duck DNA program is looking at. These kind of like fake ducks that game farms put out. In certain areas, I didn't, I didn't even really know this was a thing, but like in the east in certain. It's a thing like. Guys that want, that have like these little duck hunting spots and they take clients out, they're just raising mallards.

• 44:30Speaker 05

  I hadn't heard of this. I haven't heard of this.

• 44:32Steven Rinella?

  You know, like doing that with pheasants.

• 44:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's pretty commonplace.

• 44:36Steven Rinella?

  It's a thing with ducks. I had, I didn't even know this was a thing. Someone told me once, but I didn't really.

• 44:40Speaker 05

  And where is it? Where's it happening?

• 44:41Steven Rinella?

  Like, I know it happens a lot in Chesapeake Bay.

• 44:44Speaker 05

  Interesting.

• 44:46Steven Rinella?

  I think they're doing it a bunch in Ontario.

• 44:49Steven Rinella?

  You raise ducks in a pen.

• 44:51Speaker 05

  Right.

• 44:52Steven Rinella?

  And then you just kind of get them set up in your little area. And then guys come out and like pretend to hunt the ducks.

• 44:57Speaker 05

  We didn't pretend to hunt them.

• 44:58Steven Rinella?

  Well, they hunt them, but.

• 44:59Speaker 05

  But they're.

• 45:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's just like.

• 45:01Speaker 05

  They're just kind of like.

• 45:01Steven Rinella?

  They're just around.

• 45:02Speaker 05

  Pet ducks almost.

• 45:03Steven Rinella?

  What happened was, and, and one time I was down hunting, uh, seek a deer in Maryland. And we're going over a bridge.

• 45:11Speaker 05

  Bucket list hunt for me.

• 45:12Steven Rinella?

  Oh, really?

• 45:13Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:13Steven Rinella?

  Oh, well.

• 45:14Speaker 05

  I had plans to do it. I had, we actually had, we were go, I had a trip planned to go do it. And this was probably in 20, probably right at the end of 2020. Going into, I think it was going to be in January of 21.

• 45:27Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 45:27Speaker 05

  And ended up, I think I ended up like getting COVID or something.

• 45:31Steven Rinella?

  You should take this up with me in a little while. And, um, um, we have had, uh, just a fantastic time doing that. And I have someone I would like to introduce you to.

• 45:43Speaker 05

  We got, I, we got hooked up through, my bus driver grew up, grew up there.

• 45:48Steven Rinella?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 05

  In Maryland. So I think it was actually.

• 45:51Steven Rinella?

  You still got the same bus driver?

• 45:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, still got him. Yep, Larry.

• 45:54Speaker 06

  Larry, yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, Larry, guy, he's the man.

• 45:56Speaker 06

  He's a good dude.

• 45:56Speaker 05

  He's a great guy. And, uh, yeah, so he, he knows some, he knew some folks that, that had access from, from where he grew up and stuff. So, but I think, uh, I think it would have been when you guys went and did that hunt on Meat Eater was the first time that I had seen that.

• 46:14Steven Rinella?

  Oh, okay.

• 46:15Speaker 05

  And I was like, I got it. This before we had, before I had been on the show or we, we knew each other. And, uh, I reached out, I asked Larry, I was like, hey, man, you know anything about these? And he was like, oh, yeah, man. He said, those, we got those things all over the place.

• 46:30Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 05

  I was like, oh, how do I do that? He's like, just, I just call my buddies from high school and you can go up there and do it. I'm like, oh, cool.

• 46:40Steven Rinella?

  It is a, it is one of the easiest eaten deer in the world, man.

• 46:44Speaker 05

  Really?

• 46:45Steven Rinella?

  Oh, my God, they're good. You can just take the front legs. Like, you can't do this on any kind of thing. You take the front legs and put it in a smoker and pick it apart.

• 46:52Speaker 05

  Really?

• 46:52Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Anyways, we're down there hunting, we're down there hunting sea cadir. And it was the fall, right? And I remember going over a bridge on this little slough or whatever. And there's just mallards everywhere. Under the bridge and they weren't like laid out like how it just something was weird about it. And I even said to my buddy, I'm like, I can't believe all these mallards. And he goes, oh, no, those are

• 47:17Steven Rinella?

  release birds. Cause they were just like arranged in the like, under the bridge and like arranged in a way that just didn't look like what ducks would do. Yeah. So this duck DNA program is, is these ducks that these guys are putting out are breeding with wild mallards.

• 47:40Steven Rinella?

  And their offspring act weird. Their offspring don't know when to migrate, don't know where to migrate. They don't behave right. They get predated on at a way high rate. They're stupid. And so there's, they're doing this DNA project to find out, well, these guys that are dumping these birds out. That they're then breeding with wild mallards.

• 48:04Steven Rinella?

  And impacting all kinds of things about mallard biology.

• 48:08Speaker 04

  It doesn't seem like that would be legal.

• 48:11Steven Rinella?

  Uh, the, the whole thing surprised the hell out of me. It's a big thing for these guys. They, they big thing for them to be able to want to do it. So they did this, this DNA project. Well, they're doing, they're launching a new, new DNA project on turkeys where they're going to be nationwide hunters are going to have a chance to submit. We'll keep you informed on how this works. They're going to have a chance to submit, um, turkey DNA. And here's what, here's what is of interest to them. You know, when you're looking on social media, whatever during turkey season, everybody's got all their crazy turkeys. And you're seeing dudes that got like wild colored turkeys, or this has happened to me. You're like, there's a flock of turkeys going by. There's a white one in it.

• 48:58Steven Rinella?

  Um,

• 49:00Steven Rinella?

  or people that will say, uh, oh, I like hunting in Kansas because you can kill an eastern Anarrio.

• 49:08Steven Rinella?

  Together. And you're kind of, what the hell does that mean? Well, doing a big, uh, doing a big turkey DNA project. Where hunters all over can send in a sample. And then they can map out, because one of the things they're looking at is like, all these weird color phases, where are they coming from? And probably like hair, like not probably, is it like heritage breeds of turkeys? Is it farm turkeys? But the thing that you gotta, that makes this interesting to think about is, uh,

• 49:45Steven Rinella?

  like, if you're sitting there picturing, what is the original, like you take a cow, okay, like cattle? What did cattle come from? Cattle came from a thing called a wild animal called the oryx. Or sheep, domestic sheep came from, I think they came from mufflons.

• 50:04Steven Rinella?

  Horses came from Siberian steppe horse. So now when you see like a horse standing in someone's pasture, you're watching like the Indianapolis, uh, no, what do they call that thing? Big horse race?

• 50:16Speaker 06

  Kentucky Derby.

• 50:17Steven Rinella?

  Kentucky Derby.

• 50:18Speaker 06

  Indianapolis, you know.

• 50:21Steven Rinella?

  Kentucky Derby. Tona five. And you're like, what is this animal? Like I've looked at that horses my whole life. You ever ask yourself, well, what did it come from?

• 50:29Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 50:29Steven Rinella?

  All right, it's an animal, like the Eurasian steppe was like that animal. When you look at cows and all the breeds of cows, like what the hell did they come from? It came from a wild animal called oryx. All pigs, like all pigs, a big pink farm pig. They're all called Sus scrofa, S U S S C R O F A. Sus scrofa is like the, like the, the, the why, the ancestral wild pig. All pigs came from the ancestral wild pig. They're all still called Sus scrofa. It's all one species.

• 51:06Steven Rinella?

  What's cool about turkeys is turkeys is a rare thing, is a rare domestic. That if you went to Poland, just pulling it out of thin air. If you went to Poland and there's some white turkey standing there, that turkey is a descendant of our wild turkey. Like when the Spanish came and, you know, quote, discovered America. They got wild turkeys.

• 51:33Steven Rinella?

  Which had been domesticated by indigenous people, brought wild turkeys back to Europe, turned them into all these crazy turkey breeds and then brought them back here again. Right?

• 51:45Speaker 05

  Right.

• 51:47Steven Rinella?

  So like all turkeys on the whole planet come from

• 51:50Speaker 05

  here.

• 51:51Steven Rinella?

  Turkeys.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  Right.

• 51:55Steven Rinella?

  So they're trying to, you know, maybe puts together some map of how this all went down.

• 52:01Speaker 05

  That'd be cool. Yeah, that'd be neat.

• 52:03Steven Rinella?

  So we'll keep people, um, keep people focused.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  You might be on the Meat Eater Live soon, right? The Turkey Doc, I think.

• 52:11Steven Rinella?

  Oh, is he coming on? Maybe he's gonna talk about this.

• 52:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:14Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're gonna be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean and they'll get years and years of use out of a set.

• 52:59Steven Rinella?

  Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today. Go and ask any serious whitetail hunter what the best time of the year is to be out in a tree. And it's not a holiday, okay? The best time is not already on your calendar. It's the rut. It's the two or three week window that serious deer hunters plan everything else around. And OnX Hunt's rut calendar does this for you and helps take the guesswork out of your planning. It tracks the different phases of the rut as they move through your area. So you know when to book the time off, when to have the whole camp locked in and ready, or conversely, when it's still too early to burn out your best spots.

• 53:43Steven Rinella?

  You only get so many rut hunts in your life, so use the rut calendar within OnX Hunt to make the most of the whitetail rut this fall. You need credit to buy, well, pretty much any big thing. So how do you get started? Easy. The One Pay Builder Card. It's simple and smart. One Pay is the banking app trusted by millions of Americans and the One Pay Builder Card is an easy way to build credit. Just use it to make everyday purchases, build your credit history, and then you can work up to the big milestones, buying a new car or a new house, or hell, maybe something I'm always thinking about, which is another boat. Those moments start with small, consistent steps

• 54:25Steven Rinella?

  with the One Pay Builder Card. Download the One Pay app or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.

• 54:36Speaker 07

  One Pay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Builder Card results may vary and aren't guaranteed. Learn more about banking through One Pay at onepay.com/podcast.

• 54:52Steven Rinella?

  Luke, you know how in, um,

• 54:57Steven Rinella?

  like, uh, I don't know, certain disciplines, we're talking about having all kinds of jobs before, in certain disciplines, uh, work will interfere with one's ability to do their hunting and fishing?

• 55:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 55:09Steven Rinella?

  Like a friend of mine, uh, he's a MLB baseball player, right? And there's this thing that happens, like if they don't make the playoffs, it's game on.

• 55:20Speaker 05

  For deer hunt.

• 55:23Steven Rinella?

  And if you make the playoffs, you're screwed. But I say, well, do you ever hope you don't make the playoffs? So you can deer hunt? And he says, no, that's not a thing that I hope.

• 55:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:32Steven Rinella?

  Like you don't, you don't, it's like a, it's sort of a, it's not what you want to happen, but if, when your season ends, you do start deer hunting, but you never hope your season ends to go deer hunting, because that would mean you weren't.

• 55:45Speaker 05

  Right.

• 55:46Steven Rinella?

  Probably an MLB player.

• 55:48Speaker 05

  Right, right, right, right.

• 55:50Steven Rinella?

  You were something different. How, uh, in your, in your world, how do you, do you, do you try to line up to like, are you aware? Are you like, man, I can't tour during deer season? Or do you just do work first and then pick up where you pick up?

• 56:03Speaker 05

  This, this, this current calendar year is the first year I've done that. I was supposed to do a set of shows, I won't say which, a set of shows in November. That have now already been completed. Because I was like, I don't want to do that in November.

• 56:21Steven Rinella?

  Really?

• 56:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:23Steven Rinella?

  Did you tell people what you were thinking?

• 56:24Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I just literally told them, I was like, no, that's the middle of deer season. I'm not, I'm not going to do that. Because I haven't had a really great deer season in.

• 56:35Speaker 05

  I mean, six or seven years. Cause we're, cause we're always, cause we're always touring heavily. So it, it, it hasn't, it hasn't been as bad the last couple of years because, you know, we've been playing NFL stadiums. Obviously you can only really do that during the off season. And obviously NFL has really kicked up in the fall. So you can't play those venues in the fall. Because they're not, they don't do anything other than, than their stuff in the fall. Usually barring some weird scenario or something. But, so yeah, we hadn't had to worry about it. And this year it was like, hey, do you want to go do this international stuff? So it's not only.

• 57:15Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 57:16Speaker 05

  It would be different if it was like, hey, man, do you want to go do like, you know, three weekends in November? And do shows on Friday, Saturday, it'd be like, sure, that'd be fine. Cause you know, I could go, you know, I could hunt at home or I could go hunt somewhere for a few days and then go back on the road or something. But it was going to be, you know, it was going to be overseas. So just like miss. The whole, the whole deal.

• 57:39Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 05

  And I was like, at this point, I'm just not willing to do that. Now the shows have already been done. We did the shows. We just moved them to a different time.

• 57:46Steven Rinella?

  Got it.

• 57:46Speaker 05

  And so it was, it's not really like, I've never canceled any shows to hunt. No, and I never would.

• 57:52Steven Rinella?

  So do you look at it, if you, if you start to, if you, if you start to manipulate your. If you start to like.

• 58:01Steven Rinella?

  Manage your music career around your desire to be outside. Is that a sign that like, um?

• 58:10Steven Rinella?

  Is that a sign where you're like, man, I've like arrived?

• 58:15Steven Rinella?

  That I can actually start to manipulate my thing? Or is it that, man, I'm just getting of the age where I'm starting to recognize? What my limits are and what's important?

• 58:24Speaker 05

  Um, I think there's a, I think there's a bit of both in there. I mean, I think obviously it's a super luxury to be able to do stuff like that. And it's not, it's not something that I have ever, it's never even been in the conversation until a year or two ago. It's like, well, how do we, you know? Cause it felt like every year we'd get the season and it was like, oh boy, like we're not gonna go, you know, we're not gonna get to, get to do the thing. I think the difference was, you know, before it's like now I kind of have some of my own spots too, to go do some of these hunts that I, I want to do. You know, because I, that's something that's been in my, my grander plan for, you know, spending time with my kids too. Right. It's to hopefully, you know, hopefully they fall in love with it as well.

• 59:09Speaker 05

  So I wanted to have spots where I could take them and not have to be dependent upon somebody else to invite me somewhere. Or, you know, let me go somewhere, have access to their, you know, resources or whatever it may be. So I have my own places now, so I wanted to work that in, into my plan of like, okay, well eventually, you know, this is something that I want to prioritize because it's something that I enjoy. And it's an activity that I want to, you know, do with, with my kids. So,

• 59:39Speaker 05

  yeah, I, I mean, I think it's just, it's just part of, of, of growing. Right. And evolving as a person and the phase that I'm in at life now is completely different than it was. Five or six years ago, you know, five or six years ago, you know, my career was, you know, really, really on the insane roller coaster to the absolute top and just.

• 1:00:03Speaker 05

  Now it's more like now you're at kind of at cruising altitude, right? And all your and all your work is to like maintain where you are. But this is the same amount of work. But there's not really much like, there's not really anywhere else to go. There is no more like, it's like an airplane can only go so far.

• 1:00:23Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Speaker 05

  You know, it's like I kind of reach the max altitude and then it's like you can't really.

• 1:00:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Speaker 05

  You can't really climb anymore. You just have to maintain, right? So it takes the same amount of work that it did to get there as it does to just stay where you're at now.

• 1:00:37Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:38Speaker 05

  You know what I mean? And so you have to kind of evaluate, we we were talking about this last night, sitting in the chairs is like, you know, when you, when you have kids, right? Like you, you only have so much bandwidth to deal with things in your life, with everything that's on your plate that you want to achieve or things that you want to do. Hobbies, career. And then you, you know, you throw your kid, you, once you have kids, you throw that in the mix. You know, that, that to me occupies a ton of space in a good way. Right? It's like you want, I want to be there for my kids. I want to be involved parent. I want to be around and help take care of them and be their dad. And so that eliminates a lot of other stuff from that you don't have the bandwidth for now.

• 1:01:21Speaker 05

  Cause all the space that you had before is now almost cut in half. You know, so now everything else has to fit into the half slot. You know, and that's your job and that's hobbies and things that you want to do, priorities that you have. Like you have to kind of reprioritize where everything else sits because the kids and the family come first, they have to come first, you know? And then job for me is it has to come second, you know? So I have to just, and that might be forty to fifty, forty, forty-five percent of the of the a hundred percent and family's fifty. So you're left with five percent. You know, and you're like, man, what do I, you know what I mean?

• 1:02:01Steven Rinella?

  I never guided my pie out quite so carefully. That's a good, that's a good way to look at it.

• 1:02:05Speaker 05

  But you're going like, well, so then I began to think, you know, with, with the hunting stuff as well. How, you know, it's something that I love and, you know, something I hope that my kids love and I hope to get them involved into. But we talked about it last night, like, is it this inherently like selfish practice to want to get your kids involved into? The things that you love.

• 1:02:25Steven Rinella?

  Yes.

• 1:02:26Speaker 05

  It is.

• 1:02:26Steven Rinella?

  But it's, but it's.

• 1:02:27Speaker 05

  It's done.

• 1:02:28Steven Rinella?

  But it's good though.

• 1:02:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:02:29Steven Rinella?

  It's, it's, it's dual purpose.

• 1:02:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's dual purpose. Right. It gives you then, then some of your bandwidth for family. Time and time spent with your kids can also be, you know, it doesn't have to necessarily come out of the 5% that's left for you. It goes into the, you're, you're kind of, you, you're getting two birds stoned at once, as I like to say.

• 1:02:53Speaker 05

  And, uh, it's.

• 1:02:54Steven Rinella?

  Do you remember what PETA, PETA, like people for the ethical treatment of animals, they're trying to like, get people to stop using, um, expressions like kill two birds with one stone?

• 1:03:05Speaker 05

  That wasn't a real thing.

• 1:03:06Steven Rinella?

  No, it was. And it was like they're offering up alternatives. I did, but they would have loved that one.

• 1:03:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, get two birds stoned at once.

• 1:03:13Steven Rinella?

  Two birds stoned at once. Yeah. They're like trying to put a, instead of like, oh, you got your cart ahead of your horse. You know, well, that implies the horse has to pull a cart, which is mean.

• 1:03:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Steven Rinella?

  So you should change it to like, whatever.

• 1:03:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Steven Rinella?

  Hell, you did a better job than they did.

• 1:03:28Steven Rinella?

  Just sitting there right now. I'll just take that one.

• 1:03:31Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Steven Rinella?

  Uh, you know, you know what, you know what I, when you thought about, is it selfish to?

• 1:03:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Steven Rinella?

  You know, like, is it selfish to want to get your kids into? Hunting and fishing, if you, that's what you like to do. And I've thought about that a great deal. And I don't think that, um,

• 1:03:52Steven Rinella?

  I don't think I'm like, uh, overdoing it.

• 1:03:56Steven Rinella?

  Right, uh, I'm having a hard time talking right now. Like, picture that you're trying to rationalize buying some stupid vehicle.

• 1:04:05Speaker 05

  Oh, I don't have to picture that.

• 1:04:07Steven Rinella?

  No, yeah, and you're like, you come up with crazy, you come up with crazy shit, right? You come up with crazy shit. You're like, wow, you know, really what I need it for is picture that there was a lava flow, you know, and, and, and like, we got blocked in by a terrible lava flow.

• 1:04:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Steven Rinella?

  Well, now I, you know, this vehicle would, right? And you come up with insane shit to try to justify impulses you have.

• 1:04:30Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:04:31Steven Rinella?

  I don't think that when you go like, well, I want to get my kids into hunting and fishing is that selfish because that's what I want to do. Um.

• 1:04:40Speaker 04

  It's also super like healthy thing.

• 1:04:42Steven Rinella?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  It's like the.

• 1:04:44Steven Rinella?

  Sing it.

• 1:04:44Speaker 04

  It, it's so, there's so many things in this world that people are into themselves that getting your kids into it probably wouldn't be as healthy as getting your kids outside in nature.

• 1:04:58Speaker 05

  Oh, for sure. No, no doubt.

• 1:04:59Speaker 04

  Away from screens.

• 1:05:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Speaker 05

  Selfish didn't mean necessarily bad.

• 1:05:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 05

  Oh, no, but inherently like, there's some, there's, it's really like self-serving. Like, if all your kids got way into hunting, if it's like all of them.

• 1:05:13Steven Rinella?

  It's the greatest thing in the world.

• 1:05:15Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 1:05:15Speaker 04

  You're being a good parent.

• 1:05:16Speaker 05

  But that would be mission accomplished, dude.

• 1:05:18Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 1:05:18Speaker 05

  It doesn't mean you're not being a good parent. It means you're still being a good parent.

• 1:05:21Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, you're doing all that and like, there's even another, when I tried to make the list of all things like physical activity outside all this, right? Like learning about your environment, learning about seasons, like being exposed to, you know, life and death on the farm, right? All these positives, I also thought of this where I was thinking,

• 1:05:41Steven Rinella?

  um, whatever is your, whatever your passion is,

• 1:05:46Steven Rinella?

  I think it's productive to expose.

• 1:05:50Steven Rinella?

  Your kids to like intense enthusiasm.

• 1:05:53Speaker 05

  That's a good way to look at it.

• 1:05:54Steven Rinella?

  Like to expose your kids to like, what is it like? Demonstrate to them what it's like to just like love something.

• 1:06:00Speaker 05

  Well.

• 1:06:01Steven Rinella?

  And not just have it be the world is just this sort of eh.

• 1:06:04Speaker 05

  Well, me and my, me and my wife were discussing this one night, you know, uh, you know, being a musician is such a like fickle business, you know, and um, you know, eventually everything that goes up comes down in the music business, right? Whether it's just the constraints of time where it's like, you know, a new generation of listeners is coming in and they're like, oh, that guy's old or whatever. We don't listen to that guy anymore. You know what I mean? Like you eventually, you know, you become like kind of a like, like legacy act is kind of the term that's used, right?

• 1:06:35Steven Rinella?

  Sure.

• 1:06:36Speaker 05

  Um, so me and uh, me and my wife always discuss and I'm like, you know, sometimes if I'm having a tough day, I'll be coming through the house. I'm like, I'm just, I'll just be done, you know? Like I'm stomping around like, you know, like I burned my egg in the skillet and I'm like, wow, I just quit music. And she's like, what are you talking about? You know? And uh, I was like joking about it, you know? And um, we're, we're sitting down talking uh, kind of about it in a more serious way. One night after we had put the kids to bed and had dinner and um, you know, as I was almost like she was almost just kind of letting me vent, you know?

• 1:07:12Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:13Speaker 05

  Um, and I was talking to her and I realized I'm like, man, like, you know, like, one, like what would I do if I didn't?

• 1:07:24Speaker 05

  Do, you know, what would I be doing anyways? If I didn't do music, you know, I'd still be just, I'd be doing music. I should be doing it at home.

• 1:07:31Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:07:31Speaker 05

  Instead of, you know, I'd still be doing it in some ways. One, but two, it's like my.

• 1:07:36Steven Rinella?

  You got a song about that?

• 1:07:36Speaker 05

  It's true. I do have a song about that. And my kids are like, yeah, my sons are two and a half and one and a half, you know, as at the date of this recording, you know? And it's like, they've never seen me do my thing ever, dude. Like they don't know.

• 1:07:53Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:53Speaker 05

  They don't even know, dude. You know what I mean? Like they don't even.

• 1:07:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 1:07:58Speaker 05

  So I like, I want.

• 1:07:59Steven Rinella?

  They have no idea.

• 1:08:00Speaker 05

  Because like, I don't want the, I don't want, you know, their dad, which is me, right? Like I don't want their dad, like for them to know me as like, essentially like a retired guy. That's like.

• 1:08:14Steven Rinella?

  Wow.

• 1:08:15Speaker 05

  What does your dad do growing up? Oh, he didn't do anything. And like, what do you mean? Well, like, I don't know. He had a job before, like, before we can like, remember and stuff, but he doesn't, doesn't work now.

• 1:08:27Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Speaker 05

  He doesn't.

• 1:08:28Steven Rinella?

  Fried a good egg, though.

• 1:08:29Speaker 05

  Gosh.

• 1:08:29Steven Rinella?

  Perfect.

• 1:08:30Speaker 05

  Not even really that, you know, he can't even really do that very well, you know? Mess him up every once in a while. Yeah, he gets stuck on the cast iron and when he doesn't, when he gets too impatient to preheat it right, you know what I mean? He doesn't let it heat up slow enough, but it's, I, and so that ultimately was my conclusion, you know, to my own kind of mental conflict was like, well, I don't wanna like, I don't want my kids to know, like, me as like a lazy guy who doesn't

• 1:08:59Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Speaker 05

  do anything. Like, I want my kids to see me do things at a really high level.

• 1:09:04Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 1:09:05Speaker 05

  And pursue the things that I set out to achieve. And I want them to see me enjoying doing that. I want them to see me struggle doing that, you know, like, I want to expose them to all the gambit of emotions, you know, and, um, because, you know, I wa, I watched my parents go through that stuff. My parents just weren't successful musicians, you know, my dad was a maintenance man and my, me and my mom worked at the bank. And so it was like, they, you know, they worked so hard at a, at a job that they didn't even love. You know, and that taught me so much about, you know, that led me to where I am, you know? My parents always pushed me to have a job that, have a job that you love because we did it. Hmm. You know, and like, you can, it's such a, such a life hack to have a job that you love.

• 1:09:51Speaker 05

  You know what I mean? I think it's one of the biggest life hacks out there, man. You don't have to hate your job. And I think as a kid, a little bit, I thought that a little bit. Cause my parents didn't love their job, you know, they'd hate it, but it wasn't like, you know, mom didn't wake up and go, God, I can't wait to, you know,

• 1:10:07Steven Rinella?

  Get down to the bank.

• 1:10:07Speaker 05

  Get down to the bank today and sit at the desk all day and deal with people's mortgage paperwork, you know?

• 1:10:12Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Speaker 05

  That just wasn't something she was excited about.

• 1:10:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:15Speaker 05

  And so I remember thinking, even when I went in, to go into college, I'm like, well, I better get into business, cause I hate that. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's like, I just think there's kind of this like little falsehood where no one really tells you like, hey man, you don't have to like hate work. It's not something they tell you in school, or at least from my perspective, it was just like, yeah, man, like parents just, you know, parents come home and they bitch about work and work sucks and you're gonna have to work one day, so get ready.

• 1:10:51Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Speaker 05

  Enjoy your free time while you have it.

• 1:10:53Steven Rinella?

  Enjoy your freedom.

• 1:10:54Speaker 05

  Before you get in the suck of like having a job every day. Like you don't have to have a job you hate, you know? I wish people would have told me that earlier on, but I learned that by watching my parents.

• 1:11:04Speaker 03

  I wonder if that was like a, sort of like a generational thing too? Like, I feel like a lot of like my parents' friends have all these jobs that, you know, they don't necessarily love doing, but they just did it because they had a family and like, maybe it wasn't as easy to go do something you love back in the day.

• 1:11:21Speaker 05

  No, I, I mean, I think a lot of the, a lot of the reason that people do it is because they have to.

• 1:11:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Speaker 05

  They do it for their kids. You know what I mean? Like my dad didn't want to strap up or my mom didn't want to strap up and go in like, but they had to because like, you know, they gotta like buy groceries and, you know, they're doing it. I mean, it's a, it's a thing I think a lot of times, you know, at least if you're, if you're trying to, trying to be a good parent or raise your kids, right? You do it out of love, right?

• 1:11:48Steven Rinella?

  Did your parents have a lot for you? Did your parents have a lot of, uh, did they like explicitly express love for you a lot when you were little?

• 1:11:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, for sure. My, my mom did for sure, you know? I mean, my dad was a little more tough exterior guy. Like he wasn't like big cuddly, like, he wasn't like, it wasn't like best friend vibes. You know? My dad wasn't like, come on little buddy, let's go down to the fishing hole and, you know, throw, throw baseball. He was like, I work and on the weekends I work at home. I cause we, you know, we gotta mow the grass and we gotta weed eat and we gotta keep the house nice. And like, he was like, you know, mama, I mean, he was a, he always told me he, you know, loved me and was proud of me and stuff. He did. So there was never any question about that, but it was very like, it was just kind of stern like,

• 1:12:39Speaker 05

  you know, you needed to do your stuff. You need to, you know, make sure your room's clean and make sure, help your mom with whatever she needs in the house. And then, you know, mow the front, I'll do the riding mower and, you know, there's stuff to be done. There's things to be accomplished. You know, what I mean? And, uh, but yeah, dude, it was very, it was very kind of like healthy and normal in that sense of.

• 1:12:59Steven Rinella?

  Do you have a thing where, well, I'll tell you that I do and I'd be curious to get your thoughts on it just cause I'm parenting.

• 1:13:08Steven Rinella?

  I, I've tried hard to, um,

• 1:13:14Steven Rinella?

  like, it's kind of hard to explain. I, I've tried hard to demonstrate like a level of humility to my kids and a level of presence to my kids by, by

• 1:13:26Steven Rinella?

  making sure that they see me all the time doing like the mundane shit that needs to happen and running a household.

• 1:13:38Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:13:40Steven Rinella?

  Right. That like, no one's above it.

• 1:13:42Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:13:43Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:13:44Speaker 05

  Yep. Exactly.

• 1:13:45Steven Rinella?

  And so I want them to like, especially when they're little, man. I was like, I it need, like someone needed to do it. It needed to happen, but I was like, I want them to see that, that you come in with a plan at a time and like you prepare dinner.

• 1:14:04Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:14:04Steven Rinella?

  And that like they set the table, they help clean up. It's like, no one is above any of this shit.

• 1:14:10Speaker 05

  No, definitely. And we have, I mean, we're even doing it, you know, our, obviously, you know, two and a half and one and a half, you're limited with what you can do. But, I mean, we even now, like the kids, you know, we, we live in a 2,000 square foot house, man. It's me, it was two bedrooms. Me and my wife have a room and then the kids, the. Boys share a room. So it's not like you're never, we're always close together. We're always tied in there. You know, with the, the living room is the playroom. So all the kids' toys are in there and so, and you know, they got all kinds of stuff that grandma and grandpa's bought them and, you know, aunts and uncles and friends and stuff like that. And they play in there and destroy, I mean, we let them just, I mean, destroy it. But it's like every night, it's like, all right, we're all cleaning up now.

• 1:14:56Speaker 05

  And mom and dad are cleaning up, but y'all, but y'all are like, to the extent that a one and a half year old, you know, he'll, he'll get a block and bring it over and, you know, he might only pick up two things. But my two and a half year old now, like he can actually make, he can make a 5% dent in the cleanup. And he understands, but he understands, dude, like that's, but we, we make it a point to go, hey, man, like you need to help us with this stuff. This is, this is your job. You make a mess, you gotta clean it up. You know, if he spills his milk, we give him a paper towel. He can't really do anything. He smears it around. And you know, we go back behind him and actually clean it up, but you know, we make him go and, you know, he dabs the paper towel and it soaks a little bit of milk up and he throws it in the garbage and.

• 1:15:40Speaker 04

  At that age, they don't even realize it's a chore, kind of.

• 1:15:43Speaker 05

  Right. They're just like, oh yeah, I get the help. That's, that's pretty cool. But like, yeah, reinforcing those things all the time, you know? I think we, we're also discussing this at some point yesterday, the three of us, but my life is so like, it's so normal outside of like when I'm playing shows. Like I really don't do a whole lot of, of anything other than I go play my shows and I come home and I spend time with my wife and my kids. And I do whatever work stuff I have to do when I'm home, whether that's writing songs, which most of the time I'm doing at my house. You know, with my friends and stuff and I'm just there, dude. Like I'm just,

• 1:16:24Speaker 05

  I'm basically like in some ways like a, like a, it's another form of a stay at home parent when I'm, when I'm not, when I'm not on the road. And even at, you know, when we're touring the stadiums, I'm only gone three days a week. So I'm home four days a week, every week, like full time, like sun up, sundown, most days. Like getting the kids up, changing diapers, doing baths, cooking dinners, cooking lunches, cooking breakfasts. It's like, but I want, and that's, that occupies a lot of my time, but that's what I want. I want my kids' childhood to feel as normal as it can, given the very strange circumstances that it will ultimately become.

• 1:17:06Speaker 04

  That's pretty cool that you can, you know, get where you've been at and are at and can still do that.

• 1:17:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, but you have to, you know, that's such, that's a choice you have to make. And you lose a lot of things with that in the sense of like, there's so many cool opportunities that I have that maybe,

• 1:17:24Speaker 05

  you know, would be really, not really beneficial, but cool experiences or beneficial to my career that I, I pass on to do that for my kids. And my kids, stuff that my kids will probably really never even know outside of maybe if they see this one day. It's not something I'm bragging, like I'm such a good dad, you know, like it's not that, it's just that I, I say this all the time, but like my kids didn't ask to be born.

• 1:17:50Speaker 05

  I made the choice to like, it was my choice to bring them into the world, right? So it's to me, it's my duty.

• 1:17:57Steven Rinella?

  A lot of dudes don't put that together.

• 1:17:58Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:17:59Steven Rinella?

  Like I would want, like I want to sit here, my, my impulse here is to sit here and like, talk about how commendable it is that you have the philosophy you have. And one time I was, my brother Danny, we were talking about someone saying, him saying how weird it was that people would routinely express almost in a surprising way. He's such a good dad. He's like,

• 1:18:20Speaker 05

  Like, like that's the exception.

• 1:18:22Steven Rinella?

  How did we land in a spot where it's like worth pointing out, like people are like, are pointing out good dads.

• 1:18:28Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Steven Rinella?

  He's like, wait, you mean like, you mean I'm not sociopathic? That's great.

• 1:18:33Speaker 05

  Dude, you're saying we're, we're, we're having a dad crisis right now. We're in the midst of a dad crisis.

• 1:18:38Steven Rinella?

  Well, that's what he was, he was like, he just was kind of just in this moment of like somewhat levity. He was kind of saying that it's funny that the bar seems to be rather lower to become celebrated as,

• 1:18:50Speaker 05

  as just a dad who does what he's supposed to do.

• 1:18:53Speaker 04

  It's because people aren't getting married early enough.

• 1:18:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, yeah. Before we began the show, we were talking about a dear friend of mine who sends me articles all the time pointing out that people are waiting till later, putting off getting married, you know, like it's distressing to them. He has four kids. It's distressing.

• 1:19:15Steven Rinella?

  He's like, those sons of bitches, they're getting away with something.

• 1:19:19Steven Rinella?

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• 1:20:04Steven Rinella?

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• 1:20:46Steven Rinella?

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• 1:21:37Steven Rinella?

  But it is, man, it's like, uh, it is, it is cool to do that. And I think that it'll be an interesting trip for your kids to, um, it'll be an interesting trip when your kids start putting together this other world. That they think of you as like some dude like, no, and then he's gone. He's always, you know, he's here, he's just whatever. And I remember with my own kids, um, I remember with my own kids, they were not that old, man. It used to really bother them, maybe like at

• 1:22:09Steven Rinella?

  five, six, seven years of age.

• 1:22:13Steven Rinella?

  When he started putting together that we'd be in the airport or something and someone would come up to me.

• 1:22:18Speaker 05

  Uh, right.

• 1:22:19Steven Rinella?

  And, and, uh, they didn't like it.

• 1:22:23Speaker 05

  Really?

• 1:22:23Steven Rinella?

  They were like defensive. They're like, they were territorial. Now they're like totally cool about they don't, you know, when it happens on, you know, when, when it does happen. And if we go somewhere as a family, you know, we're like to have a layover or whatever.

• 1:22:35Speaker 05

  They're used to it.

• 1:22:36Steven Rinella?

  It'll be a little bit and it doesn't, they just, they, it doesn't even register with them.

• 1:22:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, they're just like, oh, it's part of the thing.

• 1:22:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, but at a time, I remember they were, uh, like, there's like a, like, as this was coming clear to them that there would be people that would like, like the, like that their dad made something or wrote something and people liked it.

• 1:22:56Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:22:57Steven Rinella?

  And would come up unannounced, they brought out in them like a territorial instinct.

• 1:23:03Speaker 05

  That's interesting.

• 1:23:04Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, to be like, don't, their kind of tendency was like, like, like, get away. Do you know what I mean? They didn't like that shit.

• 1:23:10Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:23:11Steven Rinella?

  And they wouldn't even have been able to articulate it, but just how they physically responded to it.

• 1:23:14Speaker 05

  Right. I often wonder like, you know, I, I've discussed with some other artist buddies that have kids, you know, and that some that whose kids are a bit older than mine, you know, and I'm like, when do you, when do you like, is there a definitive moment where you have to like, have the conversation with them like, hey, let me explain this to you? And so, but like, let me explain to you what's going on. And the reason I say that is because I've had a few artist buddies, like, well, you gotta tell them as soon as they're able to understand, or someone else is going to.

• 1:23:50Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 1:23:52Speaker 05

  They're gonna learn it from someone else. And you want to learn it from you. You want them to learn it from you, kind of like, you don't, you don't want them showing up at home one day and going, well, what is, why do all my friends think it's cool that you're my dad?

• 1:24:06Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Speaker 05

  Why are you different than everyone else's dad? You know what I mean? It's like, it's an interesting, and it's obviously a niche problem, right? Like, there's not, there's not any books written on, you know, how to, how to tell your kids that you're a famous musician, or whatever it may be, you know what I mean?

• 1:24:23Steven Rinella?

  There maybe should be one, but I don't, the audience to be small. But I think that it's what winds up being, what winds up being hard on them. And, and and this, like, for me to be talking about this issue, we're talking about like a, like a, like a, like a D-list, whatever, like, whatever the lowest level of celebrity a person can have is like where I'm at, right? And then you're like way, like,

• 1:24:50Speaker 05

  I wouldn't say way.

• 1:24:51Steven Rinella?

  You're like way up the ladder. But there's a thing that, that even, no matter what winds up having the kids is there, there's a thing where it's like

• 1:25:02Steven Rinella?

  among peers or people around, there's this kind of like a little bit of like, you ain't all that.

• 1:25:10Steven Rinella?

  Meaning that they'll encounter.

• 1:25:12Speaker 05

  Right, resistance from other people.

• 1:25:14Steven Rinella?

  They'll encounter like a, you ain't, you know, you think you're all that, or like, you ain't just because you're dad.

• 1:25:20Speaker 05

  Right. And they may not think that at all, but the other people interpret.

• 1:25:23Steven Rinella?

  It'll be there. And, and the point I'm making about if you sit down and were to talk to them.

• 1:25:31Steven Rinella?

  They're seeing things and forming impressions.

• 1:25:36Speaker 05

  Such a fast rate.

• 1:25:36Steven Rinella?

  From like ambient things, ambient clues and cues.

• 1:25:41Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:25:43Steven Rinella?

  That is way faster than would be their ability that that that that happens, that influx of inputs about what's going on in the world. Happens earlier than it than would be the ability for them to understand what you were trying to explain to them. Meaning if you waited till they were, let's say something happened to you in in the past and you were able to like. And you you lived a reality that that was totally outside of your past. And at some point you need to say, hey, there's something I need to tell you about. A thing that happened to me a long time ago. Right? Like a long time ago, this crazy thing happened. At some point you might become aware of this and I want to explain it to you. At in that case, you might be able to wait.

• 1:26:28Steven Rinella?

  Until you could have a rational conversation with your kids.

• 1:26:31Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:26:32Steven Rinella?

  But if something's actively ongoing now.

• 1:26:37Steven Rinella?

  They're already on it. Before you'd be able to explain it to them.

• 1:26:41Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:26:42Steven Rinella?

  Meaning all their buddies like travel a certain way. And it'd be like, well, I get the feeling we can't really travel that way. Like it's kind of risky. And so we travel this very different way.

• 1:26:55Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:26:57Steven Rinella?

  You know?

• 1:26:57Speaker 05

  I mean.

• 1:26:58Steven Rinella?

  They're on it, man.

• 1:26:59Speaker 05

  Like, no, for sure.

• 1:27:00Steven Rinella?

  They're on it way ahead of their ability to for you to sit down and talk to them about it. They've already like put together in their head that like there's something different when we go somewhere.

• 1:27:08Speaker 05

  Oh, for sure. And I think that.

• 1:27:10Steven Rinella?

  Like, why don't we go to Chuck E. Cheese's?

• 1:27:12Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, there's also like this inherent like innocence, though, or like the situation that they're in is like their normal and they almost think that. Everyone's situation is is that too in some ways like I've I had an artist buddy who I'm pretty close with and he was telling me about one of his kids being at school and they're younger, you know, like you were talking like kindergarten, like first grade or whatever, you know, and someone was they were talking to another kid and this is like a conversation that the teacher had, I guess, with him or something. And I don't remember those exact specifics of how he heard about it, but it's like someone was talking, one of the kids

• 1:27:52Speaker 05

  was talking to his kid about something and his kid was like, oh, what song does your daddy have on the radio, you know?

• 1:28:02Speaker 05

  And it was like, and the teacher kind of thought that maybe the child was like trying to slight the other child or something, but like, it was really just like, she just thought that everyone's dad was like sung on the radio because like her dad does. And my kids like they'll see me on or they'll see me and my wife, you know, like on an award show or something like, you know, like, because when we go like to the CMA awards or to the Grammys or something like, you know, my parents or whoever will let the kids stay up and like, watch because they know, you know, dad is going to be singing on TV, you know?

• 1:28:35Speaker 04

  What awards does your dad have? We got employee of the month.

• 1:28:38Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:28:39Speaker 04

  And Ace Hardware last.

• 1:28:41Speaker 05

  And I had another buddy who's a songwriter and and he was like, he said, you know, I had been over and and like met his kids and stuff, we ate or whatever at their house. And I remember him telling me this, we were on a writing trip and he was like, dude, my kids like they know that like me and you are like are friends that I that I know you and stuff. And I was like, yeah, it's like, and he said, so the other night we're having dinner and like, it's like his daughter. So it's like, well, dad, can we have Justin Bieber over for dinner?

• 1:29:17Speaker 05

  And he was like, she just thought I knew every famous musician that I could just call any of them and just have them over at any time because I know you like so it's such an interesting so they also like they only understand the world and kind of this like tunnel visiony like whatever their surroundings are is how they kind of perceive everything at that age so it's interesting to like how that factors into the way things will become and I'm I worries was like you really got to steer you really it's like it's my job to kind of open the that worldview up to like hey this this thing isn't normal you know but it doesn't it doesn't make you better than anyone else.

• 1:30:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, you're doing a way better job of explaining what I was trying to get at when I said that there's there's no aha moment.

• 1:30:09Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:30:09Steven Rinella?

  There's no moment when you come in and go like hey you know before you find out I wanted to explain that I'm kind of like a music like a famous musician.

• 1:30:16Speaker 05

  There's no big bang of like they figure it all out.

• 1:30:19Steven Rinella?

  They're already doing a thing and they're already doing like they there's going to be no no there's not like a no shit moment for them because they're just assembling it all and I think that what I was trying to get at when I mentioned

• 1:30:35Steven Rinella?

  exposing your kids to just doing all the mundane stuff is later if they'd be like later if they'd come to some realization that there is something weird you know that their dad like makes TV shows or that their dad you know writes books and other people read the books or whatever does does these kind of like seemingly unusual things I just kind of want them to be to think like moment the guy that like unplugs the toilets in the house and like no one else will do it but he has like the like the guy like mom's not gonna do that and she'll wait and dad's gonna do that like that guy like that's the feeling I want them to have later is to be like the guy crawling around under the sink trying

• 1:31:20Steven Rinella?

  to figure out what's going on with something.

• 1:31:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:31:22Steven Rinella?

  That dude.

• 1:31:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, you guys want a picture of that guy?

• 1:31:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that it's just like that's a thing I'm and maybe it's just only a problem I've created only in my head, but I just don't want there to be any sense of I don't want like I hate to have to think that your kids would develop a sense of exceptionalism.

• 1:31:41Speaker 05

  Yes, that that worries that worries me and my wife a lot too. You know, we want to make sure like we did. It's really like, you know, we don't want, we don't want them to be a product of their circumstances in a negative way.

• 1:31:53Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:54Speaker 05

  You know what I mean? Worry about you see that all the time.

• 1:31:56Steven Rinella?

  We'll make it when we eat out, we'll make our kids. I'm not kidding you, man. We'll make them get down under the table and pick up. If they've like dropped a bunch of french fries and stuff.

• 1:32:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:32:09Steven Rinella?

  Or like they police the area and like getting off a plane, they police the area.

• 1:32:14Speaker 05

  Oh dude, we do the same thing.

• 1:32:15Steven Rinella?

  And to be like you, this is not someone's responsibility, dude.

• 1:32:19Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:32:20Steven Rinella?

  Like they're gonna they'll come and pick up the plates and stuff. You are not leaving that shit on that booth.

• 1:32:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, all the things you guys are talking about too, though, like even for just Joe Schmo dad, you know, it's like everyone's responsibility. Any anybody, no matter who you are, like

• 1:32:39Speaker 05

  For sure.

• 1:32:39Speaker 04

  It's no, I'm trying to articulate.

• 1:32:42Steven Rinella?

  No, you're right. Yeah, like why is like

• 1:32:44Speaker 05

  It's like everyone should be doing that.

• 1:32:45Steven Rinella?

  Why wouldn't you do all this?

• 1:32:46Speaker 05

  Right, exactly.

• 1:32:47Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I don't know. It becomes it's like a, I guess it takes on like a slip.

• 1:32:51Speaker 05

  I guess it's probably we like someone in in our particular situation would worry that it would be easier for them to fall into just being a complete dirtbag.

• 1:33:01Steven Rinella?

  Yes.

• 1:33:02Speaker 05

  If left unchecked.

• 1:33:03Steven Rinella?

  I guess that I guess.

• 1:33:03Speaker 05

  It would be easier for them to be like, oh, well, this is someone will come and get my coffee when I'm done. Someone will pick that up. You know, that would be easier for them to to end up at than it would be for like if your dad worked at a factory. You know, you're you're closer to that finish line of being, you know, a scumbag pretty much like, you know.

• 1:33:26Steven Rinella?

  I, yeah.

• 1:33:26Speaker 05

  If he start off.

• 1:33:29Steven Rinella?

  There's a way you could maybe there's a way, you know what it is?

• 1:33:33Steven Rinella?

  Dude, you're ma- trust you're making a great point like why would what we're talking like that should apply to everybody? It should apply to every kid and every kid in America should like tighten up their spot when they leave a restaurant and not be like, well, they'll get it. No kid in America should do it. I guess what I worry about is what I would worry about is there's probably a way.

• 1:33:56Steven Rinella?

  It would, for, for people of like, people in a certain level of like financial stability, a certain level of connections, a certain level of a really good rolodex, a certain level of like parental support, like, oh, you want to do an internship at such and such place? Let me make some calls, right?

• 1:34:16Speaker 05

  Nepotism.

• 1:34:17Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, nepotism, that you'd be like, there's a pathway for your kids to think, to realize one day that they probably could get away with that shit.

• 1:34:26Speaker 05

  Yeah, cheat code.

• 1:34:27Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they're like, you know what?

• 1:34:30Steven Rinella?

  I cannot clean up my area, I cannot show up to work at 7 a.m., I cannot mow lawns,

• 1:34:39Steven Rinella?

  and I can skip all that junk and I'll probably be able to pull it together because my old man knows a lot of people.

• 1:34:46Steven Rinella?

  He's gonna, he'll, he'll, he'll figure, my parents will figure it out.

• 1:34:49Speaker 05

  They'll bail me out.

• 1:34:50Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they'll, they'll figure it out. The college shit, like, I'll get, I'll get letters of recommendation.

• 1:34:55Speaker 05

  Right, or, or dad could, you know, donate enough money to the scholarship fund or whatever it is.

• 1:35:02Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, so you have a fear that they're gonna be like, yeah, you know.

• 1:35:06Speaker 05

  That they're gonna expect those things, expect you to do things for them.

• 1:35:09Steven Rinella?

  I'm not cleaning up my booth.

• 1:35:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, but yeah, that is where it starts though, you know, that stuff leads into, you know, like privilege, right? Like you're, you know, you, you think that you're, you know, you're almost entitled to, well, I should, dad should just call and figure this out for me, and I expect that to happen.

• 1:35:28Speaker 03

  Is it like, kind of like a constant battle though, like, because like, obviously with guys like in your position, like you guys are exposed to some things that are not normal whatsoever. So like, is there like a, like a inkling to like expose your kids in a way like, oh, this is really cool, but like you don't want to, like overdo it kind of thing? Does that make sense?

• 1:35:47Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:35:48Speaker 03

  This is like, do you guys think about that? Like, yeah, like you guys are, have some like really cool opportunities.

• 1:35:55Speaker 05

  I think there's, I think there's unavoidably some of the stuff, some of that stuff you have to do. Like I think about it every time, like, you know, like my kids haven't, you know, they haven't been through like. The regular airport.

• 1:36:09Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:36:09Speaker 05

  Hmm. You know what I mean? Obviously, they wouldn't even remember it if they did anyways, but like, and they haven't flown a bunch, you know, but we've gone down, you know, we've, you know, chartered a plane to go down to Florida or something, you know?

• 1:36:22Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 1:36:22Speaker 05

  And it's like that, that to them is normal. So it's my job to explain to them that, hey, man, this is not a normal thing. And it's a, it's super privileged to get to do this, but it's not something that you are necessarily entitled to. It's not something that you should feel like this is the standard and it's, you know, it's beneath me to go to the airport or, you know, so you have to like inherently, your kids would be exposed to those things. Sometimes not by choice, right? But the cool opportunities too, it's like, I do ride the line and I was thinking about this before you said it, it's like, when you were talking about, well, dad's got this cool Rolodex and, you know, he can call this guy or that guy.

• 1:37:07Speaker 05

  You get to the, you get to the line too, where like you try everything you can to make sure that your kids turn out to be decent. You know, humble people. That's the goal for me and my wife with our boys, you know, is to make them respectful and, and we want them to just ultimately be good people, right? But as the dad, your dad instinct comes in too, and you're like, whoa, you know, I really, I want to give them every advantage that I can because that's also a fatherly instinct as well.

• 1:37:38Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:38Speaker 05

  So I think there's a trap built in a little bit too, where you could go, well, I've got to, you know, I've got to call that school and see if I can pull some strings to get my kid in because I really, because I'm their dad.

• 1:37:52Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:53Speaker 05

  So that's like, it's like you ride that razor's edge too of like, you don't want to, you don't want it to turn into a nepotism thing. But just your fatherly instinct is just to do everything you can for your kids. And would everyone else not do that as well? Would everyone else not go, well, if I had, if I thought my kid was right on the line of getting into Stanford or wherever it is, some Ivy League school. Obviously they're, you know, they're not gonna, if they got a 2.0 grade point average, they're not gonna get in. But if they're right on the line anyways, due to their own achievements, do you as a dad call and go, hey, what can I do to help my child?

• 1:38:37Speaker 05

  Is there something I can do?

• 1:38:39Steven Rinella?

  Is there a chance I could pardon them for federal tax evasion and weapons charges?

• 1:38:46Speaker 05

  But then I

• 1:38:46Steven Rinella?

  Because as a dad.

• 1:38:48Speaker 05

  But then I, but then I wonder too, like, what if you, what if your kid found out later on down the line, like, let's say you, you decide as a parent, I'm not gonna help them at all with this. Which I can understand. I can understand you going, no dude, you, it needs to be a merit based thing. And I get that and it should be, I think. And then they don't get it and they're crushed, dude. And that like, that's the, that's the meteorite that like knocks the ship off course.

• 1:39:16Steven Rinella?

  It'd be bitterness.

• 1:39:17Speaker 05

  And then they go, I, my dad could have called and done something for me and he didn't.

• 1:39:22Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:22Speaker 05

  Do that. But then we're getting back to, do they expect things that they shouldn't expect?

• 1:39:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:28Speaker 05

  So it's like, you're, it's kinda like

• 1:39:30Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it's tough.

• 1:39:30Speaker 05

  That, but that's just being a parent, dude. Being a parent is just, you're making the best decisions that you think you are making for your kids. And that's all you can do, you know?

• 1:39:39Speaker 04

  It's real easy to worry about all that stuff.

• 1:39:42Speaker 05

  It is, man, it is.

• 1:39:43Speaker 04

  It's just like, just try to do the best you can, you know?

• 1:39:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. We're now into the turkey regulations of parenting.

• 1:39:49Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:49Speaker 05

  We dive very deep.

• 1:39:53Steven Rinella?

  Chili, I wanna, uh,

• 1:39:56Steven Rinella?

  answer

• 1:39:58Steven Rinella?

  the question you asked about like presenting with opportunities.

• 1:40:01Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:40:01Steven Rinella?

  And I, I catch myself doing a, uh, a combo deal. Like a definite combo deal, meaning

• 1:40:10Speaker 05

  You, you keep track?

• 1:40:11Steven Rinella?

  No, no, meaning this, like, let me, I'll just let me give you a scenario that hasn't happened. Let's say I met someone and they're like, uh, hey, man, uh, you know, my cousin owns an island in the Seychelles and no one's ever there. You guys should go spring break on this private island in the Seychelles. And in fact, his cousin has a little charter business and they'll fly you all out there. Okay?

• 1:40:36Steven Rinella?

  Uh, do you go like, damn it, I'm not taking my kids to that island and say shells. Because I don't, I don't want them to like, you know, that's not available to anyone. Right. So I'm not, I wouldn't do that. I would have that in my mind. I'd be like, man, you know what we should do? I'd go say to my wife, like, it's gonna sound crazy, but we, we can go to this like island and say shells where this dude has his place and no one's there. And he said, we could go hang out there. So we would go, but when we're there, I would be,

• 1:41:08Steven Rinella?

  we'd be like eating shit that we caught out of the rocks. Do you know what I mean? Or if there was like a lime tree or, you know what I mean? We'd be like, man, we're gonna go out, we're gonna get those limes, we're gonna squeeze all lime juice out of them. We're gonna catch some crabs down there and we're gonna, do you know what I mean? Yeah. We're gonna like make stuff and, and do hands-on stuff. And, and you're gonna see the process of going from nothing, just like what's here, to we're gonna have like a little meal. And so it doesn't,

• 1:41:39Steven Rinella?

  meaning there's like practical skill and element to it and, and like getting a little bit uncomfortable, but I wouldn't be able to turn down Totally. The thing. And so when I say like a combo deal, it would be that like we, we every spring break, you know, we go down to the beach in Baja every spring break. For, for when we make lunch, we're making fish that we shot because we climb in the water and, and go spearfishing. It's lux, it's very luxurious. But it's like, there is a little bit of element of scrappiness. Yeah. We, we build a little scrappiness into it. Built some adverse, built in adversity. Yeah, like you build in a little, like a little something that kinda needs to be paid attention to and it's a little dicey, right? And you, you know, whatever. It, it's so,

• 1:42:25Steven Rinella?

  but I, I can't, I, I can't say that I turned down, I, I can't say that I turned down sort of opportunities that would show them whole parts of the world or parts of global experience. Right. I don't go like, I'm not gonna show that to you. Gotcha. I don't want you to feel like you got a leg up. Right. You know, but I'll take them there and when I take them there, I try to.

• 1:42:52Steven Rinella?

  I don't know, man, like, like, I, I try to keep the experience grounded and respectful and real and also try to point out that this is exceptional.

• 1:43:02Speaker 04

  And hopefully they realize though, how they got on that vacation in the first place. Cause you guys got, you guys worked hard, very hard to get into the positions you're at. And I think kids might realize that, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:43:16Steven Rinella?

  Like, I would never, ever, like,

• 1:43:20Steven Rinella?

  I would, that they gotta pick up on. I would never say that.

• 1:43:24Speaker 04

  Right. But I think they do pick up on that.

• 1:43:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that, I think to say it, to articulate it, um,

• 1:43:33Steven Rinella?

  you know, I worked hard for this, like to articulate it, I think is too, there's too much chance of backfire. It's like they, I, I kinda trust they have to just see it.

• 1:43:42Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:43:42Steven Rinella?

  I hope that they notice.

• 1:43:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:43:45Steven Rinella?

  I can't picture how you bring it up.

• 1:43:46Speaker 05

  But you're also trying to like, you know, we talked about this touchstone a little bit earlier. It's like you want them to see you working hard.

• 1:43:54Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:43:54Speaker 05

  You know what I mean? Like I want my, you know, like I want my kids to, you know, come to the studio and see it's like, oh, well, the records don't just, it doesn't take five minutes to make the records, you know, it takes a year to make them. And there's a lot of other people that do a lot of hard work too. It's not just, it's not, it's not me, me, me. Like my face is on the CD, but there's an army of people that make this possible. You know, there's a lot of people with a lot of skills that are a part of everything that I do, whether it's on the road or in the writing room or in the studio. Like I am just a small part of the thing. There are so many more incredibly

• 1:44:36Speaker 05

  talented people involved in what I do other than just me. I want my kids to see that too. You know what I mean? Cause you know, you hear the whole, it takes a village thing. I think life takes a village too, right? Like your own life, not just raising your kids, but your own life too. Like appreciating. The people that you have in the journey with you and how much they contribute to your success as well. Yep. And you have a great team around you, man. I think that's what I love about being out here. It's like, you know, it's always the same guys. And that says a lot about what it is. There's not a lot of turnover. I've been out and done a lot of stuff with you guys, man. And it's like, it's always the same guys. And that's the way my thing is, you know, for the most part.

• 1:45:20Speaker 05

  I mean, I've said, there's very, very low turnover in, in my world. And that's very rare in the music business.

• 1:45:29Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean and they'll get years and years of use out of a set.

• 1:46:13Steven Rinella?

  Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today. OnX Hunt is full of great features. I always say it's, it's my favorite app. I use the thing on a, on a daily basis. Here's a new feature I'm very excited about. OnX Hunt's location sharing puts your whole group on one live map. So you can look and tell where everyone is. And if at night it gets dark and someone's not back yet, you don't got to guess what happened to them or where they are. You can just look and tell where they are. It has implications for safety, coordination. I can't even list all the ways in which this is helpful. You opt in and then when you guys are done, the data goes away. It's not stored. Keep the folks in your deer camp on the same page with location sharing from OnX Hunt.

• 1:46:59Speaker 05

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• 1:47:41Speaker 07

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• 1:47:58Speaker 03

  One of the earliest things that struck me when I met you is that you, I was like, man, this guy has a lot of loyalty to his bus driver.

• 1:48:07Speaker 05

  Love, love.

• 1:48:08Speaker 03

  Like he's like your best friend.

• 1:48:09Speaker 05

  He's the man, dude. Yeah. But I mean, he drives me, I mean, my life is in his hands while I'm asleep, dude. You know what I mean?

• 1:48:16Speaker 03

  No, you respect, yeah, yeah, I can tell you had a lot of respect for the dude, you know?

• 1:48:19Speaker 05

  Appreciate what he does. And, you know, I think that's the cool thing about, you know, being in, you know, the position that, that I'm lucky to be in is, you know, you can impact so many people in a positive way, man. You know, like you can bring everybody along for the ride, you know, like you can improve, improve so many people's lives. If you give a shit enough to do that, you can easily do that, you know? And I mean, you know, a lot of my friends, man, like we're, we're long, we're in this thing together, man. And now, a lot of my buddies are really successful, not, not just with my thing, but with other things now. Because we all, we all went

• 1:49:01Speaker 05

  through the door together, man. Like the success door opened for all of us.

• 1:49:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:49:05Speaker 05

  When I got, you know, when I got my deal and my thing took off, like I wanted to help my buddies, like, let's all get in here and do the thing, man. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to just go through myself. Like, imagine having all this success and nobody to share it with.

• 1:49:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:49:19Speaker 05

  What fun would there be in that? I can't imagine going on the road and not caring about the guys in my band. But that happens. There's guys that are like, oh, yes, this guy, yeah, whatever. Play the guitar. Great. I don't hang out with him. I don't, I don't know him. Don't really care to that much. Yeah. But that, that's the thing that happens, which is baffling to me. You know, I can't ima- cause I'm such a, I'm such a people person, such a friends guy. I love being around people, interacting with them and, um, you know, obviously I want it to be, you know, people that I like, genuine folks, you know, I would say. Um, but that's so much fun, dude. I mean, you guys have fun on these trips, man. They're work trips.

• 1:50:02Speaker 05

  And there's times to you that I'm sure it feels like work coming out here and doing these things, but ultimately you go, man, if this is the worst day, if you had the worst day you could have on a meat eater trip, it's better than the best day for a lot of people. Oh, yeah. And that's, and it's mostly because of the people. Hmm. Imagine if you were stuck here all day. It's raining all day on the turkey hunt like it is today. And you couldn't do anything and you hated everyone that was out here too.

• 1:50:32Speaker 05

  At least here you could sit around and joke and laugh and, Yeah. you know, eat food together and tell stories and just enjoy each other's company. But there's guys on the road who maybe they have a bad day on the road and they don't even have any friends out there at all, dude. They just have people that work for them that are around. Hmm. And they're just out there by their lonesome, just being miserable. I couldn't imagine what that's like. Cause when I have tough days, I at least have people that I can turn to, you know, and, and talk to about it that understand and that actually care. Yeah. To listen to and they care about how I'm feeling or I care about how they're feeling.

• 1:51:11Speaker 05

  You know, that, that atmosphere I think is, is so important, you know, and you guys have that. So that's why I like, that's why I like being around you guys. You guys have that too. At least from the outside perspective, it seems like you do, you know, which is neat. Thanks, man. Yeah.

• 1:51:28Speaker 05

  Appreciate it. Yeah.

• 1:51:30Steven Rinella?

  Ready to wrap up? Oh, go ahead.

• 1:51:32Speaker 04

  You got any, uh, new records or anything that you can talk about that you're?

• 1:51:38Speaker 05

  I don't.

• 1:51:43Steven Rinella?

  Where are you at in the cycle? Where are you at in the cycle?

• 1:51:45Speaker 05

  Um, I'm at the si- I'm at the point now, like we're, I'm about to go in the studio for the first, first session on cutting my next record. So, um, we're trying to cut probably anywhere from like, you know, in a worst case scenario of four, best case six.

• 1:52:00Steven Rinella?

  And how many do you have? How many do you have the seed for? Like, you know, like some weeks I wonder if I should start a new trash bag, like at least that far along.

• 1:52:07Speaker 05

  Oh, like how, like how, like how many, how full is the trash bag? Right? Um, I would say right now, I mean, songs that are in serious contention to make the record, I mean,

• 1:52:22Speaker 05

  forty to fifty.

• 1:52:26Speaker 05

  That are like.

• 1:52:27Steven Rinella?

  Really?

• 1:52:27Speaker 06

  You gotta whittle that down to.

• 1:52:29Speaker 05

  You gotta whittle it down. And then you're get, and then you're.

• 1:52:31Steven Rinella?

  Making a calendar.

• 1:52:32Speaker 05

  And then you're getting in like heavyweight, like you're getting in, it's like heavyweight fights. Cause all the songs, like you really like all of them.

• 1:52:39Steven Rinella?

  One, you're sitting on a pile of forty to fifty?

• 1:52:42Speaker 05

  Oh, damn it. So listen.

• 1:52:45Steven Rinella?

  I thought you'd say fifteen.

• 1:52:49Steven Rinella?

  Twenty, I don't know.

• 1:52:49Speaker 05

  Fifteen would be fin- we're done.

• 1:52:52Steven Rinella?

  I thought you like, you gotta get rid of a few maybe, you know?

• 1:52:55Speaker 05

  Well, I think, you know, I think now people are putting out bigger and bigger records. That's been a trend, you know, as, as the streaming. Yeah. Economy has taken off.

• 1:53:03Steven Rinella?

  Oh, that's driven.

• 1:53:04Speaker 05

  Bigger, it's, oh, for sure.

• 1:53:05Steven Rinella?

  That drives more too.

• 1:53:06Speaker 05

  Well, it's driving, you know, now, cause you're, instead of selling a physical CD, right? Like, back in the day, you were limited by how many songs could be on a CD.

• 1:53:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:16Speaker 05

  And so then, you know, you're, if you start putting out a double CD, back then you gotta start charging people double. Cause now there's two discs in there that you've purchased and packaging and special cases and all that stuff. So you don't want. You feel like that will impact sales because the consumer goes, well, I don't want to pay twice as much for this album.

• 1:53:37Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:38Speaker 05

  So that limited people from putting too many songs on their record because they didn't want to risk not selling as many by having too many songs because then people had to pay twice as more for it.

• 1:53:48Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like.

• 1:53:49Speaker 05

  Now you can put out.

• 1:53:50Steven Rinella?

  Use your illusion one and two.

• 1:53:51Speaker 05

  Right. Now you've got, and I think country is the first genre that has really started putting out these big hit records where there's a bunch of songs on them, you know.

• 1:54:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, like Morgan's records have been.

• 1:54:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, his next record is thirty seven, I think.

• 1:54:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:54:09Speaker 05

  Thirty seven songs.

• 1:54:09Steven Rinella?

  Humming?

• 1:54:10Speaker 05

  Thirty seven. And then Zac Brown, I think, did thirty six, you know, and those guys are that they, and it's, I mean, it's a brilliant strategy, right? Because your album sales are, you know, it's based off of its stream equivalent.

• 1:54:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, and I guess, yeah, that's a great point that I never thought about, man, is you're talking about like, uh, because you strip away the physical component.

• 1:54:31Speaker 05

  You strip away the physical components, another stream equivalency, right? So I, I, I think someone's probably going to crush me for this statistic, but I believe it's a hundred thousand streams to count for one physical sale of the album.

• 1:54:48Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:48Speaker 05

  So a songs, over the aggregate of the entire album, every hundred thousand streams equates for you paying twelve ninety nine for the CD.

• 1:54:58Steven Rinella?

  So it went from twelve, twelve listens used to rack up a sale, now it's.

• 1:55:02Speaker 04

  I've got a long way to go.

• 1:55:05Speaker 05

  But I think the wild thing is.

• 1:55:07Steven Rinella?

  You haven't sold a record yet, Chester.

• 1:55:09Speaker 05

  Here's where you get to, here's where you get to, you know, the question of, okay, so now it's like, when you think about it that way, if every hundred thousand spins is a record sale, right? Well, if I put out a record that has twelve songs on it, and it still takes a hundred thousand spins to get a sale, or if I put a record out with thirty nine or forty songs on it.

• 1:55:38Speaker 05

  I'm gonna get a lot more, I'm gonna get a lot more listens.

• 1:55:40Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 1:55:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, makes sense. And I'm gonna sell more, more albums, you know? There may be the same amount of hits on the forty song record as there is the twelve song record.

• 1:55:54Speaker 05

  But the forty song record is gonna sell more just because more streams are, people are consuming all forty songs as opposed to twelve. Casting a wider net. Casting a wider net, right? So it's a, it's a brilliant strategy. You know, but it's a strategy.

• 1:56:09Steven Rinella?

  Dude, I'm somehow like, I'm like oblivious to this, man.

• 1:56:12Speaker 05

  And it's like.

• 1:56:12Steven Rinella?

  It's kind of demonstrates my age, because I remember, like you said, like I just like, came of age during the time when you, uh, came of age during the time when you.

• 1:56:22Speaker 05

  Just bought.

• 1:56:23Steven Rinella?

  Like when people like operated that way. You know, so I always tell people it's so funny, man. I remember being in speech and debate in college, like my third year of college. I was in a speech and debate class. And I'm not shitting you. This is like, I remember a kid doing his, he had to do a persuasive speech. You know what his persuasive speech was?

• 1:56:40Speaker 05

  What?

• 1:56:41Steven Rinella?

  That you should give up on cassette tapes and switch to CDs.

• 1:56:45Speaker 05

  He was right. That bastard was right, dude.

• 1:56:49Steven Rinella?

  For me to be like, how many songs around an album? You could kind of tell, like, you gotta date me, because like, yeah, I just think of it as being, you know, like an album's like ten, twelve songs.

• 1:56:57Speaker 05

  Well, I wondered too, like, I, and I'm, again, I'll probably get roasted on this one too, but I'm not certain, at least that there wasn't previously, to my knowledge, a really a cap on it. Like, there isn't a cap on it. And to some extent, that will become an issue.

• 1:57:16Speaker 05

  Because what if I put out a song with a hu- a, a record with a hundred songs on it? Is that still one album?

• 1:57:21Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:22Speaker 05

  Like, where does it end? Like, there has to be.

• 1:57:24Steven Rinella?

  Like, yeah, because you'll hit the most streamed albums. Someone be like, dude, because there's two hundred songs on some bitch.

• 1:57:29Speaker 05

  Exactly, exactly right. But, and it's like, you can't slide anyone that's doing it. Because it's, you're, you're just, you've figured out how to play the game the best. Right? It's no different with than like the wildlife regulations to some extent.

• 1:57:47Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:47Speaker 05

  It's like you're talking about the bear hunt, right? It's like everybody did the, we just did the thing and we did it really good and we did it too good and oops.

• 1:57:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:56Speaker 05

  But like, right now, we're just kind of in such a like, it's such like international waters with like the streaming thing, cause all the litigation and policies are like super outdated. From payouts to streams to converting those to sales, like they just haven't figured out how to like

• 1:58:17Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:17Speaker 05

  quite make it line up yet, because it's all still so new to everyone. You know, and so now people are doing, you know, are doing, they're playing the version of the game that's best suited for where we stand right now, because nobody's like, hey, you shouldn't do that. No one said you can only have 24 songs on an album, so why not put 40?

• 1:58:40Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:41Speaker 05

  Or why not put 45? Or why not put 50? Or why not put 75? I, I don't know. I mean, I, I don't know. That's the thing is like, will there ever be an end to it or won't there be? I don't know if we'll ever know the answer to that, but I would think at some point there kind of would have to be. You know? There's a point where you're gonna burn out the consumer too. Like if you put out a hundred song record, people are gonna be like, how do I even listen to this?

• 1:59:06Speaker 06

  Who makes that decision?

• 1:59:08Speaker 05

  The, I mean, the artist usually.

• 1:59:10Speaker 06

  Like, no, like it, if there was to be a cap put on it.

• 1:59:15Speaker 05

  I mean, sometimes it's the government. I mean, sometimes it's the streaming services. Sometimes it's the labels. I mean, there's all sorts of, you know, there's lobbyists like there is for anything else, right? You know?

• 1:59:25Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:59:25Speaker 05

  People getting together and going, well, I think there should only be, you know,

• 1:59:30Speaker 05

  should only be 12 songs on a record. That should be it.

• 1:59:32Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:33Speaker 05

  And I don't know, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not smart enough to know that stuff. I don't, I don't claim to, but.

• 1:59:37Steven Rinella?

  You know what winds up being a governing function? Now we're losing another extreme of the listeners now.

• 1:59:44Speaker 05

  We're going down.

• 1:59:45Steven Rinella?

  The guys that were way into Turkey.

• 1:59:48Speaker 05

  They're like, what are we talking about?

• 1:59:49Steven Rinella?

  You know, the, the, the publishing and record business is not interesting to me.

• 1:59:52Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:59:53Steven Rinella?

  But remember I was, you were talking about the, you were talking about this, like what Grammys mean, right?

• 2:00:00Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:00:00Steven Rinella?

  How that system works. And I was telling you another system that's just not the way people think it is, is the New York Times bestseller list.

• 2:00:08Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:00:09Steven Rinella?

  And, and I've like benefited from it and I've been screwed by it, but it's,

• 2:00:11Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 2:00:12Steven Rinella?

  It is not a count up of what soul, it is not a representation of what sold best.

• 2:00:20Speaker 05

  Right, correct.

• 2:00:20Steven Rinella?

  There's all these value judgments. Based in.

• 2:00:23Speaker 05

  Weighted, like weighted scoring and stuff.

• 2:00:26Steven Rinella?

  Weighted scoring, um, directional value judgments.

• 2:00:32Steven Rinella?

  Vengeance. Uh, uh, on the part of like traditional media, vengeance against new media.

• 2:00:40Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:00:41Steven Rinella?

  Right? Like levels of hate, levels of animosity between, uh, you know,

• 2:00:49Steven Rinella?

  one world and then, and then like online booksellers.

• 2:00:53Speaker 05

  Right. It's like pseudo-politics. It is like really like it's its own political thing. It's very intricate.

• 2:01:00Steven Rinella?

  Yo.

• 2:01:00Speaker 05

  You know, but unless you're in that business, you know, from the outside looking in, you just have no clue, you know?

• 2:01:05Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. And when you talk about a governing, like who would govern it or Seth asking like, well, who would ever say what's okay or not okay?

• 2:01:15Steven Rinella?

  The list still ma, like the New York Times bestseller list still matters. And you can have it be like, well, why, why not just do whatever you want when it comes to publishing?

• 2:01:26Steven Rinella?

  You need to approach certain projects. If you want to make that list and benefit from being on that list, you need to approach projects in a certain way. To hit like, so is a, is a book, is an audio book, what they regard to be an audio book? Or is it something different? Right? So you go like, well, why would you ever need to conform to a certain protocol? Is you can get too far outside of the lines. And then, and then these, these independent parties that legally, obviously they can do whatever they want. It's that they, they invented the list. You can do things that put you not

• 2:02:05Steven Rinella?

  able to be captured.

• 2:02:08Steven Rinella?

  By the list and it's good to be on the list because if you get on the list, people, other bookstores order the book.

• 2:02:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:02:16Steven Rinella?

  Right. It gets traction.

• 2:02:17Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 2:02:18Steven Rinella?

  And so you could go too far out there in some direction, like format wise, or how you sell it, how you distribute it, and you get it where you're no longer relevant to that thing and that thing matters. So it winds up being like a little bit of a gravitational pull.

• 2:02:32Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:02:32Steven Rinella?

  To be like, to conform to some set, you know, industry standard. And you're saying like, if you made an album that has 200 songs on it, um, some body like that might say, that's not an album. I don't know what that is, but that's not an album.

• 2:02:49Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:02:49Steven Rinella?

  And you're not, that's not eligible to win album of the year because it's not.

• 2:02:53Speaker 05

  I guess what I'm saying is that that set of rules doesn't exist currently.

• 2:02:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:57Speaker 05

  Is what I'm saying. There is no, right now. So you've got people like, kind of forming the rules and, you know, and I mean, ultimately it's up to the fans, dude.

• 2:03:09Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:10Speaker 05

  I mean, ultimately whatever resonates with them is what people are gonna listen to. You know what I mean? So, um, it's really, it's really interesting, you know, it's like, it's, it's interesting how all that stuff works, you know, and the record business is wild, you know, music business is wild. There's so many intricacies. Sure, like the publishing world is just, there's so many things that you would never think of.

• 2:03:30Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:31Speaker 05

  You know, from outside perspectives, you write a good book and then just put it out and that's the, then it's a good book and people like it. But it's not that, it's not that simple. And record business is like that as well. You know what I mean? Like, then I think the record business-

• 2:03:45Steven Rinella?

  I have found that you can get around that, but there's just a lot of other stuff laid on top of it.

• 2:03:49Speaker 05

  Right. Yes, exactly. Record business is the same way. You know, great records will, you know, ultimately people will discover and listen to them.

• 2:03:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:57Speaker 05

  You know what I mean? A great record's a great record. And, you know, that's, it's all, it's all subjective too, right? Like, what, what do people like, right? A great record, great country record. Some people are gonna hate it because they just don't like country music, you know? A great record's a great record and you can just tell, you know? And I'm sure books are, are no different.

• 2:04:16Steven Rinella?

  Would be an interesting number, set of numbers, two numbers would be like, what percent of great records aren't recognized? And what percent of shitty records are over recognized?

• 2:04:30Speaker 05

  Sure, there's some of that. I'm sure there's some of that for sure.

• 2:04:34Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:34Speaker 05

  But then it's like those, if those, if those quote unquote shitty records are huge, are they just shitty records to you?

• 2:04:42Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:04:44Speaker 05

  Someone else, they're great records. It's highly subjective. Same with books, right? Like, I'm sure there's all these incredibly underappreciated books out there that, you know, if you're, you know, if you're a literary guy, that you're like, well, you have to, how do you not know that book? You know, I'm sure there's those, right?

• 2:05:03Steven Rinella?

  You know, um, there was someone, we gotta, we gotta wrap this up and get some stuff getting outside. But do you remember, do you remember the musician? He's from a while ago, but do you remember the musician Elvis Costello?

• 2:05:13Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 2:05:14Steven Rinella?

  Okay. I remember, I think it was, I swear it was like David Lee Roth or someone that said this. But he was like, like Elvis Costello was always like a critical favorite.

• 2:05:25Steven Rinella?

  Like critics always loved his albums. And David Lee Roth was observing that. But rock critics all look like Elvis Costello.

• 2:05:35Steven Rinella?

  So the level of bias.

• 2:05:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:05:39Steven Rinella?

  They all got the same style, you know?

• 2:05:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:05:41Steven Rinella?

  Like Elvis Costello, like had those big like glasses and stuff. He's like, yeah, but they like him because they look at him like that some bitch looks like me.

• 2:05:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:05:51Speaker 05

  Yeah. It's like, uh, it's like, it's an album like made for those kind of guys.

• 2:05:55Steven Rinella?

  Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Like made for the dudes that write articles about albums. There's a lot of dudes that just listen to them.

• 2:06:02Speaker 05

  Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

• 2:06:04Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. All right. Well, Luke, thanks for coming on the show as usual, man.

• 2:06:08Speaker 05

  Absolutely. Thanks for having me, guys.

• 2:06:10Steven Rinella?

  Appreciate all that, but I especially appreciate what you, uh, what you shared about, what you shared about raising kids.

• 2:06:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:06:18Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you this thing, this dude I know in New York, he's a, he'd spent his career working in family law, like the kind of family law of families breaking up.

• 2:06:30Speaker 05

  Sure. That's tough business.

• 2:06:32Steven Rinella?

  And, um, he probably doesn't even remember telling me this. It was so long ago. And when he told me this, I didn't even have kids, but it stuck in my head. He was just talking about all the awful things that he's encountered in his career, you know, of like dissolving families.

• 2:06:45Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 2:06:46Steven Rinella?

  Custody battles and stuff. And we were somehow talking about

• 2:06:52Steven Rinella?

  things that screw kids up. And he said, so speaking from a level of expertise, he said, I'll tell you the one thing that screws them up is the day they figure out that no one gives a shit about them.

• 2:07:06Speaker 05

  Oh.

• 2:07:06Steven Rinella?

  And he's like, that is the thing.

• 2:07:09Speaker 05

  Oh, man.

• 2:07:10Steven Rinella?

  More than any other thing.

• 2:07:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:07:11Steven Rinella?

  You know? And what better to bring that out than a

• 2:07:16Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:07:17Steven Rinella?

  Splitting up parents who are not trying to suck them in, but splitting up parents who are trying to

• 2:07:21Speaker 05

  Get the other

• 2:07:22Steven Rinella?

  Get clear.

• 2:07:22Speaker 05

  Take them.

• 2:07:23Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:23Speaker 05

  It's like, oh.

• 2:07:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Get like parent, imagine that when you put together, like talking about how perceptive kids are when you put together like, hold on a minute, wait a minute.

• 2:07:31Speaker 05

  They're both trying to give me the other one.

• 2:07:33Steven Rinella?

  Pull away.

• 2:07:34Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:07:34Steven Rinella?

  And not come in.

• 2:07:35Speaker 05

  Right.

• 2:07:36Steven Rinella?

  You know, you'd picture, you'd want to be in there, your parents throwing punches trying to get you.

• 2:07:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:07:41Steven Rinella?

  It's probably not great either.

• 2:07:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, probably not. Yeah, probably not healthy, but. Legal punches, dude. Throwing legal punches. Yeah.

• 2:07:49Steven Rinella?

  All right. Well, thanks for coming on, man.

• 2:07:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:08:18Steven Rinella?

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• 2:08:59Steven Rinella?

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• 2:09:55Steven Rinella?

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• 2:10:38Steven Rinella?

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• 2:10:48Speaker 00

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