Pod Insights The MeatEater Podcast Ep. 680: Blood Trails - A Turkey Woods Cold Case About this episode Welcome to Blood Trails, MeatEater's first venture into true crime. Follow our very own Jordan Sillars https://www.themeateater.com/people/jordan-sillars as he investigates an unsolved murder that took place over 20 years ago in the turkey woods of Virginia.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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2:03 Speaker 03 In 2003, 44-year-old David Stack had everything a guy could want: A loving family, a successful construction business, and his own piece of wilderness: A sprawling 190 acres in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley. A place where he could disappear into the woods, hunt turkeys and deer, or just relax, and enjoy the sounds of cicadas and cardinals. It was a place he should have been safe.
2:40 Speaker 03 David, his son Brian, and his brother Jeff were excited to hunt turkeys on opening day, April 12. They'd scouted the night before. They knew where the birds would be, and at 5:30 a.m., they split up, each heading to their own pre-planned spots.
2:57 Speaker 03 Then... A gunshot.
3:03 Speaker 03 Jeff heard it first. Too early, too close. Something about it didn't feel right.
3:09 Speaker 04 It was still dark. I don't think it was legal shooting, and I heard a gunshot. And as best as I can tell, it came from over near where Dave was. And I said to myself, "Damn, Dave, I don't think that was a legal shot."
3:25 Speaker 03 Brian heard shots too, but the wind was up. The sound bounced around the hills and trees. He couldn't be sure where it had come from, so he shook it off.
3:38 Speaker 04 I dozed off, and woke up to birds in my decoys. I could hear them out there spitting and drumming. And that was actually my first gobbler. You know, I shot the bird that morning. I think it was 8:50, 9 o'clock, somewhere in there. And, you know, I was excited, fired up. And, you know, I got my stuff together and was heading back to the cabin. I wanted to show it off.
4:03 Speaker 03 But David never came back. No texts, no radio calls, nothing. By noon, concern turned to unease. By 4 p.m., unease became fear.
4:17 Speaker 04 Eventually, we started, you know, just whistling and calling, trying to, you know, get some kind of response.
4:24 Speaker 05 And this went on until, shoot, probably, you know, four o'clock. And then we really started getting worried. It turned from, you know, worried to panic.
4:32 Speaker 03 They searched the woods, called his name. Nothing. By nightfall, the search intensified. Neighbors, state troopers, a helicopter circling overhead. But still, no sign of David. Then, early the next morning, they found him.
4:56 Speaker 04 I saw the turkey decoys. At first, I thought it was turkey, but they were decoys. And then there was turkeys in the trees, right above them, that we spooked or jumped, or whatever you want to call them. And they flew out of the trees. And that's about the time I then saw Dave laying on his back. I did not, you know, because I was very emotional. And, uh, anyway, I checked. I think I checked the pulse. But it was obvious he was dead.
5:34 Speaker 03 And the way his body was found, something was off. Kenny Graff, a close friend of David's, was there when they pulled his body from the woods after the crime scene had been processed. He'd been in law enforcement for nearly two decades. He knew what an accident looked like, and this was not that.
5:56 Speaker 04 And we go to pick him up, and there's blood on my hands. We rolled him over to one side, and he's got a bullet hole in his back. So that's when they say, "Something's not right. This isn't an accidental death."
6:11 Speaker 03 A bullet hole in his back. No sign of a struggle, his gun untouched, his sandwich still in his vest.
6:19 Speaker 04 We get him out, and I mean, I'm just, as an human being, I'm just struggling. I mean, I am fucking struggling. It's a bitch carrying your best friend out of the dead body out of the woods. You know what I mean? It's just no fun at all.
6:38 Speaker 03 But what stood out the most? The face mask, pulled up, and a single cigarette butt lying next to him.
6:47 Speaker 06 If you're familiar with the turkey hunt, which I'm sure you are, you know, you wear the full face mask and this and that for the spring job where to keep the reflection off your face and stuff. Dave's was pulled all the way back over top of his head.
7:01 Speaker 03 As if someone had pulled it up to see his face. For 20 years, no one has answered the one question that matters most: Who pulled that trigger? The Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources says the case is still open, but in all these years, no suspects have been named, no grand jury has been convened, no arrests have been made. Kenny, Jeff, and Brian believe the shooter knew exactly what they had done. They stood over David, looked at him, and walked away. But why? Was it a mistake?
7:45 Speaker 03 A moment of panic? Or was it something worse? I'm Jordan Sillars, and this is Blood Trails: A Turkey Woods Cold Case. Part One: The Crime Scene. Jeff, Brian, and Kenny all saw the crime scene, but their descriptions don't always match up. Here's Kenny.
8:16 Speaker 06 You can see where Dave cleared out a little spot to sit by a tree. He had a decoy set up. His gun was leaning against the tree. And he's just laying on his back. And I noticed there was a cigarette butt put out, right there. Now, Dave did smoke once in a while, and he had part of a pack in his backpack. But this brand that was on the ground was a different brand than what Dave smoked.
8:42 Speaker 03 Kenny was a detective for 19 years with the Metropolitan Washington Airport's Authority. He told me he's worked drug and homicide cases with other federal agencies, so he's the kind of guy who might notice the brand name of a cigarette butt lying on the ground. Brian and Jeff don't remember anything about the cigarette butt. Brian remembers the shotgun leaning against the tree, and they both agree that someone had walked up to the body. Here's Brian.
9:08 Speaker 05 He was laying away from the tree somewhat. His face mask was pulled down, his glasses were pushed up.
9:16 Speaker 05 His sandwich was still in his vest.
9:20 Speaker 05 The decoys were only like, uh,
9:23 Speaker 05 like fifteen yards, sixteen yards from him, which is unusual. So I don't think that was his location. I don't know if that's where he was setting up or what, but it definitely seemed unusual with how close he was to the decoys, with a gun sitting against the tree there.
9:38 Speaker 05 And, you know, how his face mask was pulled down, the glasses were up.
9:45 Speaker 03 Those glasses are more important than they might sound. David's wife, Tammy, didn't see the crime scene herself, but her knowledge of her husband gave her an important insight into what those glasses might indicate.
9:58 Speaker 07 They said his glasses were up, like he had pushed his glasses up on top of his head, and he would never, ever, ever do that. He would take them off and hang them from a shirt or take them off and set them someplace. He couldn't stand having them up on his head.
10:16 Speaker 07 Just, I just, I just have this gut feeling that whoever did it knows that they did it.
10:23 Speaker 03 I reached out to the Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources to confirm some of these details, but they refused, citing the ongoing investigation. Fortunately for us, the agency hasn't always been so tight-lipped. The incident gained tons of local media attention after it happened, and one of the best reports came in a May 3rd edition of the Roanoke Times. Here's what the Virginia DWR, then called the Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, told reporters in the weeks following the murder. "The shooting occurred on a property near the Sawville Hill section of Rockbridge County, between South Buffalo Road and Bluegrass Trail.
11:03 Speaker 03 David was likely leaning against a tree when he got shot. The bullet entered his body from behind, cut his aorta, and lodged in his heart."
11:14 Speaker 03 The terrain and angle at which the bullet struck David indicate that the shooter fired at close range and would have been able to tell what he'd hit. The hill and brush in the area would have kept the bullet from traveling very far. Kenny told me that the bullet itself came from a .22 caliber centerfire cartridge, such as a .223 Remington, .222 Remington, or .22250. I wasn't able to find any contemporaneous media reports with this information, and the DWR refused to name the kind of bullet that killed David. But I did speak with one of the neighbors, a man named James Leva, who still owns one of the adjacent properties.
11:57 Speaker 03 He declined to be recorded for this podcast, but he told me he was also turkey hunting the morning David was killed. Gay Mordens knocked on his door in the weeks after the incident and asked if he owned any rifles chambered in a centerfire .22 caliber cartridge. He did. In fact, he said he hunts turkeys during the fall season with a rifle chambered in .22 Hornet, but he was hunting with a shotgun on the morning of the incident. Gay Mordens apparently believed his story because, according to Leva, they sent his rifle to Richmond for ballistics testing and returned it about a month later. Whatever they found, it either didn't point to Leva or was inconclusive. But this suggests, at least at the time, investigators believe David was killed with a centerfire .22.
12:41 Speaker 03 Many states do not allow turkey hunters to use rifles, but Virginia is not one of them. To this day, the only restriction they put on a turkey hunter's gun is that during the spring season, they cannot use shot larger than number two. Kenny, Jeff, and Brian all agree that the shooting was most likely an accident. They don't recall David having any ongoing conflicts with anyone or any of the neighbors being upset about the recent purchase of the land. Here's Brian.
13:10 Speaker 05 My hunch is it's either a young hunter inexperienced or older hunter that had poor vision. I don't think it's anything of malice, you know, done it on purpose, but I don't know.
13:32 Speaker 03 Part 2. The Neighbors.
13:36 Speaker 03 Cases like this are difficult to investigate. There are no witnesses, and what physical evidence exists is hard to find in the leaves and dirt. But, if you're like me, your first thought goes to the neighbors. It's easy to imagine. A neighboring property owner wanders onto the Stack's land, sees what he thinks is a turkey in the dimness of the morning, and pulls the trigger. That's where Kenny's mind went to, even before his friend's body had been found. While the rest of the Stack family was still searching the woods, he paid a visit to the neighbors.
14:13 Speaker 06 At daylight, the next morning, which was the 13th, April 13th, I'm thinking, "Well, maybe the neighbors know something."
14:23 Speaker 03 Kenny told me the names of the people who lived there, but we're going to bleep them out. None of them still live on those properties, as far as I've been able to tell, and the Virginia DWR has never named an official suspect. You'll see why that's relevant here in a minute. The first house Kenny visited belonged to someone we'll call Johnson.
14:43 Speaker 06 We had met him the previous fall, because he came over, he was looking for his dog.
14:49 Speaker 06 And we talked to him a little bit. He says, "I don't hunt, I don't allow no hunt." I go to his house, played to him again who I was, and I was looking for David, wondered if he'd heard or seen anything. He said, "No." And I remember thinking, when I was standing in his house, he's got all these turkey mounts and deer mounts. And I'm thinking, "I thought this guy told me he didn't hunt." I said, "Huh." I didn't say anything about it then, but he pulls out a map, and this could be coincidence, don't get me wrong, this could be coincidence. But he pulls out a map, and he points at the map, and he says, "There's the property line where his property joins Dave's property."
15:34 Speaker 06 He says, "You should look right in this area here. You should look right in this area here."
15:38 Speaker 03 Remember, Kenny spoke to Johnson before they'd found David's body. So, I asked Kenny what you're thinking. Was the spot he pointed to the same spot they eventually found David?
15:51 Speaker 06 It was within feet, within feet. Know what I mean?
15:56 Speaker 03 Kenny admits that this could be explained in a non-nefarious way. Johnson wouldn't be the first hunter to hide the fact that he's a hunter, and it doesn't make much sense to lead investigators to the person you just murdered the day before. Still, it's weird. But Kenny's interactions with the neighbors got even stranger. Kenny stopped by another house, where an elderly man told him that while he doesn't hunt, one of his friends had been hunting on the morning David was killed. We'll call this friend, Smith. Smith lived down the road, so Kenny knocked on the door. But nobody answered. Kenny left a message on Smith's answering machine, using the phone number the elderly neighbor had given him.
16:39 Speaker 03 Kenny went back to the Stacks' cabin, and the phone rang. The woman on the line claimed to be Smith's wife.
16:47 Speaker 06 She says, "Bleep, uh, doesn't know anything, bleep, didn't see anything, bleep, didn't hunt." And I said, "Well, bleep told me he was hunting, bleep told me his truck was parked at his house." "Oh yeah, well, he hunted the opposite side of the road." And I'm thinking to myself, "How do you know what side of the road David was on? You know what I mean? How do you know what side of the road I'm talking about?"
17:14 Speaker 03 Kenny didn't think too much about it at the time, and David's body was found not long after. But that's not the last he heard of Smith.
17:24 Speaker 03 A year or two after David's death, Jeff was walking the property, and he found something. Something very out of place, in the woods.
17:35 Speaker 06 I found a pill bundle with bleep.
17:39 Speaker 04 Name on it, it was right on the property line. It was a prescription for one of, you know, one of these common kind of antidepressant types. It was empty.
17:51 Speaker 03 Jeff said the place he found the bottle near the property line would have been less than a 10-minute walk from where they found David's body. He sent the bottle to the lead investigator on the case at the time, but never heard anything more. The investigator has since passed away, and Kenny says they haven't heard anything from the DWR for years. The shooter could have been a neighbor, but it also could have been someone who didn't live in the area. That would make the culprit even more difficult to find, and it would help explain how this case has gone unsolved. Neither Jeff, Kenny, or Brian ever mentioned having a problem with trespassers, but Kenny did mention one alternative theory.
18:33 Speaker 03 One of the original DWR investigators on this case, a guy named Stephen Pike, knew a producer on the television show, America's Most Wanted. He wanted to give this case as much exposure as possible, so he asked the producer for a favor. It wasn't the kind of story the program usually covered, but they decided to do it anyway. The segment aired on November 1st, 2003, in episode 737 of the show. Younger listeners might not remember, but America's Most Wanted was a hit show back in the day. At the time of its cancellation by the Fox Television Network in June 2011, its 24-season run made it the longest-running program in the network's history, and each episode was
19:17 Speaker 03 watched by thousands. The point is, including David's story on AMW, as its fans call it, would have exposed the case to a huge audience. The segment on David ended with an appeal to that audience for tips. We don't know exactly what kind of information came in, but Kenny claims that two tips came in from people in Rockbridge County, one of which pointed back to Johnson.
19:41 Speaker 04 The second tip says, "You should talk to..."
19:47 Speaker 06 He has a hunting camp and he has, he had hunters there that morning and they left that morning.
19:53 Speaker 03 Kenny claims that Johnson was running an illegal hunting camp. An investigator spoke with several of the people who had hunted that morning.
20:00 Speaker 06 They talked to a couple of people that were there that morning, but had left around 10 o'clock. And I'm thinking to myself, it's opening day of spring gobbler season. Why do you leave at 10 a.m. and go home?
20:16 Speaker 03 It's a good question. David may have been killed not by a neighbor, but by someone who didn't live in the area. That person could have been hunting legally, or it could have been a poacher. In either case, the randomness of that scenario could make it even more likely that David's killer is never found.
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22:46 Speaker 03 Part Three, the DWR.
22:51 Speaker 03 The Virginia Department of Wildlife Resources says this case is still considered active. Special agents are currently assigned and they said in an email that, quote, "Recent investigative measures and evidence examinations have been explored." They've digitized the case files and they're collaborating with Virginia State Police to have the case added to the state cold case database. So someone is working on it. How much they're working on it is a different question. Kenny says he hasn't heard from the agency in the last four or five years. In the meantime, his frustration has only increased.
23:32 Speaker 06 We had a very hard time for years just getting them to communicate with us and talk to us. I don't want to say these guys screwed up, but somebody screwed up. And it's a shame, it really is. Having been a law enforcement officer myself for 25 years, I don't understand to this day why this case wasn't solved within a few days. I really don't.
23:53 Speaker 03 Kenny believes the agency failed to collect all the evidence at the scene and they failed to investigate the neighbors closely enough, specifically Johnson and Smith. Remember that cigarette butt I mentioned at the beginning of the episode? The one that, according to Kenny, was a different brand than the one David smoked?
24:13 Speaker 06 Believe it or not, they didn't collect it. The police did not collect it. I was assuming they collected it. And then a few months later, I talked to, I was talking to DNR and I said, well, what about the cigarette butt? And they're like, what cigarette butt?
24:28 Speaker 03 It's possible Kenny was mistaken and that the cigarette butt was actually David's. It's also possible whoever Kenny asked didn't know or was lying. Or it's possible Kenny just made the whole thing up. But whatever the truth is, the DWR isn't saying. I filed a public records request asking for documents related to this case. The agency responded and said that while they have 110 pages of files, they can't release any because they're part of an ongoing criminal investigation. Fair enough. Then on June 7th, 2024, I sent an email to the agency's public information department and asked to interview the agent in charge of the case.
25:13 Speaker 03 The agency initially agreed to an interview, but wanted to see and approve any questions prior to the interview being recorded. So I sent a list of questions on July 3rd, 2024, asking about everything you've heard in this episode. Cigarette butt, pill bottle, Johnson and Smith. I even asked for the agency to confirm a few of the details that they had shared with the media in 2003. Things like how far away the shooter was and whether he likely knew what he'd done. On November 15th, 2024, which was, for those counting, over four months after I'd sent the list of questions, the DWR backed out of the phone interview they'd previously agreed to. Why? Well, here's what they said.
25:58 Speaker 03 "Out of an abundance of caution, to protect the integrity of the investigation, the department will not be available for any in-person interviews or discussions." Instead, they responded to my list of questions with typed answers, but they refused to share any details of the case beyond when and where it happened. They said, quoting again, "DWR conservation police officers spent a considerable amount of time and effort to identify the person responsible for Mr. Stack's death and followed all leads that were provided and developed through the course of the investigation." "Specifics about their investigation are not available due to this being an open investigation."
26:40 Speaker 03 The only new piece of information they offered was about whether they ever identified a suspect. They said, quote, "Several persons of interest have been identified. These persons have been interviewed and declined a polygraph." Whoever those people were, the agency didn't gather enough information to make an arrest. Part Four: An Expert's Opinion. I don't know about you, but I have more questions than answers about this case. I frankly don't understand why the Virginia DWR hasn't been more helpful.
27:23 Speaker 03 I wonder how investigators knew what kind of bullet killed David, and I wonder whether they used every investigative technique at their disposal. To help answer some of these questions, I call up my buddy and Meat Eater's own Brent Reeves. You know Brent as the host of This Country Life, where he dispenses down-home wisdom in a deep and melodious baritone. But Brent wasn't always a world-famous podcast host. In a previous life, he served for 32 years as a law enforcement agent in Arkansas. He's investigated homicide cases himself, so I knew he'd be the perfect person to help us break down this case.
28:01 Speaker 03 Brent, thanks for being here.
28:11 Speaker 04 Yeah, man. Thank you for inviting me on here.
28:14 Speaker 03 So, I know that you were in law enforcement for a long time, but could you fill in some of those details? What agencies did you work for and what kinds of things did you do?
28:23 Speaker 04 Well, I was a police officer, a law enforcement officer, for 32 years and seven months. The first two-thirds of my career, I was actually doing police work, what people think of as police work. Answering calls, working accidents, investigating robberies and thefts, crimes, including homicides. And with a large portion of that, my career was dedicated to undercover narcotics, narcotics investigations. But when homicides would occur, especially in a department limited by manpower, and I'm talking about in the biggest department I worked in in South Arkansas.
29:09 Speaker 04 I think we had probably forty, maybe forty deputies, sworn officers that were working every day. And they would bring the whole CID investigation division into work a homicide. Which, over the course of my career, you know, probably forty-five, fifty homicides during that, during that length of time.
29:39 Speaker 03 So if, if you were assigned this case back in two thousand and three, I'm curious what the first steps are. On the first, in the first few days, first few weeks, what kinds of strategies would you use to try to figure out who, who did this?
29:55 Speaker 04 Well, you know, the, the crime scene, that's, that's important. And limiting a crime scene, the parameters of where you're operating is important. Anytime that you're working with something outdoor, especially like this, and even add the fact that someone died as a result of a rifle shot, you're, there's no telling how big your crime scene is. The cards are stacked against you to begin with in something like this. So as, as large a perimeter as you can gather, or as that you can secure.
30:35 Speaker 04 And then it's just the meticulous going through everything that is
30:44 Speaker 04 conceivably close to where the, the incident occurred. Just because there's, there's two places here that, that are important.
30:54 Speaker 04 Where the shot was fired from, and obviously where the shot was fired to, which, you know, caused the, the death of the man. So.
31:05 Speaker 04 And in doing so, anytime that you approach or leave a crime scene, you take something in and you take something out unwittingly. You're stepping on leaves, you're making tracks, you're sweating, you're dropping DNA. There is, there's so many things to consider that could either help or hinder the investigation. You know, somebody, maybe you stepped on something you didn't see. A hole or a track or in this case, a cigarette butt. I think that was a kind of a controversial part of what people saw there. So there's to answer your question, how would I approach it?
31:48 Speaker 04 You have to build as big a perimeter as you can and slowly work your way from the outside in.
31:56 Speaker 03 And then, so, so once you've done that with the crime scene, would you then be canvassing the neighbors and seeing if they saw anything or heard anything?
32:06 Speaker 04 Absolutely. I mean, you've got to talk to, you've got to run out every conceivable pathway. Even if it's talking to the garbage man that's, or the mail carrier, anybody that makes a regularly route through there.
32:25 Speaker 04 Along with neighbors, anybody within earshot, anybody within
32:31 Speaker 04 reason
32:33 Speaker 04 that could have possibly saw something that morning that stood out of place or saw something that wasn't out of place, but just saw something. You've got to exhaust every available opportunity to gather information as quick as possible. There was a, an old TV show, the first 48. It was called, I think it was on A and E. And we were, we had a homicide that I worked, it actually was the focus of that. And it's, it's true, the first 48 hours are usually the most critical, especially in something that's outside, outdoors, that's you're affected by all kinds of environment, environmental conditions.
33:17 Speaker 04 Rain, wind, temperatures, whatever. Like I said at the beginning, the deck is stacked against you from the get go. When you're dealing with anything outside and time is absolutely a crucial factor in finding the, the correct path that you need to go from there to lead to where, you know, the suspect is.
33:39 Speaker 03 So I know you haven't seen the, the files on this case. I haven't seen the files on this case either, but just based on what you know from what I've been told, you've listened to the podcast, what jumps out at you about this case, about the crime scene, about the investigation, anything kind of seem out of the ordinary?
34:01 Speaker 04 The magnitude of it is what jumps out at me. It's just the magnitude of the, of the size of the crime scene. There's a lot to take in there. There's a lot, a lot to look at and that to me through this whole thing has been, I guess, one of the key features. Another one being unfortunately, the, the gentleman was found by his friends and you, you put a motion into testimony, you put a motion into the things that were seen and observed and, and sometimes it affects what was saw. Now, I, I should have said this
34:43 Speaker 04 at the very beginning and my heart goes out to the gentleman's family and his friends. But unfortunately, and I've said this before and it is a proven fact, that if you want two different eyewitnesses or two different statements to the same thing, get two eyewitnesses to it because the other, because people observe and look at different things, different things stand out to them. It's not saying that they're wrong, but if you've got two people that saw the exact same thing. And when they write their statement, they're word for word, verbatim, what's going on,
35:22 Speaker 04 or what supposedly happened, that it sometimes that would lead one to believe that the statements were manufactured before we got there. This, this obviously was not there. That, that was not in this case at all. But different people see different things. And some people, you know, there's confirmation bias and everything. And you just have to be very careful about taking statements from people who are emotionally and physically and mentally involved with something and running out a line of questions to those folks to make sure that they saw what they saw. Give them every opportunity to prove
36:03 Speaker 04 what they saw. The face mask was something that stood out in the interior of this crime is how the gentleman's turkey mask was pulled up and his face was exposed.
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37:41 Steven Rinella? Visit weatherTech.com for your holiday shopping today. You need credit to buy, well, pretty much any big thing. So how do you get started? Easy. The One Pay Builder Card. It's simple and smart. One Pay is the banking app trusted by millions of Americans, and the One Pay Builder Card is an easy way to build credit. Just use it to make everyday purchases, build your credit history, and then you can work up to the big milestones, buying a new car or a new house. Or hell, maybe something I'm always thinking about, which is another boat. Those moments start with small, consistent steps with the One Pay Builder Card. Download the One Pay app or visit onepay.com
38:27 Steven Rinella? for banking that gives you more for what matters.
38:30 Speaker 04 One Pay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Builder Card results may vary and aren't guaranteed. Learn more about banking through One Pay at onepay.com/podcast.
38:46 Speaker 04 I want to thank, if I remember you correct me if I'm wrong, Jordan, that was what led folks to believe that the shooter had approached the person and to identify him. Is that, am I correct in that assumption?
38:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, there was a face mask. And then also David's wife, Tammy, said that
39:06 Speaker 04 Glasses?
39:06 Speaker 03 His glasses, yeah. And she said he never did that. He hated having his glasses kind of pushed up on his face. So yeah, those are the two things that made people think someone had done that to see his face.
39:18 Speaker 04 Okay. I'm not going to say that that didn't happen.
39:24 Speaker 04 I'm also gonna say that there's reasonable doubt that that was done. I can't tell you how many times I have left my truck going to a spot to turkey hunt, knowing where I was gonna sit down and put my decoys out before daylight and getting completely ready and camoed up before I shut the door of my truck with my turkey mask flipped over on the top of my head and walk into where I'm going. You know, a turkey mask, it's got holes in it, you can see out of it, but when it's dim outside or dark, it's absolutely in the way and hinders your peripheral vision. So there's reasonable doubt.
40:07 Speaker 04 There's, there's a reason to think that just because that was done, there's got to be other factors in there that prove that that was correct. It's not a bad theory by any means, but it's also not, you know, a hundred percent. The glasses on top of his head.
40:25 Speaker 04 His wife would know him better than anyone, you know, that's obviously something that that should have been looked at or should be looked at and considered as well in the totality of the, of the crime scene of what they saw there. But, you know, to say, and I, I don't want to sound, you know, unfeeling about this, but if he didn't die instantly, he could have pushed his glasses up on top of his head after he was hit accidentally, you know, just in the course of, of being hit, struck from the bullet, so.
41:00 Speaker 03 Yeah, and, and I think this is one of the big questions about this case, and it matters a lot to the family, is whether the shooter knew what he'd done, right? So it's one thing if it's a stray bullet, they have no idea. It's another thing, you know, even if the shooter didn't walk up to the body, if they were close enough to know something had happened and then walked away and has never come forward, that matters a lot to, to the family and friends. And this is a point that the DWR initially, in the months after the murder, they said they think the shooter was aware that, that he was close enough to know. And then when I asked them, they, they said, well, we can't speculate on that.
41:45 Speaker 03 So just from your experience investigating cases.
41:50 Speaker 03 What kinds of evidence would they be looking at to indicate that the shooter was close enough to know that they that they had a knowledge of what they'd done and just decided to walk away?
42:03 Speaker 04 Well, the caliber of bullet that was used, the amount of penetration into the victim's body, the angle that it was, there's a lot of things that can go into that, you know, there's a if something is at close range and close, if there's what's called stippling around the entrance, the wound is always an indicator of something being fired at close range, which is gunpowder and debris that gets absorbed into the skin from a close contact wound. If that wasn't there, it obviously tells you that the person, the barrel of the weapon that was used was not close to the body or to the point of contact.
42:48 Speaker 04 So then you're going to go by the amount of penetration and the force that the bullet retained from that, from whatever distance it was shot from. So that that could be clues as to how far it was away. The time of day and being able to see in that environment was something, you know, I think some of the guys that were hunting with him testified that, you know, the shot was so early, one guy thought, wow, is that legal? Well, that that leads me to believe that, you know, it was just, you know, breaking day out there, that there was just enough light to be able to see if he questioned
43:32 Speaker 04 one way or the other, if that was legal to be shooting that early. Which also makes me think that, or would lead me, has led me to believe.
43:44 Speaker 04 That if he was shot from, you know, a distance away, it was after his decoys were set up and he was moving around. And someone thought it was a turkey already on the ground and took a shot, which was, you know, that's violation of the first rule of, of hunting, of safe hunting. It's you not making sure you knew what you were shooting at when you pulled the trigger. But that's what, you know, I, it's so hard to, to come up with conjecture. It's, it's purely conjecture on my part.
44:23 Speaker 04 From reading and listening to this podcast and having to come up with some type, type of credible scenario in which it happened. Uh, but from everything that I've taken at face value, that's, that's been heard here on this podcast. It would lead me to believe, uh, with no motive, no, no motive of someone being angry or having a problem with the victim, that this was a, a hunting accident, which resulted in the homicide of a, a turkey hunter, a man. And whoever it was, you know, left the scene and, and didn't report it.
45:03 Speaker 04 That's, that's everything from, that I can take at face value and come up with in, in my mind.
45:10 Speaker 03 So, uh, next month, it'll be 22 years, if I'm doing my math right, um, since this incident happened. What, what can be done at this point? If this was your case now, what kinds of things would you be doing to, to help solve this?
45:28 Speaker 04 I would, you know, all the evidence that was gathered, whatever evidence was gathered from there.
45:37 Speaker 04 If there, scientists come Long way. If if there was physical evidence gathered there other than, you know, I think there was been some miscommunication or different stories about the cigarette butt, the different cigarette, brand of cigarette butt that was found there. Somebody remembered it. Another person didn't. And did you? I don't know. I don't remember if you got a straight answer from the DWR about if there was any of that gathered there, or did they say anything about any physical evidence?
46:13 Speaker 03 No, they they didn't. They said um to protect the integrity of the case, they can't release that kind of information.
46:20 Speaker 04 I got you. Okay, and that's that's true, obviously. So but to answer your question, what would I do different? Anything
46:31 Speaker 04 physical evidence wise that could have been submitted at that time to a forensics lab could be resubmitted. You know, testing has improved dramatically. Different tests have been developed and invented since then for as far as DNA and and different types of of physical evidence that could be
46:54 Speaker 04 garnered from a crime scene. So you know, a resubmission of of evidence to a a forensics lab would be something that I would that I would look at specifically. Yeah.
47:07 Speaker 03 One of the things that surprised me a bit in my interactions with the DWR
47:14 Speaker 03 is like I said in the podcast, initially, they agreed to an interview and then they they backed out. There they didn't share a lot of information about the evidence like the cigarette butt. And they said that all of this was to protect the integrity of the case. As a as a former law enforcement officer, can you break that down a little bit for us? Because for for a layman like myself, I don't I don't quite understand why sharing a little bit more information to help get the word out about this case would would damage it, especially having not been solved for so long. Could you help me understand kind of the the practical negative consequences
47:58 Speaker 03 of them sharing too much information?
48:01 Speaker 04 In something like this, knowledge is power. I can't tell you. How many times, and there's been some famous cases of people confessing to different things, different crimes that were totally, you know, made up lies from the beginning. Because they went ask certain details about a case, they couldn't give them, or they gave the wrong details. And it's just, it's the, it takes the investigators priorities away from investigating something that that could be legitimate to go down the rabbit hole of of chasing ghost and something that's that's incorrect.
48:43 Speaker 04 So keeping as much critical, critical, crucial evidence in a closed area or in a box where it's not subject to public information, it keeps the, it keeps the the power, I guess, on the side of of the investigators to be able to go after a certain, if if they laid everything out there, you know, we've got fingerprints, or we've got DNA, or we've got this or got that, anything that could be construed by the suspect even, you know,
49:23 Speaker 04 we've got a hole, we've got the rifle hole that that fired the shot. So as soon as we find the right suspect, we're gonna match this hole with that rifle. Well, if that rifle is gone forever, you know, he gets rid of that rifle, there's no way to connect it. So and and these are very arbitrary and things that I'm that I'm giving you, but to keep portions of of the evidence and the the things that they have in the investigation private is crucial a lot of times in solving the case.
50:00 Speaker 04 That's why that they would play those cards very close to their, to their chest.
50:05 Speaker 03 Because maybe whoever did it, or the family of whoever did it could take actions that would, like you say with the rifle, get rid of the rifle, um, that, that would undermine the evidence that they have.
50:20 Speaker 04 Absolutely.
50:21 Speaker 03 Mm hmm. Can you tell me a little bit about, cause I, I would have asked this to, to the DWR. But I know you've had this experience of you're investigating a case and you're, you're being criticized by the family of the victim, by the friends of the victim for not doing enough.
50:41 Speaker 03 Can you tell me a little bit about what that's like?
50:44 Speaker 04 I've got one, you know, you and I talked earlier about this. I've got one unsolved homicide in my career. It, it's the only copy of a case file that I brought home.
50:59 Speaker 04 From my career, one. And it haunts me to this day and, and I know who did it. We know who did it. We just never got the physical evidence to put them, to get them arrested for it. And here's the thing that you got to think about. Once you arrest somebody, if you have enough to arrest them, but not enough to convict them, and you'd go take them to trial on the chance that you might get them convicted and they get found guilty, that's it. That was your swing. You don't get another chance. That's the end of it. There are no other tries.
51:36 Speaker 04 So there is in my 30 plus years of being a police officer, I've never worked with any investigations, any investigation or any department where solving a case was not their number one goal.
51:54 Speaker 04 Being closed mouth about how the investigation is going and the tactics that you have to use.
52:03 Speaker 04 And the pride that you have to swallow when you're accused of not doing enough, it's tough, man. It's tough. But you know, we understand, and I understand that that's coming from a place of emotion because these, these people have had a great loss and they want justice. In my experience, there has never been anyone that wanted justice for, justice for a family any more than, than the folks investigating the case. And it's, um, it's just, it's part of it. It's part of the things that police officers deal with. And I'm glad to talk about it now because it's a, it's a struggle. It's a hard thing to do. It's a hard thing to live with. It's not something that I could go to work for
52:45 Speaker 04 eight or nine or 10 hours a day and, and leave at the office and go home. Because when I went home, I was with my wife and my family. Somebody wasn't going home to their wife, the victim, or their husband, or their father or mother. And that, that weighed on me heavily. And it weighs on, I'm sure it weighs on these folks. And I can assure you that there's no greater joy than to be able to call someone or go and see them and tell them, look, it ain't going to bring the victim back, but we found who did it. And
53:24 Speaker 04 they're gonna, you know, they're gonna pay. So it's, um, it's a job that I volunteered for. I wasn't made to do it. I'm not asking for sympathy and I'm not giving sympathy to these guys. But I can understand where they're coming from. And it's just, um, it's just another, it's a pretty tough road to hoe until you get somebody arrested and get them gone. But that's, that's their job and that's what they're there for.
53:48 Speaker 03 Thanks Brent. I really appreciate you coming on and answering some of these questions for us.
53:52 Speaker 04 You bet, man. Good luck to these guys. And I appreciate what you're doing, bringing, bringing light to something maybe, um, another, obviously deserves another look.
54:03 Speaker 03 And I hope we get this thing to fruition. I'll be, I'll be right here with you when you do it.
54:13 Speaker 03 Part five. What's next?
54:18 Speaker 03 As with many cold cases, David's death may not be solved unless someone who knows something comes forward. At least, that's what a DWR agent told Kenny.
54:31 Speaker 06 He says, "Just gonna have to wait for somebody's wife to get mad."
54:36 Speaker 03 In the interest of keeping this show semi-family friendly, we can't air Kenny's response to that comment.
54:44 Speaker 03 But you can imagine. It's a frustrating place for the family to be, especially when you think the DWR hasn't done enough.
54:54 Speaker 03 But it may be true that the only way this case will ever be solved is if someone's wife gets mad, or someone's grandchild learns the truth, or someone's neighbor finally does the right thing. There isn't any more physical evidence that can be collected from the crime scene. It's been nearly 22 years since David was murdered. And while time might heal all wounds, it also clouds memory and dulls whatever moral compass the killer may have once had.
55:25 Speaker 03 There was at one point a $36,000 reward for information leading to the conviction of the killer, but that's no longer on the table. David's kids say their father always encouraged them to follow their consciences, to tell the truth. Those three kids are now grown, with kids of their own. But they've had to live for the last 20 years, wondering what happened to their dad. Now, their only request is that whoever did this, or whoever knows who did this, follow their dad's advice. Listen to your conscience. Do what's right.
56:08 Speaker 03 That's what Tammy said too, when I asked her what she'd say to the person responsible for killing her husband.
56:15 Speaker 07 I just wish that they would come forward, say something. I mean, they've put us through hell. Have a soul, man. Come out and say something. I don't think they did it on purpose, but come forward and say something. Don't put the family through all this and all these years of just not knowing. You know, I hope nobody ever has to go through what we had to go through.
56:40 Speaker 03 If you or anyone you know has any information about this incident, the DWR asks that you call their anonymous tip line at 1-800-237-5712. You can also text your tip to 847-411 or send an email to [email protected] .
57:03 Speaker 03 The murder took place in Virginia's Rockbridge County on April 12, 2003, the opening day of spring gobbler season.
57:29 Steven Rinella? I'll tell you one thing that binds together all of the vehicles in the Rinella fleet at my house. They all have WeatherTech floor liners. When we get a new car, the first thing we do, out with the junky factory carpet mats, in with WeatherTech. They really are the best. They're indestructible. You can pull them out, hose them off. It doesn't matter what happens on the floor of your rig. If you've got WeatherTech, you're going to be covered. I love these things. If you're looking to get a great gift for someone, especially if they're a big time outdoors kind of person, like if you really want to do them a favor, get them some WeatherTech floor liners for their truck or car. They'll have a way easier time keeping their rig nice and clean, and they'll get years and years of use out of
58:13 Steven Rinella? a set. Visit weathertech.com for your holiday shopping today. Time out in the field is not free, okay? Every time you go out in the woods, there's a trade-off. Happening like you leave work early, you miss your kid's game, whatever you forego some family gathering. If that applies to you, what you got to do is you got to learn how to spend the right time out in the woods, the right time in the tree. An OnX Hunt's deer movement forecast tells you when deer are most likely to be on their feet based on real conditions. So you're not missing the kid's game or burning paid time off on a day that's not going to produce. The deer movement forecast means missing fewer of the moments that matter, whether in the stand or back at home.
58:56 Steven Rinella? Try it today in OnX Hunt. You need credit to buy, well, pretty much any big thing. So how do you get started? Easy. The One Pay Builder Card. It's simple and smart. One Pay is the banking app trusted by millions of Americans and the One Pay Builder Card is an easy way to build credit. Just use it to make everyday purchases, build your credit history, and then you can work up to the big milestones, buying a new car or a new house. Or hell, maybe something I'm always thinking about, which is another boat. Those moments start with small, consistent steps with the One Pay Builder Card.
59:35 Steven Rinella? Download the One Pay app or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.
59:43 Speaker 05 One Pay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Builder card results may vary and aren't guaranteed. Learn more about banking through One Pay at onepay.com/podcast.
59:57 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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