ALL energy bills to fall | Plan 2 student loans | Retirement tips

The main topic this week is all about your energy bills. It’s the biggest shakeup to energy bills for a few years. All bills are coming down on 1 April, not just the price cap, fixes & others too. So whether you’re on prepay, direct debit, with an EV or more then Martin explains how you make the most of it Martin also explains Plan 2 student loans, there’s talk the government may be about to change policy, so what are the options and how does it work. The Tell us this week is about what you learnt when you retired that you would now tell others in advance. And this week’s Mastermind is all on inheritance tax, we’ve buried a few important tips in there on it too. If you want to ask Martin a question, you now can! His Question Time podcast lets you ask Martin absolutely anything and everything (within reason!) – so if you’ve always wanted to know what colour his eyes are, what he's planning to do in his eventual retirement, or have a very complicated question about your personal finances, email it to [email protected] mailto:[email protected].

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:47Martin Lewis?

  Sit back, everyone. It is not the complicated one. So.

• 1:50Speaker 04

  Price cap, and the price cap is a pants cap.

• 1:53Martin Lewis?

  My honest answer is your fix rate is going to get cheaper on the 1st of April.

• 1:56Speaker 04

  Shall we move on?

• 1:56Martin Lewis?

  We've done some simple subjects today, haven't we?

• 1:58Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:59Martin Lewis?

  Student finance and the interaction of underlying energy bills when we're having an unprecedented move. This is fun. Hello, I'm Martin Lewis and this is the cunningly named The Martin Lewis Podcast. I do wonder what that's going to be about. Now, usually, much of it comes from my BBC Radio 5 live show with Adrian Charles. But there's also bonus money-saving tips just for you lucky, lucky podcast listeners. In today's pod, it's the biggest shake-up to energy bills for a few years. All bills are coming down on the 1st of April, not just the price cap, fixes and others too. So whether you're on prepaid, direct debit, got an EV or more, how do you make the most of it?

• 2:38Martin Lewis?

  Plan 2 student loans, there's talk the government may be about to change policy. So what are its options and how do they actually work? But tell us this week, what did you learn when you retired that you'd now tell others in advance? We've had some amazing answers to this, including don't retire in January and focus on your health span, not your lifespan. And this week's mastermind is all on inheritance tax and I've buried a few important tips in there too. Play the theme tune.

• 3:14Martin Lewis?

  So at the start of the pod, we went straight into the big newsy issue of the moment, Plan 2 student loans.

• 3:21Speaker 04

  Whenever you talk about student loans, I find myself getting sort of slightly baffled. Right, but then it's always reassuring when I speak to some of the smartest people I know amongst my sort of friendship group, school friends, you know, with kids that are university age now. They come to me and they just say, what, I can't understand what. So it's not just me, it just is flipping complicated.

• 3:46Martin Lewis?

  It is a Rube Goldberg machine, if you know what one of those is.

• 3:49Speaker 04

  I don't, but go on, tell us.

• 3:50Martin Lewis?

  It's the famous sort of invention, you know, you see it and then the marble walls down the steps and it turns the toaster on and the toast flips out and it moves into. That's a Rube Goldberg machine. And that's the problem with student loans. I mean, there are five different plans, each of them, they have what look like minor differences in terms, but it totally changes the entire structure and the way that they operate. And so there's huge confusion out there and there's the difference. Between the politics and I'll be honest, it's not been my finest week on that. Pretty disappointed with myself as you you may know that I I uh was hearing a conversation about myself and Good Morning Britain and I interrupted. Okay, look, it happens, forgive yourself, honestly, everyone's apologised to everyone else, it's all cool.

• 4:31Martin Lewis?

  But I regret it, it was unfair to do that even to anyone, even the leader of the opposition, the content I don't regret. But I hold myself to better standards than that, but I thank you for saying that and I did. I got I went to meet her yesterday, we had a really good chat and Laura Trott, who's the Secretary of State for Education, about student finance too. And I was very pleased I got to apologise in private as well, properly. Anyway, what I wanna, what I think we should do. Yeah. Is is let me, let me try and start with the basics. Now, thi- this is about Plan Two student loans. Those are the student loans for people from England and Wales who started, so it's where you're from, not where you go to uni. From England and Wales, not where you went to uni is irrelevant, as long as it's in the UK. And started between twenty twelve thirteen academic year and the twenty twenty three academic year.

• 5:15Martin Lewis?

  You're on Plan Two. Now, I'm gonna, there are three main elements that work in combination in any student loan. The repayments, the when it wipes and the amount that you borrow in interest, those are the three. So let's go through each one in turn. On Plan Two student loans, you repay nine percent of everything you earn currently above twenty eight and a half thousand pounds. So it is effectively, while you have it, it it's paid through the payroll, just like income tax, it's nine percent additional payments. And the most important thing to understand about student finance is what you pay each year is solely dictated by what you earn and the threshold. And one of the big contentious things at the moment is while the threshold will go up this year

• 6:01Martin Lewis?

  from next year in the last budget, the Chancellor said it would be frozen. And that works like fiscal drags on tax. If you think about it, if you're paying the the threshold next year is going to be just over twenty nine grand. So if you earn thirty grand next year, you're gonna pay a little bit. But then if you, your salary goes up to thirty one grand the next year and the repayment threshold's frozen, then you're paying a bigger proportion of your salary to pay the student loan back. Does that make sense? It does.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  What interests me is that, I mean, in any other financial product, you'd look at the small print when you sign up for it. I mean, does it say in that small print, you know, the terms and conditions of this? I know it's not technically a loan, we call it that, it's like more of a tax, isn't it?

• 6:40Martin Lewis?

  Well, well, I'd say for those who have it, it works like a tax, but the contract is a loan contract. Which is, again, this is the duality and complexity that's ridiculous.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  But does it say there somewhere, look, this is, this is what you will pay, this is the threshold, but, you know, asterisk, subject to the whim, if whatever government's in, in power at the time.

• 6:56Martin Lewis?

  No, and it didn't say that, but it, within the contract, look, I tried to take the, the, the government in 2015 to judicial review over this because they changed the repayment threshold and they reneged in the end and there was a political solution there. Hopefully there'll be one here. And my legal advice at the time was it, it wouldn't work. There was nothing that we could stop that. That, that's not the same as saying individual students can't take a legal case. And, and they may well be able to take a legal case, whether they'd win or not, is, you need a lawyer, is not me. And so, but what they were promised is it would go up with average earnings. I mean, that was in the marketing, that was what the government was saying, that's what people got when they signed up to it. And that's why I've been particularly vexed over the repayment threshold freeze by the current government. Because I think there's an argument about changing terms for future students.

• 7:39Martin Lewis?

  We may all hate what they do, but that's within politicians' whim. But negative retrospective changing contract, for me, is a moral breach of contract and it shouldn't be done, which is why I've been very vocal on that. And, and, and, you know, I'd said publicly that I don't think that the Chancellor should be doing that. And asked them to U-turn on that, which they may well do. But, but anyway, let me go back to the mechanics. So you, you're with me. What you pay is solely about what you earn above the threshold. Nothing else. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how much you're borrowing is for what you repay each year. The next step is when does it wipe? And we've planned two loans. It wipes when you've cleared everything you borrowed in the interest or 30 years, whichever comes first. For the majority of people, it's 30 years.

• 8:21Martin Lewis?

  So therefore, for the majority of people, you are paying 9% additional over the threshold for 30 years. And that is the main dictator of what you pay. The final thing is the amount you borrow and the interest that's added on top. And the unique thing about Plan Two loans for undergraduates is they have the maximum interest rate of inflation, and it's the RPI, not the CPI, which is an issue, inflation plus 3%, so above inflation interest rates. And that's something I've always, since before 2012, I was campaigning at the time, that it was wrong on principle to do so, but they have above inflation interest rates added on top of them.

• 9:02Martin Lewis?

  And the amount of interest you pay is dictated by your earnings. So the higher you earn, you get up to the maximum RPI plus three, and that's not gone up with inflation either. So that's not been index-linked as it should have been. But the complexity that you therefore have here, Adrian, is there are sort of two cohorts of Plan Two loan holders. There's the majority, probably currently at the moment estimated about 70%, who simply will not repay in full in the 30 years before it wipes. And therefore, for them, and many of them are looking at their loan statements right now and are in panic, seeing this huge amount of interest added, but that additional interest in practical terms won't change what they repay, because they will repay 9% of everything they earn above the threshold for 30 years.

• 9:47Martin Lewis?

  And they will repay that whether they owe, if they're in that cohort, they'll repay that whether they owe £100,000, a million pounds, or £100 million. It doesn't matter, because what you repay is 9% of everything you earn above the threshold. Then you have the other cohort, which are those who either are the lowest borrowers initially, or in general, the highest earning graduates. So it's not the wealth you had before, it's how much you earn as a graduate or a university leaver. And they will clear in full within the 30 years, which means for them, the interest rate they pay is real. So there is this weird difference in student loans, that the interest rate added is not necessarily the interest rate paid.

• 10:31Martin Lewis?

  If I reduce this to absurdity to make my point, if you have someone who only earns £20,000 a year, which is below minimum wage, but let's go with it, well, they will never earn above the threshold, they will never repay a penny, never mind pay any interest, so the interest rate is irrelevant for them, even though they see it added to their statement. And then, at the other hand, you have those people who will repay all the interest because they're going to clear in the 30-year period. And what's the opposite of a sweet spot? Sour spot. The sour spot, thank you. The sour spot here is those who will repay in almost exactly 30 years. They pay more because if you earn even more, you'll repay in less than 30 years, so you'll pay less interest. So there's a weird distributional curve that goes on.

• 11:16Martin Lewis?

  So do you sort of get what I'm saying? Your repayments each year are dictated by how much you earn, and then there's whether you'll clear it or not in the 30 years. If you will clear it in the 30 years, then the interest that's added is the interest you'll pay. If you won't, you will pay less interest or possibly no interest compared to the borrowing. And that's the complexity. Have you got that? Have I managed to explain it well? Yes. Okay, so let me move on to what the policy options are now that are being discussed. And there's various, and I'm going to try and keep this as neutral as I can. You have the repayment threshold. If you increase the repayment threshold, so you say people start paying on higher earnings, then that reduces the amount that people pay and increases people's disposable income.

• 12:01Martin Lewis?

  And that is beneficial to all students because they pay less, though it does mean fewer people will repay in full. And therefore, those who are higher earners may end up paying more interest if you decrease the repayments by increasing the threshold. And they will pay more interest because they're paying less off. But then again, you can always voluntarily overpay. So if you were in that situation and the repayment threshold's increased, then you would just voluntarily overpay and you could conquer that. The other thing being discussed is reducing the interest. Now, reducing the interest, I think, has a lot of psychological benefits because the interest is absolutely scaring the pants off people when they look at their loan statements, even those who will never pay all that interest. It is a horrendous thing, the way that we frame it.

• 12:45Martin Lewis?

  But that as a distributional impact, that benefits primarily the highest earning graduates down to, well, it's argued down to the median, so the middle earning graduates. I haven't seen full numbers on that, but let's just take that at face value. But that doesn't benefit low to mid earning graduates because reducing the interest, they would never have paid it anyway. So you have these two alternate things. You have increasing the repayment threshold, which within the cohort of graduates is more progressive because it starts at the bottom end and moves upwards. And you have reducing the interest, which is, some would say, is more aspirational because it helps those from the top, that's the argument being given, it helps those from the top end down.

• 13:27Martin Lewis?

  And I've tried to do that with political neutrality, which is not easy on this subject. But hopefully that makes some form of sense. But I go back to a Rube Goldberg machine. You see how complicated this is. And therefore you have lots of people who are asking for things that won't necessarily benefit them. Because, and the whole psychological impact of the interest on student loans and the way it's framed and done has been something I've long talked about and is terribly framed. It is a nightmare.

• 13:57Martin Lewis?

  Now, we're going to move on to energy news. The latest is we had the announcement this week that the energy price cap is going to drop on the 1st of April. But that is not the only story in town. The big twist, as I'm about to explain, is that all energy bills will be dropping on the 1st of April. Let's get into it. So what's happening on the 1st of April is there is a reduction for the energy price cap, which is of course the do nothing tariff. If you've not switched or you've come off a fix and you've done nothing, you're on your firm's standard variable tariff, which is about 60% of homes in England, Scotland and Wales. You're on the price cap and that means your price is regulated by OFGEM. Then what's happening is it's going to come down by 6.7% on average.

• 14:43Martin Lewis?

  In practice, the electricity unit rate is going to drop 11%. The electricity standing charge will go up 4.5%. Gas unit rates will drop 3.2% and the gas standing charge will drop 17.1%. Now, the illustration from Ofgem is somebody on typical use on the price cap would see a reduction of £117 a year, but of course, the price cap only lasts three months, it doesn't last a year, so that's an annualised equivalent for a three monthly system. So prices are going to go down, but importantly, the predictions are after April, we're going to stay at roughly that level for the rest of the year. So it isn't that this is just April, then it's going to shoot back up again. And the reason for that, and this is the big thing that everybody needs to take home,

• 15:27Martin Lewis?

  because you need to understand what's happened, the change, the structure of energy bills, is most of the reduction is because two policy costs have been taken off bills. The eco scheme is ending at the end of March, so therefore, that will no longer be paid for on the 1st of April, and that is on most bills, just not on some smaller firms. And for three years, 75% of the cost of the renewable obligation is to be taken off bills and paid by the state, so that's through general taxation or debt, however you politically want to view that. And that is the government's £150 off bills. Now, because this is coming off policy costs, that is the main driver of what is reducing the price cap, but it also means all other tariffs, including people on existing fixes, will drop too.

• 16:12Martin Lewis?

  And in fact, we're expecting to see somebody on typical use on a fix, or roughly typical use, will see a drop of between 7 and 9% on the 1st of April. So yes, literally, if your tariff is fixed, even though it says it's fixed, on the 1st of April, the rate you pay for energy will drop. So it's not just the price cap changing, it's all energy bills changing. I think, I know you've got loads of questions. Hopefully we've got that, that's sort of a primer and then we'll get into the questions.

• 16:38Speaker 04

  Okay. Fungus de Bogiman.

• 16:41Martin Lewis?

  Nice name.

• 16:41Speaker 04

  Nice name. So why do they drop the cap when people turn their heating off and bang it back up with extra when it's time to warm the home again?

• 16:49Martin Lewis?

  I mean, I very commonly get that asked. And this is a particularly different one. The cap moves. The most volatile element of the cap is wholesale rates that make up 40% of your bill. And that moves and the cap is an assessment of the three months rate in the run up to the cap changing. And they do actually look at it over different rates that are a year. So it's not really a winter summer thing, but it has happened that it goes up in the summer, goes down in the summer and comes up in the winter. I think what's important to understand about this is we've changed the underlying benchmark of energy bills. So these policy costs have come off and they're not going back on. So the main reason the price cap is dropping this time is because of policy changes, not because of the wholesale rate. In fact, if we didn't have the policy changes, then we would be seeing the price cap go up

• 17:33Martin Lewis?

  by about one to one and a half percent because of additional network costs that have been added on top and because of what happened with wholesale rates. So I think this particular drop, not normal, is likely to be, see, sets a new range of prices. And of course, the wholesale rates could go up and they could rise again, but I think we're likely to see it stay at this level and that should go into the winter and beyond.

• 17:55Speaker 04

  Gavin's fixed until December 26. Should I leave early and fix again or stay? Or will the savings be passed on to me automatically?

• 18:05Martin Lewis?

  On the first of April, and firms haven't written to customers yet. I had the boss of Ofgem on my TV show the other day and I put this to him that why hasn't anyone communicated? And he said they were going to be communicating soon. On the first of April, the rate you pay for your existing fix will drop. It's going to drop by roughly 3.5 pence per kilowatt hour on electricity and 0.33 pence per kilowatt hour on gas. The only exception is if you are on a smaller firms tariff, a very small firms tariff that weren't part of the eco scheme where you won't see such a big drop because you don't get the eco savings because you weren't paying them anyway. So you will automatically see your fix get cheaper on the first of April.

• 18:47Martin Lewis?

  But what that does mean is if you do a comparison now, because they're all going to be dropping by roughly the same rate, if there is a cheaper fix available now and you don't have early exit penalties, then you might want to switch to it. If there isn't a cheaper fix available now and you do have early exit penalties, you won't want to switch to it. So there's no, there's no great rationale here. All fixes are going to come down. So if you do a comparison now, it's, it's an easy comparison because they're all coming down by the same amount, whichever one's cheaper is the one that's cheaper and therefore go for that. But you may have early exit penalties to go. If you've got a good fix in the first place, you're probably sitting pretty and fine. So there's no need to do anything because your price is going to come down automatically.

• 19:24Speaker 04

  Sarah Jane, the electric standing charges are going up, so we're not saving anything.

• 19:28Martin Lewis?

  Well, that's not true. They are going up and I have vociferously campaigned about the standing charge for many years. I think it's a moral hazard. I think it disincentivizes lower users from cutting their bills. And again, when I spoke to Ofgem about this on Tuesday night, they are doing a pilot scheme. It's not as good as I wanted, but still a pilot scheme for 150,000 customers coming in April, where they're going to be testing lower standing charge tariffs. But while the electricity standing charge is going up by, it's, it's about two and a half pence a day, right? It's going up two and a half pence a day. The electricity unit rate is coming down by three pence a kilowatt hour

• 20:10Martin Lewis?

  and we use a lot more kilowatt hours than we have days in the year. So overall, unless you were someone who has no gas and only electricity meter and you use a tiny, I mean really tiny amount of electricity, your bill will be dropping in April. And in fact, the people who will see their bills dropping the most are electricity only users who are high users, because the biggest change here is the electricity unit rate, this is on the price cap anyway, is coming down by 11%. So I understand your point. I don't like standing charges either, but it is not fair to say that the electricity standing charge is going up, therefore we won't save because the unit rate is coming down so substantially.

• 20:50Speaker 04

  When are we likely to see the rate affecting the suppliers' fixes? I looked at Eon again today, says Jay, as my fix ends in April, the fixes on their site haven't changed yet, why the lag?

• 21:03Martin Lewis?

  They won't change, so this is going to get really complicated over the next month for people. We have this date, it's like everything is being pulled down on the 1st of April. It's coming down. And they're all, fixes will, we hope, they will all come down by a uniform amount. So on the 1st of April, the price that you pay if you were to fix from the 1st of April onwards will be based on the new prices. But if you're comparing fixes now, they have to tell you the price that is currently in play, even though that price should drop on the 1st of April. And I had confirmation from Ofgem, all prices should drop, all the savings should be passed on. And I've been firm by firm, and every single firm apart from TULO Energy, who just seemed

• 21:45Martin Lewis?

  not to respond, has replied by saying, yes, they will pass on the full savings, and yes, it will be done on the 1st of April. So if you're looking at fixes now, and you find your cheapest fix today, that will just get cheaper on the 1st of April by the same amount as other fixes. So your cheapest fix today is your cheapest fix today, because they're all going to use by a uniform amount, with the exception, and the only one who's in the charts at the moment who's really cheap, is Fuse Energy, because it's one of those smaller providers that does not have the eco scheme. So while it will drop on the 1st of April, its rates won't drop by as much as the other fixes. I say it's a bit complicated, I hope that makes sense.

• 22:23Speaker 04

  Steve wants to know if we're ever going back to pre-war gas and electric prices. But I mean, which war are we talking about there?

• 22:30Martin Lewis?

  I think the Ukraine war.

• 22:31Speaker 04

  I assume it means the Ukraine war.

• 22:32Martin Lewis?

  We're definitely never going back to pre-World War II, I'm not sure we're going back to pre-Ukraine either.

• 22:37Martin Lewis?

  Look, just before the crisis, I think the price cap was about 1270, it's now in the 1600s. I'm not sure we will ever get back, I mean, partly because the change of the way that we distribute and generate energy. So there are two things that go on there. First of all, the move to renewables and more wind generation. Means that you have to have transmission and distribution costs. Instead of having lots of central power stations, we have lots of small generation hubs. And connecting those up costs money and that's gone on to the network costs that we pay. And that has increased prices. And secondly, the shift of use primarily because of electric cars to having to have a lot more electricity also means that there are lots of cost changes going in the underlying infrastructure.

• 23:20Martin Lewis?

  So even that alone, I think, means we probably wouldn't go back to where we were. And not unless there are, you know, maybe in 10, 15 years' time with huge dividends. If the promised renewable dividend comes off, but I'll leave other people to discuss that. In the short term though, I think in the first, from the first of April, it wouldn't surprise me. And I'll do it on typical use figures, even though it's meaningless, but it just gives you a scale. If the cheapest fixes were coming in at around 1,350 quid a year. And then if we go back to what the price cap was, so I'm not comparing like we like. Cause fixes before the war were much cheaper. The price cap before the Ukraine war was maxed out at about 1270. So I think we're getting closer. I think from the first of April, we will get closer to you being able to get a tariff

• 24:05Martin Lewis?

  that's not that much more expensive than it was pre Ukraine. But we're never going to go back, I don't think. Certainly, certainly not in the, in the imminent future. Unless there's some massive economic issue that means world energy prices drop. You know, it probably comes out of world recession, but I can't predict that.

• 24:22Speaker 04

  Gary says, can you explain if or how the £150 savings is going to be applied to people on a tracker tariff? Or does this mean we will be better off switching to a fixed tariff?

• 24:33Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so I need to be slightly careful here because there is the general term a tracker tariff, which is a tariff that tracks the price cap or is a price cap tariff. And then there is the specific tariff, the octopus tracker.

• 24:49Martin Lewis?

  If I answer for the first one, if you are on a price cap or a tract tariff, then you will see your rates drop on the 1st of April, they'll be applied automatically. If you are on the octopus tracker tariff, that is a time of use tariff, where the amount you pay changes every day based on underlying wholesale rates at that time. And it can work very well for some people, but you've got to be aware of the volatility. And there's also the agile tariff, where the price means every half hour. And you can go online and you can see it, so you need to be really able to distribute your usage correctly for that. The octopus tracker tariff, they will pass on all the policy cuts. But of course, it will be far more difficult to see, and I asked, again, I asked off Gem

• 25:34Martin Lewis?

  Boss about this the other day, because it's something that concerns me, and they will be monitoring that everything will be passed on. But you won't be able to work out, you know, how much it is, because it's a day changing rate, it just means the rate will be lower than it would be, everything else being equal, but you won't know what the rate would be otherwise. But no, in itself, that is not a reason for you to shift. If you're on the tracker tariff and it's right for you, then that can be cheaper than the cheap fixes. If you're on a standard variable tariff, then that's the price cap, and the price cap is a pants cap. And if you can fix, and those on prepayment can't, or can't get cheap fixes anyway, then I would get yourself off the price cap and onto a fixed deal and go via a comparison site to find your cheapest.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  A question from somebody called Paul, who said that it was promised in the budget that average bills would come down by £150, when in reality bills are coming down an average of £117. Are those sums right?

• 26:29Martin Lewis?

  Yes, but sit back, everyone. It is another complicated one. So, the promise in the budget was that bills would come down on average £150, but they did say everything else remaining equal. And I remember talking to Ed Miliband about that, and he was very clear, it was everything else remaining equal.

• 26:50Martin Lewis?

  But that number was quite interesting because it was always thought that the reduction on the price cap would be £133. So why the £150 to £133 first? It might have been £134, £135, but it was in the 130s. And the reason for that difference was average users on the price cap use less energy than average users not on the price cap. So the overall average saving for everybody, because this applies to all bills, is £150. But the average saving for those on the price cap was going to be in the 130s because they use less. With me so far?

• 27:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:28Martin Lewis?

  Right. Then, the announcement of the price cap coming down in April of £117 is due to the everything else remaining equal. The price cap moves every three months and there are lots of factors in there: wholesale rates and network costs, which I've already talked about ad nauseam, and those have gone up. So as I said earlier, if the policy costs had not come off bills, we would have seen the price cap go up in April as opposed to down 6.7%. It would have probably gone up by about 1%, 1.6%. So for those on the price cap, the saving on a typical bill isn't in the 130s, it's 117. Interestingly, if you're on a fix, because your rate is fixed, and therefore the only thing affecting its price

• 28:12Martin Lewis?

  during the fix will be the policy cuts, you are likely to see the full policy cuts passed on. Because that's why I said earlier that will be a 7% to 9% saving, and that's where the £150 comes from. So it's very complicated, but it does actually take me to a really important point, just moving it on a second. The current differential between the cheapest fixes and the price cap is about 14%. So if you're on the price cap, you do a comparison, it depends on usage and reason, but let's just go average. You would save about 14%, maybe £200, £250 on a typical bill, by getting on a fix now. Then in April, your fixed rate will drop.

• 28:53Martin Lewis?

  And it will likely drop by more than the price cap is dropping. So currently the differential is 14%. Probably from April, the differential between the cheapest fix, if you would get it now, and the price cap might be 15% or 16%. And then the predictions are, and this is where it gets to crystal ball gazing, that from July onwards, when the price cap changes again, it's going to, the price cap will stay at roughly the same level, whereas of course your fix is fixed, so it won't change. That's why I'm saying get off the price cap if you can. And there are many other options than fixing, but fixing is the simple option because that differential is so cheap. And as a totally different aside, some very nice news. One of my good friends, Jason's wonderful daughter, who's worked so hard at medical school, I

• 29:36Martin Lewis?

  just got a WhatsApp through. Can I just say congratulations now, Dr. Emma Franks?

• 29:41Speaker 04

  Of course. Congratulations from all of us. What about, we get a caller on? Would you like to hear from Jim in Kings Lynn? I would.

• 29:49Martin Lewis?

  Absolutely.

• 29:50Speaker 04

  Bring him on. Jim, how are you doing? What have you got for Martin?

• 29:52Speaker 00

  Hello. Yeah, I'd just like to know, I've got a electric gas bill or electric gas, I need to change it next month.

• 30:01Martin Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  And uh.

• 30:02Martin Lewis?

  So you're, are you on a fix? Sorry, sorry. Are you on a fix that's ending? Is that, is that why?

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Uh, yes.

• 30:08Martin Lewis?

  Okay, cool.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  That's ending next month. My direct debit, it was £200 a month. And they've just told me, on what they've, on the email they sent me, they just put my direct debit up to £375 a month. So I just wondered what deals there are, what I need to do.

• 30:24Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so, sorry to get confusing here for a second. It's important to understand that your direct debit and the amount that you pay are separate. So the direct debit can often go up because it's based on them estimating what you will use. But what you actually will pay in the long run, that affects your cash flow, is based on the rate. So we can't really compare on direct debit. But clearly, you're coming off a cheap fix, I presume, and you're going to move to the, the price cap, and the price cap is more expensive than your cheap fix. So you would pay more, so things would go up. Is there anything I need to know about your usage? Do you have an electric vehicle? Do you have storage heaters? Do you have anything like that?

• 30:59Speaker 00

  No storage heaters, gas heating. I have an electric car, we need to charge at night.

• 31:05Martin Lewis?

  Do you drive a lot?

• 31:08Speaker 00

  Um, not a lot.

• 31:11Martin Lewis?

  Are you a 3,000 miles a year or a 10,000 miles a year or a 20,000?

• 31:15Speaker 00

  About 15,000 miles a year.

• 31:17Martin Lewis?

  So you're using the chunk, you know.

• 31:19Speaker 04

  So you're charging every night?

• 31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, charging most nights.

• 31:24Martin Lewis?

  Well, you will, you will almost certainly be better on an EV tariff. The, the big question is, how much of your energy, other energy usage could you safely shift to nighttime? So let's say we're talking between 12 and 5 in the morning.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  A reasonable amount. We set the washing machine dishwasher often to come on in between midnight and 5.

• 31:47Martin Lewis?

  Okay.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Because we're currently on a, I forget the name of the tariff, but a electric vehicle tariff.

• 31:52Martin Lewis?

  Which firm is it?

• 31:53Speaker 00

  British Gas.

• 31:54Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so you're, look, you, you want to go back on to an EV tariff? The one that has the cheapest rates at night is, just from a list in front of me, it's not a complete list, I need to be honest, is So Energy and Eon Next, that are six and a half pence at night. Octopus, intelligent octopus is seven pence. But then you've also got slightly higher rates during the day. There's Fuse Smart EV is pretty good. It has, the, the cheap rate isn't as cheap, but the rates during the day are higher. So it, it, it is a depender, but you absolutely want to get yourself onto a cheap EV tariff. You're using a lot of energy there and shift as much as you use as you can. Just a safety note, don't turn the tumble dryer on when you're asleep, it's not safe. But everything else, you, you know, you can put on when you're asleep, as long as you check the safety of the appliances.

• 32:38Martin Lewis?

  And that will generally, in, if you're on 15,000 miles a year, at the top of my head, and I'm not doing a calculation on it, that will generally outperform going on to a cheap fix for you, is what you should be moving on. There is, there is also the option of the Octopus Agile tariff, where there, the rate moves every half hour and you get a, you get an indication each day of where the rates are going to be. And some days it's more expensive than the cheap EV charging. And some days, you know, when we get into summer, you may well be paid overnight for charging your vehicle. They will actually pay you for doing it, but that's a lot higher risk and you have to be comfortable with that. So I'd be thinking, I'd be having a look at options like Eon Next or So Energy and have a look at Fuse 2 because of its daytime rate as well. And then you just do the numbers.

• 33:24Martin Lewis?

  You really need to understand how much of your energy you're using between 12 and 5 in the morning. And it's about the proportions. I, I don't know how good you are with the spreadsheet, that's the way I'd do this. But we don't have comparison sites that are good enough on EV tariffs yet. That's going to come in the next year, I'd think. Okay, thank you. Does that help? Yeah, that's brilliant. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you so much. So I can't be more exact, but it just depends on the usage distribution.

• 33:47Speaker 04

  One last question. Michael, thanks. Thanks, Jim. Michael's on a fix rate now on E.ON, fixed for 15 months. Would you recommend waiting till April 1st or look for a different fix now?

• 33:56Martin Lewis?

  I just think if you're on a fix and it's a good fix, my honest answer is your fix rate is going to get cheaper on the 1st of April. The price cap has nothing to do with a fix. Someone asked me the other day, I don't understand why the price cap... The driver of the cut in the price cap is the same as the driver of the cut in fixes, but the two are not the same thing. So they're both coming down because of the underlying policy costs, but the price cap moves does not affect the prices of fixes. The price cap moves on a time lag, fixes move based on current prices. They're just totally different. So the price cap coming down is not a reason that you should be changing your tariff. Fix rates are coming down, but if the fix that you're on is a good fix, then your rate's

• 34:38Martin Lewis?

  going to come down anyway too. So well done, stick with it. And if it's not a good fix, then you'll have to factor in any early exit penalties, but do a comparison, see if there's a cheaper one. And if it is cheaper, factoring in the early exit penalties, get off it. What's happening on the 1st April is the same for almost all firms. Therefore, it doesn't really matter in a relative sense for the choice that you're making.

• 35:00Martin Lewis?

  We're going to leave energy there for the moment, but there's a few more tips later in the pod, especially if you are a low user, you have solar panels, or you're on a smart prepayment meter. So listen out for those nearer the end.

• 35:14Speaker 04

  Shall we move on to the...

• 35:15Martin Lewis?

  We've done some simple subjects today, haven't we?

• 35:17Speaker 04

  Oh, we have.

• 35:18Martin Lewis?

  Student finance and the interaction of underlying energy bills when we're having an unprecedented move. This is fun.

• 35:23Speaker 04

  I know. Well, you go through it, you pull up trees, do all sorts of complicated stuff. You ask me a question, I sound like an idiot, and then we finish. That's what happens every week, but I enjoy it. I just like being part of it. So tell us about the tellers.

• 35:37Martin Lewis?

  The tellers was simple. What had no one warned you about when you retired that you would now like to warn other people about? So what I was trying to get at from this is, you know, if you're retired, what is your top tip that you would tell other people that you wish someone had told you? And we have had some beautiful answers.

• 35:55Speaker 04

  We have, we really have. Um, is it giddy or GD? One thing nobody really prepares you.

• 36:00Martin Lewis?

  Giddy, yes, it could be. And one thing nobody really prepares you for is how quiet life

• 36:06Speaker 04

  can feel after you retire. The freedom is great at first, but the sudden loss of routine, workplace, social interaction and sense of daily purpose can hit harder than expected. I'd warn people to start building hobbies, community connections or meaningful, meaningful projects before retirement. So the transition doesn't feel like falling off a cliff into endless free time. That's really, really interesting.

• 36:30Martin Lewis?

  And Graham says lifespan and health span are different things. Quite right. This is what my wife specializes in. So I hear a lot about it in my house. Enjoy your health span while you can and maintain your muscle mass. You want to be able to lift cabin bags into the overhead rack at 80 and not be out of breath, walking up a flight of steps. So it's, it's both cardio is important, but weights are important and squats and being able to get up out of a chair are really important.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think flexibility, that's when I feel I'm quite strong and do weights.

• 36:59Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, me too.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  I mean, I don't bend over and pick something off the floor from one week to the next.

• 37:03Martin Lewis?

  I ask my daughter to do it for me as well now, you know, and it's too easy. I've got, you know, George, can you, I don't want to do it. I do loads of exercise. I exercise every day. And I think that's one of the reasons I have the tight muscles on the back of it. But you're right. And just to do the lifespan versus health span. Cause this is interesting. Cause it's the whole, do you really want to live to 150? Actually, what we want, that's lifespan. Health span is about living as long as you can when you have your health to be able to be both mentally and physically functional and out there and doing things that you enjoy. And, you know, there's this big divide in this world. And again, this is all from, from my wife, Laura Leawington, who is a, a, a health tech specialist.

• 37:45Martin Lewis?

  It, it's all this big divide is coming up of maximizing our health spans, being healthy as long as possible is arguably more important than maximizing our lifespans.

• 37:54Speaker 04

  Nobody really warns you how much identity is tied to work. The money side gets discussed, the lifestyle change doesn't. Structure matters just as much in retirement as it does while earning routine, purpose and social connection. Without those, even a healthy pension pot can feel empty.

• 38:11Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, well, funny enough, one of the other health span things as we're talking about is social interaction. You know, they say the main things are exercise, sleep, eat well, and and social interaction. Those are the things that keep you going as you get older. Ashley, retired but still young, I got great advice from someone. Having a paid off home made retirement possible. If I still had to pay my mortgage, I wouldn't be able to do it. If you can, good luck to you. You can just getting rid of that big bill, getting rid of the pelican would be very useful.

• 38:43Speaker 04

  Otter says maintain a sense of purpose, whether by volunteering, doing casual work, having hobbies. Said the first summer is joyous, but the first winter without purpose can be very depressing.

• 38:54Martin Lewis?

  Interesting. Pete follows that up. Don't retire in January. It's a harder way to start retirement than waiting until the summer months when you can get out. That's very interesting, isn't it?

• 39:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:06Martin Lewis?

  You wouldn't think of that, but you can absolutely see why that works. Well done, Pete.

• 39:10Speaker 04

  I mean, it depends what kind of sort of type you are. You know, I'm hopeless with time on my hands. I'm hopeless. And I suspect you're the same, aren't you?

• 39:21Martin Lewis?

  I don't know. Don't get it. But yeah, absolutely. I there are times when I think I'd just like to stop. And then I would think, what would I do if I did? You know, what would what would fill me? What would give me the purpose to do? And I think that is one of those things about retirement. But I still go with Pete's view that if I had nothing to do, I would prefer to have nothing to do when it's 21 degrees outside than when it's zero degrees and raining and dark. So I think I think even with that sentiment, Adrian, Pete's right. I'm I'm team Pete. Should I do Jim?

• 39:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, Jim's good one this.

• 39:53Martin Lewis?

  Be ready for your working friends and relatives to obsess over the question, what do you do all day? To which you can answer, whatever I want, whatever I want. This afternoon, for example, I shall be watching the cricket. And yes, all afternoon. Why? Because I want to and I can. I feel like we need some like big round of applause ovation for Jim on the back. Yep, absolutely. Have we got time for more? Go on, yeah, do one or two.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  Matt's a wealth manager.

• 40:23Martin Lewis?

  You do a couple, I'll pre mastermind.

• 40:25Speaker 04

  Okay, Matt's a wealth manager. He says those that take out a level annuity should look at the past few years of inflation as a warning to very much consider inflation linking. Many are not informed of this and choose the higher starting number. You'll have to stop your prep for a minute and just decode that for us, Martin.

• 40:43Martin Lewis?

  All right, so an annuity is a payment each year for the rest of your life until you die. And it's one of the things people used to effectively be forced to do with their pensions before we had the so-called pension freedom, which means you can effectively use your pension like a bank account. But an annuity is still a great concept. The reason it became so unpopular is the rates were poor. What he's saying is, don't get a flat annuity. So let's make it very simple. If you pay for an annuity and it pays you £5,000 a year for the rest of your life, well, that £5,000, if you live 30 years, will be worth a lot less in 30 years than it is now. So get, pay for an annuity which goes up and is linked to inflation. So you'll get the equivalent of £5,000 in future money every year for the rest of your life. Clearly, the rate you get at the start would be lower, but it would go up.

• 41:28Martin Lewis?

  And if you are getting an, look, the biggest piece of advice I can give anybody on retirement in terms of the finances is do not do anything with your pension until you have made a pension wise appointment. That's a totally free guidance system offered. It's nonprofit, it comes paid for by a levy on the financial services industry. And there are so many things you can get wrong with taking money out of your pension or using your pension money, including not getting an index linked annuity, including just getting an annuity with your pension provider. That the hour appointment you get with these people to give you specific bespoke guidance is the most important thing that you can possibly do. And if you're lucky enough to be wealthy, then go and pay for independent financial advice too. But the guidance is free to everyone.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Karen's got a good one. Try to live on your projected pension for three months before retiring. You get a feel for it if it's doable and you save money too. You need more than you think for days and meals out. Exercise and eat healthy now, your body will thank you later. Retirement is not good in, in poor health. I wish I got more time on your hands. You probably, you know, will probably end up spending more money.

• 42:34Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, you will. I mean, life doesn't work the way we, around we think it. We work for what, about forty, forty-five years of our eighty-ish year life? And the rest of it, we're, we're having to pay for the other years. You might think, well, hold on, no, I didn't for the early years. But of course, we have a cross-generational subsidy that your parents paid for you while you were a child and you will pay for your children. So that sort of evens out. And then of course, you've got to pay for your retirement. So yeah, I mean, it is hefty. It is hefty. But something else that's hefty in a very bad segue is this.

• 43:10Martin Lewis?

  Welcome to My Money Mastermind, Adrian. The score stands at you've got sixteen right and thirty-three wrong in this three-option, multiple-choice quiz, which means I'm afraid you're doing.

• 43:24Martin Lewis?

  No better than random chance.

• 43:27Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 43:27Martin Lewis?

  Sorry. Now.

• 43:28Speaker 04

  It's all right.

• 43:29Martin Lewis?

  As you'll know, listeners, our Adrian likes simple rules.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:34Martin Lewis?

  Offside, too complicated. VAR, suspicious. Inheritance tax, just don't go there.

• 43:45Martin Lewis?

  It's our favourite.

• 43:48Martin Lewis?

  Well, Adrian, I'm so sorry. Inheritance tax is exactly where I'm going and I want you to understand how it works. So here is your question. But I need to tell you, before I get into the question, something very exciting today. When you give me your final answer, you have to say locked in. And then we have a tension bed that we're going to be doing for the first time before I reveal what the answer is. Isn't that exciting?

• 44:06Speaker 04

  I say locked in.

• 44:07Martin Lewis?

  Okay, you say, yeah, well, I will say to you, are you locked in? And you will say, yes, I'm locked in or no, if you're not. So anyway, a single man has a house worth a hundred thousand pounds and other assets worth three hundred and fifty thousand pounds. Write both those down, hundred thousand, three hundred and fifty thousand. He is leaving the house to his children. Will his estate have to pay any inheritance tax? Which of these best describes the situation? So you got it? House is a hundred grand, other assets three fifty. A, yes, he will, because the total inheritance tax limit is £325,000.

• 44:43Martin Lewis?

  B, no, because he's leaving his house, he gets an extra £175,000, so the total limit is £500,000. Or C, there is no inheritance tax on the house, but there is some on the rest, as the limit on non-house assets is £325,000.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Well, the answer is, I don't know, because I don't know the nuances of inheritance tax. There's some implication that the, I mean, what this boils down to, isn't it, is the, is property

• 45:17Martin Lewis?

  Is there a special?

• 45:18Speaker 04

  Is there any, is it treated differently to any other asset?

• 45:21Martin Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  And I don't see why it would be. Well, I can see why it would be, because it's important, but I don't, I don't, I, I think, no. I think it's A.

• 45:34Martin Lewis?

  It's A. So your answer is yes, because the total limit is £325,000. He will have to pay inheritance tax, because he's leaving a total of £450,000.

• 45:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, but you sound so perky now. I know it's probably the wrong answer, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick to it.

• 45:51Martin Lewis?

  Well, yeah, so locked in. I haven't done the locked in, Simon, but we'll go for it. You're now locked in, Adrian.

• 45:55Speaker 04

  I'm locked in.

• 45:56Martin Lewis?

  So let's start with the basic fact that the standard inheritance tax allowance for a single non-married person is £325,000. That bed's too short. We'll work on this and make it get better.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  On air, on air rehearsals, this is the way, this is the way forward.

• 46:15Martin Lewis?

  Anyway, but there is another allowance, which is if you are leaving your main property to your direct descendants, so that's children or grandchildren, including stepchildren, foster children, adopted children, or the same as grandchildren, you're ma, you get an extra £175,000 allowance. So the answer, we'll have the uh-uh here.

• 46:39Martin Lewis?

  There we are.

• 46:41Speaker 04

  I don't know why they take so long, they should have it ready because it's the same every week.

• 46:44Martin Lewis?

  Well, I know, and when I send through, I do, I do bold the correct answers, then they, they know that you've chosen the wrong one.

• 46:50Speaker 04

  Oh, they do, do they? Well, they could flipping tell me.

• 46:52Martin Lewis?

  No. So then the question is, is it B, he's got this 325,000 and 175,000, so that's a total 500,000 pounds and that covers it? Or is it C, no, it doesn't work because not all was on the house? Well, the correct answer is C. His assets are 350,000 pounds and his property is 100 grand. The property allowance can only be used on the property. It's not like you get a big 175,000 pounds added on top. That can only be used on the property. So his 100,000 pound house uses up the 175,000 pounds, but there's no extra. There's no change from that. And the rest of his assets are 350,000.

• 47:33Martin Lewis?

  So that is bigger than the 325,000 pound non-property limit. And therefore he would pay inheritance tax on the 25,000 pounds.

• 47:42Speaker 04

  So it makes no difference whether the house is worth 100,000 or 175,000?

• 47:47Martin Lewis?

  Well, no, if the house is 100, it would still, it would still be inheritance tax free. The, the, let's be honest, the more likely scenario is that his assets are, his house is worth 350,000. And his other assets are 100,000, in which case there would be no inheritance tax. Because the 175,000 would come off the 350,000, that would leave another 175,000. And he had another 100 grand worth of assets and that would be covered. So that's 275,000. And that's covered by the 325,000 normal limit. So the issue here was because his house was worth less than the 175,000 pounds allowance. He couldn't use the rest of that allowance for his other stuff.

• 48:26Martin Lewis?

  It is very worth me mentioning, the biggest gain on inheritance tax is for those people who are married or in civil partnerships. If you're just cohabiting, you do not get this. It's that you can leave everything to your spouse inheritance tax free. So even if you're, you know, Bruce Wayne and leaving 100 billion pounds. There is no inheritance tax to pay on anything you leave to your spouse. And your spouse gets your unused allowance. So if we take that net allowance of £500,000 that a single person can give, if they left everything to their spouse, therefore their allowance is unused, their spouse can then leave in combined their main property and assets, a million pounds to their kids because they have their spouse's unused allowance too.

• 49:11Martin Lewis?

  And therefore, being married, it's one of the big boons of marriage financially, is the inheritance tax changes.

• 49:20Martin Lewis?

  Okay, we've just finished the main pod and there are a couple more things I want to add on energy. The first is for those people who are either lower users or on smart prepay. There is a tariff that you should be having a look at. It's been around for a while, but they've changed the terms and improved it this week. So that's quite useful. It's the EDF Simply Tracker Tariff. Now, what it does effectively, it's a price cap tariff, but with a hundred quid off standing charges. Until this week, it was 50 quid off. That's why it's improved. With a hundred quid off standing charges. So effectively, you pay the price cap unit rates, but your standing charges over one year, and it lasts for one year, are a hundred quid cheaper. Now, there are also via various sites, you can actually get cash back on top of this too, which will make it even cheaper.

• 50:02Martin Lewis?

  But I'm just going to do the maths based on the hundred quid lower standing charges for the moment. Effectively, what it works out is if you are a lower user, using less than around 80 pounds a month of energy, gas and electricity combined, this is worth doing compared to the cheapest fixes. It's always worth doing compared to the standard price cap because it's a hundred quid cheaper and it's the price cap. But compared to the cheapest fixes, this is worth doing if you use less than about 80 quid a month. Or alternatively, if you're on smart prepay, you can get this tariff. And as the cheapest smart prepay fix currently is only 0.8% cheaper than the price cap, whereas the non-smart prepay fixes, i.e. for those on direct debit, are 14% cheaper. You see this big difference?

• 50:47Martin Lewis?

  Then this is a real winner tariff for most because it will save you about a hundred quid a year. It's a bit of a no brainer if you're on smart prepay. So it is worth having a look at that EDF Simply Tracker Tariff for low users or those on smart prepay. I'm afraid for those of you who are on non-smart prepayment meters, i.e. old school key or card meters. There's just simply no tariffs available that you can switch to that are any use as far as I'm aware at the moment. And they are very rare. So that is one of the reasons, if you can, you would be better to switch to smart prepay where there's a little bit more competition. And it also means that if you have problems and you're unable to pay, you can get more help from your energy firm. So I think there's lots of debates over smart meters. I tend to be a fan, but not a huge fan, but I'm because too many

• 51:31Martin Lewis?

  of them are broken. But I'm more of a fan on smart prepay because I think it makes such a big difference there. Final couple of points. If you have solar panels at home, and you export over around 20% of your energy back to the grid, then it is worth you looking for the cheapest energy tariff that is linked to the solar export guarantee. So basically, the solar export guarantee is the amount that you're paid for generating energy to the grid. And if you put less than 20% back to the grid, just go for the cheapest normal energy tariff. But if it's more than 20%, because you get better solar export guarantee rates, if your energy tariff and your solar export guarantee are from the same firm, then it's often worth picking based on the solar export guarantee rate if that's over

• 52:14Martin Lewis?

  20% of what you generate. Hopefully that made sense. And my final note, of course, of two is, I mean, the other thing you can do on energy is try and reduce your usage. But you know that. So I'm not going to go that in detail. And we've done that on the show many times before. If you are struggling to pay your energy bills, it's always worth talking to your energy firm. They can have hardship and debt grants from suppliers. If you're vulnerable, make sure you're on the priority services register for vulnerable customers. That's useful, too. And there are charities out there like National Energy Action that can help. But I think that's probably enough talking from me. I'll probably shut up.

• 52:45Martin Lewis?

  That's it for this week. We tend to put out a new episode every Thursday like this one, and on Mondays, which is the Question Time podcast, where you can ask me absolutely anything and everything, open brackets, within reason, close brackets. If you've enjoyed today's show, please tell your friends you've been listening to the Martin Lewis podcast. And why not subscribe? Then your pockets will be pleased with you. And if you haven't enjoyed it, well, you've listened this long. I'm sorry. What do you want me to do?

• 53:26Speaker 05

  Martin Lewis is the founder of MoneySavingExpert.com. But of course, other consumer and price comparison websites are available. You can get in touch with Martin's podcast production team by emailing [email protected]. The offers and rates mentioned in the podcast are correct at the time of recording. However, if you are listening on demand, it's worth double checking as details can date. Remember to subscribe on BBC Sounds and leave us a review however you listen.

• 54:02Speaker 02

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• 55:13Speaker 06

  He's the founder of the Adani Group, one of India's major infrastructure conglomerates.

• 55:17Speaker 07

  And with interests ranging from ports to airports to power generation and green energy.

• 55:22Speaker 06

  He's become one of Asia's wealthiest individuals.

• 55:25Speaker 07

  On Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service, we're delving into the life and fortune of billionaire businessman Gautam Adani.

• 55:31Speaker 06

  Listen on bbc.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your podcasts.