Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Michelin Star Chef: Curtis Duffy | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode In this powerful and deeply personal episode, Billy Corgan sits down with world-renowned chef Curtis Duffy to explore the extraordinary journey behind his Michelin-starred career. From a childhood marked by tragedy to becoming one of America’s most celebrated culinary artists, Duffy opens up about how loss shaped his drive, creativity, and obsession with excellence. They dive into the discipline of the kitchen, the meaning of artistry, the pressure of perfection, and what it truly takes to be great at something. Duffy shares why there are no off days in his kitchen, and how each season feels like writing a new record.
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Transcript 13,763 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:31 Speaker 01 You know, I was shameful of my story. I didn't tell hardly anybody through my 30 years of that. I didn't tell anybody. I mean, it was very secretive. I was ashamed of it.
0:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I mean, you, am I wrong in thinking you must have replayed that day in your head like a thousand times?
0:47 Speaker 01 Almost every day of my life.
0:48 Billy Corgan? Because you're an artist in my eyes. How does it not affect your artistry?
0:53 Speaker 01 I always struggle with the idea of, had it not happened, would I be where I am today? And I can't say that I would be. I don't know if I would be. I think everything that happens in life is usually for a reason, and it does go on to shape who you are today.
1:12 Billy Corgan? Okay, welcome. Thank you very much for being here. This special edition, we're in my tea house in Highland Park, Illinois, to talk all things Curtis.
1:22 Speaker 01 Excited to be here, thank you.
1:23 Billy Corgan? Thank you. Um, this is kind of a weird preamble, but I think it's sort of necessary because, um, normally when I look at somebody's life, and one of the reasons I started this show is I love talking about people who are great at what they do. And I just want to sort of explore that, you know? And in the case of food, I mean, I'm totally a punter. I don't understand the world at all. My wife is a foodie, and you know my wife. But, uh, but for me, it's all kind of goes above my head. You know, the classic, somebody comes to the table, you know, the mushrooms are sourced from here, and I'm just like, I don't know.
1:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're lost.
1:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Um, but you know, you have this, you know, this kind of unspeakable tragedy in the early part of your life, that on the surface level doesn't have any direct correlation to your, to your, your work, your life's work. But of course, it must have some connectivity. And we have similar childhoods.
2:22 Speaker 01 Sure.
2:23 Billy Corgan? And in my life, I mean, my, my childhood became such a part of my... Work and it was part of what attracted people to me because I was so being so open about things that most people didn't talk about. And of course, you've written this book, Fireproof, which is out. And, you know, of course, you talk about it in there. But I found myself struggling in preparing to talk to you. It's like, how do you put these two pieces together?
2:49 Speaker 01 Sure.
2:49 Billy Corgan? So the reason I sort of started there is not that I don't want to talk about those things, but I'm, I'm, I'm very interested in your creative life. And yet, over here in the corner, but you have been transparent about it, is this terrible tragedy?
3:03 Speaker 01 Sure.
3:04 Billy Corgan? So, um, so at least maybe by saying that it gives some context for why I'm asking what I'm asking. So I'm curious, you're a Midwestern person, Ohio.
3:14 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
3:15 Billy Corgan? And you seem to bounce between Colorado and Ohio. Um, what was your, I guess, what was your cultural life like when you were young? Do you, I mean, what, what world do you remember growing up in?
3:29 Speaker 01 Do you know, I guess for me, like, my happiest moments were in Colorado.
3:34 Billy Corgan? Okay.
3:34 Speaker 01 I spent my first 13 years in Colorado Springs. And for me, like, those were the happiest moments of my life. We had, we were surrounded by family all the time. I think my father was in a really good place there mentally. My mother as well. I mean, there was certain moments.
3:53 Billy Corgan? Sure. But was it, was it the, was it the, I don't know, you know, for us in Chicago, like, you know, Colorado sounds like, you know, it's mountains and nature.
4:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:02 Billy Corgan? But you probably know, you grew up in like a normal suburb. But I'm saying, was it, was it the outdoor life? Was it Colorado back then wasn't as populous? You grew up, you know, you're born in mid 75, right?
4:12 Speaker 01 Seventy five. I was born in seventy five.
4:13 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So, so the world you grew up in was like, you know, the Reagan eighties.
4:17 Speaker 01 Sure.
4:17 Billy Corgan? You know, America by and large was considered a safe place.
4:20 Speaker 01 Yes. The neighborhoods were safe, at least my neighborhood. I mean, we had friends, we were out till 10, 11 o'clock at night playing hide and seek and.
4:29 Billy Corgan? So what you're thinking of that, is it, is it just that kind of romantic notion of what America was like back then?
4:34 Speaker 01 Yeah. It's kind of what you wish you had for your children today. Because we, we fear just letting them out the front door in this day. And back then, I mean, we ran the neighborhood, we walked to and from school. My parents were always working, so.
4:49 Billy Corgan? So.
4:51 Billy Corgan? What around you was attractive? Was it music? Was it art? Was it somebody, you know, that made great food? Like, what first registered in your mind as culture?
5:02 Speaker 01 I think friends more than anything, just being, uh, being able to stay over at somebody's house and play video games. Well, we didn't have video games at my house, but, you know, on the weekends I can play video games with somewhere else. And we could run the neighborhood. We could ride bicycles and do things like that. That was my upbringing. And for me, that was, that was life. That's what it was. It was, uh, skiing in the wintertime because the mountains, of course, were right there. And then summertime was riding bicycles and just having a blast.
5:35 Billy Corgan? And I know you love music. So what's your musical reflection of that time?
5:40 Speaker 01 My dad playing his stereo, um, big reel to reel system.
5:44 Billy Corgan? Okay.
5:45 Speaker 01 Pioneer, Sansui speakers and woodcase.
5:48 Billy Corgan? You love music then because you only went there if you love music, right?
5:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, and.
5:52 Billy Corgan? And what would you have been listening to in the house?
5:54 Speaker 01 CCR, Quiet Riot, ACDC.
5:56 Billy Corgan? Okay. So like a classic?
5:58 Speaker 01 Classic, yeah. Some Alabama, actually.
6:00 Billy Corgan? Okay, great band.
6:02 Speaker 01 Oak Ridge Boys, if we're going a little country, some Johnny Cash, yeah.
6:06 Billy Corgan? Sure. So, and
6:11 Billy Corgan? to sort of just talk about the elephant in the room, the unspeakable tragedy is you're eight, nineteen. And we don't have to go too deep into it, but it, it sort of bears reflection. It's like, to me, it's like in thinking about it, and I don't know what it's like to go through that, but it's like a shadow on the wall. It's always there.
6:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:27 Billy Corgan? And, and of course, by you being public about it, it becomes part of your life story.
6:33 Billy Corgan? Your father kills your stepmother, but she was the woman that raised you.
6:37 Speaker 01 Correct.
6:38 Billy Corgan? So in your mind, it's your mother.
6:39 Speaker 01 That is my mother.
6:40 Billy Corgan? Really not those, there's no distinction there.
6:42 Speaker 01 Correct.
6:42 Billy Corgan? But technically not your birth mother.
6:44 Speaker 01 Right.
6:45 Billy Corgan? And, um, so.
6:50 Billy Corgan? Was your life before that, like I hear you sort of like, let's call it classic middle-class life. Was your life before that, would you classify this as happy, but there were sort of things that were going on? Or was it a situation that worsened over time?
7:05 Speaker 01 I think once we moved to Ohio, that would have put me around the age of 13, sixth grade. When we moved to Ohio, that's, I think, when I started noticing it more.
7:16 Billy Corgan? Was it there and then you started noticing it? Or did something change?
7:20 Speaker 01 Well, it changed in a way, the lifestyle changed drastically. Like I said, like Colorado, we seemed to, it was a five-bedroom house, decent yard. I didn't feel like we struggled for many of anything, actually. And maybe that's just my naivety, being so young as a child. But when I got to the age of 13 and we moved to Ohio is when I felt like this is, we're not in Kansas anymore.
7:46 Billy Corgan? Was there an economic decision behind moving?
7:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, my father, my grandfather owned, owned a tire retread shop called, I think it was a Big O Tires, and they retreaded tires. And my father ran the business. Well, my grandfather retired and shut the business down. So left my father with, now searching for a job. So decided to move back, or maybe move to Ohio where my uncle was, his brother. And so there was a closer family knit there.
8:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:18 Speaker 01 So that's the reason why we moved back.
8:19 Billy Corgan? So now you're 13, you're conscious of this, the shift in the family fortunes, maybe?
8:25 Speaker 01 Immediately, immediately. It was like overnight, like one moment to the next.
8:31 Billy Corgan? Did you start working in kitchens around 14? Is that accurate?
8:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, about 14 years old.
8:35 Billy Corgan? And this is country club, right?
8:36 Speaker 01 This, well, at this time, 14 years old, I was still in the small little town and I could only wash dishes. You know, I could only walk there. So I spent, you know, my evenings washing dishes in a small diner for $15 a day.
8:50 Billy Corgan? Were you immediately attracted to the atmosphere of a kitchen?
8:55 Speaker 01 Not immediately. When, when the owner, who happened to be the chef owner of the diner...
9:03 Speaker 01 Uh, he allowed me to start cooking. He allowed me to start peeling potatoes and, and things like that.
9:07 Billy Corgan? That's, that's cool, right?
9:08 Speaker 01 And, and yeah, as a young, as a young guy, you're like, anything to do from get away from doing dishes? I'll do whatever you want me to do. And so that stuff became very fun for me. And, and I started making small challenges with myself, like peeling the cooked potato, uh, trying to hold the skin in its entirety without disrupting it and
9:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:28 Speaker 01 All these silly games.
9:30 Billy Corgan? Had you had an interest in food before that?
9:31 Speaker 01 Never. I mean,
9:32 Billy Corgan? That's funny, yeah.
9:32 Speaker 01 And, and it is because later, later down the road, when, when I tell my family that I want to be a chef, when I realized that this is what I want to do, they all kind of looked at me like, are you crazy? Because I would sit at the dinner table like this for hours and hours and hours like,
9:48 Speaker 01 and wouldn't eat the meal. And there was two, two ways of either finish what you have on the plate.
9:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:54 Speaker 01 Or go to bed hungry.
9:55 Billy Corgan? Was it, you didn't like what was being, okay.
9:57 Speaker 01 Yeah. I didn't like, I didn't like food. That was just, wasn't interested in it.
10:01 Billy Corgan? You see, it was a, was it a consequence maybe of that you were born with a sophisticated palate?
10:06 Speaker 01 No.
10:06 Billy Corgan? Is that?
10:07 Speaker 01 I'd like to think that I would probably err on the side. It was my mom.
10:10 Billy Corgan? When I look back, I feel like I was a music snob at very young. Whatever gift I had for music voiced itself very early on as snobbery about music.
10:18 Speaker 01 Oh, maybe. I mean, I never looked at it that way. I've always looked at it as like, maybe my mom wasn't the best cook.
10:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
10:24 Speaker 01 And rightfully so, she just
10:26 Billy Corgan? But you must have a, I mean, maybe I'm guessing, but I mean, to do what you do, you must have a pretty sophisticated palate.
10:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think so.
10:32 Billy Corgan? Like a sensitivity.
10:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:34 Billy Corgan? Um, so, uh,
10:39 Billy Corgan? you're working in kitchens, but at that point, do you have any sense that there's a, there's a professional life? You're just like a normal kid. You're, you're making some money and
10:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, making money. At that point, I knew like I wanted to, I wanted more than what we had. I wanted more, like this was not my lifestyle. This was not where I wanted to be in, in 10 years. And at fourteen, I'm like, so I'm taking that fifteen dollars a day and just saving it, saving it, saving it, saving it. Because at some point, I wanna, you know, buy a motorcycle to deliver the newspapers quicker, because I also had a paper route.
11:16 Speaker 01 You know, eventually buy a car, because that's gonna get me further away.
11:20 Billy Corgan? Especially in a cold weather state.
11:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:22 Billy Corgan? No car, no, no game, no game.
11:25 Speaker 01 So that's, that's where I was at. And, you know, I never really thought that this was what I was gonna do.
11:30 Billy Corgan? Was there any foreshadowing in the family dynamics, say, between, you know, this kind of, because this tragedy happened when you were nineteen? Because you must have at times reflected back and said, were there signs? Did I see things? Or, or when, when, when your, when your father did kill your mother?
11:48 Billy Corgan? Was it, did it seem to come out of nowhere?
11:51 Speaker 01 It, it didn't come out of nowhere. The irony of it, like in hindsight with most, most things, that stereo system, if we back up to that stereo system, that was like his love. The, I mean, it was a beautiful system. And
12:07 Speaker 01 we had to clean it on Saturday, but to clean it, we weren't allowed to touch it. So clean it, but don't touch it. In a, in a weird way of joking about it, like,
12:17 Speaker 01 don't screw it up.
12:17 Billy Corgan? Okay, right.
12:18 Speaker 01 Don't screw it up. Don't push the buttons. Everything's set to where they're supposed to be at.
12:21 Billy Corgan? Okay.
12:22 Speaker 01 He gave me that system. And the irony of it is,
12:29 Speaker 01 it was right towards the very end of his life. He started giving things away and he helped me move it into my first, my first apartment. And it was just like,
12:40 Speaker 01 for me, like, I was like, very excited. Like, I gotta jam this amazing system out for the first time.
12:44 Billy Corgan? It's certainly my, not my area expertise, but there, there is some sense that when people are thinking about taking their own life, they start giving stuff away.
12:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, that is one of the signs. And not knowing that then,
12:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
12:57 Speaker 01 I certainly looked back at it. He gave me a lot of stuff towards the end, and that was his pride and joy.
13:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:02 Speaker 01 To just give it away.
13:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
13:04 Speaker 01 He's like, I don't need it anymore. What do you?
13:07 Billy Corgan? So, uh, and you can go, I, I, like I said, I'm not trying to jump around the story, because like I said, it's, it's to me, and looking at your life, it, it cast this sort of shadow and, and, and that's not to put the shadow on you. It's just like, how does it not?
13:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:21 Billy Corgan? You know, um.
13:24 Billy Corgan? The circumstance that you get called, there's a hostage situation, the cops pick you up, you don't really totally know what's going on.
13:32 Speaker 01 Right.
13:32 Billy Corgan? They take you to a house down the road and this whole scene plays out.
13:41 Billy Corgan? I mean, am I wrong in thinking you must have replayed that day in your head like a thousand times?
13:47 Speaker 01 Almost every day of my life.
13:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Is it, do you look back and think I could have done this? I should have done that? It's such an extreme circumstance. I think that's why I even struggle for what the right question is, you know?
13:59 Speaker 01 The, you know, the struggle is, um, could I have done something? And, and, and the, the answer is no, I couldn't have. And, but it took a long time to come to those terms because I do know like he was asking to speak with me. But in those situations, he also had to give something up to get what he needed or what he wanted, what he was requesting to have a conversation with me or to even, uh, get a pack of cigarettes from them. There was like, you gotta give something else up. And he had nothing else to give up other than to give my mother, uh, to them. So there was no negotiating at all. It was just really a standoff.
14:40 Speaker 01 So yeah, I, I outplay that in my brain a lot, almost probably every day, I would, I would think.
14:46 Billy Corgan? And then, uh, after this happens, I mean,
14:51 Billy Corgan? sometimes I think about when people go through an extreme circumstance, I always try to think like, what happens the next day when you wake up? And that, you know, it's not a dream, right? It's like, this is a reality and now I have to sort through, you have siblings, you have relatives, you have, now this is your story too.
15:08 Speaker 01 Right.
15:08 Billy Corgan? I mean, here we are, you know?
15:10 Speaker 01 Thirty years later.
15:11 Billy Corgan? And we're talking about it because it's, it's part of your life.
15:15 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah. It, it is a weird wake up the next day moment because, um, in an instant it's gone. Everything that you knew before your first eighteen, nineteen years of my life, just gone, like.
15:25 Billy Corgan? Does it make you question the happy times?
15:29 Speaker 01 I think it makes me um try to embrace the happy times more and and be thankful for those moments because the darker times always outshadow the the happier times. I have to dig deep to find those happy moments.
15:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:43 Speaker 01 And the the harder ones come up so easily.
15:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah. And and did you were you able to eventually make peace with it all or or?
15:50 Speaker 01 Yeah. Well, I think part of writing this book was was the main reason why I wanted to write the book with Jeremy because I knew it was gonna I knew I needed to deal with it, although I've dealt with a lot of I spent thirty years of of trying to figure out all the emotions that I had towards my father, being okay with what he did. And, you know, and then trying to justify and smooth everything out so I can live a normal life.
16:18 Billy Corgan? Sure.
16:18 Speaker 01 And not be.
16:19 Billy Corgan? And then being a parent yourself.
16:21 Speaker 01 Yeah. And how not to bring those things into my my life, my children.
16:26 Billy Corgan? It how old are your kids?
16:29 Speaker 01 Uh nineteen and sixteen.
16:31 Billy Corgan? I knew they were.
16:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:32 Billy Corgan? How do you at some point sit them down and say, by the way, this is part of our family?
16:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:38 Billy Corgan? Story.
16:39 Speaker 01 I had to wait until they were old enough to I felt they could understand it. And also happened to release a documentary of my life called For Grace. And I didn't want my children to either somehow find it on Netflix, or one of their classmates see it and go, hey, your dad and.
16:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:00 Speaker 01 So I had to.
17:00 Billy Corgan? They had to hear it from you.
17:01 Speaker 01 I had to hear I wanted them to hear it from me. It was very important. So we sat down and I I tried to make the environment as comfortable as possible. We just pillows on the bed and just made it just just a loving environment and just kind of walked down the path of what it was.
17:16 Billy Corgan? What was their reaction?
17:19 Speaker 01 You know, I think, you know, they they were crying and we were all crying and and we were trying to, you know, I was trying to make it as happy as possible. I was trying not to cry because I didn't want them to feel I was trying to tell them that I was okay with what with what had happened.
17:34 Billy Corgan? Sure.
17:34 Speaker 01 And that they needed to be okay with it, but it was important for them to understand, you know, where their grandfather and their grandmother are and, you know.
17:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
17:43 Speaker 01 They're not present in their life.
17:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah. So and thank you for being open to talk about that, you know?
17:51 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Yeah.
17:54 Billy Corgan? Was it was it hard in writing the book to go into detail? You know, it's one thing to sort of talk about in a context like this, but like to actually sort of spell it out because it is a story like any other.
18:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, with Jeremy, you know, because we're such great friends, it made it the process.
18:12 Billy Corgan? The ghost writer, is he?
18:14 Speaker 01 He's the actual writer. I should be labeled as the ghost writer because I didn't actually write it. It was hours and hours of conversation like this.
18:21 Billy Corgan? But it's in your voice.
18:22 Speaker 01 It's in my voice. Yeah. And, you know, having such a good friend be able to tell your story made me be able to tell my story with ease, with comfort, with the ability to to be really like an open book and with no judgment, zero judgment from his side. And I was always worried about, you know, I was shameful of my story. I didn't tell hardly anybody through my 30 years of that. I didn't tell anybody. I mean, it was very secretive. I was ashamed of it.
18:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
18:53 Speaker 01 And I had to, until Grace came out, I just kind of buried it.
18:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah. And what's weird about something like that, weird is not the right word, but unfortunate is
19:06 Billy Corgan? I can't remember what the exact circumstance was, but it was one of the first times that I met you in life. And somebody said, they basically sort of, oh, you should know this thing about him. So before I even knew you as a person.
19:18 Speaker 01 Oh, sure.
19:18 Billy Corgan? It becomes this like thing, you know, but curiosity is not the right word, but it's like, it's like, oh, and by the way.
19:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:26 Billy Corgan? You know, and, and I think as humans, you know, if you, if you have any heart, you, you feel empathy, but then you don't really know what to do with that.
19:33 Speaker 01 Absolutely right.
19:34 Billy Corgan? And that's why I said in preparing to talk to you in this context, it's like, how do we? How do I, how do we, how do we sort of put it in context? Because really what I'm interested in is your, is your great gift with food, you know? But it, I can't, because you're an artist in my eyes. How does it not affect your artistry?
19:54 Speaker 01 Yeah. Well, I honestly, you know, I struggled with that for a long time and.
20:00 Billy Corgan? Can you, can you slow that down a little bit and explain how that works?
20:03 Speaker 01 So I had a great conversation with the New York Times,
20:08 Speaker 01 Kim Severson, and she interviewed me a few weeks ago. And she gave me the, to the answer that I was looking for for 30 years as to. You know, this tragedy in my life, I always struggle with the idea of had it not happened, would I be where I am today? And I can't say that I would be. I don't know if I would be. I think everything that happens in life is usually for a reason, and it does go on to shape who you are today.
20:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:40 Speaker 01 And if my parents were still alive, I don't know if I'd be living in Chicago. I don't know if I'd have the drive that I have. I don't know if, you know, if I'd be so successful. And she said, you know, that was their last gift to you. And I never thought of it that way. And it was something that I was looking for. I was looking for the reason.
21:04 Speaker 01 So I think all that energy, I kind of just took what happened and shifted it and full bore focused into my art.
21:15 Billy Corgan? So it's like a singular, a singular focus? Is that inaccurate?
21:22 Speaker 01 I wanted.
21:22 Billy Corgan? Was it the way of, it's like, I got all this stuff I've got to sort through. If I can just focus on one thing.
21:28 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, because I, I didn't want to be alone and I didn't want to go home at night. And I was working and I was already, I already knew I wanted to be a chef.
21:40 Billy Corgan? What better place than a busy kitchen, right?
21:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. So when everybody went home, I didn't want to go home because going home meant I had to face reality.
21:50 Billy Corgan? Wow.
21:51 Speaker 01 And that's hard. So why not just stay and do what I love to do? So let's start creating things. That's, that's where my creative process started was with no one around.
22:01 Billy Corgan? So walk me through this point of, okay, it's the next day. I got to go on with my life here. And, you know, you're still a very young person. And then how do we end up at Charlie Trotters, you know, four or five years later? And, you know, in this community of Chicago, Charlie Trotters, like.
22:19 Speaker 01 He's the god. Yeah.
22:20 Billy Corgan? Legend, beyond legend.
22:21 Speaker 01 Food god. Yeah.
22:24 Speaker 01 That was me making the decision to continue with college and continuing what I started. I've always been a man of my word and I was going to do what I set out to do. And I was going to finish what I want. Once I started, I was going to finish it.
22:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:39 Speaker 01 So I had another year or so left of college and.
22:44 Speaker 01 My focus just became all food, all, everything, everything about food.
22:48 Billy Corgan? Like an obsessive?
22:49 Speaker 01 Obsessive. And then, you know, of course, this is right around the time when the internet was out, starting to come out. And then every single day I would obsessively look up Charlie Trotter to see like new menu ideas, new menu changes. And my friend at the time.
23:03 Billy Corgan? Are you here, that you're here in?
23:04 Speaker 01 No, I'm still in Ohio at this point.
23:06 Billy Corgan? Oh, and you're still in Ohio?
23:07 Speaker 01 Still in Ohio.
23:07 Billy Corgan? Wow.
23:08 Speaker 01 Finishing college. At this point, yeah, I had already spent two weeks at his restaurant. And I knew exact, I knew this is where I wanted to be.
23:17 Billy Corgan? What was it about what, what
23:20 Billy Corgan? he was doing that, that registered in your mind as like a form of the future? Does that make sense the way I'm asking?
23:26 Speaker 01 Yeah. Um, it was for me, it was like the discipline level that was in that kitchen. The, the talent of each cook, the, the precision, the quality of ingredients, just.
23:39 Billy Corgan? If you don't mind a compliment, because I've been in your kitchen a few times. I'm always impressed. And maybe it's, it's the rock star problem, but as someone who's been in, in the music business, I tend to look at people's worlds, not so much with who they are, but who's around them.
23:57 Speaker 01 Yes.
23:58 Billy Corgan? And I'm always impressed that you surround yourself with incredible talent.
24:01 Speaker 01 Right.
24:02 Billy Corgan? So I always see that as a compliment to you. Because if you were insecure, you'd be the king and everybody else would kind of be down.
24:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:10 Billy Corgan? And I'm sure you've seen those kitchens.
24:11 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Yeah, I've been in those kitchens before.
24:14 Billy Corgan? Okay.
24:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:15 Billy Corgan? Again, I don't know about that world. Like I, I'm, it's only an observation.
24:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:19 Billy Corgan? But I'm always impressed by the level of talent that you, every time I've been to your kitchen, it's like you, you've got like an A-team in there with you.
24:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's important.
24:27 Billy Corgan? And you can feel that, again, not my world, but I can feel that pride of ownership in your kitchen.
24:33 Speaker 01 Sure.
24:33 Billy Corgan? So whatever you're bringing, they feel that.
24:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:36 Billy Corgan? And they trust you to take them there because everybody's on their own journey.
24:40 Speaker 01 Right, absolutely. Yeah, you're right.
24:41 Billy Corgan? So anyways, but, but I'm saying it's cool because I've seen it on the other side. If that was your inspiration, I've witnessed it.
24:48 Speaker 01 That's great. That's amazing to hear. Thank you.
24:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if there's a question there, but
24:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, no, no, I don't think there was, but
24:56 Billy Corgan? But so anyway, so. But how do we, how do you end up working with Charlie Trotter, that, that whole? So again, in this town, it's like, that's, that's up until kind of, let's call it your generation brought in this other way of looking at restaurating.
25:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:12 Billy Corgan? The restaurateurs and, you know, you know, the Melman's are obviously the, you know,
25:17 Speaker 01 Huge, yeah.
25:18 Billy Corgan? Huge here and, and have a ton of influence in this community and we do love our food, as you know, here in Chicago.
25:23 Speaker 01 Of course.
25:25 Billy Corgan? People always say, why, why do you think Chicago is such a food town? I guess we got nothing to do for seven months. We're stuck inside. All we got to do is eat and watch football.
25:33 Speaker 01 That's it. That's it.
25:34 Billy Corgan? So, um, how do you kind of work your way into that world?
25:38 Speaker 01 So when I was in Ohio, still in college, my, my good friend, who also was a chef at the time, Regan Coivisto, Regan said, you know, you're obsessed with this guy. Why don't you go work for him? And I'm like, I don't, I don't even know how to get to the guy.
25:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
25:56 Speaker 01 They, they, you know, I've
25:57 Billy Corgan? And there's gotta be, there's gotta be like, I don't know, there's gotta be programs and things by which people would go to
26:02 Speaker 01 Right.
26:03 Billy Corgan? Apprentice or whatever.
26:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:04 Billy Corgan? And you're in Ohio.
26:05 Speaker 01 And I'm in Ohio. So he's like, you have a phone number? I said, yeah, I've got it off their website. He calls him and I was just like, oh my God, what the hell just happened? He called him and he got the right person on the phone. And said, here's what you have to do. You have to come and spend a week at the restaurant, work for free, where they call it a stage. And, you know, that gives us an opportunity to see who you are, um, how you fit in with the team and see if this is where you want to work. So it's kind of a double way of interviewing, my interview, their interview as well. And I went there, I ended up spending two weeks there. I was in total love with it, came back to Columbus, finished school. And the moment I graduated, I moved to Chicago.
26:49 Billy Corgan? That's a cool story.
26:50 Speaker 01 It's like, I had to be here. So I spent the next three and a half years there. Little over three years there.
26:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
26:56 Speaker 01 But.
26:56 Billy Corgan? Did you have a sense then that, okay, this is what I want to do? I mean, you must have, right? You're obsessed now.
27:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:03 Billy Corgan? You're.
27:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, I wanted every, I wanted to know everything about that restaurant. I spent a year and a half in the front of the house. I spent.
27:10 Billy Corgan? Really?
27:11 Speaker 01 The other time in the kitchen. I wanted to know everything. I spent time answering the phones, taking reservations. I wanted to know everything. This restaurant is one of the best restaurants in the country, if not the world. I want to, that's what I want. I want to know everything about it. So I inserted myself in all these positions. I s- that's was so important. It was so, so important.
27:33 Billy Corgan? So this isn't my naivete. What, what do you guys call? You know, like, uh, people ask me, come into Chicago, where should I go eat?
27:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:43 Billy Corgan? And I always recommend that they come see you. And, but I never know what to call it. And, you know, so if, if it's one punter talking to another punter, it's like, they do the 20 course.
27:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:56 Billy Corgan? Dig a menu.
27:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:58 Billy Corgan? Um, but what do you guys call it?
27:59 Speaker 01 I mean, we are a tasting menu. I mean, I always say tasting.
28:04 Billy Corgan? In the early days of alternative music, no one knew what to call it.
28:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:07 Billy Corgan? Right.
28:07 Speaker 01 We call it, I mean, there's some people call it a dig station menu.
28:10 Billy Corgan? Okay.
28:11 Speaker 01 A restaurant. It's a tasting menu restaurant format, whatever you want to call it. We just say, you know, we're, we are a tasting menu format restaurant. We don't do à la carte.
28:21 Speaker 01 Basically, you, you sit down and you, you, we give you the experience and you don't have any other alternatives.
28:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Was there, was there a lot of historical antecedent for that? Cause it seemed around the time you rose and some of your original partners kind of rose in the international, not just as Chicago restaurant scene, but in the international scene. And I started hearing about it.
28:42 Speaker 01 Right.
28:42 Billy Corgan? From all the fancy people here that like to spend money. But point is, is, is it, it suddenly it seemed like kind of appear out of nowhere.
28:50 Speaker 01 Charlie, Charlie introduced it. So Charlie opened his restaurant in 87. And I say he introduced it. He entered, I think he introduced it to the Midwest. There was a couple of restaurants in the West Coast that were doing it. And of course in the East as well in New York. But Charlie introduced it. He opened with an à la carte menu. And then he started shifting it to go on, okay, you pick one, two and three courses. And then it became a tasty menu only, but then it evolved into like three or four different menus. So you had. What they called the grand menu at the time, then they had the vegetable menu.
29:22 Billy Corgan? Sure.
29:23 Speaker 01 And they had the kitchen table menu and then you could riff off of all those and kind of just do your own thing.
29:28 Billy Corgan? But your crew seemed to bring in this other thing and I'm struggling for the right words because I'm not a foodie per se, but it, it was, it was a more radical.
29:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:39 Billy Corgan? Way out, you know, you know, the classic thing somebody would say, and I'm not saying any coming out of your, one of your restaurants. It would be like, I had the bubblegum sushi.
29:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, the more like avant garde style, like molecular.
29:51 Billy Corgan? It became a talking thing in the community.
29:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, the molecular movement around two thousand, two thousand three.
29:59 Billy Corgan? Okay, so that's, that's kind of like. In that timeframe.
30:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, that was, um, I had just left Charlie's at the later end of two thousand three and I moved to a restaurant called, uh, Trio in Evanston. That's where I met.
30:14 Billy Corgan? I ate there, I ate there back in the day.
30:16 Speaker 01 Yeah. So Grant Aketz was the chef there and he was recently from the French Laundry.
30:21 Speaker 01 And he was very much into the molecular movement that was coming out of Spain at the time. And the Ferran Adria brothers were the leading force in that whole movement of molecular gastronomy.
30:33 Billy Corgan? What was your first reaction to that kind of movement? Like, what was your first kind of intuitive take on it?
30:37 Speaker 01 It was super interesting. I mean, it's something we had never seen before and, and it opened up so many possibilities of creativeness.
30:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
30:46 Speaker 01 And, and very thought provoking dishes.
30:51 Billy Corgan? This is totally like again, a naivete question, but like,
30:56 Billy Corgan? when, when you're sourcing like this mushroom from this place, like, how do you like, how do you find that information? Like, is, is it, is it like, is there like talk among chefs like, oh, there's this new place that we're getting mushrooms, right?
31:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:11 Billy Corgan? What's the back channel version of how you figure that out? Are are people from food distribution companies coming to you and saying, check this out because they know you're gonna gonna lead the market?
31:23 Speaker 01 Right. So it's a little bit of both, actually. It's it's chef talk. It's purveyors or farmers coming to the restaurant.
31:30 Billy Corgan? But so when you said chef talk, I was like, because you know what rock people talk? It's just a bunch of shit talk with some information.
31:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's like me talking to my buddy.
31:40 Billy Corgan? I saw a bunch of chefs talking. So I just saw the vision.
31:43 Speaker 01 Majority of it is. And then there's like, oh, yeah, by the way, this guy sells me amazing quail. So it starts that way. But it also, for me, like, it's always been very important about the relationships, relationships with the people and the connection I have with the farmers.
31:58 Billy Corgan? Is it a trust thing that you build up over time? Like, you know, they're not gonna give you something that's inferior.
32:05 Speaker 01 Right.
32:05 Billy Corgan? Because if you're online and you're building these intense menus with, I mean, in a tasting menu, I mean, how many moving parts do you have in that menu?
32:13 Speaker 01 You have 15 courses. Each one of those courses have anywhere from five to 10 different ingredients.
32:19 Billy Corgan? So that makes sense to me. So if you if you're relying on this person for your mushrooms, they can't mess with you because you can't be caught out.
32:27 Speaker 01 Not at all.
32:28 Billy Corgan? And you have people with your restaurant. How how people book out like six, nine months?
32:33 Speaker 01 Three months out, yeah, three months out. But yeah, you're right. It's it is the connection. So the farmer, it is having that relationship, that deep relationship. I mean, I have, I was with Farmer Lee. I've been buying from him since 94. And these are great relationships because he's always going to give me the best product. But then, when he has the neighbor has rhubarb in height of the season, he's saying, we have rhubarb. This lady down the street has the most amazing rhubarb.
33:02 Speaker 01 How many pounds do you want? You know, so it's it's spider webs out over time through all these different people. And you just start connecting the dots. And and not every year that we buy from the same farmers and foragers. You know, we we spread, we spread it out. We have, I mean, we have 200 plus contacts of.
33:20 Billy Corgan? That's what I'm saying.
33:21 Speaker 01 People we get food from. Yeah.
33:23 Billy Corgan? It's intense.
33:24 Speaker 01 But it's it starts with the relationship. So so important.
33:28 Billy Corgan? I know it's not this simple, but. When I've been in your kitchen, usually at the end of a great meal, and you've got all that activity and all those people, how do you even begin to build those teams? Is it same thing? It's just, is it word of mouth? People you trust, he came or she came from this school? Like, how do you begin to build those teams at peak?
33:50 Speaker 01 Sometimes it can come through that avenue, but most of the time it is people arriving at the back door or sending their resume, although we don't really look at the resumes that much. It starts with that moment of having them stashed at the restaurant, spend a week or a few days with us.
34:05 Billy Corgan? You're sensitive to that because that was you.
34:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, and it's so important because it is a great way to interview somebody. Because if you think of like, you know, I can try to relate this to you touring. Like, the first night, the first week is great, and you're like full of energy. But by week two, week three, you're like slowly going downhill. And then by the end, like, you're kind of just over it. We've kind of feel that way with someone who's coming to the kitchen. The first day, great. Second day, great. Third day, the hours are starting to hit them. The fourth day, the hours are really starting to hit them. By day five, it's Saturday night, it's 2:30 in the morning, they got another hour worth of work. How do they, how passionate are they about it now?
34:53 Billy Corgan? You know, you're really making the right point for me because sometimes people will focus on a musician's proficiency on their instrument, which obviously is a huge part of the job.
35:07 Speaker 01 Of course.
35:08 Billy Corgan? But just as much as that conversation on the plane, having a meal and catering, it's that dynamic of the relationship that like, I know you're going to give me your best.
35:17 Speaker 01 Right.
35:18 Billy Corgan? And if you have an off day, I don't suddenly have to start thinking, oh, where are we going? I just know you're just having an off day, or you're having a bad day. There might be something going on at home. You really have to trust that in the aggregate, that person's consistently going to try to show up.
35:31 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
35:32 Billy Corgan? And give you their best. So that makes a lot of sense to me.
35:34 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, so part of that is also making sure that they can gel with the team, you know? Can they communicate with others? Are they not just like this single person that can't work with others?
35:45 Billy Corgan? When you jumped in your, with both feet into this world and, you know, working with Grant, obviously, and then doing your own thing.
35:57 Billy Corgan? Did you have a sense that your particular crowd was ushering in this kind of radical take? Was it, was there any rebellion in it? Or was it was just like, this is where the market's going and this is what's exciting? Was there a sense of a greater thing happening?
36:14 Speaker 01 Well, I always lead back to the community.
36:20 Speaker 01 What I think, we just spoke about Chicago, you know, seven months out of the year. We're forced to be kind of indoors. We have such a great food community in the city that they allow the chefs to kind of do what they want to do. So if you have a voice, and I call it my culinary voice, like I have something to say through my food.
36:43 Speaker 01 They allow me to do it, just as they allow you to do your music through your voice and your interpretation of what you think is great.
36:51 Billy Corgan? I don't know if it's a working class thing or a Midwest thing, but I think the reason so many people end up being successful in New York or LA that come out of Chicago. I think it has a lot to do with that sort of working class ethos, which is like, if you're going to commit, I'll kind of follow you.
37:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:08 Billy Corgan? I don't know what that is.
37:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:09 Billy Corgan? Something that I almost have to think more about.
37:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:12 Billy Corgan? And so that makes sense to me when you say that.
37:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, they do trust you and they do allow you to kind of do and be creative. And I don't, because I often say like, I don't know if Grant would be successful with a Linea. I don't know if I would be successful with Ever and Grace if I put it in New York or put it in LA. I don't know if the cities would react the same, the clientele would act the same.
37:33 Billy Corgan? Honestly.
37:34 Speaker 01 Certainly here.
37:35 Billy Corgan? We're sitting, we're sitting in my, my cafe and I get asked all the time, oh, you should put one of these in New York. And I'm like, I don't think it would work in New York. It's too insider-y.
37:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, right.
37:46 Billy Corgan? We basically build our own culture. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, okay, well then go down the street.
37:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:53 Billy Corgan? It's, it's, I don't know what that is. I mean, us as Midwesterners would almost have to sort of think it through a little bit more.
37:59 Speaker 01 We'd have to get somebody else's opinion from outside.
38:01 Billy Corgan? Psychologist, we'll put a, we'll have somebody else analyze both of us. Well, you both had trauma in your life. That's why you went to the arts. Yeah. So, um.
38:13 Billy Corgan? As you're building up these, you know, these incredible intense menus, is it still for you kind of a 24/7 obsessive thing? Because that's what it feels like to me whenever, you know, I come see you. Do what you do because there's so much detail.
38:31 Speaker 01 You know, I'm lucky enough.
38:33 Billy Corgan? It's gotta be a full-time job, right?
38:35 Speaker 01 It's, it's, it is, but it's not, right? I, I have, I'm sorry, I always go back to music because that's my second love in, in life. I think of it as like writing, being able to write a record four times a year.
38:46 Billy Corgan? Okay.
38:47 Speaker 01 And each season is a new record for me.
38:49 Billy Corgan? So it's a buildup?
38:50 Speaker 01 So it is a buildup. It is a kind of, for me, it's like a place and time where I'm at in my life, where I'm at, where we are seasonally in the menu. So if we're thinking of, you know, we're coming into the fall season now, things certainly get a lot darker and heavier because it gets cloudy and there's less sunshine in the city and.
39:12 Billy Corgan? Yes, I'm nodding my head.
39:13 Speaker 01 We go into these. Yeah, we go into this suppression mode of like, ah, winter time's coming upon us and we know what's all, we just know we have to.
39:20 Billy Corgan? Here comes the stew.
39:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, here we have to get deeper and darker flavors. So we start shifting that way, but, and that reflects everything on the menu.
39:29 Billy Corgan? Okay. But is it, sorry to interrupt you, but is it, is it, is the, explain to me why it's a, why is it not six times a year or, you know, is there, is there, is it, is it a host effect? It's economic, I can only do so much, I have to kind of.
39:46 Speaker 01 We do it four times a year specifically to stay within the season.
39:49 Billy Corgan? Okay.
39:50 Speaker 01 Realistically, I think of seasonality 52 weeks out of the year because things go so fast.
39:57 Billy Corgan? I see.
39:58 Speaker 01 If we, if we have to play in the, the boundaries of what the seasonal is, we stay in that three-month window and.
40:05 Billy Corgan? Okay.
40:06 Speaker 01 Here's our three-month window, the next three months.
40:08 Billy Corgan? And if you prepare a menu for Paul and you still leave yourself room to tweak it as you, as you go?
40:17 Speaker 01 Oh yeah, every day, every day.
40:19 Billy Corgan? So is it, is it your own sense of it? Is it customer feedback? How do you, how do you know, like, I got it, but not quite and I need to?
40:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm glad you asked that because I, I don't rely on any feedback from the guests. And I say this with the most gingerly approach, I don't really care. I don't take it or leave it. There's a million restaurants out there and I, and I only say that because and it doesn't come from an ego standpoint either. It comes from a place of my confidence level and the, and the food that I cook and knowing the behind story of what goes into making each dish, the time that it takes makes each dish before it makes it way to the menu.
41:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah, okay.
41:02 Speaker 01 Sometimes we'll go down the whole path of creating a whole dish that will never see the menu at all, just because it's not good enough. At least we don't think it is.
41:11 Billy Corgan? What would you say we?
41:12 Speaker 01 My chef de cuisine, sous chef, like the key people that I kind of depend on to help curate the menu and help
41:19 Billy Corgan? Okay.
41:20 Speaker 01 taste and, you know, it, it's not just all about my perspective. It's got to be their input as well because they're cooking it every night.
41:28 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:28 Speaker 01 I'm not there every single night.
41:29 Billy Corgan? I saw this, I think it was a clip I was watching of you, but you said you owe it to yourself to be great at something.
41:36 Billy Corgan? Where did, how did you arrive at that? Like, is it, you know, like,
41:41 Billy Corgan? I think it's important. We ask successful people, like, how did you get, how did you arrive at that as a thing? Like, it sounds easy, right? Like, be great at something, but, but
41:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:50 Billy Corgan? but you're, you're a living testament, like.
41:53 Speaker 01 Well, I, I think it's
41:55 Billy Corgan? Let me say one other thing, sorry. What's interesting to me about what you do is, is it is a higher wire act and there's no, like, there's no off day.
42:04 Speaker 01 There is no off day.
42:05 Billy Corgan? Okay, right?
42:06 Speaker 01 We
42:06 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean by that?
42:06 Speaker 01 I do know.
42:07 Billy Corgan? Like, I can have a bad gig and I'll be probably all right.
42:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:10 Billy Corgan? But in your world, there, there is no
42:13 Speaker 01 Five nights a week.
42:16 Speaker 01 We're gone, you know, 60 guests a night. That's 60 people that are going to judge and have an opinion.
42:22 Billy Corgan? And
42:23 Speaker 01 And they all do.
42:28 Speaker 01 I kind of lost my train of thought, but with that.
42:30 Billy Corgan? No, it's just, it's, it's, it's the grind of the gig.
42:35 Billy Corgan? Like you were saying about when people come in, like they gotta really want that grind.
42:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, they do.
42:40 Billy Corgan? Long hours. Like, what's a normal day for you on a workday?
42:45 Speaker 01 I mean, my day is a little different than what their day would be. Their day would be noon to noon, noon to midnight, 1 a.m. My day starts earlier because I'm just that guy. I get up early. But I don't, I'm not at the restaurant till 1:00 in the morning. That's, I'm there till I feel the last.
43:05 Billy Corgan? But even, but even like for your, I mean, a 12, 13 hour grind.
43:09 Speaker 01 That's a day. Yeah, that's a, that's consistently, that's, if, if anything less than that, I feel like it's, I didn't do any work.
43:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
43:16 Speaker 01 And sometimes it's just catching up on emails. It's not necessarily like in the kitchen grinding.
43:23 Billy Corgan? What would you, for someone like me that doesn't really understand food culture? Like, what would you want people to understand about what is like when you have that kitchen? Like, like you said, you got 60 guests, like the kitchen's flying, you got, things gotta be timed. Everything's like, I mean, it's like clock in there.
43:43 Speaker 01 Clockwork, yeah.
43:44 Billy Corgan? What would you want people to understand about that? Wait, I guess maybe the better question would be,
43:51 Billy Corgan? what is so important to you about that level of commitment to food that you want them to understand? Not just like, oh, it tastes good. That's the obvious.
43:58 Speaker 01 Yeah. I, I think because I've made it my life, I've made it who I am. And I think maybe that comes back to what I lost my train of thought on a few minutes ago, which was you have to, you owe to yourself to be great at something.
44:11 Billy Corgan? Okay.
44:12 Speaker 01 And, you know, nobody woke me up every morning and said, get up, go do this, you gotta be great at something. Like, it just became this feeling, this energy within my brain of just like, nobody's gonna ever push you to go and do something. If you're not practicing guitar every day, you're, you're losing.
44:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
44:36 Speaker 01 Muscle memory, you're losing dexterity, you're losing everything. If you're not picking it up, if you're not practicing that.
44:43 Billy Corgan? But what do you want?
44:44 Speaker 01 But no one's pushing you to do that.
44:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but what do you want people to understand? Like, for me, it's a curiosity because I'm not a gourmand, you know what I mean? I'm, I, I mean, I'm just as happy to eat a good sandwich from.
44:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, sure.
44:56 Billy Corgan? My cafe.
44:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I am too.
44:58 Billy Corgan? Right, and I know that about you. So I'm saying, what do you want people?
45:03 Billy Corgan? Sometimes I think it's a, and maybe this is a middle class, midwestern question, you know? It's like, when I was a kid, we used to go to the Art Institute and you'd have somebody stand there and try to tell you why a painting was important.
45:13 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
45:14 Billy Corgan? And your ten years old and go, I don't like the painting.
45:16 Speaker 01 Right, yeah, it doesn't resonate with me.
45:18 Billy Corgan? Right. What is it that you want people to understand about that level of sophistication, that level of dedication to food? What, what is it about that you're so attracted to that you, you, you've made it your life's work to convert that to people?
45:31 Speaker 01 Right. Well, I love the beauty of simplicity. I love the beauty of a sandwich. But I also know, like, we can take that sandwich and elevate it in a hundred different ways tomorrow, today.
45:43 Billy Corgan? So it's like, it's, is it looking for the most sublime experience?
45:47 Speaker 01 It's, yeah.
45:47 Billy Corgan? Is it a form of joy? Is it artistry, all of the above?
45:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, allowing the creativity, the artistry of what you chose to do, um, to kind of shine through. And I guess it's also giving.
46:01 Speaker 01 Showing somebody that you can do it, I guess. Maybe that's what it is. I don't know.
46:04 Billy Corgan? Okay.
46:04 Speaker 01 I never thought about it that way.
46:06 Billy Corgan? Sorry. I appeared to ask you the tough question.
46:08 Speaker 01 That's good. I like that.
46:09 Billy Corgan? No, because it's, it's, because I find sometimes I'm, I, you know, I'm laboring away in the studio over stuff that I just know people don't care about.
46:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:18 Billy Corgan? But it's important to me.
46:19 Speaker 01 But I think it's the subtle things that make your stuff so great that no one else catches and you catch it and that's.
46:27 Billy Corgan? But what, what does that do?
46:28 Speaker 01 Okay, here's a better ways. What does that do for you?
46:31 Billy Corgan? Is it a sense of pride, ownership?
46:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, a hundred percent.
46:34 Billy Corgan? Is it like signing a painting at the end, like, this is my frickin' painting, like, this is what I do?
46:39 Speaker 01 Right. I mean, that's.
46:40 Billy Corgan? If you don't get it, that's cool, but this is my painting.
46:43 Speaker 01 That's who I am. At the end of the day.
46:47 Speaker 01 When I say we all have to be great at something like that's a representation of who you are. Your music is a representation of who you are. My, my food and cuisine is a representation of who I am every single day. And I want to be proud of it. I want to be, I want somebody else to be proud of it as well. And I want them to be excited about it.
47:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I'm, I hate, I hate when people do this to me, so I'm apologizing in advance.
47:13 Billy Corgan? The setup on the question is always, some people say, right? So.
47:20 Billy Corgan? Because in explaining at times, like I said, sometimes people will ask me, I've come to Chicago. I want to have a great, and I'll send them to you. And, but I try to try to explain it, you know, like, you know, they get 25 courses, you know, whatever. And, and for people who don't get it, they kind of go, ah.
47:38 Speaker 01 I know.
47:39 Billy Corgan? So how, not that you need to refute that kind of misunderstanding or criticism, but what would you want them to understand that they, maybe they wouldn't? What, what, what, what, what are they missing if they don't, if it doesn't resonate with them the first time? What are they missing?
47:53 Speaker 01 Think they're missing, uh, you know, the restaurant is built on an experience. And, you know, the tasting menu format has been around for so, so many years that it's, it's ironic that we still have to tell people, educate people on what it is. And when you say, oh, you're going to get 15, 20 courses, but they're only going to be this big and you're going to, everybody immediately thinks that they're going to leave hungry. And there's.
48:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah, somebody I was talking to the other day, we were talking about this style of menu. And they were making a joke about how they went to a hot dog stand afterwards.
48:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's the, that's the running joke. Oh, I'm going to get a piece of pizza on the way home. And I get it, there's a lot of restaurants out there that serve you 10 of these small little bites. And then you're like, okay. The perception of value is way out, out the door. And you leave angry and you leave stopping somewhere else to get something to eat. But it is an experience at the end of the day. That's what we want you to, to enjoy. Not only, it doesn't necessarily have to be something you're celebrating and it doesn't have to be a birthday or anniversary. You know, a lot of people just want to have. Those moments of having somebody take care of them.
49:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:03 Speaker 01 Not having to make any decisions and that's what the tasting menu does for somebody where you walk into the restaurant.
49:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:10 Speaker 01 You don't have any choices to make that night other than do you want to drink or you don't want to drink?
49:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
49:15 Speaker 01 And sparkling or still, you want coffee at the end of your meal or you want tea? Those are really the only, the other thing else is you're kind of in our hands and that's what, that's the beauty of it.
49:25 Billy Corgan? So I'm not sure when this all started and I'm sure there's always been a culture of the chef as rock star. But certainly in the last 20 to 30 years, it's turned into a gig.
49:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is.
49:41 Billy Corgan? You watched it as somebody from outside the system who came into the system and now you've been sort of anointed into that. What's your sort of take on the general idea of the chef as rock star thing?
49:51 Speaker 01 I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't, we're definitely not, we don't live the rock star lifestyle. We certainly don't make the money that the rock stars make.
50:02 Speaker 01 You know, there, I, with the Food Network, when it blew everything up, I think it educated a lot of people. That was not in the food business and they started glamorizing the chef because they could make all this great stuff.
50:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
50:16 Speaker 01 You know, um, so yeah, I was on both sides of it. I've been on both sides where it's, it was never a thing. Well, Julia Child was this.
50:24 Billy Corgan? That was it for us as kids.
50:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, somebody I watched.
50:26 Billy Corgan? Remember Sarah at Live used to do the sketch where Dan Aykroyd made.
50:30 Speaker 01 Exactly. So, you know, we had a handful of them, but there wasn't, not like it is today.
50:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
50:36 Speaker 01 Now it's like every channel, every, everywhere you look.
50:39 Billy Corgan? Do you, do you roll your eyes at some of it? I'm not asking you to be critical of anybody, but you sort of go, oh gosh, this is a bit much.
50:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, a lot of it is. Um, I, I'm not the biggest fan of like the, the game show. The ones that kind of turn it into a real, a reality series of, because it's not, it's not what we do every day. You know, I know there's a level of commitment to the TV and they have to be entertained. And so I, I get that side of it too. So I'm less critical about that. But for me, like I've always taken my craft incredibly serious and.
51:15 Speaker 01 You know, you you see the guys that are winning these competitions and then all of a sudden like they're put on this level of of somebody who spent thirty years in the business grinding to get where I am to somebody who's just an overnight success and
51:30 Billy Corgan? Okay.
51:30 Speaker 01 So they miss everything in between. So I'm not I know my fundamentals and my
51:36 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
51:36 Speaker 01 foundation are so much more honed and
51:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I think that's maybe part of where it gets a little lost in translation to people when you try to say you should try this because most people have never tried like that level of tasting.
51:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
51:52 Billy Corgan? And I think that's part of it is the trendiness of some of that stuff. I think it's confused in their minds.
51:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, you're right.
51:58 Billy Corgan? It's like it's hard to separate. This is the serious version.
52:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, because it's like the TV personality is not really the chef.
52:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:07 Speaker 01 I'm not a TV personality chef. I'm a chef chef.
52:10 Billy Corgan? Have people tried to kind of bring you? I know you've done some television stuff, but I mean, given your place in the culture now, if people try to kind of franchise you?
52:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:20 Billy Corgan? Or made you offers to kind of become that type of person?
52:22 Speaker 01 We've been down that road. And I've done a couple of ones that I felt were the more tasteful ones.
52:30 Speaker 01 I'm just not going to go out and do whatever somebody offers me. I want to make sure it lines with the brand.
52:34 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
52:35 Speaker 01 And aligns with everything that I've worked towards to get where I am.
52:39 Billy Corgan? Is there is there is that just strictly a I gotta keep my quality control and this is my brand and?
52:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that money is attractive, but it's this is where my bread's buttered.
52:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, because at the end of the day, it's Yeah, it is about the brand because I think at the once you start diminishing the brand and it and you start
52:58 Billy Corgan? Can you define your brand at this point?
53:00 Speaker 01 I mean, it's I think it's ultra luxury, high end. We also refined. Yeah.
53:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
53:07 Speaker 01 And it's, you know, something, you know, I put myself out there. If I'm gonna connect with other people, I want it on this. I feel what I feel is the same level of luxuriousness that somebody would pay for a piece of jewelry or you know.
53:20 Billy Corgan? So for the punters in the room like myself, walk me through the Michelin star process because the one thing I do know and and I know you a bit personally and I've met other people on the way. This is the big stress in the business. Is that is that fair to say?
53:35 Speaker 01 It is. Yeah. Yeah, it is.
53:37 Billy Corgan? I remember talking to somebody about how they'd lost a star or something.
53:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:41 Billy Corgan? And they felt it was unfair.
53:43 Speaker 01 It is because.
53:44 Billy Corgan? And how it hurt business. And so just for just somebody watching at home that is interested in what we're talking about, but doesn't have that sort of knowledge. Explain the Michelin star sort of process from somebody who actually lives it.
53:56 Speaker 01 So the process, they shop your restaurant.
54:01 Speaker 01 The entire year, depending, I guess, from what I understand, depending on the level of where you at, where you're at, your restaurant is currently at. And if you're on the verge of achieving more, they'll shop your restaurant more. And, you know.
54:19 Speaker 01 When I started out in the restaurant world, Michelin was not in the US. You know, they've been in the US less than 20 years. And as a young cook, you look to Europe, to the three Michelin stars, like that was the pinnacle chef, was somebody who obtained three Michelin stars because there was.
54:35 Billy Corgan? Wasn't there some legend in like the south of France or something like this? I feel like I'm probably.
54:39 Speaker 01 There are, there are a few legends.
54:41 Billy Corgan? There was somebody that was like.
54:42 Speaker 01 Paul Boulud.
54:43 Billy Corgan? Three stars in some small town or is that, I'm just probably making that up.
54:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're, I mean, they are everywhere. They're, they could be just one in a random town that has like 40 people in it.
54:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I've heard those stories too.
54:54 Speaker 01 Yeah. And it becomes that destination place, right? It becomes like, that's the whole idea where the Michelin came from. It's like, go to this place.
55:02 Billy Corgan? But you, as a restaurateur, do you have to apply to get them to look at you for a Michelin star? Or they just?
55:07 Speaker 01 Open the doors.
55:09 Billy Corgan? Do they, is it, do you know that people are coming in or is it sort of a mystery process?
55:13 Speaker 01 It is a mystery. That's their greatest thing that they say is like, we shop anonymously. It could be. Could be in a two top, it could be a single diner, it could be buried in a six top. A Michelin inspector, it could be the whole table is a Michelin inspectors. You just don't know and.
55:30 Billy Corgan? Does that cause anybody any kind of like detective feel in the back, you know?
55:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, and that's why the restaurants do some of the, what our restaurant do, does the homework on every guest and name that are in the reservations that night because we're trying to search out any weirdness. We call them spiders. We try to search out anybody that has a fake name. You can't find anything on social from them. And it's something that we just pay closer attention to. They could be absolutely nobody and they usually are. But it's, they've done a good job of hiding their identity and. That's curious to us because.
56:04 Billy Corgan? Interesting.
56:05 Speaker 01 You know, that's what they're notorious for is like hiding their identity, all the food critics, they always incognito.
56:13 Speaker 01 So yeah, gaining those stars is something you have to work towards and you have to work towards them every single year. So they're not there for you to keep.
56:20 Billy Corgan? That's the thing, sorry, but that's the thing that's sort of fascinating to me is like, once you get, say, one Michelin star, you don't get to keep that.
56:28 Speaker 01 No.
56:28 Billy Corgan? That's like, is it a year to year process?
56:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, every year they, they come back and.
56:32 Billy Corgan? Is there a date where it's like the stars are announced?
56:35 Speaker 01 But yeah, yeah.
56:36 Billy Corgan? Oh my God, that's gotta be a stressful.
56:37 Speaker 01 It is stressful because you're like, you know, it's usually in November for us in Chicago. And leading up to Chicago, you know, they're shopping. Before, when they were just printing the book before, now it's all digital. Before, there was kind of like, you got a sense of like. All right, well. They gotta. Get it in print, they gotta print the books, they gotta ship all the books, so they're probably done shopping us now. We had that window of opportunity, like. We gotta be on our game.
57:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I get you.
57:06 Speaker 01 Cause. Now we can kind of relax a little bit. You know, you're not shopping, we just received the awards, but.
57:11 Billy Corgan? So fascinating.
57:12 Speaker 01 It is, it's, it is like you have to be on every night, every table, we don't know.
57:16 Billy Corgan? That's what I mean about the, you can't have a night off.
57:19 Speaker 01 It's hard to, yeah.
57:20 Billy Corgan? That level of expectation.
57:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's the consistency that they're looking for. They want to know like.
57:27 Speaker 01 They had a phenomenal meal tonight. If they come back in three weeks or even tomorrow night, is it going to be the same experience or we, were we just like. Hitting everything tonight, you know?
57:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah, because it's like a gig, right?
57:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:40 Billy Corgan? With all those moving pieces, there's just nights where it just doesn't.
57:42 Speaker 01 Sometimes it doesn't work.
57:43 Billy Corgan? It's just one of those things.
57:46 Billy Corgan? I'm asking this semi jokingly, but. What's your feel on, on Gourmands? And. I would define Gourmands as people who are like. Super foodies.
57:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:55 Billy Corgan? Like my wife's a foodie snob. And you guys talk that language, whatever that is, you know?
58:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:01 Billy Corgan? But like the Gourmand is sort of a different thing.
58:03 Speaker 01 It is.
58:04 Billy Corgan? I, I have one friend who's a Gourmand and they will literally get on a plane, fly to another country. Get on a train to go to some. Village in God knows where. To eat at a Michelin star restaurant. That is mind boggling.
58:18 Speaker 01 It is, it is. When, when we got our third star. It changed the entire dynamic of our dining room. It was. All of a sudden it was. Everybody else but Chicagoans.
58:32 Billy Corgan? Really?
58:32 Speaker 01 And they, most of them did not speak English. And they were coming in for one or two nights, hitting one or two restaurants and disappearing again.
58:41 Billy Corgan? Wow.
58:42 Speaker 01 And it was like that for years. And just the Gourmands, it's those people that just travel. They want to see the newest three star restaurant. They want to see.
58:53 Billy Corgan? Are they a more demanding customer? Or in any ways they're your greatest audience? How do you?
59:01 Speaker 01 I think they're a little bit of both. I think the, the ones that are demanding are also some of our greatest clientele, because it keeps us, pushes us.
59:10 Billy Corgan? Okay.
59:10 Speaker 01 It continues to make sure we're on top of things.
59:13 Billy Corgan? In my world, we call them super fans.
59:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:15 Billy Corgan? They're the ones that know the B side and.
59:18 Speaker 01 Exactly.
59:18 Billy Corgan? I played this song once in.
59:21 Speaker 01 Right.
59:21 Billy Corgan? Two thousand nine.
59:24 Speaker 01 Right. Yeah, the same ones.
59:25 Billy Corgan? Okay, this has just popped in my head. You've got to have people that find you on the street and they want to tell you how to book your menu. There's got to be that guy or girl.
59:35 Speaker 01 How to?
59:35 Billy Corgan? Am I imagining that?
59:37 Speaker 01 How to book the menu?
59:38 Billy Corgan? Or like, hey, you know, A to your restaurant?
59:41 Speaker 01 Yes.
59:42 Billy Corgan? And you really should.
59:43 Speaker 01 Yes.
59:44 Billy Corgan? There's got to be that.
59:45 Speaker 01 There's always somebody, there's always some, even, even on a nightly basis, there's somebody that has like zero filters. And, and then it just comes out and you're just going, okay. It's the weirdest thing, I know you've experienced it too. It's the weirdest feeling. Like, I'm sorry, but I spent thirty some years cooking food and you're telling me like.
1:00:08 Billy Corgan? I had an experience the other day where somebody, I can't remember what it was. It was like they started, oh, I was outside a train station somewhere in, in Europe. And I met a fan on the street and they, they said, oh, I'm coming to your show tonight. And they said, can we take a picture? I took a picture. So as we're taking a picture, a guy goes, hey, are you going to play these songs tonight?
1:00:35 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:00:36 Billy Corgan? And I go, you know, as long as we're standing here, do you want to write out the setlist?
1:00:40 Speaker 01 Right, exactly. You want to just write it for me?
1:00:43 Speaker 01 So bizarre. It is so bizarre. Yeah.
1:00:47 Billy Corgan? Okay, last little bit.
1:00:50 Billy Corgan? And by your own admission, you know, what you're doing is is is this upper, upper tier of of food and and service. And and I think it's worth saying, as somebody who's eaten at your restaurants many times, it's not just the food, the services exemplary. Your staff is fantastic and everyone's always so great. It's a it's a wonderful experience, not just to dine, but to also be treated so well and and looked after.
1:01:17 Billy Corgan? I know you have, you know, during the pandemic, you opened your hamburger spot. But like, what's your thought on this? Does the does the super high level food community have any duty to serve the masses? Does it make sense?
1:01:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:32 Speaker 01 I I think I think the interest, I can only speak for myself. I think the interest starts with, I love being able to cook at that level. And I know it's certainly hits a certain clientele and and it limits our restaurant, right? But we're fortunate enough to be serving 60 people a night and doing what we do.
1:01:56 Speaker 01 But I also have this other interest that, yeah, I want something less demanding. So that gives me the opportunity to open places like Rev Burger or After that is.
1:02:08 Billy Corgan? Sorry, because because for people would know, talk a little bit about the the burger joint you opened during the pandemic. Because I think that's a great story.
1:02:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, we we were in a place where most businesses where we had just opened ever. I mean, we were, well, pandemic hit and we were in mid construction still. So we had to figure out a way that how are we going to get these doors open? Nobody knew what was going on. Kept chugging along as if, you know, this was going to go away quickly. Of course, it didn't.
1:02:38 Billy Corgan? Two weeks to flatten the curve.
1:02:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. So then we were fortunate enough to open the doors and we got, I think, three. Three months underneath our belt and then the city came back and shut us back down. The entire city down.
1:02:53 Billy Corgan? We had the same experience here.
1:02:54 Speaker 01 So now we're, we're sitting with, you know, 50 people and employees that now we're
1:03:00 Billy Corgan? By the way.
1:03:00 Speaker 01 Obviously responsible for.
1:03:03 Billy Corgan? Tell me if I'm wrong. You got, you got this A team around you. If you let them back out in the market, they're going to go find another job.
1:03:10 Speaker 01 They're gone.
1:03:10 Billy Corgan? They're not going to go sit at home.
1:03:11 Speaker 01 You're right. You're right. So how do we, how do we pay these guys? Because yeah, we had a great amount of people we didn't want to lose. Like we're just starting.
1:03:21 Billy Corgan? I, I'm recalling one conversation we had once, but it, what really struck me about it was how much you cared to make sure that your employees stayed working.
1:03:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:30 Billy Corgan? That was part of your inspiration. Wasn't just like, what am I going to do? You were like, I owe it to these people to kind of
1:03:35 Speaker 01 Hundred percent.
1:03:35 Billy Corgan? Keep us together.
1:03:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's, that's a heavy burden to sit on your shoulders when you, you know, because a lot of them has, they have family and children and
1:03:43 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:44 Speaker 01 They have to provide for themselves and we just now open and we're only three months old and now we're closed. What do we do? So we pivoted really quickly with this burger plate concept called Rev Burger. And we started serving them out of the restaurant because at the time that's all we had. So night after night.
1:04:00 Billy Corgan? Then it took off.
1:04:01 Speaker 01 Then it took off. It was, it was phenomenal. I mean, we were selling, selling out of burgers every single night. It was
1:04:06 Billy Corgan? And the idea was the greatest burger you've ever had, right? So I'm a vegan, so I'm
1:04:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:09 Billy Corgan? I'm jealous of all this.
1:04:10 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, it was, for me, it was like, I didn't want, everybody kind of expected a fancy, oh, chef burger and like, no.
1:04:17 Billy Corgan? But there's no way you're making a bad burger.
1:04:18 Speaker 01 I'm not doing that. Like, I just want like, a great, simple burger. That's it.
1:04:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:23 Speaker 01 And I don't even eat burgers that much.
1:04:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:25 Speaker 01 It's like rarity that I will have a burger. But I felt like if you Google very quickly, like the highest food quantity people eat hamburgers and pizza.
1:04:37 Billy Corgan? Wow, this is just
1:04:38 Speaker 01 It's like a no brainer. Like, let's do it. So, so we did the burger place and then we finally got to a place where we moved that across the street into a, in a building where we kind of
1:04:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:49 Speaker 01 Did a standalone and
1:04:50 Billy Corgan? I think it's just such a cool thing.
1:04:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:51 Billy Corgan? Okay, last question.
1:04:54 Billy Corgan? If if the early 2000s ushered in, at least in American food culture, this idea of the tasting menu and and, you know, the rise of the chef rock star, what is the future of food at that level? You have, you must have another vision in there. Or or or is this top speed? And yes, you can change the food, but like, this is it. Doesn't make, is there, is there, is there a different thing that can be had?
1:05:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, there is, and
1:05:23 Billy Corgan? Are we 3D food? I mean, like, what is the, like, what is, what is the, what is the chef chat shit talk in the back? You know?
1:05:30 Speaker 01 Well, I think it's elevating the casual dining, elevating the fast food portion of it. Because I think what we see trending is always when we hit the lows of lows countrywide, worldwide, is that
1:05:48 Speaker 01 the ones that survive are the upper echelon, because there's always money to be spent there. And then the fast food chains, they're always going to win because it's
1:05:57 Billy Corgan? The middle is vulnerable.
1:05:58 Speaker 01 The middle is vulnerable. The middle is always the most vulnerable, because you don't really need to go out and have a nice meal.
1:06:04 Billy Corgan? Well, and there's always going to be another Italian joiner.
1:06:06 Speaker 01 Exactly. So those are the ones that suffer. So everybody is pushing for this fast casual concept.
1:06:13 Billy Corgan? I certainly would, as a vegan, I certainly would love to see a higher end vegan fast food, if that's any, I mean, we do a version of that here at my cafe, but where it's not a chain, you know?
1:06:25 Speaker 01 Right.
1:06:25 Billy Corgan? Or something that's franchisable.
1:06:28 Speaker 01 Exactly right. And that's something I think is a heavy focus in worldwide. Well, maybe not worldwide, but at least in in the US.
1:06:35 Billy Corgan? It certainly seems doable that if you wanted to make a high qual, like, like with your hamburgers, if you were able to work it out where the quality level was consistent. I certainly for middle America with how much, how many people we have that are eating poorly. If you could up the grade of what they're eating
1:06:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:53 Billy Corgan? and and, you know, the digestive part of it all, where everybody would benefit and have a better experience.
1:06:59 Speaker 01 Right.
1:07:00 Billy Corgan? Because for many people, and because we grew up in that world, working class families, I mean, they just don't have the time sometimes, you know?
1:07:07 Speaker 01 The time or the or the finances to do that. I mean, that's why I think a lot of them lean towards the fast food, because you can feed your whole family for 20 bucks. But if you try to go to the grocery store? You're gonna get three things.
1:07:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:07:21 Speaker 01 At least now it's a if you try to get anything healthy for a family for $20, you're not you're not even
1:07:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:07:26 Speaker 01 A loaf of bread and.
1:07:29 Billy Corgan? But there's no.
1:07:30 Speaker 01 Not much more.
1:07:31 Billy Corgan? I'm I'm sorry, I'm just sticking on it for a second. There's no, I don't know, is there like? It's like when you go to like Disney World and they do like futuristic food like is there any futuristic food that we should know about? Not like not like Dippin' Dots, you know what I mean? Like it's gotta be.
1:07:48 Speaker 01 I don't know. I think there's always.
1:07:49 Billy Corgan? Like I saw this, I saw this clip where you were um.
1:07:55 Billy Corgan? You were shaving tuna.
1:07:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:57 Billy Corgan? And then freezing it and putting it in like curly Qs.
1:08:02 Billy Corgan? Is there some new technology that we should know about?
1:08:06 Speaker 01 No, we you know, we we explored that in the early 2000s with the molecular side of it, right? That and I think people got tired of that so quickly. Like, give me just real food. Like, I don't want your smoke and mirrors and and you're giving me something that's orange and you're calling it orange, but it tastes like a
1:08:25 Speaker 01 Granny Smith.
1:08:25 Billy Corgan? I've had a few. I've had a few of those. Yeah.
1:08:27 Speaker 01 You know, they're trying to trick your brain to eating beets.
1:08:30 Billy Corgan? It's fun, but it's it's a my opinion is some who eats those types of places sometimes, it's fun, but it's like a one time.
1:08:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're doing it one time and you're done. That's it.
1:08:41 Billy Corgan? Like an amusement park ride. It's like.
1:08:43 Speaker 01 Right.
1:08:43 Billy Corgan? Well, that was fun.
1:08:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't need to go on the velociraptor six times in a row.
1:08:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
1:08:48 Speaker 01 It's not happening.
1:08:50 Billy Corgan? Okay, well, I need to do I do I need to do my research. There's gotta be something.
1:08:53 Speaker 01 I don't know if there is anything. I'm not sure.
1:08:55 Billy Corgan? Well, you would know. That's kind of why I'm asking you.
1:08:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it's a lot of the chefs are.
1:08:59 Billy Corgan? Do people do people show up at your door and sort of pitch you on new technology?
1:09:04 Speaker 01 They they pitch their ingredients on stuff that they're doing with technology.
1:09:09 Billy Corgan? Does a guy show up with like a machine and like this is the.
1:09:12 Speaker 01 No, I haven't had any of that in a long time. It's been a long time. There are new stuff that's out there that.
1:09:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:09:18 Speaker 01 You know, before like what do you call those machines that spin super quick?
1:09:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:09:25 Speaker 01 In a doctor's office.
1:09:28 Billy Corgan? Like they spin blood or whatever.
1:09:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. So, so five years ago, that wasn't available to a cook.
1:09:34 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:09:35 Speaker 01 Or to a restaurant, but now they call it a Spenzol.
1:09:38 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:09:38 Speaker 01 And I guess it's been longer than five years, but it's a machine that you can take a puree. Um, let's just call it strawberry puree. And you put it in there and then it just spins at RPM rate and it extracts. So you can get a beautifully clear strawberry juice, water, whatever you want to call it. And then the pulp is, is also incredibly intense.
1:09:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:00 Speaker 01 But it's all red and.
1:10:01 Billy Corgan? That sounds kind of cool.
1:10:02 Speaker 01 It's fun. I mean, there's a lot of applications that you can go down the different paths with it from the cocktail world to the food world and achieve a lot of different things like, you know, distillation is another one that people are messing with a lot now.
1:10:15 Billy Corgan? What's distillation?
1:10:16 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, you could literally take water and dirt and put it under vacuum. And as you heat it up, it starts to vaporize and then it goes through it same way they make alcohol, they distill it. And it drips down this clear water that tastes like dirt. I mean, that's a bad example, but any food you want in there, you could do all the hot peppers, right? You could do the habaneros and all this stuff and it'll get the flavor without the spice and the. Oh, I guess. So you can really get incredible flavor through things like that, that are like really, really, really concentrated. That then the chef can add or to a drink or just little bits. Things like that. Those are, I mean, those are always fun to.
1:10:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:58 Speaker 01 Introduce into the menu.
1:10:59 Billy Corgan? All right. Well, I think we end on it tastes like dirt at this.
1:11:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:03 Billy Corgan? We talked to all this high flute and stuff.
1:11:05 Speaker 01 Thank you, Chris. Thank you.
1:11:06 Billy Corgan? I hope you enjoyed it.
1:11:07 Speaker 01 Pleasure. Thank you.
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