Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Sharon Osbourne | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode Billy Corgan sits down with the iconic Sharon Osbourne—manager extraordinaire, TV personality, and the formidable force behind Ozzy Osbourne’s enduring career.
Sharon opens up about her incredible life in show business, starting with childhood memories of her father, notorious music impresario Don Arden, and all the mischief and magic that came with growing up around rock legends like Gene Vincent, Little Richard, and the Small Faces. Billy and Sharon also dive deep into the early days of Black Sabbath: from Ozzy’s first London gigs and sweaty club shows to the challenges and triumphs that reshaped heavy metal forever.
From the business battles that tested Sharon’s mettle, to the behind-the-scenes stories of how she helped Ozzy break away from an impossible contract to forge one of the most successful solo careers in rock, they cover near-disasters and triumphant comebacks, all fueled by Sharon’s fearless determination and her unwavering belief in the power of music.
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Transcript 15,515 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:30 Speaker 01 I'm not happy at the way the industry's run.
0:34 Billy Corgan? Okay. I love this part.
0:37 Speaker 01 Never said this to anyone. He got offered to go and read for...
0:45 Billy Corgan? And you said no?
0:46 Speaker 01 I said no.
0:46 Billy Corgan? What's your sort of first impression? Did you have an impression of him, the band? Just put me in the room a little bit.
0:52 Speaker 01 Well, it was packed. It was sweaty. When it started out, I'm like, what the hell is this? I can remember my best friend, who is an agent, said to me, "You can't let this go out. This is disgraceful. You cannot. You've got to stop it." And I'm like, oops, too late.
1:10 Billy Corgan? Too late.
1:13 Billy Corgan? So, I've read a lot of biographies about musicians that were born in a post-war Britain. This kind of, you know, there were still bomb sites and kids playing and homes that had been, you know, ripped out of the ground and stuff like that. Do you have memories like that? Is that... I guess I'm asking a fair question about what you remember about post-war Britain.
1:35 Speaker 01 Yeah. In fact, the house where I grew up, we moved from there. So, from 1 to 12, I lived in a house that right behind was still bomb sites. Even when I left at 12, there were still bomb sites.
1:53 Billy Corgan? And what did people tell you? Here in America, it was always the Great Depression. That's what you always heard about. You heard about World War II, but World War II didn't happen here.
2:03 Speaker 01 Right.
2:04 Billy Corgan? It was about grandpa went overseas and then we didn't want to talk about what he saw, that type of stuff. But of course, Europe lived in the sight of the war. So what did that feel like and what did people tell you about the war?
2:18 Speaker 01 Everything was related to the war. There were even, I can remember as a child, there were gas masks hanging as you came into our house where you'd hang your coat, there were gas masks hanging.
2:29 Billy Corgan? Still?
2:30 Speaker 01 Yeah. And there were air raid shelters at the bottom of our garden.
2:35 Billy Corgan? Wow.
2:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:37 Billy Corgan? Did that leave an impression on you in any way? I'm just curious.
2:40 Speaker 01 Um, yeah, because we all, I mean, we all played on the bomb sites. It was right at the back of our house. There was a whole street that had gone.
2:50 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:51 Speaker 01 And all the kids in the area, you know, it was the time where you did play in the streets.
2:57 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
2:57 Speaker 01 And we would always be there and too with my husband, he, he too played on bomb sites.
3:04 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:05 Speaker 01 And it was just very much a part of our, of our lives. It was, it was, um, oh, you killed Jesus, you started World War II.
3:16 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:17 Speaker 01 Cause being a Jew, it was like, you very much got.
3:21 Billy Corgan? Ah, I never thought about it that way.
3:23 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
3:24 Billy Corgan? When I was a kid, I heard the, you know, if you, we didn't have as many Jewish classmates in where I grew up. But you know, the one kid that was, that said, you killed Jesus.
3:32 Speaker 01 That's right.
3:33 Billy Corgan? We know we even knew what it meant.
3:34 Speaker 01 No, but you used to see it.
3:36 Billy Corgan? Heard it, yeah.
3:36 Speaker 01 And I used to hear it and go, this guy, Jesus.
3:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
3:41 Speaker 01 Wow.
3:42 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Yeah, because I was thinking about it and knowing I was gonna talk to you. Because obviously with Sabbath and Ozzy's music, you do feel that.
3:55 Billy Corgan? Growing up in the horror of war. I mean, War Pigs is one of the great anti-war songs of all time. You know, it's in the lyric. And even, you know, the American and UK fascination with comic books and this idea of self-empowerment, superheroes, and fighting the Nazis and all this type of stuff, Captain America. But I thought, you know, it didn't strike me that it was part of your story that I know about, but I thought it must have affected you, and it certainly affected your family.
4:23 Speaker 01 Very much. And there was this guy called Mosley, and he was a sir, and he was a Nazi. And after the war, he was still hanging around in England.
4:40 Billy Corgan? Oh, wow. Was he a British subject?
4:43 Speaker 01 British, yeah. Very, very well-spoken. Used to hang out with the royal family. One of his bestest friends in the world was the king that abdicated.
4:54 Billy Corgan? Right.
4:55 Speaker 01 And they ended up living near each other in France. So they were always buddy-buddies. And he was a huge Nazi and used to give rallies everywhere in England. And my dad used to go and... There would be fights all the time because the Jewish people would go.
5:17 Billy Corgan? This is pre-war?
5:19 Speaker 01 After.
5:19 Billy Corgan? After, too?
5:20 Speaker 01 After, yeah.
5:21 Billy Corgan? Wow, I don't know how anybody could defend that "after," but...
5:24 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Beat time.
5:26 Billy Corgan? This always reminds me of that famous Monty Python skit where Hitler is Hilter. It's John Cleese, and he's like, he's running for local council. You know, there's that funny... Anyway, sorry.
5:38 Speaker 01 They're the best. I mean, the funniest.
5:44 Billy Corgan? I want to talk about your dad, but there's not a ton of information about your mother. And, you know, again, we're in this world of information. There's so much information readily available, but if you want to dig deeper, it just goes into nothing.
5:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
5:57 Billy Corgan? And so I found some pictures of your mother in sort of ballerina costumes and her being a ballerina, and even some insinuation that you, too, wanted to be a ballerina.
6:05 Speaker 01 I did, yeah.
6:06 Billy Corgan? But tell me, like... Was your, was your mother like a vaudevillian, as what we would say here?
6:11 Speaker 01 Absolutely, and her mother was a choreographer.
6:15 Billy Corgan? Okay.
6:16 Speaker 01 And my mom was a dancer, so she would be in my, um, grandmothers would get troops of girls and put them out on different.
6:24 Billy Corgan? Circuits?
6:25 Speaker 01 Circuits.
6:25 Billy Corgan? Ah, yeah.
6:26 Speaker 01 And, um, so my mom was a dancer, her mother was a choreographer dancer. And, um, my mom married a musical conductor.
6:38 Billy Corgan? Okay.
6:39 Speaker 01 And he was very well known, apparently. And the marriage didn't last, she had a son and a daughter.
6:46 Billy Corgan? Okay.
6:47 Speaker 01 With her first husband. Divorced, and in those times, nobody would get divorced. You were like, oh.
6:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:54 Speaker 01 You know, she must be a bad woman. And she met my father, who at this time was a singer.
7:01 Billy Corgan? Right. I have heard recordings of your father, I went out of my way. I never knew he sang, I mean, I certainly know his, uh, legacy in music, but, um, not a bad voice.
7:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, he had a good voice, and he, um, what did you hear, Sunrise Sunset?
7:16 Billy Corgan? Heard that, I tried to find him, there was some insinuation that he kinda did like an Elvis imitation record, but I couldn't find that.
7:23 Speaker 01 No.
7:23 Billy Corgan? Okay.
7:24 Speaker 01 No, he was very much, um.
7:26 Billy Corgan? Like a crooner?
7:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:28 Billy Corgan? Right.
7:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, and so, they married, after six weeks, they got married.
7:32 Billy Corgan? Right, so it was kind of a love at first sight type of thing? So, I'd rather ask you than sort of poke around with what I read, but tell me about your father's pre-war life, cause there's some sense that he too was a bit of a vaudevillian comic.
7:48 Speaker 01 He was.
7:49 Billy Corgan? Acting, can you, can you illustrate that a little bit?
7:51 Speaker 01 Okay, before, he wanted to be a cantor, and he was brought up very religious, very religious Jew. And, um.
8:03 Speaker 01 He trained, did all the training and then just decided, no, I wanna be an entertainer.
8:10 Billy Corgan? Wow.
8:11 Speaker 01 And so he used to do impressions and sing.
8:17 Billy Corgan? Right. The things I saw is that he did impressions of like Al Jolson.
8:22 Speaker 01 Yes, he did.
8:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:24 Speaker 01 He did, yeah.
8:25 Billy Corgan? Did you think, it's hard because obviously his legacy in music as a manager is what people talk about. But did you think he had talent himself as a performer?
8:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, he did. And I can remember, like, as a baby, baby, after the war,
8:45 Speaker 01 my father would put packages together and he would go and entertain the troops, the American troops, all over the world. And so my brother and I would go and we'd watch him. I mean, we were always together traveling. And yeah, I grew up in a lot of American bases all over Europe.
9:08 Billy Corgan? I didn't know that about you.
9:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:10 Billy Corgan? So, I don't wanna make assumptions, but he changed his name, Harry.
9:15 Speaker 01 He was Herschel Levy, Harry Levy.
9:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:18 Speaker 01 And he couldn't get any work. And so he changed it to Arden.
9:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah. That's such a painful thing, you know, when I think back.
9:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:29 Billy Corgan? That people had to change their name.
9:30 Speaker 01 You have to deny what you are.
9:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
9:35 Billy Corgan? So, you're born basically into show business. Did you feel that? Does that, or, cuz I, you know, I think, you know, my father was a musician. I just remember being a kid, like, there were always people around. You know, people in the house, people in the basement getting stoned. It was just part of my life. It was normal to me. But looking back, I realize why to other kids in the neighborhood, it was very exotic. Did you, did you feel that way too?
9:59 Speaker 01 The same thing, Billy. It was like, we didn't have birthday parties for us and things like that in the house. Cuz it was a house where work was going on all the time.
10:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
10:11 Speaker 01 So it was an intrusion. And we fitted in and we knew how to behave, but there weren't kids coming in and out of our house, never. And the same thing, musicians coming in and out and other agents and this and that.
10:28 Speaker 01 You know.
10:29 Billy Corgan? So what was your sense of it then? And I guess what I'm saying is like, what was your sense of the music business then? Because if you had gone on to be, say, an actor, it would be relevant in a way, but you end up becoming into that same world.
10:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was, we didn't mix with anybody unless they were in the industry.
10:50 Billy Corgan? Wow.
10:51 Speaker 01 That's the way it was.
10:52 Billy Corgan? Was it because, because it was the people you choose to associate with? Or there was, and I know back, and I was talking about the seventies, people treated anybody in the music business as less than. There was a feeling that, you know, my father was doing something untoward by being a musician.
11:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, get a proper job.
11:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that was always, my father complained his whole life that my, my step-grandmother had once told him, "When are you gonna get a real job?"
11:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
11:19 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
11:19 Speaker 01 And other people, yes, would think, "Oh, they're, they're odd, you know, a bit extreme, don't wanna mix with them." But we always kept within what my mother and father were doing.
11:33 Billy Corgan? Where do you think your father's love of the business came from?
11:38 Speaker 01 He loved music. He just loved music. And that was his whole life, and he could read and write music.
11:48 Billy Corgan? Okay.
11:49 Speaker 01 And it's very rare for when he did become a manager, for the manager to read and write music.
11:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
11:55 Speaker 01 And the musicians that were coming up then, not many of them could.
12:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
12:01 Speaker 01 And my father could talk in technical terms to other musicians.
12:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah, because the stories are legion about your father's kind of way of doing business. But then, in the same breath, there was like Kenny Jones or something talking about, he was so charismatic.
12:16 Speaker 01 Very charismatic. He, because being an entertainer, he carried that with him all the time, and he was very dramatic. And when he would walk in a room, you'd notice this
12:30 Billy Corgan? Sure.
12:31 Speaker 01 because of the presence that he exuded, and he, he was very, very charismatic.
12:36 Billy Corgan? Was, was Gene Vincent like his first kind of really big act that he managed? Would you point to somebody before that?
12:41 Speaker 01 No, it was Gene. It was Gene.
12:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah, because, um...
12:47 Billy Corgan? I remember seeing David Bowie perform, actually on his last tour. I don't, I think David knew then he was sick.
12:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:55 Billy Corgan? And did this kind of last tour, but he didn't tell anybody until later. But I remember he, and he was very chatty in a way that he was usually wasn't on a stage. And he told a story very deliberately about how seeing Gene Vincent perform around the time your father would have been managing him, basically in his mind created the Ziggy Stardust character. And that the way Ziggy stood on stage was a complete emulation because Gene Vincent had this weird motorcycle accident.
13:22 Speaker 01 Yes.
13:22 Billy Corgan? He tells this whole story on stage.
13:25 Speaker 01 I never have heard that story.
13:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah, isn't that cool?
13:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:28 Billy Corgan? Because that goes right back to your father's.
13:31 Speaker 01 He had a bolt between the knee,
13:35 Speaker 01 either side of his leg, and it went under his.
13:37 Billy Corgan? Like a booted brace or something?
13:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was two metal rods. I mean, it was really bad. And he, he'd been, he was really the first rock star that came up. He was, he was unbelievable.
13:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah, so.
13:55 Speaker 01 The first guy I ever saw wear black leather.
13:59 Billy Corgan? Shades of Things to Come, right? So you're, I think, 8'10", around this time. So what's your impression of that world at this point? I mean, you're old enough to know, okay, this is dad's business. These are people, like, what's your impression? Because I always like to ask people like how they felt in the time. Because obviously we know Gene Vincent is a legend. Rock and roll has a lot of debt to Gene Vincent and Elvis and these great pioneers. But at the time, you're just a little girl and there's Gene Vincent like at the office or.
14:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:30 Billy Corgan? You know, what was your thought about somebody like that? Did you, did you see him as, as having a different type of charisma? Or did it strike you, I guess, is what I'm trying to say?
14:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, because he had a very strong accent. He had a very strong American accent.
14:43 Billy Corgan? Was it like a Brooklyn or I don't, I don't know his?
14:46 Speaker 01 No, it was like, he, he would like slide his words. And with the boos too, he had a very slurry accent. Slow, he would speak very slowly.
15:00 Billy Corgan? So in growing up in this musical family, who were some of the musi, who were some of the musicians or artists that you liked? Even if they weren't managed by your father, like.
15:09 Speaker 01 Oh, it was all the people that my dad, I mean, I got to see.
15:16 Speaker 01 Amazing, incredible artists as a child. And knowing they were special, but then as time gone by, how special.
15:26 Billy Corgan? Ah, I see.
15:28 Speaker 01 Real.
15:28 Billy Corgan? Can you name some names? I'm just curious.
15:29 Speaker 01 Jerry Lee Lewis. James Brown in the early days, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, who was... I always kept in touch with him.
15:40 Billy Corgan? Really?
15:41 Speaker 01 Always kept.
15:42 Billy Corgan? Did he always know that you guys knew each other all those years?
15:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, met Ozzy and the whole thing, yeah.
15:47 Billy Corgan? That's so cool.
15:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, the Everly Brothers, adored them.
15:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
15:53 Speaker 01 Brenda Lee, my dad managed Brenda Lee for a while. Stayed in touch with her.
15:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I just read Graham Nash's book and he talked about standing on the stairs outside of some English hotel where he got to meet the Everly Brothers. And how that changed the course of his life, just for them to listen to him and give him that two minutes of like.
16:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:13 Billy Corgan? You know, it's such an interesting thing because.
16:16 Speaker 01 It's, sorry for interrupting.
16:17 Billy Corgan? No, no, I want, I'm here to hear from you, not from me.
16:21 Speaker 01 Sam Cooke.
16:24 Speaker 01 He was the one that stood out for me.
16:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
16:26 Speaker 01 I adored watching him perform.
16:29 Billy Corgan? So was your dad promoting and managing?
16:31 Speaker 01 Yes.
16:31 Billy Corgan? Okay, so that makes sense. So that's why you're seeing these great artists that are coming over.
16:35 Speaker 01 He would put these packages together and they were just, I look now at some of the old programs that I have and I'm like, oh my God, all these artists.
16:45 Billy Corgan? See, daddy really had a sense of like, he felt what was going on and he saw it. Did he like rock and roll?
16:52 Speaker 01 Loved it.
16:52 Billy Corgan? Oh, interesting.
16:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:54 Billy Corgan? Because not a lot of guys who grew up liking what he liked.
16:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:57 Billy Corgan? In that generation, made that transition, you know. Frank Sinatra famously was criticizing the Beatles and.
17:03 Speaker 01 Yes, exactly. He, he embraced it.
17:10 Billy Corgan? I came very late to appreciate how good the Small Faces were. Did you, did you?
17:16 Speaker 01 I went to school with Stevie Marriott.
17:19 Billy Corgan? Okay, because I want to ask you about Steve, so. So, but I mean, at the time, did you, I know they, they were sort of a, in a way, like a teen sensation, but they had musical credibility.
17:28 Speaker 01 They did, they did.
17:29 Billy Corgan? And my big harp, and I'm, I'm kind of embarrassed to admit it now. I think they might be one of the most influential bands ever. But somehow in America, because when they caught on, it was kind of later. Thirty Days in the Hole, like grittier rock. But when you go back and listen to the whole thing, especially with Steve and Small Faces, and you realize like, how many people ripped him off, including Led Zeppelin, and it's unbelievable.
17:52 Speaker 01 His voice was incredible, just incredible. I was sent to a stage school. And so the school-
18:03 Billy Corgan? Like a performing arts type of thing?
18:05 Speaker 01 Yes.
18:05 Billy Corgan? Okay.
18:05 Speaker 01 So you learned all the performing arts and of course-
18:09 Billy Corgan? Is this, you trying to be a dancer at this point, or?
18:11 Speaker 01 Um, anything, because it was like my father said, unless you can entertain, you'll never earn a living. So, um, Stevie was at the school. And he was in a production of Oliver in London.
18:27 Billy Corgan? Right.
18:28 Speaker 01 And he played the Artful Dodger.
18:30 Billy Corgan? Yeah, right.
18:31 Speaker 01 And, I mean, that voice of his was just incredible. And he was tiny, tiny little-
18:39 Billy Corgan? I think he's tinier than you, right?
18:40 Speaker 01 And he was like real bousy, bousy, ballsy, like would argue with anyone.
18:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah. See, I think it's interesting, because like I said, now we can sit here and talk, and we can say, this person's a legend, and this person's in the Rock and Hall of Fame. But at the time, the business was a fraction of the size it is now.
19:02 Speaker 01 It was still a business. It was still the music business instead of the music industry.
19:09 Billy Corgan? Ah, I see. That's an interesting point. So, I saw something, and, and before I say it, I know that Brian Epstein did it, but there's something about your dad, chart fixing, and there was some controversy about him with Small Faces and chart fixing.
19:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, and pay for play on the radio.
19:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah, but they would go, and they'd go in the store and buy like a bunch of singles to try to-
19:30 Speaker 01 Oh yeah, to get it up in the charts, yeah. We would all go out on a Saturday and, you know, pocket full of cash, and go to every record shop and buy two, three-
19:39 Billy Corgan? That was kind of standard procedure back then.
19:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, sure.
19:42 Billy Corgan? When the Small Faces kind of started to take off, did that sort of change your father's fortune and that now other artists wanted to work with him?
19:51 Speaker 01 The, we-
19:52 Billy Corgan? Sorry, were they the first kind of young contemporary band that he had association with?
19:56 Speaker 01 Yes, yeah. That were English too.
19:59 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:00 Speaker 01 And, um, but we were always had money or completely broke.
20:08 Billy Corgan? So it was Burma bust, yeah.
20:11 Speaker 01 That's the way it was. So I was always used to adapting. You just adapt, you know, oh, we've got no phone in the house because it's been cut off. We didn't pay the bill, no lights, we didn't pay the bill, or water.
20:25 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
20:26 Speaker 01 Just, okay.
20:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I saw a story, I think it was in Peter Frampton's book, where he was talking about, he'd had the band The Herd.
20:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
20:36 Billy Corgan? And I think your father had managed him. I don't remember the exact story, but it was something along the lines of like, somebody came up and was asking Peter about working with your father. And Peter said something in kind about your father. And a few days later, a couple guys showed up.
20:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:53 Billy Corgan? Peter stepped outside a club and said, "We're going to talk to Don." Like, you get in the car, took him to the car, he walks in and there's your dad behind the desk and says, "Take my name out of your mouth." I'm not trying to say it as some sort of sign of his character. It's more of like, I know that that business back then was very rough and tumble.
21:13 Speaker 01 There were no laws. There were no laws. It was, you know, they were pioneers. So lawyers, this, the other, forget it.
21:27 Billy Corgan? Right.
21:27 Speaker 01 Sign here, sign now.
21:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah, or get out.
21:30 Speaker 01 Oh, there's two more waiting to come in.
21:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah, because my daddy, when he had some opportunities in Chicago in the late 60s, he told me later that the reason he didn't sign because of this implication that you were signing in with the mob people. I'm not saying that's your father's experience, but there was that feeling that there were other forces at play and you had to be careful where you stepped. And I think at least it's important pointing it out. Because like you said, now it would be about lawyers and magistrates and who says what with the laws in California. Back then it was mild west.
22:02 Speaker 01 Nothing, nothing at all.
22:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:04 Speaker 01 And, you know, everybody knew it was quick money, very quick, like gambling.
22:10 Speaker 01 And so, everybody wanted a piece. And the mob was very much involved in America.
22:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:18 Speaker 01 In those days.
22:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:19 Speaker 01 They just were. And my dad had some connections and some with these guys called the Crays.
22:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:29 Speaker 01 That ended up in England going. Cause they had clubs and they would want stars to come and perform in their clubs. And so, my father knew them and.
22:39 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it's like when you see those old interviews where they're kind of, they're poking around with Frank Sinatra about whether he has any mob ties. Well, the real answer is you couldn't play a club in those days without some organized crime connection because that's how they laundered their money and that's.
22:54 Speaker 01 And Vegas.
22:55 Billy Corgan? Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. There's a, I'm saying is there's another side to that story.
23:00 Speaker 01 Yes, yeah.
23:00 Billy Corgan? There's no, there was no way to play in that sandbox without having to rub elbows with somebody up to something.
23:06 Speaker 01 Right. And it would get very much, you know, when artists would come, especially to New York on the East Coast, wherever they were, they were involved.
23:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
23:18 Speaker 01 They owned the buildings, the theaters.
23:21 Billy Corgan? And the guy putting the chair on the stage. And if you didn't pay something, something.
23:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
23:27 Billy Corgan? So, this is my understanding of the acts that your dad did manage. But maybe this is the wrong list, but Jerry Lee Lewis, some of the names you had, Little Richard, Gene Vincent, Air Supply, The Move, Black Sabbath, ELO. Anybody else that I'm missing on that list? It's a pretty good, pretty decent list of, of success.
23:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:45 Billy Corgan? So.
23:47 Speaker 01 The Nashville Teens, The Animals.
23:48 Billy Corgan? Oh, that's right.
23:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:49 Billy Corgan? I didn't know about The Animals.
23:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, oh. Yeah, now there's a guy with a great voice.
23:55 Billy Corgan? Well, there's the famous story of the day they recorded House of the Rising Sun. It was on like a houseboat. They went in on this houseboat and recorded it in like a couple hours and then drove up the road to a gig. Didn't think anything of it. It's magical times in those ways.
24:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:10 Billy Corgan? Now we make albums forever and Pro Tools.
24:12 Speaker 01 And we need to fly here and we need this guy in to do another mix.
24:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
24:17 Speaker 01 It's the purity has kind of gone.
24:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that's why I love talking to you about it because you were actually there and you saw it happen. Not a lot of people really saw the way that business ran at that time. It makes, in many ways for me as a fan, it makes those times even more magical because you realize it really was trying to find lightning in a bottle.
24:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:38 Billy Corgan? And talent really was the great delineating force. So when you look at a small faces, you know, when you listen to that voice, that's not him doing 18 takes. That's him stepping up to a microphone in many ways live.
24:51 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. Oh, we've got four hours tonight, so can we finish?
24:56 Billy Corgan? Unbelievable. It gives me chills to think about because it's, if you love rock and roll, we love rock and roll. It's humbling, you know, and of course, your husband, one of the great singers of all time. It's like it was there from the beginning. He found it or he had it.
25:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:13 Billy Corgan? It's not like somebody said, well, you know, Oz, can you?
25:15 Speaker 01 If you, if you move this way and if you dress this way and if we get this choreographer in, you know, you'll be, kids will love it. It just came from within. It was for all of those artists.
25:28 Billy Corgan? I always laugh because there's that, there's that concert film of Sabbath playing Paris like 1970.
25:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
25:33 Billy Corgan? And Ozzy's wearing like a members only jacket. It's so like, they're playing all these doom songs and Ozzy's in his members only jacket.
25:42 Billy Corgan? So it's two questions, but take them any way you want. It's, it's what did you want to be or become? And, and did your father want you in his business? So how does that work as a teenager? Like, how are you, if you're, if, I don't know, pick your age, 12 to 13, you're looking forward.
26:01 Speaker 01 I wanted to be a dancer, but I, I knew I didn't have the dedication that it takes to do ballet. Cause it's, it's like being a gymnast.
26:10 Billy Corgan? It's like six hours a day type of thing, right?
26:13 Speaker 01 And I, I didn't have that. I wanted to have fun.
26:19 Billy Corgan? Really?
26:20 Speaker 01 And you can't do that if you're...
26:23 Billy Corgan? So what's fun for you at age thirteen, fourteen?
26:26 Speaker 01 Just, I went to all the gigs I could. All the TV shows where there was music on. There was this show in England called Top of the Pops.
26:35 Billy Corgan? Sure.
26:36 Speaker 01 And so everything that was in the top twenty, they would play. And certain artists would come in and perform live.
26:42 Billy Corgan? She used to go to see the live Top of the Pops shows?
26:44 Speaker 01 Yeah. And then my greatest joy was I got to host it once. And it was my greatest joy.
26:51 Billy Corgan? How old were you when this happened?
26:53 Speaker 01 And I couldn't tell anybody there because they would think,
26:56 Billy Corgan? Oh, I see.
26:57 Speaker 01 You know, I've been watching it since I was this big.
26:59 Billy Corgan? Right.
27:00 Speaker 01 But, um...
27:01 Billy Corgan? How old were you when this happened?
27:03 Speaker 01 Oh, God, this happened, I must have done that in, uh,
27:10 Speaker 01 twenty oh one. So twenty-three years ago.
27:14 Billy Corgan? Oh, okay.
27:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:15 Billy Corgan? I was thinking it was back then. Oh, oh, oh. Oh, I see. I see why you're...
27:19 Speaker 01 Loved it. Yeah.
27:21 Billy Corgan? So, when's the first time you saw Ozzy in real life?
27:28 Speaker 01 I saw Ozzy at eighteen. And they played a club in London called The Marquis.
27:36 Billy Corgan? So that would have been, what, nineteen seventy-eight?
27:40 Speaker 01 No, seventy-six.
27:41 Billy Corgan? Seventy-six, okay.
27:43 Speaker 01 And, no, why am I saying that? No.
27:49 Speaker 01 Seventy-seventy-one.
27:50 Billy Corgan? Oh, that early, okay.
27:51 Speaker 01 That early.
27:52 Billy Corgan? Okay, right. That's what I was trying to understand.
27:53 Speaker 01 Yeah. And there was all the talk in the office. Because I worked for my father then. I left school at fifteen. You could leave school at fifteen in England then.
28:04 Billy Corgan? What do you do in the office at this point?
28:05 Speaker 01 I am the receptionist. I am learning the business and I was a receptionist.
28:10 Billy Corgan? How are you as a receptionist?
28:12 Speaker 01 Terrible. And, uh, terrible because I used to answer the phone. And I would answer the phone with different accents on. Because I'd get bored. And I'd done all the accents at drama school. So I would be American, I'd be all of this. So I just used to play. But, um...
28:35 Speaker 01 There was all this talk in the office that there was this band called Black Sabbath that had a stupid manager from Birmingham. And their album had just come out and there was all of this talk about this album. Nobody's heard music like this before. And it was, you know, a small business, so everybody was talking. And they were coming to play in London at the Marquee Club. And every manager in London was there, trying to steal the band.
29:07 Billy Corgan? So you were at this gig where this is this kind of moment?
29:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah, okay.
29:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:12 Billy Corgan? So what's your, I mean, obviously you had a lot of time to live with your husband since then. But like, what's your sort of first impression? Did you have an impression of him, the band? Just take, put me in the room a little bit.
29:23 Speaker 01 Well, it was packed, it was sweaty, it was a small club. And it, when it started out, I'm like, what the hell is this? Because I'd been used to American artists always.
29:38 Billy Corgan? Ah, I see.
29:39 Speaker 01 Or the faces, you know, and they were like jolly and happy and I'm like, what the hell is this? What's going on? And the walls were all dripping with sweat and, you know, I, I, I was like, what is this? I couldn't quite make it out.
29:58 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
29:59 Speaker 01 But you knew it was special, the vibe in the room and watching everybody's face.
30:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah, there are those moments in our life musically where you see or hear something and you know something's happening, but you haven't figured it out yet. So it's that odd feeling of like,
30:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:12 Billy Corgan? I'm behind something, but why am I behind?
30:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:16 Billy Corgan? I shouldn't like this, but I do, but I don't, but, yeah.
30:19 Speaker 01 It was very odd. And so the next day, they were due to come to see my father. So my father sent his chauffeur, who was...
30:35 Speaker 01 A very interesting person. And he was also his bodyguard.
30:40 Billy Corgan? Okay.
30:41 Speaker 01 And he was involved with the craze.
30:44 Billy Corgan? Okay.
30:45 Speaker 01 And he had a checkered past, you could say, this gentleman.
30:51 Billy Corgan? It sounds better with your English accent.
30:54 Speaker 01 So he went to their hotel, picked them up, and brought them to my father's office, the first time they'd ever been in a Rolls Royce. And my father was, he knew how to put it on, you know, impressed.
31:07 Billy Corgan? I got you.
31:08 Speaker 01 So they came to our offices, which were in Mayfair in London. And I, they come in, they sit in reception.
31:18 Billy Corgan? And there you are.
31:20 Speaker 01 There am I. And they're all sat on the floor. And they wouldn't sit in seats, they had to sit on the floor. And I'm like, what the is going on here? And I'm just taking my calls, you know, trying not to have eye contact with anyone. And then I showed them into my father's office. And then this gentleman, his name was Wilf, who was my father's bodyguard and chauffeur, was to drive them back to the station where they were going home to Birmingham. And he didn't. He took them to a pub.
31:57 Billy Corgan? Okay.
31:58 Speaker 01 And one of the guys who worked for my father, in fact, he used to be Gene Vincent's tour manager for my father when Ritchie Blackmore was in the Back Up Band.
32:11 Speaker 01 Um, the Blue Caps, they were called.
32:13 Billy Corgan? Right.
32:14 Speaker 01 Um, he joined the meeting. He, he, he used to tour manager for my father, but he was working every day in the office, this guy. And so he met Wilf.
32:29 Speaker 01 They sat down with Sabbath. Sabbath told them they were terrified of my father. And Wilf and this guy Patrick said, yes, and he'll steal all your money. You don't want to go with him. He will beat you up. He'll do whatever, whatever, whatever. And they were terrified of him anyway because they'd heard stories. And that Friday, Patrick and Wilf left. And they took Black Sabbath. Well, they didn't take them because we never had them, but.
33:03 Billy Corgan? Oh, I get you. I get you.
33:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:06 Billy Corgan? Ah, so to the romantic side of the equation, you're looking at your future husband. You don't know he's your future husband. Do you have any, any stars in your eyes? Did you feel any?
33:17 Speaker 01 I, at that point, I was honestly, I was so like, oh, God, I can't look at them. I'm embarrassed. I'm like insecure.
33:25 Billy Corgan? They were kind of motley back then.
33:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, they were. And I was like, oh, I'm embarrassed to look at them. I was used to people coming in smartly dressed, smelling great.
33:35 Billy Corgan? Carnaby Street vibe.
33:36 Speaker 01 Sure.
33:36 Billy Corgan? Very sophisticated London.
33:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:38 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
33:39 Speaker 01 And not, not them.
33:41 Billy Corgan? Tony Iommi, because I got to work with him once on something. He was telling me about when they would come down from Birmingham to London, they would feel like aliens.
33:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:51 Billy Corgan? And the press would treat them poorly and they couldn't wait to go home because London to them was this alien place.
33:58 Speaker 01 Really strange for them. And when they first went to America, it was even worse. Can you imagine them in New York? They were scared to leave the hotel.
34:10 Billy Corgan? Well, so, so at that point, there's no like.
34:14 Speaker 01 Nothing, nothing.
34:15 Billy Corgan? Do you remember talking to Ozzy back then or?
34:17 Speaker 01 No.
34:18 Billy Corgan? I'm just curious.
34:18 Speaker 01 No.
34:19 Billy Corgan? It's the romantic side of me.
34:20 Speaker 01 It's, we had nothing but Wilf and Patrick who left, who took Sabbath. And of course, you know, huge, huge record sales, huge tours. I. Spoke to Patrick. I had a friendship with him. He'd worked for my dad forever. He was always very nice to me. Not with Wolf, I didn't have a friendship. He was frightened me. But with Patrick, I did. And so I used to go to a few gigs. My dad didn't know.
34:54 Billy Corgan? OK.
34:55 Speaker 01 And then I got to meet Ozzy. I'd take girlfriends and we'd go and see his show when they were in London.
35:01 Billy Corgan? So then you got to know him a little bit socially.
35:02 Speaker 01 Yes, so then, over time, I got to know them. And Tony.
35:06 Billy Corgan? OK.
35:07 Speaker 01 And then Tony would come into town, into LA. When I moved to LA, he would call, we'd go hang, and that sort of thing.
35:15 Billy Corgan? Just very, nothing special, just other warm, nice.
35:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:19 Billy Corgan? How you doing? So, take me a little bit through, how did they eventually end up with your dad?
35:27 Speaker 01 In early seventy-nine, Tony was in LA. And he said, "Everything we thought your dad would do, they did to us. They stole, they took everything." The guys would say, "Come, we have four houses." They, listen to this, they did, they would do, you know, a three-month tour of America. They would get one thousand pounds in a cheque each for the tour.
35:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
35:58 Speaker 01 But they would think that was a huge amount of money. They were happy with it.
36:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
36:03 Speaker 01 And then they'd say, "Do you think we have enough to ever buy a house?" And Patrick would say, "Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, go buy a house. We'll take care of everything for you." And they would buy houses. They weren't big estates, they were houses. You know, regular houses. And they bought them. But they weren't in their names, they were in Patrick's name. Even the cars that they drove.
36:32 Speaker 01 His, Patrick's name was on the pink slip. So when, when it all went up in the air, they came.
36:40 Billy Corgan? So, I know the story's oft told, but just simply walk me through, you know, at some point you're, you fall in love and now you're managing, you know, he gets booted out of the band.
36:54 Speaker 01 That year, it was that year that Tony called and said, would you, would you talk to your dad? Would he take us back, yada, yada? And of course, my father's revenge was, of course I will.
37:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
37:07 Speaker 01 And, um, they came back.
37:13 Speaker 01 They would, you know, they'd always complain about each other. It's a band, you know what it's like in a band.
37:17 Billy Corgan? Every band complains about everybody all the time.
37:20 Speaker 01 All the.
37:21 Billy Corgan? Hate to blow the mystery, but.
37:22 Speaker 01 That's the way it is.
37:24 Billy Corgan? Right.
37:24 Speaker 01 And they were always all about Ozzy and this and the other and Ozzy this.
37:29 Billy Corgan? Can I stop you there? Because I'm such a fan and, and you were there and the sense was they, somehow they turned on him, but I, I've never really understood why they turned on him the way they did. It was, was, you know, generally it seems to be couched in, he was getting too crazy or something. But was it, you know, the most striking thing to me is, because I've seen this footage where it's like suddenly, and I know they did it different times, but like Ozzy singing on the side in front of the speakers and Tony's in the middle.
37:56 Speaker 01 Tony had him moved to the side so Tony could be in the middle.
38:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:00 Speaker 01 And I think the long and short of it, really, um, we all know Ozzy was never a good drinker. He was always the first to be on the floor. I mean, the worst drinker in the world and drug taker. The others could maintain some semblance of, we're okay.
38:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:21 Speaker 01 But Ozzy was always, you know, on the floor. And I honestly think because Ozzy didn't play an instrument.
38:33 Speaker 01 That his value in their eyes was this big. You just sing, you just sing, all you do is sing. So I honestly think, and it's something I've tried to sort out. But my thing is, is that they were envious because Ozzy got attention. Which every lead singer does, it comes with the gig. And they weren't getting the notoriety that he was. And they thought, you don't do anything, you're drunk all the time. And why do you get all this notoriety?
39:08 Billy Corgan? Sure, sure.
39:10 Speaker 01 And I think that had an awful lot to do with it.
39:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:14 Speaker 01 And they were kids.
39:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah, that's.
39:16 Speaker 01 Kids.
39:17 Billy Corgan? Yeah, obviously those bridges have been repaired and, you know, mended long ago. But it's funny too, because even as a fan, and I was listening to Sabbath starting in like seventy-four. I was very young when I first heard Sabbath, about eight years old. And to me, it just, it still connects with me, I don't know why, I just love them. But, but the one thing that really does strike me, and because I was a fan during the contemporary times of those seventies and eighties records, I don't think any of us knew as fans that Ozzy had a charisma that went beyond just being a great singer.
39:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:52 Billy Corgan? He's beloved in a way that very few people in music are. And you love the man, but you've also had a front row seat to like, the way he connects with people is very unique.
40:06 Billy Corgan? Did you have a sense of it then?
40:07 Speaker 01 Yes, when I started to hang out with the band more and more. Because really, Tony and I were, had a friendship. Like he would come in, you know, like I say, he would give me a call, I'd take him to some clubs, whatever, whatever.
40:23 Billy Corgan? Tony is a very sensible person, he's kind of gentlemanly and.
40:27 Speaker 01 Very gentlemanly and, I mean, he's just a nice person to hang with.
40:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
40:35 Speaker 01 He's very social, Tony is very social and, you know, we had a friendship.
40:43 Speaker 01 And I just, Ozzy has this thing, he's just.
40:51 Speaker 01 You can't dislike him. He had the best smile in the world. The best smile. He would smile at you and, you know, you'd just like, you'd wanna hug him.
41:01 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:01 Speaker 01 And he always remained, he still is, a fan of music and other musicians. He's a huge fan. And I think that people got the sense of him that he's very genuine when he says, "I love you."
41:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
41:19 Speaker 01 He does.
41:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah, you know, like, and you saw it. He would always say in concerts, "We love you."
41:26 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
41:27 Billy Corgan? And I can't think of anybody who ever said it the way he did. People will say, "We love you, thank you," but he would say it through the whole night.
41:33 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
41:33 Billy Corgan? And now, all these years later, I realize he really meant it.
41:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, he does. And he, over and over and over, and there were times when people would say things, "Oh, Aussie's crowd is this, that, the other." "Have you seen the Aussie crowd?" "Jesus, you know, nothing like Sting's crowd or the Stones' crowd."
41:53 Billy Corgan? What a thing to say.
41:54 Speaker 01 But, but...
41:55 Billy Corgan? I understand.
41:56 Speaker 01 And Ozzy would go insane. He would go insane when he would hear those things.
42:02 Billy Corgan? Because to him, it's insulting the people he loves.
42:04 Speaker 01 It's insulting. It's like, "How dare you? These are my people. How dare you say these things?"
42:12 Billy Corgan? Yeah, it's beautiful.
42:13 Speaker 01 You know, and it's like ticket pricing and, you know, "Oh, you know, if you wanna go see the Stones, it's this much money." And he's always very much like that working mentality. You don't do that. Why make your fans pay more to see you?
42:29 Billy Corgan? God bless him. So, take me through, you've known him for years, and then one day you're in love and managing.
42:39 Speaker 01 Well, it was when... The band had decided definitely Ozzy had to go.
42:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:45 Speaker 01 And Tony said to me, who do you think I could get for a singer? And I said, I know this guy, Ronnie Deo.
42:53 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:53 Speaker 01 So I introduced them. They got on really well.
42:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:57 Speaker 01 Because Ronnie was a very social guy, too.
43:00 Billy Corgan? Sure.
43:00 Speaker 01 Very easy to talk to.
43:03 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
43:03 Speaker 01 And they all hit it off, which was great. And they got rid of Ozzy, which was not great for Ozzy. Because he didn't have any confidence in himself.
43:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
43:17 Speaker 01 So he thought he was like over, over. Embarrassed to go back home to see his wife and kids. Embarrassed to tell them.
43:28 Billy Corgan? So, but.
43:29 Speaker 01 And then
43:32 Speaker 01 my father and I, and we just said, we could keep both. Why not?
43:36 Billy Corgan? Ah, I see.
43:37 Speaker 01 That's what we do.
43:38 Billy Corgan? So did you kind of take over sort of day to day management or?
43:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:41 Billy Corgan? Okay. So where does this lead to? Your father accusing you of stealing him and all that?
43:48 Speaker 01 Because I realized that Ozzy's record. I realized with Jeff Lynne. Jeff Lynne, I used to work with all the time and Roy Wood.
44:01 Billy Corgan? But for context, Ozzy was signed to Jet.
44:04 Speaker 01 Ozzy was signed to Jet Records.
44:07 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
44:07 Speaker 01 And then Jet Records was distributed by, in those days, CBS. It's now Sony.
44:14 Billy Corgan? Sure.
44:15 Speaker 01 So we wanted out because I knew for Ozzy that.
44:20 Billy Corgan? You wanted out or your father wanted out or?
44:22 Speaker 01 I wanted Ozzy out because I knew he would never get any money. Never. My dad used to wait after the tour, first tour. Where's the money? Give us the money. Because then you used to get paid in cash still in those days.
44:36 Billy Corgan? Sure.
44:37 Speaker 01 And I'd have bags of money and he'd say, where's the money? And I'm like, we've got to pay crew. We've got to pay this, that, trucks, buses.
44:48 Speaker 01 And I just knew that we would just be workhorses.
44:52 Billy Corgan? So Ozzy was still under a contract to Jet even though he'd been kicked out of Sabbath?
44:55 Speaker 01 Individually.
44:56 Billy Corgan? Did he have a key man type of thing?
44:58 Speaker 01 It was all, whenever my dad signed anybody, it wasn't just the band. It was the band and individuals.
45:07 Billy Corgan? So nobody could?
45:07 Speaker 01 No.
45:08 Billy Corgan? Okay, so do you go to your father and say, he needs to get off of this? And is that where the split starts to happen?
45:15 Speaker 01 My father at that time was going through a lot personally. And he had decided to leave my mother and he'd got some young woman that he was living with here. And his head wasn't in it. All he wanted was the money.
45:32 Billy Corgan? I see.
45:33 Speaker 01 I mean, he always wanted the money. My father's attitude was, I'll make you a star and I'll take the money.
45:41 Billy Corgan? That's the, okay. So what happened first? You taking a bigger role in Ozzy's musical life or falling in love? Like, how does that? What's the sequence there?
45:53 Speaker 01 Taking care of Ozzy. He was married, two little babies. And it was one of those cases of having such belief in him that this is gonna work.
46:09 Billy Corgan? Did you just feel it?
46:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, and then when, of course, when we met Randy, it was, you know, we were like the Three Musketeers.
46:17 Billy Corgan? Right.
46:17 Speaker 01 And I managed Randy. And he was under contract to me, not my father.
46:25 Billy Corgan? I didn't know that part of the story.
46:26 Speaker 01 No.
46:28 Billy Corgan? Very good.
46:29 Speaker 01 And I learned from my father.
46:35 Billy Corgan? Well, you are his daughter.
46:37 Speaker 01 And. It was just a very magical time when you believe in something so much. And your whole being is in it. And I had a lot to prove, Ozzy had a lot to prove, Randy had a lot to prove.
46:53 Billy Corgan? Sure.
46:53 Speaker 01 So it was like, that's all we did was work, work, work.
46:57 Billy Corgan? Would you say at that point, your faith was greater in Ozzy than Ozzy's faith in himself?
47:01 Speaker 01 Yes, because he didn't believe in himself. He kept saying, I know I can't do it without Sabbath. You know, nobody will want me, nobody will remember me, they won't care about me. And I'm like, nah, you can do it.
47:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I have this beautiful memory of playing basketball in my front yard. You know, we had a little hoop. And they said, coming up. The new song from Ozzy, Osbourne, the former lead singer of Black Sabbath. You know, but then they went to commercial.
47:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:31 Billy Corgan? So I'm just out there shooting baskets. And so it would have been Crazy Train, I think, would have been the first song. And I, and I, it was that, one of those moments in your life where you stop and you go. What is, what is this? Because I'd heard all the Sabbath records. And I certainly recognized his voice, but it was like, it felt like this lightning bolt, like something is happening.
47:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:51 Billy Corgan? And I couldn't wait to hear it again. I felt like I was at the middle of something so new. I could really feel it. And I was, you know, 14 years old, playing basketball. But I remember stopping and just looking at the boombox because whatever you all had created in that moment, it was shocking. It had that, like, great music has a way of feeling like you're fast forwarding in the timeline all of a sudden.
48:15 Billy Corgan? So back to your father's on the business side. So did you guys have an amicable, okay, I'm going to manage him? Or he, he didn't refuse or like, just give me, walk me through the business side of it all.
48:24 Speaker 01 He wasn't actively working, my father. He was there, sure. But he wasn't actually physically doing anything. I was doing it.
48:33 Billy Corgan? But Oz is under contract to your.
48:35 Speaker 01 To my father.
48:35 Billy Corgan? To your daddy. So how does that work?
48:37 Speaker 01 Well, I was doing all the work. We were.
48:43 Speaker 01 He paid him his advance for his first album, which was fifty thousand dollars for Blizzard. But we back-to-back made two albums.
48:55 Billy Corgan? Right, while you were waiting for the first one.
48:57 Speaker 01 Yes.
48:57 Billy Corgan? I wanted to ask you, was that waiting because you guys knew you had a hot record and you're trying to set it up?
49:03 Speaker 01 I just said, we're gonna spend so long touring the world that we need to have a record come right away. So we did them back-to-back. And my father hadn't paid Ozzy or Randy for the second album.
49:20 Billy Corgan? OK.
49:20 Speaker 01 And I was like, you can't do this. They won't, and I would lie and I'd say, they're refusing to go on stage until you pay them their record advance. So I was like, playing mind games with him. And because I wasn't on his side, that was really this thing that broke.
49:40 Billy Corgan? He saw you siding more with?
49:41 Speaker 01 Yes.
49:42 Billy Corgan? OK.
49:42 Speaker 01 And then it would be him against us. And we were this force and it was just like breaking worldwide.
49:50 Billy Corgan? Sure.
49:51 Speaker 01 And he wasn't a part of it and they kept saying, Randy's terrible, he's got to go.
49:58 Speaker 01 Because?
49:58 Billy Corgan? That's crazy.
49:59 Speaker 01 They didn't have control of Randy.
50:01 Billy Corgan? I see.
50:02 Speaker 01 So they wanted Randy out.
50:03 Billy Corgan? Ah, OK.
50:05 Speaker 01 And we're like, no, he ain't going nowhere, he's staying. And my father, we would hardly speak and then one year went to a year and a half and it was hostile and...
50:16 Billy Corgan? But Ozzy's still under contract, your daddy?
50:18 Speaker 01 Still under contract. And then we said, we're getting married and we want out. Totally, totally out. What do we have to do to get away from you?
50:30 Billy Corgan? So now it's just a business thing, right?
50:31 Speaker 01 Yes.
50:32 Billy Corgan? OK.
50:32 Speaker 01 So he said he wanted a million and a half and an album. And in those days, you know, it was a load of money.
50:40 Billy Corgan? That's a lot of money.
50:41 Speaker 01 So he wanted?
50:41 Billy Corgan? That's still a lot of money.
50:42 Speaker 01 He wanted a million and a half and another album.
50:48 Speaker 01 So we said, okay. So I had to go to the record company and say,
50:55 Speaker 01 Ozzy's gonna be leaving Jet. You wanna sign him directly, which they did.
51:00 Billy Corgan? So you got the future advance to?
51:02 Speaker 01 You've got it.
51:02 Billy Corgan? Okay.
51:03 Speaker 01 And so they gave me the money to pay my father. And then we gave him, we're thinking, God, what can we give him quick to get rid of it?
51:12 Billy Corgan? Like a live record?
51:13 Speaker 01 A live Sabbath record. So it was like, sorry to the fans, but we had to do this.
51:20 Billy Corgan? I like that record still. It's kinda fun.
51:23 Speaker 01 So that's got rid of him, but I did get rid of my father. My father was...
51:32 Speaker 01 Wherever we went, there was somebody, you know, he'd send his little Italian guys that would turn up at gigs and say,
51:43 Speaker 01 "The publishing, your father still wants Ozzy's publishing. He's not giving up on that." And the guy would sit there and he'd have his foot on the coffee table and he'd have a gun in his boot. And he'd pull his trousers up to try and scare me. And I'd be like, "I don't give a [bleep] what you've got in your boot. I don't give a [bleep]."
52:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Wow.
52:03 Speaker 01 He's not signing.
52:05 Billy Corgan? Wow.
52:06 Speaker 01 Yeah. And...
52:08 Billy Corgan? So...
52:09 Speaker 01 It was hell. It was hell with my father.
52:12 Billy Corgan? The little girl in you's gotta... breaks your heart, no?
52:16 Speaker 01 Oh, my God. It was like my father had died. I was pining my father. Pining for my father.
52:23 Billy Corgan? Cause up to then, you guys had had a good...
52:25 Speaker 01 Yeah. I, listen, with ELO, I stood behind him with everything. And I was, you know, Jeff Lynne was a friend of mine.
52:34 Billy Corgan? Right.
52:34 Speaker 01 He lived at my house, him and his first wife lived at my house with me in L.A. We were, it was like a family.
52:43 Billy Corgan? Sure.
52:44 Speaker 01 And then when Jeff...
52:48 Speaker 01 Said to me, "Your father owes me four million." And I'm like, "Four million? No, he doesn't."
52:57 Speaker 01 And that was Jeff was the thing that actually turned the light on in my head, that what people were saying was true.
53:06 Billy Corgan? So walk me through a little bit of what it's like to manage the man that you love.
53:12 Speaker 01 It's very difficult. It's very difficult, Billy. He... And even he says, somebody asked him that question. "What was it like being married to your manager?" And he, his answer is, "I never knew who was talking to me, my wife or my manager."
53:33 Billy Corgan? A bit of both, maybe.
53:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:35 Billy Corgan? Well, in many ways, what you would think was best for him as a wife and for your family is probably the best thing for him, too.
53:44 Billy Corgan? In reflecting on your managing Ozzy, I think not only have you done an incredible job, and I can give you some specifics of why I think why that is, but I also think that you were very ahead of your time in figuring out that what Ozzy brought to the table and Ozzy's ability to connect with people, you broke him past the boundaries of music, which nowadays is kind of standard operating procedure. But you figured that out way earlier than most people. I don't think anybody in the music business circa 1986 figured that Ozzy had tons of money in him in 50 different directions. Did you have a prescient sense that that's where the business was going to go?
54:28 Billy Corgan? Or that's just how you wanted, how you saw good business? Does it make sense? Did you have a vision of it, or that's just what you felt?
54:35 Speaker 01 I just felt that Ozzy... Do you want to know the biggest mistake I ever made with Ozzy?
54:41 Billy Corgan? You're going to admit to a mistake?
54:43 Speaker 01 Yep. I have several, Billy. We could be here all night.
54:47 Billy Corgan? I gotta get ready for this one.
54:50 Speaker 01 He got offered to go and read for Pirates of the Caribbean. And I've never said this to anyone.
55:01 Billy Corgan? And you said no?
55:02 Speaker 01 I said no.
55:06 Speaker 01 That wouldn't he have been perfect?
55:07 Billy Corgan? He would have been perfect.
55:08 Speaker 01 I know.
55:09 Billy Corgan? Maybe it's not too late, but God bless, but that's funny. God, it's interesting to think of him in that thing.
55:17 Speaker 01 Because when Johnny wanted Keith to be a pirate, do you remember?
55:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah, of course, yeah. I love that.
55:27 Billy Corgan? The glib version of the question is, how do you balance somebody who has addiction issues with making those important professional choices? But I know in your world, it's so much more personal than that. You know what I'm saying? So, and you're a person who's, to the best of my knowledge, I mean, you're basically always been sober.
55:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:48 Billy Corgan? I don't think I've ever seen you drunk or high or, you know, I mean, this is the person that I do.
55:53 Speaker 01 Drugs were never my thing.
55:56 Billy Corgan? So stepping outside the rock and roll conversation that we're having, anybody who's struggled with a partner who's struggling, that's a tough thing. And then when you amplify it into the public sphere, that makes it even more complicated. So what was your, did you have a plan? Did you think, I just have to manage this? Like, what was your, as you're going along, how are you figuring this out?
56:21 Speaker 01 After I had my kids, because we had them very early and there was only a year in between each one. They called the Irish twins, but your whole life changes. You know that. Your whole life changes.
56:36 Billy Corgan? It's all about your kids.
56:37 Speaker 01 Everything. And Ozzy left two children with his first wife. And I saw what the children would, you know, the disruption, what it does to kids. And I thought, I don't, I can't have this happen again. And another three kids. How can you do that?
57:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:01 Speaker 01 And so every time...
57:04 Speaker 01 It would get bad and I'd go, oh Jesus, I should just, you know, go.
57:10 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:10 Speaker 01 But you think, no, I've made a commitment. He, I love him. And I cannot have my kids come from a broken home.
57:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:18 Speaker 01 Cannot, I just can't do it. I've seen the damage. I know the damage.
57:23 Billy Corgan? Sure.
57:23 Speaker 01 I've lived it. I don't want it for my kids. And I just adored him so much that whatever he would throw at me, I'd
57:36 Speaker 01 I'd throw back at him. You know, we had a very, very volatile relationship.
57:44 Speaker 01 Because Ozzy came from that generation.
57:47 Billy Corgan? Sure.
57:47 Speaker 01 You know, you can hit a woman, it's fine, you know. And I'd seen so much violence growing up with my dad.
57:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
57:55 Speaker 01 Not that he was violent to me, but with other people.
57:57 Billy Corgan? But you saw it, yeah.
57:58 Speaker 01 Yeah. And it was just like, well, that's what people do, don't they?
58:01 Billy Corgan? It's the same in my world.
58:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:03 Billy Corgan? You, you tell somebody, oh, I'm getting my ass kicked. And they say, well, you think it's any different next door? It's just the world we grew up in.
58:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:10 Billy Corgan? So now, of course, people have different conceptions of it. So for you, was it a, because I, I meant to ask you this question. It's like, because you've always had a hard-charging, aggressive managerial style and, you know, you, you certainly believed in what you believed in. You know, you were never shy about saying what you felt and you certainly defended your husband in a million different ways. In, in almost every case, you were right. He turned out to be the legend that you believed him to be. It's easy to say that now, but you know, whether it was stupidity about biting the head off a bat, all that stuff that we would
58:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:46 Billy Corgan? see in Cream magazine. You know, now people think it's funny, but at the time, the music business was way more conservative and
58:53 Speaker 01 Oh, Conservative Billy, they would take his albums out of Every Tower Records. They would, you know, ban him on certain radio stations. And it was like, he's not a killer yet. I mean, like
59:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
59:09 Speaker 01 It was just, I mean, serious. I, I can remember CBS calling me and saying, if Ozzy ever comes to our premises, or after he bit the dove off in the meet and greet that we had, um, he's
59:28 Speaker 01 We will stop releasing his records and we will not let him be sold to another label. We will just destroy him.
59:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah, and back then they had that power. That was a real, that's a real threat.
59:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:42 Billy Corgan? It's not like now where he can run to social media and
59:45 Speaker 01 Exactly.
59:46 Billy Corgan? Get the fans to rally behind. Back then, if they wanted to digitally
59:49 Speaker 01 Sit on you.
59:50 Billy Corgan? Analog assassination, if they wanted to, they could. And they could get all those stations to stop playing your records.
59:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:57 Billy Corgan? Remember that, I don't know if you know that story where there was all the payola going on in the late 70s and Pink Floyd got sick of it. So they basically said, "We won't be part of the payola process." And CBS tried to work the record without the payola. And every radio station in America basically said, "Okay, we won't play Pink Floyd anymore."
1:00:17 Speaker 01 That's right.
1:00:18 Billy Corgan? And that's when Pink Floyd learned that the power that they thought they had, they didn't have.
1:00:21 Speaker 01 They didn't have. And it was, it was all like, you know, "Oh, you need a new car." "Oh, you want to go to the big game or the World Series?" Whatever it was. All of those radio people would be there, you know? That's how, the perks of the job.
1:00:35 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:00:36 Speaker 01 They weren't gonna stop that.
1:00:37 Billy Corgan? So the question that I was after was,
1:00:41 Billy Corgan? and this is why I kind of connected it to the world that you and Ozzy grew up in, this kind of post-war world. It's like, because sometimes people ask me, like, "What is success? Is success winning or is success survival?"
1:00:55 Speaker 01 Survival.
1:00:57 Billy Corgan? That's what I thought you'd say, but I wanted to hear it from you.
1:00:59 Speaker 01 It's absolutely survival.
1:01:01 Billy Corgan? Just keep.
1:01:04 Speaker 01 And, and the whole thing I always used to say to Ozzy was, "We just want to stay here. You never want to go here because there's only one way, and that's down. We just want to stay here, consistent, consistent."
1:01:18 Billy Corgan? I think, as an outside observer, and obviously we know each other a bit, but I think Oz Fest is probably your greatest coup. Did you have a logic behind that at the time?
1:01:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:29 Billy Corgan? So tell me your logic. I want to see if it matches what I think.
1:01:32 Speaker 01 Okay, well, everybody was playing Lollapalooza, everybody. And, you know, they had all those alternative stages, they had the Singing Monks, they had Tom Jones, yada, yada. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, "Well, what about Ozzy?" And the agent for Lollapalooza said, "Ozzy's not relevant."
1:01:57 Speaker 01 And that me off. Because I thought, how disrespectful.
1:02:02 Billy Corgan? How about, how about half the bands playing, "Oh, a debt to Ozzy."
1:02:06 Speaker 01 It's like, how disrespectful to say that about any artist.
1:02:10 Billy Corgan? But especially someone that was very influential to the alternative.
1:02:15 Speaker 01 It was like.
1:02:15 Billy Corgan? Music world. I mean, I mean, everybody but Peter Hook from New Order, Kurt Cobain, me, we were all in debt to Sabbath on some level. Sabbath is one of the weirdest bands in the world in that they really get love from the alternative community in a way that almost no metal band ever has.
1:02:37 Speaker 01 No, I never will. It's, it's like.
1:02:40 Billy Corgan? Probably.
1:02:41 Speaker 01 It's, it's, I can remember Ozzy was at a studio and Kurt was in the studio and he in another room, the studios, and he came in and he'd written "Ozzy" on his knuckles.
1:02:55 Billy Corgan? Okay, that's all you need to know, right?
1:02:57 Speaker 01 And it was like, Ozzy was like, "Oh my God, that guy in that sweater, you know, the one."
1:03:04 Billy Corgan? That little kid?
1:03:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:08 Billy Corgan? I want to talk about your life in, in, in television because ultimately this interview is about you and you've had a very interesting life. But I don't know how to frame the question, so maybe you can frame it better than I can, but there's been a lot of fighting, there's been a lot of skirmishes. Does that come from a sense of, again, the need to survive? I need to defend what I'm after? Does it come from a sense of justice or, you know? Like, the one thing I do know is you don't like bullshit.
1:03:40 Speaker 01 No, I don't, I don't like to pretend. And the thing is,
1:03:46 Speaker 01 for me going into TV.
1:03:50 Speaker 01 I looked at it as a manager. I'm not an artist, I'm a manager.
1:03:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:55 Speaker 01 I don't have an artistic bone in my body, but I just look at it as if.
1:04:01 Billy Corgan? Sure, but did you ever have aspirations of, it sounds glib to put it, like making it about you because?
1:04:07 Speaker 01 No, never, and it came as a complete surprise when I was asked to do things when we finished The Osbournes.
1:04:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:04:16 Speaker 01 And I'm like, okay, what's the deal? If the deal is good, I'll take it.
1:04:19 Billy Corgan? Did someone approach you to do the show or was it an idea that you had?
1:04:23 Speaker 01 The Osbournes? No, it was, um, the kids and Ozzy, I wasn't in it, did, um, Cribs.
1:04:30 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:04:31 Speaker 01 And it was the most requested Cribs. So they came to us and said, well, we want to do something, what can we do?
1:04:38 Billy Corgan? Ah, so then you bring in people and people start riffing. Did you, were you hesitant to let people inside your world as much as you ended up? I mean, it became very personal.
1:04:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, um, no, I was like, no. It was.
1:04:53 Billy Corgan? Did you see how it would help the business?
1:04:56 Speaker 01 It, no, I, it, because initially it was only meant to be three weeks and it ended up three years.
1:05:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:05:03 Speaker 01 And that's how we got to own The Osbournes because the guys came, the film crew came, and a year later, they were still filming and it hadn't been released.
1:05:14 Billy Corgan? Oh, wow.
1:05:15 Speaker 01 And then they said, we've got to do a deal here. I'm like, okay.
1:05:19 Billy Corgan? Wow. Yeah, I mean, now, looking back, I mean, it's such a groundbreaking series. You know what I mean? Do you see it that way?
1:05:28 Speaker 01 Um, funnily enough, we'd looked back on it as a family together. We were looking at it all as a family, the four of us. And it actually disturbed me.
1:05:42 Billy Corgan? Really?
1:05:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, it did.
1:05:43 Billy Corgan? Tell me, tell me what?
1:05:44 Speaker 01 Um, for my kids.
1:05:47 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
1:05:48 Speaker 01 You know, Amy didn't want to do it.
1:05:50 Billy Corgan? I remember talking to her at that time.
1:05:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:53 Billy Corgan? I, I asked her point blank, why do you do it? She goes, I don't want anything to do with this mess.
1:05:57 Speaker 01 And I, I looked at my kids and what they were subjected to because I allowed them to.
1:06:04 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:06:04 Speaker 01 And their behavior and I was shocked.
1:06:07 Billy Corgan? Hmm.
1:06:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:10 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:06:11 Speaker 01 But you're in it so deep. And when it came out and it was like, everybody thought it was amazing. I'm like, do they? Okay.
1:06:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:06:24 Speaker 01 I can remember my best friend, who is an agent, said to me, "You can't let this go out. This is disgraceful. You cannot, you've got to stop it." And I'm like, oops, too late.
1:06:35 Billy Corgan? Too late. It did, am I right or wrong? And this might be an improper assumption. It did seem to revive Ozzy's musical life in a way. Was it because he, am I wrong about that?
1:06:47 Speaker 01 No, you're right. Because there were people that had kind of heard of Ozzy's name, but had never seen him.
1:06:56 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:06:57 Speaker 01 And so they saw him and they either fell in love with him or hated him, but more fell in love with him. And then they would go out and buy his old records. So it helped everything because fans that we never thought he would ever reach.
1:07:12 Billy Corgan? But it's interesting. It's interesting that it was more of an organic process inside your world. Because looking from the outside, it's like, it seems like a genius coup, you know? They call it like first mover advantage, that you'd figured something out.
1:07:23 Speaker 01 No.
1:07:24 Billy Corgan? But Oz Fest, you know, that, I think.
1:07:29 Speaker 01 That, it's because they were so disrespectful about Ozzy. I was like, I'm gonna show you, you bastards. How dare you say that about an artist? And I went insane. Came up with the idea, well, we'll do our own festival. We'll do a heavy metal festival. It's never been done, let's do it.
1:07:49 Billy Corgan? It definitely worked.
1:07:50 Speaker 01 And it worked. And it was like 20-odd years of fantastic summers, fantastic bands.
1:07:59 Billy Corgan? Look at the relationships that were made because of that festival.
1:08:02 Speaker 01 Exactly. Amazing. And what it did was, it then opened the doors for other promoters in other countries to do the same thing. So for the genre of music, it was passing the torch. And I look at the bands that are now doing their own festivals and I'm like, it's great.
1:08:22 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:22 Speaker 01 It's fantastic.
1:08:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:27 Billy Corgan? At what point do you make peace with your father again?
1:08:30 Speaker 01 Okay, there were years that it was just horrific for me. I mean, we'd be asked to leave restaurants, certain restaurants that my father... Oh, yeah. I mean, like, everybody in the beginning thought that Ozzy and I would fail. Everybody. The whole industry thought that we would fail.
1:08:52 Billy Corgan? Well, they don't know you very well.
1:08:55 Speaker 01 And we had a really, really hard time. I remember one time I came back from a meeting and the nanny was in the hotel room. This was before we had a house here. And my father had been on the phone and spoken to the nanny and said, "Tell my daughter to get out of town and get those kids and leave this town."
1:09:18 Billy Corgan? Wow.
1:09:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:20 Billy Corgan? Okay, so how do you make peace with that?
1:09:22 Speaker 01 My father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. And he'd lost all his money. He ended up, and he had air supply. That was the only thing he was managing, and then that dwindled. And we've always, always, our entire family has always been huge spenders. My father would be, "You've got it. You spend it. I'll make more." And he kind of passed that on to me, unfortunately. But he had nothing. And he had Alzheimer's. And my mother had died. And there he was.
1:10:02 Billy Corgan? Did you pick up the phone, or he picked up the phone?
1:10:04 Speaker 01 No, Ozzy. I wouldn't pick up the phone.
1:10:08 Billy Corgan? So Ozzy picked up the phone?
1:10:09 Speaker 01 Ozzy said, "You have to go to your father."
1:10:13 Billy Corgan? So how do you feel when he tells you that?
1:10:15 Speaker 01 I'd like...
1:10:18 Speaker 01 I just paid a tax bill of my father's because not only did I work for my father, but all his companies, everything, everything was in my name, everything.
1:10:30 Billy Corgan? Did you know that at the time?
1:10:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I trusted him. I didn't know. I, you know, we're flying to Singapore. We're getting, you know, fifty mil from this bank in Singapore. Sign for it, Sharon, sign for it, you know. Oh, OK, I'll sign for it.
1:10:46 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:10:46 Speaker 01 Bull, bull, you know.
1:10:48 Billy Corgan? Wow.
1:10:49 Speaker 01 And, um.
1:10:51 Billy Corgan? Did you go see him or call him?
1:10:53 Speaker 01 I called him and it was early Alzheimer's, so, you know. And then he had a bad heart. And then I said, OK, I'm coming to England. I'm going to get you fixed up and I'm going to bring you back to America. And that's what I did. I brought him back. I put him in an apartment with nurses. And then after a while, he needed to go into a home because it was full on Alzheimer's. And it sucked big time.
1:11:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:11:23 Speaker 01 It's wicked, wicked thing to ever have.
1:11:27 Billy Corgan? I, I went through it with somebody in my life and watched it up close. And it was very hard, it's very hard.
1:11:33 Speaker 01 It's, it's heartbreaking. And I used to have a sound system in his room for him so we could listen to all his favorite music.
1:11:42 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:11:42 Speaker 01 And he would sing along, but you ask him how he's doing, nothing. And that's the healing of music.
1:11:52 Billy Corgan? Wow.
1:11:53 Speaker 01 He would sing along, not mess up one lyric.
1:11:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah, yeah.
1:12:01 Billy Corgan? Was it hard for you to make peace? Or did you say, I'm just going to do what I need to do and then kind of sort it out later? Does that make sense?
1:12:08 Speaker 01 Yeah. And then when my father died, I went and sat with him for a while.
1:12:16 Speaker 01 Said everything I wanted to say.
1:12:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:12:20 Billy Corgan? I hear you. My father passed away a couple of years ago and I'm still in that space. I haven't quite worked it out yet, but I get it.
1:12:27 Speaker 01 Did you have a good relationship with your dad?
1:12:29 Billy Corgan? It was back and forth. It was back and forth. He had such terrible drug issues that, you know, like a lot of people with those issues. It's like one day it was the greatest and awesome and awesome best daddy in the world because he loved music and we'd talk about Jimi Hendrix and the time he did this. And then the next day he'd be like, you know, "Give me 15 grand." And I'd be like, "Why?" "Because I need it."
1:12:57 Speaker 01 Sounds like my dad, but my dad didn't do drugs or drink.
1:13:01 Billy Corgan? The drugs is the complicated thing because you're always in that space of like...
1:13:07 Billy Corgan? I did say one thing once to him where I said, because I was always very judgmental of him doing drugs. And I said to him, "I think I understand now daddy." And he said, "What do you understand?" And I said, "I think if you hadn't done drugs, you would have killed yourself." And he said, "That's true." So at least I found some peace there. It was like, even though I don't like it and I don't like what it did to our world, I also can appreciate that that was your way of staying here. And I do think that was true.
1:13:36 Speaker 01 Because I truly believe that the drink and the drug makes addicts feel the way they always want to feel. And they're trying to fill that big hole that they all have inside of them.
1:13:49 Billy Corgan? Yeah, well, I mean, think of all the people, your husband included, that you've watched throw away opportunities and moments in life because they're just not able to hold it together. It's a tough thing for everybody involved. So because of The Osbournes, they start calling you for television. Were you surprised by that?
1:14:09 Speaker 01 Totally. I'm like, "Oh, okay." And then I get a call from a company that wanted to do a chat show and then...
1:14:18 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:14:18 Speaker 01 And this thing is with me, I was on a...
1:14:25 Speaker 01 Because I'd been in the industry my entire life. I get it, I get it. And it's like, people who make TV think that they're saving lives. It's TV, it's a TV show, that's all we're making. It's not that important in the big picture of life. But people who work in TV are like, oh, you know, this, that and the other and um. I, a lot of the time, I would be off because I wasn't getting paid what my male
1:15:01 Billy Corgan? Ah.
1:15:02 Speaker 01 counterpart was getting paid.
1:15:04 Billy Corgan? I have a feeling that didn't sit well with you.
1:15:06 Speaker 01 No, and me off big time and um. A lot of things that they were doing, I didn't agree with. And but I played the game and then in the end I was getting greedy. And then it's like, what am I doing?
1:15:23 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:15:23 Speaker 01 You know? Again, we're not saving lives here. It's just TV. And it's um. And everything I've always said to artists is, if you don't want it, someone else will do, replaceable, replaceable.
1:15:39 Billy Corgan? For sure.
1:15:40 Speaker 01 And there's always talent coming up. That's one thing you can never stop, wars can't stop it. There's always that wonderful creative spirit in people that will always go on. And I'm, I was just like, I don't need this, I don't. What am I doing? What am I doing? I'm prostituting myself out for a paycheck.
1:16:07 Billy Corgan? Was the attraction that it was good for business?
1:16:09 Speaker 01 No, it was um. Okay, I've done it. You get on my nerves, I don't really like it, so I'd leave. Or then I would have an argument with, America's got talent here. I fell out with horribly NBC. The people who I fell out with have since been let go under bad circumstances and um. I'm very happy about that. And um. It was awful, the situation with NBC was horrible. They had offered my son a reality show, which was a
1:16:49 Speaker 01 SAS forces with celebrities. Who's gonna win, this sort of thing.
1:16:56 Billy Corgan? Okay, sure.
1:16:56 Speaker 01 And my son had always loved extreme sports and things like that. Shooting and all of that. And he was really up for it. And he got diagnosed with MS.
1:17:09 Billy Corgan? Right.
1:17:10 Speaker 01 And we had to tell them. And then they went, oh, no, you're a liability. We can't have you. And they just chopped him off at the knee. And I said, well, why doesn't he host it?
1:17:24 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:17:26 Speaker 01 He knows all the language, everything that you're doing. Let him host it. No, he's a liability. And then I just said, fuck you, I'm leaving the show. And I left under such bad circumstances. I couldn't believe the way they were behaving. And I don't care. Because I'm not looking for my next gig.
1:17:50 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:17:50 Speaker 01 So I can turn around and say to them, go fuck yourselves. Take your little TV, shove it up your ass and leave. And they're not used to people talking to them like that.
1:18:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:18:03 Speaker 01 They get like, she's insane, she's this way. I am insane, but it's like...
1:18:08 Billy Corgan? I don't want to rehash the stuff that happened with the talk show, The Talk. But I certainly didn't like the way you were treated. That seemed strange to me.
1:18:19 Speaker 01 It was very, very strange. And I was sticking up for my friend who I've known for years.
1:18:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:18:24 Speaker 01 And I know for a fact, Piers Morgan is not a racist.
1:18:29 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:18:30 Speaker 01 Absolutely not a racist. He's... And I didn't like what they kept saying he was. And I was standing up for him and saying, no way. And why does... Even if he was a racist, which he's not, and a friend of mine, why does that make me a racist? Because I'm his friend.
1:18:50 Billy Corgan? Well, we've lived through this very strange time, which hopefully is ending of this kind of
1:18:55 Speaker 01 I hope so.
1:18:55 Billy Corgan? guilt by association and innuendo and clickbait. And I really hope that we can kind of come out some other side because it's very damaging to the West, where we really are the place of freedom. And we're setting a very terrible example.
1:19:10 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:19:11 Billy Corgan? If we're trying to take away, like, let's call it the ability to even just disagree. You know, I always love that saying, "Let's agree to disagree." It works perfect in a band. You're having the band argument and you say, "You know what, let's just agree to disagree."
1:19:23 Speaker 01 Exactly. And the thing is, because, you know, everybody wants to know, "Who are you voting for?" Well, actually, it's none of your business. Right or wrong. And they either like you or don't like you, depending on who you're voting for. And it's like, it's none of your business.
1:19:40 Billy Corgan? Yeah, well, hopefully, we're coming out of it.
1:19:41 Speaker 01 I hope.
1:19:42 Billy Corgan? I think, please, Jesus.
1:19:47 Billy Corgan? It's sort of a general question, and you can take it any way you want. You've had health struggles, and thank God you got through that. And I saw something where you, they said, "You've been open about your depression, but I don't know what that means." Is that something I just read, or is that true?
1:20:06 Speaker 01 No, it's true. I've had it for years, and...
1:20:10 Billy Corgan? Do you think it's chemical? Or is it sort of unresolved stuff?
1:20:16 Speaker 01 I think back now and things that I've learned and read, and I honestly think it was, I was born with it. I've always had that, you know, put-on-a-jolly-face, showbiz face. And then, you know, when everybody's gone, you're like this. And I've always, always had it. And then, something else. I didn't realize that I had ADHD until last year.
1:20:45 Billy Corgan? That's pretty late in the game to figure that one out.
1:20:50 Speaker 01 I just thought that I had one of those heads that didn't stop, didn't stop. And it's like, you know, I've got the TV going in my head, the radio, and an album. It's like all going on at one time. I've got all of these different things going on, and it's... That was really enlightening because I just thought, why doesn't anybody else have this? And I can't explain it.
1:21:18 Billy Corgan? Would it voice itself in insomnia or nervousness?
1:21:20 Speaker 01 Oh, never sleep.
1:21:21 Billy Corgan? Anxiety and...
1:21:23 Speaker 01 Never sleep. Always been just a couple of hours.
1:21:27 Billy Corgan? Really?
1:21:27 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, I'm up all night. You know, and the head starts, the voices, all the [BLEEP].
1:21:34 Billy Corgan? So, because I think most people look at lives aren't like ours and they say, you know, it's hard for them to relate because in the American estimation, and you've been in America for so long, if you have success, that's the cure-all. And of course, we know that it doesn't work like that. In many ways, I'm not saying it makes it worse. It makes it more difficult because you're navigating public, private,
1:21:58 Billy Corgan? different struggles, so...
1:22:01 Speaker 01 I'm too, in this business, you don't want to show people your insecurities.
1:22:06 Billy Corgan? Oh, no, that's the worst.
1:22:07 Speaker 01 The worst.
1:22:11 Billy Corgan? And maybe that goes back to my question about the public squabbling. And I'm not trying to get anything specific because it's not important to me, but is that maybe part of what made you feel like you had to be feisty? Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know, sometimes it's easier to fend the front gate than when somebody gets to the door, you know?
1:22:31 Speaker 01 I think a lot of it had to do with my time that I was born and also what I did for a profession. There wasn't many women doing it.
1:22:43 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:22:43 Speaker 01 If you were a woman, you were what they called the secretary. And you go and you, you know, you do your letters and you do my appointments and that's what women do. And you look nice and you take care of...
1:22:53 Billy Corgan? When you started managing Ozzy in 1970, whatever, I mean, how many women managers were there in the world?
1:23:00 Speaker 01 I think one, Billy Joel's wife.
1:23:04 Speaker 01 But it's um.
1:23:06 Billy Corgan? It is, it is very much a boys' club.
1:23:10 Speaker 01 Unbelievable, and you know, the record industry in those days was coke. Go to a strip club, get some hookers. Oh, we go to a game and then we go to the strip.
1:23:21 Billy Corgan? Or golf, or.
1:23:22 Speaker 01 Everything, so you were never accepted. And it was either, um, she's here because of her father.
1:23:31 Billy Corgan? Or her husband.
1:23:32 Speaker 01 Or her husband, and it was like, no, fuck you. And it was.
1:23:39 Billy Corgan? No one says fuck you better than you. It just has a ring to it.
1:23:42 Speaker 01 But it just, it was just something that I had to survive. And I, this is all I know.
1:23:48 Billy Corgan? Right.
1:23:48 Speaker 01 I didn't know anything else. This is how I live.
1:23:51 Billy Corgan? So have you survived?
1:23:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, I've done extremely well, learned a lot, horrible mistakes, but nobody's perfect.
1:24:03 Speaker 01 Nobody's perfect.
1:24:04 Billy Corgan? So what hills are left to climb for you? I mean, you've, you have done it all.
1:24:09 Speaker 01 Um, to be a good grandmother.
1:24:13 Billy Corgan? I like that.
1:24:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, a good grandmother, be wise for my grandkids, teach them wise things. And take care of my hubby.
1:24:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:24:27 Billy Corgan? I saw the, the speech he gave at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
1:24:34 Billy Corgan? I guess what I'm after is, it seemed that him getting in on his own was really important. Not because he didn't deserve it, of course he deserves it, he should have been in long ago. But it seemed to strike a particular nerve in him. Is that accurate?
1:24:53 Speaker 01 Yes, because he still thinks, a part of him still thinks that he's less than.
1:25:00 Billy Corgan? It's amazing.
1:25:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was.
1:25:04 Billy Corgan? Well, maybe that's part of his charm, you know, because he really is that guy, you know? I mean, I've met him many times and he really is that guy.
1:25:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, he is.
1:25:13 Billy Corgan? He doesn't have a bad bone in his body. It's, it is kind of remarkable.
1:25:17 Speaker 01 He doesn't, and he has no jealousy, he's um.
1:25:22 Speaker 01 He's happy for everyone that does good and, you know, he is a very delicate soul. And it sounds crazy saying that about Ozzy, but he's a very delicate soul. But all people, I honestly feel that, again, it comes with being a creative force. Really, all artists are delicate.
1:25:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Last thing I want to ask you, because your lives are so intertwined. You know, when did he retire? Like, you remember there was the retirement tour? That was a long ago, right?
1:25:58 Speaker 01 Oh, that was in 92.
1:25:59 Billy Corgan? OK, that's what I'm saying.
1:26:00 Speaker 01 That was because, at that time, he was having problem with one of his legs. And we took him to a doctor, and he was wrongly diagnosed with MS. They said he had MS, but he didn't. He had Parkinson's. But we, the guy just gave us the wrong diagnosis. So I thought he had MS. So I said, OK, we're retiring. We're going back to England. We're taking care of daddy. So when I got to England and I went to some professors, they said he doesn't have MS, which of course he didn't. But they didn't pick up it was Parkinson's because they're very similar.
1:26:41 Billy Corgan? So I guess what I'm after is, it seems like, and you know, it doesn't matter the year, it's just the idea. It seemed at some point, he clicked into a phase, and I think he even saw quotes along the way. This is not recent, but in my mind, that he needed music to keep going. And I'm not saying to live, but it seemed like music kept his spirit up or his...
1:27:06 Speaker 01 He says, his own words are, "It's the only thing I've ever been good at." And he doesn't want to give it up.
1:27:13 Billy Corgan? Well, good for him.
1:27:14 Speaker 01 Yeah. He gets such joy from it. He loves it, just loves it, loves... You know, some people can just kind of cut that side of their life off and then go and retire.
1:27:27 Billy Corgan? And I've seen it, yeah.
1:27:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, me too. He can't, he can't do it. He loves it so much. And that's what's so...
1:27:36 Speaker 01 Tough because, you know, he wants to be with the guys touring and.
1:27:41 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Okay, so last question. Could you have imagined, like, I mean, them on the floor in 1971 at your dad's office? Or you, when you guys fell in love, like, that you guys went on this crazy journey? I mean, it's a really unique, in a way, very American, maybe I'm being biased. America has a way of creating this strange opportunity where people step forward. And, and you and your husband have stepped forward so many times. Even just preparing for the questions, it's like, and then Sharon did this, and then Ozzy did this. And then there's, I mean, we could talk for 18 hours about this tour, or that thing, or this feud. Or, I mean, you've had a very full life. Do you feel that?
1:28:23 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, I'm tired.
1:28:27 Billy Corgan? You?
1:28:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm tired.
1:28:29 Billy Corgan? Does it want to be a grandma now?
1:28:31 Speaker 01 I, listen, I got five of them, five grandkids, and hopefully more. Because Kelly's looking forward to having more babies, but I, I'm tired.
1:28:44 Billy Corgan? Really?
1:28:45 Speaker 01 I, it's okay.
1:28:49 Speaker 01 How about this? I'm not happy at the way the industry's run.
1:28:55 Billy Corgan? Okay. I love, I love this part.
1:28:57 Speaker 01 And I can't keep screaming. I can't keep screaming and trying to make things change. Or it's still, you know, the, the one thing that gets me is, and I try and explain this to all young musicians. If you see a house that you want, you go to the bank, you ask for a mortgage, they will give you the mortgage. You pay off that mortgage, and then the house is yours.
1:29:25 Billy Corgan? Not in the music business.
1:29:26 Speaker 01 Not in the music industry. You pay for your marketing, for everything, and they own that album. And I cannot, and it's, too, the same with, with everything, film, everything. It's like, what are we doing here? And then, you know, now it's, they, they, they're insisting on the publishing and merchandising, and it's.
1:29:55 Speaker 01 It's got to a point where there's so much money in it that they forget that it's human beings that they're dealing with. We're not cars, we're not cans of soup. It's human beings. And it just gets me like this.
1:30:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah. I'll tell you a little story and it's a good way for us to end. I was in a meeting, a big, big meeting. And they were showing me all this data about my band. And they were doing that very kind of subtle way. Like if you could only point this direction, you know, it would be in your best interest to point this direction. And then I asked a question about something to do with radio or something. And they said, well, this station is still mad at you about something you said in 92. This station is mad that you didn't play their
1:30:41 Speaker 01 Summer Festival.
1:30:42 Billy Corgan? Their fish fry in 97. And they just kept going on. And I'm not, I'm not a person who's quick to lose his temper. I'm actually, when I get mad, I get really mad. I don't even think you've ever seen me really mad.
1:30:54 Speaker 01 I haven't, never.
1:30:56 Billy Corgan? I have a horrible temper when I do lose my temper. And out of nowhere, it was like, you know, something snapped and I slammed my fist on the table. And everybody kind of did one of these, like, what the? And I said, quoting Popeye, "I am what I am. The thing that makes me great is the thing that makes me terrible. The thing that you think makes me marketable is the thing that makes somebody want to puke in a bucket and never hear my voice again." I can't separate who I am. I am the way I am. And even in our squabbles in the years, it's like, you are you and I am me.
1:31:35 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:31:36 Billy Corgan? And that's it. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's kind of the way it's supposed to be. They're trying to saw the edges off of the true weirdos and the true one-of-a-kinders, you know? They would love to turn into a cookie dough business.
1:31:50 Speaker 01 Of course, but look at it now with all the Korean bands that come out and all this K-pop.
1:31:58 Billy Corgan? Have you ever heard how they do that music?
1:32:00 Speaker 01 Oh, please, I just
1:32:01 Billy Corgan? Let me just tell you one quick thing. Because I had a friend, he went over there for a while, lived over there a while, ended up hanging out with those people. So they have these rooms. And literally in one room, they'll just write choruses.
1:32:14 Billy Corgan? They don't try to write a song, they just write choruses. And in another room, they have the kids are really good at writing bridges. And in another room, they have kids are really good at writing verses. That's how they do it. So they literally just write verses all day. Because that's what they're good at, these kids. And then, when it's all said and done, they have a pile of a bunch of stuff, they'll go, "I'll take that chorus, that bridge, and that verse." And that's how they make those songs. It's just a factory.
1:32:39 Speaker 01 Oh, it's a complete factory. And, you know, they'll chop these kids up to make them look kind of like more Western. And then, you know, they'll use them, as soon as they get old, out, a younger one comes in, and it's just soul destroying. Totally soul destroying.
1:33:01 Billy Corgan? Well, we're not gonna be able to fix it.
1:33:04 Speaker 01 No, we can't.
1:33:06 Billy Corgan? You know, last thing I would say is like, you saw in your youth, and obviously your daddy saw this amazing moment of rock and roll being born. In the greatest music engine of all time, which was the UK in that period. And then, your husband, you know, and of course, many other pioneers, invented a genre of music that nobody knew existed. Everybody held their nose and said, "To hell with it." And here we all still are, talking about Black Sabbath 60 years later and all this stuff. So, there is some justice, but I think at the end of the day, they still win. I don't know why, I'm just cynical about it. Do you feel that way?
1:33:42 Speaker 01 I am, I am. Listen, one of the guys that runs the biggest record company in the world turns around and goes, "We have to [bleep] the artist before they [bleep] us." And that's your philosophy of running-
1:33:56 Billy Corgan? Did they say that out loud, or you just heard that behind the scenes?
1:33:59 Speaker 01 Out loud.
1:34:00 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:34:01 Speaker 01 And it's like, what? No.
1:34:05 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:34:06 Speaker 01 Why can't it be win-win?
1:34:09 Billy Corgan? Well, I think that gets to the reason why they're in the business. We're in the business because we love it. We love the concert, the lights going down. They're not in the business for the moment the lights go down.
1:34:20 Speaker 01 No. No, they're not.
1:34:23 Billy Corgan? There's always that guy, I remember, it was like, I called it, "I'm the guy." "I'm the guy who signed Nirvana. I'm the guy who found Guns N' Roses. I'm the guy." Usually a guy. So, but we're us. God bless. Thank you for coming.
1:34:36 Speaker 01 It's so good to see you.
1:34:38 Billy Corgan? You too.
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