Pod Insights The Louis Theroux Podcast S6 EP3: Bob Vylan on his controversial Glastonbury performance About this episode Louis is joined by Bobby Vylan, one half of the controversial punk-rap band Bob Vylan. In his first public interview since his contentious performance at Glastonbury - where he led a chant of ‘death to the IDF’ - Bobby discusses why he did it, the subsequent backlash and whether he still stands by the chant.
Warnings: Strong language and adult themes. If you’ve been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com/resources
X Post: Visa Revoke by Deputy Secretary of State
https://x.com/DeputySecState/status/1939697586920997374?lang=en
Article: Chuck D defending Bob Vylan
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/chuck-d-bob-vylan-public-enemy-b2782798.html
Article: Damon Albarn comment
https://www.thetimes.com/culture/music/article/damon-albarn-interview-africa-express-8rsndnd85
Article: IDF soldiers shooting unarmed Gazans
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-06-27/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-soldiers-ordered-to-shoot-deliberately-at-unarmed-gazans-waiting-for-humanitarian-aid/00000197-ad8e-de01-a39f-ffbe33780000
X Post: Ted Cruz thoughts on the chant
https://x.com/tedcruz/status/1939080845702083062
Song: ‘Pretty Songs’, Bob Vylan (2022)
https://open.spotify.com/track/4Xjs3lwUmT32IuYi9KoGRw
Song: ‘England’s Ending’, Bob Vylan (2020)
https://open.spotify.com/album/1kGFhr8FoPJ9jqV8AT0RDA
Article: ‘The Zionist Fallacy of Jewish Supremacy’
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/1/9/the-zionist-fallacy-of-jewish-supremacy
Article: GILEE Program sending officers to Israel https://gilee.gsu.edu/files/2023/09/McDuffie-Progress-Gale-2023.pdf
Song: ‘Drug War’, Bob Vylan (2022)
https://open.spotify.com/track/2kKzKi8dT2NmjVQogIfSwK
Facebook Post: UKIP’s AI image of Bobby
https://www.facebook.com/TheUKIndependenceParty/posts/bob-vylan-is-going-home/1288462819315084/
Song: ‘Cop Killer’, Body Count (1992)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XihXOw634o
Song: ‘Fuck Tha Police’, N. W. A (1988)
https://open.spotify.com/track/5n8Aro6j1bEGIy7Tpo7FV7?si=e30bfbfb94694acb
IHRA Antisemitism definition:
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
Article: Antisemitism definition controversy
https://www.newyorker.com/news/persons-of-interest/the-problem-with-defining-antisemitism
CST Antisemitic report 2025:
https://cst.org.uk/news/blog/2025/08/06/antisemitic-incidents-report-january-june-2025
Credits:
Producer: Millie Chu
Assistant Producer: Maan Al-Yasiri
Production Manager: Francesca Bassett
Music: Miguel D’Oliveira
Audio Mixer: Tom Guest
Video Mixer: Scott Edwards
Shownotes compiled by Elly Young
Executive Producer: Arron Fellows
A Mindhouse Production for Spotify
www.mindhouse.co.uk
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Transcript 0:05 Speaker 00 Hello there, welcome to another episode of the Louis Theroux Podcast.
0:19 Speaker 00 For this episode, I sat down with Bobby Villen, not his real name, but we'll come to that. He's one half of English punk rap duo Bob Villen. The other half is also called Bobby Villen. Yes, it's confusing. The other Bobby is spelt with an ie. Anyway, it's not his name either. And neither of them are related to Bob Dylan. Why would they be? It's a different word. Bob Villen are a London-based punk rap duo. They use a mixture of punk, hip-hop, grime and hardcore. I would say especially punk. And to the Bob Villen point, I think it's not coincidental it's sort of referencing Sid Vicious, Johnny Rotten. It's a punk, uh, what's the word, nom de guerre?
1:04 Speaker 00 Stage name. Their music centres around social and political issues, criticising inequality, racism, sexism and homophobia. Many of you will be familiar with the band, though, because of their controversial set at this year's Glastonbury Festival, where Bobby led the crowd in a chant, decrying, denouncing, deploring, calling for an end to, all of this is relevant to the chat, to the IDF, the Israeli Defence Force. Some deemed it to be antisemitic. Either way, it prompted a media storm, and we go into this in some detail. In the wake of all this, the band have been subject to a criminal investigation. They've had gigs cancelled, visas revoked, and been the subject of a debate for pundits and politicians across the world,
1:48 Speaker 00 all of which we speak about in the interview. Bobby has not spoken publicly about this before, which makes it all the more charged, I suppose. There's a chat, there's a lot of speculation about, I suppose, what he meant and, you know, how we should, what construction we, the listeners, should be putting on it. He reached out to me, DMing me on Instagram and said he wanted to speak.
2:14 Speaker 00 So all of that was part of why I decided to have Bobby on. We recorded this conversation on the first of October this year in a central London studio. I should add that this was before the Manchester synagogue attacks on the second of October, in which two people were killed and three others injured. More recently, there's been pressure on a venue in Manchester from MPs and some Jewish leaders to cancel Bob Villain's upcoming show in Manchester in November.
2:44 Speaker 00 A warning, this episode contains the strongest of language, including racial language and other adult themes. All of that coming up after this.
3:12 Speaker 00 Do you need anything? Would you like a tea or a coffee?
3:14 Speaker 01 No, I'm all right.
3:15 Speaker 00 I've got a coffee coming. I've read that you're, I think it was in an interview, you talked about how coffee made you nervy or jumpy?
3:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, I can't have coffee because, well, I mean, I can have it if I wanted to, obviously, but it's more so like I was, you know, have trouble getting to Steve or whatever and...
3:33 Speaker 00 You're quite health-conscious.
3:34 Speaker 01 Extremely so, yeah.
3:36 Speaker 00 Your veganism became a matter of the public record on the day after the Glastonbury event. Everyone was like, well, he's militant on stage and now he's eating vegan ice cream. Some people were confused by that.
3:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, I suppose it maybe seems a bit weird that somebody would be on stage saying that and then be vegan, maybe? I don't know, I don't know. It's like, my veganism is also kind of part of my politics.
4:04 Speaker 00 Is it?
4:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:05 Speaker 00 In what way?
4:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, in the sense that like, you know, having compassion for living things, you know? Also being health-conscious, growing up in a working-class environment, seeing how certain foods and education around healthy eating is kind of not offered to us.
4:32 Speaker 01 It became something that I became quite aware of and wanted to make sure that I was as healthy as I possibly could be.
4:39 Speaker 00 You looked healthy when I saw you on stage, I was at Glastonbury.
4:44 Speaker 01 Oh, okay.
4:44 Speaker 00 There's a lot to react to about the set. Shall we start with the elephant? I mean, there's a few different elephants, but there's a lot going on. And also, because around all this, there's a controversy that sprang off, everything that happened with Glasto, with your comments on stage, a chant, "Death, death to the IDF", then that led to this ripple effect, you became an international news story. Shall we get into Glasto? It was an amazing atmosphere because Kneecap were going to be the story of the festival. There'd been pressure on the organisers to cancel Kneecap because of their outspoken
5:23 Speaker 00 political content and there was pressure, maybe even on the BBC, to not broadcast Kneecap. Obviously, for those who don't know, Kneecap's a political Irish band. And they were dealing with their own legal issues around some of their political output. So you were on before Kneecap. So there was this huge, I mean, many of them were there to see you, but some of them were there to see Kneecap. And so there was just this, I remember there was a message that went out an hour before saying, like, "No more people can come to West Halt's stage, it's too packed."
5:55 Speaker 01 Right.
5:56 Speaker 00 And you did your show, the Free Palestine chant went up, and then you said something along the lines of, "Forgive me if it's not verbatim, I've got a new one for you." And then, so, okay, what's this going to be? And it was "Death, death to the IDF." And I remember looking around thinking, like, okay, that's raised it up a notch, for sure. Some people chanted along, some didn't. But that then became an international incident with some people saying, "This is exactly what should be said amidst a genocide amidst literally thousands of people, many of them children, being killed in Gaza," right? And then other people saying, "He's calling for soldiers to be killed, it's a conscription
6:38 Speaker 00 army, is he saying that actually Israeli soldiers should be killed wherever they are? Like, is he asking for the actual murder of soldiers as they wander around?" And that was extrapolated into the idea that it was an anti-Semitic chant. And the Israeli Embassy, I think, made a statement. It became very charged. I don't think I need to tell you that, right?
6:57 Speaker 01 What was the statement that the Israeli government made?
7:01 Speaker 00 Well, I could look up the embassy. I don't know what the government said.
7:04 Speaker 01 Oh, you said embassy.
7:06 Speaker 00 The embassy specifically.
7:07 Speaker 01 Right, right.
7:08 Speaker 00 I could dig it up. Do you want me to?
7:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, please, because I actually don't know. I actually, there was a lot going on at the time.
7:14 Speaker 00 There we go. Israeli embassy said it was, quote, "deeply disturbed by the inflammatory and hateful rhetoric expressed on stage, which, quote, 'advocate for the dismantling of the state of Israel and show the normalization of extremist language and the glorification of violence.'" Keir Starmer called it appalling hate speech, and on and on. Was that more of what you expected?
7:40 Speaker 01 No, I had no expectations. Honestly, I hadn't heard it, I hadn't seen it. Because obviously, there was a lot happening at the time. Do you know what I mean?
7:49 Speaker 00 But walk me through what happened, then. Like, you come offstage.
7:53 Speaker 01 We come offstage, and everyone's like, "Great show, fantastic." We waited for our buggy to pick us up and take us to the van so we could go home.
8:04 Speaker 00 Right, there's a little buggy. There's golf buggies that ferry that. I learnt that at Glasto for the first time. There's golf buggies that go.
8:10 Speaker 01 Is that the first festival you've ever been to?
8:11 Speaker 00 No, no, I've been to Glasto three times, but I'd never been backstage and been on a buggy. And been ridden around the little secret. It's like the hacks on a video game. You can hack Glastonbury. So you get on your buggy. This isn't about the buggy.
8:25 Speaker 01 No, it's not about the buggy. But just to kind of show how mundane the whole thing was. It wasn't like we came offstage and everybody was like, "It's just normal. We come offstage, it's normal." Nobody for anything. Nobody. And even, even staff at the BBC were like, "Fantastic, that was fantastic. That was fantastic. We loved that."
8:49 Speaker 00 That's such an NPC manoeuvre, though, isn't it? It's like, any band comes off, you go, "You smashed it, fantastic."
8:54 Speaker 01 No, but that was like, this was, this was a couple hours later. It took us a little while to get, but like, you know, they've, nobody at the BBC at that time was there, like.
9:08 Speaker 01 Oh my gosh, you know, but it was very normal. And then we got back and then, yeah, like I said, we went and got ice cream and obviously kind of.
9:17 Speaker 00 Somewhere in near Glasto, what in Yeovil?
9:19 Speaker 01 No, this is when we got back to London.
9:21 Speaker 00 Okay.
9:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, when we got back to London. Yeah. So we're just hanging out.
9:24 Speaker 00 That's a long drive back to London though. You're not, is your phone not blowing up? Is your phone not blowing up at this point?
9:29 Speaker 01 Uh, yeah, to a certain extent, but again, it's hard to say what's, what's happening because, oh, you've been at Glastonbury and what's happening because of the chant itself, you know, specifically.
9:42 Speaker 00 So the chant's been the subject of endless analysis, right?
9:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:46 Speaker 00 And interpretation. A BBC executive complaints unit kicked into gear. They, they published a decision on the 26th of September saying, taken in the round, the comments from River to the Sea and fucking Zionists and death to the O D F could be construed as antisemitic for perpetuating stereotypes of Jewish influence. But that basically said death to the IDF wasn't likely to lead to anyone being attacked because it's an institution rather than individuals and not defined by ethnic or religious composition. Thus it did not meet the threshold for incitement. It's been said there was a Avon and Somerset criminal investigation that's still active.
10:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, there's two. There's two criminal investigations that are still active.
10:32 Speaker 00 Then various people made various different kind of comments and put it in different contexts. Chuck D came to your defence.
10:39 Speaker 01 That's the homie, bro. I was speaking to him yesterday.
10:41 Speaker 00 Did you?
10:42 Speaker 01 Yes.
10:43 Speaker 00 From Public Enemy? That's more my vintage. What was he saying to you? Is he, is he, is he sort of giving you a little bit of advice or just being a friendly, a friendly presence in your life?
10:53 Speaker 01 A friendly presence, I'd say, yeah. And a mutual appreciation is shared.
10:58 Speaker 00 Nice.
10:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, which is nice.
11:01 Speaker 00 He said, when, when people say death to a country, they're not saying death to a people. The legendary rapper explained, they're saying death to imperialism, death to colonialism. Bob Villain ain't got no tanks, as far as we know.
11:18 Speaker 00 And then, on the other side of the fence, who else have we got? I mean, we sort of talked about this. The UK's chief rabbi, Ephraim Mervis, called the episode a "national shame". He said, "Toxic Jew hatred is a threat to our entire society." I guess the construction is that-
11:35 Speaker 01 Who else did you find?
11:36 Speaker 00 Who was basically critical? I mean, there's quite a few of them. Well, you know this one, because you responded. Damon Albarn, from Blur, said, "It was one of the most spectacular misfires I've seen in my life", especially when he started goose-stepping in tennis gear.
11:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:50 Speaker 00 I think he was being hyperbolic. I know Damon a little bit, I'm declaring an interest-
11:54 Speaker 01 I think there's no space to be hyperbolic in that, especially given what we were accused of.
12:02 Speaker 01 Being accused of being anti-Semitic was disappointing. Because it lacked self-awareness, I think, his response. And I just want to say that categorizing it as a spectacular misfire, right, implies that somehow the politics of the band or our stance on Palestinian liberation is not thought out. And as a more senior, experienced, he's a veteran artist. He's been in this industry for a long time.
12:42 Speaker 01 I think that there were other ways that he could have handled, you know, that question being fielded to him. And I take great issue with the phrase "goose-stepping" being used, because it's only used around Nazi Germany. That's it. And for him to use that language, I think is disgusting. I think his response was disgusting. Especially when you look at it in comparison to Chuck Dees' response, who is as equally seasoned in this music industry and is a veteran. And his response was-
13:27 Speaker 01 Again, not because it was more favorable to us, but because he understood. But naturally, of course, Chuck D from Public Enemy is gonna understand where we are coming from with our politics, more so than so Damon Albarn.
13:46 Speaker 00 Do you, um, just to be really super basic.
13:53 Speaker 00 Fuck the IDF, I think, dispatchingly, like, would be quite relatively easy to defend, I think, from that political position, right? Death to the IDF is obviously a step up from that. What does it mean, in your view? Because you're saying the people who take from that, oh, um, if you see an IDF soldier, kill him. There were many commentators who would have put that interpretation on it. So I think I'm inviting you to give your version of what that means. And maybe even with a spirit of, like, can you see how some people might have seen it the other way?
14:33 Speaker 01 I mean, my, my whole issue with this thing is that the chant is so unimportant. It's so unimportant, like, and the response to it was so disproportionate. What is important is the conditions that exist to allow that chant to even take place on that stage. And I mean, the conditions that exist in Palestine, where the Palestinian people are being killed at an alarming rate. Who cares about the chant?
15:18 Speaker 01 You know, like, it's like, what is it that is allowing for that chant to even exist? That's what the focus should have always been on, so.
15:30 Speaker 00 What is, what does it mean?
15:34 Speaker 01 What's it, what was it mean?
15:35 Speaker 00 Death to the IDF, yeah.
15:38 Speaker 01 You tell me what you think it means.
15:41 Speaker 00 I guess my starting point is, and speaking, you know, because
15:47 Speaker 00 we've got very different life experiences. I'm conscious of all the privilege I've enjoyed.
15:54 Speaker 00 Which is my long wind up to saying, I was talking to the team about this, like, I don't think there's any chant that starts with death to
16:05 Speaker 00 that I'd be especially comfortable with, even like-
16:08 Speaker 01 Death to capitalism?
16:10 Speaker 00 Death to capitalism, death to pedophiles, death to Nazis, death to, you know, someone who opposes the death penalty, I suppose. Death to the death penalty, it's kind of paradox, but you know what I mean, like, it just doesn't-
16:23 Speaker 01 All right, let's take that, I like that, death to the death penalty. What's it mean?
16:28 Speaker 00 So death to, yeah, it means, so I, I think the construction you'd put on it is that it means an end to, but obviously-
16:37 Speaker 01 An end to?
16:38 Speaker 00 Yeah.
16:39 Speaker 01 An end to the oppression that Palestinian people are facing, an end to the apartheid regime that has been created. An end to that. End, end, the IDF does not rhyme.
16:53 Speaker 01 Wouldn't have caught on, would it? Do you know what I mean? Because that is what we're up there to do. We are there to entertain, we are there to, to play music. I am a lyricist, right?
17:10 Speaker 01 Death, death to IDF rhymes. Perfect chant.
17:17 Speaker 00 The following week, people in the audience started chanting it and you said, no, no, don't, stop that, you're gonna get me in trouble.
17:22 Speaker 01 Because at that point, we had the criminal investigation was, was fresh.
17:30 Speaker 01 And I was unsure of what the legal ramifications would be.
17:38 Speaker 00 Is it legally okay now?
17:43 Speaker 01 The investigation's still going on.
17:47 Speaker 01 But people chant at the show, let them chant it. But at that moment as well, I suppose it's important to to understand like where we were in terms of the the the media, right? Anything, everything, it was just like they're waiting there. So they wanna see like, is he gonna say it again? Is he gonna think whatever? So in an attempt to make sure I wasn't shooting myself in the foot when it comes to the criminal investigation. Because the last thing I wanna do is help London Met. Seems like the appropriate thing to do, you know?
18:24 Speaker 00 The other thing to reflect on is it was alleged that after the Glasto set, there was an uptick in antisemitic incidents. Did you see that?
18:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, I saw it.
18:34 Speaker 00 The Community Security Trust, an antisemitism monitoring charity.
18:40 Speaker 00 They noted that twenty ninth of June saw the highest daily total of antisemitic incidents in the first half of twenty twenty five. That's a report in The Guardian.
18:49 Speaker 01 What are they counting as antisemitic incidents?
18:52 Speaker 00 I don't know.
18:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, cuz I didn't see what they were counting as antisemitic incidents when I when I read it in The Guardian either. I wonder how you would find that out because in the reporting, no one seemed to press on that quite key detail. What are we claiming is antisemitic?
19:11 Speaker 00 But do you I do think it's fair to say that there's a lot of nervousness in the Jewish community in general. Is that in your head at all? The possibility of like creating an unsafe atmosphere for the Jewish community?
19:26 Speaker 01 Me creating an unsafe atmosphere?
19:29 Speaker 00 Well, that's what you've been accused of, isn't it?
19:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't I don't think I have created an unsafe atmosphere for the Jewish community. If someone if if like there were like
19:42 Speaker 01 large numbers of people being like going out and Bob Dylan made me do this.
19:48 Speaker 01 Then maybe I might go, oof, I've had a negative impact here. Like, again, in that, whatever, that that report.
19:59 Speaker 01 What definition are they going by? We don't know that.
20:06 Speaker 01 So it's kind of hard to have a
20:10 Speaker 01 to add anything to that, I suppose.
20:12 Speaker 00 We're gonna find out. A little bit of suspense for people to listen to the end. Let's do justice to the level of the fallout. There was an American tour that was planned. And did Trump himself weigh in?
20:25 Speaker 01 I don't think he publicly weighed in. But Christopher Landau, the Deputy Secretary of State, he weighed in. I suppose the explaining it. We had US visas that allowed us to go and work in America. And somebody has tweeted their local senator or something like this, saying these guys' visas should be removed. He then has talked to Christopher Landau. And Christopher Landau has said, I'm gonna sort this out. I then get an email
21:07 Speaker 01 saying your visa has been revoked.
21:10 Speaker 01 He then tweets out, done.
21:12 Speaker 00 That's how it took place?
21:13 Speaker 01 That's how it took place. You know, you can go and you can look back at the tweets. So when the State Department spokesperson, Tammy Bruce, was questioned about it and the journalist that asked the question. He said, for years and years, decades in fact, the mantra has been visa records are confidential. She didn't have an answer as to why, in this specific instance, the visa was removed publicly.
21:48 Speaker 00 So what's your point?
21:49 Speaker 01 My point is that they have done that specifically seeing the media attention and the discourse that it created and have sought to suppress that from happening any further and any other artist doing a similar thing. It's a scare tactic. And also possibly to make us persona non grata. Don't stand next to this band. It might hurt your chances of getting your visa. It might show that, you know, you're supporting.
22:30 Speaker 01 Somebody that they deem, you know, a pariah.
22:34 Speaker 00 You got dropped by your agents?
22:37 Speaker 01 Yes.
22:38 Speaker 00 U T A, is it?
22:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, so they were, yeah. I mean, again, it should be.
22:44 Speaker 01 I don't want to put anyone in the shit, you know. The call came on the Sunday. We played on Saturday. On Sunday, that's when our agent called and was like, look, guys, I've got to let you go. He said that it's come from the most senior members of the company. He didn't have any choice. It was either we go or he goes. And even if he goes, we don't get to stay. We go too. So that was kind of like how that transpired. I don't, like, me and him are still, you know, he's cool.
23:27 Speaker 00 Is he still at U T A?
23:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
23:30 Speaker 00 You could argue it became a massive distraction, right? And maybe was deliberately weaponized as a distraction tactic. Owen Jones said in his commentary a day earlier, this is before Glastonbury. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz revealed that Israeli soldiers and officers had confessed they'd been ordered to shoot at unarmed Palestinians as they cued for aid. At the same time, Ted Cruz, the American senator, is using you and the chant as a stick to beat anyone who disagrees with Israeli policy with like, I mean, that's an American senator with a huge international profile. So I guess you, it's a distraction, but in that sense, maybe it's a tactical error.
24:15 Speaker 00 Even if, leaving aside the morality of it or otherwise, you could say you've opened the door to. The possibility of people weaponizing a chant and just getting obsessed with that instead of focusing on the real issue.
24:28 Speaker 01 But they were doing everything they could to not focus on the real issue anyway. And it's not like they were so focused on the well-being of Palestinian people in the first place. And then, oh no, here comes Bob Villain and distracts us all. And now we have to comment on this, you know?
24:47 Speaker 00 No, it wouldn't have changed their outlook, but it gave, you could argue that it gave them an opportunity to distract millions of people, hundreds of thousands of people and say like, here, here, this is, this is the problem. It's not what, it's not people being killed, civilians being bombed and killed and children being bombed and killed in Gaza. The problem is we got a punk rock actor, artist, saying death to the idea of that becomes a, um, an opportunity to misdirect.
25:12 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, but then even with you saying that, like, listen to how ridiculous it sounds, do you know what I mean? Um, it's ridiculous.
25:22 Speaker 00 I think it, I think it kind of worked for some though, didn't it?
25:27 Speaker 01 I don't know, because I think shortly after they were done battering us, the tide started to change a little bit.
25:39 Speaker 00 In what way?
25:43 Speaker 01 Well, I think having to have that conversation about the chant, as they were all having amongst themselves, it created this discourse within the media of, is the chant right? Is it okay to say, is it, and it's, is it this, is it that? And then that gave platform to certain people, maybe like Owen Jones, that would come on and say, well, actually, this is what we should be focusing on. We need to focus the attention back onto Gaza, back onto the people of Palestine and we need to, and he's laying out facts and presenting his argument. I think like, it allowed for that conversation to have a new life, almost, because unfortunately,
26:27 Speaker 01 people have short attention spans and watching people being killed every day.
26:38 Speaker 01 In real time, for the last two years, so so vividly, so prominently. I think a lot of people just got numb to it. They stopped even seeing these individuals as actual people. Start seeing them as numbers. But it's disgusting. Who cares about the chant? Why is that the conversation that they're having? But I do think within that conversation, it allowed
27:06 Speaker 01 to bring the issue back
27:10 Speaker 01 to the front page.
27:12 Speaker 00 Do you stand by the chant? And would you chant that on stage now?
27:17 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, like what if I was to go on Glastonbury again tomorrow? Yeah, I would do it again. I'm not, I'm not regretful of it. I'm not regretful of it. All right. I'd do it again tomorrow, twice on Sundays. All right. I'm not regretful of it. At all. Like, the subsequent backlash that I've faced is minimal. It's minimal compared to what people in Palestine are going through. If that can be my contribution and if I can have my Palestinian friends and people that I meet
27:58 Speaker 01 from Palestine, I've had to flee, that I've lost members in double digits of their family. And they can say, yo, like, your chant, I love it. Or it gave me a breath of fresh air or whatever. And I don't want to overstate the importance of the chant. That's not what I'm trying to do. But like, if I have their support and that's the, they're the people that I'm, I'm, I'm doing it for. They're the people that I'm being vocal for.
28:30 Speaker 01 Then what is there to regret? Or because I've upset some right wing politician, some right wing media?
28:35 Speaker 00 This feels apropos. This is from Pretty Songs, which I saw you perform at Glasto. The lyric is, no liberal lefty cunt is going to tell me punching Nazis ain't in the way. That feels quite apropos to this conversation.
28:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, we should do like a project where you just read out lyrics that way. You can read out the whole song. It's quite, it's quite enjoyable.
28:58 Speaker 00 Is it? It's kind of my way, but you know, I, I know you're like, you're in this sort of grime punk genre, but rappers, especially where, you know, grime and drill artists where they're like, I'm not talking about any of that. I'm not talking about that. And then it's all in the lyrics, like basically full confessions.
29:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, except for they're doing.
29:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
29:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:17 Speaker 00 Heady one. When I dug into the lyrics, I was like, well, let's see what's in the paper trail. In 2020 on England's ending, you said, this country's in dire need of a fucking spanking, mate. Spanking sounds relatively benign compared with some of the other things. Look, look it over. Get the fucking dinosaurs out. Yeah. And kill the fucking queen. That escalated quickly. She killed Diana. We don't love her anyway.
29:44 Speaker 00 That's it. I would have thought that would have got some pickup. Did anyone react badly to that?
29:49 Speaker 01 Nah. I mean, I'm sure they would after your podcast. Thanks for dragging that up.
29:54 Speaker 00 You were trying to keep that quiet.
29:56 Speaker 01 No, I'm not trying to keep it quiet. I mean, it's there, isn't it? For everybody to go and listen to, but, you know. But that's, that's the issue that we now face, I suppose, as a band that has been thrust into the limelight or whatever, you know, because it should be noted that like, I was very, very happy with where the band was. Very happy, you know, like if people came up, they were fans of the band.
30:24 Speaker 01 The shows sold great and people bought the music and they, you know, like, I was extremely happy with how everything was. And then we were made famous by
30:37 Speaker 01 the media, tabloids and the news, you know.
30:43 Speaker 01 And so now all of a sudden you have people that do not know anything about the band. And they will take the tiniest little thing or, you know, lyric or, and it's just, and it becomes like a talking point and like a, a, a way of getting their political agenda across, you know, it's just, it's kind of like, and obviously that's not something that we have control of.
31:15 Speaker 01 But that's where we are as a band. So when you say those, whatever, certain lines, it's like, it's not, no, of course, not trying to keep it secret. Otherwise I'd just remove the song from streaming platforms or whatever. But it's more so those type of people that are not looking to enjoy the music, they're not looking to learn about the band. They're looking to just pile on, you know. Um, I don't feel any need in helping them do that, you know.
32:09 Speaker 00 Shall we talk about how you came up a little bit? Like, I know you, you, you, did you grow up in Ipswich, is that right?
32:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:17 Speaker 01 But I also spent plenty of time in, in London.
32:22 Speaker 00 You haven't, you haven't done a huge number of interviews. You also, you use Bob Villain, that's like, obviously the name of the band, but you go by Bobby Villain. Is it, uh, what would be the term, nom de plume? But what, there is a sort of certain air of mystique or mystery or even secrecy around aspects of you. Do you choose not to make too much of your private life public?
32:48 Speaker 01 Of course, of course. For multiple reasons. The band has always been political, right? Like they're, like before Glass and Beer, whatever, whatever, like the band has always been what the band is. And again, kind of like what I mentioned earlier, is that we understand that there are people that do not feel the same way. And they feel strongly the opposite way. So of course you want to make sure that, you know, your, your privacy is, is protected. And there is also this entitlement that people may have of like, who do you go out with? Who's your boyfriend? Who's your girlfriend? Where do you live? How much money do you make? How do you, do you have kids? Do you have this, do you know what I mean?
33:33 Speaker 01 It's like, I have no interest in, in, in, in giving them any more information than I. Have to or I desire about my private life, you know.
33:44 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
33:45 Speaker 01 Um, yeah, so I grew up in Ipswich.
33:48 Speaker 00 Did you feel like you were struggling, because there's references to struggling in the, in, in the lyrics.
33:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:54 Speaker 00 Was it just you and mum?
33:56 Speaker 01 Uh, I've got other, I've got, I've got other family members. Yeah, I've got siblings.
33:59 Speaker 00 Oh my god, other family members.
34:00 Speaker 01 Got siblings. And I do have a dad as well.
34:03 Speaker 00 Just shout out to the dad.
34:05 Speaker 01 Shout out to dad because the internet loves to kind of, you know, where was his dad? I bet his dad's not in the picture like me and my dad are. Do you know what I mean?
34:14 Speaker 00 Yeah.
34:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, so, yeah, but yeah, I mean, yeah, for sure. We lived in like, you know, whatever. I wanna go like, oh, we lived in the council housing, but like, we lived in council housing and we didn't have tons of money. But we kind of had what we needed. We had a roof over our head and we had clothes on our back and we had food and, you know. But obviously there are reminders, um, oftentimes coming from my mum that we don't have money. Do you know what I mean?
34:47 Speaker 00 You did a masters?
34:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, I did. Thank you for bringing that up.
34:51 Speaker 00 Yeah.
34:52 Speaker 01 No, but in all seriousness, it would have been easy to just be like, kind of paint a certain picture.
34:56 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
34:56 Speaker 01 Um, uh, but yes, I did.
34:59 Speaker 00 In what?
34:59 Speaker 01 I did undergrad in music production and technology and then I did my masters in music. And I have plans to do my PhD as well.
35:08 Speaker 00 Do you?
35:08 Speaker 01 Yes. Um, you're gonna get people as, he's a, he's middle class. He's, he's this and he's that now because of that.
35:17 Speaker 00 He's educated himself into the middle class.
35:19 Speaker 01 God forbid. But, you know, I mean.
35:22 Speaker 00 It is what it is.
35:22 Speaker 01 But no, I think, um, but it is interesting because obviously like I see those things are like on the internet of like, because I've got a double-barreled last name, because I went to university, there is like an assumption that, um, like I'm privately educated, which I don't know where that came from. Um.
35:42 Speaker 00 But does that bother you?
35:43 Speaker 01 No, I don't think, no, it doesn't bother me. Absolutely not.
35:46 Speaker 00 Is it true? Not the private part, but the idea that you lead a sort of. What would it be, a kind of middle-class bourgeois lifestyle?
35:55 Speaker 01 Absolutely not, bro. I definitely don't.
35:57 Speaker 00 What would that even mean to you?
35:59 Speaker 01 I suppose it would mean that, like, I have a relative.
36:02 Speaker 00 Shop at Waitrose. You'd probably shop at Whole Foods, though, don't you?
36:05 Speaker 01 Uh, nah, bro. I'm an Aldi guy.
36:09 Speaker 00 Are you?
36:09 Speaker 01 Hundred percent. Aldi, Lidl. That's, that's where I'm shopping, man. Waitrose? You're mad, bro. No. I wouldn't. Do you know how expensive that is in there? It's crazy expensive in Waitrose.
36:22 Speaker 00 I haven't been recently.
36:23 Speaker 01 I've been there maybe once or twice and I'm just like, this is... Yeah, they say, yeah. But it doesn't bother me.
36:30 Speaker 00 Do you like the own-brand stuff at Aldi? Like, sometimes you're like, oh, that's just as good as, you know, whatever, like, Heinz beans or whatever, you know, ketchup. But then I tried to get some of the cereal. You know, they've got this-
36:44 Speaker 01 I think you might need to pull them back.
36:45 Speaker 00 You know, they've got a cereal thing called Harvest Morn is their cereal brand?
36:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:50 Speaker 00 I showed, and then you get, like-
36:51 Speaker 01 I get the wheat a bit to that.
36:52 Speaker 00 Craves or whatever, six pounds. But Harvest Morn Chocky Pillows, whatever they are,
36:57 Speaker 01 Hmm.
36:58 Speaker 00 They're like two pounds fifty. I mean, that's a three-pound saving. That's significant.
37:02 Speaker 01 I don't eat them, so I have wheat a bit.
37:04 Speaker 00 Well, I'm not talking specifically that, but I'm making a general point.
37:07 Speaker 01 I wouldn't know about them.
37:08 Speaker 00 I'm just-
37:09 Speaker 01 I feel like he's filibustering me.
37:11 Speaker 00 This is like, they've got these clone brands. I'm, I'm, it's a slight obsession, sorry.
37:15 Speaker 01 I was gonna make a point of, um, how people's assumption of me being, uh, whatever, middle-class because I'm, because of educating myself or whatever, um, is steeped in racism. But we should probably talk about Harvest Morn and,
37:32 Speaker 00 Whoa.
37:33 Speaker 01 and, and cereal from Aldi and the deals that we can get.
37:37 Speaker 00 Sardonic Dunk noted. Um, the-
37:45 Speaker 00 You know, you reached out to me on Insta, didn't you?
37:47 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
37:47 Speaker 00 Saying like, you know, if you want to do a chat, let's hook it up. And we did. Was there something that you wanted to? I mean, I think we've covered a lot, but.
37:53 Speaker 01 Go on, sorry.
37:54 Speaker 00 What was it that you were thinking about? Do you feel like you haven't had a chance? Because Piers Morgan must have reached out and said, I'd love to get you on the on the show, right?
38:01 Speaker 01 Anybody you can think of, everybody, everybody and anybody you can think of. Fox News, GB News, all of that, Piers Morgan.
38:11 Speaker 00 And why did you not go on any of those?
38:13 Speaker 01 Well, you know why. Everybody else knows why. But I suppose like, you know, those kind of shows are not looking to explore the nuances around anything that's taken place. They're not looking to have any kind of meaningful conversation. Before you know it, you know, they're they're kind of, do you condemn this? And oh, but you've said this and da, da, da, da. And you're not really given any kind of chance to speak. But, you know, so I figured I'd come here and listen to you talk about serial.
38:43 Speaker 00 God, that's really become a thing. But what was it that you were thinking about? Or was there anything specific? What was the thing that I'm inviting you, I'm giving you a free hit?
38:52 Speaker 01 I do think we've I do think we've spoken about a lot of a lot of a lot of it. I think I I think it is important to kind of reiterate that the focus should have never been on the band and Bob Villain, and it should have always been on the conditions that allow for that chant to exist.
39:18 Speaker 00 But you've got to own part of that because the world is the way it is, right?
39:21 Speaker 01 The world is the way it is. But yes, of course, the world is the way it is. But the people with the power to change it are not changing it. That's really kind of what I, you know, what I wanted to get across. And also, I suppose, use it as a somewhat cathartic process of just, you know, speaking about it and adding my voice to the to the to the fight, I suppose. Because, of course, we've been, I mean, we've been attacked like nobody else has. I think maybe I'm being naive or maybe I'm kind of focusing too much on self there. But like, I think we've been attacked to a degree that I haven't really seen anybody else attacked for speaking up about this issue.
40:02 Speaker 00 You're in kneecap.
40:10 Speaker 01 That's an interesting one.
40:14 Speaker 01 It's an interesting one because as with everything, race comes to play a part in that. We're an easier villain, no pun intended, than they are because we are already the enemy. So you don't really need to give much context as to why the British public should hate us.
40:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's tricky, but I mean, yeah.
40:38 Speaker 00 You think they've had an easier ride?
40:39 Speaker 01 I'm not saying it like that. I don't want to say it like that because I'm not trying to compare the struggles of whatever outspoken bands, whatnot, but I think it's important to look at that. I think it's important to look at the way that race plays a part in even the way this country presents its enemies. Ultimately, the fight is against white supremacy, right? That is what the fight is against. And I think white supremacy is displayed so vividly
41:19 Speaker 01 in Zionist.
41:23 Speaker 00 They'd say, "We're not white, we're Jewish," right?
41:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. People have written about this, you know? People have written about viewing the Zionist movement and
41:37 Speaker 01 the war crimes being committed by Israel through the lens of white supremacy.
41:45 Speaker 01 I think his name is Yoav Lippin. He has written about it. He's a doctor of psychology. He's also a photographer, but he's a writer as well. He's written about it. And I think you can see it quite clearly when you start to look at the relationship between Israel and the United States, for example, where American police, American law enforcement, have direct relationships with the IDF and are sent there to train.
42:16 Speaker 01 In Georgia, they have something called the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange Program, and it has been sending people to Israel to train for the last thirty-one years. And those tactics are then exported directly to the US soil, and they are then used, as we know, disproportionately in black and brown communities. In 2015, the Atlanta Chief of Police has said that the surveillance tactics used in downtown Atlanta were directly inspired by those that he saw in Jerusalem.
42:56 Speaker 01 So I think it's important to not just view what Israel is doing as like, they want to call it a war or a conflict, it's a genocide, but it's not an isolated thing. It needs to be looked at and viewed through the wider lens of white supremacy and the impact that it has on people of color throughout the world.
43:14 Speaker 00 I think I'd add to that, there's an even more macro lens which you can put on it, which is that Jewish identity in the Jewish community as expressed in Israel is, has become almost like an acceptable, quote unquote, way of understanding ethno-nationalism, and so it's like they're prototyping an aggressive militarized form of ethno-nationalism, which is then rolled out, whether it's by people like Viktor Orban in Hungary or Trump in the US. It's become, sort of, in certain sense, a post-Holocaust Jewish exceptionalism or Zionist exceptionalism has become a role model on the national stage for what these white identitarians would like to do in their own countries. Does that make sense?
43:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
44:00 Speaker 00 And I think that's the, and that's the part, and I thought, so I think there's a lot of cynicism about, because I think actually, a lot of the people who claiming to act as like friends of the Jewish community. That's the thin end of a wedge that will end up excluding Jewish people and excluding anyone who doesn't match the description of kind of traditional British racial type.
44:23 Speaker 01 Well, I suppose because, you know, we'll see that possibly play out in the United States. I don't want to say immediately, but you know, in the possible not so distant future.
44:36 Speaker 00 Yes, big time.
44:37 Speaker 01 That is, that's, that's, that's the point I was making, you know, is that like there is, it needs to be viewed through a wider lens, a much wider lens.
44:48 Speaker 00 But I didn't, I noticed on Spotify that you got a date advertised in, in the US coming up.
44:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's like probably from the tour that, that we aren't able to do.
44:58 Speaker 00 So that's not happening?
45:00 Speaker 01 No, no, no. Our visas have been taken away, so we can't go over there. But there is an assumption that we are kind of sat at home in tears about that.
45:13 Speaker 00 Yes.
45:14 Speaker 01 I should make it clear that we do not enjoy being in that country. We never have.
45:22 Speaker 00 In the US?
45:23 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, we never have. And I think.
45:26 Speaker 00 But there's a lot to enjoy in America.
45:28 Speaker 01 Is there? Tell me.
45:31 Speaker 00 You're putting me on the spot. Are there any Aldi's over there?
45:34 Speaker 01 I think there might be, you know, there might be, or a little.
45:37 Speaker 00 Uh, it's so much culture. If you're a fan of, of, of music, just for starters, like, and the birthplace of not just hip hop, but rock and roll and R and B and it's, it's obviously got vast divisions of wealth, economic disparity, all kinds of horrific things happen there. At the same time, there's all kinds of amazing culture and positive aspects to it.
46:02 Speaker 01 But you're talking more sort of, it sounds like tourist-ish attractions, which are, I mean, like, fine for a holiday, but working there.
46:15 Speaker 01 Is very strenuous, you know, you drive ten hours and and you're kind of still in the same state at some point. That's true. It's very hard to tour in terms of like the the toll that it takes on your mental, the toll that it takes on your body. It's extremely expensive to tour there as well. You don't really make a lot of money, especially a band of our size.
46:42 Speaker 01 And I think the politics of that country have just really made it an extremely ugly place to be. I mean, seeing the difference even in such a short period of time of when we were over there in October last year, twenty twenty four, to being over there again this year in April and May, it it just seems to have gotten even more volatile. When we got the visa taken away, I called Lil Bob and I was like, yo, they've just sent me an email. My visa has been taken away. Have you gotten have you gotten an email yet? He's like, nah. I said, okay, well, expect one. Then there was a slight moment of silence and then a unified sigh of relief. And he just said, well, at least we ain't got to go there anymore.
47:26 Speaker 01 And we both laughed and it was like, it felt like a weight because we love the artist that we were going to do the support tour. Uh, with, right? So we were the, we were not the headline. We were supporting act. We love him. He's wicked, amazing band. Grandson is his name. But you know, like, it really is just like you're counting down the days until you have to go. And then you get there and you're kind of counting down the days until you can get home. Other bands may enjoy it. They may really enjoy being out there. They may want to like kind of crack or break America. We never really had that desire. We kind of did it because it was something that the management pushed for.
48:12 Speaker 01 Nah, man, I'm, yeah, we're right, you know, we're right, really don't enjoy it being there.
48:17 Speaker 00 Um, your tattoos.
48:19 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
48:20 Speaker 00 On your fist.
48:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:22 Speaker 00 On your fingers. What does it say?
48:24 Speaker 01 Lavi Hill.
48:25 Speaker 00 Lavi Hill?
48:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, Lavi Hill.
48:28 Speaker 00 Lavender Hill?
48:28 Speaker 01 Yes, Lavender Hill.
48:30 Speaker 00 S W eighteen?
48:31 Speaker 01 No, the one in Ipswich, not in South West London.
48:33 Speaker 00 Okay.
48:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I've also got it um across my chest.
48:38 Speaker 00 Lavender Hill?
48:38 Speaker 01 A mural of it, yeah, um and I've got an L H here as well, that stands for Lavender Hill.
48:43 Speaker 00 Because you really like Lavender Hill?
48:45 Speaker 01 It was an important place to me, growing up, yeah, it was like kind of the base for a lot of things uh at that time when we were younger, you know, um.
48:54 Speaker 00 What kind of things?
48:55 Speaker 01 Well, I suppose like, you know, you'd have great times there, you'd have bad times there, but like, you know, people would just hang out there, it was kind of what what people call a frontline, I suppose, to the the area or the estate or whatever, you know?
49:09 Speaker 00 There's lyrics that seem to suggest you might have dealt back in the day.
49:13 Speaker 01 There's lyrics to suggest that.
49:15 Speaker 00 That's what I just said.
49:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:18 Speaker 00 You just said the same thing I did.
49:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, there's lyrics to suggest that, yeah, um but you know.
49:24 Speaker 00 Those cases, statute of limitations, surely you're not going to come for that.
49:28 Speaker 01 Do you know what I mean? Like, and and yeah, I've got a daughter, so I've, you know, I'm I'm mindful. Um, but yeah, like i- if if it were to have taken, if those things were to take place, that's where they would take place. Uh, I mean, I saw, I had some of the happiest times in my life there, but I also had some terrible times there. I saw a friend of mine get stabbed up the road from there, I was, you know, it's just, but it it means a lot to me.
49:53 Speaker 00 Where do you feel at home?
49:55 Speaker 01 Um, now we're gonna get really, because I don't feel at home anywhere, if I'm being completely honest.
50:03 Speaker 00 Why not?
50:08 Speaker 01 I'm not too sure.
50:11 Speaker 01 I think it's because I'm always on the move and I've not been able to be comfortable anywhere for a long period of time. There's also a strange relationship that I have, I suppose, with this country as a whole in that, like, I feel like I'm
50:28 Speaker 01 in it but not of it, because it's been so, uh, it's been made so explicitly clear throughout my lifetime. And it continues to be made clear, I think, by some of the rhetoric that's being delivered by some of the politicians, uh, on the right, on the supposed left. It doesn't seem as though there's anybody representing
50:53 Speaker 01 me personally, and I know that there are a lot of people within the, within, within the community that I come from that feel that same way. Um, I think seeing large numbers of pissed up people on a, on a, on a march to unite the kingdom, but seemingly, uh, leaving so many people out of that unity. It's hard to feel at home in a place like that. It's really hard to feel at home in a place like that. I think, I'm, I'm sure your notes will tell you that the first time I was called a nigger, I was seven or eight years old. It was by the kid across the road.
51:37 Speaker 01 The last time I was called a nigger was this January by my neighbour at the time. It's hard to feel at home in a place like that.
51:47 Speaker 01 Certain people will never have to understand that, they'll never have to go through that.
51:53 Speaker 01 But that is something that from seven to now, I've gone through and continue to go through.
52:03 Speaker 01 So that's probably why I don't really feel at home.
52:09 Speaker 01 Anywhere, you know, but I'm searching. The room was quiet, but it's gotten quieter.
52:16 Speaker 00 Went very quiet.
52:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, no, it's good because it's a serious issue.
52:19 Speaker 00 Hmm.
52:20 Speaker 01 You know, but I'm searching, I am searching for that home. I would call myself a pan Africanist. Uh, and so I do believe that maybe I might find my home somewhere else outside of the UK. Um, many right wing voters would be happy to hear that. But, but um, not, not immediately at least, you know, still got work to do.
52:51 Speaker 00 It's not an easy segue. Um, just gonna come back to Aldi, but maybe not.
52:57 Speaker 01 What do you think about that?
52:59 Speaker 00 What you just said.
52:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, what do you think about that?
53:00 Speaker 00 It's very, I feel, it's disappointing. I don't mean that it's disappointing of you, but it's disappointing that. I suppose that um, someone who comes across to me as British. And also for me, somebody who lives in London sees London as the lens for how I experience.
53:21 Speaker 01 Hmm.
53:21 Speaker 00 Because the UK or England or, I feel as though, I'd, I'd like to believe that um. It's that we are very diverse and that we have everyone. And I don't, by most, I'm not saying like there's whites and then there's the diverse people. I mean, we're all part of whatever's going on. And, and what I hear you saying is that you don't feel part of it.
53:44 Speaker 01 It's not that I don't feel part of it, because of course there are instances, there are moments when I feel part of it. And I suppose I feel most part of it when I'm abroad, especially in America, right? Because then I become, I'm British, you know, I'm English.
53:57 Speaker 00 Well, that's, that's interesting, yeah.
53:59 Speaker 01 But when I'm here, I think such a job is done to make me not feel that way. When all of this happened, I mean, UKIP party, which is like, bleh, like who care, like they're barely in existence, right? But it was, you know, they used an, an AI image of me and said, uh, if we're elected, we're gonna deport Bob Villain.
54:21 Speaker 00 For real?
54:21 Speaker 01 How are you gonna deport me? I'm born here, even in.
54:24 Speaker 00 When was that? A few years ago, when UKIP was Farage's outfit?
54:27 Speaker 01 No, no, no, recently, recently. It was, uh, it was on their Facebook. Page.
54:33 Speaker 00 Really?
54:33 Speaker 01 Yes, really. Um, so it's weird. It's a weird existence, man. Because there are certain things that like I am just, um, I mean, I have a hard time being other places because I am British, I'm English. But then when you're here, you're reminded that you are other. And I've been getting reminded of it every single day since Glastonbury. Why is it that any of those uh right wing pundits? Or, I don't know, what would you call the the lot on stage at at at this Unite the Kingdom march?
55:16 Speaker 01 Like whatever they, whatever you would call them. Why is it that it's completely fine for them to critique this country? And say, oh, it's going to hell, it's going to hell, they're letting the, they're letting the boats in, they're letting the boat. But when I say something critical of this country, who are you to have, who are you to say this about our great nation? Why? I was born on the same land that these people were born in.
55:45 Speaker 01 But I say that thing, I criticize this country, and I'm told I have no right to.
55:53 Speaker 01 The only thing that differs is one, maybe our opinion. And of course,
56:03 Speaker 01 my skin color.
56:06 Speaker 00 Um, how are we gonna glide into something?
56:11 Speaker 00 Did Ice-T reach out?
56:13 Speaker 01 Uh, not to my knowledge, no.
56:16 Speaker 00 You know about the reference? He he'd made a song called Cop Killer.
56:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, he did.
56:21 Speaker 00 Though in the early nineties was a big deal because the police didn't like it, surprisingly.
56:27 Speaker 01 It's funny, isn't it, that like certain things at a time seem so extreme? Or at least the response to them is so extreme. So Ice-T is Cop Killer, uh, NWA is for the police. Like, but now you hear them and you're like, and I think that goes back to kind of what Chuck D was saying. About like, you know, as you said, Bob Villen, but any artist that could be applied to, they don't have no tanks, they ain't got no bombs, so.
56:56 Speaker 01 You realise that actually, these individuals, these artists, they're not doing any real damage for the most part.
57:05 Speaker 00 True, although words can hurt and words, you know, inflammatory rhetoric can, you know, especially if it's online, which wasn't in your case, but can absolutely contribute to a climate that's extremely volatile and unsafe.
57:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. But mine is through art. And I think, you know, as like many artists before, they have just documented the times that we're living in, you know? And Paul Robeson says, you have to pick a side. You either fight for freedom or you fight for slavery. And he goes on to say, I've picked my side. I've made my mind up. There was no other option. And I feel the same way. I've picked my side. I have to fight for freedom through my music, through my actions, through my activism, through
57:56 Speaker 01 my politics. That is what my fight is for. And, you know, if it means documenting the struggles that I or other people are going through, and that is met with sharp criticisms, well then so be it. Because I know that my intention is not to create division. My intention is not to put anybody at risk, any individual or any community.
58:29 Speaker 01 My intention is to bring about some sort of positive change. That's my intention. Because our politicians seem so hell-bent on the opposite.
58:47 Speaker 01 I'm doing that with art, man. Like, bro, it's an uphill struggle. It's an uphill struggle. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to talk about the same things that Ice-T or Public Enemy or Rage Against the Machine or Nina Simone.
59:06 Speaker 01 Or Curtis Mayfield sang about.
59:10 Speaker 00 That's good stuff.
59:11 Speaker 01 You know, like, I wouldn't have to do that.
59:15 Speaker 01 But unfortunately, here we are. And I've got to do it. So I'm doing it.
59:33 Speaker 00 Welcome back. Did you find that interesting? I hope so. So a few footnotes to the chat. That's what I'm calling it now. Footnotes are like, you know, like it's a book, like you're reading the podcast. We talked about the reported uptick in antisemitic incidents after the Glastonbury set. And Bobby questioned what data was being used to define what was an antisemitic incident. It was based on an article in The Guardian that was using information provided by the Community Security Trust. They use the IHRA definition of antisemitism, which is also the one adopted by the UK government and other governments. Nevertheless, it's also come under some criticism.
1:00:18 Speaker 00 We will link to an article in the show notes from The New Yorker, all about some of the controversy around the IHRA definition of antisemitism. And also we'll link to the definition itself. It's also worth reflecting that the Community Security Trust report refers to 26 incidents of antisemitism on the relevant day, 16 of which involved anti-Jewish responses to Jewish organisations condemning the chant. I'd also recommend, I mean, we also have a chat, you heard the bit where we're discussing whether the right wing of the Israeli political establishment is prototyping a kind of ethno-nationalism.
1:01:02 Speaker 00 There's a great book on this by Anthony Lowenstein called, I think it's called The Palestine Laboratory, in which he talks about how techniques developed and deployed in the West Bank and in Palestine are then exported and used as instruments of social control around the world.
1:01:25 Speaker 00 If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify do have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com/resources. And I think that's us done for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Man Al Yazari. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse Production for Spotify.
Previous S6 EP2: Michael Palin discusses Monty Python dynamics, famous fans, and ‘Life of Brian’ controversies Next S6 EP4: Malala Yousafzai discusses misrepresentations of Islam, the Taliban's ‘gender apartheid’, and her views on marriage Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated