Pod Insights The Louis Theroux Podcast S4 EP1: Willem Dafoe on collaborating with Lars Von Trier, being buried alive, and his 'distinctive face’ About this episode To kick off the new series, Louis is joined in the studio by acting legend Willem Dafoe. Renowned for an astonishing range of acting roles - from Poor Things to Spiderman - Willem discusses his life and career, including collaborating with provocative director Lars von Trier, what it’s like to be buried alive on camera, and how his face has a mind of its own…
Warnings: Strong language, as well as some adult themes.
Links/Attachments:
Platoon (1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8weLPF4qBQ
Antichrist (2009)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO-TNfPzh_k
Last Temptation of Christ (1988)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW6jxGaIias
Poor Things (2023)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlbR5N6veqw
Spiderman (2002)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t06RUxPbp_c
Beetlejuice Beetlejuice (2024)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-vKW4ZboU&pp=ygUVYmVldGxlanVpY2UgMiB0cmFpbGVy
Nosferatu (2024)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px6S0RxfAHg
The Loveless (1981)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJEmcxXR7H0
Wild At Heart (1990)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQIdBfrF0Ik
Shadow Of The Vampire (2000)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B15iesNMa8
Body Of Evidence (1993)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51xEHzC-rjQ
The Witch (2015)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQXmlf3Sefg&t=31s
The Northman (2022)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mamgc47SOE
Birds Eye Advert - Polar Bear Fish Finger (2010)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsKWjO213EY
Mercedes Advert (2013)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfqNfbCQzpo
Jim Beam Whiskey Advert (2011)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYXFLX2vB-Q
Breaking the Waves (1996)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqZh-9AiCs
At Eternity's Gate (2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T77PDm3e1iE&pp=ygUaYXQgZXRlcm5pdHkncyBnYXRlIHRyYWlsZXI%3D
Pink Flamingos (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwGZ6Mv4qko
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Transcript 12,753 words · 2 speakers
0:00 Speaker 00 1212, are you ready?
0:05 Speaker 00 Hello, Louis Theroux here, and welcome to my podcast called, unbelievably, the Louis Theroux Podcast.
0:20 Speaker 00 To kick off this brand new series, we have none other than acting legend, the one and only Willem Dafoe. Where do you begin? He's made so many films, 150, according to my notes. Growing up in Appleton, Wisconsin, he began his acting career in the experimental theatre scene of New York in the late 70s. I first came across his work when I watched Oliver Stone's film Platoon, probably like a lot of people. That was my first Willem Dafoe experience, and he plays, well, he plays a kind of embodiment of an upstanding and likeable, almost slightly angelic, is that too strong? Soldier, obviously the main protagonist is Charlie Sheen, but it's an incredible scene.
1:04 Speaker 00 I won't give you the lowdown because it's a spoiler, but if you haven't seen Platoon, check it out. Since then, he's collaborated with some of the most acclaimed directors in the world, doing boundary pushing work in controversial projects like Lars von Trier's Antichrist, Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ, and more recently, Yorgos Lanthimos's award-winning Poor Things. He's also starred in huge commercially successful blockbusters, including the Spider-Man franchise, you've heard of that? In which he played the Green Goblin, that was Sam Raimi, love Sam Raimi, Evil Dead, Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, and, most recently, Robert Eggers's adaptation of Nosferatu, which came out earlier this month.
1:49 Speaker 00 We recorded this interview in September 2024 while Willem was in London promoting Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, the follow-up to Beetlejuice, and my cousin's also in that, Justin Theroux, maybe you've heard of him. So I was at the premiere with Justin, I didn't talk to Willem. All of this comes up in the conversation. I'd also recently come back from my summer holidays in Crete, which had got me thinking about Cretan history and legends and the story of the Minotaur, half man, half bull, living in a labyrinth underneath the palace of King Minos. And then I was thinking about this building in Spotify. Anyway, it became an opening question to Willem, bafflingly, because it really didn't go anywhere. But that explains why my mind was stewing on that.
2:32 Speaker 00 There's a tiny bit of bad language, I'm sorry. And, you know, I think you'll enjoy the chat. You'll see that there's a journey, a journey in which I'm navigating the very appropriate level of amour prope that Willem brings into the conversation. That's a French word. If you don't understand it, look it up. And then my eagerness to create a puckish and playful conversational ambiance. And we arrive at, I think, a beautiful place of mutual understanding. All that and much, much more after this.
3:24 Speaker 00 It's weird, I sit in here on my own for five or 10 minutes before the guest comes in. And it's quite an odd, I was thinking about it just now and I was like, I just got back from Crete, I was like, maybe this is how the Minotaur felt when he was being fed his human victims.
3:38 Speaker 01 Yes.
3:39 Speaker 00 Because, you know, this is slightly subterranean. Did you notice?
3:41 Speaker 01 Yes, I noticed. This is a strange place.
3:44 Speaker 00 And it's quite Warren-like, it's labyrinthine.
3:46 Speaker 01 Yes.
3:47 Speaker 00 And then I've been in Crete and I was like, maybe I'm like the Minotaur, which isn't a nice image, because that would imply you were a sacrificial victim. But each year, the Minotaur would be fed 12 men and women of noble birth.
3:58 Speaker 01 Oh, okay. Well, that's not me.
4:00 Speaker 00 Well.
4:00 Speaker 01 So I'm safe.
4:02 Speaker 00 I beg to differ. I'm talking about the aristocracy of talent.
4:07 Speaker 01 Okay. I was just in Greece.
4:10 Speaker 00 Were you?
4:11 Speaker 01 Doing a movie, yeah. And I loved, first I was in Corfu and then I was in Athens, which I really fell in love with.
4:18 Speaker 00 Your ghost lent the most.
4:20 Speaker 01 No, not this time.
4:21 Speaker 00 Really?
4:22 Speaker 01 I mean, I've shot with him two times, but right now, in fact, I was shooting with a Spanish director. Uh, Greek production, international production in Corfu and then Athens, yeah.
4:35 Speaker 00 Well, we've arrived very quickly at the core detail of, of the Willem Dafoe enigma.
4:44 Speaker 01 What is that?
4:44 Speaker 00 Which is, which is, which is productivity, right?
4:48 Speaker 01 Well, that's, yeah, that happens by accident.
4:51 Speaker 00 But you're, you're very, I mean, maybe that is because it's not, nothing that enigmatic about being industrious.
4:57 Speaker 01 Thank you.
4:58 Speaker 00 Thank you for that. Nevertheless, what the striking thing in preparing for this interview, are we all good to go? There they go, they just scurry out.
5:05 Speaker 01 The striking thing was.
5:07 Speaker 00 Is, is how much, how much work you've made and a very high caliber.
5:10 Speaker 01 You know what, to be honest, it surprises me. Between the theatre and the film stuff, um, I'm always struck that that's how I remember my life when I have to remember something. I think about a film or a theatre piece and think, what was I doing at that time to kind of do a check on where I was in my life?
5:31 Speaker 00 Do you, I, I try not to get psychologize, like certainly near the beginning of the chat, but since we're on the subject.
5:37 Speaker 01 Go ahead.
5:38 Speaker 00 Do you have thoughts on what it is that, because what comes across in reading about you is how central to you being productive. Is working, enjoying the work.
5:48 Speaker 01 Yes.
5:49 Speaker 00 You're never happier, correct me if I'm wrong, than when you're just engrossed, immersed in a project.
5:54 Speaker 01 Um, you know, I'm happy when I'm not working too, but um, I think, uh, you know, when you're working, that's a structure that I enjoy. You know, it's a way to apply myself and then certain things are taken care of. I don't have to worry about the little things, you know, I have to worry about what I do and other things are taken care of. Taken care of for me, where in my life I have to take care of everything.
6:19 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:20 Speaker 01 Because I'm not a prince, I keep it pretty simple.
6:23 Speaker 00 I, I know you divide your time between New York and Rome? Or is it a little place outside Rome?
6:29 Speaker 01 Both, both.
6:30 Speaker 00 You have both?
6:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:31 Speaker 00 And the outside, the place outside Rome, I believe is. Somewhat farm-like.
6:37 Speaker 01 Yes, it's a farm, or more like a zoo, maybe, because I have lots of animals.
6:41 Speaker 00 And you like.
6:42 Speaker 01 An enormous vegetable garden and it's a nice piece of land, yeah.
6:46 Speaker 00 But you travel a lot for work. I was sitting next to you. This is going to creep you out.
6:50 Speaker 01 Oh, God. Did I behave myself?
6:53 Speaker 00 I couldn't tell. I couldn't.
6:54 Speaker 01 You're supposed to say yes.
6:56 Speaker 00 I would love to say yes, but I can't.
6:58 Speaker 01 You can lie.
6:59 Speaker 00 Confidently. The, it was the after-party for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice.
7:07 Speaker 01 Oh, just recently.
7:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, last week.
7:09 Speaker 01 Uh huh.
7:10 Speaker 00 Here in London. My cousin is in it.
7:13 Speaker 01 Who?
7:13 Speaker 00 Justin Theroux.
7:15 Speaker 01 Crazy. No, he really is your cousin?
7:17 Speaker 00 Yes.
7:18 Speaker 01 Really?
7:18 Speaker 00 Yeah. That surprises you.
7:21 Speaker 01 It surprises me only because he's not English.
7:24 Speaker 00 Yeah. I'm American.
7:27 Speaker 01 Ah, but you've been here a long time.
7:28 Speaker 00 No, I was born in Singapore. This isn't about me. My father is American.
7:32 Speaker 01 It can be. It can be.
7:34 Speaker 00 I love that.
7:34 Speaker 01 It's your show.
7:34 Speaker 00 Have you seen any of my programs?
7:36 Speaker 01 No, I haven't. I'm sorry, but.
7:41 Speaker 00 Does jiggle jiggle mean anything to you?
7:43 Speaker 01 Jiggle jiggle, it means something to me, but not specifically. I mean, I hear jiggle jiggle and I get some images in my head.
7:50 Speaker 00 Fine, okay. But my cousin, yeah, my dad was born in Medford, Massachusetts, in, outside Boston.
7:56 Speaker 01 Yes.
7:56 Speaker 00 And my dad and mom met in Africa where they were in the, he was in the Peace Corps. She was doing volunteer work, teaching.
8:04 Speaker 01 Very good.
8:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, and so they settled in London. I grew up with a US passport. I now have dual nationality. But I have a lot of American family, including Justin Theroux. I say Theroux. And he's been in a few projects with you. He invited me along. We're getting to the point now to the premiere, the London premiere.
8:25 Speaker 01 See, you do look like him.
8:28 Speaker 00 You know, I'll leave that on the table. I would love to. He's a good-looking. I mean, he's, he's a Hollywood. He's got great hair, like you.
8:37 Speaker 00 At the London premiere of Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Where I'm getting, I know, I feel like I've been talking about this too long. What struck me was, oh, wow, Willem's here at the premiere. And so is Michael Keaton. And so is Winona Ryder. And basically, you were all there. And then I thought, oh, I'm very naive. That must be in the contract to turn up.
8:58 Speaker 01 I don't know that it is. If you do the work and you want to support the film and you want a good relationship with the director and everything, and also a good relationship with the studio, you go to bat for it if necessary.
9:12 Speaker 01 Sometimes they ask you, sometimes they don't. Usually it depends on what kind of role. For example, in this role, I'm in the ensemble, so it's not a natural thing. But I like Tim Burton so much, and I think the movie's going to be popular. So I thought, what the hell, I'll show up and be with everyone. It'll be a nice way to see everyone and I can talk about the movie and I can support the movie. So as far as contractually, I think there's always a way out if you don't want to do press. But I don't mind doing press, I really don't.
9:49 Speaker 01 I feel like if you do the movie, generally you should support it unless something traumatic happens to you. And I think I can safely say, while sometimes you're a little disappointed by things, I've never had that kind of trauma. So generally, if I can, I try to support a movie.
10:11 Speaker 00 I mean, this might be a naive question or maybe a silly question, but how invested are you in the idea of the movie being good? Like, is it a nervous moment when you sit down and watch it? Because you're thinking, oh, I hope it's OK.
10:24 Speaker 01 I usually have some sense of it. And that doesn't mean it'll fly, but I have some sense of, all you can do is be there and do a good job and, you know, try to fold in and give yourself to it. And if you've done that, then you worry less about the result because you've done what you can. I mean, the nature of film is very collaborative. So let's face it, on some level, you can't obsess about its reception or how it's going to be, because I don't really control that absolutely. What I do control is when I'm on the set, you know.
11:03 Speaker 01 Been in a good place to be available and, you know, find out how I can best contribute. I mean, it all sounds very Pollyanna, but, you know, it's really, it's, every time you get together on a movie, it's always different. You look around, you say, what are we doing? Who do we got? What are our strong points? What are our weak points? What do we have to discover? What do we already know? All those things are floating around. But very seldom am I thinking, oh, this'll be a great scene. People will love this. Or, this is gonna be a great movie. I say, oh, I'm excited to do this scene. I'm excited to play this character. I'm excited to work with so and so.
11:47 Speaker 01 But I don't, I don't think about the reception so much. That doesn't mean at all that I don't care, because, in fact, I do very much. Because if you like something, you want it to get out there. And, and if you think something's beautiful, it's a nice comfort to have other people like it as well.
12:08 Speaker 00 You've said that, and this is a paraphrase, that the, the important thing for you or the thing you enjoy most maybe is the process, the actual making?
12:15 Speaker 01 I don't know, but, yeah. I mean, I, I think for my life, the making of the movie always trumps the movie itself.
12:22 Speaker 00 Yeah.
12:23 Speaker 01 And go figure, it's, it can be five months of your life. And there's all kinds of adventures and challenges and, and triumphant moments and failures and problem solving and all that. That can be a very full event for you. And then it can boil down to meh. Or it can boil down to something great. But as I said, it's, you, yes, of course, the two are connected, but there are many hands and many processes between the making and the actual thing, including, you know, promotion and distribution, all that, that really have a hand in the fate of the movie. So.
13:09 Speaker 01 So much in life, you know, when we have certain expectations, that can be very oppressive and can really limit your accessing certain impulses. So I always try to keep my eye on the prize and be present and get behind what I'm doing. So that it's organic and it's committed and something I have some connection to it. So no matter, this sounds paranoid, but no matter how it's sliced or diced, I can stand behind it because it still basically has the DNA of a good intention.
13:52 Speaker 00 You know, I said slightly glibly earlier that the, you know, the central enigma was productive.
13:56 Speaker 01 Glib?
13:57 Speaker 00 Well, glib or not, how dare you.
13:59 Speaker 01 I didn't notice.
14:01 Speaker 00 But, you know, the fact is you've been very productive. You've also worked over a long period of time, many years, creating work of an extremely high standard. You're very beloved. But there's a tension between a kind of maverick, risk-taking approach to your work, but also kind of, you get a lot of repeat customers. You've never been embroiled in any scandal that I could find of any serious sort. You sort of have the dream career in one sense of being in certain respects of Hollywood enough to be in good odor with the people who finance films and to keep getting work, but also to define what your life looks like, to not be consumed by box office and variety and all that stuff. Have I articulated anything?
14:46 Speaker 01 That sounds good. I recognize some of it. I don't recognize other parts of it. When it's your life, you're thankful for the good things and you're, but you're also very sensitive about the bad things and some of those bad things may not be, may not be apparent.
15:03 Speaker 00 Was that an invitation to ask you what the bad things are?
15:07 Speaker 01 I suppose so. You're clever.
15:12 Speaker 00 Consider yourself, like, feel free.
15:14 Speaker 01 No, I'm, listen, listen, you, I mean.
15:19 Speaker 01 I'm very happy. Now's a good period of my life. I find interesting things to do. I'm interested in many things, you know.
15:29 Speaker 00 This is not going towards the bad. I'm gonna cut you. That's not going towards the bad things, and that's fine. He's the A-.
15:35 Speaker 01 Well, who wants to talk about the bad things? The bad things are personal, and I'm not sure there are bad things, but I had to throw it out there. So you get the impression that, you know, I'm not living the life of Riley.
15:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, I know. You don't like talking about your yoga. I loved this because you feel like other people listen and think that what they hear is you should be doing yoga and you don't wanna put them.
15:59 Speaker 01 A little bit.
16:00 Speaker 00 Put that on them.
16:00 Speaker 01 It's like if you're vegetarian or something, or a vegan or something, to go out with people and say, "Oh, I'm vegan." Just order. Just order, you know, because I think people feel stressed, you know, when they're in the presence of someone that they worry about a judgment implied.
16:22 Speaker 00 It feels like virtue signaling, maybe, yeah.
16:24 Speaker 01 And it's also like someone talking about their religion. If it's not your religion and they're talking about it like it's the thing that makes their life beautiful, there's an implied thing of a lack of something in the other person. So, yeah.
16:41 Speaker 00 Can I ask?
16:41 Speaker 01 I mean, I can only say that, and when you say yoga, that's a very broad term. But I mean, I do an asana practice and.
16:50 Speaker 00 What does that mean, asana?
16:52 Speaker 01 That's the, that's the, the different postures during the stanga yoga practice. And for many years, I studied Vedanta.
17:04 Speaker 01 But that's a very broad description.
17:09 Speaker 00 Six days a week?
17:10 Speaker 01 Yeah. Pretty much, pretty much, sometimes.
17:13 Speaker 00 For an hour?
17:14 Speaker 01 Sometimes there's a reason. Now it's an hour, it used to be longer. I, I, you know, recognize that there's certain things that I shouldn't push.
17:23 Speaker 00 Is there a secret to the hair, to your, your lush hair?
17:27 Speaker 01 My lush hair? I talk to my mother, talk to my father, you know.
17:32 Speaker 00 It's genes, is it?
17:33 Speaker 01 I guess so.
17:35 Speaker 00 Probably, you know, my hair.
17:36 Speaker 01 You've got hair.
17:37 Speaker 00 I've got some.
17:38 Speaker 01 What, you've got a little comb over there that fooled us all?
17:41 Speaker 00 I've got, I'm not, I'm not, this isn't a bit for sympathy and I feel bad saying it because it sounds like, I don't, I've got, what's alopecia, so I've got.
17:50 Speaker 01 Do you?
17:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, it came on about two, two years ago. Listen, this isn't about me, I keep saying it, you know.
17:57 Speaker 01 It's always gonna be about you.
17:58 Speaker 00 Your, your kindness, your evident, you know, it's obvious, I mean, I don't know, you can be an, you can do an impression of being nice, which you're successfully managing to do hitherto, like in this room, but what.
18:10 Speaker 01 I like to be nice.
18:11 Speaker 00 What speaks to me more eloquently or more credibly is that you get a lot of repeat business from the directors you work with.
18:17 Speaker 01 Yes.
18:18 Speaker 00 So that suggests they value you not just as a talented collaborator, but a considerate and conscientious one.
18:24 Speaker 01 That sounds good, but I also value them and, and also I like this idea.
18:28 Speaker 00 Oh, stop, you don't have to be nice about them, we're talking about you now.
18:31 Speaker 01 No, no, no, but hang on, hang on, I was gonna get into something else, so let me talk. But I also come from theatre and I love this thing where there can be a company of people and you can do these things and it creates a different, another dimension when you see the same people in all these, you know, filtered through different, for lack of a better word, stories or events. So when there's a director, I love being a part of their language, you know, a part of their work. That thrills me, besides the obvious things about having a shorthand, being comfortable with them, having a trust. And in the best cases, they, they kind of create things for you because they know you,
19:16 Speaker 01 they know what they can, you can do and they give you a good setup. And let's face it, the best thing a director can do is give you a complete world and give you a good setup and let you go and watch you. And if you get off track, you know, slap you around a little bit.
19:35 Speaker 00 The
19:35 Speaker 01 Is that so nice?
19:36 Speaker 00 That sounds good. I mean, so I came to this having first seen you in Platoon, probably like a lot of people, which was a
19:44 Speaker 01 Okay, I'd say that was the first movie that, you know, was seen internationally. I think there were other movies before that, like To Live and Die in L.A. was an important movie.
19:57 Speaker 00 William Friedkin.
19:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I think that was maybe, that didn't get a great release, but it was appreciated after the release because it's a, it's a film that filmmakers like.
20:09 Speaker 00 Which I haven't got to, likewise, I didn't get to the first one you did, which was with Catherine Bigelow.
20:14 Speaker 01 Right, The Loveless.
20:15 Speaker 00 The Loveless, which I'm intrigued to watch as well. Is it fair to say she lifted you from the world of experimental, well, maybe not lifted.
20:23 Speaker 01 Well, she was starting and I, I was starting, so we were two people, you know, trying out this new thing. She came from the world of semiotics and she had made, I believe, short films before that. But that was the beginning for her. So, and I was gonna, I think I was hearing you say, lifted me out of the world of experimental theater? Apparently not, because I went on to work for another, almost thirty years with that company, so there was no leaving. That was what, that was my identity and the movies, you know, became another part.
21:05 Speaker 01 And then the movies a little bit overtook the, that particular company because it was difficult to, since we're doing original work and it was taking a long time to make that work. Every time I'd go away for a movie, a certain part of the thing that we're working on had to either be frozen or my part had to be really minimized. So it was, it was a difficult balancing act. And we did it for a while, but then I think it got a little difficult.
21:37 Speaker 00 We've got time a little later maybe to talk about your upbringing and the fact that you, you know, grew up in, in the Midwest in Wisconsin, but at that time when you got your break in movies, you'd been working in experimental theater. You were in New York, having moved there, right?
21:50 Speaker 01 Right.
21:51 Speaker 00 Doing sort of avant-garde experimental theater?
21:54 Speaker 01 Yes.
21:55 Speaker 00 Which would you say informed part of your process going forward that you
21:59 Speaker 01 Oh, very much, very much. To this day, that formed who I am as a film actor and as a theater actor. This basic thing of, you know, it was really about making things and it was really being part of a group that makes these things and you're responsible for all aspects of the production on some level. And as an actor, you're concentrating on doing things, on committing to actions and folding into the actions and submitting to the story. Not so much interpreting, not so much doing characters, playing people and giving them their day in court and having an experience that was transparent enough that the audience could be with you on that that thing that you're doing.
22:44 Speaker 01 I worked with Richard Forman, a great theater director, and he used to always say, "Stories hide the truth." Everybody's obsessed with stories because it's easy to hop on that bus. But I think the power of film is something other than that. It has something to do with, you know, color and sound and other things. And I think working in the theater made that kind of natural to me, that I'm not just an actor, I'm a performer. That's and I am material. I am material in this, you know, stew that we're making. And I like that.
23:28 Speaker 00 Richard Forman was a new name to me when I was researching this and I realized, you know, he was an important figure for you.
23:36 Speaker 01 Huge.
23:37 Speaker 00 And so I read a tiny bit and it was I had a strange reaction because I didn't fully understand what he was talking about some of the time, you know, just skimming the surface of his ideas. And even that idea of stories hide the truth, I have a little difficulty understanding.
23:55 Speaker 01 Why not? Because people hop on the train and then they go only to what they recognize. And the truth is something that's hidden usually because all our habits, all our politeness, all that niceness that you're talking about often hide certain social conventions hide what's going on. And I kind of get repelled at the idea of, you know, You do a theatre piece and you tell the audience something, you know. It's like you're superior, you have a superior understanding or you've created a situation where you can tell something they haven't thought of. That's not usually the case. We've got to, you know, jumpstart our sense of wonder and our sense of mystery. That's all.
24:38 Speaker 01 And, and if we, if we deal with too much button pushing, then I think people can find an enjoyable experience. They can even find an empathetic experience, but it doesn't change them, it doesn't transform them, it doesn't challenge them in a way that people, I think generally, don't go towards, but I think we need that to stay alive. And theatre and films are a beautiful way to break that wall because you're given this opportunity to rethink reality. I said a mouthful, didn't I?
25:17 Speaker 00 That was good.
25:18 Speaker 01 Was it good? I'm not sure.
25:19 Speaker 00 But keep that bit in.
25:20 Speaker 01 It was heartfelt.
25:21 Speaker 00 You know what? It started to make sense, which is a good sign. Like, I started thinking about David Lynch.
25:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
25:26 Speaker 00 I regard him as an avatar of maybe that kind of filmmaking, which is not linear, not cliché, kind of incomprehensible at times, driven a lot by visuals, then coming into focus with recognizable bits of plot and characterization. I don't make the comparison idly because one of the other things I saw you in back in the day was playing the role of Bobby Peru in Wild at Heart, right? Which was, you know, and I saw that film like 25, 30 years ago, when it came out, whenever it came out.
25:58 Speaker 01 You were gonna say 20 to 25 times, and I thought, this explains everything.
26:03 Speaker 00 No, probably, no, once, I swear, once.
26:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:05 Speaker 00 I don't often see it, but, but, but here's my point is that I could probably mention three things in that film. One was the motif for the recurring visual of the match. Do you remember the match head like igniting?
26:16 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, sure.
26:17 Speaker 00 There's an explicit sex scene where, where Nick Cage and Laura Dern are having sex, that's.
26:22 Speaker 01 And that left an impression on you.
26:23 Speaker 00 It left an impression. And then the scene with you is Bobby Peru, a kind of brown-toothed hitman.
26:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:30 Speaker 00 Who's being kind of predatory and disgusting. And Laura Dern is there, and then she's utterly repelled by him. And then she seems, as I recall, begin rubbing her thighs together.
26:40 Speaker 01 He seduces her.
26:42 Speaker 00 And she starts being attracted by him.
26:44 Speaker 01 I don't know about attracted, but she's going to submit to his desires. If that's attraction, I don't know, but she's decided.
26:52 Speaker 00 He doesn't lay a finger on him.
26:54 Speaker 01 No, but he's proposing. He's proposing for them to get together. And then, of course, I don't worry about spoilers here, because you know the film, or you'll seek it out, or you won't, you know. But, yeah, then he gets to the point where she's going to be with him. And he breaks it off, because it was just a little game for him.
27:18 Speaker 00 He was just fucking with her, that's the scene. Amazing.
27:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, no, it's a beautiful scene. You know, we shot it very simply. The beautiful thing about that movie was, I mean, I really enjoyed working with David, but everything was so clear. The world was so clear. I did no research. It was in my imagination. I had these teeth that really made the character. One of those triggers that you look for, that make you feel different, make you think differently. And then you're, before you know it, you're entertaining impulses that you don't know. And then beautiful writing from Barry Gifford.
27:56 Speaker 00 I was gonna say, my flex here is that I've read the novel that it's based on, which is called Sailor and Lulu by Barry Gifford. Barry Gifford, I mean, to me, he's a huge talent. I don't even know if he's still alive. You don't hear about him that much.
28:09 Speaker 01 Of course, he's alive, very much alive.
28:11 Speaker 00 And a true cineast.
28:12 Speaker 01 Hey, Barry, how you doing?
28:13 Speaker 00 Hi, Barry, if you're listening to this, apologies for killing you off.
28:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's terrible.
28:17 Speaker 00 Welcome back.
28:18 Speaker 01 He's very much alive, and he's still writing and doing lots of things, yeah.
28:21 Speaker 00 It's a terrific, in its way, it's a short novel, largely dialogue-driven, about these two drifter characters kind of going through, you know, quintessential Americana.
28:34 Speaker 00 You've also said that all the characters are in you in different ways. You're giving expression to aspects of yourself. It's creepy to imagine that Bobby Peru is sitting across from me even as I speak.
28:43 Speaker 01 Bobby Peru is also sitting across from me. No, I gotta believe that, you know? We're all capable of any kind of behavior. We are. We are, given the right circumstances.
28:51 Speaker 00 I wish. I need more Bobby Peru in me.
28:53 Speaker 01 Well, cultivate it, baby.
28:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, do you think so?
28:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, you got to work. That's the work.
29:00 Speaker 00 That's interesting.
29:01 Speaker 01 To let that little devil come out.
29:04 Speaker 00 Wow, I'm gonna sit with that for a second.
29:05 Speaker 01 No, I really believe that somehow because I've seen it in my life. I've seen it in my life. People are, can really surprise themselves and are capable of any behavior.
29:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:18 Speaker 01 Look at history.
29:19 Speaker 00 Big time. I mean, I agree.
29:21 Speaker 01 Look at some big shockers there.
29:24 Speaker 00 The Nietzsche quote is, no, actually, I won't do that.
29:29 Speaker 01 Do it, I wanna hear it. We don't have to do anything with it, but I'm always happy to hear a Nietzsche quote.
29:34 Speaker 00 Because madness in individuals is rare, but in periods of time, in nations, in religions, in something, it's the norm. I.e., we're all involved in forms of organized madness and that the behavior that we pathologize is much more a part of us than we care to recognize.
29:48 Speaker 01 Okay.
29:49 Speaker 00 Does that kind of make sense?
29:50 Speaker 01 That's part of our conversation.
29:51 Speaker 00 I don't think that was relevant at all.
30:18 Speaker 00 Because you're an illustrious guest, I went into overcompensation mode and I watched a ton of your films to make sure I was well-prepared.
30:25 Speaker 01 How was that?
30:25 Speaker 00 It was great.
30:26 Speaker 01 Did you see Antichrist?
30:28 Speaker 00 Yes. Why did you go there?
30:30 Speaker 01 It's a good one, because that's a good one and I don't think people know it.
30:34 Speaker 00 That's the one I was gonna land on. So, I watched-
30:37 Speaker 01 So, we're in sync, baby.
30:38 Speaker 00 Florida Project, Poor Things.
30:41 Speaker 01 Good.
30:41 Speaker 00 Shadow of the Vampire. I'm curious to know if there's one if I was gonna say that you're not gonna-
30:47 Speaker 01 As I was saying, good, I thought, what if he gets a stinker?
30:50 Speaker 00 Body of Evidence.
30:53 Speaker 01 You know, every time I come to the UK, they give me a hard time about body of evidence.
30:58 Speaker 00 Do they?
30:59 Speaker 01 But if I'm in a Latin American country, they love it.
31:03 Speaker 00 For people who don't know, it was the movie you made with Madonna.
31:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:08 Speaker 00 It was kind of post-Basic Instinct, and it was in a somewhat similar.
31:12 Speaker 01 It was, and it was, for people that didn't care for it, they thought it was like, you know, a knockoff of that. I don't think that was it. It was kind of an old-fashioned, you know, courtroom drama thing with this sex spin on it. And Madonna was at the height of her, you know, she was doing her sex book then. While we were doing it, she was preparing her sex book. She was at the height of her sexiness. And I think, I don't know, I won't judge a movie, but some people like it, some people don't. What can I say?
31:48 Speaker 00 She dripped hot wax on your nipples?
31:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, but that's no big deal.
31:54 Speaker 00 Was it real?
31:55 Speaker 01 Yes, but that's no big deal. I've done a lot worse. I mean, I'm not talking sex things. I mean, I've done much more difficult things in movies than that.
32:05 Speaker 00 I feel like the reviews were savage. I don't feel like that they were, but I feel as though in some respects you were collateral damage in a pile-on directed at Madonna, that she was, as you said, at the height of her sexiness in every sense. She was catnip for the tabloids.
32:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:20 Speaker 00 And that anything she touched, and if she was seen as trespassing in movies as a sort of creature of.
32:28 Speaker 01 An interloper.
32:29 Speaker 00 Music, an interloper, then, and the movie wasn't perfection, then there would be hell to pay. I guess in a serious mode, though, because you were actually on an amazing trajectory of films, and it felt like it was, you know, it was intended as a big, successful, obviously, Hollywood film.
32:48 Speaker 01 It was actually quite a modest film.
32:50 Speaker 00 And, but it did, I think it did okay, but did you feel in any way, it must have hurt a bit? Because where I was gonna go was-
32:56 Speaker 01 I mean, you get the idea.
32:58 Speaker 00 Yeah.
32:58 Speaker 01 I was there, I did it. Some people like it, some people don't. There's other movies to talk about.
33:04 Speaker 00 Shutter of the- where did I get- I- where was I- I put that in there to be cheeky. Actually, it was where I was gonna go. Shutter of the Vampire, The Lighthouse, I watched last night.
33:11 Speaker 01 I liked that one.
33:12 Speaker 00 Directed by Robert Eggers.
33:13 Speaker 01 Robert Eggers, who is a great director.
33:15 Speaker 00 Who'd made The Witch, which I also loved.
33:18 Speaker 01 And, and I just did Nosferatu with him.
33:21 Speaker 00 Okay, and The Northman. So you've done three now?
33:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
33:25 Speaker 00 And just to finish up, and I watched adverts for Birdseye Fish Fingers, Snickers. A brand of car and a brand of whiskey.
33:33 Speaker 01 Yeah. What is- why don't you just watch the movies?
33:39 Speaker 00 The ads were pretty good, too.
33:40 Speaker 01 Good.
33:42 Speaker 00 I think we were gonna arrive at Antichrist, which for me was- and there are- all of those movies have their merits, but Antichrist is something special because Lars von Trier personifies the trickster, the imp of cinema, like he's, he's both a visionary, a provocateur. I, I have a huge soft spot for him.
34:04 Speaker 01 I do, too. No, I just like the movie because I think it touches- it gets misidentified, I think, because of some of its extremeness, but I think it really speaks to interesting things about women's power, men's fear of women, the struggle between the logical and the magical in life.
34:26 Speaker 01 There's lots of, you know, sexual politics in it, and it's not about misogyny at all. I think he identifies with the women more than the man. I can tell you that because I played the straight logical one in, in the movie. But I think he has a- he's genuinely curious and he's a great filmmaker, so he, you know, the opening of that movie and the epilogue of that movie is great cinema.
34:59 Speaker 00 Did it surprise you that it was divisive? I was a little surprised.
35:02 Speaker 01 No, listen, for cinephiles and for people that I'm interested in and have good dialogues with, they were interested in this movie. It's not set up as a crowd pleaser.
35:13 Speaker 00 A romp?
35:13 Speaker 01 No, it ain't.
35:14 Speaker 00 But you know what? Neither is it a kind of dry...
35:18 Speaker 01 No, it's got lots of fun stuff in it.
35:20 Speaker 00 There's plenty of action.
35:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
35:22 Speaker 00 And actually, there's two things about it that I could imagine put people off. One is there are explicit scenes of genital mutilation.
35:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, that sounds terrible, but in context, it's pretty satisfying.
35:36 Speaker 00 Not the word I had in mind, but definitely it feels like it's part of the artistic choice.
35:41 Speaker 01 Listen, there's this problem where we reduce these things that are very complex to kind of the warts, you know? And then that's what goes out. It's particularly a problem as real film criticism disappears and gives way to, you know, short form and TikTok and influencers and all that. There's not the dialogue that some films of sophistication deserve. And you can say, ah, shut up, you know, be an actor, make a movie, you know? But I think it's a problem because it starves cinema a little bit. The high-minded cinema that actually makes way for the popular cinema.
36:24 Speaker 01 Because I always feel like there is a... Remember Reagan, you know, drip down economics or whatever?
36:31 Speaker 00 For sure, yeah.
36:32 Speaker 01 I think the Lars von Trier's of the world... Look, Lars, the fluid camera, you know, that he used on something like Breaking the Waves, that trickled down and becomes a standard for a lot of, you know, series now.
36:46 Speaker 00 I like that. It's almost like the Overton window of artistry gets pulled a little bit and more things become... It refreshes the vocabulary and the grammar of all filmmaking.
36:56 Speaker 01 Absolutely, absolutely. And the same for the theater and for any art form. But it's usually the people that, you know, the Targons seem a little outre or seem a little perverse or seem like... Those are the people that, you know, we've got to let them go.
37:13 Speaker 00 Are you friends with Lars?
37:16 Speaker 01 I, you know, like main drop, I keep in touch with him.
37:19 Speaker 00 Yeah.
37:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
37:20 Speaker 00 He was going through a depression when he was making it.
37:22 Speaker 01 Yes, very much.
37:23 Speaker 00 And, and so at times.
37:25 Speaker 01 He used to say to me every day, listen, I may not be there tomorrow because I can direct you remote from a trailer I have.
37:33 Speaker 00 With a monitor.
37:34 Speaker 01 Yeah. But he showed up every day, but he needed to tell me that every day, me and Charlotte.
37:41 Speaker 00 Wow.
37:41 Speaker 01 Yeah. It kind of breaks your heart. So he's a guy that struggles, struggles with many things, but he's got a big heart and he, he also is giving a lot to cinema, so.
37:54 Speaker 00 For people, I feel like as a Lars von Trier fan, I might, I'm in danger of leaving some of my audience behind, so I'm going to say, or people in radio land, Lars von Trier is a Danish auteur of the highest caliber, but who specializes in, in having a, what is it? It's almost like a, a nature red and tooth and claw take on, on the human animal and gender relations. And, and I think probably sometimes does things with a provocateurish, I don't think he's trying to represent absolute truth. I think he's, he enjoys parts of it are as a tease. Anyway, he takes on themes, but often in his films, women are being brutalized. I think that's fair to say.
38:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:35 Speaker 00 I know that sounds a bit crass and maybe reductive, but.
38:38 Speaker 01 It's reductive.
38:39 Speaker 00 But it is the case, and I, but I think as a result, some critics, some critics, not just the general audiences have said, this is ugly and unnecessary.
38:48 Speaker 01 Yeah. Well, it's always hard to, you know, when you start sanitizing certain images because you, you don't, you have a judgment about them, sometimes that can have a very negative effect. Sometimes those can be more instructive and more, they can do greater good.
39:05 Speaker 01 Sometimes to put it out there.
39:07 Speaker 00 You took the film to Cannes. Was it well received?
39:10 Speaker 01 Yes, very well.
39:11 Speaker 00 Was it the follow, was it Melancholia that got into hot water, like the film after or the two films?
39:16 Speaker 01 No, well, Melancholia, you know, he had this comment about Hitler that if you look at the context, you know, Lars has always been set up as, as kind of this, as you say, provocateur, you know, this.
39:32 Speaker 00 Puckish, contrarian.
39:34 Speaker 01 Yes, yes.
39:34 Speaker 00 He recently said Russians are people too.
39:36 Speaker 01 And, and everybody at Cannes supports that. And he just crossed the line and then he got cancelled. That's it. That's end of story. But let's, let's go on from Lars. I mean Lars is a perfectly good, as you say, maybe your audience doesn't know him, so let's talk about something else.
39:52 Speaker 00 Okay, let me go.
39:53 Speaker 01 If I may, if I may.
39:54 Speaker 00 Please. Okay, where we're gonna go is here. So we mentioned my cousin, Justin.
39:59 Speaker 01 Yes.
40:02 Speaker 00 He used to work as a ticket taker in a theatre and he told me this the other night, that he was,
40:09 Speaker 00 he was in one of the theatres when, oh, this is a long segue, but when Last Temptation of Christ came out, the Scorsese film. You know, another way of approaching this is because it turned out to be controversial as well, but in a very different way. In a way it was cancelled at a time when it was cool to be cancelled because it was cancelled by the religious elements of the religious or Catholic community.
40:32 Speaker 01 Religious right.
40:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, the religious right.
40:34 Speaker 01 At least in the States.
40:35 Speaker 00 It was a huge deal at the time.
40:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was. And I, I thought it was a shame because I, I think it didn't get the distribution it deserved.
40:43 Speaker 00 Some theatres pulled it.
40:45 Speaker 01 And some, many.
40:46 Speaker 00 Did they?
40:47 Speaker 01 Many, sure.
40:48 Speaker 00 And I mentioned Justin because he apparently would have to check people's bags.
40:51 Speaker 01 Right, right.
40:53 Speaker 00 Because the threat level was so high. And in fact, you'll know this, October 22, 1988, some crazy Catholic group set fire to Saint Michel Cinema in Paris while it was showing the film. The attack injured 13 people, four of whom were severely burned and severely damaged the cinema.
41:15 Speaker 01 Also, there were many incidents like that. Someone drove a semi into a theatre. You know, these kinds of things.
41:23 Speaker 00 Do you want to say anything about that? That must have been upsetting, right?
41:28 Speaker 01 Yes.
41:30 Speaker 01 You know, it's just strange in a world of slasher films and porn and all that that people got so upset about this because it's based on a novel. And, you know, broadly speaking, they're changing the classic story a little bit to consider the character of Jesus in a different way. That's all. It's not this plot to overthrow some religious thought, you know, or change some religious thought. It's a consideration, another way of looking at the human aspect of Jesus as opposed to the divine part.
42:11 Speaker 00 It didn't feel especially irreverent, like Jesus does miracles. And I mean, he just, he's got human traits. Nevertheless, he's depicted as having a yearning for a family life and having sexual interests. And that evidently was considered.
42:27 Speaker 01 Well, remember, remember that a lot of people had protests against the film without seeing it. It was the idea. It was the idea. They don't even like the idea of Hollywood making a movie about Jesus unless it's sanctioned by them.
42:48 Speaker 01 You know, is your faith so weak that it can be threatened by someone else's idea? You know? You're kind of hitting the greatest hits here.
42:59 Speaker 00 I'm trying to, I'm trying to keep it moving. The original cast included Aidan Quinn as Jesus. Did you know that?
43:05 Speaker 01 Of course.
43:06 Speaker 00 Sting.
43:07 Speaker 01 I know Aidan. And they tried to do the movie, but it fell apart for various reasons. And then when they got it together, the second time, I had a very simple call that Mark Scorsese wants to talk to you. And I said, great. And they said, what's it for? This movie Last Temptation? Oh, they're doing, they're getting that together. Yeah? And I said, for what role?
43:37 Speaker 01 They said, "Jesus, you idiot." And I read the script and I thought that was a wacky idea. But then I read the script and I said, "Okay, I get it. Yeah, I want to do this badly." I mean, to work with Martin Scorsese would be enough. But I thought it was a role at that point in my life and that I was, you know, connected to.
44:01 Speaker 00 Did any of that stuff touch you?
44:03 Speaker 01 Of course. You mean that controversy? Only to a degree. I mean, down the road, there was one project in particular that I was cast in and the studio uncast me because they didn't like that I was associated with Last Temptation.
44:24 Speaker 00 Really?
44:25 Speaker 01 Yeah. But I don't want to do a big crocodile tears about that because it could have been much worse. But I didn't feel it so, so much. I think most of the responsibility fell on Martin Scorsese. And I get censored on this, but I think it's really true that somewhere people think actors, you know, are kind of a little horish and they'll do whatever, you know, to get a good role or something. So they don't hold you responsible somehow. They really look to the director and the studio.
45:04 Speaker 00 Your turn.
45:05 Speaker 01 It became a huge antisemitic thing, too, because an association that this religious right talked about, you know, the evil people in Hollywood. So in America, anyway, that was the main, that was the main fight.
45:22 Speaker 00 The spin, they put a construction on it that was shadowy Jewish people who were...
45:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:28 Speaker 00 Really? I hadn't realized that.
45:30 Speaker 01 That was a big part of it. It was, you know, it was a political opportunity for them to rally around an issue.
45:39 Speaker 01 Next.
45:40 Speaker 00 Okay, you know, if there's a sign, I'm just thinking about that. Because, so you were offered the role and then...
45:45 Speaker 01 These are films, I mean, they're good films to talk about and they're interesting films, but that's, you know, let's talk about, let's go, if you don't mind, fast forward.
45:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, we will.
45:57 Speaker 01 Because I'm a little fresher on that.
45:58 Speaker 00 I'm curious whether...
45:59 Speaker 01 And I've spoken about those other things because that was so long ago that I've spoken about them ad nauseam. And I'll be a little fresher if I talk about something that's a little more recent.
46:10 Speaker 00 That was perfect. Have you ever auditioned, this is again, maybe a nice, have you ever auditioned? Do you just have a meeting and then, obviously now, you just sit down and have a chat?
46:18 Speaker 01 I've auditioned, I remember auditioning for the Green Goblin, for example.
46:23 Speaker 00 Now we're getting somewhere.
46:24 Speaker 01 Now we're getting somewhere, now, now, yeah, now you're doing your job.
46:29 Speaker 00 For Sam Raimi.
46:30 Speaker 01 For Sam Raimi.
46:31 Speaker 00 He's a great film.
46:32 Speaker 01 I was doing a movie in Spain and they sent somebody down to tape me. Sent me pages before and in my little hotel room, I did these scenes and they taped me. And, yeah.
46:46 Speaker 00 That was obviously a superhero film.
46:49 Speaker 01 Two thousand, yeah.
46:50 Speaker 00 It was something before they were huge, the juggernaut.
46:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, there were, there were superhero films, obviously, but like, I remember explicitly that some of my friends are like, really, you can do that, you know? They weren't what they are now, you know? And, but I thought it would be fun and I love doing action stuff and I thought, I love doing things sometimes with a big mask, you know, it's a great opportunity to really get away from yourself and do something extreme and fun. So I was totally down with it. And Sam Raimi, you know, that was a very sincere movie in a funny way. He really believed in Spider-Man and he walked a beautiful line, sometimes in the same scene, elements of drama and...
47:40 Speaker 01 And comedy right next to each other in a beautiful way, I thought. And I I haven't seen him in a long time, but when I did see it, I thought, wow, beautiful. You know, he could switch hit really well.
47:50 Speaker 00 It was with the Tobey Maguire incarnation.
47:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:54 Speaker 00 Of Spider-Man and yeah, it really holds up.
47:58 Speaker 01 I bet, I bet, because it was it was solid. And of course, you know, effects have changed and we had really kind of simple effects. You know, I was on wires a lot, which was a lot of fun. We had to do a lot of it practically. So I was flying around on on making these huge giant leaps, you know, on wires and it was cool.
48:23 Speaker 00 And one of the legacies of that, as you may or may not be aware, I don't think you're big on social media, are you?
48:29 Speaker 01 I'm not.
48:30 Speaker 00 You're a meme. I'm sure you've been told that.
48:32 Speaker 01 I I am aware of that, I must admit.
48:35 Speaker 00 You are not just a meme, I mean, you're very memeable. In fact, my kids were especially excited about me interviewing you because of the meme factor.
48:45 Speaker 01 Hey, that's okay.
48:46 Speaker 00 It's actually not, um, it's not nothing in the sense that.
48:50 Speaker 01 It's part of the cultural, yeah, yeah.
48:53 Speaker 00 Gives you a currency. And I think speaks maybe to something about your face.
48:59 Speaker 01 Maybe.
49:00 Speaker 00 And expressiveness.
49:01 Speaker 01 Yes.
49:03 Speaker 00 That's better.
49:04 Speaker 01 Yes.
49:04 Speaker 00 You've said you look like the boy next door if you lived next door to a mausoleum.
49:09 Speaker 01 I probably said that in a weak moment thirty years ago, okay? This is the problem with the internet. It doesn't breathe. Once it's locked in there.
49:20 Speaker 00 But you have something, there's something special about your face.
49:22 Speaker 01 I don't. Yeah, I buy it, yeah.
49:23 Speaker 00 And I was saying, and I think you made another comment where you said.
49:26 Speaker 01 I was on the subway, that one?
49:28 Speaker 00 No.
49:29 Speaker 01 Oh, that's a different story.
49:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, actually, maybe it was. Go on.
49:33 Speaker 01 No, I was taking my kid to the zoo and we were on the subway in New York and it was when New York was still dangerous. And and some guys got on the train and they were took special interest in me and they were looking at me and whispering among each other. And they looked rough, so I thought, oh, man, I'm gonna get robbed or even with my kid, they're gonna mess with me, you know? And then one looked at the other and he says, yeah, it's gotta be him. Nobody looks like that motherfucker.
50:05 Speaker 01 Okay, so that was my proof.
50:07 Speaker 00 That was it.
50:08 Speaker 01 I, listen, I, I see my face because I get made up sometimes and I'm looking in a mirror, but I don't think about my face. But I, I do know, because sometimes when I see a movie, my face has a mind of its own, but I let it go. I don't, I don't censor it, but I certainly don't think about it. And when people, sometimes when people don't understand performing very well, they say, wow, you made some great expressions. I didn't make the expressions. My body made the expression because I was doing a particular thing and then it manifests in, in that expression. But I'm not thinking about that. My, my body gets driven by something else, you know? Something mysterious.
50:52 Speaker 01 Think of all the functions, you know, that the eye does in every second. So much of what we do that we think, that we control, we don't. So as an actor, you just have to direct yourself in the sense of commit to certain actions and kind of be there and have the world drop away and make your own world. Be there, be there. Because then you can let go of, of who you think you are and what you're hanging on to, and it opens the door to being something else. And that's the nature of pretending, which is certainly the base of performing, at least to my mind.
51:33 Speaker 00 You know, I've heard you say similar, it was great, by the way. I heard you say similar things. I think about how acting comes so not naturally to me. Like, I, I like, I love the work that I do, which tends to be interviewing or making documentaries where I'm out on location. And there's a, there's curiosity, you're in the moment, you're absolutely, if, if it's going well, you're, you're lost in what's going on. You're in, you're in this eternal present of reacting and being curious and being completely consumed by what you're doing. It seems completely.
52:05 Speaker 01 That's a divine place to be.
52:07 Speaker 00 It's a lovely thing to do, but, and I've read something similar in, in what you've said about acting, but to, to, when I've acted, when I've tried to, it seems to be the opposite where I'm thinking about the lines, I'm thinking about the people around me, I'm thinking, I go rigid, right? And, and I, I just wonder.
52:21 Speaker 01 That's the struggle. I mean, every actor struggles to find that place where they're free of those things. So learn your lines, damn it.
52:28 Speaker 00 Learn the lines is probably a good start. What, I mean, you've sort of talked a bit about this, but what, what advice do you give? Maybe you've gone as far as you need to, but what advice do you give to actors? Like, you know, at its most basic, what's, is there a key to acting well? Like, how do you?
52:44 Speaker 01 You know, everybody finds their own way. And acting isn't one thing. You know, you always have to change, change your approach and your job is always different. Sometimes you're driving, sometimes you're supporting, sometimes you're reacting, sometimes you're a passive character, sometimes you're an aggressive character, sometimes you're doing that thing that has to be done to push the story forward. Sometimes you're, I don't know, you get the idea. There's a whole variation of what acting can be. So I'm a little loathe to say this is the way, you know? The only advice that I give like young actors is don't do this to get that. Do this to do this.
53:26 Speaker 01 And that may sound really flat, prosaic, but I think it's very important, not only in acting, but in life.
53:35 Speaker 00 Unpack that a tiny bit. You mean, you choose each project on its own merits?
53:38 Speaker 01 I'm not talking about projects. I mean lifting this cup, you know? Don't get ahead of yourself. Lift the cup, lift the cup. And in the lifting of the cup, something will happen to you.
53:49 Speaker 00 I agree with that. I mean, in the sense that people always say, have a five-year plan, have a 10-year plan. I've never had a plan.
53:54 Speaker 01 I think that's, I, I can't do it because life is unpredictable. And if you, if you take unpredictability out of it, you're going to be pretty tightly wound. I mean, some people find success that way. That's why, I mean, I, I'm nobody to give advice. Some people do that and they're perfectly happy. I don't have a judgment about it. There's no one way.
54:14 Speaker 01 Yeah. But this, do this to do this, it's a big thing. That's when beautiful moments happen in the theater. That's when beautiful things happen in, in the performance and film. Not about making choices and making clever things. It's really about the depth of giving over. I mean, when I did this Van Gogh movie, there's so many. I read him exhaustively because he was a prolific letter writer.
54:43 Speaker 00 It was called, it's not one of.
54:44 Speaker 01 At Eternity's Gate.
54:46 Speaker 00 And directed by.
54:47 Speaker 01 Julian Schnabel.
54:48 Speaker 00 Of course.
54:49 Speaker 01 I mean, he was interested in craft. He was interested in a lot of things. But I found a parallel when I learned how to paint. And Julian really taught me that you don't. You don't paint the likeness. You don't paint the tree. You paint what you see. And what you see is color, shadow, line. Everything gets broken down. It's similar with acting a little bit. Concentrate on those things. Don't try to express the tree. Express the fundamentals of where stuff comes from and where things are going to. And if you start to get that sensitivity to the origin and where things are going, you keep it alive, you keep it curious, you keep it floating.
55:32 Speaker 01 You can surprise yourself that way. Does that make sense to you?
55:37 Speaker 00 I think so.
55:38 Speaker 01 I think so.
55:40 Speaker 00 Well, let me ask you this then. In respect to, is acting always a pleasure? Or are there times when you feel like you're not quite feeling it?
55:51 Speaker 01 Oh, sure, sure, absolutely.
55:55 Speaker 00 Any job, I suppose.
55:56 Speaker 01 It's like anything, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you're in the groove, sometimes you ain't. But the possibility of getting back is always there. And that's what's nice, you know? Sometimes you can be working on something and it feels dead. And then if you don't kick yourself and if you stay on it, it'll come back around.
56:15 Speaker 00 You haven't done, correct me if I'm wrong, much TV?
56:18 Speaker 01 I haven't done really any explicitly TV. I've done things that have ended up in streaming.
56:24 Speaker 00 Is that a choice?
56:25 Speaker 01 I don't know. I mean, you know, as long as I have movies to do. An interest in movies to do, I'll do that.
56:34 Speaker 00 You think the work in movies tends to be a little more interesting?
56:38 Speaker 01 For me, yes. It's, you know, you go out with a team, you've got a director, not a showrunner, and you make something. And of course, it's got similar pressures that, commercial pressures and financial pressures that, you know, TV has. I also like to give myself to a director. And if the director is changing all the time, and if it's like a series and the actors have more power than the director because they know the material and they know the run of the day better, and then you've got someone that's, you know, basically looking at algorithms and, and audience response and all that, and he's guiding the ship,
57:19 Speaker 01 it's not the way to go. I think you gotta go off, you know, go off to the new world, you know, have your adventure, and then come back with gold or glass beads. I don't know, you know? It's romantic, it's maybe silly, and as I say, I'm not qualified to really talk about it, but that's where I am.
57:41 Speaker 00 Uh, how are we doing for time? We've got a few more minutes. I feel like, I know you always talk about this probably, but it's nice for people to know a little bit about where you came from, how you came up. Born in 1955, Appleton, Wisconsin, one of the favored sons of a midwestern city alongside Harry Houdini.
57:58 Speaker 01 Yes.
57:59 Speaker 00 Joseph McCarthy.
58:00 Speaker 01 Yes.
58:01 Speaker 00 The senator behind.
58:03 Speaker 01 The Red Scare.
58:04 Speaker 00 The Red Scare and the witch, the witch hunts, the McCarthyite witch, witch hunts, that's the right term, isn't it?
58:10 Speaker 01 Yes.
58:11 Speaker 00 Your father was a surgeon, right?
58:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:13 Speaker 00 Mum was a nurse, they worked together.
58:16 Speaker 01 Yes.
58:16 Speaker 00 You were one of, I think, eight children, one of the youngest, and kind of co-parented by your elder siblings.
58:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:25 Speaker 00 And maybe, I wouldn't say in any sense, well, correct me if I'm wrong, like, it doesn't sound as though it was in any way a neglectful upbringing, but you weren't, you weren't the center of your parents' world either.
58:36 Speaker 01 No. And, and I think they were a little bit of a model that I've always sought out, you know, kind of creative families, and.
58:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
58:45 Speaker 01 And also, I also tend to work with the people that I love. Not always, but my two long-term relationships are both women directors.
58:58 Speaker 01 So I'm repeating something from my past, maybe.
59:02 Speaker 00 Yes, you've created a work family. You've got one son of your own, correct?
59:06 Speaker 01 Yes.
59:06 Speaker 00 But so you haven't repeated the sort of, as it were, organic family.
59:11 Speaker 01 He used to work with us, but then he hit adolescence and I swear to God, he got awkward all of a sudden. He was a beautiful dancer, one of the most beautiful dancers I've ever seen. But then he hit adolescence and he got self-conscious.
59:27 Speaker 00 We all do in adolescence.
59:28 Speaker 01 Yes, but it ran deep and I think it was, you know, it doesn't take a psychologist to think that it had to do with he didn't want to compete with his mother, who was a director, and his father, who was an actor. So he chose another path.
59:44 Speaker 00 He became a lawyer.
59:45 Speaker 01 He became a lawyer and he also grew up in a theater company that, you know, was quite marginalized for a lot of the time I was there and it was a tough life.
59:56 Speaker 00 That was the Worcester Group, you mean?
59:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, Worcester Group.
59:57 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm, and there in New York with a kind of, but imagine bohemian New York.
1:00:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, a little bit, seventies, eighties.
1:00:04 Speaker 00 Kicking in with the Ramones.
1:00:05 Speaker 01 You got it, you got it. It wasn't, I mean, it's, we were working, so it wasn't like we were out every night. We were working. But I mean, the life was rough then and some of the people didn't make it, you know what I'm saying? So he was witness to that, so maybe.
1:00:22 Speaker 00 Do you think he saw like?
1:00:24 Speaker 01 Oh God, he was the child of a basically childless community of artists.
1:00:29 Speaker 00 Downtown punk scene of the early seventies in New York.
1:00:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't know about punk, but yeah, we were doing stuff that, you know, I think was new.
1:00:41 Speaker 00 And so how, I mean, like, like they're kind of very cliche, again, it comes up in all the interviews and profiles is you'd seen the moon landing, because being born in fifty-five, you would have been thirteen or fourteen. And then the idea of being in space made a big impression, so you got into, well, do you want to finish this? Sorry to make you.
1:01:00 Speaker 01 No, when I saw that moon landing, I was always interested in, in challenges, you know, funny little. Little things, solitary challenges. And after I saw the moon landing, I thought, how long could I stay isolated? So.
1:01:15 Speaker 00 This is a true story.
1:01:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, so one weekend, you know, I locked myself in a closet with a little food. And I was allowed to go to the bathroom. But, you know, it's this kind of thing. And then I thought, basically, that's a performance artist impulse.
1:01:33 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:01:34 Speaker 01 Take an idea and test yourself against, maybe that's not a performance artist thing. But, you know, as a kid, it was to take something, construct a situation, apply yourself to this situation, and see who you were through that situation. And I think that's some way to express the pleasure that I get when I say, oh, I like performing because it's such an adventure. I guess that expresses it in a slightly more articulate way than it's not about, you know, having, just having a good time. It's about, it's a, it's a form to deepen your experience of, of life, hopefully.
1:02:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, it feels almost like a Joseph Boyce kind of thing.
1:02:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm down with Joseph.
1:02:19 Speaker 00 Or indeed Marina Abramovic.
1:02:21 Speaker 01 Who is a friend of mine and I've worked with.
1:02:23 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:02:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:26 Speaker 00 I like transgression.
1:02:28 Speaker 01 Did I say that?
1:02:29 Speaker 00 Yes, you did.
1:02:30 Speaker 01 Oh, that was probably said 50 years ago.
1:02:33 Speaker 00 That doesn't apply anymore?
1:02:35 Speaker 01 No, of course it does. But I think when I say I like transgression, I think it's essential to challenge the things as they are. You know, so transgress, I guess, goes against, I don't know the origin of the word exactly. But when I think transgression, I don't think about, you know, shitting on the floor at a performance. That's not what I'm talking about necessarily.
1:02:58 Speaker 00 So that can be a valid choice.
1:03:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is, it is. And I've seen that performance. I haven't done it, but I've seen that performance.
1:03:05 Speaker 00 Who did that one? There was a.
1:03:07 Speaker 01 A Japanese performance artist in a space right near my house.
1:03:13 Speaker 00 Divine famously ate dog poop in a John Waters film.
1:03:16 Speaker 01 Famously, I saw it.
1:03:18 Speaker 00 Did you?
1:03:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:19 Speaker 00 The movie?
1:03:20 Speaker 01 I mean, I saw the movie, I wasn't there.
1:03:24 Speaker 01 That's kind of like locking yourself in a closet.
1:03:29 Speaker 00 Oh, my goodness. Well, so what do we do with the fact that we want, we want transgression, but we also want to be kind, right? Are these values in opposition in any way?
1:03:41 Speaker 01 No, they're all together. They're together because you're, you're trying to be useful and you're trying to figure out, you know, you're trying to figure out what matters. And it's not just for you, because in your giving yourself to a performance, I don't want to get too holy about this, you know, you're trying to do a service. Somebody's got to do it. Let me do it, you know?
1:04:11 Speaker 00 What kind of transgression do we endorse? Do you think like?
1:04:16 Speaker 01 Things that make us think and reconsider things as they are, that's all.
1:04:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:04:20 Speaker 01 That's all.
1:04:21 Speaker 00 Shifting the paradigm and
1:04:22 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:04:23 Speaker 00 And disrupting things a little bit.
1:04:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I always felt like that, you know, because I think it's a good, you know, we got to shake ourselves down, you know, every once in a while.
1:04:34 Speaker 00 I don't want this to sound like a loaded question.
1:04:36 Speaker 01 Uh oh.
1:04:37 Speaker 00 Here we go. You've never
1:04:38 Speaker 01 But it is.
1:04:39 Speaker 00 Well, it shouldn't be really, maybe it is. You've never worked with Woody Allen?
1:04:44 Speaker 01 No.
1:04:44 Speaker 00 Which seems surprising.
1:04:46 Speaker 01 Not really, because I'm not a New York type and he really deals in types a little bit.
1:04:53 Speaker 01 I'm not, you know, like a typical Jewish New Yorker and I'm not a blue blood uptown guy. And he deals a lot in those things.
1:05:04 Speaker 00 Have you been invited?
1:05:05 Speaker 01 Never.
1:05:06 Speaker 00 Interesting.
1:05:07 Speaker 01 Never. But, you know, sometimes you can admire someone or you can admire a filmmaker or a film and you're just not Part of their language, you're not part of their world and you've just got to let it go, you know.
1:05:22 Speaker 00 You would have liked to have been in one?
1:05:24 Speaker 01 I don't know, it's funny, I'm aware of that because so many friends and so many people have been in Woody Allen films and of course, you know, he's had a long career and his work has changed a lot over the career and is, you know, now he's kind of somewhat cancelled because of certain personal things, so it's, you know, it's a whole subject, but before, you know, the last 10 years, yeah, I sometimes I thought, wow, he's never talked to me about anything, but then I sit myself down and say, you know, I'm probably not right for anything that he's doing.
1:06:03 Speaker 00 I love that we got a tiny glimmer of insecurity there.
1:06:07 Speaker 01 Hey, it's.
1:06:09 Speaker 00 Maybe not, or maybe not.
1:06:10 Speaker 01 I'm not Mr. Confidence, I mean, it's, being an actor is always filled with little rejections and, you know, yes, some celebrations, but little rejections always.
1:06:24 Speaker 00 In terms of that word cancellation or being cancelled, do you think we're in, you know, and also having talked a little bit about transgression, do you think there's anything to this idea that the culture is more risk averse? That people are policing the morality in a way that feels inhibiting?
1:06:38 Speaker 01 I think it's not even worth talking about because it's so obvious.
1:06:42 Speaker 00 Really?
1:06:42 Speaker 01 Don't you?
1:06:45 Speaker 01 I mean, I don't know, because I live, I live a life that in some ways is very simple, but also I live in a bubble, so if you don't spend a lot of time on social media, or you don't, you know, watch the news a lot, or you're not on the internet much, there's a lot of things I don't know. And I let it go because there's other things I'm interested in and as you get older, time management becomes so important because there's so many things I want to do and there's so many things that I love to do and certain things I just don't get involved in.
1:07:20 Speaker 00 But do you think, and again, feel free to leave this on the table, but you said that in a way it seems so obvious, it's something I think about a lot, but I don't have a conclusion about. Do you say that because it's touched you in some way?
1:07:30 Speaker 01 What?
1:07:31 Speaker 00 The idea of a culture that feels risk averse, you know, the possibility of.
1:07:35 Speaker 01 Of course, of course.
1:07:37 Speaker 00 In what way?
1:07:37 Speaker 01 Of course, just in people's behaviour.
1:07:41 Speaker 01 And sometimes people are cancelled for things that seem disproportionate to, you know, their merits, you know, that's all.
1:07:53 Speaker 00 You know, having done risky work creatively and, you know, boundary pushing work, but also specifically, we talked about Lars von Trier, a lot of those are sex scenes. I could imagine on set it could be awkward, right? And you want everyone to feel involved and consenting and appropriate.
1:08:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
1:08:09 Speaker 00 Is that a difficult, what does that process look like?
1:08:12 Speaker 01 If this was a tabloid, I should be careful because it would be what they'd run with. But I like doing those scenes because stakes are different and what it's required between the actors is very concrete. And because it's intimate, it kicks it up to another level and you have to really cooperate with each other. Now, having said that, there's a common discussion about sex scenes, you know, they think, oh, they really did it, or, oh, they just went and, you know, the director, you know, the little pig, you know, he or she, you know, just filmed it. It's seldom like that. There's so many technical aspects to it that they aren't fun to do for the pleasure of touching and all that.
1:08:57 Speaker 01 They're fun to do for the collaboration because the stakes are higher. But actually, they're usually quite unsexy and quite technical. I did a film with a Chinese woman and I learned so much because she, she was talking about, you know, you really, it's best to make a score, you know? Kiss here, kiss here, kiss here, kiss here, wherever, you know? But make a score and so there isn't all this, you know, stuff that won't be for, good for camera. Just, you know, feeling doesn't assure that that feeling will be conveyed. You gotta consider the camera and what it looks like and what triggers, if it's like
1:09:41 Speaker 01 an erotic scene or it's supposed to convey that these people are really connected, you just can't jump into it. Anyway, they're interesting to me, I must say.
1:09:55 Speaker 00 I know you already, you've got me pegged as low road and that's fine, but.
1:09:58 Speaker 01 Oh, boy.
1:10:01 Speaker 00 Do you?
1:10:01 Speaker 01 No, no, I, I'm just trying to talk with you.
1:10:04 Speaker 00 Yeah. So Lars von Trier.
1:10:06 Speaker 01 I have, I don't, I don't have, I haven't decided about you. That'll happen in the car after.
1:10:13 Speaker 00 Lars von Trier, I'm trying to keep it a little bit of serious, a little bit of light. Lars von Trier, because again, this is probably something that comes up in the interviews.
1:10:21 Speaker 01 Eh, don't go there.
1:10:22 Speaker 00 Don't, don't touch it?
1:10:23 Speaker 01 No, no. It's boring for me.
1:10:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, fine. You see how, you're gonna see how respectful I am.
1:10:28 Speaker 01 You're respectful.
1:10:29 Speaker 00 Totally.
1:10:30 Speaker 01 I think I'm, the, the meter just went like that a little bit.
1:10:34 Speaker 00 Do you have boundaries, like in terms of, because what I get from you is like experimental, up for it, excited by, like when I watched The Lighthouse, I might be wrong about this, but there's a scene towards the end, huge spoiler alert, you're buried alive and.
1:10:49 Speaker 01 Which is a very memorable and I, that was a challenge and that was hard and that ran deep. And that scene, I shouldn't blow my own horn, but that's pretty incredible.
1:11:03 Speaker 00 I would agree.
1:11:05 Speaker 01 Fuck, it was scary.
1:11:07 Speaker 00 I bet.
1:11:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:08 Speaker 00 And when I was seeing, again, spoiler, second spoiler.
1:11:11 Speaker 01 But I knew they wouldn't let me die and I knew I had to say that beautiful text. So I had a couple of things that I really had to accomplish and they were beautiful challenges. So the director of the situation gave me something that I carry with me even today.
1:11:29 Speaker 00 Really?
1:11:30 Speaker 01 Not, not as a prideful thing, but I learned something about myself and about suffocation and about being buried alive.
1:11:38 Speaker 00 He's shoveling earth on your face and, and there you go. It's one of those things where you watch it and you think, this is acting, but it's also, this is, I am now watching real life.
1:11:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:11:47 Speaker 00 And, and Willem Dafoe, the actor, is being suffocated with earth.
1:11:52 Speaker 01 I hope you're not thinking about that, but maybe that's okay.
1:11:55 Speaker 00 Interviewing you.
1:11:56 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:11:57 Speaker 00 So I suppose it was in my head.
1:11:58 Speaker 01 Okay. Ah, and it's funny that you mention that because that was a very memorable scene for me. It's quite brief, but it's extreme.
1:12:07 Speaker 00 Do you have red lines? Again, that's where I was gonna go. If someone said, "We're gonna do, we require you to fully have sex." That's what, you know, which I think has happened in some movies. Like, that's, that's something, you know, it's obviously a big decision.
1:12:20 Speaker 01 I don't, you know, we don't deal in the general. We deal in the specifics.
1:12:26 Speaker 01 What are we talking about? You know, I, I don't know. I don't have, of course, naturally, I have things that I like to do and that I don't like to do. But everything requires context. You know, when you're talking about decisions like that.
1:12:42 Speaker 00 I love that. Everything's on the table. We need you to cut off one of your arms.
1:12:47 Speaker 01 That's not gonna happen.
1:12:50 Speaker 01 That, I feel comfortable to say. If I've, if I'm not sure about anything else in this interview, that is not gonna happen.
1:13:02 Speaker 01 Fair enough?
1:13:02 Speaker 00 Maybe that, maybe we're done. Like, that was, I was like, I've been, I'm feeling on, on finish on. I had more that I could go at, but I feel like that was a, that was a nice out point.
1:13:24 Speaker 00 Hi, welcome back. Hope you enjoyed that. I did. It's always a privilege when you talk to someone, well, with that level of, that kind of a body of work, and specifically who occupies the sweet spot of artistry and commercial viability. Right? We're all trying to find work that's fulfilling, but that can also pay the bills. Right? And at his level, he's, he's obviously, I think we said, like, he's never done TV because he really doesn't wanna do anything that doesn't feel challenging or interesting. You know, and he's all about, and that's the kind of the downtown art scene, vaguely hippie-ish or bohemian part of him that has never died, which is, which is a great thing. In hindsight, maybe I could have gone deeper into his sense
1:14:09 Speaker 00 that we are being hemmed in by a sort of overly censorious attitude. It was striking that he was keen to, well, it sounded like he was keen to work with Woody Allen.
1:14:22 Speaker 00 Just to say that, to be keen to work with Woody Allen is controversial in this landscape. By the way, those of you keeping Louis Through Podcast bingo cards can tick Woody Allen off because that came up, but obviously, some of the other ones didn't come up, like "Have you ever blacked up and what's your view of it?", and Harvey Weinstein.
1:14:48 Speaker 00 We're thinking of others. If you have others, let me know what should be on the Louis Through Podcast bingo cards. Lars von Trier, his comment about Hitler. Here's a little more on that. In 2011, he spoke before the Cannes premiere of Melancholia and announced, quote, "I'm a Nazi."
1:15:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, you can see why people might have been confused, offended. He also said he, quote, "understands Hitler." Organizers of the festival issued a statement saying that they were, quote, "disturbed by the remarks." Lars von Trier apologized.
1:15:26 Speaker 00 I submit that without comment. He's an artist and a provocateur. That's my comment. Bobby Peru. Maybe my favourite part, well, one of them, of the chat was where I brought up Bobby Peru, and he said that there was Bobby Peru in all of us. I said, "I'm not sure about me." And he said, "Cultivate it." He said, "That's the work." Which I love as a phrase, like theatrical phrase. "I've got to find my Bobby Peru." Something I've been embarked upon ever since recording the chat, and I'm up to 10% Bobby Peru in my day-to-day interactions, which my wife is not thrilled about. Okay, that's it. Credits. The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Amelia Gill.
1:16:11 Speaker 00 The production manager was Francesca Bassett. And the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.
Previous Louis returns with Season 4 of the podcast! Next S4 EP2: Jade Thirlwall discusses being ghosted by Harry Styles, clashing with the Gallaghers and coming up on X-Factor Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated