S8 EP4: Cara Delevingne discusses getting sober, engagement rumours, and being Karl Lagerfeld's muse

Louis is joined in the Spotify studio by model, actress, musician and owner of the world’s best eyebrows, Cara Delevingne. Cara tells Louis about the moment she knew she had to get sober, engagement rumours, and being Karl Lagerfeld's muse. Warnings: Strong language and adult themes. Links/Attachments: Song: I Forgot, Cara Delevingne (2026) ⁠https://open.spotify.com/track/02zcxkBgtRdpHovTLgJRl1⁠ Song: Out of My Head, Cara Delevingne (2026) ⁠https://open.spotify.com/track/5ExQZsB1FkAemKYykuvDUv⁠ Film: Paper Towns (2015) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3622592/ Film: Suicide Squad (2016) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1386697/ Film: London Fields (2018) https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/london_fields If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, visit spotify.com/resources. Credits: Producer: Millie Chu  Researcher: Maan Al-Yasiri Assistant Producer: Maisie Williams Audio Mixer: Tom Guest Video Mixer: Scott Edwards Production Manager: Francesca Bassett  Music: Miguel D’Oliveira  Executive Producer: Arron Fellows     A Mindhouse Studios Production for Spotify  www.mindhouse.co.uk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome back to the Louis Theroux Podcast.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Today, I'm joined in the studio by model, actress and musician Cara Delevingne. After being scouted as a teenager, Cara quickly became one of the defining fashion models of the 2010s, known for her irreverent personality, sparkling friendship group and distinctive eyebrows, which we talk about in the chat. Throughout this period, she walked for virtually every major luxury brand and became the muse of Chanel's iconic designer Karl Lagerfeld. I don't know that much about fashion, can you already tell? At the height of her modeling career, she transitioned into acting, appearing in films including Paper Towns and Suicide Squad. Over the years, Cara has struggled publicly with substance abuse issues.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  She became sober in 2022, the journey to which Cara speaks about in our chat. Since becoming sober, Cara has embarked on a music career, recently releasing singles "I Forgot" and "Out of My Head" from her debut album Not Normal, which will be released this summer, and which also deals with her recovery journey. That's sort of the inspiration for her creativity on the project. I was curious to speak to Cara. Well, as I mentioned, I'm not a huge fashion buff, this surprises you. Nevertheless, it's the case, and I thought, among other things, it would be a chance to explore the world, world of haute couture, catwalks. I've seen Zoolander 1, so I did a bit of research.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  Obviously, I did more research than that. But all the questions around what's sometimes characterized as both creative, avant-garde even, but occasionally overly controlling and maybe even toxic, we get into. We recorded this conversation in June this year at Spotify HQ. The previous evening, I'd attended Cara's gig in London, so we kick off talking about that. I was right at the back, in the VIP area, maybe even the VVIP area. I was among such personages as Paul McCartney and Woody Harrelson.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Even for me, that's elite company. I didn't talk to either of them, in case you were wondering. Millie was with me and she seemed to want me to go over and maybe even corral them as future podcast guests. And I was like, you know what, Millie, the cool thing is you've got to find your moment and play it very Fonzie, like you don't want to be going up panting like a fanboy. Anyway, the moment never came. I never found the in. And at the end, do you remember they left through almost like a little secret hatch at the back, presumably to be bundled into choppers?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  If either of them want to come on the podcast, though?

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you. And Millie said, if either of them want to come on the podcast, the door is open to a conversation. We can't guarantee anything, but your application will be taken seriously. We also ran into some technical issues in the first five minutes or so of the podcast. So apologies for that. There's no video to begin with. It's not my, I'm not taking them hip for that. That's all on Spotify. A quick warning, this conversation contains strong language and references to drugs. All that, as well as much else besides, coming up.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Did you have a late one?

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I find it very hard to sleep after shows.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Wind down?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Wind down.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  I was at the show last night, as you may know. I enjoyed it very much.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Good.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Guess who I was standing next to?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  Were you thinking of guessing and then you?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Paul McCartney, yeah, maybe. Were you standing there for Paul? Yeah.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  I was going to say Charles de Laveen.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  That's what I thought. That was my second choice.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  That's your dad?

• 4:17Speaker 02

  That is my dad.

• 4:19Speaker 00

  What was Paul doing there?

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Because I know Stella and I've worked with Stella for a long time. We're very close.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Stella McCartney, fashion designer?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Fashion designer.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  And I think Paul and Nancy took a bit of a shine to me. Stella wasn't able to make it last night, but they came and it was very sweet.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  Nice. You know, and by the way, I enjoyed the show. It must be pressure that when you think, you knew you were performing in front of Paul McCartney, that's got to feel a bit like pressure, don't you think?

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I tried for the London shows to not know who was coming. But then people text me, so I know. My band didn't know. And they found out afterwards and were gutted. Not gutted, the show was good, but there were issues. Playing under a train track is hard because the vibrations.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Really?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  And there's so many whys and so many synths that whys wiggle out very easily. So a lot of the time, there was nothing in my ears. I couldn't hear anything. But it, no one knows because no one knows what the music sounds like. So I could say anything or sing anything I want and no one would know. It's kind of fun.

• 5:21Speaker 00

  For viewers or listeners, we should make it clear that we were in a venue. I guess it's called Leek Street.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Leek Street, yeah.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  And it was in a railway arch, which gives it a kind of cool, industrial feel. Almost like a cave.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  It's like a cave.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Like the cavern.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  Of Liverpool legend where our friend Paul used to perform.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  And, but I didn't hear any train vibrations, but that made.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Because you wouldn't be able to because it's so loud. But before I go on, you can hear it and it's loud. You can feel it too, almost. So apparently that's what happens.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  You're accomplished now in many fields and it's also striking that

• 6:00Speaker 00

  you were twice named Model of the Year in the British Fashion Awards, 2012, 2014. You were one of the most recognisable figures in fashion, if not the most, with your signature eyebrows, which I'm looking at now.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Do you get tired of being asked about those?

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Less now. It's been a while. It's nice hearing about them. They've missed the, they've missed the attention.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  Nice to have a signature.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm always curious about, I'd love to talk about your music, but I also want to talk about what kind of brought you to everyone's attention in the first place.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  You were signed, how old were you when you were signed? As a model. Seventeen as a model. Can you talk a little bit about how it all, how it all took off? What was the process?

• 6:43Speaker 02

  I had been scouted a few times, mostly out at raves, which was kind of funny. The first time I was scouted, I was 16. But I thought it was so funny that people thought I could be a model because I felt like a feral, chucky doll, to put it politely.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  But it happened a few times and then I was at school. I dropped out of school. I was very depressed. My parents said, you need to have a job if you're going to leave. And I said, okay. My sister was at a modeling agency called Storm.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  That seemed like the best fit, so I went there. And it was not something I had a huge interest in. I didn't have a huge interest in anything at that point, apart from music, really. But I worked hard, I worked really hard, I did everything I needed to do. I made some great friends along the way and then I got a job. And I was like, I've made it, this is everything, like this is what I can do for the rest of my life.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Because the idea of making money modeling felt really crazy because people really were not receptive to me. For a long time, I was small, really small compared to people and.

• 7:49Speaker 00

  How tall are you?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Five, seven and a half. They'd put on my card five, eight or five, nine.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  And for a model, that would be considered small, really? What would be a typical size for a model?

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Five, ten.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  For runway, for sure.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  So in a way, you didn't fit the classical expectation of what you would look like.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  But nevertheless, you were blowing up.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  I don't personally think there was anything that striking about me. I didn't know that my eyebrows were very different to anyone else's, I guess. But at some point, Burberry took notice and they hired me. And I'm grateful to this day for that because I, yeah, it catapulted something.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  Was that a big moment? My notes, it's a, I was trying to find out, what was the moment when you kind of took off? Like, you know, that you actually sort of became, it felt like, oh, this is the coming person. Like, this is the new face that we're excited about.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  I don't know, I actually have no idea.

• 8:45Speaker 00

  Have you blurred it out a bit?

• 8:46Speaker 02

  I think it's when people though started comparing me to Kate Moss because I was small. And we were at the same agency and they, I remember there were articles being like, the new Kate Moss. Which wasn't great because I think I would never, could never live up to that, to her. Obviously, it's a compliment, but I didn't, I didn't believe it at the time. And it was exciting, it was so exciting. Like, I had, I had a job and I was so confused and shocked and seeing a billboard of myself and meeting new people and it was incredible. But it definitely didn't feel real and it definitely felt like it was someone else's dream, though.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Really?

• 9:32Speaker 02

  A little bit.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  Why?

• 9:34Speaker 02

  I didn't want to be known for that, not in a bad way, I just.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  It wasn't my passion. And now I have such an appreciation for fashion. But I, I really didn't care about that stuff at that point creatively. It didn't fulfill me and it didn't let me breathe in a way. It felt like it was quite, I had to like pause a part of myself. Like I was moving and working a lot, but a part of me was stagnant.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  From the world, from the outside world, obviously to the non-experts such as myself, the world of fashion, it looks glamorous.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Looks relative, and this is gonna, and I know it probably isn't, but it looks relatively undemanding.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  You're like, this is gonna sound offensive.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  You're like, they're just walking up and down, sashaying, changing their outfits. And you're obviously, you're in the chair, getting made up, really boring, probably early starts, a lot of like, just boring.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Boring, a lot of sitting around, a lot of waiting. People were like, you're such a good model. And I was like, what does that even mean? It's not a skill. It is, it's, it's, there's a skill to it for sure.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  Which is, go on, talk about the skill.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Well, knowing angles and lighting and cameras and how to move and how to pose, it's a weird skill. It's not really a skill that is needed for anything else. Walking, you can be good and or bad at walking, but it is, it is hard in the way that I also think you're constantly aware of what you look like before the age of social media, even though it was happening during the age and the beginning of social media. You become inherently insecure. You are constantly worried about how you look and what you look like. And that creates just a whole nother level of, I've never met people who are more secure either, not always, but it does breed that. So it's hard mentally.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  And yeah, there's a lot of sitting around and waiting and it's not as glamorous as people think. I think a lot of the time you see the pictures when really it's models sitting on the floor, waiting around, smoking, smoking so much. Yeah, Diet Cokes all round.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  You, you had a partnership, a sort of professional relationship with Karl Lagerfeld. Becoming his muse for designs for Chanel. Carl said of you, have you heard what he said?

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Charlie Chaplin?

• 12:01Speaker 00

  I've got that one as well. She's not as, I won't do the German accent. Carl Lagerfeld is a kind of...

• 12:06Speaker 02

  French German it always sounded like to me.

• 12:08Speaker 00

  German, he looks like he's out of Zoolander.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. He's the full caricature.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  He's got like candy floss like white hair in a ponytail.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:18Speaker 00

  A collar with three buttons on the front of the collar. That's looks like a Harry Hill comedy collar.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Really long.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  And then he's got his jackets and then he's got pendants and necklaces round his jackets.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  And the fingerless gloves.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  Fingerless gloves and dark glasses. It's almost like, how can I look really sinister and intimidating?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  You look at people in fashion like that and you're like, really? That's the guy deciding what looks good?

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  He said, she's not a standout beauty.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:45Speaker 00

  Was it Bacon who said, there is not beauty without some strangeness in the proportions?

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. He was brutally honest, sometimes too much, probably.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  I think, yeah.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  But I agree with him.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  I think he meant it as a compliment.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. But that's what I meant by the Kate Moss thing is that like I always said, if I'd been around in the 90s, I wouldn't have been a supermodel. It's because of the time and Instagram and everything else. Because I don't think I stood a chance, if we're talking about really like superficially beautiful people, I don't think I compared. That's my own opinion, people can have different ones.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  He went on to say, she's the Charlie Chaplin.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  Here we go.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Which I love.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  Of the fashion world. She's a kind of genius, like a character out of a silent movie. I would see her better in a silent movie than a talkie because she over accents the movement.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  I think at that point I was so expressive.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  That's what he's saying.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  I didn't have botox yet either.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  Almost like a Louise Brooks, like, like the, like the, the, what's the word? Damsel in distress or the woman in the silent movie who's having to do it all with her movement, her face and her movement.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  I was, it was always about slapstick comedy and just movement. Yeah.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Girls admire her like they used to Kate Moss. They all want to be as free as her.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Free.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  Were you aware of doing something differently?

• 14:16Speaker 02

  I was, and I wasn't aware of this, but in the 90s and 80s and models and everyone was celebrated for their uniqueness. And I think when I started, fashion became more like an army lineup. Everyone looked the same and was so scared to speak up and like, lack of food, lack of energy. Everyone's just very like, I don't know, doing their job, I guess. And I was also doing my job, but I did it in a different way was I was trying to have fun all the time. And again, that came from a lot of sitting around and waiting. I'm not good at that. You know, I meant to be this like very buttoned up, beautiful person, but underneath I just want to make funny faces and I don't know. I know, I

• 15:01Speaker 02

  knew it was different for people because people really didn't like it. And then people also really liked it. It was confusing. I was, I was Marmite and I liked that.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Well, it's, I mean, look, I'm gonna make this about me, which is

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Please.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  I've found that the things that have given me whatever success I've had, it's been that I can't do the, the things you're supposed to do, like conventional broadcasting stuff. But you make, whatever your perceived, I know it's a cliche, disability is, you make it into your superpower, right?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Isn't that the same thing?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  That's what you're talking about.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Exact same thing.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  Jamila Jamil said of Karl Lagerfeld, "He was a ruthless, fatphobic misogynist."

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. I remember, I, we had a tweet battle about it.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Did you?

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Kind of. It was just after he died. It was like the day after and I'd just landed in Milan.

• 15:56Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  And I was so annoyed at her. I was like, just give it a second. Okay? He was a flawed human. Like, I get it. I understand. He said horrible things about women. But he was a really kind person underneath it. I mean, the fashion industry itself may be inherently misogynistic and fatphobic. But either way, I just think it's it was rude. We're we're fine now, obviously. It was a sore point to read that stuff that she had written the day after he died. I think I yeah, it came from a place of emotion and not rational thought, but uh.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  I love that you had a tweet battle.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  We did.

• 16:39Speaker 00

  That feels like the

• 16:41Speaker 02

  It went back and forth for a while.

• 16:42Speaker 00

  The model equivalent of a duel, you know, with pistols. How how do you is it? Do you take take turns like they tweet, then you tweet, then they tweet?

• 16:50Speaker 02

  No, I don't know. It was like a full rampage because it was we both were writing a lot. She's very sweet and I also think she you know, someone needs to have an opinion on all these things.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  Uh, how do you decide when the tweet battle's over? Or and who's won?

• 17:06Speaker 02

  I don't know. It's already cooked. I don't think people win. That's the point. You just have it out. You say your piece and I deleted that app, so.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  You know who wins? The people running the tech platforms.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Right, driving the content, driving engagement.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, I'm laughing because I I'm want to move on from Karl Lagerfeld and then my eyes dropped on something else.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 17:32Speaker 00

  But it doesn't.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  No, come on.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  Okay, fine. Twenty nineteen, he said, if you don't want your pants pulled about, don't become a model. Join a nunnery. There'll always be a place for you in the convent.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I miss that.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, anyway, I've I've laughed and trivialized it.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  That's a rough one.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  If you don't want your pants pulled about, don't become a model. The kindest interpretation you could make is that he just means you're gonna you're gonna be fussed with.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Oh, that's not how I took it.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  I don't think he means.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Sexually assaulted?

• 18:03Speaker 00

  Maybe. It does sound like he might be.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Well, what's interesting at that point during fashion, the stuff that was going on in terms of sexual assault was so rampant. That's why I was like.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  Really?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're gonna be fussed about with the, again, you have to get so used to having so many hands on you that you have no idea who's is what and what is where, so.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  But did you just say that within the world of fashion, sexual assault was rampant at that time?

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Really bad, yeah.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  In what, go on.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Well, I just, you know, I think, I remember going to like test shoots, which are photographers. Why would you become a photographer of models, a straight man, unless you have some want to sleep with models, right, I guess? It's a good way in there.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  I don't know, maybe they wanna do it because they really like taking pictures of women, sure, but.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  But you can be a straight man and be a professional and not, you know what I mean? Not.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  You can.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Try and sleep with models, I would hope.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  I didn't meet one.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Really?

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Not, not at that point, and this, I'm talking about young photographers, I'm not talking about older, more established people. Yeah, they, they would set, so test shoots are, they send models to do a test shoot, which is just photos for your book, so, but they would offer girls alcohol, way too young, start being sleazy. I think I was pretty hard headed at that point, so I was like, this isn't okay. I just remember being on a shoot with like, two girls who were younger than me, sixteen, fifteen, and their mums were there and they were like, okay, we want you to get naked and get in this bathtub together, and I was like, I'm not doing that. But their mum said yes, and I was like, I'm the only one who's of age and this feels really weird and I'm still, that photo is somewhere, and it's horrible.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  It looks like these are like young, skinny girls in a bathtub naked being like, it's just, that obviously is not sexual assault, but there was a lot. You know, the age of Terry Richardson and that was, yeah, it was everywhere.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Terry Richardson was the, he was like the New York photographer who.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Loved getting his dick out.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  He'd get his dick out on, when he was doing his photo shoots. Um, with it, how, how quickly were you making, you know, massive, you know, because you'd gone from not having any money, left school fifteen, your parents are like, well, you can live here, but we're not gonna give you a lot of money, like, you gotta sort yourself out financially, and then suddenly you're making millions a year.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  No, god, no, that took a while, uh, because high fashion doesn't pay a lot.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  It's the catalogue, it's the, the more commercial.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Fast fashion, I guess you make more money from. High fashion, you're lucky to do it. Unless you do perfume, that pays the most for some reason.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Um, you, behind the scenes, there was substance, substance issues.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Uh, can we say that? Yeah, yeah.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  The whole time?

• 20:55Speaker 02

  I mean, no, not the whole time. I wasn't doing drugs all the time. But my relationship with them was the problem. Yeah, they were my best friend. They were my support. They were the thing that I could control my emotions with, I thought, you know? They kept me going. They soothed me when I was alone. I hated being alone. It was all of those things. My relationship with them was the problem. And it was like that thing of like, I can work so hard and then that's my like celebration. You know, instead of working for so long or doing a film for a period of time and having a week off, the week wouldn't be a holiday and rest. It would be benders caning it,

• 21:38Speaker 02

  which isn't nice for the body or mind, I suppose.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  Which can be fun, right?

• 21:43Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  And then isn't sustainable.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  No.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  Uh, indefinitely. Was part of it, um, getting through, uh, fashion shows or you, could you, could you do those sober?

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Sober, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that wasn't a problem.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  I did them mostly sober. I remember I did, I think it was the biggest time and I was opening a bunch of shows, opening shows, like walking out first. Topshop was one of them. It was a bunch of different shows. Burberry, yeah, in London Fashion Week and I had not slept and I had to go and do like three shows that day. I remember opening Topshop and I was walking like a snake, almost like waving. But people thought it was on purpose, but it's because I couldn't walk properly.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  What would you, what would you, had you been taking?

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Probably ketamine, cocaine, alcohol, I imagine.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  I read that your, alcohol's not really your, was never really your thing as such?

• 22:38Speaker 02

  No, it was always there. I just, it wasn't what I liked. I wouldn't, I wouldn't drink and not do drugs. I would, I, for a long period of time, I only did drugs. I didn't drink at all.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  I don't know why. I just didn't like it. I had the hangovers. Cause I'd never got, I think in my twenties, I didn't, I never came down. I always felt like,

• 22:59Speaker 02

  you know, I was just working and partying and it was fine. But alcohol? Like the feeling of being hungover? Absolutely not. The spinning, any of that, ugh. Couldn't handle that. It also felt too out of control feeling, even though ketamine is, being in a chaos, pretty out of control, I would say.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  Well, I've never taken ketamine. I'm, I don't know if I'm embarrassed to say that.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 23:24Speaker 00

  What's it like? It's a horse tranquilizer.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  It's a tranquilizer in general because you can get given ketamine in a hospital.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  Okay. Not just for horses?

• 23:33Speaker 02

  No, I remember being sold like rhino ketamine, but it wasn't really rhino ketamine. It's just how people sold it. But yeah, and I, when I first started doing it too, I would do like, if anyone who takes ketamine or has taken drugs knows, if you do a tiny bit of ketamine and that's enough, but I would be doing, like really, really long, big lines, cause I just wanted to disappear, not like have a little bit and feel weird. I wanted to just completely lose consciousness, tranquilize myself, I suppose.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  My tolerance was so high with that stuff, to the point where I'd like go to a party and I'd give some, to like, you know, a six foot five man and he'd be floored by doing a tiny amount compared to what I was doing, which is scary.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Was it always the same man or it could be a different man?

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Any man. Like a big guy would be like, that's a lot, you know, I'll have that much. And I was like, no way. This will knock you out. And it was kind of that bravado thing.

• 24:30Speaker 00

  He's like, if you can handle it, I can.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  I can. I was like, you do some of that and you'll be on the floor. And it was true every time. Which I was, at that point, it was a bit like, oh, I'm so hardcore. It was probably very scary for people.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  Did you think this is what we do in our peer group? Like, this is just part, this is the scene? Were you escaping from something? Were you like, I'm having fun and I'm young and this is kind of the worldly gig? Like, live while you're alive.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  All of it.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  All of it.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  All of that.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  I was escaping, but I was also like, I work so hard. I, you know, I get to have fun and I loved.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  I had so much fun. Like, I have incredible memories and I wouldn't change any of it. But there's also an element to escape in that, for sure. There always was, I think.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  You know, you mentioned earlier that when you were 15,

• 25:24Speaker 00

  you basically had some mental health issues. Was it, would you call it a breakdown?

• 25:28Speaker 02

  For sure. Because I lost touch with, not reality, but I was suicidal and hurting myself and wanting to... There was just the loudest voice in my head telling me I needed to disappear and all of it. It was just not nice. And I'd had that. I had that when I was pretty young, when I was a kid. I just remember going into the sea and trying to swim and keep swimming until I drowned. Not that I thought like, oh, but I was like, I'm just gonna swim until I can't swim anymore. You know?

• 26:04Speaker 00

  Your mum had, has talkeden, has talkeden. What language am I speaking?

• 26:09Speaker 02

  I've never heard you make a mistake.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  I went into my native German.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Talken.

• 26:12Speaker 00

  Has talkeden about, your mum spoken about having mental health issues when you were growing up?

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that, and substance abuse on and off in some form.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  But also mental health issues and also physical health issues caused by a multitude of things. She went to Thailand and drank some tea by a monk that was meant to heal her and that caused her bowels to explode. That's when she nearly died, when I was young.

• 26:52Speaker 00

  Really?

• 26:53Speaker 02

  And that was...

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Not her fault, you know, so that was really tough. You know, she was young and she had a colostomy bag and that was really, yeah, that was horrible.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  She's a medical marvel, though. Doctors are like, the fact that she's

• 27:11Speaker 02

  up and walking and talking and alive is a miracle.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  Well, I'm just wondering whether, because you've said in the past, oh, sometimes it felt like you had to be a mother to your mum a little bit. And that experience growing up of, you know, whatever the difficulties that she was going through trickling down, was that part of what fed into what you were going through when you were 15, do you think?

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 00

  How do you explain what was happening with you?

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I spent most of my time concerned with my mother's wellbeing and health. That mine didn't come into it. And I was so tied and enmeshed with her

• 27:57Speaker 02

  ups and downs and highs and lows, that whenever she was low, I was low. And I just, that's when my sleeping problems started because I couldn't sleep ever, because I was so scared if I woke up, she'd be dead or she wouldn't be there or

• 28:11Speaker 02

  you know, I was always calling into her room and checking if she was breathing and stuff because I loved her so much and she had been sick. And a lot of that wasn't her fault and it isn't her fault. And there's a lot of peace I've made with it, especially because of understanding substances and mental health now from my own perspective. I had so much anger, not at her but at the world, that I didn't release and I didn't let move through me, so I just took it out on myself. And she has a similar thing where the pain that she'd caused made her guilty, so she takes it out on herself. There's just a cycle, there's a pattern there, which is just,

• 28:54Speaker 02

  I feel so bad for what I've done, so I'm not going to let myself move on from it, which is, you know, something I work with and work on a lot.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Where do you think your anger was coming from? Was it part of that? Was it resentment at the position you felt you'd been put in? Or something else?

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Angry that I couldn't save her, angry I couldn't fix the problem.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Because I really thought I could. I think that's the root of where it came from.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  And angry that that, the drugs and the mental health and all of it like, took my mother away a little bit, sometimes. But again, that anger is, is something I use. It's something I create with. It's something that,

• 29:46Speaker 02

  like if I'm not angry, it's almost, I find it hard to like perform.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  Are you angry in relationships?

• 29:56Speaker 02

  So I used to not be, and I used to be very, uh, I enabled angry people. I used to just swallow everything and take anger from others. Because I felt like I could handle it and then I could hurt myself later with my own stuff or with it. And now,

• 30:17Speaker 02

  I, I get angry. And I'm trying to learn how to release it in a healthy way. My poor partner has to be the brunt. Has to bear the brunt of that.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  I try and explain to her that I was never like this. Like I've never been in a relationship where I like get angry at someone and scream and fucking, ah! And I don't like, I never call her names. I don't say like, you, whatever. I just get angry because I can't, I feel misunderstood or I can't explain myself properly.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Not in a way that I ever am just trying to hurt her. It's just, it has to come out. Otherwise I want to hurt myself. It's just really rough that.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Really?

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  Hurt yourself physically?

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Just break, punch, scratch, cut, itch, whatever. Maybe I just need to feel like, yeah, feel pain. And I wouldn't sometimes be able to control that when I felt angry and have to, it's usually a wall. I would just find a wall and try and slam my head into it. Whereas now, I freeze because I have to stop myself from moving. But then the voice, the, the hatred for myself becomes really loud. It's really.

• 31:32Speaker 00

  That's a lot.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  It is a lot.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Are you okay talking about this?

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. It's, I, I like, not I like talking about it. I think it's important to talk about it because. I don't feel like I'm alone in it, and if people feel less alone because of it. I'm also unmedicated, which some people might find crazy. Because these are all things that I'm sure medication could probably help. But as time's gone on, I've really learnt my own remedies for it. And I I like the way I am.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  And if it ever gets to a point where obviously it's like dangerous for anyone else or myself, like of course I will take myself off and figure it out.

• 32:13Speaker 00

  But what would be something that might make you wanna bang your head, make you that angry? Can you give an example of something?

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  I have a big abandonment thing. So if I want to be feel closeness with someone, if I actually feel really vulnerable, I won't ask for that. I won't go, hey, I need help or a hug or to be heard. I'll almost poke someone, push them, and almost want them like, I'll test them. Because in my head, I start thinking that the person I love is gonna leave, no matter what I do. So I start pushing them to see if they'll leave.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  And if they leave, then I've proved my point, that everyone will leave me, that no one could actually truly love me because I'm a monster. That's like the root of it. And then, once I manage to make the person pull back, everything is confirmed and I am an unlovable monster. I don't know. That if anyone really knew the real me, that they would leave always.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  Are you jealous? Are you a jealous person? Are you insecure in that way?

• 33:21Speaker 02

  No, no, not at all. Not that. It's more, this is not a reflection of my mother at all. But it's that if she really loved me, she would have been able to be better. And if your own mother can't love you, then that must make me the most unlovable person in the world. And that is not a reflection of her, because I don't believe that she could have changed or she... But I, there's like a deep thing that I can say it out loud and I know it's not true, but there's like a, that's the words I'm putting to the feeling, if that makes sense.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  It's not a jealousy thing, it's not actually a physical thing of someone leaving, it's it's an emotional leaving. I think love should be really free and I I I think if someone like me and my partner, find it really important to talk about like people are attractive and this is that and that, it's really, it's nothing about possessiveness or jealousy.

• 34:20Speaker 00

  Are you Polly?

• 34:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  Could you be?

• 34:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  Why not?

• 34:25Speaker 02

  I've I've always thought in my head, I feel like I could do that. I just don't. This is why in the relationship I'm in now, it feels like the first time I've ever really been in love. Because when you've taken substances out of it and everything else. I feel like I would always sabotage the relationships I was in with substances and substances were always or work was always at the front part. Whereas now my relationship is the most important thing. Like if that's not okay, I'm not okay. And that's probably unhealthy and that might be codependency and everything else. But Polly, no, I can't do it.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  Would you imagine, do you see yourself getting married at some point? Or making a lifelong commitment to someone?

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do, I really do and I I yeah, I want a family really badly.

• 35:14Speaker 00

  Do you?

• 35:16Speaker 02

  I definitely don't want to have kids to fix anything, but I think it will really heal parts of myself that have a tough time having sympathy for for the kid I was. Because I've done a lot of work with that and like

• 35:32Speaker 02

  yeah, imagining a little kid go through the things I saw or went through. I couldn't imagine that.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  What do you mean, what did you see in in?

• 35:43Speaker 02

  Um, I don't want to go into it because I do feel like that is a a boundary thing.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Not fair to your

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 00

  family?

• 35:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think

• 35:50Speaker 00

  You just saw things you feel like you didn't perhaps need to see.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  Right?

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, which which happens. You know?

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't think that's that unusual.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  No, it's not. It's not. But I would love more than anything to have kids, yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Are you engaged?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  No, I have been engaged.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Have you? Is that known?

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't know.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  We've got a news line. Who was it? Who were you engaged to?

• 36:22Speaker 02

  I'm telling you now.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  Oh, I shouldn't have said that. My ears pricked up.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, I don't even know. Was that not known?

• 36:28Speaker 00

  I don't even know. I don't know who you were engaged to.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Doesn't matter now. They're long gone. Sucks for them.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  I've been proposed to. I've also proposed to someone.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Have you?

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  Who did you propose to?

• 36:41Speaker 02

  I'm not telling you.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  Who were you proposed to by?

• 36:43Speaker 02

  I'm not telling you.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  I'm striking out all over the place.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Have to have some mysteries here.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  I love it. Just knocking on the door.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  No, but I also, it was something about actual marriage that I really didn't believe in. But it was engagement that made me feel like they might not leave me. So it was like, oh, if we're engaged, that means there's an extra line they have to go to to leave. But I actually never wanted to get married. That really scared me. Because I'm such a, I really believe in freedom and not in the sense of like doing whatever I want. But I think whenever I feel tied down to something, it makes me go, wait a minute. Wait a minute, that feels funny. And also in the sense that marriage in terms of like the patriarchal society and the heteronormative version of that and like for land and for religion and all of that is not something I'm down with.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  But I do believe in like a spiritual union and a commitment. And I think there is a beauty in that. But it's taken me a minute to really understand that. And also to have the same rights in terms of like being in hospital and kids and adoption and all of it. Yeah, it makes sense.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  You grew up, you've told, you came out, is that, you know, you basically, I think you identify as being lesbian. And for a while you identified as pansexual, I think?

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  And maybe bisexual for a while?

• 38:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I think men are, I think men are attractive. I think if you're a lesbian, you can find men attractive. But I don't, I've never been in love with a man. So I think that classifies me as a lesbian.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  Did it take a while to figure it out?

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Why?

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Because it's hard being gay. I think basic human instinct is to go for an easier path, which is, I hope I'm not. You can't fight against who you are.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  Just to, in my little bubble, it's 2026. And many of those old taboos or prejudices about what it means to be gay have been exploded and dispelled, right? We've openly gay people in almost all walks of life, with a few exceptions. Obviously, men's football is a big one. Women's football, not so much, right?

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Gays everywhere.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  Gays everywhere. Find a straight female footballer.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  There are few.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  That's a joke, obviously.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  But in most other areas, with politics, business, culture.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  I think in religious communities, Christian, in black communities, it's tricky.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  I think in America, it feels like things are going backwards a bit in terms of drag.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  For you, if you could speak to your, yeah, your experience.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  I think there was always an element of people poking fun at it, which was fine, because I did it too, by people close to me. Because also, I guess I didn't feel very seen for it. But I also know that my own personality is I would take the piss of myself, brush it under the rug, and not want to talk about it. But there's a part, deep down, that you always want to feel understood a bit more.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  By who?

• 39:59Speaker 02

  By straight people in your life who love you, who didn't, who don't understand that experience. Sure, but broader than that, family is in like my friends who are family and stuff like that, yeah, like by anyone.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  You felt like there was a default, like, of course, we assume Cara's straight, like, it never crossed our minds that she might not be there for, there was a direction, a momentum, where it would have felt like you were fighting the flow a bit.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  As, as an actor, and like Harvey Weinstein called me up and said, are you gay? And I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, you should never be in a relationship with a woman. I was definitely.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  Because he'd seen you out with a.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Just paparazzi, you've noticed me with women.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  I'm just saying you'll never make it in the industry if people think you're gay. And I really believed him and I really took that to heart.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  Although that's slightly different because that's being out to the public.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Public.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  But behind the scenes figuring out what your identity was. Was what I was also thinking about, like admitting to yourself like I'm gay. Whether that was a process or something that was pretty evident quite early on.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Well, now I look back on it, it was super evident really young. I knew at like 11 years old. I had this one friend that I was like, oh. I think I care about her more than she likes me and I don't know how, but I do. It was obvious now, but then it really wasn't and I'm very proud of it now. And I think when I started talking about it and being open about it. I felt like there was a lot to fight for still at that point. In terms of shows about gay people and, you know, people to look up to for younger kids. I thought it was super important, but maybe I hadn't also accepted it fully in myself. I wanted to be

• 41:58Speaker 02

  that role model that I didn't have, I suppose.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  Okay, you ready? London Fields turned out to be

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Terrible. What?

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Well, it's in a very select group of one of the films. It's got 0% fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  That's quite elite company.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  It's like I want a razzie, basically, is what you're saying. I love it.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Is it what kind of... Obviously, I'm a fan of the book it was based on.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Oh, the book is incredible.

• 42:51Speaker 00

  Martin Amis.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Martin Amis, genius.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  The cast is amazing.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  The cast is great.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  Your good self, Jason Isaacs, Theo James, Billy Bob Thornton. Could you tell it was gonna be quite as bad?

• 43:03Speaker 02

  You never know.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Do you not?

• 43:05Speaker 02

  It seemed like it was gonna be kinda major, to be honest.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Did it?

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Kinda.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  Well, with the cast.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  The book, the script was so good.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  Was it? The New York Times called it, quote, horrendous. A trashy, tortured misfire from beginning to end.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 00

  Andrew Barker of Variety said, sometimes you have to try to adapt a seemingly unadaptable book just to learn how truly unadaptable it is.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's really well said, to be quite honest. I have to be honest. That's really, yeah, well done.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Let's get back on track. We were talking about sexuality.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  Which brings us to, it doesn't really, but that's my segue. Your sobriety journey.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  I mean, and that's gonna lead us up to your, your music and the album. But there was kind of a rock bottom point, wasn't there? Which passed me by, to be honest. Nevertheless.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  Good.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  It was a big moment, apparently, in the culture. You were photographed at an airport looking disheveled. Is the best sense I can make of it?

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Disheveled, yeah. Mentally unwell, for sure. Not lack of sleep. I just had a seizure.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  Really?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  I was not sober, for sure.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  Coming back from Burning Man?

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Burning Man.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  And then, had you been caning it at Burning Man quite hard?

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 00

  And then you just sort of hit the buffers?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was taking a lot of drugs and I, we, there was a certain amount of time we had to leave and I was carrying out, I always overpack for Burning Man. I was just carrying loads of suitcases and I, my body just couldn't take it and I had a seizure. Uh, which again, never seen myself have a seizure, but I've had a bunch.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  In the past, your seizure, had your seizures been just purely medical?

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Drug induced.

• 44:51Speaker 00

  Drug induced?

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Either lack of drugs or.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Too many drugs.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Too many drugs, yeah.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  And it was captured by paparazzi?

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Not the seizure.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  No.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  No, god, no, sorry, yes, you need, you don't, you don't understand. So, no, no one saw that. Got home desperately trying to find more drugs because. I don't know, hadn't slept.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  Home to LA or?

• 45:14Speaker 02

  LA. Before I get on another flight, hadn't slept, maybe found some drugs at the house, did them, went to the airport, got out. Without shoes, hair, I had had so much stuff in my hair, the hair after Burning Man, I hadn't showered probably, so there's just like sand. Hair looks crazy. My, you can just see it in the eyes. I look absolutely wild and feral and. Not well. And I'm just like smoking a cigarette, wearing a Free Britney t-shirt or something.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  She was still in her conservatorship at the time?

• 45:46Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Britney is free now.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  She's free. She is free.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  So, and then how did that lead to you, to the recovery journey? Like, or was that part of the whole, was that a catalytic event?

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, for sure, because people saw it, it was everywhere.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  I lost jobs. That sucked. People were really worried, that sucked. I got so many messages, it was horrible.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  You lost jobs because people said like this, what people think like this, this isn't a good look, you look out of control and weird?

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not a good look. As a model, you're meant to upkeep the brand's.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Standards in some way, like it's in contracts that you sign, you can't like.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Really?

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So, you know, they didn't directly fire me because of it, but they didn't like renew contracts.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  It went a bit quiet.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  It's super quiet, yeah. Everyone went very silent. And I knew I needed to get sober, so I medically.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Was weaned off of. GBL, which probably is the hardest one to come off.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  But I couldn't do it at home. I couldn't deal with the getting sober and realising, the more I was sober, the more I realised how badly I fucked up and that just was too much. So I couldn't stay sober and then I overdosed because I think there was opiates in the cocaine I think I had bought or something.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  So I was Narcaned, was in hospital and that's really when everything happened because when I woke up.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Where were you Narcaned?

• 47:22Speaker 02

  At my house.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  Who Narcaned you?

• 47:24Speaker 02

  The ambulance people.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  For people who don't know, that's the, it's the, it's the kind of quick fix knocks the

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Fentanyl.

• 47:32Speaker 00

  The fentanyl off your neuroreceptors and you come out of it like that. You revived. Almost in the middle of overdosing.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I was being held down by men to a thing and I didn't know what was happening. It was horrible.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  How did they know you were there?

• 47:47Speaker 02

  My girlfriend called the police.

• 47:48Speaker 00

  Really?

• 47:49Speaker 02

  To ambulance, police, whatever.

• 47:51Speaker 00

  Because she's like, oh, we're losing us. This is, wow.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah, horrible for her.

• 47:57Speaker 00

  What's it like coming out of a, you just become aware?

• 48:00Speaker 02

  I wanted to die.

• 48:01Speaker 00

  Really?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Immediately. I was like, I, I can't.

• 48:04Speaker 00

  Because you go straight into withdrawal?

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, just, you know what you've just put people you love through. And you see the pain in their face, the shame. Oh, that's, it makes me wanna cry and it's horrible. It's hard to forgive yourself for that. That, that was one of the most painful things that's happened to me. So doing that to someone else is really rough.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  So then?

• 48:32Speaker 02

  So then, I realised I really needed to go away, made the decision to do that. Had some incredible sober people that I look up to. I have one person say to me, if you stay sober for a year and I check in on you in a year and you've stayed sober, I'll buy you a kilo of cocaine and see if you wanna do it again. And I didn't. Because that's how sure someone is when you've reached that point, that if you stay sober for a year, you'll never wanna go back. And that's true. For me personally. Not everyone is so lucky. That was the last time, for some reason, something changed that time. It wasn't fun anymore, none of it was fun anymore.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  And I was so desperate that I was praying every day for it to end that that cycle. And I wanted to create something good with it. So, yeah, that's the kind of opening, I guess, to music because music was always there and I loved it so much, but I didn't love myself enough to believe that I could do it until I got sober and until I really forgave myself for everything and until I really loved all of it, loved the dark, loved the light, loved everything in between. And that's where an artist emerged, because that's where the point of view came from. That's where I could find the polarities of being human and put them into an album.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  And that's really putting to the test, how much do you really believe in it? How much do you really want to do it? And the answer is badly. And, yeah, this is the beginning of something really special. I want to continue to make music. I think it's probably something that keeps me sane and sober, 100%.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  So are you kind of a multi hyphenate at this point? Or do you have a main thing? Like, are you going to put everything into music? Is it going to be something that you mix with other other stuff?

• 50:35Speaker 02

  For the meantime, I think I've never been a super focused person, but actually I work really well with routine and focus. So it is, it is the priority. It is the thing that I wake up thinking about after my girlfriend, it's music. And I don't know, that's like, I don't know, it's, it's, it's different for some reason.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  I was thinking about genre. You've got two, you have two main tracks out at the moment, correct? Called?

• 51:06Speaker 02

  I Forgot and Out of My Head.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  I Forgot and Out of My Head. It's some... Experimental melodic pop?

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Sure, it's kind of like The Tunnel. It's quite industrial and processed.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  There's industrial noises, but there's plenty of melodies mixed in with challenging kind of blasts of

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Distortion.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  Distortion, yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  And it's kind of unpredictable and it takes you, you don't really know what's gonna happen next.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Co-produced with BJ Burton.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  So is he your creative partner, kind of? Do you write on your own or do you write with someone? Do you write with BJ?

• 51:49Speaker 02

  I write on my own and then I have collaborators that I write with in the studio. BJ, we co-produce together.

• 51:57Speaker 00

  Who's the architect of those experimental sounds?

• 52:02Speaker 02

  BJ and me, I mean, both of us.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Both.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  He's the sound person.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  Because you could take that song and do a million things with it. You could play it on a guitar. You could have a chamber orchestra.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  That's how they all started.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  I think he introduced me to a lot of it. But yeah, he was the architect behind the sounds, how they were arranged.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  And I guess modifying them because I had to pull him back from how much distortion and stuff there was.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  I admired the level of, when you first heard the song, okay, and then the big blast comes in, I was like, okay, I like that.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Good.

• 52:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's good. You had a development deal with Simon Fuller, who used to manage the Spice Girls as well as other people back in the day.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  You eventually turned him down because it said that he wanted to change your name? Is that true?

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was before modeling took off and I wrote a bunch of songs with producers he put me in the rooms with and he was like, these are good, but it's not what we're looking for. We want to cut your hair and dye it green and your name will be Spike or Spark. I can't remember.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  For real? He didn't mind whether it was Spike or Spark?

• 53:16Speaker 02

  No, I just don't know which one it was. It was one of them. They showed me the full presentation. I've no idea. They are different, right? Well, it's either, because it's Spike, because I remember green spiky hair, or Spark, because it looks like I stuck my finger in a spark plug. I have no idea.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  Were you tempted?

• 53:31Speaker 02

  No.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  No, because music is precious. I just knew I was gonna do it one day, just not then, and my own way.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  So you're in, you're mid-tour, you're going off to Paris? You got some dates in America?

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  How's it all feel?

• 53:52Speaker 02

  It's getting better, but there's like-

• 53:53Speaker 00

  What do you mean it's getting better? It's good!

• 53:55Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's good, but there's, I just know I can do more. But maybe not with this tour. There's just like, already while I'm doing this and talking about these songs, they feel old and I wanna write new. I'm wanna, I'm already back in the studio and next album and all of it. Even though I am very excited about this one. It's funny because when people hear things for the first time, artists have been working on them for so long, so it's like-

• 54:17Speaker 00

  Of course, I can, you know, you promote things that you made two years ago-

• 54:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:21Speaker 00

  And you're like, "I can't even remember making that." You get a bit disconnected from it. Is it still ups and downs, like the normal things?

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:30Speaker 00

  You're not in this sort of, uh, sunlit uplands of post-recovery?

• 54:35Speaker 02

  No, because that's also just not possible. No, because also that ends quite quickly. The pink bubble, they call it?

• 54:40Speaker 00

  Do you still do meetings?

• 54:42Speaker 02

  No.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Which is bad probably, but I, I, it's not my thing.

• 54:48Speaker 00

  Are you completely sober?

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Yes. I have control, but once something enters me, I lose control, right? That's the point.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  But I think there's like medicinal hallucinogens which can be okay at some point. I just don't know if that's a thing for me, but we'll see.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Apparently they're good for PTSD. Better than ketamine, I think, guys, everyone.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  The hallucinogens?

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Mm, I don't think so. Apparently. I haven't got there yet. I haven't decided if that's for me.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  We'll see.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Well, listen, congratulations on getting this far and, and everything you've accomplished.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 55:29Speaker 00

  Thank you for coming by.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Thank you. Music is my drug. It's funny, I did, I did the sex and the drugs and now the rock and roll.

• 55:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  You know?

• 55:51Speaker 00

  Vogue, Vogue, Vogue, Vogue, Vogue. That was the, you know the echoey bit in Vogue by Madonna? That's what I was doing there. Sache, Shante, that's RuPaul. Millie's written Twitter battle with Jamila Jamil. Have you ever been in an online fight? I mean, that's mainly what the online arena is for. I've been quite scrupulous about trying to avoid getting in fights. I honestly don't think I have. I've obviously been attacked multiple times. People spoiling for fights. When I sent out my now legendary tweet, mark legendary off your bingo card, about Michael Jackson being a paedophile, there was quite a lot of comeback.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  And I think one of those, I came back to his comeback. And he came back from, he came back to that? That's not the right verb. He responded and then I left it there. As I said in the chat, no one wins. I'm trying not to dilute or destroy my online persona as a nice person. Edinburgh, Brian Cox, the astronomer. Not for me to say who's the third one. London Fields, the film, I didn't watch it for the chat. There's only so many hours in the day. If you've seen it, let me know what you think in the comments. I checked, it does in fact have 0% on the Tom automata.

• 57:16Speaker 00

  It's certified maximally not fresh. Other 0% fresh films, you were wondering? I knew this one anyway. Pudsey the Dog, the movie. I used to live near the director and I'd see him out walking his dog. And it's hard not to project, because I don't think he directed any films after that. And it was hard not to project a kind of sadness onto him, which may have been completely inaccurate. He might have been loving life. But I was like, there he is with his dog walking off all the anguish he feels from having made one of the worst films of all time. But you know, those numbers are bullshit. Millie, if you were on your game, you would have said,

• 58:00Speaker 00

  my Scientology movie gets such and such percent, or the Manosphere film gets such and such percent. I think you looked it up and it wasn't low enough to be funny. Is that what happened?

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was.

• 58:12Speaker 00

  Is it?

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Annoyingly, yeah.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  So there you go. A little insight into the mind of Millie Chu.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  I wouldn't call it sadistic, but just mischievous.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  There was no value to be extracted from a high score for my output, so it goes unremarked upon. That's it for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Man Al Yazari, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, the music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira, the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse Studios production for Spotify.