Pod Insights The Louis Theroux Podcast S8 EP2: Marco Pierre White discusses his rift with Gordon Ramsay, retiring from cooking, and having lunch with Margaret Thatcher About this episode Louis is joined in the Spotify studio by celebrity chef and enfant terrible of the culinary world, Marco Pierre White. Marco tells Louis about his complicated history with Gordon Ramsay, the moment he walked away from his three Michelin stars, and dining out with Margaret and Dennis Thatcher.
Warnings: Very strong language and adult themes.
Links/Attachments:
Instagram Video: McMarco, Marco Pierre White (2026)
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DUNvNxOjVnW/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
Art Film: Andy Warhol Eating a Hamburger, Jørgen Leth (1982)
https://channel.louisiana.dk/video/jorgen-leth-andy-warhol-eating-hamburger
Book: The Devil in the Kitchen, Marco Pierre White & James Steen (2006)
https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-devil-in-the-kitchen/marco-pierre-white/james-steen/9780752881614
Book: White Heat, Marco Pierre White (1990)
https://www.waterstones.com/book/white-heat-25/marco-pierre-white/9781845339906
Book: Humble Pie, Gordon Ramsay (2006)
https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/humble-pie-gordon-ramsay?variant=32544979517518
TV Show: Hell’s Kitchen (2005-present) - ITV
https://www.itv.com/watch/hells-kitchen/1a5021
Credits:
Producer: Millie Chu
Researcher: Mark Maughan
Editor: Tom Fuller
Assistant Producer: Maisie Williams
Production Manager: Francesca Bassett
Music: Miguel D’Oliveira
Executive Producer: Arron Fellows
A Mindhouse Studios Production for Spotify
www.mindhouse.co.uk
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript 0:05 Speaker 00 Hello and welcome back to the Louis Theroux Podcast.
0:17 Speaker 00 My guest today is world renowned chef, restaurateur and one time culinary enfant terrible, Marco Pierre White. In 1995 Marco became the youngest chef ever to be awarded three Michelin stars, michelin, after training under iconic chefs Albert Roux, Pierre Kaufman and Raymond Blanc. All of those names will be coming up, so pay close attention. They're all legendary, there's that word again, mark it off your bingo card, figures from the London restaurant scene of the 80s. A kind of French invasion.
0:54 Speaker 00 The British invasion was a rock thing, I'm getting off piste. With his rock star looks, high profile relationships and famously volatile reputation, Marco also became an unlikely celebrity figure, regularly appearing in the tabloids during the 90s and early 2000s. He is often credited with transforming British fine dining and has been dubbed the first celebrity chef, in a lineage that went on to spawn figures like Jamie Oliver, friend of the pod. Over the course of his career, he trained a generation of other chefs who would go on to become household names, including Gordon Ramsay, maybe you've heard of him, and Heston Blumenthal.
1:37 Speaker 00 In 1999 Marco retired from the kitchen and relinquished his Michelin stars, michelin, transitioning to franchise businessman and brand ambassador and TV personality, featuring on Hell's Kitchen and MasterChef.
1:53 Speaker 00 I wanted to speak to Marco because he's a genius. I've actually never eaten any of his food. I bought one of the cookbooks, it looked complicated, so I didn't make any of them. But I did watch a lot of his old programmes and I got deep into the mind of the mysterious master of mayhem.
2:14 Speaker 00 They all started with M, it doesn't really even describe him.
2:19 Speaker 00 Anyway, it was a thrill because he is at the apex of his craft. Not now, he doesn't really cook that much anymore, but he definitely represents something in the culture. We recorded this conversation in February at Spotify HQ. Marco joined me to promote his 20-year partnership with P&O Cruises, which culminates this August with a dedicated anniversary cruise. So if you enjoyed the chat and find Marco interesting, I definitely did, you might want to go on a P&O cruise. They're not paying me to say that. That was a freebie. A quick warning, this conversation contains the strongest of language. If you know what that means, Millie. Begins with a C, ends with a T.
3:03 Speaker 00 It's not cat. Shall I keep going? I think I said it a couple of times, and then I got comfortable with it, and then we listened to it back, and it's like, why does Louis keep dropping the C-bomb? So we've pulled it right back. All that and much, much more, coming up.
3:38 Speaker 00 You're quite big on the socials at the moment.
3:39 Speaker 01 I don't do it. My son does it.
3:41 Speaker 00 Does he?
3:42 Speaker 01 I wouldn't know how to. I've never sent an email in my life, I've never sent a fax.
3:46 Speaker 00 Seriously?
3:47 Speaker 01 No, I write letters.
3:48 Speaker 00 You're going viral at the moment for eating a McDonald's hamburger. Did you know that?
3:53 Speaker 01 That's not a crime.
3:54 Speaker 00 I didn't say it was.
3:56 Speaker 01 It's just the expression's on your face, the way you said it. It's, well, it's only what Andy Wall did years ago.
4:03 Speaker 00 Yeah.
4:03 Speaker 01 So I thought I'd try one out.
4:05 Speaker 00 What did he do that was similar to that?
4:07 Speaker 01 Exactly the same, without the Heinz.
4:09 Speaker 00 Did he? He ate a hamburger on a video?
4:11 Speaker 01 At McDonald's, yeah.
4:12 Speaker 00 Really? But do you like McDonald's?
4:16 Speaker 01 I think everywhere has a place to them. Look, how could I say? You obviously dine out lots.
4:22 Speaker 00 Do I?
4:23 Speaker 01 I'm sure, I guess you do.
4:24 Speaker 00 Not really.
4:25 Speaker 01 Okay. Once a week.
4:26 Speaker 00 Maybe.
4:27 Speaker 01 Twice.
4:28 Speaker 00 Once.
4:30 Speaker 01 How many times do you become disappointed? You have to answer. The one thing about McDonald's, you know exactly what you're getting. It's as simple as that. And I think what's interesting about McDonald's is you go to a pub now and a burger is eighteen twenty quid. You look at that burger you've had for eighteen twenty quid plus service charge. Then you look at what McDonald's gives you. The way my brain works, I start to look at the construction of a McDonald's.
5:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
5:06 Speaker 01 I look at that. And what I find fascinating about McDonald's is they feed one percent of the world's population every day. And they deliver consistency.
5:17 Speaker 00 If I, if you came to my house, I'd be stressing, and by the way, who knows, it could even happen. I'd be stressing about what am I gonna feed Marco? If you were a civilian and it was lunchtime, I'd be, I'd say, I'm making myself a fish finger sandwich. Would you like one?
5:33 Speaker 01 I'd love one.
5:33 Speaker 00 Would you?
5:34 Speaker 01 Well. It works, doesn't it?
5:37 Speaker 00 It's delicious.
5:39 Speaker 01 Let's.
5:39 Speaker 00 I'd grate a little cheese on it. I'd grill the fish fingers.
5:44 Speaker 01 Cheese.
5:45 Speaker 00 I used to put some boursin on there. I don't know if that works. You don't know about cheese on the fish finger sandwich.
5:51 Speaker 01 Can I say something?
5:52 Speaker 00 Please.
5:52 Speaker 01 The truth is. As long as you enjoy it.
5:56 Speaker 00 Really?
5:56 Speaker 01 That's what's important, isn't it?
5:59 Speaker 00 Well, yes, but then if you didn't enjoy it, I think I'd.
6:02 Speaker 01 But I'd just ask for no boursin.
6:04 Speaker 00 Really?
6:05 Speaker 01 I'd ask for.
6:05 Speaker 00 Or cheddar, I'd normally put some cheddar on it, really.
6:07 Speaker 01 I suppose it's sort of like a fish pie in a bun, really, isn't it? With breadcrumbs.
6:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:11 Speaker 01 But I do like fish fingers. I think they're fun things.
6:13 Speaker 00 I was thinking, I was talking to someone yesterday about this. You may be one of the, probably the most, um, in your field, the most celebrated guest we've ever had. I mean, we've had some illustrious guests, but you were a generational talent.
6:30 Speaker 00 Anthony Bourdain, a friend of yours, once said, "He single-handedly changed Britain's culinary destiny." Have you?
6:40 Speaker 00 You absolutely transformed the landscape that you went into and you came up obviously from Leeds, working class background in a council estate. I'm just curious, for the general public who won't have had the chance to eat at one of your restaurants,
6:56 Speaker 00 what was it that you did and how were you able to do it at that moment in the culture? Could you summarise how it was you transformed the landscape?
7:05 Speaker 01 Well, that was Anthony's opinion.
7:09 Speaker 01 The world that I entered was the old world. It was Iscoffia's world. I saw the tail end of it. And then I saw the beginning of the modern world.
7:21 Speaker 01 And I started my career at the hotels in Georgian Harrogate, which was very blue collar.
7:27 Speaker 00 It sounds quite, I read your book and it sounds, it sounded grand as well though, in its way.
7:32 Speaker 01 It was, it was the most beautiful contradiction. Like my chef, in one hand he held the feather and in the other hand, he held the hammer. It was extraordinary. So.
7:48 Speaker 00 Was this Stephen, what was his name?
7:50 Speaker 01 Stephen Wilkinson.
7:51 Speaker 00 Stephen Wilkinson. He should have set the template for the abusive chef that you were then later on characterised as and then Gordon Ramsay and others. He said he used the word, forgive my language right now, he said he used the word cunt like it was your Christian name.
8:07 Speaker 01 But you know, on the 20th of March 1978, at 6pm, my chef de partie, which means head of a section, he said, "Marco, the first thing you have to learn about service is service is service." And no one ever says that anymore.
8:30 Speaker 00 What does that mean?
8:32 Speaker 01 And that's what I said, "What does that mean, Michael?" And he said, "When the chef shouts at you, when he tells you to run, when he screams, when he pushes you out of the way, you just say, 'Yes, chef.'
8:47 Speaker 01 You don't question it. But remember, Marco, it's service, it's not personal."
8:54 Speaker 01 And that's what I learned from a very young age. Because it was all about the standards, it was all about the food, it was all about serving food hot. The world we live in today, it's like going to a canopy party. Small portions, everyone eating the same. You're told what you're eating, you're told how to eat it, you have a mouthful. And then they ask you, did you enjoy it? That's not an experience I want.
9:22 Speaker 00 Why not? What's wrong with that?
9:25 Speaker 01 Okay, let me ask you a question.
9:26 Speaker 00 You're talking about the modern restaurant culture.
9:28 Speaker 01 What's right with it?
9:30 Speaker 00 Because gastronomy- They come to the table, say, we specialize in small portions. Food is for sharing, it comes as it, you know, it, we, we bring it as it is made. There's no, it's not, we start a, a main course.
9:41 Speaker 01 It's multi, multiple courses.
9:42 Speaker 00 Yeah.
9:43 Speaker 01 It's like a canopy. What chefs have done today is that they've taken canopies and put them on small plates. And they tell you it's a course.
9:52 Speaker 00 When you re- reading, digging into your story, there's this extraordinary trajectory of success. It reminded me in some ways of reading, almost like a Harry Potter or a Luke Skywalker narrative. You have the young, uh, you have the hero's journey from growing up. It's striking that you actually weren't particularly fixated on food as a young man. Grew up in a Leeds, uh, council estate. Your father was a cook, but he didn't really bring his, well, he didn't really invite you to where he worked. He cooked Sunday roast, but he didn't, um, maybe educate you in food all that much. And so it wasn't as though it was a fixation. You were interested in hunting and, and fishing.
10:30 Speaker 01 Nature.
10:31 Speaker 00 And nature, but you didn't, it wasn't like, one day I'm gonna be a chef. You just happened to be looking for work. You arrived at this, uh, restaurant, this hotel in Harrogate, and then you took to it. Can you explain what it was? Was it that moment where you thought, this is the place for me?
10:46 Speaker 01 What was interesting, without realising, my apprenticeship as a cook started years before.
10:53 Speaker 00 But you didn't realise it?
10:54 Speaker 01 I didn't realise. Watching my mother clamp the mincer to the side of the table, mincing the meat for the bolognese. Watching my mother cook the risotto, the spaghetti, as I sat on the side. Bowling chicken, which was almost like a boule de pot. Then mum passed.
11:16 Speaker 01 And then I turned to nature. That's where I felt safe, non-street corners, like everybody else. And what I realised, when I look back on my life, Mother Nature became my surrogate mother.
11:28 Speaker 00 Because your mum died when you were six, didn't she die of a brain hemorrhage after the birth of your younger brother? And that was, you talk about that a lot, that comes up a lot in your.
11:36 Speaker 01 I think what's important is by talking about her, I keep her alive.
11:40 Speaker 00 But you would have been six, so your memories of her would be fleeting at best. I'm majestic.
11:45 Speaker 01 I'm highly visual. So I remember so much.
11:49 Speaker 00 She was Italian.
11:50 Speaker 01 Had my mother not died at six, and died when I was twelve, those memories would have been eroded.
11:57 Speaker 00 Hmm.
11:58 Speaker 01 And I'd have had different memories, I believe. But because my mother died at six, all I had was those memories of that moment. But because I'm highly visual, therefore my retention is almost better than my brother's. Because they're not as visual as I am. And so I turned to nature. I was fascinated by pheasants on the Harwood Estate, I was fascinated by woodcocks, by fish. Look, you know, I used to catch trout with my hands, catching crayfish, but the native ones. So this love affair with nature is where it all began. And so therefore, in later life, when I went to the Hotel St George, and I saw my first
12:40 Speaker 01 salmon come through like a silver bar, covered in sea lice, five pounds a pound it was, I saw the big Cornish cock crabs, I started to fall in love with produce.
12:51 Speaker 00 You said that, um, we mentioned your mum died, she was Italian, your father was English, he was a chef, we said that. Am I right in thinking he was a drinker? Was he an alcoholic?
13:03 Speaker 01 I don't know whether he was an alcoholic, but he was a product of that world.
13:08 Speaker 00 He was a disciplinarian, you called him a one-dimensional man at one time. I know you, you were estranged for thirteen years after you left the north, you were down in London. Reading between the lines, you're actually quite generous about him, not quite, you're actually very generous about him in your book, you, you, you extenuate his. Shortcomings, he was a single father, right, raising three kids, your younger brother, ended up being put up for adoption, well, not quite.
13:33 Speaker 01 Well, he was adopted by my.
13:34 Speaker 00 Adopted by your aunt.
13:35 Speaker 01 By my aunt and my uncle.
13:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
13:36 Speaker 01 In Italy, so he.
13:37 Speaker 00 Because your dad couldn't handle it, like, I've got three kids plus a newborn, I can't deal with it. It sounded like quite a brutal upbringing, that in certain respects, you internalized strategies for survival that served you in good stead when it came to the bullying atmosphere of the kitchen.
13:51 Speaker 01 Well, what it did was, if I think back and cast my mind through the filing cabinets of my mind,
14:01 Speaker 01 before I even walked into a kitchen, I'd already learnt how to absorb pressure.
14:06 Speaker 00 Abuse.
14:08 Speaker 01 Pressure, you can call it abuse.
14:10 Speaker 00 Why don't you want to call it abuse?
14:12 Speaker 01 Because it's a negative.
14:13 Speaker 00 Right.
14:14 Speaker 01 I like to look at things as a positive, and I look at my father for his strengths, not his weaknesses.
14:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:21 Speaker 01 Many fathers would have walked away.
14:24 Speaker 00 From, from the three boys?
14:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:27 Speaker 00 So you imagine putting a child, a baby up, like, saying to the, you know, the, that's, it must have been strange for you saying, there's a baby, oh, now it's gone, it was two, three weeks old, was he?
14:37 Speaker 01 He, he was, he was.
14:38 Speaker 00 Became Italian, was sent off to Italy.
14:40 Speaker 01 He was thirteen days old when my mother died.
14:41 Speaker 00 Craig, and then he became Simone, is that right?
14:43 Speaker 01 Well, Simon's his middle name.
14:45 Speaker 00 Okay.
14:45 Speaker 01 So they don't have a word for Craig in Italian, so he became Simone.
14:49 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:51 Speaker 01 It's, I look back at my life and there's many defining moments, and it's those defining moments that make us who we are, I believe. And had my, had my mother not died, I may not have turned to nature. But when I was very fortunate, yes, I was brought from a council estate, but the top of my road was the old Mortalton Golf Course. I used to walk across that, another bit of the Mottown Golf Course, and I was on the Harwood Estate, designed by Capability Brown, rather magnificent, rather beautiful, so from this hell, I was living.
15:31 Speaker 01 But then I have this wonderful world where I could escape.
15:35 Speaker 00 What was the hell?
15:37 Speaker 01 Being at home with my father, having no mother.
15:40 Speaker 00 You went to, your first, after the, is it the George, was it called the George?
15:45 Speaker 01 I was with Malcolm and Colin at the Box.
15:46 Speaker 00 You were with Malcolm and Colin, a gay couple at the Box Tree. Extraordinary Michelin starred restaurant in the north of England.
15:53 Speaker 01 Two stars.
15:54 Speaker 00 Two stars. Actually, you've mentioned them as being the two most gifted restaurateurs you've ever met.
16:01 Speaker 01 Well, without question, they were. Firstly, they created an environment
16:10 Speaker 01 which was so magical
16:14 Speaker 01 that I don't know another restaurant I've ever been to which had the magic of the Box Tree. To have gone there as a boy of seventeen years old and to have been exposed to that world. And the methods that Box Tree used weren't conventional. But what they created was deliciousness. It was extraordinary.
16:44 Speaker 01 But their generosity again was extraordinary.
16:47 Speaker 00 You left them, you, again, looking at your story, it's as though there's a series of, I mean, this is crass, apologies, but you know, they talk nowadays about video games and boss battles and like there's a series of boss battles and then you go to the next level, you level up. It's almost like you absorb everything you need to from a certain kitchen and a restaurant. And then you're ready to go on to the next level, right? So in this case, it was having finished after a year or two at the Box Tree in Ilkley, you decide to, I think you decide you're going to go down to London, is that right?
17:20 Speaker 01 Well, that's where everything happened, was at the Box Tree.
17:25 Speaker 01 And they used to always say, you never know what the bosses think of you until the day you give your notice.
17:35 Speaker 01 And I said to Michael Lawson, what does that mean?
17:41 Speaker 01 And Michael Lawson, who was the head chef, he'd take me out on a Monday because he was a lonely man, he was a gentleman, the most beautiful soul.
17:51 Speaker 01 He said, if they don't care for you, they just accept your notice.
17:59 Speaker 01 If they like you and respect you and feel that you have a value, they invite you to the Chinese room and they'll offer you money.
18:08 Speaker 01 So I gave my notice.
18:11 Speaker 01 And an hour goes by and I thought, okay, they've just accepted. An hour and a half, maybe two hours, I'm called to the Chinese room.
18:21 Speaker 01 And I'm offered more money. And I said, no.
18:26 Speaker 01 And I was court martialed on the spot. I had to leave from immediate effect. That's how personal the boys were. That's how much they'd invested in me.
18:38 Speaker 00 What's striking as well is that you talk about you found a new family and you'd left by this time, you'd left home, your father either had or was about to remarry. You were estranged from him, perhaps from your brothers too, I don't know. But this was your new family and you completely threw yourself in to your work life. You became totally dedicated. Girlfriends came and went, not so interested. Um, hobbies, pastimes don't really figure much. You were completely married to the kitchen.
19:06 Speaker 01 I was addicted to, you know, like people have addictions.
19:11 Speaker 01 Mother nature, food became my addiction. It became the most important thing. I was so focused on just food. What they said to me
19:23 Speaker 01 was, Marco, we knew you would go all the way.
19:29 Speaker 01 You were very different to every other boy that had walked through the kitchens of the box tree.
19:34 Speaker 01 You had almost magic fell out of your fingers. That's how they looked at me, the way I put things on a plate, the way I could coordinate. But remember, I was just replicating what had been shown by Michael Lawson.
19:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, but sometimes replicating accurately, exquisitely is a gift, right?
19:57 Speaker 01 One of the great cooks I worked for, I was very privileged in life to have worked with some extraordinary individuals. Mag Boucher held the highest position within the Roux company. He was the chef d'oeuvre, turned. But if Albert was away in France, he'd go to assist at Gavroche. If Chef Albon was away, he'd go and assist at Gavroche. If Kaufman was away, he'd go and assist Kaufman. Extraordinary man. He gave me the hardest time ever. The hardest time ever.
20:32 Speaker 01 He would stack the work so high, so, so high.
20:38 Speaker 01 And I had to plough my way through that work and then do it and be ready for service.
20:43 Speaker 00 What kind of thing? Like?
20:44 Speaker 01 Oh, the amount of mise en place he would make me do, it'd make it almost impossible.
20:50 Speaker 01 But because I was ruled and fueled by my fears of failure, by my insecurities, I pushed myself through those pain barriers. I did everything. I did my job. I sat with him just before lockdown to have lunch with him. And I said to Chef Mark, I said, Chef,
21:13 Speaker 01 why did you treat me like a CUNT when I was young? His answer was the shortest.
21:22 Speaker 01 You know why, Marco. You know why.
21:26 Speaker 01 He knew that it was within me to win three stars.
21:31 Speaker 00 Can you subtract the bullying, if you want to call it that, and the cruelty, if you want to call it that, or just the brutality from the kitchen and still keep standards?
21:45 Speaker 01 I think what's important.
21:48 Speaker 01 The world is very different today. When I was a boy, like La Gavroche, you were ruled, like everybody else, by emotion. And everyone had the same dream.
22:01 Speaker 01 And that dream was to win three stars in Michelin. That dream was to be part of a three-star Michelin or a two-star. The chef was your Pied Piper. We followed him.
22:14 Speaker 01 That's what Albert was, a Pied Piper. We never questioned him, we followed him. And those were the standards and that's what we had to deliver at whatever cost.
22:25 Speaker 00 But is, I mean, you talk in the, in the book about Albert Roux jabbing at you with a ladle, for example, I think that's right, isn't it, or a spoon? And you get pissed off, you're like, I've had enough. I think you walk out at that point.
22:38 Speaker 01 I walk out though, I went back, but I walked out on that occasion.
22:40 Speaker 00 When you look back at like on YouTube, I invite listeners to check out many of the old videos of, of you in the kitchen.
22:49 Speaker 00 I would say heaping invective or behaving. In fact, even in your book, you talk about, you, you know, your willingness to use appropriate language if you felt someone was falling down on the job. But to a dispassionate observer, it might seem cruel.
23:06 Speaker 01 Lots of people don't understand our world. It's not personal.
23:11 Speaker 00 Having worked your way through these
23:14 Speaker 00 kitchens and, and working at the highest level and picking something up, whether it's from Raymond Blanc, Albert Roux, Pierre Kaufman, Nico Ladinie, these, these are legends of the London culinary scene. Then you, you decide to set out and make your own restaurant at the tender age of, what, 27, was it?
23:31 Speaker 01 Twenty-four when I got harvest.
23:32 Speaker 00 Was it? And so.
23:36 Speaker 00 And it was in South London, I was in South London, I was a sixteen year old or fifteen year old schoolboy. I remember it was strange because it wasn't considered a salubrious area. You were on the overlooking Wandsworth Common. It was at the very sort of beginning of the yuppie era, so I suppose things were changing. And there was this sort of clientele with cash to spend and wanting to be seen fine dining. One of the things you became perhaps most famous for alongside the food was your willingness to eject people from the establishment if you felt they were being rude. You had a procedure called, you called it the whoosh.
24:11 Speaker 01 Well, I didn't create that name, someone else did.
24:13 Speaker 00 The whoosh, really?
24:14 Speaker 01 I never created that. I think that was Jean Christophe, my manager. But the reality is if customers were rude to the staff, or customers were swearing or making scenes at the table, then they'd first be asked to be quiet. And if they continued, then they were asked to leave. You'd never ask for the bill, just please leave. I don't know if you've ever been in a restaurant and people are behaving badly and that impacts on your table.
24:42 Speaker 00 Of course, especially if they're, even if they're just very noisy, if it's a large party.
24:45 Speaker 01 It was on the news this morning, wasn't it?
24:46 Speaker 00 Was it?
24:47 Speaker 01 Some lady who used to be a news presenter went to a restaurant or a hotel in Kent and the behaviour of a certain table spoilt their lunch.
24:55 Speaker 00 Right.
24:57 Speaker 01 But the proprietors or the management never did anything about it. I think you have a duty and a responsibility to look after your clients. Everyone's there for a special reason, whatever that reason may be, whether it's a celebration, whether it's birthday or an engagement, who knows? And you have four city boys, if you think of, I think they were called yuppies in the eighties.
25:20 Speaker 00 They certainly were, yeah.
25:21 Speaker 01 And they behaved in a certain way.
25:26 Speaker 01 And to the table next to them wasn't acceptable. So we'd ask them to refrain from swearing or being allowed. They'd always say, look how much money we've spent this evening. They'd missed the point. It wasn't about the money. They had to go.
25:40 Speaker 00 Would you come out and do it yourself, or would your maître d' do it?
25:44 Speaker 01 Uh, sometimes it was myself, or sometimes it was the maître d'.
25:49 Speaker 00 If you say to someone, like, there's a, there's a, there's an account somewhere where one of your customers says, uh, you, you've had a word with them, they say, you're, you made me look like a cunt in front of my wife.
26:01 Speaker 01 No, what happened was, no, what happened was, I'll tell you. So I arrive at the Mirabelle. And Marion.
26:09 Speaker 00 This was a bit later, different restaurant.
26:11 Speaker 01 This was the Mirabelle. This would have been the early 2000s. And I walked to my office and there's Marion, the head receptionist crying. And I said, why are you crying, Marion? And she said, the man on whatever table called me a cunt.
26:29 Speaker 00 Right.
26:31 Speaker 01 I said, what table? And what was his name? So I go to his table. I said, good evening. He said, good evening. I said, um, do you have a problem? And this is word verbatim. He said, no, why'd you, why'd you ask? I said, well, would you like to step away from the table? And we could have a private conversation? He said, no, you can say it here. So I said, my head receptionist Marion is in my office crying. I'm now going to give you five minutes to make the decision whether you wish to apologize. Or you leave. I'll be in the bar.
27:16 Speaker 01 And he came through to me. And he said to me. Why did you make me look like a? I said, I didn't, sir. You did it to yourself. Have you made your decision? He said, we're leaving. I said, that's the best decision and the most sensible thing you've said this evening. Good night, sir. Enjoy your evening.
27:38 Speaker 00 In other versions. He says, you just made me look like a cunt in front of my wife and friends, and you said, that's because you are a cunt.
27:45 Speaker 01 That's not true. That's, that's.
27:47 Speaker 00 That's in chapter twenty one of your book.
27:49 Speaker 01 But that's James Dean.
27:50 Speaker 00 Who's James Dean?
27:52 Speaker 01 He was the writer.
27:53 Speaker 00 Really?
27:54 Speaker 01 There's nothing wrong with poetic.
27:55 Speaker 00 He dressed it up a bit.
27:56 Speaker 01 And you know it better than anybody, Louis. I don't have to tell you.
28:24 Speaker 00 In the late eighties, when you, when Harvey's was, was, was going. You specialized in sumptuous food. It was, I'm trying to do justice to people. If it was, if you were a singer, we could play one of your songs. If you were a filmmaker, we'd talk about the scenes from the films, maybe. A, a, as a, as a gastronom or a chef, um, we just have to describe the food a little bit. The London Times restaurant critic Jonathan Meads visited Harvey's. It, and he said, I had brains en gelée, followed by rabbit in longoustine sauce. It sounds.
29:00 Speaker 01 You must have met Jonathan. You must have met Jonathan.
29:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, a few years ago.
29:03 Speaker 01 He was an extraordinary man. He was the most feared critic.
29:06 Speaker 00 Was he?
29:07 Speaker 01 The reality is. It was just me being very practical. But the combination of rabbit and longoustines, like the French have done, chicken and crayfish, bouillou éclavise. Or la pro, or éclavise for years. It's just one of those delicious combinations which works. The, the, uh, the coulée of éclavise with the rabbit, it's very delicious.
29:32 Speaker 00 In that era. Alongside your extraordinary culinary ability, um, was the fact that you were very good looking.
29:44 Speaker 01 I don't know about that.
29:47 Speaker 00 There's photographic evidence to prove it.
29:52 Speaker 01 But I still don't look at myself like that. I look at my children and think they're very beautiful.
29:57 Speaker 00 You were the rock star chef.
30:00 Speaker 01 Ah, yes.
30:01 Speaker 00 And you were in the middle of a lot of attention.
30:03 Speaker 01 Alan Crompton Bat comes to see me and says, Marco, I'd like to do your PR.
30:09 Speaker 01 So Alan Crompton Bat does my PR for me.
30:12 Speaker 00 Did he bring in, is it Bob Carlos?
30:14 Speaker 01 No.
30:15 Speaker 00 Who, what's his name, a photographer?
30:16 Speaker 01 Bob Carlos Clarke.
30:17 Speaker 00 Bob Carlos Clarke, whose iconic images defined your mysterious allure.
30:24 Speaker 01 Well, they captured a moment in time within the world of gas.
30:27 Speaker 00 Always with a sharp knife, looking vaguely murderous, or with a ch- a cleaver lurking in front of a door.
30:35 Speaker 01 That was Bob.
30:37 Speaker 00 You weren't just a projection of his imagination. You had those qualities.
30:42 Speaker 01 Well, what happened was. So Alan Crompton Bat now, and this is what I say, I always say, Crompton Bat and Bob Carlos Clarke created the modern day chef. They created the celebrity chef, the two of them.
30:58 Speaker 00 That was you.
31:00 Speaker 01 I was their muse.
31:01 Speaker 00 You were the original, uh, you were the originator.
31:07 Speaker 01 As I say, they captured a moment in time. The.
31:11 Speaker 00 The stars aligned in some way.
31:15 Speaker 01 And I suppose, see, one of my struggles was the hierarchy of my industry. They tried to suppress me.
31:26 Speaker 00 Who did?
31:26 Speaker 01 All of them.
31:27 Speaker 00 Name names.
31:30 Speaker 01 All the names we've spoken about already.
31:31 Speaker 00 Different ways, your mentors, these French chefs based in London.
31:35 Speaker 01 Like Albert, for example.
31:37 Speaker 00 Albertu.
31:38 Speaker 01 Albertu.
31:38 Speaker 00 Who called you a genius.
31:40 Speaker 01 It's, I am, Albert was fantastic. He, um. I won my first star, because he was my friend. I won my first star. And no one really felt threatened by one star.
31:57 Speaker 01 I remember Albert saying to me in eighty nine, Marco, don't change your menu.
32:04 Speaker 01 Don't change it, just refine it. And in January, you will win your two stars in Michelin. I never, ever, ever changed my menu. I refined it.
32:15 Speaker 00 Mm hmm. But your point was, why did you, what was your, they were trying to hold you back?
32:20 Speaker 01 Ah, this is, now we're getting to it. Now I win two stars in Michelin.
32:26 Speaker 01 Now the hierarchy, they're trying to stop things. It's like, for example.
32:32 Speaker 00 You're getting too big. They're threatened.
32:35 Speaker 01 That's right. But also, I had all the press.
32:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, must have been annoying for them.
32:41 Speaker 01 All those front covers. They'd, they'd worked all their lives and never, I had more in a year than they'd had in their entire lifetime.
32:48 Speaker 00 And worth saying, you were in your twenties. When you got your third star, you were thirty three, the youngest, as I'm given to understand, the youngest person in history to win three stars.
32:59 Speaker 01 That's right.
33:00 Speaker 00 Um, and the first British chef to win three stars.
33:03 Speaker 01 That's right. I was lucky.
33:05 Speaker 00 One night you were, go on.
33:06 Speaker 01 But the truth, but the truth is.
33:07 Speaker 00 Lucky, stop it. Don't, false modesty is not a good look.
33:09 Speaker 01 No, no, no, no, it's not false modesty. As I said to your producer, success is born out of luck. Lucky's been given the opportunity. It's awareness of mine that takes advantage of that opportunity. I knew lots of great cooks.
33:23 Speaker 00 Opportunity meets preparation. Napoleon said a general makes his own luck.
33:27 Speaker 01 That's true.
33:29 Speaker 00 Um, women loved you. Uh, you've told a story in the past about being in the restaurant. One time a woman left her husband at the table and came upstairs to find the lavatory. She passed you and gave you a look and you end up in your office together.
33:44 Speaker 01 I locked her on the roof.
33:46 Speaker 00 Well, that was afterwards.
33:47 Speaker 01 What page is that in the book?
33:48 Speaker 00 What took place in the office?
33:51 Speaker 01 What page is that, Lily? You must have it in your notes, because I want to know.
33:55 Speaker 00 Why is that important?
33:56 Speaker 01 You keep on giving me page numbers.
33:57 Speaker 00 I could find it, but you don't need to know the page number. But she, she describes forty ish, full bodied, wearing a low cut dress. She said to her husband.
34:06 Speaker 01 That's James Steen again. I think you should sit down with James rather than me.
34:10 Speaker 00 And then you are, what you, is that a true story though?
34:12 Speaker 01 It's a true story. It's a true story.
34:14 Speaker 00 Did you actually make love to the woman?
34:16 Speaker 01 No, I did not make love to her.
34:17 Speaker 00 I don't mean, I mean in the old fashioned sense.
34:19 Speaker 01 I kissed her.
34:20 Speaker 00 Did you?
34:20 Speaker 01 I did.
34:21 Speaker 00 Where?
34:22 Speaker 01 On the lips.
34:24 Speaker 01 And then I then my phone rings and I excuse myself. I answer the phone and the manager said to me, Makor. The manager's, uh, the husband is on the way up the stairs. So I put it on the roof and locked the door and this was February time.
34:37 Speaker 00 She climbed out the window.
34:39 Speaker 01 No, she didn't. That's that's another story that one is I locked the door. I locked the door and I.
34:43 Speaker 00 How did you get to the roof?
34:45 Speaker 01 And I sit there because I was on the top floor.
34:46 Speaker 00 Right.
34:47 Speaker 01 Because it walked out like onto a terrace.
34:48 Speaker 00 Right.
34:49 Speaker 01 And I'm telling my office and this man appears. He said, have you seen my wife? This must have been a clue for him. I said, and what does she look like? Like if lots of people walking past my office, what a stupid thing that was. And he describes her. I said, not seen her, mate, sorry. And he disappeared.
35:05 Speaker 00 You probably had lipstick smeared all over your mouth.
35:07 Speaker 01 No, I'd wipe it off. I'd wipe it off. I think I think, but I didn't have it. I don't, who knows? Who knows? I wasn't looking at myself. And I I then.
35:17 Speaker 01 I rang downstairs and I said, Sean, when he's back at the table, let me know. About fifteen minutes later, he said, Makor, he rings me and says, Makor, the husband back at the table. Look, I was a boy of twenty five years old.
35:30 Speaker 01 Growing up, discovering life and I um.
35:35 Speaker 01 I let I opened the door. And there was a windswept lady, I think, suffering from hypothermia. And I said, your husband's back at the table. I never saw her again.
35:50 Speaker 00 It was a funny story and it turned into a sad story.
35:55 Speaker 01 I don't, I don't think it's sad. It was, it was, it was.
35:59 Speaker 00 The way you said that was so plain, if you look like a child, like you were saying, I never saw her again.
36:03 Speaker 01 I didn't see her again, Louis.
36:05 Speaker 00 Were you expecting to? Were you hoping that would turn into a?
36:06 Speaker 01 I said that before you asked me. I'm preempting the questions, Louis.
36:11 Speaker 00 You thought it was going to lead to a second date?
36:14 Speaker 01 I'm not that presumptuous. But I wouldn't have been surprised or shocked.
36:19 Speaker 00 Did you make the most of it? We must have been a lot. You weren't a drinker or a drug taker.
36:23 Speaker 01 No, I know. I will.
36:24 Speaker 00 You were, but you were having fun.
36:25 Speaker 01 I never, I I I didn't start drinking until I was in my forties.
36:30 Speaker 00 Why did you start?
36:33 Speaker 01 I gave up cooking.
36:34 Speaker 00 Yeah. You lost your way a bit when you, you, you sort of were like, you were like Alexander, you conquered, there was no world left to conquer. You talk about being, um, having got your third star and it was like, everything, everything went out of the whole.
36:51 Speaker 01 Ninety five, I won my three, in ninety five, I won my three stars. That period of my life was highly creative in one sense, but highly destructive in another sense. Because the amount I had to give was unhealthy. What was interesting, and I don't know if I've ever spoke about this, is when I retired from the stove, I was lost.
37:18 Speaker 01 My decision was born out of a very simple thought. I wasn't happy being in the kitchen. It no longer excited me. It was conveyor belt cuisine, it was cooking by numbers. It was all about defending our reputation. Defending our position. Winning one star is very exciting, maybe the most exciting. Winning two stars is exciting, winning three stars is exciting. Defending them is very boring.
37:58 Speaker 01 But I came from a world where chef's position was behind the stove. And that's where I was, always behind the stove. And if I didn't touch it with my fingers, I touched it with my eyes, with my palate. So I touched every single dish that left that kitchen. Now I'm in a position where I'm doing a hundred hours a week and I'm not happy.
38:26 Speaker 01 Because now we're playing that defensive game, not that exciting game of creating. There's too much at risk. I saw Alberu lose his three stars. I saw Coffman lose his three stars.
38:36 Speaker 00 What was that like?
38:38 Speaker 01 I was the man who told Albert. He asked me what I knew.
38:43 Speaker 00 Really? You had the inside knowledge, like you knew for some reason? How did you know?
38:49 Speaker 01 What happened was Gordon Ramsay told me.
38:51 Speaker 00 How did Ramsay?
38:53 Speaker 01 Gordon Ramsay's father-in-law was a publisher.
38:55 Speaker 00 Right.
38:56 Speaker 01 He obviously knew where the book was being published. So Gordon told me. Albert rang me up and asked me if I knew anything. I said, I've heard one or two things. He said, what about Gavroche? I said. I, I said, I've been told that you've lost your star, Albert.
39:13 Speaker 00 Lost one of three?
39:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, one of three.
39:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
39:16 Speaker 01 You've lost your star. He said, how did you know that, Michael? And I explained why, how I knew it.
39:21 Speaker 01 And it was true.
39:22 Speaker 00 Did it feel significant?
39:23 Speaker 01 He, he, he, of course, no one had ever lost three stars. Albert was the first person to win three stars. Albert was the godfather of our world. He was the heavyweight.
39:32 Speaker 00 In, in England, in the UK?
39:34 Speaker 01 In the UK, enormous. And.
39:37 Speaker 00 You said, did his face do something? Were you in part, this was on the phone?
39:40 Speaker 01 I found it rather sad. That Albert had lost his three stars. It's like I found it sad that Pierre had lost his three stars. And I said. A few months later, I sat with Derek Brown, the head inspector of Michelin. And I said, Mr. Brown. Why did Gavroche lose her three stars? And he said to me. I dined there four times last year. And three times out of the four. It wasn't a three-star meal. Didn't say it was bad, if it wasn't a three-star meal. I said, ah, so.
40:19 Speaker 01 So I'm not enjoying it. I'm fishing one Sunday morning on the test for salmon. And I catch a hen fish.
40:28 Speaker 01 And I unhook her and I release her back into the water and I arrest the pool. In those days I smoked, I light a cigarette, I sit on the bench. And this little thought comes into my mind. Marco, you're being judged by people who have less knowledge than you. So what's it worth? The following day, I contacted Michelin and said, the 23rd of December 1999, I'll be stepping down from the stove, Robert Reed will be taking over. Hanging my apron.
41:05 Speaker 00 There's a version where you say, I don't wish to be included in future editions of your book.
41:10 Speaker 01 Is that in my book by James Dean again?
41:14 Speaker 00 It's been said that you can't, you said, it's the conventional wisdom is you returned your stars. You said, I don't want them, you can have them back, which apparently is not something you can do.
41:23 Speaker 01 The reality is, is by stepping down from the kitchen, they have to take them off you've, you've told them.
41:30 Speaker 00 Really?
41:31 Speaker 01 You've told them, think about it logically.
41:32 Speaker 00 Yeah.
41:33 Speaker 01 I'm no longer going to be in the kitchen, the guy, this is in September, the guy goes to print in October in those days, they, and I said, Robert Reed will be taking over.
41:39 Speaker 00 Although there's chefs who have multiple restaurants with stars, right? And they can't be in all the restaurants at the same time.
41:45 Speaker 01 But the reality is, is today, see, in the world, the world that I came from, a chef had to be behind his stove to have three stars. That's not the case today.
42:00 Speaker 00 Can we talk Ramsey?
42:01 Speaker 01 Yes, of course we can talk Gordon.
42:03 Speaker 00 He said that, um, I mean, it's, it's a storied relationship. You hired him, he talks about you brutalising him in a way that he felt he learned from. Nevertheless, he was once asked, which living person?
42:16 Speaker 01 Was this in his biography?
42:17 Speaker 00 This is in Humble Pine.
42:18 Speaker 01 I'm sure it's the author.
42:20 Speaker 00 Might have been written by James Dean as well.
42:22 Speaker 01 No, and it wasn't James Dean, it was somebody else.
42:25 Speaker 00 Which living person do you dislike the most? He was once asked. Marco, he's two-faced. He also said, what was the worst thing anybody has ever said to you? Uh, there was a situation at Harvey's, we were in full flight in the kitchen, Marco was in the way, I couldn't get to the steamer, I pushed him out of the way, he elbowed me, so I dropped some red mullet. He said, you're like dog shit, always in the middle of the road.
42:47 Speaker 01 That's not true.
42:50 Speaker 00 And then there were times when you feuded. He then, there was this famous case where he accused you or someone with you of stealing his reservations book in order to undermine his bookings.
43:00 Speaker 01 But if you read his autobiography.
43:01 Speaker 00 And then he later went on and said, actually, no one stole it. He pretended, or he stole it from himself.
43:05 Speaker 01 He blamed Markov, that's what he says in the book.
43:08 Speaker 00 Did you value Gordon's ability in the kitchen?
43:11 Speaker 01 Gordon came to me as a young man. He was, I think he must have been about 21 when he came to me. And he worked with me until July 89. So he started in the January of 88. So he did 19 months with me.
43:38 Speaker 01 I got him a job at Gavroche with Albert.
43:42 Speaker 01 And so he went to work in Gavroche. And then from Gavroche, he went to work for Guisevois. And I assisted him and helped him with France.
43:55 Speaker 01 Because I liked Gordon. He was kind. He worked hard for me and he asked me for a favour and I did that favour.
44:00 Speaker 00 A talented?
44:02 Speaker 01 He's a great technician, is Gordon.
44:06 Speaker 01 A really good technician. And then he came, then he went to Robuchon.
44:10 Speaker 00 About artistry?
44:13 Speaker 01 Gordon is, when I say, I always think of Gordon, when I think of Gordon, his plates are clean, they're always tidy.
44:22 Speaker 01 They're tidy.
44:24 Speaker 01 And they're consistent. And that's what it takes to win three stars in Michigan. Great technician, great palette, tidy plates, consistent.
44:35 Speaker 00 These are interesting facts. I'm not, I'm not getting the feelings.
44:40 Speaker 01 What do you mean the feelings?
44:42 Speaker 00 Well, um, did you like him?
44:46 Speaker 01 I like Gordon, yes.
44:47 Speaker 00 You made him cry.
44:49 Speaker 01 He made himself cry. He was chopping onions at the time, Louis.
44:53 Speaker 00 That's, see, that's trivialising, because he wasn't chopping onions.
44:57 Speaker 01 He weren't there.
44:58 Speaker 00 No, but I've read the story. I don't recall what he'd done wrong, but I monstered him and he lost it. Gordon, this is you speaking. Gordon crouched down on the floor in the corner of the kitchen.
45:09 Speaker 01 Not true.
45:09 Speaker 00 Buried his head in his hands.
45:11 Speaker 01 That's James Steens.
45:12 Speaker 00 This isn't even from your book. It's just from a profile in the New York Times. Gordon crouched down on the floor in the corner of the kitchen, buried his head in his hands and started sobbing. "I don't care what you do to me," he said as he wept. "Hit me. I don't care. Sack me. I don't care." "I was hardly going to sack him. He was leaving the next day."
45:30 Speaker 01 I sued the New York Times for defamation.
45:34 Speaker 00 They accused you of, they, they kind of cavalierly suggested you were a drinker and a drug taker and you pointed out you were neither.
45:41 Speaker 01 What they said was that I had a well-publicised bout of drugs and alcohol. I'd never taken a drug in my life and I didn't drink. And so if you think, if they're prepared to, if they're prepared to write that, they're prepared to write anything.
45:56 Speaker 00 Perhaps I created the monster, it continues. Ramsey the monster who ended up as a TV personality screaming at celebrities on Hell's Kitchen, doing to them what I had done to him. It's unlikely we shall ever know each other again.
46:08 Speaker 01 Can I ask you the question?
46:09 Speaker 00 This is the punch and I wait. When I cut, I cut.
46:13 Speaker 01 No, no, that is.
46:15 Speaker 00 Is that not true?
46:16 Speaker 01 That is not true.
46:17 Speaker 00 Really? Which bit?
46:19 Speaker 01 What's true is Gordon cried. And it was his last night or his second to last night. I think it was his last night. It was highly emotional for him.
46:27 Speaker 00 Did you, and, and do you remember?
46:28 Speaker 01 I did say, and he did say to me, "I don't care, Mark. Just fucking hit me. Whatever."
46:35 Speaker 01 He was very upset.
46:36 Speaker 00 Why was he upset?
46:37 Speaker 01 It's thirty plus years ago.
46:40 Speaker 00 Do you think that you created the Ramsey persona in some way, that he kind of internalized?
46:46 Speaker 01 I cannot be held responsible for that. I can't be. Gordon is his own creation. Like, I'm my own creation, you're your own creation. We're responsible for our own journeys in life, Louis. And it's at the end of the day, Gordon and I go back, let's be honest now, we go back forty years to Gordon and I.
47:07 Speaker 00 Are you friendly now?
47:08 Speaker 01 Yes, we're doing a TV show together. When the press attacked my son the other week, Gordon sent me the most beautiful text. So, the Gordon Ramsay the press wants to talk about is not the Gordon Ramsay I know. Gordon Ramsay, as far as I'm concerned, is a beautiful boy.
47:27 Speaker 00 Uh, you got into some hot water, you appeared to possibly, I say this very hesitantly, endorse Nigel Farage?
47:39 Speaker 01 I don't endorse anybody. I've never voted in my life.
47:42 Speaker 00 Haven't you?
47:42 Speaker 01 No, he is a customer.
47:44 Speaker 00 Of what?
47:46 Speaker 01 Of the Hotel in Bath.
47:48 Speaker 00 Really? Which is called the?
47:50 Speaker 01 Rotherham.
47:51 Speaker 00 He's a customer, so he comes in, so you like his vibe? You know him?
47:56 Speaker 01 I wouldn't say that I know him. I've been in his company briefly on one occasion, but he's been when I've not been there. But he's very polite. He comes across as being very honest. And I think he's very clever.
48:13 Speaker 00 So you're not a political animal, really?
48:15 Speaker 01 No. No, my favorite, look, I used to have lunch with Thatcher when I was a young man.
48:20 Speaker 00 Did you?
48:20 Speaker 01 In the Mirabelle, yeah. She was special.
48:24 Speaker 00 You actually, it would be you and her and who else?
48:26 Speaker 01 Dennis, Lord Churchill.
48:29 Speaker 00 Stop it.
48:32 Speaker 01 See, being arrested, the beauty had been arrested her.
48:37 Speaker 01 Is everyone crosses your path.
48:38 Speaker 00 What do people get wrong about Thatcher and Dennis?
48:43 Speaker 01 Well, Dennis was very supportive, I would say. He was kind.
48:47 Speaker 00 Of her, it's one of her.
48:48 Speaker 01 Very kind, very understated. Thatcher was always interested.
48:55 Speaker 01 In your thoughts, not her thoughts, which I found interesting.
49:00 Speaker 00 What did she like to eat?
49:03 Speaker 01 Straightforward, simple food. But for example, she wants to ask me the, one of the questions she wants to ask me, she said, Marco, when you promote someone into a senior position, what makes you make that decision?
49:17 Speaker 00 She said that.
49:18 Speaker 01 So, what was interesting, all her questions were like that, they were very simple. Her construction of sentence was very simple.
49:26 Speaker 00 What did you say?
49:28 Speaker 01 I said, well, I promote someone into a senior position.
49:33 Speaker 01 They must promote the company, not themselves.
49:37 Speaker 01 And she said, I was sitting here, she said, they must promote the company, not themselves. And then she said, you're absolutely right. She'd never point her finger at you. She'd always hold it in the air.
49:52 Speaker 00 Really?
49:53 Speaker 01 She wasn't very polite.
49:55 Speaker 00 Uh, how's your energy? Are you all right? You're doing okay? You're not thinking of taking you hostage?
50:00 Speaker 01 What are you implying? That I'm suffering from the Stockholm syndrome?
50:03 Speaker 00 It could be. I read that they were turning your life into a movie. Russell Crowe was attached.
50:10 Speaker 01 It started with, it started with Ridley.
50:14 Speaker 00 Ridley Scott was to direct?
50:16 Speaker 01 Yes. So Ridley signs me up. And I forget the name of the, Nicholas was the, um, the screenwriter. And I worked with him. And then Ridley brings Russell in.
50:30 Speaker 00 Mm hmm. Who'd been in Gladiator, which Ridley directed.
50:33 Speaker 01 And so I go to Nana Glen, because I'm being told by Ridley. So I go to Nana Glen.
50:41 Speaker 00 Was, what's, is that where he lives?
50:42 Speaker 01 That's where Russell lives.
50:43 Speaker 00 Russell?
50:44 Speaker 01 In Australia.
50:44 Speaker 00 Okay.
50:46 Speaker 01 Something Harbour, Clothwell.
50:47 Speaker 00 You flew all the way to Australia?
50:49 Speaker 01 Yeah. So I spend a week, 10 days with Russell.
50:51 Speaker 00 Just hanging? Wow.
50:53 Speaker 01 And he, everything I do, he films, everything I say, he films.
50:57 Speaker 00 Really?
50:59 Speaker 01 And then Ridley and Russell fall out.
51:05 Speaker 01 So now I'm on the fence and I have to make a decision. Russell or Ridley? I've just spent 10 days with Russell. His mother and father were very kind to me. They all looked after me.
51:24 Speaker 01 And made my stay very comfortable and enjoyable.
51:29 Speaker 01 So I went with Russell.
51:32 Speaker 01 So now I get to know Russell.
51:39 Speaker 01 And then it's time to renew the option. And they want to renew the option. And I said, no.
51:49 Speaker 01 I had time to think about it.
51:52 Speaker 01 I think it's better they make a movie if they want to make a movie on me when I'm dead. Not while I'm alive. Like when I was asked to read my book, The Devil in the Kitchen. And I got to that moment of reading about my mother's life dying. I put the book down and said, it's fine. So when you tell me things like you did today.
52:14 Speaker 01 I don't know, because I've not read it. So you've given me insight to how simple stories have become fabricated stories. But I suppose people want to make things more exciting, more romantic.
52:27 Speaker 00 Maybe.
52:27 Speaker 01 I suppose it's called poetic license. So you can't do that with food.
52:35 Speaker 00 Uh, do you get in the kitchen much yourself?
52:37 Speaker 01 I help the boys. I like it.
52:39 Speaker 00 At Rudlow?
52:40 Speaker 01 At Rudlow, yes. So I like going, so.
52:42 Speaker 00 Because you've said that you hate cooking. You're on record as saying that you hate cooking.
52:48 Speaker 01 What?
52:49 Speaker 00 I don't know. I can find it if you like.
52:51 Speaker 01 Oh, I don't care.
52:52 Speaker 00 Maybe it was like, maybe it was when you felt burned out by, by the high octane cooking of, of sort of Michelin star quality.
52:58 Speaker 01 Now, I, I, I, I, I like to cook. I like to teach. I like cooking gravy for Christmas Day lunch. I like making the stuffing at Christmas Day. So on Christmas Day, I always go in the kitchen with the boys and the girls and I, and then we make the gravy.
53:14 Speaker 00 From the giblets?
53:16 Speaker 01 I do use the giblets. I use the gizzards, the hearts and the liver. I dice them very small. And then when the take, when it's, when it's away, we put the giblets in at the very last minute. And then we put the turkey fat back into it. So it's a gras. So it's like a jus gras. So when we make the gravy, gravy's gravy and it's delicious. But when you take the fat from the roasting of the bones. And you, you pour some of it into the gravy, but you don't mix it in. So it's a split sauce. Like the only way I can describe it. So it's like. Balsamico and olive oil is split.
53:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
53:52 Speaker 01 So when you put it over your bird, the gravy runs off, but then it's French varnish with the fat, the gras, which changes everything. The gras is the most important and.
54:03 Speaker 00 Because the flavour's in the fat.
54:06 Speaker 01 There's a lot of fa- flavour in the fat. When you think rendered turkey fat is deliciously good.
54:12 Speaker 00 Do you ever use an air fryer?
54:14 Speaker 01 No. Do you?
54:16 Speaker 00 Yes, they're quite good. And you know that thing where.
54:19 Speaker 01 They're very fast. They're like the sort of Ferrari of the kitchen, aren't they?
54:21 Speaker 00 Sometimes you can get, so you get chicken thighs, uh, and then some recipes call you, you remove the skin, you know, what am I going to do with the skin? Put it in the air fryer.
54:30 Speaker 01 Skin's delicious.
54:31 Speaker 00 And you can make little kind of chicken skin crisps. And then at the bottom of the air fryer, what do you have? All the fat.
54:38 Speaker 01 Oh, the gras.
54:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, and you can pour that.
54:40 Speaker 01 So keep that.
54:41 Speaker 00 Pop that in the fridge.
54:42 Speaker 01 Pop that in your gravy.
54:43 Speaker 00 You can, you can do that, yeah, use it with your potatoes or something.
54:46 Speaker 01 Delicious.
54:47 Speaker 00 Delicious. And the chi- and the little crispy skin is nice.
54:50 Speaker 01 Chicken, my mother used to boil chicken. It was so good with vegetables.
54:53 Speaker 00 That sounds, but then the skin would be gelatinous and weird.
54:57 Speaker 01 Because what happens is the skin renders and that the last.
55:00 Speaker 00 At that temperature, surely.
55:01 Speaker 01 No, because if you think, there's your vegetables, there's your chicken legs, because she didn't, not the breasts, just the legs, cut the legs in half with the carrots, with the leeks, with the celery, bit of garlic, all quite chunky.
55:13 Speaker 00 And boil that.
55:14 Speaker 01 And simmer. And then at the last minute, she'd throw olive oil on with parsley and bay leaf. And we'd, the, the best bit was actually getting your bread and butter and dipping it in the broth. So deliciously good.
55:29 Speaker 00 Wouldn't those chicken legs, the skin would be, um, gelatinous, wouldn't it?
55:33 Speaker 01 Beautiful.
55:34 Speaker 00 Would you like to eat that?
55:36 Speaker 01 I did, and I still do.
55:37 Speaker 00 You don't like crispy skin?
55:39 Speaker 01 I like both. It's like when I was a boy at the Gavroche, the staff would have the confit de canard and the skin would be soft, not crispy, delicious. I love, see, when fat is cooked to perfection, it's so good.
55:57 Speaker 01 We like all those secondary cuts. They taste much better. Who wants a breast when you can have a delicious thigh?
56:03 Speaker 00 Why, there's still some Michelin in you, isn't there? Even though you saw through the veil, you realised, hey, you can't judge me. I'm above you. Nevertheless, it has some hold over you. Could you ever see yourself going back?
56:21 Speaker 00 It's too demanding.
56:22 Speaker 01 Michelin has changed. Today, they dish them out like confetti. But you have to say
56:31 Speaker 01 that Michelin have done more for gastronomy than any individual or any other institution in this world. So you have to give credit where it's due. They create dreams for chefs.
56:46 Speaker 00 Thanks so much for coming by. I think the door's open. That means they're going to kick us out.
56:50 Speaker 01 I think that's, that's very subtle, Hilton.
56:53 Speaker 00 I know.
56:54 Speaker 01 I hope you enjoyed yourself.
56:56 Speaker 00 I really did. It was a real honour to have you come by and thank you for being so generous with your time.
57:14 Speaker 00 And service. That's what they say in restaurants when the food has to go out. I've seen that. So I'm saying it now to say, uh, we're back and I hope you enjoyed, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Uh, it was a thrill doing it and specifically to see Marco. There's a lot of emotion there, deep feeling. When he was talking about the box tree in Ilkley. Every, I'm still box tree. I'm far more box tree than I am Robichaud. I'm far more box tree than I am Urschlaive. I'm far more box tree. Like, that's quite good, isn't it?
57:51 Speaker 02 You're making him a lot more northern than...
57:53 Speaker 00 He said, that's how he said he's got that deep grumly. Millie says, I'm making more northern. Hello, he's from the north. He's from Leeds. And actually, the more relaxed he got, the more northern he got. I'm far more box tree. I think if you check that.
58:05 Speaker 02 I don't think so.
58:06 Speaker 00 Okay, let us know if you think, how good was my Marco Pierre White impression?
58:12 Speaker 00 What was the other thing he said? He had to tell, was it Al Beru that he'd lost one of his Michelin stars? You've lost your star. I've gone a bit, who have I gone into now? Gone to sort of Jim Bowen? Don't say the JS word.
58:32 Speaker 00 You've lost your Michelin star. There's nothing I can do about it. How do you know, Marco? I've been talking. Gordon's got a friend who works at the publishers. You've lost your fucking star. Nothing, no, I'm getting away, no, that's not even funny anymore. That's just offensive. Biopic with Russell Crowe. Who would play you, says Millie. Well, which period does it cover? Does it cover the Weird Weekends years? Or does it cover the later years? The glory years? Does it cover the wilderness years? That's a joke. There have never been any wilderness years. Well, which years were you thinking about? Maybe these are the wilderness years. What do you mean?
59:17 Speaker 00 When he started a podcast? He stopped doing documentaries and he did a podcast. No one wants to see a film about that. Do they? Definitely. Millie's written, we did cut it out, but he said, you look like Arsene Wenger. The skeletal Arsenal manager who's about 100 years old. But then it says twilight years, Louis biopic. Okay, so fair enough. Arsene Wenger's French, he's stylish and elegant. He's not, he's not an unattractive man and he has a kind of, they used to call him the professor, did they?
59:58 Speaker 00 And it's a privilege to be told that I look like a 95 year old French man with a big nose and no evident body mass. That's it for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Mark Morn, the editor was Tom Fuller, the production manager was Francesca Bassett. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows. This is a Mindhouse Studios production for Spotify.
Previous S8 EP1: Gary Lineker on England’s losing streak, leaving the BBC, and his frosty relationship with Cristiano Ronaldo Next S8 EP3: Andrew Callaghan on the ‘cancelverse’, lizard people, and whether he’s being sued by Melania Trump Page updated October 30, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated