Pod Insights The Louis Theroux Podcast S6 EP6: Florence Pugh discusses intimacy coordinators, jumping off buildings and getting into character About this episode In this episode, Louis speaks to British actress Florence Pugh. Joining Louis at Spotify HQ, Florence talks about “abusing” herself to get into character, whether intimacy coordinators are necessary on film sets, and jumping off a building from nearly 3000 feet.
Warnings: Strong language and adult themes. If you’ve been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify have a website for information and resources. Visit spotify.com/resources
Links/Attachments:
Midsommar (2019)
https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/midsommar/umc.cmc.3btmmnmdi8cci3gb2qupxli8o?action=play
Hereditary (2018)
https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/hereditary/umc.cmc.1p8skf72cqba9t91v2rqjbeyv?action=play
The Most Beautiful Boy in the World (2021)
https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/the-most-beautiful-boy-in-the-world/umc.cmc.6nsk7o2tf9grbf1cjmicejcrv
Little Women (2019)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuVlgl16DP0
Malevolent (2018)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2386237/
King Lear (2018)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7473890/
Thunderbolts* (2025)
https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/thunderbolts/umc.cmc.67bgkyn0fzr8n7ngw0v4mi2df?action=play
Anora (2024)
https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/anora/umc.cmc.ka0xf4gk3tckil4x7x14hpcy?action=play
We Live In Time (2024)
https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/we-live-in-time/umc.cmc.3en3aplqsmjw1pbltmzo7p4mx?action=play
Article: Florence Pugh shares her life lessons
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/culture/a64501157/florence-pugh-life-lessons-video-interview/
The Wonder (2022)
https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81426931?source=35&fromWatch=true
Lady Macbeth (2016)
https://tv.apple.com/gb/movie/lady-macbeth/umc.cmc.1crmjkmj1nzsvuwurlmdgbiji?action=play
Don’t Worry Darling (2022)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10731256/
Credits:
Producer: Millie Chu
Assistant Producer: Sally McLennan
Production Manager: Francesca Bassett
Music: Miguel D’Oliveira
Audio Mixer: Tom Guest
Video Mixer: Scott Edwards
Shownotes compiled by Elly Young
Executive Producer: Arron Fellows
A Mindhouse Production for Spotify
www.mindhouse.co.uk
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript 10,780 words · 2 speakers
0:00 Speaker 00 1212, ready, mic number one.
0:07 Speaker 00 Hello and welcome to the Louis Theroux podcast.
0:21 Speaker 00 Today, I'm joined by Hollywood megastar and indie darling Florence Pugh. Florence's filmography reads like a greatest hits of the last few years in cinema, from Galactic Royalty in Dune Part Two, to an anarchist love interest in Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer, and more recently, We Live in Time. In 2021, she entered the Marvel Cinematic Universe as Yelena Belova in Black Widow. She reprised the role earlier this year in Thunderbolts: Asterisk. The asterisk is part of the title, in which they hatch a whole new generation of superheroes, an elite team. I hadn't seen it when the chat happened, but I have seen it now. It's a lot of fun. I loved it, so did my 10-year-old.
1:02 Speaker 00 It's fun, like a lot of those Marvel films. It's witty and enjoyable. But before all of that, Florence made her acting debut in The Falling. Then came scene-stealing turns in Lady Macbeth: The Wonder. The horror film Midsomer, where I first encountered her work, that's well worth a watch. It's a very creepy and strange horror. Well, it's a horror film, but not of the conventional sort of bogeymen, jumpscares sort. It's like a depiction of a cult, is the best way I can describe it. Don't Worry Darling, in which she starred with Harry Styles and Chris Pine, and many, many more. This one was recorded in person, in a rare gap in Florence's filming schedule.
1:44 Speaker 00 She arrived bruised from doing some kind of, I don't know, filming that was physically very tough. And I was, I don't know, to my shame, I was surprised that you might get bruised shooting scenes, but the physicality of the work was obviously something that I'd underestimated. And Florence is someone who absolutely throws herself literally into the roles that she does. It's something we talk about. We arranged the interview directly, person to person, on Instagram.
2:18 Speaker 00 I didn't slide into her DMs. That sounds weird. I just sent her a DM. Well, did I slide? I guess, but in a completely appropriate way. I asked her if she'd like to come on the podcast and she said yes. She arrived with no minders, no fanfare. It was June. It was very, very hot. Do you remember? It seems a long time ago now. It was a very hot spell.
2:45 Speaker 00 And it wasn't hot in the studio. I'm just painting the picture for you. Picture me arriving on my bicycle and I'm hot and then I come into the Spotify studio and I cool down. Okay, I want that in your head. A warning, there's strong language in the episode as well as adult themes, discussion of mental health in general, vulnerability and much, much more. All of that coming up.
3:27 Speaker 00 How are you doing?
3:28 Speaker 01 I'm good.
3:29 Speaker 00 How are you?
3:29 Speaker 01 A bit achy.
3:30 Speaker 00 You enjoying the warm weather?
3:31 Speaker 01 Amazing, but I'm not in it though.
3:33 Speaker 00 You're not in it right now, but you're in it when you're outside the building.
3:36 Speaker 01 I haven't been in it. I've been, I've been in a studio doing stunts.
3:41 Speaker 00 Have you?
3:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:42 Speaker 00 For an unannounced project?
3:44 Speaker 01 Battered and bruised.
3:44 Speaker 00 What is it? You are actually bruised. I look... See that on your arm? What's that all about?
3:48 Speaker 01 I look like a dalmatian.
3:50 Speaker 00 What's going on?
3:51 Speaker 01 Doing stunts.
3:52 Speaker 00 So it's actually, how about that? I don't mean to smile.
3:57 Speaker 01 You're like, they actually go through pain.
3:59 Speaker 00 That's real. You actually go through, I always feel like that's a little bit of Hollywood promotional like, you know what I mean? But actually that looks like you were hurt.
4:06 Speaker 01 It does, doesn't it? And there's some on the back.
4:08 Speaker 00 Is it Dune 3?
4:10 Speaker 01 That's the one that I'm going to next month. The one I'm doing now is a Marvel movie.
4:17 Speaker 01 Avengers movie.
4:17 Speaker 00 Another one.
4:18 Speaker 01 Another one.
4:19 Speaker 00 I've seen so many of your films and love them so much.
4:21 Speaker 01 I know, you've been texting me that. Thank you so much.
4:23 Speaker 00 But I think one of the things around your career is that you've straddled the world of art house and also mainstream Hollywood, right? And which not everyone can do. And in fact, you've said that when you joined the MCU, you said, "So many people in the indie world were really pissed off at me. They were like, 'Great, now she's gone forever.'" And you said, "No, I'm like, I'm working as hard as I used to." Did it feel like a big step when you entered into the mainstream franchise world? Because there's some actors who say, "Like, I won't do that."
4:58 Speaker 01 I think it's completely dependent on what you want your career to look like. And I knew I had such a firm footing in my love for making indie movies and for making low-budget movies. And I knew that that was never gonna go. It's a completely different feeling. And when I was 22, I think, or 23, I got offered Black Widow. And I remember asking a few people what the experience was like on those movies. And so many people were just giving them so much praise for the freedom that you get and how it's a family and how it's a unit. And they care for you and they look after you.
5:42 Speaker 01 And it means that you also then can and will be able to support smaller movies and how it's a great decision. And I just really loved the idea that I get to do both. I get to experience both. I get to widen my range. And it also then means that because of the amount of people that are watching these movies, you're also giving more attention and more light to the smaller movies that maybe wouldn't have had that many bums on seats. So in terms of like, I guess, like, business helping business, they do wonderful things. And it was quite a clear decision for me to make. And also, it's fun and it's silly.
6:23 Speaker 01 And it's not, you're not dealing with normal circumstances. I mean, like, just literally the other day, I was on set with the most incredible cast. And we're all dressed in our superhero costumes. And we're all playing, like, just playing as if we're saving the world. And it's just such a unique thing to do.
6:46 Speaker 00 You say it's a different feeling. I think you meant something more modestly budgeted that's intended for a more select audience versus a huge Marvel film which is freighted with certain financial expectations. Do you mean in terms of the feeling on the set, the feeling of the people involved?
7:05 Speaker 01 Absolutely everything. It's a completely different feeling. I think it exercises different parts of my brain. It exercises different parts of my ability. It requires for me to step up in different ways to make sure that I'm protecting my character. You know, these machines are so big. It's very much up to you to make sure that every decision that is being made is correct. And so I think that when I go from a smaller movie to, I mean, even just any movie, I'm going on to do next month, it's, there's different energies in different ways. And I think I definitely need it. I like to be able to go from something
7:43 Speaker 01 that's massive to something that's small. And I think it allows me to be able to stretch in different ways and keep my brain and my body and my ability tested.
7:58 Speaker 00 I think what I admire about acting, and you especially because you're such a gifted actor, is that you seem so real, whether it's just spontaneous or choices you're making or some combination. I'm kind of in awe of your ability to be, to be so authentic in the scenes that you're in. You know, in the most unnatural environment I could imagine. So I'm aware I haven't asked a question, but so how do you do that?
8:25 Speaker 01 How do I do that? I don't want to make anything that feels inside me wrong. I don't want to make anything that feels fake. I don't want to do anything. I don't want to give any version of a performance that isn't aligning inside me correctly. Like I, and sometimes at the beginning of my career, I hadn't quite figured out the relationship between director and actor yet. And I found myself arguing a lot. I mean, it's something that I still do in a softer way now, but I think it was just, I never wanted to be... Put in a situation that didn't feel right and I didn't want them to have that and then
9:10 Speaker 01 use it. And I know that's obviously, you know, what a director is for and it's their vision, it's what they want, but I just always felt so protective of the character that I was playing and who I wanted people to see her as, that, um, yeah, I guess I didn't want to give over shit stuff. But I was never rude or disrespectful.
9:32 Speaker 00 What does that mean though? But you mean you were protecting your performance, which seems valid, but we also like, the framing on this shot is dreadful.
9:39 Speaker 01 No, not at all. No, no, no. I'd never touch what they were doing. I wouldn't be like, my goodness, you're making a load of crap. I think when you can do things and you can do an array of things, um, lots of the stuff that you do might stick, it might, might look good, but it doesn't necessarily feel correct. And I think when I was younger, I definitely was aware that I could, I could do it the way that they wanted, um, but it would feel weird and I would, I would just make sure that we would make, we were making the right decisions for the right reasons.
10:12 Speaker 00 Would you, if they said, let's go for another take, and would you ever say, no, I think we've got it?
10:17 Speaker 01 No, no way. No.
10:19 Speaker 00 Really? That would be a big, that would be a big move.
10:21 Speaker 01 No way. Can't do that. Someone said that on my behalf for me.
10:25 Speaker 00 Did they?
10:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:27 Speaker 00 A co-star?
10:28 Speaker 01 I think women on set, um, it's a bit stickier. You can't really be a problem because people will say that you're a nightmare.
10:38 Speaker 00 Really?
10:39 Speaker 01 And I remember I was doing like a crying scene and there were just all of these specific beats that I needed to get and specifically on specific lines. And we did it maybe like six times and each time you have to start with no tears and then gear up. So it's like you have to stay in it. And we got it and the director wanted to go again.
11:05 Speaker 00 Six times in a row.
11:07 Speaker 01 He did it six times. And when I'm in that state, I kind of, I'm, I'm a bit mushy, so I'm like, okay, we'll do it again. And my, my co-star went up to the director and said, don't do that, man. Don't, don't put her through that. She's got it. We got it. You've got the close up, you've got the wide. Don't do that. And I realized when I was in the tent, I was like, oh, I wouldn't have been able to have said that because that wouldn't have been received well.
11:29 Speaker 00 Interesting. Was your co-star male or female?
11:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, male.
11:33 Speaker 00 Male. Nice that he did that. Do you think that was the right thing to do?
11:38 Speaker 01 If they had it, they had it.
11:39 Speaker 00 Yeah. What did the director say?
11:41 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, absolutely. Straight away.
11:43 Speaker 00 Wow. How real are the emotions?
11:49 Speaker 01 Um, I, yeah, so I'm changing that. I, I, it used to be quite horribly real. When I did Midsommar, the character is in such a horrible state in her life. Um, and she's constantly on the brink of a panic attack or an emotional breakdown. Um, and I'd never, ever been through anything close to that or knew anyone that had been through that or feels like that.
12:16 Speaker 00 Shall we, for the audience, I loved Midsommar, and that was the first, um, film that I'd seen you in.
12:22 Speaker 01 Oh.
12:22 Speaker 00 It's directed by Ari Aster. How would you, it's a horror film, but that doesn't really do it justice. Because it's also like an ethnographic study of a Scandinavian cult.
12:34 Speaker 00 And like a lot of Ari Aster, well, the other one I'm thinking of is Hereditary. He's gone so deep in the folkloric aspects of it that you feel like this could all be true. And in fact, a lot of it is true.
12:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:44 Speaker 00 For example, there's a, there's an elderly couple who've hit seventy-five and they said, because we're seventy-five now, we jump off a cliff and kill ourselves. It's the end of our lives. They don't sound like that.
12:54 Speaker 01 I wish they did.
12:55 Speaker 00 But then you Google it, and that's a real thing. Apparently in some communities, when you hit seventy-five, in ancient times, you would commit, I can't remember what the word is.
13:05 Speaker 01 Well, the, the reason why they have that belief is their thought is, well, you're gonna put us in a home anyway and up past this age, we're just gonna be a nuisance, so we may as well make the decision ourselves to go out.
13:18 Speaker 00 It's very occurren, in the sense of being cliff now.
13:20 Speaker 01 I mean, if it wasn't.
13:21 Speaker 00 Part of the debate, assisted dying.
13:23 Speaker 01 If it wasn't so gruesome the way that they died, I'd be all for it.
13:27 Speaker 00 But it's an extreme, it's like they say about, they used to say about Inuits, that they went, you know, when, it was always a woman for some reason. When she got too old, they'd put her on an ice floe and push her out into the sea.
13:37 Speaker 01 Poor girl.
13:37 Speaker 00 Good luck, granny.
13:38 Speaker 01 Jesus Christ.
13:40 Speaker 00 And what's horrific in the scene is like, is this elderly, rather beautiful old couple.
13:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:45 Speaker 00 The guy is the guy who was in, um, a Visconti film.
13:48 Speaker 01 Yes.
13:50 Speaker 00 It's the most beautiful boy in the world.
13:51 Speaker 01 And he was shooting his documentary while we were making that movie.
13:54 Speaker 00 No way.
13:54 Speaker 01 So he had his camera team there. And I remember we were all like, what's going on there? And then we all got.
14:00 Speaker 00 I haven't seen the documentary, have you?
14:02 Speaker 01 I have, it's beautiful, sad, very sad.
14:04 Speaker 00 It's about the sort of strange, his elevation.
14:07 Speaker 01 Or rise and fall.
14:08 Speaker 00 To stardom, he's a very young man.
14:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, because he was so beautiful.
14:12 Speaker 00 Because he was such a beautifully handsome man. But your point was, oh no, I was just scene setting for the audience, that's right. And then your co-star get, is this a spoiler?
14:21 Speaker 01 People should have seen it by now, guys, come on.
14:23 Speaker 00 Well, let's put it as an image, there's this, your co-stars imprisoned in a, in a kind of bare carcass and drugged, is that right?
14:32 Speaker 01 So.
14:33 Speaker 00 Or is that you? You're not in a bare carcass, are you?
14:34 Speaker 01 No, I'm not in a bare carcass.
14:36 Speaker 00 I haven't seen it since, it was so good.
14:37 Speaker 01 So essentially, the beginning of the movie, for the people that are listening, this poor girl, Dani, goes through a horrific phone call, which she finds out that her mum and her dad and her sister have all died in a group suicide. And we then meet her, I don't know how many months later, but she is now dealing with that. But yeah, as I was saying, I had never, I had never seen that level of grief or mental health in, in the way that was being asked of me on, on, on the page. So for that, I've, I've really put myself through it.
15:19 Speaker 01 It was like, but it was also interesting to see what worked and didn't work by the end of the movie. Like, at the beginning, I just imagined hearing the news that one of my siblings had died. And then towards the middle of the shoot, it was like, oh no, I actually needed to imagine the coffins. And then towards the end of the shoot, I actually was going to my whole family's funeral, it was like.
15:37 Speaker 00 In order to do what? To get a better performance out of yourself?
15:40 Speaker 01 I think just the heaviness, I really, I just didn't know. The thing that I was being required to do was something that I'd never, I didn't know how to get there. It wasn't just crying, it was like I needed to sound pain. And anyway, I'd never done anything like that before and I was like, okay, well, here's my opportunity, I need to give this a go. And I would just basically put myself through hell, but I don't do that anymore.
16:07 Speaker 00 Because?
16:08 Speaker 01 Really fucked me up.
16:11 Speaker 00 Talk more about that.
16:12 Speaker 01 Uh, I felt like I, I, well, I manipulated myself for sure. But I really used myself and I think the part of my brain that was trying to separate Danny from Florence, which I also have never had a problem with before, when I left on the plane, so I finished mid-samar, got on a plane and flew to Boston to shoot Little Women and there was a separation of three days. When I was on the plane, I kind of knew where the the field was outside of the Budapest airport. And I remember looking down at the field and I started weeping because I felt like I'd left Danny there. Like I'd left her to figure out how to do the rest of her life.
16:55 Speaker 01 And it's obviously a really, I mean, it's interesting, but like my, my brain was obviously feeling sympathy for myself because I'd abused myself and like really manipulated my own emotions to get a performance. But I also then felt sorry for what I'd done. But yeah, it was very, very strange and I've never ever been worried about my characters. From the day that I finished, I'm always like, yeah, they're good. They'll be fine. And but she was the one that I felt, I, I was like, I felt like I'd left her in that field with the film crew just filming her cry. Yeah.
17:34 Speaker 00 Did you feel like you could have done with a little more support? Sounds like it.
17:38 Speaker 01 Probably, but it was a mad movie for everyone.
17:41 Speaker 00 Was it?
17:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was, it was unbelievably hot. We were working with three different languages in a field. And there was a, you know, a cast of like a hundred and something or other, a hundred and thirty, something like that.
17:54 Speaker 00 I love horror. I've even seen Malevolent.
17:56 Speaker 01 Really?
17:56 Speaker 00 Not for research, I just happened to have seen it.
17:58 Speaker 01 Weird.
18:01 Speaker 00 It's, you're really good in it.
18:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:03 Speaker 00 It's not bad.
18:03 Speaker 01 I didn't watch it.
18:04 Speaker 00 Did you not?
18:05 Speaker 01 No, it's probably the one movie that I wish I never did.
18:11 Speaker 01 No, I think, I think everybody has one of those movies.
18:13 Speaker 00 Why do you wish you hadn't done it?
18:18 Speaker 01 I think it was just a, it was a, it was a movie that I did when I was younger and I needed money. And I was like, well, obviously this is great. And then I got there and it wasn't great.
18:27 Speaker 00 Malevolent is a horror film set in Scotland in the fake kind of psychic supernatural detectives who then stumble upon a real haunting.
18:36 Speaker 01 We can talk about other movies.
18:37 Speaker 00 I'm just putting that out there because if we're going to mention it, we should just fill the people in.
18:40 Speaker 01 I see, I see.
18:42 Speaker 00 But your point was like, it used to be real, but now, so you, so how did, you, you take a different approach now, is that right in your acting?
18:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, I just can't exhaust myself like that because it has a knock on effect. I think it made me sad for like six months after that. And I didn't know why I was depressed. I got back after shooting Little Women and Little Women was such a fun experience because we were just.
19:02 Speaker 00 Which is a terrific film as well.
19:03 Speaker 01 Thank you. And obviously a completely different tone from Midsommar. So I think shelled all of that. And then when I got home for Christmas, I was so depressed. I was like, oh, I think that's from Midsommar and I didn't deal with it and I probably shouldn't do that again.
19:16 Speaker 00 But you were saying, so how do you, if you, if you take a slightly different approach now, which is what I'm hearing, how does it work now? How do you, how do you kind of deliver performances of that caliber without going to a dark place?
19:30 Speaker 01 I think my skills have got better. I think for years I could never cry on cue and it was totally terrifying. The idea of, of getting a role where I would cry was like shit. And then I did King Lear and it literally says in the script, Cordelia cries because obviously King Lear needs to wipe away her tears. And I remember it was like, we were doing rehearsals and Richard, the director was like, and obviously then you'll cry. And I was like, mm hmm.
19:56 Speaker 00 Who was the director? Richard?
19:58 Speaker 01 Richard Eyre.
19:58 Speaker 00 Richard Eyre and Tony Hopkins.
20:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:01 Speaker 00 I call him Tony. I've never met him. Anthony Hopkins.
20:03 Speaker 01 Yes.
20:04 Speaker 00 Played Lear.
20:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:06 Speaker 00 Perfect.
20:06 Speaker 01 Oh, heaven. And it was such a huge opportunity for me and I was the baby and every single person in that room were just legends. And I just remember being really scared about that scene. So then it got to that day and on the first take, I managed to squeeze out one and I was like, and Richard was like, no, I need more.
20:27 Speaker 00 Really?
20:28 Speaker 01 I was like, ah. And I did, just like, I think from the panic and and just suddenly feeling really scared and embarrassed. And I was just like, standing there in front of Anthony Hopkins and and all these incredible actors. And and I just, my body went like, well, you gotta do it. And I did it. And I remember thinking, yes, well, I've passed that fear, unlocked that. So I think every time you do a movie, you're understanding new ways to manage yourself. Like, you're a machine and you need to oil things in certain ways.
20:58 Speaker 00 An emotion machine.
20:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I think every single movie, I've found better ways to do it. So when I did Midsommar, that's why, when I received that role, I had never done anything like that. And I didn't like crying on camera. It just didn't happen. And so, um, that's why I I kind of exposed, I suppose, myself. And I'm not doing that again, but I'm getting better with it.
21:24 Speaker 00 But do you think you're drawn to the darker material?
21:26 Speaker 01 I think I'm, I think I'm drawn to, yeah, maybe, I guess so. I've done loads of it.
21:32 Speaker 00 If you look at a script and it's like, um, it, would you return a script now because it didn't feel like it had something of that?
21:40 Speaker 01 No.
21:40 Speaker 00 What are you looking for then?
21:43 Speaker 01 Okay, the thing that I'm actually, in every script that I read, there has to be, and I I know this now, there has to be a moment in the script where I'm not scared of the horror, but where I'm I'm scared of if I'll be able to do it. So that's the thing that makes me lurch forward. If it's something that I've I've never achieved, never done before, never been shot before, or if if I don't know if I can take myself there, the moment I get like pangs of nerves, I know that I'm probably gonna end up doing it.
22:15 Speaker 00 And what is that likely to be?
22:17 Speaker 01 Could be anything, like with Thunderbolts, I jumped off the second tallest building in the world, and that was like.
22:23 Speaker 00 That was, for you, that was a big part of the appeal of the script.
22:26 Speaker 01 Well, I was, we were gonna do it anyway, but yes, that was amazing to be able to do that. I'd never done anything like that before. And I had to act at the same time, so it was like, well, that's a huge test.
22:36 Speaker 00 I wanted to ask about that, but then I thought, then a little part of me was like, that's very movie junket question.
22:41 Speaker 01 You can ask about it.
22:42 Speaker 00 Can I?
22:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:43 Speaker 00 How many times would you estimate you've been asked about it in the last couple of months?
22:47 Speaker 01 But I don't care though, because it was, that was the point of doing it, like it was.
22:51 Speaker 00 Thirty, forty?
22:52 Speaker 01 Probably more than that.
22:53 Speaker 00 Really?
22:54 Speaker 01 I, um.
22:55 Speaker 00 Won't you go into autopilot? I feel like you'll die behind your eyes.
22:58 Speaker 01 No, that was such an exciting stunt. I don't mind talking about it. It was, but it was so cool to achieve that on a film shoot. So essentially, the movie is about mental health and depression. And this character, Yelena, we find her at the beginning of the script, at the top of a building. And you think for a second, oh shit, is she gonna die right now? And then she jumps off and halfway down the jump, she pulls out the parachute and starts her mission. Then halfway through shooting, it got pulled out because they obviously tried to figure it out and it didn't work. And they were like, no way are we throwing.
23:42 Speaker 00 The mechanics of the stunt.
23:43 Speaker 01 Off a building.
23:44 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
23:45 Speaker 01 And then I found out and I wasn't happy about it. And I got to my emails and I started emailing.
23:52 Speaker 00 Good for you.
23:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:53 Speaker 00 Would that be an insurance issue for them?
23:55 Speaker 01 Hundred percent.
23:55 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
23:56 Speaker 01 They do not wanna throw any actor off a building.
24:01 Speaker 00 Okay, accidents do happen.
24:03 Speaker 01 Or stunts, really.
24:04 Speaker 00 Stunts can go wrong.
24:05 Speaker 01 They can.
24:07 Speaker 01 So I think for me, I just realized how, I, first of all, just the idea of, of starting a movie like that was so powerful and amazing. And I really wanted this movie to feel impressive from the moment you press play. So I fought very hard for that to be in. And of course, they couldn't really. They couldn't really carry it past the line because they can't really be in a position where they're forcing me to jump off a building. So it really had to be something that I needed to pull.
24:37 Speaker 00 Really?
24:38 Speaker 01 Jake obviously wanted it to happen, the director.
24:41 Speaker 00 Jake, what is, what's his?
24:42 Speaker 01 Jake Schreier.
24:43 Speaker 00 Schreier, he seemed like a nice man.
24:44 Speaker 01 He's brilliant, really, really brilliant. Um, and we, we managed to do it. And then when, when it all got past, that it was, we were allowed to do it. Then in actual reality, we had to figure out how to do it and how they were gonna get a structure on the top of that building. And then I obviously needed to start practicing jumping off something so that we could figure out the shape of the fall and what looked the best, what looked most beautiful, what looked most hopeless, I suppose. Um, and Heidi Moneymaker was the, um, stunt coordinator. She actually was Scarlett Johansson, the stunt double for years throughout all of the Marvel movies that Scarlett did. So she coordinated the stunt, well, the stunts on the movie. And, um, we managed to pull it off and it was just absolutely insane.
25:28 Speaker 00 What did you actually have to do in the moment? Like, you, you're dangling, tell, describe them, just the
25:35 Speaker 01 The mechanics of what goes on.
25:36 Speaker 00 Of the specific event.
25:37 Speaker 01 Okay, so, um, we have to do probably like thirty minutes, maybe twenty minutes of checks before I get linked in to go off the edge myself. To get me to the edge, there has to be two men that deliver me to the edge, sit me down, and then everybody needs to leave frame. So I'm the only person that's, uh, well, yeah, I'm like the only person that's on that side of the building. And then the camera needs to be set and then we obviously shoot. Now, the only issue with all of that is that because it was such a tall building, it was constantly getting hit by lightning. And so once it gets hit, once you get a, an alarm about how lightning is coming in,
26:22 Speaker 01 everybody needs to evacuate the roof and get downstairs immediately. That takes about fifteen minutes and everybody needs to unclip their carabiners and go all the way down. And then we wait until the lightning is done. So on the day of shooting, I got clipped in twice. And just as we were about to shoot, they said, lightning strike. So I didn't actually get to jump for about three hours, but got close to jumping. And then got told to go downstairs. So there was so much energy. And by the time that it was actually time for me to get off the edge, I practically lurched myself.
26:59 Speaker 00 You're jumping, and then what are you jumping onto?
27:01 Speaker 01 Nothing.
27:03 Speaker 00 So, but you, so then what happens? So are you in a harness?
27:07 Speaker 01 I'm in a harness.
27:08 Speaker 00 So do you bounce or what happens?
27:09 Speaker 01 So essentially the winch is behind me. So when I step up, the winch is behind me and then the winch moves past me. And as the winch moves past me, you can kind of actually see in the take, there's a tiny tug. Where the winch has pulled me and I obviously don't want to fall off the edge, so I pull myself back. And then the call goes, ready and three, two, one, and I then step off. And the harness, obviously, I free fall for about six, seven metres and then.
27:39 Speaker 00 Over, over just the streets of Kuala Lumpur?
27:42 Speaker 01 I thought there was gonna be a net or something.
27:44 Speaker 00 Like a platform?
27:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:46 Speaker 00 There isn't?
27:47 Speaker 01 No.
27:48 Speaker 00 So it feels like you're just stepping out over the void.
27:52 Speaker 01 Yeah. Well, it feels like I'm throwing myself off a building.
27:56 Speaker 00 That must be terrifying.
27:58 Speaker 01 And you know what's funny is even though I was, I knew all the beats and I knew what was happening and I knew that I'd got myself there. Every single time I jumped off, my brain flashed and thought, fuck, you've done it. You're gonna die. It's done. Every single time.
28:14 Speaker 01 Naturally, it would.
28:15 Speaker 00 How many times did you have to do it?
28:16 Speaker 01 Did it four times on the test day and five times on the shoot day.
28:20 Speaker 00 Wow. Did it get easier?
28:23 Speaker 01 Yes and no. First time was a bit blurry. Yes and no.
28:28 Speaker 00 And then you free fall, free fall for six or seven metres?
28:31 Speaker 01 And then you go.
28:32 Speaker 00 And then it goes.
28:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, and then you go.
28:36 Speaker 01 And you're just hanging there. And I kept on thinking how crazy it was that these little bits of straps were just holding me up.
28:44 Speaker 00 That's wild.
28:45 Speaker 01 Yeah. It's amazing though, life experience. Never gonna, I can never do that again, can I? Like, that's never gonna happen again.
28:51 Speaker 00 You're quite fearless, I think.
28:53 Speaker 01 I think that's what I like in roles.
28:57 Speaker 00 Can we relate it to your health scares growing up?
29:01 Speaker 01 Probably.
29:02 Speaker 00 Shall we talk about that?
29:03 Speaker 01 Sure.
29:05 Speaker 00 So, basically, it sounds from reading about you, you, you know, you grew up in Oxfordshire. What was the name of the town? Or was it outside Oxford?
29:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, Oxford.
29:14 Speaker 00 Oxford, you've heard of that one.
29:17 Speaker 00 And one of the things that, you know, in reading about you, so you had this medical situation, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there was a time when your parents thought you might not lead a full life.
29:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, I have a breathing issue, which has obviously got better as I got older. But when I was younger, essentially, I was born and my breathing tubes were really, really floppy, so I have tracheomalacia. And when I came out, the, the scan of me looked like there was just something flat on my chest. So from the get-go, it, there was something wrong and I sounded like a goose. And my laugh is kind of how I used to sound, so you can hear it. And there were plenty of-
29:58 Speaker 00 When you inhale, it still sounds.
30:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:08 Speaker 01 See, there you go. So I then had many years of ups and downs, and I think that was a bit traumatic for my mum and my dad.
30:19 Speaker 00 Your parents thought you might not make it, basically.
30:22 Speaker 01 I don't think anyone really knew what it was that I had. I think they just knew that I couldn't breathe. And, and it obviously affects your immune system as well, so you become really, really tender to anything else that's around you.
30:31 Speaker 00 Is it genetic?
30:32 Speaker 01 No, it's just a disability in my throat.
30:35 Speaker 00 Really?
30:38 Speaker 01 I don't get as ill as I used to, but even now, as an adult, whenever I do get ill, it's the same fall. So it's, it just gets quite scary quite quickly, so I've-
30:50 Speaker 00 You don't get as ill as often as you used to, do you mean?
30:52 Speaker 01 Yes, sorry.
30:53 Speaker 00 But you, but when you do get ill, you get very ill?
30:55 Speaker 01 It's pretty intense, yeah.
30:57 Speaker 00 And what could bring it on?
31:00 Speaker 01 I usually get ill after working for a long period of time, like when I've been, you know, pushed and I've had a lot of adrenaline and usually after press tours I get quite ill or after I've been shooting a really long movie. And it's just when my body stops and then I'll be around someone that has a cold and it will, it will, you know, quickly get to a chest infection and it has to be stopped really, really quickly. But when I was younger, it would obviously be scary because I was in and out of hospitals. So I'd come back, you know, for Christmas and I'd have pneumonia or whatever it was. And, and it wasn't a very pleasant time. My mum can't really, she doesn't really like talking about it.
31:36 Speaker 00 Really?
31:37 Speaker 01 Well, she does and we, we know what happened, but it's, I think it was just a very scary, sad time.
31:43 Speaker 00 For you as well?
31:44 Speaker 01 I remember, yeah, I remember being in and out of hospital. Yeah, I remember my body hurting.
31:52 Speaker 00 How old would you have been?
31:53 Speaker 01 So we moved to Spain when I was three and I remember before that. So, yeah, in and out of hospital for a few years. And then I'd get lots of tests done to see what it was because they still didn't know what it was. Because it was, for years, it was like, well, she's got severe asthma, but it wasn't quite that. And then when I was 10, I got diagnosed with tracheomalacia.
32:15 Speaker 00 Did you move to Spain for the weather?
32:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, because of that.
32:20 Speaker 00 Because of that? Your parents, the whole family?
32:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:23 Speaker 00 That's a big step, isn't it?
32:26 Speaker 01 Yeah. It was a lovely childhood, though.
32:28 Speaker 00 How long were you there for?
32:29 Speaker 01 Three years, three and a bit years.
32:30 Speaker 00 Whereabouts were you?
32:31 Speaker 01 We were in Soto Grande.
32:33 Speaker 00 Say that again.
32:34 Speaker 01 Soto Grande.
32:35 Speaker 00 Soto Grande. Where is that?
32:37 Speaker 01 That's like half an hour, 20, 20 minutes on the coast from Gibraltar.
32:41 Speaker 00 Nice.
32:42 Speaker 01 It was lovely. It was really, really sweet. And we were kids for a really long time and cycling around on bikes and always in and out of everybody's pools. It was like, it was perfect.
33:18 Speaker 00 How are you doing? How's your energy?
33:20 Speaker 01 I like that you ask people that. It's very sweet.
33:23 Speaker 00 It's 11.15. I think we've got a bit of time.
33:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, we do. I might need a "we" in a bit.
33:29 Speaker 00 Please. Fit, comchevou.
33:31 Speaker 01 Please, we in your seat.
33:32 Speaker 00 Go right ahead. Speaking of, how do you feel about... You're very free in your performances. And I'm just curious about, you know, one of the things that's come up in conversations about sets and set dynamics is intimacy coaches.
33:46 Speaker 01 Coordinators.
33:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, coordinators. Is that the term? And actually, you often hear people... I've heard Michaela Cole say, "Oh, I love my intimacy coordinator." And then one or two people, Gwyneth Paltrow is one, Mikey Madison, apparently, do you know about this? In "Anora," said she didn't want an intimacy coordinator. They're the people who can make sure that the the acting of the intimate scenes goes well, goes smoothly for everyone.
34:11 Speaker 01 And that people are safe.
34:11 Speaker 00 And that they're safe.
34:12 Speaker 01 It's not to get in the way. It's not to confuse. It's not to make things more complicated or make things more awkward. It's simply to make sure that everybody is happy with what they're creating. And also that you're creating things that have meaning to them, I think. I've had good ones and bad ones. I did a lot of my sex scenes before that was even a job.
34:40 Speaker 00 Really?
34:40 Speaker 01 And I think I'm quite... I'm quite confident. I'm quite happy in my skin. And I've always been able to make sure that I'm heard. That being said, even though I know that I believe that and even though I know that I felt that at the time, there are plenty of things that I remember where it was just completely inappropriate to have asked me to do that, to have directed me in that way. But it's... My view is changing about it as well because I'm now having fantastic experiences with intimacy coordinators. However, that being said, I've also had like a shit example where someone just made it so weird and so awkward and really wasn't helpful and kind of was just like wanting to
35:23 Speaker 01 be a part of the set in a way that wasn't helpful. And I think it's like... It's a job that's still figuring itself out, but I will say that I I've been able to understand better meaning um now through working with great ones in sex scenes, finding the story of what it is, what kind of sex is it, how do you touch each other, how long have you been having sex for, all of these things really, really matter when you're trying to build, for example, like a relationship that's been going for ten years. And um it's, I'd never thought of it like that before because sex scenes are so awkward for everybody on set. So much of the time you're like, okay, okay, so then you'd go there and all
36:06 Speaker 01 right, brilliant. And then it's done and you're and you're like, kind of, everybody's just kind of working away to chip away at the scene. And I think when I worked with a fantastic um coordinator, I I was like, oh, this is what I've been missing, understanding the dance of of intimacy as opposed to just shooting a sex scene. So I do think it's like, there are good ones and bad ones, and it's through the good one that I have learnt how effective it can really be.
36:35 Speaker 00 How how kind of um sort of literal is it? Is it sort of like we've agreed these this set of?
36:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, whereas before that was never the case.
36:43 Speaker 00 Really?
36:44 Speaker 01 Before. So now, uh what will happen is the conversations around the sex scenes will happen for for maybe a good few weeks beforehand, which is important. So everybody feels comfortable and and it's not embarrassing saying certain things anymore. Um then they'll usually ask what your comfort level is.
37:02 Speaker 00 Embarrassing saying what kind of things?
37:04 Speaker 01 Well, mo- most of the time, whenever you'd come to a sex scene, you'd come like years ago, you'd come to set and you'd start talking about it then. And then you'd be trying to discuss like what your vision was or what their vision was. And it was all very um only in that moment that you'd be discussing it. So it would feel a bit strange or a bit um.
37:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, awkward. Whereas I think now the communication and talking about it happens for, you know, a good chunk of time beforehand. So everybody feels aware of what's gonna happen, how they're gonna shoot it. You have safe words, you have areas that you don't like being touched, areas that are fine for someone to touch. All of these conversations are actually now happening, whereas before they didn't happen before.
37:50 Speaker 00 Are some bits taped off? Like, would you have coverings over certain parts of you? Would you wear little like slips and things?
37:58 Speaker 01 Yes, and it's their job to be in charge of that. So you can imagine before, there wasn't a specific person on set to be in charge of your coverage. So costume were in charge of it, which they always are, and sometimes they would do a great job. Sometimes they'd just get you one type of thong that might not work on you, might not fit you. So I had experience in the past where we were using wig glue to like stitch me down, because someone wasn't really thinking about it, wasn't really looking after that part of it. But you've now got a dedicated person that is there to make sure that all of your comfort is being thought about.
38:36 Speaker 01 And what's allowed on camera, what's not allowed on camera, all of that is also arranged with your lawyer, because that has to be put into the contract. Yeah, so your lawyer will basically be going through and making sure that, a nudity rider, what you are allowing and what you're not allowing.
38:53 Speaker 00 And it will be spelled out?
38:55 Speaker 01 Yes.
38:55 Speaker 00 To the point where we'll say?
38:56 Speaker 01 Yes.
38:57 Speaker 00 What?
38:57 Speaker 01 Will not show, will show.
38:59 Speaker 00 Nipple?
39:00 Speaker 01 Nipple.
39:01 Speaker 00 Upper breast?
39:01 Speaker 01 Nipple will be on show, will not show vagina, will not show this or whatever it is. It's like, well, and then it will be like, will show rear shot, but only from this scene onwards or only from...
39:19 Speaker 01 But then also, it has to be... Everybody has to be aware of what's being shot. So I wouldn't, for example, go to set having just said, I don't mind my bumping on camera, without knowing what their shot is. Because if their shot is then to actually put the camera here and I'm bending over, that's not something that I'd ever agree to. So everything has to be spelled out. Also, those days are so, everybody has to be so tender because it's very exposing. And the crew are super respectful. Everybody looks away when you undress. Everybody looks away when you dress. The only time that they are focused is when you're doing the scene.
40:00 Speaker 01 Cameramen turn their backs or camerawomen turn their backs. Everybody's very, very, very aware of how gentle the day should feel.
40:11 Speaker 01 And obviously, you have closed sets. So the monitors won't be, if it's a, if it's a good set, the monitors will not be on outside of the room.
40:20 Speaker 00 You know, it's reminded me that, we were talking about your health growing up. And, and, and this sort of relates to boundaries and, you know, the sense of policing what you're willing to do and not willing to, which isn't as easy as you might think it would be, especially if you're trying to be receptive and collaborative. But the fearlessness that came up early and the sense that it might be, in some ways, you know, having been through so much growing up, whether it really is connected to that, or maybe that's just part of your personality. But am I right in thinking, like, my read of you is that you are someone who sort of knows her own mind and is sort of, has a real appetite to challenge herself?
40:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, I do like challenging myself. And I think every single job that I do, I make sure that I'm not comfortable. And I think what I like about the stuff that I shoot is I'm trusting very specific directors to receive that part of me. So it doesn't go without making sure that the director knows that I'm in their hands because I trust them. And if that ever has been broken, it's, it's very sad.
41:28 Speaker 01 And it happens all the time.
41:30 Speaker 00 Does it?
41:30 Speaker 01 Well, no, I mean, I'm saying for lots of actors, it does.
41:33 Speaker 00 Has it happened for you?
41:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:35 Speaker 00 We're gonna talk about that?
41:36 Speaker 01 No.
41:38 Speaker 00 It's a change, like, because everything generates headlines, doesn't it?
41:41 Speaker 01 And these podcasts, they're so fun to talk and then tomorrow.
41:45 Speaker 00 That was actually recording.
41:46 Speaker 01 Well, no, it's more that, you know, people don't, they don't do your journalism. They then go, she said this.
41:53 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, it gets reduced.
41:54 Speaker 01 And then it's like, well, we were having a conversation.
41:58 Speaker 00 How, speaking of, so how are you enjoying superstardom?
42:03 Speaker 01 It's funny to know when it started, really. You never feel like you're there. So it's tricky to know when it was that it actually was changing. I think it started changing for me around Little Women.
42:16 Speaker 00 Twenty nineteen?
42:17 Speaker 01 Twenty nineteen. And then we went into Covid lockdown and the world stopped. And so I sort of had like this weird pause.
42:29 Speaker 01 So I didn't, I think that's probably when I didn't, I didn't realise that it was growing because it was happening while everybody was, you know, not going about normal life as well, but I wasn't really aware of that. And I think that's probably what kind of stunted my awareness of the trajectory of my career. But it's, it's all rewarding. It's because people appreciate what you're doing and appreciate the work that you make and appreciate.
42:57 Speaker 00 There's more to it than that, though, isn't there? Like, actually, because there's this whole ancillary industry that isn't about the work. It's about the fact that you're incredibly famous. And I think we should acknowledge that.
43:07 Speaker 01 Is that what you're asking?
43:08 Speaker 00 Well, I'm asking superstardom, it's double edged, isn't it? Because you will be able to keep working and you can open a big movie and people, millions of people love what you do. And then millions of people are just following it like it's a soap opera.
43:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:21 Speaker 00 And commenting online and maybe making remarks that are hurtful. And I think you have to, that's all part of the same.
43:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is.
43:28 Speaker 00 Thing.
43:29 Speaker 01 I think you just have to be aware that the more and more work that you do, the more you expose yourself, the more that you put out there, the bigger following you'll receive.
43:38 Speaker 01 And it's not really.
43:41 Speaker 01 Something that you have control over. If you if you keep working and you like what you do and you keep making movies, you'll have to do a press tour that will promote you even further. So it's it is tricky in that sense, yeah, because the more and more work that you wanna make or you wanna put out there is meaning that you're closing off your independence or your freedom.
44:02 Speaker 00 Privacy.
44:03 Speaker 01 Privacy.
44:04 Speaker 00 You don't talk about your relationships.
44:06 Speaker 01 Not anymore.
44:07 Speaker 00 Why not?
44:09 Speaker 01 Um, I with relationships and with romance in this world. It doesn't matter how much you speak on it or how little you speak on it, people don't care, they they want a story, they want. Um, they sort of want like a reality show. And so it doesn't really matter how much you say you love someone or how much they make you happy. If they don't like them and it doesn't fit that image that they want of you, they don't care. And I think that hurt me.
44:43 Speaker 00 When you were in a relationship and it was criticised.
44:46 Speaker 01 Yes, and I stood up for it and I stood up for him and I stood up for me just being allowed to do whatever the fuck I wanted to do. And that kind of did actually change a few people's minds. And I actually had a few people in the public eye reach out to me and say, I don't think of it like that, and thank you for saying that.
45:05 Speaker 01 But I think generally, it's um, it's it's just funny, isn't it? And also, since then, I've got bigger, I've I've I've become a different star, people. People will probably want to know a little bit more and and I think you have to just ask yourself, the more you expose, the more you're allowing people to have comment on it. And if they don't know, they can't really make comment on it. Um, that being said, I think I'll always defend people that I love, I will always stand up for them, I'll always make sure that if there needs to be a reset and there needs to be a bit of a smack on the wrist, I will do that because it's not fair that so much of your life gets to have jabs. Um, but I think something that has.
45:50 Speaker 00 Do you mean, do you need to be a reset? Do you mean you're defending someone else or?
45:53 Speaker 01 No, I mean, I mean online, because that's essentially what happened years ago, it uh, you know, it there was a. An insane amount of abuse being hurled at my relationship just because there was an age gap and.
46:06 Speaker 00 Can we say it was Zach Braff?
46:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:08 Speaker 00 Yes.
46:09 Speaker 01 And I.
46:10 Speaker 00 Director and actor.
46:11 Speaker 01 Yes, and it got to the point where it was just really horrible to see someone that you are with receiving that. And it was never at me, it was only at him. And I think it just, I just needed to
46:30 Speaker 01 kind of just check everyone. And so I made a video.
46:34 Speaker 01 And it got a lot of love and lots of people were supportive, which was great. And I think people do online need to be reminded that we're real. I think, I think there's so much of it. We're living in a time with Instagram where it's encouraged to show every single part of your life, which sometimes is slippy because you accidentally do it. And then you go, fuck, I just showed them this and now they're expected to see more. And it's tricky also when you, when, when that's, it's so easy to make stories or it's so easy to share or it's so easy to allow people in. But you have to also remind yourself that you're letting them in. And, and you have to, I guess, like, check yourself and also check the way that people are talking about you
47:19 Speaker 01 or talking at you or talking about your life. And then also you have to ask yourself if it's necessary. So if, if I am exposing that part of my life and people are saying nasty things, like, okay, well, the one thing I can do is stop talking about that part of my life.
47:33 Speaker 00 Hmm.
47:35 Speaker 00 Last, we should, we should shout out We Live in Time, the film you did with Andrew Garfield. It's a tearjerker.
47:43 Speaker 01 Did you like it?
47:43 Speaker 00 I did, yeah, it was very, it was sad, but also.
47:47 Speaker 01 Happy.
47:47 Speaker 00 I'm happy, it was all the, all the emotional moods. I enjoyed the, it's got an, it unfolds an unpredictable chronology. It's not sequential. And so you're trying to figure out where you are in the story and that kind of keeps you, keeps you moving through it.
48:02 Speaker 00 Here's the quote, you can leave this on the table. Oh, shall I say this? I'll say it so we can just not touch it. You said on her relationship, I've learned that love is not supposed to hurt. This is something you said. It's also not meant to be easy, but it's not supposed to hurt.
48:17 Speaker 01 Oh, I did that in a, yeah, an interview magazine.
48:19 Speaker 00 The amount that it hurts is not supposed to show the amount of love there is.
48:25 Speaker 01 Getting the Louis blinks.
48:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think I have done quite a fair bit of um growing, a fair bit of working on myself.
48:41 Speaker 01 I think the further and further away you get from um
48:48 Speaker 01 a relationship that was causing you pain. Obviously, the the love reduces and so you realise just how much pain you were in. And I think that that kind of inspired me, well, I needed to, to be honest. Really kick myself into um
49:06 Speaker 01 looking inwards, figuring out why I thought I deserved that kind of love. Making sure that that doesn't happen again. Um, making sure that I am changing, I'm growing, I'm taking accountability for things. I'm I'm healthier now, I'm a lot happier now.
49:25 Speaker 01 I think when you're such a um when you're such a bubbly person and you fill in a lot of energy for other people. It's definitely, I'm definitely the last person that I look after. And there's an expectancy, I feel, I felt like there was an expectancy that I needed to be good for everybody else, I needed to be upbeat for everybody else and my
49:52 Speaker 01 my issues, my worries, my pains weren't worthy of being spoken about. They weren't necessary to speak about because it would bring people down and we don't want that. And so I think for a long time I didn't expose that part of my life to even my friends.
50:11 Speaker 01 And then, of course, you find yourself in a in a pit or in a mess.
50:15 Speaker 00 Which part? You mean the part that's not well?
50:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, the part that's not well. The part that a relationship is feeding into, the part that that, you know, it's it's all kind of murky and messy and um
50:27 Speaker 01 it's that people pleaser thing where you just try and keep things afloat without anybody else knowing that you're paddling for dear life. And I think um it was an important change that was brought on by.
50:46 Speaker 01 A breakup.
50:49 Speaker 01 Which is where you got that quote from.
50:50 Speaker 00 Do you think, was there anything that helped you have the insight to end the relationship? I'm just wondering if we can make it almost practical. Because I think a lot of people could relate to that. And I think in relationships in general, a lot of them, you're thinking about.
51:06 Speaker 00 Is this, is this a good relationship? Is this a healthy relationship? Am I giving too much?
51:12 Speaker 01 Well, I think that's where the quote kind of comes in is that I think for a while I really thought that the amount that it was hurting was the same amount of love that there was in the relationship. And I think that kind of got weaponized.
51:27 Speaker 00 By you, like you weaponized it against yourself?
51:29 Speaker 01 No.
51:30 Speaker 00 No.
51:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, within the relationship, it was like, oh, this, this hurts so much because we care. It's hurt so much because we love each other so much. And unfortunately, that's just not how
51:43 Speaker 01 love should be treated.
51:46 Speaker 01 And I think the danger with that is when things go wrong or there's little microaggressions of, of tiny versions of whatever abuse it is, whether it's verbal or emotional or manipulative. It kind of gets further and further away from what's normal. And so then you find yourself at the end going, oh shit, a lot of weird stuff is happening. And I've normalized this and it is not normal to feel like this. And it is not normal to be treated like this. And then also your behavior gets normalized as well. You know, you're a part of this weird kind of messy feeling. And it doesn't, at the end of the day, feel good.
52:30 Speaker 01 So I think that's what I was trying to say.
52:32 Speaker 00 A messy, yeah, dynamic. And I think, so what do you, do you think it's the case that people? How do, how does one check in about that? Like, how does, because as you say, it becomes normalized. And then how do you think you take the temperature on what's really going on? Is it by speaking to a counselor or checking in with friends?
52:50 Speaker 01 Probably.
52:51 Speaker 00 Sometimes friends also, they, they sort of encourage.
52:55 Speaker 00 You know, because outsiders are like, you shouldn't be putting up with that. Or and and then they don't really see what's going on necessarily. And you don't know that you're giving the best version of what it's really, it's really complicated.
53:08 Speaker 01 It is. I don't know what you do in that situation. I think obviously communicating is the most important thing. I stopped communicating. That's where it went wrong. I wasn't telling people anything. So no one had a clue.
53:19 Speaker 00 Outside the relationship, you mean?
53:21 Speaker 01 No one knew.
53:22 Speaker 00 So how did you have a breakthrough then?
53:25 Speaker 01 Because I had a breakdown.
53:27 Speaker 00 Really?
53:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:31 Speaker 01 And that's fairly obvious when that happens.
53:37 Speaker 01 And when you're when you're hurting your body, you know, when when you're not sleeping or you're drinking too much or you've got the shits because you're so anxious, like, that's your body screaming at you. I found myself like injury, I would injure myself. I'd be chopping and I'd like chop huge chunks out of my hands. And like, I've just never done that since. My body was just like in full panic mode. It wasn't, I I I was I was injuring myself in order to look after myself. Which is a funny thing of my my body asking for help. But I think it became increasingly obvious that something wasn't right. But it's hindsight is always a it's a funny thing.
54:21 Speaker 00 Are you in a relationship now?
54:22 Speaker 01 I am, yeah.
54:24 Speaker 00 Does it feel good?
54:25 Speaker 01 Very good.
54:26 Speaker 00 Congratulations.
54:27 Speaker 01 Thank you.
54:29 Speaker 00 I let's so.
54:31 Speaker 01 Yes.
54:32 Speaker 00 We look into the future.
54:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
54:33 Speaker 00 Would you direct?
54:35 Speaker 01 I would love to direct. I'd love to direct, but because of situations that I've had in the past where leadership is a bit wonky, I just really want to make sure that I'm I'm ready for it. I really want to make sure that I've done my due diligence. I know how to talk to actors. I know how to hold a set together. And I think because I know how awful it can feel when it goes wrong, I've been very, very apprehensive about starting that journey of. Actually than doing it. I don't, I don't want to um hurt anyone, I don't want to fuck anyone up and I don't want. You're, you're, you are the leader of a ship, you're looking after so many people. It's a huge responsibility. I want to do it properly if I were to do it.
55:18 Speaker 00 Oh, I think we're great. Listen, you've, you've, you've brought so much.
55:21 Speaker 01 Thank you.
55:22 Speaker 00 Into the room.
55:23 Speaker 01 Trying to think, we went, we went to places, I mean.
55:27 Speaker 00 Deep.
55:27 Speaker 01 All just strange.
55:29 Speaker 00 You're gonna need six months to recover from this interview.
55:32 Speaker 01 Just things that I wasn't even like, oh, we're gonna talk about that.
55:35 Speaker 00 Which bit?
55:35 Speaker 01 Like some of the movies.
55:37 Speaker 00 Malevolent?
55:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:38 Speaker 00 If there's one takeaway, it's definitely see Malevolent.
55:41 Speaker 01 No.
55:56 Speaker 00 Okay, welcome back. Thank you for watching. Um, thank you to Florence for joining me. What a powerful conversation, in my humble opinion. And to say again that all the films she's in, she brings maximum performance. Odd phrase, like not all the films are excellent. In fact, she didn't want to talk about Malevolent, which I, you know, I thought was okay. Like, I like horror films, so it sort of scratched the itch. But I can see why she might not think it's her favorite piece of work. But um, what were the other ones? The Wonder is really dark and powerful. Kind of, and kind of brilliantly twisted about a woman
56:36 Speaker 00 exploring an apparently paranormal religious phenomenon in rural Ireland in the 19th century.
56:44 Speaker 00 Lady Macbeth is harrowing, dark and kind of brilliant. And the, I think criminally underrated Don't Worry Darling, which gets 38%. I just looked on Rotten Tomatoes. And, and I just think that's, why is that? I don't know. Snobbery? It's the kind of high concept uh sci-fi that is right in my wheelhouse.
57:12 Speaker 00 Random fact, in preparing my research, so it's about, I think it's fair to say it's sort of about misogyny and about a community where the women are kept in a sort of state of mysterious subjection. Olivia Wilde, the director, has said she was inspired to make it by Jordan Peterson. Like, in other words, the Canadian psychologist who's become a controversial figure on the right. I think something about his profile alarmed her, and that was part of what inspired her to make the film. This is kind of interesting to me because I follow that stuff for my documentary work. In an interview with Interview Magazine, Olivia Wilde said, "We based that character," the character of Chris Pine, the
57:57 Speaker 00 guru, "on this insane man, Jordan Peterson, who's this pseudo-intellectual hero to the incel community." Peterson responded. He said, "Now Pine," that's my, he's got quite a high voice, "Now Pine has a reputation as quite an attractive man, so that could be worse." That's actually a pretty good piece in impression. "I also hope that Chris Pine at least does the sartorial splendor of my very formal public wardrobe justice." I'm getting higher. "As he pillories me in the latest bit of propaganda disseminated by the woke, self-righteous bores and bullies who now dominate Hollywood," I'm getting higher, "and who insist on the production of such tripe." So there, little bit of background
58:40 Speaker 00 info on that. Wow, I've derailed myself. Inuits, the term Eskimo, I think, is not favoured anymore. Inuits, the indigenous people of northern America and Siberia, northern North America. I think I said that sometimes the Inuit people would put older ladies on ice floes or blocks of ice and then push them out to perish at sea.
59:09 Speaker 00 It was cavalierly and maybe glibly thrown out as a factoid. Millie's done some digging. "Gosh, there's so much information in this outro. We've got the Peterson. Hello, I'm Jordan Peterson, bucko." Peterson is famous for saying, "Bucko, I never thought anyone actually would say bucko. I thought that was something you just heard, like, in fiction." "You're wrong about that, bucko. It's woke Hollywood nonsense. You know, with the Steve Coogan one, I was saying I can't do impressions. Turns out I can do so many impressions." That enters the LT impression lexicon alongside, "I'm not going to bend a spoon for you, Louis." Fucking hell, I can't do more than one at a time. "I can't do Peterson straight into Geller.
59:53 Speaker 00 That is too much to ask. I'm not a professional, I'm just a gifted amateur." There's evidence that senicide, great word, the killing of older people, was rare but existed in Inuit communities. Yes, well, not yes to the doing it, but yes to the correctness of me saying it. Mainly what I got from the chat, though, wasn't the senicide. It was Florence's appetite for life and for work. And I was thinking about it afterwards, and, you know, we spoke about her brush with health issues that are still ongoing. And that that seems, this is my amateur psychologist portion, but that that's given her a lust for life, that she attacks life with someone who's got a renewed appreciation
1:00:38 Speaker 00 for how valuable it is and wants to make every day count. So there, I'm being sincere now. And maybe there's a lesson in that. Maybe I could be a bit more like that. "I've got a lust for life." And other things. What does that mean? That's it for this week, apart from the credits. The producer was, other things like, fine wine and chocolate. Where was your mind going? The producer was Millie Chu. The assistant producer was Sally McLennan. The production manager was Francesca Bassett. The audio mix was by Tom Guest. The video mix was by Scott Edwards. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. The executive producer was Aaron Fellows.
1:01:22 Speaker 00 This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.
Previous S6 EP5: David Byrne on clashes in Talking Heads, neurodivergence, and culture wars Next S6 EP7: Marina Abramovic on the relationship between performance and pain, never feeling loved in her childhood, and harmful conspiracies Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated