Pod Insights The Louis Theroux Podcast S5 EP1: Bella Ramsey discusses being a child actor, dealing with critical fandoms and overcoming emetophobia About this episode To kick off the new series, Louis is joined in the studio by Bella Ramsey, rising star of ‘Game of Thrones’ and ‘The Last of Us’. Bella delves into their experiences as a child actor, dealing with critical fandoms online, and their phobia of vomiting.
Warnings: Some strong language and discussions of sensitive themes, including mental health issues and eating disorders. For further information and support, visit https://resources.byspotify.com/
Links/Attachments:
BEAT – UK Eating Disorder Charity
https://www.beateatingdisorders.org.uk/get-information-and-support/get-help-for-myself/i-need-support-now/helplines/
TV Show: ‘Game of Thrones’ (2011-2019) - HBO
https://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones
TV Show: ‘The Last of Us’ (2023 – Present) - HBO
https://www.hbo.com/series/urn:hbo:series:GYyofRQHeuJ6fiQEAAAEy
TV Show: ‘The Worst Witch’ (2017 - 2020) - CBBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b09m8lyz/the-worst-witch
Video Game: ‘The Last of Us’ (2013) - Sony PlayStation
https://www.playstation.com/en-us/the-last-of-us/
TV Show: ‘Time’ (2021-2023) - BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p09fs2qh/time?seriesId=p09fs2qh-structural-2-p0g5k19n
TV Show: ‘Cracker’ (1993-1996) - ITV
https://www.itv.com/watch/cracker/1a1918
TV Show: ‘Quiet on Set: The Dark Side of Kids TV’ (2024) - Investigation Discovery
https://www.discoveryplus.com/gb/show/quiet-on-setthe-dark-side-of-kids-tv
TV Show: ‘Chernobyl’ (2019) - HBO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9APLXM9Ei8
EmetAction – UK Emetophobia Charity
https://emetaction.org/
The Thrive Programme
https://www.thriveprogramme.org/
Book: Emetophobia-Free, Rob Kelly (2014)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=thrive+programme+emetophobia&crid=2Q58R6N2PS6MW&sprefix=thrive+programme+emetophobia%2Caps%2C114&ref=nb_sb_noss_1
Louis Theroux: Talking to Anorexia (2017) - BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09d5nk2/louis-theroux-talking-to-anorexia
Book: The Lord of the Rings, J. R. R. Tolkien (1954)
Credits:
Producer: Millie Chu
Assistant Producer: Maisie Williams
Production Manager: Francesca Bassett
Music: Miguel D’Oliveira
Audio Mixer: Tom Guest
Video Mixer: Scott Edwards
Shownotes compiled by Immie Webb
Executive Producer: Arron Fellows
A Mindhouse Production for Spotify
www.mindhouse.co.uk
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript 12,226 words · 2 speakers
0:00 Speaker 00 1212, hello there, are you there? Is this thing on? Can you hear me?
0:07 Speaker 00 Hello, Louis Theroux here, and welcome back to my podcast, The Louis Theroux Podcast. And for the first episode of the series, I'm delighted to be joined by none other than the star of Game of Thrones and The Last of Us, Bella Ramsey.
0:27 Speaker 00 Bella's breakout role was at age 11 as Lyanna Mormont in the HBO fantasy phenomenon Game of Thrones, maybe you've heard of it. After a critically and culturally acclaimed run in the show, Bella went on to feature in CBBC's adaptation of The Worst Witch. Less culturally acclaimed, but valid and important, but left at the end of the third series due to struggles with mental health and an eating disorder. In 2021, Bella was cast as the lead role in HBO's post-apocalyptic drama series The Last of Us. It's on at the moment, on now? Is it on now? In the UK, HBO in America, check your local listings, but here's the point.
1:09 Speaker 00 It's an excellent series and as I record this, I'm two episodes in. At the time of the interview, I was one episode in and I didn't know, spoiler alert, that one of the main characters got killed. Shall I go further? Yes, Pedro, Pedro Pascal is killed. I've ruined it for you. But there we are, which is exciting in a way because it means now Ellie is carrying the series. And who knows where it will go next? Deal with it.
1:40 Speaker 00 Warning: There is strong language in the episode, as well as discussions around mental health and eating disorders. Oh, and if you're at all squeamish about vomit, there's a section later on in the conversation that you might want to brace yourself for. A lot of chat about vom.
1:58 Speaker 00 So here we go.
2:18 Speaker 00 Thanks for doing this.
2:20 Speaker 01 It's okay. Thanks for having me. How cool.
2:23 Speaker 00 So here's my embarrassing confession, which is that I hadn't seen The Last of Us, and my family had all watched it. I'm going straight in on The Last of Us, because for many people that will be chiefly what they know you for. And so I had the pleasure of watching it in the last couple of weeks, kind of binging it, and realising why people love it so much and what a special piece of work it is.
2:48 Speaker 01 Did you watch the first season?
2:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, the first season. And of the second season, which has just been released, or is about to be released, they let me watch the first episode.
2:56 Speaker 01 Okay, cool.
2:57 Speaker 00 That's all I got to see.
2:58 Speaker 01 Nice.
2:59 Speaker 00 Many people, as I said, will know it, will have watched it. Some won't, some won't, and I don't want them to feel left out. So we should do the heavy lifting of explaining what it is for people.
3:10 Speaker 01 It's... Well, I'm not very good at explaining things, but it's sort of set in a post-apocalyptic America. I feel like I'm now going back to my season one press days where I had to do this.
3:25 Speaker 00 It's good, it's all in there. The muscle memory is fresh.
3:28 Speaker 01 Exactly. Set in a post-apocalyptic America, there's a smuggler guy called Joel, who's basically tasked with smuggling a kid, Ellie, who's me, across America to get to the Fireflies, which are like a militia group who are basically going to make a cure out of Ellie because she's immune to this virus.
3:52 Speaker 00 It's not a normal pandemic, or it's a fungal infection.
3:57 Speaker 01 It is.
3:58 Speaker 00 Which sounds almost anticlimactic when you put it like that. You think of a fungus or a mould, but actually what it allows them to do, first of all, it roots it in something quasi-plausible.
4:11 Speaker 01 Yes.
4:11 Speaker 00 Because it's based on... Go on, you take it, you take it from there.
4:15 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, it's not just like a verruca fungus, it's like fungus fungus.
4:19 Speaker 00 Ants, talk about the ants.
4:20 Speaker 01 Oh, that, oh.
4:21 Speaker 00 Do you know about those?
4:22 Speaker 01 Yes, so it's like a real thing that happens, cordyceps. In the actual real world infects the minds of like, yeah, ants and then they basically become like the infected in the show.
4:34 Speaker 00 Become like zombies.
4:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're completely controlled by this fungus who's, the goal of the fungus is to like infect the rest of the colony and like take over the colony slash the world.
4:44 Speaker 00 I didn't realise it was based on a video game.
4:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:47 Speaker 00 And, and not only a video game, but like a hugely successful one that came out, I guess, um, ten or so years ago.
4:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:54 Speaker 00 On the Sony Playstation, um, which I think like me, you hadn't even played when you came to work on the show.
5:00 Speaker 01 No.
5:01 Speaker 00 Uh, Neil Druckmann, one of the co-writers of the, of, of the TV series, had written the video game, is that right?
5:07 Speaker 01 Yes.
5:08 Speaker 00 Inspired by, um, finding out about the ants and the cordyceps.
5:12 Speaker 01 Mad, yeah.
5:13 Speaker 00 Did you know that?
5:14 Speaker 01 I didn't know that was what it was inspired by, but that makes a lot of sense.
5:16 Speaker 00 He found out about that and he was thinking about it and thought, this is a great premise for a zombie type, um, apocalyptic scenario.
5:23 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
5:24 Speaker 00 Did it for the video game.
5:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:26 Speaker 00 And then, uh, then it went on to become the basis for the TV show.
5:29 Speaker 01 Yes.
5:30 Speaker 00 Um, it's, but it's rather a, um, emotional drama, right? Uh, cause that sounds so basic, is that making sense?
5:37 Speaker 01 Yes, I think that's what's, that was always in the publicity for it for season one and now for season two, the idea of it, this post-apocalyptic world being the backdrop. It's all about like the relationships, the show wouldn't be the show that it is, like it wouldn't be entertaining really if it wasn't for the like really complicated relationships between the, oh, like Joel and Ellie specifically, but.
5:59 Speaker 00 Joel and Ellie, Joel is the, what did you call him, a smuggler?
6:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, but that's just one of his identities, he's got many, I'm sure he's a dad.
6:07 Speaker 00 In his old life, he was a building contractor.
6:09 Speaker 01 He was a contractor, yeah, contractor, smuggler.
6:11 Speaker 00 It's not a spoiler to say that his, in the first episode, his daughter, well, to say something happens to her, so he's, we arrive for most of the action at a point where he's emotionally bereft, he's an empty husk of a man trying to survive, he's, he's very far from being an idealist.
6:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:31 Speaker 00 He's a survivor.
6:32 Speaker 01 Very much so.
6:34 Speaker 00 And then we follow the, the plot of the, of his growing relationship, you know, paternal relationship with, with Ellie.
6:40 Speaker 01 With Ellie, and Ellie's never had a family, like doesn't have a mum, doesn't have a dad, as far as she knows, um. So for her, Joel is the first person who's ever shown her. Maybe Marlene, who's sort of her caretaker in the Boston Q Z.
6:59 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
7:00 Speaker 01 Where she's sort of is before.
7:02 Speaker 00 Quarantine zone.
7:02 Speaker 01 Quarantine zone.
7:03 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
7:03 Speaker 01 I remember when I got the script, I was like, Q Z, because I didn't.
7:07 Speaker 00 Right, you would do.
7:07 Speaker 01 So British.
7:08 Speaker 00 Being British. I didn't know you were British. That was the other part.
7:11 Speaker 01 Really? Until when?
7:13 Speaker 00 Until someone said you were.
7:14 Speaker 01 Whoa.
7:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
7:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, very British.
7:16 Speaker 00 Your accent is great.
7:18 Speaker 01 Thanks.
7:19 Speaker 00 Was that hard work?
7:21 Speaker 01 It was. I I really like learning and I enjoyed getting to learn American accent. But it was, I got so frustrated with myself, like on set sometimes. I really flipped between British and American a lot by accident when I'm. Yeah, when I'm working and I keep, I make it a real point now, especially this season, to be like British when I'm not.
7:45 Speaker 01 Between takes.
7:45 Speaker 00 Really?
7:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, because I'm a different person in a British accent than I am in an American accent.
7:50 Speaker 00 That's interesting.
7:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, because also I learnt American through the character of Ellie and through her dialogue and through that. So I'm much more Ellie-like when I'm like having an American accent, like I swear more and I'm a bit more like.
8:04 Speaker 00 Yeah.
8:05 Speaker 01 My emotions are closer to the surface when I'm being American than when I'm being British and all like internal and shy.
8:12 Speaker 00 That's interesting. So on set during the first season, you might occasionally be American?
8:18 Speaker 01 I mean, yeah, I started out trying to be American the whole time because.
8:23 Speaker 00 Some actors do that, right?
8:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, but then I quickly realised that I didn't feel the connections that I was then making with people on set felt a little bit ingenuine because. I'm like, I'm not American and the fact that I was had this American accent, it was sort of my American version of myself. I didn't like that I was making these connections with people, but it wasn't fully. Me in like my, yeah, at my course. So then I started to be British in between and then tried to maintain that. But it's hard. The amount of times I'll like slip into American and then I'll.
8:54 Speaker 00 Can you slip into American quite easily?
8:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:57 Speaker 00 This is a leading question.
8:59 Speaker 01 It's harder when I'm around like with you now. It's harder around British people. We can try.
9:04 Speaker 00 What if I, I have a different personality in American as well because I become a little bit mannered, ever so slightly camp. I'm gonna try and dial that down.
9:16 Speaker 01 Okay.
9:16 Speaker 00 Welcome Bella Ramsey to the Louis Theroux podcast. How are you doing?
9:23 Speaker 01 I'm pretty good. You know, this is not my American personality. I'm going a little bit overboard.
9:30 Speaker 00 Overboard.
9:31 Speaker 01 Overboard and this.
9:32 Speaker 00 Oh my God, you're in a publicity cycle. You must be busy. Are you very busy?
9:36 Speaker 01 Can you believe it? I am so busy. It's sickening.
9:40 Speaker 00 We're doing, who, we're not quite being, I think I've taken you down the wrong path. Yeah. I'll try and, let's try again.
9:47 Speaker 01 Okay. Hello, Louis.
9:49 Speaker 00 They talk about, I guess the question would be, how close to the real Bella is Ellie? Is Ellie in you in some way?
10:00 Speaker 01 Very good question. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's so, this is, oh, this is so weird. Yeah, Ellie is definitely in me. The way that you're looking at me right now is very like American reporter where you're just like looking with these like, this is eyes that are like boring into my soul.
10:18 Speaker 00 I don't think my eyes, I wasn't doing American with my eyes.
10:21 Speaker 01 You were. It was happening.
10:25 Speaker 00 You can give a serious answer to that, people. I feel like the American thing was just a dog leg.
10:30 Speaker 01 Yeah. Is Ellie like me? Yeah, in some way. Like Ellie, I think Ellie is who I imagine I am in my head. Like she's more, yeah, having emotions that close to the surface is something that I sort of.
10:49 Speaker 01 Like dream about, I'm so measured with like when I'm talking and like my actions and what I do like I've. I've sort of seen the consequences of my actions before I do them, so then I change my actions accordingly.
11:02 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
11:02 Speaker 01 I don't know, and which is a good thing, but it can also feels like a bit of a curse sometimes because I don't have as much.
11:09 Speaker 00 You overthink, is that what you're saying?
11:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it's not even overthinking, it's more that I like. I know the consequences of my actions, so like I, so I've never been drunk, for example.
11:20 Speaker 00 In your life?
11:21 Speaker 01 In my life, because I don't wanna.
11:22 Speaker 00 Twenty one years old.
11:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:24 Speaker 00 Have you, have you drunk at all? Have you had a few drinks?
11:27 Speaker 01 I recently, yeah, I've maybe felt tipsy, but that's the like, that's it. I've never been drunk because I've thought about the next day, like I, I don't wanna feel shit the next day. I wanna remember what happened and I. I just don't wanna feel horrible, I'm like, I don't need to drink so much that I feel horrible the next day, like I can have a good time without doing that, without drinking anything at all, so I just won't.
11:47 Speaker 00 That's great if you can do that.
11:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I think that's.
11:50 Speaker 00 Wish I could do that.
11:52 Speaker 01 I think you could.
11:53 Speaker 00 I probably could, maybe I could.
11:54 Speaker 01 I think you could, but Ellie is much more, she doesn't like think before she speaks and she doesn't think before she.
12:01 Speaker 00 She's impulsive?
12:02 Speaker 01 She's impulsive.
12:03 Speaker 00 She has violent tendencies?
12:05 Speaker 01 Yes, for sure.
12:07 Speaker 00 She's angry.
12:08 Speaker 01 She's very angry and I think that that's, anger is an emotion to me that's quite inward. I don't express any anger that I have, I think I don't have very much in the first place, then when I do have it, like I don't. Express it really, it's just all sort of happens inside and that. The ability of like someone like Ellie where she doesn't have that ability, like it does just come out. I don't know, I think that's, I kind of love that about her and I love getting to play that. And I think that when I am working and like playing Ellie for all of this time, I think it does give me sort of access to my, to emotions like that a bit more, which is good.
12:51 Speaker 01 Like, it's important, I think, that you experience anger and can express it.
12:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, for sure.
12:57 Speaker 01 In safe ways and good ways, but.
12:58 Speaker 00 Do you mean sometimes Ellie and the act of playing Ellie could give you practice in expressing things emotionally and even open up doors inside you?
13:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think so. There is sort of like a enmeshment, merging thing that happens, where I can be a bit more blunt or a bit more, like when I'm on set and working, or a bit more like, I guess cheeky.
13:25 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
13:25 Speaker 01 In a fun way, because Ellie, it's like, I mean, if I was playing someone who was very internal and shy and didn't, I probably wouldn't do that. I don't know. I think there is definitely a bit of a merging thing that happens.
13:37 Speaker 00 I was watching the Jimmy McGovern drama you did called Time.
13:41 Speaker 01 Yes.
13:41 Speaker 00 Last night, which is on BBC iPlayer, if you're in the UK.
13:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:46 Speaker 00 And, and you play a young heroin addict.
13:48 Speaker 01 I do.
13:49 Speaker 00 And who's gone to prison. And you do some good anger in that.
13:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's a bit of work that I'm the proudest of, for sure.
13:57 Speaker 00 Right, I could see that. It was really good.
13:59 Speaker 01 Thanks.
14:00 Speaker 00 Why are you proudest of it, out of interest?
14:02 Speaker 01 Because it was the one, that was the first job I ever did where I didn't do a self-tape for it. And that was a weird experience for me, of them just sending this script and wanting me to do it. I'm like, well, how, how is that even possible? And I had no experience of drug use. I couldn't believe that they thought that I could do it. And I didn't know whether, I didn't know whether I could do it.
14:27 Speaker 00 Who's they in the sentence? Is Jimmy McGovern, for people who don't know, Jimmy McGovern is a UK TV legend.
14:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
14:34 Speaker 00 He's been working for decades, probably best known for Cracker, the series he did with Robbie Coltrane. That was my little bit of exposition.
14:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, that was.
14:42 Speaker 00 Well, I feel like I've taken us off track now. What were you even talking about?
14:45 Speaker 01 Jimmy.
14:46 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah, who's they was the question.
14:47 Speaker 01 I guess, um, the producers or casting director.
14:51 Speaker 00 Yeah, right. So not Jimmy McGovern, because it was directed by someone else again.
14:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, by Andrea Harkin.
14:55 Speaker 00 Okay.
14:57 Speaker 01 But yeah, it was quite, I was very intimidated by it and didn't know whether I could do it literally until we did the first take, till action was called for the first time and then cut and I was like, oh phew, it's gonna be okay. I was convinced this was gonna be the one where I realised I actually couldn't.
15:13 Speaker 00 You were gonna be found out.
15:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it was the most amazing experience and it's amazing how living as someone for a bit like on set who's completely different from you, like it gave me such insights into because there were very real people like Kelsey in the world, like all of the characters in that show. And there's so much of other people's experience that we like, you can't possibly understand until, like, and not to say that I understand the experience of being a heroin addict, because I literally just played a character for a few months, but it, the, the levels of empathy, I think that you get from playing someone like that and doing the research
15:55 Speaker 01 of like being in the skin for a bit, I just like understand now, I think, the sort of nuance of that.
16:02 Speaker 00 Did you do research, did you, did you do research for something for a role like that? I mean, it'd be, maybe it would be too weird, like to spend time among people with heroin addiction.
16:14 Speaker 01 I went into a prison in Liverpool and met people who had cocaine and alcohol use.
16:25 Speaker 00 Just to get the vibe?
16:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:27 Speaker 00 To speak to people?
16:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, I spoke to a lady who was actually about to be released and she was just describing the feeling of addiction. The sort of whole body experience of that, like every cell in your body like needs the substance, needs the next hit, like it's, it's all you can think about, it's like your whole body needs it. So that was really helpful for me, talking to her about that and sort of hearing a lived experience. And then, so I did, I met her and went into that prison and then the other bit of research that I did was I literally watched a YouTube video of someone on heroin and then went to sleep feeling like I was a heroin addict and then
17:04 Speaker 01 that was all like the research that I did. It's such a weird thing of, I can like, even with TV shows, I don't really watch much film and TV because I get so. I don't know, I almost feel like I've become the characters that I'm watching.
17:17 Speaker 00 Interesting.
17:19 Speaker 01 Anyway.
17:19 Speaker 00 I feel I could go deeper into that, but I hear ten million people saying in my head, talk more about Pedro Pascal.
17:29 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
17:30 Speaker 00 I think you get that quite a lot, don't you?
17:32 Speaker 01 A lot, yeah. I actually didn't realise how much until there was one time I was watching a video interview that I did on like a red carpet or something. I don't really know why I was watching it, but then I looked at the comments and it was like, there wasn't a single question about Bella, they were all about Pedro.
17:48 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
17:48 Speaker 01 I didn't realise at the time and then I like watched it back, I was like, oh yeah, that's so weird, I do get.
17:53 Speaker 00 I wasn't gonna ask just about Pedro, I was gonna ask about your relationship, because what people love is the chemistry you have on screen.
17:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
18:00 Speaker 00 But it is kind of a double act, right?
18:02 Speaker 01 Yes.
18:03 Speaker 00 Both in terms of film, but also the meta-narrative around the production. People are very invested in the idea of you being friends.
18:13 Speaker 01 Yes, I mean, I adore him and I can see why, like from working with him and spending time with him for like two years now, basically. Everyone who meets him is like really taken with him, because he's so himself.
18:31 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
18:32 Speaker 01 And so generous and excitable. He's, yeah, he's a bit, he's a bit like a puppy, like in a nearly fifty year old human being.
18:44 Speaker 00 He, um, should we talk about, you know, because there's another, the other part of this, we were talking about the meta-narrative around, around The Last of Us and then Game of Thrones.
18:56 Speaker 01 Mm.
18:56 Speaker 00 That's a whole other thing. Okay, so I haven't, I've never really watched it.
18:59 Speaker 01 Okay.
19:00 Speaker 00 I almost feel a bit special because of that. Actually, truthfully, I watched the first two episodes of Game of Thrones and I was like, this is fucking ridiculous. We shall go wenching in the morrow. Sir, it is three moons since we did feasts upon the tide of even song. When we did quest upon the battle of Yor, and I was like, this is fu-
19:19 Speaker 01 Fair enough.
19:19 Speaker 00 No offence.
19:20 Speaker 01 And no offence taken.
19:21 Speaker 00 And then, and then everyone's like, oh my god, Game of Thrones is so- So amazing. And I was like, really, wenching upon the morrow, stop it. And then more and more people said they loved it. And then it was the biggest, literally the biggest show in the world.
19:32 Speaker 01 That's crazy. I haven't seen it all either.
19:34 Speaker 00 Haven't you?
19:35 Speaker 01 No, I need to.
19:36 Speaker 00 Have you seen the bits you were in?
19:37 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I've seen a lot of six, seven and eight. But the, but I didn't have a clue what was going on because I hadn't seen any of the other stuff.
19:44 Speaker 00 You played?
19:45 Speaker 01 Lyanna Mormont.
19:47 Speaker 00 Lyanna Mormont. The fa- a favourite character, I'm told.
19:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, apparently so.
19:52 Speaker 00 A fan favourite, maybe the favourite, even though you didn't have that many lines?
19:56 Speaker 01 No, I was in, um, like two scenes and I actually don't remember how many. But I was supposed to just be in one scene of season six. I just, I was 11, I'd never, it's my first ever job. I'd never dreamed of being an actor. I didn't have any expectations. No one in my family's in the industry. I had no reference point for what being on set was gonna be like. I had not a clue what I was doing. I, it was all just so like new and exciting and amazing to me. I just had the best time. I felt very instantly like at home and comfortable and set on, in a way that I'd never felt anywhere in my life before. Like I've, I did so many clubs and groups and I was a really busy kid. I did everything.
20:38 Speaker 00 Growing up in, in the north of England, near Nottingham?
20:41 Speaker 01 Yes, in the East Midlands.
20:44 Speaker 00 Can we be more specific?
20:45 Speaker 01 Um, I was born in Nottingham, grew up in Leicestershire.
20:49 Speaker 00 In a village?
20:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:51 Speaker 00 Do we say the name of the village?
20:52 Speaker 01 No.
20:53 Speaker 00 Because you want your parents to have privacy?
20:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, and also.
20:57 Speaker 00 The village would be inundated with, with millions of people paying homage, doing pilgrimages. It would be overrun.
21:04 Speaker 01 It really would.
21:05 Speaker 00 It'd be like lords, people would be coming and.
21:09 Speaker 01 And bowing at the door.
21:10 Speaker 00 Bowing at the door, buying trinkets.
21:12 Speaker 01 Exactly. Um, yeah, no. I've managed to really maintain a lot of privacy. Like my life is very much the same as it was.
21:23 Speaker 00 But you don't live up there anymore?
21:24 Speaker 01 I did until October and I moved down to London. But I still go home and I wanna be able to like go home and then.
21:29 Speaker 00 I get it. I was being facetious. I, I totally respect your right to.
21:33 Speaker 01 Thank you.
21:33 Speaker 00 To keep a veil over aspects of your life.
21:36 Speaker 01 Thanks.
21:37 Speaker 00 Can we say what your parents do for a living?
21:40 Speaker 01 Hmm, nah, I don't think so.
21:42 Speaker 00 That was a clue.
21:43 Speaker 01 Hmm.
21:44 Speaker 00 They tune instruments.
21:48 Speaker 00 That's interesting because actually it doesn't come up on the Wikipedia page or any of the profiles.
21:53 Speaker 01 It doesn't. No, I think it's nice, like, not.
21:56 Speaker 00 My whole family is very musical and creative. My parents met through music.
22:00 Speaker 01 Oh, there you go. You've got it.
22:03 Speaker 00 But we were so far removed from the film and TV industry, we didn't know anyone in it.
22:07 Speaker 01 When did I say that? I mean, it's all true, yeah. They did meet through music. We are quite a musical family.
22:12 Speaker 00 It'd be weird if it wasn't true, given that you said it.
22:17 Speaker 00 But so your parents, whatever they were doing, they weren't stage parents?
22:22 Speaker 01 No, not at all.
22:25 Speaker 00 This brings us to the question of children in the industry.
22:29 Speaker 01 Hmm, yeah.
22:30 Speaker 00 That brought a wry smile to your lips.
22:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's quite an interesting topic.
22:36 Speaker 00 It's a quite a hot topic.
22:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:38 Speaker 00 What I get from you is that you've had a terrific experience. Don't allow me to speak for you, but if anything, some of your happiest times have been on set.
22:48 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
22:49 Speaker 00 You sort of found yourself. You fitted in in a way that maybe you didn't fit in, perhaps in school, in civilian life, if you like.
22:58 Speaker 01 Yes.
22:59 Speaker 00 Nevertheless, many people don't find that, and it's children. I interviewed Jeanette McCurdy, who is in Nickelodeon films. She was talking about how awful. She was pushed by her mum, which is a completely different scenario.
23:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
23:10 Speaker 00 And there's this series that was on last year, Quiet on Set.
23:14 Speaker 01 Oh, I saw that, yeah.
23:15 Speaker 00 Did you?
23:16 Speaker 01 I didn't see it, but I saw lots of clips of it.
23:17 Speaker 00 Wait, about child actors having horrific experiences doing Nickelodeon TV shows?
23:24 Speaker 01 Yes.
23:25 Speaker 00 Why do you think you had a good experience? And to what extent have there ever been times where you thought, oh, I can see how this might be otherwise?
23:33 Speaker 01 I think because I wasn't pushed into the industry in any way. There was no outside pressure from my parents, from anyone around me. It was very much led by me. But it wasn't even led by me. It just sort of happened to me by accident, and then I loved it and wanted to carry on.
23:51 Speaker 01 My mum was always so great with me, like on set. She came with me everywhere. I was pretty anxious, like, as a youngster, but she was, yeah, she was great. What did you ask? Why was it a good experience?
24:08 Speaker 00 And could you see how it might not be? Jeanette McCurdy, for context, Jeanette McCurdy said, oh, I don't even think child actors should be allowed. Or at least she tabled that as a possible idea.
24:19 Speaker 01 I understand how it could not be, yes. I think in the UK, I'm glad that it sort of, I was in the UK during film.
24:29 Speaker 00 Because Game of Thrones was filming in Northern Ireland.
24:31 Speaker 01 Northern Ireland, yeah. I think that America's sort of a different beast in a lot of ways. I've, I've never worked over there, filmed in the US.
24:41 Speaker 00 Right, because Last of Us was Canada.
24:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:43 Speaker 00 But on American sets.
24:45 Speaker 01 It's just a different vibe. I wish I had a better way to describe it, but it just feels.
24:54 Speaker 01 British sets feel a lot more safe and a lot kinder in my experience. I mean, I've not really worked in America, just been on a couple of the sets and not really had it, not really enjoyed it. I think that I can definitely see how kids can be.
25:11 Speaker 01 One, if they, if they don't want to be there, I don't think they should be there.
25:14 Speaker 00 Of course.
25:14 Speaker 01 And I've seen that.
25:16 Speaker 00 Really?
25:16 Speaker 01 Happen, yeah, I've seen kids that like, don't, absolutely like, don't want to be there and they're there because their parents want them to be there, which is such a problem. Also, kids who have, who are in things who, who should have more protection around them, like if they've had a difficult upbringing or there isn't a lot of protection for the kids sometimes. I think it's got a lot better. I also had a really good experience, I think, because I was working on like, but maybe, this is just for me, like on shows with adults.
25:47 Speaker 01 I've always felt more comfortable in like adults, I was friends with all the teachers at school rather than like the kids my age. That's always been much more comfortable to me, so. I was never intimidated by the adults around me, I felt that we were equals, always. And so there's, I've never felt like a weird power dynamic thing, which I think is often the case for kids. They are so vulnerable in so many cases. I never felt vulnerable in those ways, I think, because I.
26:18 Speaker 01 Saw myself very like naturally as equal to the people around me.
26:23 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
26:24 Speaker 01 And so therefore was like treated as such mostly when I wasn't, it was very annoying, but.
26:29 Speaker 00 I think you said that the year that you made season one of The Last of Us was maybe one of the happiest.
26:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:35 Speaker 00 Of your life.
26:36 Speaker 01 It's actually the best year of my life. It's wonderful, challenging and hard work, but I had the best time.
26:42 Speaker 00 Go on.
26:43 Speaker 01 I mean, I was seventeen, turned eighteen, the first time in N- North America. It was such an escape from like my normal quote unquote life. And I did so much like figuring out of myself and discovering of myself and just um. Felt so like held, I think, by the whole experience and had so much fun and working with Pedro every day and having that dynamic. And and Craig Maisen, the creator of the show and all of the cast and crew, it just felt like a really positive. And like exciting and like, yeah, brilliant experience. I loved it.
27:26 Speaker 00 We should shout out Craig Maisen. We mentioned Neil Druckmann already. Neil Druckmann wrote the video game. And then co-wrote the the TV series, I guess, with Craig Maisen, who'd come off Chern- Chernobyl. The amazing, he'd created that amazing drama that won a ton of awards.
27:41 Speaker 01 Yes.
27:42 Speaker 00 Which is also remind me, reminded me that one of the great things about Last of Us as well. Circling back to that is is the fact that because they're fungus zombies, um, they've got mushrooms, beautiful. Like the kinds of mushrooms you see on trees, growing out of their heads.
27:56 Speaker 01 I think they're beautiful and that's what's so scary about it, I think, is that there's these like really. And also it's kind of their, their whole goal in their existence is very pure and kind of beautiful in a way. It's to expand their colony and like, it's all, it's like pure instinct.
28:14 Speaker 00 Hmm.
28:15 Speaker 01 And they're not villains, like they don't know what's.
28:19 Speaker 00 They're plant life.
28:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. They don't know what's going on. They're just like fulfilling their kind of instincts and.
28:26 Speaker 00 They call them the infected.
28:27 Speaker 01 The infected.
28:29 Speaker 00 Why don't they call them fungos?
28:31 Speaker 01 I don't know, should take that to the season three writers' room, no?
28:35 Speaker 00 Oh my god, three fungos are in the building. I just thought that sounded quite good.
28:39 Speaker 01 Or fun guys. We've got three fun guys out here.
28:42 Speaker 00 Guys, that would be ambiguous. That would set up a possible plot where it's like, I thought you said fun guys.
28:49 Speaker 01 And that was a whole different show.
28:50 Speaker 00 And then suddenly they're in a firefight.
28:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:19 Speaker 00 Okay, so we're gonna touch this live wire. You ready?
29:28 Speaker 00 You know, it's striking that you, because of the work you do, and specifically Game of Thrones and Last of Us, you're doing things with huge fanbases, often beloved by teenagers, many of them boys, I'm assuming, who feel super invested. There's a fan culture that is, in some respects, wonderful. They're super excited to be consumers of the product, right? They're very loyal, but sometimes they're over invested.
30:01 Speaker 01 Yep.
30:02 Speaker 00 And I can imagine that for you, as someone who isn't coming from the fan culture, you're a jobbing actor who, especially when you're 11, you go on Game of Thrones. That was, I think, a good experience. And everyone was like, the fans loved it. But when you, then you come into The Last of Us and there's some pushback, right?
30:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:18 Speaker 00 Some fans, they're like, they've got issues with the casting.
30:23 Speaker 01 Still now.
30:25 Speaker 00 Still now?
30:25 Speaker 01 There's still like freaking headlines being like Bella Ram is the worst miscast of all time. Like, it's so funny.
30:31 Speaker 00 Because you didn't look like, I mean, they'd got, they'd played Ellie as an on-screen character, and then you come along, and then obviously Neil and Craig love you, and they're like, man, they've said amazing things about, Neil Druckmann said when he saw Bella's audition tape for the film, I didn't see Bella acting like Ellie, I saw Ellie.
30:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:55 Speaker 00 And there's much more of that.
30:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:59 Speaker 00 So then some fans are like, no, I didn't, I didn't feel she was representing what I thought Ellie would be like. But so I imagine, I don't want to, I'm not trying to tee you up to say like, oh, my life is awful and it was, it's painful. Nevertheless, I'm sure it must have been painful at times.
31:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:16 Speaker 00 And you've touched, and actually you've touched the electric fence by going on social media at times.
31:22 Speaker 01 Yes. I think that season one, I found it much harder in a way because I already was doubting.
31:32 Speaker 00 You weren't sure you could do it?
31:33 Speaker 01 Yeah. I was about to say I disagreed with my casting, but that's not what I was trying to say. I think I was saying that I was kind of confused as to why they'd cast me, I think.
31:42 Speaker 00 I can relate to that.
31:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:44 Speaker 00 The sense, not that I was confused that you were cast, but just I think that's a common
31:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:49 Speaker 00 thing when you're put in an amazing, given an amazing opportunity and you're like, there's several billion people in the world.
31:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:55 Speaker 00 Are they sure they've got the right ones?
31:56 Speaker 01 Exactly. And so I think I already felt a bit of that. And then, so then seeing, yeah, people of the fan base, some people also questioning it in like pretty harsh ways sometimes. I was like, oh no, this is gonna be bad. But then as soon as I got on, I had two weeks quarantine, because it was during Covid, this is one, I got over there, had these two weeks of thinking about what I was about to do, also thinking about like, when the show comes out and being famous and not really wanting that either. And just had these awful two weeks of living in my head, basically. And then as soon as I got on set, I literally forgot, it all went away, I forgot about all of it. Because then it was like being on any other set, it didn't feel any different. But then as the show came out, it seems that
32:42 Speaker 01 People who had worries about it were sort of, for the most part, their worries sort of went away, which was good. And then, yeah, now season two, it's a fear again. I think the main thing for season two is that I don't look any older.
32:56 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
32:57 Speaker 01 But I was seventeen, I mean seventeen when we shot the first season and twenty one.
33:00 Speaker 00 Playing fourteen?
33:01 Speaker 01 Playing fourteen and nineteen now in this season.
33:03 Speaker 00 Now nineteen.
33:05 Speaker 01 And I don't, I do look young for my age, but I am twenty one. Like, it's some twenty one year olds and nineteen year olds do look how I look and, yeah.
33:14 Speaker 00 Are you saying that there's some people saying you don't look old enough for the role?
33:17 Speaker 01 That's like, I think, the main criticism of.
33:20 Speaker 00 From where? How is that filtering into your, um, purview?
33:23 Speaker 01 Oh, from Googling. I love a Google.
33:26 Speaker 00 Right.
33:26 Speaker 01 I've, I did, I did that for it in my social media recently. Not because of that, just, well, maybe partly, but mostly because I just, I just couldn't, it was so much pressure, I couldn't be dealing with it anymore. I just got kind of bored of it. But it was sort of social media before, and now it's a good old Google search.
33:42 Speaker 00 Did you do that thing on social media of, it's almost like roulette, right, where you're like, I'm gonna look at the mentions and see.
33:49 Speaker 01 And see what people have to say.
33:51 Speaker 00 And seven times it's, uh, you know, it'll be, you know, they love you, it's amazing, and then you find the horrible one.
33:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, and then, but then you sort of go looking for the next horrible one, or the one that's like slightly worse than the last one you saw. Yeah, I did. But, I mean, it's the sort of thing now where I'm like, well, like, people being like worried and concerned, and I understand, but the sort of like fights that people get into on the internet about whether I'm like the right casting for it, and people being like, you can't do anything about it.
34:24 Speaker 00 No.
34:24 Speaker 01 So, I don't know, I've sort of, I think I've compartmentalized it a bit, and I've just, it doesn't mean anything really to me anymore, I think.
34:32 Speaker 00 That's good. I think it's a kind of craziness to look for logic. On the internet at times, I mean, maybe I should qualify that a bit because it would be nice to expect civility. But there are, there are damaged, vulnerable people out there.
34:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:49 Speaker 00 Who are often sometimes spewing the toxic content, you know what I mean?
34:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, but that's also the thing of realising that there is like a human being behind all of these. Like sometimes really awful like comments is literally a human sat at home like typing that out like how. I don't know, I just think it's finding this humanity also behind these like keyboard warriors as they're called is also an interesting thing.
35:16 Speaker 00 It's only recently that I've accepted I am Ellie and I can do it and I'm a good actor. We sort of covered that, didn't we?
35:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
35:23 Speaker 00 But this will last for a few weeks and then I'll think I'm terrible again. That's just the process.
35:28 Speaker 01 Yes, that's an interesting one. I think for so long I was so afraid of saying that I was. A good actor, like scared of accepting that because my biggest fear growing up was that I'd be like. I was so terrified of people thinking that I was like big headed or uh like full of myself. I was terrified of it. But people would ask me, it's like such a kid question to ask, like when people find out I'm not today, oh, you're only good. I used to be like, no, but now, because I thought that was what. That was how you would be humble was to say like no, to deny that you were good at anything. And now I don't have proper imposter syndrome when it comes to acting.
36:12 Speaker 01 But I think that you're supposed to.
36:15 Speaker 00 Right.
36:15 Speaker 01 As an actor, I think you're supposed to go to every set and feel like you're not supposed to be here, you don't belong. But I do feel like I'm supposed to be there and like I belong, like always have. There are certain scenes and certain days where I'll feel like I'm absolutely terrible, but then. The next, like it's momentary.
36:34 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
36:35 Speaker 01 And I can rush like reason myself out of it and be like, no, you're fine. You just had like. That was in ninety percent and normally you're like in ninety eight and it's fine, like it's, it's okay. But so I get still very affected if I feel like I've not done it as good a job as I could have done in a day or with a scene. But that's different to me than imposter syndrome. I think I just find it so weird, like when people call me like a celebrity or like a famous, but that's the stuff I find. But that's not even imposter syndrome. I just find it weird that like it doesn't feel like that's me. I don't think about, I don't feel like a famous person. Or think about that in any way. So that's the thing that feels like the most like it's not supposed to be me.
37:16 Speaker 01 But not of a way of like, I don't feel like I deserve, it's not even like a thing of like, I don't deserve that. It's just weird and not who I am really, even though it sort of is, I suppose.
37:27 Speaker 00 I I mean, you're a celebrity, uh.
37:30 Speaker 01 Gross.
37:31 Speaker 00 It it how does that feel?
37:34 Speaker 01 Well, I don't know. But I think there's a difference between being a celebrity and being famous. I think being famous is something that happens as a byproduct of doing great work. That's publicly recognised, but I think that being a celebrity is way more of an active decision. Like, I'm gonna do all of these.
37:51 Speaker 00 Maybe you're not a celebrity.
37:52 Speaker 01 I don't think so. I don't class myself. I don't.
37:54 Speaker 00 People would see you as one, though.
37:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, they would, I know. It was my own definition. By my own definitions of like celebrity and famous. I don't fit into the celebrity category.
38:04 Speaker 00 Do you have strategies uh for avoiding recognition?
38:09 Speaker 01 Yep.
38:11 Speaker 01 I can sort of often tell. Who, like the demographic, like I'll get on the tube. And I'll know, I like, I'll see people as they get on the tube and I'll be like, ah, here we go. And then sure enough, th- then they start like chatting to each other and sort of whispering and then it it it feels kind of weird and. It triggers the thing of like being at at school when people like are talking about you, even though it's not in a negative way, but when people are laughing about you, it triggers that sort of feeling. I'm like, ah, it just feels a bit uncomfortable.
38:46 Speaker 01 So there have been times, there was one time where people were like talking really loudly on the tube about it and I was like, I need to just get out of it. I got off and got onto the next, like at the next stop, I like got off and just got onto the next carriage. I've done that before.
38:58 Speaker 00 Have you avoided the the paps? Like, are people?
39:00 Speaker 01 Yes.
39:01 Speaker 00 Like, are you, are they pursuing you? Do you find people twitching in bushes?
39:04 Speaker 01 No.
39:05 Speaker 00 Because they're trying to get you in a relationship shot or something?
39:08 Speaker 01 No, they don't really care about me, which is great, because I've not given them much to care about also, I think. Like, there's also a sort of blessing in the way that I dress and the way that I present myself. It's much more masculine. It's not, it's, I'm not sexualized by the media in any way, really, which I'm really grateful for, because I think that's also, that's protected me. That wasn't a conscious decision, that's just like how I am, but I think that's protected me in a lot of ways from some of the really awful media attention that people in a similar position to me get.
39:40 Speaker 00 Is this my awkward segue into the following question? So, you're non-binary.
39:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:46 Speaker 00 You you find the they/them pronouns most appropriate. You were born female, but she doesn't fit for you? Is it, is there, what's the best way of explaining that to someone? Is that, if I phrase that correctly?
39:58 Speaker 01 No, it's, no, it's, I, it's a really good question. I was never thought about pronouns, really, until season one of Last of Us was coming out. And it was a question that I had, that was suddenly I had to choose, like, what um, pronoun I wanted people to, like, write about me with. I was so stressed out about it, because I didn't know and I didn't really care.
40:27 Speaker 01 But I found, yeah, I found the whole thing quite stressful still. There was a thing on, like, Last of Us this season, um, it was a question again, have I gone set? How do I, what should people refer to me by? And I just said, like, my thing at the moment is, like, call me how you see me. Like, if, I'm so aware that, like, I get into a taxi and the taxi guy's gonna call me sheep because I look like.
40:52 Speaker 00 Mm hmm.
40:53 Speaker 01 Your, it's just a natural thing that happens in your brain.
40:56 Speaker 00 For sure.
40:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, which I completely get. And so I've never been, like, strict about they/them, because.
41:05 Speaker 01 I think I just don't really care also. I'm very comfortable in like who I am. Um, so for, but I know, I know how important it is for other people, but for me, it's not as important right now that it's specific. I'm like, I don't really, I just, it doesn't really matter to me. I don't really care.
41:23 Speaker 00 There was a little bit of a fuss when you were nominated as, in the female category for an acting, was it Emmy?
41:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:32 Speaker 00 And some people took that as insulting to you, I guess. Is that what it was?
41:37 Speaker 01 I didn't find it insulting.
41:38 Speaker 00 But then it's like, well, they don't have a non-binary category. So which category would you be in then? You know what I mean?
41:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:45 Speaker 00 Like, I was like, well, it'd be nice to get an Emmy. You know what I mean?
41:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
41:50 Speaker 00 And the other part is if you just have a single category for everyone, then basically a lot of women wouldn't get nominated.
41:58 Speaker 01 Hmm.
41:58 Speaker 00 You know, I think there was a music award where that basically happened. You know, it's a way of ring fencing a certain level of gender equality.
42:05 Speaker 01 Yes. I think it's so important that that's preserved as well. Like the recognition, recognition for women in the industry is preserved. Like, I think the, the gendered categories conversation is a really interesting one and I don't have the answer. And I wish that there was something that was like an easy way around it, but I think that it is really important that we have like a female category and a male category, but, but then like, where do non-binary or gender non-comforming people like fit into that? I don't know. I've thought about, I've tried to like, I've literally sat and tried to think my way to the, to the answer and haven't got there.
42:39 Speaker 00 Didn't get there yet.
42:40 Speaker 01 Cause there's a thing of like, you could do it for the character portrayed. It's like best performance in a female character, but then what about when there are like non-binary characters on screen? Which is few and far between at the moment, but then where does a non-binary person playing a non-binary character, like where does that, where do they fit into? I don't know. It's really. Complicated.
43:00 Speaker 00 What about the, I mean, I'm old, right? I, I, I sometimes, like, I still quite like the word actress.
43:08 Speaker 01 Fair.
43:09 Speaker 00 Cause then female actor, male actor, I get it. And certain words are weird, like comedian or, you know, authoress.
43:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:18 Speaker 00 Those are stupid weird words, but actress feels like a word that has some gravity to it.
43:23 Speaker 01 And there's a lot of people that I've worked with who like call themselves actresses and like introduce themselves as such. And I'm really comfortable in that. I've always just called myself an actor because it's, yeah, but I think that, I don't think that those words have to be taken away, like I'm, I don't think that that's. I don't know.
43:42 Speaker 00 No, no, I get it. Gendered language, it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be diminishing, I don't think.
43:47 Speaker 01 I just find it a bit weird and like a bit funny because it's like, if people call me an actress, I have a sort of like a gut, gut, or like, ugh, that's not quite right. Instinct to it, but. I think that I just don't.
44:01 Speaker 01 Take. It too seriously. In terms of like, it doesn't feel like an attack on my identity, getting a thing with actress. It's just kind of a funny thing that doesn't really fit.
44:13 Speaker 00 I get it.
44:14 Speaker 01 I think I'm quite like laid back about it all.
44:17 Speaker 00 It sounds like it.
44:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:18 Speaker 00 Do you feel, I mean, it, it, it brings things up in me like, well, do, do I feel like a man, you know? Strange thing to maybe ask yourself after all these years of life. And I concluded, I think I do, right? I think I probably do.
44:32 Speaker 01 Fair enough.
44:33 Speaker 00 Although I couldn't quite say.
44:34 Speaker 01 Why?
44:35 Speaker 00 What exactly that means. And there's certainly aspects of masculinity that. As it's conventionally constructed, that I don't endorse. I wonder if, do you feel like you have a tribe as such? Like, am I right in thinking you've never really felt? Female?
44:51 Speaker 01 No, never.
44:53 Speaker 00 And what that would mean?
44:55 Speaker 01 This is where I've been looking into this a lot recently. I've tried to do like a lot of research from both sides. Like I've been watching a lot of like gender critical, like researchers and people talking about like the opposite end of the spectrum being like, being transgender doesn't exist, which.
45:10 Speaker 00 Right, gender critical, like classically, well, Jermaine Greer, who's I've had on the podcast, but people who.
45:17 Speaker 00 Some of them are old school feminists.
45:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I've been trying to like, on like my own journey, I guess, like, understanding what it actually is. Cause there's been a lot of times I'm like, what is this even, like, what even is this? Like, the neurology of, or the psychology of being like, non-binary or like. I rejected that word for so long, by the way, because it didn't, I didn't want it to be like trendy. I didn't want it, it was just something that I'd, it's been very obvious since I was young that I'd always, I always call myself a tomboy. But it wasn't that I was like a boyish girl, I was always like a bit of an in-between. Leading mo- more to the boy side, to be honest. I feel like I had the, more the, I grew up more as like a little boy than I did a little girl.
45:59 Speaker 01 Like, I always felt more masculine or like, yeah, more on that side of the spectrum, I guess. At the moment, I don't feel like I have access to like femininity in the way that I would, would be not, if I was like more masculine presenting. Like, there's an element of being able to be more comfortable with the idea of femininity. I think when I'm trying to avoid, like, being perceived as a woman or like a, yeah, in my everyday life. Like, the idea of me exploring femininity in any way feels like that doesn't serve my purpose, you know what I mean?
46:40 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
46:41 Speaker 01 Um, so I feel a bit like sad about that sometimes, but I think that, I think it's also like, it's a journey as, as always.
46:48 Speaker 00 But you said you feel sad about what?
46:50 Speaker 01 Like, the idea of femininity being something that I think is so beautiful and so, but me not feeling like I have any access to it.
46:59 Speaker 00 So there's some part of you that is, but maybe feels like it would like a bit of that.
47:04 Speaker 01 But within, like, a masculine mould, you know how like there's feminine, more feminine guys? Like, the whole Harry Styles, like, wearing a dress, and that, that's what it is. It's like.
47:18 Speaker 01 Femininity within the structure of like masculinity, I suppose. I don't know, I feel like it's now just words that don't mean anything.
47:26 Speaker 00 No, you made it, when you said Harry Styles in a dress.
47:29 Speaker 01 Did that make sense?
47:30 Speaker 00 Everyone got it.
47:31 Speaker 01 Okay, good.
47:33 Speaker 01 Okay, good.
47:34 Speaker 00 When you look at the gender critical content.
47:36 Speaker 01 Yes.
47:36 Speaker 00 How do you find that? J K Rowling would be the other big name, I suppose.
47:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, I find it a bit scary. And there's an element of that makes me like question everything. But then it's undeniable, like I can't deny like how I have felt all my life and how other people that I know have felt like all their lives. Like it is a real thing, like it just is.
48:01 Speaker 00 So you're not hate watching it?
48:03 Speaker 01 No, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm watching it with a with an open mind and like with a really like a critical eye, like critically thinking about it all. I'm watching it to try and understand and to try and be more secure in my own beliefs. And to know why I believe what I do.
48:22 Speaker 00 Yeah.
48:23 Speaker 01 Not just believing something because because it's the thing that like a lot of people might believe.
48:29 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, you're steel manning it in the sense that you're steel manning, you know that phrase?
48:33 Speaker 01 No.
48:34 Speaker 00 It's the idea, you know, straw man is like an artificial sort of weak version of a counter argument. You're like, that's just a straw man of what I'm saying. But a steel man is when you construct a version of the argument that you don't agree with.
48:45 Speaker 01 Yes.
48:45 Speaker 00 Just to figure out how secure you are in what you do believe.
48:49 Speaker 01 Exactly, yeah.
48:52 Speaker 00 How's your energy?
48:53 Speaker 01 Fine.
48:54 Speaker 00 Are you good?
48:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:55 Speaker 00 This is a great conversation, I feel like I can announce that. You've said that you are emetophobia.
49:01 Speaker 01 Haha, yes.
49:02 Speaker 00 Did you know that?
49:03 Speaker 01 I did.
49:04 Speaker 00 What does that mean?
49:05 Speaker 01 Ah, emetophobia is this like really intense fear, like phobia of vomit and everything to do with it. If you feel a bit sick, if someone else feels sick or is sick, like it's, the whole thing is absolutely terrifying.
49:18 Speaker 00 You're not worried about other people throwing up?
49:20 Speaker 01 No, I am, or not so, so what I was gonna say is that I'm, I've gotten so much better. I did this thing called the Thrive Program, which is written by a guy called Rob Kelly. And I, this is an emetophobia specific one, based on literally just like research and logic. And that book, like you do it and you basically understand how you've created this phobia and therefore how to like uncreate, like stop doing that. Um, and I did that a couple of times. I've sort of done it over the years and I'm like literally the other day. Thought I was actually gonna like throw up and was, this is trigger one by the way for anyone who's metaphobic, but thought that I was gonna be.
49:59 Speaker 01 Um, was like fine by the idea of it. I'm like, I can do it. This will be fine. So I'm basically, all of this is a long ramble to say that I feel now that I'm not a metaphobic anymore. I think that I have a slightly stronger reaction to vomit than the average person. Or I'm slightly more of us or afraid of it.
50:19 Speaker 00 Your own vomit.
50:20 Speaker 01 And and just vomit in general. The concept of having a stomach bug or having norovirus is enough to send like it.
50:30 Speaker 00 Just the two, what what would happen?
50:32 Speaker 01 It's such an all encompassing fear. It's like you can't, it's the it's the unpredictability of like, I don't know. If I've got this and when I've got it and it's safe. I've been in contact with somebody who has got norovirus. For the next like two weeks, it's a thing of like monitoring how I'm feeling like, what if I go out and go on the tube and then start and then the symptoms come and I start to feel them. Well, then I throw up on the tube and how bad is that? And then there was a time which I like couldn't leave my house up in Leicestershire because everything outside was a threat.
50:59 Speaker 00 When you were how old?
51:01 Speaker 01 Uh, maybe like thirteen. Everything was a threat. You go out and there's just like, you just see, it's like you can like, you see germs, you see like sickness. Everywhere, terrifying.
51:13 Speaker 00 But like a zombie apocalypse.
51:14 Speaker 01 Literally, but it used to affect me on set as well. That was where, that was the source of most of my anxiety growing up. Ninety eight percent of it was rooted in this emetophobia fear, vomit.
51:28 Speaker 00 How old were you when you realised it was a thing that you had?
51:31 Speaker 01 Since I was, I can't.
51:33 Speaker 00 For as long as you can remember.
51:34 Speaker 01 I can remember. I remember in nursery, there was a kid who threw up in the sandpit and a bit went onto my red crocs and I found it amusing. Every memory since then that I have of vomit is like scary. Um, but I also remember every single time anyone in my life has ever felt felt sick or been sick. Every single.
51:56 Speaker 00 You remember it because it was a source of anxiety for you.
51:59 Speaker 01 Even now, like every single time I can like recall, every anytime anyone's felt sick or been sick in my presence. But it's such a irrational fear, like, and I was so aware of what as well of how irrational it was. Um. And people with emetophobia often like describe the same thing. It's like, you know logically, it's like, um. It's not something to be afraid of. It's a very natural, really beneficial.
52:24 Speaker 00 It's a health response, really.
52:26 Speaker 01 Exactly. But for some reason, it's just, I, it's because of the combination of lots of different, basically lots of different like thinking styles and lots of, it's like a perfect storm. It's like all the ingredients of a chocolate cake. You have to have like certain ingredients of thinking styles and belief systems to create the perfect storm of emetophobia. And that's what this book, the Thigh Program, helps you to like understand all of the different components that are building it up and then.
52:52 Speaker 00 Which are what? What kinds of things?
52:54 Speaker 01 Uh, like catastrophic thinking, black and white thinking.
52:57 Speaker 00 All the classics.
52:58 Speaker 01 The classics. There's a, uh, the really specific one to emetophobia is a thing called disgust propensity, which is how like disgusted you are by things, basically, like your, your reaction to things. So like pulling fricking hairs out of a sink. Like if your disgust propensity is really high, the idea of that is like enough to like make you feel a bit queasy, like you wouldn't even wanna. But if it's low, you're just like, yeah, I'll pull the hairs out of the sink. And people with emetophobia have amongst all this other perfect storm, they have, like, the key ingredient is this disgust propensity. They have a really high disgust propensity. Um, but it's quite intense, like emetophobia. It feels like I have expressed in the past that I would rather like,
53:42 Speaker 01 I'd like, there was a time which I thought that I'd rather like die than throw up. Like, that's how intense it is for a lot of people. At the time, like, I wasn't leaving the house. I'd rather, lit- yeah, I'd literally rather not be here than have to throw up. Crazy, crazy how intense it can get.
53:58 Speaker 00 How long, how long was it that you weren't leaving the house for? Was it like months?
54:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, months.
54:03 Speaker 00 Not years?
54:04 Speaker 01 No, not years, months, but.
54:05 Speaker 00 Home educating?
54:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, the only safe place in the world was home. And then even that wasn't safe. At times with, in terms of germs, because then people have been like walking outside in the street and come in in shoes and then in the emetphobic brain, there's like vomiting bug germs on the shoes and then the shoes have gone through the house and then you've sat on the floor and then it, that's on your clothes and then you've touched your jeans and then suddenly you've got the vomiting bug germs on your hands, like from all of these steps. And then you accidentally like touch your hands to your face and then, and then you're gonna have like a vomiting bug. Is the thought process.
54:40 Speaker 00 Wow.
54:40 Speaker 01 So intense.
54:41 Speaker 00 You've said you're neurodivergent as well. Is that related to that?
54:45 Speaker 01 I think so. I think so, yeah.
54:47 Speaker 00 Are you on the spectrum?
54:48 Speaker 01 Yes. Good observation. I am. And I think that that is definitely a part of it.
54:57 Speaker 00 That's part of the black and white thinking, or could be.
55:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. But not all people who have like autism or on the autistic spectrum have like a messophobia. But it is one of the things that, for me, I mean, so when I got that diagnosis, like so much in my life made sense. And so much of how my experience growing up and like, it's helpful for me every day, having that understanding.
55:21 Speaker 00 Was that related, by the way, we don't have to keep talking about this. Are you, are you okay?
55:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, I like.
55:24 Speaker 00 Was that related to your eating disorder as well?
55:27 Speaker 01 Yeah. Oh, interestingly, I wanted to tell you this. I watched your documentary on eating disorders that you did. While I had an eating disorder.
55:36 Speaker 00 Way, talking to anorexia.
55:37 Speaker 01 Yes, talking to anorexia, that was it.
55:39 Speaker 00 What was that, twenty?
55:40 Speaker 01 Like twenty seventeen?
55:41 Speaker 00 Seventeen, yeah.
55:42 Speaker 01 Yeah. I remember watching that and like, I, I've written a film sort of about my experience. Um, but the story isn't mine, it's sort of fictionalized, but that documentary is in my film.
55:55 Speaker 00 Is it?
55:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:56 Speaker 00 Oh my god.
55:57 Speaker 01 Mila, the character is like watching the documentary in the film and then like, there's a, like pauses the screen on the bit where you're um, looking at the, the charts of what weight you have to be to be admitted into hospital, or what weight the people were. Like my script, yeah, Mila like pauses the screen and like looks at what number that is, because that's what she wants. Anyway, yes.
56:16 Speaker 00 Isn't that interesting, and that's?
56:17 Speaker 01 Really interesting.
56:18 Speaker 00 That's really interesting and actually, that, I mean, I feel very flattered, but I'm also aware that it makes me think about how that's a triggering, thing to show on. And I was, I liked to think at the time, I was being quite careful, like trying not to talk about, weight or not saying people looked either thin or not thin or healthy or not healthy, because all of that. As you know, like, the one of the confusing and dangerous things about anorexia is that all the barometers of unhealth become barometers of success in the mind of the anorexic person.
56:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's true.
56:51 Speaker 00 And so when they're saying like, you need to stop, you look absolutely terrible, they're like, yes.
56:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:58 Speaker 00 I'm succeeding. Or you've lost another amount of weight. And they're like, yes. And my biggest takeaway from that was that, you know, the conventional view that it's about people trying to conform to some idealistic, over idealized beauty type, or that they're reading too many magazines or looking at Instagram too much. That it wasn't that.
57:18 Speaker 01 No.
57:18 Speaker 00 It was kind of a way of keeping score in some way, and also dealing with anxiety.
57:23 Speaker 01 Mm hmm. And the need for like, control.
57:26 Speaker 00 Control, exactly.
57:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was, yeah. I remember watching it and sort of having like mixed, I like enjoyed watching it because it was like, if I felt very validated by it and about how like unwell I was. But it was also a thing of like, there was a certain jealousy. It's sort of like this eating disorders are so dark, can be so dark. There's certain jealousy because I'm like, I want to be those people in that hospital. Like, there's an element of eating disorders which is like.
57:52 Speaker 00 Competitive?
57:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, very, very much so.
57:54 Speaker 00 But you wanted to be them because, because they were succeeding at being ill?
57:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, basically.
58:01 Speaker 00 Right.
58:02 Speaker 01 And I, I was one pound away from being hospitalized. If I was like one pound less, they would have sent me to hospital. And I was, that was always such a source of annoyance for me. Not, and I write about this in my script in this film that I'll be making at some point. Um, yeah, but I think that there's a very high correlation between people on the autistic spectrum and people who have eating disorders, especially in like female brains.
58:31 Speaker 00 Interesting.
58:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's quite a high correlation. I think that there's, it, it's sort of, um, it feels like the mental health equivalent to me of like lining up objects, which is something that I do and a lot of autistic people do of like, it feels like that. It feels like you're, it's the same sort of satisfaction of like lining things up.
58:53 Speaker 00 It's like an organizational impulse?
58:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think so. And like the control aspect of it, like I.
59:00 Speaker 00 What kind of objects do you lining up?
59:02 Speaker 01 Whenever I go to like a hotel and I'm working or something, my like toiletries are in a perfect line. Um, or like I've got little like tiny like trinket things I've been given over the years and that on my shelves at home, they're all like lined up. I like, I didn't know, I was eighteen, I was during season one, I got diagnosed.
59:22 Speaker 00 Uh, you from consuming gender critical content, you'll know that there's one theory that actually autistic girls are being transitioned.
59:30 Speaker 01 Yes, I, that was, yeah, one of the videos I was watching.
59:33 Speaker 00 Are being sounds loaded, but but uh but transitioning um at a higher rate than is healthy because then I guess the diagnosis isn't correct.
59:44 Speaker 01 There's an argument that.
59:45 Speaker 00 Allegation.
59:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, there's an argument that um because of like the black and white thinking of like sometimes of autistic individuals and the idea of like you grow up in a world where you don't really feel like you fit in everywhere anyway, you don't really know why. If you're not diagnosed like autistic, you don't, you just feel like this sense of not fitting in, there's a theory that then for some reason, people who have this experience decide that they're in the wrong gender, like this is what people say.
1:00:13 Speaker 00 Because they're not comfortable sitting in ambivalence, right? It's like the shades of grey, they're like, this doesn't feel right, I'll go the other way.
1:00:21 Speaker 01 Yes, right. And that made me think, I was like, whoa, that's a really interesting point. But then it all, it lost all its credit and validity to me when then this same guy who was talking about this was saying that like and this element of, you know, like the kids, they don't feel like they fit in in school, maybe they're a bit geeky, a bit nerdy and being like transgender or non-binary is like a cool thing, so then they become this and then suddenly they're like the coolest person in the school and that, I was like, well, that's a load of bullshit, like that's not at all what it is.
1:00:51 Speaker 00 It's not attention seeking.
1:00:52 Speaker 01 No, I actively have like avoided the label of non-binary because I didn't, I was so afraid. Like before I'd read, knew any of this, I was so not wanting to be trendy or cool, like or seen to be that. It was just a descriptive word, it was a really helpful word to to describe my experience to people. Anyway, that that autism uh transgender theory is something that I think it's been hel- helpful for me to like question myself and question how much I'm like feeling like I need to fit into either one of the binaries because of this back of my thinking, but I think that that as an argument as a whole, like is quite dangerous. It's good to like steel, steel.
1:01:33 Speaker 00 Steel man.
1:01:34 Speaker 01 Steel man, it's good to like.
1:01:35 Speaker 00 Steel man, the counter arguments.
1:01:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:38 Speaker 00 To keep yourself honest in a way.
1:01:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:01:42 Speaker 00 And that point about non-binaries, it made me think, if I can bring it full circle, you know, it makes me think about zombies. And I was joking to my team about this. You know, as you know, I like, I love The Last of Us, I like zombie films in general. But the human zombie binary, my dream is that there's one day, there's a show where there's almost like there's some intermediate stage or that zombies are somehow recoverable. Does that make sense?
1:02:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:10 Speaker 00 Because what we haven't seen, because so much of a zombie culture is to do with, oh, we have a consequence free way of killing a lot of people.
1:02:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:17 Speaker 00 Because they're just zombies.
1:02:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:19 Speaker 00 So we don't have to care about them. And the zombie's always the other, like, there's never a nice zombie, you know, like, there's never a nice orc. I'm going to the Lord of the Rings now. We're fine, we can just kill them en masse. But the minute they start to exhibit positive qualities, the moral dimensions of it become more interesting.
1:02:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, definitely.
1:02:40 Speaker 00 So that's my pitch. Craig and Neil, if you're listening.
1:02:43 Speaker 01 They probably are.
1:02:44 Speaker 00 They might be.
1:02:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, we'll get you in the writers room.
1:02:47 Speaker 00 Get me in the writers room. I don't think it'll fit in the Last of Us universe.
1:02:50 Speaker 01 I mean, I think of any zombie universe.
1:02:53 Speaker 00 Once you're a fungus, it's hard to come back from that.
1:02:55 Speaker 01 I don't think, but finding the humanity within the fungus is something that you definitely could do.
1:03:01 Speaker 00 That'll be the challenge.
1:03:16 Speaker 00 Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that. And just to address the elephant in the room, it's not that I hate Game of Thrones. It's more that I've not really watched it and I've decided to have fun with that. And maybe also that I do love or used to love The Lord of the Rings, read that twice when I was a kid. I like those movies. And so maybe I do have a bit of a reaction to something that's sort of taking The Lord of the Rings and then filling it with sort of sex and cleavage. It feels a bit weird. So maybe I do hate it. Okay, let's work with that. And maybe you need to deal with that.
1:03:58 Speaker 00 With maybe you need to sit in the discomfort that you feel with me not liking your favorite show. Maybe you need to go fuck yourself. Think about that.
1:04:11 Speaker 00 I think part of it is the RR thing. Like George RR Martin. Come on, man. What are you trying to do? You just think as J R R Tolkien had two Rs in that you wanna be in the club? Stop it. That is childish. Okay, maybe this is my problem.
1:04:33 Speaker 00 And to be clear, The Last of Us is excellent. I think I made that pretty clear in the chat. I haven't seen at time of recording the rest of the second season, but I'm looking forward to it. Craig Mason and Neil Druckmann, if you're intrigued by the non-binary zombies idea, please reach out. I am happy to take your call. I think you'll find my terms very reasonable.
1:04:58 Speaker 00 I'd like to see child orcs as well. Is that in the chat? I'd like to see orcs, humanize the orcs. Maybe that's my bumper sticker. Humanize the orcs. Because it's so convenient when you dehumanize the enemy, then you can kill them willy-nilly. And what if they have feelings? We know they have restaurants because one of them says, "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys." Right? If they have restaurants, they must be capable of a fairly high level of civilization. That's not my app, Suh. I once read that on Twitter. Someone pointed out like, "How can orcs know about menus?" Right? My point is it's very convenient to imagine that other living creatures have no worth.
1:05:41 Speaker 00 But isn't it more interesting, more dramatically, morally interesting to try and imbue some degree of worth, humanity, just sort of value onto what we consider the other? Even if it's a zombie with a fungus growing out of its head. If you've been affected by the topics discussed in this episode, Spotify have a website for information and resources, visit spotify.com/resources. And a reminder that if you're listening to the podcast rather than watching it, you can watch some clips of the episodes over on my YouTube channel, @LouisTheroux, as well as much else besides.
1:06:22 Speaker 00 Kind of, it's not that much.
1:06:25 Speaker 00 But it's all good stuff.
1:06:29 Speaker 00 I'm trying to close in on Mr. Beast.
1:06:32 Speaker 00 I think we're up around at least like a couple of thousand subs.
1:06:37 Speaker 00 We just need another 200 million. Um...
1:06:42 Speaker 00 That's it for today, apart from the credits. The producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Maisie Williams, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.
Previous Louis is back with the fifth season of his podcast! Next S5 EP2: Sean Penn on dining with Jack Nicholson and Putin, run-ins with the paparazzi, and his relationship with Zelenskyy Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated