S4 EP4: Leon Edwards on rubbing shoulders with Andrew Tate, the time Donald Trump saw him fight, and how MMA saved his life

Louis is joined in the studio by MMA fighter and UFC welterweight champion, Leon ‘Rocky’ Edwards. Leon talks about rubbing shoulders with Andrew Tate, how MMA saved him from a life of crime and what happened when Donald Trump came to see him fight. Plus, Leon puts Louis’s physical strength to the test… Warnings: Strong language and adult themes Links/Attachments: ‘MMA Fighting’s 2022 Knockout of the Year: Leon Edwards vs. Kamaru Usman’ - MMA Fighting https://www.mmafighting.com/2022/12/25/23524649/mma-fightings-2022-knockout-of-the-year-leon-edwards-vs-kamaru-usman UFC Welterweight Ranking https://www.ufc.com/rankings ‘Colby Covington: UFC fighter provokes pre-bout row by saying Leon Edwards' dead father is 'in hell'’ - Sky News https://news.sky.com/story/colby-covington-ufc-fighter-provokes-pre-bout-row-by-saying-leon-edwards-dead-father-is-in-hell-13030863 ‘Briton Edwards loses title in Manchester UFC fight’ - BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/mixed-martial-arts/articles/cevwr1gpgv9o Credits: Producer: Millie Chu  Assistant Producer: Emilia Gill Production Manager: Francesca Bassett  Music: Miguel D’Oliveira  Audio Mixer: Tom Guest Video Mixer: Scott Edwards Shownotes compiled by Immie Webb Executive Producer: Arron Fellows     A Mindhouse Production for Spotify  www.mindhouse.co.uk  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hello 1212, are you there?

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Hello, Louis Through here, welcome to my podcast called the Louis Through Podcast. Yes, it's still called that.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Today I'm speaking with British MMA fighter and UFC welterweight champion Leon Rocky Edwards. Leon was born in Kingston, Jamaica, moving to Birmingham at nine years old. His dad had been a gang leader. He ended up getting killed when Leon was just 13 years old and in order to keep Leon out of trouble, his mum signed him up for a local gym where he began fighting. We talk about all of that. He became a professional fighter in 2011 and signed with the UFC, the Ultimate Fighting Championship in 2014. That's the big promotion, really, the only one that counts, I think you could say, it's massive. In 2022, he had a career-defining victory over Kamaru Usman with a dramatic fifth-round knockout. It's legendary in UFC circles and in fact, there's even memes of Joe Rogan's reaction

• 1:05Speaker 00

  when it happened, a look of total shock that get recycled when anything explosive happens on the internet. He claimed the UFC welterweight championship belt, becoming the second British UFC champion ever. So he's a big deal and it was in fact my son, my middle son, who put him on my radar and said, Dad, you should speak to Leon. He's obviously a role model and icon to many of the nation's teenagers. At the time of recording, Leon is ranked number one in the UFC's welterweight division. Slightly off the back of my son's interest, also because I'm curious about boxing and martial arts generally, I began following UFC a few years ago. I've been to one or two bouts, one or two events when it's come to London.

• 1:50Speaker 00

  It travels, the promotion travels and so they do events sometimes at the O2 in London and it's quite an amazing night out. Random fact, I bumped into Michaela Cole at one of the events and it turns out she's quite the fan. It's become massive in the last few years and it's also become identified with a certain unapologetic masculine outlook. Dana White, the guy who built UFC into the juggernaut that it is now, is very friendly with Donald Trump and Donald Trump was one of the first people to host UFC bouts at his casinos back in the day and when UFC was considered maybe disreputable.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  Donald Trump would host it at his casinos in Atlantic City. And they've been friendly ever since Dana and Donald. And then when Donald got elected, Donald, I'm talking like I know him. When Donald Trump got elected, then Dana White was invited to a couple of things and they spoke together. So we talk about that Leon and I, and the sense in which it's sort of the gladiatorial games for this sort of Donald Trump imperial era that we're in. Like if we're in this sort of moment of Caesarian politics that calls back to kind of the Roman Empire. It feels like this is the Colosseum de Nojour. I slipped into French there. This one was recorded in person in mid-November last year. Leon was fresh off a loss against Bilal Mohammed, a Palestinian fighter in Manchester

• 3:14Speaker 00

  that took place in the early hours of the morning due to a scheduling decision. So it would be on at a better time for the US audience. For the more observant viewers among you, you may see that we're in a different studio. What happened was we turned up here at the Spotify studio. And then about five or 10 minutes into the chat, suddenly this light up here got incredibly bright, almost like an alien spaceship was landing. And we stopped and said, what's happening? Are we going into the Twilight Zone? And then all the power suddenly went out. And it turned out that the entire block where we are here in in central London, there was some kind of power surge or power outage. So we had to adjourn. And for a minute it was like, what do we do now? We sat around in the dark like figures at the end of the apocalypse,

• 3:58Speaker 00

  trapped in the basement of the Spotify HQ. And then made a decision to reconvene at a studio conveniently found by Millie, the producer across town. I cycled down there. Leon and his friend rode down there in a car and we started again. So that's where we joined the conversation in medias res, as they say in Latin, in the middle of the thing. Warning, there is some strong language in this episode. I don't remember it, but it says that here. Maybe a few fucks. And sorry about that. And for our viewership on Spotify, a display of semi-toxic masculinity. I'm reading this.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  Is there? When Leon goaded me into doing some press ups on camera. Stay tuned for that at the very end. How many do you think I did? Have a ballot, have fun. Do you think it was five, 10, 50?

• 4:52Speaker 00

  If you guess now and timestamp your guess and then send it in and nothing will happen. All that and much, much more after this.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Are we rolling?

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we are.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  Have we got everything? Camera? Sound? Take two.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Well, how would you describe what it is?

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Mixed martial arts. Um, this is basically a mixture of all martial arts mashed into one. The most common use martial arts is like boxing, boxing, wrestling and jiu jitsu.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  When it started, it was actually, so they say, like a way of, because I remember it was the early 90s. 91, 92, 93. And I was a younger man, 21, 22. And it was advertised as a way of deciding

• 6:00Speaker 01

  What style's the better?

• 6:01Speaker 00

  Which style is better, almost like a video game.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Right, like.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  In the early days, again, this is taking me back. It seemed like there was a guy called Royce Gracie or Hoist Gracie.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Hoist Gracie, yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  And, um, and a guy called Ken Shamrock.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Ken Shamrock.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Do you remember him?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  What was his fighting style?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Um, Ken Shamrock is more like a striker, I would say, wrestling striker, kind of, kind of thing. Because back in the day, like, it used to be like, just like one, you could wear anything you want. You could wear like one gloves, you know, you can kick in the balls, you can grab people's hair. You can, it's like a total different sport, you know?

• 6:36Speaker 00

  They basically, they were sort of saying, oh, it's like, anything goes. Like, the tagline was something like, there are no rules.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  No rules, yeah. It's just like, your style versus my style.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  I mean Senator John McCain in America said this is human cockfighting and he said like this is you know whatever this is uncivilized and brutal and dangerous. At that time, they said there were no rules, but there were some rules, right? You couldn't eye gouge or bite.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't bite, eye gouge, stuff like that, but before it was like.

• 7:02Speaker 00

  And if you tap out, you have to stop. They changed that later, I think.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I thought you could, but yeah, stuff like that really, but I went around that time, so I'm happy I went around that time.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  How did it, how was it on your radar?

• 7:16Speaker 01

  I knew nothing about it until I was 17, 16, 17 years old.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  I actually thought I was going to like a Thai boxing gym at the start and it turned out it was MMA gym and I just kind of like stuck to it like.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  So you weren't watching it on TV?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  No, I knew nothing about it. I didn't know nothing about mixed martial arts until I actually started training in it and I thought, what is it? So I started like Googling it and watching YouTube videos and yeah, so I just started getting more and more, I fell in love with it.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  You know, I want to talk about how you came up and your backstory is extraordinary and the things that you've overcome. We'll come on to that, but just for a minute to stay in the present, like what's really striking is the way in which UFC isn't, isn't just huge. You know, it's worth more than a billion dollars a year. It's up there with the top 10 sports in the world probably. And that's just, you know, and the others are all things like American football, what we call football.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  NBA.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Basketball, like things that have been around for a hundred years or so. And then here's this other form of sporting entertainment that's absolutely just arisen and become huge. But also the way in which it feels like, and I don't know if you're conscious of this, it feels like it aligns with the times that we're in. Like, and I'm not trying to pin this on you in any way, but it's been really interesting to see how Trump has been intertwined with aspects of, of the sport. And Dana White, the main promoter, is a friend of Trump's. Trump's casinos initially were one of the few places that it was supported and backed, right? Are you aware of that?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  Have you ever seen Trump at one of the events?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  I have, yeah. I think he's been to one of my fights before in Vegas, I think.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Really? Who were you fighting?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Who was it? Colby, yeah, Colby Covington.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  You've got Oliver over there. Hi Oliver.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Is Oliver a friend or a manager or both?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  My friend.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Just a friend?

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, just a friend. A good lad.

• 9:10Speaker 00

  Everyone needs a friend, especially at this level.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Millie's my friend. No, maybe not.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  You were fighting Colby Covington.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, Colby Covington.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Tell me about, because he's a character in his own right.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  He's a very like pro Trump.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  He's a super Trump.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, super Trump.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Super patriot.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  He turned up for one of the press conferences dressed in colonial clothing.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, talking about a red and blue state and I knew nothing about this, by the way.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Was he the one who insulted you and your father?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, yeah, that same guy.

• 9:39Speaker 00

  So he really took it to an ugly place?

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, ugly place. I feel like trash talking is one thing and then like crossing the line, you know, I feel that that was like crossing the line and yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Do you remember what he said?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Um, kind of, a little bit. My dad passed away and he kind of just like used that to try to settle the fight and, um, yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  He talked about your father being in hell.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  In hell, yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  He's having to drag you down to the seventh circle of hell.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Where your dad, where your dad is, something like that.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  It's pretty low.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  That is pretty low, very low. So, yeah, I was very angry after hearing it. But also I had to remind myself that, well, my coaches, my family reminded me that there's a job to be done, you know, at the end of it and, um, yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Well, when you say that, you had to remind yourself or your coach reminded you, as opposed to what?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  As to that anger, right? Like, it's easy to like compete in anger and we come in anger that kind of, you won't compete at your best, you know?

• 10:38Speaker 00

  You think so?

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100% not because you saw a ton of vision to like try to hurt this person that you're not seeing the full picture, you know? And I feel like me talking to my coaches and my mom and people like that, kind of like calm it down.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  That's interesting because you might, some might think that, what's happened, he's got coffees here, that's right, bring him in.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  I can't wait.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  Where anything goes. It's free form.

• 10:58Speaker 01

  It's a very laid back studio, by the way.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Oh my god.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  You know what Joe Rogan is like, very like, the, the, the, it was like bringing coffees in.

• 11:04Speaker 00

  Did you hear that?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Mid-interview.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  It was a compliment that sounded kind of like an insult.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  No, no, it was a compliment, it was very like.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Wow, I love how unprofessional.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Mid-chat, having a little coffee break.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. I love how low your standards are.

• 11:25Speaker 00

  So basically, you might think that anger could take you into a fifth gear, like of intensity.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Um, no, no, I feel like if I anger that, that limits your view on things, it limits the what you can see come towards you as well. You know, not just you dishing it out, you gotta think as well, you're also taking it. So if you find within a tunnel vision, it takes it away, you know?

• 11:45Speaker 00

  Do you think that's what he was trying to do?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%, 100%.

• 11:49Speaker 00

  Get in your head, throw you off?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, 100%. So like I said, it worked, but it gave me time to sit with my thoughts and talk to people around me, you know?

• 11:59Speaker 00

  It worked in what sense?

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Just like.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  You threw a bottle at him?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  I was, I did.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  Didn't you throw a plastic bottle?

• 12:05Speaker 01

  I did, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  It's not that dangerous.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I was just a fucking glass bottle. But, um, yeah, it's just one of them things that, like I said, it's a very low, low blow and. Never in my career have I done to that, you know, and like talking shit is what it is, is a fight, but going to like dead parents and it just doesn't sit well.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  But we were saying, and he was, he was friendly with Trump. I think he went to the White House even.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  He did, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  And do you think, and so Trump was at that fight to support Colby Covington? Do you think so?

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, yeah. Cause after I beat you, like, like Americans into British back in the day, I'm gonna take it about to Trump the next day and show him what I've done and. But he lost. And like middle of his speech, after he lost, there's that interview in the octagon and Trump started, just walked out and even like sit to like listen to what he's saying. He just left mid-speech. It was funny.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  What, after he lost?

• 13:02Speaker 01

  After he lost.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Do you know that? Cause someone told you or you saw him leaving?

• 13:06Speaker 01

  I saw him leaving. Yeah, I was just talking. I got interviewed first, um, cause I won and, um, when I was leaving, so was Trump, you know, and so Colby was like trying to like talk, but it's what it is.

• 13:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, whatever else you say about Trump, we know that he doesn't like losers, right?

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Exactly, so he proved it that night and it is.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  And there's a few other fighters who are aligned with Trump as well. Are you conscious of that? I can't, I can't name them all.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Um, there's a few fighters that's like, um, Usman did it as well. He's kind of like, likes Trump.

• 13:43Speaker 00

  Kamaru Usman, who's from Nigeria, right?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Nigeria, yeah.

• 13:46Speaker 00

  Spent a lifetime in America. How do you know he likes Trump?

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Cause he posted about it.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Does he?

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, he posted about it and um, Dana White is also close to Trump. It helps to be on the side of that, you know?

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Do you have a good relationship with Dana, Dana White?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, well, as a, as a boss and a worker, yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  As a boss and a worker.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Good, a good relationship enough, you know, cause in the days of business and um, if you win, you win, if you lose, you lose, you know? I know him enough to like, if I'm gonna like call him or something, call.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  You've got his number?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, enough to like do stuff like that, but no, I don't hang out with him every day.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  Do you know him well enough to give me his number?

• 14:23Speaker 01

  That's a joke.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  That's a joke. Uh, you've got a friendly relationship.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Do you feel like he likes you?

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I don't know.

• 14:32Speaker 00

  Hard to tell.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all them things that he's like, yeah.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  It's not really, it's not really that kind of a thing. It's more of a professional.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, more, more of a work thing than actually like a friendship.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Kind of thing.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  For a while, the narrative seemed to be that um, because you didn't trash talk, because you were relatively mild mannered, right? You didn't do unnecessary kind of sledging or whatever you call it.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Um, and quite soft spoken, but that might be holding you back a bit and that maybe they weren't giving you the fights.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Opportunities that I should have got.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, do you think there's anything in this?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Um, maybe a little bit.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Whereas a loud mouth, a large personality like Conor McGregor.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Exactly, maybe a little bit, cause around the same time as Connor was coming on the scene, so was I, you know, so it's just like, everyone was kind of like edging towards that kind of entertainment, which is like Irish talking. Um, and I just kept winning, winning, winning, winning, winning. My thing was just like, oh, I'll prove it in octagon. And just that I'm number one and um, so the opportunities took longer to come to me than it would maybe like someone that kind of that talks, talks a lot and um, but also now looking back on it, I feel like it was perfect timing for me. Maybe I wasn't ready to fight the number two in the world, the number three in the world at, at that time, you know, and um, so maybe it was like a blessing in disguise, you know?

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Just, we should get this out of the way. Like, I was talking to Ian Wright, actually.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  The, the former Arsenal footballer. That was an unnecessary name drop. There we are. I'll make it even better. At the, at the, at the Man of the Year, GQ Man of the Year Awards.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Where we both were. I can't remember if I was being honoured. I might have been.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you were.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Probably was. No. No, and I don't know. We were just talking about this and that, and for some reason UFC came up.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 00

  And he was like, oh no. And I was like, you know, I think actually it's less dangerous in significant ways than boxing. Like, in terms of the long-term outcomes regarding CTE, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, like brain injury. Actually, I don't think it's, in, in, in other respects, I think it's less harmful in the long term than boxing.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  And he was like, Louis, what are you talking about? No, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he, he seemed shocked that I might have that opinion. And he seemed to be of the view that it was extremely, extremely dangerous and damaging.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think from the outside looking in, it looks that way. And it probably is to some people, you know, but as far as like taking head, head damage. Like, for me, for example, I want to spar like once a week, twice a week, if that. And that's only in training camp. As in boxers, because all you can hit is the body or the head.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  You take a lot of trauma in training, let alone.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  With boxing?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, with boxing.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  You think of sparring as being less extreme than actual fighting, but do you think they've.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's harder. Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  There's brain injury. You think there's brain injury that results from sparring?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's where you get your brain injury from, from sparring, you know, especially boxing. Because when you spar, it's like a fight, you know, and they're doing this like two, three times a week, day in, day out. And so I feel like that's the reason why. As MMA, we've got wrestling, which is no head contact. We've got jiu-jitsu, no head contact. You do padwork, stuff like that, no head contact. Then you're on a spar. And within the sparring, you're, you're doing everything. You're wrestling, you're jiu-jitsu, you're boxing. So there's not many headshots you're taking. As in boxing, if it's a 12-round sparring, you're going at it. And it's bigger gloves as well, so you can afford to like let go everything you got, you know, and.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  So maybe that's the reason why.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  That's the other part where people think that the the gloves are to protect your head, but they're not there to protect your fist. So you can actually punch harder with bigger gloves.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Exactly. So boxing, you can, especially like training gloves, sixteen, eighteen ounces, you you can afford to go harder in training, you know, and. Uh, with MMA, if you do MMA sparring, um, if you wear bumper gloves, it's more the smaller gloves, you can't go that hard. Get on like hurt your partner. So you kind of like protect yourself a little bit like that as well.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Uh, as far as you know, um, has any uh UFC fighter ever died as a result of injuries in the ring?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Not that, no, not that, no, no. Cause maybe it's quite, it's quite a new sport as well, so maybe they give it some.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Some MMA fighters have died.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  I've died. I don't know what from, like.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Uh, I think they've been knocked unconscious and then died in hospital.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Have they?

• 18:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, MMA, not UFC specifically, but I think in other, in other leagues and promotions.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  There's people that play football that's died on the pitch and stuff. It's a sport, definitely.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  Probably chess players.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  There're probably people playing, you know what I mean? Playing Monopoly that have died. Slipped on a, you know, like got an infection.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I feel like as long as you you you train smart, I think now we've got enough technology to work around it and enough education to work around. Also, you never be a hundred percent protective yourself, you do the sport at the end of the day, but you can um look at yourself best as possible, you know?

• 19:32Speaker 00

  What do you think has been the most brutal fight that you were in?

• 19:37Speaker 01

  I don't know, probably Kamaru Usman one, the second one. Um, that's because I was in, I was in Utah, um, which is high altitude. Um, I I didn't prepare for it. I also, I trained in Birmingham. So when I went to Utah, my body just went into like. I wasn't getting enough oxygen with my blood, so I felt a bit more slower than what I I would feel like. And um, but we're in brutal for that punishment. It was more brutal for like my, my body was with the rectum here.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  The famous kick that you delivered in the first fight with Usman, right? Where it said that you were basically losing on points.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  And you're in the fifth round. And then this sort of hail Mary kick.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Which knocked his chin sideways.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Out.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Which was unbelievable and he went down.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Clean. At the time, Kamaru Usman was the number one pound-for-pound fighter in the UFC. And he was the world champion, obviously. And so everyone was building him up to be this great, best thing since whatever. And I was, I was number two or three at the time in the rankings and fought for the bout. And yeah, it was one of the things where I went to Utah. He trains in Salt Lake, I think, or Colorado, one of them, which is altitude. So his body is completely used to fighting at altitude. And he was winning the fight up until round five and knocked him out, you know? I won round one, he won two, three and four, and I knocked him out in five.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Did you, was that planned?

• 21:06Speaker 01

  The knockout?

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was not waiting to round five.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Why didn't you do it in the second round?

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Not, not, not waiting to round five, it was planned. But the technique was planned in training camp.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  Just to ask, so what, I mean, to ask a silly question. Why didn't you do it a bit earlier?

• 21:26Speaker 01

  I didn't see it. I didn't, I didn't see the opening for it.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  You didn't see the opening?

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't see the opening for it. It's one of the, for like boxing and MMA and like just fighting, it's like chess, right? There's moves that you might got in your head that you planned for, but the opportunity for it to land is not there yet.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  We noticed in training camp that when he was powering the punch, which is when someone's punching towards your face, you're kind of like,

• 21:49Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Punch, push it away. It was like powering and moving his head on the outside. And then I thought, my coach was like, oh, if you go the same side kick as well as a punch, you will land it. And that's what I did. So in the fifth round, my brother shouted like cross head kick. So when I threw the cross, he did exactly what, what he would do, which is.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Cross is a, is a straight right?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Straight. For me, it's straight left, because I'm southpaw.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  I'm left-handed. So I threw my straight left. As I went to power it, my leg come around and knocked him out, you know?

• 22:22Speaker 00

  So he went in the direction your kit was coming from.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Coming from, yeah, yeah, yeah. As in boxing, you can't do that because you haven't got one arm, right? Right side, so ever may you got enough technique to mix it up, you know?

• 22:35Speaker 00

  How, like, okay, again, I'm trying to make it, well, it's gonna be a bit basic, but here we go. How much of you in going to a fight, to what extent is fear in your mind? Fear of not just, not so much losing, but just fear of pain and physical injury?

• 22:51Speaker 01

  I know, I got no, there's no fear of pain or injury. My fears are, oh, so you want to come out healthy and come out the way you went in? Went into it. That's not, that's not in my mind at all. I think what's in my mind is fear of losing, you know?

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Really?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, the fear of losing, the fear of not performing to my ability is my fear.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Because it's one of them things that, nothing matters until the actual night you're fighting, right? Like, you can feel great in training camp, you can do everything, get up early, run, you can do everything you need to do. But come fight night is the only time it matters, right? You know, everyone judge you off this one night, not how great you looked in training camp. So that's my fear really, just making sure I'm up to par come fight night, you know?

• 23:35Speaker 00

  And when you're in, and when you're actually, when the fight's going on, you're not thinking, oh, I want this to be over?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Nah, nah, nah, nah.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Really?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Once it in there, you're in there, you know, you're like, you're going to, you're trying your best to win. You're trying your best to win and that's just what it is. There's not hard feelings, like going in there, you know? I'm not getting like angry, trying to kill him or you trying to kill me. I think we're both just trying our best. Using our techniques that we've learnt, using our game plan to try to defeat each other. And that, that's basically what it is, you know?

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  So yeah, just, I don't think fear, it's more just like nervous of the, of the crowd, of the occasion, of the build up. You get nerves, you get like anxiety, you get everything, which is normal, you're a human being. But I think when you're, when you're younger, it's harder to control it. The more you're, the more you do it, the more you can control your feelings, you can, you can tell yourself it's, it's normal, you know? And yeah, it's fine.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Uh, obviously you're coming off a loss.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  It's not the elephant in the room, but it's a fact of the matter.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Um, but that was your first loss in how many?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  In almost 10 years.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  In almost 10 years?

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, Manchester for Bilal Mohammed, um, at the time he was the.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  July, was it this year?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  July, this year, yeah. He was the number one contender at the time, um, to fight and, um, he's on at like 5:00 in the morning in Manchester.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  5:00 in the morning?

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, in Manchester, that was crazy. Um, I asked, I asked the UFC and they said, um, to do with the pay-per-view in America to try and line it up so they can also watch it.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Cause at 5:00 in the morning in Manchester, it's midnight in New York.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  And 9:00 PM in California. So it's perfect for the American audience.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Exactly, for, for the UK fans.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  You are welterweight, right?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Welterweight, yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  How much do you weigh?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Um, when I'm, when I'm fighting 77, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make 77.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  But in normal, normal time.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Right now?

• 25:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  I'm like 90, 91. Yeah.

• 25:31Speaker 00

  That's a big difference.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  About two stone, yeah. At least I'll go up and down.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  Two stone?

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  That's wild. And you're six feet two?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Six one.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Six one, cause.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  I'm 6'2" though.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  We're in the same, the, the internet said 6'2".

• 25:45Speaker 01

  I am 6'2".

• 25:46Speaker 00

  And I paid attention because we're in the same weight class. Why is that funny?

• 25:53Speaker 00

  We're in the same weight, I'm six feet two.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, weighing.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  I'm weigh 80 kilos, it's 177 pounds.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  I don't know, I've never cut weights because I've never actually had a fight, but I think I could get down a bit.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Have you never had a fight like in school, nothing?

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Not really, no. Not really, I know.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  In your twenties?

• 26:12Speaker 00

  Not even teens, not even in the playground. I've been punched a couple of times.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  Um, but I didn't give much back.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Didn't punch back, fair play.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  Not really. Well, is it though?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  It isn't.

• 26:22Speaker 00

  Is it, is it, is, is that a kind of, do I, am I a role model, like in, in terms of non-violence? Or am I, have I just pussied out of every encounter?

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Probably pussied out of it, but it's okay. It's all right to pussy out sometimes. No, no.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  What the hell?

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Not every fight, not every fight needs to report.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  I don't think I, I think I like to think that I've de- successfully de-escalated.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  By getting punched?

• 26:46Speaker 00

  By being, by getting punched and saying, fair enough, here's my lunch money. Now leave me alone. Um. When was the last time you had a fight outside of the ring? Not count, because you were punched by one of the other.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Must have been.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  Must have been. But that was slightly different.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 00

  But have you had an actual fight out? I don't want to get you in trouble.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  No, no, um, years, when I was younger.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Really?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Not, not, not since.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  Back in the day, if you had a fight, what would it be about?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Um, just like being on the road, you know, it's like, like postcodes, gangs, friends, the same.

• 27:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Every fucking British boy.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  Really?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the UK as well, there's not, there's not, not much to do here, you know, like for a little boy to do, like when you're like 15, 14, 15, 16. There's not much for, for you to do apart from hang, hang out on the street. Then the more you hang out on the street, the more you start getting into trouble with your friends and then it escalates into whatever it escalates into, you know?

• 27:46Speaker 00

  Oh, we're gonna, we're gonna come on to that. I know, I keep pushing it away.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  No, it's all good.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  Um, okay.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  Okay, are we gonna touch this one? Andrew Tate, are we gonna, are we gonna go there? Basically, you, Andrew Tate, you had a dinner with him?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  It's kind of like Louis through a podcast bingo. Andrew Tate has to come up.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Trump, Andrew Tate.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Andrew Tate, Trump, Woody Allen. Has Woody Allen ever come to a fight?

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Andrew Tate, what was that, what was that all about, the link up?

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Um, I was in Dubai, um, one of my friends is, is good pals of him. He invited me out for dinner and.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Were you there to fight or just for social?

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Holiday, yeah, I was there on holiday and, um, he said, I will go for dinner tonight with, um, Andrew and like, uh, you come in? I said, yeah, I'll come and that was it.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Was Andrew Tate famous at that time?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, that was like the peak of him, I would say.

• 28:38Speaker 00

  What, before pandemic or during pandemic? He sort of peaked 2020, 21, right?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so, I think so.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  It might have been.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  He was quite popular though, he was.

• 28:46Speaker 00

  You were aware of his content?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Undertaker by then.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  What did you think of the content?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Um, something that it says makes sense, something that it says doesn't make sense. You know, so I feel like, um, I don't know, see each other, I don't know.

• 28:58Speaker 00

  It's a mix.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  And sometimes the stuff that's more provocative, you figure it's a way of gaming the algorithm, getting eyeballs by being outrageous.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  I think he knows that as well, you know, I think he knows that he has to say some outlandish things to attract the, the, the masses, you know? Um, and that's, that's what he did. But within that attracting the masses, he's also trying to spill what he, what he trying to say. Um, to his group of fans and people, you know, so, yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 00

  So he hadn't been accused of the serious stuff that he's been accused of, no?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  That's years.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  Anything, are we going to say anything about that? Was it friendly? Like, did you like his vibe?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  He was a normal, like this, he was just like a normal guy. We were at dinner.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  Was Tristan his brother there?

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, both, we both did.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  They always roll together. Any others?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Um, who else was there? Him, yeah, a few girls with him. Um, talk about fighting, cause he used to, he used to kickboxing as well.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, to quite a high standard, I think.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, from what I believe and, um, talk about just like life and that was it. One of the separate ways.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  You didn't get any squiffy vibes? You didn't feel like?

• 30:00Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, definitely not.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  It seemed all on the other.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  A normal, like going out with my mates, it's a normal night out.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  In the wild.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  That's not gonna make any clickbait.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  What else are we gonna do? Um, so the most recent one, the, the loss, Al Mohammed.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  We were saying it was five in the morning. One of the contentions is you were tired because of the, the time, because it was so early.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  Is that true?

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Um, not physically tired, mentally. It's like, it's like, you know, when you wake up at like five in the morning to get up, to go like run or train or whatever you feel, you don't feel like, you don't feel your best. That's what I felt. I felt like I was up at five AM to go train.

• 30:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, it just happens.

• 30:40Speaker 00

  What's your view of the fight? I mean, I, the fight was, it went five rounds.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  He kept taking you down, right? And it was said that. He was punching faster, that you, that it was said, some said that you looked a little slow.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. I felt it.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Do you buy any of that?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I felt it, I felt, I don't know, I can't explain it to this day, like, what it was, it felt like,

• 31:00Speaker 01

  even I leaned up to it, I spoke to like a sleep specialist to say, what's the best way to adjust my body, because normally, from my whole 32 years, 33 years, I've been getting up at like, going to bed at like 11 o'clock, like a normal sleep schedule, you know, but this time I had to like completely switch my body from performing at high, at high intensity at like 2, 3 in the morning and sleeping in the day, so it was just like a bit weird, so I spoke to him and he said, if you don't get a good night's sleep, it slows your, your reaction time down a lot, you know, and, yeah, I felt it and that's what it was, you know.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  Did you see Dana White's comments afterwards?

• 31:42Speaker 01

  A little bit, what one?

• 31:45Speaker 00

  Where he was saying, well, obviously it wasn't a barnstormer.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, I mean, hmm, you know, it was what it was, like, he was sort of, basically, he seemed to be saying it was a boring fight.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was a boring fight. For me, it was a fucking, it was a fucking boring fight.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  And you were in the ring.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was just like, I don't know what they did, they did it before at 5am when Bisping fought in Manchester and I don't, I don't get why they did it, because realistically, to build a sport in Europe or over here, it should be unlike prime time for the UK fans to enjoy it, to build a sport up more, you know, because not many people wait up

• 32:25Speaker 01

  to watch 5am cards, it wouldn't in Vegas, not many people do it, you know, and can I record it, I, I record it and watch it in the morning, I'm on my coffee, you know, I don't really stay up no more to watch them.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Were there people, there were people in the crowd?

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was sold out.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Tens of thousands or whatever.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, like 20, 20, the

• 32:41Speaker 00

  Must have been weird, like 4, 5 in the morning, anyone comes out and it's like daylight.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  The next morning, so strange.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Well, if it's not a rude question, how much did you get paid for the fight with Mohammed, Bilal Mohammed?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Um, in the mills.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  Do you get less if you don't win? Is there a win bonus?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Not on my contract, but when I first started out in UFC, yeah, half a purse. But also I got to a level where now my money's my money, you know?

• 33:13Speaker 00

  The money's the money.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the same.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Like, one of the contentions about UFC, and I don't, I hope this isn't too controversial, you can dodge it if you want, like, one of the ideas that has been put about is that, oh, well, they've got such a stronghold on the sport that actually they can pay fighters more or less what they like, and especially those that are coming up, right? Do you think there's anything in that? I mean, there's about, what, there's about 500 fighters under contract, right?

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably there probably is something within it, you know, but like I said, in boxing, if you're not signed under Eddie and Frank Warren, you find a white collar boxing shows anyway to get to a level where you can make your money, right? I feel like UFC is pretty similar.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  When you first started out, what were you getting paid for those, for those UFC, first couple of UFC fights?

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Um, for my first fight, it was like 12 and 12 or 15 and 15, something like that, like 30k.

• 34:09Speaker 00

  For each or there was 15?

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Nah, per fight.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  Per fight, 15 per fight? And then you've got all the fees, like you've got to pay your coaches and managers and whatnot?

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Not much.

• 34:19Speaker 00

  Support personnel, so you can't really make a living like that?

• 34:23Speaker 01

  No, by the time I was only like, what, 20 years old, so to get like, I fought, I fought three times a year, so let's say I made like for the year 150 grand. At 20 years old, I was paying all your fucking fees and everything else. At the time, it was the right money, at the time.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  At the time, it felt okay?

• 34:39Speaker 01

  At the time, it was okay, you know, because I was young, I was excited to be there. I was, I was happy to work my way up to get to where I'm at now, you know?

• 34:47Speaker 00

  I think there's some ex-fighters who are suing UFC, is that right?

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  What's that all about?

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Um, for similar, the same thing, when I play in the market, you know?

• 34:58Speaker 00

  And they're saying that there's back pay to all these fighters that fought between, whatever it was, 2010 and something?

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, when the first, UFC first started off, I think.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, and to the tune of like, I think 1. something billion?

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know what's going on with that case at the moment, I haven't really looked into it really, so I don't know.

• 35:17Speaker 00

  But you feel well, you feel well paid?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  You do, you know, like you always want more money, like everyone does.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  Would you make most of your money from fighting or from sponsorships and deals?

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Both, both, I feel.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  It's not the one or the other?

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Nah, nah, I feel like just both. I was fighting, you get paid more for fighting, but my sponsorships is also good, good money, you know?

• 36:04Speaker 00

  Okay, I think we should talk about, I mean, we've touched on this, but kind of coming up and, you know, you've got this extraordinary origin story to do with being born in Jamaica and then, well, better that it should come from you really. Like basically, what was your situation?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. My mom had me, she was about 15 years old, 16 years old.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  My dad at the time was involved in gangs and he was like, became one of the leaders in my, we call it lanes, it was basically like streets.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  They called him the general?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  General, yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 00

  Or just general?

• 36:48Speaker 01

  General, yeah. So growing up as a child, I've always known, I've always known this, you know, like my dad, he wasn't.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  How was it explained to you?

• 37:00Speaker 01

  It weren't, it weren't explained to me, it just what it was in the era, everyone, the way they treated him, the way they treated me, the way they talk of him, that's just what it was. And at the time, when you're, when you're young, you kind of take pride in it, you know, my dad is who he is and, you know, you kind of like walk with that, that in you, you know, and, yeah. We started got murders when I was 13, you know?

• 37:25Speaker 00

  First, the first thing that happens is he moves to the UK, right?

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he immigrated to the UK.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Had your parents split at that point?

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, there was split at that point and he immigrated to the UK on his own, got remarried in the UK. And then he brought over me, my mum and my brother Fabian, which competes now in the mixed martial arts as well.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  He's your younger brother?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  My younger brother, yeah, Fabian. So he brought us.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Brother by the same mother?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Same mother, same father. Brought us to Birmingham and then, yeah, I've been in Birmingham ever since.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  Was he living in?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  London.

• 38:01Speaker 00

  In London?

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, in Croydon, in London. Yeah, yeah. So he, that, that was.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  But even though your parents had separated, he brought your mum over?

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  How does that work?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it to his wife, that I bring my ex-girlfriend to, to.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  Was he still making visits? Was he?

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, he was still like involved in my life.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  And in her life? Like, was it like she was one of his significant others?

• 38:26Speaker 01

  That was probably his first love and he came to UK for a better opportunity. And he thought, I can't leave my family. Most men would, you know, for, I was leaving my family in Jamaica and have a new family in the UK. But he thought, I ain't doing that. I'm a, I have my family in the UK and also bring my family from Jamaica and give a better opportunity to achieve something, you know?

• 38:47Speaker 00

  And he was still involved in, you know, stuff he wasn't supposed to be, right?

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, definitely, definitely.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Which means what? Like, was it, was it, I mean, forgive me if this is intrusive and, and if you can't talk about it, obviously I respect that. Like, he was dealing drugs?

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Drugs, guns, they're fucking do a lot. Yeah, he's involved, you know, and like I said, I grew up knowing this, you know, this was just like, this or this, you know what I mean?

• 39:13Speaker 00

  Was he, was he in your life much?

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Up to the point where, where he died, yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  Coming over to the UK from Jamaica, was that a big change?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a shock, it was freezing, we came in the winter, it was cold. I was never seen lots of white people, I thought, that's mad, you know, I was like nine years old. I was a different language, he spoke patois.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Um, so he had like broken English and when you went to school, you just like, you get fighting in school because all the kids just kind of like pick on you because you spoke um, patois, you know.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  Really, can you still speak patois?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Um, a little bit, a little bit, if I speak Jamaican, I can, if I talk like by myself, it's hard. We've got like the Jamaican person, I can do it, definitely.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna speak patois, don't worry. I would love to throw some patois, um.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I listened to a bit of reggae, so I'm, it's all, I'm on the verge, but I don't think I'm gonna do it. I don't think I'm gonna do it, guys, it'd be too cringe. Um, you said your dad got killed, right?

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  Uh, can you remember where you were when you heard the news?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  At the time, we were living in Aston in Birmingham, um, in like a two-bedroom house. Um, it was like two, three in the morning, my mom got a phone call. Um, I was, I was in my room, my brother, um, I was through the walls, Gera crying, so I thought, oh fuck. I thought, there's never good news at like two in the morning, um, then she came and told us, yeah, what happened.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  I've read that you said, um, that at the time it was oddly unemotional, that you feel it was maybe not as shocking as you might think it would be, is that, is that right?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, not as shocking, because the other thing, I grew up around this like every day, I've seen, when, when I was young, I've seen a lot of people die, you know what I mean, from gang violence and from being on street stuff, you know, I've seen a lot.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  In front of you?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Not in front of me, but I've known a lot of people have been killed.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  Really?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  By the gun or by stabbing or something.

• 41:22Speaker 00

  In Jamaica?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  In Jamaica, so when I was young in Jamaica, um. The the beef was basically garrisons versus garrisons, basically. Uh so this gang versus that gang and they're literally like like rose apart from each other. Um so that's where I I seen a lot, you know, um not just me, the whole community, this is this is normal.

• 41:45Speaker 00

  It wasn't because your dad was was was doing what he was doing.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Nah, cause even, I was, he's doing what he's doing, but so is the other gang as well. They're trying to kill them, they're trying to kill them. So it's just like, this is what it is.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  It's an accepted part of life.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  For life and um and that that was the norm, you know, when when it's time for. But they go for like seasons, uh one, they go to parts where like.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  There's like wars going on, then there's there's seasons where there's nothing going on, you're sort of chilled, you can enjoy your life, and then there's seasons where there's like. Active war going on and that environment breeds that kind of thing, you know, there's there's not many. Poverty ridden area where there's no crime.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  You know, cause if you can't feed your family and your. Your kids and you see your kids starving and you have to do something, you know, and there's no opportunities, there's no signing on to get money, there's no government help, there's nothing. You like, see if you go get it or that's it, you know. So growing up like this, you're kind of like. It's weird, cause I got a little boy now that's like eleven years old and I couldn't I couldn't imagine him even like knowing that, you know, but I've. I've I I I was around it all, you know, and um so when when he did get murdered, I I. I was upset, obviously, cause he's your dad, but it's it was, I don't know, it's hard to explain it. It's one of the things that you kind of like, you normalize.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Stuff like that, you know, and it's mad, it's crazy, you know.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Then, so when you come to Birmingham, uh it's pretty different, but nevertheless, there's obviously um still, you know. Issues, there's things going on, uh you've spoken a little bit about getting slightly involved, like I don't know how you would put it, but. That there was a time when you might have been at risk of following the path.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  That your dad had been on.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. Um I think once my dad died, when I was thirteen years old, um I kind of went down. That same similar path, you know, we're getting involved in gangs and um drugs and stuff like that, you know, and um. Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  With friends in the area?

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Friends in the area where I grew up, friends in school. Um, at the time in Birmingham, there's like a big, there's like two massive gangs, like Johnins and Burger Bars. There's like these two big gangs.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  Burger Boys, did you say?

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  And the Johnsons.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  At the time, back in the day.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  Those are two gangs. Are they um, black gangs, white gangs?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Black.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  Really?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, all black and.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  And what were, um, were you affiliated with the Johnsons or the Burger Boys?

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Um, I weren't affiliated as much with them. Um, Johnsons, because my school, where I went to in Aston was where it started. So obviously, he's around it. When he's leaving school, they'll all be outside school, hanging out and um, like robbing kids and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, taking their phones.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  They were teenagers or older men?

• 44:36Speaker 01

  You got like, you, the.

• 44:37Speaker 00

  Or everything?

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, everything.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  Right. So you were saying how you kind of got slightly beguiled into it?

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, going down the wrong path.

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Your dad had died, is that what you said? And then, and then what happened?

• 44:48Speaker 01

  I think I was kind of like blaming the world for what happened to my dad and um, I was going on a similar path. For getting involved in, in, in, in stuff like that, similar stuff that he was getting involved in.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  He was thirteen, fourteen, fifteen?

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Fifteen, sixteen.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Sixteen?

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I got involved mixed martial arts at seventeen, so yeah, so I feel about from thirteen to about eighteen, I would say, you know? He's kind of on the wrong path, yeah.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  Did you get arrested?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Been arrested, not been to jail.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Um, been arrested like carrying knives and stuff like that, but I've never been to like prison, you know?

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Right? I mean, because actually, like, fighting's fighting, uh, but a knife is, is, is obviously next level.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, hundred percent. I feel like not, like, carrying a knife, uh, is our insecurity, right? It's like, you, you, you don't know how to protect, protect yourself. With just your hands, you know? So I feel like most kids that do it to, to do out, out of fear. Like, someone else is carrying a knife, I need to carry one. Or if a fight breaks out and I've, he's got a knife, I haven't, I'm fucked. You know what I mean? So it also depends on, on the individual, who is willing to do it. I think most of it is our insecurity. That's it.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  You were, were you known, leaving the knife to one side, were you known as a good fighter?

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  At what point did you realise, actually, maybe I've got something?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  I'm from school, you know, I've always, I'm the one that always, I'm the friend that like, if you're next to me, you're gonna fight, because you know, I won't leave you, you know, and so I had the name Rocky from school.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Your fight name was Rocky?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  From school, yeah, yeah, and then it translates into MMA, you know.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Crazy, yeah.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Would you ever go looking for a fight? Like a recreational fight, you know, like a fight for fun?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  A good straightener, nothing for fun.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  A straightener?

• 46:46Speaker 01

  We call it a straightener, yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  Go on, that's interesting. Good straightener.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  A good old straightener.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 46:54Speaker 00

  Like, meet you after school for a straightener?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  Wow. Am I the only one who doesn't know about this? Why was it called a straightener?

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Just a straightener, just one on one, you versus me. No weapons, just hands, and just in the field, in the park, and go, eh, yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  I'd never had a straightener. Never too old to start. I'm ready for a straightener, for the over 50s. And then would you, what would like, you would have rounds, or you'd just go at it?

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Um, no, it'd be like, it was something that sets it off.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  Can you remember any reasons why you would have had a straightener?

• 47:31Speaker 01

  I don't know, it could be anything, like, or postcode, or...

• 47:36Speaker 00

  Could be over a...

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, or postcode.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  The whole thing about postcodes is so weird.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's stupid.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  It's weird, because... It's literally just a way for people to deliver post, you know what I mean?

• 47:48Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? And then it's become like something that you would kill and die for?

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is fucked in...

• 47:52Speaker 00

  That is so messed up.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  And it's weird, because...

• 47:54Speaker 00

  And it's just not even like, it's like, NW6 till I die. Dude, that is just... You know what I mean?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, growing up now, like, with a wider view on the world, it is weird. By the time I truly believed it, like, it truly...

• 48:08Speaker 00

  What was your postcode?

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Um, I was group editor, so it's like B23.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Did that mean something, B23?

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's like your area, right? Which is weird, because my mom...

• 48:18Speaker 00

  Have you got a tattoo of B23?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  No, I'm not committed to it. Not a tattoo on my skin, but, uh, but at the time, though, when you're living in it. Like you actually believe what you're saying to yourself.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  What happens if you move, then you do switch allegiances to the new postcode?

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Um, nah, nah, nah, nah. Your friends are your friends then.

• 48:38Speaker 00

  Friends are your friends till you die, so it's just you happen to be residing in the wrong postcode undercover, doing deep cover.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Like looking back now is is is fucking crazy, but um when you're younger with a young mentality and your friends are doing the same thing in that same environment. I think you you you're more likely to be a part of your environment. It's like same as Jamaica, you know, like there's. The people have died over, they probably don't know the reason why it started and they've died over it, you know, and um so, yeah.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  So when you, in terms of getting out of the lifestyle insofar as you were in it, right, how did you kind of, was there a moment, was it going to the gym? Or what was the sequence of events that led you to sort of straighten up and fly right?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  The gym, I think I went to the gym, you know, um one day my, I got arrested one day and then there was a gym getting built in the area. Uh when I got arrested, my mum was like crying, it's like, why are you like?

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Was that for the knife that arrested?

• 49:38Speaker 01

  One of them, yeah, yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  How many times were you arrested?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  A few times.

• 49:42Speaker 00

  Always for a knife?

• 49:43Speaker 01

  Knife or fighting.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Really?

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Um.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  I'm gonna ask you a question.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  You don't have to answer.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  No, I didn't, no.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  What?

• 49:50Speaker 01

  You said you'd stab somebody.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  How did you know I was gonna ask that?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Because that's all the questions leading after that, no.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Would you say if you did?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 00

  That must be a load off your mind in a way, like you don't have to carry that.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent, a hundred percent, definitely.

• 50:17Speaker 00

  Have you ever badly hurt someone?

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Um, I've been in situations, you know, um, yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  I've been in situations, not sure if that's an answer.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  You've been in situations, like I said, this is the environment you grew up in and you're limited mentality in life.

• 50:37Speaker 00

  I don't mean to sound, it sounds all weighted in the moment, I don't mean to sound like you.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  I've been in situations.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Where you've had to hurt someone quite badly.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Protect myself, yeah, yeah, I've got a free, free mind and.

• 50:49Speaker 00

  Good, you've got a clear conscience.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Clear conscience.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  Uh, so you would say you got arrested then, so we were gonna get to the gym, your mum was crying.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  So yeah, there was a gym getting built in, in, in my era, in the era that's called UTC, Ultimate Trainer Centre.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  She was like, oh, you should try this out, like try, you wanna do kickboxing, let's go try this gym out. Went up there and inquired about membership, it was sixty pound a month, at the time I knew she couldn't afford sixty quid a month and I was to pay for the house and for the kids and yeah, so but she, somehow she did it.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  She paid because she felt.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  To save her son's life, right, it's like.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  To save her son's life.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Just the way, the path they're going down.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  She could see it happening.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, you can like, now with my son getting involved in something, I'd be able to see it because I've got years of experience.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  You didn't have any convictions though, right, you'd only been arrested.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, never.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  Nothing went to trial or.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  No, no, I've been to court and stuff, but I've never, I've always.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  Beat the charge?

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Beat the case, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I feel like for her, she was just thinking, oh, like, what more can I do, you know, like, to get my son to fix up. Cause at the time when I was getting in trouble, so was my brother, you know, he was also falling down the same.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Same path.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Path as me, you know, he's copying his big brother to be involved in, you gotta think, when, as an immigrant, when, when you're a single parent household, your mum has to work. When she works, there's a lot of time for you to go, go out, cause you're, you're home by yourself, you know.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  You weren't, at that time, it wasn't to do with dealing, like you weren't like on the, on the career part, it wasn't like at the start of like, oh well, maybe we can sell a bit of product, yeah, in the local area.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Um, no.

• 52:35Speaker 00

  Not at that stage.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  No, we got, we got to that stage, but no, at the time, like I said, you're young, fourteen, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  But then later on, it became more like.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Cause then you want, you want money, you want.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  You need a bit of money, so you get a hookup.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  You want clothes, you want tracksuits, you want trainers, you want, you know what I mean?

• 52:54Speaker 01

  And then you do what you can do to provide, you know, to help your mum out as well.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  So then you got, your own record is described, you say, I can't get the quote exactly right, but it's along the lines of that UFC became your dad or MMA became your dad?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Not my dad, I felt, no, never.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Became like a father figure in a way?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  It came out of positive, positive reinforcement in my life, you know? I feel like when I got into mixed martial arts, the, the voice that a dad would probably give to a son, that I'd give to my son, I was getting that from mixed martial arts.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  Was there a specific trainer?

• 53:31Speaker 01

  I think there's one guy that stands out the more than others, which is, his name was Mark. He was the owner of the gym. At the time, he was, he was the one that like saying to me like, like, you're good, like you can do, you can do it, you know? And at one point, he was paid to like take me around the world, like took me to Vegas to watch, watch like UFC and, yeah, and other places that when I was young, I think.

• 53:56Speaker 00

  Out of his own money, he took you to Vegas?

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Out of his own money, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  Because of the promise that he saw in you?

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  Had you started fighting at that point?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Um, I was, I was, but I was like amateur, you know? But you could tell from how good I was doing in amateurs, how, how good I am, you know?

• 54:15Speaker 00

  Was that your first time in the US?

• 54:17Speaker 01

  First ever time in the US, yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  That must have been quite an eye opener.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was crazy. It was mad.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  I mean, Vegas is weird enough, even if you've lived in America, let alone, you know, coming from Birmingham.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. It's come from Jamaica and going to Birmingham, going to Vegas. You're just like a.

• 54:36Speaker 00

  It's like Oz, isn't it? It's like.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  It blows, blows your mind. It's like, wow, yeah.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  It's like the capital of the American subconscious, I sometimes think, you know? All, all of those appetites, the, you know, money, sex, you know, whatever that fighting, entertainment impulses.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  All in Vegas.

• 54:53Speaker 00

  It's all there, you know, with those extraordinary buildings, pyramids and skyscrapers. Was it a UFC fight that you saw, did you say?

• 55:01Speaker 01

  So, yeah, one of, one of my teammates is Vaughn Lee. He was fighting in San Jose. So we flew to Vegas for, to train or something. And then from Vegas, we drove to San Jose.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  That's quite a long drive.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  A long, long drive.

• 55:16Speaker 00

  So, so that was your first exposure to American culture and to, and to a live UFC event? And then did you get this, you got the taste for it or?

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Um.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  You already had the taste for it.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  My first ever UFC event was in Birmingham.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  Really?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  So the UFC came to Birmingham back in the day. I was like 18 probably, 19. Um, I remember going there and I was like on the nosebleeds like far.

• 55:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Um, I remember going there thinking I'd love to like to do it, you know, I'd love to like achieve it and um. Yeah, I can win the world.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  So that was the big life changing thing. How's your energy by the way? Are we all right for time? You doing okay, Leon?

• 55:56Speaker 01

  I'm good, yeah.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  I'm gonna have a sip of water.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Nah, it's all right.

• 55:58Speaker 00

  Do you?

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  You're all right. What's so funny? It's not that funny.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  You got like very like dry humour. But I don't think it being funny.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I'm trying.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  But that makes it funny?

• 56:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I try to. I do my best. Donald Trump, we've done Trump. Who's the, who's the greatest, uh, present company excluded? Who's the best UFC fighter of all time?

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Um, for me, I'll, I'll say John Jones.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  John Jones.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  He's fighting this weekend. Um, my second best is Absinthe Silva.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  Who's the worst of all time?

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Bilal.

• 56:39Speaker 00

  Wow, he's a baby. Bilal. Wow, trash talking. It was weird how he said, um, oh, I'm not, he wasn't, he said a view like he wasn't champion very long. So I don't need to, to fight him again. Did you see him say that?

• 56:53Speaker 01

  No, but.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, Bilal said that.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  He disrespected you.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  He did.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  I'm stoking the beef.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm gonna set you on him.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, let, let me get a go like.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Let you lose.

• 57:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's not, he's not all that. You want another piece of him or not really?

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%. I love to run it back.

• 57:06Speaker 00

  Why wouldn't they just let you fight him again?

• 57:08Speaker 01

  No more time.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  Do you think if you, if, it's not like boxing where they give you a rematch clause?

• 57:12Speaker 01

  No, no, no. But I'll, I'll, I'll literally run it back again, like next year.

• 57:16Speaker 00

  Where are you in the rankings?

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Number, so one.

• 57:20Speaker 00

  You think if I worked as hard as you, I'd be as good as you?

• 57:23Speaker 01

  You? Probably not.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  This guy. No, I would think I was kind of joking because I'm a 54 year old man with a big nose. They say a big nose is a liability in

• 57:35Speaker 01

  To get broke, yeah, get broken quite easily.

• 57:37Speaker 00

  Chris Eubank told me that.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's easier to break, like the straight nose is like snap straight away, no?

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Steady on. That sounds like a threat. That sounded like a, did you just threaten me?

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Steady on.

• 57:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, you just threatened me. You'd snap my nose like a twig?

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Not me. I'm saying it's easier.

• 57:55Speaker 00

  Someone would.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  What, you work hard. I think there's more to it than that though. There's some physical endowments though, aren't there? That you like speed, agility, strength. I don't know, like, are you conscious of having a physical skill set?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think naturally I'm like a great athlete anyway, you know, like in schools to play football, basketball, athletics, travelling.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  To quite a high standard.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, running, sprinting.

• 58:18Speaker 00

  Football?

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Football, all in school.

• 58:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  But you had, you were basically pretty good in all the categories.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, in all sports, all of them athletic.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Do you train when you're not building up to a fight?

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 00

  Just like, did you train today?

• 58:31Speaker 01

  I'm trying to, when I get back tonight, yeah.

• 58:33Speaker 00

  What will you do?

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Tonight I'm just going to do run, run and like just lift. Then tomorrow.

• 58:39Speaker 00

  Lift some weights?

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  What can you bench?

• 58:43Speaker 01

  I don't really bench as much. It's more just like.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  I can bench.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  And there you go. What can you bench?

• 58:48Speaker 00

  Wait, steady. What did you?

• 58:52Speaker 00

  You said, no, you can't. I heard you. I said, I can bench.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  You're never the fighter for your life, is it?

• 58:57Speaker 00

  I've never had a fight.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Never.

• 58:58Speaker 00

  No.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  What can you push? What are you benching?

• 59:00Speaker 00

  Benching? What do you think? I don't know. What is benching? Is benching, what is it when you lie down and you push things up like that?

• 59:11Speaker 00

  It's chest, isn't it? I realise I'm not an athlete.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  No, that's fine. It's okay.

• 59:16Speaker 00

  I think, I actually think, but I don't think training is just for athletes. I think everyone should train. Do I sound defensive? How many pushups do you think you could do?

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Within just.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Within, like without, well, before maxing out?

• 59:29Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Well, you've never got that far. Like a thousand?

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Nah, not a thousand. Without stopping?

• 59:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, without stopping.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Probably like a, I don't know, 100, 100 and something.

• 59:38Speaker 00

  What? That's a lot. I think I could do 30.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Go on.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  Do you want me to?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Go on, you cannot do 30 pressups.

• 59:45Speaker 00

  But it wouldn't be on camera. Would you be able to see it?

• 59:47Speaker 01

  You cannot do 30 pressups.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  You can not do 30 press ups, no. Really? I'm not doubting you. Can you see me if I do it?

• 59:59Speaker 01

  You're not doing 30, nah.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  I said 20, yeah, it cycles, that's his legs though. Go, let's go, chest to mat, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 10 more, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, let's go.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  I give it, yeah?

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  That was so easy.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  That was so easy.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  Okay, so here I am, back in my normal home, the beautiful Spotify studios. What did you think? Impressed? What was striking, listening to it, was how low Leon's estimate was for what he thought I could do. Did he say he thought I might manage 10? So that was obviously satisfying, doing 35, and that's a PB, incidentally. I think in the moment of adrenaline and wanting to show off, I got some kind of super strength in it. It powered me into an extra five. So if you said 35 push-ups, then mark your card, correct.

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  For those keeping LTP bingo cards, Mark Andrew Tate and Trump. I don't know if Trump's actually one of the entries on the card, is it? And Woody Allen. You can, I did mention Woody Allen, even though it went nowhere. There's me being glib about serious things, which is kind of my brand. A quick clarification: I mentioned that some ex UFC fighters are suing the UFC for having a monopoly over the MMA market at the time of recording. A settlement of $375 million is subject to court approval. We'll include a link in the show notes for more information about that. MMA deaths were mentioned. There have been at least seven fighters killed in the ring or cage during MMA events since

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  2019, and another nine more have reportedly died at unsanctioned cage fighting cards at the same time. I think that's it. Credits: the producer was Millie Chu, the assistant producer was Amelia Gill, the production manager was Francesca Bassett, and the executive producer was Aaron Fellows. The music in this series was by Miguel de Oliveira. This is a Mindhouse production for Spotify.