JRE MMA Show #185 with Ethyn Ewing

Joe sits down with Ethyn Ewing, a professional mixed martial artist competing in the UFC’s bantamweight division.www.professorfinessermma.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Speaker 02

  My man, good to see you.

• 0:13Speaker 03

  Glad to be here.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  I like your shirt.

• 0:15Speaker 03

  I appreciate it.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  Professor Finesse, is that your Professor Finesse line?

• 0:19Speaker 03

  This is one of my designs of my Professor Finesse line. Got the cross guard there.

• 0:24Speaker 02

  I like it. That's dope.

• 0:26Speaker 03

  We've got a couple of different symbols, something that I'm building up. I want to get out to the people.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  It's a cool nickname.

• 0:32Speaker 03

  It's, uh, it's unique for sure. It's, it came about a funny way, but I like it. It's the mantra that it brings to the fight game and to who I am is, is perfect.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Well, it's finesse and you fight with a lot of finesse, you know? So we should start from your UFC debut because that was when you really burst onto the scene. You fought this guy Malcolm Wellmaker, who's a killer, vicious knockout puncher and had a ton of hype behind him because of his performance. Was it the contender series we had the big performance?

• 1:04Speaker 03

  Uh, it was all three of them.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  Contender series, you knocked that dude out flat and then, uh, I don't remember who it was second, but then it was Chris Moutinho was the third one that he knocked out like that.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  And, um, you put on a show, man, and nobody had heard of you. And that's one of the craziest things about this sport is that there can be a guy like you that's learning and growing on, in the shadows. And then they get the call and on, I think it was two days notice.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  So two days notice, you fought above your weight because you're bantamweight normally and you fought a featherweight. And dude, you just, it was, wasn't just that you fought a guy who was this vicious striker. It was the calmness and the technique and the smoothness of it all that was so impressive. And I was like, this guy's different. Like the way you fight is very intelligent and I love that. I love watching a guy who's just all technique and movement and you're, you're the epitome of that.

• 2:02Speaker 03

  Uh, I appreciate it. Um, that's something I pride myself on. That's, I think, uh, maybe it's because I've, I've delved into more of a boxing realm with perfecting the striking and really focusing on, um, that, that technical aspect, that style. But yeah, it's, uh, to me to watch guys go in there and just brawl it out and say, uh, you know, let's see who can take more punches before the other guy drops is, is just silly to me. It's, it's like you said, I like to fight with finesse. I like to hit and not get hit and champions don't take return fire. So, um, I hope to have a lot of longevity with this game and, uh, yeah, that's why I fight that way.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  That is the formula for longevity. I was having a conversation with Fedor, the guy who's sitting next to us, who's, uh, one of the best pool players in the world and he's getting, we just got back from Ways to Well, so shout out to Brigham and all the people at Ways to Well for taking care of us. Um, but he, uh, and I were talking about fighters and about, it's very similar to, I think everything, whether it's pool or golf or, and there's the people that really focus on technique and fundamentals and, and really objectively look at what they're doing and refine it. And we were talking about guys who just stand in front of each other and blast each other. I'm like, look, the crowd will cheer. They will love to see you, but your career will be shorter and the end will be bad.

• 3:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  The end will be bad and, and then you'll probably fight past the time where you should and no one's going to stop you. They're gonna, maybe you have one or two close friends that'll tell you, when are you going to hang them up? But a lot of coaches let guys fight way too long and I think the organization lets guys fight way too long. There's a few guys that in the past, at least I've, I've seen them on the lineup in an upcoming fight and I'm like, oh God. And then I see who he's fighting, I'm like, oh God.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Like, I don't want to see this guy take any more punishment. I don't, you know, enough is enough and those styles of just face first, just attacking, boy, the audience loves you and that's a trap.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  That is a real trap.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, a hundred percent. And I think that's, it's almost a little frustrating that the, like general public gives that kind of energy to that kind of a match. Sure, I get it. It's exciting. You want to see blood spilled. Like people just really enjoy the chaos of all that and all the movement and the energy that goes into it. But yeah, you're, you're foregoing that whole technical aspect, like the perfection of controlling the dance from the beginning to the end and everything in between, you know? It's, and it's almost just like a, like an educated street brawl. You're getting in there and just swinging and going crazy. And to me, that's not what martial arts is. I mean, it's, it literally is the, the chase of perfection to it of, you know, like the,

• 4:52Speaker 03

  the hit and don't get hit, that is the art of, of boxing, but the art of striking in martial arts, you know? You want to be, yeah, near, near perfect and the way you engage in this is land the damage and be able to cut those angles, move your head, pull out the distance and not take any of that in return. And, uh, yeah, a lot of guys get, get cheered on initially and so it's unfortunate that, um, maybe it's not unfortunate, but you just, you just see it a lot that, yeah, those guys get hyped up off the beginning and then all the other things happen, like you said.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, look, they are exciting. I love when guys fight like that because it's just crazy to watch, but I have to set aside the rational part of my brain that says this is not smart. It's not a good thing for them.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  And this is, there's no future in this. Eventually it's going to catch up to you.

• 5:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, if I watch these guys, you know, get after it like Roman Puga versus, uh, his opponent on the Dana White Contender Series this last Tuesday, I believe it was.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, that was crazy.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Dude, I mean, I've trained with Roman a little bit here and there. He's from the same area as me and, uh, yeah, the guy's, the guy's very skillful, but at the end of the day, both those guys walked out of there, just busted up. I mean, they went straight to the hospital and it's fantastic to watch, but from a fighter's perspective, at least from someone who's engaging in this on the same level as they are, yeah, I, uh, I don't know. That's why I like, you know, a little bit more of that precise style with the boxing specifically, I guess. I've really drawn a lot of aspects from it.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Oh, for sure. I mean, there's, there's an art to like a fighter that fights with style and a fighter that fights with finesse. Like I always go to Izzy in his prime, Adesanya in his prime, when, when he was just styling on dudes. I mean, it was a beautiful thing to watch. It was, it was, it was like a dance. It was almost like he was coordinating them, you know? He was moving them into his strikes and everything was like feints. They were all like very specific to gauge reactions and he'd put it all into the computer and the next thing you know, he's tuning you up.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah. I mean, uh, he's dancing his way out.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  Into the octagon and then he's dancing in there, you know?

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's, um, and I think the other thing that the general public doesn't understand about this game is that it's a smart man's game.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  It's not a tough man's game.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Well, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you because I've seen a lot of your quotes online and I've seen you talk. You're obviously a thoughtful person and I think you have to be to have that kind of a style because it does take a lot of thinking. It takes a lot, like what you're doing in there by constantly overlert, overloading your opponent's nervous system with movement and, and, and constant counters and being like right out of range, but then right in range and then right out of range. There's, there's a lot of intelligence involved in that.

• 7:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  And for someone like me who really loves the art of it, I love watching a guy like you fight because I really wish young fighters would emulate people like you. Young fighters would see a guy like that, like that's what I want to fight like. I don't want to be this guy who goes in there and the end of my career, my face is just a roadmap of scars and I got CTE, but boy, people remember back in the day when I knocked that guy out or when we had this fight of the night and. The football season is heating up and every week feels bigger with DraftKings Sportsbook, the number one sportsbook for live betting. Plus get extra protection with early exit. Opt in and if your player leaves the game with an eligible injury in the first half, your bet is protected.

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• 10:37Speaker 03

  And, um, it's taken a lot of. Experience, a lot of growth, a lot of seeing different things, because when I was a wrestler, it was the Iowa style of wrestling that I emulated and that I hope to emulate, which is, is just get in your face, break you down, break your spirit, break you physically, just completely wipe you out with just outstanding pressure, you know? And I think I suffered with the finesse, with a little bit of the technicality of setting things up and being smooth, because I was just clubbing on your head, snapping people down, going, going, going, and I've refined that. I've pulled back from that almost, almost too much, I would say, to where

• 11:18Speaker 03

  if I'm, if I'm striking with someone, I don't even want to engage in like a battle of physicality. These guys try to push and move and get up and I'm like, you know, I'll sit and I'll dance and I'll roll up and I'll, I'll shut them down real quick and I'm steering them off and I'm throwing really quick and they try to get physical where they're really trying to make it, you know, a high pace and, and and just more physical. I don't want to engage with that at all. I want to steer from beginning to the end. I want to keep my heart rate as low as possible. I want to land shots and then I want to be back to sitting and, and like you said, covering a distance, controlling everything where I can sit, I can take my breath and I can see what's coming next and then I can move accordingly.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  And so, you know, after being out for a little bit of time, I'm now even elevated another, um, yeah, to, to another greater extent in my own mind that I'm now starting to combine the two things to where before I, I wouldn't say I shied away from it, you know, I'm, I'm a tough guy. If, if we want to get physical and if it needs to go to that, I'm there all day. You know, don't get me wrong with that, but, um, I'm, I'm finding that middle ground where I was, I was too much of that Iowa style without the finesse. Now I was trying to be all skillful, all finesse, dance around the Muhammad Ali shuffle, throw that flicker jab, be out of range, you know, and, and

• 12:40Speaker 03

  not wanting to engage in the physicality too much. And now I've elevated once again to where I'm finding that perfect middle ground that, you know, my, I'm, I'm letting my ego go in the gym to where if we do get into that physicality or someone gets me with something, if it doesn't look perfect, I'm not sitting there thinking, oh, I need to look perfect and, and avoid these things. Now I'm just sending it and getting after it. So, yeah, it's, it's an ever-evolving game and, uh, I'm just getting better all the time with everything. So, you'll never see me go in there and brawl anybody, but you'll see less hesitation, you'll see, uh, more precise shots and then all the other finesse will always be there.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Well, it is a constant work in progress, right? And I think that's one of the more interesting things about MMA is that you see a fighter when they first start fighting in the UFC and then you see as fights go on, they get more fights, they get more confidence, they get more experience and they also get significantly better. You know, it's, it's kind of rare that you see athletes in a sport, generally speaking, when they get to a certain professional level, they're kind of already at their peak. And they might get a little better, but in MMA in particular, you see dramatic improvement in fighters over the course of four or five years. Especially if they have good management and good training. And one of the things that you're talking about is like letting your ego go in the gym. That is so important.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  It's so important to recognize that training is for learning. It's not, you're not trying to win every training session, not trying to win fights. You're trying to get better at winning actual fights. And sometimes getting better at winning actual fights is addressing whatever weird weaknesses or weird places where you're not as comfortable and getting comfortable there. And the best way to do that is to just force yourself in those situations.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, 100%.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  It's hard to do though, because guys want to be dominant. They want to, you know, you don't want to lose a training session. You don't want to give, you know, this guy that you're sparring with, the impression that he can kick your ass.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  So you want to get it back on them, but sometimes it's smart to not.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, 100%. I mean, I'm, I'm over there, uh, the Ritoa brothers are channing over there at CSW with Eric Paulson right now. And, yeah, it's like-

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Those guys are phenomenal.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're the best in the world at what they do, you know?

• 14:48Speaker 02

  They're so fun to watch. Those guys could put jiu-jitsu on the map.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Because the Ritoa brothers, like when they do jiu-jitsu, it is like this chaotic, exciting, like very kinetic, very technical path to your neck.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  You know, that's what it is. It's just this constant path to your neck.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Dude, and they got these monkey arms that it can just wrap around your neck and get that darts choke from anywhere, man. It's ridiculous.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Long arms are awesome.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  Long arms are insane.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Such an advantage. Like Hodger Gracie had that.

• 15:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  A lot of guys have that. A lot of like the best darts guys. Hamzat has that.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Those long arm guys, fuck, man.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then like you said, like their, their ability to, they, they almost like enforce the chaos because that's where they, they thrive at, you know?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:33Speaker 03

  All that scramble situation.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  They're, they're running, doing crazy jumps, like crazy sweep setups, uh, was it Kader Ty? I think, I don't know if it was Ty when he ran and he bounced off the cage or the ropes and then he runs back in and double legs like they do, like, it's like a WWE match, you know? They're like thriving off of that chaotic energy and scrambles.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. They, they, they're so good in scrambles. You know, and it's really interesting watching, is it Ty that's doing 1FC that is doing MMA fights now?

• 16:02Speaker 03

  They're both fighting.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  They're both fighting now. And that's, it's going to be exciting to have those guys enter into the UFC someday. Hopefully they will.

• 16:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Because-

• 16:11Speaker 03

  For sure. That, they're, they're just freak athletes, you know? It's something that they've been around since they were super, super young and, uh, yeah, I mean, even, even their striking, you know, it's not super technical quite yet. They're very brand new in it, but they're just, they got long reach, they're very methodical, they're athletic, they understand distances from the jiu-jitsu world of setting up takedowns and, you know, closing, closing that distance. So, um, but yeah, what I was saying is like going with that kind of a guy, it's like the last thing I want to do is engage in like a grappling position with them in the jiu-jitsu or in the MMA. And, uh, but it's like, yeah, the more I do that, I'm only going to get better at doing that kind of stuff, you know?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  100%.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  Kill the ego, engage full head on into what you're bad at. That's the only way to get good at anything.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Another great thing about those guys is they're totally natural. And in the jiu-jitsu world, that's rare.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  That's really rare. Jiu-jitsu is a dirty sport, man.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Or, you know, I mean, is it dirty if everyone's doing it? No. Let me say it this way. It's an enhanced sport.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  For the most part, the elite guys are on some Brazilian supplements.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's, it's legal, but they're all doing it. Yeah, they're all juiced up, so.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  I mean, it's kind of legal. Like Abu Dhabi doesn't test. A lot of places don't test.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  So it's like, and you see these guys, there's no way, some of them. And, you know, kudos to guys like Gordon, like Gordon Ryan, who talks very openly about it. He's like, everybody's on performance enhancing drugs. Why would I be on performance enhancing drugs?

• 17:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  My goal is to be the absolute best that I could be, period.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  You know, and the idea that the only reason why he's so good is because of steroids is also equally ridiculous. Because when he was younger and when he was much smaller, he was winning tournaments left and right and beating world champions.

• 18:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  And he was totally natural.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, there's, there's no way you can say someone like Gordon Ryan isn't the highest prowess of skillset for jiu-jitsu, you know, like his technical, technicality and his abilities there are unquestionable. Yeah, what, I mean, what are you going to do? If everybody else is, is on that level, you're now at a deficit if you're not taking it. So, um-

• 18:23Speaker 02

  There's a few guys that don't, um-

• 18:26Speaker 03

  And, and maybe, I don't know, obviously there's maybe some strength skill or strength deficit there, but that's, that's why, again, going back to my style and, and what I like to do with like the technicality and having that ability, there's, there's, there's just so many aspects to everything, but if you're that much more technical than someone, then that can negate size to some extent, that can negate, um, strength to some extent, like there's, there's, there's a lot of equalizers there now. You know, on, on the, on the opposite end, someone who's got that one hitter quitter, they could be less technical, but they're always dangerous. If they hit you one time and you go to sleep, then all sins are forgiven. They could have got beat up for

• 19:08Speaker 03

  two rounds straight and they knock you out. That's all the, the crowd remembers. So, uh, there's, there's a lot that goes into it, but if you're that much more, you know, skilled in your technicality, that's, that's, you're going to, to me, that's the best you could do. That's, that's what you're chasing.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  For sure. The really dangerous guys are the guys who have that one hitter quitter power and then they get real technical.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Those are the scary guys.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  Oh, for sure. I mean,

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 03

  That's, then now you have it all, you know?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:37Speaker 03

  That's, that's the pinnacle.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Often not the case though. That's what's interesting is power can be a curse. As can talent. Talent can be a curse too. Because you don't work as hard, because you fuck everybody up in the gym and so you don't show up for practice sometimes. You still fuck these guys up. They're just not on your level physically or for whatever reason.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  And then there's guys that have that power that always just rely on that power and never really develop the fundamentals and so- like Deontay Wilder is a great example of that. Deontay Wilder, who I think is the greatest one punch knockout artist in the history of the heavyweight division.

• 20:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  That fucking guy. Woo, and not a big guy.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  But his power is nuts and Teddy Atlas has the greatest, uh, definition of it, the description of it. He said, "It's the great eraser. Any mistakes he makes, one shot erases them all."

• 20:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  It's so true.

• 20:28Speaker 03

  Oh, 100%. Yeah, it's, uh, I agree. I mean-

• 20:33Speaker 02

  But could you imagine if Deontay could move like Tyson Fury?

• 20:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  If Deontay could box like Tyson Fury?

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  With also with that crazy insane power.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's it's game over for anybody.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  That's game over for everybody.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  Who stands in front of that guy?

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 03

  Not a single person, you know?

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• 22:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  You know? I mean, and has that crazy stop bang?

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  One shot, you're in another fucking dimension.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's, you know, there's, and then,

• 22:14Speaker 03

  that's, that's obviously like at a personal level, like, some people are blessed with that talent, like you said, or a skillset, athleticism.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Well, the power thing is just, it seems like it's a gift.

• 22:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it is. I mean, I mean, I think it was for us, I was talking about Connor, and he was talking about how the, the muscles connect to the muscle head differently. It's like a long or a short ones, and then you either have like that real explosive power, but then your, your cardio suffers, whatever it is, he's going into it. It's a gift. I mean, can you develop it to some extent? Yeah, of course. Now,

• 22:47Speaker 03

  the other thing with, with punching, with, with striking is it's not always like power that knocks people out. It's the shot that you don't see coming that knocks you out.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 22:55Speaker 03

  You know?

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:55Speaker 03

  And so, it, you know, then you can kind of equalize on, on that playing field, I suppose, to some extent if you're getting people guessing, you're getting people fainting, you're hitting them with shots that they're not seeing, then you're gonna get similar, you know, knockout finishes like that.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  There's a lot of guys that knock a lot of people out that don't have one punch power, for sure. Max Holloway is a great example of that. Like Max has never, even though he has knocked guys out with one shot, it's generally like after a bunch of damage.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  But I mean, Max talked about it pretty openly about guys like Connor, Jose Aldo. And he's like, they just get tired quicker because of the speed and power. They're so explosive, and it's so much energy to try to close the distance that quick and land those big nuclear bomb shots, but you only have a few of those in a whole fight.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I feel like Max's perspective on those two guys may be construed just because of, I mean, he fought Connor the first time, I guess, when Connor was in his, his prime, you know, when he was coming up.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  It was almost before his prime.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  It was, it was on that rise.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  They were both kids. I think Max was 20 at the time.

• 24:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, he was, I think he was like the youngest UFC fighter at that time or something.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  He was a different human back then.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  For sure. But I just think, so like, because Connor's cardio is something that I have noticed. It wasn't, it wasn't super poor like initially. When he was fighting at 145, I mean, to me, he never, like Chad Mendes, they had a lot of grappling exchanges. Chad took him down, Chad hit him with shots. You know, Connor just stayed nice, calm, cool, and collected. And he, he got back to the striking where he could do that. But to me, he never was like gassed out. But then you watch the second Diaz fight, and he's running around the cage for five rounds. Now he's gone up in a weight class. So then it goes back to, you know, what's his, what's his training regiment look like? He's, he's not cutting as much weight, so he doesn't have to be as much as disciplined. His diet changes. There's a lot of aspects, so like,

• 24:52Speaker 03

  I don't know, Con, the Connor one was, was weird to me, just because I saw, I saw a change in it. When he was at 145, he, he didn't have poor cardio. As soon as he left that weight class, his cardio waned. And then Jose Aldo, I mean, that guy was undefeated for what, 10 years? Champion for 10 years, and you never saw him get tired. And I never saw him get tired. Yeah, Max fought him at a certain point when he's a little bit older, this and that. So, I don't know, maybe that's just Max's perspective on that. I'm not saying Max is incorrect in what he's saying, but,

• 25:25Speaker 03

  I don't know. There's, there's, to me, there's just, I haven't pinpointed exactly what's the right and wrong way to do everything, just because there's so many variables, especially in MMA. I mean, we were kind of discussing a little bit earlier is, it's not just solely that you have like good cardio that allows you to continue to perform in that fight. There's another aspect of how calm, cool, and collected you can be. Because, you know, like we were talking hitting the mitts and something, if you're real tense and you're just trying to kill them, yeah, you're gonna burn yourself out. But if you're fast and snappy, you're producing just as much, if not more, power. And now you're being more efficient with it, you know? And so,

• 26:07Speaker 03

  I don't know, the cardio one is, is a, is a funky one in combat sports to me.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  It really is, but I think if you look at Jose Aldo, Jose Aldo, when he was on top, when he was the king, he was wrecking everybody. And he was the hammer most of the time. And he was so athletic and so fast and had some of the best leg kicks we had ever seen. Like the Uriah Faber fight, how fucking tough is Uriah Faber?

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Because like, that guy, many, many, many humans would have been stopped a long time ago just from those leg kicks. And Uriah just kept trying to the very last second of the, even though he was way behind the scorecards, never folded up his tent. He was still trying. But Aldo wasn't the nail. You know what I'm saying? Like, there was, there was very few moments in a fight where someone had really started overwhelming him. And one of the things that Max has always been so good at is knowing when to hit the gas. And knowing when to just slowly ramp up the pressure. And you see guys start to fade, and Max is a cardio fucking machine. I mean, super disciplined guy. And great camp. Those guys in Hawaii really prepare him well. He is always like 100, like the fight with Gagey.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Fighting in the fifth round of a fucking crazy chaotic war, just at the same exact pace he was fighting in the first round.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  So it's the experience of knowing what your body can do, when you can hit the gas, when you need to back off, when to move, when not to. And when you feel your opponent start to fade a little bit. You see the mouth being open a little bit more, you see the movement looks a little sloppier.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  Right. Oh, 100%. That's, yeah, knowing when to rest is, is a big aspect of that as well. Because you go and you, I mean, that's why a lot of the training you do is, is that short burst. You know, you hit like your sprints. You know, you might, maybe you hit the straightaway on, on the track, and then you jog and maintain. Because in a fight, you're never completely resting, you're always moving a little bit.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  So yeah, I mean, that's, that's a huge thing to experience. I think his, his style and, and just what he's created, like you said, in his camp is, is a high output, high volume individual, so, you know, his body's probably

• 28:15Speaker 03

  become used to that, and, and that's, that's how he performs normally.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was shocked that Connor wanted to fight him in his first fight back after years off. I mean, five years is a long time to not fight. And then to come back and fight a guy like Max, who's been constantly fighting.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  The best guys in the world. And knowing that Max is a guy who never fades. And he's in very diff, I mean, the only guy who's really gotten him out of there is Ilya. And, you know, Ilya caught Max when Max went down from 55 down to 45, which I think was a mistake. He was so big. He got so big to get up to 55 to fight Justin. And he did it over a long period of time, put a lot of mass on. And then you essentially, you're starving yourself to get down to 45 again. Your body's gonna be weak, no matter what you do. It's not like he was, when he was fighting at 45, he maintained a lower weight class, knew exactly when to cut, and would make it no problem each time. That last cut to 45 was a nightmare. It was a horror show. And so when he got in there with Ilya, and then you're fighting

• 29:19Speaker 02

  El Matador, that motherfucker, you want to talk about technique. Technique and his strike, the smoothness and efficiency, and the one punch, go night-night power. I mean, that guy has it above it. Who the fuck did that to Charles Olivera the way that guy did? I mean, that's nuts. He's got cra, and up at 55, when Olivera's a big 55, too.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, yeah, him moving up to 55, there's some, there's some big dogs right there.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Big. Especially when you look at him and Justin. When him and Justin were like facing off, which I'm like, that's a way bigger dude. Like, Justin's bigger than me and Ilya's smaller than me. When I stand next to the two of them, like, this is crazy that Ilya has the kind of power that he's just wrecking guys even that are way bigger than him.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, I mean, his, his skillset is, is amazing combined with the power. That's, that's someone you talk about has a skillset and the punching power, you know, and encompasses both those things. It's, yeah, he's, he's got it all. I mean, and, and the thing with him too is, he's just so, he's so calm, cool, and collected. I think that's also something, I mean, I, I do a lot of like comparison from, from Muay Thai boxing to the MMA world, because, you know, I'm, I'm in MMA, so I understand that there's so many different aspects to it, where like someone could take you down. And that's gonna affect your, your striking skillset, you know? If you've got someone who's a real dope wrestler, and you're, and you're a way better striker,

• 30:43Speaker 03

  if you're sitting there and worried about them taking you down and smothering you, your striking goes out the, the window a little bit, because now you have a whole different set of weapons that you're worrying about.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  And you can get caught easier.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, especially if you're like just loading up on them, yeah, you're gonna get ducked under and double legged and, and then taken down. And that's, that's the whole thing, but,

• 31:06Speaker 03

  I forgot where we even started this train of thought, but uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think it's his, his collecting is too, but I was, I was saying there's comparisons to all these. And that's what like boxing, you see these guys, they might have a couple more rounds, but they come out and like the first round, maybe uh, the second round is, is a feeling out round. You know, it's, it's a slow build up where they're, they're collecting data, they're setting traps, they're, they're doing a lot of that. And you see that in MMA. It's just not at the same level. Obviously there's a, there's a greater skillset, there's more weapons to worry about. It is different.

• 31:42Speaker 03

  But I don't know, I, obviously I, I'm reaching for peak perfection with everything. So if we're coming and we're looking at distance control, I think the boxers do it better, you know? If we're looking at setting up feints and, and working off a jab especially. I think that's, I think that's the most frustrating thing when I watch MMA or UFC fights. And to watch the majority of the guys never, never ever use a jab. And it's always just this big overhand, right? I'm like, like, what are you doing? Like you have two hands, like you have the jab, set it up. Now, I'm not saying that's everybody, but I see, I see many people doing that. But that, going back to Taporia, that's one thing that he does so well is, is he's a shorter guy. He sits back on that back foot. He's throwing that jab. He's, he's understanding your distance control so he can get in.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  And then that's where he's got that power and he lets that go.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  It's gonna be interesting to see how he rebounds. Because that was a, a lot of damage. You had two fractured orbitals. You know, they had to stop the fight in between rounds. And uh, he took big punches from a guy who's got fucking rocks in his hands. I mean, Justin can crack.

• 32:47Speaker 03

  Well, they call him what? The most violent? The most violent in the, in the game? And I think that stands true. Uh, yeah, that's, that's a hard one to bounce back from. It's gonna take extra time of him really letting all his injuries heal and, and be fully recovered. Before he even thinks about sparring again, you know? Ever getting touched in the face again.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know where he's at now, you know? Um, but I know that he's still recovering and it'll be a while. I mean, the fight was in June. We're doing this right now. It's August 30th. Was it 30th or 31st? 31st? So, you know, he's had a couple of months, but you know, that, he probably needs like six months before he's even sparring again.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, it's gonna take some time. It's gonna take some time. And the thing that I really hate to see is when you guys, you have undefeated individuals like that. Who have gone undefeated their whole career, feel invincible. And then it, sometimes that one takes them off their pedestal. You know, like Jose Aldo's a, a great example of that, of, I mean, and he came back and he fought tough, but he just never was the same. He was never that untouchable.

• 33:50Speaker 03

  You know, there's probably many people that I can touch back on, but yeah, I hope, I think hopefully that's, that's the main thing that he's gonna need is that, that mental indestructibility and to come back and just be like, I'm the same person. That one fight doesn't change anything and I'm ready to go do it again.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Well, he's a very mentally strong guy. And I, I think he will bounce back in that regard. It's just, there's also the, just the reality of how much damage, and only he knows how much damage he actually took in that fight. You know, how that affects him as well. Because you know as well as anybody that there's only a few of those kind of fights that you could have in your career. And you gotta be very careful how you recover from those. And uh, a lot of fighters, a lot of great fighters have made a mistake of coming back too soon. Uh, Volkanovsky's one that I point to all the time, who's arguably the greatest featherweight of all time. He is one of the most masterful fighters in the game. He took a short, short notice fight

• 34:49Speaker 02

  with uh, Islam uh, in the rematch and got head kicked. And then I think it was only four months later that he was fighting Ilya. And that is crazy. That's a crazy thing to do. He took a full head kick, shin to the dome, gets KO'd. And then four months later, he's fighting the fucking scariest challenger that he's ever had to face.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, 100%. You, you can't rush back into those things. I mean, especially when you're that cemented, you don't really need to rush back into it. You know, you, you have your legacy behind you.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Well, he shouldn't have even taken that fight with Islam. There's no way you should take a world championship fight when you're hanging out with your buddies, drinking beer, you know, eating fish and chips or whatever the fuck he was doing.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  He's hunting with Volk over there, you know?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  He's having a good time, but he wasn't in training. He says, there's no way he was in training. He didn't look like he was in training physically, like his body didn't look the same. Not only he looked out of shape, but he definitely looked smoother and less ripped than he usually does.

• 35:43Speaker 03

  There's a, there's a difference to be in a two or three month fight camp of day in, day out, two, three practices a day. The diet's set, the, the mentality is set versus I'm just training on outside of that.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  When you came in on two days' notice to fight Wellmaker, were you in training at all? Like what was your scenario?

• 36:02Speaker 03

  Uh, I was doing a food eating championship training. I was killing uh, double doubles and three by threes. No, but with that one, I was, I was fortunate because uh, I, I stay strict pretty much year round. So I had fought, fought in January um, at the beginning of the year. And then I was supposed to fight multiple times and I just had, I had two or three opponents pull out. And then I fought November 7th for the title fight for the A1 Combat, which was literally the weekend before. So fortunately I did, I was, even though people were falling out, I, I kept to the course. I stayed strong. I stayed in a fight camp mentality. That November 7th fight ended up happening. So I had a strong two months.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  Now, still, even that one week difference of going be in a fight camp. And then I have a couple of drinks at the casino, I'm eating food. And I thought to myself, because January was, it was a similar thing where they said, February, Australia, get ready, get your passport, let's look into this, blah, blah, blah. You know, I had a, had a nice knockout finish there. Um, but then yeah, it's just that one week of being off of, of eating whatever I wanted to and just kinda doing whatever. I, I ran once, I showed up to sparring and light touch sparred. Um, I had gone to one other practice, cause in my mind, I was like, I need to be

• 37:26Speaker 03

  somewhat ready for this. Like I can have, I can have a week. I've been in fight camp all year long. I can have one week. And then that's the week that they call and say 48 hour notice, MSG, 10-0 undefeated Malcolm Wellmaker, if you want it. And uh, and then of course I'm gonna, can't say no to that one.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  So you fought the weekend before the Wellmaker fight?

• 37:45Speaker 03

  I fought November 7th, yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Wow, that's actually good. If you didn't get hurt.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it was a minute and 30 seconds. I knocked him out in the first round. So it was, it was, to me, it's just the stars aligned. I mean,

• 37:59Speaker 02

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• 39:18Speaker 02

  Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better, H E L P dot com. Don't you think it's also good that you just had the experience like seven days prior to the whole thing, getting in the cage, cage shots, you just fought. So it's much more comfortable for you than if you had, like Connor, taking five years off. As elite as Connor is, double champ, one of the greatest of all time, for that, even a guy like that, you take five years off and you could see like what it did to him. It's like it fucked with his head.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, you could, you could see it. There, there wasn't the same Connor energy going into it. Uh, of course, I, I always

• 40:05Speaker 03

  want a quick turnaround, like after I fight, just for that very reason. I, I, I cut the weight. I know what that's like. I,

• 40:14Speaker 03

  Warmed up in the back with all the anticipation, you know, and that energy flowing through my body. I walked out in front of the crowd. They announced my name. I got there. I actually fought someone. So yeah. If you have that going for you, then that's, yeah, it's way, way better for sure.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, the more active you can be, the more comfortable you can be with the experience, as long as you're not getting hurt. Yeah, here's a stat that I was reading about Izzy. Um, and people forget about this. When he was the champion, he defended his title a lot, man. He was the guy that they can go, hey, we need someone to headline this card, and Izzy would step in. And I think he fought three times. He defended the world title three times in one year. Which is crazy, because I don't think the middleweight title since he's gone has even been, like, how many middleweight fights have there even been for the title since he's been gone? There's only been a few fights. I think there's only been...

• 41:11Speaker 03

  I mean, there's Shawn and...

• 41:12Speaker 02

  And Drakis. Shawn and Drakis, two. Uh, Drakis and Hamzat.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  And then Shawn and Hamzat, right?

• 41:19Speaker 02

  And Shawn and Hamzat. I mean, it might literally be like maybe five fights since he's lost the title, and fuck, he defended it more than anybody.

• 41:29Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, which is crazy. He defended it three times in one year.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  And then you have this, you know, huge span of time in between defenses.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  But then there's a question of like, what is the, when does it become a benefit? And when does it become a detriment? Like, when, when you're fighting too many times a year, like the Murab Dawish Willie fight. Um, one of the things that a lot of people talked about after Piotr Jan beat him in the rematch was, what about the strength of schedule? I mean, Murab was fighting constantly. He was fighting, he fought so often and for so many years that you gotta think that at a certain point in time, maybe he's doing himself a disservice by being so active.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, for sure. Um, I don't know. I mean, that's... It's something you gotta feel out for yourself, you know?

• 42:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  It's, it's something that you have to know in your heart of hearts, and nobody else can tell you that. Your coach can't be like, no, you're training really well these days. You're super sharp, this and that. Like, if something's off, realistically, you should be perfect going into your fight, especially at a, at a world championship caliber. Um, it's just, I mean, I keep making these comparisons, but it's another thing that I, I go back to with the boxing world, is these guys look at it as a business. Like, look at Floyd Mayweather. Like, everything was, like, he, he made sure that the, the cage was his side. He picked the gloves. It was certain people at certain times. And there's, there's some things to be said about that, but it's a business mindset. It's a very smart approach to it, you know? I'm fighting when I'm ready. I'm not fighting injured, which is, which is more of the main thing, is like, people go in there with injuries

• 43:04Speaker 03

  and, you know, get hurt or, or lose even. It's like, that's, that could be detrimental on your record. I think the MMA guys are a little bit more on the, the tough side instead of the, the business side of things, where they'll, they'll fight anyone, anytime, which, I mean, that's how you gotta be. But that's how you build your team around you. You have a team that tells you, hey, you know, this time isn't, isn't necessarily the best to go into it, and this and that, and, and just being a little bit smarter about your schedule. It's like, yeah, us fighters are gonna sit there and go, I'll fight anyone, any given time. Um, doesn't matter, but, yeah, this is, this is a business. It's not just, um, fighting, like, getting in that cage solely. It's, it's a lot of aspects that go into it.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Don't you think it's way more difficult to go into a fight perfect in MMA than it is in boxing, though? In boxing, it seems like it's much easier to avoid injuries.

• 43:55Speaker 03

  For sure. There's, there's, there's differences. I just, I reflect back to that. I like the way that they conduct themselves. I think it's, it's, and, and there's a lot that's to be said to that, because it's, it's a longer standing sport. There's been more time and experience into it. But, yeah, 100%. I mean, you know, I, I was, before this April fight, I, the first round of the day of sparring, I was just going light with Callum Bisping for literally one second, and we moved around, and he's a heavyweight. We moved around, he took me, took, he tried to take me down, I stuffed him, he took me down, and I kinda just sat with it, because I didn't want to get caught in any, you know, knee tweaking positions or anything, because he's just so much heavier than I am.

• 44:37Speaker 03

  And I sat into a butterfly, which is typically how I would do that, elevate the hips immediately and try to make a scramble. And my, my meniscus just popped instantly, right then and there. First round of the day, barely, barely had done anything, barely started, and it wasn't even like a, a crazy position, but, yeah, now I sustain injury. Now I don't go against heavyweights anymore, because it's stupid.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, you should never be doing that. As a bantamweight, you should not be sparring with heavyweights.

• 45:03Speaker 03

  Well, that's why I go the first day. I'm, or not the first day, but the first round, and I'm just trying to warm up. There's, there's a lot of things to be said. I, I grow and I, and I learn and I get smarter every time.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  I think you should only spar with guys that are reasonably close to your weight, period.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. 10, 10 pounds is probably a maximum above you. You know, you shouldn't be going with anybody more than that. Yeah, I get, I get smarter with these things. Yeah, I, I do dumb things and, uh, I figure for the, for the, most of my history, I've had to learn the hard way with things, so, uh, I'm getting better at it. I'm getting smarter, so. But like I said, it was just a freak thing. It wasn't like we were going crazy hard or anything, like, it just was the first round, I just trying to move and, and then some little thing happens like that. Uh, it wasn't a full, full tear, but it happened back in like February-ish, right before that, that April one. So, leading up to the Estevan fight, it's like I didn't grapple till the, the last maybe, maybe month of it, maybe a couple of weeks.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Oh, so it was bothering you even before that?

• 45:57Speaker 03

  It was all the way up to it. I mean, that's, that's when it happened, was the April fight, which was the Estevan fight.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  So, yeah, it's, it's very difficult to avoid everything, you know, like, there's a lot of different things that won't even seem like a detrimental position, but, yeah, you got grappling, which can tweak all sorts of different parts of the body. A, a simple cut from, from striking can happen very easily, so, for sure, it's, it's much more abundant in the MMA world, because there are more weapons. There's a lot of variations of things to watch out for. Uh, but, that being said, I like to carry, like I said, this is a smart man's game. I like to carry a, a level of, of business-wise and, and smart-wise to this, and that's, so though, though the, um, exact functions may differ, it's, it's the mindset that I like to carry from it.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Right. Is it, well, it, what you said is perfect, that it's a long business. Boxing's been around for a long time, and the really elite trainers, the, the really elite coaches, they know how to prepare their fighters, and they know what fights to take and when to take them.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  And unfortunately, with the UFC, like, sometimes you get a call, like the Malcolm Wellmaker fight, you know, and you're like, oh shit, it would've been nice to get two months to prepare for Malcolm, but I have two days.

• 47:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  And I just fought, fuck it, roll the dice, and you also were coming out of nowhere, and I don't think a lot of people had time to prepare for you. Because as good as you are, when you fought Wellmaker, when you fought, uh, how do you say his name? Estevan? What is his?

• 47:34Speaker 03

  Rafael Estevan?

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Rafael Estevan? He was also undefeated, and super skillful. He was a really good fighter, and still is. But, um, to have those two performances in a row, the way you looked, you looked like a guy, like, if you were 20 years ago, you would've been a fucking alien, like, no one had seen anybody like you before. That's how much this sport has grown, just in 20 years. You go back to like Ultimate Fighter Season 1, there was fucking nobody like you. Nobody like you back then.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  You know, it really wasn't until Anderson burst onto the scene shortly after that that we really got to see that kind of elite level of striking.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, yeah, talk about an alien for that time. That was Anderson Silva. That's, that's one of the top to ever do it. There's, there's no question.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. People forget, because maybe they see his later fights in his career. But you go back and watch him when he was in his prime. I remember when, when he fought Chris Leibin. And Chris Leibin is a murderous puncher, like, one of the hardest punchers that's ever fought in the UFC. He's, he's one of those guys that's got that fucking god-given crack.

• 48:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  And he's just such a warrior. I mean, wades into the storm, you know? But that style is tailor-made for him. And when I was looking at the odds, a friend of mine was there, I go, bet the house on the Brazilian. I go, bet the house. I go, listen to me, this is a motherfucker, dude. Just wait. Because that's when, he really came into his own, uh, over in Cage Rage. When he, that's when he really became Anderson Silva.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  That was a yellow cage? Was that Cage Rage? That's when he did that?

• 49:12Speaker 02

  The, the elbow, the crazy elbow? Yeah, with Tony Fricklin.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, what was the, it was like an upkick, like a crescent upkick? Was that Pride or was that the Cage Ranger? He was on the bottom, and he whipped his leg over the top? It wasn't like a straight upkick. He, he kinda like brought it over.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Ooh, I don't remember that one.

• 49:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't, I don't recall either.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Who, who was he fighting?

• 49:34Speaker 03

  I don't know. I'm not, I'm not good at names always.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  So in Pride, it was, uh, who was he fighting here, Jamie?

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Yushin Okami, oh Yushin Okami, this was Rumble on the Rock. This was BJ Penn's promotion, look at that, oh.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's just doing things that like, you, nobody had ever thought of at that time.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  He gets that right leg loose, ties his hands up, b-bow. That's crazy, and Okami was a beast. And they fought again in the UFC later and he KO'd Okami.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, stuff like that, the elbow you're talking about, just like, just a pioneer for it, you know? It's not like he's watching film, he's not sitting on YouTube watching people do these things prior. He's the one that's coming up with this kind of stuff.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  This is the crazy elbow, you know what the funny story about this elbow? He was training that and his coach told him, "Stop doing that, you're not gonna do that." And so he made his wife hold pillows at home? And he was, he was practicing it at home. He was having her hold a pillow and he was just working on the mechanics of that elbow. It's like he wanted to prove his coach wrong.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  And he wanted to get the knockout with that, that technique.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  And low and behold, he did it.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Well, he had some great fights over there, um, particularly the, um, uh, the Lee Murray fight, did you ever see that fight?

• 50:48Speaker 03

  Uh, probably, I, I probably have seen it. He's the, the British dude that...

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Became a bank robber?

• 50:54Speaker 03

  Was the bank robber, correct, yeah.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Biggest heist in UK history?

• 50:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  And that was a bad dude too, at the time, everybody was scared of that dude.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Well, that guy could crack, he was another guy, had crazy power. And just a vicious dude, just an absolutely vicious guy, who was a legitimate criminal.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly, he had like that whole aura and persona to him.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was a real gangster.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, that, that brings a little bit more of like this, you know, I don't wanna say fear, but like, oh, who's this guy, you know?

• 51:21Speaker 02

  The fucking guy was an elite fighter and he was also an elite criminal.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's multi-talented.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  I mean, that's something in a movie, like a guy, like who's a top-tier criminal, who also competes and wins in the UFC.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Right, yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  And won by triangle, he beat, uh, Jorge Rivera by triangle.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, it's crazy.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 51:47Speaker 03

  And you have Anderson come in and just demolish this dude, yeah.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  He just wrecked him, and he wrecked him with technique, and it was, a lot of it was leg kicks.

• 51:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  He just, Anderson's Muay Thai was at such a different level, it was so artistic.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's the perfect word to describe that, was artistic, 'cause it's just beautiful, the way he set things up, I mean, he made elite guys look very brand-new in the cage and, uh, I didn't see very many close fights with him until later in his career.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a later in his career thing, and I always say that with fighters, you really have to look at them when they were at their highest RPM, whatever, it's, you, generally it's only a few years, but that few years, like, judge them by that, judge them by those performances when they were just on fire.

• 52:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  And I, I tell people, "You have to always go back and watch those Anderson fights." When he front kicked Vitor in the face?

• 52:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  First time anybody had ever won by knockout with a front kick to the face in the UFC, now people do it all the time.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  But I didn't even think that was a good option, like, there's a video of, and I grew up kicking, there's a video of me and Eddie Bravo, we're working with those Bob, one of those Bob dummies, and he's like, "What do you think about a front kick to the face?", I'm like, "Eh, it's better to the body." I mean, you could land it to the face, but, you know, I don't really see very many guys do it, it's much more, eh, wrong. It's perfect.

• 53:05Speaker 03

  Just watch the Anderson Silva fight.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  And everybody does it now, so many guys get knockouts with a front kick to the face, 'cause you don't see it coming when it comes straight up the middle.

• 53:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  If everything's coming around, then all of a sudden something comes straight up the middle and catches the bottom of your chin.

• 53:17Speaker 03

  For sure, I, I like, um, I, I like that sidekick to the body, to the liver, throwing that heel on the liver, I think that's more of a natural motion, but I have been working with the front kicks, I like them a lot. Uh, especially with that, with the weight on the back leg a little bit, and especially with these calf kicks, people are really trying to bear down and throw the calf kick hard, that's, that's, uh, what's gonna be my technique in my last one was, when that, when that calf kick comes off the very beginning, uh, 'cause that's what Forya does, is comes out, he control, looks for his distance and he bases down and he throws that calf kick, almost every single time, against every opponent. And I was like, you know, especially, 'cause I was planning on going there one-handed and I was like,

• 54:00Speaker 03

  I was, "I'm just gonna pull this front leg up, front, front, kick to the face and it's gonna land, it's gonna be beautiful." But, yeah, I started to work that, like, you, you put all that weight on that back leg, this one comes up fast, and with the one I like better, especially with the boxing, as I come down here, is, uh, kinda getting that lean forward and you're stepping back, and then when people think your face is in range forward, you just pull back and throw that one straight up the middle.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  And you're talking about off the front leg?

• 54:23Speaker 03

  Off the back leg, on this, on the second one, you're kinda basing out here and you're, you're stepping back onto the, to the back leg, and when they open up, like they're gonna throw something, oh.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  You lean back and throw it up the middle.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're, you're changing the distance there, people don't expect it.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  For the calf kick, you're just light on the front leg and you're throwing it off the front leg, are you sliding forward? Are you just picking it up and stabbing?

• 54:45Speaker 03

  I just pick it up and stab it, 'cause they gotta close a little bit of distance to get that calf.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:48Speaker 03

  That one's, um, you know, the kick is a longer range, but that one you have to come a little bit closer, for me to throw it appropriately, some people smack it with the, the foot or whatever it is, I don't like that, I like that Dutch style, almost like a soccer kick, just, you're, you're raising it straight up and that shin bone is touching that soft calf, and so, to do it that way, I get a little bit closer distance, but then that's where, you know, you set it up and all the other stuff, be a little safer doing it that way.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, the calf kick's interesting because a, a lot of guys are kind of just going straight up.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  You know, like, you ever see Yuki Yozu fight?

• 55:22Speaker 03

  Uh-huh.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Uh, he's one of my favorite guys to watch fight.

• 55:24Speaker 03

  That's, that's probably like the perfect example of throwing a very, um, deliberate and, and technical calf kick is how he does it.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  He destroys people's legs, destroys them, and he's kicking up, he's kicking up all the time and there's no pivot, and it's so fast.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  Oh, 100%.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  It's so fast and there's no tell, and he's throwing it in every combination. So he's hitting you with a jab, he's inside low kicking you, the left hook, he's outside low kicking you, he's...

• 55:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's just smacking you from all the different levels.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Constantly, and taking out your base every time, every time you're close enough, he's taking out your base, every time, every time, and from all angles. I love watching this guy fight, he does that cool thing too, like what he just did, check out that, watch it. They gave him trouble for that, 'cause you're not supposed to do that in kickboxing, see, he does that, he hooks the guy's leg?

• 56:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  So he throws like a half-speed kick, show that back it up again, so you can see that? He throws like a half-speed kick, holds it, and then trips him.

• 56:16Speaker 03

  My dad was actually just talking about that one with me, that's, that's a very clean technique, yeah.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  But he is such a wild guy to watch because of the damage that he does to guys' legs.

• 56:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  So, this is what I love about the artistic aspect of it and the technical aspect, when people figure out, okay, what do you do when you're fighting a guy like this? Well, Jonathan Haggerty figured it out, it's constant switch stances, constant knees to the body, moving, jabbing, constant movement, you never let him get set up for those. You know, and he took a lot of leg kicks and that, but he landed way more than he took and he won the decision against Yozu, it was a big win. But it was also like a blueprint, like if people got to see that fight, they see, see you can find that fight, Jonathan Haggerty and Yuki Yozu?

• 56:59Speaker 03

  He did a really good job of picking that front leg up, that's, and that's, going back to MMA, is something that, it's still developing, but I don't see a lot of guys defend the calf kick, I see a lot of guys willingly eat them.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:10Speaker 03

  And it's like you do that with the shin guards on, you could probably spar all day and take calf kicks, you know?

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Sort of.

• 57:17Speaker 03

  If they're landing clean, like really clean, yeah, you're gonna feel it.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 03

  But for the most part, you pick the leg up, you pull it back a little bit, it doesn't land super flush, you could take it with shin guards on. You take, you take one good one with no shin guards on, it's a completely different game, it, it takes, you know, you get that leg away from you.

• 57:32Speaker 02

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• 58:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so look how Jonathan is never stationary, constantly switching stances, look, I mean literally constantly, and constant movement, and then, when you're thinking about the legs, the jab, the step forward knee, everything is constant movement, there's never a chance for Yozu to set up, and nice spinning back kick to the body there.

• 58:34Speaker 03

  That was so close too.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  I know, he's, he's wicked, man, this dude's wicked, but Haggerty figured him out, man, look at that, uh, outside low kick on a hop? I mean, in constant stance switches and that switch knee to the body, look, Yozu's looking for those, man. If you, you could only take so many of them from this guy too, he's got fucking stones for shins.

• 58:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, he's got no nerve endings, on anything below the knees.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  It's really incredible, man, watching this fight is, uh, a real masterclass in striking, and this is one thing that I always give credit to One for, I think One has the absolute best strikers, when it comes to just pure striking.

• 59:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  And the exciting guys that they have over there, uh, Azadullah Iman Ghazaliya, have you seen that guy fight?

• 59:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  He's my favorite, I, I fucking love watching that guy fight, like, it's like, Jesus Christ, he's good. And one of the guys that he trains with just fought in the PFL, Magomedov, did you see that fight?

• 59:30Speaker 03

  No.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  I forget how to say his name, uh, it's like, I think it's Abu or, uh, I forget his name. But, uh, he put on a masterclass in striking and he looked just like, uh, like, uh, Azadullah Iman Ghazaliya, like the way he was fighting, like that style, long, tall, striker, and these Dagestan guys, man, you got, Dagestan's got elite Muay Thai too. That's, it's crazy, yeah, that's a dude, uh, Amru, Amru Magomedov.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  Well, speaking of that...

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Show me a little bit of that, 'cause this cat, he fights just like Azadullah, like very similar, and I know they're from the same place.

• 1:00:05Speaker 03

  You talk about artistic, that's like Zabir, Mahesh Sari Pov is another one.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, he, and he was kind of the first of those guys that you go, "Oh", I, I think of these guys as wrestlers, but look at this guy, he's throwing 360 roundhouse kicks and wheel kicks.

• 1:00:20Speaker 03

  Well, he was doing like, I don't know, not Kung-Fu, but it's one of those practices before he was ever wrestling.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, it was like Sanchu or something.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  Uh-huh.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  But you watch this cat fight, he fights just like Azadullah, he's got that long reach, slick striking, wicked kicks, he, he throws a lot of high kicks.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  And that dude Alvarez that he's fighting was tough as shit dude cuz he he he took a lot before he finally wilted.

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  You could see he was hurting from the leg kicks already before that.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Oh, he's getting destroyed. This cat's vicious.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  Being a long guy like that is just so much more beneficial. That's why everybody thinks it's all these big muscle heads like like the OG UFC that that's that's the fighter build.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  The guy on the the guy on top of the world who's missed.

• 1:01:06Speaker 03

  It's like it's the tall, long, like skinny guy that can strike well. Like that's the perfect like MMA build.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, because they can strike you from six inches away from where you can strike them. That's a crazy advantage.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a back to where it was with Ty on Thursday, whatever it was. And he's like, I want to say he said 78 inch reach.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  He's like, he's like, I have a 78 inch reach. He's like, so I can touch you guys from this and that and he's southpaw and blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, well, yeah, like.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  That's like a light heavyweight reach.

• 1:01:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, well, no, dude, they both of those guys have crazy long reach. It's ridiculous.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Real, real long arms, real long legs. Perfect for triangles, perfect for for any kind of DARS.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  Guillotines, anything, rear naked's, rear naked with an arm in.

• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then you fight southpaw like this. It's like you could touch from a million miles away. That's what me, I'm the opposite. My whole style is all the way out or all the way in. I I gotta get in and get to work in there, you know? And and there's something to be said about that, too, because those two styles cancel each other out. If you have a long guy, he's not gonna fight as well on the inside. It's not saying that he can't, especially with the Muay Thai. The way they clinch is actually very efficient. And and with the boxing stuff, opening stuff up and being able to get your your longer limbs in there is is perfectly viable as well. It's just, you gotta play off of your of,

• 1:02:24Speaker 03

  you know, your god given talents and and your assets. And so the shorter guy is gonna negate the long guy by getting inside. And if the long guy can maintain the distance and keep him there, then he's gonna win that.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's benefits to all body types. It's just knowing what to do with that body type. Like, look, Mike Tyson is arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time. He's in the in the conversation with Ali and Joe Louis and there's a few guys that you could like put into that that category as the greatest heavyweight of all time. And I think Mike Tyson certainly in his prime was right there.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  You know, Lennox Lewis, you gotta put Lennox Lewis in that conversation. Even primetime Larry Holmes, you gotta put him in that conversation.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:03:08Speaker 02

  But Mike Tyson was 5' 11", you know, as a heavyweight. That's crazy. And he was only like 215, 220 in his prime. But that bombing and weaving and constant movement, he would just overwhelm guys. You see the tall guys putting their hands out. They just, they were just dealing with this fucking Wolverine that was running towards them.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, and and I had just seen something from him or read a quote and he he said, it wasn't my physicality that was my greatest asset. It was my elusiveness. It was that I was so elusive that I could get in and I could get to work, you know?

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  And a lot of people, unless you're like a real practitioner or, you know, a student of the sport, they don't see that. They just see, they just see the bombs coming and and they attribute that to, he's got punching power, he's this monster. But they're just so much more intricate, you know? It's like you said about Anderson, like this is an art form. This is it's a game of of setting things up. It's a chess match, you know? Everybody looks at it like it's checkers, but it's there's so many more moves that could be made and that need to be made to be the best at this.

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  And you really want to be appreciated by the people that understand that. You don't want to be the guy that gives in to the the howls and the the cheers of the casuals. The the real feeling, the good feeling that fighters get is when someone is a true student of the game, who really understands what they like, I love when you're doing this. I love that thing you do and you do. There's though that's what guys want to hear. They want to hear like from their fellow fighters. Like if, you know, like when an elite fighter goes up to another elite fighter, it's like, bro, I fucking love what you're doing. You could see they're like, thank you. Like, it's like it hits different.

• 1:04:48Speaker 03

  Oh, 100%.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  Means more when when you know that a guy is really operating at a very high level.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Right, yeah, cuz the rest of the people have never stepped room into even a gym to spar or like go a couple rounds of grappling, you know? So it's.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  They oftentimes they don't know what they're seeing.

• 1:05:03Speaker 03

  They have no understanding.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  Sometimes they think when the guy's missing, it's cuz he sucks.

• 1:05:06Speaker 03

  You know what? Is funny is that even I have had that realization cuz like growing up, it was like me and my pops watching UFC and to me, I, you know, that was that was my thing. But I would always sit there and go, well, why doesn't this guy do this? It's right there. Just do that. It's right there. It's like, dude, you're not standing in a cage surrounded by thousands of people. You don't have the same fatigue. You don't know injuries you're going into with it. You don't know what you practiced leading up to it that you even have the capacity to think about and to act on. It's like, there's just so many things. So like I watch stuff now and I'm so much better at that because I I'm sitting there going, he could do that, but I don't know what he's seeing, you know? I don't know what's going on in his mind. So

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's there's different levels to it.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. It's, I mean, it's a very complex game. It really is. I wanted to ask you a question. Do you think that it was a benefit for you to lose your first two fights? Do you think there's maybe something to that? Cuz we were talking about your first two opponents in the UFC being undefeated until they fought you. They had never experienced loss as a professional before. And then they get on this crazy big hype thing. And there's something about being undefeated as well, especially when you're a guy like Wellmakers, not just undefeated, but a knockout artist. Like people get really, really jazzed up and excited about that. Do you think that maybe having that bad feeling of loss earlier in your career maybe grounded you more?

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, certainly. I uh, I went 6-0 undefeated as an amateur, but I could tell you at that time, I was not living a fighter's lifestyle to the fullest, you know? At that time, I would literally go to practice in the morning and then I had to go to work at night or whatever. But I was like, man, fighting's the best. You just go wake up, practice once, you get to kick it the whole rest of the day. You get to go fight and make all this money and live your dream. If that's all it takes, this is cool. And I'm winning all these amateur scene fights, which that's what the amateurs are for, for learning and getting your experience. But

• 1:07:10Speaker 03

  yeah, it really showed me that there was change that needed to be be made in what I did with with fighting and what I did outside of fighting. And outside of fighting was was arguably more important, you know? There was a lot that I needed to change, a lot that I needed to refocus on and and make right by. And it wasn't until I did those things that I saw this this drastic change, you know? It wasn't until I that I erased all the negatives and then filled it with all the positives that

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  I'm able to be on a 10-fight win streak doing what I'm doing now because who knows? I mean, maybe maybe I would have changed that, but I don't think it would have been as drastic if I hadn't experienced those two losses the way I did.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  So before those two losses, your first two professional fights, were you kind of fucking off?

• 1:08:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, what were you doing?

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  Just everything. I mean,

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  Drinking, partying.

• 1:08:08Speaker 03

  Smoking, drinking, being a delinquent, being not the best partner.

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  How old were you back then?

• 1:08:15Speaker 03

  I came back from college in 2017. I uh, tore my meniscus in a dual meet and then my coach was.

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  Same knee?

• 1:08:24Speaker 03

  Uh, my right knee, different knee. Coach was an asshole about it. I snap, crackle, popped all the way through the rest of the season. It wasn't until after.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Coach was an asshole about it? In what way? Like you didn't want to admit?

• 1:08:33Speaker 03

  He just ignored it like completely. He just pretty much told me suck it up, like.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  Oh, what a great coach.

• 1:08:38Speaker 03

  And uh, yeah, exactly. That's why I didn't go back. I mean, it was a lot of things. I was in Bristol, Tennessee. So it's like, there's not a whole lot to do out there coming from SoCal. So that was a a culture shock. I was on my own for the very first time. And then, yeah, I got hurt. So then I started, I don't know, everybody else is out there partying and stuff. I never partied. I grew up very religious. I was very strict. I all throughout high school, I didn't, I didn't touch anything. I didn't look anything. I didn't wanted to partake in anything. I I just wrestled. That was my only drug was wrestling back then, you know, like that's all I did. And I had a lot of success then. And it wasn't until I deviated from that course and I started finding

• 1:09:19Speaker 03

  fun or enjoyment or just maybe just trying to fill time and and numb some of the things that I was thinking about or worrying about or like that wrestling thing. It might not have been the biggest thing to people, but for me, like, that was my first time experiencing where I had just placed like eighth in California State. I was fifth at the national tournament. I was just just doing everything right. You know, I had won the US Open for my age division. And then I go to this and I'm on my own for the first time and I have all this adversity and it's just like, I don't know, I just felt like, like, why is this happening to me, you know? I felt like uh,

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  I I had been abandoned at that point. And maybe maybe other people would have recovered from it better, but that was a first time experience for me. So, but yeah, I was barely 19 years old around that time. I think I probably started fighting around in the amateurs around 20. So I was I was relatively young, but.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  So that's when you started partying?

• 1:10:12Speaker 03

  I was, as soon as I tore my meniscus, I finished out the wrestling season. And then I remember like even school like slouched off. Like I did, I wasn't really caring about school too much. We had finals. I didn't really even try too hard. And then I went, I remember that day, as soon as the last final was done, we all went to the my buddy's house. And that's the first time I ever got drunk, like ever. And so and it's not to say that those things are like the end of the world if if you're controlling them, but I certainly wasn't, you know? I had like a lot of compounding things being first time. And uh, that carried over. It was like that all the way up until.

• 1:10:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, it was after that second loss. I was probably still not doing what I needed to be doing to be a disciplined athlete. A respectable, just like, you know, good person, really. I wasn't, I wasn't being a good person and uh. Yeah, there was, there was a lot of change, a lot of growth. You know, I had a lot of people. Guide me back into that and as soon as I made those changes. Yeah, now, now I'm here. Haven't been able to live and experience it, because that's the best teacher out of all of them, you know. You can go and watch a YouTube video on how to do something, right? Like fix a car. Oh, I know exactly where the alternator is. I know where this, this pump is. I know how this connects to this. Then the second you open it up.

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  It's like, okay, well, I didn't know I needed this tool and wow, this is really way harder to pull off and it's the experience. It's the hardship and experience that teaches you things. So 100%. If I hadn't gone through that. Who knows where I'd be and what I'd be doing right now?

• 1:11:50Speaker 02

  You, when you hurt your knee in college. Was that the first time you'd ever done, where you had an injury where it completely compromised your ability to perform? Where you realized like, oh, like my body's very vulnerable?

• 1:12:04Speaker 03

  Um, so I, I had actually sprained my ankle. It was, it's called the OC duels. It's like the number one and number two in Orange County face off. And uh. I had tore up my ankle pretty good and I was going into league and then CIF and all that stuff and. I had almost worried that I wouldn't be able to wrestle, which is a big thing. Luckily, I was able to wrestle on that. But yes, I guess the meniscus was probably the first time where it really took me out of my game like that. And to me, it was more of a. I don't know if it was a vulnerability of the body, like I.

• 1:12:41Speaker 03

  Had come to terms with that. I, I understood that. Um.

• 1:12:47Speaker 03

  I don't know. I've, maybe I, I thought it, there was a higher power like protecting me and at that moment, like I was no longer protected. And I had been abandoned and that's kind of what got to me, honestly, is I thought. Like God had. Abandoned me essentially at that time.

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Really? You didn't think like maybe God would, did you even consider that it was a challenge?

• 1:13:07Speaker 03

  I can look back on it and say with certainty that is.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  But you were young.

• 1:13:11Speaker 03

  I was young and that's, that's why I said I clouded my mind with a bunch of other things and. Instead of focusing on it and, and thinking about it clearly, I just. Just moved farther away from the issue. So like at that time, that's what I thought. Now, being a mature man, having grown my relationship with God, having. Read and studied and, and understanding that, like I said, that those hardships. Are what build us. Is that, that's what tests our faith and what really brings us closer to God. Now I see that it wasn't as big as I had made it, you know, but I learned and. And maybe falling farther down the path taught me even more.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it does. I think fall, I think failing is actually a very good teacher. I really do. I think in all aspects of your life. And especially when you're a young person, you have this idea of who you are. Having that get knocked down where you have to rebuild is very important because once you rebuild and you realize like, okay. Now I know what I'm capable of. Now I know that there's, this is, there's going to be ups and downs, but I must maintain the path.

• 1:14:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

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• 1:16:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, they did a scope on it, so they, they shaved the part that was hanging away. Which to me, I wish I had never done.

• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:23Speaker 03

  Because that knee gave, has gives me issues to today, like. Any of this inversion, like a triangle choke with the right leg going over. That meniscus, it was my lateral meniscus outside. It rolls over and it catches. So then I gotta bring my leg straight and pop it back into place. And uh, it's gotten better. You know, I, I get through it quicker these days, but.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  They tell you to not even get that surgery now.

• 1:16:45Speaker 03

  Well, so that my. My second professional fight where I got ankle locked, I got a. I think it was like an outside reap and I went to sit up to, to grab it. And he had the position locked and my knee just went like eight times in my ear, real bad. And it was in the same exact spot, that lateral meniscus, the outer, which uh. I don't know what, what other ligament is on the outside there. But uh, to me, it was like exactly where the, the meniscus on the right leg had happened. But I grabbed up, or sat up, I grabbed his arms. I kept trying to fight through it and then he switched it over to the. To the heel hook on the other side. My ankle popped twice as I rolled and I finally tapped then.

• 1:17:26Speaker 03

  But I didn't, I didn't even get an MRI on that one. I tried to. It took so long that. I was doing the knees over toes and strengthening and I was starting to move on it that by the time they're like, okay, we can get your MRI in a week. I'm like, dude, I'm already moving and exercising and doing stuff on this. Like. I was cool, but yeah, I never did anything with that and that knee's. Really never given me any issues. And then the one I got the scope on, still bothers me to today.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, they don't recommend that anymore because they did a study of people that have had meniscus surgery. Versus not, not having meniscus surgery and just rehabilitation and it shows that rehabilitation seems to be the better path.

• 1:18:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  I mean, especially for like, I have one that's been scoped and it bothers me all the time. That's the one I got shot up today.

• 1:18:11Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  It always bothers me. It's like there's a missing padding on one side of it. It's missing. But I had a bucket handle tear and in jiu-jitsu, it would lock. And my leg would be stuffed, like stiff and I could, I had to like push it back into place. It was excruciating.

• 1:18:26Speaker 03

  It was like stuck locked out?

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And it would go back eventually, but it would take, sometimes it would take a day before and it would swell up. You know, but if I knew, first of all, this is a long time ago. Unfortunately, there was no stem cells available back then.

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  I would have 100% just done stem cells and now would have done the knees over toes stuff. And a lot of cycling, like stationary box, bike cycling at not high resistance. It's a fairly low resistance. It's just repetitive motion. Really good for getting the blood flow to the knees and really good for strengthening up the tendons and the ligaments and everything, but without load. You know, it's just, you do it at like a very low resistance and just for a long time.

• 1:19:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  And that's really good for your knees.

• 1:19:10Speaker 03

  Sweet. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's so many things. Like I think even like leg extensions would probably be like. A good little exercise for the knees. I mean. It's a pretty deliberate spot. I think, you know, like backpacking. I think, I think like a controlled version of that because there's a lot of times you're, you know, you're dropping down like pretty heavily. This and that, which is probably not the best.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  Downhill?

• 1:19:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:30Speaker 03

  But if you were doing it like, cause that's kind of the knees over toes is he's doing some similar motions. If you had some, maybe not as much weight. Some weight on your back and you could slowly kind of find that and then have a soft landing like.

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:19:42Speaker 03

  I don't know, I was backpacking recently and I was just thinking about this like. Like in a controlled setting, like in a gym, like on a machine that I'm like, maybe not as much as like a steep incline or decline. Like something like that would be really good. And then the range of motion stuff is. I, I've had, you know, with, with my injury and stuff and time to step away, I've had like a lot of opportunity to think and. I, I feel like I've, I've grown tremendously and it's like, yeah, all the little tiny things, like the knees, like they're fine, like. I, I do it. I really don't have an issue too much. Like maybe if I get into that position, it'll do it. But it's like, you know, what happens when I do get into like a position, let's say a leg lock position, for example. Or like a, a straight knee bar and, you know, what if my, my flexibility is an issue there?

• 1:20:26Speaker 03

  Or just simply like a wizard position where the knees getting popped up, like just any, there's a, there's a million and one positions that the knees could be compromised there and. So yeah, it's going back, doing a lot of range of motion stuff, a lot of strengthening on the knees.

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  Do you do, uh, Poliquin step downs? Do you know those?

• 1:20:43Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  Uh, Charles Poliquin, seeing if you can find Poliquin, it's very simple. You're essentially doing it, either you're doing it from, um, an incline board with like a little bit of elevation. Or you're just doing it from a straight up step. And what you're doing is you're just lowering yourself down. So one foot is above on the step and the other foot. You're lowering it like that, like there, there you go. He's doing it on plates. Very simple. Very simple, right? I mean, you're literally only going like 10 inches. But you're going up and down like that and it's just controlling the body weight like that. Phenomenal for knee strengthening. And for knee stability. It's excellent. It's one of the best exercises.

• 1:21:23Speaker 02

  You doing, uh, backwards pulls with like either a sled or on a treadmill? Do you walk backwards doing that?

• 1:21:30Speaker 03

  I, I'm not doing like really any exercises, uh, weight and like, I mean, I do little things, but. For strength and conditioning after boxing, but I stay away from the weights.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  But it's not even for the weights. I'm talking, I mean, you do it on a treadmill.

• 1:21:45Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  You do on a treadmill, just basically keep the treadmill off and just with your own resistance, you put, you step backwards.

• 1:21:51Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  So you put your back to the screen.

• 1:21:54Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  And hold on to the bars and you're basically just pushing with your legs going backwards. And it's really good for strengthening your knees and also for blood flow. That's a knees over toes guy thing.

• 1:22:03Speaker 03

  Okay, alright.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  His, his page is phenomenal. That guy is.

• 1:22:06Speaker 03

  I'll go to the, yeah, the 24 hour fitness and burn out their treadmill.

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you can do that or you could use a sled. You know, we do it with a sled here. You know, you put the sled, you put like a waist strap and you just back up and pull the sled. It doesn't have to be a lot of weight. It's not, it's not a weight thing.

• 1:22:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  It's really just a circulation thing and a, a strengthening thing.

• 1:22:23Speaker 03

  He has another one that, uh, you get the band around your back and then you're kinda. Forgot how he did it. You're, you're essentially like, uh, leaned over and then straightening the leg. It's got, it's, it, you're like in a lunge, I guess, actually. You're in a lunge, the knee goes over the toes. You have the resistance on the back and then you're pushing and essentially doing the same thing as probably walking back with the sled.

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  Band is attached in the front or in behind you?

• 1:22:49Speaker 03

  It's attached in the front.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Oh, I see.

• 1:22:51Speaker 03

  Resistance is pulling you forward.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:22:52Speaker 03

  And you're, you're lunged over the knee, the knee over the toe. And then you're, you're extending that, that leg and it's just hitting that knee perfectly. It's, it's very similar to the one you're talking about, I'm sure.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, because so much time you spend pushing forward and not a lot of people spend much time pushing backwards. But pushing backwards is really important.

• 1:23:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:23:11Speaker 02

  It's really important to just to overall knee strength.

• 1:23:14Speaker 03

  Right. I think, I think the side to side stuff too is like, I, I was almost like, let me get in the sand. And I do a lot of like working out in the sand just for the boxing, for the, for the footwork and, and being able to stay in a stance, but. Like that little like side explosion stuff would probably start strengthening those, those muscles on the side and the ligaments going that way. And then I'm trying to think like, you know, how do you get that? That motion. I mean, you could get a band and probably like do a kind of like a lateral extension or. Pull it up into your, like an inward extension.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  You know, he used to do a lot of weird shit with bands, BJ Penn.

• 1:23:49Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  He did a lot of weird shit in his prime.

• 1:23:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Speaker 02

  With like flexibility stuff and developing strength from weird positions with bands.

• 1:23:56Speaker 03

  Huh. Yeah, I see, uh. I don't know if BJ was, was a part of that program, but like the Rafael Dos Anjos, all the fa- the fascia kind of stuff.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, well Rafael Dos Anjos was training with Nick Kerson. Nick Kerson was a student of, uh, Marv Marinovich.

• 1:24:14Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  And Marv Marinovich is the guy who trained BJ when he was like in his prime.

• 1:24:18Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  When he, when he really got super serious about cardio, but it's a very controversial approach. The Marinovich's approach was you already know how to fight. So forget about fight training. We're just gonna give you the most fucking insane gas tank you've ever had. And that way you'll be able to execute everything you want. And so the primary focus was just plyometrics. And their conditioning program and it was hell.

• 1:24:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  And BJ did not like going through it, but when he went through it, he was like unstoppable.

• 1:24:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:45Speaker 02

  Cause he just never gassed.

• 1:24:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  And it's, that's the interesting thing about conditioning in general. Is we have these ideas of what the threshold is, like what a human body's capable of doing for five minutes, for three rounds or five rounds. Like in terms of what kind of pace that you could put up. And then you have certain guys that come along that sort of redefine what the threshold is, like Murab. Murab comes along and here you got some guy whose gas tank is fucking superhuman. And he makes the best fighters in the world just wilt under the, this constant pressure of being taken down. And his strength and his, his, his skills as a wrestler, it's just this constant attack, constant, constant, constant, constant.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  And you wonder like, okay, what, how long did it take to build up that reserve? How long did it take to build up that gas tank? That's not something you can achieve in just one camp.

• 1:25:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:25:38Speaker 02

  Like that's, that's something that takes literal years to develop.

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  Oh, for sure. That's why, I mean, like I said, going back to wrestling, my, my, what, what I would say, my superpower, my. Most utilized skillset was my, my cardio, my gas tank, you know? Um, and I don't know, I, what is it? Anabolic versus anaerobic? Like the striking versus the grappling cardio?

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:03Speaker 03

  I think there's something to be said about that wrestling cardio, like just that like strict. You're just grinding it out 24/7. You know, you're always colliding, your muscles are always tensed up. I think there's something to be said about that. That if you had great wrestling cardio, you could do almost anything in the world.

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  It builds up a, a foundation that's kind of unstoppable.

• 1:26:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  If you can maintain that kind of work ethic.

• 1:26:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  Cause it's, it's a, it's insane. That's the other thing about it. It's the mental toughness that comes from wrestling.

• 1:26:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  There's some, like when a guy has like an elite wrestling background and he enters into the UFC, I always say. They have an advantage. They have an advantage over everybody else because. Whether or not you choose to put yourself or you get coached by someone who puts you through hell in camp. With wrestling, you don't have a choice. Like everyone's going through hell.

• 1:26:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  There's, no one is get, there's no easy path to get on a fucking wrestling team anywhere in the country.

• 1:26:54Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, you have to wrestle for your, your position.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:57Speaker 03

  It's literal. You got, got to battle for that, that spot, you know? And then the practices. Once or twice a day of just purely grinding it out. Staying in a wrestling stance alone is extremely tough to do. Now you're doing it at. Elevated pace. Now you're doing it with someone snapping on your head. Now you're doing, it's like. And then you go and you, you do live wrestling and then finish it up with sprints. Yeah, to me, to me, there's nothing that beats that, like. And, and I think. The, the style of it is like go, go, go. Like even jiu-jitsu, you're finding places to rest. You know, you can throw on, in the guard and, and you can, you can rest in certain entanglements. Striking is all about being able to have an explosive motion and then find your way to.

• 1:27:40Speaker 03

  To be defensive, to slow down what they're doing. You're either, you're getting in stuffing it. You're at a distance where you can be a little bit relaxed because they can't reach you. Or, you know, you're, you're moving off, making them miss where there's no resistance there, you know? I, just with wrestling, you don't have any of that. There's, there's no chance for a break, especially if you've got someone like Murab who's just on you 24/7. And so to me, that's, you know, back to the cardio thing we talked about earlier, I don't know, I. I think if you got, yeah, elite wrestling cardio, then you could do all the rest of it. You'd be able to strike, you'd be able to do the jiu-jitsu entanglements, like you can hang. For that duration of time with great cardio.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  It's also if you could figure out how to be a great wrestler, you can kind of figure out anything. It's just a matter of taking that same focus that turned you into a great wrestler and applying it to whatever it is. MMA, whatever, whatever else you're trying to do. Cause if you're willing to go through what it took to become a great wrestler, that's an extraordinary human.

• 1:28:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  Very few people ever reach a, a very high level of wrestling. It's just too fucking hard.

• 1:28:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:42Speaker 02

  And it's the best foundation for combat sports for sure, for MMA. Because if you could take a guy down and he can't take you down, that's a massive advantage.

• 1:28:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  Massive. You dictate where the fight takes place. And if you develop elite striking on top of that. It's a perfect combination.

• 1:28:58Speaker 03

  Oh, for sure. I mean, a- anybody asking me personally, I would say. Get a wrestling background, get some boxing, you can figure out the rest of it.

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:07Speaker 03

  You can figure out how to check kicks, block kicks. You can, you can do the rest of it. But if you have those two fundamental core bases, yeah, you're, you're pretty good against most people.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  I would say that too, but I would say another thing is, and this is very controversial. If I was to teaching a young kid, I would say, get into point karate. Learn point karate. Because if you could learn how to move the way those guys move, the things that those guys, when you see like Michael Ven and Page just stump people.

• 1:29:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:29:34Speaker 02

  They're just stumped. Like, I don't have any, like Kevin Holland, who is, fights everybody. He's fucking competitive with everybody he fights. With MVP, he was just stumped. Like, what am I gonna, what the fuck am I doing? I can't even touch this guy.

• 1:29:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  That is a giant skillset. And I always said before MVP came onto the scene, I'm like, one of these guys, one of these really elite point fighter guys, is gonna come in and start fucking everybody up because you can't hit them.

• 1:29:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, and that goes back, like him and like Wonder Boy are both the prime examples of a karate-style individual.

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:30:08Speaker 03

  Um, and they're really long, so, you know, they can utilize that a little bit to their advantage with that, that lungi in and out. But, to be honest, yeah, that's something that, like, I've wanted to delve into a little bit more with myself, because I like, I can throw kicks really well, honestly. I have, I have good flexibility. I have the ability to throw them with, with speed, with power. Um, but having something like that, where you can throw it nice and fast and snappy, those little side kicks, and, and the way that they throw the kicks is great.

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:30:37Speaker 03

  I mean, the only other relation I would have to that is the, the Savat style. I like the way the Savat-style guys throw their kicks.

• 1:30:43Speaker 02

  I'm not very familiar with Savat.

• 1:30:45Speaker 03

  The only thing that I, I don't utilize myself is a lot of the toe stuff, because I'm not wearing shoes.

• 1:30:51Speaker 02

  Oh, like toe kicks to the body?

• 1:30:53Speaker 03

  They're, they're like stabbing you with their toes. Like, everything. Like, they'll even, they're even kicking like your leg.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  Well, you know, Yozu does that.

• 1:30:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  He stabs guys in the body with his toes.

• 1:31:01Speaker 03

  It's like the ball of his foot, right?

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  Well, he's going in with the toes, man.

• 1:31:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:04Speaker 02

  There's a lot of, like, slow-mo videos of him stabbing guys in the liver with his fucking toes.

• 1:31:10Speaker 03

  You know who else is really good?

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  Conditioning their toes.

• 1:31:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, that's the thing is, you better have some, you probably have many, multiple breaks on each toe, leading up to that, yeah.

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:19Speaker 03

  Because it's just, that's why we were talking about the front kick. To the body is good if you do it like a traditional Muay Thai, where you're going up and, and out, which is fantastic. You can produce a lot of speed and power. But I think everybody does this, this kind of shovel up toes into the body kick nowadays in MMA world. That's what I see more so. I mean, Connor, Connor utilized the heck out of that. Uh, most guys bring the toes up. It's, and you better be very precise with that, because all it takes is one elbow blocking down and your toes out, yeah.

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  Did you see, um, Ro- Rodriguez's toes after he fought Fluffy?

• 1:31:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  Did you see that picture? Jamie, pull that picture up. It was off Gregory Rodriguez's, his Instagram page. After he beat Fluffy, uh, he showed a photo of his, you haven't seen it?

• 1:32:06Speaker 03

  I haven't seen it, actually, no.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  Oh, you're gonna cringe. It's hell.

• 1:32:09Speaker 03

  Is it like, like a Jon Jones break, or the?

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  Worse.

• 1:32:12Speaker 03

  Ugh, bones are sticking out?

• 1:32:13Speaker 02

  The bones aren't sticking out, but it's, it's hellacious. You look at what happened to his toes.

• 1:32:17Speaker 03

  Dude, and that one, like, that takes it out of you. You start smashing your toes like that, and you gotta continue fighting?

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:22Speaker 03

  Or you gotta continue on a fight camp with, like, broken toes?

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. That's what, one of my wrestling camps, I was chasing my brother in the front yard the day before, and his heel came back, and my pinky toe was like this, straight sideways. Went to the, the family doctor.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  Look at that.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I have a picture just like that, actually, with my fingers, my toes throwing west side.

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  Oh, look at that. Jesus. Ow!

• 1:32:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's terrible.

• 1:32:48Speaker 02

  Those feet have seen some elbows, son.

• 1:32:50Speaker 03

  Right. It's got a big old bunnies and everything on there.

• 1:32:53Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:32:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's tough. That's a, he did it in really good fashion, too.

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's a guy that's just, I don't understand how he makes 185.

• 1:33:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:33:06Speaker 02

  I don't understand it. Whenever I interview him, I'm like, you're 220 pounds, sir.

• 1:33:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:11Speaker 02

  How are you, you're at least 220, and shredded.

• 1:33:15Speaker 03

  I know. I mean, it, it's like, I guess the bigger guys have a little bit more to lose. It's, they probably float a little bit.

• 1:33:21Speaker 02

  Well, with all that muscle, you have water to lose, for sure.

• 1:33:24Speaker 03

  Right. If you're shredded, I mean, that's one thing to be said, but especially like heavyweights, like the Alex Paredes, I'm sure he, he gets a little bit looser, goes up to 220 and then, but that's, but that's still 40 pounds. I mean, that's a lot of weight.

• 1:33:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a lot of weight to lose. And, but...

• 1:33:40Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know. I mean, look at Aljo cutting to 135.

• 1:33:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:46Speaker 03

  He's like, walk, 175 pounds.

• 1:33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:49Speaker 03

  You know? I mean, I think-

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  But he doesn't do it anymore, and he feels way better at 45.

• 1:33:53Speaker 03

  For sure. And he had to move up because of that. I think a lot of the bantamweights get up to relatively that weight. I think everybody, I think, that's why I, I've started seeing people try to comment the, the whole weight bully thing. They've said it to me on Instagram, this and that. They saw one of my training pictures where I was a little, a little loose, and, uh, they're like, the funniest comment was someone was like, like, "Hire a nutritionist ASAP," like, and I was just cracking up at that, like, these guys are roasting me, but, um, yeah, I think everybody cuts relatively the same amount of weight.

• 1:34:26Speaker 02

  How big do you get? Like, what's the heaviest you get in between?

• 1:34:29Speaker 03

  135.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  No, that's what you weigh, son. What do you weigh when you, when you thicken up? What's the heaviest you've ever been?

• 1:34:36Speaker 03

  Like, 175 is probably, give or take. Maybe like 178 if I'm just full of food, eating and being a delinquent, but, yeah. I get up there pretty big, so...

• 1:34:45Speaker 02

  But when you're in camp, like, the week before, what do you like to be at?

• 1:34:49Speaker 03

  Uh, I've had all my cuts right around 150. I don't really get much lower than that.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  That's not too bad.

• 1:34:55Speaker 03

  It's not the end of the world. I mean, 149, 148, 145 would be beautiful. If I could just do 10, be no problem, but, uh, this last time, we did 11 in one night, and it was smooth sailing. You know, I just keep, that's another thing. You experience it more, you get better and better at it. And, uh, I've gotten wiser that the, the sauna doesn't have to be a million and 10 degrees, you know? Like,

• 1:35:19Speaker 03

  the, the UFC portable saunas, I think it like maxed out at 150, it said.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:35:24Speaker 03

  And I could sit in that for 22, 25 minutes.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  Is that a red light sauna? The portable ones? It probably is, right?

• 1:35:32Speaker 03

  Probably is. I don't recall, but I'm sure it is. But that with the emergency blankets, and then cooling off in between, that's something that I had to get wiser to as well, you know, like, because everybody tries to tell you, "You're already there, you're already sweating, like, don't, don't lose the heat." And it's like, "No, dude, this isn't a sprint, this isn't a marathon. Like, we're taking this nice and easy," so, like, this last time, I was taking all my gear off, putting ice on the body, cooling the body temperature back down, which is, is arguably the most important aspect of the whole weight cut is the body temperature versus the dehydration. Because the body gets dehydrated, and it has more of a capacity to deal with that than it does to overheat. If you overheat, you're done for. Like, that's, it is what it is.

• 1:36:14Speaker 02

  So is the overheating, does that drain you more in terms of, like, your ability to recover for the next day? Like, so when you're cutting weight, if you're doing it at like 180 or something like that, something high, and is it that, like, because it does wear you out, obviously, like, if I do a sauna session for 20 minutes, when I get out, I'm tired.

• 1:36:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:31Speaker 02

  So, you've got to think, if you're doing multiple ones of those, if you're trying to make weight, and then you have to fight the next day, you went through a lot physically.

• 1:36:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:36:39Speaker 02

  As opposed to what you're doing, like, if you got it at 150, it's not that bad. It's just, just sucks a little.

• 1:36:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, because, because I've, I've done both, like, and, and, and that's, you're throwing a sauna suit on as well, you know, the sweet sweat, the sauna suit, and then you get in that, that portable sauna, but it's like before, I was, I was doing that with a pair of, of, I don't know, like, uh, spandex, you know, like, top and bottom, and then a jacket, and then sweats, and then a big jacket, and then I'm getting in the 180, 190-degree 24-hour sauna and sitting there for 15 minutes. It's like, it's like, dude, yeah, I felt, there's, there's been weight cuts where I just feel like, like terrible, atrocious. I look terrible, you know? And then I have some of these more recent ones where I, I lower the temperature down, I, I

• 1:37:25Speaker 03

  extend the duration of, of how long the, the weight cut is itself, and there's, there's a major difference in it, for sure.

• 1:37:31Speaker 02

  That's really good advice. Work smarter, not harder.

• 1:37:34Speaker 03

  Oh, wait, dude, you, you've trained for two months over just pushing your body to the absolute limit. You're gonna go fight somebody for 15 minutes, you know, possibly 25 minutes. You're, there's all this hard stuff already happening, you know, that, that part should not be hard. That should be the, it's, it's going to be hard, but you should make it as easy as possible. That should be the mindset to it.

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• 1:40:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. Did you see the Moses Itama fight this weekend?

• 1:40:15Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't think so.

• 1:40:16Speaker 02

  Do you know who he is, right?

• 1:40:18Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  No? Okay, he, up until this fight, was probably the most promising prospect in the heavyweight division in more than a decade. He is a young guy, he's only 21 years old, and people were talking about him being, uh, able to break Mike Tyson's record of being the youngest ever heavyweight champion. So he missed that mark, and then he finally got a title fight this weekend. Looked phenomenal for the first few rounds.

• 1:40:47Speaker 03

  Oh, oh, oh, oh. I know exactly what you're talking about.

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  Yes. And, uh, he was fighting this big Croatian cat. I, I forget his name.

• 1:40:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:55Speaker 02

  Uh, Filip Hrgozovic. And, uh, he couldn't-

• 1:41:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, he was stunting on that first.

• 1:41:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, at the beginning, he was tuning this guy up. I mean, he's so fast and so lea- but he had never been into deep water before. Every one of his fights, he'd been able to stop people. And he hadn't had any, like, real good decision wins where he fought a bit. And he's not the biggest heavyweight, but he's wicked fast. I mean, just wicked fast and beautiful technique, but as the fight went on, he started to fade, and in the eighth, you could see him, like, really slowing down and just really trying to take this dude out, but couldn't. And thought he could. It was emptying the gas tank. Instead of boxing him and just, uh, outpointing him and being skillful, he just was inexperienced, and he emptied the gas tank, and then

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  Filip came back, man.

• 1:41:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, he finished him.

• 1:41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, he finished him in a weird way. It's like, it was almost exhaustion.

• 1:41:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, he was just stumbling over himself at that point.

• 1:41:54Speaker 02

  Cause they're both exhausted, cause it was a war. There's a nice right hand, and he stung him there.

• 1:41:58Speaker 03

  Well, did you see their little, like, table talk where they're

• 1:42:01Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:42:01Speaker 03

  Sitting across from each other?

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:03Speaker 03

  And, uh, he's all like, it's not about, you know, like, how many times you can get hit, or you can hit somebody, it's about how many times you can get hit and keep coming forward?

• 1:42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:12Speaker 03

  And then, then Moses is like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. He's like, why would you base your fighting style off, like, how many times you can get hit? And then, lo and behold, you know, like, this comes across. That's why, you know, I talk about technicality and finesse and, and skill set, and it's a game of hit and don't get hit. But, dude, you could just have someone who's just so tough and just so willing that this is a perfect scenario. That, that's, that's why there is so many aspects to this fight game.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  Well, it was really funny, because he was basically quoting Rocky.

• 1:42:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  He really did quote, "It ain't about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit."

• 1:42:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:42:48Speaker 02

  "And keep moving forward."

• 1:42:49Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  And he, you know, and-

• 1:42:51Speaker 03

  And he pulled a Rocky on him.

• 1:42:52Speaker 02

  He literally did exactly what he said he was gonna do. But it's all these things. It's like youth and hubris and thinking you're the greatest of all time, and, and looked like the greatest of all. Pull up a Moses Itama highlight reel. Cause if you look at his highlight reel, you're like, this guy's the second coming. Like, this guy is something really special, man. When you watch how he fights, I mean, his, his hand speed, his knockout power, and for a young guy, you know, this, this fight, I think he was 20, and you look at his highlight reel, you're like, oh my god, the sky's the limit for this kid. He's just putting everybody out. But, you know, he wasn't really being tested, you know, and then he finally, I think, was it Derek Chisora? Who did he fight before this fight?

• 1:43:36Speaker 02

  He finally beat a top-level guy, and he took him out. And so, but, you know, it was a guy who's a real veteran, been around a long time.

• 1:43:46Speaker 03

  Uh-huh.

• 1:43:47Speaker 02

  And he kind of thought that he could put it on everybody and knock everybody out. But, you know, this is like, one of the things about any combat sport, is you, you have to know when to hit the gas, when not to, and you have to have those experiences of these long, grueling fights, and he really didn't have that yet. So his first experience with, uh, yeah, Dillian White, that's who it was. And his long, his first experience with, uh, a real, no, it was, it was Chisora, I think. Cause I think it was Dillian White first, and then Chisora was the next fight afterwards. Am I right about that?

• 1:44:24Speaker 03

  This is just his KOs on this video.

• 1:44:26Speaker 02

  What is it? Pull up his record. Who was his last fight before Hrgovic?

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  But, I mean, I still think he's got potential to be a world champion, for sure. I mean, the kid's only 21 years old.

• 1:44:40Speaker 03

  Jermaine Franklin?

• 1:44:41Speaker 02

  Dillian White, right there. That's who it was. It wasn't Derek Chisora, it was Dillian White. Um, Jermaine Franklin was right after that. So every fight has been TKO, TKO, TKO, TKO, TKO. I mean, if you watch his fights, I mean, they're fucking stunning performances, but wasn't really being tested in that way with a really big, durable heavyweight who could take a shot, who, you know, has a ton of experience. And, you know, now he's got his first loss, but he'll be back.

• 1:45:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:45:16Speaker 02

  He's only 21.

• 1:45:17Speaker 03

  Well, that's, you know, on the that's, that's how they do it in boxing. They feed these guys, build them up, and then, when they're solidified, now, now you fight somebody who's substantial, you know? Um, and that's, you know, I've done a lot of comparisons, but that's, to me, where the MMA guys are just more down to go and do their thing. They'll fight anybody at any given time.

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  Is that by decision, though, or is that by necessity? Because the UFC, you know, if they call you up and say, "Hey, uh, in four weeks, do you want to fight for the world title? I know you've never fought in the UFC before." But that's, in boxing, that's unheard of. That would never take place.

• 1:45:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  But in the UFC, if you're a pretty good fighter, and you're doing well, and you win a bunch of championships in other organizations, and all of a sudden, this opportunity arises, we've had guys with their first fight in the UFC fight for the world title.

• 1:46:11Speaker 03

  That is true. I mean, that's what you get when you have, like, a melting pot of things, though, because those guys are, like, well-established in their own personal careers. Maybe wrestling, or kickboxing, or whatever it is.

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  Or Ryzen.

• 1:46:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's not like you're pulling, like, the local kid-

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  100%.

• 1:46:29Speaker 03

  And telling him, "Let's go fight for a world title." I mean-

• 1:46:31Speaker 02

  But they would pull out the local kid and fight a guy who has 10, 15 fights in the UFC. That does happen. That, that happens all the time.

• 1:46:37Speaker 03

  Well, that's what I'm saying, is like,

• 1:46:40Speaker 03

  I, I, I think that the boxers would be more hesitant to take something like that, like you're saying. But the MMA guys are always down to do that kind of stuff.

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  Well, the boxers, though-

• 1:46:49Speaker 03

  It's a different, it's a different culture, I suppose.

• 1:46:51Speaker 02

  It is, but it's also the fact that no one gives a shit who the promoter is in boxing. No, if, if someone's going to watch Gervonta Davis fight, they don't say, "Well, who's promoting this? Hold on. Is this for Bob Arum? Is this for Golden Boy?" Like, no one cares.

• 1:47:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:47:05Speaker 02

  It's just, who are the fighters? Well, the UFC is a very different animal. So if you get a call for the UFC, like, "Oh my god, we're in the big leagues."

• 1:47:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  And that's different.

• 1:47:14Speaker 03

  100%, yeah. They have all sorts of different promotions and different people you can fight for in boxing, but UFC is, is the pinnacle. It's, yeah, if you get the call from the UFC, that's where you want to go. So, there's, there's a whole lot of differences to it. I just think, um, whatever it is, that, yeah, the MMA guys are, are more willing to step in on the short notice and, and put their careers at risk, and put their, you know, opportunities to, to continue fight streaks or whatever at a risk, so that's, that's how I see it. That's what I picked up from those two different things.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's definitely a different culture, right? It's a culture of accepting those risks, and also of probably people that are just they're, they're much more willing to take a chance, it seems.

• 1:48:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. That's why I think, like, that's us a little bit more padded up to it.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  A little bit more wild to be fighting in MMA, anyway.

• 1:48:06Speaker 03

  That's, yeah.

• 1:48:07Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:48:08Speaker 03

  That's, it's a little bit more wild, for sure. And that's, that's a little bit, uh, more of a business, I would say, in, in my opinion.

• 1:48:17Speaker 02

  The boxing.

• 1:48:17Speaker 03

  The boxing is.

• 1:48:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:19Speaker 03

  Which-

• 1:48:19Speaker 02

  Well, you got a lot of, like, very smart people involved in boxing that are, like, managers and trainers, that are, like, really working to build a guy and turn him into a prospect, turn him into a contender-

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  And then turn him into a champion.

• 1:48:30Speaker 03

  And the UFC only have the one organization doing that.

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:48:34Speaker 03

  And they're managing all the weight classes and all the prospects, and they're picking and choosing.

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  Not only that, they schedule fight card, they schedule fights around cards.

• 1:48:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:48:45Speaker 02

  They don't schedule cards around fights, right? So if you, like, say if Canelo Alvarez is fighting someone, it is, whenever Canelo's ready to fight, that's when the card takes place.

• 1:48:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:56Speaker 02

  Right? So Canelo Alvarez wants to fight September 12th. Okay, great. September 12th, let's put together a fight card around Canelo Alvarez.

• 1:49:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:49:03Speaker 02

  With the UFC, it's like, UFC's coming to Salt Lake City, October 3rd. Who's there?

• 1:49:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  Who wants to fight?

• 1:49:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:49:07Speaker 02

  Like, we're gonna have a fight. Who's gonna be on the fight? Who's gonna be on the card? And then you put the card together. So it's a different animal.

• 1:49:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. No, they're, they're different, for sure. I mean, I try to draw wisdom from all, all aspects of everything, so I'm constantly delving into all the different realms, myself.

• 1:49:23Speaker 02

  Do you, uh, read a lot? Are you a guy who, do you, like, read any things on, on psychology, or on warrior tactics? You ever get into, like, Book of Five Rings or any of that shit?

• 1:49:35Speaker 03

  For sure. I'm reading, uh, it's called Hagakari right now, and it's essentially, um, it's a, it's a single individual, Yamamoto,

• 1:49:46Speaker 03

  it's like, Tunishe or something. I forget his name exactly, but, um, he served for, like, the, the reigning leader at the time. His leader passed away. He wanted to commit seppuku because he was of that, that mentality, that warrior mentality, but, um, his leader had, had commanded, like, that no one was allowed to do that. This and that, but he's taken a lot of storylines, inspirations from all these samurai, cause it's going into a time period where the samurai weren't a necessity anymore, and so the ideology, the lifestyle, what it meant to, to live that Bushido lifestyle had changed a different, a little bit, and their purpose was different.

• 1:50:28Speaker 03

  And, uh, my boxing coach gave it to me, actually, when I was kind of in this limbo state of, like, it's essentially saying, "How should a warrior live outside of the fight?" You know, like, what does he need to be doing on a daily basis, and but then it's, it's, I, I like the real-life, uh, like, storyline, because now you're getting a bunch of different perspectives from all these people that were samurai. All were warriors who lived that, who, you know, fought in battle. And now you get to see, like, a lot of different things. Like, someone says, "You should do this," and someone says, "No, don't do that." And to me, I like that because I get to kind of delve through all the mindsets and then apply what works best to me, you know? But, uh, I love, I love reading all that stuff. I've not been so good at staying off the phone and, and

• 1:51:12Speaker 03

  you know, I watch a lot of YouTube, which is, it's always fighting, or some kind of gun channel, or hiking, or camping, or hunting, or spearfishing, or something, but, uh- Yeah, I I'm trying to get way better at that, trying to stay off the screens like I I I wanna be more interactive with the world around me, learning things constantly and so picking up a book and and reading it is along along that set of goals that I have is continuously be doing that.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's benefits to a lot of stuff on YouTube. I think YouTube is not social media and I think I learn a lot on YouTube and I just get it's for me, I like to wind down on YouTube, just watch some ancient history thing or watch a professional pool match or something like that. It's just a wind down time. But it doesn't feel like I'm wasting time, whereas if I'm looking at Instagram or Twitter or whatever, it's it feels like I'm doing something I shouldn't be doing that's not beneficial.

• 1:52:07Speaker 03

  Oh, a hundred percent. That's to me as I'm building up my platform and whatnot, I understand it as a business. And so I understand there's some necessity for me to be into it, producing content, not necessarily taking in content. Uh, but yeah, a hundred percent. It's it's something that has uh affected our culture in in a large way. It's all the the uh, what's it called? Like the short term like media, you know, where you're clicking through it. It's just it's killing our attention spans. It's it's just uh, like, you know, your dopamine is is firing at all times, going crazy.

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  It's just it robs your focus.

• 1:52:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're getting this like, that's where that's where I love the YouTube, but I almost have to recognize that just because I'm watching a spearfishing video doesn't mean I'm getting in the water and going to spearfishing. Cause sometimes I feel like I get my fix a little bit by doing that, but then I have to remind myself it's like uh, life is lived in in your actions and and and your experiences. So sitting and watching the the TV screen, somebody else experienced that. You know, you you get the inside scoop. You gotta kind of be there under the water, watch what's going on, but yeah, you're not actually living it. So I like it. I love I love to to learn from that. Social media, yeah, it's it sucks. It's zapping everybody and uh

• 1:53:26Speaker 02

  It's certainly not a part of the warrior lifestyle, as you're talking about.

• 1:53:29Speaker 03

  Oh, for sure. Cause then like you wanna think about like your your meditative aspects of like how often are you delving deep into your own brain? And just figuring out things about yourself and asking those questions and pushing beyond. And when you got a phone screen stealing all your attention, how are you ever doing that?

• 1:53:46Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, absolutely. You're not. You're not, you know, if you're if you're spending so much time doing that. You're a spearfisher guy, huh? You really like spearfishing?

• 1:53:56Speaker 03

  I like to spearfish. I uh, it's been some time since I've been back in the water. I had a buddy that we used to go all the time and then he moved up to Washington. And uh, I don't know, I

• 1:54:05Speaker 02

  Where were you guys spearfishing?

• 1:54:06Speaker 03

  Uh, we go local like uh, there's a Cronedale Mar beach and then there's a smaller kind of hidden beach that you walk down. And it's got plenty of structure and all sorts of fish out there. Uh, Laguna's got the kelp forest, so I've just been going shore diving and uh going over there, grabbing lobster when it's lobster season, grabbing down to the honey holes and just grabbing them with their hands. So this it's all the shore stuff right now. I haven't been off a boat.

• 1:54:34Speaker 02

  It's uh, for my friends that have been hunting that they say they love it because they say it's like hunting underwater.

• 1:54:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:54:40Speaker 02

  It's not really like fishing. It doesn't, you call it spearfish, but it feels like you're hunting.

• 1:54:44Speaker 03

  It's it's, yeah, it's you're you're in the action, you know, you get to pick and choose which fish you're gonna take, which one to let to let go and uh yeah, you're also, I like it because I like the primitive aspects, like we talked about like a little bit of bow hunting before. I I'm really enthralled with the bow hunting stuff over the rifle hunt because dude, you can sit at like three, four, sometimes guys are shooting them at like a 500 yards with this big old rifle and you're just smacking something. It's like that thing didn't even like ever know you were there. You know, you're just like propped up and there's a place for it, I suppose, but having a bow and have to get up 30 ish yards, give or take, and having to make sure they're not catching your scent and having to to perform the stock. I like the primitive

• 1:55:28Speaker 03

  stuff. I like it. I like something that involves a skill set instead of just like a technological uh prowess.

• 1:55:34Speaker 02

  No, I agree with you, obviously. I I'm a big bow hunter. I don't think there's anything wrong with rifle hunting and it's definitely the best way to acquire meat. If you're just going on a meat hunt and you just wanna get your meat for the next few months, a rifle's the way to go. But if you want a real challenge, there's something that's way more special about a bow hunt. It's more difficult. It requires more practice, requires more of you. Like uh, I went on a pig hunt um about a year or so ago with a friend of mine in California where we had uh had a successful elk hunt and then we went pig hunting. And I hadn't shot a rifle in two years, a year and a half, two years, like not one shot with a rifle.

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  Ace this pig at like 90 yards like it was nothing. Boom, dropped him in his tracks. Like that was so easy.

• 1:56:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:56:23Speaker 02

  And compare, I mean, all you have to do is get the crosshairs on them. Don't flinch. Squeeze the trigger slowly, make sure you're in a good position.

• 1:56:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:56:32Speaker 02

  And know how to shoot a rifle. And once you know how to shoot a rifle, you kind, I mean, I'm not taking thousand yard shots, but

• 1:56:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:56:38Speaker 02

  You know how to shoot a rifle, it's pretty easy. If I was bow hunting, I wouldn't even imagine if I hadn't shot a bow in a year and a half of even thinking about shooting something with a bow.

• 1:56:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:56:48Speaker 02

  Not a chance in hell. I wouldn't even think about it for like months. I would say I need to practice. I need to hit targets all the time. I need to make sure my shot is at, I need to get my technique down. I'd wanna film myself, make sure I'm not doing anything stupid. Like let me look at my form. Why why is my elbow to the right? It should be above. I would, I would never imagine. Rifle's way easier, but the feeling of taking an animal down with a bow is a completely different feeling. It's so much harder to do. It's so much more exciting. And if you fail, it doesn't, you know, I many a hunt where you seven days, nothing happens. Okay, that's just part of the thing.

• 1:57:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:57:25Speaker 02

  But at least, you know, we're out here getting after it and trying and you succeed or you fail, but at least you're in nature. And the experience of it is still really fun, even if you're totally unsuccessful.

• 1:57:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, that's why with the spearfishing stuff, like these freedivers that can hold their breath up to four or five minutes, you know? And they're diving 40, 50, 60, 70 feet. Some of these guys out there in the middle of the blue water and they're going down to shipwrecks or whatever structure is down there and they're shooting these big old fish. It's like, yeah, there's like there has to be a skill set to that. It's something you had to work for to achieve, you know?

• 1:58:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:03Speaker 03

  It's something you had to to build up to. So, yeah, I I love all that stuff. I haven't been like bow hunting. I haven't even been rifle hunting. It's something that I really wanna get into. I like all that outdoor stuff.

• 1:58:15Speaker 02

  We can help you. We can help you get into that. Yeah, definitely. I'll connect you with some people.

• 1:58:19Speaker 03

  No, I I love all that. You know, I like to have a backpack. I just did uh, Mount Whitney last year in August and uh I I just love being out there in nature. So, you know, being able to engage in it that way too is is like you said, the excitement, the the buildup, the work you have to put into it, the knowledge you have to acquire, the people you have to bump into. Um

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  The meals are a lot different too. When you eat a meal that you prepared yourself, that you've went and hunted, it's just a completely different feeling.

• 1:58:46Speaker 03

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  And you're living in California now and California has a giant pig population. There's a lot of pig hunting to be had in California, pretty much all year round. Yeah.

• 1:58:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, cause they're invasive species. Like that's one that I I'll get in the helicopter with the rifle and just take those guys out because I know they're just destroying animal like, you know, like habitat and eating all the food and and destroying the geography of most places they are. So

• 1:59:12Speaker 02

  Millions of them here in Texas, literally millions.

• 1:59:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, and they they breed like no other too, you know, they just multiply.

• 1:59:18Speaker 02

  Three times a year, they have litter sometimes.

• 1:59:20Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:59:20Speaker 02

  At least twice a year. Um, I have uh some friends mine and I, we have a hunting lease out here and as you're walking through like the woods, you hear them, they sound like demons.

• 1:59:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:35Speaker 02

  You hear them like fighting with each other in the bushes and shit. You're like, what the fuck am I getting into?

• 1:59:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:59:39Speaker 02

  They sound like monsters, man, and they're everywhere.

• 1:59:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:43Speaker 02

  Like you go to every one of these ranches out here is infested with pigs.

• 1:59:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're just destroying.

• 1:59:49Speaker 02

  They have to hunt them. They bring in people to hunt them. A friend of mine has a huge ranch in uh, uh, out near uh Fort Worth.

• 1:59:55Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 1:59:55Speaker 02

  And he brought in a bunch of Navy SEALs to kill pigs and they set it up like an operation. They literally decided to use it for training.

• 2:00:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:03Speaker 02

  And so they, you know, and you can blow them up with like thermite. You could do all kinds of, not thermite. What's that shit that they use? Tannerite. Tannerite, that's it. Thank you.

• 2:00:12Speaker 03

  I've seen that video.

• 2:00:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, it's crazy. It's ridiculous. Yeah, but they can, you can basically do whatever you want to them because they they they're just encouraging people. They're saying, listen, other than like declaring war on the pigs and bringing in the military and literally going through every state and trying to kill them. Like we've got an economic war where these pigs are destroying people's crops.

• 2:00:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:00:37Speaker 02

  I mean, literally billions of dollars worth of damage every year they're doing to these farms.

• 2:00:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:42Speaker 02

  And they just keep, there's more of them every year, more of them every year. They're not gonna stop fucking. They're just gonna keep reproducing. Just gonna keep reproducing. And it's, you know, really been a few hundred years since they've been introduced to this country and

• 2:00:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:57Speaker 02

  Boy, they're in every state now.

• 2:00:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, and what are you gonna do? Just let them continue to roam?

• 2:01:02Speaker 02

  Well, if they're in every state, they like New York State and places like that, they have wild pigs. How many states have a wild pig population? Let's put that into perplexity and see what they say. Our AI sponsor. I I'm a guess. Let me say 30. I say 30 states have a wild pig population. That's my guess. 30 out of 50. Am I close? Yep. How many?

• 2:01:28Speaker 02

  Thirty-five. Uh, figure first to states with documented feral swine presence. I like that term. Feral swine presence. Does not necessarily mean that every one of these states has a large self-sustaining population. Thirty-five states.

• 2:01:44Speaker 02

  Population established numbers could be lower. Some states have only have occasional sightings, small localized groups. Well, it really depends on where they have farms. States with farms have the real problem. In the southwest, especially Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, and South Carolina. Yeah. Wild.

• 2:02:06Speaker 02

  It's, it's such a crazy animal too, because they're, you know, they're so smart. They're so smart and they're very durable.

• 2:02:14Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, some of them get gigantic, like thousand pounds, right? I mean, you've seen them.

• 2:02:19Speaker 02

  Not really. See, I used to think that too. Those are not really the wild pigs. What those are is domestic pigs that got loose. And you know, the thing about domestic pigs, when they get loose, they kind of become wild. Their, their nose lengthens, their, their, their fur gets like thicker and bushier and their, their talons or their, their tusks rather actually grow. Which is nuts. Like they actually metamorphosis.

• 2:02:44Speaker 03

  Well, that's, I mean, that's what like a, a feral pig is, right?

• 2:02:46Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:02:47Speaker 03

  Was a domesticated animal that became wild.

• 2:02:49Speaker 02

  The opposite. It was a wild animal that they took and domesticated, but then when you let them loose in the wild, then they become wild again.

• 2:02:56Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:02:56Speaker 02

  That's just weird. It's like they originally were wild animals.

• 2:03:00Speaker 03

  It's such a like crazy transformation. You know, all covered in hair, big tusks and stuff, and then like the pigs you see in the farm, like.

• 2:03:07Speaker 02

  Same animal.

• 2:03:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:09Speaker 02

  What's nuts is it happens quick. Apparently this, the metamorphosis starts to take place. Look this up. See how long it takes before pigs start transforming? I think it's like six weeks or something crazy. Like it starts to begin.

• 2:03:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:21Speaker 02

  Or six weeks where they have to feed themselves, where they have to forage for themselves. They're like, alright, I guess I'm wild.

• 2:03:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:27Speaker 02

  And then they just.

• 2:03:28Speaker 03

  Start the transformation, yeah.

• 2:03:30Speaker 02

  It's, it's a very weird animal. I don't know of any other animal that, well, we'll ask perplexity that. I don't know if there's any other animal that does that. Domestic pig become feral in behavior within weeks to months of escaping. Becoming wary of people nocturnal, mobile, and able to forage and survive without care, but it does not literally turn to a wild boar in one lifetime. But it does have physical, um, changes. What is the physical change?

• 2:03:59Speaker 02

  Uh. Radically difference goal is overstated. Adult pigs can become tougher, leaner, hairier, and more elusive as conditions change. But major inherited traits become more common when the animals survive and breed, pass on advantageous variants over successive litters. Evidence on feralization emphasizes that these changes are shaped by both environments and multi-generational selection. Not an instant biological reversal. Not instant, but they do physically change. I don't think this is totally accurate, but if you see the biggest pig that they ever shot that was a wild pig, I think it's called Hogzilla. Have you ever seen that picture?

• 2:04:40Speaker 03

  I think so, yeah.

• 2:04:41Speaker 02

  It looks like a domestic pig. It looks like someone was feeding that thing a lot and then it got out and became a wild pig.

• 2:04:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  I don't know how big that was. There's a photo of it, but the, it's one of those perspective shots where the guy's like behind it.

• 2:04:55Speaker 03

  Stand all far behind it.

• 2:04:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. Make it look 10 times larger.

• 2:04:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. It, but it looks cra- see, there's one of them where one of them is hanging from a tractor. And I don't give a fuck how close you are to that thing. That thing's giant.

• 2:05:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:05:09Speaker 02

  Like, how big is Hogzilla?

• 2:05:11Speaker 03

  That's like some of the gators or the crocodiles, I mean, that they're finding in like Africa and stuff.

• 2:05:17Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:05:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, the pictures sit next to those things and they're like twenty plus feet long, you know, like ridiculous.

• 2:05:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, crocodiles get big. I think the biggest ones they've gotten are like close to 20.

• 2:05:28Speaker 03

  See, that's the one thing about spearfishing is you, they're, you know, the sharks are there, you know?

• 2:05:33Speaker 02

  Do you ever see them?

• 2:05:34Speaker 03

  I have not seen, I've seen leopard sharks, but that, that's nothing crazy.

• 2:05:39Speaker 02

  You never saw a great white?

• 2:05:39Speaker 03

  I've never seen a great white.

• 2:05:40Speaker 02

  If you do, would that be the last time you go spearfishing?

• 2:05:44Speaker 03

  I want to say no, but I don't know. I'll have to get there first.

• 2:05:47Speaker 02

  Hit one on the nose.

• 2:05:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. If it's like getting crazy, it's probably like, alright, I'm, I'm cool on that. But they, they have, uh, they have all sorts of different things, like ocean guardian.

• 2:05:58Speaker 02

  Okay, that guy's definitely behind that thing, but that fucker looks like he's got tusks.

• 2:06:02Speaker 03

  Well, look at that one to the left, the giant 36 stone.

• 2:06:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:06Speaker 03

  Oh, you have that one too.

• 2:06:07Speaker 04

  They said this one was maybe 1,200 pounds. It was originally thought of to be a hoax. There's a documentary about it. It's back in 2004 and five though.

• 2:06:16Speaker 02

  Hmm. What's that one on the upper left?

• 2:06:20Speaker 02

  That dude's resting his arm. Is that a real picture?

• 2:06:23Speaker 03

  Well, it's like a little kid though.

• 2:06:24Speaker 02

  The upper, but the upper left, the kid.

• 2:06:26Speaker 04

  Way too close for that guy.

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, that one's closer than the guy. The guy's behind it, but that kid.

• 2:06:31Speaker 04

  No, these names are on it.

• 2:06:32Speaker 02

  Oh, he's not resting his arms on it. He's resting his arms. Yeah, it is the same. That's a fat fucker though. Look at the size of that thing. That looks more like a domestic pig though. Like that one right there. That's a good example. Go back up a little so I could ma- make it small. Yeah. Look at his snout. Ah, it's actually kind of long.

• 2:06:50Speaker 04

  They're also still behind it too.

• 2:06:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:53Speaker 04

  Hard to tell how far, but.

• 2:06:54Speaker 02

  Why do people do that? It's big.

• 2:06:56Speaker 04

  Make it look cool, man.

• 2:06:57Speaker 02

  I know, but it's big. I like how that one says 36 stone. That must be an, an English, yeah, it's the mirror. That's crazy. That's a big pig, but it's not. Like, what is the biggest reported wild pig that was shot in Texas? Let's ask that. I think that's a porno. Turn that off.

• 2:07:19Speaker 04

  It's on IMDb.

• 2:07:21Speaker 02

  The other white meat bites back.

• 2:07:23Speaker 04

  Shot in Texas?

• 2:07:24Speaker 02

  Yes. What is the biggest wild hog that was shot in Texas? Let's guess.

• 2:07:32Speaker 02

  I'm gonna guess like 500 pounds.

• 2:07:37Speaker 02

  That's my guess.

• 2:07:42Speaker 02

  That's just a guess though.

• 2:07:45Speaker 02

  No official, largest ever shot, most credible, 790 pound boar. Holy shit. Captured, not shot. Near Deleon in Comanche County. January 2015. Weight on certified mill scales. That's fucking crazy big. 790 is nuts. That's so big. Oh. Can you imagine millions of 790 pound wild pigs running through this country?

• 2:08:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. That would, uh, not be.

• 2:08:16Speaker 02

  Not ideal.

• 2:08:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:18Speaker 02

  Um, so, never one, never been hunting?

• 2:08:21Speaker 03

  I've shot some birds with a pellet gun or something. That's about it.

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  But you want to?

• 2:08:27Speaker 03

  I would love to, yeah.

• 2:08:28Speaker 02

  What, what would you want to go hunting for? Do you have a thing in your mind that you think would be?

• 2:08:31Speaker 03

  Um, I think something like a, like a deer is probably like a good starting, starting point.

• 2:08:36Speaker 02

  Do you know how to shoot a bow? Or would you want to use a rifle?

• 2:08:39Speaker 03

  I haven't shot compound too often. I shoot a recurve. Um, it's definitely not something I'm, uh, super practiced with, but I'm pretty good with it. I went to archery competition pretty recently and did pretty good with it.

• 2:08:50Speaker 02

  Did you really? With a compound bow?

• 2:08:52Speaker 03

  With a recurve bow.

• 2:08:53Speaker 02

  A recurve bow. Um, don't hunt with that.

• 2:08:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:56Speaker 02

  It's too risky. You, you're not gonna.

• 2:08:58Speaker 03

  That would be.

• 2:08:58Speaker 02

  You gotta get real good.

• 2:08:59Speaker 03

  You'd have to, yeah. A lot of practice, a lot of hunts, and a lot of experience.

• 2:09:04Speaker 02

  How far are you from San Diego?

• 2:09:07Speaker 03

  Hour, two hours if there's traffic.

• 2:09:09Speaker 02

  There's a really good archery shop in San Diego. I think it's Performance Archery. Is that the name of the place? Um, but it's one of the best shops in the country.

• 2:09:18Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:09:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you want to get a compound bow and want to get someone to, um, really, uh, make sure that it's sized correctly, that the draw length is correct and everything like that. Yeah, Performance Archery.

• 2:09:33Speaker 02

  Why are you showing me a map? Yeah, just go back to the. Yeah, it's in, I've been there before with, uh, John Dudley. It's a great place, like really elite, 4.6 stars on Google.

• 2:09:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:09:46Speaker 02

  It's, it's a, you want to go to a really good place, so they make sure they set you up correct. Like, that's a big thing with bows. It's like, um, you know, I couldn't shoot John Jones' bow, you know? He's really tall. I'm short. It was, the length would be different. And my, where my peep sight would be different. It has to all be measured out to your size and everyone's different, so it's.

• 2:10:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10:09Speaker 02

  You'd have to really make sure that your bow is set up for you correctly. And it's just like martial arts in that you want to learn correctly first. You don't want to unlearn it and try to learn something the right way, because you're always going to fall back on the way you got comfortable with doing it the first time.

• 2:10:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:10:24Speaker 02

  So, that's a good thing to do.

• 2:10:26Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 2:10:26Speaker 02

  You set it up?

• 2:10:27Speaker 03

  I've, uh, I mean, I've shot a compound bow here or there, but I like all that stuff. I'm really, like I said, I'm, I'm, uh, big into continuing to learn lots of different skills, especially in that realm and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm all about it.

• 2:10:43Speaker 02

  Do you think, do you think of that as a way to like just advance your, your mental function in, just in all of life that will help your fighting? Like the more different things you learn, the more different things you do, that you can like take things from that and apply it to fighting?

• 2:11:00Speaker 03

  Um.

• 2:11:01Speaker 02

  Or do you just do it because you enjoy it?

• 2:11:04Speaker 03

  I have to say, I do it because I enjoy it. Um, it's probably not directly related to fighting, but more of the um self reliance and the self perseverance. Like to me, like I'm like at home making my own like Kaidex holsters and my leather holsters and doing all that kind of stuff is a good start. My I have this old truck that I want to tear apart and and learn how to work on it from the ground up. Um, being able to hunt and provide like just I'm always thinking like when shit hits the fan, I better be ready for it, you know? And so being a martial artist, being a warrior encompasses a lot of aspects, you know? Hand to hand combat is only one of those things. There's a lot of different aspects to uh self self perseverance.

• 2:11:46Speaker 03

  So I think about it a little bit that way. Um, I do it because it's fun and it's it's just exciting to learn a new skill and then have a an end product, something that you made yourself.

• 2:11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's it's always a good idea to be self reliant. And also, like, if you have a garden, that's another great thing. Like, you have a place where you can grow your own food.

• 2:12:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:12:08Speaker 02

  So you're not getting any pesticides or herbicides or bullshit on your food.

• 2:12:12Speaker 03

  Hundred percent. I mean, the the end goal for me is to have probably would not be the only property because my wife just loves Southern California so much, but uh Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, go get a couple acres up there. Move the family, maybe some close friends and just have have our own little self reliant thing up there with some some crop, some wildlife, the ability to hunt up there on our land. A lot of the stuff I'm seeing out there, they have stocked lakes and and the rivers have fish as well. So something like that is.

• 2:12:44Speaker 02

  You're really thinking about a possible catastrophe.

• 2:12:48Speaker 03

  It's always on my mind. Nah, I just, I want to get away from the hustle and bustle of everything. Just be out there in nature is really kind of the the hopes for that and.

• 2:12:57Speaker 02

  Are you stuck in California because of your wife and what you do outside of MMA? Or have you ever thought about moving to a different place to train?

• 2:13:06Speaker 03

  Uh, well, training is kind of the the main thing that keeps me there, honestly.

• 2:13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:11Speaker 03

  My my team is there, all my coaches are there. Of course, I I can bounce around and.

• 2:13:15Speaker 02

  What gym are you out of now?

• 2:13:17Speaker 03

  I'm all over the place. I train at the Den Training Center and you're Lindai, I train at CSW. Fullerton with Eric Paulson and then.

• 2:13:24Speaker 02

  I love Eric.

• 2:13:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's.

• 2:13:25Speaker 02

  Didn't your dad train with Eric?

• 2:13:28Speaker 03

  He did. That's how I got over there in the first place because Ben was Ben was running the fight practice at CSW then.

• 2:13:34Speaker 02

  Bro, Eric's an OG.

• 2:13:36Speaker 03

  He's.

• 2:13:36Speaker 02

  He's an OG dude.

• 2:13:38Speaker 03

  He's a, he's such a cool guy.

• 2:13:40Speaker 02

  Eric Paulson was, I remember back in the day when he had like a crazy ponytail. He in the days where you could grab hair.

• 2:13:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, that's why that's why I cut it off. I think it was Sean Shurkey, right? He was fighting him bare knuckle and homie kept grabbing his ponytail and and holding him there. And that's the only reason why. And I think right after that fight, he went and chopped it off and uh had short hair from that point.

• 2:14:02Speaker 02

  I know it's nice to good be good looking with long flowy locks, but that shit is uh especially back in those days when you when you could grab hair. You remember Hoist Gracie versus Kimo? Hoist had a fucking handful of hair when he was on the top and just blasted him.

• 2:14:17Speaker 03

  That's, I mean, to me, cut the hair, man. Cut it or braid it.

• 2:14:21Speaker 02

  Especially if it's the old UFC days where you could actually grab hair.

• 2:14:25Speaker 03

  Grab it, yeah.

• 2:14:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, people complain all the time about guys grabbing their shorts and it does happen all the time. Grab guys grab shorts. I'm always like, why are you wearing shorts?

• 2:14:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:14:36Speaker 02

  I don't know if you wear shorts. Do you wear spandex? You wear shorts?

• 2:14:39Speaker 03

  Spandex, yeah.

• 2:14:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why are you wearing shorts? Why are you wearing anything someone can grab?

• 2:14:43Speaker 03

  And especially like everybody likes the loose, like like the high slate cut shorts nowadays. So I mean, it's more to grab on to, yeah.

• 2:14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just don't understand it. Here it is. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. Oh, yeah, man. This is bare knuckle, head butts.

• 2:14:57Speaker 03

  Hey, then you could kick him in the nuts and all that stuff back then.

• 2:14:59Speaker 02

  Bro, wrestlers were a fucking nightmare when you could headbutt. If you go go back and remember like the Mark Coleman days, he would get in your guard and headbutt the shit out of you.

• 2:15:11Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah. And what are you, how are you getting off of the off your back against a high level wrestler like that?

• 2:15:16Speaker 02

  I know, it's crazy.

• 2:15:17Speaker 04

  Grabbing his hair like it's a wrist lock.

• 2:15:19Speaker 02

  I know, it's crazy.

• 2:15:20Speaker 03

  He had his hair and then uh I don't know if Eric escapes or if the time goes out, but Eric ends up finishing him.

• 2:15:26Speaker 02

  God, he got a crazy cut here.

• 2:15:28Speaker 04

  What is this? A floor time count? You had to get up if you're on the ground for too long?

• 2:15:32Speaker 02

  Is that what it is? That's WSCC. That's crazy. I wonder it's like how much time. Oh, it's counting down.

• 2:15:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I want to see what happens if it gets up here. It's about to.

• 2:15:41Speaker 02

  Right. Do they stand them up?

• 2:15:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:15:45Speaker 02

  Wow, that's crazy.

• 2:15:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, but Eric Paulson is such a legend of the game.

• 2:15:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, he is.

• 2:15:52Speaker 03

  His his, there's not a day that I go in there and learn submission flows from him that I'm not just like blown away.

• 2:15:59Speaker 02

  That's crazy. I forgot they did that.

• 2:16:02Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 2:16:03Speaker 02

  Well, I think back then in the early days of fighting, there was a lot of promoters that were trying a bunch of different tactics to try to make the fights more interesting.

• 2:16:11Speaker 03

  Right. That would be the only reason. Like, they don't want you to sit and lay there anymore. Get up and start throwing fists again.

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  I hate stand ups. I hate them. I hate them with all my heart. I don't think if in a five minute round, you should ever be stood up.

• 2:16:25Speaker 03

  There's a, there's a lot that can go on there. I mean, especially if you're holding position, you're regaining like your your breath a little bit. You're setting up a pass or something. You know, it doesn't always look apparent to the crowd or to the ref.

• 2:16:35Speaker 02

  Even if you could hold them down, like, who cares? You could hold a guy up against the cage, right? Okay, and all you have to do is like land a few knees and a few punches occasionally and they'll let you stay in that position.

• 2:16:46Speaker 03

  I feel like they're breaking that up even more and more.

• 2:16:48Speaker 02

  I don't think you should break up anything. I think it should be reserved for fouls. I think if someone commits a foul, then you stand them up and then you assess whether or not someone gets a point taken away or whether or not that person needs time. But if if it's a place where you don't want to be and the guy's putting you in a place where you don't want to be, he's winning that exchange.

• 2:17:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:17:07Speaker 02

  If a guy can hold you down and you can't get up, if you don't like it and you can't get up, then he's winning.

• 2:17:11Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah.

• 2:17:13Speaker 02

  The we lose as an audience, the audience loses.

• 2:17:15Speaker 04

  Ten minute limit for ground time.

• 2:17:18Speaker 02

  What fight was this? This is WCC?

• 2:17:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:17:20Speaker 02

  What was it called? World Combat Championships? Is that the one where Henzo? Yes. Henzo Gracie fought Ben Spikers. Do you remember that one? Oh, dude, this is one of the reasons why elbows to the back of the head are illegal.

• 2:17:37Speaker 02

  Because Henzo, this guy was calling Henzo, there's you, dog. Look at that.

• 2:17:42Speaker 03

  Look at that guy.

• 2:17:43Speaker 02

  Um, Henzo uh was in his hotel room and this guy was calling him every fucking ten minutes, like to try to wake him up. And Henzo had to take the phone and shove it in a drawer. Like, he was fucking with him constantly and Henzo got his back and elbowed the fucking shit out of him from rear mount.

• 2:18:07Speaker 02

  So this isn't the same fight.

• 2:18:09Speaker 04

  I think it is. Yeah, right here.

• 2:18:11Speaker 02

  Oh, here it is. This, that's it. So this Henzo gets his back and here it is. Look at these elbows, dude. Just ferocious elbows.

• 2:18:23Speaker 02

  So this dude was a judo champion.

• 2:18:25Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, why would you wear a gi against?

• 2:18:27Speaker 02

  Against a guy like Henzo and Henzo doesn't have a gi on. And then Henzo steps off and then gets on his neck.

• 2:18:33Speaker 03

  Oh, shit.

• 2:18:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Ow, that was crossing the line. After he just elbowed the shit out of him.

• 2:18:39Speaker 03

  See, you know what's funny is like the twelve to six rule, everybody uh fantasizes about like how how much better that is. And sure, you got some cutting, but your your force that you can deliver in my perspective, straight down with an elbow like that is so much more tremendous than you doing this.

• 2:18:56Speaker 02

  Yes. This was only, you know why it was outlawed, right?

• 2:18:59Speaker 03

  Why?

• 2:19:01Speaker 02

  Big John McCarthy has got a great story about this. When the ESPN people or the Athletic Commission people, rather, were first deciding whether or not they were going to sanction MMA, they had seen these ESPN karate breaking demonstrations at like two in the morning. These fucking guys, yeah, and they break a bunch of bricks and they're like, you have to outlaw that. That should be illegal. People could die. That's literally what they thought was the most powerful strike was the twelve to six elbow.

• 2:19:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  So you couldn't even do a twelve to six elbow standing, which is crazy. You couldn't tomahawk. So you couldn't come down with a tomahawk twelve six.

• 2:19:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19:38Speaker 02

  It had to be at a slight angle. It had to be some kind of angle, which is the fucking dumbest thing ever.

• 2:19:44Speaker 03

  Chop him in half.

• 2:19:45Speaker 02

  This by far across, like it's rotating your shoulders to do it like a punch. It's the most power.

• 2:19:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you might get more cutting and.

• 2:19:53Speaker 02

  It's available if a guy's doing this. You know, if a guy's covering up like that and he goes straight down, it's a good. But to eliminate it as an option, the only reason why was just.

• 2:20:02Speaker 04

  So the WCC had two different brackets, grapplers bracket, strikers bracket. Grapplers could be on the ground for up to ten minutes. Strikers only had two minutes. And submissions were illegal.

• 2:20:14Speaker 02

  What? In a strikers fight?

• 2:20:16Speaker 04

  So it said, and then the idea was the winner of both brackets would fight at the end.

• 2:20:21Speaker 02

  Oh, that's so crazy.

• 2:20:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, it only made it that one tournament.

• 2:20:24Speaker 02

  That's so crazy. What year was that?

• 2:20:26Speaker 04

  Uh, ninety five, four or five, ninety five maybe.

• 2:20:30Speaker 02

  Okay, so this is right after the UFC burst onto the scene. That's uh UFC was ninety three.

• 2:20:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, it just says they were trying to be different than the UFC with different rules.

• 2:20:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:39Speaker 03

  They're doing something like that again where it's like striking only MMA where I don't know, if you go back to the ground, they stand you back up or something.

• 2:20:46Speaker 02

  Where's this?

• 2:20:47Speaker 03

  I don't know. I saw it on Instagram.

• 2:20:48Speaker 02

  I mean, what is One FC is doing at the right way where they just have striking fights?

• 2:20:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:52Speaker 02

  They have MMA fights and striking fights.

• 2:20:54Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:20:55Speaker 02

  Dude, I've been trying to talk Dana into doing that for years, you know, because I know they got into zoo for boxing, which is great. You know, I'm like. Why not, like, when people boo when things go to the ground, how about have striking fights? Just how, but in his mind, kickboxing in America has a stink on it. From the PKA karate days, you know, which just wasn't that good. They weren't allowed to leg kick, it was all above the waist.

• 2:21:21Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:21:21Speaker 02

  And, you know, there was great fighters back then, like Rick Rufus and a few guys that were like really elite. But for the most part, the skill level wasn't that high and people never really got into PKA karate. They never really got into kick, it never really became the kind of success that boxing was. And so I think in his mind, that's how people look at kickboxing.

• 2:21:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:21:40Speaker 02

  I think it's the most, it has the most possibility in terms of like a sport that is not being taken advantage of. Like that it has the most potential, by far.

• 2:21:51Speaker 03

  I mean, like you say, you look at the One Championship guys that are over there, kickboxing Muay Thai and they're, they're even doing hybrid fights for that DJ versus Rattan.

• 2:21:59Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 2:22:00Speaker 03

  They're switching it up all crazy and, I don't know, I mean, that's getting pretty good traction over there, so.

• 2:22:05Speaker 02

  It is. I, I, I heard, you know, they, they have some difficulties and I hope they do really well. The world needs more organizations, the MMA world needs a bunch of options.

• 2:22:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:22:18Speaker 02

  And you know this PFL merger where PFL has merged with, um, what is this?

• 2:22:23Speaker 03

  MVP.

• 2:22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, Jake Paul's production company, MVP, yeah. That's great. We need more of that. Netflix is involved, fantastic. You need more. You need more, more options, more fights. And it's just gonna make more MMA fans.

• 2:22:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:22:38Speaker 02

  Just for me, when you see a guy like that cat that I was telling you about, Magomedov, who fought for PFL, like, more people need to know about these guys. Like, there's so many guys out there that are fucking killers, man.

• 2:22:50Speaker 03

  No, the town pool is so deep, like, outside of the UFC, it's extremely deep. You got people coming out of Russia, these Brazilians, like, people all over the world that nobody's ever heard of just because they haven't been on that big stage quite yet, so.

• 2:23:05Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:23:05Speaker 03

  I think, uh, I think it would be really cool that we did like a champion versus champion kind of fights.

• 2:23:11Speaker 02

  It's never gonna happen.

• 2:23:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:23:12Speaker 02

  The UFC would never do that. Why would, what if their guys win? Fuck you. It's no, the, the benefit of it for the UFC is like, it's so outweighed by the negatives.

• 2:23:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:23:23Speaker 02

  Especially since they're number one.

• 2:23:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:23:25Speaker 02

  And they're not number one like a little bit, you know? Like, for the casual, MMA is UFC. You know, it's like Q-tips. It's not a cotton swab, it's a fucking Q-tip.

• 2:23:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, from a business perspective, I understand it. I think as a fighter, it would be cool to challenge yourself, once you, once you get to that pinnacle, if you have title defenses and you're kind of taking everybody out, it's like, hey, I really want to be the best in the world. Let me fight all the top guys in the world, so. It may never happen, but.

• 2:23:52Speaker 02

  The only way it could happen, if something like MVP, um, got to a level of prominence in the public eye, where they developed a roster of champions that was equal to the UFC. Then it would make sense. Then no one's losing.

• 2:24:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, because then it brings in all the crowds from everywhere, everybody gets.

• 2:24:10Speaker 02

  And then you do a co-promotion for like a gigantic super fight, like, you know, the UFC's version of Floyd Mayweather versus Manny Pacquiao.

• 2:24:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:24:19Speaker 02

  You know, you have something where these guys are so huge, it's just like, let's make this happen, everyone's gonna get rich, let's go.

• 2:24:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, for sure. It has to be something of that caliber. Like, it has to be Conor McGregor level champion where that, you know, people are coming from all over, anywhere to sign on, to buy the fight at home or to show up in person. And I think you'd have to have two level, two guys of that level to bring some of that traction to it.

• 2:24:46Speaker 02

  Do you think Conor fights again?

• 2:24:48Speaker 03

  Um, I don't know, it sounds like he, it sounds like he's going to.

• 2:24:53Speaker 02

  I think he does.

• 2:24:54Speaker 03

  I think he does, the one more and then he's done with it, I hope, you know? It just, that's what like you say, guys stay in it too long, it's like, and some of these guys, that's all they know. It's the only thing they've ever found success in or found the ability to, to put food on the table or provide for their families. And so like, what else do they know? They, they gave everything to fighting.

• 2:25:14Speaker 02

  Well, with Conor, it's not that, though.

• 2:25:15Speaker 03

  But that's not Conor, he's.

• 2:25:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:18Speaker 03

  He went from such a high place to like, doing what he's doing now in the fighting world, it's just like, why even step in and do that anymore?

• 2:25:25Speaker 02

  I think it's just, because he still can for a little bit more time. I mean, he's 37, 38 now? Realistically, he's got two years left, maybe, you know? If everything, if you really take care of yourself and we both know, he's partied a little bit, done a little bit of partying.

• 2:25:43Speaker 03

  He's gonna get back to that level of training and like mindset to it, though.

• 2:25:46Speaker 02

  You know, it's very difficult to know because he was capable of doing it at one point in his life. And it doesn't mean that he can never do that again just because he's rich. And I think you could underestimate a man's character and say that he can't ever reach those heights again. A guy like Conor is a special guy. A special, it takes a special type of person to put on a performance like he did against Eddie Alvarez. Like, that was, he was in the fucking matrix, man.

• 2:26:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:26:14Speaker 02

  To be there live when he was doing that, I was like, good lord. That was special.

• 2:26:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's pulling and Eddie's like, skinning his nose, blah, blah, and coming back with it.

• 2:26:23Speaker 02

  Countering instantaneous with perfect precision.

• 2:26:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:26Speaker 02

  He was on fire. And if he can reach that height, as long as his body holds up, but here's the, the problem is, both of his ACLs been torn, both of his meniscus has been blown out. You know, now with this, the crazy one with that crazy jumping roundhouse kick, like, who knows, man?

• 2:26:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:26:44Speaker 02

  Who knows what he could still do?

• 2:26:45Speaker 03

  There's, I will never say never. It's not that he couldn't do it.

• 2:26:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:26:48Speaker 03

  It's just that, will he do it? Will he put that time and effort to, to recollect and to be of that zen, of that Bushido like he used to be? Because like, the way he used to talk and be philosophical and stoic about training, the way he explained it and delved into it, that's what, that's what drew people to Conor before anything. The way he talked about the warrior lifestyle and, and he didn't care about anything else and, and he lost his mind to it. Those are the things that intrigue the people, this real, true warrior persona. And that, that was the biggest question with his last one. Everybody's like, oh, do you think Conor's gonna do it? Do you think Conor? And it was the same answer. Do I think he can do it? For sure.

• 2:27:28Speaker 03

  But the problem with that is Conor's so good at talking, that he could convince you that he's doing, he can do anything, you know? So, I'm like, I'm not there in his camp, I'm not seeing what he's doing behind the scenes. I really can't, I really can't make that guess, honestly.

• 2:27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, and much like you, I want to believe. You know, you hear him talk, you're like, I want to believe, I want to see him pull it off.

• 2:27:50Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 2:27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, we all did, you know, it's, he was a very important part of fighting. He was a, a really, um, a special person that came along and brought a lot of attention to the sport that would not, it wouldn't have been the same without him. That whole era of time from 10 years ago or whatever it was, when he really burst, more than that, but I think he won his, what year would he win his first title? When was against Jose Aldo? What year was that?

• 2:28:22Speaker 03

  End of 2015, it was December 2015.

• 2:28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so 11 years ago, really, when he became Conor. You know, that one punch knockout of Jose Aldo was really when he became that guy. I mean, he was huge before that, but that was the one. And then, of course, the Eddie Alvarez fight was another one. I mean, it's 10 years, man, that's a long time.

• 2:28:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:28:44Speaker 02

  A lot of booze, a lot of partying, a lot of fucking off, you know?

• 2:28:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of luxury, you know, not waking up, that's.

• 2:28:51Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:28:52Speaker 03

  It's hard to, hard to go running when you're sleeping and stuff.

• 2:28:54Speaker 02

  Also, the difference, as you said before, between 45 and, you know, and going all the way up, now he wants to fight at 70, you know?

• 2:29:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, and he's also, that's a weight class of killers right there. You talk about Carlos Prates and even this, that, I'm like.

• 2:29:08Speaker 02

  Morales, bro.

• 2:29:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, Morales.

• 2:29:10Speaker 02

  That guy's giant.

• 2:29:11Speaker 03

  Those guys are all huge.

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  Huge.

• 2:29:13Speaker 03

  Even Ian Gary, you saw him sparring Conor, and he's far bigger than Conor is. Conor's not, Conor's not that ginormous of a guy, from my understanding. He gets like, pretty like thick, but he's not really like that, that big of an individual.

• 2:29:27Speaker 02

  No, 55 is really probably as heavy as he should be fighting at, realistically, when you think about those guys.

• 2:29:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, but then is he gonna cut the weight to do that, like?

• 2:29:35Speaker 02

  It's hard.

• 2:29:36Speaker 03

  Is he gonna do all that stuff?

• 2:29:37Speaker 02

  Well, if he doesn't want to do that, he really probably shouldn't be fighting.

• 2:29:40Speaker 03

  I mean, he, the only thing with that is that he can kind of pick who it is he's fighting to an extent. And so, he can get away with the weight class thing a little bit.

• 2:29:49Speaker 02

  He can. He can do whatever the fuck he wants. But, you know, if I was in his, well, it's, it's also at his age, should he even be cutting that kind of weight anymore? Maybe just pick, the, the real fight is 170 with Michael Chandler. Like, have that fight. You want to have one more fight and go out, you know?

• 2:30:05Speaker 03

  That would be beautiful for him, yeah.

• 2:30:06Speaker 02

  Because Max is a tough, it's a tough matchup for him. It's tough. If he doesn't get Max out of there in the first two rounds, then good luck with that. Like, Max is gonna, I mean, Max's whole strategy goes, we're gonna drown him.

• 2:30:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:18Speaker 02

  That's like, that's what his thoughts were.

• 2:30:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, and he, yeah, that's a tough one. Max is, uh, as tough as they come and, and he's fighting the top of the top consistently, so.

• 2:30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:31Speaker 03

  He's only getting better, he's only getting more experienced. I think Michael Chandler would be.

• 2:30:36Speaker 03

  Great regardless, I think it draws the crowd, I think it brings the energy to it. I think that's a good skill level.

• 2:30:41Speaker 02

  They already went through the whole Ultimate Fighter thing together and talked all the shit to each other. It's like, it's crazy that Chandler sat in the shell for like two years waiting for that fight. And then finally he's like, alright, I guess it's not happening.

• 2:30:53Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, and.

• 2:30:54Speaker 02

  He got fucked.

• 2:30:56Speaker 03

  He did. And Chandler to me is like, he's very physically tough, I just, you know, I don't think he is as skillful as Max or some of these other guys, so I think that's a great fight for Connor. I think that's a good one for him to come back on.

• 2:31:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean Chandler's a wild dog.

• 2:31:13Speaker 03

  He is a wild dog, but he relies on that too much is what I've seen, it's like he comes out all crazy. And it's just like, dude, like, that's the same thing, start with a jab, start, oh, and it's, who am I to say it quite yet, you know, he's, he's there doing his thing, but from my perspective, you know, there's needs to be a little bit more calculation there.

• 2:31:30Speaker 02

  Well, it's not gonna happen at this stage of his career, but yeah, if you go back and watch his Eddie Alvarez fights, back when he was fighting in Bellator.

• 2:31:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was, that's like a war back and forth, you know, like both those guys hit the canvas like.

• 2:31:41Speaker 02

  Insane.

• 2:31:42Speaker 03

  Three or four times each, you know, so.

• 2:31:43Speaker 02

  Those fights were insane.

• 2:31:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:45Speaker 02

  Some of the, like, like for people that, like, you want to see a great fight that you probably never saw before, if you only watch the UFC, go back and watch Michael Chandler versus Eddie Alvarez, one and two. Those fights are nuts.

• 2:31:59Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, like I said, it's just like a, like a.

• 2:32:01Speaker 02

  Wars.

• 2:32:01Speaker 03

  War back and forth, but that's, that's also.

• 2:32:04Speaker 02

  Two pit bulls.

• 2:32:04Speaker 03

  Chandler is a very physical guy, he's very explosive, and just think of like, back at his prime, you know, how much more explosive he was, how much power he had, how much energy he was delivering to that fight, so. And that's, that's why he was performing like that. But like, like a lot of fighters, you know, like the Roy Jones and stuff, is you can't always rely on that, especially in your later years, like that's, back to this, you gotta be thinking with, with this, especially as your body starts to get a little bit slower and not as explosive, so. I don't know, he, he's, he's over there getting after it, I mean that Gagey fight, he was definitely not on the winning end of it, but he stayed in it and, and fought hard and then.

• 2:32:43Speaker 02

  The Poirier fight, he's had some great fights.

• 2:32:45Speaker 03

  He's had some great fights for sure, I mean you fight a guy like Ruffey, Ruffey's just on a tear right now, if you don't take him down to the ground, there's not a lot of people that beat him on a pure striking match right now anyway, so.

• 2:32:56Speaker 02

  He's so good.

• 2:32:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's, see that's another one, that's another like, individual that you look at it like, like a work of art, you know, someone who really understands what it means to be a striker.

• 2:33:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and super creative, like he does a lot of wild stuff in sparring, there's some awesome sparring footage of him, like pulling off crescent kicks when he's like two inches from you.

• 2:33:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's like backfist, spinning backfist.

• 2:33:19Speaker 02

  He's artistic, I mean he's very creative when he's in there, it's beautiful to watch, he's got a great fight coming up. Um, who is he fighting? Why did I blank on it? He's fighting. Someone, oh, Armon Sarukyan.

• 2:33:36Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:33:38Speaker 04

  About two or three weeks.

• 2:33:40Speaker 02

  Yes, Armon Sarukyan, and they're fighting in LA. That's a, that's a good fight, that's a really good fight.

• 2:33:47Speaker 03

  And that's, yeah, that's, that's the whole thing with him, he's gotta like make sure he doesn't get taken down, against someone like Armon Sarukyan, that's a, that's a tall task right there.

• 2:33:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely, that guy's one of the best wrestlers in the sport. It's interesting to see him stay relevant outside the UFC when the UFC hasn't been offering fights, it's great.

• 2:34:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:34:06Speaker 02

  Very smart.

• 2:34:06Speaker 03

  He's doing his thing.

• 2:34:07Speaker 02

  He's doing his thing, it's very smart what he's doing, and, and you know, getting into the RAF matches and doing a bunch of different things on social media, he just stays out there.

• 2:34:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's hanging out with all the Twitch streamers and stuff.

• 2:34:17Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:34:18Speaker 03

  It's not like he needs money, you know, like, he's good on that part.

• 2:34:21Speaker 02

  That's weird, it's weird for a guy to be that good who's rich.

• 2:34:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:34:25Speaker 02

  He's so good, and so tough.

• 2:34:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, two trains of thought there, it's like you either have all the amenities to do so, or like, you have all the amenities, so then you're.

• 2:34:34Speaker 02

  You're a pussy.

• 2:34:35Speaker 03

  You don't need to do anything with it, yeah, just kind of.

• 2:34:36Speaker 02

  You just sit around, but not him, he's fucking shredded and he grew up rich.

• 2:34:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, like stupid rich too.

• 2:34:43Speaker 02

  Literally Bruce Wayne.

• 2:34:45Speaker 03

  He's the UFC Bruce Wayne.

• 2:34:46Speaker 02

  He's Bruce Wayne, I mean he's always got Ferraris and shit, you know, you ever watch his video series on YouTube, his training series?

• 2:34:53Speaker 03

  Uh, which one, like the vlogs or?

• 2:34:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, so they're rolling to a town, like it rolls into LA, first thing he does is goes and rents a Lamborghini. So when he shows up at training, he's driving around a rented Lamborghini everywhere, he's got that kind of scratch.

• 2:35:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:35:08Speaker 02

  And yet he's training like a fucking absolute animal, and he's a great fighter.

• 2:35:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:35:13Speaker 02

  I mean, he has no flaws in his game, no flaw in terms of heart, he doesn't quit, it's like, that, his first fight with Islam was fucking chaos, he gave Islam one of the toughest fights of his career.

• 2:35:23Speaker 03

  Right. I think that's, I think that's probably the closest, I mean besides obviously Islam's loss.

• 2:35:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:35:29Speaker 03

  That he really got tested like that, you know?

• 2:35:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:35:32Speaker 03

  And that was a short notice, wasn't it, for Armon?

• 2:35:34Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 2:35:35Speaker 03

  So he's, he's got all the skills, he's, he's a top contender for sure.

• 2:35:39Speaker 02

  And when you think about, uh, Ruffey, uh, the, the real problem that he had in the UFC was that one fight with Benoit Saint-Denis, who got taken down, and, you know. Benoit is obviously a very elite grappler, so it'd be interesting to see.

• 2:35:54Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:35:54Speaker 02

  If he can avoid, uh, Armon.

• 2:35:56Speaker 03

  That's, that's the big question right there, for sure, uh, I, I would think that that's what his camp is surrounded, uh, around is takedown defense, getting up off the bottom.

• 2:36:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:08Speaker 03

  Blocking some, uh, chokes, and being able to get back to the feet, I mean that's the thing, that's, you know, for the MMA striker guys, it's not like you have to be like the dopest wrestler like all around. But you do need to be really good at defending takedowns.

• 2:36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:23Speaker 03

  And you do need to have one, two, three escapes off the bottom, a sweep, some kind of ability to stand up, uh, you know, and then, yeah, get back to your feet and make this, make this a close fight. If you get stuck on the bottom, then you're, you're done for, you're screwed.

• 2:36:38Speaker 02

  And I think for a lot of these guys that are elite strikers, it takes that one fight where you do get dominated on the ground to really have a wake-up call. And, uh, I think a good example of that might be Cyril Gahn, when Cyril Gahn fought John Jones.

• 2:36:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:36:53Speaker 02

  You know, and also Francis, Francis beat him up on the ground as well.

• 2:36:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:36:57Speaker 02

  But the John Jones one was I think a real humbling wake-up call, because John essentially avoided getting hit completely, took him down and strangled him.

• 2:37:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:37:05Speaker 02

  Real quick.

• 2:37:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:37:06Speaker 02

  And then he's sitting there like, fuck, and from that moment on, that dude's been on a tear.

• 2:37:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:37:12Speaker 02

  I mean, and you, you see how he performed on the White House lawn against, you know, what we thought is arguably one of the greatest strikers that's ever fought in the UFC, Alex Pereira. And he certainly was at middleweight and light heavyweight, but Cyril Gahn at heavyweight is something special, man.

• 2:37:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:37:29Speaker 02

  There's a good example of a guy that you were talking about who hits and doesn't get hit, we've literally never seen him get rocked.

• 2:37:34Speaker 03

  Right, well that's like.

• 2:37:35Speaker 02

  Which is crazy.

• 2:37:35Speaker 03

  And he's, he's got that Savat-ish style, I wouldn't say it's completely Savat, but he bounces, it's almost like that karate Savat, he moves really well in and out. Dude, if you can do that at heavyweight, you're that big and you can move like that, it's gonna be very difficult for a lot of those guys to track you and keep up with that.

• 2:37:50Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And you know, we were talking about like point fighting, like how point fighting has like such a, like I think it's, it's a great skill to learn. Another great skill to learn is basketball, and that's what Cyril Gahn did, he played a lot of basketball, and if you think about a big guy. Where you're constantly exploding and moving and all this different changing directions.

• 2:38:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:38:12Speaker 02

  That would definitely benefit you with footwork.

• 2:38:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's all sorts of hand-eye coordination, you gotta be very quick and, yeah, be able to move your hands and your feet in succession, so.

• 2:38:20Speaker 02

  Cause look, nobody, no heavyweights move like that guy.

• 2:38:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:38:23Speaker 02

  He's, he's the gold standard for like elite moving heavyweights in the UFC, it's Cyril Gahn, and then there's no close second, like think, who's the close second at heavyweight? You gotta go back to.

• 2:38:34Speaker 03

  That really moves like that?

• 2:38:35Speaker 02

  Travis Brown when he was in his prime, Travis Brown when he was in his prime was very light on his feet and moved very well. But I think Cyril Gahn is like a new level, a new level of like elite mobile heavyweight, who also has ridiculous knockout power.

• 2:38:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure, I mean, I would, I would say the only person that rivals his speed and agility would be maybe like a Hoke, I don't, I haven't really seen, um.

• 2:38:58Speaker 02

  Hoke's fast, but I don't think he's got that kind of footwork speed that.

• 2:39:02Speaker 03

  That, not at all, like there's no comparison on, on the skill levels of that movement and the striking, he just has similar speed and agility, that's all I'll say.

• 2:39:11Speaker 02

  What Hoke has is elite wrestling, no.

• 2:39:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:39:13Speaker 02

  And, uh, lot of shit talking.

• 2:39:15Speaker 03

  Lot of shit talking, he gets people riled up, I don't know, I think, I think that's also something that Connor did really well, is that you got these guys going into a fight going, I cannot get beat by this guy, he just did, he said this, and he did this, and this, and I have all this pressure, and you could see it, like, you saw it on Jose, although, um. Um, what's the other Brazilian he fought?

• 2:39:38Speaker 03

  I don't know. It starts with a, an R. He's fought him before, maybe it was a second fight? Ah, I don't know, I'm blanking on his name, but-

• 2:39:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know who you're talking about, I'm seeing it in my head-

• 2:39:49Speaker 03

  You can see he comes out, he runs out all crazy, like, just everybody, everybody-

• 2:39:52Speaker 02

  He gets him wild though, yeah.

• 2:39:53Speaker 03

  If you have that added pressure, it's a psychological effect. And I think Hokkaid does the same thing, you know, he takes, takes people out of their comfort zone. Now everything's extra tense, everything's guarded, every, you're not making any like, you're, uh, you're not taking any chances or risks or stepping out of line, you're just, you're very, very safe and secluded and fighting, you know, you have to be loose when you're fighting, you can't be thinking that-

• 2:40:16Speaker 02

  And you probably didn't sleep good the night before, because you fucking hate this guy.

• 2:40:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then you're, and then you're like, yeah, riled up, pissed off, all I want to do is take his head off, you're not thinking about technique, you're thinking about taking his head off, that's it, one big overhand. It's like, dude, when you fight angry, then you're, you had all this skill, and your emotion could take it like, right out of you. See, that's another aspect of, of this striking game, of this MMA game.

• 2:40:38Speaker 02

  Do you think that that should be taught more, that, that, the mental aspect of the game, of just being able to stay in your own head and not get affected by these outside influences, not get affected by, and understand what these things are, so when you encounter them, you, you know, like, you have a coach, I think, that could teach you not just how to fight, but also how to maintain your peace of mind, and how to maintain your focus, and not get distracted.

• 2:41:06Speaker 03

  Oh, a hundred percent. I, uh, I don't know, like, everybody's individual, you know, it's hard to have a program, because you have guys that go to like, uh, athletic therapists or whatever, like, uh, performance therapists, and they sit and they do all that stuff. I think a little bit is, you're, you're born with it, you have the ability to control, like, emotions better than others, some people go through, again, back to, like, just hard life experiences, is, is the best teacher, so, a lot of people learn that way. Um, I don't know, I don't know what it is for, like, each individual person, me, like, I, the, the third person I train with is my boxing coach, Dale Royball, out of his, we let him train out of his garage, in, in his front yard, you know, and, uh,

• 2:41:48Speaker 03

  like, we, we talk spiritually beyond, like, just boxing, we talk about the world, we, we delve into the spirituality of, of the gospel and, and God, and what that means to us. Um, he, he's a big time recurve guy, that's who I went and did my archery competition with, he's a little big time leather working guy, like, um, and so we, we just sit and talk about, like, what it means to be a warrior, the, the philosophy and the psychology behind that, what it means to control your emotions, when you're engaged with certain aspects, uh, in life, how do you come out on the other side of it? Like, every day, I mean, oftentimes, we just, we stop and we're just sitting and talking about things and you know, my wife's always like, "You're just sitting there talking, hanging out with them."

• 2:42:29Speaker 03

  I'm like, "This is part of training, babe, we talking psychology, you know, like, it's something we gotta spend extra time doing." And, uh, but I do, like, I get there and we'll sit and talk for thirty minutes sometimes, before we even warm up, I'm stretching and we, then we get into, he starts wrapping hands, like, we're always just, like, adjusting and constantly talking about it, um, so-

• 2:42:49Speaker 02

  That's a great resource.

• 2:42:49Speaker 03

  To me, that's, that's fantastic, like, it's, it's, it, it makes fighting spiritual to me, it makes it, like, it takes it another level up. You know, and so, and then, yeah, I mean, I got him, we really connect on a lot of things. Eric Paulson is an absolute legend of the game, I have a lot of experience that I learned from him, a lot of mindset, he's, he's the same way. Uh, Ben Jones, he's, he's the guy that you want to go into battle with, he's the one that you guys hear in the corner, that's super loud. He's the kind of guy that, yeah, he's, he's, he's putting you through that hardship mentally and physically in the room, and, uh, if you can endure that, then you can go out and fight, so. I think there's different levels to it, you gotta get it in different ways, but, uh,

• 2:43:31Speaker 03

  uh, it's interpersonal, you know, and you gotta, you gotta delve into that, and it's gotta be its own practice, its own training for the day, so a hundred percent, I mean, yeah, if you get riled up by the littlest thing, and then you go out there and you try to go crazy, now, you're just, you're just like a kindergartner in this fight game, you've lost everything, and emotion can do that to you. So, yeah, I mean, you, you have to be on top of that, it's, you know, I, I say there's so many levels to this, there's the cardio, there's skill set, there's being relaxed, there's an emotional aspect that you have to think about, like, you know, because everybody gets hit, and like, what's the natural reaction, I'm gonna get you right back. But the, the best fighter can get hit and just not even think about it, not even get riled up one heart, you know, their heart, their heartbeat doesn't even go up one level, bam.

• 2:44:14Speaker 03

  The game plan stays the same, bam bam bam, I'm intelligently blocking, I'm doing my stuff. I've, I've never deviated from what I'm doing, and if you could do that, beautiful, you got it.

• 2:44:24Speaker 02

  That's an awesome mindset, brother, I can't wait to see you inside there again, and thank you mu- very much for being here, it was a lot of fun, I really enjoyed it.

• 2:44:31Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me, it was a great experience.

• 2:44:32Speaker 02

  My pleasure, good luck in the future, I'm sure I'll be calling one of your fights soon.

• 2:44:35Speaker 03

  Yes, sir.

• 2:44:36Speaker 02

  Alright, beautiful, bye, everybody.