#2358 - Chadd Wright

Chadd Wright is a retired Navy SEAL, endurance athlete, speaker, and entrepreneur. He is a cofounder of the Three of Seven Project, a health and self-improvement program for the body, soul, and spirit. https://www.3of7project.com See Universal Pictures’ NOBODY 2, only in theaters August 15. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do too, man. I chewed tobacco pretty much since I was about 13 years old. But you know, as you get older, you start to try to optimize everything because the world tells you everything's gonna kill you.

• 0:30Joe Rogan?

  Is chewing tobacco gonna kill you?

• 0:32Speaker 02

  Well, you know.

• 0:33Joe Rogan?

  I've heard people getting mouth cancer.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the main thing is mouth cancer. And it's pretty, mouth cancer's a pretty nasty form, all forms of cancer are pretty nasty, but mouth cancer can really screw you up. And I think it's the, you know, like the chemicals that they spray on the tobacco when they're growing the tobacco. So I don't know, maybe if you grew tobacco organically and then you chewed it, it wouldn't give you mouth cancer?

• 1:04Joe Rogan?

  Probably makes sense.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, I was just reading something that 100% of California wines that they tested had glyphosate on them. 100%.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I believe it.

• 1:16Joe Rogan?

  Which is just nuts.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  You know, yeah, that stuff is everywhere. I mean, it's not, it's never gonna go anywhere because, you know, when I was in the Navy, I lived in Virginia and we moved out to a rural community. And they grew corn and soybeans primarily in the fields and nothing else would grow in that dirt. Like you could walk the rows of those crops, you know, and there would not be a single weed growing in the field. Nothing would grow except for the genetically modified...

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Seed or whatever they put out there, you know what I mean? And how long does that stay in the soil? Like, does that ever come? Can you ever get that out of the dirt? So that other things could or would actually thrive there again? I guess after many, many years you could.

• 2:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's many, many years. I had Will Harris from, he's from Georgia, White Oaks Pastures. You ever heard of that guy?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  I actually listened to that episode that you did with him, man, because I've ordered a pile of meat from them.

• 2:17Joe Rogan?

  He's great.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  He is. That was a great episode.

• 2:20Joe Rogan?

  And it's a great episode to educate people on like, how much time it takes to take an industrial farm and convert it to regenerative agriculture. It's not easy. It's a long grind, super costly, not nearly as profitable. And, you know, he did it over a course of 20 years. And we have two jars of soil out there that he gave us. And one of them is a soil from his neighbor's farm, which is an industrial farm. And the other one is his. And his is like a dark brown, rich, alive soil. And the one from his neighbor's farm is just pale and dead. And they have to spray shit all over it and use industrial fertilizer and...

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's ugly, man.

• 3:02Joe Rogan?

  And then it's gotten so far that like, to turn it around and try to feed all the people that we have established here in this country in places where nobody's growing food. It's like, it's almost impossible. It's almost like they're stuck with this system of industrialized farming.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's, uh, it's, it's, being here in Austin, you know, I don't go to the city much. I live on 700 acres in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains.

• 3:28Joe Rogan?

  Nice.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  I come here to the city and, you know, you see the result of packing so many human beings into one area. Yeah, how you gonna feed them people? Other than, other than the way that we figured out how to do it? I mean, how you gonna feed them?

• 3:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  I don't know, man, walking around the city, man, it's just, coming from where I live, and, and don't take this as negative. I mean, people love cities. There's cool stuff in cities, right? Like, people get a lot, but me, when I come from where I live... You know, I, I, dude, where I, I'm in the woods every day for hours and hours. I don't go to town hardly ever. I'm a squirrel hunter. I have a little mountain cur, you know, we go out and squirrel hunt for hours every day. But coming to the cities, like the air burns my nose. It's like, I've been coughing all day today.

• 4:19Joe Rogan?

  You really notice it?

• 4:20Speaker 02

  I notice, I can smell it. It, it smells, now, we're staying right in downtown. The smell reminds me slightly of Lagos, Nigeria, which it's a hundred X in Lagos. It's, it literally burns your eyes and your nose to breathe the air there. But even in Austin, I can kind of smell the sour, you know, and then I'm looking at these poor people, man, like, these people laying on these park benches and all this stuff and I'm like, it just ma, it, it makes you think, it makes you wonder. The hu, humans propensity to, to stoop lower than an animal.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Like, we have the propensity as human to stoop lower than an animal.

• 5:09Joe Rogan?

  In the worst-case scenario?

• 5:10Speaker 02

  In the worst-case scenario, yeah. I mean, I understand, there's so much that goes along with the story. That those, all the, all of those people have, and it was funny, I saw a lady sitting on the, the edge of the sidewalk today. She was smoking crack or something. And, uh, now, my wife's in Maricopa. And I said, it's, it's just mind-boggling to me, me being a man of the country, to see the humans propensity to stoop that low. And she looked at me, she said, well, I've done it. I said, that's good. I, I, man, my woman is so good, brother.

• 5:47Joe Rogan?

  She came out of it.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  She, she came out of it, right? I mean, by the grace of God, but, um.

• 5:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm glad you didn't come visit us in LA. I would've showed you some real shit. This is nothing.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  I went to LA one time with my buddy Jesse Itzler. He took me out there when all this stuff started. I got out of the Navy. He said, Chad, and he said, uh, he, he asked me to come coach him, teach him how to run a long ways. And I said, odd, I'll come out there. And me and Jesse became fast friends. He said, I'm gonna take you out here to LA. He said, I'm gonna take you on a few of these interviews with these people. He said, but I want you to realize that if you decide to do this, your life will never be the same. And I said, all right, let's go.

• 6:30Joe Rogan?

  You mean like do a podcast?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:33Joe Rogan?

  Jesse's an interesting guy.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  He's one of my, he's one of my biggest mentors. He's one of, he's a close friend.

• 6:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I liked that dude a lot. I had him on.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:41Joe Rogan?

  Enjoyed talking to him.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love him to death, man. But he, uh, yeah, he took me out there and, and LA was, uh, yeah, it, it put me back really that some of the places that we went were very similar to some of the areas that we deployed to. Just in the smell and the sights and, you know, the way people were living. It was wild, man.

• 7:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a chaotic environment and you get used to anything and people that live there get used to it. They don't know what real peace is like. You know, like when I would tell people why I like mountain hunting, I'd be like, man, it's like a vitamin that you didn't know you needed. You get out in there in the mountains and you smell that clean air and you just feel it, just your whole body just goes, ah, this is, this is so much better. This is so much better to live like this.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  It is.

• 7:26Joe Rogan?

  I just don't get a chance to do it that often. You know, I don't live in it like you do. Living in it is the ultimate. You know, if you could live in it and then go visit other places, that's way better to live in nature.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  The noise too. The, the, the noise, I don't think that people who live in the city, they've become acclimated to all of the constant noise.

• 7:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  It's never quiet. But when I enter into that environment, like that noise is doing, it does something to me, like the traffic and the, the constant humming and

• 8:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  it just, I, I, I feel like I'm, I, I, I begin to hold this tension within me.

• 8:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  I don't know what it's doing to me. I don't know, man.

• 8:10Joe Rogan?

  It's sensory overload. Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  But I guess you can become accustomed to it.

• 8:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, people in New York City have to become accustomed to it and they actually like it. They like that feeling of sensory overload. But everybody that I know that likes that is fairly unhealthy. I don't know any like real fit, healthy, active people that really enjoy that environment.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  So why, why do you, why, why, I understand you love what you do. But I mean, you could build a studio somewhere out in the. Out in a mountain somewhere.

• 8:40Joe Rogan?

  We're gonna probably do that. We're gonna probably build a studio on a ranch next. That's the, that's the next move. I want to have like a tactical course out there.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Good for you, bro.

• 8:48Joe Rogan?

  Bass fishing lake and have it set up and do fun shit with guests, too.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Cause people are gonna come see you, man.

• 8:54Joe Rogan?

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• 9:37Joe Rogan?

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• 10:39Joe Rogan?

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• 11:22Joe Rogan?

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• 11:38Speaker 02

  It's, I mean, what you've done, man, is so cool. I tell people all the time. If you ever have the opportunity to go and see someone who is the best in the world at what they do, take that opportunity. Whether it's a runner, a fighter, a kayaker, or a podcaster. Like, it's so cool to be here and to get to witness what you do, how you do it, the level that you go to to make all this happen. You're the best in the world. Like, that's it. That's so cool for me, man. Like, if we don't talk here but for 30 minutes, I got to see the best in the world do what he does.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  And how cool is that, man?

• 12:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  And like, the hospitality that you have, you know, given me since I've been here, it's just next level. And that's what you see when you get to witness the best in the world do whatever it is they are the best at. You just get to see this whole nother level of proficiency, of skill, of technique, of mastery. And that opens up your mind into like, what's possible.

• 12:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this, I mean, you can go back and watch the beginning episodes of this. It was terrible in the early days.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Well, I'm a podcaster too, man. I mean,

• 13:01Joe Rogan?

  I know you are. I watch your show all the time.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  I've got like four hundred and something episodes out and same here when I first started. Yeah, it was awful, but it's so much fun. I love it. I love it.

• 13:11Joe Rogan?

  I think I found your show because of a video that you did on your Land Cruiser, because I'm a Land Cruiser nut.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:17Joe Rogan?

  And you were talking about like have a truck that will fucking like no matter what will work. Like if if they throw EMP pulses in the air and kill all the electronics, which is, people don't understand, like every car everyone is driving has a fucking computer in it. And if something goes on, that there's some sort of a power grid failure or some sort of a a solar flare that knocks out electronics, it could knock out your fucking car. You have a brick now. It's not going to work. If you don't have a carburetor and you have a car, like a regular old school car.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:54Joe Rogan?

  It's not going, you know, Tucker Carlson, he drives like a nineteen seventy eight pickup truck. And I go, why do you drive that? And he goes, because they can't shut it off. The government can't get, it's got no GPS, got no, he's super fucking paranoid.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Well, the newest vehicle that I have, and yes, Land Cruisers are my favorite. I've become close friends with Daniel at TLC Four by Four, and he's done two for me, a hundred series and a sixty series.

• 14:17Joe Rogan?

  And they did mine too when they were in LA.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, they're just awesome. And like I said, my favorite part about driving the Land Cruiser is that it makes people smile. I'm not a very funny guy, you know? So there's not many, I don't get many opportunities to make human beings smile. But I can drive this Land Cruiser and people look at it, point at it, they're smiling and like that just, that's cool to me. You know what I mean?

• 14:42Joe Rogan?

  Especially sixty series, I think. There's like a core group of people who love those things.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  They, yeah, and you don't see them.

• 14:49Joe Rogan?

  When I see one, I slow down, I check it out.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the newest vehicle that I have, and I'm a car guy. Uh, now I was poor most of my life. I'm still fairly poor. But you know, I got enough money, I can buy the cars that I want now. And the newest car that I have is a nineteen ninety seven. Dodge diesel truck. I have two ninety-seven, I have an OBS Ford, it's a ninety-seven with the Powerstroke diesel. I have a ninety-seven Dodge Ram with the Cummins diesel. Because those are the two best diesel engines undisputedly that have ever been produced. Um, I have the hundred series Land Cruiser. Actually, the hundred series is a ninety-eight. But I kinda gave that to my brother. So I can't count that.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  The sixty series is an eighty-four. I have an eighty-six Toyota, they call pickup, it's a Hilux.

• 15:41Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  I don't know if I'm missing something, but I love, I love old cars, man.

• 15:46Joe Rogan?

  Those old Toyotas are bulletproof, they never break.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  That's my squirrel hunting truck.

• 15:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  It'll go anywhere. You know, why am I gonna go spend thirty thousand dollars on a side-by-side? I, I can get in this Toyota truck and I can go anywhere you can go in a, in a, uh, side-by-side.

• 16:02Joe Rogan?

  That's true.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  That's my squirrel hunting truck, man.

• 16:04Joe Rogan?

  So is squirrel hunting the most hunting that you do?

• 16:09Speaker 02

  I love, it probably, it's, I do it every day that I'm at home. I squirrel hunt every day.

• 16:15Joe Rogan?

  How much squirrel do you eat?

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Well, I eat squirrel on special occasions. Uh, I give away a lot of squirrel meat, you know? I'm blessed enough in life now that I can eat ribeye steak. Um, I give away a lot of squirrel. I don't kill all the squirrels that we tree either. Uh, really, since I, a young age, I, I was introduced to hunting with dogs, tree dogs specifically. And it, there was something about a tree dog that just stirred this, this passion within me.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  It is the sing, it is the only thing that has stuck with me from childhood, young childhood. The first tree dog I ever walked to, I mean, I was, I didn't even know, I, I should, probably shouldn't even have been in the woods. But I followed my uncle to a coonhound tree down in a swamp. And it just, even at that age, it just stirred something in me like. This is some sort of primal instinct of partnering with this dog in this chase. And I've done it even up until now. And it's just a, it's a unique experience, man.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  And the great thing about dogs, hunting dogs too, is the breeding aspect of it. That's a lot of fun. So not only are, do you have your best friend, you know, my little mountain cur, her name's Wendy. She stays in the house. She's my best friend. We hunt every day together. But, but now I get to breed her, I get to select a mate. And over the course, I'm hoping over the course of the next 30 years or so, I can breed in these specific characteristics of this type of dog that I value. And so that's fun, you know? Not only is the hunting fun, but the breeding is fun, the training's fun, everything about

• 18:20Speaker 02

  it's fun. And you take a group of guys out squirrel hunting, man, and it's a blast because you don't have to be quiet. Look, man, you just, you're out there in the woods on four wheelers, everybody's got shotguns, you know, you get to the tree, here's this dog just hammering a tree on this tree. Everybody surrounds the tree and that squirrel gets nervous and he starts timbreing out, going tree to tree, and you've got five or six guys with shotguns blasting away and everybody's cutting up and laughing. I mean, it's just a blast, dude. But that's my thing, you know? That's a funny thing. I like to, I like to hunt whitetails. I like, I get to go on my first elk hunt this year. Oh, wow. Where you going?

• 19:02Speaker 02

  There's a, there's a, a family out in Utah, they, they own some ranch out there. I think it's called R5 Ranch, and they wanted to put a hunt on for a veteran. So they partnered with an outfitter called G3 Outfitters, and they bought a tag, and for some odd reason, they selected me as their veteran that they want to take out on an elk hunt. Now, I've always wanted the elk hunt, man. I've just, you know, I've just never made it happen. There's a lot that goes into it, as you know. Yeah. And so they're taking me to New Mexico.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  They bought a, some tag from a landowner and uh, they're gonna take me out there elk hunting.

• 19:44Joe Rogan?

  That's a great spot. New Mexico's a great spot for elk.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  He sent me some pictures of some of these bulls.

• 19:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  I said, what an animal.

• 19:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, New Mexico's got some crazy genetics too. There's uh, there's two, there's, there's a guy who explained this to me. That there's really two different, besides like, Tule elk and Roosevelt elk. There's Rocky Mountain elk and then there's Yellowstone elk. And the Yellowstone elk are an older breed. That has a larger antlers, a bigger animal. And you find a lot of those in uh, Arizona. And you find a lot of those in New Mexico.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  So where we're hunting at is right, it, it is on the border of Arizona and New Mexico.

• 20:24Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, yeah, so I bet you have great genetics out there.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  You know what, man, I can't believe it. I, I can't believe this is the first, that my, gonna be my first elk hunt.

• 20:34Joe Rogan?

  Are you rifle or bow hunting?

• 20:36Speaker 02

  It's gonna be rifle. Now, now I'm a big, I'm a big archery guy too. Um, when I hunt whitetails, when I started hunting whitetails, that was, what I did was bow hunt. And still bow hunt quite a bit. But uh, but this is a rifle hunt.

• 20:51Joe Rogan?

  I love rif- bow hunting. Rifle hunting's great. It's most effec- effective, most efficient way to hunt. But there's something about having to get inside, you know, seventy, eighty yards, sneaking up, executing a perfect shot.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Now you're a Hoyt guy too, right?

• 21:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  I have been too, all my life.

• 21:10Joe Rogan?

  They make ama- amazing bows.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  My wi- my wife a couple of years ago bought me that RX-7.

• 21:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  With the carbon ri- uh, carbon fiber riser.

• 21:20Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  I always wanted a bow with a carbon riser because I remember hunting, so many hunts in the southeast whitetail hunts. Walking into the stand and your hand just getting so cold.

• 21:31Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  Carrying that bow around.

• 21:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's the difference. Carbon doesn't get cold like that, like, like aluminum does.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the main reason I wanted one. But it's been a great bow.

• 21:40Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Universal Pictures' Nobody 2. A couple of years ago, Bob Odenkirk showed up out of nowhere as an action star in Nobody. Now, he's back in the sequel to Nobody 2. This time, Hutch tries to go on vacation with his family and all hell breaks loose. It's a real delight to see a guy like Odenkirk kick some serious ass. Produced by 87 North, the same team behind hits like John Wick, Bullet Train, and The Fall Guy. Don't miss Universal Pictures' Nobody 2, only in theaters August 15th. Yeah, they make them better every year, and I don't know how the fuck they do it.

• 22:20Joe Rogan?

  Every year, they just tune a little bit of this and change a little bit of that and adjust the cams and just...

• 22:27Speaker 02

  They've probably got it mapped out for the next 10 years in advance.

• 22:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, oh, they do.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  They could go ahead and make the best one, they just, you know...

• 22:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, it's incremental improvements based on like how the industry is going. But we went to the Hoyt Factor, I've been to the Hoyt Factor a few times. But we went recently and showed the process that they make those things. It's so incredible. It's all these like super sophisticated computers and machines and CNC machines. They're cutting the aluminum and, you know, they have like so many different steps to make sure that quality control is perfect.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:58Joe Rogan?

  And at the end, when you get it, you really appreciate it. And they're so smooth now. Like, I've been bow hunting for 12 years now, 13 years, 13 years? And just the difference in 13 years is crazy. Like, if I go back and pick up one of my old bows, it just feels archaic.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:15Joe Rogan?

  They're so smooth now. The draw cycle's so smooth and they're so dead in the hand when you fire them.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  And those parallel limbs and they're so short and compact. You know, the old bows we used to shoot back in the day, the old Viper Tex and all that from Hoyt. And Matthews had the old SQ2s and Q2s and they were just long and, uh, unwieldy in the, in the stand. And, you know, you know, you can make, like you said, 100-yard shots now with a compound bow. Back then, I mean, there wasn't nobody shooting them bows at 100 yards.

• 23:50Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Because they just weren't tuned... I think so finely as the bows that we have today. I mean, that RX7, man. Every time I shoot that bow, it it amazes me at how that arrow is just flies like a laser beam.

• 24:06Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  I'm like, good night, man.

• 24:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  It's a cool. Have you ever shot a stick bow?

• 24:12Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:13Joe Rogan?

  I'm not good at it, though. I shot it on vacation once. I was shocked at how bad I was because I'm so good with a compound bow.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:20Joe Rogan?

  Trying to figure out where to aim, where it goes, and do all this shit, and how to let loose right. It's a, I have a buddy who hunts exclusively, my buddy, um, uh, Ryan Callahan, he hunts exclusively with a homemade bow. He's got a, like, a longbow that he made. I don't know if he made this one. I know he's made them before. But, you know, it's those real simple bows. I'm like, why? You can't even get much energy out of that thing, but it's the extra challenge.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  You gotta get real close.

• 24:49Joe Rogan?

  You gotta get real close and be real accurate.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I went, I took man on a mule deer hunt up in, uh, the Wasatch range in Utah two years ago. And, yeah, I mean, you, you gotta get within seven to 10 yards of that animal with, with a longbow.

• 25:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  I mean, I do, I do anyways, you know, Fred Bear, my, he might could have made a 20 or 30 yard shot, but, you know, you gotta get, you gotta get right in their laps. And we were, I was on public land. It was a wilderness area. That's where I like to hunt. I mean, I like wilderness areas. Uh, that's the highest designation of preservation that Congress can award to a piece of land. So, if you're in a wilderness area, you know, there's not gonna be no horses, no mechanized tools, nobody's gonna be clearing tra-trails with a chainsaw up there. If you ever want to go in, in the backcountry, find a wilderness area. Not a national park, not a national forest, find a wilderness area.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  But we were watching these mule deer, and you know, I'd watch them in the morning, they'd get up and feed. Well, then I'd, I'd wait for them to go lay down. And then you had to move on that mule deer and use the terrain, put the terrain between you and him. And they'd be bedded down and you could get with, the closest I got to one was about five yards. And he was bedded down under a tree, just kinda out in this big old rock, I was way up in the mountains, big old rocky area. Well, I stalked all the way up there to him and I got about five yards from where I'd last seen, where I saw him bed down at, you know, I lost sight of him when I started to stalk. And I got impatient and I got there and I was laid down up against the rock and that

• 26:34Speaker 02

  tree was right there and I thought, you know, it took me about an hour to stalk over here. I said, I wonder if he got up and moved. And I peeked my head up over that rock and that big son of a gun was just looking right at me, I'm talking about eye to eye, five yards. He jumped up and tore out of there. That was the closest I got to killing one, but if I would've just laid there with that longbow and been patient and waited for him to stand up off his bed.

• 27:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  I could've drew and shot him right there.

• 27:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's probably already alert. He probably heard you.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  I don't know if he heard me or not.

• 27:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  I had the wind, I had the wind.

• 27:14Joe Rogan?

  Their ears are so good.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  I had shoes on, but you know, I'm stalking across big granite, you know, rock slabs and stuff, so it was pretty quiet. I mean, there was no indication, when I picked my head up, he was still laying there on bed. There was no indication that he knew I was there, other than when he saw me peek my head over the rock and stand up and tear out of there, you know?

• 27:37Joe Rogan?

  They're the most difficult to hunt, because they're just dealing with mountain lions all day long.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:42Joe Rogan?

  And they're just always like, and they'll jump the string quicker than any animal. Other than like, the craziest ones are axis deer. Have you ever hunted axis deer?

• 27:51Speaker 02

  I haven't, no.

• 27:52Joe Rogan?

  Axis deer evolved with tigers. So they're, they move so fast. I, I had a video of an axis deer that I shot at, at seventy plus yards, and with a lighted knock, and you see the arrow, I mean, his arrow's going two hundred and ninety feet a second, you see this arrow launching towards this deer, and this deer is feeding in the field, totally Broadside, he hears the arrow within ten yards, ducks down, hauls out, and he's gone. By the arrow got, by the time the arrow got to.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  He hears the arrow in flight.

• 28:25Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. He had no idea. We were very far away. That's why I took the shot. It's one of the things with those animals like, you're sometimes better off taking a long shot than a close shot because they hear that bow go off and they just duck and go. I mean, they're not trying to duck under your arrow. What they're trying to do is load up their weapons, or load up their legs, rather. Get super low so they can launch themselves forward and gone. They're just trying to take off as quickly as possible. And that means dropping down. And when they drop down, arrows go right over them. But this one was so fast, within ten yards. He was nowhere near the arrow. His ass was over here. The, the, the vitals where I aimed for was right here. He was already over there.

• 29:06Joe Rogan?

  He was two feet away from it and he didn't start moving until that arrow was ten yards away.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Where was that at?

• 29:12Joe Rogan?

  That was in Hawaii.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Hawaii, okay.

• 29:14Joe Rogan?

  Lanai is a crazy place. Cause Lanai has no predators and it's a small island. It only has three thousand people living on it. But it has thirty thousand deer, plus.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  So they want you to kill them.

• 29:26Joe Rogan?

  They want you to kill them. Kill them as many as you can. They have people that are snipers that go out there at night and everybody on the island eats good. Cause it's the best meat. Axis deer is delicious if you've ever had it. It's right up there with elk. It's fantastic meat. And they're just completely overpopulated, so they have to do it. So people hunt them there three hundred and sixty-five days a year. So high pressure. So they're used to like, they're always with, with their head on a swivel, always looking around for a hunter.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  That would be a fun hunt. That would tune you up.

• 29:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's great before elk season.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would tune you up.

• 29:59Joe Rogan?

  Because you'll get, if you blow a stalk, you get another stalk in ten seconds. Like you're on another animal and you're in these fields that used to be where the dhole plant grew pineapples. So it's, it's kind of a weird ground. Like, I guess the way they would farm pineapples, they would put like a layer of plastic down and then the soil would be above the plastic. So everywhere you go, it's weird. You see like, almost like garbage bag plastic underneath the dirt all over the place.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  I'll be darned.

• 30:29Joe Rogan?

  And these animals are, you, you like, you'll sit on the top of a hill and look down on a field and you might see six hundred Axis deer. Wandering around this field.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Good night, man.

• 30:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's, it's crazy. It's crazy. It's, it's so unnatural.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  But is that are they are they're not native?

• 30:46Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 30:47Joe Rogan?

  They were given to King Kamehameha by I think the king of India. Whatever the ruler of India was in the eighteen hundreds and they gave and they've had them on this island forever. And they're just completely overpopulated.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:02Joe Rogan?

  They're all like all over the place and big ones too.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  That'd be a fun hunt.

• 31:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's a great hunt. It's a great if if you have a rifle, it's a no brainer. It's like you're one hundred percent gonna get a deer. But if you got a bow, I mean, I went out there with Cam Haynes and Remy Warren and Adam Green Tree and all these just like bona fide killers who like world-class hunters.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Cam's best in the world, man.

• 31:25Joe Rogan?

  The best in the world. And we and John Dudley was there too. We went out there and we were there for like six or seven days and everyone was successful. And then we made a podcast about it, blew up the outfitters, a great place to go hunt. You stay at the Four Seasons, incredible food, amazing amenities, beautiful, beautiful resort. And then you get to go and hunt in this incredible place. But after we left, he said they had a hundred and fifty people come within that season from from then until the time we went back the next year. One guy was successful with a bow. One. One.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  Night, man.

• 32:02Joe Rogan?

  And you have so many opportunities, but they're so fast. And if you

• 32:06Speaker 02

  That's bad odds.

• 32:07Joe Rogan?

  Bad odds.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, you have, here's the deal. Don't try the morning. I used I've hunted in the morning and I've been successful, but it's too fucking quiet. You really want to go in the afternoon because in the afternoon you get a lot of wind.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:19Joe Rogan?

  And you know, you just gotta pick your spots and play your stocks correctly.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Have you turkey hunted?

• 32:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  Eastern or or what what type of turkey?

• 32:28Joe Rogan?

  California. It was in California.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:30Joe Rogan?

  It was in

• 32:30Speaker 02

  I don't know what's out there, Mariams or?

• 32:32Joe Rogan?

  Probably. It was in the the the wine country. Up there, I went up there with Steve Vanilla.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:39Joe Rogan?

  He took me turkey hunting. It was fun.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  You know, his buddy's a big squirrel hunter. Steve's buddy's a big squirrel hunter. What's that guy's name?

• 32:46Joe Rogan?

  Clay Newcomb.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Clay Newcomb. Yeah, he's got a bunch of fies dogs. He I think he hunts off of mules.

• 32:50Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  I'll tell you what we ought to do. We ought to set up a big squirrel hunt with everybody. Me, me and you and Clay and Cam and, and we'll just, we ought to set up a big squirrel hunt.

• 33:02Joe Rogan?

  I'll do, I've had squirrel once. With Rinella, he cooked some squirrel up for us.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Boy, if we could get him to come in and cook too, that would be outstanding.

• 33:10Joe Rogan?

  It would be.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Cause I have a hard time making this wild game taste, taste worth a flip.

• 33:14Joe Rogan?

  Do you?

• 33:15Speaker 02

  I'm just not a good cook, man.

• 33:16Joe Rogan?

  I noticed that. Well, I was gonna talk to you about your steak cooking. We gotta work on that.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm, I'm just not much of a cook, man.

• 33:22Joe Rogan?

  I watched you cook a steak on a Traeger and I was like, listen, the way to cook a steak on a Traeger is, you can cook a steak on a Traeger. Like you could cook, like if you have a roast, like you can cook a good roast on the Traeger, but the reality is you need to be able to sear it. And so you can't really sear things on a Traeger. And I saw what you did. You tried to turn the temperature up real high and then cook at the end. The key is get it on a frying pan. Like get it low and slow on the Traeger. I like 225 degrees with the super smoke. Get it nice and smoky. Get it up to 120 degrees and then cast iron skillet. Get that motherfucker hot. Put some beef tallow in there and like 90 seconds on each side.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Seals it up.

• 34:04Joe Rogan?

  Perfect.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Now, do you do much of your own cooking?

• 34:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I do almost all my own cooking.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 34:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I cook a lot.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Does your wife cook?

• 34:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, she cooks too.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, my, my wife cooks. I'm so blessed that she cooks, cause I've got a long ways to go. I actually made a, a goal of mine I've been working on. I, I cook for her one night a week. And it's worked out a few times, but I'm learning. I appreciate that tip on the steak though, man.

• 34:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the tip on the steak, it's reverse sear is what it's called. And I learned that from Whiskey Bent, my friend Chad, Whiskey Bent BBQ. And he said, if you really wanna cook a steak correctly, he goes, you want it to be slowly cooked and then sear the outside. A lot of people will try to sear it first. He's like, I don't agree with that. The other thing, the way to get the juiciest steak is to slow cook it and then sear it at the end. The reverse sear method.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Well, I'm gonna try that when I get to the house.

• 34:55Joe Rogan?

  It's the move.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  My cu- my cousin raises all the cows we eat.

• 34:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's great.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  My mama makes all the bread we eat. My wife grows all the, the vegetables that we eat. I'm, I'm gonna say seasonally, you know what I mean, seasonally.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  My cousin raises all the cows. You know, we get our water right out of the ground. I take buckets of water once a week, go collect water. Comes right out of a, a, a spring, some old rednecks. Found a spring back in there and ran a PVC pipe out of it, you know, and so we just go there and collect all our water.

• 35:29Joe Rogan?

  So you're totally off the grid.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Well, you know, we'll, we'll order some stuff from the grocery store, you know, just it, it would.

• 35:36Joe Rogan?

  But your home is totally off the grid.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  It wouldn't be hard at all to, to ramp things up to the point that we were 100% eating what we could produce as a family unit. No, no one person, like, no one person is going to produce everything that they need for them and their family to eat.

• 35:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  It's my cousin, he raises cows, you know, so we know where they're coming from, we know how they're living. We know what they're being fed. Like I said, my mama makes bread, my wife can grow anything. Uh, it's an effort, you know, I hunt. I can bring in wild game meat at any time. Everybody thinks, thinks about when the apocalypse comes, you know, you think you're gonna be eating all these deer and elk and stuff. You're gonna be eating squirrel buddy. Squirrel and birds, maybe a possum every now and then. Them deer's gonna be gone quick.

• 36:31Joe Rogan?

  Probably, right?

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Small game, smas, if, if you wanna really subsistence, you know, get your meat from the wild, you gotta be able to hunt small game. Squirrels, rabbits, coon, possum, you gotta be able to hunt them. You know, you go out and try to hunt a coon without a dog, you ain't gonna kill no coon.

• 36:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  You know, I can take a good dog and I can kill 10 coons in an, an hour if I'm in a good spot.

• 36:56Joe Rogan?

  What does raccoon taste like?

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Raccoon's pretty greasy. You gotta, again, you gotta cook it right, you know? So much wild game, other than elk, I've found elk seems to be really, really good, even if you're not a skilled cook.

• 37:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  You know, to me anyways, it's the best wild game meat I've ever ate.

• 37:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  But, but like these squirrels, coons, uh, things like small game, even rabbit, they can get real tough. You know, that you can.

• 37:27Joe Rogan?

  Is that raccoon jam?

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's coon right there. You cook it in a crock pot, a lot of this small game, you, you, uh, slow cook it, you know? And that kinda helps keep it moist and, and break it down.

• 37:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  But anyways, man, I'm all over the darn place.

• 37:41Joe Rogan?

  And you probably have to cook it to a high temperature, too. Raccoons probably get trichinosis, right?

• 37:46Speaker 02

  I don't know if a coon does or not. I've killed a bunch of bears and I know they do.

• 37:51Joe Rogan?

  They do.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the one thing I didn't like about bear.

• 37:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, me too. It makes me uncomfortable.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  I killed, I've killed two black bears, both of them with my bow. Uh, both of them about 500 pounds.

• 38:04Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, those are big black bears.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  Big, big black bears.

• 38:07Joe Rogan?

  Are these Georgia black bears?

• 38:08Speaker 02

  No, these are Virginia. There's a place in Virginia called the Great Dismal Swamp. It's about 110,000 acre continuous block of land. That's what's left of it. It's eat up with bears. I mean, I would take my coon dog down, down the, the swamp bottom. We called it the run. And during springtime, when them bears were out with cubs, I couldn't even hardly run my coon dog up and down through there. There were so many bears in there. And them sows would get, they would get, you know, mad at us for being in there and start popping their teeth and making racket. I took a young man with me down in there one time. First time he ever been coon hunting. I was hunting a dog called a leopard cur.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  And I cut that dog loose in there and he went down in there, ah, boom, slam, treeed. I thought, alright, this is good, because coon hunting can be rough. We walked down in there and I had this man, this young guy with me, he had the rifle. We got up to the tree and I walk up to that dog and leash it up. And I'm fooling with the dog, getting it leashed back on the tree there. And he said, what is that? I said, what are you talking about? He said, stop and listen. And I stopped and that dog quit barking for a second. And all of a sudden, I could hear bark raining down on the leaves above my head, because it was summertime. About that time, about 300 pound black bear comes sliding down out of that tree like it was on a fireman's pole.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  Landed, I'm talking about that jugger landed right in the midst of me, him, and the dog. And he's standing there, he's just frozen, because he never been coon hunting before. He's got the gun. He's just frozen. And about the time that bear hit the ground, I snapped the leash off of that dog, because the dog was my only chance to run this bear out of our vicinity. And those, these cur dogs are real gritty. They won't back up. They're, I, I mean, they won't back up from nothing. They're like a, like a gamecock, man.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  And that dog tore out after that bear, ran him out. I looked over at that boy, I said, "What, were you just gonna, you've got the gun, you just stood there and did?" He said, "Well, I thought that happens all the time." But that's how many bears was in this area, man. So I'd be out there whitetail hunting, you know, and a big old 500-pound boar bear would come up. You know, I've had them climb the tree that I was sitting in, the tree stand. But, you know, if a big one came by, it's hard, it's hard not to shoot a big trophy bear, especially with a bow. Um, so I've killed two, but when we killed them bear, I would just, uh, there was a lot of poor, real poor people that lived around in there.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Well, there was one man named Zachariah. He was about a 90-year-old black man, he had one eye. He hunted year-round because he had to hunt to eat. We'd see him out in the field deer hunting in the middle of summertime, wouldn't nobody say nothing to him because they knew he had to eat. But I'd call Zachariah when I'd kill that bear. Well, then he would call all of his people in the community. And we'd take that bear down to the skinning shed. And within 10 minutes, we'd have 50 people lined up at the skinning shed with grocery bags. And so we would cut this bear up and process this bear. And these, you know, poor people, they'd come down there and get them a big piece of meat.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Well, by the time everybody was done, there wasn't maybe but one piece of meat left, you know what I mean? Cause I don't like bear, but I sure do like killing them.

• 41:39Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever had it cooked well, done well?

• 41:42Speaker 02

  We've, we've cooked some at the house, but I haven't, I mean, I haven't, that, that's what I'm saying, I'm not a good cook, man.

• 41:49Joe Rogan?

  You just have to learn how to do it. My friends John and Jen, they run an outfitter and they're outfitters in Alberta and they're bear hunters. And I've been bear hunting with them and they take like a roast and they'll cook it on a Traeger, they brine it. They put it in like, uh, they marinate it and it's fantastic. It's like some of like, better than the best roast beef you've ever had.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Oh, I know there's a way. There's a way to make it taste good.

• 42:14Joe Rogan?

  It's all, it's also in what they eat. You know, if you get them and they've been eating like a dead moose and you know, and they've been feasting on that for a couple of weeks and then it's rotten and they just, they stink and it's not good.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  No.

• 42:27Joe Rogan?

  You want to get acorn bears.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  These bears we were killing, what they would, they, the reason they were so big, they were eating corn and soybeans.

• 42:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, perfect.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  You know, they, now they'd eat a pile of deer guts too. I mean.

• 42:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they eat everything.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  I, I would, I would gut a deer out there, you know, if I killed a deer, I'd gut it in the woods. I don't gut them back at the house. I just gut them in the woods and you come back an hour later and they wouldn't be a, not a, not a speck of them guts left.

• 42:51Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  I mean, they would eat the fire out of them.

• 42:54Joe Rogan?

  Do you know that the early pioneers preferred bear meat and they used deer just for skins?

• 43:00Speaker 02

  No, I did not know that.

• 43:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're like Daniel Boone and all those fellows. They, those guys, they were bear hunters.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  They wanted the fat.

• 43:08Joe Rogan?

  They eat, yeah, they wanted the fat and they ate bear meat because they thought it was closer to beef.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 43:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Well, it is closer to beef, I would say than, than deer.

• 43:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I would say so. Especially if it's cooked well, it's delicious. It's just, you gotta get a bear that's not eating rotten meat and not eating fish and, and cook it right. But if you cook it right, it's fantastic. It's really good. Bear sausage is fantastic. It's all just in how you get it prepared.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:33Joe Rogan?

  How you do it. Renell is really good at it.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Well, see, I gotta start running in the right circles with people that can cook.

• 43:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  That's my problem.

• 43:41Joe Rogan?

  My friend Jesse, who owns this restaurant out here called Dye Dwee. What is Jesse's at, uh, he's, he runs a school that teaches people how to shoot hogs, how to, how to butcher them, how to cook them. And you know, he, he likes old ruddy old hogs and he really knows how to do it correctly. So this is it. Um, this is a new school of traditional cookery. So Jesse will take people and he'll take them out there, teach them how to hunt, teach them every, everything about it.

• 44:17Joe Rogan?

  How to, how to stalk an animal, how to dress the game, how to cook it and prepare it and what the cuts you're looking for. And he teaches classes on this.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  How cool is that?

• 44:28Joe Rogan?

  It's amazing. I mean, it's a small class because he wants to do it correctly, but. He's incredible. In that restaurant, if you ever get a chance to go to it, Da Dua in town, it's amazing.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go ahead and tell you, if you can make an old boar hog taste good,

• 44:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  you have got to be a master.

• 44:46Joe Rogan?

  He's a master. He also like cooked diver ducks for us, which everybody says are disgusting.

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:52Joe Rogan?

  And they were fantastic. And he's like, it's all just in the preparation.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:56Joe Rogan?

  He marinated them, he slow cooked them on a smoker. They were fantastic.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  All that stuff just takes time, you know?

• 45:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  It just takes time. It's so much easier just to, just to cook a ribeye.

• 45:06Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 45:07Joe Rogan?

  That's the easiest.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  It's the easiest.

• 45:09Joe Rogan?

  The easiest is, yeah. It's just, there's something about wild game to me that's, it's a different kind of food.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:18Joe Rogan?

  It's, it feels different when you eat it. There's more energy to it.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:22Joe Rogan?

  It's like, it's just so nutrient dense. You eat it and your whole body just goes, woo. Woo. You feel it, you know? Like you cook an elk steak and you eat that medium rare and you're just biting into it and it's juicy and ah.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  I can't wait, man.

• 45:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  I hope I get one. I think I got a good chance of getting one. These boys are serious.

• 45:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  So.

• 45:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, with a rifle, your chances are a lot higher. And I know you're a real good shot. So you're probably, and it, a guy like you also could shoot accurately at a distance, which is huge.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:56Joe Rogan?

  You'll have no idea you're there. You know, you can, I'm sure you can make a 500 yard shot easy. And if your rifle's tuned correctly for something like that, it's like, you got a pretty good shot.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  Have you been, uh, have you been up to the Yukon Territory at all?

• 46:09Joe Rogan?

  No, no, I haven't.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  I just got back.

• 46:12Joe Rogan?

  What were you doing up there?

• 46:12Speaker 02

  It's been, it's been, you know, it's been quite the journey, both on the, on the macro and the micro level to wind up here at this table with you. I, I spent the last, about the last month, sitting with a good friend of mine, one of my biggest mentors in my life. I said, I'd sit with him for hours on end while he was dying. Uh, and, um, then I, I had to leave him and I went out to the Yukon. Sorry, man. Uh, we need to talk more about that, by the way.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  And I had, I've got a teammate that I went through SEAL training and all with. He was paralyzed 14 years ago. And he wanted to go on an adventure. And I said, "Well, there's a race out there. It's a thousand mile kayaking race. It's the longest kayaking race in the world on the Yukon River." Totally unsupported. He said, "All right." Well, he prepared for about two years. And we went out there and did that on the Yukon River. Wow. I came home and my buddy died the day I got home.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  And so, it's been a, man, it's been a while. Last month or so. Have you ever got to sit with anybody? While they're dying? Important to you? Not while they're dying. I highly recommend it. It will teach you so much, man. About what's important? It has made me grow.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Like, I don't know, man, it just gives me the dang on chills thinking about it. And the crazy thing is, is the type of person that I used to be, I would've thought, you know, going and sitting with someone who's dying is a waste of time. Like, I've got other things to do, right? You do too. We've got busy lives.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Well, this man, he mentored me hunting and everything, working, all of that. His name was Don Tidwell. From the time I was about 13 to the time I left to go become a Navy SEAL.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Well, I did my whole Navy thing. I got out, I reconnected with Don for a while, but then I started this company now that we have, Three of Seven Project, got busy. I have a curse from my military service. It's, I have this unique ability to be able to forget you ever existed. Uh, when I, you know, when you, when I get on some sort of mission and you're not part of that anymore, I can forget you ever existed. And so I lost touch with him because of my own selfishness and been doing this thing for the last four or five years. Well,

• 49:13Speaker 02

  his wife called me and said, "Look, he just wants to see you one more time. He's got pancreatic cancer. He's got maybe two weeks left. He just wants to see you one more time." Phew. Good night, man. Took a lot of courage for me to go show up in front of him and sit down with him and say, "Mr. Don, I'm sorry I haven't been the friend to you that you deserve. Will you forgive me?" He's laying there dying. He looks back at me and says, "Son, there's nothing to forgive."

• 49:54Speaker 02

  I mean, just like, and, and then from that point, I'd go sit with him twice a week for eight or nine or 10 hours, just sit right there by his bed. I'd read the scriptures to him. He only had a third grade education. We read about the gospel and we read about the resurrection and we read about creation and, you know, we don't, the first thing that you learn, I think, when you sit with somebody that's dying is that death is the great foe that, that sits above mankind and scoffs at our wisdom. You get what I'm saying?

• 50:34Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  He said, "The death is this great foe. It is the enemy that sits above us and mocks the wisdom of man." Uh, Mr. Don had built a, uh, an, basically an empire within the, within the community he lived in. He had made millions and millions of dollars as an entrepreneur, couldn't read or write.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  But um, he still had to succumb to this process that's coming for all of us. Like, I don't know, man. That was like, that, that just hit me. Like, we think, we want to look up at the sky and we want to explain how the cosmos began, and we can't even solve our own biggest problem? We can't solve our own biggest problem? Which is death, right? It's the, it's the biggest problem for all of us.

• 51:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  We can't figure out how to solve it? How to overcome it? Like, we don't think about this enough. Like, have you ever thought, why are you dying? Have you ever thought about that?

• 51:51Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  Like, like, not, like, I get it. Like, all of us, we understand death as, you know, we go along through this life, but and then something happens. We get hit by a car, one of our organs fail, cancer happens, whatever, and we say, "That killed us," right? And that thing did kill us, but your entire life is leading you to that point. Like, why do you have to die? Like, it's, it's by necessity. You must die. Why? What's killing you? What, what are you, what's killing you?

• 52:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, age. Your body stops reproducing correctly. Your cells don't reproduce correctly.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  So, why does that happen?

• 52:33Joe Rogan?

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• 53:15Joe Rogan?

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• 54:00Speaker 02

  What's causing that?

• 54:01Joe Rogan?

  Every animal, almost every animal on this planet has a timeline that it exists in. It's probably, it's probably a natural function of keeping a balance. Like all of nature has a balance. And I mean, can you imagine if mosquitoes lived 1,000 years? What a fucking pain in the ass that would be? No, they get a couple, but yeah, how long does a mosquito live? A week? How long does a fly live? A week? Good, because otherwise we'd be fucked. You know, a deer, a good deer, a good deer that's like the best days of its life. It's like 13 years, it's done. It's over, it's gonna, it's limping, it's gonna get torn apart by coyotes. Whatever gets it. Everything has a time. Because if it didn't, then there'd be too many people.

• 54:46Joe Rogan?

  There'd be too many animals.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  The balance would be.

• 54:48Joe Rogan?

  The balance would be all fucked up.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  That's, that's a great answer, man.

• 54:51Joe Rogan?

  The thing is, there's a lot of scientists that are working on that. And a lot of scientists that I've talked to that are treating aging like a disease. So instead of just accepting the fact like, oh, you're 50 now, things are slowing down. Like, well, why are they slowing down? And what can we do to reverse that?

• 55:05Speaker 02

  I love thinking along those lines, man. Like, yeah, I love that.

• 55:10Joe Rogan?

  At the very least, what it does is improves your performance radically as an older person. Improves your physical performance. Is what was, what people would be capable of naturally with no supplements 20, 30 years ago. It's a very different world today. Very, very, very different. And with all the different modalities, all the different things you could do like hyperbaric treatments, NMN supplementation, red light therapy, cold plunge, sauna. All these different things radically change the composition of your body and your overall metabolic health. Radically changes it. And then with hormone therapy and all the other different things that you can do. I mean, it's just a, just because of science and because of people figuring these things

• 55:53Joe Rogan?

  out, it's, it's a radically different world than it was in the past.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  But is, is there a solution? Like, is there a fix for death? Like, is anyone searching or even contemplating that?

• 56:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. David Sinclair's all over that. He's a guy from Harvard that we've had on the podcast a few times. That's his primary study. They're, they're treating aging as a disease and trying to figure out what different types of medication, what different types of therapies, what's the root cause of the cells aging and not reproducing correctly.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  It's an ugly thing, man.

• 56:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it gets rough, especially if you don't take care of yourself, you know? That's the rough one. When you see people that have been drinking their whole life and then they, they quit at 75 and you're like, it's a little late. You know, even torturing your body, forcing your body to process poison for decades.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:49Joe Rogan?

  You know, and, and also just living in cities alone. You knew, you were talking about that smell, that, that weird smell that you get in cities. That's fucking brake dust and tires and exhaust fumes.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  And doo doo.

• 57:02Joe Rogan?

  And doo doo. It's a little bit of doo doo. Not bad here. Go to San Francisco.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  I found a turd on the side of the trail today, a human turd. It was a terrible log too, man. Yeah. My wife went back and took a video of it. You might see it on YouTube in the next couple of days.

• 57:20Joe Rogan?

  Okay, your visit to Austin.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  But yeah, man, just sitting with him makes, makes me contemplate these, these things. And, and for me, obviously because of my worldview being shaped by scripture, it makes me go to scripture and bounce these questions off of the scriptures, you know? And, and even, it, um...

• 57:45Speaker 02

  I think it was powerful too, because you know, I'm sitting with a man who's important to me, who is bearing this burden of death, and by the way, he bore it well. It was amazing to me that I could go and sit with him and he would talk to me and take time to spend with me, even in the midst of this terrible process that he was going through. I told him, I said, "You could have just laid there on this bed and not said a word to anybody and nobody would have blamed you." You know, it's scary, it's, it's, you're, he couldn't sit still, you know, and, and, uh, cause he was in so much pain. It's, that, on cancer's rough, man.

• 58:23Joe Rogan?

  Pancreatic is bad.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's rough. But, but then, you know, he had these same questions that I'm thinking, like, "Why does this have to happen?" You know, and then, for me then to have to go and search the scriptures and then come to him with the scriptures and share the scriptures with him to, you know, give him some of the answers that he had, you know, it's like, I would read a scripture to him and he would say, cause again, Mr. Don had a, a strong faith in the message of what we call the gospel, uh, but he didn't know all the other stuff, because he couldn't read.

• 59:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 59:09Speaker 02

  So I would read a scripture to him and, and then he would say, "Read another one. Read another one." And I was see, it was the, it was the wildest thing, dude. I, I've never seen, I've never seen anything like it before. I've been, I've been following the Lord Jesus for, uh, 13 years now. I was reading these words off of the page, not even explaining them to him. I was just reading him these scriptures, and they were manifesting like, power in him. Like you could see, I, you, you witnessed a change in his expression

• 59:47Speaker 02

  and his, his attitude. It was like, these words I'm reading are manifesting power and hope. And...

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Like literal energy. Like, I would come over and read the scriptures to him, and he would been in bed for the last four days, wouldn't get up for anybody. I'd read the scriptures to him, and then next thing you know, we'd be out on the porch. Like, he'd get out of bed, and we'd go walk out on the porch. I'd have to help him walk, right? And his wife kept saying, "You're the best thing for him right now." I'm like, "No, you don't understand. It's not my presence, for somehow I'm reading him from these scriptures, and it's like manifesting some sort of power and hope in him." And it like would give him energy in some way. And I can't expla-- I've never seen it happen like, like I've never witnessed that before, you know?

• 1:00:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's probably even more profound because he can't read, so you're reading it to him?

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 1:00:47Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  Dude, it was wild, man. Like, and I would read these scriptures to him, Joe, and he would say, "Yeah, I understand that now." And like, we're reading complex things, like we're reading about the resurrection, like the bodily resurrection of all the saints at the second coming of Christ. And, you know, he asked me, one of the questions he asked me, "Has any, has anybody ever really explained to you what happens when we leave here?" You know, because he's wondering these things, like, "I'm about to, I'm about to depart this tent, buddy."

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  "What's about to happen?" And I'm like, "Well, the only answer I can give you, Mr. Don, has got to come from these scriptures." And so, and I would read these complex scriptures to him, 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, and 2 Corinthians, chapter 5, and he would, he would under, like, it would make sense to him in his mind more than my mind could comprehend the truth of what I was reading. Like, that was what was wild. It was like--

• 1:01:51Joe Rogan?

  Because of that stage in his life where he's taking it in.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  This veil between this realm and the next realm was getting thin. And he was taking in the truth of this word and processing it logically at a level that I can't process it, because this veil for us is still so thin, unless you hit that DMT, right?

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  Later. But, uh, but right. And so I'm witnessing, it was wild, dude. And, and too, like crazy things happened, like when I'd sit with him, like every, you know, couple hours, I'd get up and go check in with his wife or something. And, and we had a camera in, in the room with him. And, uh, we could watch what he was doing. And when I would walk out of the room, you give it a few minutes and you would see him start to look above him. And he was, he would be reaching like this for stuff above him. And like, we didn't know what he was doing. We never even asked him. I wish I would have asked him, like, Mr. Don, what are you seeing? Like, what are you reaching for?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  Well, then back when I would come back in the room with him, he would stop doing it. Um, and then toward the end there, he had a stroke. He was paralyzed, one, his whole left side of his body was paralyzed. And so he was just, you know, he couldn't sit up or do anything. Uh, and then finally, at the very end, when he passed away, he literally sits up out of, he sits up erect in his, out of his hospital bed, reaches both of his hands straight up like this, and then lays back down and departs the tent.

• 1:03:47Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  So I started researching this. What, what the crap is going on here?

• 1:03:54Joe Rogan?

  God, I wish you asked him what he was reaching for.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  You, you watch, there are, you, the, I found this hospice nurse on Instagram. I don't remember her name. But she's, she's like posting all these videos of people doing this exact thing. They're, and they're reaching for stuff and, and she's a hospice nurse.

• 1:04:14Joe Rogan?

  Did you save it? Do you have it on your phone?

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  I, I don't, I don't have it. Uh, I don't remember. It's a, she's got a lot of following. She's got a big following, just look up.

• 1:04:24Joe Rogan?

  Jamie will probably find it.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Hospice nurse on Instagram or whatever. But she posts all these videos of these people.

• 1:04:29Joe Rogan?

  Is this her?

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  They're like calling out, I don't know, that's not her, but this is another one. That's not the one I watch.

• 1:04:40Speaker 05

  One of the death reach.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  It's a very common thing and they're calling out a lot of times the names of loved ones that have passed before them. They're seeing something like the they're seeing into the other realm. Oh, it's that lady on the far right over there. That's the one I watch. She's a little crazy, but I'm gonna go ahead and tell you, she puts out some wild stuff, man. This is common stuff, man.

• 1:05:06Joe Rogan?

  What's her name, Jamie? It says below hospice nurse Penny.

• 1:05:12Speaker 06

  When they're able to tell us what they're seeing, when they're able to tell us about these visions, they're almost always above them or up in the corner of the room. But sometimes as they get closer to the end of life and they're no longer able to communicate, we start seeing them reach into the air. So I'm convinced that when they are reaching into the air, they are reaching towards those people who they love, who have died before them.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  This woman's not a believer in, as far as I know, I don't think, I don't know what her, you know, what, how her worldview is, is on in terms of what happens after this, but she's just sitting here showing you saying, hey, this happens.

• 1:05:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  We can't figure out why.

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  We can't figure out what's going on. Obviously for me, when I see that happening, when Mr. Don sits up in the bed, even though he's literally paralyzed by a stroke. He sits, it's an impossibility. He sits up in his bed and reaches both hands in the air and then lays down and departs the tent.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  What do I, I have to believe that like his transportation had arrived.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 1:06:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  And to witness that, how does that not like strengthen?

• 1:06:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  You're witnessing something that's tangible. It's like, how does that not strengthen at least your faith? That there is something coming after this, you know what I mean?

• 1:06:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's so many stories. And the thing is, people have this arrogant assumption, and this is a lot of based on academics and science and this this belief that we have all the answers to to reality, when we don't even really understand consciousness. We don't. Consciousness is a massive mystery. So the this idea that we've got it solved, and when I when I hear people say, when you die, that's it, it's over. Like, how do you know? You're just saying this. You're just saying this, that that is as much of a belief system as any religion. This this belief in something that you have no evidence of whatsoever, but there's so many anecdotal stories

• 1:07:34Joe Rogan?

  of people with near death experiences, including Sebastian Junger. Do you know who he is?

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  I've heard the name.

• 1:07:40Joe Rogan?

  Brilliant journalist, he is a great author, has written some incredible books. He did Restrepo, right? A documentary about the war. And he's just an amazing, interesting, very, very intelligent guy. And the last time he was on the podcast, he was telling us a story about he had a medical emergency. Some sort of was like a an artery burst, right, Jamie? Something inside of his abdomen? And he was bleeding out on the inside and he was dying. And he got to the hospital and had this near death experience that like very, very vivid experience,

• 1:08:20Joe Rogan?

  interacting with his father, like just beyond anything that he would have ever comprehended and came back with a completely different perspective on life and death and like what this is and where that there is something else. There's something out there. And people that have had near death experiences or died and been resuscitated, they come back with the same fucking story over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's not, there's not a lot of variation. There's different interpretations of what they're seeing, but it all fits within the same framework. It all fits within a framework that this is, there's something there.

• 1:08:58Speaker 05

  Did you see the video of this kid a couple of weeks ago?

• 1:09:00Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:09:01Speaker 05

  He's having a wild experience where he sees Jesus, he sees his dead father.

• 1:09:05Joe Rogan?

  Come on, man.

• 1:09:05Speaker 05

  Says it's beautiful.

• 1:09:06Joe Rogan?

  Why is this kid?

• 1:09:07Speaker 06

  I miss my mom. My hair case.

• 1:09:09Speaker 05

  I think he was sick and he's coming out of surgery. I don't know the exact story on what was happening to him.

• 1:09:15Speaker 06

  Hi, Jesus.

• 1:09:19Speaker 05

  This video goes on long, it's a 10 minute video, but.

• 1:09:22Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:09:26Speaker 06

  He's in a dream, he's dreaming.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's dreaming all right, he's seeing into a different, he's seeing into the next realm.

• 1:09:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Speaker 06

  I want this hot chicken.

• 1:09:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You could dismiss that, you could dismiss that if you wanted to.

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can, you can, man, but look, man.

• 1:09:44Joe Rogan?

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• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  And I don't even need all these signs and wonders. Like, I don't even need all that, man. I mean, it's great when you get the opportunity to witness things. Like, I got to witness with my friend, Mr. Don, and just see his faith and see that the Word manifests power in him. Like, it's great when you get to see it, but you can get too carried away with all that stuff, too. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know, man. You know, I'm wondering, Joe, if the Almighty ain't calling you.

• 1:12:36Joe Rogan?

  Calling me how? On the phone?

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Calling you, man.

• 1:12:40Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean? In what way?

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  I'm just wondering. I think a lot of people are wondering what the Almighty is doing,

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  what he's working in you.

• 1:12:55Speaker 02

  See, Scripture is dripping with something that's called election.

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  A lot of people get mad about me talking about this, but this, this truth that we will never choose God, the Almighty, we will never choose to believe. As a matter of fact, Scripture actually says over and over again, the, the whole message of the cross is foolishness. It's foolishness. I mean, seriously? Some dude died on a cross? What does that represent to man? That represents weakness? That represents defeat? That represents death? You're gone.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  The, the message of the cross is foolishness to man. We will never choose to believe in the message of what we call the gospel. That is, that Jesus Christ died on the cross according to the Scriptures. He was buried and that He rose again by His own power according to the Scriptures. That's foolishness. And the only way that we can or will ever believe that, like truly place our faith in that and everything that's contained in that statement right there, because there's a lot there.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  You could literally spend the rest of your life meditating on that right there, the gospel, the what was done on the cross and by way of the resurrection of Christ. You would never get to the end of it. You would never comprehend everything. You would never search it to its bottom. You will never believe that. And the only way that you can believe that is if the Almighty, in His grace...

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  Basically makes you alive spiritually. Because these things are spiritually discerned. They're not logically discerned. They're foolishness to man. These things must be spiritually appraised. And so the Almighty by His grace makes you alive, literally spiritually alive. So that then you can discern the truth of not only the gospel, but everything, the totality of what is contained in Scripture. It's called the doctrine of election.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  And so when I say, "I wonder if the Almighty's calling you," what I mean is I wonder if you are one of the Almighty's elect.

• 1:15:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:15:55Joe Rogan?

  That's a lot.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  And if you are, you better hold on to your britches, son.

• 1:16:03Joe Rogan?

  I oftentimes wonder what's going on and why me? Yeah.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  You must, man. You must.

• 1:16:09Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't make sense.

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  You must. And I hate, you know, that's a personal thing, man. And I don't, I hope you don't take that as any disrespect.

• 1:16:17Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  It's just, um, for me, seeing, it's odd how much we have in common. Seeing what, what a special human being you are. Like, it's exciting for me to be able to hope that the Almighty is indeed calling you. Like, that's exciting, dude. Like, I pray, like, literally, I prayed for you last night. Like, I, I literally, on your behalf, I beg the Almighty to...

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Basically make you alive spiritually so that you could have discernment and be able to appraise these things that are in scripture that have seemed like foolishness for so long to you. You know what? They seem like foolishness for me to me for a long, long time, dude.

• 1:17:14Joe Rogan?

  What changed?

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  We're talking about a bunch of wild stuff, man.

• 1:17:19Joe Rogan?

  Can I take you back while we're in the middle of this? I'd like to take you back to like how you got on this journey of being a podcaster and then to that. Because I want to know like, what is the transition from the SEALs to becoming this guy who's very outspoken on YouTube and starts putting these videos out and things get interesting and then you very, very religious and, and spreading that in your YouTube as well. Like, how did this whole journey get started for you?

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  Well, I had, I decided I wanted to become a SEAL because I wasn't really good at anything else in life and I, you know, didn't want to go back to school and all that stuff. That's a whole long story, but I decided I wanted to do that. I finally, I went to join the Navy. They disqualified me, sent me back home after boot camp, wouldn't let me go to BUDS, told me I never would be able to become a SEAL because I had a pericardial cyst on my heart, seven centimeter cyst on my heart. You can look it up. Research Navy SEAL pericardial cyst. You can read the whole medical journal. I'm the only one. Came back home, paid for my own heart surgery as a civilian, showed back up in the Navy, less than a year later, made it

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  all the way through SEAL training unscathed.

• 1:18:36Joe Rogan?

  So what did they have to do? They have to remove the cyst?

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, they had to cut my chest open and take a big old cyst off my heart.

• 1:18:41Joe Rogan?

  How big is the, did they have to open your ribs, the whole deal?

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  About from here to here.

• 1:18:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so they go through the ribs?

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, they peeled my peck up, peeled it up, cut me open right there, went in there and took that cyst off.

• 1:18:51Joe Rogan?

  How long did it take to recover from that?

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  Took me about a year. I was back in the Navy about a year after that surgery. You know, but, but I, if, if it wouldn't have been for that, I wouldn't have made it through SEAL training, man. I didn't even know how to swim, dude. I didn't know how to swim.

• 1:19:05Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  I, I, I was the most unlikely person to ever make it through SEAL training, okay? Hands down.

• 1:19:13Joe Rogan?

  Did you have any background in physical fitness?

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:19:16Joe Rogan?

  Nothing?

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  Lord, no, I didn't, man. It took me, it took me two or three months to pass a mile and a half run.

• 1:19:23Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Made it through SEAL training, all this and that, good stuff. I had a very colorful career. Uh, started off real good, got real bad. I mean, I've been through it all. I've been in, in SEAL training at the end of our BUDs prep phase, you know, I was awarded the Hard Charger Award, you know, everybody selected me. The instructor cadre said, you're the one that's gonna make it. I was actually the only one to ever receive that award to make it through that training pipeline. Everyone else they had selected up until that point all quit. But they selected me not based on my physical abilities, but based on the fact that I had had a dang heart surgery

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  just to have a chance to toe the line, to try something that everybody quits anyways.

• 1:20:10Joe Rogan?

  So did you train for the SEAL training? Did you like give yourself enough time to get physically fit?

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  After that heart surgery, when I went in the first time, I could barely pass the physical standards test that I needed to pass to get the SEAL contract. If I would've went straight through and wouldn't have had that heart surgery, there's no way I would've made it. I wouldn't have been able to meet the physical standards once I actually got to BUDs. There's no way. But when I had that heart surgery, and then I finally got to where I could, you know, okay, man, I wa- at that point, I wanted it so bad because I had to go through all that. You see what I'm saying? I didn't want it that bad until I had to go through all that pain and, and fear and have my chest cut open and all this crap.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  But man, when I came out the other end of that, like I said, man, I was like a game rooster, man. It was like you look into the eye of a game rooster and he's got one burning hot desire is to fight. I mean, you a man appreciates combat sports. You ought to go watch a cockfight one day. I mean, just, that's what I had. I just had this burning hot desire to, for this thing. Nothing was gonna stop me. Made it all the way through. Man, I had a lot of ups and downs in my time in the teams. That's a whole, that's a three hour long story, but. We got plenty of time. Basically, man.

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  I, I got to my SEAL team and they had slotted our entire team to, uh, cover down on Africa and a couple other European countries.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  And, uh, I got so pissed. Cause I'm like, there's a war happening. Like that's the reason I joined. Like, everybody that joined wants to go and fight in this war. And here now I'm wound up at this place that's, you know, not gonna go where everybody wants to go. I got so hateful. And, uh,

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  through the course of a couple of years, I just got involved in all manner of what I would call sin. All manner drunkenness, uh, sleeping around with women, hurting people on purpose. Hateful, terrible person. I didn't love anybody. And, uh, the, the, the whole down, what, what the downfall of it is, I was overseas, I was on a, and we had a range day. The night before I had went out and just burned it down, son. I had no business going to the range that day. I'm gonna go ahead and tell you.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  But what do you do? You get up and go to the range, right? I'm sitting over on the range messing with my gun, pretty out of it. And I have a negligent discharge. And the guy that's standing beside me is my gunner's mate. And it barely skims him in the side of his leg. It was pointed down, thank God, pointed down. That happened. And that was the thing that like. Like stopped me in my tracks like holy crap Chad if you keep going the way that you're going you're gonna kill somebody you know what I mean I mean I was involved in all manner of sin buddy stopped me right there I had to go through a trident review

• 1:23:45Speaker 02

  board a disciplinary review board a captain's mask the whole nine yards luckily I had a good enough reputation up to that point that I had guys that that vouched for me specifically my sea daddy Jake Hudman he he rode a whole long thing Chad's Chad's done well he's this is you know this and that and they presented that and the Navy let me stay in keep my trident well went back home moved in with some lesbians still continuing on this this path or this just trajectory of just ugliness just hatefulness you know what I mean but I had kinda started hiding it a little more you know while I was at work I was like okay if I'm gonna have

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  to go to work I'm gonna have to square myself away a little bit um you know tell you how hateful I was this man Jake Hudman my sea daddy he uh um he started struggling with alcoholism shortly after I had that big mistake well I got back in the platoon and they told us they said well you know Jake's struggling with alcoholism we're sending him off to this rehab program they said uh just leave him alone well remember I told you I can forget people exist I just forgot he existed a couple months later he killed himself that's what

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  kinda friend I was that's what kinda person I was here's this guy who that's the kinda person that I still am sometimes today what a what there is there's literally nothing good in me I'm convinced of that here's this man who had poured so much into me literally trained me up taught me the ways of war it's on account of his mentorship probably that I was able to stay alive throughout the course of my career and I just turned my back on him when he was going through the hardest time of his life he kills himself

• 1:25:46Speaker 02

  I don't ever get to make that up. I just ignored him. Uh, that's the kind of, does this describe to you the type of person that I was?

• 1:25:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:56Speaker 02

  That's pretty bad, ain't it, brother? I mean, that's pretty bad. That's pretty ugly.

• 1:26:01Joe Rogan?

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• 1:26:46Joe Rogan?

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• 1:27:30Joe Rogan?

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• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  So I get back in the platoon, get ready, deploy again.

• 1:27:44Speaker 02

  I'm keeping my wickedness under control, you know, outwardly, but it's still all there, man.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  Well, we go up to Tunisia, North Africa, and Arabs attacked the embassy up there. When all that Benghazi and that stuff went down. It happened all over North Africa. So we went up there, re-secured the embassy. We came back, we left there and came back to Germany to rejock our equipment because that mission was over in Tunisia. Came back to Germany to rejock and then we were going out to Nigeria. And while we were in Germany,

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  the only way for me to tell you this in just simple terms is we were staying in a barracks that was inhabited by some sort of demon.

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  And that is, that was the genesis of my conversion, of me being made aware that, okay.

• 1:28:50Joe Rogan?

  So when you say it's inhabited by a demon, like in what way?

• 1:28:53Speaker 02

  So I was in there with a couple of other guys. I wish I would have wrote all this down.

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  I was laying in bed one night in this place. We had, we, we, this, there was nobody else in this building. It was just me and a couple, there were me and a guy in one room and two other guys in the room across the hall there. Okay?

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  Well, I'm laying in bed and I, and all of a sudden I'm jolted awake by something that hits my door. And I lay in bed for maybe 30 seconds and while I'm laying there listening, I can hear some strange voices echoing up and down the hall of this building that we're in. And so immediately I get up, open the door, walk out, nobody's out there. Walk around, nobody's in the building. Go in my buddy's room beside me, they're both passed out. But it scared me, dude. I was like, what on earth is this? It scared me.

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  And, um, these things, these things would, like the, the oven would be turned on like, uh,

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  These bumps and noises and but but more than all of that, there became this this oppressive feeling of of like evil in this place. Uh, and the guys that I were with, that I was with in there, they started getting freaked out about it, too. We called our senior chief, who had been staying there before us. It was just like an old, empty place that guys would come and stay in for a few nights before they left out. We called our senior chief, like, hey, man, did you have any strange experiences in this place? He was like, oh, yeah. Yeah, there's some, there's something in there.

• 1:30:49Speaker 02

  And, uh, so, but but like, I remember walking into this place and I would, there was a stairwell. I would walk up the first flight of stairs and then there would be a second flight that cut back. And there was like a landing up there because we were staying on the second deck. And, uh, like I would, you know, as a hunter, like, how you have that sense when something is like staring at you? Like you would, I would feel this thing staring at me up there on that landing and I would fully expect to turn around and see some sort of something up there. And I never saw it in physical form. We started doing this research online about, you know, looking at these forums and stuff about this place that we were,

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  you know, in and finding all kinds of other stuff about it. I'm like, well, whatever is going on here, uh, I can't sleep at night. Like, I don't want to be in that place because it's it's literally scaring me that bad.

• 1:31:50Speaker 02

  And, um, the sanity check was the dudes I was with were getting freaked out, too.

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  And like, I wish I would have talked to them and written down the things that they were specifically experiencing. Do you remember any of them? So that I would, I, it's been so long ago, man. Like, the experience that I had was so powerful. Like, that just is the one thing that sticks in my mind. But I remember the two guys across the hallway, one of them had to leave. They were going out to a different site and that dude, the other dude was left in that room by himself. He moved across the hallway to stay in the room that me and my guy were with. Because he didn't want to, he didn't want to stay in that room by himself. Jesus. And so, um,

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  I was literally at my wits' end with this. Like, I was so, like, I couldn't sleep at night. How long did you stay there for? This would have probably went on for about a week. Yeah, this probably would have went on for about a week. Uh, we were there for maybe two weeks. Um, and so I called my little brother at my wits' end. Because again, I just told you the type of person that I was. I had no, um, you know, interest in spiritual matters. I didn't believe in demons or spiritual warfare or God or any of that, right? But I'm like, here now I have encountered something that seems very real to me.

• 1:33:17Speaker 02

  And, and it's, it's not in this realm. Here's some sort of entity that I don't know how to combat. I called my little brother, because I knew my little brother was a Christian. And I said, "Well, here's one of these Christians. They'll have a little bit of, maybe a little bit of insight on this spiritual stuff that might be going on here." He said, "Well, man," I said, "I ain't never ran into nothing like that." He said, "I'm gonna put you in touch with my, my pastor of my local church here." They were real close. Um, his name's James Cordell. James called me the next day, and I told him what all was going on. Well, he acted like it was no big deal. I said, "No, buddy." I said, "You don't understand."

• 1:34:01Speaker 02

  I said, "There's something in here. I don't know what it is." He said, "Ain't no big deal." He said, "Put me on speakerphone." He said, "I'm gonna walk aroun-" I, he said, "Walk around this building in, up and down the hallways." And he said, "I'm gonna pray." And I'm, I put him on speakerphone. I'm walking around this building, up and down the hallways, in my room. He's praying against this thing in the name of Jesus Christ.

• 1:34:31Speaker 02

  He says, alright, now, we had a little kitchenette there. He said, you have some olive oil in there. I said, yeah, we got a bottle. He said, take just a little dab of that olive oil and just dab it on the top of your door frame there. So I did it. Joe, I'm thinking the whole time, this is so stupid. But what else do I do in this situation? Let's try this, right? Let's give this a shot. And I dabbed that little olive oil up there and we get off the phone. We went, I leave, go to work. We come back that evening, wind down. Total, like, peace had returned to this place. Like, I did no longer heard or

• 1:35:16Speaker 02

  felt or was experiencing any sort of fear or anything. Like, it all was gone. Like, all of a sudden, it was just like, oh, okay, now I'm just in another little barracks room here, like... Did the other guys feel the same way? So, this is what's funny. I didn't tell the other guys that I did that. And, because they were all gone when I walked around with this crazy man on speakerphone. It's embarrassing. I mean, in a certain sense, it's still embarrassing to tell that story today. Again, this is foolishness, man. Like, you're asking me to tell this story on this platform? Like, this,

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  it's hard, you know what I mean? Because who's gonna believe this? Like, but I don't care. I'm just telling you, like, what I remember that experience as. And it impacted me so much that it changed the trajectory of my entire life. And the next morning, we woke up, and my buddy woke up in the room. He said, what's all over the door? And I looked up, and that little dab of olive oil had somehow, like, dripped down and covered the entire door.

• 1:36:33Speaker 02

  Of the room that we were staying in and you could see it toward the bottom of the door like the drips, like the whole door was like shiny. And he said, "What's all over the door?" And I said, "Don't worry about it, man. I don't know what the crap that is." Cause I was so embarrassed to tell him that I had done that. But it was just a dab of all of it? It was just literally a dab of all of it. I don't, I don't even know where that fits into the, the whole experience. I don't even know where or how that fits in. I don't even know what this thing was or why this thing would have been attached to a place.

• 1:37:14Speaker 02

  Like, I don't understand that, man. I, I don't, and, and I'm, again, I'm not like big on this whole spiritual warfare thing.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  But after that happened, all that happened,

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  no more nothing in this place. I said, "I have got to get my hands on a, on scripture and figure out more about

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  this figure, Jesus, who I heard this man praying in the name of, right? Cause there's, obviously there was some power like being wielded there by the name of Jesus in prayer." And so I did. I got my hands on a Bible. I started reading in the book of Matthew. I began my, again, the, through this, this, this was obviously the experience that the Almighty had chosen to call me out of darkness into the marvelous light of His truth. Opened the Bible. I had seen the Bible before. I had, you know, heard it read. I had even read it before, uh, in the, in the past, but it nev-, it was never anything that meant

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  any, I couldn't understand it. You know what I mean? Like, what, what the crap is this trying to say to me here? Right. I began to read in the book of Matthew and I began to, uh, well, I, for the first time in my life, I realized how all of that applied to me as the hopeless, wicked, ugly, depraved human being that I, I, like, my mind was awakened to my own state.

• 1:39:01Speaker 02

  I didn't realize how ugly and depraved I was. Like when I let my, when I passed up on my friend and he killed himself, like I didn't think nothing of that.

• 1:39:14Speaker 02

  I just had this, this revelation of who I was and why, why I so needed

• 1:39:26Speaker 02

  something to save me from that.

• 1:39:31Speaker 02

  And when I had that revelation, literally by the grace of God, opening my, making me spiritually, spiritually alive, able to discern the scriptures. When I had that revelation, I read about Jesus, his life, his death, why he died according to the scriptures, his resurrection, what that means for me.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  I, it changed everything. Like literally, I was made a new creature

• 1:40:09Speaker 02

  overnight. It's the greatest miracle that God the Almighty could ever work is taking somebody like me who was literally so useless,

• 1:40:22Speaker 02

  making me alive,

• 1:40:26Speaker 02

  making me a brand new creature, waking up the next day

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  and being completely changed in how I see the world, how I see myself, how I see the words on these pages, how I see the creator of the cosmos.

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  That's a miracle.

• 1:40:52Speaker 02

  Like nothing else that I have experienced in life produced that amount of change nearly instantaneously. And I'll never forget walking down into the little platoon hut like the next day after having this revelation of the gospel and what it means for me and who I am. And like,

• 1:41:20Speaker 02

  Dude, I didn't...

• 1:41:23Speaker 02

  It's crazy, man. It literally changed my desires. Like, that's the miracle, right? Like, how do you change your desires? How do you internally change your desires?

• 1:41:37Speaker 02

  Like, I didn't... I had no appetite for pornography anymore. I had no appetite for the foul language that I used. Like, I had no appetite for gossip.

• 1:41:53Speaker 02

  Overnight? Literally overnight. Like, my literal desires were changed.

• 1:42:00Speaker 02

  And that was the, ultimately, more so than the whole thing that was going on in the barracks and the guy saying the prayer and this thing leaving. Like, that experience of being made a new creature? And the realization of what on earth just has happened to me? That was the thing.

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  And is the thing that I cling to so tightly. Like, nothing else could have produced that type of change in me, but the grace of God and the revelation that He's given me of who I am and who He is. And then, as you go, this has been, from then to now, just a long and arduous, sometimes joyful, but process of sanctification, essentially.

• 1:43:10Speaker 02

  One of the things that I pray most often is for the Holy Spirit to conform me into the likeness and image of Jesus Christ at all cost. At all cost. Well, first time I prayed that, that was hard to pray, man.

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  You read about Jesus in Isaiah 53. What's it say about him? "He was a man of sorrow, well acquainted with grief."

• 1:43:39Speaker 02

  Come for me into the image of Christ. And that process of sanctification is ongoing. My understanding of the scriptures is ongoing and progressive even still to this day and hopefully to the very day that I depart this tent. It's everything to me, man. Like it's, it's, no, no, no, no. It's literally everything to me. Some people say, well, Chad, doesn't, sometimes don't you have moments of doubt? Well, yeah, I'd be a liar. Think about what I believe.

• 1:44:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:24Speaker 02

  Like, sometimes don't you have moments of doubt? Yeah, I have moments of doubt sometimes. Yeah, for sure, man. But what I realize is that if I could possibly depart from this faith that I have in the Almighty, if I could possibly even depart from that faith, what would I have? I would have nothing. Like, what's, what's the, what's the point?

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  This is the fascinating aspect of this that an atheist needs to take into consideration. You, what you're talking about had a real result. This belief and faith has had a real transformative result on you as a human being. Now, if there was nothing to this, if this is all nonsense, and there was a method that you could use, just some sort of a way of viewing the world that would instantaneously change the way you see yourself and see everything, wouldn't that method be explored? And wouldn't that be taught?

• 1:45:42Joe Rogan?

  Like, if this is the thing that brought you to who you are now, that's a real thing. Regardless of whether or not anybody wants to believe in Jesus Christ, or believe in the resurrection, or believe in the gospels, it works.

• 1:46:02Joe Rogan?

  Like this, that's the thing about Christians, like real Christians, and I've been very fortunate to meet a bunch of them. I had a weird journey in religion myself because I went to Catholic school when I was in first grade and it kinda ruined me. They were horrible. Yup. This nun, Sister Mary Josephine, I don't remember anybody from when I was six years old, but I remember that bitch. She was so fucking mean, man. And just the experience, the way they treated children, it was so fear-based and I was like, this is not God. God has nothing to do with this. This is people. This is people. And it kind of set a tone for my life. You know, where I dismissed

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  any, any notions that there was some sort of truth in these religions. But the more I've explored, not just Christianity, but many different religions. People are trying to document a truth. And it's very hard to decipher through the tongue of man. It's very hard to decipher. When, when human beings write things down and human being gives statements on things, you have to always take into consideration human nature. Human beings are not that accurate in how they depict things. And then you have the problem with translations. Truth, brother. You have the problem with it going from ancient Hebrew to Latin and Greek and to all these different languages.

• 1:47:32Joe Rogan?

  And then you have the problem with spiritual narcissism. So you have the people that are the conveyors of the message who take on these powers themselves that are above normal men and control people by, you know, but before Martin Luther came around and made a phonetic version of the Bible, there's, it's very few people could read and very few people could read Latin. They didn't know what it said. So you had to rely on the priest to tell you everything. Yup. When people started being able to translate these things into different languages, it's wonderful, but also something's probably missing.

• 1:48:07Joe Rogan?

  You know, my friend Rick Strassman, he's a scholar. He's the guy who wrote that book, the DMT, the spirit molecule. He did these, um, these slow drip studies, these FDA approved studies on, uh, DMT with, with people, with patients.

• 1:48:24Speaker 02

  I'm very interested in that.

• 1:48:25Joe Rogan?

  He's a fascinating guy. Well, he learned ancient Hebrew just so that he could read the Bible in its native tongue.

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:34Joe Rogan?

  And it took him 16 years to do that.

• 1:48:37Speaker 02

  I believe it.

• 1:48:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's a

• 1:48:38Speaker 02

  What an endeavor.

• 1:48:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, fascinating guy. I think they were trying, they were writing something down. One of the things that I learned from Wes Huff, Wesley Huff, who's a biblical scholar, who's been on the podcast, he told me that the, the book of Isaiah, when they find it in, they found a version of it in the Dead Sea Scrolls, that is identical, word to word, for a version of it that they found a thousand years later.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  That's pretty miraculous.

• 1:49:07Joe Rogan?

  A thousand years.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  And not, not only that, but, but, but what about the content of Isaiah?

• 1:49:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:49:14Speaker 02

  What about Isaiah 53, as it describes the suffering servant, how it, it literally outlines the life and death of Jesus Christ, and it was written, what, 400 years?

• 1:49:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:31Speaker 02

  Before the crucifixion? Like even the content of Isaiah, not only the accuracy of the, the, the translation and the accuracy over that span of time, when you compare copies, but even the content of it. How, how did this prophet write this thing about this person, and it was fulfilled perfectly, literally to a T, um, by the person of Jesus Christ hundreds of years later?

• 1:49:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's crazy.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  Um, so, and, and by the way, man, like, I'm not telling you or anyone listening to this, this, what, what we call testimony, like what, what the Lord's given me experientially in life to share with other people. I'm not telling you this to convince you of anything. Like, there's nothing that I can say to convince you. In the truth of the gospel, like I truly believe that. There's no, there's no words that I can use, there's no logic that I can apply. There's nothing that I or anyone else can say to convince you of this.

• 1:50:40Speaker 02

  And it goes back to what we started off in the conversation with of these things must be spiritually discerned. And it is by grace, God's grace, that we are made alive and able to discern the truth of these things. That's a hard, that's a hard thing to accept, man. Like that man is totally depraved and I can't say anything to convince anyone of the truth of these scriptures.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  But, but the scriptures are dripping, literally dripping with that very fact. That's, that's the interesting thing about, about the scriptures, they leave nothing for man.

• 1:51:23Speaker 02

  Like it's, it's almost the, the, the single thing that separates what's contained in the holy scriptures from other religious philosophy. It literally leaves nothing for man. What do you mean by that? Meaning there is nothing that you can do to be made righteous in the eyes of the Creator. There is nothing that you can do to save yourself. As a matter of fact, without the grace and the help of the Almighty, you can't even believe the truth.

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  You won't, you won't do it. You are, you are spiritually dead

• 1:52:13Speaker 02

  prior to regeneration. You see what I'm saying? It, when you're dead, if we had a dead man laying on the floor right here and I said, "Dead man, hearken unto my voice. There is a hospital a mile down the road. And if you'll get up and walk to that hospital, or you'll allow me to take you to that hospital, they'll shock you and bring you back to life." Is he gonna respond to that message?

• 1:52:44Speaker 02

  He's gonna lay there dead, right? Yeah.

• 1:52:49Speaker 02

  We're dead spiritually until we are made alive by the grace of the Almighty. It leaves nothing for man. Not a thread. It leaves me not a single thread that I can cling to. And then you look at the whole saga of Scripture. Well, what's this all about anyways? Let's take it all the way back to Genesis, all the way through Revelation and everything in between. The whole saga is to glorify the Son, Jesus Christ.

• 1:53:29Speaker 02

  What's the purpose in me even being saved? It's so that I can be presented to Christ as His bride. What do you mean by that? We, God's people, the whole purpose of our existence is for us to be presented to Jesus Christ as His own people, who will glorify Him for all of eternity. It's to glorify the Son.

• 1:54:11Speaker 02

  The whole saga that was determined by the sovereign and immutable will of the Father. It can be changed. The whole saga, the only purpose of it all is to present and to present this, I can't say this word real well, peculiar. Peculiar. People to the Son as a bride, an offering to glorify the Son for all of eternity. The whole saga is to lift up and glorify Jesus Christ. It's the only purpose for me even being saved.

• 1:54:51Speaker 02

  Then you're convinced of this? Well, I think that...

• 1:55:05Speaker 02

  I'm not convinced of this because that's what I want to believe. Like, I'm convinced of this because I'm convinced of the truth of the Holy Scriptures. And again, when you look at the thing from a 30,000-foot view, I'm convinced of that, not because, why would I want to believe that?

• 1:55:29Speaker 02

  Why would I want to, if I wrote this story, would it not give me something to cling to? Would it not, if I wrote the story, would it not give me some other purpose than just being offered up as a bride to the glorification

• 1:55:50Speaker 02

  of the Son, Jesus Christ? Like,

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  if I wrote that story, wouldn't I write it differently than that? Because I'm man, right? I would leave myself something to cling to. Surely, this salvation means something more than just that I am part of this special people now, being offered up as a bride to Christ. Surely, there's something that I can do in this life, a choice that I can make, to believe in this? Like, surely, I have the power to make that choice.

• 1:56:31Speaker 02

  But if I had the power to make the choice to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, in and of myself, then that salvation would be coming from me. You see what I'm saying?

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  When you realize you don't even have the power of choice in you, you are dead. You will not choose it. When you realize you don't even have the power of choice...

• 1:57:00Joe Rogan?

  So you believe it has to be that this wisdom has to enter you somehow?

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  You are entered by what scripture calls the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God who comes and dwells in you. And that is the entity that makes you spiritually alive and gives you the ability to appraise the scriptures, essentially spiritual things, because before that, it's foolishness.

• 1:57:29Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever paid any attention to the Shroud of Turin? Have you ever looked into it at all?

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  I've just seen it pop up, you know, as I scroll through.

• 1:57:39Joe Rogan?

  Well, they used to dismiss it because they used to say they did a carbon date on it and it was only 500 years old. But they've since made some revisions to that. And there's a lot of people that believe because of the wear of the cloth, the age of the cloth. And I think they've done subsequent tests that place it around 2,000 years old, which is really fascinating. The other thing that's fascinating is they didn't even know what the image completely was until someone took photographs of it and then looked at the negatives. And in the negatives, then you get this image of Jesus. Not just Jesus, but with the scars and the markings on his back,

• 1:58:22Joe Rogan?

  the part of his body where he's pierced, the piercings on the wrists. And they really do believe that this thing is 2,000 years old. And the other thing that's strange is they have no explanation as to how that image was created. They think that image was created somehow from some sort of a burst of energy. It's not stained, it's not dyed, and it's not something that's easily reproduced, especially if you think about the timeline. If this is supposedly a forgery, like, how would they make an image that would only show up in a negative? And what would be the motivation to fake this in this manner? See if you can get some photos of what it looks like, Jamie.

• 1:59:03Speaker 02

  You know what I love about what you're saying, Joe? It's just, it's so amazing how the Almighty...

• 1:59:10Speaker 02

  Works in each of us differently.

• 1:59:14Joe Rogan?

  Like, look at this. This is, this image, if you see the original, see the originals to the left, like, they didn't, you know, they saw that and they're like, huh, what is this? But, once you look at it with the negative, show the negative again, the black and white? Once you see the negative of it, see, make that larger, then it starts getting very strange. Cause you, you look at the, the piercings on the wrist and there's these blood stains in these areas. It's very strange.

• 1:59:45Speaker 02

  That's wild, man.

• 1:59:46Joe Rogan?

  And it's a very large piece of cloth. I think it's, uh, I think it wrapped his entire body and so it was like seven feet long. And then they folded it. So it's his back and his front. So he was inside of this thing.

• 2:00:03Joe Rogan?

  And this is the image.

• 2:00:04Speaker 05

  I think it was debunked recently.

• 2:00:06Joe Rogan?

  Was it debunked again?

• 2:00:07Speaker 05

  I think so.

• 2:00:07Joe Rogan?

  What'd they say now?

• 2:00:08Speaker 05

  I, I remember seeing something about it. They found some sort of processes that have been around for a few hundred years. That do some sort of this like negative transfer.

• 2:00:18Joe Rogan?

  Right, but did they know that 2,000 years ago?

• 2:00:20Speaker 05

  Oh, that's right. I think the carbon dating has been read, readjusted to.

• 2:00:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really? What are they saying now?

• 2:00:25Speaker 05

  I mean, I typed in debunked and I was looking through a few articles.

• 2:00:28Joe Rogan?

  See, there's people that believe and there's people that don't believe and it gets weird. It gets weird because there's a lot of people that want to debunk things. A new research shows that the carbon dating of the shroud is fake.

• 2:00:41Joe Rogan?

  Findings that it was the carbon dating that was fake, not the shroud. This is a central conclusion.

• 2:00:46Speaker 05

  There's a few articles about it being fake, but again, I don't, I mean, I don't know if they're 100% like this is fake or if they're just haters, you know?

• 2:00:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:00:55Speaker 02

  You know what's interesting to me about the body of Christ, the physical body, like, like is being transposed onto that? Shroud, whether it's real or not. Have you ever thought about this? If you think about going back to talking about death and why do we have to die? Why is it a necessity for all humans? Well, the scripture tells us that for a human, the reason that we must die is because of sin, right? That started with the very first sin of man and woman in the very beginning, right? Because scripture tells us that man was created to exist eternally in the beginning,

• 2:01:39Speaker 02

  the human, physical form. But when man sinned, a lot of things happened. Death, that's the moment, scripturally, that's when death entered the equation. So this sin is a big problem. Like, that is the genesis of death entering the equation and becoming a reality for all men. I wonder a lot what happened when that sin caused death in man. It's almost like it changed man's genetic makeup.

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  It's almost like man was created in the beginning to exist in a physical body eternally, meaning he had perfect genetics, right? He could exist, nothing decayed. He could continue on for all eternity. He also had the ability to be in the presence of the Almighty. In some way, the human brain could interact with the Almighty. But when sent into the equation, it's almost like man's genetic code was marred.

• 2:03:01Speaker 02

  And death entered the equation and we began to age. And it even, when I think about it along those lines, it's totally theoretical, by the way.

• 2:03:12Speaker 02

  That's how we inherit our sinful nature is because the result of sin actually changed the genetic makeup of the, of man's physical body. And therefore, by necessity, he now has to die because he ages. And also, we lost our ability to perceive the Almighty and to actually converse with Him. And we lost something in our brain.

• 2:03:39Speaker 02

  Right? That's why I wonder about that DMT stuff. We lost, like, we lost some, something in our brain that originally allowed us to see into this other realm and converse with this Almighty being. We lost the ability to do that. Because of sin. Which brings me to the body of Christ. The interesting thing about the body, physical body of Jesus Christ. He was the only man, according to Scripture, who ever fulfilled the law of God completely and perfectly. Which means His physical body, His literal physical body, was not affected by sin.

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  Which is the thing that is causing all of us to die by necessity.

• 2:04:29Speaker 02

  And I just wonder, if that physical body, if, if the body of Christ, if Christ would have grown to maturity, which He did, which was when, about when He started His ministry, was full adult maturity. I wonder if He would not have been crucified, if He could have lived in that physical body forever. If the aging process would have stopped and He would have never had to die because the effects of sin were not upon Him. The curse was not upon Him. And it makes me think about that body because they took His body off the cross, laid it in the tomb.

• 2:05:11Speaker 02

  When we die, our bodies begin to, uh, go through, um, decay very quickly. You've seen that, killing animals. You kill something, within a few hours, it starts to get kind of blowed up, stiff as a board. After about a day, it stinks, all nasty.

• 2:05:29Speaker 02

  He died, they put him in that tomb. He was there for three days. That body didn't decay.

• 2:05:39Speaker 02

  The spirit then re-entered that same body.

• 2:05:44Speaker 02

  And that body, that same body, rose up and eventually ascended into heaven. He took that body with him into this other realm.

• 2:05:56Speaker 02

  It just makes me wonder like what the human body was like in the beginning when we were created perfectly with this mental ability to interact with this other realm, converse with the Almighty. The, the absence of sin, in other words, our genetics were perfect? The human body was perfect? It would not die?

• 2:06:22Joe Rogan?

  So this is if you're taking the Old Testament absolutely and literally? And if that, if you do that, how do you, what do you think about evolution?

• 2:06:33Speaker 02

  Um.

• 2:06:35Speaker 02

  That's a great, that's a great-

• 2:06:36Joe Rogan?

  What do you think about-

• 2:06:37Speaker 02

  I've been thinking about evolution a little bit here lately.

• 2:06:39Joe Rogan?

  The various forms of humans that have been detected, including recently Denisovans, what was that one? Julians? What's that one? The giant, huge-headed people. They don't even know how big they were. They think they were quite a bit larger than us. They found multiple types of humans, obviously Neanderthals, but-

• 2:07:01Speaker 02

  Well, if you can't tell by now, I like to think about things.

• 2:07:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I do too.

• 2:07:04Speaker 02

  I love, I love, it's fun. It's fun, you know what I mean? Like, the whole thing I just talked about was like totally theoretical, like, I can't prove any of that, but when I think about evolution, um, the, one of the first things that's striking to me is how on earth...

• 2:07:23Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, consciousness is a big problem. You mentioned that earlier.

• 2:07:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:27Speaker 02

  But, but how on earth did we, as the beings that we are, or we could take any being on earth and use it as an example?

• 2:07:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:39Speaker 02

  How do we go through, how, how many millions, or do some say billions?

• 2:07:45Joe Rogan?

  Of life?

• 2:07:46Speaker 02

  Of years?

• 2:07:47Joe Rogan?

  Not for humans, but for life, yeah. What is life, what did, how long ago did life first appear on earth?

• 2:07:55Joe Rogan?

  So I think single cell doreisms is like

• 2:07:57Speaker 02

  Now, now

• 2:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Three billion years or something like that.

• 2:07:59Speaker 02

  Now, what I'm about to do here is I'm about to apply some country boy logic here, Joe.

• 2:08:03Joe Rogan?

  Here it goes. What does it say? 3.5 billion years ago?

• 2:08:06Speaker 02

  3.5 billion years

• 2:08:08Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:08:08Speaker 02

  From, from life to what we are as beings now. Now, look, are you ready for this country boy logic, son?

• 2:08:16Joe Rogan?

  I'd love to hear it.

• 2:08:19Speaker 02

  How on earth did we go through 3.5 billion years

• 2:08:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  of evolution and, and, and being shaped by our environment?

• 2:08:31Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  And here we are after 3.5 billion years and we can't stay around for more than about 75 years and everything around us can kill us? Like, if I, if I think about, now, again, country boy logic here. If I think a 3.5 billion year long process of an organism being shaped by its environment, I would like to hope it would produce something a little better

• 2:09:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think-

• 2:09:05Speaker 02

  than what we are today.

• 2:09:06Joe Rogan?

  What it's produced is pretty fucking extraordinary comparison to, in comparison to all the other animals.

• 2:09:12Speaker 02

  Inhuman, inhuman.

• 2:09:14Joe Rogan?

  In humans.

• 2:09:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:15Joe Rogan?

  Nothing, nothing is even close.

• 2:09:16Speaker 02

  But how, I mean-

• 2:09:17Joe Rogan?

  And then you have to think of how long humans have been around in this form, at least according to science. They believe it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 to 500,000 years, based on the fossil evidence. It could go further or back, probably go further back eventually. They'll probably figure it's like six or seven. But there's a timeline. There's a timeline when Homo sapiens existed and when they didn't exist before. And then there's a bunch of different forms of human. There's a bunch of different hominids. A bunch of, there's, you know, there's Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, there's, there's a ton of them. So what we've been able to achieve in this very, relatively speaking, when you think about 3.5 billion, which is a number that you can't really comprehend. You say it, but it's just-

• 2:10:02Speaker 02

  Oh, I agree.

• 2:10:03Joe Rogan?

  It's too big. It's too big to really wrap your head around. Think about the behavior characteristics that you can breed into your dogs in a short period of time.

• 2:10:11Speaker 02

  Now, now, I am, I am, I heartily- Agree and believe in adaptation.

• 2:10:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:18Speaker 02

  Hardly agree in, in, in, in different forms, drastically different forms of human.

• 2:10:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, look at just dogs. Just look at dogs. Your dog came from a wolf. Okay? I have, uh, two dogs. I have a golden retriever and I have a spaniel, this little puppy that we just got. And both of them also descended from wolves. And it's ridiculous. They have zero killer instinct. Other than squirrels, my dog Marshall who kills squirrels. But, and turtles. But he's, he's not a wolf. He's, he's some sort of a new thing that we've created through selection and breeding and.

• 2:10:57Speaker 02

  It's forced adaptation.

• 2:10:58Joe Rogan?

  Over time, it's a totally different animal, just like we are. We are a totally different animal than Neanderthal, a totally different animal to ancient man. We're, we're just different. We're different in some way. You go, and especially if you go way back to Australia, Pithecanin, and all these different animals that. These different hominids that were very primitive, much more ape-like than us. There's a path. You could see it. It's like, there's a lot of mysteries. The big one is the doubling of the human brain over a period of two million years. That's a crazy one.

• 2:11:31Joe Rogan?

  One of the things that I always wonder. When you're reading particularly the really old texts, when it gets into like the Dead Sea Scrolls, and it gets into the, the, the. The Old Testament and even stuff that's before that, it's like. What were they trying to remember? Because you gotta remember, before this stuff was even written down, it was an oral history for about a thousand years. What were they, what were they, what was the original story? And that's where I think the truth is. I think there's truth. I don't think these people were making up myths and fairy tales. I think that's, that's a silly way to think about it. I, I think it's much more likely that some.

• 2:12:11Joe Rogan?

  Immense events had happened over the course of human history. And these people were trying to document it with whatever limited ability to express themselves that they had at the time.

• 2:12:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:22Joe Rogan?

  There's something there. It's just the problem I always have with all religions is man. The tongue of man is human beings and our desire to. We, we use hyperbole. We exaggerate. We change times. We, we change, we, we, we write things that make ourselves look better than we should. History is written by the winners. It's very difficult to know, like, what was the genesis of it? What was, what was the original thing that they were trying to write down? But I think there's truth in the original thing.

• 2:12:59Speaker 02

  Man, you're headed in the right direction, Joe. When, when you said the problem you always have is with man.

• 2:13:04Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:13:05Speaker 02

  Man is indeed the problem, my friend.

• 2:13:08Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:13:08Speaker 02

  You are headed down the right path, man.

• 2:13:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, we are the problem, but we are also seeking solutions. People like you, people like me, people that want to be better people. And there's a lot of people out there that are listening to this. People that want a better world. They want a better society. And they recognize that there's, there's certain things that you can do, both to change your life and to inspire others. Like, that's, there's a reason for those instincts. They're not necessarily even self-serving. There, a lot of them are community-serving. And that's, in a way, self-serving. Because the more healthy your community is, the better you'll feel, the better your life will be. There's reward systems that are built into our, our tribal nature.

• 2:13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:53Joe Rogan?

  And there's a lot of good to that. And I think, like I said before, like, if you do follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, you will have a better life. If you believe it, you will, and you live by it, you will have a better life. But there's that weird jump that you have to make, right? There's the weird jump where you have to, you have to abandon this critical thinking and logical mind, and accept that there's an extreme value in living this way. And there's, it's not, it hasn't been around for all these, these years by accident.

• 2:14:36Joe Rogan?

  And I really do believe that at the origins, and it just, we all wish we could know. We could hear it. Like, that's the frustrating thing about it. This is all really the word of God. Like, "Hey, come back and give us a refresher course." How about, you know, like, maybe we're not bad, we just need to know.

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I'll tell you what, Joe, I should just let you talk the whole dang podcast, man, because you are so good at just summing stuff up and getting to the root of questions and things. And, you know, like, you know, you talked about that whole, that transition from just like, living it out to have a better life, to all of a sudden, like, placing your entire hope in this message of the gospel. Like, that's that transition that I was talking about, that you can't choose. You know what I mean? Like, so you're summarizing all of this so well, man. And it's interesting to me, too,

• 2:15:33Speaker 02

  that, you know, the Almighty has these plans for each of us, His sons and daughters, and He leads us each along this path to the ultimate revelation that we are searching for. But every path looks different. And it's so interesting to me to get to hear you speak this way, because He led me along this path that involved this spiritual warfare. What was I? I was a warrior. Like, I understood warfare. I understood encountering an enemy.

• 2:16:12Speaker 02

  And that's the story I told you, you know? He kind of led me to this ultimate revelation and to this regeneration along the lines of that. I have to believe that, and I have to hope that He is leading you along this path, specifically the way you're experiencing it, because that's how your mind works, man. Like, you're a master. You are intelligent. You understand things. You want things to be.

• 2:16:47Speaker 02

  Somewhat logical and orderly and, and you know, like the Shroud of Turin thing, or, or you know, any of these other artifacts, or the Dead Sea Scrolls, or, or something like, like, I can do without knowing about all that and be just fine. But according to the way the Almighty made you, maybe you can't do without all that stuff and be just fine. Cause you're different than me. You know what I mean?

• 2:17:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:14Speaker 02

  So I want you, man, it sounds so weird, cause I only, we just met. But like, I want you, man, to be competent in the direction that you're going with the questions that you ask and the way that you search. Cause it's beautiful, man.

• 2:17:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, thank you.

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's beautiful.

• 2:17:36Joe Rogan?

  I'm blessed with the time. I'm blessed with the time to ponder things.

• 2:17:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is, that is a very big blessing, man.

• 2:17:44Joe Rogan?

  It is, cause if you're too busy and your life is too overwhelmed with obligations and, and I have a lot of them. But fortunately for, for me, a lot of my job gives me time, gives me time to think.

• 2:17:57Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:17:58Joe Rogan?

  A lot of what I do and a lot of these conversations give me time to think and, and talking to different people with different perspectives, different life experiences and what they're trying to figure out. Cause we're all trying to figure out like, what is the purpose of this? Like, what am I doing here? And some of the most miserable anxiety ridden people that I know have no belief system. Some of the most miserable anxiety driven people that I know are atheists. And some of the most angry and bitter and attacking and condescending and atheists. And

• 2:18:35Speaker 02

  And also Christian.

• 2:18:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, there's a lot of Christians that way too. Yeah, there's, well, there's a lot of Muslims that way. There's a lot of Buddhists that way. There's a lot of people that are full of shit. And that's, you know, that's with everything. Like with that, you can get a good plumber, you can get a terrible plumber. You know, and it's just how human beings vary considerably.

• 2:18:54Speaker 02

  There's a philosopher that Martin Luther quotes in his book, The Bondage of the Will. And he, this philosopher says, "You can make anything out of anything." And he's talking about scripture. You can take the holy scriptures and you can make anything out of them that you want to make out of them.

• 2:19:13Joe Rogan?

  Right, if you want to interpret it in a completely different way.

• 2:19:16Speaker 02

  You can make anything out of anything and that's where we have these issues. You know, people, people love to point out the hypocrisy in the body of Christ. The visible church, Christians, people who proclaim to be Christians, the hypocrisy of Christians. And I would agree with you 100%. There is a lot of hypocrisy and a lot of what the visible church does is makes what they want to make out of the scriptures in order to control people. I mean, that, that, that, that's like huge, man.

• 2:19:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and there's also the issue of mega pastors. You know, when you think about a rock star, you think about someone who's selling out an arena, right? You think about a preacher, you think about like a Joel Olsteen type character, unfortunately, because they're more popular than any of the other ones. And so that becomes, that's a far, it's on the far spectrum, a fringe figure. You know, Rolls Royces, private jets, expensive suits, all of it's fucked. None of it makes any sense. None of it seems remotely Christian, right? To amass billions of dollars and enormous plots of land and have huge houses and you're flying around in 65 million dollar planes.

• 2:20:44Speaker 02

  Dude, you're a comedian, you gotta watch this dude named Jesse Duplantis.

• 2:20:48Joe Rogan?

  Is he a comic?

• 2:20:49Speaker 02

  Oh, no, he's a, he's like a mega preacher, but dude, you just gotta watch videos of this dude, man.

• 2:20:56Joe Rogan?

  Is he off the charts?

• 2:20:57Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, dude.

• 2:20:59Joe Rogan?

  You know, that's how Kinnison started. One of the greatest comedians, if not the greatest of all time, Sam Kinnison started out as a tent preacher.

• 2:21:08Speaker 02

  Well, you know, when people like to point out the hypocrisy of Christians, like, I get what you're saying, man, like, and how religion is used to control people.

• 2:21:19Joe Rogan?

  In some ways.

• 2:21:19Speaker 02

  You can make anything out of anything. But here's the thing, here's how I would respond to you as a Christian. Yes, you are right. I am a hypocrite. I am a liar. I am a cheater.

• 2:21:34Speaker 02

  Now, I'm not really a thief per se. I don't steal. I covet people. The things that they have, the things of this world. Um, I hate. Uh, I do all of those things. That's the point.

• 2:21:54Speaker 02

  Like, in that realization of who I am,

• 2:22:01Speaker 02

  it's, it's that, that revelation is the foundation of my clinging to Christ.

• 2:22:12Joe Rogan?

  Right. I see what you're saying.

• 2:22:14Speaker 02

  Like clinging to, do I want to do those things? No, I don't want to do those things. But there is something in me. There is a remnant in me

• 2:22:26Speaker 02

  that leads me to do things that I don't want to do. And the things that I want to do, I don't actually do.

• 2:22:38Speaker 02

  Now, not 100% of the time. Like, that's not my desire. But when I actually, when I do those things now, the difference is my response to them. So like, I told you how wicked I used to be. Well, you know, used to be, if I had an argument with my wife, you know, maybe I was rushing out the door and I would, maybe I yelled at my wife and I went out and got my truck and went to work. The rest of the day, I would be justifying my yelling at my wife. She deserved to be yelled at.

• 2:23:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:23:14Speaker 02

  Screw her, man. Like, she's in the wrong. Now, when I do those things, I yell at my wife, I walk out the door, it's the same thing that I did before, but I do it now and I get in my car.

• 2:23:31Speaker 02

  And it crushes me, dude. I'm like, I can't believe I just did the thing that I know I don't want to do, but I did it anyways. It's my response to those things.

• 2:23:48Speaker 02

  The most, I think, accurate way or picture to describe this, remember I told you I woke up the next day and like my desires had changed? Yes.

• 2:23:59Speaker 02

  The most accurate way I've heard this described is if you had two plates of food. You know, you had a plate of the finest food and then you had a bucket of garbage.

• 2:24:11Speaker 02

  You turn a pig loose into the room. The pig is going to go and stick his head in that bucket of garbage and eat that garbage. Before he eats the food off of that fine plate. Cause he likes the smell of garbage. He's attracted to, to the taste and the smell of that garbage. We have pigs at the house. Like that's what he would do. He would go eat the garbage before he ate the good stuff. And so, that pig, he's eating that garbage and there's this good stuff right here next to him. And he, he doesn't even, he's not even ashamed that he's eating that garbage because he's a pig.

• 2:24:50Speaker 02

  If you had the power to snap your fingers and to turn that pig into a man,

• 2:25:00Speaker 02

  that man would then lift his head up out of that garbage. And he would look around him and he would be ashamed that he had been eating that garbage.

• 2:25:13Speaker 02

  And he would depart from that garbage and go to the finer food. Right? Yeah. That's what he would do.

• 2:25:22Speaker 02

  That's, that's, that's the transition that I tried to describe to you earlier, how I was changed overnight. It was like, I no longer desired garbage more than I desired the fine things that the Lord has offered to me. My desires changed, right? I see what you're saying. But we still go back. Like that, there's a remnant of that pig in us. And every now and then we want to go back and eat that garbage, but we're ashamed. We don't want anybody to see us and we're ashamed and it upsets our stomach.

• 2:26:00Speaker 02

  And we respond to it differently. And that's, that's kind of the, the change and tying this all back into, well, why don't, why aren't Christians perfect? They say there's, they, they preach all this stuff. The, as a preacher or as a teacher, the closer you preach, the true literal word of scripture in terms of standards, the closer you get to that standard that's portrayed by scripture, the more of a hypocrite you are going to become. Cause you can't meet it.

• 2:26:40Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. So what you, what you're saying though, this is what I was getting at. What you're saying is one of the best examples of the power of being a Christian. What I'm talking about is the general perception of people on the outside that don't really maybe don't, maybe hang out mostly in secular circles. Maybe they have a bunch of friends that are atheists and they see religion as this big scam.

• 2:27:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:12Joe Rogan?

  And because the most popular versions of religion for a long time is televised religion. You know, that's the, when you think about people's exposure that aren't religious to religion, what do they, they hear about scandals? They hear about, you know, the, the pedophilia in the Catholic church. They hear about money that's being inappropriately spent and

• 2:27:36Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:27:37Joe Rogan?

  So the versions that they get are like, oh, this is just bullshit to control people.

• 2:27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:27:45Joe Rogan?

  And they don't hear enough about like genuine transformation stories and like why this is valuable? And why it's also valuable to intelligent people? Cause this has always been this.

• 2:28:01Joe Rogan?

  Is a misconception, or at least a narrative that's pushed out, that it's for dull-minded people. It's for dull-minded people that can't make sense of the world. It's too much confusion to them, so they need a structure.

• 2:28:11Speaker 02

  Which is totally in alignment with the, the, the whole truth that the, this cross thing is foolishness. Like, I understand that.

• 2:28:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:23Speaker 02

  I mean...

• 2:28:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, the fact that you do makes it much more palatable for people, too. What you were saying makes more sense to people, because like, okay, he's addressing these feelings that I have, too.

• 2:28:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you, you read, and I think it's, um, 1 Corinthians, Chapter 2, uh, the Apostle Paul is writing like, "Hey, I didn't come to you with these wise words," like, "trying to convince you of anything. I simply have preached to you this gospel, and notice that not many of you who are considered wise, like, were able to believe this, because it's, it's literally foolishness, until you're made alive." And it was, it's funny, it was by the Almighty's sovereign, immutable will that he chose

• 2:29:16Speaker 02

  the cross as to be the story of redemption for man. It's funny that he chose the cross, and he did it for his own good pleasure. He chose to destroy the wisdom of man by a message that is seemingly foolish. It's so backwards.

• 2:29:42Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:29:43Speaker 02

  He chose to destroy man's wisdom, our natural man's wisdom, right? All the great things that man has done and known and discovered. He chose to destroy all of that by this foolish message of the cross, for his own good pleasure. Because man, in his wisdom, did not know God when he came here, in the body, in the person of Jesus Christ. They actually killed him.

• 2:30:18Speaker 02

  He said, "I'm gonna destroy y'all's natural wisdom with this message of foolishness." Kinda comedic.

• 2:30:25Joe Rogan?

  It's, it is. So if it really did happen, it's the most bizarre way to get a message across.

• 2:30:30Speaker 02

  It's the most bizarre way that you could ever, like, literally even imagine, man.

• 2:30:36Joe Rogan?

  Now, and imagine you trying to explain to people your experiences with whatever you encountered in those barracks. And people hearing that, like, so the problem with unique experiences that are completely outside of the norm. Well, what's more outside of the norm than the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Or Jesus Christ being actually the Son of God? Like, imagine trying to explain that to people. They'd be like, "What are you talking about? There's this guy, his name is Jesus, like, shut the fuck up." Like, "What are you in a multi-level marketing scheme? Like, what are you talking about, man? This guy want money from you? Like, what is this guy? This guy fucking your wife? Like, what's going on? No, no, no, no, man. It's not like that." Like, "Okay, right, right."

• 2:31:19Joe Rogan?

  But if it really is true, you would be stuck. You'd be stuck with this story. And you can't leave that part out. No, you're commanded to tell the entire story.

• 2:31:33Joe Rogan?

  So you have this conundrum. "All right, this part's gonna sound crazy, but..."

• 2:31:40Speaker 02

  You summed it up well, Joe. You summed it up well, brother.

• 2:31:43Joe Rogan?

  It's the most fascinating thing of it, but I always tell people, "Look all that, look at it, but also know that if you live that way, and if you believe that, and if you follow those teachings, you will have a better life. There's something to it. There's a reason why people have been doing it. There's a reason why true Christians are some of the nicest, most compassionate, friendliest, charitable people that you'll ever meet. There's something to it. There's something to it. There's a, there's an, the origin of it all, there's, there's truth in the origin of it all. It's just trying to figure out what it means." And then... The translations, even the translations in English that you're reading, the way they communicate is so different than the way we communicate today.

• 2:32:27Joe Rogan?

  So you have to realize like the evolution of human discourse over thousands of years. The way we phrase things, the way we describe things, the way we talk about things is all very different. So you have to get scholars who understand the original way they talked about. Today is brought to you by the number one brand for better sex, BlueChew. BlueChew Gold is a four-in-one powerhouse that gets your brain and your body on the same page for sex. Two ingredients get the blood flow pumping and two ingredients prime your brain for arousal. No overthinking, just peak performance in as little as 15 minutes. Look at the stats. Gold is three times stronger, five times faster, and eight times longer lasting than

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• 2:35:04Joe Rogan?

  These things. And what did, why did they say a phrase this way? What is the meaning of this?

• 2:35:12Speaker 02

  Isn't it so good that we have men that have dedicated, men and women who have dedicated their entire lives to that, Joe?

• 2:35:17Joe Rogan?

  You follow that Wesley Huff guy?

• 2:35:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:35:19Joe Rogan?

  He's fantastic.

• 2:35:20Speaker 02

  I do, man. I'm so thankful for men like him. R.C. Spurrel is one that I love to read his stuff. He's passed now. Martin Luther, of course, is another one. But, I mean, because you think about me, like, what do I spend a day reading Scripture? Two hours a day, maybe? Sometimes, three? Like, I'm never going to become the expert.

• 2:35:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:35:47Speaker 02

  You know, you spend an hour a day or two hours a day doing anything, you're never going to become the expert.

• 2:35:53Joe Rogan?

  No, you'll be proficient.

• 2:35:54Speaker 02

  You'll be proficient. Yeah, you'll be able to kind of know your way around it. But the stuff that you're talking about knowing, which is stuff worth knowing, you know, that's the meat that we can consume.

• 2:36:04Joe Rogan?

  Also, when you're talking about the Old Testament and the New Testament, you put the two of them together, you're dealing with thousands of pages.

• 2:36:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:10Joe Rogan?

  Thousands. Thousands of pages of very confusing Scripture. Where some of it you're reading, you have to read it three or four times, and you just got to go, okay, what is, what exactly is he trying to say here?

• 2:36:23Speaker 02

  Because you have to figure out how it fits with the rest of it.

• 2:36:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:36:27Speaker 02

  Because you can, you can read it in a way, and you're like, this, this is contradictory.

• 2:36:35Speaker 02

  If Scripture is contradictory, it is not from God.

• 2:36:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:42Speaker 02

  Like, it cannot, by nature of what we know about the nature of the Almighty, what's revealed in Scripture to us, just about His nature, His attributes, right? It's one of my favorite things to study, the attributes of the Almighty, which we cannot even begin to grasp the fullness of it. But some of His attributes have been revealed to us, and so if that is His Word, it cannot contradict itself.

• 2:37:10Speaker 02

  Because that would go against what we know of as who He is.

• 2:37:19Joe Rogan?

  But yet...

• 2:37:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:22Joe Rogan?

  But yet, sometimes it does.

• 2:37:25Speaker 02

  Seemingly.

• 2:37:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:27Speaker 02

  Seemingly.

• 2:37:28Joe Rogan?

  And again, this is probably the interpretation of man. You know, and this is where it gets problematic. I mean, it is ultimately fascinating that you have something like the Book of Isaiah, where they found an older version that they didn't even know existed. It turns out to be a thousand years older, and it's verbatim. Fascinating, right?

• 2:37:50Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:37:51Joe Rogan?

  But before that got written down, they talked about it for a long time. A long time. And so few people could write things down, and so few people could read. That's where it gets weird. But I think ultimately, behind it all, they're trying to tell a story. They're trying to tell a fantastic story.

• 2:38:14Speaker 02

  And I think ultimately, too, I think something that you could add to that, Joe, is if what I'm saying is correct, in terms of what I believe about Scripture, ultimately, there has also to be some divine influence over the preservation

• 2:38:33Speaker 02

  of those Scriptures.

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  It's the only way, right? It would be the only way for the Scriptures, in their original language, to be truly the Word of the Almighty to man. The complete revelation of the Almighty to man. Like, there has to be some divine influence.

• 2:39:01Speaker 02

  For that to happen.

• 2:39:02Joe Rogan?

  Right, but then you have to take it back to the origins of it. Like, what was that? What was that divine influence?

• 2:39:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:08Joe Rogan?

  What were the experiences?

• 2:39:09Speaker 02

  Was it a conver- yeah, was it a conver- how did it, you know, we like, we like to, uh, you like to, kind of the, the, and here's another thing, man. It all involves faith. It does involve an aspect of faith, like,

• 2:39:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:26Speaker 02

  You know, because we look at the, the letters in the New Testament, who were mostly written by the Apostle Paul. And the only way that we can trust that, okay, this is the, the literal message from God to us, but it's coming through a man. Like, how does that happen? Well, we have to believe that, again, the Almighty is influencing man through the power of His Spirit in the man to write the things that the man wrote. You know, that's like, that's why this, this, this belief in the Holy Spirit and of the believer actually being possessed with the Spirit of God is so essential.

• 2:40:11Speaker 02

  Like, it has to be that way. Or else the Apostle Paul's writing his opinions.

• 2:40:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:40:17Speaker 02

  Or he's writing based off of his experience. You know, you could take it all the way back. What did Pilate say to Jesus? What is truth? Well, you know, what is, like, truth? I don't even know that truth can come from man alone, because everything that we have experienced is so influenced by our upbringing, by our perspective, by our memory, by so many factors. That's why, dude, I hate seeing these guys, these former military guys attacking each other, man. About he did this and he did that and he didn't do this and he didn't do that.

• 2:41:02Speaker 02

  I'm like, I mean, some guys might flat out be, you know, telling a fib. You know, I get that, right? You know, that's not good. But man, so many guys, so many people are recounting experiences that they've had in their life and their service and whatever it may be. And like, all of that is shaped by their unique perspective and the way that their mind works. And, you know, it's like, I can't attack a dude for that. You know what I mean? So if we're saying that the Bible is truly the perfect revelation of God to man, then we have to understand that the source of that, all of that,

• 2:41:46Speaker 02

  did not come from man in some way. It was wrought by God through man. If that makes sense.

• 2:41:54Joe Rogan?

  It does make sense. And that is the ultimate truth where it all started from. It's just trying to like sift through the tongue of man to get to whatever that truth is. And then this thing that will ultimately, I mean, unless some insane technology comes about, we'll never know. We'll never be able to go back in time and figure that out.

• 2:42:17Speaker 02

  That's a problem, ain't it?

• 2:42:19Joe Rogan?

  It's an issue.

• 2:42:20Speaker 02

  You know, I talked to my buddy about that while I was sitting, uh, sitting there with him, you know, as he was passing away. You know, scripture describes when you, when you leave your physical body here on earth, you know, you, your spirit basically goes into the presence of the Almighty immediately. But in that state, you're unclothed and you don't want to be unclothed. And like I was, I'm having all these, I lost my train of thought there on where we were going with that. But, um,

• 2:43:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. I forgot the original question, but it was pertaining to something, a conversation I had with him.

• 2:43:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, you were talking with him about this, this sort of leap of faith that you have to make.

• 2:43:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Okay, that's what I was talking to him about. I was like, "Right now, Mr. Don,

• 2:43:24Speaker 02

  you, there, there is an element of faith in, in what you believe, like, and that, that's a problem. Like, that's, it's hard to explain that. It's hard, that, that's a problem. But when you leave here, like, you're no longer going to have to live by faith. Like, once you get there, you're gonna know you made it. Like, it's, it's, it's all, but it goes back to what you were saying, like, we'll never know. There's always going to be an element of faith in what we believe. Like, there's, there has to be, as it pertains to things of God.

• 2:44:08Speaker 02

  There's always gonna be a certain element of faith. That very faith is the gift that the Lord gives to His elect. The ability to believe. Like, that is the gift. That element of faith, that's the gift that I treasure more than anything else that I have in my life. But it's still tough. Remember I told you I'd have doubts sometimes?

• 2:44:37Joe Rogan?

  Of course. Well, that's where the skeptical person steps in and says, "Well, this is ridiculous. It's all based on, you have to believe in faith, because logically, it doesn't make any sense." And so, this is, the problem with that is that you're making this assumption that the human mind is flawless, and that it could perceive truth, regardless of your learned experiences, regardless of what you know about the world. You could see truth, even if it's a completely unique thing. You could know that it doesn't exist.

• 2:45:06Joe Rogan?

  Like, there's no way. There's no way you know. And if it is a puzzle, what greater puzzle? Then you have to believe something that defies logic. Like, if you were gonna, if you're gonna demand faith of someone, you would, you would deliver it in a way that this, the only way to buy into this is that you have to get past your logic. You have to abandon it. And you have to believe something that you've been told is impossible. But my answer to that is...

• 2:45:41Speaker 02

  Tell you what, Joe, you're gonna make a good preacher one day, man.

• 2:45:42Joe Rogan?

  My answer to that is, isn't everything impossible? This is the problem with that. The problem is, Terrence McKenna once said that "science only demands of you one miracle." That's the Big Bang. If you believe in one miracle, everything else it says it can explain with materialist science. So, if you, the, the miracle of the Big Bang is way crazier to believe than the resurrection of a, a human being. That's, that seems more logical. It seems more plausible. People live, people die, maybe people come back to life. I'll buy that more than the entire universe is smaller than the head of a pin. And through

• 2:46:25Joe Rogan?

  no process that anybody's adequately explained, becomes everything. And maybe it's a continual process. It happens over and over and over again.

• 2:46:34Speaker 02

  Well, you like, you like to look into all this stuff. My wife sent me a YouTube video or something the other day. Apparently, they saw something with one of these telescopes or something that they look into the cosmos with that has completely, like, destroyed all their evidence of...

• 2:46:48Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:46:49Speaker 02

  Their, their, their theology behind the Big Bang.

• 2:46:53Joe Rogan?

  Yes. James Webb Telescope. Yeah. They're, they're finding, they, they think that some of what they were interpreting as the initial signals of the Big Bang are not that. That this, that not only that, but the origin, the birth of the universe is far older than they think it was, because they're finding galaxies that are far too large and formed, that are so far away, that they would have had to form far quicker than they thought was possible from the moment of the Big Bang to them. So, this has extended, in some people's eyes, the birth of the universe to 22-plus billion years old, instead of 13.7 or whatever it is. So they think it's possibly even older, but then there's also questions like the Big Bang itself

• 2:47:38Joe Rogan?

  might not be correct. You might be just interpreting the signals of this part of the space, part of the universe, we just can't see yet. Cause we don't have the ability to see further than what the James Webb Telescope can do. So as we develop better and better tools, with each iteration, you're gonna have a much deeper understanding of the vastness of the universe itself, which may ultimately be infinite. And Roger Penrose thinks that not only was there not just a Big Bang, that there's a continual cycle of these things that happen for eternity, that there's never been a beginning.

• 2:48:18Speaker 02

  Go ahead and wrap your mind around that.

• 2:48:19Joe Rogan?

  Wrap your mind around that. Wrap your, because we always wanna think in terms of our own personal biological limitations. We have a birth and we have a death.

• 2:48:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:48:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, what was the birth of the universe? Well, why? Why assume that? Why? Because we have this tiny little lifespan of a hundred years?

• 2:48:35Speaker 02

  Even, even when we try to interpret hard things about scripture, or we, we think about, you know, the Lord, we, we even, almost always, we put time constraints.

• 2:48:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:46Speaker 02

  On him, like, how do you think without the constraints of time, like, in your mind, you know what I mean? Freaking wild, man.

• 2:48:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, then time gets real weird when you get into the Old Testament, like, how old was Noah?

• 2:49:02Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 2:49:03Joe Rogan?

  Like, what does that mean?

• 2:49:04Speaker 02

  They lived a long time, you know, that, that, that kinda goes along with my theory of, uh, at the fall of man, literally marring man's genetic code, and how that has just kinda progressively gotten worse over time.

• 2:49:18Joe Rogan?

  It's possible, but it's also possible that their interpretation of time is different, because they didn't understand calendars. You know, that they, what they considered a year was not what we're talking about. We're talking about a completely different thing.

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:29Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, we have such a limited understanding just of human civilization. I mean, there's, there's new findings, like, constantly, that are completely throwing a monkey wrench into the timeline of human history. And, you know, some of the biggest ones are happening in Egypt right now, where they're finding structures under, through tomography, through these, the use of satellites. They're finding these structures underneath the pyramids that go down two kilometers deep. Very controversial stuff, but they've repeated it over and over again. There's these cylinders and there's coils that seem to be wrapped around these cylinders. They're hundreds of meters deep and then there's more structures underneath there. They're like, well, what is this? Who made this?

• 2:50:13Joe Rogan?

  Like, explaining the pyramids themselves is impossible. They try, they pretend. People were just smarter than you think? Okay, maybe, but also crazy that you've got this fucking thing that's what, 17 acres? In its footprint, 2,300,000 stones. Some of them cut from a quarry 500 miles away, placed hundreds of feet in the ceiling. Some of them are 50-plus tons that they've moved into these positions. Cut perfectly, you can't even get a razor blade in between of them, set the perfect north, south, east and west. And now you find out there's structures underneath them that might go down 2 kilometers. We might have a completely fucked up understanding of human history and it's very likely we do.

• 2:50:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, you know, there's a lot of speculation around, I'm sure you have had somebody on to talk about this period of human history in scripture where it talks about essentially these angelic beings.

• 2:51:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:51:12Speaker 02

  Basically procreating with women, human women.

• 2:51:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:16Speaker 02

  And creating some sort of hybrid race, men of renown.

• 2:51:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:22Speaker 02

  With special knowledge and you would, it would seem that something like that, when you look at the example and all of the stuff you just talked about with the pyramids. Like, there was, they were getting special knowledge.

• 2:51:38Joe Rogan?

  There was something weird.

• 2:51:39Speaker 02

  From, from some source. I don't know. Like you said, we can't understand it, man.

• 2:51:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, we don't, unfortunately, because of the burning of the Library of Alexandria, we have a limited understanding of what was going on. But what, what they did accomplish that's still there today baffles, just baffles the greatest human minds. They're like.

• 2:52:00Speaker 02

  What I love about you is you're not afraid to ask these questions, man. And what you're doing here on the show, it's like, you're not afraid to dig into anything.

• 2:52:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't think you should be afraid of questions, and no one should be.

• 2:52:12Speaker 02

  But a lot of people's pride, you know, like, keep them from...

• 2:52:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's that.

• 2:52:19Speaker 02

  Kind of asking those questions, I mean.

• 2:52:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, people take themselves seriously, you know, I don't really take myself very seriously, luckily. And I also am not married to my ideas. My ideas are just ideas, and they're not mine. They're just ideas, and I'll entertain those ideas. But if they're wrong, I'll say, oh, that's wrong. I thought this, this is why I thought that, this is what it turns out it really is. And I think if you can do that, you'll have a healthier perspective. Just ask questions. Don't be afraid to sound foolish. Because there's probably a reason why you want to ask that question. And maybe there's a logical answer that'll make you seem foolish for asking the question, like, oh, okay, now I get it. But maybe not. And there's a lot of assumptions that people cling to. And boy, we found out a lot about that during COVID.

• 2:53:05Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of shit that people just believe, wholeheartedly, that's 100% not true. And you'll yell at people about it, and you'll fucking change people's lives, and you'll treat people like plague rats, and it's 100%, you're 100% incorrect. And you've based your entire identity on this information that's 100% incorrect. And then, years later, you're still justifying it because your ego won't allow you to admit that you were incorrect. You had made false assumptions, you had gone down the wrong way of thinking, and here you are, stuck with this undeniable truth that's right in front of your face. You were fucking wrong. You were wrong, you got played, you can't trust the government,

• 2:53:48Joe Rogan?

  you can't trust the pharmaceutical drug companies, you can't trust anybody that's making a profit off of you. There it is, right in front of your face. And that's, that's the problem with being, with taking yourself too seriously. That's the problem with being married to your ideas, that's the problem with always wanting to be right, and always wanting to sound intelligent.

• 2:54:08Speaker 02

  That's so good. Joe, this is so impactful for me to hear you say that because I have to share this with you, of course. I had a, I've told a few of my close buddies and friends that I was coming on the show today to have a conversation with you. And it's amazing people's response when you tell them that you're gonna come and sit down to the mighty Joe Rogan, the most powerful man on the internet. I've heard you called that. Uh, dude, I'm, I'm, don't, don't be offended by any of that. This is just, this is what people say. And, you know, I had so many people tell me, now Chad, when you go sit down with Joe, you better just stick to what you know.

• 2:54:51Joe Rogan?

  (laughing)

• 2:54:52Speaker 02

  And I'm like, I'm sitting here like, buddy, I don't know a whole lot. Like, when you really get down, like, what you said, man, like, you're not, you're not attached to your ideas. And, and they're not, a lot of times, they're not even your ideas. They're just, you just think about things deeply, and you ask these questions. And, and when you live that way, you, you do, you, you do come to the realization that, man, there's very little that I actually know, when we define the word, or the idea of knowing something. And, and even scripture tells us, any man that thinks he knows anything, hasn't known

• 2:55:34Speaker 02

  as he ought to know. In other words, as soon as you think you have the answers to most things, you are totally backwards. You haven't known. The, the ultimate form, I think, one of the ultimate forms of knowledge, or knowing, is realizing that you really don't know much.

• 2:55:52Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely.

• 2:55:53Speaker 02

  And, but it's just funny that you, you talked about that, and that was some of the advice I received.

• 2:55:59Joe Rogan?

  But if you only talk about the things you know about, yeah, but the problem with that is, like, you're never gonna get anywhere. You gotta be able to talk about things you don't know.

• 2:56:07Speaker 02

  I agree, man. I agree. And, uh, yeah, man, it's, uh, people's, people's perspective of what you've built here, and, and, uh...

• 2:56:18Speaker 02

  You know, what you do and what you've accomplished, I think it's just like so skewed like ju- just based off of some of the conversations I had, you know what I mean?

• 2:56:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's always gonna get weird when anything gets large, you know, people have their own opinions and their own perceptions of things that are successful and...

• 2:56:39Speaker 02

  Why do you keep going at this point?

• 2:56:41Joe Rogan?

  It's fun.

• 2:56:42Speaker 02

  You, you, you enjoy it?

• 2:56:43Joe Rogan?

  I like it, yeah.

• 2:56:43Speaker 02

  That's good, man.

• 2:56:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I like it. I enjoy it. It's enriching. I like talking to people. I like learning new things, like having interesting conversations, fun conversations.

• 2:56:54Speaker 02

  What was your first kind of big break?

• 2:56:58Joe Rogan?

  As a podcaster?

• 2:56:59Speaker 02

  As a po- I mean, just in general as a someone who's public?

• 2:57:07Joe Rogan?

  I guess the big one was Fear Factor. You know, that was the one that kind of made me famous.

• 2:57:12Speaker 02

  But what led you there?

• 2:57:13Joe Rogan?

  I was on a TV show before that called News Radio. It was a sitcom.

• 2:57:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:57:18Joe Rogan?

  I was on that. Before that, I was a stand-up comic. And, uh, you know, my trajectory's been very slow, which is good. It's healthier for you. You can, you get it better. Like, you can deal with it. Cause the worst thing that ever happens is like a 20-year-old kid becomes super famous. You're just fucked. You're fucked. You just, you're not gonna be able to handle that. You're gonna be off the rails. You just, it's just too weird. The world is a totally different place. Everybody knows who you are, where you go. Everyone around you needs you, so you have all these talking heads around you that are kissing your ass. Your, your perception of the world's completely distorted. You never had to truly develop your character.

• 2:57:59Joe Rogan?

  You know, you've, you've got untold wealth, you know, in your teens. Like, you can't handle that. Nobody can handle that. No child stars ever make it out and seem normal. They're all fucked. It's like cement where you, you mix it wrong. You know, there's not enough waters, not enough sand, whatever it is. The formulation's wrong. It's, you're never gonna fix it. You're not gonna fix it after the fact. It's already formed. And, uh, it's a tragedy. But to get fame slowly, as long as you're always working on your character. And one of the things that will keep you sane when you're going through fame in particular is voluntary adversity.

• 2:58:40Joe Rogan?

  Like particularly working out.

• 2:58:42Speaker 02

  Man, that's good, brother. I can relate to that, man.

• 2:58:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, I know you're big into ultra running and that kind of voluntary. I saw you took up jiu-jitsu recently too, right? That looks fun. It's fucking tiring, huh? For a guy with the kind of endurance that you have, isn't it amazing how tired you get?

• 2:58:58Speaker 02

  It was rough, dude. Bad rough.

• 2:59:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, jiu-jitsu is humiliating. It's humbling. It's, but there's a lot of power in that humbling. It, it, it, it makes the rest of your life so much easier. Really does. That, that jiu-jitsu is a huge factor in my sanity and my ability to stay sane through everything. Is that I'm getting humbled all the time.

• 2:59:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:23Joe Rogan?

  I'm exhausted all the time. Dudes are strangling me all the time. You know, it was like you just kind of like, so that kind of conflict was so overwhelming, but yet also positive. And, uh, and helped me so much with character development, my understanding of myself and what I was able to accomplish if I worked hard enough. It allows you to navigate the, the weird waters of fame so much easier.

• 2:59:51Speaker 02

  It's a, that's really impactful to hear you say that, Joe, because I think that is, is and has been my exact same experience, you know, and we've been do, we've, I've been kind of public for the last five years now and it's, it's been kind of slow, but, but again, it, it kind of went big there. For like within two years, like it, the YouTube and stuff blew up to the point that I'm nowhere, obviously on, on the level that you experienced in your life, but you know, you can't go out in public without somebody's gonna stop you.

• 3:00:25Joe Rogan?

  You're at the level where I know who you are.

• 3:00:26Speaker 02

  And, and all these comments and all this stuff, you know what I mean? But like, but like continuously choosing to do these.

• 3:00:36Speaker 02

  Challenges that like, I don't even know if I'm gonna be able to do it like the Yukon Race, the Yukon 1000, we didn't finish that. We went 435 miles and David started having circulation issues in his lower body because he's paralyzed. Blood doesn't flow very well. And like, his leg is usually the size just of his femur, you know, or his bones. And by the third day, his legs were the same size as my legs. And he started to develop these pressure sores on his butt, which is very, very dangerous for people who are paralyzed

• 3:01:16Speaker 02

  just from sitting in that kayak for 18 hours a day. But like, we didn't, we didn't complete that. But we were out there, like, truly in the, truly in wilderness, like, struggling against not only the miles, but just the environment. Like, I love to hear all these hippie people talk about Mother Earth. It's like, Mother Earth will freaking kill you, son. You talk about Mother Earth around me, that tells me one thing, you ain't spent much time in nature. But man, we're out there just like, struggling through this. And it

• 3:02:00Speaker 02

  became something that for my teammate, he physically wasn't in a place that he could safely continue. But like, that so refreshed me, dude. Being out there, the experience, the struggle, it's brutal, man. Like 120, 130 mile days, 18 hour days in this kayak, you're getting three hours of sleep, having to cook all your food. It's all self-contained. But like, I come out the other end of that, man, and I'm just like, so. Dialed in. Dialed in, dude. Without those experiences.

• 3:02:42Speaker 02

  I agree with you 100% man.

• 3:02:45Joe Rogan?

  I think all men need voluntary adversity.

• 3:02:47Speaker 02

  I might, yeah.

• 3:02:48Joe Rogan?

  I think you need it. I think that's one of the reasons why people are so filled with anxiety and depression. And I, I think you need to challenge yourself all the time. And I think it needs to be physical. I think it's not just a mental thing. I think people need physical challenge. I think it's a, a very important part for maintaining sanity.

• 3:03:05Speaker 02

  It is for me, for sure. I, I have to have something, you know, on the micro level daily. On the micro level, I have to have maybe two things, big things a year that, that I, that I look at and I'm like, I don't know if I can actually finish that or not.

• 3:03:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:24Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? And, and then it forces me to, to train, to learn, to prepare, to plan. That's when you get, if, if we want to move toward mental toughness and how this kind of preps you and keeps you going through life, like that's where all the mental toughness is really built is through the training process. Like on race day, you shouldn't be getting any more mentally tough on race day. You know what I mean?

• 3:03:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you waited too long.

• 3:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:54Speaker 02

  But your brain is just a muscle like any other muscle in my, in my experience.

• 3:03:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:00Speaker 02

  It's a, if you, if you stop exercising it and people want to act like there are people out there, maybe like me or like David Goggins or these people that have become so mentally tough that like, we're just good. Like we should be able to show up anywhere, anytime and perform and just crush everyone. That, that's not how it works. Like every one of us, we have to prepare and train and train day in and day out and go through the process in order to perform.

• 3:04:37Speaker 02

  That's a never-ending thing. But people want to believe that you can just become mentally tough and then possess that and perform for the rest of your life.

• 3:04:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no.

• 3:04:47Speaker 02

  They want to believe that because they don't want to do the work that's required to actually perform at a high, high level.

• 3:04:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:04:56Speaker 02

  You know, it's almost like an out.

• 3:04:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:59Speaker 02

  That people want to take or believe in.

• 3:05:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, man, I'm glad you're out there. I appreciate you very much. I appreciate you coming in and doing the show and Three of Seven Projects on YouTube. Are you on anything else?

• 3:05:11Speaker 02

  Uh, just threeofsevenproject.com. If you want to come train with us, that's what, I mean, that's my passion in life is not only my faith, but teaching and everything that we do is, uh, we have training exercises, you know, once a month or something, and I'm out there with you, suffering with you.

• 3:05:28Joe Rogan?

  Beautiful.

• 3:05:29Speaker 02

  And go check it out if you want to come hang out. And Joe, man, I can't thank you enough for your generosity.

• 3:05:35Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure.

• 3:05:36Speaker 02

  There's many times during that conversation that you could have made me look like a fool, I'm sure.

• 3:05:40Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, it was great.

• 3:05:41Speaker 02

  And you had a lot of grace for me, brother.

• 3:05:42Joe Rogan?

  I enjoyed it very much. Thank you very much.

• 3:05:44Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 3:05:45Joe Rogan?

  All right. Bye, everybody.