#2275 - Magnus Carlsen

Magnus Carlsen is a chess grandmaster. He is a five-time World Chess Champion, five-time World Rapid Chess Champion, and a reigning World Blitz Chess Champion. www.magnuscarlsen.com This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Zero Day is now playing, only on Netflix. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  All right, we're up and rolling. Magnus Carlsen, ladies and gentlemen. You want some coffee?

• 0:16Speaker 01

  No, oh, this is water.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  Tell Jeff to bring in the coffee. Forgot to bring in the coffee.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  No, no, I'm good with water.

• 0:22Joe Rogan?

  But I need coffee. I'm gonna keep up with you, buddy. And of course, Tony Hitchcliff is here, who's a gigantic chess fan and just creamed his pants yesterday when I told him you were coming in. And then immediately I said, "You gotta come with me." And so Tony's here as well. It's an honor to meet you, man. I'm always fascinated by people that are at the top of something that's insanely difficult, like chess. And I'm always wondering, like, how much time is involved? How often do you play? And when did you start? How old were you when you first started playing?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  I think my dad, my dad is an avid chess player. So I think he thought that I might have some talent. So he thought, he taught me pretty early, around five years old. But at that time, I wasn't that interested. I was mostly into Legos and I was into maths and like sports stats. And I had my little flag book with all the countries in the world, their flags and their inhabitants and area and everything. And I sort of, that's what I did, generally, just taking in all the stats that I could also with sports, reading the sports section every day. And I didn't find chess that fun.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  A couple of years later, my older sister, who's a year and a half older than me, she had, she did a lot of chess with my dad. I started sitting in on them a bit and I started liking it. I really, really wanted to beat my sister as well at generally everything. And yeah, from there on, it really just became my thing. And it's, you know, been my main hobby and eventually work as well since.

• 2:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, obviously. It's so funny, though, a spark, a competitive spark with your sister is really what ignited you to get going with it.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, the funny thing is like she's not competitive at all. So she hated the fact that I like, I wanted to play, especially when I, I, I realized that I could beat her. Uh, and she, she, she liked chess, but she stopped for, for a while and only started when I had become like good enough that there wasn't a competition. So it turned like, like my dad was right after all. I just needed, um, I just needed that, um, that extra push.

• 2:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. What a, what a call. I think you've got some talent. What a call.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Grandmaster at 12, was it? Um, 13. So actually the, um, the record is, um, the record is 12, but uh, most kids these days, honestly, they, they start so early. Uh, I was at a tournament in India a few months ago and there's this guy who's like a 1600 rated player and he's three years old. And like, I, I'm seeing,

• 3:12Speaker 01

  I'm seeing, I'm seeing the games, like they're actually, they're actually decent. Um, and yeah, now there, there's this one kid from Argentina, like they call him the Messi of chess, who's gonna become a grandmaster soon. I think he's, he's only 10. So they're, they're really, really uh, playing early these days, but it's, it's, it's good to see though, because like information is so easily accessible these days, like it takes a lot shorter time to, to get, to get good at something.

• 3:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, it seems like now, uh, chess, because of social media, it's like everything else. It's kind of exploding because there's so many fascinating videos out. And then of course there was like the big controversy with that, uh, young man who you believe is a, a big old cheater. That guy. I, I need to know, the anal beads thing, is that a legitimate theory?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  So it actually started in one of, uh, my friend's streamer channel that like one random guy said, made, made a comment about anal beads and he was, and he was like, ah, yeah, maybe. And then, uh, I think it, it became, it started taking the rounds in Reddit and then Elon saw it, tweeted about it and then obviously it blew up. Um, I, I actually spoke to, um,

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I think it was Marc Andreessen who said like, "That would be one way to do it."

• 4:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  But I really, really, really don't believe that that has happened. Like, I think it has no connection to reality, but it just became a thing of its own.

• 4:53Joe Rogan?

  So unfortunately, this young man, we'll explain the anal beads thing, but this young man is a very talented player, but does have a history of some shenanigans, correct? And even admitted that he did a little bit of cheating in order to move his rating higher, so he could play better players.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he's not admitted to nearly the extent of his cheating. But if you sort of take what chess.com say, then yeah. He cheated a bunch online in a certain period of time, partly in tournaments, but mostly in casual games, as he did set himself to sort of get himself up the standings and play the best players in the world.

• 5:46Joe Rogan?

  But he is a very good player.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I think he has become a very good player, yeah.

• 5:52Joe Rogan?

  Interesting, okay. So what made you convinced that he was cheating in that particular game? And by what method do you think he could possibly have been doing this?

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Could you hear something? Was it like "burnt"?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  You're hearing vibrations?

• 6:08Joe Rogan?

  He sees his seat shift.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  You're smelling something? There's a way of something in the air? Yeah, I mean, that would have been the smoking gun, I suppose.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  I think there was a combination of things, though, based on, you know, the chess level that I thought that he had and that I'd seen from his game, both playing against him, analyzing a little with him, and looking at his other games. There were a lot of stories. Back then, the thing is also there's there's a Netflix documentary coming in a few months that sort of where I'm telling my side of the story. So I like I cannot go too deep into into everything, but

• 7:06Speaker 01

  what I can say was that there were there were a lot of factors that made me very, very suspicious.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  And I think ever since then, he has become better, but there's some still something.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  There's still something off, both then and now, but.

• 7:31Joe Rogan?

  That's so fascinating that as an elite chess player, you'd be able to recognize that something is happening that's outside of his capabilities.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Again, I'm not ruling out the factor that chess players are becoming more and more paranoid because we do have chess engines that basically have perfect chess, right? Anybody with their their phone can, as I think Elon tweeted to to Gary once, like my iPhone can beat you at chess, which is which is which is the truth. And this means that, you know, anybody having access to information, it's incredibly it's incredibly dangerous. And I think top level chess has been a lot based on on trust and

• 8:22Speaker 01

  whenever you have outsiders whom there are these stories about, everybody gets a bit a bit jittery there. There's like as people who either like they burst onto the scene, then they then they establish themselves and people. People know that they're legit and so on. It's not a it's not a problem with with him specifically.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  I don't know, it was...

• 8:52Speaker 01

  It's just... He doesn't seem to be playing, or it didn't at that point seem to be playing with with a particular style. It seemed that he either played kind of eh, or he just more or less played any position very well in certain games. Like, he could just switch from tactical to positional play very easily and

• 9:20Speaker 01

  it was, um... Yeah, it didn't smell good to me. It still it still doesn't, but

• 9:29Speaker 01

  you know, to some extent, like, he he had his lawsuit. We've all kind of moved a little bit on. I think I don't trust him. A lot of other top players still don't trust him.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  He certainly doesn't

• 9:47Speaker 01

  doesn't trust me, or Chess.com, or Hikario, or whomever he felt wronged by.

• 9:54Joe Rogan?

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• 11:58Joe Rogan?

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• 12:42Joe Rogan?

  has a lot of trust in it like chess, you're always going to think, like, is he cheating now? Always. But the question is, like, what method? Like, what do people do? So if you're sitting there, you have no phone, your pockets are empty. Like, what could you be doing that could possibly be aiding you?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, like, an invisible airpiece that people use for exams and so on, like...

• 13:05Joe Rogan?

  So, but he would have to have a partner?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, uh, he would, yeah.

• 13:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Um, that would not have been detected by the security system that they, um, they used at that tournament. Um, they answered the security after the whole thing happened.

• 13:23Joe Rogan?

  Did they check your ears?

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, they started checking their, our ears, and then, um, you know, we had a live tournament in, in Paris last year where I played him, where there was proper security, where all of these things would be picked up, and he didn't, like, he didn't play to nearly the same, uh, to nearly the same level there. Um, so I think, I, I, well, I'm not an expert in all of that, but that's what I've heard from people, that that's like the most obvious thing that it could have, uh, that someone could have done, and it wouldn't be really that hard to pull off, considering the kind of, um, security we have at, at chess tournaments.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  And this tournament had like a little bit of security. A lot of them, like, open tournaments, uh, people are like wandering in and out of the playing hall. There are people in the playing hall, like spectators, with their, um, um, with their smartphones, uh, on, and taking pictures or, or whatever, like, going in and out, like, they could make signals. It's, it's, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's hard. It's, it's a big problem in chess, for sure.

• 14:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the, so the anal beads thing, for people who don't know what we're talking about, the, the theory was that he had vibrating anal beads that would somehow or another, through some sort of code, explain to him the moves. And I've thought about this for a lot longer than I care to admit, like, what, what kind of code are you getting from inside your butt that you're like, okay, I got it?

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Well, it would be like, you know, c4 or whatever, like, it could tell you by-

• 14:59Joe Rogan?

  How would it say it in your butt, though?

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Bam, bam, bam, bam. Well, I mean-

• 15:02Joe Rogan?

  Morse code?

• 15:03Speaker 02

  I'd have to show you.

• 15:06Joe Rogan?

  Luckily, I brought one.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have some in right now. No, it would be like, it would buzz, right? It would buzz the letters and then the numbers that would indicate where you would move. And there would only be a piece or two.

• 15:19Joe Rogan?

  So like, the first three vibrations would be letter C and then, yeah, okay.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, it's just a sort of technological version of ways people have cheated. Before, there was a scandal back in 2010 where the captain of the French team was helping one of his, um, one of the French players by cheating. He was basically just standing in certain spots around the table to tell him where to, where to move.

• 15:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow. That's crazy. Oh, wow. Dirty people out there. It's wild. Well, it's such a competitive thing. Whenever you have competitive things, you always have people that just want to win at any cost, right?

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's also funny that, um, one of his teammates from that tournament, uh, worked with me for a long time. And he told me, like, this guy was like, going out every night, not taking the tournament seriously at all. But he, yeah, he had a good reason, like, he knew he was gonna...

• 16:15Joe Rogan?

  He's partying.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  He knew he was gonna win.

• 16:17Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious. So that, is that the most egregious form of cheating that you've ever seen? Or heard of?

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Um, no, I, I actually played an open tournament in Denmark about 20 years ago, where there was a guy who was playing grandmaster in the first round, like, this is not a very good player. And he was, he came drunk to the table and just literally pulled out his phone and opened the chess program, but of course, like, he was immediately, um, so that, that wasn't, of course, nearly as nefarious, but, yeah.

• 16:49Joe Rogan?

  That's just a moron.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he was just, yeah, probably, um, some other, some other issues there.

• 16:55Joe Rogan?

  There's just such a, it is such a fascinating game because it's impossible to play if you're dumb. Like, there's games that you could just be a savant, like, an idiot savant, but chess is, like, it's the most impressive thing for people to be unbelievably good at.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  I don't know, I think you can be dumb and be fairly good at chess. I think some intelligence certainly helps, but after all,

• 17:29Speaker 01

  a lot of chess is about learning patterns, right? And basically, anybody can do that. So applying them at a higher level, learning how to evaluate and so on, that is what sets really the best players apart from merely good players. But I feel like anybody could become quite decent at the game. But I do love the fact that there are no coincidences, there are no outside factors, well, if you don't talk, other than cheating, of course. But it's just, yeah, you're either outsmarting your opponent, or you're getting outsmarted.

• 18:13Joe Rogan?

  So for a guy like you that excels above all, what is the difference in your preparation? Is it just simply who you are as a person, you think? Or is it something about the difference in your preparation, without giving away any secrets, obviously?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  I'm known in the chess world for being a little bit lazy, I think. The thing is that I...

• 18:42Joe Rogan?

  Can I pause there?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:44Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean lazy? How is that possible?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  No, the thing is, I've never been the kind of person who wakes up in the morning, works six, seven hours in chess like a normal job. And then...

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Because a lot of them study computers and stuff. Exactly. I think about the game all the time. I play online, I look at games, I mean, read some...

• 19:10Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever play anonymously?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  I used to do that all the time.

• 19:15Joe Rogan?

  What a bloodbath that must be.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  But...

• 19:20Speaker 01

  But I think I got humbled um one time by this Russian grandmaster who um asked, somebody else asked me like if a certain account on a certain website was me. And I was like, yeah, um, I don't know, like, I don't know who that is. And this guy went like, yes, that is you. And he listed up like five other accounts that I thought nobody knew about.

• 19:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  That were also me.

• 19:46Joe Rogan?

  By the way you play?

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's it's it's playing strength, playing style. Because I I tried to switch up my openings on different accounts to not make it obvious that it's it's me and I have like a style where I switch that up a lot, so it makes it a bit easier. But I think you could just tell by um by the playing style, so.

• 20:06Joe Rogan?

  That is crazy.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  These these days, I just I play with my um my own name. Um, I like, I'm, I don't really care about that anymore.

• 20:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, um, so do most professional players study chess all day long? At the highest level?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  I think um, I think quite a few do. Uh, I I mean, I don't know like people's day to day activities, so.

• 20:36Joe Rogan?

  You guys don't talk about it?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Not that much. Um, the people that I've worked with, they certainly study chess a lot. Uh, but others, I'm I'm not quite sure. Um, the thing is that chess is always like still been a bit of a hobby for me. That once it start starts to feel like work, then it's it's it's harder for me. I had a I had a chess coach when I was uh when I was little. I I went to have sessions once a week, which I loved. And then he started giving me homework and I, yeah, I I I told him like quickly, like, I, yeah, I don't I don't like, I don't like homework, but I would.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  But I would still spend a lot of time like reading books, playing along the things that I still do, but I would do them for fun. And that was the difference between me and the other kids is that they would go to chess practice, they would maybe even do their homework, but they weren't living and breathing sort of the game that, that in the way that I was like, I think about it all the time. Like I'm thinking about the game while I'm sitting on this chair. Like I'm still analyzing a game that I played today. Like it never goes completely out of, out of my mind. And I think a lot of very good chess players do that, but like casual chess players, no, of course.

• 21:57Joe Rogan?

  So maybe the thing is discipline versus enthusiasm. Enthusiasm causes obsession and enjoyment, which probably leads to better retention of information. Whereas just pure discipline for the sake of like, I have to do the work in order to get better. You're missing this enjoyment. You're missing this enthusiasm for it that you have managed to, although absorbing so much information and playing all the time, you've managed to keep it playful and fun.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  I think so. I think this is definitely the way that works for me, maybe for others. I, I think for anybody, like if you want to be great at something, you have to be obsessed with it.

• 22:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  And yeah, it has to come from, it has to come from within. Like nobody can, um, yeah, maybe in, in certain, in certain sports you can get, you can get that good purely by very, very targeted practice and a lot of, lot of hours. But, um, yeah, I, I think, um,

• 23:02Speaker 01

  for me, it's just a way that, it's just a way that it, um, that it works. And, um, I do like process the, even though like I don't, I don't necessarily study, like I don't, don't deliberately practice all the time. I still process the information. So it's still whatever, whatever the method is, it certainly works.

• 23:22Joe Rogan?

  But it's interesting because you've been able to excel above so many. And it makes me wonder, like, I always am fascinated by some, whether it's a Tiger Woods, or whether, whatever the athlete is, or whatever the game they play. What separates the very best from everyone else? Like, I know in martial arts, there's a series of factors that have to do with genetics, training, coaches, sparring partners, and then ultimately, discipline and drive. But with chess, it's all mental. Physical has nothing to do with it. So, do you think it's a genetic thing? Do you think you have a unique mind for chess?

• 24:03Joe Rogan?

  Is it, do you think it's this balance that you keep with enthusiasm and obsession? Like, what do you think separates you from everyone else?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  I think it has to be a, um, a variety of factors. I think there's no doubt that I'm incredibly naturally gifted at the game. Like, otherwise, I wouldn't have come this far. And my dad is incredibly good with numbers. He started playing chess quite late, but became, um, but became decent. Like, my mother was quite smart, and my sisters are very intelligent too. So, like, it's clear that, you know, there are some good genes. And I just, you know, I happened to find also an environment, early on,

• 24:54Speaker 01

  where I lived near Oslo, which had probably the best chess environment there was in Norway, at the very least, where there were, I had access to coaches, and I had access to, like, a little training group of other ambitious kids.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  After that, you know, I think the most important thing that I've done is that I haven't really listened to people who want me to do things like a certain way, because that's the way things have always been done, especially with the Soviet chess school. That was the dominant one for so many years. So, I've always sort of gone my own way, tried to have as much fun. Everything has to be about enjoyment. And... Yeah, I cannot tell you why, but I just like understand the game better, better than the others.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Like I, I'm, I don't calculate necessarily as far as the other. But my intuition like for short lines, constantly evaluating is, is just, is just better.

• 26:07Joe Rogan?

  It's just, it, it's always just such an interesting thing to analyze, like high performers. You know, and just to wonder like what it is that separates high performers. When you say your father started playing late, how old was he?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Oh, I think he started playing about fourteen, fifteen, something like that. I, in, in chess, that's, that's very, but he never, he never like took it, took it seriously enough.

• 26:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  That he wanted to, like he pursued it, but.

• 26:38Joe Rogan?

  As a hobby.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  As, as a hobby, yeah.

• 26:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, you, when you say take it seriously, you mean like you do.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:44Joe Rogan?

  Right? What, this is what makes me think about epigenetics. Like we, we still don't exactly know how much information is transferred between parents to children. And it seems like there's a lot of talents, whether it's like singing talent or sports talent. That you have to wonder like, is that coming from genes? Or is that coming from the environment which this child grows up, which this person? Or is it a combination of all those factors? Like, I wonder if someone gets really, a very intelligent person gets very good at chess early on. I wonder if some information or some proclivity for the game gets transferred.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  I, I think the reaction in, in the chess community, at least with certain people was more along the lines of how could such a lousy player have such a good son at chess with, with my dad?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  And the, the fact is as well that I.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  There are practically no, um, there are many couples of, um, you know, uh, like both mother and father are grandmasters in chess, but I don't think any of them have had sons or daughters that are grandmasters. So the, whereas you see anywhere like in the NBA or the NHL or in football or wherever, like it happens all the time. So I, I cannot say exactly why that is, but it does suggest that, you know, uh, it's not a given, at least with genetics, that your, um, that your children are, are gonna.

• 28:19Joe Rogan?

  I have an alternate theory for that. I wonder if you're a child and your parents are absolutely obsessed with the game, if it's annoying and you're like, fuck this game. Like I want to go play in the park and my parents don't even pay attention to me. This is bullshit.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:33Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, like there's a lot of children of alcoholics that will not drink. They won't even try it because they've seen the effects of it. I wonder that if it's like you see, cause chess is an obsessive game. Like I remember when Howard Stern was playing it and I would listen to him talk about it on the radio and about how he started hiring a coach and he was playing all the time and he's improving his rating and this and I was like, oh, this is eating up your mind. Like it's a game that gets in your bones.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  It, it really does because like the entry is not so easy, right? Like you don't like just get it immediately and you, you don't necessarily get enjoyment out of it immediately as you start to play. So you have to spend, you have to spend time on it. And then I think when you're trying to do something hard, then it becomes much more rewarding and it becomes, it's easier for that to become an obsession when, when you, you start to get that reward.

• 29:26Joe Rogan?

  So the good thing about that controversy with cheating was that I think it elevated the profile of chess because it became mainstream news. It was like a, a big issue. Did they like, I think there was a positive aspect of it in terms of the publicity of the game. Do you, do you agree with that?

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, for sure.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  I I think for for any for you know for any field of uh that's trying to to achieve something you know with with publicity, there's always going to be um a little bit of of a negative with what exactly we're we're connected with, right? Because this is uh everybody knows chess and cheating. But overall, I think it's been it's been massively massively positive. Um you know, hopefully, the the Netflix thing going coming up in a year, even though like

• 30:20Joe Rogan?

  Can you explain it to people?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's a not Netflix Untold documentaries. Basically, it's a series of uh sports documentaries and they're doing that. It's not something that I like wanted to necessarily be be part of. But I do recognize the fact that these things raise the profile of of of the game. And and you see now like every everywhere people people like it. Chess is showing up in people's algorithms on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, everywhere. So it's just like much more in the in the zeitgeist than it used to be.

• 30:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's it's certainly showing up on mine. It shows up on mine all of them, yours, right?

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:00Joe Rogan?

  But you've always been a giant chess fan.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Well, it's actually a newer thing, but when I when I got into it, it was just everything. Now it's what I do right before bed. I fall asleep. Usually I fall asleep during actual games online on my phone.

• 31:15Joe Rogan?

  You're driving crazy.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  How could that like? How could that happen?

• 31:20Joe Rogan?

  I'm exhausted.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  What do you do when you wake up? Oh, that's that's the yeah, no, it's total opposite.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  You wake up and you lost.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I I wake up and I look at the board and it said you resigned because I went over my time or whatever. I I just ran out of time.

• 31:34Joe Rogan?

  How many times have you resigned?

• 31:37Speaker 02

  It happens in embarrassing a lot amount. It's how I fall asleep now is playing chess. But what you will appreciate is that when I fall asleep playing chess, like when I fall asleep, I'm still playing the game in my dreams sometimes. And sometimes the game will go all night and it'll be like this never ending game and pieces will pop back up that have already gone.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  That that sounds amazing. Like I would like, obviously that would never happen to me. And like I, I, I, you know, I like to play a game of chess on my, on my, my phone or my iPad whenever I have some, whenever I have some time, especially like if I know that I have 15 minutes or whatever. And then if something comes up, like my wife tells me, like, I have to be somewhere. I have to do something. It's like, can you just finish the game? Like, no, I cannot resign the game.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  What are you talking about?

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, obviously that's different though.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't just resign. That's no, you gotta ride that bitch out.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:34Joe Rogan?

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• 33:15Joe Rogan?

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• 33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would be like psychologically torturous, right? Um, yeah, especially if it's if especially if I'm playing somebody whom I'm who is a little bit of a rival, but it's like, yeah, no, that's not gonna happen.

• 33:50Joe Rogan?

  No chance.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  I mean, because like every time like I lose games, it's it's a little bit of a story, right? In the chess world, so I prefer to happen as seldom as possible.

• 34:01Joe Rogan?

  I played a little bit of chess when I was young, but I never really got into it. But my real introduction where I got fascinated with chess was actually at a pool hall. Because people in the pool hall would play chess sometimes, but there was this one guy who went to jail. And in jail, he learned how to play chess with his head, in his in his mind. And then there was a young kid who was a grandmaster, who was like sixteen, seventeen years old, somewhere around that. Really, really good chess player, who kind of like lost his way and started hanging around in pool halls and gambling and being a weirdo. And I watched these two guys play chess with just words. And I was like, what are you doing? Like, what I was like, I think I was twenty two or twenty three at the time.

• 34:45Joe Rogan?

  And I was like, what are you doing? And they were explaining to me that they're playing chess, memorizing the board in their head. And I'm like, that's fucking crazy. And then I saw a video of you blindfolded, playing, how many people? How many, how many people did you play? Was the most people you've ever played blindfolded?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  I think I've played twelve, uh, but the world record is something like fifty. It's that's that's crazy.

• 35:11Joe Rogan?

  Twelve? You've played twelve people blindfolded?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, uh, for me, that's, as long as people are, uh, the people I'm playing are kind of decent at chess. That actually kind of make, that makes it easier, because it's easier to store the games when I recognize the patterns and so on. When people start making weird moves, I cannot really recognize. Oh, so this is another one, actually. This is a blindfold timed symbol, like there are fewer games. But what's difficult about these is that the moves do not come to me in a sequence. So like, uh, the presenter will tell me on. On board um two, E takes D five and then all of a sudden on board one, E six.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  And then on board, on board two again and so on. So that, that makes it a bit.

• 36:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so you have to jump back and forth. So in the other games, there's a sequence where the player, even though if they know what move they're gonna take, they must wait until their turn.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's kind of a normal way of playing, um, of playing a simul. I think the last time that I played a proper blindfold simul was at an event um in Vienna back in, I thi- I think twenty fifteen. And then I had some very nice but spicy Chinese food before the game. I, I sat down and like my stomach was acting up. I couldn't think. So I, I, I played for ten minutes. I realized that I cannot do this. I like, I ran away for, for fifteen minutes and then I came back. I finished, I finished the game. But ever, ever since that, um, it feels like,

• 36:51Speaker 01

  um, I've, like, I've done it, but it, and now it just seems incredibly, incredibly hard to, um, to do again, but.

• 36:59Joe Rogan?

  Do you prepare when you're doing something like this? When you're getting ready to do a blindfolded, multi-game thing?

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Not, not really, because it's, like, if, if my mind is on, then it's really not that hard, I feel. Um, so, no, uh, I, the, the preparation that I do is right there. I see my, my opponents, so like I assign a certain face to a certain seat, like a certain number and, and so on. Uh, so that's just about what, what I, uh, what I do.

• 37:33Joe Rogan?

  So you assign their face and you think of their face as they're playing?

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Face, like number one, it's that position.

• 37:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and so on.

• 37:43Joe Rogan?

  And are you? What are you seeing in your mind when you're envisioning the table? When you're looking at the board? Are you merely thinking of positions? Are you actually thinking of the pieces? Like, how are you breaking it down?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  No, I just see the chessboard in my head.

• 38:02Joe Rogan?

  You just see a completely 3D chessboard in your head?

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's... And then, when I'm playing a symbol, I just really think about one at a time and I kind of store the others away.

• 38:16Joe Rogan?

  But that's so crazy, like, when your five, six moves in and you're thinking of all these pieces moving around and you've got it remembered. You've completely memorized each position of 12 different boards.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like, the difficult part of it, that where things sometimes go wrong, is that... So generally, I remember all the games that I've played, but I don't remember every move. I remember, like, in broad strokes, what happened. And this is what can happen in these blindfold games as well sometimes. Like, I can remember everything that's going on, but maybe there's a pawn on the side that I cannot remember if it moved one square or not. That's the thing that can be difficult. And I do... We used to have these blindfold, like, professional tournaments, actually.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  That used to be, like, both fun but also totally exhausting. And then, we would play on a computer, so we'd have like a blank chessboard, where we would just click from one square to another and then, whenever your opponent moved, their move would pop up on the screen. And I've had... And also, the software will tell you if you're making an illegal move. So I've had people, like, lose track. And then you see them just clicking frenetically, trying to figure out what the position was. Like, there was one guy whom I played, like, he thought his rook was on a certain file, and if it was on that file, he would be able to save a draw.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  So I think he tried every single rook move on that file, hoping that the rook was there. Uh, but like, obviously, I knew that, that it, that it wasn't. Um, but, yeah, um, overall, I feel like, honestly, like, blindfold chess is, is a bit of a party trick in the sense that for the very top players, it's not that hard. But obviously, for non, like, serious chess players, it seems, um, it seems incredibly, um, uh, incredibly hard, but I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm sure that, for instance, like, solving Rubik's Cube is really, really easy for those who, who know how to do it quickly, right?

• 40:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  It still looks incredibly impressive for, for outsiders.

• 40:41Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen they used a computer with AI to do a Rubik's Cube in less than a second?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  No, I didn't see that.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 40:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, see if you can find it, Jamie. It's crazy. It just goes, and just spins it.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  I've never figured that shit out. That's crazy.

• 40:54Joe Rogan?

  It's a, there is a, a sequence of moves. If you follow a sequence of moves, you can actually get it to do it automatically.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 41:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, someone explained it to me once, and they did it, and I was like, what? I don't remember what it was, because I don't give a fuck.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:06Joe Rogan?

  It was just, you know, like, eight, eight times this way, eight times that way, eight times this, that, and you just keep doing it, and then eventually, it'll be all flattened out at a certain point in time. Yeah, but this computer does it, like.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  You do Rubik's Cube too?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, I, I'm talking out of my ass, like, I know. I think the world record is only like three seconds or something, like, it's, it's something absolutely insane.

• 41:30Joe Rogan?

  Imagine the time you could have spent building a business, raising a family.

• 41:36Joe Rogan?

  You're the fucking world record.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  All the same color, yes.

• 41:40Joe Rogan?

  It's so dumb.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Green, red.

• 41:43Joe Rogan?

  So dumb.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we, we all have to spend our time.

• 41:46Joe Rogan?

  Watch this, watch this computer do it.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 41:51Joe Rogan?

  How crazy is that? Ready, wait, go.

• 41:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, less than a second.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 41:58Joe Rogan?

  That is crazy. Show it again in real time?

• 42:10Joe Rogan?

  So give up, kids. Give up. Give up, the computer figured it out. That's a dumb game. But do you play other games as well?

• 42:19Speaker 01

  No, not that much. My parents sort of brainwashed me when I was young into thinking that computer games are no fun.

• 42:29Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:31Joe Rogan?

  But you're a grown man now. You've realized that's a lie.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have, but it's still...

• 42:36Joe Rogan?

  I can see you calling duty fucking people up with headphones on.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  The thing is like...

• 42:42Speaker 01

  The thing is, I actually got a... I got a Playstation recently. But like, my wife is playing GTA and all of these FPS games and I'm like playing some, you know, chill FIFA or something. So, but the thing about that is that

• 43:00Speaker 01

  I didn't really spend that much time on those things when I was little. Which I think was a good thing, like I was doing some sports and I was doing a lot of chess. Not so much school, but I kind of found time for everything else. And I think

• 43:20Speaker 01

  I think it was an important part of my chess education as well that I think some of the kids today are missing. That I actually learned chess on a physical board. I was able to practice from a fairly young age playing online. But I wasn't allowed to use the computer for more than a couple of hours a week, right? So I had to spend that really well playing chess. Otherwise, I would just sit there with my board, with my books and, you know, try and figure things out.

• 43:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the thing about video games is the narrative was always, "Video games are a huge waste of time. And if you do it, you're not going to get anywhere in life." The problem with that is now people make a lot of money playing video games. And they've also shown that there's some benefits from video games that leak over into other things. Like for instance, they found out that surgeons who play video games regularly make, what is it, like 25% less errors?

• 44:18Speaker 01

  37%.

• 44:19Joe Rogan?

  37% less errors. That's a... Like, I would feel like if there was a factor in medical school and they said, "Well, if you do not do this, you will make 37% more mistakes." They would force you. To engage in that, whatever it is, it's like whatever, whatever particular discipline that was like if you want to be a surgeon, you must do this. I would say if you want to be a surgeon, you should fucking play video games because these people are thirty seven percent less likely to screw up an operation.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  That's why I'm not a surgeon.

• 44:54Joe Rogan?

  But I'm saying it's like video games are not necessarily a waste of time and they've also shown there's cognitive benefits that can be gotten from playing video games on a regular basis. Things that would, which does make sense, but it just, it seems like a frivolous pursuit whereas chess is like a noble and very respected pursuit.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  I'm glad you say that like we've, we've officially, that, that is what chess has though that it, it is very respected among the general population and it does have that different standings from, from another, a lot of other games. It's like, I'm not here to shit on video games for sure, like, I, I know like, like you do that, there, there are studies that show that it's, that it can be, be helpful, I think with, with anything. Um, if you're obsessed over something, the only thing you will become good at is that particular thing like I have with, um, with, with chess. I just think for me specifically,

• 45:53Speaker 01

  for me specifically, it was probably a, um, a good thing that that made me just sit and focus on, on chess rather than,

• 46:02Speaker 01

  rather than do all sorts of, um, other things.

• 46:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, most certainly, because video games are very, very addictive. I had to stop playing video games. We used to have a whole local area network at our old studio where we'd all play Quake. And it was a real problem, like I was just, I just wanted to end the podcast so I could go play Quake. And then we'd play for hours and eventually got to a point where I was like, okay, I gotta quit again, just cold turkey, never again, leave it alone. Cause they're just too fun and if you have other things, you have obligations. Like chess, like you're an actual professional chess player. Call of Duty or whatever you're playing, Quake, it's gonna eat your time.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  I remember like when when I first moved out, um, you know, I was technically a chess professional, but I didn't have a lot of time to, um, yeah, um, I had a lot of time to kill when I when I was home. So, and I got myself a PlayStation, played a ton of FIFA back then. And there was, there was a GameStop near me that like they, they made a lot of money of me just buying new controllers all the time because I would throw them into, to, to the wall. But I, I, I, I have that same personality that I become, become obsessed with things. And then I, I, yeah, same, I just have to quit cold turkey. That's the only way that that works.

• 47:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I, I think, I mean, this is why I've avoided golf and like Tony's big on golf and so is Jamie. It's like, I see what it is, I'm sure I would love it, but I don't have that time, the time during the day.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Well, I can tell you that I always thought, well, I, I wouldn't say that, but I always thought that I would get into golf later in life. And then I decided more or less a year ago that I was gonna start. And now I am obsessed and it's all I wanna do.

• 47:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  I can, I can, I can 100%, I can 100% relate. But my wife knows that I'm so happy when I come back from golf that it's like better if I get to do it. Uh, quite often.

• 48:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, even if you fake being happy so you can keep doing it.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I, yeah.

• 48:11Joe Rogan?

  They say that's ruining Canelo Alvarez. You know, there's been a lot of criticism in the boxing world and particularly in like, you know, some of his promoters and things along those lines where they've criticized his, his, he's obsessive. He plays every day, even when he's in camp.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a tricky thing. If they do that with him and I obviously see them do it with Trump, but there, you have to golf to understand what golfing does to you. It appears from the outside that people are drinking and smoking pot and having a good old time out there and giggling around, farting around with their friends. But the touch grass meditative element, it truly is like he was saying, like, I'm in such a crazy good mood after golf. Everybody at the comedy club can notice it, like, it's like an upper, it gives you a massive burst of energy. So like the, the.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  What am I thinking of? The, you know, just the bad reputation that golf has. Like, I would want my president golfing a couple of times a week. Knowing the effects that it gives you, a much clearer mind, a big burst of energy. You would think it would be exhausting walking around the woods or grass for four hours, but for some reason, it's totally the opposite. It's, it's, whether it's the sun, the grass, the this, the that, the differential, going from a powerful thing to a mid-range thing to the delicate touch and accuracy of putting, these repetitive things. For some reason, it's a mind clearer and kind of an energy giver. Whereas video games and other things make you depressed.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  And I don't, you know, it's almost impossible to be down or depressed after golfing.

• 49:58Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Well, it's certainly a stimulating game, right? Because you're, it's hand-eye coordination, calculation, you know, managing the, the lay of the land, the way the rolls of the hills are.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:12Joe Rogan?

  And all those factors. I think like, this is something that I think people genuinely need in life.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:18Joe Rogan?

  And I think it's one of the reasons why people respect chess so much is because they know how difficult it is and they know that all this is going on and that they see you two just staring at the board, looking at these pieces and calculating this insane number of possibilities that could emit from each individual move. It's like, that stimulation, when, when someone gets good at a game, I think it's very valuable for you. And I think that can apply to all sorts of things in life. So I agree with you. I would want the president to play golf, too.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:50Joe Rogan?

  I'd want him to find something, whatever it is. Find a thing that you can excel at other than just being the president.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, even if it was Call of Duty.

• 50:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  If, if it.

• 50:59Joe Rogan?

  That would be wild. I wouldn't want that. The president going, "Fuck yeah!" Ta ta ta ta ta.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  We had that. It was George W. Bush. And there was no video game system.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Ah, it's dark.

• 51:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it is dark. Well, I mean, they literally use PlayStation fucking controllers when they were using drones. I don't know if they still do it now. I think now they have more sophisticated setups, but that one of the reasons why they were using them was because so many people were accustomed to those. You get kids that have been playing, you know, Madden 10 hours a day for 15 fucking years. And then you give them the same controller and they're like, oh yeah, I could fucking drop some bombs on people. Like, not a problem at all.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Ah, that's, that's horrible.

• 51:40Joe Rogan?

  It's dark.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and all of a sudden, like, these kills that you have in a video game, like, you, you think of it in the same way, like.

• 51:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, it really haunts those people, apparently. There's a very specific type of PTSD that drone operators get. It's, it's, because they see the people sometimes for days in advance. So they're doing surveillance, they're waiting for the moment when they get the green light, they see these people, they see them with their families, they're watching them from above, and then, and then they drop the bombs on them, and then they cease to exist, and this is happening on completely the other side of the world.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, they just press X on their controller.

• 52:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But if you want to get good at that, you probably play, play video games. It's a job for everybody out there, Magnus.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  I, I, I'm, I'm also trying to think, like, could you get surgeons to be drone operators? Probably doesn't work that way.

• 52:30Joe Rogan?

  No, probably doesn't work that way. Well, at best surgeons just, whatever hand-eye coordination that they have is probably so intricate, that they could probably excel at anything. They'd probably get good at video games. Like, a very good surgeon who's never played video games would probably get really good at video games really quickly. Because the, the communication between your hands.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  There's also probably a tricky part of that stat where the younger people are the ones playing the video games that probably wouldn't slip up with their hands as easily as an older surgeon that has never played video games, right?

• 53:02Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, yes. Right, right, right. Yeah, that's a good point. It's, it's, you know, it's interesting that chess is uniquely the game that's respected. Like, probably, out of all, even if you played golf, people could think, oh, you're a fuck-up. You say you played chess, like, oh, that must be an intelligent man. It's probably the most uniquely rewarded game in terms of the, the way the people respect it in society.

• 53:30Joe Rogan?

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• 55:16Speaker 01

  We're very lucky that it has this unique position. Whether that's deserved, I don't know. But there's just something about the fact that it's, you know, it's a very, very simple game, but it's, it's still so infinitely difficult. The thing now, the thing now though is that we're trying to actually make it a bit more, more difficult for a classical form of chess. Because now computers are so strong. Preparation has gone so far that...

• 55:51Speaker 01

  The thought of like sitting down at the board and just thinking on your own from the very get go, it's not, it's not there anymore. Anybody who's really good at chess, like they, um, anybody can, can learn the best openings like very quickly. Even if you go like ten, twenty years ago, um, you could play,

• 56:16Speaker 01

  um, you, you could play for instance in the chess Olympiad, which is the, which is the, the biggest team, like nation tournament in the world. And you could play against the, the best player from, from let's say Colombia and you know, you would know that they have a certain skills, but they might not have the same set of openings, right? Now, all of these, like there are kids everywhere, um, and they just like they know their stuff so well. So now we're like testing out new formats, uh, one that we call freestyle, which is basically, there are nine hundred sixty starting, possible starting positions if you shuffle the pieces on the first rank.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  And basically like you start out, you just draw the position ten minutes before the game, no preparation whatsoever. And you basically start with, like in gaming, a new map every single game. Um, so that's sort of for the traditionalists, that's not like the same, the same game. So like, there are some people who don't like it, but for the professionals, it's an, it's a chance like to, um, to use, um, to, to use their, their skills because otherwise chess is moving like it's become, becoming faster. Like chess used to be, it used to be an art, science, everything.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  With the way things are now, it's, it's just very fast and it's all games, sports and so on. Like, I feel like with, with thinking from the very first move, you're bringing some of the other factors, um, back as well.

• 57:54Joe Rogan?

  What I think is really unique about today is that kids today who are coming up are not just studying from books and from coaching, but you can watch so many great games instantaneously, anytime you want. This is what's so unique about today. And I think it applies to all sports. I think it applies to all games. I think it applies to all, I think it applies to stand-up comedy as well. So I think it's one of the reasons why the younger guys are so good. It's like you get to see very high level stuff, which gets into your mind that this is how to play at a very early age, and you can be obsessed and just absorb so much more.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you see there are such different approaches as well, even with the kids. Like, I had a training camp a few years ago with a kid called Alireza Firousheh. He plays for France now, but he's from Iran originally. I think he was about 14 then. And my chess coach has had like recommended that we bring him in because he said that this is the most talented kid out there. So we have this camper. Typically, everybody has their laptop, and there's a chessboard in the middle where you sort of, and you sort of look at your own thing, and then some things together on the board, and you throw out ideas, mostly

• 59:14Speaker 01

  for openings, but also sometimes other little exercises and so on. And this kid, he would have his laptop where he would analyze a certain position, and then he would play games like for money on that same site at the same time, so that he could buy cloud engine times, because like the very best engines, they're stronger, like if they're in the cloud than from your own laptop generally. So he would buy time for that by playing games, like one-minute games on that server. He would play.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Five minute games on another server and he would analyze with us on the board. And he was still like following everything like he had no problems whatsoever, just being there. So like it's just, um, yeah, that's, that's one way of doing it. Like he basically became one of the best players in the world by just constantly playing chess all the time. And mostly like really quick games. And then you have the current classical world champion from, from India, Gukesh. Like he doesn't play casual games at all. He just studies his ass off all the time. Um, and he's also like, he's not good at, at, at rapid chess. He's not good at blitz.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  He's not good at other, other forms. Uh, but he has, he has made all his study, studies about, uh, classical chess. Uh, he didn't even own, uh, like chess software on his computer before he was like 13.

• 1:00:57Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  And he was a grandmaster.

• 1:00:59Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  At that time, um, but it's, it's interesting to see that there are such different ways. Um, to develop even, even these days.

• 1:01:11Joe Rogan?

  I think, I just think it's fascinating, human beings' capacity to excel at things. And that you really only know when someone pushes it a little bit further. Like this guy playing these, all these games simultaneously. You know what I mean? It's like when you, when, if everybody's doing it one way, if everybody's only playing, you know, a few games a day and hanging out. Like you'll probably all stay at the same level. But if you've got one fucking psychopath in the group that's online and is playing and is reading books and is, that guy's gonna pass everybody. And then everybody else realizes like, oh, that's possible. You, I could have gotten as good as him. I better really bear down.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you, you could also see that in these guys playing style. The guy who has been playing like constantly all the time from when he, he was little. He has fantastic instincts, especially with, with little time. He just knows where the pieces go. And like, he's the only one of the kids who has that kind of feeling. Um, the Indian guy, on the other hand, the, from the way he studies, he's like. During games, like he's meticulous, he calculates, like he sees every position as a problem he has to solve. More than, oh, what does my intuition tell me? Oh, I'll do, I'll do this. Uh, it's like, for him, it's more, well, this is possible, this is possible.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Let me like try and uh see this all, all the way, all the way through. So it's just, yeah, it's, it's just very, very different and um they, they, they call it like the tortoise and the hare.

• 1:02:48Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Uh, sometimes and then uh in certain situations, the tortoise will win and other situations, the hare will win.

• 1:02:56Joe Rogan?

  Right. So in, so there's different types of tournaments and there's some tournaments that have no time limit for, for moves?

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Uh, there, there's always a time, there's always a time.

• 1:03:09Joe Rogan?

  What's a traditional time limit?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Uh, what it used to be in, in chess was um you'd have two hours for forty moves. Then you would have an hour for the next twenty moves and then half an hour for the rest of the game. So a maximum of seven hours.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  And uh that form is still, is still being played. Uh, and then you have faster forms of chess, which is blitz chess, which is usually five or, or three minutes. And rapid chess, uh, which is uh somewhere from, from ten to uh to, to thirty minutes.

• 1:03:43Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever, before you were known, did you ever go to Washington Square Park and play those hustlers?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I actually went there in um twenty, uh, twenty ten, but I think, I think some people recognized me back, back then as well. I think it's a bit of a myth though, um, how, uh, how good they are like.

• 1:04:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  They're, they're, they're like, okay, but they're not like.

• 1:04:04Joe Rogan?

  Your level.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  No, they're not grandmaster level. There was one guy though, I don't remember, I don't remember what was um. Uh, what's the name of, like it's up by um, you know, Columbia University. There's a park up there where they're playing chess as well. There I played against a guy. Uh, who played like a very strange opening as well. Like he put like just a couple of pawns. One square forward and then he started developing his pieces very slowly. So at fir- at first I thought this guy has no idea what he's doing. Then it turned out like he actually had a system. So after like ten fifteen moves, I was in a lot of trouble.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Uh, and then, and then like the game became super concrete and tactical and, and, and I, and I won. Um, but it, yeah, it struck me that this guy like had. It just, I think he just played in a park all his life. So he had developed a certain system.

• 1:05:02Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  That was actually like kind of effective if you don't know what you're doing uh against it. So that was, that was kind of, kind of interesting. I, I'm like, he was fairly old, so I'm sure he'd played chess his whole life without ever learning any kind of opening theory or, or something like that. He just had, yeah, he was doing his own thing.

• 1:05:20Joe Rogan?

  That's fascinating. Did you, can you ever learn something from people that have an unorthodox approach like that?

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, for sure. Um, it's, it's happened several times. Um. There was, um, there was, like my dad used to play a ton of chess at home. Like he used to have a home office and then certain times he'd appear to be, um, focused on his, in his work, but I knew like a certain look in his eye, which told me that he was actually playing chess. So I would go over and, and watch. He was like, no, no, go away. Uh, and then at some point where I was already a lot better than him, um, he played a certain opening as, as white. And I told him like, what, what is this opening? Like, where did you learn this? And he said, well, you taught me the very same opening, but with the black pieces.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  So I thought I was gonna play it as white, like with, with, um, one tempo more, right? Because you're playing, you're moving first. I was like, I'm like, I never like, I'm one of the best players in the world and I never thought of that. So I actually took up that line and I, and I used it, uh, I used it with success against some of the best players in the world.

• 1:06:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  So I've like, I've, I don't know if that variation has a name. Like I've seen some other players play it afterwards as well. Uh, but I just call it, um, the Henry Carlsen variation.

• 1:06:44Joe Rogan?

  That's really interesting. Your dad must be pretty proud of that.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  He, he is very proud of it.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  It's funny though that my dad and my sisters, two of my sisters, they played a bit of competitive chess as well. I think at some point in time, like they wanted to learn a couple of openings, so I taught them a couple of openings. And I think all of them just never played anything else, basically. So they certainly didn't have the same kind of passion to study, but I'm glad I was able to push them into some decent lines.

• 1:07:23Joe Rogan?

  How do you decide what opening to choose?

• 1:07:29Joe Rogan?

  And do you ever decide an opening and go, "Fuck, I shouldn't have done that one"?

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, sometimes. Honestly, sometimes I don't know what to do, so I just randomize. Because I think at a certain time, like you might think that against this opponent, you should play a little bit more of an aggressive opening. But then maybe I feel good about my tournament standings, I don't want to mess that up. So it's easy to go for a safer approach when like the optimal approach would be a bit more aggressive. And then like if you randomize it, then you will occasionally go for the more aggressive approach.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  So that's what I sometimes do. It's just I randomize it and then I just sort of accept the outcome. And it makes me more unpredictable, it makes me harder to prepare against them as well. So that's what I sometimes do. It's not like, it's not going to be out there, but it's going to be between like two or three options that I think are roughly equivalent. They're just stylistically different.

• 1:08:38Joe Rogan?

  So when you say randomized, like how many openings do you have that you pursue on a regular basis?

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Oh, it's it's hard to that's hard to say. Probably probably with whites, I have like uh five or six options that I can that I can go to, but only like two or three that I I feel really good about. And I think similarly um similarly with black.

• 1:09:05Joe Rogan?

  So and then when you randomize, you just go in your head and one of them stands out for you and you say, okay.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  No, I just like have an app on my phone.

• 1:09:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  I just roll the dice. Yeah.

• 1:09:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow. Wow.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  And I I think hon- honestly, a lot of people could could benefit from that because you you agonize over these minute decisions, like you spend a lot of mental energy before a certain game, agonizing over what opening you're going to play. And if you know that you you're going to make a decent choice, but you leave all the agonizing to to like, there's nothing because it's it's left to to challenge, it makes it makes it a lot a lot easier.

• 1:09:49Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense. When now you were saying mental energy is, do you you were talking about the spicy Chinese food incident. But do you uh normally have a a method of like when you eat vitamins you take, is there certain things that you do to optimize your your your clarity?

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, like if if I'm playing if I'm playing an early early afternoon game, for instance, like starting at one, I I try to eat like one big meal uh before that was just generally uh like a big omelet with some some kind of salad and.

• 1:10:27Joe Rogan?

  But you eat pretty clean before a big.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I usually I usually do. Um sometimes like after games, like I will eat something like even some desserts and so on. Uh but before the games, I I try and keep it keep it fairly fairly clean. And I actually learned that when I was when I was little, like sometimes like my parents, they were generally quite strict about sweets and so on, but sometimes I would eat sweets during tournament, then you know, my um my blood sugar would drop like crazy and I would start making making mistakes. Uh and so that's something that I I learned quite quickly that I shouldn't do.

• 1:11:07Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever mess around with vitamins or nootropics or anything like that? Things that nutrients that help memory?

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  No, I I think um I I think it's a little bit about about the way that I was was raised. Like I'd never take medicine unless I I kind of have to. I don't really take supplements or or um or or anything like that. So um I probably I I probably should. Uh like it's it's not a bad idea. Like my wife is half American, like she's completely different. Like she takes five kinds of vitamins every every single day. She's very meticulous about it, but yeah, I don't know. I've never um.

• 1:11:51Joe Rogan?

  Just get her to make you up some little packets.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 1:11:54Joe Rogan?

  I think it'll probably have an impact on you. I mean, it's extraordinary if you think about how good you are without it. Like any little thing that could give you a very slight edge. And I think that vitamins for sure give you a slight edge, particularly in um nootropics. There's a bunch of different vitamins that have been shown uh through clinical trials to improve cognitive performance. You know, um theanine, there's uh uh acetylcholine, a bunch of different things that enhance memory that are essentially just nutrients.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  What's the new thing that people are are doing like uh creatine or something like that?

• 1:12:29Joe Rogan?

  Ketamine?

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  No, no, no, not ketamine. Uh, no, no, no, it's not ketamine. Um creatine?

• 1:12:36Joe Rogan?

  Creatine.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  Creatine.

• 1:12:37Joe Rogan?

  Creatine, yes. Creatine is uh was a bodybuilding supplement that was almost akin to steroids in the nineteen nineties. People would think it was cheating and then they realized, well, it's just a component of food. But uh one of the things that creatine does that's very extraordinary is um it aids in performance when you're sleep deprived. So if you ever find yourself sleep deprived and you have to do something where you have to use your mind, creatine is a fantastic supplement for that.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I woke up today and like I think my my watch said it was that my sleep was like I got fifteen. Like I slept for five hours, but I got fifteen minutes of REM sleep. Like it was really, really bad, so that's what I could have. I could I could have used that um uh cause I was playing a chess tournament earlier today, so I could I could have used that, but.

• 1:13:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, creatine is something that everybody should take. Men, women, children, everybody should take creatine. It's a really good supplement, super safe. And it does, it aids in strength and muscle recovery and stuff like that, but it also has a lot of cognitive benefits. Just generally, just like a very good, safe supplement to take. What does it say here, Jane? Cognitive functions. Studies suggest that creatine supplementation may improve cognitive function, including memory, attention, and reasoning. It may increase brain energy levels by boosting endocine triphosphate production, ATP, which is essential for brain function. Creatine has antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties that may protect brain cells from damage caused by oxidative stress and neurotoxins. May help produce, see, it does a lot of different things. If you Google it, there's a ton of different benefits.

• 1:14:09Joe Rogan?

  I take it in gummy form. I take creatine gummies every day. They're delicious, it's easy. I just pop a bunch of them.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Five milligrams?

• 1:14:16Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. We have any of those try creates here? I don't think so. Yeah, I think I have them out there. But they're great. You know, it's easy. I put a bag in my car, take them all the time. I've noticed a difference. I just think with a guy like you, well, your brain is everything. But you're kicking ass, so like, why listen to me?

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  No, no, no, but.

• 1:14:34Joe Rogan?

  Eat cheeseburgers and fuck around and see what happens.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  No, but it is the thing, though. On certain days, I sort of just accept that.

• 1:14:44Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:11Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  You know, my brain is not going to work.

• 1:16:48Joe Rogan?

  As good.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Work is good. And it's frustrating, especially if you got a, if you got a big game and you know that you're starting down 2-0 because your brain is not working the way it's supposed to be.

• 1:16:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I feel that with podcasting all the time. And the real danger is if I do that, if my brain's not on full tilt and I'm talking to a scientist, and I'm like, oh, like, we have to talk about quantum physics like this. I have to like, have good questions, have to be able to follow what you're saying because it's so esoteric. You know, it's weird that the brain just doesn't always work exactly how you want it to.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  And honestly, chess is one of the worst things to do, sleep deprived, because I think creativity usually is enhanced when you're, when you're not feeling well, when you're, when you're sleep deprived, but that's generally not what you need in chess. Like, you need to minimize mistakes, you need precision. And all of, all of my intuition, all of that, is just so much worse when I'm not feeling, not feeling on top of, on top of my game, so.

• 1:17:51Joe Rogan?

  Do you have a specific thing you do when you're feeling not on top of your game? Do you like, double check things in your mind? Do you have a process? You follow?

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  I just try to play like a simpler game where it's not as where it's not as complicated, really.

• 1:18:08Joe Rogan?

  And when you're feeling good, then you go for it?

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  No, honestly, when I feel like good, I don't think about these things. It's just a state of it's just a state of flow. Uh, where I know I know how much risk to take. Like I, I, I, I just. Yeah.

• 1:18:25Joe Rogan?

  So what is the mindset? Like if you're in a world championship game and you it's down to these like what? What is the state of mind like when you're in the middle of it?

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Honestly, when I'm at my best, I'm just like pure laser focused and.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  I'm just calm and not thinking about anything other than.

• 1:18:50Joe Rogan?

  Just in the moment?

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  Just in the moment, yeah.

• 1:18:52Joe Rogan?

  Just in the work is already done. You already know the game. So now it's just reacting and moving and calculating.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I had, um, I had a game and twenty last classical world championship I played in twenty twenty one where. Um, the first five games were drawn. Honestly, like I could have probably been down at that point as well. Sixth game was a super, super long game, um, almost eight hours. And I think for the last hour and a half, two hours, I was pretty short on time, but. I remember like I was just so focused and so calm. And afterwards, I was just like, yeah, I could have kept going forever. Like I was just there.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  And it was exactly what I needed. I ended up grinding out, grinding out when and and in in those classical games, like once you get a lead like that is so big because it's so hard to win. Actually win games at that that level with that level of preparation. Um, so that was, that was really big, but yeah, that's the I've only I I've only had, I feel like a few days where I feel like. I'm just like completely in the moment. Usually it's a bit more messy than that, but like when it happens, it's just. Um, yeah, the best feeling.

• 1:20:12Joe Rogan?

  That's amazing. It's only been a few days where you've been fully in the moment.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  I'm rarely happy after I play. I'm happier now, like I'm honestly like my standards for myself like are a little bit lower, have gone down a little bit the older I've gotten. Because I sort of accept that I don't, I don't have, my brain is not as fast as it used to be. So I'm going to have occasional letdowns. So my top level is like, I think, as good as it's ever been, or at least very, very close to. But like the average level is, it's just, it's just too hard when your brain is not that fast anymore.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  But, but, but yeah, generally, I, I'm, I'm always thinking, well, yeah, I could have always done something better, like, you always miss some things, but I always feel like, yeah, there are avoidable mistakes that I'm, I'm still making.

• 1:21:15Joe Rogan?

  So this, as you've gotten older, this lowering expectations, is that a recognition of the fact that being hard on yourself over minute details doesn't benefit you? And that you've just had a more healthy approach?

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. It just makes everything a bit, bit easier. Also, honestly, like the randomizing opening choices has made, has made things easier as, as well, everything just to, just sort of, yeah, lower the pressure a bit.

• 1:21:49Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever consulted a mental coach or, you know, someone who works with people on mindsets to try to capture what is happening when you are in that complete total flow state of laser focusness? And try to recreate that? Because there's a bunch of different mind coaches that will tell you for a bunch of different pursuits, that what you have to do is, when you get to that state, whatever that state is, recognize that you're there, and then try to get a map of the territory, and try to will yourself back into that thing.

• 1:22:33Joe Rogan?

  But then there's another school of thought that says, no, it just has to happen organically. And that you just have, you just need to be obsessed and focused. And take care of yourself and meditate and just when it comes, it's going to come, but it just you have to accept that it's a gift. And it's just not always going to be there.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm definitely in the latter camp. I've talked to people who have suggested mental coaches like plenty of plenty of times, both in in the past and and more recently as well. I've just like always been worried that somebody's gonna mess something up in in in my head.

• 1:23:11Joe Rogan?

  Paralysis by analysis.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that that's really, that's really what it is for me. So I feel at some point, I'm I'm just like more or less content with the way things things are that most days that I'm playing, I'm going to be fairly good. On some days, I'm going to be at my very best. Other days, I'm going to be very far from from my best and it's it's sort of. Yeah, it's sort of the the way it is. I I I'm much definitely much more open to doing things to prevent me from having tho- those very worst days because that those are the ones that really um that really hurt you, especially now that we're playing a lot of faster tournaments.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  Uh where there are where there are um knockouts, where basically like if you have one bad day, you're you're out and it doesn't matter. Um like back in the days with classical tournaments, like you could you could have a really bad day. Uh but then you can always bounce back, but nowadays it's not it's not that easy.

• 1:24:12Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever try to map out what are the factors that lead you to hit that state that's that flow state? Do you ever try to think about your day? Like, what did I do? What did I eat? How how did I sleep? Did I avoid toxic people around me? Did I stay offline? Like, what did I do that allowed me to get to that spot?

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I mean, doing everything sort of right before the game definitely helps like getting um getting getting good good sleep, like reading, reading a book instead of being on on some sort of device before I go to go to sleep. Um then just focusing as little as possible on on chess before um before the game, definitely.

• 1:24:53Joe Rogan?

  Really? Little as possible?

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:55Joe Rogan?

  Cause you want it to be fresh in your mind? You want it to be something exciting?

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just I just wanna have like two or three ideas of what I'm what I'm going to play and not like.

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  I just don't wanna like use mental energy that I could have used on the game before.

• 1:25:16Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  So, um, I think one of my better tournaments that I played, um, it's, I used to play every year at this seaside resort in, in the Netherlands and it's in the middle of winter, so it's not very resort-like. It's just rainy and windy and there's basically nothing there, except this big tournament that's been there for, for eighty years and it's for three weeks every, every January. So for me, there's not, there's not a lot to do. Uh, so what I would do like every day is I'd, um, I'd, um, I'd wake up, I'd go for a walk.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Um, and then I would watch like thirty to forty-five minutes of NBA highlights from the day before. Look at chess for, for fifteen minutes, whatever my coach has sent me of preparation that we discussed the day before. Um, eat and then, and then go play. And that worked really, really well. It's just keeping it as simple as possible, honestly.

• 1:26:26Joe Rogan?

  So get inspired a little bit, a little bit of energy from watching NBA highlights, right?

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:31Joe Rogan?

  Just a tiny amount of information from the coach, just like get your brain locked in, but not too much energy. Don't focus too much on it.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of people like they do, they will spend three, four hours preparing on a game on that very day. Uh, and it like, it can be beneficial, like if your opponent goes into specifically the lines that you've prepared and, and so on, but overall, I think, um...

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, having a fresh mind is so important. And I'm also like, even if I haven't had the perfect preparation, I'm really good at just blocking everything out, forgetting everything that's happened, and just focusing there and then. But it's still not as good, of course, as just being in a good state of mind.

• 1:27:25Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever get to the point where you feel burnout? Or you wanna just take days off, a week off, and not think about chess, not touch a chessboard? Or is it just constantly playing in the background no matter what you do?

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  But I really love it, so.

• 1:27:41Joe Rogan?

  Why take time off?

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, why take? No, no, no, I'm fine with taking breaks from tournaments and so on. But having like, at least days, several days in a row, without like, looking at a chess game,

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  or, I mean, I don't have to play every day, but not having a, yeah, not looking at anything, like, not reading some chess stuff, or like, yeah, I mean, it's my favorite hobby, so. I don't, yeah, I don't see why I would wanna do that.

• 1:28:18Joe Rogan?

  That's probably why you're one of the best of all time, if not the best. I mean, that's a beautiful approach, right? If you can find a thing that you love so much, that even though you do it all the time, and you've done it since you were a child, you're still obsessing and loving it.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do have those moments where I just, I just take a breath and I'm, and think about how lucky that I am. And there are just moments where I just, sort of, I wouldn't say rediscover my love for the game, but where I just think like, I'm obsessed with this game, and I'm completely fine with that.

• 1:28:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a beautiful way to live your life. If people can find a thing like that in their life, that really is the key to an enjoyable life. If the thing that you do all the time, you're obsessed with, and we talk about it all the time at our comedy club, where we're all in the green room, we're like, we are so lucky that this is actually what we do for a job. And pretty much everybody who's good at it is obsessed with it, and they think about it all the time. It's kind of the only way. But I'd need time off sometimes because I think that's different because it's always different ideas and different things you're working on. Sometimes you need time just to refresh your perspective. But with a game like chess, I guess you don't really need time off.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  No, I think, again, it's different for different people, but I don't know, I don't feel, I don't feel like it takes away energy. It just gives me joy and energy when I do that. Like, I will just, on a certain day, I will just log into chess.com and observe random people play, and that is something I can do and be very happy about it. Yeah, it's just the way I am.

• 1:30:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're just very fortunate. You've found a thing that you really locked into. It's a, that perspective is very important for people to recognize, like the perspective of gratitude, of appreciation, that you're so fortunate to have found something. People go their whole lives and never find a thing that they're truly, absolutely passionate about. And for a guy like you, I mean, it's a shiny example for people, I think. I think that's one of the things that I enjoy the most about super high performers, is that they provide an insane amount of inspiration to other people. When someone sees you play chess at the highest level, or sees, you know, Michael Jordan play basketball, or whatever

• 1:30:46Joe Rogan?

  it is, you get this feeling of what human beings can do, and it elevates your own expectations of yourself and of people around you.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I've thought about it many times, like, what am I actually, like, doing with my life that's useful to other people? And it always comes back to that every time that I hear that people are inspired by what I do. Maybe it helped them through, like, a difficult time to watch my games and to get into rediscover or find the love for the game. That's really, that's really nice. And again, in the process, I'm just... Doing doing what I what I love, right? And that's that's really what people wanna wanna see from me is just competing and and doing well at chess. So that's that's also what I'm giving

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  as as often as possible.

• 1:31:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's what people want out of life is something that they love, that they do, that they're very good at, and they get recognized for it. And when a person like you does it and does it publicly, and it's inspiring, it's a great gift for other people. I mean, it truly is. Who's been like, are there particular players that you really enjoy watching play? And particular styles that you enjoy?

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  I think my favorite probably player of all time is is sort of the young Kasparov before before he became world champion. The thing is, like, what I find fascinating about that is that he played with a style that was so unique and so dynamic that that I know that I could never replicate it. It's just not the way that I I play. So that's something I I admire a lot. Usually, I'm whatever I'm into, like, be it soccer, or golf, or basketball,

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  or whatever, like, I admire, like, what people do, not necessarily like it's about the people themselves. So that's the way it has been for me in in chess as well, that I try to like, learn from from people's games and what they what they do. And when I talk to them. And I've been very fortunate about about that, being able to study with with Gary back in the day, and Anand, who was the world champion before me. Because it's it's only then when like, when you when you study, like, you talk to them, like, you understand, like, how good they really are, and how much they they understand. For instance, with Anand, I had a training session in 2008 where

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  We had both played a tournament where I'd done reasonably well and he had sort of towards the end, he had mailed it in, but he was preparing for the classical world championship. So we, I, I think I had two day, days off and he was living outside Madrid. And so I went to Madrid for a couple of days because the other tournament was in the north of Spain. Then I, I went to his house and as soon as like that training camp started, it's like something just switched with him and he was, he was just so focused. We played a bunch of training games and from being this guy who seemed completely disinterested

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  in this other tournament, all of a sudden like he was crushing me, like he had a massive plus score in our games and it felt like everything we analyzed, he was just, he just had a much deeper understanding of the game. It seemed that he was faster tactically and everything and it made me like appreciate like how good, uh, how good he actually, um, actually was.

• 1:34:45Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:10Joe Rogan?

  And right now, get 10% off at tecovas.com/rogan when you sign up for email and texts. When you are playing someone like that and you're getting your ass kicked,

• 1:36:24Joe Rogan?

  does this inspire you and enact change in your game? Or does it, does it not change your game? You just do the same game, but more focused?

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think it's more of, more of the latter. It was just a reality check for me because I thought at that point that I was,

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  I, I was ranked, I think, third in the world. I had very briefly been ranked number one already at that point, like for, for a week. And I thought before that, I thought I was maybe one of the best two, three players in the world. And it made me realize that I wasn't and that maybe I was able to have better results than my actual level because of, because of youth, energy and optimism, right? And that made me just, yeah, it just made me realize that I have a lot, lot to learn and that I should be, I should be patient and not expect everything to, to sort of, to sort of come that fast.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  Because at that point, I'd had a year of more or less constant rise. I was, yeah, it's just winning, uh, winning tournaments. Every time I would lose a game, I was just believe that I could strike back immediately. And, um, I, I, and I like, I realize now that I was just, I was delusional. I thought I was a lot better than, than what I was. And that was probably why I was having so, such good results.

• 1:37:59Joe Rogan?

  Because you're so. Confident.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  Because I was so confident. Uh, but having like a little bit of a reality check, I think helped me later to actually um, understand uh, the game a bit better. But I still, I I've still taken away that I think in chess, like the optimal state when you're playing a game is some somewhere between optimistic and delusionally optimistic. Because if you're realistic, you're just never going to um, uh, to be opportunistic enough to to sort of exploit your opponent's mistakes.

• 1:38:35Joe Rogan?

  It's, I think another factor is the way you analyze things, that you were able to say, I was a little delusional. And even though I'm doing very well, I got to trust in this process of growth and development. And that it is a very, very long process.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And like, very soon after that, I started working with uh, with Garry Kasparov as well. And that made me realize that I know even less. Um, and uh,

• 1:39:05Joe Rogan?

  What can a guy like Garry Kasparov tell you that makes you know that you know even less?

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  Back then, um, it was really like my, my style has become a bit more dynamic over time. But back then, I like, I really, really lacked understanding of more dynamic positions in in chess. Like you can have,

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  you can have like more static or more dynamics pawn structures, like if there are a lot of uh, possible pawn breaks for for both sides and both kings are under attack, then it's sort of more um, more dynamic and tactical, or it could be more a lot more about gaining some minutes positional advantages. And that's sort of what I was excelling at, the latter. And working with him, um, it just improved sort of the the more dynamic part of my game a lot. And that helped me very much um, short term. And also, also it's helped me latter because it it improved my understanding of the game.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  My strength, main strength is still more in the more static structures. But

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  That work like made me so much more versatile and I still definitely profit from that.

• 1:40:32Joe Rogan?

  What is a coach for you today? Like what benefit is a coach today?

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  A couple of things. The main benefits that I have from my chess coach is opening work. That's like the low hanging fruit. That's really what you can get the most out of from game to game. A couple of other things, like my coach is also an old friend of mine. He's Danish, so we can communicate in the same language. And he's also just as obsessed with golf as I am. Every time like we have like a chess training camp, there's also a lot of golf being played.

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  So yeah, those are a few things, but chess wise, it's mainly about the opening work.

• 1:41:32Joe Rogan?

  And so it's essentially, he's obviously very good at chess as well, but it's essentially bouncing things off of each other and going over positions.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then he is very good at using chess engines to, you know, to get slightly different results than maybe others do.

• 1:41:53Joe Rogan?

  Do you occasionally or do you at all analyze other people's games and break them down together?

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  Not really. When it comes to analyzing other games, like it's more useful for me to look at what the engine is saying.

• 1:42:11Joe Rogan?

  Because the engines are just smarter than you.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that they are. And I'm good enough that I can interpret what the engine is saying to like understand why a certain thing a certain thing happened. So it's still interesting to analyze together as humans, but we always want to double check what we're saying with the engine.

• 1:42:35Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it fascinating that that's that's a gigantic factor now ever since Deep Blue, right?

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the thing about I I know like I don't know if you if you talk to Gary, but he has this whole thing with um with Deep Blue. I I I'm not sure if Deep Blue was actually uh better than than Gary, but um it yeah, it started. It started the the downfall of us of us humans when it when it comes to chess. And it's now been a long time where we just accepted that our computer overlords are are just a lot better. And there are serious benefits uh for for improving players, for for kids like the engines help people improve a lot faster. So that's that's a great thing.

• 1:43:23Speaker 01

  Uh additionally, people watching chess games, like one problem is that you cannot easily tell like. It's not like one guy is being punched and the other guy is um is punching like. It it takes some skill to uh to see what's going on, but with the help of the engines, like you could actually have a real time score all the time because it tells you who is who is winning and who who is not. So it becomes a lot easier to um um to to follow as well because honestly, like most people, when they can consume sports. They're mostly interested about who is going to win and who is going to lose. So now at least you can you can have that factor in chess that you can you can you can see that.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  And um um there it's it's very interesting for me to read what people were writing about computer chess. Um thirty, not not thirty, but like fifty, sixty years ago and so on, when there was an actual discussion whether computers could ever beat a grandmaster at chess. And now it's um um it's very much settled, of course.

• 1:44:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, they had that same discussion about Go, right?

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Well, Go is much much more complicated than than than chess, so um but I I I don't know what has happened since. Alpha Go, um, if, if like the best masters are still a little bit better or where the state is at?

• 1:44:52Joe Rogan?

  I think Go is better than everybody, uh, the, the computer is, but I think a new factor is that the computer has devised creative moves that were never used before, that have now been implemented. They're part of a general strategy, which I think they thought was very shocking.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  It's like kind of bluffing moves or?

• 1:45:15Joe Rogan?

  I do not know because I don't understand Go. I was just reading an article about the extraordinary leaps that AI has taken. And that one of the more shocking things was, was that it was able to beat the best players at Go, which they didn't, they thought it was like a long time coming.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I did watch, I watched the movie Alpha Go and I mean.

• 1:45:35Joe Rogan?

  How long ago was that?

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  That's like five, no, maybe like six, seven years ago.

• 1:45:40Joe Rogan?

  See, in AI time, that's like Stone Ages, which is so crazy.

• 1:45:44Speaker 01

  And I think like a year or two later, there was Alpha Zero in chess. Um, so chess engines, they were always like kind of built by humans and instructed by humans. Then Alpha Zero came along and, uh, which is a neural network that just, you know, learned chess on it, on its own. And it became more or less as good or maybe slightly, slightly worse than the best, um, traditional chess engines. What's interesting is that the neural networks played chess a lot, a lot more like humans.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  They were much less concerned about material factors. They were more uh, about like positional play and long-term thinking and so on, uh, because it was not based on brute force in the way that, um, um, that traditional engines would. And you would see funny, like they have computer tournaments as well with, with, with the best engine in the world. And you would, you will still see like, um, Lila Zero, that's sort of the clone of Alpha Zero because they discontinued that. Alpha Zero project after a while, um, it will make like elementary tactical blunders, almost.

• 1:47:06Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  Because it, I don't know, it doesn't have, it just. Things about chess differently than traditional engines, but it will also like do things that just confounds the very best chess engines in the world still. So that's very interesting to see. And like all the best coaches and players now, when you work with chess computers, like you always have both like a neural net and a traditional chess engine running, as well as some others who are now like hybrid, who are who have a little bit of both. It's just fascinating that it would make blunders.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't know if it's something about its its its search. I really, I really don't, I really don't know. But it would also make some fascinating decisions. Like when you promote a pawn, like you usually promote to a queen, because that's almost always the best, unless you sometimes want to promote a knight specifically to to give a check or sometimes, you know, to avoid stalemate, but that's that's less frequent. But then what Leila and AlphaZero would sometimes do is that they would promote to a different piece.

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  Because if it's a piece that's anyway going to be captured, just to give your opponent like a slight chance of making a mistake by making another move,

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  which is something like a human would never ever do. But it's like, it's really funny. A little bit of a parallel to what's going on in Go, I think, with this gamesmanship that is going on with with the new neural nets. That's crazy that it would just trick you. Yeah, it would try and trick you. Like, it probably wouldn't trick a human, because a human would be like.

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  That's weird. Okay, I'll just take it, whatever. But another engine. Oh, okay. Uh, well, I have another alternative that seems

• 1:49:17Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  equivalent, more or less. Maybe I'll go for, maybe I'll go for that.

• 1:49:22Joe Rogan?

  Um. Wow.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's very strange.

• 1:49:25Joe Rogan?

  So what are the best programs that people play on?

• 1:49:29Speaker 01

  Um, there are a few. Uh, there's one that was originally developed by Norwegian called Stockfish. That's still considered, uh, the best. So I think like, I think the best now is Stockfish, like Stockfish hybrid. That's part neural and part traditional engine. And then I think-

• 1:49:49Joe Rogan?

  So do you have to be connected online to use that?

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I mean, most people use either, um, most people use remote engines, like some kind of cloud service to have as much computing power as possible.

• 1:50:02Joe Rogan?

  So the kind of computing power that's on your phone, like, can you beat your phone at the highest level?

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  No, no chance.

• 1:50:09Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 1:50:11Speaker 01

  No chance, no chance.

• 1:50:12Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy, because Deep Blue, wasn't it like as big as a room?

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:17Joe Rogan?

  Deep Blue was a, wasn't like a stack of computers, right?

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  But I'm sure it's still less powerful than your, the computer on your phone is today.

• 1:50:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I know, it's just shocking.

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  Um, no, no, I have no chance against, against, um, against my phone. Uh, there was, there was-

• 1:50:31Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  There, there was actually one time where I played, uh, corporate simul. And there was this guy who said, um, I built a chess program in, in my university class. Can I let that play against you instead of myself? And I was like, yeah, sure, why not? And I actually like beat it fairly handily, uh, because I played some kind of like anti-computer chess where I just close up the position as much as possible and just let it has, have as few possibilities as possible to, to out, out calculate me. So that is a purely strategical game. That doesn't work against very good engines, but it can work against, um, against weaker ones.

• 1:51:15Speaker 01

  But no, um, humans, like, we don't have any. There was, there was a grandmaster who played a match recently against Lila, which is like the best neural network engine now. Uh, they were playing classical chess and he started with a knight more.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  And they played a ten game match and he won five and a half to four and a half. Wow. Which is crazy, like it's a nightmare, like that's, it should not be possible for any, like if God was playing chess, that shouldn't be, you shouldn't be able to beat a grandmaster in any game like that. So the grandmaster was still able to win. But yeah, for me, uh, I rarely play against engines at all because they just make me feel so stupid and useless. I think about it more as an, as a tool, um, more than, more than, than anything

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  else. And often, like, when you play against them, the moves that they make, they are not necessarily relevant as to what a human would do in that, in that situation. Because we just think, we just think differently. Do you ever try to think like the computer? Um, yeah, well, specifically the neural nets have improved our understanding of the game immensely. And the AlphaZero paper came out very late 2018. And actually, I played a world championship match late 2018 as well against an American Fabiano Caruana. That was the best match I think that I've ever played. We played, um, 12 draws actually,

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  and then I won in a tie break. But like, the games were super high quality and, and he was, he was very evenly matched. And then he was actually using Leila, the AlphaZero clone, which we didn't have access to. Like, we didn't even know that was the thing. But the thing is, like, after AlphaZero came out in 20, late 2018, there was a period, half a year maybe, early 2019, where you could very clearly see which players have been using these newer neural network, networks, or knew how to use them, and which players didn't. And my coach, he got into it very quickly, and we got an advantage of basically everybody.

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  But that but that guy who had been using it during the match. And it just made us understand the game a lot better. There were, as I said, like a couple of things about long term king safety. Pushing pawns on the side of the board was maybe the biggest takeaway that often you would push pawns and not as an attacking tool, which used to be the way that you would push a pawn, like trying to break open your king. What you would do is that you would have a little hook on the side of the board that you could use twenty or thirty moves later

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  to make your king, like to make the opponent's king less safe then. And this is something that humans didn't really do. And I still see some people like allowing these pawn advances. And I don't like, I wonder if they didn't didn't learn their lesson from from twenty nineteen. But it was very clear to see at a certain time before everybody sort of caught up with the new information. And that's also when I had maybe my best stretch of chess ever, because I just understood these new things better, better than others.

• 1:55:08Joe Rogan?

  It's almost counterintuitive that you wouldn't want to play the computer because the computer makes you look stupid. Because the idea in my mind would be like, well, you should play the best thing that you could possibly play. And if that's a computer, great. If that's another human being, then play the human being. But I would imagine that playing something that makes you feel stupid would at the very least teach you something about the game.

• 1:55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it it does. But at the same time, like, you know that these are usually things that humans cannot replicate. And to be fair, like, the kids these days, a lot of them play like a more concrete brand of of chess that.

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  Um, is more similar to, to, um, to engines than, um, than we have seen in the past.

• 1:56:01Joe Rogan?

  Because they've had so much exposure to it.

• 1:56:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, like they're, they're less dogmatic, more concrete in their, their thinking. But then I know that there are usually other things that are, are lacking. So I could, I could sort of steer the game there as well. So, I don't know, um, I haven't, I, I ha- I haven't found it particularly useful, but, but maybe I'm just, yeah, I don't wanna.

• 1:56:29Joe Rogan?

  Is it partly because you just don't wanna lose?

• 1:56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  And it's also because, as you said, like chess is a very lonely game. Like when you lose, it's because you're worse than your opponent. And imagine losing to somebody who you know is like completely stupid, which, which like traditional chess computers aren't. They're stupid, they're just have much more computing power than you do. So losing over and over again to something that's so stupid, like that's not a good feeling.

• 1:57:01Joe Rogan?

  Could you help explain to me what are the factors? Like how can, what is it doing that you can't do in terms of calculating positions and moves and strategies?

• 1:57:13Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, it's infinitely faster. Um, so there will, there will be certain possibilities that I will rule out because of my intuition. But it is able to calculate in a very short time that it's, it's, it's possible. It will never make blunders, like simple tactical mistakes. The neural networks sometimes do, but traditional engines, traditional engines don't. Um, and.

• 1:57:44Joe Rogan?

  Like I can.

• 1:57:46Speaker 01

  I can keep, like, most of the moves that I make will be the same as they, as they do. But they just like, they don't make any real blunders at all. Like, they may, may make slight positional mistakes, but honestly, most of the time that I think a, an engine makes a positional mistake is because I don't understand it well enough.

• 1:58:09Joe Rogan?

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• 1:59:34Joe Rogan?

  that's when it gets dangerous. You can start to hyper-fixate and stress out, and all over things that haven't even happened. That's no good for current you or future you. If you're struggling to stay in the present and out of your head, try talking with a quality therapist from BetterHelp. They have psychologists, family therapists, marriage counselors, social workers, and more. Whatever you need to work through, BetterHelp can match you with a seasoned professional with the specialty that you need.

• 2:00:11Joe Rogan?

  BetterHelp is now a network with more than 125 health plans with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com. That's better H E L P dot com. Hmm. So it's not really a mistake.

• 2:00:36Speaker 01

  And it might look like one, but it's long-term? Uh, yeah, it's just that my understanding is not good enough. And that is useful. Then that does help me learn.

• 2:00:46Joe Rogan?

  What are the, like, what is the difference between the approach that the neural network takes versus a traditional engine? Like, why is one of them approaching the game differently?

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  Because one of them is constantly calculating based on sort of what, what humans have taught them is like the value of, like, the value, what is the value of pawn, what's the value of a knight, and what is the value of, you know, a far advanced pawn and all of this? Like, it calculates based on that. A neural network, just, you teach, you just show it the rules of chess and, you know, play against yourself a lot of times and get better. And it just has, it has a different approach.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  Like, what it does is just based on the game, games that it's, that is played against itself, right? So it's just, it will have completely different, different ideas at times. Like, imagine like in 2019, because of these neural networks, like, every opening that had been played for hundreds of years had to be rechecked by, by coaches. Because there could be a difference in evaluation because there is this new neural network that just thinks in a completely different way.

• 2:02:14Joe Rogan?

  Wow. So the, these neural networks could go back and look at, you know, a classic game from like 1963 and say, "Well, you know what? I would have fucked that dude up because I would have done this, that, and the other thing."

• 2:02:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, and it just, I think a lot of it was based on, it just emphasizes different factors than traditional engines do, and that ultimately just leads to, to different, to different results, really. But it's, yeah, it was extremely fascinating for a while, but now it's just led to really more parity in, in the world of, world of chess, because, yeah, everybody just has access to, to that information.

• 2:03:09Speaker 01

  It used to be a thing back in the time that people, some people would really be ahead of others, not only in 2019, but also other times, like they had more computing power, better, better cloud engines, like they had started to use different engines and so on. But now, now you could prepare for a world championship, honestly, in, in two weeks, and you'd be completely, with like, just a regular, regular like laptop that's connected to, to a cloud, like, it's, it's very different and so much, so much easier today.

• 2:03:52Joe Rogan?

  That is so fascinating, that it's changed the game so much. Could you get a, a computer, whether it is a traditional engine, or whether it's a neural network, could you get one to imitate a specific style? Like, could you get one and say, "I want you to play like Garry Kasparov when he was younger"?

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  So we actually did this back in, back in the day, we actually started a, an app called Play Magnus, where you could play against myself, against, at different ages. And the, the, the style, it was based on, the guy who built Stockfish built this engine as well, so it was based like an old version of that, but it would have my openings and try to emulate my My style at certain certain ages. Obviously, it wasn't it wasn't perfect, but it was it was it was a start.

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's still difficult to build like a very good clone because essentially.

• 2:04:56Speaker 01

  At at least with traditional engines, it's not possible. Maybe with AI. You can you can get there, but I I still think we fundamentally think differently about. About chess, but yeah.

• 2:05:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, the interesting thing would be to take you because there's so many games that can be observed and put into the calculations. And then I would I would really be fascinated to watch you play you. You know, I mean, like, what would that be like? Like, you play you when you were twenty?

• 2:05:26Speaker 01

  No, so the thing about it is is that you would also you would you would have to calibrate is that. It would make occasional like tactical blunders, right?

• 2:05:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  And which.

• 2:05:38Joe Rogan?

  Having you factor those in, right? They wouldn't want to.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  And so what we would do, what would happen in the Play Magnus app is that it would make. Occasional blunders, but those would be like. A little bit too outrageous. Because it's like really hard to emulate the kinds of mistakes a human would make by. By by the engines.

• 2:06:02Speaker 01

  So so I I think that would probably still be like the most difficult part, like the main. Issue in order to to make such a thing.

• 2:06:11Speaker 02

  If the Play Magnus thing was dialed in like a hundred percent. What would be, do you think now would be the scariest age to play you? Does that question make sense?

• 2:06:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Are you better now than ever before?

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  No, I I think I I think my I think my my peak level is is close to the best because. Chess level or proficiency at anything, it's about making use of the knowledge and making it into skill, right? And I definitely have more knowledge now than I've ever had. But I think probably my, the combination, best combination I had of knowledge and, and energy and that translated the best into skill was probably in 2019, like first half of the year when I was, when I was 28.

• 2:07:04Speaker 01

  And when I was more, more like a young Kasparov than I'd ever been before, very dynamic.

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  Well, what is the difference between you in 2019 and you today? A few things. First, it's, I couldn't play the same openings as I played then because they have been worked out to a point where they're basically, yeah, they're just too analyzed and unplayable. So that's, that's one thing.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  Apart from that, I think I could do, like, my average level would probably be a little bit lower because I'm a little bit, I'm a little bit older and, and my brain is not quite as fast. But I, I could do, I think, most of those things. What I don't think I could do is like the other sort of best version of me, which was 2013, 2014, when I was in the best shape of, of my life. And I was just a relentless beast at the board, grinding down my, my opponents in very long endgames, never giving them any, any respite whatsoever.

• 2:08:27Speaker 01

  Like purely skill-wise, that was far from the best version, sorry, knowledge-wise, that was far from the best version of me. But I was just, yeah, it was just like, the average level of my game definitely was, was higher than, because I barely, I rarely played really bad, bad games at all, because I was always, I was always sort of on, I had so much, so much willpower and energy.

• 2:09:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're saying you were in the best shape of your life. Do you mean physically? Or do you mean chess?

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, physically.

• 2:09:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, there's two factors you're talking about, like physical, like fitness, and nutrition and exercise. Like, that, that, these things, you don't really take too much into consideration, but they obviously played a huge factor in the most successful period of your life.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, um, it did, but then...

• 2:09:26Joe Rogan?

  Because you're only thirty-four. It's only your old man.

• 2:09:28Speaker 01

  No, no, no, that's, that, that's true, but I, I, I just, I just feel it with these, these kids, like their brains are just so much faster than mine. Um, I, I mean, I've felt it for years as well, that, no, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not old, uh, but I can, I can, I can never be at that level of pure, like, computing power, but...

• 2:09:54Joe Rogan?

  Is that generally accepted with chess, that there's a certain age where it just drops off? Like, who has won the world championships at, like, the oldest age?

• 2:10:01Speaker 01

  No, well, uh, back in the days, when you couldn't get information that quickly, it took people a lot longer to, um, to develop, and then it was considered that the best age was like late thirties, early, early forties.

• 2:10:16Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:10:17Speaker 01

  Um, obviously, the drop-off is not nearly as steep as it would be in, in physical sports, like, that's, that goes without saying, but I think the peak years are pretty much the same, um, for, for most people, like, mid, mid twenties to, to, to early, uh, to early thirties. Um, I think I could still, I, I, I could be, I could still be very, very close to, to my peak if I, um, focused fully on, um, on, yeah, all the, the things that, that I can...

• 2:10:58Joe Rogan?

  Physical fitness, nutrition, vitamins.

• 2:11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, all of those things, yeah.

• 2:11:02Joe Rogan?

  And you, yeah, you don't do that? I don't understand. If you're so obsessed with chess, then that seems to have a primary factor.

• 2:11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, it's, it's a good thing. Like, I feel like I do, I generally like do the right thing, things when I'm at tournaments, but then in between, I don't know, I want to enjoy life as, as, as well. Um, so...

• 2:11:26Speaker 01

  And like, I'm generally obsessed with with with chess, but I'm not always obsessed with competing. Like, certain times, there will be certain days, certain tournaments where I I know that I'm not going to be at my best, and I can I can sort of, I can feel it, and then I I'm not able to to to to take it as as seriously. Like, I feel like I cannot, I'm I'm not a Michael Jordan type who has to like go all out in every in in every game. I I used to, but now I don't I I don't think I have that

• 2:12:06Speaker 01

  that in me, because my main motivation for playing chess is that I love to play. I don't have concrete goals of what I want to what I want to do, things I want to achieve.

• 2:12:18Joe Rogan?

  Does that sort of relaxed attitude that you have, does that drive other people crazy? That you're still able to beat them? Because that would drive me fucking nuts. If I was just fully obsessed and studying moves all day and just taking my vitamins, drinking only purified water and...

• 2:12:34Speaker 02

  It's kind of a thing that you're known for, right? Like, a lot of other people are known to work all the time, and you've kind of always, at least a reputation, played the player, right? Isn't that what you're...

• 2:12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also the thing is, like, I was known for um for like being fit and all of these things, but now I think there are a lot of other players who take these things a lot more seriously than I than I do. I think the reason why I got that reputation is that I really like doing a lot of a lot of um, like, I did a lot of sports when I was little, and I've always like kind of done them for for fun. So I think that was the that was why, like, you don't see a lot of chess players playing uh playing soccer or tennis or or whatever. Um, not that I'm great in any of those things, but I was usually better than than a lot of other

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  a lot of other chess players. Um, I I, yeah, I guess I do have...

• 2:13:39Speaker 01

  I don't know, I don't know what a reputation I have for the others, like I don't really care.

• 2:13:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's not much you could do about your reputation.

• 2:13:47Speaker 02

  I'm just saying, like in a, in a, in a game or a sport where it's so computer involved and analyzed and there's geniuses wearing suits and glasses and things, you're kind of known as a laid-back, intimidating force with a legacy. Do you have, are there, are there special things you do, kind of like more like a poker player or anything to intimidate your opponents ever? Like I've seen you like show up late to big tournaments where they're like waiting for you and stuff, that's really cool.

• 2:14:15Joe Rogan?

  That's a Miyamoto Musashi move.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:14:19Speaker 02

  Samurai?

• 2:14:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:21Speaker 01

  Honestly, like, that's, um,

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  me being late is down to a couple of things. First, I hate waiting, uh, but also I just, I'm terrible at planning. So that's why I keep showing up late.

• 2:14:34Joe Rogan?

  You are terrible at planning. You know how funny that is?

• 2:14:38Speaker 02

  That's literally what you do, better than anybody.

• 2:14:43Speaker 01

  Like, my planning is always based on everything going perfectly and like making a time plan based on that. And if something goes a little bit wrong, then I'm going to be late and like something usually goes, goes wrong or often enough that it becomes, becomes a thing. Um, like, um, like as you talked about in, in chess, like there's this video that a lot of people have talked about where I come, there's, there's, um, there's a blitz game, right? And I, that's three minutes and I come like two and a half minutes late because I've been, I've been skiing in the mountains and there was a, there was an accident on the road that,

• 2:15:24Speaker 01

  that delayed me like half an hour. Like, most people would have planned for that, had a little bit of buffer, but I was like, eh, that was probably gonna be fine. Certainly, there's an accident and I'm going to be late and I'm just running into the playing hall in my, in my sweatpants and not even realizing that the game has started. I just thought I was so late that I should be. Uh, and I saw that everybody was there and then randomly it turned out that I had half a minute left when, when I got to the, got to the board. So that's kind of more.

• 2:15:57Joe Rogan?

  How'd you play the game? Did you, did you like have a different approach? Cause you knew you only had 30 seconds?

• 2:16:01Speaker 01

  No, the thing is like, there you have a two-second increment per move. So I'm not going to lose some time automatically. I just had to play a little bit faster. But it was, it was okay. But as I said, like, I don't do those things to intimidate my opponents. I'm just.

• 2:16:16Joe Rogan?

  That would be such a mind fuck. Guy shows up two and a half minutes late and still stomps you.

• 2:16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think many people know about the skiing delay or anything. I think it was thought of as like a, I'm a badass, I'm coming in late.

• 2:16:30Speaker 01

  No, honestly, that was, like, the world championships in chess, like, they're being held in the weirdest places. So this was in Almaty, Kazakhstan, which is this, like, really, during winter at least, pretty polluted, not very nice city. And then just half an hour out of the city, you have basically the Alps. You have beautiful mountains that goes up to, to three and a half thousand meters, where it's just fantastic. And you can, you can, like, get, yeah, from the city, it's like, an hour, and you're at the top of the mountain and having a beautiful ski vacation.

• 2:17:15Speaker 01

  And I just, like, was so miserable being down in the city that I thought, for this day, like, if I'm going to perform at all today, like, I need some fresh air. I like, I need to get out of here. And so that's why I took the risk. And it was, yeah, definitely not, not to play, to play mind games. Because I, Bobby Fischer said about chess that I don't believe in psychology, I believe in good moves. Like, I believe in, like, a little bit of both, but I'm more in his school that I just, I think I'm going to make better moves and I don't need, that all, all those other things.

• 2:17:54Speaker 02

  Did you ever have an opponent that was doing something psychological that kind of messed you up or threw you off? Like, back when I was a wrestler in high school, some guys wouldn't shower and it would be disgusting. Right? Was there anything like that in chess?

• 2:18:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that specific thing has, has happened for sure. I'm not sure if it's been, if it's been a conscious choice by my opponents. I'm sure I've been guilty of it as well. That's, that's true. I don't know, really, I.

• 2:18:24Speaker 01

  I think the only thing is not to bring that up again, but I think when I think that my opponent might be cheating, that's the only time that I'm really off.

• 2:18:38Joe Rogan?

  It's just weird that you can cheat and do it for so long and yet still play in the best tournaments. You would think that like in the UFC, like say if you get caught with steroids, you get a long ban and if you get caught again, you get an even longer ban. And I think it's like a three-strike thing. If you get caught a third time, you're out of the sport forever.

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  No, it's the thing is that...

• 2:19:02Joe Rogan?

  We think harsher penalties would discourage people?

• 2:19:04Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, for sure, especially for online because there's been this thinking that cheating over the board and over online is like very different. But the thing is like, once people are cheating online, then having these meteoric rises over the board as well, it makes you think, hmm, that's a bit strange.

• 2:19:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:26Speaker 01

  So yeah, there definitely needs to be harsher penalties. One thing that chess.com used to do is that they would let people sort of confess privately and then get their account back. But now they're moving to more naming and shaming sort of thing with them.

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  And banning people for longer, which I think is, yeah, it's a lot better. But a lot of it is about incentives as well, right? Like if you think that you can get away with cheating

• 2:20:07Speaker 01

  and there are monetary incentives to cheat, people are going to cheat. It's as simple as that.

• 2:20:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, I guess that's just with every pursuit, there's always going to be people that look for shortcuts. There's always going to be someone that looks to skirt around the difficult path.

• 2:20:23Speaker 01

  No, that's true, but the thing is like, there's so little you need in chess and the engines are so powerful.

• 2:20:31Speaker 01

  Like if I started cheating, you would never know. The thing is like, I would get like a move here and there. That's all I need. Or maybe... Imagine I'm playing a tournament, I just find a system where I get somebody to signal me when there's a critical moment. Like if a certain move, if there's a moment where a certain move is much better than the others. That's really all I would need to, to go from being the best to being like practically unbeatable, right? So it, it really is a scary situations, situation.

• 2:21:12Speaker 01

  There have been these cases of, so many cases of people who are acting suspiciously and who are making suspicious, um, having suspicious results based on the data. But they're very, like, if you're not cheating in a dumb way, there rarely is going to be a smoking gun. And without that smoking gun, it's really hard to catch, to catch people.

• 2:21:38Joe Rogan?

  How would you eliminate that other than security? Would you have it so there's no audience members at all and have them only in a room together?

• 2:21:47Speaker 01

  No, so that has been, that has been done in world championships, for instance. Like we're basically play, we're basically been playing like in a glass box that where you can see, where you can see, um, where you, like you cannot see the audience and you cannot hear anything. So it's a glass proof, glass proof box.

• 2:22:08Speaker 01

  I kind of, that's like, you kind of don't want that. You want there to be, like, I really like having chess more like an esports setting where people can be as loud as they want. It's just you have players sit down like boxers with headsets and.

• 2:22:24Joe Rogan?

  But don't headsets open up the possibility of cheating?

• 2:22:27Speaker 01

  But then, like, the headsets would be all provided by the organizers.

• 2:22:32Joe Rogan?

  Right, so some sort of.

• 2:22:33Speaker 01

  And you'd, you'd have to have like both, we have had that in tournament, like tournaments that you have to have white noise and some kind of sound from like Spotify or whatever, if you want to listen to classical music or, or whatever.

• 2:22:47Joe Rogan?

  You can do that?

• 2:22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:22:49Joe Rogan?

  So you can listen to Wu-Tang Clan while you play chess?

• 2:22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, honestly, honestly, playing blitz chess help, listening to music usually helps me. Because like doing tasks that are more intuition based, um, then that helps with the flow. With larger games.

• 2:23:09Speaker 01

  You probably don't want that disturbance, but I've definitely played some of my best blitzchests, just, um, yeah, listening, listening to music and sitting there bopping.

• 2:23:23Joe Rogan?

  Bopping?

• 2:23:24Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I think I.

• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  Some wild Norwegian music?

• 2:23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:28Speaker 02

  Like Ramstein or something?

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  That's actually German, but they have some good, they have some good songs.

• 2:23:37Speaker 01

  No, I think my best, my best, my best chess has probably been Norwegian rap.

• 2:23:41Joe Rogan?

  Norwegian rap, really? What's a good Norwegian rap band that you could, a rap group that you could recommend?

• 2:23:48Speaker 01

  Uh, there's a guy called, um, Mr. Pimp Lotion and Oral B.

• 2:23:52Joe Rogan?

  Mr. Pimp Lotion?

• 2:23:53Speaker 01

  And Oral B, they're kind of, it's like a little bit ironic, but they're like doing like American like west coast rap in, in Norwegian.

• 2:24:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that sounds badass.

• 2:24:05Speaker 01

  This is a bit of a difference, but I, I actually, I actually did a song with.

• 2:24:10Joe Rogan?

  Mr. Pimp Lotion.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  I actually did a song with those guys.

• 2:24:14Joe Rogan?

  What a great name, Mr. Pimp Lotion.

• 2:24:18Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 2:24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, my verse is like right at the end.

• 2:24:26Joe Rogan?

  I like it too, because I don't have any idea what the words are saying.

• 2:24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:30Speaker 02

  Yours is at the end?

• 2:24:32Speaker 01

  No, basically there's, um, yeah, the, the thing about, the, the, what happened was that they did a show and they have this, this thing called Spanoul, which is like, um, a moisturizer mostly used for, for animals, but like this Mr. Pimp Lotion, like he's obsessed with that one and somebody apparently stole the, that from backstage, um, at, at their concert and so they, they didn't know who it was, but they eventually found out and they made a song about it and so they had a bunch of people like sending their verses.

• 2:25:12Speaker 02

  Incredible, the difference between America and Norway, what the rappers are rapping about, there's gang wars and shootings and in Norway, somebody's like, who stole my lotion?

• 2:25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:26Speaker 01

  There actually was a, uh, there actually was a popular song, um, like about 20 years ago. That referenced specifically that in Norwegian that there was nothing to rap about because nothing bad ever happens.

• 2:25:43Joe Rogan?

  That's what he's saying in English.

• 2:25:44Joe Rogan?

  Don't make people out the gun. It's best that someone speak out. Who stole this bean off?

• 2:25:51Speaker 03

  Who stole my lotion?

• 2:25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:57Speaker 01

  Basically, there's a bunch of verses, like people accusing each other, and then I randomly come in at the very end. Um, and solve the mystery.

• 2:26:06Joe Rogan?

  Ah. Was it you?

• 2:26:08Speaker 01

  Oh, it wasn't me. Um, I, I was, I was not at that particular show, but. Um, yeah, I think, I, I, I think like the best online chess that I've ever played was probably listening, listening to their, um, to their music.

• 2:26:23Joe Rogan?

  Do you mix it up? Do you ever listen to like Led Zeppelin or?

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  No, I, I, I listen to a lot of, lot of older, older stuff, um, as well. Um, so yeah, I'm like, I have no idea what's on the chart these days, um, in general, but.

• 2:26:44Joe Rogan?

  I find out through Tony. I find, I do, I find out through the young guys at the club. I'm like, what are you listening to? What is this? And I'll, you know, do Shazam on it and put it on my Spotify playlist.

• 2:26:54Speaker 01

  That sometimes happens to me as well, maybe like once a year or something.

• 2:26:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:58Speaker 01

  Otherwise it's, um, I remember like I asked my sister, uh, probably like 10 years ago. Like I saw a playlist and I was like, do you have anything from before 2000? And she was like, yeah, of course. Britney Spears, baby, one more time, 999.

• 2:27:17Speaker 01

  So I'm kind of the opposite of that.

• 2:27:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's awesome. Well, listen, man, it's been awesome having you in here. I really appreciate you doing this. And tell everybody when the Netflix show is out.

• 2:27:28Speaker 01

  I don't know, but it's within a few months for sure.

• 2:27:31Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, do you know? I looked, didn't say. Didn't say when it's coming out. Well, we will put it up on the Instagram when it's out. And it's been awesome talking to you, man. I really appreciate it.

• 2:27:43Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Thanks for coming in. All right, Tony? Fun times. Fun times. All right. Goodbye, everybody.