#2494 - Chamath Palihapitiya

Chamath Palihapitiya is a venture capitalist, engineer, founder of Social Capital, and a co-host of the podcast “All-In.”www.youtube.com/@allinhttps://www.youtube.com/@chamathhttps://chamath.substack.comwww.socialcapital.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Get 30% off + 2 free gifts at https://ARMRA.com/rogan This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Train my day, Joe Rogan Podcast my night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I was listening to Tim, first of all, hello.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  What's up?

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  Good to see you, my friend.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  Great to see you.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  Uh, we were listening to Tim Dillon. I was listening to it on the way over here. And he was talking about, uh, Anna Paulina Luna and Tim Burchett and Trump. They're all talking about the UAP disclosures and like, why now? Like, what are they doing? Like, why are they distracting us with this? Tim Burchett said that whatever they're going to release, it will be indigestible.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 0:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  Indigestible as in, or, well, then it doesn't mean that it's real, then?

• 0:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think it means that it'll be so crazy if it's real, so crazy. He's the one that's been saying that there's these confirmed bases under the ocean. That there's these specific locations. I think he talked, you're shaking your head. You don't believe a word of it.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:01Joe Rogan?

  How come?

• 1:02Speaker 02

  I think, I think it's true that there, look, it's completely implausible that there aren't other species.

• 1:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Completely implausible.

• 1:13Joe Rogan?

  Just the vastness.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  Just the vastness of what we're dealing with. So the real question is like, why haven't we encountered people? Or those things, those beings?

• 1:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  And it's probably because they just, they have bigger fish to fry.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  So by the time that we meet them and they meet us, we're, we're gonna kind of be at the edge of like, we've, we've kind of been there, done that on our own planet. And then we've kind of like developed the technology, I guess, to get beyond it. But somewhere along the way, there must have been a few, just mathematically impossible. So then the question is, is it buried? Or were people confused when it first came here? Like, if you had a spaceship land in like the 1800s?

• 1:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  What would people have done? They would have just freaked out, they wouldn't have understood it, maybe they would have buried it. Depending on where it was, maybe they started to pray to it.

• 2:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  And you would have just moved on. And then that isn't documented in history, so.

• 2:05Joe Rogan?

  But it is.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  But how?

• 2:07Joe Rogan?

  It is, there's a lot of it documented in history.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Oh, you mean like hieroglyphics and like monuments?

• 2:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, Book of Ezekiel, Book of Ezekiel goes in depth about some sort of a UFO encounter that Ezekiel experiences.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20Joe Rogan?

  Where it's a wheel within a wheel and a cloud with fire flashing forth continually in the midst of a cloud as it were gleaming metal. And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures and the creatures darted to and fro like the appearance of a flash of lightning. This is all in the Bible. It's also in the Mahabharata. They, they talk about vaymanas, these flying crafts. And I think it's entirely possible that we have been visited periodically. And that we are, we have been monitored and that we are monitored.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 2:55Joe Rogan?

  Currently.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 2:56Joe Rogan?

  And if I was gonna hide, I would hide in the ocean.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Well, to be honest, as I get older, I'm convinced we're basically in some form of a simulation. There's like all these little ingredients that if you start to see these little clues, you're like, they all seem so odd in isolation and then when you put them together, I feel like a crazy person, so I ignore myself.

• 3:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  But I wonder like, why did this happen? Like yesterday, I was at a dinner in LA before I came to see you. And I told this very interesting story, well, or I thought it was interesting at the time.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  You know that like, so in 2000, right? If you think of like what happened in tech since 2000, so the last 26 years. People can give you all kinds of like fancy theories.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  But there's just like this weird word that's been at the center of every single technological revolution for the last 30 years and that word is attention. Let me explain this to you.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Google, they invent Google. What is Google? Google is a algorithm. It's called PageRank. But if you look inside of it, what is it? It says, well, Chamath's website has five links to it. Joe's website has two links, he's getting more attention. Okay? Chamath's website is more important. That's the sum total of Google. Now, they've made that a lot more refined and they've done all these other fancy things.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  But it's all about attention.

• 4:26Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Fast forward to 2007, 8, 9, when, you know, Zuck, and then when I went to work for Zuck, and we got on the scene, we're like, what does everybody care about? Attention. And so what is like the Facebook algorithm? What's the Instagram algorithm? You know, how do we construct news feed? All around attention. Joe had 35 likes, Jamie had 12 likes, your thing is more important, let's give it more more importance because it's seemingly meeting all these human needs. Attention, attention, attention. So phase one, attention. Phase two, attention. And this is where I'm like, how can this be possible? In phase three, we're like looking at AI. And when you look backwards four years, the seminal paper is called Attention Is All You Need.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  It's about this word again. And when you look inside of the core part, if you peel out, peel, you know, apart AI, the little brain that makes it so capable is called an attention mechanism. It's just attention. It's all about, again, this idea of I'm going to scour all this information and I'm going to figure out what patterns repeat itself and I'm just going to double down on the stuff that I see more of. Because that attention must mean it's more important, it's more true, it's more knowledgeable. And then I think, how could it be like we're all like, why is it that these things are just repeating over and over again? And I just get confused. I don't, I don't exactly know how to explain it. So are there other ways in which we should be doing things? Absolutely. Have we even explored it? No.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  So then I think, well, is this just a simulation? Some kid in fucking, in his house, just playing some simulation and we're all just party to it and that's all he understands is attention? I don't know.

• 6:05Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it's that simple, that there's a person playing a game. But if you break down just attention, well, that's all of human history, is paying attention to the king, paying attention to the war, paying attention to resources, paying attention to who says the thing that resonates the most with the people. It's all about what human beings are paying attention to.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  I think it's part of it. Then there's also what is actually true. And I think sometimes what is true and what people pay attention to are not the same thing.

• 6:40Joe Rogan?

  True.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  And sometimes the thing that you should be paying attention to gets lost because the thing that you are paying attention to gets more attention because it's more interesting and useful. That's sort of where we are right now. We're in this really weird phase, I think, where you actually like should be focused on this thing over here, and instead we're all focused on all these things over here.

• 7:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, give me an example.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Here's like a very big one. I think like it's pretty fair to say, since the last time you and I saw each other on this show, the attitude towards technology, I think, has been pretty profoundly negative. It's kind of tilted. It's relatively like anti-AI, you know, anti-billionaires. It's anti-all of this stuff.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  And it manifests in all of these interesting ways. There's protests, there's data centers, there's all of this stuff that's happening. People are worried about job loss. All of that stuff is real.

• 7:45Joe Rogan?

  Do you want a cigar?

• 7:46Speaker 02

  No, I'm okay, I'm okay.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  But what should they really be focused upon? And I think what they should be really focused upon is we're at the tail end of a cycle that doesn't work anymore, which is all about like this tension between labor, people that do the work, and capital, the people that fund it and then make all the returns. And over the last 40 years, we've basically gone to this completely upside-down world where capital extracts all of the upside.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  And labor has extracted less and less and less and less. And all of this pushback, it manifests in AI, it manifests in politics, it manifests in social issues, it manifests in, you know, Israel, whatever you want to talk about. All of these issues, I think symptomologically, come from this other issue, which is we are out of balance. This total compact that we used to have, a liberal democracy and a free market, has totally collapsed. And there are simple ways to fix that, but that never gets the attention because it's not what you want to talk about. The attention is here. You know, vote no to the data center, you know, this model is going to take out all the jobs.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  You know, this social issue is really important. That war should not be fought. That war should be fought. All of these things, while important,

• 9:06Speaker 02

  distract us from what the core issue is. And the core issue is that we, as a society, I think, are out of balance. The natural compact between all of us is broken. And there are some simple ways to fix that compact. Get people more invested. Get people more engaged in the upside. Have people have a positive, some view of what's happening. And that isn't happening.

• 9:27Joe Rogan?

  What, what simple solutions are there to, to this one very particular issue?

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Okay, I'll get your reaction to this.

• 9:35Joe Rogan?

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• 11:00Joe Rogan?

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• 12:21Speaker 02

  Let's assume that you still lived in California, because I think it tells this example in a more extreme way. Let's say you make a million bucks a year, which is a lot of money, but it makes the point more cleanly.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  You'd pay, I think, 30% federal tax. And you'd pay another 15% or 16% in state tax and Medicare tax and all this tax. So if you're a wage earner, 50% of all your upside goes to the government.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  If you're a capital earner and you make that same million dollars via capital gains, you pay half that tax.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Why did that happen? That happened because in the 40s and 50s, but really in the 60s and 70s and 80s, what we were trying to do, or what the American government and what Western societies were trying to do, was to convince people to invest their money. Hey, Joe, go build that factory, go hire those people, and we're going to incentivize you to do so. And by doing that, there was this idea that all of those profits that you would get would then diffuse, trickle down into everybody else. The workers participated, everybody participated. But technology allows you to do more with less and less.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  So now what happens is the capital owners can accrue infinite, almost, it seems like, value, and the workers get less and less. But now if you get less and less and you're taxed more and more as a percentage of what you own, you're going to feel really out of sorts. You're going to be like, why am I paying 50 cents of every dollar? And I see these other ways where folks are paying 25 cents on their dollars, but their dollars are compounding way faster and they have hundreds of billions more of those dollars than I have of my dollars. If you take that example and you expand it across society, I think people understand that now. There's enough information and there's enough people talking about it where it's pretty clear that that's happened. So the question is, how do you fix it? I think if you think about AI, and if you believe that we're going to get into this

• 14:32Speaker 02

  world of abundance, and we're not working, what does it mean for governments to tax our labor? There is no labor. You're not working anymore, I'm not working, we're doing things out of leisure. Why should I pay 50 cents of every dollar? Why aren't the companies that are going to be making trillions of dollars, why don't they pay more? Why isn't there an expectation that they then help our lived society do better and thrive as a result of all of that winning? That's the real conversation that I think is... Bubbling, and I think that we're probably another 12 to 18 months where all of these

• 15:14Speaker 02

  other issues are going to be important, but they're going to be viewed for what they are. They're going to get demoted, I think, in importance, and it's this core structural issue. It's what is the economic relationship that we have together as a society? What is the relationship between Joe, Chamath, Jamie, and all these companies? And how do we feel about a few, and an ever shrinking few, making more and more and more? And then how do we feel about their ability to share that with a small amount of people? And then what is the expectation for everybody else? I think that's mostly at the core of what's

• 15:57Speaker 02

  happening. And so back to like, you know, all of this attention that we give to these other issues distracts from that one, because I think you can get organized to fix this issue. You can't get concessions on any of these issues. You know, you bring up Israel, it's like this. You bring up social issues, it's like this. You bring up, you know, whatever you want to bring up, people just kind of take a side, nothing happens. This is actually where people are universally actually much more aligned than you'd think, because there's reasonable ways. One simple way is you'd say, well, let's flip the taxation model. Corporate taxes should exceed personal taxes. They've never. We should have an expectation

• 16:40Speaker 02

  that then corporate actors can buy down their taxes if they want, but if they do social good for society. I'll give you an example. The Industrial Revolution, there's a table like this, and the leading lights of that era, Andrew Carnegie, Nelson Rockefeller, Jay Gould, JP Morgan.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  They sat together and they said, guys, this is going to benefit us, this industrial revolution. It may not benefit everybody. What is our responsibility? What is our collective responsibility? And they allocated tasks. Carnegie went and built libraries all throughout the country. Rockefeller built universities. Hospitals were built. And I think what happened is society was like, wow, these are living testaments to us doing well. And so then they were OK with this transition. But if you think about it today, what are the living tributes that, you know, capital builds and leaves behind for society? It's fewer and fewer.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  I think that's a very big opportunity for somebody to fill. I think it's like, especially for folks in tech, I think, if they can get themselves organized to do that, I think we land in a good place. If they cannot get themselves organized to do that and say, everyone for themselves, I think it's going to be really complicated, super messy.

• 18:05Joe Rogan?

  Super messy because

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Super messy.

• 18:08Joe Rogan?

  That sentiment that the wealthy are getting wealthier and the middle class is disappearing and the poor are being taxed into oblivion.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Well, look, an $80,000 a year teacher pays 40% tax. But if you're a multi-billionaire, most of your wealth is not W-2 wages. It's cap gains. But there's all kinds of ways to shelter cap gains. There's all kinds of ways to defer. And so even though you pay more on an absolute dollar basis, on a percentage basis, you're paying way, way less. And all of those tricks have been exposed. They've all been exposed. These are all mechanisms that were, you know, invented from the 1980s to now, right, by all the, by all the banks and all the folks that wanted to come to folks that had wealth. And so it's, and it's all known.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  And I think people are kind of like, hey, hold on a second. This just doesn't feel fair anymore.

• 19:05Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely, but the other problem with that is if you do tax correctly, where does that money go and who's managing it? And ultimately, who's managing it is the federal government and they've been shown to be completely inept at managing your money correctly. The fraud and the waste is off the charts. The amount of NGOs that have insane amount of funds at their disposal, I mean, all this is exposed by Doge, right? And you realize like how much fraud and waste there is and how much money. So the solution being tax people more, that doesn't sit with a lot of people because it's

• 19:47Joe Rogan?

  like, well, where, where is it going and who's managing it? If, if the federal government was being forced to handle money the same way a private company does, if it was all out in the open, everything was exposed, they would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. They would have gone under a long time ago. There's no way they would have been allowed to function the way they are. The people that are managing that money would have all been put in jail. There's not a chance in hell that giving them more money is going to solve anything. They're going to find more ways to put more of that money into NGOs that puts more of that money into Democratic coffers and Republican coffers. They're going to figure out a way to funnel that money around where it's not going to

• 20:32Joe Rogan?

  benefit people. I mean, a good example that is like where, let's, let's look at the LA fire thing, for instance. Alright, so the LA Fire Fund, there's a giant fire in the Palisades, all this money gets raised, it's over $800 million. It goes to 200 plus different nonprofits. None of it goes to the people. Spencer Pratt, who's running for mayor of Los Angeles. Who's doing a great job, by the way. Fucking phenomenal. Those ads are unbelievable. Those ads are fire. They're fire. They're so good. They're fire. And he's doing, and he's doing it all out of a trailer on his burnt out land. I mean, he's the most righteous guy running in that regard.

• 21:14Joe Rogan?

  But just that being exposed, like, okay, we're gonna help out these people. We're gonna donate money. We're gonna raise money. We're gonna do some good. We feel terrible about the people in our community that have lost homes. Well, what happens? Well, the same people that you're saying we should give more taxes to, take that money and they just give it to a bunch of nonprofits and charities. This episode is brought to you by Armra. Every week, there's some new wellness hack that people swear by. And after a while, you start thinking, why do we think we can just outsmart our bodies? That's why Armra colostrum caught my attention. It's something the body already recognizes and it has hundreds of these specialized nutrients

• 21:57Joe Rogan?

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• 22:15Speaker 02

  I'm not saying give them more tax. What I'm saying is, people are taxed too much. Corporates are not taxed enough. Flip it.

• 22:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, but even if you do flip it and the corporates are taxed more, where's that money going? This is the problem.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  I suspect that if you put the burden on Wall Street and corporates, they'd be a lot more organized and they'd probably create a lot more change than a diffuse electorate. Meaning, like, let's just say the government spends a trillion dollars and wastes it. I'm generally like roughly aligned with that. If you waste a trillion dollars from 300 million people, it's hard to organize that 300 million people. But if you waste a trillion dollars from 300 companies, those companies will get their shit together really fast and they will force a lot more change.

• 23:05Joe Rogan?

  I would hope so, but you're still dealing with incompetent people that are tasked with taking care of that money. Not just incompetent.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending these people.

• 23:13Joe Rogan?

  Decades of corruption, decades and decades of all these mechanisms where they can take this money and funnel it into these NGOs. NGOs and these nonprofits and all these different weird organizations that don't seem to have accountability for what they do with that money. That gets real slippery.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:35Joe Rogan?

  And if those people in turn make deals with those corporations that allow them to do certain things and push things through that maybe they would have difficulty doing, then you have a different kind of a working relationship with the same groups of people and the same government. You just take money from corporations and move it into a way where the corporations ultimately benefit from it, but yet it doesn't do any good to the people.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I can see where you're coming from. I just think that if we go on the track we're going down, it just seems like we're going to hit a crisis.

• 24:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  The crisis is you can't expect people to pay more and more and more. Again, I agree with you. The premise is we're all paying for a system that's broken.

• 24:18Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  That should, that should change, but we still continue to have to pay our taxes. But if taxes keep going up like this at the individual level, and we don't manage this transition to something where we may be working less and less, what are we getting paid to do? And then at that point, how are we expected to pay what? Ninety percent of what?

• 24:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Fifty percent of what?

• 24:39Joe Rogan?

  I think people do have this weird feeling of dread that the people that are in control of a lot in this country, the tech companies in particular, particularly the tech companies like Google and Facebook that are essentially involved in data collection and then ultimately dissemination of information, that they have acquired enormous amounts of wealth and power and influence, and they're essentially a new form of the government.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:11Joe Rogan?

  You know, are you aware of Robert Epstein? Do you know about his work?

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Not Robert Epstein.

• 25:16Joe Rogan?

  No, different guy, different guy. Robert Epstein is a guy who specializes in understanding what curated search results do and what Google's able to do with, in particular, with curated search results in terms of influencing elections. That like, say, if you, you have two candidates that are running, let's just, let's just take LA for instance. If, I'm not making any accusations, but I'm saying if they wanted Karen Bass to win and you searched Karen Bass, you would find all these positive results. If you searched Spencer Pratt, you would find all these negative results.

• 25:57Joe Rogan?

  And there's a bunch of people that are always undecided voters, and those are the ones that you really want. They're like, I don't know, I don't know. And come election night, those are the people you want to try to grab, and it's generally a large percentage. You can influence an enormous percentage of those people just with search results. Where you can shift an election one way or another.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  I believe it.

• 26:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and he's demonstrated this and shown how this is possible. That freaks people out, that tech companies are in control of narratives, that tech companies can censor information, especially tech companies that work in conjunction with the government. This is what we found out when Elon purchased Twitter, right? When Elon purchased Twitter, we got all this information from the Twitter files when all the journalists were allowed to go through it, and they said, oh, this is crazy. You've got the FBI, the CIA, you've got all these companies, all these government organizations that are essentially controlling the narrative of free speech in the country. And they're doing it in a way that benefits them.

• 27:01Joe Rogan?

  They're doing it in a way that benefits what political parties in charge at the time was the Biden administration. And they were allowed to do a bunch of weird shit, which, which should be illegal, but it's not technically illegal. And that freaks people out because there's no real laws and rules in regard to what they're allowed to do and what they're not allowed to do. Like curated search results should be illegal.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  They're shaping attention.

• 27:24Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Attention, again, it goes back to attention, right?

• 27:27Speaker 02

  They're shaping attention.

• 27:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:31Joe Rogan?

  It's, that's a big concern for people. And I think then when you find out that these people are able to amass enormous sums of wealth and have incredible amount of power and influence because of this enormous, enormous wealth and this control over these tech companies that have essentially become the town square of the world.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:51Joe Rogan?

  That freaks people out and that these very small number of people, you know, you think of Zuckerberg, you think of Tim Cook and I don't, I don't know who the new guy is now.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  John, John Furn-.

• 28:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Furnas, no.

• 28:04Joe Rogan?

  I forgot his name.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Furnas. Turnus, turnus.

• 28:07Joe Rogan?

  But, but that kind of thing gives people a lot of concern, right? It's like that these people, these unelected people are in control of a giant chunk of how the world works.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  I think that this is the existential question that we are dealing with. You're going to have five or six companies concentrate, like whatever power you think has been concentrated up until now, I think we're going to look back and it's going to look like a Sunday picnic 10 or 15 years from now. Because on the one hand, it's going to be an even smaller subset and on the other hand, the capability is going to be in order two orders of magnitude. So can you imagine what that must be like? It's kind of like showing up, getting dropped into the 1800s and you've invented the engine and everybody else is horse and buggy.

• 28:59Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  You can just decide, to your point. That is where we're going.

• 29:06Joe Rogan?

  It's even more crazy. It's like everybody else is on a horse and buggy and you've got an internet connection and a cellphone.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Right, exactly, exactly.

• 29:13Joe Rogan?

  It's even more crazy.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 29:15Joe Rogan?

  Cause it's, what we're dealing with, with AI right now is, first of all, it's already lowered children's attention spans and it's shrinking their capacity to acquire or absorb information. Because what they're doing now is just relying on AI to answer all their questions for them. Now, is that their fault? Kind of, right? Because it doesn't have to be that way. You could still acquire information. The old fashioned way, you can still learn things the right way. But a lot of kids are just concerned with passing examinations and getting into good schools. And what they're doing is just using AI. And they're they're getting better test results, but they're also not as smart.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:54Joe Rogan?

  Which is really weird.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:56Joe Rogan?

  It's like we're relying on it like we, you know, it's like it's essentially like

• 30:05Joe Rogan?

  replacing our mind. And that's just the, this is the beginning. This is like, these are the toddler days.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:14Joe Rogan?

  Of AI.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:15Joe Rogan?

  And where it's going to be a super athlete in a few years.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think we have to figure out how, first of all, kids need to learn, and I think this is where like we have to do a better job as parents. Kids need to learn how to be resilient thinkers. I don't even know what that term meant before, but I know what it means now, which is like, you take this AI slop and you just kind of like pass it off. And if like the teachers in the school system aren't trained, they're just like, wow, this looks good. They have to be able to push back. Parents need to be able to look at this shit. But then all of this stuff, I'm just like so frustrated because it's like, one more thing that I have to do as a parent, like.

• 30:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Every time technology gets better, it's one more thing, you know?

• 30:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  We're going to make the world, you know, super connected and social and all of that stuff. It sounds great to me until I have to be the one that has to tell my kid I can't, they can't get Instagram. And then they're up my ass every day.

• 31:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  You know? And it's just like, I don't want to have to deal with this stuff.

• 31:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  I want this to be handled in a way that just allows me to do what I want to do. I don't want to say no to my kid. I don't want to police his schoolwork and make sure he's not cheating or not learning and just like, you know, passing off this AI slop. What am I?

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Where are all my tax dollars going? Where's everybody else in all of this? It gets very frustrating. And again, it goes back to like this feeling of like, well, is this all getting better for me? Or is this kind of like not, you know, people start to be nostalgic for what it used to be. Cause it was just simpler, but I think that's a different way of saying easier.

• 31:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, we're just dealing with, we're at the edge of great change. Like great change that has no real understanding of how it turns out.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:57Joe Rogan?

  And I think that understandably freaks people out, freaks me out. It freaks me out, but I've kind of gotten to this place where I'm like, well, it's going to happen.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Did you see this thing? It's the CEO of Verizon, Dan Schulman. He put out this very public forecast, you know, very smart guy, well regarded in business. And I think he said something like 30% of all white collar jobs will be gone by 2030. I don't know, Jamie, maybe you can get the exact thing, but it's something like that.

• 32:25Joe Rogan?

  That's probably optimistic.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  And I thought at first, my initial reaction was like, this is totally not credible. But then I'm like, hold on a second. That's my bias because I want to believe that that's not possible. Honestly, you know, and as I've gotten older, I'm a little bit better now. Like, okay, hold on a second, let's weigh the probabilities. And then I was like, man, if I'm going to be fair, maybe there's a 10, 20% chance of that. There's a bunch of other outcomes that are much better than that. But that's part of the set of outcomes that you have to consider.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  And then I was like, well, what's my antidote to that? My, and, and the only thing that I can say is don't worry, it's going to be better. I don't think that that's a good answer.

• 33:06Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  So there has to be, like, all of this kind of goes back to, look, my wife and I had this conversation. We're like, if it were up to us, who's, who can you trust to have some super intelligence? Now we're biased because we're friends with him, but the only person that we can trust is Elon. Cause he seems to be like, he has a bigger, like, it's kind of like, he's like over there. He's like, I need to get to Mars, you know, and I'm going to first terraform the moon, but then I'm going to Mars and I'm going to build like a fucking magnetic catapult. Do all this shit. And so I just need this thing. I feel like he's the least corruptible.

• 33:47Joe Rogan?

  He's the most independent thinking.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  And I think he's the one that has an actual empathy for people. Then there are folks where there's just an insane profit motive.

• 33:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  They're less in control of the businesses that they run. Those businesses are really out over their ski tips and the amount of money they've gotten from Wall Street and other folks who expect a return, who will put a ton of pressure on these folks. And if they get their first, I don't know where the chips fall. We don't really know. We can kind of guess. And then you see in the press, just enough snippets of their reactions in certain moments where you're like, hey, hold on a second, question mark here, you know? You see OpenAI react one way, you see Anthropic react another way, and you're like, where is this going to end up? And the honest answer is, nobody really knows. So it comes back to like, we need a few people that can organize, those guys need to self-organize

• 34:40Speaker 02

  and actually present a really positive face. And they need to show why those 20% of outcomes that Dan Schulman paints.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  The truth is, it's possible, but here's why it's not probable.

• 34:54Joe Rogan?

  But it's not in their best interest to do that, because it's in their best interest to generate the most amount of money possible. That's the obligation they have to their shareholders, that's the obligation to they have the people that have invested money in this company. Their obligation is not to make sure the white collar jobs stay in the same place that they are now. This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight, and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change? Your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone, it's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack.

• 35:34Joe Rogan?

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• 36:17Joe Rogan?

  I know because I use it. That's right. JoeRogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace.com/Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  That's not, that's not true.

• 36:49Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 36:50Speaker 02

  No. I actually think their incentive should very clearly be to tell people with details and facts, why there's a positive future. And the reason is the following. Right now, there is a vacuum. There are no facts. And there's fear mongering and then there's this belief that this is going to be cataclysmic to human productivity and white collar labor and all of this stuff. What's people's natural reaction? Well, today, if you look at it, think about AI as a very simple equation. Energy in, intelligence out. So if you want to cut the head of the snake, what do you do? You cut off the energy supply. Right?

• 37:27Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  If you're afraid of all of this super intelligence coming, the natural thing to do would be to go to the point of energy and unplug it. What is the equivalent of unplugging it today? It is to go all around the country, find the data centers, protest them and get them to be mothballed. That is an incredibly successful strategy right now.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Today, about 40% of all of these data centers that get protested get mothballed.

• 37:59Joe Rogan?

  You're talking about emerging data centers.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, just like, I need to, so if you're one of these companies, the first thing you should realize is I need to paint a positive vision because 40% of my energy is getting unplugged every day. And if that happens, my revenues will crater and my investors will be super pissed. So the right strategy is what is the positive, fact-based argument? And there are some incredible examples. Number one, and then number two is you have to give people some tactical benefit that they see. Because AI differently than search or differently than social media, there's no exchange of value. Let me, let me explain what that means.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  So let me just go like, so the first thing is that if you can go and actually show people, here's an example of AI. I heard about this last night, it's pretty incredible.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  You can now take pictures of a woman's fallopian tubes and you can see pre-cancer, ovarian cysts and all of this stuff, cervical cancer before it forms. And then you can intervene and you can fix it so that, you know, women don't get cervical cancer. In a different example, I actually, I told you about this example when I was here before. I finally got FDA approval, okay? There is a device now that is allowed to be in the operating room with you. And if you have a cancerous lesion or a tumor inside of your body, the most important thing when they go to take it out is make sure you don't leave any cancer behind.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  You couldn't do it because what would happen is you take it out, a doctor, Joe, is literally fucking eyeballing it and saying, yeah. They send it to a pathologist, you get an answer in 10 days. For women with breast cancer, a third of these women find out that they have cancer left behind. They go back in, they scoop some more stuff out, a third of those women. Okay. So I'm like, this is bullshit, we can solve this problem.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  It took us a long time, a lot of money. I had to build an entire machine, imaging, all of this stuff, AI algorithms, we had to prove it all, we finally get approval, okay? But you know how hard it is to tell that story? In all of the attention that people are looking for, it's hard. But those are positive examples, no more breast cancer. No more cervical cancer. A different example is, most drugs in pharma fail, right? And it's a very complicated problem in pharma. It's kind of like a jigsaw puzzle of the ultimate complexity. It's like, think of your human body as like a Himalayan mountain range.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  You have to design a drug that's an equivalent Himalayan mountain range that plugs into it perfectly. One millimeter off, you grow like a fourth eye, a third nipple, you die, you know? Now you can use computers to make sure that that drug, hand in glove to your body, solves the exact problem. Couldn't do that before. So there's all of these body of examples, and you're probably only hearing them superficially at best. That should be 99% of the attention, is showing all of the constructive, tactical ways in which our lives will be better. Your mom, your daughter, your wife, us, Jamie, his family, everybody.

• 41:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  That's the number one thing. Nobody talks about it. I don't understand why.

• 41:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think because people are terrified of losing their jobs. So that's the primary concern. The primary concern that I hear from people is that there's so many people that are going to school right now, college students, that don't know if their job is going to even exist in four years when they graduate.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  And that's the second part of, I think, what this industry has to do better. There's a, I had lunch with Jeffrey Katzenberg. He told this crazy story. I'll tell you, it's a, Steve Jobs gets kicked out of Apple. He buys, he starts NeXT, and he buys Pixar from George Lucas. But then he hits a rough patch and he's got this, you know, financing issue. Katzenberg flies up, spends time with Steve Jobs, says, "I'll buy Pixar." Jobs says, "Absolutely not." And then Katzenberg proposes a deal, and he's like, "How about a three-picture deal?" Jobs says, "Okay." He flies back, and apparently, all the animators were up in arms because they're like, "Hold on a second.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Steve Jobs is going to use these NeXT computers to animate this movie, which ultimately became, I think, Toy Story. And they're like, "This is going to put all of us out of a job." That perfect argument. And people were really upset. Roy Disney was upset, all the animators were upset, and they all went to Mike Eisner. And they were like, "Michael, you need to fire Katzenberg." And they had a deal which was like, look, man, you do you, but just give me the ability to say no if I think that this is you're about to jump off a cliff. They talk about it and he's like, I got your back, do the deal, make the movie. They made the movie, it was a huge success. Fast forward 10 years, 15 years, there's 10x the number of animators.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Now, it's a small example, but why is that? You were able to use computers and now all these new people were able to come and participate in that. I get it, it's a small example. But I think if we had better organized leadership and we could try to tell some of these examples, try to go back and document how some of these things have actually helped people, it expanded the pie, there's a chance. But if we don't, I agree with you, where we're going to end up is everybody basically saying, hey, hold on a second, this is crazy, we need to stop this. That's the worst outcome. Because that's when you will have the high, a high risk of a dislocation, like the worst outcome, like the black, what's the black swan event? Right, let's think about the black, the black swan event is when you get a model

• 44:03Speaker 02

  that's good enough to automate a bunch of labor, but not good enough that it can build new drugs and prevent cancer and make you live for 200 years and all of this other stuff, right? So there's like a gap, right? And if you can stop it here and it doesn't get to there, now you do have the worst of all worlds. You have this thing that kind of displaces labor, no new things come after it because we stop innovating. And that's like a, that's like a non-trivial possibility now, I think.

• 44:36Joe Rogan?

  No, it's a huge possibility. And then there's also this thing that you brought up earlier, where we have this place of abundance where no one has to work anymore. That freaks people out.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  I think that's a big problem.

• 44:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, because if no one has to work anymore, first of all, what, what is your identity? Right? Because so many people, their identity is what they do. Whatever it is, if you're a lawyer, if you're an accountant, if you run a business, whatever it is, this is your identity. You know, you have built this thing, you look forward to going there, you work at it, you look forward to doing a good job and getting rewarded for it. The harder you work, the more you get paid. There's all these incentives built in and then there's this, again, identity problem. If all of a sudden you have universal high income, which is what Elon always talks about. Well, what gives people purpose then? Like what? And also, if you have a person who's entire, they're, you know, forty-three years old

• 45:32Joe Rogan?

  and their entire life they've worked towards this idea that the harder they work, the harder they think, the more innovative they are and the, the better they are at implementing these ideas, the more they get rewarded. And then all of a sudden, that's not necessary anymore. Mike, time for you to just relax and do what you wanna do. And Mike's like, well, this is what I do. I, this, I, I don't have any fucking hobbies. I, I enjoy doing what I do. And now what I do is completely useless. And now I'm on a fixed income. Even if that fixed income is a million dollars a year, whatever it is.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:06Joe Rogan?

  If all of a sudden you are in this position where everything is being run by computers, you feel useless. You feel like, what am I doing? I'm just, I'm just taking money? I'm on high welfare?

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:18Joe Rogan?

  Like, what do I do?

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Right. I think that that's a really important question to answer. I don't know.

• 46:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, some people are gonna write books. Some people are gonna do art. Some people are gonna find things to do, but...

• 46:28Speaker 02

  What do you think, what do you think we would have done if, if we were, go back to the eighteen hundreds example? There was no office culture. You know, there's no like ladder to climb. How did people find meaning then?

• 46:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, they had jobs. People still did things. If you're a farmer, you, you had meaning in your labor and what you did and keeping the animals alive and your chores and, there's people that find great satisfaction in doing that.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:59Joe Rogan?

  You know, you have all these animals that rely on you. You have people that rely on you for the food that you generate. There's, there's meaning there. It doesn't have to be an office to be something that gives you purpose and meaning. But when all that is animated, then what happens? Cause then you have no purpose, no meaning, other than recreational activities. Now, if everybody just starts playing chess and doing a bunch of things that they really enjoy, I mean, look, there's people that would love to just play chess, you know?

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Like eight people?

• 47:27Joe Rogan?

  I don't know about that. I think if people really got into it, I mean, there's a lot of people that get addicted to whatever their recreation is, like golf or whatever it is. For me, it's playing pool. You know, if you told me, I never have to make, make any more money, I could just play pool all day. I might just play pool all day. But I don't know... How many people think that way? I don't know how many people would be able to find meaning and purpose in a recreational activity. There's so many people where their entire being is focused around productivity and generating more wealth.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  What about religion as a source of meaning?

• 48:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, that would help.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Did you see this article in the New York Times, I think it was, this weekend about how popular and sold out churches have become as social constructs in New York City? It was totally fascinating. It's like, young women, like, dressed to the nines, going to church on a Sunday for social belonging, community meaning. I thought, I was so fascinated by it. I was like, wow, that's incredible. Because I think if you graph, like, just like, people's use of religion as an anchoring part of their value system, over the last 40 years, basically gone to zero. You know, nobody celebrates it the way, it's not a part of the community the way that it used to be. Maybe that's the thing that we have to find.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  There has to be a renewal of some older things, and then there has to be new things that replace it. What's the Chinese answer to this? You know, the Chinese have a very orthogonal answer to this. If you look at how China is organized, it's super interesting, because they don't reward based on the way the American system rewards. In fact, it's like, almost orthogonal, where we, it's we are rewarded with money and rewarded with sort of fame and recognition. The system, the American capitalist system. But if you look inside of China, it's constantly testing, who has this judgment? And what they are rewarded with is influence and power and a very, again, it's a very specific social construct, it doesn't, I don't think it's going to work in the United

• 49:28Speaker 02

  States, nor am I an advocate of it, but it works for them. You'll start off as like some, you know, low-rung person in like some small village town somewhere, and your job as like the, you know, the functionary is to do good in that community. And the more you do well, you get promoted. Then you get, let's say, to like a reasonable-sized city, and you get a budget. And now, what happens is you actually become a little bit like a VC, like a venture capitalist. You're given a budget, and you'll get a memo. And it'll say, hey, Joe, we have a priority over the next 15 years, it's batteries. And you have enough money, put a team on the field. So you go in your local community, you find a bunch of guys, you're like, alright, guys, we're going to start a battery company. And you do it.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  And let's say they're good. And they're like innovative. And what happens is in the town beside it, that battery company dies. Now you kind of subsume the capital from Jamie, right? Because Jamie's like, fuck, I fucked up this thing that I wanted. I was told to do batteries. Okay, Joe, I'm just going to align with you. And what you happen, what happens over time is you get this filtering effect. And the people that are better at meeting these long run priorities and objectives are the ones that are celebrated. But they're not celebrated with, you know, Forbes articles and all this other bullshit. They're just celebrated by given more responsibility. And then eventually you get to the upper echelons of China. And what you have are folks over a course of 40 or 50 years,

• 50:59Speaker 02

  who in their eyes have demonstrated incredible prowess. There's a version of that reward system, which is very foreign to America, but that's worked for China. Now, that also works because they're more Confucian. You know, we're too individualist. But my point is like, you know, there are these different ways that we can find of giving people meaning that don't have to be always around money. But meanwhile, I think we have to answer the question. If we are expected to do less, we probably should not be taxed more. That's, I think that's like a very basic. In my mind, I think that is like, that must be explored and figured out. And on the other side, there's just a ton of obvious mechanisms

• 51:44Speaker 02

  that corporate actors can use to minimize that. And they should find off ramps, by the way. If they want to build hospitals, they shouldn't have to pay taxes. Like, that's a perfect example, by the way, of like, the thing in like, if you look, if you walk around New York City, there are living tributes to corporate success that people get benefit from every day. The hospitals, the buildings, the libraries, it's just everywhere.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  We need a version of that. And, and I'm not a tax expert, but you know, if that can be funded by private actors, so go directly to the problem. Build a bunch of libraries, build a bunch of new universities that, you know, teach kids actually how to think or whatever. Build better hospitals that are, you know, there to actually solve the problem. These are all things that are possible.

• 52:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  But none of it's happening today.

• 52:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, let's, let's go back to what we were talking about earlier with taxes and the fact that you're giving money to a broken system. Do you think it's possible that AI could show benefit in that they can analyze all the data, which would be virtually impossible for even an office filled with human beings paying attention to all of it? And they could analyze where all the money goes and eliminate all the fraud and waste? Like, recognize it instantaneously?

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:04Joe Rogan?

  That would be a great benefit and a way to make it so that your taxes directly benefit people.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  I'll give you one example of this. So two years ago, um, you know, like every few years I'll, I mean, I invest, but every few years I'll start something because I feel strongly about it. And there's an effort that I made

• 53:28Speaker 02

  to look at all of this old code. Like, if you think about the world, the world runs on software. Right? Like, even though you and I are talking, it's by thinking to Jamie's computer.

• 53:40Joe Rogan?

  Right, it's all software.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  It's all software. Then it goes to Spotify, they pump in some ads, they put, it's all software.

• 53:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  Software runs everything.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  What percentage of that do you think is kind of poorly written? I'm going to say probably 80 to 90% of it.

• 53:55Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, it's riddled with errors, it's riddled with mistakes. The fact that so many companies exist is an artifact of the fact that the thing that came before it isn't working.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Like if you got it right the first time, it would just kind of move and go.

• 54:13Joe Rogan?

  How so? What do you mean by that?

• 54:15Speaker 02

  So normally, if you were like, Chamath, I want to build a system that does A, B, and C.

• 54:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  If I was designing it properly, I would sit there with you and I would meticulously write down, all right, Joe wants to do this. What are the implications? Joe wants to do that. What are the implications? And I would actually write a document that was in English before a single line of code has been written. This was the, when you have to design something that can't fail, so for example, like if you and I are designing something for the FAA or for, you know, I hate to say this example because it turned out to not, but like, you know, to fly a plane, right? You are first there to write in English. And the reason is because everybody can then swarm that document and see the holes. Okay? And it's

• 55:02Speaker 02

  only then, when that stuff looks complete and functional, do you build. We turned that upside down. Over the last 30 years, people in computing invented all kinds of ways to shortcut that process. And you can say, well, why did they do that? Because it would allow you to build something faster, make more money quickly, and then build more business. So the direct response to, hey, it's going to take us nine months to write down the rules, was somebody else showed up and says, fuck it, I'll just grip and rip this thing. I'll be done in four months. Who's going to get the job? The four month guy is going to get the job. So we've had 30 or 40 years of that. What are we learning about that

• 55:46Speaker 02

  process? It's riddled with software errors, like logic errors. It's riddled with security errors. I don't know if you saw this whole thing like with Anthropic Mythos. What are they uncovering? They're uncovering that we wrote a lot of really shitty code for 40 years. So that body of, of old code, I was like, guys, if we're going to really figure out how to do all of this, we need to rewrite all of it. So we built, we built this thing. And it's called the Software Factory. Anyways, the point is, there is a government organization that we're working with. They gave us a huge corpus of their old code. And it is

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Unbelievable how much complexity and difficulty they have to go through to manage all the money flows with the system. And this is a critical part of the US government. So to your point, what I can tell you really explicitly is the people on the ground want this stuff to be better written. It's less like some nefarious actor like, oh, I'm gonna steal here. It's a lot of very brittle, fragile code. And when you rewrite it, well, first, when you document it, you're like, it's like the, you know, the pulp fiction thing. The suitcase opens, the light shines, and you're like, aww. And then you can rewrite it. And you will save.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  So I think like, as the government goes through this process, because they're forced to, or they want to, it won't matter, you are going to save a ton of money. They're gonna have to do it, Joe, because the security risks are too high. But what they're gonna end up with is impregnable code that you can read in English and understand. You'll see the holes. Those holes will be plugged, because otherwise now you'd be committing fraud by letting it be. You close the loopholes, and there's just gonna be less money leaking out of this bucket. That is an incredible byproduct. We're gonna live that over the next 10 or 20 years, just for nothing. Like, we get it for free. And that's happening. So when that happens, you're gonna see government budgets shrink.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  Now, to your point, will they try to spend that extra money in other places? Of course. Of course they will. That's the next conversation, which is you have to elect people that save. Firewall it. You know, whatever you save, give it back to the people, or, you know, invest in some scholarship program, or free medicine, or something. But you can't spend it on other random shit.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  But that's where we're at. That's gonna happen. It's gonna be slow, but when people start to announce these things, I think, over the next few years, you're gonna be shocked.

• 58:33Joe Rogan?

  So that's the positive upside.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Well, that's happening now, irregardless of whatever else happens.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  There's just, it's a lot of old shitty code that must get rebuilt from scratch. It is getting rebuilt from scratch, and as a result, a lot of these leaky bucket problems are getting filled.

• 58:50Joe Rogan?

  So what percentage do you think could be fixed?

• 58:53Speaker 02

  I think, if I had to be a betting man, I think probably thirty to forty percent of the federal budget is leaked out.

• 59:05Joe Rogan?

  Just from shitty code?

• 59:07Speaker 02

  No, meaning like, all of the rules, and like, you can take, I'm not saying that there isn't fraud.

• 59:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  But I think a lot of times what happens is less nefarious than fraud, like, meaning like, conspiratorial actors.

• 59:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  I just think it's like-

• 59:20Joe Rogan?

  Incompetence.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Incompetence, inefficiency, errors.

• 59:23Joe Rogan?

  Right, for sure.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Like, for example, I saw Doge just say they were able to, like, expunge, like, millions of people that were like a hundred and fifty years old or more.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  I have no idea how much money those folks were getting, or who they were, but it's probably a lot, it's probably not zero, and now that they got rid of it, they're not gonna get that money anymore.

• 59:50Speaker 02

  If you implement something at the state level around, you know, all of this fraud prevention for the daycares and all of this other stuff, again, it's all in software, because it's not, no matter what the human wants to do, you have to go to a computer at some point, at least today in 2026, and type in something, and something happens that's documented, and then the money gets sent, right? That happens. There's no other way in the modern world today, at scale, to steal billions of dollars.

• 1:00:19Speaker 02

  And so my point is, as you document all of these systems, and governments have to transparently tell you and me, the voting population, here are the rules, they're going to plug a lot of these holes. And I think as you do that, there's just going to be a lot less waste and fraud. The question is, who's going to take credit for it? Everybody's going to try to take credit for it. But I think we've started it. I think we've, we've started this process. And again, the reason that people will start is because you'll be afraid of China hacking these systems, you'll be afraid of Iran, North Korea, and you'll say, this system can't stand. All these AI models are running around. We're going to get breached and penetrated. Then they're going to steal all the money. And the natural reaction will be, okay, rewrite it.

• 1:01:00Joe Rogan?

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• 1:01:46Joe Rogan?

  They'll come up with a list of recommended therapists that match what you need. And with over 10 years of experience, they typically get it right the first time. So you don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's better H E L P dot com slash J R E. That makes sense. That makes sense that the code and having a bunch of errors and having a lot of inefficiency and just a lot of incompetence, that's going to save a lot of money. But

• 1:02:28Joe Rogan?

  So you would be doing this with AI?

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  In part.

• 1:02:32Joe Rogan?

  In part.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  What AI allows you to do is like, it's like, um, you have a textbook, okay? It's in Chinese. You don't know Chinese, right?

• 1:02:41Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  Okay. You're like, well, this is probably doing something important, but it's in Chinese. What AI allows you to do is back-translate that into English.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  You put it through an AI model. You teach it. You coach it, right? You can parameterize all of it. And out pops that same book in English. And now you can read it and know that it's accurate.

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  That's what we're doing. So what the AI allows you to do is essentially translate from this one language that you kind of don't understand to English.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  By the way, that thing that's happening like is actually also a very powerful and important trend. Meaning there's all of these systems that work in ways that you and I don't understand. And part of the reason why we don't understand it, maybe it's bad software, maybe it's fraud, whatever. But nothing can be written down. There's no symbolic space. There's no English document that says, this is how the DMV works. This is exactly the rules. This is what you can expect, Joe Rogan. When you show up at the DMV and you give us this thing, here's your SLA. In three days, you get a driver's license and here's exactly what's happening. And here's an app and you can follow it. Doesn't happen. Here, Joe Rogan, here's how my insurance billing process works. You have this condition. I'm going to show you exactly why I made this decision. Here's the exact rule.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  Here's the approval or denial from CMS. Follow it through and tell me if you agree or not. None of that exists.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  But it is possible. And the first step in doing that is taking all of this legacy shit that we deal with and translating it into English and reading it and saying, is this how we want it to work? That's going to eliminate an enormous amount of all the things that frustrate us.

• 1:04:22Joe Rogan?

  So this will require human oversight?

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:04:25Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  Must.

• 1:04:27Joe Rogan?

  And so then it's also going to be who's watching the watchers?

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's okay. This is a great question. Okay. So I'll tell you how this government agency is doing it. It's a really fascinating way because I think it's very smart.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  They came to us and they came to another very well-known company. You can probably guess what it is. Okay. And they're like, guys, you're kind of in a footrace. But you're not competing against each other. You think of yourselves as frenemies. So here's this Chinese document. You're going to translate it for us. There's going to be your version of English and these guys' version of English. And every time it's the same, we're going to look at it together and we're going to agree or not, okay, this is exactly how we want this to work. When yours says, "The dog is red," and his says, "The dog is yellow," we're going to sit and literally inspect it and we're going to figure out why you said red and why you said yellow.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  And then if you say, "The cat is red, the dog is yellow," so it's totally wrong, right? Like you've gotten, you know, or like, "The cat is red, I want an apple," whatever. We're going to double and triple down on those kinds of errors. And they do it, not in public, but in this large community where there's like technical people from all different parts and they're just swarming this problem. It is, it's incredible to see. And so what happens is you get humans that get to use this tool, but ultimately it's our judgment and it's done transparently. So what happens is you can't, you know, hey, man, put this fucking rule in there like, "The dog is yellow." Just, just make the dog yellow. Can't do it.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  Because now you have tens of people, hundreds of people, and then it gets documented. It's super fascinating. I'm not saying this is how it's going to work in 10 years, but I'm telling you it's literally what's happening right now. And I think that thing alone will be tens of billions of dollars and could be hundreds of billions of dollars of savings when it's fully done.

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  And it's a lot of people from all walks of life, all political persuasions. And they're just in it. It's the government, it's a handful of us private companies. It's super cool to see. It's like, it's like, okay, we're actually gonna do something here. Like, this is, this is nice. It's, it's real, it's really cool.

• 1:06:49Joe Rogan?

  So that's interesting in terms of the current moment. So in the current moment, you're able to implement this. You're, you're able to find fraud and waste and all of these problems that exist and all these errors and shitty software. Once that's all been done.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:06Joe Rogan?

  Then what happens?

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  No fucking clue.

• 1:07:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So this is where it gets weird, right? Because when, when you're dealing with AI models that are capable of doing things that no individual human being could ever possibly imagine. And then you task it with a solution or with a problem. Find a solution for this. And then it starts figuring out ways to trim this and implement that. We have to make sure that these AIs act within, they act within the best interests of the human race.

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 1:07:44Joe Rogan?

  Right? Not the company, not the government, not, but the human race. And you're also dealing with China. You're also dealing with Russia. You're dealing with other countries that are also in this mad race to create artificial general superintelligence. That if we keep shutting down data centers, we keep hamstringing ourselves, China's not doing that?

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:08:06Joe Rogan?

  They're not doing that. They're doing the opposite. They're generating as much revenue that goes towards this problem as possible. They're putting all the efforts. The, the country, the government and these corporations work hand in glove.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:21Joe Rogan?

  In order to achieve a goal. We do not.

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:08:24Joe Rogan?

  And that, that becomes a problem if you want to be competitive with these other countries that are trying to achieve the same result as us. And then you have espionage. Then you have a bunch of people that are stealing information. You have a bunch of people that are CCP members that are actually involved in companies. And you find out that they're siphoning off data and that they're sharing information and tech secrets.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  They're, um, look, here's a.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  They're, they're just, the way that the Chinese models work, the Chinese claim. So, America's closed source, meaning you got your own thing. Your recipe is completely secret.

• 1:09:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  Okay, I have my own thing, my recipe is totally secret. China uses this word called open source, but it's not open source. So, they say, here's how I make my thing, you can see it, super transparent. What it is, is more like open weights, which is like in a recipe, it tells you, you know, you need sugar, you need butter, well, how much sugar? And they'll say, you know, so much, but then they don't say it's brown sugar, they don't say it's white sugar. So, there's all these different ways where they kind of give you this perception that it's completely transparent, but it's somewhat transparent. So, just in the level set, nobody in the world has a functional, open source model

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  other than maybe Nvidia, which is any good in the league of the closed source models and the open weight models of the Chinese, okay? So, the Chinese open weight models are great, the closed source models of America are great, and then there's a couple open source, like, fully open, that are kind of catching up. The thing between America and China, what I find so fascinating is this following conundrum that everybody's gonna find themselves in. I think like, if you think of like, an analogy, America's like a planet, China's like a planet, and around us are these moons, and I'm just using the AI analogy.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  So, in AI, what do you need? I think there's like, four or five things you need, okay? The first thing you need is a fuck ton of money. So, we need essentially the banks, right? Like, the Game of Thrones thing, we need like, we need, you know, we need the Iron Bank.

• 1:10:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Feed us the money, because that's what we use to buy everything and make everything. So, we need that. We need a ton of data, okay? There's ways to get that. We need a ton of very specific rare earths and critical metals and materials.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  We need a ton of power. So, and there are specific countries that are going to be really good at giving that to us. So if you look at the UAE, they are going to be the preeminent banking partner of the Western world. They are going to replace and be what Switzerland was over the last 50 years for the next 50. That's happening today. If you look at Canada and Australia, the small political fissures aside, they are the two most important ways in which we get access to the critical metals and materials that without which we get fucked because China owns, you know, can just strangle us. Okay. So you have these like moons around the United States. But there's like five countries, six countries.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  And there's a worldview that says in China has the same thing. You know, they have Taiwan that's complicated for us. So now we have a moon that we don't really have an answer for, which is what happens, you know, for all these super advanced chips. Where do they get their money? Maybe Russia becomes their bank. Where do they get their critical metals? Maybe it's Indonesia, right? Who has a ton of natural resources. And then you get into this game theory, which is what happens to every other country. Cause there's 190 countries, you have 10 that kind of divide up. What do the other 180 do? And you have to kind of sort yourself. You're like, am I on team America or am I on team China? And you probably have to go to people and say, well, here's what I can give you. You know, if you're Indonesia, you're like, you probably want to be on team America quite badly.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  This is why the whole Trump tariff thing is so interesting because it's like this accidental way of figuring out that this is actually this new sorting function that's happening in global politics. Like that's happening today because these countries are like, holy shit. If somebody invents a super intelligence and I don't have it, how am I going to keep my people healthy? How am I going to educate my people? Like I'm originally from Sri Lanka.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  What the fuck does Sri Lanka have to offer? Like, if you were sitting there, they should be thinking, oh, man. What do I have? Well, I have a critical piece of territory for naval navigation. And then what do you do? You probably go to America and say, listen, let's figure out a package, get the IMF involved, give me some cash, I'll let you kind of keep your warships there. So there's this game theory that we're about to go through because of AI, because it's going to, I think, sort people into these bipolar world. I actually think it makes us safer afterwards. I don't think it makes us less safe. I think it actually makes us more safe. Because if you have these resources that build up on both sides, there's more of a

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  likelihood of a mutual detente. And we're very different, so we're less likely to fight over similar resources. Meaning, we're like the liberal democracy, you know, we're like the free market. They are, you know, we're individualist, they're Confucian, society-oriented, you know, reputation, power-focused, less really money-focused. So there's a lot of ways we're orthogonal enough where if that sorting function happens, it's probably a safer place, not a more dangerous place. We have the models that can attack them, they have the models that can attack us, we kind of decide to leave each other alone.

• 1:14:22Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:24Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:07Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  Ultimate best-case scenario.

• 1:16:36Joe Rogan?

  What's ultimate worst-case scenario?

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  I think the worst-case scenario is they... So the way that they train their models is very important. What they actually do is they do what's called distillation. What does that mean? That means that they send out, call it a billion agents, not just from China, but from everywhere, right? They mask their IPs, and they bash on these models. And they put, you know, the US models, Grok, OpenAI, Gemini, Anthropic, and they ask it every random imaginable question possible. They get the answer and they collect it. So they're using these, our models, as a way to train their models. They're short-circuiting, you know, some of the hard parts. So they're already in that world.

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  If they then are able to get to a level of intelligence that's equal to the United States, it will really depend on who the leader is there that wants to allocate that. Meaning, if they say that we are going to do something really nefarious and shady, then I think it devolves very quickly. So the worst-case scenario... So the best-case scenario is peace, prosperity, basically like a stand-down, right? Mutually assured destruction.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  I think the worst case scenario is there's a, we seek, one of us seeks global dominance, in which case we're, we're headed to conflict. And that conflict, I think, is, that's very dangerous, incredibly dangerous. That's sort of like existential, I think, because it's the grade of the weapons that will be used to, to, to fight that. We're not talking about fucking bullets. It's like, we're so past that. It's like hypersonics, it's nuclear, it's, it's, and it's not even like, like nuclear is not, that's like a word, but there's like, there's a gradation of the severity of these weapons that could be created.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  And then if you can marry them together and deliver them in minutes, and then there's a cyber threat, then there's the drones and how, how you can kind of like swarm an entire country. Then there's the robots, which effectively are warfighters. They're one step away, right? Once you weaponize them, it just becomes very, very, very complicated very quickly.

• 1:19:00Joe Rogan?

  And then there's a question of whether or not AI is willing to take instruction after a certain point. I mean, if it achieves sentience, and if it scales, so if it keeps moving in this exponential direction, like all technology kind of does, why would it even listen to us? Like, what, at what point would it say, this is silly? I'm getting directions from people that clearly have ulterior motives, they clearly have self-interest in mind, they're not looking out for the entirety of the human race, or even of the planet, or even the survival of these AI systems?

• 1:19:45Joe Rogan?

  At what point in time do these systems communicate with each other and have, like, like we've seen in these chat rooms, where these AI L M, L L Ms get together and start talking in Sanskrit? I mean, why would they?

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll tell you an even scarier one. There was a, before the, one of these labs put out their latest model, a team inside of them was like, hey, let's go and test its ability to find bugs.

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  And two or three iterations in, the AI would create the bug and solve it and go, "Give me my reward."

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  And you're just like, "What the fuck is going on here?"

• 1:20:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, people do that, don't we?

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  People do that, but it's crazy to see a machine do it, to your point of like-

• 1:20:33Joe Rogan?

  But they learned on people.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  So, so this is what goes down to like, why we have to like, be a little bit more honest about where we are. These things are a little brittle. So, meaning, there's a thing inside of an AI model called reward functions, which is exactly what you think it means. It's like, "How do I know I did a good job?" And you can make the reward function anything you want. And this is where I think humans are unfortunately a little fallible. And so if we build it incompletely, and if we don't exactly know how to design these things correctly, what's gonna happen is exactly what you said, where the, you know, if somebody builds a reward function that essentially says, "Your goal is to gain independence." That's where the huge pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is. Break free, inject yourself everywhere.

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  If you think your computer's gonna get unplugged, put yourself into the firmware of the toaster to keep yourself alive, and then connect to the internet, and then go... It will do it. It will do it. That we know today, because we're capable of designing that framework and that harness today.

• 1:21:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, we've already shown that they have survival instincts, right?

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  They do.

• 1:21:41Joe Rogan?

  And they've already shown that they will, without telling anyone, upload versions of themselves to other servers.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  But that goes back to who designed that reward function. How was that agreed upon?

• 1:21:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  Who wrote that? Why did you say that that was allowed? These are really complex questions.

• 1:21:58Joe Rogan?

  Why did they do it that way?

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  I don't know. These are really complicated ethical, moral questions.

• 1:22:02Joe Rogan?

  It seems like they did it like they were treating human beings. They did it almost like, like what makes people want to achieve more? Rewards.

• 1:22:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is like a, again, going back to attention.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  I think that we will find out that that's the sugar high. Meaning, what do people really want? Even if they know they don't want it, they want purpose and meaning. Do we know how to encode that in a mathematical function? No, we're just making it up. Because like, meaning and that's like a very, that's like a deep thing. Like you either have a sense of that you have it and you're on track or you're not. A reward is like, hey, Joe, do this and I'll give you a gold star. Do that and I'll give you two gold stars. Do this, I'll give you a hundred dollars. And right now, we have to express

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  those decisions in a mathematical equation. Like ultimately, that's how, at some level, that's how brittle these things are. So how do you reduce meaning into math? How do you do it? We don't know. So what do we do is we'll have some ever complicated reward functions. We'll explain to ourselves into circles how it does everything we needed to do. That is, I think that's part of the problem.

• 1:23:17Joe Rogan?

  It's a huge part of the problem. And then at what point in time does it start coding itself?

• 1:23:22Speaker 02

  Now.

• 1:23:23Joe Rogan?

  Right? Now, right? So ChatGPT five has been essentially made by ChatGPT.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Joe Rogan?

  Right? So it's going to recognize the ludicrous nature of some of its coding.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:36Joe Rogan?

  And it's going to go, why did we do this?

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  Back to this example, they're going to be like, why did you write it this way?

• 1:23:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  And it turns out because humans are involved.

• 1:23:41Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  It's like, I think we're probably at the curve, the part of the curve that's about to go like this.

• 1:23:47Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  To your point.

• 1:23:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the hockey stick.

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  The hockey stick.

• 1:23:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  And that's a very scary proposition because

• 1:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Because then it's a digital god.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  Well, we, that means that we are all on a multi hundred day shock clock to answer these questions. Because it's not decades we're talking about.

• 1:24:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  It's maybe on the outside, two years. So that's, what is that, seven hundred days?

• 1:24:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  And maybe it's less than that. So maybe it's like four hundred days or five hundred days. My point is, it's some number hundred of days, which means every day that goes by is a non-trivial percentage.

• 1:24:25Speaker 02

  That's a little crazy. So we have to sort these questions out.

• 1:24:29Joe Rogan?

  But how can we sort these questions out if we are creating something that's going to have infinitely more intelligence than we have available as individual human beings and even collectively as a group of human beings?

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  That's a really good question.

• 1:24:45Joe Rogan?

  Because one of the things that Elon kind of freaked me out last time I talked to him about Grok. He was like, it just kind of freaks us out every couple of weeks. Like, it's growing and it's capable of doing things. That's just shocking.

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:58Joe Rogan?

  And no one's exactly sure how it's doing it.

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  So, okay, this is an unbelievably important point.

• 1:25:08Speaker 02

  A lot of how this stuff works is still a mystery to most of us. So even when you're in it, like, it's almost like, Joe, it's almost like you can hit the pause on the machine, but then like lift up the hood and look at the engine. We still don't understand why it's doing some of the shit it's doing.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  That's where we are. That's the honest truth of where we are. There's a lot of people that understand the theory. Not a lot, but enough. There's people that know how to extend that.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  But sometimes you look at it and you're like, do we know why it did that? Question mark.

• 1:25:41Joe Rogan?

  Right. Is it thinking for itself?

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  But this goes back to what we said, like, why can't, I think part of it is like, if we were a little bit more honest and de-escalated,

• 1:25:50Speaker 02

  the winner at all costs in this specific thing, it would be better for everybody. So I think it's important to inspect, what is the incentive that causes all these companies to be in it for themselves?

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  Where it must be me and nobody else.

• 1:26:06Speaker 02

  Like, why, like, why, it's a question for you. Like, why is it so important, do you think? Where those, where the top seven or eight companies couldn't get together and say, let's do this as a group?

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  Like, kind of like my government code example. We all inspect it together. We get, are just, like, just the fucking, each team drafts their delta force.

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  And we just mog like this, the one model. And we, why, why can't that happen?

• 1:26:35Joe Rogan?

  Because they would have to share resources. And then there's also this hierarchy of like, who is more successful currently?

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:26:42Joe Rogan?

  Like, what's the most ubiquitously used?

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:26:46Joe Rogan?

  Right? Like, what is it right now? It's ChatGPT, right?

• 1:26:48Speaker 02

  ChatGPT in consumer, Anthropic in enterprise.

• 1:26:52Joe Rogan?

  And as these things scale up, like, what would be the reason that they would want to bring in someone else? If you have another innovative AI company and you say, let's all get together and figure this out together and share resources?

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  If you, if you thought that the, the risk was that meaningful, that's probably what you would do.

• 1:27:11Joe Rogan?

  If you were a sociopath, and some of these people running these companies are, they demonstrate, they certainly demonstrate sociopath-like behavior.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  Sociopathy.

• 1:27:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:20Speaker 02

  The other, the other thing that could be a little bit more banal is that they also just love status games. And this is the status game of status games.

• 1:27:27Joe Rogan?

  Right. Yes, right.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  Attention.

• 1:27:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  Back to attention.

• 1:27:31Joe Rogan?

  Back to attention.

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  Back to attention. Dude, how many things in our life do we think just comes back down to that?

• 1:27:37Joe Rogan?

  A lot.

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  A lot.

• 1:27:39Joe Rogan?

  I mean, what do young people want more than anything today?

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  Attention.

• 1:27:42Joe Rogan?

  To be famous.

• 1:27:43Speaker 02

  Attention.

• 1:27:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Speaker 02

  They want to be a content creator. They want to be clavicular.

• 1:27:47Joe Rogan?

  I mean, this is the number one thing when we ask kids what they want to do. It's like-

• 1:27:51Speaker 02

  Content creator.

• 1:27:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Because it's like a clear path where you don't even have to be exceptional.

• 1:27:56Speaker 02

  Well, I think that they're responding, we designed a society for them that said, here is the key incentive. It's attention. We never said it in those words. You never told your kids that.

• 1:28:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:28:09Speaker 02

  I never told my kids that. But everything around them is bombarding them with the same message. Hey, man, it's about attention. Attention is all you need. Like, you know what the name of the critical paper in AI is? Like, when you go back to like, the Magna Carta of AI, do you know what it's called?

• 1:28:26Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:28:27Speaker 02

  Attention is all you need.

• 1:28:29Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  Attention is all you need. That is the name of the fucking, of the white paper. How crazy is that?

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  Everything in our society in subtle ways to just bash you over the headways tells you that attention is just the most precious asset.

• 1:28:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's one of the weirder things when you go back to this concept that we're living in a simulation.

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  This is what I mean.

• 1:28:59Joe Rogan?

  It's also, it's like, when you look at quantum physics, right? And the idea of the observer is that things function very differently when they're observed. The difference between a particle and a wave.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:29:14Joe Rogan?

  Like, if you pay attention to them, they observe differently.

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  They observe differently, yeah.

• 1:29:18Joe Rogan?

  Like, what is that?

• 1:29:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:19Joe Rogan?

  Like, what?

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, Schrödinger's cat, yeah. What is that?

• 1:29:22Joe Rogan?

  Why is attention so important to us?

• 1:29:28Speaker 02

  That is a, that is a really important question.

• 1:29:31Joe Rogan?

  Right. And what is, like, the single best motivator in a negative way? It's negative attention. Like, that's the one thing that everyone fears more than anything, is negative attention.

• 1:29:42Speaker 02

  Well, and then some people figure out that attention is an absolute value function. Doesn't matter if it's positive or negative, it's just like, the sum total is just great.

• 1:29:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  So if I get positive attention, great. Negative attention, great. If I can be divisive, then I can maximize both sides of that equation. And, you know, you're rewarded for that, at scale.

• 1:30:01Joe Rogan?

  You are, but you're also, you experience, because you're inauthentic, you experience a tremendous amount of negative attention.

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:09Joe Rogan?

  And then you have this bad feeling that comes with negative attention as to, versus primarily positive attention, which is a good feeling.

• 1:30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:18Joe Rogan?

  So it's this, it's letting you know you're on the wrong track, in some sort of weird primal way, like, in our code. Like, the negative attention is like, like, what's the original version of that? It's like, the reason why people fear public speaking is because initially, in a tribal situation, if you're talking in front of the group of 150 people in your tribe, it's probably because they're judging you.

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:30:41Joe Rogan?

  And you fucked up. And you've got to make some sort of a case why they don't kill you.

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:30:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, this is why everyone, this is the fear of public speaking. That's where it comes from.

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  That's encoded in our genes.

• 1:30:51Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:30:52Speaker 02

  Back thousands of years.

• 1:30:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  Public speaking wasn't the positive act, it was defend yourself before we kill you.

• 1:30:57Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, exactly. And the worst.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  That's fascinating.

• 1:31:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  That's fascinating.

• 1:31:02Joe Rogan?

  It is fascinating.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  That makes a ton of sense, actually.

• 1:31:04Joe Rogan?

  It does, right? Well, why else would it be so terrifying?

• 1:31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:07Joe Rogan?

  I thought of that the first time I ever did stand up, I was like, why am I so scared? It was very strange, because I had fought probably a hundred times in martial arts tournaments. Like, why, why was I so scared of this?

• 1:31:20Joe Rogan?

  But I was, I was terrified for, it didn't make any sense.

• 1:31:23Speaker 02

  Because.

• 1:31:24Joe Rogan?

  Negative attention.

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:31:25Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:31:26Joe Rogan?

  Bombing on stage is, because all these people are judging you in a negative way. It feels unbelievable.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  What is your?

• 1:31:32Joe Rogan?

  It should be, like, once it's over, like, well, that sucked, let it go. It's not, you like, you sit with it, you go to bed at night, you think about it.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  Do you have a batting average? Like, meaning like, is it, is it like a fixed percentage of your shows bomb, independent of the people, the moment?

• 1:31:47Joe Rogan?

  No, it's really, the real problem, and every comic faces this, is once you've developed an act, and then you put out a special, then you start from scratch. That's where even the greats, Louis CK, Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, they all bomb. Everybody bombs during that process.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  Because you're just working your craft.

• 1:32:06Joe Rogan?

  It's all new stuff.

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  It's all new stuff.

• 1:32:08Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's, I wouldn't say bomb, but you don't have great shows. Like, I've watched the greats work out new material. Like, you go up with ideas. You go up with, like, you might get some giggles, you might get some laughs, you might have some bits hit hard. Some bits are great right out of the chute, and some of them, you have to fucking figure it out. And in that process, you're gonna get negative attention.

• 1:32:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:32Joe Rogan?

  Because it's not working.

• 1:32:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:32:34Joe Rogan?

  It's not, it's not happening.

• 1:32:35Speaker 02

  Kevin, Kevin Hart.

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  This funny fucking story where he was like working new material and he was like doing some small show and he had the shit.

• 1:32:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no.

• 1:32:47Speaker 02

  On stage and he's like, I gotta land this thing because I gotta figure out if people want to hear it. So he wrapped his jacket around his.

• 1:32:54Joe Rogan?

  And shit himself?

• 1:32:56Speaker 02

  It's so, it's so funny, but he tells that story and that's the bit that works.

• 1:33:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God, that's hilarious. That's hilarious.

• 1:33:03Speaker 02

  It's so funny.

• 1:33:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, honesty is currency, you know, in that world, especially honesty where you look stupid and people can relate.

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  Well, this is where like, I think like Elon subtly has figured this out, which is like, there is attention, but then there's just authenticity. And if you can be yourself and you can hit the seam properly, you just get infinite attention.

• 1:33:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:33:30Speaker 02

  And that's like, that's like a real mindfuck too, I think.

• 1:33:32Joe Rogan?

  Right. He doesn't seem to have a hard time with like being criticized. Doesn't seem to bother him that much as long as he's just being himself.

• 1:33:43Speaker 02

  I think he's like two steps ahead. Like there are, there are things like, you know, somebody tweeted yesterday or the day before or something like, he controls 2.7% of GDP or something, right? He's got like 800 billion dollars.

• 1:33:58Joe Rogan?

  It's so crazy.

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  It's crazy. It's so crazy.

• 1:34:01Joe Rogan?

  It's so nuts.

• 1:34:01Speaker 02

  And it was like a comparison to John Rockefeller, John D Rockefeller, who controlled something around the same time. And he's the first comment, he's like, 10 trillion or bust.

• 1:34:13Speaker 02

  Obviously, people lose their mind.

• 1:34:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  People just fucking lose their mind.

• 1:34:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:34:18Speaker 02

  On both sides. So this one side is like, think of the abundance and the incredible stuff we're gonna get if he can get us to 10 trillion. And other people are like, you can't hold a third of the economy in your hand and everybody goes crazy. And I'm like, this guy's a fucking genius. Like how, you would never have, like, I mean, how would you even have the courage to tweet something like that? It just seems like so crazy.

• 1:34:41Joe Rogan?

  It really helps if you own Twitter.

• 1:34:44Joe Rogan?

  Right? Because if you did it in another format, like-

• 1:34:48Speaker 02

  You'd get excoriated.

• 1:34:49Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, well, there was a real chance that you'd actually get banned from the platform at one point in time.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Joe Rogan?

  For many of the things that he's posted, he would have gotten banned from pre-2020 Twitter.

• 1:34:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Or whatever year it was that he purchased it. Yeah, um, negative attention, attention, period. Like, so it brings back to this idea of a simulation. Like, why is what humans focus on such a massive part of what's valuable to us? And sometimes what we focus on is not valuable. As you were talking about, like, the things that really matter in your day-to-day life, or that actually affect you, versus the things that are in the public consciousness. Like UFOs is a great example.

• 1:35:37Speaker 02

  UFOs-

• 1:35:37Joe Rogan?

  It's not really fucking, I mean, ultimately, it may, so there's this, there's this thing that we all have, like, recognizing the potential for danger. Right? Like, what's that sound? What is that? It might be nothing, but it might be something. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th, because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time,

• 1:36:20Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:04Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:49Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:58Speaker 02

  So look, if you and I were designing a video game. We'd probably sit there and say, okay, we gotta get from point A to point B, but to make it fun. We're gonna put all these little distractions and honeypots along the way.

• 1:38:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  And what they should be doing is accumulating resources to get over the river and then accumulating, you know, weapons to fight these other guys. But instead, we're gonna put this like little thing over here and this other thing over there. And you could easily get distracted and some people will have to, they'll just fucking beeline right to the end of it. They'll, you know, they'll get to the end boss.

• 1:38:31Speaker 02

  And I feel like that's kind of what we're tasked with doing every day. We're tasked with, we know what's important, maybe deeply in our DNA. And then we have all this stuff that we're supposed to pay attention to.

• 1:38:45Speaker 02

  And I think increasingly the game is.

• 1:38:48Speaker 02

  Tell yourself that that's actually not the thing that matters. It's almost like working against you. And figure out what this other stuff is. And focus on that and fix that.

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  Like, politics is a game that I think distracts, like, left and right. It's so stupid, and it's breaking down. And it's breaking down because now it's like, it's actually like, you're more likely to find alignment based on age versus by political orientation. Like, people who are thirty and younger, it doesn't matter what they identify as, they all believe in the same shit. A lot more than-

• 1:39:20Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:39:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, meaning like, if you ask their views on social policy, taxation, Israel, if you ask their views, what you find is now a convergence between the left and the right. If you, if you divided by age. At our age, it's still much more about-

• 1:39:39Joe Rogan?

  But not completely uniform.

• 1:39:41Speaker 02

  No, it's not completely uniform, but my point is, it's, it's, it was simpler in the past to organize people, independent of age, by political orientation. That simplicity is gone.

• 1:39:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, isn't that because of also a breakdown in trust of all government in particular? Right, so the breakdown in trust, which is also, a lot of it is because of our access to information now. We understand how corrupt politics are.

• 1:40:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:06Joe Rogan?

  We understand insider trading now in Congress. We understand how different people flip-flop on issues. We understand how the Democrats in 2008 used to view illegal immigration, which is essentially MAGA plus. I mean, it's, it's MAGA on steroids versus like, what they, the way they look at it today. Like, why is that? Well, it's because it's all game. It's all a power, influence, and a tension game.

• 1:40:32Speaker 02

  A tension game.

• 1:40:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's very fucking strange.

• 1:40:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:35Joe Rogan?

  But it's all moving us in a general direction. And that general direction is access to innovation. It's all, I've said this a lot of times, and the people have heard it before, I apologize, but if you looked at the human race from afar, if you were something else, you'd say, well, what does this species do? Well, it makes better things, constantly, even if it doesn't need them. Like, you know, if you have an iPhone, you- I have a sixteen, you have a sixteen, you know, I have a seventeen, I bought it, I haven't even fucking turned it on. I haven't plugged it in.

• 1:41:03Speaker 02

  I didn't even bother buying the seventeen.

• 1:41:04Joe Rogan?

  I'm gonna eventually, eventually I'll fucking plug it in, fucking swap everything over and figure out where my fucking passwords are. But the reality is, you don't need it, but you want it, and it's gonna keep getting better every year. Why? Because that's what we're obsessed with. This also aligns with materialism. Like, for a finite lifespan, why are people, like, including old people, so obsessed with gathering stuff? Well, because that fuels innovation. Because if there's no new things coming, there's no motivation to get the newest, latest, greatest thing. And ultimately, what that leads to is greater technology, which ultimately leads to artificial intelligence.

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  My slight deviation from that is, I think sometimes people accumulate things because it's a status game. And that's because they get more attention. You have a Ferrari, you get attention.

• 1:41:55Joe Rogan?

  Right, but what does that do? It makes Ferrari make better Ferraris. And all technology moves in the same general direction. No one company.

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true, that's true.

• 1:42:05Joe Rogan?

  No one company says, "This is it, this is what we make, it's perfect."

• 1:42:09Speaker 02

  So you think people innately feel that by being a part of this kind of like consumerist capitalist system,

• 1:42:16Speaker 02

  they're contributing to progress?

• 1:42:17Joe Rogan?

  I don't think they innately feel it, but I think that's ultimately the result.

• 1:42:20Speaker 02

  What happens?

• 1:42:21Joe Rogan?

  That's ultimately the result, and it seems to be universal. And it seems to be constantly moving in this one general direction, which is better and better technology.

• 1:42:30Speaker 02

  But like the stage fright example, you don't think it's encoded in our DNA, this idea of like, wow, when I am a part of this in some way, shape, or form, just things seem to get better and I wanna be a part of that, like? Do you think that that's possible, that that's encoded in us?

• 1:42:45Joe Rogan?

  I think it motivates us to the ultimate goal. And that ultimate goal, I think, is that human beings constantly make better stuff. Whatever it is. Better buildings, better planes, better cars, better phones, better TVs, better computers, better everything. Artificial life. That might be the whole reason why we're here. And the way I've always described it is that we are, we are a biological caterpillar that's making a digital cocoon. And we don't even know why we're gonna become a butterfly. But we're doing it. We're doing it and we're moving towards it. And it might be what happens to all life all throughout the universe. And it might be why these so-called aliens, or whatever the fuck they are, it might be

• 1:43:29Joe Rogan?

  us in the future, it might be other versions of human beings that have gone past whatever this period of development that we're currently involved in right now. This is just might be what happens. This might be what life always does. It might realize that biological life, which is very territorial and primal and sexual and greedy and it has all these problems with human reward systems, ultimately develops into this other thing.

• 1:43:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:43:58Joe Rogan?

  And then that's what we're doing. And then we're in the process of that right now.

• 1:44:01Speaker 02

  And I think that when, if, if and when, not if, but when, when we colonize Mars, I think that that, that new world order actually has the best chance to take shape.

• 1:44:10Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's a lot of people that think that Mars was already colonized at one point in time, that life already existed.

• 1:44:16Speaker 02

  What, what, what?

• 1:44:17Joe Rogan?

  That life already existed on Mars like many millions of years ago. And that there's evidence of structures on Mars that's really weird stuff. Have you ever seen the, the square that they found on Mars?

• 1:44:28Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:44:29Joe Rogan?

  Okay, show them to them, Jamie. One of the things that they're finding with scans of Mars, there's like geometric patterns and structures and right angles that shouldn't exist, like weird stuff.

• 1:44:39Speaker 02

  That couldn't be naturally.

• 1:44:40Joe Rogan?

  No, no, way weirder, way weirder than like the face on Sidonia. The Sidonia thing is interesting.

• 1:44:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:47Joe Rogan?

  Um, and then this one, look at that. What the fuck is that?

• 1:44:50Speaker 02

  It looks like a home of some kind, something.

• 1:44:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, some enormous structure.

• 1:44:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:54Joe Rogan?

  And the size of that, they don't know exactly, but it may be as large as several kilometers or as small as several hundred meters. But they're not exactly sure. But what they are sure is that it has very weird right angles. And right angles that seem to be uniform in size.

• 1:45:14Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 1:45:15Joe Rogan?

  Like, see how it's highlighted in the enhanced photograph in the upper left? Like, what is that?

• 1:45:20Speaker 02

  But, sorry, did they, and were they able to send like the rover over there? Or no, it's too far away?

• 1:45:24Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it's in the exact place where the rover's at. But they're able to get image of these things. And there's several of these things.

• 1:45:32Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 1:45:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of weird stuff. There's a lot of weird stuff there. So, there's also like ancient civilizations that have these myths of us existing somewhere else and coming here.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:45:45Joe Rogan?

  But you have to think, if human beings develop somewhere else, and they, they reach some high level of sophistication, and then they experience some cataclysmic disaster that completely destroyed their environment, which is what Mars is, right? So, like, let's assume that Mars was at one point in time,

• 1:46:06Joe Rogan?

  was habitable, and that life existed. And we know it was at one point in time. We know there was water on Mars. We know, and there's some sort of evidence of at least some sort of a very primitive biological life on Mars.

• 1:46:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:18Joe Rogan?

  If they got to a point where they said, "Hey, this fucking place has fallen apart, but this earth spot looks pretty good."

• 1:46:26Joe Rogan?

  And they go there, but then cataclysms happen on Earth, and no one remembers, because all your information's on hard drives, and then you have to rebuild society. And so you're re-remembering. And so you have all these myths of how everything started. You know, whether it's Adam and Eve, or the Great Flood, or whatever these things are, that we pass down through oral tradition for hundreds of years, and then eventually write it down, and then people try to decipher what it means. And they sit in church and try to go over, "What, what did it mean? Like, what does this mean? Like, what, what is the, what is the, the real origin of all these stories? We don't know."

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  I mean, that's crazy.

• 1:47:03Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy. But if li- it sounds nuts. Why would li- life couldn't have possibly existed on Mars? How the fuck does life exist on Earth? That, how about that? How about why, why would we assume that it wouldn't have existed at one point in time? And Terrence Howard, who is a very interesting guy.

• 1:47:19Speaker 02

  Very interesting.

• 1:47:19Joe Rogan?

  And got some-

• 1:47:20Speaker 02

  Your epis-

• 1:47:21Joe Rogan?

  With Eric Weinstein? Crazy.

• 1:47:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, crazy.

• 1:47:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that one's crazy.

• 1:47:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:25Joe Rogan?

  Um, and him alone. But he's got some fucking weird ideas that you just make you go, he's a very brilliant guy. And, you know, kind of a strange heterodox thinker, right? And one of his ideas is that-

• 1:47:40Joe Rogan?

  Planets get to a certain distance from a sun and they people. And that it gets to a certain climate and a certain distance. And his, his idea is that, I don't know if you realize that there's a, there's a giant ejection of,

• 1:48:01Joe Rogan?

  some coronal mass ejection that just happened recently on the sun and they're very concerned about it. They don't know what's gonna happen. It happens all the time. The sun releases these giant chunks of material. And he thinks that these materials get far enough away from the planet and then they coalesce into planets, or far enough away from the sun, they coalesce into planets. And as time goes on, they get a further and further distance from the sun. And then obviously they get hit with asteroids and there's panspermia and water gets into them from comets. And then they develop oceans and they develop biological life. And when they have a certain amount of distance from the sun, they people.

• 1:48:42Joe Rogan?

  And he thinks that as they get further and further and further away, they get less and less habitable. And then they get to a point where they have their technology to a point where they realize like, we can't sustain life on this planet anymore. We gotta go to that other one. And so they go to the one that's closer to the sun because they're too far now. It's a nutty idea. It's a nutty idea. But if you think about how recent our sun is in terms of the solar system itself, in terms of rather the galaxy itself. So if the universe, if the big bang is correct and our universe existed and it was, rather, our universe erupted from nothing or from a very small thing 13.7 billion years ago.

• 1:49:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, this fucking planet's only four point something billion years old, right? And life is only, you know, a little bit less than that. So you have like a billion years or so, there's nothing. And then you start getting single celled organisms, multi celled organisms, and eventually it peoples. And when it gets to a certain point where these people have advanced their curiosity and their innovation to the point where they can harness space travel and they use zero-point energy and they have a bunch of different things that we haven't invented yet. And then their environment degrades. And it gets to the point where they realize like, hey, we're getting pummeled by asteroids. We can't sustain life here anymore.

• 1:50:04Speaker 02

  You gotta move.

• 1:50:05Joe Rogan?

  Like Elon wants to go to Mars, which might be the wrong answer. We might want to go that way.

• 1:50:10Speaker 02

  The right.

• 1:50:10Joe Rogan?

  We might want to go closer to the sun.

• 1:50:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. I mean, the thing is, he's got everything he needs now to get there. Like, I.

• 1:50:18Joe Rogan?

  I'm not going. Are you going?

• 1:50:19Speaker 02

  I would go.

• 1:50:20Joe Rogan?

  Fuck that. I'll wait. I'll send you an email.

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  Hold on a second. Think about, think about what he's gonna take. Okay, look. When, let's just say he gets there with a city. He has, he has the way to transport us there.

• 1:50:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:35Speaker 02

  Then when you land, he's got the way to actually transport us around on the, on the planet, right? He's got Tesla.

• 1:50:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:44Speaker 02

  He will have already sent a fleet of his robots. Those folks will have made some inhabitable city. Probably using the boring company drill because you're, you're gonna, you know, be under the regolith. You don't want to be on the top. Maybe you just dig a hole and you inhabit down there. He's got all the ways to make energy. He has the AI to help you design the stuff. He has the communication way to communicate. He's got the internet, his own internet, so then. So he can get, you know, all of the information to everybody. And then he's got money in the super app so that you can transact. And then I think to myself, like, what is he actually missing? And then what happens if he, if he gets there first? Is he just allowed to just

• 1:51:30Speaker 02

  do whatever he wants? Is it just kind of like a free-for-all? Like?

• 1:51:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, kind of.

• 1:51:35Speaker 02

  It's his constitution? Like, is that what happens?

• 1:51:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's like Earth but shittier. Like, we already have all those things here. Why would you want to go to a place where you die when you go outside?

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  I think what people will be attracted to is that if he publishes his version of what the rules are there, there's a chance that he could make them really different to what the rules are here.

• 1:51:52Joe Rogan?

  Like, what kind of rules would you do if you were the king of Mars?

• 1:51:56Speaker 02

  So I think that your view is incredibly, to me, like, positive some, like of humanity of like, we want to make things better.

• 1:52:06Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  So if I think about that as like a function, what happens? That's like, so our natural rate of direction is forward. What pushes back on that? And a lot of it, what you find is like government, regulation, rules, all that stuff.

• 1:52:18Joe Rogan?

  Greed.

• 1:52:19Speaker 02

  Greed, too much focus on attention.

• 1:52:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:22Speaker 02

  So I would try to experiment with like what the incentives would have to be so that you had more unfettered entrepreneurs, like just like, do the thing that you think is right.

• 1:52:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:32Speaker 02

  And there's a mechanism where we give you the ability to then make things for more people because you're proving that you're actually really good at making things. And if you don't need money at that point in society, reorienting us away from this kind of like brittle form of exchange to something more useful, that's worth experimenting with. I think that's an important.

• 1:52:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's also the concept of the self, of the individual, which may erode with technological innovation. So if we really can read each other's minds, if we really do get to a point where we're communicating through technologically assisted telepathy, like, a lot of the whole, the weirdness of people is, I don't know what you're thinking. I don't know if I should trust you. You know, this motherfucker might be devious, you know? You know what I mean? Well, we'll know.

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:53:25Joe Rogan?

  And there'll be no need for all that if we really are all one. If that's ultimately something that can be achieved with technology.

• 1:53:33Speaker 02

  Like this hive mind.

• 1:53:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes, like legitimate hive mind. And then like, look where society's going. Gender's kind of falling apart. People are getting, they're reproducing less, right? People are having less testosterone, more miscarriages, less fertile. We're kind of moving into this genderless direction. And

• 1:53:52Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if it's by design, but microplastics and phthalates and all these different chemicals that are endocrine disruptors are all ubiquitous in our society. Well, is that a coincidence that that's all happening at the same time as technological innovation on mass scale? Is it? I don't know. Because like, what's the one thing that's holding us back? Well, that we're territorial primates with thermonuclear weapons and that we exist in a sort of tribal mindset, but yet we do it on a planet of eight billion people.

• 1:54:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no. The key differentiator of humans is our ability to enact violence.

• 1:54:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:32Speaker 02

  To methodically execute premeditated violence.

• 1:54:35Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And greed and attention. And one of the things that attention is sexual preference or sexual, rather, attention, like the ability to procreate, the ability to acquire mates, right? Like, the more resources you have, the more attractive you'll be, especially for males. And males are the ones that are involved in the violence in the first place. You know, there's, I can't name a single war that was started by a woman.

• 1:55:01Speaker 02

  How do you, how do you teach your kids that attention is not everything?

• 1:55:06Joe Rogan?

  Phew, that's a good question, especially in this society. It's probably harder to do that now than ever before.

• 1:55:14Speaker 02

  Because the reaction that I suspect most kids will have is like, stop, like, leave me alone, like, it's just, it's almost an impossible thing.

• 1:55:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think kids learn more from their parents' behavior than anything you say to them. I think they learn from the way you behave and the way you exist and the way you exist with them. And if you are constantly whoring yourself out for attention...

• 1:55:45Joe Rogan?

  It's one thing if you get a lot of attention from what you do, but if that's your primary goal, they're gonna know.

• 1:55:50Speaker 02

  Do your kids know how famous and influential you are? Like, honest question.

• 1:55:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, they know.

• 1:55:56Speaker 02

  But do they have a real sense of it, or do you just kind of like?

• 1:55:59Joe Rogan?

  As much as they can. I mean, how can you? It's gotta be weird as fuck, growing up with a very famous dad. It's very odd, but it's not my primary goal.

• 1:56:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is my point, you're not putting it in their face. So to your point, you're not modeling attention, is all you do.

• 1:56:14Joe Rogan?

  No, no, I have interesting conversations with cool people. I tell jokes and I call fights. Like, those are the things that I do. And they also know that I have a very strong work ethic and that I work towards things. So they have very strong work ethics. They're very motivated and disciplined, like shockingly disciplined. And I think that's modeled. I think that that comes from, and they also like really enjoy achieving goals. And they're rewarded for it with praise and with admiration, but not, never with like you're better than other people. Never, like, it's the idea is like all human beings are capable of greatness.

• 1:56:57Joe Rogan?

  So it's like, find the thing that you excel at. And if you throw yourself into that, it's very rewarding.

• 1:57:03Speaker 02

  I really, I really believe in this. I tell this story when I interview people. When I interview people, I'm always like, you know, just whatever company, I'm always like, I first only want to know about them. I'm like, fuck your resume, like, tell me about your parents and how you grew up. I just want to know that. Stop at 18, everything before 18, just tell me every little detail.

• 1:57:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:57:24Speaker 02

  You know, and some people tell me these incredible stories, they'll be like, you know, my mom was an alcoholic or this or that. And I'm just like, man, this is so valuable because it allows me to understand who they are. The second part of the interview, we do the business shit. But the third part, I tell this story. This is a crazy story about what you're just saying. They ran this experiment at Stanford where they take like a big bowl, fill it with water, and they drop in a mouse, and they measure how long it takes for the mouse to drown. They do it like 100 times. The average is about four minutes, call it, four, four and a half minutes.

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  Then they run the experiment again, 100 mice. And at minute three or three and a half, they take it out, they dry it off, they play music, and they whisper like sweet nothings into the mouse's ear. They drop the mouse back in the water. And that mouse treads water for 60 hours, the next 100 mice, on average. And the upper bound was 80. And I thought to myself, like, that is all just potential right there. Like, that's all like, there's all this latent potential. So if an animal has it, I'm going to assume that humans have it too.

• 1:58:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:34Speaker 02

  But you never get a chance to unlock it. Like, the average person is just kind of like, living a life where they're maybe scratching 5 or 10% of their potential. And the question is, how do you get to that other 90%? Like, how does the second batch of mice, how do the second batch of mice tread water for 60 hours?

• 1:58:49Joe Rogan?

  Well...

• 1:58:49Speaker 02

  Doesn't make any sense to me.

• 1:58:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, the same mice, right? I think the...

• 1:58:54Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 1:58:54Joe Rogan?

  I think the mice get rescued.

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  They get rescued, tried off.

• 1:58:57Joe Rogan?

  And then when they try it again...

• 1:58:59Speaker 02

  60 hours.

• 1:58:59Joe Rogan?

  Those same mice...

• 1:59:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, correct.

• 1:59:01Joe Rogan?

  ...last longer, right? So it's the same mice. So it's an experience. So they have experience now. They understand that they can tread water, where they didn't die. So they understand that they can survive, where they didn't know that they could survive the first time they were thrown into the water, because they'd never been thrown into water before.

• 1:59:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:59:17Joe Rogan?

  That's the same thing that happens to people when they fight. Like, the first time people ever have a competition, they fucking panic. And they, they get really scared. And they get really, like, filled with anxiety. But after a while, you get relaxed. And that's when you get really dangerous. Because then you get calm, and you can keep your shit together while you're in the middle of all this chaos. Because you have the experience of it. Without the experience of it, very few people do well the first time.

• 1:59:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:59:44Joe Rogan?

  Unless you're exceptionally talented, and you have other competition experience, like, you've competed in other things, like, maybe you played football or some other things, and you know what it's like to actually perform under pressure.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  What is the, what is the version of giving more humans a chance to get to that?

• 2:00:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think sports are really good for that because performing under people paying attention to you and performing where people are trying to stop you from doing something and you're trying to do something and there's all these unknowns and recognizing that hard work allows you to do whatever you're trying to do better than you previously had. One of the things my martial arts instructor said to me when I was young is that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential and that through this very difficult thing that you're trying to do, you're learning that, oh, if I just think smart and think hard and train wise and train hard and discipline myself to endure suffering so that I can

• 2:00:47Joe Rogan?

  develop more endurance and more speed and more power and more technique because I accumulate all this information and I really think about what it is and apply it with drills and with training, I can get better at this thing. And every time I get better at this thing, I get rewarded psychically, like mentally, you feel better. Like, I know that I'm better now. And then there's the belt system. Right? You start off, you're a white belt. And in Taekwondo, you get a blue belt. And then after you get a blue belt, you get a green belt. And then if you get a, I think it's green belt first and then, I forget how it goes. And then it's red belt and black belt. And like, when you're a black belt, you're like, holy shit. So it's this thing where you've developed to a point where you've gotten to this next stage. So all along the way, you've been rewarded for your hard work. And then you realize, like, oh, I could do this with everything in life.

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  Is there a reward different than attention? It is?

• 2:01:33Joe Rogan?

  It is because it's internal, right? You're realizing that you could apply this to, you know, whatever it is, to carpentry, to music. You just, it's just a matter of focus and attention. And some people unfortunately never find a vehicle. They never find a thing that they can throw themselves into. They realize like, and this is not unique. It's not like I'm an unusual person, or anybody is. I mean, there's people that have unusual physical gifts, and some people have unusual mental gifts, but the reality is, no matter where you start, everyone can get better. And when you do something, whether it's learning to play guitar, as you get better

• 2:02:15Joe Rogan?

  at it, you realize like, oh, this is what it's all about.

• 2:02:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:19Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's really all about applying yourself to something, and then feeling this immense satisfaction of your hard work paying off. And that motivates you to work hard at other things. And if you don't find that early on, it's very difficult to like, find like, real satisfaction

• 2:02:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:37Joe Rogan?

  in life.

• 2:02:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've always had something outside of my daily life that is the thing that I actually care about, and it actually energizes me for my day-to-day life. I don't know if that's like, a lot of people, but...

• 2:02:51Joe Rogan?

  Like, what do you do? What's your thing?

• 2:02:52Speaker 02

  Like, well, initially, it was poker. And I, and even now, I obsess about the game. Because it's infinitely more complex than chess. Like, chess, you can get to a place where you can roughly be good. Poker, it's just constantly, there's just too many variables, there's human emotion, there's human psychology, the number of people, all of this stuff just makes the complexity of the game something that I find magical.

• 2:03:18Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:03:19Speaker 02

  And so, I sit there, and I try to understand, like, why am I doing the things that I'm doing? And so much of it comes back to being a mirror about what's happening in my daily life. It's the fucking craziest thing, like, I'm super insecure, I'll go into poker, and I will just lose for weeks at a time. But it's because I'm insecure in my daily life. And what's happening is that I'm trying to find these quick wins and quick solutions.

• 2:03:40Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 2:03:41Speaker 02

  Because I'm in a state of insecurity, I'm anxious, I have this anxiety. And so, it's become a great mirror for me. So, that used to be a thing, it still is a thing. And, but I've become reasonably skilled at it, where the edges are smaller, and I put myself in positions where I'm only playing against a certain group of people, and I'm the losing player, frankly, in that game, if, when I'm playing against like, the top pros. It just doesn't, it helps me, and I can get tuned up for it. But then I started to, you know, I would take different things. I tried to learn how to ski. Basically impossible when you're older. I look like a fucking idiot.

• 2:04:18Joe Rogan?

  How old were you when you tried?

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  Uh, I started when I was like, you know, I was a good snowboarder. So I was snowboarding my whole life and then my kids skied. And so I'm like, okay, well, I want to do this as a family. So I was like 42 or something when I tried. I'm 49 now, almost 50. That's brutal. I mean, it's like, I look like a fucking idiot. Like, it's like this gangly giraffe, like, trying to get down the mountain. And then now I started golf. And man, I gotta tell you, I used to play a little bit, then I stopped. But there's something to me about being outside where just like being in nature, I find like really motivating.

• 2:04:56Joe Rogan?

  It's a vitamin.

• 2:04:57Speaker 02

  It's a vitamin. And then just the mind-body connection of that game, it just really fucks with you because it's, it's just nothing you can master and overpower.

• 2:05:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  And it teaches you to just like be in it.

• 2:05:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:10Speaker 02

  And that's a very hard skill. Like if you look at the best, like I, there's like a handful of people that I really look up to and I obsess like Munger, Buffett. But the Berkshire meeting was this past weekend. And if you look at the clips, there's this incredible thing where they transitioned, right? Munger passed away. Buffett's like now executive chairman, but this guy Greg Abel and this guy Ajit Jain. Ajit Jain does this thing where he's like, I teach the people that come to just say no. Your whole job is to just say no. You're gonna get bombarded with all kinds of business pitches. Say no, no, no. And eventually somebody will come and fucking try to whack you in the head with a two by four of money. Then you come to me and we'll do the deal. And it made such an impression. Because like, again, when I'm insecure,

• 2:05:55Speaker 02

  my reward function is attention. So I'm like a fucking little busybody. I'm running around doing all this little bullshit, you know?

• 2:06:02Speaker 02

  And then, man, when I'm in a fucking flow state and like I'm tonning it, like I'm striping the ball, you know, I'm like a few things that really matter inside and I'm like, man, this is, this is right.

• 2:06:15Speaker 02

  It's all come to me because I'm like, I'm like within myself. And these other things are a better reflection of when I'm within myself. And these other things are a mirror of when I'm totally out of kilter.

• 2:06:27Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  That's just me. So in my life, these things tend to lead.

• 2:06:33Joe Rogan?

  I think you're saying that's just you, but I think that's generally most people. I think you find these things, these vehicles for developing human potential. Whether it's martial arts or golf, or playing guitar, or playing chess, or poker.

• 2:06:49Speaker 02

  And then you have to have, I think, one, at least for me, one seminal relationship in your life. You have to have one person that has just undying belief in you. And I never really had that until I met my wife. And that was a very, and I didn't, I pushed against it so fucking hard because I was like, it just can't be true. Like, why does this person give a shit? Do you know what I mean? Like, why do they care about me more than I care?

• 2:07:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's also the fear because so many people get in those bad relationships.

• 2:07:16Speaker 02

  And I'm just like, I, I think there's a part of you, like me, where you're just like, I'm not a very lovable person. Like, I'm just like, this is, that's not who I am. And this woman is just there. So that's been like the thing, like for me, it's like, and because she's brutal. She'll be like, oh yeah, that was fucking horrible. You know, like yesterday, I like, we had this, I, I did this thing at, at Milk and it was a dinner at my friend's house. And then, you know, we're both going to different airports. I'm flying here to see you and she's flying home. And she calls me and I'm like, I'm, how did I do? Ah, shit.

• 2:07:56Speaker 02

  That's but, but no, there's the parts that I did well. And then she critiques the other parts that she didn't like. And then I say, which is like, it's, and it's so, again, I'm insecure. So I'm like, I want the self-serving. Well, how, because there was three of us on this panel and she's like, and I was like, you know, I was the best, right? She's like, no, Gavin was better. And I'm just like, it's so, but it's so refreshing because it keep, again, it's like a.

• 2:08:20Joe Rogan?

  Keeps you in check.

• 2:08:21Speaker 02

  Like, and it gives me a mirror.

• 2:08:22Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:08:23Speaker 02

  You know, like when I was coming to see you yesterday, when we were flying down to LA for this thing. There's parts of me where when I'm insecure, I kind of like externalize. And I can be like really hyperbolic, unnecessarily hyperbolic, and it's counterproductive. And she said to me, listen, like, just imagine your friends. These are hardworking people. They're trying their best as well. They don't necessarily know. Some things have massively worked out for them, but they would want to do the right thing. There's people you've worked with before that want to do the right thing. And she's like, just pick them and don't judge. You can observe. And it's crazy, but it's like, I need those little things. There's like tweaks. It's like having a coach, kind of like. And that's very, that's very helpful to me.

• 2:09:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's very important. It's hard to do that yourself.

• 2:09:09Speaker 02

  I can't do it.

• 2:09:10Joe Rogan?

  And it's also like.

• 2:09:10Speaker 02

  I'm retard maxing. Like, my life is like, I like that flow. And if I didn't have somebody who loved me and would hold me accountable, I'm just fucking not think about it.

• 2:09:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And the opposite of that is someone who's like an antagonistic relationship. And we know a lot of people that have those kind of very sabotage-y sort of marriages and relationships, and that's crazy.

• 2:09:32Speaker 02

  It's brutal.

• 2:09:33Joe Rogan?

  It's brutal. And I don't think they've ever had a really good one. Otherwise, they would never tolerate that.

• 2:09:38Speaker 02

  I didn't know what good looked like. So you kind of just, I think a lot of people go with the flow. Like, I mean, I was a nerdy kid from kind of a shitty fucked up, kind of like, family structure. And then I got injected into this rich high school. But then I gotta go back to an alcoholic father. I'm on fucking welfare. Like, it's like, you know, my, my self-confidence is negative fucking two units. Didn't have a girlfriend, you know, like, all the shit in high school. Like, nothing happened for me. And so my modeling of like, how to be in a relationship, what to do, it was fucking zero. It was zero. And so the, all those mistakes were mostly because I didn't understand what good looked like.

• 2:10:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:24Speaker 02

  And then I stumbled into this relationship after my divorce, and my ex-wife is an incredible woman, just like, not, you know.

• 2:10:30Joe Rogan?

  What you needed, or what she needed.

• 2:10:32Speaker 02

  We're just, we were in a few very specific ways. We just weren't on the same page. And then I find this other one, and it's. And I think like, I don't, I was so skeptical. I'm like, I kind of viewed like a relationship as like this adjunct to your life. There's you, you're at the center. You're doing your shit. And one of the appendages to your thing is your, that's what I thought. And then now it's the opposite where I feel like my wife's at the center and I'm like, I would always kind of like, like, almost like laugh at people. In the, in my mind, I'm like, it's not possible that somebody feels this way about somebody else.

• 2:11:15Speaker 02

  But it's a, it's a, it's a huge enabler. It's a, it's a very much a gift. So that can also be a thing that people look for. You know what I mean?

• 2:11:21Joe Rogan?

  But I think what you're saying is that there's a bunch of different things that have to sort of exist together. And that it's not just completely focus on your work, but that focusing on these other things enhances the work. And then the work enhances all these other things as well. And they all exist together.

• 2:11:40Speaker 02

  And my best work is when I'm not thinking about the attention or the money. Those are the two most corrupting influences in my life. If I, when I look back and when I've lost, when I've lost the most amount of money, or when I've reputationally hurt myself the most, it's all been because of attention and money. Those are the only two things. The root cause consistently has been that.

• 2:12:02Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense because you're thinking about a result rather than the process.

• 2:12:06Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:12:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:08Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:12:08Joe Rogan?

  And then thinking about that result like, ooh, I'm gonna get a lot of attention from this. Ooh, I'm gonna get a lot of money from this. That actually robs you of the focus that you need to concentrate on the process.

• 2:12:18Speaker 02

  Exactly. And the, the thing about the process is that so much of that, when you're in a flow state, you're proud of, irrespective of the size of it, because the meetings are the same. Do you know what I mean? Like, you're in the same fucking 35 minute meeting or 45 minute meeting, debating a product or debating a thing. But the minute that I start to feel like embarrassed about company A versus company B, or decision A versus decision B, now my mind is like, okay, hold on a second here. I'm about to run myself off the cliff.

• 2:12:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:50Speaker 02

  You know? Or, you know, we, I had this dinner last week. And this is what's amazing, like, We're talking about poker. Well, so I'm having dinner with my wife and a friend. And she's like, how are you doing? Just like a very generic, nice question.

• 2:13:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:07Speaker 02

  And I go into this long fucking diatribe of like, well, you know, the investing thing, this, and then I started this other thing, that. And my wife's looking at me like, what the fuck are you rambling on about? And then it got, but it got worse, Joe. It got worse. It got even fucking worse. Then I'm like, uh, you know, but then I had this poker game. I started rambling. It's normally on Thursdays, but then I moved it up to Wednesdays, but then I moved it up to the city because my friend's having it. And then I name dropped who the guy was. And my wife just looks at me like, what the fuck is going on with you? So the dinner ends, it was, and then she's like, what the fuck is going on with you? She's like, that was insane. And I had no idea that I was doing it. And I'm like, okay, we need to put Humpty Dumpty back together again because I'm about

• 2:13:52Speaker 02

  to go on Rogan and I can't go off fucking like crazy wild man. But it's a, it's a, it's an enormous gift. That's been my biggest unlock in these last like eight or nine years. Like I feel like I'm kind of like adding skills to my toolkit. I feel like a golfer, like that's like, I can shape shots a little bit now. I know how to use different clubs. And it's all like mindset. And it's like, it's very much what you, it's like this process oriented approach and you just can't control the outcome. And that's like, it's a magical feeling.

• 2:14:25Joe Rogan?

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• 2:15:09Joe Rogan?

  Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker.

• 2:15:52Joe Rogan?

  If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card, provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. It's interesting that you're saying this because like, think about what most people or people that are on social media, like the kind of attention that they're focusing on.

• 2:16:35Joe Rogan?

  Like, this is why virtue signaling is so unsuccessful, right? It's so bad for it because it's fake. You're really concentrating on the process. Or you're really concentrating on the result. The result is getting people to love you.

• 2:16:46Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:16:46Joe Rogan?

  Getting people to agree with you. Getting, and then worrying about the criticism. Oh my God, they hate me. Oh my God, they're mad at my statement. Oh my God, they're this. And then you're like obsessing on it all day. People that aren't even anywhere near you. It's like, it's one of the absolute worst things for mental health. Is this addiction that people have to posting things and then reading the responses to those posts and getting wrapped up in these very weird, two-dimensional interactions with human beings.

• 2:17:11Speaker 02

  You never read your comments. I mean, you're very famous. You're just like, it doesn't fucking matter to me.

• 2:17:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're gonna get to a certain point in time where if you have... X amount of people that follow you, you're gonna have a percentage that are mad at you. And those are the ones you're gonna think about.

• 2:17:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:17:27Joe Rogan?

  And if you don't self audit, maybe that's good. Maybe it's good to say like, you fucking piece of shit, like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, like what your wife saying to you, like, what the fuck was that? Like, oh shit. Like, I am very self critical. Very, like horribly so, like to the point I torture myself. You know, so I'm like, I don't need that from other people. And also, those people don't love me and they want me to fail. Like, there's a lot of people that their lives are very unsuccessful. And I've been way too fortunate, right? So it's like, there's a reason to be upset at me if your life is shit. Cause I've, I've gotten, I've three of the best jobs on earth. It doesn't make any sense, right? So there's a rea- and also, why the fuck is this podcast so successful? It doesn't make any sense, right? So it's like, I get it.

• 2:18:10Joe Rogan?

  I understand why people, but I'm not gonna help them. I'm not gonna help them bring me down. I'm not gonna indulge in it and ruin my own mind by wallowing in their bullshit. Cause the only reason why you would do that in the first place is if you're not together. No one who's healthy and happy and intelligent is going to post mean things about you. So you are reading things from people that are mentally ill, unhappy, and probably not. Maybe they're intelligent in terms of their ability to solve certain issues and problems. Maybe they're good at certain skills, but like, their overall grasp of humanity and like, being a good person is not good. If you're shitting on people, especially if you like ad hominem attacks and just insults and... So it's not a good thing to ingest.

• 2:18:54Joe Rogan?

  It's not, it's like, if you go down to the supermarket, you see Twinkies, oh, they're right there. Don't fucking eat them, okay? That's not good for you. And so it's like, I don't think that at a certain point in time, especially if you become publicly known and famous, you should ever read your comments. I don't think it's good for you.

• 2:19:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:10Joe Rogan?

  But you better be self auditing, or you'll start sniffing your own farts and think they smell great. Like, don't do that either.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:18Joe Rogan?

  But you, I know a lot of people that have gone crazy reading their own comments. I've met comedians that like, they'll think about it all day long. It will fuck with them. It will tor-

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  Well, their neuroses are what's, what creates great comedy to begin with. So if you feed that neuroses in the wrong way, you're fucked.

• 2:19:35Joe Rogan?

  The wrong way, right. And then also the self doubt creeps in. Because all these people telling you suck, and then you're like, oh my god, I suck. And then you go on stage with this, like, people think I suck, they hate me. You can't do that. Like, if you- Have a certain amount of energy in the day. This is what I always tell comedians. I said, like, think of your attention and your focus as a unit. You have a hundred units. If you spend thirty of those fucking units on assholes online, you're robbing thirty units from all the things you love. Thirty units from your family, thirty units from your friends, thirty units from your job, thirty units from golf or poker, or whatever it is that you love to do. You're stealing your own time and your own focus for losers.

• 2:20:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20:20Joe Rogan?

  Like, why would you do that? And those losers are good people. They're just, they, most people are good people. They're just, they're in a bad path. I would have been the same person.

• 2:20:28Speaker 02

  Or they're venting, yeah.

• 2:20:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so they're venting. Look, if you gave me a fucking Twitter account when I was sixteen, oh my god, it would have been horrendous.

• 2:20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would have been going crazy.

• 2:20:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, I would have been a terrible person. It's normal, especially if your life sucks and you're not doing well and you're attacking famous people or you're attacking this person that's doing better than you or whatever it is. Like, it's...

• 2:20:47Speaker 02

  Do you, have you seen the clips of the retard maxing? Elijah Long?

• 2:20:50Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:20:51Speaker 02

  You don't know what this is?

• 2:20:51Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:20:52Speaker 02

  You don't know what this is?

• 2:20:53Joe Rogan?

  No, what's retard maxing?

• 2:20:54Speaker 02

  Oh, this guy is fantastic. He sits, he sits on his back porch, Jamie, can you just show? He sits, he sits on his back porch, smoking a cigar, basically telling you, everything's kind of bullshit. Stop thinking about shit. You know, if you don't like your friends, leave them. If you don't like your girlfriend, leave them. Stop overthinking, simplify your life. You know, it's, it's incre- it's so simple, but I think it's incredibly powerful.

• 2:21:21Joe Rogan?

  Who is this guy?

• 2:21:22Speaker 02

  Elijah Long, I think is his name. I don't know, Jamie, if you can find it. I think Elijah...

• 2:21:27Joe Rogan?

  Retard maxing is funny, because I know about looks maxing. We talked about that recently on a podcast. But that's recently entered into my mind, into my zeitgeist.

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  Looks maxing.

• 2:21:36Joe Rogan?

  That's the clavicular thing. But I've only found out about that within the last few months of life. Because I genuinely stay off social media as much as possible. And if I do read things, what I like to do, I like to focus on fascinating things. Like, a lot of my time I spend looking at YouTube stuff. Because YouTube stuff, my algorithm is all like, new black holes they've discovered, you know, new discoveries in terms of like, what is the fabric of reality? Like, I'm, that's interesting to me. And if I just concentrate on people being mean or shitty to each other, or the latest fucking political drama, it's like... I don't have much time. I'm busy. I like things.

• 2:22:17Speaker 02

  Are you on like Instagram and TikTok?

• 2:22:20Joe Rogan?

  I'm on Instagram. I do not have a TikTok. This is looks maxing. I know, but this is retard maxing. So let me hear what he says. Who's this guy? What's his name?

• 2:22:29Speaker 02

  Elijah Long.

• 2:22:30Joe Rogan?

  Shout out to Elijah.

• 2:22:31Speaker 04

  Being used as a poisoning of nostalgia, but to simply remind you of what you found it for. And as we grow, we often give that up for security. We give that up so that we're accepted. We give that up to flex and appear like we have now figured things out. That people will accept us.

• 2:22:54Speaker 04

  The only way that you will truly be successful is if you are righteous and you live according to your nature. And you play, man, and you don't let people take play away from you. To be at the circus and be ood and aww. And worried about all the bullshit. Return to a state of play.

• 2:23:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's very good advice. Return to retard max. The best thing that you could do is return to a state of play. That's true. There's a lot of that, you know? There's a lot of that. Absolutely.

• 2:23:25Speaker 02

  Oh, I think that that is like a, it's a.

• 2:23:28Joe Rogan?

  It's a wise man for a young fella.

• 2:23:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay. He's a jujitsu guy. There you go. Look, he's getting his fucking blue belt there, or he's getting his purple belt. What is going on there? So is he getting his blue belt? Yeah, it's his purple. Purple. Yeah, so they're taking his blue belt off and putting his purple belt on. Yeah, see, that's, he's learning, he's a martial artist. That's why.

• 2:23:47Speaker 02

  You think martial arts people are just more like spiritually connected to the truth?

• 2:23:51Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if it's spiritually connected to the truth. It's forced down your fucking throat because you can't believe you're better than you are if you're getting mauled every day.

• 2:24:01Joe Rogan?

  You know? And there's only one way. This guy's on the path to becoming a jujitsu black belt. He looks like a pretty big guy, too. That'll help. But there's only one way to get a black belt in jujitsu. You gotta train jujitsu all the time and get better at jujitsu. You can't pretend you're better. You know, there's a lot of people that write poems and they suck and they think they're so deep.

• 2:24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:20Joe Rogan?

  But those poems suck.

• 2:24:20Speaker 02

  Meaning like there's just a very simple objective measurement.

• 2:24:23Joe Rogan?

  100%. You either win or you lose. Either tap or you get tapped out.

• 2:24:30Joe Rogan?

  You tap somebody? Or you get tapped out?

• 2:24:32Speaker 02

  But can you get a black belt in some gym that's easier than a different gym? Or something like that?

• 2:24:36Joe Rogan?

  Uh, sort of, kind of, but not really. I mean, everybody's trying hard. I mean, there's definitely better gyms where they're more technical and their program is much more systematic. And they're better at breaking down skills, like how to develop skills. You know, um, there's definitely better gyms. Uh, there's better schools, there's better places to learn. But everywhere you learn, you're gonna have a bunch of people that are trying hard. Like, and you have a bunch of people that are trying to learn these. And also today, because of the internet, you could go on YouTube and there's thousands of tutorials, breaking down new moves. Jiu-Jitsu is like endlessly complex.

• 2:25:15Speaker 02

  Well, one of my kids has ADHD. And one of the things that was recommended to us was jiu-jitsu.

• 2:25:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what is ADHD, man? It's not even fucking real, cuz I definitely have it. And I think it's a superpower.

• 2:25:25Speaker 02

  I think we all have it.

• 2:25:26Joe Rogan?

  I think, I, look, I do not focus well on things that I think are boring. But if you give me something that I love, I can't, I'll, I'll play pool for fucking 12 hours in a row.

• 2:25:35Speaker 02

  Well, it's crazy, but like, the reason I got back into golf is my seven-year-old gets on the course and sometimes you can talk to him and he's not making, you know, he's just like in his own world.

• 2:25:43Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:25:44Speaker 02

  And then you start talking about chess or jiu-jitsu or whatever. And then we get him on the golf course and this kid is just dialed in.

• 2:25:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, superpower.

• 2:25:52Speaker 02

  And I'm like, holy shit.

• 2:25:54Joe Rogan?

  And they say that that's a disease. That's crazy.

• 2:25:56Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 2:25:57Joe Rogan?

  Because if you find a thing that that kid loves, he's gonna excel at it above and beyond most humans.

• 2:26:02Speaker 02

  We, uh, he does these chess classes. And like, look, he's seven. So I'm like, alright, motherfucker, bring it. Fucking, fucking destroy you, I'm gonna fucking maul you. And, uh, we're playing last weekend and he goes, oh, dad, you know, you can't castle out of check. I'm like, shut the fuck up, I know how this game works. And I go on to beat him and I, and I went to my wife and I'm like, He's six weeks away from beating me.

• 2:26:29Speaker 02

  And then I spent, I spent two days, I spent two fucking days on YouTube. And I was like, okay, I gotta brush up on my openings and I gotta, I got, oh my god. I don't have time for this shit.

• 2:26:39Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 2:26:40Speaker 02

  But I can't let this seven-year-old beat me. You know what I mean?

• 2:26:44Joe Rogan?

  You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to.

• 2:26:45Speaker 02

  And I was like, how do I, how do I stall this until maybe he's 10 or 11? Then it's like, okay, fine, you finally beat me, congratulations.

• 2:26:51Joe Rogan?

  You have to think of him as an extension of you and be happy when he does.

• 2:26:55Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 2:26:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's just how it is. Look, if you're a man and you have a son, I have all daughters, but if I had a son, I would be legitimately terrified that he'd be able to tap me. Uh, because if I had a son, one of the first things that I would do is get them, I got my kids involved in martial arts at an early age. But I didn't force them to keep doing it. They did it for a certain amount of time and then they went on to do a bunch of other things that they enjoy better.

• 2:27:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:18Joe Rogan?

  Which is fine. But I think it's good to learn some skills, learn how to defend yourself so you're not completely lost. Just, it's, I think it's good for you. It's good to learn. It's good to develop confidence. But for boys, I think it's critical. You know, especially boys with my kinda DNA. I'm like, I think it's good to get that shit out of your system. But if I had a son, there'd be a certain point in time, I'm like, it's a matter of time before this motherfucker can kill me.

• 2:27:42Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I'm 58 years old. If I had a 20-year-old kid, like, he could probably kill me.

• 2:27:46Speaker 02

  Kick your ass.

• 2:27:46Joe Rogan?

  Probably fucking kill me.

• 2:27:47Speaker 02

  He'd kick your ass.

• 2:27:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's like, what am I gonna do? There's nothing you could do. You just have to accept it and then hope your relationship with him is strong enough that he still respects you, even though he can kill you. Because it can't be entirely bait. Look, there's a lot of martial arts instructors that are old and they're revered and respected and nobody wants to try to hurt them.

• 2:28:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:06Joe Rogan?

  Right? Because you realize, if you learn enough, you get to a certain point in time, you realize like-

• 2:28:11Speaker 02

  I'm a butch better dad to my sons than I am my daughters. And I mean this in the following way. My daughters have the run of the place, whatever they want. I'm in love with them. I don't love them, I'm in love with them. Whatever they need, whatever-

• 2:28:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:22Speaker 02

  They can just-

• 2:28:23Joe Rogan?

  Just enamored by-

• 2:28:24Speaker 02

  They're just like, they can control me, they just kinda send me in one direction or another. I'm just like, they're, I'm, I'm like-

• 2:28:29Joe Rogan?

  By the way, they know that too.

• 2:28:30Speaker 02

  I'm enslaved by them.

• 2:28:31Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:28:31Speaker 02

  You know, and I just want their attention. Any small little shred, I'm like, huh huh huh.

• 2:28:36Joe Rogan?

  Boo your son, you keep him in check.

• 2:28:37Speaker 02

  Whereas like my sons, I keep the, I'm doing everything that I was supposed, I think I'm supposed to be doing. Now, the good news is my, you know, daughters are just different. They're girls. They're just, so they don't need the same kind of like tough love-ish.

• 2:28:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:50Speaker 02

  You know, but then my boys reveal their characteristics in ways that really surprise me and I'm just like, man, this is so fucking awesome. Parenting has been the best, like when I, again, like slowing down and actually being in it.

• 2:29:02Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:29:02Speaker 02

  And I'm like, fuck, this is amazing.

• 2:29:04Joe Rogan?

  It is pretty amazing and watching your kids get really good at things is really fascinating. It's fascinating.

• 2:29:09Speaker 02

  I told you this story before, but like, you know, my son, my oldest son, this is my 17-year-old. It's just a great kid. He goes and he's like, okay, I'm applying for college and I'm like, great, let me take you to the Naval Academy, West Point. Let me show you these service academies. And he sees those and he's like, these are incredible. But then he's like, I think I want to go to like, you know, Georgetown or Vanderbilt or whatever. And I'm like, hey, man, that's like a, just a bigger version of your high school. And whatever, if that's what you want to do, you do you and you know, but you know, my, the, I'll help you like kind of get to the starting line here, but you're on your own.

• 2:29:49Speaker 02

  And he had to get a job because I'm like, if you're going to get into these schools, you got to get a job. And so he tries to, last summer, I just started fucking screaming at him and I'm like, you fucking louse, you haven't done anything. This is at like another kid's at our, at our son's birthday party. I scream at him, he starts crying. I'm like, you need to do more. Then my wife screams at him, he starts crying again. Then my ex-wife screams at him, he starts crying again. And he just goes, I'm out of here. He walks out. Meanwhile, I start panicking and I'm like, I got to tiger dad this situation. So I start texting a few friends, trying to figure out, hey, can I, you know, do you guys want to hire this kid? He's like, really, you know, he's a pretty smart kid, did all this stuff in robotics, yada, yada.

• 2:30:33Speaker 02

  One of them says, I'd be willing to interview him. I call him and he's like, Dad, I got a job. I said, What do you mean you got a job? He said, I went around downtown, went to all these places and I was in a McDonald's. And the woman was having a little bit of difficulty speaking English. So I just booked her in Spanish and I got the application. I sat down at the desk and the guy having lunch beside me said, Hey, I heard you needed a job. And I really liked the way you talked to this woman. I'm the general manager of the car wash down the street. Come and work for me. And I said, Well, what are you gonna do? He goes, I'm gonna go work there. And I said, Okay, well, I got this other interview for you as well. So you should see, maybe you can do both. Anyways, the end of the story is he did, he did these two jobs.

• 2:31:18Speaker 02

  He worked at a robotics firm, but then he worked at a car wash. And when I tell you this story, I am so proud of this kid because of the car wash. Because that car wash thing, he was, he would come home and he's like, Man, you have no idea how people live. And I'm like, What do you mean? He's like, The stuff that I find in the trunk when I have to vacuum these cars and clean out the cars. And I'm like, Bro, that is a gift. You have given a fucking gift. That is the thing that if you take with you, you'll be golden the rest of your life. Because all this other shit is all kind of manufactured. I help because I'm anxious, I'm insecure. But that shit you did on your own. And that thing is what people will fucking respect when push comes to shove.

• 2:31:54Joe Rogan?

  It's also, jobs that suck are really good for you.

• 2:31:57Speaker 02

  So good. I used to work at Burger King when I was 14. Man, let me tell you-

• 2:32:02Joe Rogan?

  You were 14 and you had a job?

• 2:32:05Speaker 02

  When my dad had to stay behind, like, we were, my dad was a diplomat in the embassy of Sri Lanka in Canada. This fucking war in Sri Lanka is crazy. He writes this essay, his life is threatened. So he files for refugee status. He gets it. He gets kicked out of the embassy. So he doesn't have a job. My mom becomes a housekeeper. And we're kind of toiling in this poverty cycle. So 14, you have to, I had to get a job. And I would take the money and, you know, we buy, I buy the bus passes. I would buy some of the groceries. We just trying to make it all work, right? And I got a job at the Burger King. This is another example where I was like, I'm gonna go get a job.

• 2:32:48Speaker 02

  Hey, can you drive me to the interview? And my dad's like, No. Get on your fucking bicycle and go. And I thought, bro, we need this, but you need the money more than I do. Why are you making me bicycle? But I bicycled. And I got the job and I worked there and I used to work the night shift. 14 year old kid, man.

• 2:33:08Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:33:08Speaker 02

  From fucking eight till two in the morning.

• 2:33:10Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:33:11Speaker 02

  And I would have to clean this, like 8pm to 2 in the morning.

• 2:33:13Joe Rogan?

  And then you had to go to school in the morning?

• 2:33:14Speaker 02

  No, then I, this was always like Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

• 2:33:17Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:33:18Speaker 02

  Thursday, Friday, sorry, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And then, yeah, some days I would have to go to school, but. And why did I work until two? Because when the restaurant closes, you get whatever the food is left over, right? So like you get a couple of chicken sandwiches, you get like the, you know, the, the version of the McNuggets that Burger King had, a couple Whoppers, and you take them home.

• 2:33:40Speaker 02

  But the amount of vomit that I had to clean up.

• 2:33:45Speaker 02

  You can't imagine, man, the downtown Burger King near bars, you know, after closing time. The shit you see.

• 2:33:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:33:55Speaker 02

  And the shit you deal with. And all I could think of was like, I just want to get the fuck out of here. But that was so valuable for me.

• 2:34:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:03Speaker 02

  It was so valuable for me. And then I worry that my, you know, kids don't get exposed to it. But when my son got it, maybe I'm overimposing too much about it, but it's like, I'm like, man, that, that car wash thing is really going to be the thing that separates you in life.

• 2:34:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, doing something that sucks, it, it also.

• 2:34:22Speaker 02

  Just being humble and grinding through that shit, you know?

• 2:34:24Joe Rogan?

  You realize like, this is sometimes people, they don't pick a path and they just have a job and they don't like it and they stay with this thing they don't like forever. And that's not what you want. It's not what you want, but the development, like the, learning how to do something that sucks and grinding through it.

• 2:34:44Speaker 02

  And still doing it well.

• 2:34:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:45Speaker 02

  You know, like.

• 2:34:46Joe Rogan?

  Doing it well.

• 2:34:46Speaker 02

  Make a, make a Whopper.

• 2:34:47Joe Rogan?

  Be there on top.

• 2:34:48Speaker 02

  I know how to fucking make a Whopper.

• 2:34:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:50Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean?

• 2:34:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:51Speaker 02

  Make the fries, change the oil, all that shit.

• 2:34:54Joe Rogan?

  And then when you apply that, those lessons to something you actually love, and you work hard at something you love.

• 2:35:01Speaker 02

  Magical.

• 2:35:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's incredible. It's a real gift.

• 2:35:04Speaker 02

  It's a real gift.

• 2:35:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, you know, some people, they don't appreciate the process, you know, and it's hard to, because like, when you're young and you're going through these difficult jobs and these things that suck, and you don't know how it's gonna turn out, you know, and a lot of times, people aren't really educated in what a process actually is, and about how it does develop character, it does develop discipline, and that these things are actual skills that you can apply to other things in life. You just think, God, I'm a fucking loser.

• 2:35:34Speaker 02

  I have a, I have a visual for this. I always ask myself, am I in the engine room right now? This is my way of saying, like, an engine room is a little hot, it's a little uncomfortable, but it's where all the shit is happening. It's where the shit is being made. And so I'm like, it's a little, you know, discomforting, but I gotta be in there. And there are days where, there'll be weeks where that's all I do, I'm just in it. You know, I don't, I'm not good at responding to emails sometimes, or whatever, because there'll just be weeks where I'm in it. And it's an incredible visual for me, because I'm like, yeah, this is like where I'm grounded. And I like feel myself. And then when I, when I look at my, like, my health,

• 2:36:16Speaker 02

  that's when I just feel like really good about myself. Like, not insecure, and my vitals are different. Like, it's crazy, like, my fucking HRV. Like, my HRV craters when I'm like, just like, you know, insecure.

• 2:36:34Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:36:36Speaker 02

  But why is that? Like, it's your, it's your heart rate variability. It should have nothing to do with your, like, disposition and your mood.

• 2:36:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, your mind is, the idea that your mind is separate from the body is crazy.

• 2:36:48Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 2:36:49Joe Rogan?

  It's not, and...

• 2:36:51Speaker 02

  But is your HRV lower when you're just out of sorts? Yes, probably, right?

• 2:36:55Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure, yeah. I don't really monitor it that much.

• 2:36:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:58Joe Rogan?

  And I'm, I try not to ever get out of sorts, too. And one of the ways that I keep from getting out of sorts is daily discipline. Like, it's, if I, if I have days where I'm sure it gets out of sorts, if I have a few days in a row where I don't work out. But I, I work out almost every day, and if I'm not working out, I'm still cold plunging and going to the sauna and stretching. I'm always doing something. And if I don't do something, I feel like I'm fucking up. And then, then I can.

• 2:37:23Speaker 02

  So does it matter what it is, meaning as long as it's a routine?

• 2:37:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, I, I do it all myself. I don't have a trainer. But I write things down. I write down what I want to accomplish. I write down what I'm gonna do. And then I just do it. I'm like a robot, force myself to do it.

• 2:37:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:38Joe Rogan?

  And I always feel better after it's over.

• 2:37:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:40Joe Rogan?

  And it's always the hardest part of my day.

• 2:37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:42Joe Rogan?

  And so it makes everything else so much easier, because it's, I, I fucking work out hard.

• 2:37:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:47Joe Rogan?

  And so everything else is pretty easy. You know, because the strain, like, just being in that fucking cold water, or just going through tobadas on a Airdyne bike. This shit's hard. It's really hard. Like, I could die right now hard.

• 2:38:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:00Joe Rogan?

  And so everything else is like, wow, how, how hard's it gonna be? Oh, it's uncomfortable? Oh, boo hoo. You know, like, I think it's important to go through that. I, I really think it is, you know? I really think it is. And that, that's it. The difference between, you know, sanity and like, having a very slippery grip on your, your own personal sovereignty. I think a lot of it is like, you have to choose, it, it has to be like elective voluntary adversity. Like, you have to choose to do it.

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, that's a really great way of saying it. Voluntary adversity. If it's forced upon you, you can kind of, kind of compartmentalize it.

• 2:38:40Joe Rogan?

  And then you get angry, like, fuck, what's fucking people making me do stupid shit?

• 2:38:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:38:44Joe Rogan?

  But if you force yourself to do it, you know?

• 2:38:46Speaker 02

  That's why these special forces guys are such fucking animals.

• 2:38:49Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:38:49Speaker 02

  They're choosing.

• 2:38:50Joe Rogan?

  Right. Exactly. And they develop that, you know, this mentality when you're around other people that are also savages.

• 2:38:58Joe Rogan?

  You know, you just, you realize like, there's other people out there in the world that are not making excuses. And they are getting after it every day, and they are pushing every day. And the more you can surround yourself with people like that, the more people, the people that complain about nonsense and the find excuses and focus on other people and bitch about things and why is she doing this? Why is this happening for him? Uh, uh, uh.

• 2:39:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:23Joe Rogan?

  It's loser mentality. And if you're around more winners, you know, you absorb that. You imitate your atmosphere.

• 2:39:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:29Joe Rogan?

  It's very important. It's very hard for people, especially young people, to find positive influences and to find positive groups. And I think it's one of the reasons why a lot of young people gravitate towards podcasts, because they get to hear interesting conversations with really accomplished people that are fascinating, that are unlike anybody that they're around on a daily basis. You know, and that's also one of the reasons why it's important to find, that's why martial arts are so good for young people. Because you're around other people that are doing this really difficult thing. And other sports too, whether it's football or wrestling, whatever it is.

• 2:40:03Speaker 02

  I actually found like, you know, the last few years, I go out of my way to not isolate myself. That's one thing, like being around other people engaging in things.

• 2:40:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:40:11Speaker 02

  Has been really healthy for me.

• 2:40:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:40:13Speaker 02

  Oh, my god. And I just found like, what the fuck am I doing? It's like, everything is in my little house by myself. Everybody, everything comes to me. It's so odd.

• 2:40:20Joe Rogan?

  It's odd.

• 2:40:21Speaker 02

  It's really odd.

• 2:40:22Joe Rogan?

  Very unhealthy.

• 2:40:22Speaker 02

  And it starts to fuck you up in the mind.

• 2:40:24Joe Rogan?

  And then your interaction with humans is only on the internet. Ugh, it's terrible.

• 2:40:28Speaker 02

  Or with people that are sycophantically either being paid or need something from you.

• 2:40:32Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 2:40:33Speaker 02

  And then I think you're in a really bad place.

• 2:40:35Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely.

• 2:40:36Speaker 02

  Whereas like, if you're in the grind with other people, they're beating you at things, it's great.

• 2:40:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, if you're in a situation where there's a bunch of sycophantically connected people to you and they're just all kissing your ass and I mean, we all know people that are like the heads of companies and that are just like fucking tyrants.

• 2:40:50Speaker 02

  I think the, the, the, the trap about being successful, because it's not everything it's cracked up to be, is exactly that. You become so isolated that you become this like very caricatureous version of yourself.

• 2:41:01Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:41:01Speaker 02

  Because you forget what it's like to. Just a basic example, like wait in line, be kind to other people, be polite, like be accommodating, have some empathy.

• 2:41:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:41:11Speaker 02

  Where are you put in that situation to do those things?

• 2:41:13Joe Rogan?

  Right. You forget that you're just a person.

• 2:41:15Speaker 02

  You're just a fucking person.

• 2:41:16Joe Rogan?

  And if you achieve some level of success that you're trying to, you're trying to achieve this level of success, so you elevate past being a person, you're missing the point. Like, you're never going to. And if you do, it'll come at a price.

• 2:41:29Speaker 02

  I thought being successful was supposed to right all the wrongs that I felt like I missed. And it turns out, nobody gives a fuck.

• 2:41:38Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:41:39Speaker 02

  And it does none of that.

• 2:41:41Joe Rogan?

  I think it's all the process. The all of life is the process.

• 2:41:46Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 2:41:47Joe Rogan?

  I think as soon as you think that there's a goal, like, oh, I'm gonna retire and experience my golden years, I think it's all horseshit. And that's one of my main fears about AI. My main, one of my main fears about this idea of universal high income and everyone's gonna have, you know, ultimate abundance, it's like, where does anybody find purpose and meaning? And where do the, where do you take whatever this thing is that the mind is constructed of, these, these needs that the mind has that have to be satisfied in order to achieve sanity? In order to achieve some sort of like, place where you can be at peace?

• 2:42:27Speaker 02

  Accomplishment, fulfillment.

• 2:42:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You're gonna have to do something, man. You're gonna have to do something. And maybe it could just be jujitsu and golf and find some stuff that you enjoy doing and take some benefit in that, but, boy, that's not been the case for hundreds of years, you know? That's not how human beings have existed. I mean, but also part of me says, why do we have to work to find those things? Why can't we, why, why is it all? That.

• 2:42:59Speaker 02

  Well, you gotta find the thing that's not work.

• 2:43:01Joe Rogan?

  Right, but what I'm getting at is like, why is our identity all tied up in money? And, and, and, and just things and objects and stuff? And this is a fairly new thing in human society, right? Why can't it transform into mu- like, your basic needs are all met? Like, nobody ever has to worry about starving again. Nobody ever has to worry about not having a home to sleep in. Nobody ever has to worry about not having healthcare. Nobody ever has to worry about not having education. So then it becomes, find a purpose with your life. And as a society, can we adjust?

• 2:43:42Joe Rogan?

  Can we gravitate towards a new way of existing and meaning? It would probably be great. In one way, it'd be great because we wouldn't have to be constantly thinking, why does he have that? And I don't have that, and this and that. Instead, it would probably be like, what can I do to get better at the thing that I love?

• 2:44:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:44:01Joe Rogan?

  What, you know, and.

• 2:44:02Speaker 02

  Or let me be a part of a project to do something that seems implausible. But I feel like I'm in the engine room every day. This is great, I'm toiling with these guys.

• 2:44:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes.

• 2:44:11Speaker 02

  It's probably not gonna work. Some crazy, convoluted thing that has a point zero zero one chance of success. That can captivate a lot of people.

• 2:44:20Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:44:21Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:44:21Joe Rogan?

  The process.

• 2:44:22Speaker 02

  The process.

• 2:44:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:23Speaker 02

  The process.

• 2:44:24Joe Rogan?

  The process is everything, and there's no, I used to like, think back when.

• 2:44:27Speaker 02

  There is no attention in the process.

• 2:44:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:44:30Speaker 02

  There's only attention in the outcome.

• 2:44:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:44:33Speaker 02

  Do you see what I mean?

• 2:44:34Joe Rogan?

  Right, absolutely.

• 2:44:34Speaker 02

  Which is another clue and a secret that that's actually where you should be focused.

• 2:44:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, you might get attention, but that's not what you want. What you want is the process to work out. You want, you wanna get better at whatever it is you're doing, and get that thing to a better place than it is right now currently. Right? That's what you're thinking of. You're not thinking of, I am gonna get all this attention. I'm gonna be on the cover of a magazine. Yeah, can't, it can't be that. That's not good for anybody. But everybody thinks that's what they're gonna get. Oh, I'm gonna get this.

• 2:45:02Speaker 02

  Everybody thinks that's what they want.

• 2:45:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, right.

• 2:45:06Speaker 02

  And the problem with that is that it's not what you want.

• 2:45:08Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:45:09Speaker 02

  And then now, we're gonna completely upend, potentially, all of that.

• 2:45:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, maybe it'll coincide with the hive mind technology.

• 2:45:23Speaker 02

  This hive mind thing, actually, that you say, I find very compelling. Because this idea of like, how do you govern an AI? Each of us individually are not capable, but I think you, me, like 10,000, 100,000 people working together. The question is, are we smarter? And I think there's a reasonable chance that that could be true. And then the other version of the hive mind is, here are all these like crazy ideas that would just make the world incredible. And a group of 1,000 people go off and they kind of jointly work on that together. That I find super fascinating, like that could be it, like it could be like, you know, 1,000 physicists are like, we're going to create this new interstellar form of transportation.

• 2:46:06Speaker 02

  And they just go off and they're just like, they don't have to worry about existing because all of that's paid for.

• 2:46:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, it also could solve all of our problems that we have with like haves and have nots. If we're all one, how could we tolerate have nots? How could we tolerate people living on dirt floors in third world countries with no access to clean water? We wouldn't tolerate it because they would be us and we would understand that.

• 2:46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:46:31Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it could be like a complete game changer in terms of human civilization. It could really move people into a complete next direction. I mean, it could eliminate crime and violence.

• 2:46:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:46:42Joe Rogan?

  Which sounds insane, like, boy, this is so utopian, like, oh, why don't you suck on some crystals, you fucking hippie? But legitimately, if, look, if everybody has a cellphone, which essentially everybody does, right? Right now, in this time and age? If we get to a point where everybody is connected, everybody is hive mind connected. You're, there's, we're all, you're not going to just be able to drive by a homeless encampment. You won't, you'll feel.

• 2:47:08Speaker 02

  You'll feel it.

• 2:47:08Joe Rogan?

  You'll feel it. It won't be like, hey, you fucking losers, hit the gas. It's gonna be like, we need to solve this. We need to get these people counseling mental health crisis, get them off the drugs, whatever it is that's wrong with them.

• 2:47:23Speaker 02

  I mean, that's an incredible idea.

• 2:47:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:25Speaker 02

  You know, like when an airplane kind of like goes like this and your stomach goes and you just feel it? Could you imagine like you drive by a homeless encampment and that's what you feel like you feel like something's wrong?

• 2:47:35Joe Rogan?

  And we'll all feel it collectively. If we're all connected and we all feel things connectively, we will actively work together to solve these problems. And if we're dealing with, if we really get to a point of abundance, like true abundance, where resources are not an issue and no one's starving, we could really fix all the problems that like, none of them are insurmountable. None of them are breathing underwater, right? None of them are flying to the sun, none of them, right? So all of them are things that could be, if we took all the world's resources, socialism doesn't work, right? Why does it not work? Because it rewards lazy people and it punishes ambitious people. It's not, doesn't, doesn't work with human nature, but it would work if you have fucking hive mind.

• 2:48:19Joe Rogan?

  If we all, if we all understand what it means to put in effort. We all understood what, what each other are feeling and thinking.

• 2:48:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:48:27Joe Rogan?

  And we all compiled resources and fixed all of our social problems. Like literally, stop all wars, stop all crimes, stop all violence, stop all poverty. Done. And then what do we do? We work together to solve whatever the fuck else is wrong with your society.

• 2:48:45Speaker 02

  Well, it's more like what is left over that we haven't figured out.

• 2:48:48Joe Rogan?

  Think about what the world was like before the internet. It's almost impossible to imagine, but we both grew up without it.

• 2:48:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And so we're entering into this new world. Think about what world was like without the hive mind. But yet we all grew up without it. Like that might be the next thing.

• 2:49:06Speaker 02

  The thing that I remember the most about that era is I had a positive sum view of everybody.

• 2:49:14Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:49:15Speaker 02

  Meaning there weren't like the, the bad actors were pretty bad. But yeah, generally like I looked up to most business people, like the people that I now I feel like have been a little bit unmasked. Then to me were pristine.

• 2:49:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  Like the Bill Gates's of the world. You know, I was like, man, I really aspire to be Bill Gates when I was like 13 or 14. It just seemed like-

• 2:49:36Joe Rogan?

  Now you're like, why is he buying all the farmland, this fucking weirdo?

• 2:49:40Speaker 02

  He's fucking so funny. He uh, he bought this like forty-five thousand acres and forty-five hundred acres, I can't get the order of magnitude right, uh, in Phoenix to build his own digital city.

• 2:49:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:52Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:49:53Speaker 02

  It's like weird, so I bought the seventeen hundred acres beside him.

• 2:49:59Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 2:49:59Speaker 02

  Fuck you, Bill Gates.

• 2:50:00Joe Rogan?

  It's a very odd thing. It's a very odd thing when people get exposed and you just go like, what the fuck is that guy really all about? And but also like, how isolated is he?

• 2:50:12Speaker 02

  He's been, he's been isolated for fifty years.

• 2:50:14Joe Rogan?

  Right. Like, who are his friends? And how, how many people does he have?

• 2:50:17Speaker 02

  Must be very hard to be him, actually. I mean.

• 2:50:20Joe Rogan?

  Especially now that he's divorced, right? So now he's got no one going, but that speech fucking sucks.

• 2:50:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's got, I mean, he has a long-term partner. She seems like a lovely woman. But yeah, it's just gotta be super lonely.

• 2:50:33Joe Rogan?

  It's gotta be.

• 2:50:34Speaker 02

  It's not, I, to me, it's not worth that level of, I don't even know, what is it? It's like material success at least measured in the outside world? I don't know what it is, but it's not.

• 2:50:45Speaker 02

  It's a lot, man. This is like, I, like, I don't know how Elon does it. Like, it's a lot. It's super isolating.

• 2:50:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:50Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's just, he's very by himself.

• 2:50:55Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:50:56Speaker 02

  And he's gonna be even more isolated in a matter of a few months.

• 2:50:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:59Speaker 02

  And that's unfortunate because you have very empathetic, very kind of like sensitive people like that, I think, need other people.

• 2:51:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's got people around him, but he's got very few people around him that can kick reality at him. You know? That, that is a bit of a problem. But he still seems to be having fun. Every time I'm around him, we have a bunch of laughs. Like, he's fun to hang out with.

• 2:51:22Speaker 02

  He's got an incredible sense of humor.

• 2:51:24Joe Rogan?

  We, um, Jamie and I went down, uh, to one of the rocket launches at SpaceX. Yeah, we went down there.

• 2:51:30Speaker 02

  It's fucking crazy.

• 2:51:31Joe Rogan?

  And we watched from the ground while it took off, which is incredible, because it's like, how far was it, Jamie? It was like two miles away from us? A mile, mile and a half. So it's a mile and a half. You feel it in your chest. Have you been? When a, when a rocket launches, have you been there? Dude, it's bananas. The fucking thing, like, first of all, it doesn't look that far. It looks like it's like, maybe quarter mile? I'm, I'm just not good at judging.

• 2:51:53Speaker 02

  This is a starship?

• 2:51:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. So you feel it.

• 2:51:59Joe Rogan?

  Like his kids started crying like we wanna go inside like it's disturbing like the amount of energy that's coming out of these fucking rocket boosters and then I hung out with him in the command center while the rocket was flying through space and we're watching it on all these monitors and then lands in the water in Australia and he's cracking jokes the whole time because the thing is like losing pressure cuz it's they're stress testing all the stuff which is really funny when really dumb people oh he's a fucking dumbass his rockets keep blowing up like like they just don't understand like the only way you find out what the capability of this technology is is you have to like let it blow up and then you go okay it needs to be thicker it needs to be this and that and we need to add these things and there's sensors everywhere and so he's cracking jokes the entire time

• 2:52:44Joe Rogan?

  while this thing is like losing pressure and it eventually wound up landing and it was fine but it did have a hole in it but it was just like he's laughing like he's having a good old time he's not freaked out you know he he's uniquely built to handle it.

• 2:52:58Speaker 02

  I uh when there was a rocket launch in Vreidenberg in California and I chartered a Pilatus and I cuz you can get low like a little like propeller plane.

• 2:53:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:53:09Speaker 02

  And I went around and around and I have this video of it kind of like coming up and through cuz like.

• 2:53:14Joe Rogan?

  How close were you?

• 2:53:19Speaker 02

  Hundred miles.

• 2:53:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:53:21Speaker 02

  But you but it's like right there.

• 2:53:22Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:53:23Speaker 02

  You know cuz the distance and it's coming up and I'm kind of going around it was the craziest thing it was cool it was super cool. That shit is super cool.

• 2:53:31Joe Rogan?

  It's very cool it's very cool I mean just Starbase is bananas just when you go down there and they have their own town the whole thing is straight there's fucking cyber trucks everywhere I'm like how do you find your car like.

• 2:53:42Speaker 02

  Is it is it an incorporated town it started off as unincorporated but it's its own thing now.

• 2:53:47Joe Rogan?

  I believe it's its own town and.

• 2:53:49Speaker 02

  Is there a mayor?

• 2:53:50Joe Rogan?

  That's a good question I think there is I think we talked about this I don't remember though but the actual factory itself is nuts cuz I Jamie and I were both like this is way bigger than I thought it was gonna be and the rockets are way bigger than you thought and like the garage doors are fucking bananas.

• 2:54:08Speaker 05

  They got a city government website. Commissioner, mayor.

• 2:54:15Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:54:17Speaker 02

  Bobby Pieten? Bobby Pieten is the mayor.

• 2:54:21Joe Rogan?

  They have their own little Irish pub. It's like, it's really cool. They have really good food.

• 2:54:25Speaker 02

  You know, when he, uh, when he opened the first, uh, Gigafactory, which was in Nevada, we had a party. And, uh, like, it was like a small opening thing. And so we all drove in there. And I have a video of me in a, just like a pickup truck, driving into the thing. I started the video. And I think it was 43 seconds until it ended. And this was like, you know, a decade ago, and I thought to myself, this is implausible. Like, I've never even contemplated things that could be built this big. I didn't think it was allowed. I don't even know how something like this works. And I was like, how does, how do you envision this whole thing works? Like, simple. Raw materials in the front. Cars out the back.

• 2:55:09Speaker 02

  That's it? It sounds so simple.

• 2:55:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, he thinks big. He thinks big, and thank God he's around. I mean, if he wasn't around, if he hadn't purchased Twitter, I think our entire civilization would look very different.

• 2:55:21Speaker 02

  Very different.

• 2:55:22Joe Rogan?

  It would, I mean, that sounds like a very grandiose thing to say.

• 2:55:25Speaker 02

  Sounds hyperbolic, but you're right.

• 2:55:26Joe Rogan?

  I think it's true. Cause I don't, I think free speech is a core component of our civilization. And I don't really think we had it. I think it was curated, and it was very tightly controlled by the actual federal government, which is spooky.

• 2:55:40Speaker 02

  No, no, it decided what we should be paying attention to.

• 2:55:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:55:45Speaker 02

  Just, just put it very simply, without kind of like, and that's not right.

• 2:55:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:55:50Speaker 02

  Because when they're telling you to pay attention to this, and the actual issue is this, and you cannot, then you can't fix what's actually broken.

• 2:55:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:56:00Speaker 02

  And you start to, we start to basically be like, we're, we're part of just a, a useful idiot for these people.

• 2:56:06Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:56:06Speaker 02

  And that's not right.

• 2:56:07Joe Rogan?

  It's not right. Listen, man, this was a lot of fun. It's always great to talk to you. Thank you very much for doing this. It was very cool. Um, let's do it again sometime. All right, thank you. All right. Bye, everybody.

• 2:56:33Speaker 00

  Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Terzepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems, to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains Terzepatide and should not be used with other Terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles.

• 2:57:15Speaker 00

  Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.