#2456 - Michael Jai White

Michael Jai White is an actor, director, writer, and martial artist. His latest film, “Oscar Shaw,” is available to stream on digital platforms.www.youtube.com/@RealMichaelJaiWhitewww.patreon.com/MichaelJaiWhitewww.michaeljaiwhite.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visit https://ThreatLocker.com/JRE to learn more Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Dude, you're all suited up. You got a wild card boxing hat on, a Bruce Lee shirt. Come on, son.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  Hey, we got the, the, the yellow and, uh, thing going on.

• 0:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you got it all going on. What's happened? Great to see you.

• 0:25Speaker 02

  Man, things are really well. This thing is a little loud.

• 0:28Joe Rogan?

  Is it? There's a, on that thing there, there's a little volume knob. You can turn that sucker down.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  There it is.

• 0:34Joe Rogan?

  Last time I saw you was at Terry Black's Barbecue.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 0:37Joe Rogan?

  Random run in.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was crazy. That was crazy. Yeah, man, I was thinking about going there right after this. I'm like, what? Terry Black's? That place was no joke.

• 0:45Joe Rogan?

  That place rules.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 0:47Joe Rogan?

  Are you still in LA?

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 0:50Joe Rogan?

  What's it like?

• 0:51Speaker 02

  It's cool, man.

• 0:52Joe Rogan?

  Is it? You like it? You're the only person that said that.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  No. Yeah, well, cause, okay, I, I defend LA in a way where, first of all, if you got a handful of good people with you, you know, and your family, then it's, then it's, so the fact that LA has all kinds of different things, you could be on a hiking trail in 20 minutes, you could be...

• 1:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, geographically, it's amazing.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the, and the weather, you can't, you can't beat it. So if you got good people, good friends with you, then, then it's all good.

• 1:23Joe Rogan?

  You just run by crooks. It's a nice neighborhood run by the mob. It's run by the woke mob. But I mean, geographically, you can't beat it. You could be at the ocean, and then you could be in the mountains in two hours.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, that's, that's, even if you don't partake, it's still cool. It still amps up the, uh, the ante, really.

• 1:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Like, the spot itself is magical. It is a magical place to live. Although, I am deeply concerned that that motherfucker's gonna get hit with a big one soon.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Hmm, it's about time, right?

• 1:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I was, I was reading this article about massive earthquakes in California, and how often they're spread out, and the possibility of one of them happening within the next decade. It's very high.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, I try not to think about that.

• 2:14Joe Rogan?

  I try not to think about it, too.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, but, um, you know, and now there's, you know, you could, I think they have better detection of that stuff now, too.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  It's better.

• 2:26Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. They can't detect. Do you remember what happened in Italy? A couple guys got arrested and went to jail. They were seismologists because the company, the country rather, didn't understand the ability to detect it. They had a big earthquake and a bunch of people died and so they blamed these geologists or seismologists. They wound up winning in court on appeal. Cause eventually the science was revealed like, hey, there's no fucking way you can really tell. But they hung these guys out. They blamed these guys on not being able to detect it.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Man, well, I mean, just think about it. The last crazy ones was seventy-two and then ninety-four.

• 3:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think it was ninety-three. I came, I moved to LA right after the last big one. I saw one of the sections of the highway that had collapsed on the other one. I remember driving by going, fuck this place.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  I was in the middle of that one. I just, I came into LA.

• 3:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you were there?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Dude, I don't even like to tell the story about what happened during that ninety-four earthquake. Because it, it sounds like bullshit. But literally, I got, I got up, ran out of my house, um, my apartment at the time, jumped off the balcony and watched it happen.

• 3:46Joe Rogan?

  You watched the house collapse?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  I watched the earthquake happen from outside.

• 3:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  It's, it's like no bullshit. Everybody, so I thought, oh shit, I overreacted. I had a bad dream. I, I lived on the first floor of this apartment building. All I know is I wake up, I'm off balance, catching my balance in the parking lot, right? And like, oh shoot, I gotta find the guard to get me back in the, in the apartment building, right? And I'm thinking, what, you know, what, what, what's like, I've lost my mind or something. The next thing you know, everything shakes and the lights go out. Just go, it just, everything gets black. And so I'm backing, I, I retreat back because I'm thinking the building is going to fall on me.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  And I'm like, wait a minute. Then I got the, the uh, story from everybody else that ex- that experienced it. They said that the first thing that happened was the, the building shook and the lights went out. Well, I was outside watching that. So I'm outside when it happened. Like some kind of canine.

• 5:00Joe Rogan?

  So what made you jump over the?

• 5:02Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 5:03Joe Rogan?

  You had a feeling?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 5:05Joe Rogan?

  Or did you have like the fir- was it the first rumbles?

• 5:08Speaker 02

  I thought, I thought it was, I thought I reacted to the, like some kind of an aftershock or some kind of rumble. No, cuz the girl that was with me.

• 5:17Joe Rogan?

  You left her in the apartment?

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  All she knows is that you jumped up and you ran out of, you, you ran out of the house and I heard the, the, the uh, the door slide. And that was, and then the next thing you know, everything shook. She couldn't, she was trapped in there. Because there was a, a closet door that trapped, um, trapped her in the hallway. So when I got back in the place, me and a friend had to try to pry the door open cuz she couldn't get out. But I ran out of that place before the earthquake actually happened.

• 5:59Joe Rogan?

  How weird.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:00Joe Rogan?

  You got good instincts.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  I don't know what the hell that was.

• 6:03Joe Rogan?

  It has to be cuz it.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  I don't even like telling that story cuz it sounds like bullshit.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  It really happened that way cuz then the guard, I talked to the guard, I'm like, hey, when did, when did the lights go out? Oh, it shook and the lights went out. I'm like, I'm watching that happen, so.

• 6:21Joe Rogan?

  So you felt it happen before it happened?

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Some kind of weird way.

• 6:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, I bet humans have that. Animals definitely have that. They talk about Thailand, how they had that tsunami and all the animals ran up to the highest point of the, of the island. They all just took off. It's like, they just knew instinctively.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  I don't know. Nothing like that has ever happened afterwards. But I gotta say, there's been, I've been lucky over the years.

• 6:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you're a dude who's tuned in. You're tuned into your body, you're tuned into your environment. You're not gonna get caught slipping. Like, you probably felt something and your spidey sense went off.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I kind of have been like that growing up. Like, I've been, you know, I've been on my own since I was fourteen. Been through crazy shit that you normally would see on movies.

• 7:13Joe Rogan?

  And that's the type of shit that gives you those kind of instincts.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  But, but yeah, and I was always the one that said, hey, let's leave, let's get out of here. And then, hey, man, there was a shootout that just happened right after you left. Or I could detect, like, the predators, you know what I mean?

• 7:29Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  So I grew up kind of that way.

• 7:32Joe Rogan?

  Right. With nobody looking out for you. Yeah. Nobody was looking out for you, you had to look out for yourself.

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• 9:01Speaker 00

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• 10:23Joe Rogan?

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• 11:24Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, I was... Oh, I was, I was like always the junior of the group. A lot of times, cause like I said, I've, you know, I've been on my own since I was fourteen. I haven't grown to end since I was thirteen, fourteen. I was, I looked like a grown ass man, right? I was fighting in tournaments at fifteen against, you know, uh, uh, grown men like, you know, fighting heavyweight at that time. But I was always hanging with older people. Uh, kind of, you know, kind of like I got away with kind of living as an adult early on.

• 12:00Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Because like, you know.

• 12:02Joe Rogan?

  Did you work?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I was teaching a karate sc- uh, a karate class. What, what was doing, what was, what was happening, see? I used to hang out at this community center in the hood. At this time, I moved from, from Brooklyn to Bridgeport, Connecticut, right?

• 12:18Joe Rogan?

  Bridgeport's a tough neighborhood.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it was a.

• 12:20Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people don't know.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, we had the top murder rate per capita, man, like.

• 12:24Joe Rogan?

  Bridgeport's rough.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, so I was, uh, constantly, I mean, there's a community center that was like my haven. And I would go practice with me and my other karate nuts, you know? And so I'd be in the, in the paper for winning heavyweight, you know, uh, competitions or whatever. And so the people that was running the community center said, why don't you teach a class? They thought I was an adult.

• 12:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's hilarious.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  And so I was teaching like a, you know, like, kind of like just under the table. I was getting paid under the table, basically. But I had like close to two hundred students early on, like when I'm fifteen, sixteen.

• 13:06Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's crazy.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, you know, it was kind of, kind of a trip that, you know, which is one of the reasons why I was a father at fifteen.

• 13:14Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  You know, cause I had, uh, one of my student's older sister, you know, it was, it was like, had a crush on her, her, uh, on his, uh, instructor. But I was like kind of living the life of a grown up, like, early on. And so, you know, there's, there's a faction of people in Bridgeport who think I'm Satan, I guess, because they think that I'm probably in my seventies.

• 13:43Joe Rogan?

  You're a vampire.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, so there was, there's some people I had to admit, like, uh, no, I wasn't the age you thought I was back then.

• 13:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's crazy.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean, so, yeah, you know, one of the things I, I, um,

• 13:57Speaker 02

  I'm really grateful for is growing up that early and having to, you know, use my instincts. And being that, you know, street fighting and, um, fighting was like my favorite thing to do, actually. And so with, when I got into the martial arts deeper and everything else, you know, I, I just, I just really, I really dug into it and wanted to learn style after style and this, you know, e- everything. I was just a martial art nerd for it. But, um, I also liked the, the, the realistic portion, portion of it. Even though I was doing other styles like Wushu and everything else, but, you know, it was, it was actually my haven.

• 14:39Joe Rogan?

  Somewhere Eddie Bravo has to find this video. There's a video of us working out together at Legends.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:46Joe Rogan?

  Where we were talking about hopping side kicks and different types of side kicks. And you threw, uh, there was a bag that we had that had a shitty chain.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 14:54Joe Rogan?

  But the, regardless, you threw a hopping side kick on that chain and the chain snapped and went flying, the bag went flying and Eddie Bravo was like, what the fuck? It's a funny video, man.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 15:06Joe Rogan?

  I know Eddie has it somewhere. I'll probably, I'll, I'll text him after this and try to see if he can put it up on his Instagram or something.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, yeah, back then, man, we were training when it wasn't even popular. You know, I used to see you in the gym all the time.

• 15:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  All the time, man, and, and you were, just think about this. Do you know, it was 29 years ago, the last time you interviewed me?

• 15:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  29 years ago.

• 15:30Joe Rogan?

  That, after, that Bob Costa show. He took a week off and I guest hosted it for a week. Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  And at that time, you were, you were already training with Maurice Smith.

• 15:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes, Maurice was one of the guests.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Right, you, you trained, cause I, I ended up training with Maurice Smith, you know, every time I'd go to Seattle. And, uh, we, we, we trained together. So, you know, we were like, Part of this like kind of karate martial art nerd culture.

• 15:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  When it wasn't even popular.

• 15:56Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 15:56Speaker 02

  I used to see you all the time, you know, you and you and you know, doing jujitsu, Carl Parisian and all these guys are legends. Where was another place? It was, we had, there was Legends and it was another.

• 16:08Joe Rogan?

  The Bomb Squad?

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:09Joe Rogan?

  The Bomb Squad was the first place that Eddie taught at, and then that place closed down, then we went to Legends. And then we moved to the other Legends that was like in more east LA. And then, uh, then Eddie started opening up his own place in downtown.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and that's where I would, I would train with Josh Barnett at that place.

• 16:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Quite a bit.

• 16:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 16:31Joe Rogan?

  Old days.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Yes, man, yeah. And who's who would be coming through the gym, because I would, I was training, um, I was training Bob Sapp. And one time, and then I, that's how I got Frankie Lyles connected into that.

• 16:44Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  And so.

• 16:46Joe Rogan?

  I remember Frankie. Frankie used to be at the Bomb Squad first.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, Frankie was like my best friend in the world and he was, you know, he was super middleweight champion in the world. That's, that's who got me deeply into boxing. And so I would always be at his training camps and, you know, I got to train with like, uh, Tommy Hearns and all these, all these amazing people like Sugar Ray and all these guys, man.

• 17:10Joe Rogan?

  Frankie's a great boxing coach.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:13Joe Rogan?

  He one of the most technical, he's one of the most technical guys I've ever worked with. Like, he analyzes every aspect of your jab. He's pulling in your elbow.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:21Joe Rogan?

  Tightening this, he's moving you here, he's like, like, he's showing all the like various basic little tiny details. That make all the difference in the world.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, that, that, he was my, my, you know, personal boxing coach. You know, I, I would train with him, uh, Joe Gooseon early on. But, um, but Frankie, I mean, we really kind of combined a lot of things. Because I started kind of teaching him.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Things with the jab, like the untelegraph type of stuff. And he started applying that. And he would, he would bring me into stuff and, you know, have me show people like Sugar Ray. Like, oh, Mike, explain this jab. And I'm like, what? I'm explaining this to Sugar Ray? This feels ridiculous, right? But, but it was like, but it was like this combination. Because like, I don't know, I'm, I'm very analytical and I love technique, you know? And, and so I would just try to break things down. And my whole thing was always to pressure test things. You know, so if I could develop a tool or a skill and I, and you can't stop it even if I tell you what's, what's, what I'm doing. Then it's a really good technique.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Then it's, then it's legit.

• 18:38Joe Rogan?

  The thing about no telegraph at all, it's so much more effective than a harder strike with a telegraph.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 18:45Joe Rogan?

  Because it lands. But it's so difficult to teach people that because everybody wants to hit everybody as hard as they can. Especially if you have power, your instinct is to fucking, to load up on everything. I remember I first saw you teaching that to Kimbo Slice.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 18:59Joe Rogan?

  You were on a movie set.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, because, um, Kimbo, oh, man, what a great guy.

• 19:04Joe Rogan?

  What a great guy he was.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  Wonderful guy. So that's one thing about fighting. You, you can't hide your nature. You know what I mean? You, people see who you are. And he was, he was a wonderful human being. Um, but like, but like a lot of people, like, almost like street basketball as opposed to, you know, uh, professional, you, you, you, you miss out on certain techniques that you need when you're, you're trying to step up.

• 19:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  And so like, well, Kimbo, you know, he, he would, like a lot of people, he would kind of telegraph. And so when we were shooting the movie, uh, you know,

• 19:41Speaker 02

  And I basically, we had a cameraman that did not really know how to shoot stuff. So I just had to do everything on screen. And so I would, I would, I just wanted to make everything very realistic. And so, so Kimbo had this rubber knife and I was like, try your best to touch me with a rubber knife. And so he would try, but before, but as soon as he would move, there'd be a little bit of an indication that I'd see. And then I, I throw the punch and it would go really close to him and I have him react to that. But he was going, wait, wait a minute, how are you, how are you hitting me before I can get this knife out? And then I, I told him, you know, I'll show you what that is later.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Because, you know, kind of like, not to be real nerdish about it, but like, why? Why are like fifty and sixty year old trainers meeting people's hands? Like a twenty year old guy's or contender's hands like this? You see the person with the pad moving just as much as the other guy? Because there's an indication there's, they, they do this beforehand. They're always kind of flexing and going in reverse before they go forward. So just for over years, I wouldn't do that and I would exploit that. You know, so it's kind of like a cheat code that I'm like, hell, what the hell, what the hell I'm gonna do with it? I'm, I'm an actor.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  So my thing is, just like yourself, when I see you, you know, with George St. Pierre and, and how we're all always in the gym. We're, you know, we're kind of collaborating, we're, you know, we're, we're, it's about just getting better, not. No ego or anything else like that. It's just like, hey, man, we're like, kind of, you know, kind of like jamming on, on technique and getting better.

• 21:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, especially if you run into someone who has a different style than you. Cause there's always something in different styles that you could take out of it.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 21:39Joe Rogan?

  There's always something and that we're seeing that now. There's all these different martial artists that are entering into MMA that are having these different techniques that people haven't seen before. And there's a lot of them that people dismiss that you're finding are very effective. Especially if you don't know how to do them, you don't know what they are. So you don't, you have like a database in your mind of movements, like. I'm sure you see when a guy's loading up on a spin.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:05Joe Rogan?

  Everybody sees that, but if you don't know that, you don't see it, right?

• 22:08Speaker 02

  And if you, if you were loading up, then you're not gonna, you're not gonna capitalize on it.

• 22:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Because you don't, you know, you're taking, there's a millisecond that you're taking because your movement is not efficient.

• 22:21Joe Rogan?

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• 23:02Joe Rogan?

  There's a move that still to this day, people aren't doing effectively when someone loads up because you could see the load up and it's just a jam. It's just lifting your foot up and putting it on the hips. And it's super effective in Taekwondo because everybody's fast. You know, everybody's like trying to do that technique. But that jam of just lifting your foot up and just not trying to hit them hard, just putting that foot on the hip, it fucks people up and I don't see anybody using that right now.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  I tell you, man, like, I don't, like, as in life, there's always something that you can gain.

• 23:32Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  From, you know, people wanna, I don't know, there are people in their own egos a lot of times. But like even Wushu. Me, it's, it's hard as hell for me doing Wushu against guys half my size. It's not against, but it's a performance thing.

• 23:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  But if I can do all of it, can go to these, these very, uh, hard techniques of like, good, I gotta get down to the floor and I gotta... And.

• 24:02Joe Rogan?

  Body mastery.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  At my, yeah, at my size.

• 24:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Well, then I'm better. So if I want to kick you in the eyebrow, I can.

• 24:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Because I'm, it's about, you know, having my body do what my mind's telling it to.

• 24:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  And so, but of course, people want to dismiss it because, oh, that ain't real. You can't use it. Yeah, good. Yeah. Just like ballet is hard as hell. You can't use that either. But anybody, any heavyweight who put themselves through ballet would be a better fighter.

• 24:31Joe Rogan?

  One hundred percent. Look at Lomachenko.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:33Joe Rogan?

  His dad taught him Ukrainian dance.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 24:35Joe Rogan?

  Lomachenko's dad pulled him out of boxing for two years when he was young.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:39Joe Rogan?

  And said, you're just gonna do Ukranian dance.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:42Joe Rogan?

  He's like, what the fuck am I doing? But look at that guy's footwork.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 24:45Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  And so, so it's, it's just that as in life, man, I don't look at anything from one group and just discard any, any, any other stuff.

• 24:54Joe Rogan?

  I used to when I was young.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:56Joe Rogan?

  And when I was young, I was pretty arrogant about certain things. I thought forms were stupid. All I wanted to do was spar and hit the bag.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:02Joe Rogan?

  Then as I got older, I realized, oh, there's a lot of wisdom in all this shit.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely. But yeah, but that's, like I say, I try to apply that to life, period.

• 25:10Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  You know, I never look at anything from one perspective. I mean, I grew up in the hood and I'm, you know, my favorite band is freaking, you know, the Eagles.

• 25:21Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 25:21Speaker 02

  And, yeah, I mean, like, you know, and I'm listening to Jody Mitchell and all, and people like, what are you doing listening? I'm like, what the fuck? You know, this, this is my life, man. Fuck you. Like, do you, you hear these lyrics? You hear, you, you hear Jody Mitchell's lyrics, man? What the fuck? That's all for me too. I mean, I'm just as passionate about, you know, Aerosmith as I am about the Isley Brothers. But, but I, it was, I've never looked at life as I have to think in this parameter. You know, I'm gotta be marginalized. That's, that's just, man, come on, it's such a waste of life.

• 25:58Joe Rogan?

  It is.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  It's all for you, man. So.

• 26:00Joe Rogan?

  I agree.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  With, with the martial arts and everything else, I look at every martial art. Uh, just like everything else, everything has something to contribute.

• 26:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  It's just like all people have something to contribute, even an idiot, you can learn from an idiot.

• 26:13Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm, you can, you can. A lot of idiots say wise things occasionally.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, because everybody's going to have a quotient of, of legitimacy.

• 26:24Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  You know, maybe, it may be twenty percent as a thing, and they don't see the eighty percent.

• 26:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  But until you acknowledge that twenty percent, they're not gonna hear you.

• 26:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? So that's the thing. It's like, man, we're on this planet, and one of the things I, man, I, I, I don't envy a whole lot of people, but I do, dude, I do envy you. Because you get to expand your world, you talk to so many interesting people, and that's, I mean, how, what a great thing. What a great thing to just have all these type of perspectives.

• 26:56Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  And all that coming through. And I gotta say, man, I'm super proud of you, because I, I know you as Joe from the gym, and look what you've done, man.

• 27:03Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  Man, it's like, that, that's a, that's a shot in the arm, because it's like, people that you like, and, and seeing them prosper, that's cool as shit, like.

• 27:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've learned a lot, man, and I, I didn't expect to, you know, when, when we first started doing this, it was just for fun. We just get together with our friends, you know?

• 27:19Speaker 02

  You knew what you wanted to do, man. You, you were pretty damn clear, because, do you remember this? You remember me coming to, I think, I think it was the Ice House?

• 27:27Joe Rogan?

  Pasadena?

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, no, no, no, oh, shoot, it wasn't Ice House, it was, it was in, it was in Orange County. I came to see.

• 27:33Joe Rogan?

  Comedy Magic Club, maybe?

• 27:34Speaker 02

  I came to see you perform, and I, I, I, um, offered you the, the role in Blood and Bone. Do you remember that at all?

• 27:42Joe Rogan?

  I do, yeah, yeah, I do now, yeah, okay.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Because Blood and Bone, which is like, actually Sony's most successful non-theatrical, that was basically a, a, a, kinda a, a reimagining of Hard Times with Charles Bronson.

• 28:00Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  And, um, uh, James Coburn. And, yes, well, that role was basically that I was offering you was the James Coburn role. Right? And, but you were so, you was dead set, and you just, I didn't, I don't wanna do this acting stuff. I wanna do, I wanna focus on what I, you know, your, your interest, which was, you know, you, the stand-up and you, you getting together, you're, I mean, I know you and Eddie were doing like kinda the early podcast type of stuff or whatever. And I'm like, man, you know, you really kinda knew what you wanted to do.

• 28:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, the, the thing about acting is, uh, I mean, I admire it, especially good acting.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:38Joe Rogan?

  But it takes a lot of time out of your day.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:40Joe Rogan?

  It's, it's a sixteen hour day, it's a long day, and it, it will take away from other things you do.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:48Joe Rogan?

  And I saw that with a lot of comics, that they started doing acting and it would take away from their act. Cause they really couldn't go and do sets every night, they couldn't really polish their material. You could see the stuff getting a little clunkier. It's just, you gotta, you gotta focus, you gotta find the things you enjoy and focus on them.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why, that's why I say I'm, I'm so proud of seeing, just being there and seeing what you did. Where you, you being a part of the UFC when it was nothing promised, you know what I mean?

• 29:17Joe Rogan?

  And not only was it not promised, man, people looked at you like you were doing like snuff films or something.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 29:22Joe Rogan?

  They, they looked at, like, I remember the early days, man, Dana White always says this, people would talk to you like you were doing porn or something.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 29:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, I was on news radio, the sitcom on NBC, and I was doing commentary, where I was doing post-fight interviews for the UFC. And they were like, why are you doing this? Why are you flying to Alabama and doing cage fights?

• 29:41Speaker 02

  See, this is what movies are, good movies are made of shit like this. You know, and somebody just on, or just out, out of their spirit, doing what they wanna do with, with no promise of anything, and then accomplishing something, so, you know, and kudos, man.

• 29:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Seriously, man.

• 29:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, for me, and I'm sure for you as well, when we were young, there was always a question, what is the best style? Is it Kyokushin? Is it Judo? Is it Kung Fu? What is it? What's the best style? And no one really knew.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 30:10Joe Rogan?

  I mean, Benny the Jet fought in a bunch of those no rules fights early, early on, but they never really took off. There wasn't, there wasn't a lot of those, you know, and Benny was obviously a very special fighter.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:21Joe Rogan?

  But-

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was one of my teachers, too.

• 30:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I trained at his gym. Those were the first, he was on the podcast with Blinkie. Blinkie Rodriguez.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Right, right, yeah, yeah.

• 30:29Joe Rogan?

  Recently, and I told them, I said, when I came to LA, there was two places I had to go. I had to go to the Comedy Store, and I had to go to the Jet Center. Jet Center. Had to go to the Jet Center. And I was there in 94, right before it went under. Because the, the earthquake damaged the roof.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 30:43Joe Rogan?

  And so when the rainy season came.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  On Friar Street, right?

• 30:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  Right down from the Gooseons.

• 30:48Joe Rogan?

  Yep, yeah, right down.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:50Joe Rogan?

  And that, that was an honor, man, to be able to train in that gym. That was incredible. It was incredible.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I used to be there.

• 30:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, it's, yeah, that, that, those were some great times, because, I mean, I connect with Benny. Where, because when I was in Bridgeport, my instructor, Manny Malisi, went, went to California and started training with Benny.

• 31:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Early on, so he put that on the map about coming, you know, to the Mecca and training with Benny.

• 31:18Joe Rogan?

  It was the Mecca. For, for kickboxing, in, especially in the 90s, that was the Mecca. You had to go to the Jet Center. Everybody talked about the Jet Center.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, that was, that was classic.

• 31:27Joe Rogan?

  We were always wondering, like, what is the style? What's the best style? And then the UFC came along, and I'm like, oh, my God, they did it. They did it. They figured it out. They put it all together. And for a while, it was Jiu-Jitsu, because nobody understood Jiu-Jitsu, and Hoist Gracie was just running shit.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Well, you know, you, you know how that was kind of set up a little bit?

• 31:45Joe Rogan?

  It was a little set up, but, but, I mean, look, he had some challenges, like Ken Shamrock was a beast.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:50Joe Rogan?

  He had some really good fighters he used to be seeing against. Kimo Slice, I mean, excuse me, not Kimo Slice, um.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Not Chemo.

• 31:56Joe Rogan?

  Chemo, sorry. Chemo was fucking huge, man.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  He was a big dude, but, you know, he, he didn't really, well.

• 32:02Joe Rogan?

  It was a hundred-pound advantage.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:05Joe Rogan?

  He had a hundred pounds over Hoist.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  The Gracies were smart. They were very smart at that time, knowing, you know, the, the right people to kind of pick at that time. Because, you know, there was some, there was some killers out there.

• 32:17Joe Rogan?

  There were some killers out there. Yeah, they definitely set it up, especially the early ones. But it's also, it's like. You know, that was, it was good for us to see a guy like Hoist. Who wasn't jacked. He was a slender guy, who wouldn't weigh a hundred and seventy-five pounds. And he was strangling everybody, and arm barring everybody. It was, it was wild to see. When he beat Dan Severin. Dan Severin was two hundred and sixty pounds, and Hoist tapped him off his back with a triangle.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, man, what a story. That put, that put.

• 32:46Joe Rogan?

  Jiu Jitsu on the map.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  On the map, big time. But you know, one thing that always broke my heart is people never knew about, uh, Hickson.

• 32:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Oh, my god.

• 32:54Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  That dude.

• 32:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  That cat was like, I, I always considered him like, pound for pound, the best, because he, he, not, he had this, not only, you know, jiu jitsu skills, but just his concentration.

• 33:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  And he was almost like, you know, hypnotic.

• 33:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? The, and just no waste of energy.

• 33:17Joe Rogan?

  None.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Just unbelievable. What an amazing person to watch. You know, I would encourage anybody to pull up his, his fight.

• 33:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, he had another great example. Oh, yeah, another great example of cross training, too, because Hickson got really into yoga.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 33:31Joe Rogan?

  And everybody's like, what the fuck are you doing yoga? Like, yoga's for girls, right? Hickson got really into yoga and got super flexible and su, and really good at controlling his breathing.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 33:43Joe Rogan?

  And never got tired.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, you saw him in that, in the Hulk?

• 33:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, with that Norton, yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, man, it's, it's something, man, that, that, talk about a legend.

• 33:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, a real legend, yeah.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 33:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, Hickson, there's a video of him, and he did this multiple times, where he would go to these gyms, and he would, um, teach a seminar, like a long seminar, and then roll with all the black belts.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:07Joe Rogan?

  And just tap them one after the other, one after, world champions. Guys who just didn't understand what was going on. Like, how was this happening?

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:16Joe Rogan?

  Like, Paul Ophelia, when he was a W E C world champion, and he was, uh, he had won the Mundials, I believe. He'd won multiple jiu jitsu championships. And he, he trained with Hickson, and he's like, man, it's true. He goes, I can't believe it. He goes, that guy treated me like I didn't even believe. Long in there. It was crazy. And Hickson by that time was probably like forty. You know, and he's still just dominating guys on the mat and effortless. It wasn't strength. It was it was just pure technique and movement.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Basics and just mastering of basics.

• 34:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, basics. It was like there's none of the, no barimbolos and no X guard, nothing crazy. Everything he did is like Jiu Jitsu one oh one, but to a masterful, masterful degree.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:05Joe Rogan?

  It was incredible.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  And telling people that, you know, because everybody knows Hoist and I'm like, you, you guys don't know who his big brother is.

• 35:12Joe Rogan?

  His brother, he would openly say that my brother is ten times better than you.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, yeah. So, you know, that's that really put, and I love Jiu Jitsu because it it's it's held up the tradition. That martial arts, so much karate lost because it became a business. And people would just, you know, put their time in and pay for their black belt.

• 35:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  And it just watered it down. And all these people running around saying that they're master this and, you know, grand whatever. And all these made up things. And it's like, oh yeah, the guy's a master in a in an Asian martial art. That's that's a that's a English word.

• 35:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? How did how did master sneak its way into a? Yeah, but anyway, but you know, male ego, you know.

• 36:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, the thing about martial arts, other than Jiu Jitsu, is when you're sparring, it's very controlled. Like a lot of karate sparring is very controlled. A lot of tagwondo sparring is very controlled. But in Jiu Jitsu, the beautiful thing about grappling is you know how good everybody is because they all spar. And they're all rolling with each other and they're essentially going full blast until the tap.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:22Joe Rogan?

  And so you, there's no hiding, no hiding your skill.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love what Eddie Bravo used to say. Basically, when you you won, I killed you.

• 36:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  I just killed you.

• 36:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  You know, so that's like, wow, that's a, that is a trip because it's like, it actually works out that way.

• 36:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:40Joe Rogan?

  If he gets you in a triangle and you tap, it's because you were about to go to sleep.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:44Joe Rogan?

  And once you're asleep, you could just stomp your head into a pancake.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you're, you're done.

• 36:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just hold on to that triangle and then you never wake up.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, what a humbling thing.

• 36:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:53Joe Rogan?

  Very humbling, yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:55Joe Rogan?

  And what's really humbling is how quickly someone could do it to you when you don't know what you're doing.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:59Joe Rogan?

  Like, that was shocking to me because I had all this martial arts experience and I first started training, I was like, what's someone gonna do to me? I wrestled in high school, I'm strong, I'm fast, I know how to fight.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:10Joe Rogan?

  I just got manhandled over and over and over again.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:13Joe Rogan?

  This is ridiculous.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, that, but kudos because a lot of people, they, because of, if you've got an egotistical thing going and you, you know, get that, your, your little, I don't know, you're, you're, you're comforted because you got your black belt and all that kind of stuff, that means you jack nothing. You know, to everybody I know who continues and really to learn, you know, real fighting.

• 37:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Knows when you, you had a boxer beat the hell out of you and you go, oh wait, there's a lot of this stuff I gotta toss out the window.

• 37:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  And, because I mean, I, I never forget like times where, you know, like, a wrestler gets to me or a boxer like pieces me up like early on, I'm like, no, I got to learn this.

• 37:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:59Joe Rogan?

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• 39:43Joe Rogan?

  I went through several of those.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:46Joe Rogan?

  I went through one of them in high school because I had a friend in high school that was a wrestler, and I didn't think anything of wrestling. I'm like, "That's not even a martial art." And then we wrestled on the grass one day, and he just took me down at will. And I was like, "This is ridiculous." Like, he was pinning me down. I couldn't move. I couldn't get up. I'm like, "This is stunning."

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:05Joe Rogan?

  I thought, "I'm strong." I thought I could move. I thought I'd be able to get out of the way. No. I had no chance. And he wasn't even a great wrestler. He was just a decent wrestler. And he just humbled me over and over and over again. So then I started wrestling. Then when I got into Taekwondo, I thought, "I'm really good at Taekwondo." I was competing on a national level. I won the state championships four years in a row. I was fucking people up. And then I remember the first time I boxed with a really good amateur boxer. I was like, "Oh, Lord." And this kid was like eighteen years old. And I was at the gen- and he went on, this kid, his name's Dana Rosenblatt. He went on to become a New England middleweight champion. He beat Vinnie Pazienza.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 40:48Joe Rogan?

  He beat Howard Davis Jr. as a professional. He was a really good boxer.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  Wow, yeah, he had to be.

• 40:53Joe Rogan?

  But he was kickboxing at the time. And I was gonna get into kickboxing. And so I was sparring with him. But when I was boxing with him, I was just getting lit up. I was like, oh, and then also when we're kickboxing, the moment he got close to me, I was in trouble.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:07Joe Rogan?

  I was like, oh, no, like Taekwondo had too many flaws.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 41:11Joe Rogan?

  The hand techniques, so I had gone through that. And so then I thought, okay, well, now I understand kickboxing. Then I met a dude who went to Thailand a bunch of times and was training Muay Thai and fighting over there. And then I started learning leg kicks. I'm like, well, oh, good lord. Now all they have to do is kick my legs? I didn't even think of that.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:28Joe Rogan?

  And then I started really paying attention to WKA fights, like the old Dennis Alexio days. Don the Dragon Wilson. And I was like, leg kicks, leg kicks are everything. Oh, my goodness.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:40Joe Rogan?

  And then I'm like, okay, well, now I got a solid foundation. I understand how to fight. And then I started getting Jiu-Jitsu. Like, oh, no, back to square one.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:48Joe Rogan?

  I'm getting raped. I was just getting mauled on the mats.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:52Joe Rogan?

  This is, but I'd been through that so many times and restarted so many times. I was like, well, it's time to learn this now.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that's, that's what I'm saying is, everything has something to teach you.

• 42:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  And, you know, even, even though there's that, this is a martial art, there's a fantasy world, which is, I, I look at it as hilarious. You know, there, there's this, you know, uh, I, I don't know, there's, sometimes I, I would, I would say it like this, like, with martial arts, is the, the Dunning Kruger effect in the largest way possible. Cause everybody out there has an opinion of martial arts, though very few people really know what it is. You know, they wanna look at, you know, the movies and everything, and they really wanna believe that. They wanna believe that this guy who, you know, kicks in the air and all that kind of stuff, will be able to beat a, a champion.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  And in a way, hey, I benefit from that to some degree because they, you know, they, they think that about me. But, you know, I mean, even though I, I, I'm comfortable fighting and I'd love to, I mean, I just love, you know, fighting against anybody, you know, but.

• 43:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, you've had actual competition experience, like a lot of competition experience.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, but my, my best experience is. Was is with like, I got I got the chance to train against champions at their place. You know, when they're at their best. And it's not an ego thing, it's just like, I I love to be able to test myself. And I mean, because I'm my biggest competition. And so that whole thing about um just what the bow means to me is like, thank you for making me better.

• 43:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  By providing me an obstacle. And and the higher the I, you know, the better the person, the better I can become.

• 43:41Joe Rogan?

  One hundred percent.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  And so I loved it, so I've, you know, for years, I'm in there with Gokhan Saki and, you know, Maurice Smiths and, you know, who, you know, you name it, I I there's, I've gotten, I'm I consider myself one of the luckiest like martial artists in on the planet because I get to train with so many people, sometimes, you know, at my house and, you know, I've got all these, you know, former champions, you know, training and Rampage, when he was champion, I go to his place and, you know, and and honestly, like, the things I brag about is when I get humbled, you know, because that's when I learn something.

• 44:20Joe Rogan?

  For sure.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  My my philosophy is I love to be wrong because every time I'm wrong, I learn something.

• 44:25Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  And so like some of the the best times for me is like, I know when I was, you know, uh Michael Bisping was getting ready for uh uh to fight George St Pierre and we were in Thailand and I was like, yeah, you know, let's let's like, let's mix it up.

• 44:40Joe Rogan?

  What were you doing in Thailand?

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Uh, we were doing a movie out there.

• 44:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  But he had to train, he was getting ready uh for the George St Pierre fight. And so, you know, I was like, yeah, let's let's do some rounds or whatever, and I I got so winded. The second round, I'm like, dude, just whoop my ass, I I feel so like, like, I'm embarrassed.

• 45:04Joe Rogan?

  Bisping was a cardio machine.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Yes, he was.

• 45:06Joe Rogan?

  He was a cardio machine.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  I didn't expect that because we were, we spent all day on a yacht the day before and he was drinking nonstop. I'm a non-drinker, right? I'm like, this guy's gonna, you know, eh, I'm gonna probably take it easy on him today.

• 45:22Joe Rogan?

  He is one of the toughest motherfuckers that ever fought in the sport.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  I swear.

• 45:27Joe Rogan?

  This is what I say about him. No matter what you think about watching his fights, you have to understand, not only did he accomplish so much, he accomplished a lot of it with one eye. One fucking eye. He had 11 fights in the UFC with a winning record with one eye.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:45Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that's, man.

• 45:48Joe Rogan?

  He would memorize the eye chart. So that when they covered his eye, he could side it out like he could read it.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 45:58Joe Rogan?

  How fucking crazy is that?

• 45:59Speaker 02

  He's got a hell of a, he's got a hell of a personal story, too. I was trying to encourage him to get that, get that made, you know? Like, honestly, man, I, I really, I really look at these UFC fighters and, you know, the MMA guys as our modern day heroes. They're our gladiators. And so, whenever I have a chance, man, I always like to put them in movies and try to expose them to another kind of way of, you know, getting paid.

• 46:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Especially afterwards, because I, some, it breaks my heart that they're heroes and then they get discarded sometimes. But, man, not, not by the, um, the union that they're with, but just by the fans. They're so fickle sometimes.

• 46:43Joe Rogan?

  Yes, well, the casuals, the people that aren't really martial artists.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, so.

• 46:49Joe Rogan?

  They dismiss a guy when they lose a few.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just did my, my third movie with, uh, with Cowboy Cerrone. You know, uh, we just finished a little over a week ago.

• 46:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's doing really good, man.

• 47:01Joe Rogan?

  I love that, too.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 47:02Joe Rogan?

  That's a guy that could really legitimately transition to become a movie star.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, and he's got a lot more confidence. This, like I said, the third movie, I did an, I did a, he did a western with me. Uh, Outlaw Johnny Black, I wrote and directed it. Uh, but I had, I had Cowboy, uh, I had Randy Couture in it.

• 47:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  And then Josh Barnett.

• 47:24Joe Rogan?

  Randy's done an amazing job of transitioning.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 47:27Joe Rogan?

  The Expendables, you know, and he's great at it.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:31Joe Rogan?

  He has a great personality, just very, very calm. He, like, he, well, I remember one time, he was fighting Tim Sylvia for the heavyweight title, and he came out there, he had a smile on his face, he looked over at me and he winked. I'm like, how is this motherfucker so relaxed?

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:47Joe Rogan?

  Before his fight, but he had a, an amazing perspective. He's like, he said to me, "The people who love you will love you whether you win or lose." And he said, "What's the worst thing that can happen? You lose?" He goes, "You've lost before."

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:00Joe Rogan?

  It's no big deal.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember him spanking Tito.

• 48:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he got top of him, spanking him when he had him down.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:06Joe Rogan?

  Randy was an animal.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, when we, you know, he had that heart attack while he was shooting my movie.

• 48:11Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  And then came back to set like nothing.

• 48:15Joe Rogan?

  How did he have a fucking heart attack?

• 48:16Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't remember how exactly, it was, and I think he, he drove himself to the hospital. Yeah, man, it's, talk about an American hero, man, I mean.

• 48:29Joe Rogan?

  I was there for his first fight.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Really?

• 48:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, 1997, yeah, I was there for his very first fight.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Oh, shoot.

• 48:34Joe Rogan?

  He fought this huge jack dude, took him down, mounted him, beat the shit out of him. It was wild, it was like, that was the time where wrestlers had first started cracking this code.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:44Joe Rogan?

  Right, there was this code of, there was a lot of people that thought like Jiu-Jitsu was the only way, and then the elite wrestlers got in there.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 48:51Joe Rogan?

  The Mark Kers, the Mark Coleman's, and then Randy, a bunch of these guys got in there, and then they realized like, if a guy can just take you down and beat the fuck out of you from the top, there's not a whole lot you could do about it.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 49:03Joe Rogan?

  And then we realized like, boy, that is the corner, that's the true cornerstone of martial arts.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:07Joe Rogan?

  The ability to take a guy down.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  My goodness, I mean, what's harder than wrestling? I don't think there's anything.

• 49:12Joe Rogan?

  The hardest sport in the world.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:13Joe Rogan?

  The hardest sport in the world and the best sport in the world to get your kids into at a young age. Because the discipline and the mental toughness that they get will carry them through for the rest of their life.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Yep, tenacity, the just the stick-to-itiveness, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah, that's just like.

• 49:29Joe Rogan?

  Even high school wrestling, I remember wrestling in high school and I had already done martial arts, but I was like, I'd never trained that hard. I was like, I can't believe, and then it carried me over into my tag with no career because I realized like, oh, I'm leaving a lot on the table. Like, I'm not training like these guys are.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 49:45Joe Rogan?

  So I started running, I started adding all these things to my training that I wasn't doing before. I started doing a lot more calisthenics, a lot more different things. I'm like, I'm leaving something on the table because we were not training in the gym and we were sparring hard. We were doing hard rounds of it, you'd get tired, but it was not the same as what we were doing in wrestling. No one trains harder than wrestlers.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  That anaerobic stuff, man, that's, that's, man, I got, I got the wrestling bug when, um, and when I was in my, I was a senior in high school. And the football coach was a wrestler in, in college. And he, he challenged me. He, I think we did this two years in a row, in my junior year and my senior year. At the end of the year, we, he, we'd wrestle. We'd just go like, you know, he and I, I was, like I said, I was big for my age.

• 50:32Joe Rogan?

  Were you playing football?

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I was for a very short time, but I ended up, um, I was, I wasn't, I wasn't designed for, for, um, team sports.

• 50:45Joe Rogan?

  Me neither.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  And I ended up beating up the football coach.

• 50:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had a, I, dude, like, I had, I had the worst temper than anybody I had ever seen. I mean, I used to go in the Fitz of Rage, I was so angry early on, man. It's like the Hulk is like, Mike, you should chill out a little bit, man. It's like, I, I was just.

• 51:10Joe Rogan?

  It's probably from being on your own at 14.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, what it is, is like, I was growing up in a very harsh environment. And I was, I didn't know I was an artist. I didn't know I was a writer, director, whatever, you know, they didn't, you didn't see those growing up where I am.

• 51:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  And so when you're a sensitive kid, man, what you do is you, you build armor. Like, I was to play Mike Tyson later on, and I understood him quite well. Uh, and if you're sensitive, you, you know, anything that's precious, you put it in, you lock it in a safe. And you become the safe. And it's, it's like, I grew up, my brothers were completely different, they're engineers. So things rolled off their back. But like, for me, just, I was just volatile. And luckily, I had martial arts to kind of folk, put my focus into. But like I said, like a, like I was to play Mike Tyson, I understood him a, a great deal.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  And, you know, even though you take the moniker of this monster, it's only to hide what's really deep inside. And that's why you would see if anybody's gonna go into tears in front of a million people, it's people like Mike Tyson. And you go, how does that fit in the same person?

• 52:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  And so, that's what I was growing up in, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I, I was a, I was a school teacher before I was an actor.

• 52:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I taught EMD, I was a, a special ed teacher. So I focused on a lot of kids who were very much like me, and I still do that, in the way I consider that my real job. Whenever I'm off from work, on a movie or whatever, I go into the inner cities, I go into community centers. I devote my time, because there's nothing that I could do, there's no better spending of time than something like that. Because I, I was luckily, luckily saved. I had, just at the right times in my life, just different seeds planted. And so I'm, I'm confident that if those seeds were not planted, I would not be here. Because, like I say, I was, I've been through some, some crazy stuff.

• 53:23Joe Rogan?

  It's a classic story.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, bro, man, like, I'll tell you, like, just a little, under two years ago, a buddy of mine, who's a close friend of mine, um, he, he got out of prison, he was in prison for almost like thirty years. And he found me on Facebook. And so when I went back east, we we linked up. And I, you know, I know a lot of people who has have, I don't know, businesses and everything. I hooked him up, you know, got him a job and we were sitting over lunch. And in the middle of him telling me like the third or fourth story, like back in the glory days of us or whatever.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  While he was in the middle of this story, I was, I was, you know, kind of getting myself set to kind of set him straight because I don't know if you want to call this superstitious, but I won't lie. I I refuse to lie to my friends. I even, I won't lie by omission.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  So I was getting set to tell him, dude, man, you gotta stop embellishing all these stories just because you were locked up and you made these stories sound bigger than than life.

• 54:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  I get it, but you're, that's not real. You gotta, you gotta really, you know, kind of not do that. And in the middle of me thinking that and I'm listening to him, I go, holy shit. He's telling the truth. I started remembering what he was telling me.

• 54:52Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  And I'm like, now I'm finishing his sentences. Not only was that story true, but the other ones were true too. And dude, like I swear, every time I think about this, I I got these goosebumps. And I realized, oh, my God, how close I was to being where he was or just not being on this planet.

• 55:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Like, I better devote my time into helping kids the way I was helped.

• 55:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, don't pull that ladder up.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  No, no, hell, no, hell, no. Even if I'm taken out, I I accept that.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Even if I'm in some projects where where I'm not supposed to be and I shouldn't have been, I accept that because dude, I am abundantly lucky. I like it's it doesn't even it doesn't even fit on the radar how lucky I am. And I could remember a lot of these crazy stories, you know, aside from the ones that he made me conjure back up. But man, I'm like, wow.

• 56:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, that speaks to your character that you had downplayed it all in your mind so much that you thought he was exaggerating.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  I swept it under the rug.

• 56:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  I I.

• 56:10Joe Rogan?

  Cause you're not that person anymore.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  No, no, but I mean, but there was so much.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  There were so many events, things that would I just call it on a Wednesday that I went through. That it's like, I don't know, like, I think I wouldn't trade it. Because I I continue to be the happiest guy I know because of, I think, some of that.

• 56:37Joe Rogan?

  Cause you can appreciate the good times.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, yeah. And I should be slapped if I complain about anything.

• 56:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, what? And so, you know, so I just, boy, I I just know I'm so blessed. And and you know what what we do, what we're doing even right now, man, we're we're in the service industry, man. You know, you're here to serve, in my my opinion. That's what we're all here for. And, you know, it's great that we get to serve and doing the things that we would like to do.

• 57:12Joe Rogan?

  That's definitely a lot of what we do. I mean, there's definitely a lot of it, right? You you you entertain, but I feel very blessed that I've been able to expose people to so many different ways of thinking, so much information, so many different human beings that have led completely different paths.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 57:30Joe Rogan?

  That can tell you about whatever discipline they're involved in, what they've learned and what we're what we're working on right now. And what you can learn about the human mind, the body, ancient history, fill in the blank, like whatever it is.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and I see you do that over and over and you in utmost honesty, I remember like where you had to kind of pull Shab aside until as a friend. Some things that are hard for people that, you know, other friends to tell him, you know, and like.

• 58:00Joe Rogan?

  That was real hard.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, that was real hard because I love that guy. He's a great, he's a great person. He's a great human being. And I knew the path. I, I'd seen it too many times, but I hadn't seen it with someone I was that close with. I was like, you have to stop because you, not only that you're in the heavyweight division. So the knockouts are brutal and you're gonna get three or four more in the next couple of years. And then you're not gonna recover from those.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  But man, so many people, I, I hope they take a page out of that because it's so non-manly, I feel, to not, to just not say anything.

• 58:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  And allow somebody you love to go down the road. I mean, that, that might be detrimental for them.

• 58:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, it was also, Shab had another path. He was really good at podcasting. He's fun. He's a funny dude.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 58:49Joe Rogan?

  He's like, as a podcast, he's like, he got a great personality. He's hilarious. He's silly. You know, he's a big, giant, silly dude.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:56Joe Rogan?

  Like, we would have so much fun and he was doing really well and he was making more money doing that than he was finding.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:01Joe Rogan?

  But his identity was so wrapped up in him being a top 10 UFC heavyweight.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he had beat world-class guys like Mirko Krokop, you know, and he was legit, man. But tho- that time had passed.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:13Joe Rogan?

  And I'd saw that his, he was one foot in and one foot out. And as soon as the guy's one foot in, one foot out, you're gonna run into some guy who has both feet in and is a fucking samurai. And then you're gonna wake up on a stretcher.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:26Joe Rogan?

  You're on the way to the hospital going, what happened? And you don't remember the fight. You don't remember nothing.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:32Joe Rogan?

  And then you don't know where your keys are. You forget people's names. You for, you tell the same story over and over again. And then you struggle to put sentences together. When you start seeing dudes with the slur.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  That, man.

• 59:44Joe Rogan?

  Nothing's worth that. Cause you're, I mean, at the time, he was only 35 years old or whatever he was. I'm like, man, you got another 45, 55 years of life. You, you can't do this. You can't, you, you can't sacrifice all these years for glory that will never be achieved anyway because you're not on that path anymore.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not. About what strangers say about you.

• 1:00:06Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  It's about you, you know, your friends, your family, people really love you.

• 1:00:10Joe Rogan?

  It's just so hard for people to abandon that identity. That's the hardest thing with fighters is to abandon that identity. We've seen so many guys, even the greats, they come back and they shouldn't and you see it and you see them get humiliated and you're like, oh.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and when it comes down to it, these people, they don't love you, man, like a lot of, you know, it's.

• 1:00:33Joe Rogan?

  They love you as the image.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, they live vicariously through you. I remember, I remember one time I was in, um, fighting in Boston. And I remember when something completely changed. Usually, if anybody, because I did any kind of thing, I would do. Kickboxing or this tournament, I, I, I just loved my, my best. I think the, the thing I did best in the world was fighting. I had this, I always had these cheat codes in a way. And I enjoyed the, the chess match of it. And anybody who were, was against me. I don't care if you were my cousin or whatever, you're gonna pay for all the angst that I've, I've had in my life.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  But until, there was this one time, I swear, I ducked a technique, I caught somebody with something. That was kind of, you know, kind of cool. And I just remember the audience just cheering. And in that moment, I was like, just angry. Kind of like, yo, this guy could really be messed up right now. You're cheering for me, you're living vicariously through me. Like I'm a pit bull or something.

• 1:01:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  And I got angry at the audience. I fucking hated them. And I said, because if I was down on the ground. You'd be cheering for the person that put me down. And something just snapped. And I go, no. This is not enough for me. This is, this is not, this is not what I want to do. And, and, you know, just something snapped and I, I'd much rather.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Be skillful, test myself in a skillful way.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  And I'd much rather not try to peel your head off, but show I could. As opposed to, you know, that triumph of dominating. It was nothing for me anymore in that.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  You know, and just something, it's just something just rubbed me the wrong way and I just. Anytime I would do any kind of competition, it was for me and it wasn't for an audience. You know, I, it's just something soured. I, I, I always thought at one time, I'm gonna be called out, you know, and I thought, oh, I'll, I'll, I'll rise to that occasion if that, that happens. And, you know, kinda like, remember that thing with you and Wesley?

• 1:03:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:08Speaker 02

  Which would have been, oh my god, that would have been terrible. But, um, oh, yeah, but, uh, but I always thought, hey, well, you know, maybe, you know, something.

• 1:03:17Joe Rogan?

  I think Wesley just needed money. I mean, that was one.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  I don't think he'd ever be, I don't think that was ever serious, but it's, it's very much like, I think.

• 1:03:24Joe Rogan?

  We were, we were in negotiation for quite a while, man. We had lawyers involved.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's always easy to pull the plug on something like that. Just like Jean-Claude's talking about fighting, uh, Jake, Jake Paul, right?

• 1:03:35Joe Rogan?

  Is he talking about that right? He's a hundred years old.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like.

• 1:03:37Joe Rogan?

  He weighs fifty pounds.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  I'm like, I'm like, come on, man, come on.

• 1:03:41Joe Rogan?

  Is he really talking about Mike?

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  I just saw something in the last couple of days, I'm like, okay.

• 1:03:47Joe Rogan?

  I think Wesley was serious because I think they had, um, they had hit him with that tax case. And he owed a lot of money to the government.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  Before that tax case.

• 1:03:56Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, it was in the middle of it.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:03:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, a hundred percent. I know it was. Yeah, yeah, it was two thousand, I wanna say five or six. It was in the middle of all that and he was in trouble. It was, it was serious. And he, you know, obviously eventually wound up going to jail.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:12Joe Rogan?

  And so they were gonna set up a fight with him and Jean-Claude Van Damme. That was the first fight. But Campbell McLaren, yeah, Campbell McLaren from the UFC was like, no one gives a shit about you fighting Jean-Claude Van Damme. You gotta fight someone who's current. And so he said, let me contact Joe Rogan. He called me up and he said, would you be willing to fight Wesley Snipes? And I was like, what? And I was like, come on, really? I go, what is this? And so I said, let me think about it. I thought about it, I called him the next day, I said, let's fucking do it.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:04:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I was training with Rob Kamen in the mornings and then I was doing jujitsu at night. I trained twice a day for six months.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:04:48Joe Rogan?

  I was always tired. I was always tired. That's one thing that I realized, like, fuck, man, to be like, and I wasn't even a professional, really, but it was training like a professional, it's like, I can't believe how tired I am all the time. Um, but, you know, I think Wesley had never really had a fight. I don't think so. I think he was, he was an accomplished martial artist, he had good technique.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  I, I trained with Wesley's instructors. Um, you know, Marcus Elgato was a good friend of mine and, um, and also, uh, Lamar Thornton, who was Marcus Elgato's instructor, that's, I believe, the, that's the only, that's the, the lineage I, I believe that he's through. But I mean, I've never, I've known Wesley since way before he was kind of Wesley.

• 1:05:32Joe Rogan?

  Wow, I was a giant fan of Wesley, too, which was also wild for me. Cause I love Blade, Blade was like my favorite comic book when I was a kid.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I just didn't, I didn't think they were serious about, I didn't, I couldn't imagine why would Wesley, I, I always thought it was not real.

• 1:05:49Joe Rogan?

  I think Wesley thought that I was just a grappler and think he knew that I was doing jujitsu. I don't think he knew my background. And so, like, they were, Wesley was talking to them, saying, oh, he, he thinks he's gonna be able to stop you from taking him down, and he's gonna catch you with a knee while you're coming in to try to take him down. I'm like, I'll go, oh, he wants to stand up? I go, I'm way better at that.

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was, I was wondering how that even occurred. I, I didn't think that was serious. I, I was like, okay.

• 1:06:19Joe Rogan?

  It was serious, yeah, it was serious. It, it went on for a long time. It was a lot of negotiation, to the point where I even talked about it on the UFC broadcast once. I said, come on Wesley, sign the contract, I'm getting bored training, let's do this. Like, I have to do it now, I was like thirty-five or thirty-six. I was like, I don't have much time left. If we're gonna do this, we have to do this now. Like, come on, let's go. And then he decided not to, and then I'm like, that's probably for the better.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I I knew Wesley for a while. I remember when he was first telling me about the sovereign, being sovereign.

• 1:06:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's where they got him with that sovereign citizen shit.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I was like, I'm I'm.

• 1:06:59Joe Rogan?

  I wish I was friends with him. I would've said, dude, they're gonna lock you up.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  I was, I'm super protective of my friends. I've always been that way. And with Wesley, I was always like, my thing is, he used to have people around him. That I'm like, you know, we we have little get togethers at my house, whatever. I'm like, don't bring any of those motherfuckers.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Or it's gonna be a problem. You know, cuz there's there's people that just I felt like were hangers on and.

• 1:07:25Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  You know, that kind of a thing. And I was always like, hey, man, you are you good? You know, are you staying healthy? I've always been that way cuz the way I look at it, he's a he's a big brother. If not for him, it may not be for me. You know, he gave me some good advice early on. He always encouraged me that if I'm doing, if I have a movie that's overseas, get there. You know, show up in in those overseas markets and let them know that you're you're down, you know? And I took that to heart and and that helped me out in my career a great deal. And so I, you know, I look at it like that. I've never, I'll never say anything derogatory about him or whatever. So, I mean, I'm always, I just recently tried to reach out to him like a couple of days ago, just to check in, man, cuz I I.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  I, you know, I I I wish him the best and and, you know, I wanna I want him to like really, you know, start kicking ass again.

• 1:08:17Joe Rogan?

  I would love to see him return as Blade.

• 1:08:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would be cool.

• 1:08:21Joe Rogan?

  He could do it, too.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:23Joe Rogan?

  An older Blade.

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:25Joe Rogan?

  He could do it.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Joe Rogan?

  Fuck, he was good in the original Blade.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Joe Rogan?

  That's the opening scene. That's one of the best scenes in any action movie of all time, when it's that vampire party. And the the the sprinkler starts spraying blood.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Joe Rogan?

  And they're about to kill that dude. And all of a sudden Wesley shows up.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, it's what what really gets on my nerves is that, you know, he saved Marvel, man. That movie saved Marvel, you know that, right?

• 1:08:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, that movie was a huge hit.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  Even Stan Lee admits that. They were like in trouble until that movie.

• 1:08:57Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy? Cuz superhero movies are the biggest fucking movies in Hollywood right now. I mean, when they have a big budget movie superhero movies are like the only movie that you can throw hundreds of millions of dollars and be sure it's gonna kill it in the box office.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Joe Rogan?

  Whether it's the Avengers or Spider-Man or Superman or whoever the fuck it is. That's the only kind of movie that Hollywood's like, yeah, okay, we'll throw 500 million at this one.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, it's, it's, I'm not a big fan of those things. I, I, I know it's not, they, they didn't design it for people like me.

• 1:09:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  So, it's for, it's for the fanbase and to me, it's like, ugh, you know, I, they, they, they tend to meld into each other as far as I'm concerned.

• 1:09:41Joe Rogan?

  They do.

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:42Joe Rogan?

  They do. There's only so many times you could tell the stories, there's only so, you know.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:47Joe Rogan?

  But I, I still enjoy them. I still enjoy some of them. They're fun.

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I like when people are believable.

• 1:09:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  Believable.

• 1:09:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's nothing believable about those movies.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, like the actors that are like, you know, having some quirkiness and some, some, you know, edge to them, right? So, yeah, yeah, um, you know, maybe I'm being unfair because I had, really hadn't seen a lot. Maybe I owe it to myself to give some of it.

• 1:10:12Joe Rogan?

  Nah, I think you, you got it. It's, it's simple entertainment. It's a silly release and escape. That's all it is. It's not a great, there's no great films that are superhero films.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, because sometime I'm like, oh yeah, she's 90 pounds and she just threw a, okay.

• 1:10:30Joe Rogan?

  Like Charlie's Angels or something.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, oh, come on now. And it's like, anytime somebody lands in a three-point stance and then looks up, I'm like, I, I just changed the channel.

• 1:10:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  I'm just like, stop, just stop.

• 1:10:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:44Speaker 02

  But, you know, people love those things. I'm like, that's cool.

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  I don't know why they have so much appeal, especially in the American market.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:10:51Joe Rogan?

  People, that is one of the only movies that you can make that's guaranteed to be huge.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's McDonald's, man.

• 1:10:59Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  It's McDonald's, but I, I, I remember when.

• 1:11:02Joe Rogan?

  That's it.

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember when they, you know, you had, uh, what was that, like, uh, the 300? You know, that was like, nobody, nobody knew anybody.

• 1:11:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  But that was just such a breath of fresh air. Cause it looked like some badasses that were real.

• 1:11:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? I'd like to see more of that kind of a thing. Like, you know, not the star power thing, but just some motherfuckers that you believe.

• 1:11:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? That that would, you know, that would attract me.

• 1:11:27Joe Rogan?

  Also, the style of that movie was so unique. Cause it blended fantasy with reality.

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:32Joe Rogan?

  It blended like comic.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  And history too?

• 1:11:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. You know, I would. I got some, some things in, in the works.

• 1:11:40Joe Rogan?

  Do you?

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Joe Rogan?

  What are you working on?

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I, I've been blessed, man. I've got some really good movies coming out. And some things that I'm planning on doing. Uh, really, I'm getting to a place where I'm really shooting the things that I want. And I'm producing and all that stuff. So, you know, so, you know, I have movies that have their, have their body count, but also have a little bit of like something to say.

• 1:12:03Joe Rogan?

  You know what I miss?

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  What's that?

• 1:12:04Joe Rogan?

  Spawn.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:12:06Joe Rogan?

  Bro.

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  A lot of people, yeah.

• 1:12:07Joe Rogan?

  People forgot about Spawn. You don't hear about it anymore.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, man.

• 1:12:12Joe Rogan?

  That was fucking great.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had my, yeah, I, man, you didn't, most people didn't see the first adaptation of it. The first, uh, uh, well, I saw a cut of the movie before it. I mean, at this time, it had like seventy-one special effects in it. But Bob Shay at the time, that was running New Line, liked the, that version. He just gave the director a current watch to, to just add whatever he wanted. And the director was a special effects guy. So he started throwing special effects in there that was really killing the story.

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  Which kind of drove me up, up a wall. Cause then, like, you didn't even see why my character wanted to get back. You didn't even see the, the life that I wanted to get back to. Because there was so much special effects and even when I saw the final version, I'm like, what the hell is going on? People that knew Spawn, they were fine with it, cause they understood the character. But for me, it was like, the story got all convoluted. But like, you know, but I mean, people love it. It was a, I think it was a thing for its time. But unfortunately, I saw a version of it that made you care about it.

• 1:13:34Joe Rogan?

  I understand, but I cared about the one that I saw. And I felt like I don't understand how Spawn sort of escaped the zeitgeist. You don't ever hear about Spawn anymore. You know what I mean? Like, there's all these superhero films, all these different things, but Spawn was unique. And it was really good and dark and...

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I always said if they did another one, should do it just like the comic book. Make it hard R, or non-rated. Because, I mean, like, to do a Spawn PG, like, how we did, be PG-13? It's like, what do you want? You trying to go for breakfast cereal, like Spawnos or something like? Like, come on, man, let's go hard, like the cartoon, right?

• 1:14:15Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find a clip from Spawn. Because it's, I feel like no one talks about it anymore. It's kind of weird, man.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  They damn sure talked to me about it.

• 1:14:25Joe Rogan?

  Bro, it was good.

• 1:14:28Joe Rogan?

  What year was this?

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  97.

• 1:14:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Joe Rogan?

  They were fucking great, man.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  The Memories.

• 1:14:57Joe Rogan?

  Bro, that was a fucking great movie, man. New Line Cinema Presents. That was a great movie. How many did you guys do?

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  One.

• 1:15:05Joe Rogan?

  Just one?

• 1:15:06Speaker 02

  Just one.

• 1:15:06Joe Rogan?

  There was nothing else? Wasn't there something else, like a series?

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  It was a cartoon first.

• 1:15:10Joe Rogan?

  That's right.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, well, it was comic book, then it was a cartoon on HBO.

• 1:15:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  Keith David was the voice of Spawn on that one.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yep. And so, yeah.

• 1:15:25Joe Rogan?

  But that was a big hit. This episode is brought to you by the Apple Sports app. Guys, this is the ultimate best time of the year to be a sports fan. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer. The calendar is stacked, but it can also be hard to keep track of it all. And that is where the Apple Sports app comes into play. It is the fastest and easiest way to stay on top of all the action. With scores and play-by-play automatically showing up on your iPhone when the teams you follow are playing. That means you don't have to figure out when the games are on and how your team is doing, which is especially nice when you're following a bunch of teams and your friends are constantly blowing up the group chat.

• 1:16:09Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:53Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  I think so. It made its money back, yeah.

• 1:17:28Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I remember it was very popular, like everyone who was talking about, people got excited about it. Especially people like me that liked the comic books.

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:17:36Joe Rogan?

  They were very into it.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:38Joe Rogan?

  I was always surprised, but it just, it's weird to me that that, that even the comic book Spawn doesn't get brought up anymore.

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, I, every now and then, like when, like, I'm off doing a movie, whatever, I drive by a comic book stores, I, I go and I just start signing shit, right? The Spawn stuff, so there's still stuff there.

• 1:17:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, there's always giving me a hardcore fan base.

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so, I mean, you know, there's people, like, there's still hardcore about that, and then, uh, um, Tom McFarlane has, has talked about doing another Spawn for the last twenty-five years.

• 1:18:11Joe Rogan?

  It would be huge.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  But the thing, the weird thing is, is like, okay, I, I wish you all the best of luck, bro, but he, you created the comic book. When he's talking about doing another Spawn, I'm like, you haven't done a first one.

• 1:18:26Joe Rogan?

  Like the comic book?

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  No, he's, he's not a director, like, he's, it's just like Stan Lee hasn't directed a Marvel movie.

• 1:18:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  And, and Tom McFarlane is talking about doing another Spawn, but I'm like, well, that would be the first time a person that created a comic book directed and produced a movie that I know of, right? Cause even though he talks about he's going to do one, and he had this, uh, concept that he to- talked to me about, and then he said he wanted, you know, I guess he wanted to use Jamie Foxx, and he talked about this concept that Spawn would be, you wouldn't see him, and it's like, like Jaws, he would never be around, but just people would get fucked up, all of a sudden, there, you know, like a mist would come in, there, people are destroyed, I'm like, good luck with that.

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know, but like, but he's been talking about it for a while and people say, "Oh, man, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm sad that you're not the next spawn, that they're using Jamie." I'm like, "When is it going to happen?" They've been, he's been saying that for a long time, but I'm going, "Hey, maybe somebody is gonna give him that amount of money to do a movie when he's never directed anything before."

• 1:19:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  He hasn't directed anything before. He visited set a few times because he created a comic book. Directing a movie is something completely different, you know what I mean? So I'm like, "All power to you if that's happening," but it's like, I, I wonder why people believe it.

• 1:20:05Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, yeah, that's a lot to bite off, to do, especially a movie like that, which would probably be a large budget.

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, you know, but it's-

• 1:20:15Joe Rogan?

  And then you're gonna get the executives involved and they're gonna fuck with it, cuz they always have to have their say.

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, it's a, it's a miracle that a movie gets done the way it's intended, period.

• 1:20:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  I'm like, a lot of times when a movie works, I go, "How did some executive not fuck this movie up?"

• 1:20:33Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm always like-

• 1:20:35Joe Rogan?

  There's only a few guys that can get away with a movie where everybody just leaves them alone. There's a few Tarantino's out there where everybody just, "Let him go, just let him go."

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:44Joe Rogan?

  If you tried to make Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and you weren't a successful director, you were just some guy with an idea, someone would come along and fuck that up.

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:20:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Luckily, I'm, people are leaving me alone. I've been, I've been directing and, you know, doing my own thing, they go, "Okay, you got this." Okay, like I say, I give you the body count, but now if I could put stuff in it, you know?

• 1:21:04Joe Rogan?

  What is going on with Jamie Foxx doing Tyson? Cuz that's been rumored for a decade at least.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's another thing. It's like weird that Jamie Foxx wants to do a Tyson and a Spawn, but it's like, I don't, I don't take it personally. Very talented guy, but yeah, I think Jamie does a very good impression of Mike Tyson.

• 1:21:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you gotta gain like a hundred pounds.

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:28Joe Rogan?

  And then it's like. Jamie's gotta get, he's gotta pack on that meat at fifty.

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  But then, why? I just, I just sit there and I go, why? When Tyson's life itself has been very, you know, transparent.

• 1:21:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  And so, you can see the real guy in, in documentary form and everything else. What story do you have to tell?

• 1:21:51Joe Rogan?

  That's true.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  I'm not trying to be a hater, but I'm like, I just, I'm, I'm just curious.

• 1:21:55Joe Rogan?

  The only thing that would be interesting is seeing, like, Jamie do it. Seeing him pull, like, he pulled off Ray Charles, like, seeing him pull it off. That would, that would be the appeal of it, I think.

• 1:22:06Speaker 02

  Right, but yeah, I, in my personal opinion, I don't think that's enough. You gotta tell a story.

• 1:22:10Joe Rogan?

  Right, I know what you're saying.

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta, you gotta, it's gotta be some compelling story. Uh, I mean, hell, I mean, people saw Titanic, you know how it's gonna end. But you had to, he had to present a story.

• 1:22:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  There, you know.

• 1:22:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, Jamie is so versatile.

• 1:22:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:25Joe Rogan?

  You know, I mean, there's very few guys that can do all the different things that he can do. He could sing, he can act, he could do stand-up, and, and he could do all kinds of different characters. And, I mean, and he's so believable in so many different roles. You know what I watched the other day? Which is a fucking great movie that I forgot was so great, is Collateral.

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  Oh, hell, yeah.

• 1:22:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  No, no, when Jamie had Collateral and Ray, to me, like, there was, you, you couldn't have had a better year.

• 1:22:54Joe Rogan?

  Right, two completely different human beings.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely, absolutely. You know, so, I mean.

• 1:23:00Joe Rogan?

  And he became those people. He became Ray Charles.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:23:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:06Joe Rogan?

  And as good as he can sing, him singing as Ray Charles was insane.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  It's one of the best, I mean, performances ever.

• 1:23:13Joe Rogan?

  Ever.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:23:14Joe Rogan?

  Ever.

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:14Joe Rogan?

  But so is Collateral. Man, he, he really played that dude in Collateral, you believed it, and fucking Tom Cruise. Oh, my god.

• 1:23:23Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise really proved something to me in that damn movie. Cause I've never been, think, I would never think I would ever be scared of Tom freaking Cruise.

• 1:23:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:23:32Speaker 02

  And how convincing he was.

• 1:23:34Joe Rogan?

  He's a bad motherfucker.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:23:36Joe Rogan?

  He is a bad, he's crazy as batshit, but he's a bad motherfucker.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  He, he brought it in that movie.

• 1:23:42Joe Rogan?

  You have to be that crazy to do all the stunts that that guy does. I mean, he's sixty years old, he's jumping off buildings and shit, breaking his ankle.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, just like, just like Johnny Depp, like, I'm like, Johnny Depp, when he, he did, uh, Black Mass.

• 1:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  Like, I'm like, oh, you had that in you?

• 1:23:56Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 1:23:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  And just like with Tom Cruise, I'm like, him having that character in him?

• 1:24:02Joe Rogan?

  There's a scene in Collateral that tactical instructors play.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:07Joe Rogan?

  The scene when they're...

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  The double tap, like...

• 1:24:08Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  He, he whips it back, double tap, double tap.

• 1:24:11Joe Rogan?

  He knocks the guy's gun out of the way, pulls it out, da-da-da, da-da-da. And it's so fast and so smooth. See, if you can find that scene, Jamie. It's a scene where they're trying to take Tom Cruise's briefcase.

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Joe Rogan?

  And he's in an alleyway.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:24:25Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, I played that over and over myself.

• 1:24:28Joe Rogan?

  The amount of times that he must have drilled that to get that, unholster the gun, pull it out, shoot him, shoot the other dude so smooth. And the way he did it, so professional. I mean, it looks like a legit hitman.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, that, that, that was, that, that, that character, I mean, from start to finish, like, to me, proved a lot.

• 1:24:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, he embodied that guy.

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  And, and you know, they...

• 1:25:02Speaker 07

  Is that my briefcase? Is your briefcase? Yeah, it is. Why, you want it back? What about your wallet?

• 1:25:11Speaker 07

  What else you got for me? Huh?

• 1:25:17Joe Rogan?

  Come on, son.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:28Speaker 02

  I actually visited that set when they were shooting that. No, not, not that scene, but it was another, it was another, um, uh, day. And it was, I remember it was weird because they were shooting something and they were shooting Tom, behind Tom Cruise's head. And they had eight camera angles, just behind his head.

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  I'm like, and I'm looking at the, the, you know, the video village where they made sure they had, they had a choice of whatever perfect thing that they want. They, it was the craziest thing. I'm like, and I guess Michael Mann, he's known for like shooting a lot. But it was like eight cameras that's just behind the dude.

• 1:26:16Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, this is a whole nother like level. Yeah, it was crazy.

• 1:26:22Joe Rogan?

  It's a great fucking movie. That movie holds up.

• 1:26:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that, that's prime Jamie, man.

• 1:26:29Joe Rogan?

  Yep, yep. And the, the fact that he's got that much range, that he can do this nerdy dude who's terrified, doesn't know what the fuck is going on. He's just driving a car and all of a sudden he has his hitman with him, then he gets wrapped up in this whole thing.

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, but as a fan, I'm, I wanna see him do something else like that.

• 1:26:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like something like that requires what he can do.

• 1:26:51Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:51Speaker 02

  And there's a lot, you know, that's one of the things, there's a lot, not a lot of things out there sometimes. You know, so, you know, he's been doing things that I, I think show, you know, certain parts, but like to where he was going in Collateral and, and Ray, you know, it'd be nice to see that stuff again.

• 1:27:09Joe Rogan?

  It's gotta be hard to find those roles, right? And when you find those roles, there's probably like six or seven A-list dudes that they have like on a, a board somewhere and they're trying to figure out who's the guy for this.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I believe.

• 1:27:25Joe Rogan?

  Who's gonna sell the most.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  I believe you gotta create your own stuff, man. Uh, put it this way, nobody was gonna write Black Dynamite.

• 1:27:32Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:27:33Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 1:27:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:27:34Speaker 02

  I had, you know, my thing is largely creating my own lane.

• 1:27:37Joe Rogan?

  That was a fun movie, by the way.

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks, man.

• 1:27:39Joe Rogan?

  Really fun.

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. So, yeah, man, so I, I, luckily like I, I enjoyed writing. I've, I was always looked at everything from, I was always fascinated about this industry. And I sold a lot of things as a writer, separate from the acting thing. And so, you know, just putting it all together is something that's like I really enjoy doing.

• 1:28:03Joe Rogan?

  How do you dedicate your time when you're writing? Do you, do you, do you just like have an idea and say, okay, for the next X weeks, I'm gonna sit down and dedicate myself to this?

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  Dude, it's all different. A lot of times I will see the entire movie. Like when I did Black Dynamite, dude, I was, I was in China getting, going to set and I was in, uh, in Shanghai. And I was listening to James Brown's Superbad. And I just started thinking about, I'm goof, I'm laughing, I'm in the back of this car and there's a driver wondering what the hell is going on with me. I'm seeing the whole goddamn movie. In- including a nunchuck fight scene with, with Richard Nixon. And, and, and I'm, I'm laughing.

• 1:28:48Speaker 02

  And, you know, I started jotting stuff down because I was, it occurred to me, man, like, I was like, I mean, one day I was thinking like, wow, man, like, growing up, we had Shaft and, well, yeah, we had, uh, Superfly and the Mac and, and all that, posters like that that we idolized, and I'm going, those were pimps. There was something wrong with my childhood. Why am I? I'm like, what, the Mac? Like, that's a hero? And so it made me really think about it. And I'm like, and I'm looking at these movies. And like Ja- Jim Brown and Fred Williamson are like killing like 60 people and it's okay.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  Everybody's like this, they have a club and then they got all these women and all this. And I'm like, this is actually hilarious. So I do a movie that depicted it exactly like it is. Thinking about this, one of the be- biggest movies of that time was Three the Hard Way. I don't know if you remember that movie. Jim Brown, Fred Williamson and Jim Kelly.

• 1:29:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. I forgot about Jim Kelly.

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  Three the Hard Way. What was it about? It had the three predominant black exploitation stars, right? And the movie was about an evil Dr. Feather. Who had these liters of liquid. That he was gonna put in the water systems of LA, Chicago and New York. That were gonna kill all the black people.

• 1:30:18Speaker 02

  It's not a comedy.

• 1:30:19Joe Rogan?

  That's the movie?

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  It's not a comedy. It was gonna, it was gonna give sickle cell anemia to all the black people. Now, the, the, the conspiratorial thi- I've been a black man for a long time. And it is really funny because in the community, conspiracy is a big thing, right? So it, like, that whole conspiratorial thing, oh, they trying to get you, that kind of a thing. It really, it, it's engine was that, that paranoia, that this liter of liquid was going to kill black people.

• 1:30:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, there was so much evidence that those conspiracies were real, like the Tuskegee.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  But, of course, that, that's, that's something that's like, it's, it's on its feet, though, but

• 1:31:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  Come on, a leader, something this big, in the water systems, that was gonna kill all the black people. And that's not a comedy. That was a serious movie. But when you look at it, that's hilarious. It's absolutely hilarious to think that you can do a movie about that. So to do a movie, I thought, that really, really talked about that time period. Where it was kind of this overcorrection, because, you know, you had, in the sixties, there were like, you know, butlers and maids and all that kind of stuff. But now, you had these super overcorrected badasses that could just do anything, right?

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  And I thought it was hilarious to look at it and treat it as if it were like, back in that day, like, like a lost movie. Actually, Tarantino was somebody I was talking to about that whole thing. Uh, when I was putting a, a Black Dynamite together.

• 1:32:03Joe Rogan?

  Mmm.

• 1:32:04Speaker 02

  And he had certain ideas, but, you know, I kind of went my own direction with it. Well, yeah, man, so, yeah, things like that, like, you know, I- I was, I've gotten to a place where I'm, you know, putting these things together that really interest me and I'm finding that there's an audience that likes it as well. But yeah, man, so, uh, you know, i- it, it just occurred to me that it was bizarre.

• 1:32:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, I mean, you know.

• 1:32:30Joe Rogan?

  So for that movie, that movie just came to you?

• 1:32:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:33Joe Rogan?

  But.

• 1:32:34Speaker 02

  It came to me just like, the whole movie came to me in a ride to set.

• 1:32:39Joe Rogan?

  Is that n- normal for ideas? Or do you sometimes sit down and say like, I wanna write an idea about blank?

• 1:32:46Speaker 02

  Sometimes, sometimes, like, I have a movie that, the, the next movie I'm gonna do is a, a, a sequel to a movie I did called As Good As Dead, right? Uh, and it became, um, Samuel Goldwyn's, one of their most successful movies. I, I, I wrote the idea. It was based off my brother. My brother, he, he went from Florida into Mexico and started a family. He just like fell in love with Mexico. And I kinda based my, my character on him. And he's basically a cop that's like hiding out in, in Mexico and, you know, trying to avoid uh, this, you know, syndicate or whatever that's trying to kill him. But, um, that movie just came to me.

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  I, I wrote it. We were in production like two months later. And we actually got the movie done within a year and it was.

• 1:33:39Joe Rogan?

  How did you get it made so quick?

• 1:33:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they, they responded to the script and it was kinda like a grown up uh, karate kid in a way. So, my character, you don't know what, what's this black dude doing, working construction in Mexico? And he's got, you know, he's got his Wing Chun dummy, he's training in his backyard and it's a kid who's trying to avoid the gangs that he befriends, that he's, he teaches this unique kinda martial art. And so, one thing leading to another, this kid gets good at it and they trace the style back to my character. And then, you know, it, it, then the, the bad guys are trying to kill me and I have to fight back. So what we're doing, um, we're about to do a sequel. I start that in a couple of weeks, actually. So I wrote that one.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  Um, but yeah, so, uh, I, I feel like, I don't know, I, I'm, I'm still a fan of movies. I, I don't. I won't write something I wouldn't want to see. And I've seen a lot, you know, I think I understand this industry. I understand there's a lot of stories that that I think could be told with with fresh ways. And with the action and martial arts that could be new and exciting. Like I'm I'm getting to a place where I'm trying to make fight scenes look very real. Like including choreographing mistakes.

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, I think people have become so much more sophisticated watching UFC fights and all that type of stuff. I think you gotta raise the bar to make something look real. And there's a lot of the stuff that's in the, you know, the superhero movies and whatever that you just kind of go, okay. You're seeing choreography for choreography's sake.

• 1:35:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  And you're not invested because you don't feel like you're looking at a real fight. And so I like to kind of, you know, use my platform to step that up a bit.

• 1:35:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's hard, especially as a person who is a martial artist to watch fight scenes and go, you have to kind of suspend disbelief and go, all right.

• 1:35:46Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, you kind of like, you know, it's weird, but you know, kind of full circle. It's kind of going back to the way Bruce Lee did stuff.

• 1:35:52Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  And he's a little faster than the other person. He has a little bit more technique. And in, you know, and if you imagine, like, even if I imagine you in a real fight, your technique's not going nowhere. And other people are not going to have that same technique. You'll be, you know, you beat somebody to the punch, you do things that would logically give you the edge. That's what you shoot. You know what I mean?

• 1:36:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:36:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's it's not like you gotta do a lot of camera tricks. If you're moving faster and stronger than another another person, well, there it is. There it is. So luckily, you know, I mean, I can put things on screen that kind of resemble what things might look like, you know, and you get the benefit of the doubt because, you know, you're you're in a heroic position.

• 1:36:43Joe Rogan?

  This is very hard to do that. It's very hard to make it look real. That's there's a real art to that.

• 1:36:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, but like like with the movie that you turned down, Blood and Bone.

• 1:36:54Joe Rogan?

  I turned down John Wick four too, though.

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:36:57Joe Rogan?

  I turned down a lot of movies.

• 1:36:58Speaker 02

  You do. You did. You did the right thing because what you're doing, you could not, you know, this could not be more, you know, up your alley doing the things that you're doing. But like.

• 1:37:07Joe Rogan?

  John Wick was hard. I'm a giant John Wick fan.

• 1:37:10Speaker 02

  Are you?

• 1:37:10Joe Rogan?

  Especially John Wick one. And eventually, obviously.

• 1:37:13Speaker 02

  There's gonna be a John Wick seven, so you can decide to do it if you want to.

• 1:37:16Joe Rogan?

  They got kinda crazy. They're over the top now, but even John Wick one was totally unrealistic.

• 1:37:22Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:37:23Joe Rogan?

  Totally unreal, but so fun.

• 1:37:25Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:37:25Joe Rogan?

  I fucking love those movies.

• 1:37:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I got something that's kinda in that vein that I just finished. There's a lot of body count, but a lot of CQB. I've been, I've been studying that for a while. A lot, a lot of like.

• 1:37:37Joe Rogan?

  What is CQB?

• 1:37:38Speaker 02

  Oh, close quarter combat.

• 1:37:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:37:40Speaker 02

  Of course, close quarter battle. Um, but, um, you know, I've been doing like, you know, uh, a lot of like tactical training. And kinda getting myself, I may, I may compete at, at some point.

• 1:37:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I've, I'm pretty into it.

• 1:37:58Joe Rogan?

  Where do you train at?

• 1:37:59Speaker 02

  Well, a lot of places. I, I train with a guy named Tyler Gray. He's Delta Force. I'm not, I have a lot of friends who are like, you know, special force guys.

• 1:38:09Joe Rogan?

  You ever go to Taran Tactical?

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  Oh, of course, yeah. Yeah, I go to Taran quite a bit.

• 1:38:15Joe Rogan?

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• 1:39:00Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're. You're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, JoeRogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace.com/Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That guy's the best.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, he's, he's a man, he's amazing.

• 1:39:41Joe Rogan?

  You want to talk about someone who's very technical?

• 1:39:43Speaker 02

  Oh my God, it's just, he shoots from the hip like better than anybody using a laser.

• 1:39:50Joe Rogan?

  No, he's preposterous.

• 1:39:52Speaker 02

  It's unreal.

• 1:39:53Joe Rogan?

  Always iron sights.

• 1:39:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Joe Rogan?

  You know, he doesn't, I mean, he uses red dots, but you know, he prefers iron sights. He's like, they never fail, they never go wrong.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:01Joe Rogan?

  And he's so crazy accurate. It's wild to watch.

• 1:40:04Speaker 02

  And when you think about like, how long, how fast could you just take out everybody in this damn room? It's kind of.

• 1:40:10Joe Rogan?

  It's kind of spooky.

• 1:40:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is spooky.

• 1:40:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, it's also, he's so calm about it too.

• 1:40:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:16Joe Rogan?

  It's weird, like, almost like autistic, like weird, just fucking Rain Man-ish.

• 1:40:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, what the fuck? When you watch him do it, like, many times I've gone to his range and trained, and then, you know, people will goad him into it, like, do a, do a run, like, do this. And he's like, okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, and then I'm gonna pull this out right here.

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's crazy.

• 1:40:41Joe Rogan?

  You're like, what the fuck did I just watch? That's crazy.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  And then you see how many times he's won the championship?

• 1:40:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, ridiculous.

• 1:40:47Speaker 02

  And like, there's only a few people that won consecutive years. And he's got like, seven years in a row and chunk, just chunks of, I'm like, this is crazy.

• 1:40:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's a very unique talent.

• 1:40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:59Joe Rogan?

  Very unique talent.

• 1:41:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, my buddy, my, you know, like Tyler Gray, he just, he, he's been Delta, he's been, uh, he's been decorating, he's, oh my God, his place in, in Vegas, he's, he creates guns and he's got like more in his. Arsenal than every gun store you can imagine. But like he's like, he's something else, like he, one of the most mellow people you ever wanna meet in your life. And he's, he's been the guy, uh, been the consultant and director on, on Navy SEALs for years and, you know, but I got a lot, a lot of friends doing that. So my, my brother, he just, he just, uh, retired from Secret Service.

• 1:41:43Speaker 02

  And, you know, you know Danny, Danny Hester?

• 1:41:46Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:41:46Speaker 02

  Uh, he was a former, um, Mr. Olympia, uh, classic physique. But he's gotten into, you know, I mean, I shoot with these guys all the time and, and actually a flex wheeler. You know, a lot, a lot of the guys are, you know, into the gun stuff, you know, so we, we go set up stuff and, you know.

• 1:42:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, once you start training, you realize like how difficult it is and how long the learning curve is.

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:42:12Joe Rogan?

  Cause you think, oh, you point, you pull the trigger, what's the big deal?

• 1:42:15Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:42:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, then you, you get into it and then you see someone like Taran or someone who's competing and you go, oh, well, there's, this is just like everything else, just like karate, like jujitsu, like there's levels.

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:42:28Joe Rogan?

  Levels and levels and levels.

• 1:42:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:30Joe Rogan?

  And you see people competing and you go, oh, wow.

• 1:42:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:33Joe Rogan?

  I'd like to do that someday.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. You, you, you're a great place for it.

• 1:42:37Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah. Texas is a great place for it.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:42:40Joe Rogan?

  There's a staccato range that we go to sometimes. It's awesome. They have all these different setups out there. They have this old west town.

• 1:42:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:42:46Joe Rogan?

  With all these different like targets set up and you run from doorway to doorway.

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:42:50Joe Rogan?

  It's pretty badass.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. John Jones, I see is doing quite a bit of that.

• 1:42:54Joe Rogan?

  John Jones is a fucking scary human being.

• 1:42:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:57Joe Rogan?

  And if you get past him, he's got his fucking dog, Dutch.

• 1:43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:00Joe Rogan?

  Which is, you know, he brings a Belgian Malmo everywhere he goes.

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I know, um, my, my good friend, you know, Josh Barnett, he's, he's at Taran's a lot too.

• 1:43:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. He's another scary human being.

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:13Joe Rogan?

  And a very analytical, intelligent.

• 1:43:14Speaker 02

  One of the most.

• 1:43:15Joe Rogan?

  Very well read.

• 1:43:16Speaker 02

  He is like Jeopardy smart. He's like ridiculous. You can't, you, there's not many things that he doesn't know.

• 1:43:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:43:24Speaker 02

  He's amazing. I, I watch you guys, uh, you guys on this show. I was very flattered. He started, he mentioned, uh, out of nowhere, he started talking about, uh, how he, he was inspired by myself and my wife. And that, you know, it actually got me real choked up. Yeah, I was like, what?

• 1:43:43Joe Rogan?

  Josh is a great guy.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, incidentally, my wife is somebody that, I don't know. You, you met her a long time ago. You last saw her sliding down the Luxor.

• 1:43:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow, that's crazy.

• 1:43:58Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:43:59Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy on Fear Factor.

• 1:44:01Speaker 02

  On Fear Factor.

• 1:44:02Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:44:03Speaker 02

  Yep, she was sliding down the Luxor when you last saw her.

• 1:44:05Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:44:06Speaker 02

  She slid right into my, my arms.

• 1:44:10Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've been, we've done our sixth movie together.

• 1:44:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:44:15Speaker 02

  So we've been, you know, we got two, two, our teenagers are, we got one less, well, we got two left in the house. Going to college now, so you know, we're about to be empty nesters. Yeah, man. So, yeah, it's wild how these things kind of connect.

• 1:44:32Joe Rogan?

  It is wild.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Joe Rogan?

  It is wild, yeah.

• 1:44:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:35Joe Rogan?

  Josh is one of the, he's like one of the best examples to me of when people think of a martial artist or think of a cage fighter, former UFC heavyweight champion. And you think of a guy like, oh, probably some brute, some dude. Have a conversation with him.

• 1:44:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:44:51Joe Rogan?

  And you realize the depth of his intellect and the depth of his knowledge, like how much he knows about Nietzsche. He can quote Nietzsche.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  Like, he's so well read, he makes his own whiskey.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, he's a very interesting guy.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  Man, what a Renaissance guy, man.

• 1:45:07Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, a real Renaissance guy.

• 1:45:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, we usually, we have the same birthday, so sometimes we throw parties together.

• 1:45:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, when he's, when he's in town, he's always in Japan and he's all over the place, man. He's like, he's an amazing human being.

• 1:45:20Joe Rogan?

  He really is, yeah, yeah. And again, one of the best examples, like when people have a stereotype of what they think a cage fighter is.

• 1:45:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:28Joe Rogan?

  And Josh was the youngest ever UFC heavyweight champion.

• 1:45:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and man, that's probably, like, I've trained more with him than so many people, like, you know, and it's just, it's just, what a great friendship and what a, what a inspirational thinking person. You know, and, you know, so, and you know, he did Never Back Down. Three with me. We we shot that in Thailand.

• 1:45:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh wow.

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:57Joe Rogan?

  What's it like training in Thailand? That's gotta be fun.

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  Oh man, uh, kinda hot.

• 1:46:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but the motherland of Muay Thai.

• 1:46:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, again, like with every style, there's it's it's strengths and it's weaknesses. You know, a lot of a lot of them, you know, a lot of things around, you know, they go around and not straight.

• 1:46:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  Straight, you know, of course, the quickest, you know, distance between two points is a straight line. So it's not a whole lot of, um, well, they could do with a lot more boxing technique and and uh, some of those things, but man, talk about toughness, that kind of a thing, but it's it's kind of a tragic like how they, they beat the shit out of themselves.

• 1:46:40Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:46:41Speaker 02

  By the time they're in their thirties, man, they're like.

• 1:46:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're busted up. Well, they start fighting when they're very, very young.

• 1:46:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:47Joe Rogan?

  But it's also led to them training so intelligently, you know, one of the things about Thai training, they don't spar like a lot of Americans do where they beat the fuck out of each other. They play spar.

• 1:46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:58Joe Rogan?

  And that play sparring allows them to not get beat up by the time they get into the ring on Saturday, because a lot of them are fighting every week.

• 1:47:05Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:47:06Joe Rogan?

  So they do touch sparring, you know, and a lot of people say, oh, you can't get good touch sparring, but you certainly can.

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:47:13Joe Rogan?

  Especially when you're fighting every weekend.

• 1:47:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:16Joe Rogan?

  And it's probably the best way to do it because you're you're, you know, just working on timing, pattern recognition, and just getting your just your reps in.

• 1:47:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, just like with Jiu Jitsu, of course, when you don't muscle things, when the technique, you let the technique do its its thing. That's so much better.

• 1:47:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you you you maintain so much better as well.

• 1:47:38Joe Rogan?

  Right, and I think one of the best examples of that is like Sanchai, because Sanchai is in his forties, and he's still fucking people up. I mean, it's crazy watching that guy fight, but you look at him, a very unassuming guy, you know, that's not ripped, you know, he's an older guy, but he's just, his timing and his smoothness and his, the way he moves, that's very playful, but he's just fucking people up.

• 1:48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Man, it makes me, I miss Thailand. I actually did my, we did our wedding ceremony in Thailand.

• 1:48:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know who was uh, who who uh, officiated part of it was Tony Ja.

• 1:48:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  Tony Jai did the Buddhist part of our wedding.

• 1:48:18Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 1:48:18Speaker 02

  He did the water blessing and he also sang at the wedding.

• 1:48:22Joe Rogan?

  Ah, that's cool.

• 1:48:23Speaker 02

  He's like.

• 1:48:24Joe Rogan?

  Om Bak.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:48:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:26Speaker 02

  One of the greatest martial artists ever.

• 1:48:29Joe Rogan?

  What a great movie that was.

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:31Joe Rogan?

  For martial arts technique? That was like one of the first times like real true Muay Thai was exhibited in a film.

• 1:48:36Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:48:37Joe Rogan?

  Super high level.

• 1:48:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and Tony just, my god, like he would do these incredible feats in front of you. Just unbelievable. He could do a spin, he would do a somersault, hit you in the shoulder and just tap you like that with your foot, with his foot. Just he had that much control. It's unbelievable.

• 1:48:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was sick recently, but he's, I think he's overcoming, I think it was, I think it was a C word, man.

• 1:49:06Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:49:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I haven't talked to him in a minute, but I just found out about it like about, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, he was, I knew he got thinner, but I'm hoping that he's, he's better now.

• 1:49:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's a legend.

• 1:49:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's something else.

• 1:49:21Joe Rogan?

  It's so fascinating to me how different parts of the world develop a different style of martial arts. In Thailand in particular, because of the fact that there was so much gambling and there were so many fights, that they developed this very heavy leg kick, clinch, elbow, knee style.

• 1:49:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:39Joe Rogan?

  It was just very different than a lot of the other styles.

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:42Joe Rogan?

  You know, and for a long time was really dominating in kickboxing. But then you're starting to see other styles, like particularly a lot of Kyokushin guys now.

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:52Joe Rogan?

  Specifically out of Japan. Have you ever seen this kid, Yukioza?

• 1:49:57Speaker 02

  Is he Kyokushin?

• 1:49:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Kyokushin guy out of Japan who's dominating people.

• 1:50:01Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 1:50:02Joe Rogan?

  He fights very different, man. He's fucking up a lot of Thai guys with calf kicks.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 1:50:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, dude.

• 1:50:09Speaker 02

  No, I hadn't heard of, I just officiated a Kyokushin tournament yesterday, well, it was Sunday. Was that two days ago?

• 1:50:17Joe Rogan?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm still connected in the Kiyoksha. I've been doing that, you know.

• 1:50:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  Since I was a kid.

• 1:50:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, you did the whole thing, like, we have to fight like a hundred guys in a day. You did all that shit, right?

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  I've done a thirty man. I haven't done a hundred.

• 1:50:31Joe Rogan?

  I'm not exaggerating, but it's like a lot of people.

• 1:50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, which is the toughest. Honestly, it's a, I, I, I love it. It was the toughest thing I'd ever, I ever had to really face. Because you come to a point where you wanna give up and you have to just, you know, kind of walk the burning sands.

• 1:50:50Joe Rogan?

  What is it like walking the next day?

• 1:50:53Speaker 02

  Man, I had, I mean, I remember the first time I did a ten man and I had several knees on my legs, put it that way. So, because they, they destroy your legs so bad.

• 1:51:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:04Speaker 02

  Right? I did a twenty man one other time and made the mistake of, uh, having a, um, I had like a, a energy drink beforehand, which is stupid because now my heart is racing higher than normal and so it made it even harder. But somewhere around, like inevitably, you get to a place where I remember the twelfth guy, I'm like, "What the fuck are you doing? Why are you here?" You know, but you had to dig deep.

• 1:51:31Joe Rogan?

  And you got eighteen more to go.

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, man, but honestly.

• 1:51:36Joe Rogan?

  Such a hard style.

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, but man, it's something about getting, you know, cause you're, you're gonna be faced with yourself. You're gonna be, you, you wanna quit and you have to just dig down and get through it. And there's nothing like it when you accomplish it. Uh, because you know where you can go. You know that most of the time you, you're, you tell yourself you're done. You're not. What a valuable lesson it is.

• 1:52:07Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  To know that about yourself.

• 1:52:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:10Speaker 02

  And you can't, there's no substitute for that. And it's just something that you just benefit. Uh, I remember the last time I did this, um, we had to train out in, um, in, uh, Banff, Canada. Because usually these things are in Japan and people from all over the style, they come and they train you, like, training eight hours a day. You got these little lunch breaks and I didn't think it through. I, I, I just, I think the last one was like about five, six years ago. I, you know, wanted to challenge myself. I want to do this, but I'm by myself. And most people come with family members and all that kind of stuff.

• 1:52:51Joe Rogan?

  So you're by yourself, you're a movie star.

• 1:52:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I have the target on my back, but it's like.

• 1:52:56Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:52:56Speaker 02

  Yep, and so, and so, and it's like, we'd have a training thing, and then you got a certain amount of time to go eat. But then people want to take pictures of me, and I'm the last guy to get into the, into the lunch thing. And then I was like, oh shit, I got ten minutes to eat and then I gotta get back in the next training session.

• 1:53:14Joe Rogan?

  And you have a full stomach.

• 1:53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then, then you got like, I mean, it kind of sucked, but I, I taught myself something. I said, you know, you could be three hours in, I tell myself, I just got here, I just got here. And I dig deeper and whatever. And in the last few days, you're just fighting down to the last person. And, you know, there's people that's like, you know, they got their, their eye on you, because like, you know, I've got the bullseye on me. But the great thing is, dude, like I say, I learned a lot. I'm, I'm doing footwork with Frankie for years. I'm a boxing technique. I've got, Benny Urquides, Bill Wallace was my instructor. I've got so many things in my arsenal.

• 1:53:59Speaker 02

  And to test myself, it's such a, it's such a great benefit to, to, you know. And it was weird because I was thinking like, am I insane? Because I had a movie that I was gonna be starting in, in, uh, like a week later. I could have just been messed up. I could have had a broken leg or whatever. A lot of times, you leave with a souvenir, they call it. Like, you know, when you train in Japan, a lot of the Japanese want to give you a souvenir. That means a broken bone. But I had to try to, you know, overcome that. So in life, it's, especially in this kind of coddled life I'm living, I don't get a chance to test myself that much, right?

• 1:54:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:43Speaker 02

  And, you know, yeah, I had to, you know, listen to my own complaints and, and shut the fuck up and get through it. Yeah, oh, it's not fair because everybody's taking pictures and you're doing this and, and I'm by myself. No, no, that's not, the point is, get through it, you know?

• 1:55:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:02Speaker 02

  And I'm so glad to do that. And I always like to, that's why I like to train with champions and, and stuff. Because, you know, that's. You you you want you want to get through things, it should be.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  You should be tested. I mean, as if I had a religion. A large part of it, if I was the head of my own religious cult, would be that men. Go through something. There's a rites of passage.

• 1:55:27Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:55:28Speaker 02

  You got to know how to protect yourself and your family and your loved ones. That to me is is paramount.

• 1:55:34Joe Rogan?

  You also have to know what's inside of you. Like, and the only way to find out is to test it.

• 1:55:40Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:55:40Joe Rogan?

  Because otherwise, you get these dudes that have their chest pumped out and they're talking loud. Why are they doing that? Because they want to scare people off.

• 1:55:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:55:48Joe Rogan?

  Because they don't know what they're capable of. They're terrified.

• 1:55:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you can't hide from yourself.

• 1:55:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:54Speaker 02

  And that's the thing. I'm not going to bullshit myself. I'd like. I want to know, you know, and and it's great. It's it's it's no, there's no substitute.

• 1:56:06Speaker 02

  Uh, for going through that. And that's the thing that I, that why I love fighters so much. You know, you're you're you're you're you're basically naked to the world.

• 1:56:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  Uh, you have to dig down. You have to overcome things.

• 1:56:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:21Speaker 02

  That's why I love them so much because they're. They're our gladiators. They, we we live vicariously through them. And that's why I'm a little dogged about actors. Re receiving those accolades when they haven't done it.

• 1:56:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:56:37Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Even myself included. I don't care if somebody says, oh, he's not a fighter. You know, he's an actor. Fine, you should think that way.

• 1:56:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:56:44Speaker 02

  But personally, it's it's something deeper for myself. And I, you know, one person I think I I identify with that is you, because I've seen you. I've seen you in the gyms back when it wasn't popular. And and we're doing it for reasons that are not, it has nothing to do with glory or, you know, ego or anything like that. It's just for self-improvement.

• 1:57:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  You know, and that's what it's about, man, because it's about overcoming obstacles. And your biggest obstacle in the world is yourself.

• 1:57:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. My instructor, when I was very young, told me that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential.

• 1:57:19Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:57:20Joe Rogan?

  It's so hard.

• 1:57:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:22Joe Rogan?

  And people need something hard.

• 1:57:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and what about Khabib's?

• 1:57:27Speaker 02

  Uh, what is, what did Khabib say, like, what he says about discipline?

• 1:57:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that, that rant?

• 1:57:32Speaker 02

  Man, I had to, oh, that.

• 1:57:34Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if that rant is real. Somebody told me that rant is AI.

• 1:57:38Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:57:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Is it AI? Damn it!

• 1:57:41Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:57:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, who cares?

• 1:57:42Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 1:57:43Joe Rogan?

  It's in Khabib's voice, and I bet Khabib would agree with every word it said.

• 1:57:46Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, you know.

• 1:57:48Joe Rogan?

  Find that rant, because let's pretend that it's not AI. Or it may be one of AI's greatest contributions to martial arts.

• 1:57:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:57:56Joe Rogan?

  Because becoming addicted to discipline.

• 1:57:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, every man addicted to something.

• 1:58:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Oh, it's such a great rant. Here it is. Give me this. Give me this. It's such a fucking great rant. Start from the beginning, too.

• 1:58:09Speaker 07

  Every man addicted to something. Some smoke, some drink, some chase girls, some waste time. But real man, he addicted to discipline. To early wakes, to prayer, to training, to silence. Discipline no need motivation. Discipline move without feeling. Discipline say, I go anyway, even when tired, even when lonely. Discipline is best addiction. You want strong life? Discipline build it. You want peace? Discipline protect it. You want respect? Discipline earn it. No shortcut, only work. Be man with control, not man with excuse. No crime, no blame. You want better life? Start with better habits. Discipline, every day, until discipline become you. Every.

• 1:58:53Joe Rogan?

  Fucking yeah.

• 1:58:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't give a damn if it's AI or whatever, but I'm like, well, kudos to the AI person that put that together.

• 1:59:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That's how he lives.

• 1:59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:03Joe Rogan?

  So even if it's AI, he would go, this is accurate. Well, I'll tell you what, man, that part of the world, Dagestan, you wanna talk about a hard part of the world? That is developing some of the baddest motherfuckers. Even in Muay Thai, there's this cat coming out of Muay Thai at a, at a Dagestan right now. Azadullah Iman Gazaliyev, who's like 22 years old, and he is fucking everybody up. A Dagestani Muay Thai fighter.

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:59:31Joe Rogan?

  Who has his own style, he's this tall, lanky dude, who is one of the most terrifying strikers alive right now. A lot of people think he's the best striker alive.

• 1:59:39Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:59:40Joe Rogan?

  I think he's 22. 22 or 23 years old, and he's just fucking everybody up. He fights for one FC. Give me a, a highlight reel of this cat.

• 1:59:53Speaker 07

  Kyler didn't pop up right away, so I just went with the first fight.

• 1:59:56Joe Rogan?

  That's it, best technical striker in the world, that's it, click on that, just give me some of this. Just start it from the beginning, this dude. That tall dude with the beard.

• 2:00:06Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:00:06Joe Rogan?

  Azadula Imangazaliev. Watch this motherfucker, what a style he has. I mean, it's just this long, tall, lanky dude, perfect timing and measurement. And he just starts piecing dudes up.

• 2:00:21Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:00:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, I don't think so, if he scooted ahead, I think he fucks this guy up pretty quick, I've seen this fight. This guy catches with one shot, but some dudes not so lucky.

• 2:00:36Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 2:00:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that was one shot, but it keeps going, and then give me the next fight.

• 2:00:42Joe Rogan?

  He just starts lighting guys on, including ties, and they, they don't know what the fuck is going on. Cause he fights different than them, I mean, he's a Muay Thai fighter.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  He's got that straight, you know, that, he's exploiting the fact that they, they got so much round technique.

• 2:00:58Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, a lot of front kicks up the middle, and especially to the face. But also his spinning attacks, he's got wicked spinning attacks, man. And also comes off angle a lot, his head's never on the center line, super fucking technical. But just lighting dudes on fire.

• 2:01:18Joe Rogan?

  And just a, a, a, just an attacker, always attacking. And has the benefit of that range, that long range.

• 2:01:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:28Joe Rogan?

  I mean.

• 2:01:29Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 2:01:30Joe Rogan?

  Dude is incredible, incredible, and again, 22 years old. Like, look at that, so he's combining like Taekwondo techniques, karate techniques, and precision Muay Thai.

• 2:01:46Joe Rogan?

  I mean, the problem with this, this, this, not this style, but this form is that a lot of people aren't seeing it. One FC is doing a really good job of highlighting a lot of like elite Muay Thai fighters. You know, they have Taowanchai over there and Sittichai and all, all these like high level guys. But in America, this, for whatever reason, has not caught on. And the only way this guy's gonna get the kind of attention that I think he deserves is if he gets into MMA.

• 2:02:13Speaker 02

  Boom!

• 2:02:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, axe kick, everything, spinning backfist, boom!

• 2:02:17Speaker 02

  His, his straight rights are no joke.

• 2:02:20Joe Rogan?

  He's a laser beam.

• 2:02:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:21Joe Rogan?

  He's so focused, he's so good, man, so good.

• 2:02:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so the Dagestanis are now entering into Muay Thai, which is a terrible sign for all these Muay Thai guys.

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 2:02:33Joe Rogan?

  Those are hard people.

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  Tough ass people, man.

• 2:02:36Joe Rogan?

  Hard people.

• 2:02:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:02:38Joe Rogan?

  Who start at a very young age, I mean, a very young age, like, and also Dagestanis now because of Khabib and Islam, they all know that this is the pathway to greatness.

• 2:02:48Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 2:02:49Joe Rogan?

  And so there's heroes, and there can be Ankaliyev, there's all these guys that have been world champions out of Dagestan now. So it's like, you're seeing all these guys come out of there and some of these young guys that are coming up are so good.

• 2:03:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:01Joe Rogan?

  They're so good, but this is fascinating to me that you take a guy who's adapted this Thai style, but then morphed it into something that's different.

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:03:10Joe Rogan?

  And again, like you were saying, a lot of straight techniques.

• 2:03:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03:13Joe Rogan?

  Especially when you're a tall guy like that for the weight class, because I think he fights at 145. And when you're that tall at 145 and you've got those straight shots down the middle.

• 2:03:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, like his right is just like, you can't really see it.

• 2:03:24Joe Rogan?

  Laser beam.

• 2:03:25Speaker 02

  You know, right directly at him.

• 2:03:26Joe Rogan?

  But it's also the hooks too, his hooks are coming around the guard.

• 2:03:30Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:03:30Joe Rogan?

  Like, everything is precise and his accuracy is spectacular.

• 2:03:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm a student, obviously, I, I, I, I watch every fight I can. I watch, I watch kickboxing, I watch Muay Thai, I watch Jiu-Jitsu matches, I watch it all. But I, I'm always fascinated by these cats that stand out, and this guy just stands out.

• 2:03:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's great when somebody knows. How to use their length like that.

• 2:03:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, Yuki Yozu, the Kyokushin guy that I was telling you, totally different. Well, this guy's doing a shelling up and getting in tight on guys and kicking the fuck out of their inner thigh, outer calf, lower, like, he's chopping at their legs. So even Thai guys don't know what to do because they're not used to guys kicking their calves like this guy.

• 2:04:17Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 2:04:18Joe Rogan?

  So he's inside going shin to shin, and you know as well as anybody Kyokushin guys have some of the most conditioned shins in the world.

• 2:04:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:24Joe Rogan?

  They're always battering shin to shin, and this dude is just getting in. And you see in the second round, a lot of these Thai guys like, oh, fuck, I can't walk. Like, I can't move right. My calves don't work anymore. So the calf kick, which is really kind of revolutionized MMA, it's changed MMA. Because one, two hard calf kicks, you're compromised, you're not moving right anymore, and you're not pivoting off that foot when you're punching, so your punching power is diminished. This Yuki Yozu guy is like putting it on Thai guys with it.

• 2:04:55Speaker 02

  That's something, I mean, especially for Kyokushin guy to, I mean, the knock with Kyokushin, I've been doing it ever since I was a kid, is just that not developing facial, you know.

• 2:05:05Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  Facial, you know, blocks.

• 2:05:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, this guy's incorporated Russian style boxing. He's got Russian style boxing with Kyokushin karate techniques.

• 2:05:17Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, with that, with the Russian style boxing, that, they're, they really kind of mastered the non-telegraph kind of.

• 2:05:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:25Speaker 02

  Because it looks like they're not even going fast.

• 2:05:27Joe Rogan?

  Yuki Yozu highlight reel. There's a bunch of fights with him and Thai guys. And, you know, the first round, Thai guys are doing their thing, and it looks, you know, like a normal fight, but Yuki Yozu just starts chopping at those calves, inside, and he's like, multiple kicks to the calf from in tight and close.

• 2:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's punishing.

• 2:05:48Joe Rogan?

  And you see guys like playing at like, go ahead, kick me, kick me, and then after a while they're like, fuck, don't kick me anymore.

• 2:05:54Joe Rogan?

  They're trying to get macho with them, pretending it's not working.

• 2:05:57Speaker 02

  But, yeah, like, what would it take to develop, like?

• 2:06:02Joe Rogan?

  This is Yuki Yozu.

• 2:06:04Speaker 02

  Just like, like, oh, your thighs.

• 2:06:07Joe Rogan?

  You see how he's like, he chop, he's chopping when he's getting tight. Look at this, always. Look at how, how much he's utilizing the, like, all the karate techniques, but also in tight just destroys guys' legs. But also spinning back kicks, all that other shit. But look at his boxing is excellent, too.

• 2:06:26Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 2:06:27Joe Rogan?

  A lot of Muay Thai stuff, dumping people, but look at that. He's constantly kicking the inside of the leg. When they're committing to kicks, he's taking their legs out. This dude, one of my favorite guys to watch right now. Like, look, that's a Thai guy, man. He's just destroying their legs, man.

• 2:06:43Speaker 02

  Man.

• 2:06:45Joe Rogan?

  An excellent movement.

• 2:06:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:47Joe Rogan?

  And he comes out of a, a very high-level gym in Japan that's produced a lot of really, Masasaki Nori, another guy who's like that, who's a very similar guy who beat Taowanchai recently. Like, these guys are just destroying people's legs. So they're utilizing a lot of the question mark kicks, a lot of the stuff that, that evolved in Kyokushin, but putting it into kickboxing. Also with the toughness that is in, you know, a, a lot of the Kyokushin fighters.

• 2:07:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I see, I see him slip into like a Superman.

• 2:07:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:22Speaker 02

  Everybody's gonna be susceptible for that. If you got a kick, a leg kick, that, that's, that's that legitimate.

• 2:07:28Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:07:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're gonna bite on that. He's gonna be open for them.

• 2:07:31Joe Rogan?

  And then he uses a Superman punch, yeah.

• 2:07:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and another very young guy. So there's these people that are exploiting, like, these holes in these styles. Because some of these Thai guys are so hard to beat. They have, by the time they, they're competing and they're 25 years old, they might have 150 fights. So much experience, but this cat's figuring them out, man. It's really interesting to watch, you know?

• 2:07:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I would love to see, I wish there was like some kind of governing body that would get it, all the, like, some, like, superstars, whatever, get this guy versus this guy from...

• 2:08:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, ONE is doing that a lot, but you know, ONE unfortunately is not that popular in America. What I love about ONE is they'll have grappling competitions, they'll have kickboxing, they'll have Muay Thai, and then they'll have MMA. They'll have them all combined on one card.

• 2:08:20Speaker 02

  ONE is the one with, that Michael Chivello is on, right?

• 2:08:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, he was on that. Michael Chivell's not with ONE anymore. Michael Chivell is one of the best commentators ever.

• 2:08:29Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:30Joe Rogan?

  He's excellent. Great guy, too.

• 2:08:31Speaker 02

  I'll be seeing, I'll probably be seeing him in another, like, three weeks.

• 2:08:36Joe Rogan?

  You going to Australia?

• 2:08:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, going to Australia.

• 2:08:37Joe Rogan?

  Nice.

• 2:08:39Speaker 02

  My wife and I, we're going, well, I, we did a tour. I, I do like seminars over there and, you know, meet and greets and stuff like that. We haven't done that in a while, but, yeah, we've got some, uh, really good, some good fighters out there.

• 2:08:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, John Wayne Parr.

• 2:08:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:54Joe Rogan?

  You know, some great fighters have come out of Australia.

• 2:08:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, yeah, we're gonna have some fun out there.

• 2:08:58Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 2:08:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're in New Zealand.

• 2:09:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, another, another, another hotbed.

• 2:09:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:09:03Joe Rogan?

  Another hotbed for fighters. Well, just warrior cultures, you know.

• 2:09:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

• 2:09:07Joe Rogan?

  Warrior history to those places.

• 2:09:09Speaker 02

  I've never met an Australian that I didn't like.

• 2:09:12Joe Rogan?

  I know, they're the nicest fucking people.

• 2:09:14Speaker 02

  They're so fucking cool, yeah.

• 2:09:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're the coolest people. They're friendly, easygoing.

• 2:09:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, you, you have rites of passage still. You know, places like that, you know, you, I mean, it's, that's one thing that is sad about United States. Like, we're not making men anymore.

• 2:09:30Joe Rogan?

  Not a lot of them.

• 2:09:31Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 2:09:32Joe Rogan?

  When they are, they stand out.

• 2:09:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, that's why it's like, a lot of times in these movies, if you have an alpha male, a lot of times, that alpha, that American alpha male is being played by an Australian or somebody from the...

• 2:09:44Joe Rogan?

  Chris Hemsworth.

• 2:09:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's like, it's very rarely, uh, an American. It's, we got so, it's like such a trip, man.

• 2:09:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, masculinity is demonized here for some strange reason, over the last couple of decades.

• 2:09:58Speaker 02

  Bro, I saw the beginning of a lot of it, cause, you know, like I say, I was a school teacher. And I was right on the forefront seeing, like, everybody gets a trophy, you know. These, these kids, you know, they're, you know, it's about their self-esteem and you gotta protect them. I'm like, come on. And, you know, taking away competition?

• 2:10:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:16Speaker 02

  That just, I saw the beginning of that shit. And this is so, so bad. Then, then these kids don't know how to deal with loss or

• 2:10:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:25Speaker 02

  Anything and then they end up shooting a classroom.

• 2:10:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:10:27Speaker 02

  You know, it's, it's, eh.

• 2:10:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, dealing with loss is one of the most important lessons you could ever learn. If you wanna get better, lose.

• 2:10:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:34Joe Rogan?

  Losing is the best medicine. Because you lose, you, I don't ever wanna feel that again. And then you start thinking about all the things that you cut corners on, all the things that you didn't do. What can I do differently to make sure that never happens again, that I never feel that feeling? Or you quit.

• 2:10:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:10:50Joe Rogan?

  Those are the two options.

• 2:10:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:51Joe Rogan?

  Either you get way better or you quit. But winning, sometimes, you don't learn. You know, you go, well, I'm doing the right thing. I'm winning. I'm getting better. I'm developing confidence. That's good, but man, sometimes a loss is the best medicine.

• 2:11:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, I, I realized something. When I was, uh, you know, I, I, I was, I was born with some gifts, okay? Uh, I did, one thing that got me into college is decathlon. I, at, at a, as a fluke, I jumped into a, a race against one of the, the fastest guys on the track team and beat him, right? And that was just a fluke. And the coach saw that. The track coach saw that and was like, "Oh, my God, you're fucking ru- running for the school!" And this, I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I was just like, I didn't have anybody, any kind of adult that took a liking to me like that. And the next thing you know, I'm on the track team. And I, and I started, I mean, I was really good.

• 2:11:49Speaker 02

  And then I wound up going to college because of that. And incidentally, that's the stuff that really kinda taught me, uh, to kinda, uh, evolve my martial arts. Because nowhere is there, um, a benefit of like, cutting off fractions of seconds in movement like track. Like, like when I'm doing a shot put. Well, a lot of times I was competing against people that were ginormous, and all they had to do is stick their arm out and their arc was gonna be better than mine. Well, I had to generate enough power to go at a forty-five degree angle.

• 2:12:31Speaker 02

  And in in inertia and all that to get past them. And with running, of course, if you shoot the gun off, ev- all your motion has to go forward. If you go backward, you're gonna be a step behind everybody. So as far as efficiency of motion, I, all the things I had to do with track, I started applying in in fighting. And that's what kinda gave me cheat codes into things to where being super efficient really helped, right? And so, one thing would like kinda help the other. But like, yeah, a a lot of, you know, my my my whole track thing

• 2:13:12Speaker 02

  was a great benefit, but I did learn that I was kinda in a way like the Bo Jacksons or the Herschel Walkers, I was gifted. And so, when I would fight, I was, you know, I was a big guy that was fast and it didn't, you know, that was kinda rare. So, fighting was easy to me. But I learned that when I was as the the celebrated fighter,

• 2:13:46Speaker 02

  that was less of a good martial artist because then I kinda would kinda flake off other things. Like I wasn't, I didn't try as hard as other people. And that's another thing, I don't know if Khabib really said, but it was a thing that he said about those gifted people, a lot of people who are gifted, were not the best fighters.

• 2:14:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that is a quote from him.

• 2:14:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And and I I took that, you know, that that same thing because I realized, dude, you're you're you're doing it wrong. You're, I mean, my philosophy was like, uh, I feel, I I adapted the philosophy of, okay, say, um, this kid Sean is a hundred and forty pounds and there's me. And it takes me a thousand kicks to become fatigued. And it takes him one hundred kicks to become fatigued. And he pushes to one hundred and twenty. And I pushed to one thousand and one. Who's the better martial artist? He is. Because he's pushed into his comfort zone. He's pushing himself further. What if he one day gets to a thousand?

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  For for him to go from a hundred to a thousand, that's going to be a quality nine hundred that I don't have. Me being the gifted one.

• 2:15:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:15:04Speaker 02

  I'm looking at it using the comparative method saying, well, you know. You know, I mean, at the end of the year, I used to kick a basketball rim. You know, I was I had that ability. But when I started thinking about, well, what I compare myself to other people, that was the wrong thing. So I said, no, I'm going to be like Sean, I want to train to my ability, not in comparison to someone else. Uh, and that really taught me something. As far as like, again, why I put myself through these things and the benefit of it. By really like when what the martial arts really teaches.

• 2:15:47Speaker 02

  Is, you know, and the fact that, yeah, I had these gifts. But if I if I use those gifts as a crutch, I'm limiting what I can be.

• 2:15:57Joe Rogan?

  Right, you're limiting your potential.

• 2:15:59Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:16:00Joe Rogan?

  And so. And oftentimes it's too easy for the gifted guys. And so they kind of slack off.

• 2:16:06Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, so, yeah, that that's that's and I realized that's what I was doing.

• 2:16:10Joe Rogan?

  They also are not as comfortable with struggle.

• 2:16:13Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:16:14Joe Rogan?

  And being comfortable with struggle is a very important part of growth.

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and yeah, it's it's it's a it's a mixed message because we start to. Uh, admire the the freak sometimes. Uh, we as as men, we celebrate the pugilist a lot. And that's kind of a thing that where came full circle to where, okay, yeah, I'm able to do these things. But is that really me? Is that is that the limit of what I can be? And by having someone else go, oh, yeah, you can do this or that. That's kind of a, that's not really the, the, the, the crux of it.

• 2:16:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:57Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 2:16:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:58Speaker 02

  And it's, and it's really about like, yeah, there's going to be people that's going to praise what you can do physically. But is that, but I realized there was a point where that was kind of retarding where, where I could be mentally and what I can really become.

• 2:17:17Joe Rogan?

  You also have a responsibility to those gifts.

• 2:17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:20Joe Rogan?

  Right? Because if you're gifted athletically, you have a responsibility of achieving the full potential because you've been given this thing.

• 2:17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:28Joe Rogan?

  By genetics, by life, by God, this thing where you are faster, you move quicker, you have more explosive power. But are you going to harness that gift and allow it to reach its full potential?

• 2:17:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:17:40Joe Rogan?

  And when you do that, then you get a Mike Tyson. When you do that, then you get a Michael Jordan. You do that, then you get an elite of the elite. You get what David Goggins always like to call uncommon amongst uncommon men.

• 2:17:52Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:17:53Joe Rogan?

  And that's, that's the real hard thing to do. Because so many of these like really gifted guys in the gym, they always kind of peter off and disappear. And, and when they're in a fight where they fight another gifted guy that maybe trained a little harder than them, and maybe he's got a little bit more experience, they realize like, man, I don't want to struggle like that.

• 2:18:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:18:11Joe Rogan?

  I don't like that. I don't like that feeling. I like beating up guys in the gym that are below me.

• 2:18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then you, you, you gotta deal with that person in the mirror.

• 2:18:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:20Speaker 02

  And that's not, yeah.

• 2:18:21Joe Rogan?

  It's hard for guys when they're the hammer their whole life and then one day they're the nail.

• 2:18:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:25Joe Rogan?

  And you see guys that are like really elite, that are dominating, and then one day they get fucked up and then you never see them again.

• 2:18:32Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:18:32Joe Rogan?

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• 2:20:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and those are the true heroes to me.

• 2:20:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:20:57Speaker 02

  You know, there's people I don't want, you know, sometimes you get in trouble pointing out people like, like I don't want to say somebody like Izzy or whatever, but, but like you see the, the, the people who are used to. Having that ability over other people and when it gets hard.

• 2:21:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:16Speaker 02

  Right, and then it's like, um, even sometimes there's a, there's a talk about even Tyson. And, and as just people, uh, as just, um, spectators. When you go, oh, man, there was this guy, this guy's so gifted now.

• 2:21:32Speaker 02

  Uh, some of the knock has been that when it became hard. You hadn't seen him dig down and overcome.

• 2:21:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:42Speaker 02

  That thing.

• 2:21:43Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:21:43Speaker 02

  You know, cause a lot of times when it got hard, it was like he just, you know, kind of tapped out.

• 2:21:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:50Speaker 02

  And so that's something that, you know, not to disparage him, but it just as, you know, people are looking at life. We, we look at, you know, we, we look at those things and we can take a lot of meaning from that. And, and apply that and say, oh, wow, is, I mean, if that's on him to, to say, oh, was that the case? Or, you know, or.

• 2:22:10Joe Rogan?

  I think.

• 2:22:10Speaker 02

  Or is it, is something that, um, I don't know.

• 2:22:13Joe Rogan?

  With, I think with Mike, it's a very sp- special case because I think he had the elite coaching in the beginning with Cus Damato and, and training. And then when Cus died, he was kind of left with all this amazing ability that he had developed when he was young. But not with the elite coaching, like, so if Mike had left when Cus Damato died. If he had then went to Emmanuel Stewart, or if the, then, you know what I'm saying? If they had then went to an elite boxing coach and had someone analyze his stuff and someone he really respected.

• 2:22:50Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely.

• 2:22:51Joe Rogan?

  That he could still maintain that same level of discipline when he was the 21 year old dominating the world.

• 2:22:57Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, but he had so much pressure on him.

• 2:22:59Joe Rogan?

  So much.

• 2:23:00Speaker 02

  Because, you know, I had to play him, so I had to study everything he did. And it's interesting because, oh, my God, like, I always viewed him as somebody who was always looking for a father figure.

• 2:23:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:23:11Speaker 02

  And I would study him and, you know, with Cus Damato, he would dress like Cus Damato. He's a guy, a young black guy from Brooklyn with suspenders.

• 2:23:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:23:23Speaker 02

  You know, in a, in a cabbie hat, like, you know.

• 2:23:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  And then when Kusama was gone, he was around Kevin Rooney and Kevin Rooney had this really fast way of talking and it seemed like he adapted that and when he was with, uh, with, um, uh.

• 2:23:40Joe Rogan?

  Wall wall.

• 2:23:42Speaker 02

  No, no, um, uh, shoot, why, why am I blanking? The, the other train, the other manager.

• 2:23:49Joe Rogan?

  Jim Jacobs?

• 2:23:50Speaker 02

  Jim Jacobs, you know, Jim Jacobs was married. He had, and he, I think marriage became important to him at that point because he was really under the, you know, the umbrella of Jim Jacobs. And then when he was with.

• 2:24:02Joe Rogan?

  Robin Givens?

• 2:24:03Speaker 02

  With a, what, with, um, uh, uh, Don King.

• 2:24:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:24:09Speaker 02

  The N words, the every third word out of his mouth, very much like Don King. He goes to prison, he's got two father figures on him, Mao Zedong and, and he's got, uh, you know, Arthur Ashe on another shoulder. And I've, and, and I would just notice that, like, even speech patterns would change, you know, and I, I looked at him as, wow, here's a, a guy that I felt like I identified with a great deal because coming from the same kind of, kind of place.

• 2:24:38Speaker 02

  But yeah, it's, it's interesting because I, I think a lot of people don't know how much struggle he had to deal with because the people think that Kevin Rooney was kind of a savior in that situation when he wasn't. Kevin Rooney explained to me directly that he, he says, if you ever see Mike, please, uh, uh, please, um, apologize for me because when, I mean, when Mike was, was married to Robin Givens, he didn't want to do this interview. And then turned around, Kevin Rooney did the interview and Kevin Rooney was like, I, I really messed up when I did that. And Kevin Rooney even told me that when, at the Spinks fight alone, uh, Kevin made

• 2:25:22Speaker 02

  like over a million dollars. He left, he left that casino owing. Mike had to bail, bail him out like so many times. And so people thought, oh, Kevin Rooney is in control. No, Mike was.

• 2:25:38Speaker 02

  I mean, he had so much pressure on him. And I, I think with, um, with, uh, Don King trying to hire Mike's cohorts to, to help out. He gonna hang out with him anyway. To try to just do, he had so much, uh, this dude had so much pressure on him. It's, it's unbelievable.

• 2:25:56Joe Rogan?

  And Don King definitely took advantage of that.

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, yeah, I, I, I believe so. Yeah. You know, cause I, I knew Don from, cause I was always in the fight camps with, with, um, Frankie Lyles. In fact, that's how I got to first meet Mike Tyson. When Mike was in prison, Frankie put Mike and I on the phone together. And so I would, you know, do my little, uh, kinda interviewing of Mike while he was, while I was in prison. Uh, cause I was gonna do, I was gonna be playing him, so I wanted the whole story.

• 2:26:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:26:29Speaker 02

  And, you know, and I went to Catskills on my own and knocked on that door and, and spent time with the people he grew up with in that, that house.

• 2:26:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:26:38Speaker 02

  You know, so I learned a lot. There's a lot that, you know, the public doesn't know. Uh, and that I think he was concerned about, you know, coming out. And, you know, it didn't. And, uh, and so it, it, it, it was, it was really interesting. I just got, I got, I was front and center on how much pressure this guy had to deal with. He had to kinda develop with the whole world looking over his shoulder.

• 2:27:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:02Joe Rogan?

  And he was 20.

• 2:27:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:27:05Joe Rogan?

  Which is crazy. Youngest ever heavyweight champion in the world. He's went from being a 13-year-old kid with no family to being adopted by this guy who's not just training him, but also hypnotizing him.

• 2:27:16Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:27:17Joe Rogan?

  And then he's got Jim Jacobs who exposes him to this library of all the greatest fighters of all time. He's watching video footage of it.

• 2:27:25Speaker 02

  Bill Katton, yeah.

• 2:27:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:26Speaker 02

  Bill Katton and Jim, yeah.

• 2:27:28Joe Rogan?

  It's an extraordinary story because it's like, unlike anyone else's. Like the environment that he was exposed to and the way it- Produced this guy who was unlike any heavyweight before. I mean, in his prime, I always point to the Marvus Frazier fight. I always tell people, you wanna see like the scariest motherfucker that ever stepped into the ring. Mike Tyson versus Marvus Frazier. He was just undeniable, just undeniable. But that pressure, the kind of pressure that no one could explain what that's like. There's no internet back then, so there's not as many famous people. So like, who's gonna, who's he gonna relate to? Who's, who's gonna tell him what this is like? Who's gonna, there's no one like him.

• 2:28:12Joe Rogan?

  You had Muhammad Ali, you had a few other guys that could maybe tell him what it was like. But for the most part, he's not, he's got no roadmap. And he's out there in this world of superstardom, we could do whatever the fuck he wants. Everywhere he goes, people are screaming and cheering and, and he's knocking everybody out in the first round.

• 2:28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, the, the pressure on that, man. And then they have to fight Holyfield.

• 2:28:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:37Speaker 02

  A guy who was really kind of more like a big brother to him throughout his life. You know, his professional life. Cause you know, Holyfield was, he was a cruiserweight. You know, and Holyfield was a type of guy, how you doing, Mike? You check on him and all that type of stuff. Then he has to fight this guy. And there was, deep down, like, he's gotta fight this guy who's, this, he's got this reputation as a holy man and he's all this type of stuff. And then, I remember being, uh, being at that fight, and I remember the press conference. And Mike was like, really manufacturing this hatred. That, I was like, that's not real. Like, he's trying to dig down to really get this edge

• 2:29:21Speaker 02

  to really hate Holyfield. And I was like, that's, that's, I thought that was a mistake. But, um, and I don't think psychologically, he was in his, his game.

• 2:29:34Joe Rogan?

  Holyfield had an edge on him.

• 2:29:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:36Joe Rogan?

  I think it was also the fact the Holyman thing was a big deal. Like Holyfield had this incredible belief in God and he really believed that, you know, God was looking out for him and he was gonna go in there and.

• 2:29:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then.

• 2:29:50Joe Rogan?

  Couldn't be deterred.

• 2:29:51Speaker 02

  Dude, the third round, I mean, look, of course, I studied all this stuff on Mike Tyson. Third round of that first fight got chills because, think about it. He heard something that he never heard his entire career. Everybody started chanting for the other guy.

• 2:30:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:30:10Speaker 02

  Holyfield, holyfield. And I swear to you, I saw just the air come out of this guy.

• 2:30:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:18Speaker 02

  And it was like, I've done all of this and they're chanting for this man. And how gracious he was, how Tyson was at the end.

• 2:30:32Speaker 02

  I felt like that's not a new thought. You kinda had that opinion of him going into this.

• 2:30:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, Holyfield had been through the wars, right? He had those wars with Riddick Bowe. He had the first war with Dwight Muhammad Kawi. Remember that fight at cruiserweight? Oh my God, go back and watch that fight, that fight. He had the war with Burt Cooper. He had wars.

• 2:30:57Speaker 02

  And Holyfield was unflappable. He's like, he's like, I don't know why Mike's saying this about me, but.

• 2:31:04Speaker 02

  It's like, he's just like.

• 2:31:07Joe Rogan?

  Never got angry.

• 2:31:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's like, how you know, it's hard to maintain like anger for that dude. Like, he's just like, okay, this is okay.

• 2:31:16Joe Rogan?

  That's also terrifying too, because you know, you can't get in there. You're trying to get in that head and it's like, there's, you're not getting in there, God's in there.

• 2:31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I was like, if you look at it, you know. Mike Tyson was committing to every first blow.

• 2:31:28Joe Rogan?

  Yup.

• 2:31:29Speaker 02

  Holyfield is a counterfighter.

• 2:31:31Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:31:32Speaker 02

  Fake him, let him throw that counter, and you got him.

• 2:31:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:36Speaker 02

  And I was like, I think normally Mike knows this. Holyfield's center of gravity, so different. He's thin-legged, big up top. Mike should be able to push him easily, easily. I didn't see the things that I normally saw from Mike Tyson in that fight, which made me feel like this is a psychological component.

• 2:32:00Joe Rogan?

  It's a psychological component, but it's also a training component, because again, he wasn't with an elite trainer at that time. It wasn't, it wasn't the same as him being trained by Costamano. It wasn't the same.

• 2:32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:11Joe Rogan?

  He didn't have the bobbing and weaving style that he used to have.

• 2:32:13Speaker 02

  Do you remember, he caught Holyfield with the body shot and the uppercut?

• 2:32:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:18Speaker 02

  And just like, basically, you almost said, you saw, finish him.

• 2:32:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:23Speaker 02

  But he just chilled? Do you remember that moment?

• 2:32:27Joe Rogan?

  I don't specifically.

• 2:32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a moment, there's a moment like that, that he, he hurt him, and Holyfield looked like, it's like...

• 2:32:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but Holyfield would rebound. I mean, they're really like, bow fights.

• 2:32:39Speaker 02

  But you look at Tyson, you look at almost everything he, he's done. I thought I was about to see the beginning of the end, and I'm like, what the, what the? I remember being there going, why isn't he jumping on him? You know, hey, hey, no, maybe I'm wrong, or whatever, but I swear I saw that moment. And I remember going, what's going on? Why isn't he not jumping on him?

• 2:33:07Speaker 02

  And it's interesting, it's interesting.

• 2:33:09Joe Rogan?

  Psychology plays a big role in how, how you feel about the opponent, and the opponent essentially holds up a mirror and allows you to look at yourself.

• 2:33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:17Joe Rogan?

  And he's comparing himself to this holy man. He probably didn't like it.

• 2:33:21Speaker 02

  I, Joe, you, you, you know, I think that's the way I thought about it. And of course, who am I to do, but this is, it's my opinion.

• 2:33:28Joe Rogan?

  Those dudes with that kind of character, like Holyfield had at the time, those are scary guys. Cause like, they can't be broken mentally.

• 2:33:36Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:33:37Joe Rogan?

  They're always gonna, and if, if you try to break him physically and he rebounds, like, oh god. How, how much will I have left in the tank?

• 2:33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:46Joe Rogan?

  How many more of these shots can I take?

• 2:33:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, no, it's different if somebody, like, taunted you. Now, you can, you know, manufacture, like, you know. But when a guy's just like, okay, I'm just doing my thing. But, but, but you, you, you kind of start going, oh, is it me? Is it, cause you don't, then, you know, it's like, that's a, that's, when you had Fedor's.

• 2:34:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:34:10Speaker 02

  Somebody like that, it's just like, like this, it's like, you, you just drown yourself.

• 2:34:14Joe Rogan?

  Stoic.

• 2:34:15Speaker 02

  Cause I can't, I can't derive nothing from him. It's like.

• 2:34:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he was the best at it.

• 2:34:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:34:19Joe Rogan?

  Fedor was the best at it. Fedor would be in the middle of the most chaotic war. And it looked like he was just sipping a cup of coffee.

• 2:34:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:26Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy. There was no one like that guy. He's one of the most unique characters in the, I think we were robbed of one of the greatest heavyweight matchups of all time, when they never figured out how to put Kane Velasquez versus Fedor when they were both in their primes.

• 2:34:42Speaker 02

  Man. Kane Velasquez is the scariest person I've ever seen, as far as I'm concerned. Like, if there was one guy that, like, cause I, I pride myself, I'd get in the ring with anybody. That guy, man.

• 2:34:56Joe Rogan?

  He never got tired.

• 2:34:59Speaker 02

  Man, he's just like a juggernaut.

• 2:35:01Joe Rogan?

  He had cardio for a heavyweight that was like a marathon runner. It didn't make any sense. He was a 240 pound guy who never got tired.

• 2:35:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, didn't.

• 2:35:08Joe Rogan?

  Perfect technique.

• 2:35:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think the, the, the fights with, um, um.

• 2:35:14Joe Rogan?

  Junior Dos Santos?

• 2:35:15Speaker 02

  I feel like they ruined each other.

• 2:35:17Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:35:18Speaker 02

  I feel like they ruined each other.

• 2:35:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think certainly ruined Junior. Especially the second fight. The first fight Junior caught. The first fight Kane should have never took that fight. Kane had to take that fight because it was on Fox. It was a big deal. It was the main event of the Fox, the first Fox card. And Kane blew his knee out. So if you look at that fight, Kane's wearing a knee brace. His knee was fucked up. Like his meniscus was torn. He was all fucked up. He couldn't anchor on it. He couldn't really post on it. And then he couldn't get out of the way. And Junior caught him with a big right hand, cracked him, dropped him, stopped him. And then he comes back. Here it is. Here's Tyson versus Holyfield.

• 2:35:55Speaker 02

  Boom. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

• 2:35:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but I'm, but Holyfield's still there. He's still there.

• 2:36:03Speaker 02

  Remember he has a chance. He has a chance right now. Evander's hurt. You heard what he said, right?

• 2:36:09Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm, yeah. But that took some wind out of Evander right away.

• 2:36:16Joe Rogan?

  But the thing about Evander is, Evander was always there. He had been through these kind of fights before.

• 2:36:21Speaker 02

  But I don't know where I am, but I was there. And something about seeing that, I felt like, oh, he's about to take him out.

• 2:36:29Joe Rogan?

  But I think because Evander rebounded and Evander had a history of rebounding.

• 2:36:34Speaker 02

  Oh, sure, sure. Absolutely.

• 2:36:36Joe Rogan?

  Of wars.

• 2:36:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely, but it still. It still doesn't change the fact that there was, I feel like there was an opportunity.

• 2:36:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:43Speaker 02

  And he, that was a very un-Tyson-like situation.

• 2:36:48Joe Rogan?

  I just don't think Tyson was Tyson anymore by this time. I mean, I think he was a one punch guy by this time. He wasn't cutting those crazy angles. He would slide off to the side and rip the body and go, he was standing right in front of guys.

• 2:37:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:01Joe Rogan?

  He lost a lot of what made him special, which was the speed of combinations and the movement.

• 2:37:05Speaker 02

  The movement is primarily because he couldn't have, he couldn't have never gotten that far if he didn't do that.

• 2:37:11Joe Rogan?

  Show that Marv Frazier fight. Show that Marv Frazier fight. Tyson versus Marv Frazier is my favorite, favorite Tyson performance. Because Marv Frazier looked like he was going to a funeral at the beginning of the fight. Look at him. I mean, you feel the energy from his face.

• 2:37:26Speaker 02

  And he didn't play the covenant right after this with the grizzly bear just mauling.

• 2:37:32Speaker 02

  It's the same thing.

• 2:37:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, here it is. He's just all over Marvis, like from the beginning. This was on ABC Wide World of Sports. I remember watching this at home. But look at the bobbing and the weaving. It's not just right in front of him. It's angles. Like what did he hear? Boom!

• 2:37:49Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 2:37:53Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 2:37:56Joe Rogan?

  That was when he was the champ. I mean, he wasn't the champ yet, but he was the champ. He was about to fight Trevor Berbik, but everybody was like, oh, my God, he's real.

• 2:38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, here's the thing that sparked some controversy. Mike Tyson versus Muhammad Ali.

• 2:38:11Joe Rogan?

  It depends on which Tyson and which Muhammad Ali.

• 2:38:13Speaker 02

  Well, the best of both. You know, of course, you gotta say the best.

• 2:38:16Joe Rogan?

  The best Muhammad Ali wasn't Muhammad Ali. I think it was Cassius Clay. I think the best was when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams. To me, I always tell people, like, you want to know Ali before they took his title away? Before they put him on the shelf for three years because he wouldn't fight in Vietnam? Watch Cleveland Big Cat Williams, because Cleveland was a big, scary power puncher. And Muhammad Ali was just dancing around him, dancing around.

• 2:38:38Speaker 02

  But was he bigger than Muhammad Ali, though?

• 2:38:41Joe Rogan?

  With Cleveland?

• 2:38:41Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing about Muhammad Ali. People don't realize he was like the biggest guy in the ring. You know, he was only four pounds different than, than, uh, Foreman. People don't realize because he moves around, the way he moves.

• 2:38:52Joe Rogan?

  Back then, but in the Cleveland Big Cat Williams days, he was lighter. He was only, yeah, he was only like 215 or 220.

• 2:39:00Speaker 02

  And Cleveland Williams was what?

• 2:39:02Joe Rogan?

  He was big. Look at the size of Cleveland. Look at his back. Look at the back on Cleveland.

• 2:39:05Speaker 02

  And look at the legs, though.

• 2:39:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but he was a power puncher, man. You watch some of Cleveland. Look at his back. Cleveland was a scary dude, man.

• 2:39:13Speaker 02

  He might be lean. He might be lean, but Muhammad Ali's a big dude.

• 2:39:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's definitely a big dude.

• 2:39:18Speaker 02

  I think Muhammad Ali's bigger than that guy.

• 2:39:20Joe Rogan?

  Maybe, but look at the movement, man. My God.

• 2:39:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 2:39:25Joe Rogan?

  So, this movement was absent when he came back three years later. He never fought like this again. And when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams, Cleveland just did not know where he was. Muhammad Ali was 212, Williams was 211. It was 210 that weigh in. Oh, okay. Well, dudes were smaller back then. Like, think about Rocky Marciano. He was only 185.

• 2:39:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the thing is, the people don't realize because he's fighting like a lighter guy. You got a bigger guy hitting guys, especially, you know, he tricked people to coming in, and that magnifies everything.

• 2:39:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, sort of, but they're basically the same size. But 212 is fairly small. This is smaller than Mike was when Mike was in his prime. And, you know, Mike was only like 215, 220.

• 2:40:02Speaker 02

  220, yeah, 221. So that's why it's interesting because, like, Mike moved his head. And the people who did the best against Muhammad Ali was Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, who moved their heads.

• 2:40:13Joe Rogan?

  Yes, but again, these are the guys after this three-year break. This three-year break, Muhammad Ali didn't train. He didn't train at all for three years. When you watch when he comes back after that, like, come on, son. The speed. And Cleveland's like, what the fuck is going on?

• 2:40:29Speaker 02

  But speed and a bigger guy. That's the thing. That's the thing. Because like, you know, you thought when we were going in this clip that he was bigger than Muhammad Ali.

• 2:40:39Joe Rogan?

  I did.

• 2:40:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so but the thing is, like, people don't realize how big Muhammad Ali actually was. Because George Foreman, you know, was a monster.

• 2:40:47Joe Rogan?

  Look at these combinations.

• 2:40:49Speaker 02

  His legs are bigger than George Foreman's. And we know where the power is, right?

• 2:40:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, George Foreman, what did he weigh when they fought?

• 2:40:55Speaker 02

  218 and I think Muhammad Ali was 214. They were like right. So the actual fight day, who know who was heavier?

• 2:41:03Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 2:41:05Speaker 02

  I'm just saying, it's interesting. Because you got a guy the same size as Foreman, moving faster.

• 2:41:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but he didn't in that fight. In that fight, he mostly laid on the ropes, remember?

• 2:41:15Speaker 02

  Well, he did the rope, though, but I'm seeing.

• 2:41:17Joe Rogan?

  He did a lot of that.

• 2:41:17Speaker 02

  He's still a big.

• 2:41:19Joe Rogan?

  220. 212 to 220. Pretty close.

• 2:41:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've seen it different. I've seen it 218.

• 2:41:24Joe Rogan?

  He wasn't the same guy. If you fought, if George Foreman of that time fought Cleveland, the Muhammad Ali that fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams, is a completely different fight. Foreman's getting pieced up.

• 2:41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:36Joe Rogan?

  Foreman's getting pieced up from the outside, and Ali was just picking him apart and moving, and Foreman's swinging at air. He was like nobody else before him, man. It was, he was so different. He was so different. But those three years, when he had to take three, and he didn't train at all, and then he came back, and now he's 30. And, you know, no strength and conditioning for three years, no running, no boxing. His body looked different. Who did he fight when he came back? He fought a...

• 2:42:06Speaker 02

  Lyle?

• 2:42:06Joe Rogan?

  No, that, that white dude, horrible brain damage.

• 2:42:11Speaker 02

  Cobb?

• 2:42:12Joe Rogan?

  Jerry Cooney.

• 2:42:12Speaker 02

  Oh, Jerry.

• 2:42:13Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, Jerry Quarry.

• 2:42:14Speaker 02

  Quarry, okay.

• 2:42:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, when he fought Jerry Quarry, see if you find that fight. Now, why, look at his body, when you see it. You see his body smooth, his footwork doesn't look the same, his timing is off. He had a ton of ring rust, he just didn't, what's that Jimmy? He just didn't look the same, he didn't look the same. And I think that, that three years, they fucked him, man.

• 2:42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:38Joe Rogan?

  They fucked him, they fucked him and, I mean, look, it made him a cultural hero because he wasn't willing to fight in Vietnam and, you know, he famously, like, look at his body. It's different, man. He's just not the same guy anymore. He's not moving as fast. And Jerry Quarry was just a really tough guy who was, you know, famous for being able to take a beating.

• 2:42:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:59Joe Rogan?

  Like, Ali didn't have the endurance anymore, like, look at him. He's just not the same guy anymore, man.

• 2:43:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:06Joe Rogan?

  It was, he was a shadow of what he was before. He still went on to win the title, he still went on, but I always wonder what he would have been if those three years were not stolen from him in his peak, in his prime.

• 2:43:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would, that would have been something else.

• 2:43:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it's, I, I, it was one interesting thing, another thing, interesting thing about Ali is like, try to find him throwing a body shot.

• 2:43:33Joe Rogan?

  Right, not a lot of those.

• 2:43:35Speaker 02

  No, he almost never did.

• 2:43:37Joe Rogan?

  Maybe a jab or two to the body.

• 2:43:38Speaker 02

  Like, he, he, like.

• 2:43:41Joe Rogan?

  It's true.

• 2:43:41Speaker 02

  It'd be interesting to count up all the body shots throughout his whole career and you, you, you might, you might get 10.

• 2:43:48Joe Rogan?

  That's true.

• 2:43:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

• 2:43:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it is.

• 2:43:52Speaker 02

  That's why, I mean, that's why when we, you know, when people talk about the greatest boxer, of course, he's one of the greatest human beings, greatest Americans ever.

• 2:44:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:44:00Speaker 02

  Like, just, ah, man, the stuff he's, he put it, talk about putting himself out there for, you know, as far as a servant of the world. There's nobody, I don't know, anybody who compares to him.

• 2:44:12Joe Rogan?

  Also, the personality, when he would go on talk shows and, and he was just so fun.

• 2:44:18Speaker 02

  How sharp was he?

• 2:44:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so sharp.

• 2:44:20Speaker 02

  And all those things were memorized.

• 2:44:21Joe Rogan?

  One of, one of my favorite ones was Howard Cosell said, "You're very truculent, champ", and he goes, "Whatever truculent means, if it's good, I'm that."

• 2:44:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 2:44:32Joe Rogan?

  I mean, he was just a different human being.

• 2:44:35Speaker 02

  He was not scared of anything, man. There's some stuff that, some interviews that he's being real controversial. Like, he would, he would actually talk shit to people and talk about whooping their ass. You know, just recently, I've seen some stuff that I was like, wow, I hadn't seen this one.

• 2:44:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. If anybody disrespected him, if anybody like, if they wouldn't call him Muhammad Ali, if they were calling him Cassius Clay, he would fuck them up. What's my name? Pop! What's my name? Pop!

• 2:45:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:45:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:45:02Joe Rogan?

  He was a special person. And, and, and just culturally, like, one of the most significant figures ever in the history of America. Because at a time where the world was torn, like, why the fuck are we in Vietnam?

• 2:45:15Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:45:16Joe Rogan?

  And this one guy says, I'm not doing this.

• 2:45:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:45:18Joe Rogan?

  And then they're like, okay, we're gonna strip your title away from you. And then for three years, he was, you know, persecuted and the whole world was watching and they eventually let him fight again.

• 2:45:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:45:29Joe Rogan?

  By then, we had realized that Vietnam was not a just war. And this guy, they had taken three years of his life away from him because he wasn't willing to participate.

• 2:45:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, what a hero, man.

• 2:45:39Joe Rogan?

  A real hero. A real hero. And like, again, a cultural icon. Like, just a different kind of human being that inspired so many people outside of fighting.

• 2:45:47Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:45:48Joe Rogan?

  My parents were hippies. And my parents wanted to watch the Leon Spinks rematch, when he fought Leon Spinks. Like, everybody was sitting around and I'm like, I remember being a little kid going, I can't believe they wanna watch this fight. This is so weird to me. Like, they wanna watch a fight. Because that's who Muhammad Ali was. He was just different. He meant something to America in a way that no other fighter before or since has.

• 2:46:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. Man, there's so many, man, just even for equal rights and just...

• 2:46:19Joe Rogan?

  For everything.

• 2:46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, so much that I really can't think of many people that's been more significant.

• 2:46:25Joe Rogan?

  No, and many people think, many people think about like, what do you stand for? Like, what do you, I mean, this guy, he could have easily just taken some stupid fucking desk job with the army or something and, you know.

• 2:46:38Speaker 02

  Easily, yeah. I mean, I, I did a movie last year in Louisville, Kentucky. And while I was there, I went and visited Muhammad Ali's gravesite. And dude, man, I I didn't expect, I was just like, let me see it. And dude, I couldn't talk for two hours afterwards. I just sat in my car and just, it just all just got overwhelmed just to think what this man really meant.

• 2:47:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:01Speaker 02

  It was just like, it it it jacked me up. I didn't, I didn't expect that.

• 2:47:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I can't think of another fighter that meant more, like in terms of like a cultural icon.

• 2:47:10Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:47:11Joe Rogan?

  Can't think of another one.

• 2:47:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and put his life on the line and just was so, you know.

• 2:47:15Joe Rogan?

  And that's a cautionary tale to fighters too, about the end, about fighting too long. Look, no one ever forgave Larry Holmes for beating him up. Larry Holmes, one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time, never got his just due.

• 2:47:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:47:27Joe Rogan?

  Because people never forgave him for beating up Ali.

• 2:47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, honestly, yeah.

• 2:47:32Joe Rogan?

  Which is crazy.

• 2:47:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:33Joe Rogan?

  And it's not fair, didn't make any sense. I mean, Muhammad Ali was trying to beat him up. But, you know, everybody knew, even though Ali was fighting, everybody knew it was over. He wasn't the Muhammad, Muhammad Ali of old.

• 2:47:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then he, he wanted to call it into the fight, man, like. Holmes was like, why am I doing this?

• 2:47:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, yeah.

• 2:47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was sad, and, yeah, and and he wasn't, yeah, Holmes was never that much of a likeable presence, and it's hard to come behind Muhammad Ali.

• 2:48:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, he was never that kind of a person, now.

• 2:48:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:48:03Joe Rogan?

  But damn, did he have a jab.

• 2:48:04Speaker 02

  Oh, that's the best jab around.

• 2:48:07Joe Rogan?

  Woo, Larry, even when he fought Tyson, when he was popping him with that jab, and it made you wonder, God, I wonder what Larry would have done in his prime. This would have been an exciting fight to see in his prime.

• 2:48:16Speaker 02

  No, the two of them?

• 2:48:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I still don't think he would have been able to beat prime Tyson.

• 2:48:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:48:20Joe Rogan?

  But it was wild to see.

• 2:48:22Speaker 02

  Tyson made his bones on fighting bigger guys and making them miss and pay for it.

• 2:48:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he, he, he load up on, you know, on that, on his legs, and a lot of times when he's landing, he's in the air.

• 2:48:34Joe Rogan?

  Yep, yep.

• 2:48:35Speaker 02

  He's in the air, man.

• 2:48:36Joe Rogan?

  It was the speed too, middleweight speed in a heavyweight body.

• 2:48:39Speaker 02

  He's the fastest, well, he was one of the fastest heavyweights, I think, uh, who, there's one guy, I forget his name.

• 2:48:46Joe Rogan?

  Usik's pretty damn fast.

• 2:48:47Speaker 02

  Oh, Usik's nice.

• 2:48:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:48Speaker 02

  Oh, man, what a, talk about a person, he's funny, that's a funny dude.

• 2:48:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's a character.

• 2:48:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:48:54Joe Rogan?

  And you want to talk about technique too. And another guy was trained by the same guy as, uh, Lomachenko. Lomachenko's father trained Usik.

• 2:49:01Speaker 02

  Oh, cool, cool.

• 2:49:02Joe Rogan?

  Which is also why he's like a heavyweight Usik, or a heavyweight Lomachenko, rather.

• 2:49:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:49:06Joe Rogan?

  He's got that footwork and movement and that Russian style, that, you know, Ukrainian Russian styles, like, those guys, they figured out movement and footwork, Bivol has it, you know?

• 2:49:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:49:17Joe Rogan?

  It's a, no, we're very fortunate that we can see all of these incredible human beings that have, you know, risked their life and their health and put it on the line so we could see true lessons about character and technique.

• 2:49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just wish, uh, heavyweights would concentrate on technique a little bit more.

• 2:49:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:49:35Speaker 02

  I mean, we're.

• 2:49:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, maybe Usik's changing people's perspective on that. Maybe they're realizing like, wow, you can't just one-two everybody.

• 2:49:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think what, what happened, and there's another thing in this country, it's like, people, I think, they're not following boxing, they're not getting into boxing, a lot of these guys going for the money, you know, they'll try to play, play football or whatever.

• 2:49:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, since Deontay, we haven't really had a heavyweight boxing champion in America. Deontay was our last heavyweight boxing champion.

• 2:50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, and talk about technique is, yeah.

• 2:50:07Joe Rogan?

  Not the best, but you know, he had what Teddy Atlas likes to call the eraser.

• 2:50:11Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, true.

• 2:50:12Joe Rogan?

  He can make all the mistakes of the world, he had that one eraser, bam!

• 2:50:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:50:17Joe Rogan?

  Deontay's were the craziest knockout punchers that's ever existed.

• 2:50:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:21Joe Rogan?

  It was nuts, he just, he hit you moving backwards and flatlining you.

• 2:50:26Speaker 02

  Weight like 212?

• 2:50:27Joe Rogan?

  Great, 209 when he fought, uh, Tyson Fury the first time, 209.

• 2:50:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I, he and I went shooting before, like, we've, we've done some tactical stuff, uh, together. Yeah, um.

• 2:50:40Joe Rogan?

  Really nice guy.

• 2:50:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:42Joe Rogan?

  I love talking to him on the podcast.

• 2:50:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, he's, he's, he's great. That's, I, I don't know, I don't know, like, just work on his technique, right? It's like, jeez, I don't get it.

• 2:50:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't know, man, it's too late.

• 2:50:54Speaker 02

  It's what you do for a living.

• 2:50:55Joe Rogan?

  I think he relied on that gift for so long.

• 2:50:59Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:51:00Joe Rogan?

  Cause, I mean, look at the gift though, I mean, at one point in time, he was like 39 knockouts out of 40 fights.

• 2:51:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:51:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:09Speaker 02

  But it's like, he's.

• 2:51:11Joe Rogan?

  I know, nuts, but it didn't matter when it landed.

• 2:51:16Joe Rogan?

  What did learn that you couldn't do shit about all that sloppiness?

• 2:51:20Speaker 02

  I still, I still wouldn't mind seeing AJ versus him.

• 2:51:23Joe Rogan?

  I still wouldn't mind that either.

• 2:51:24Speaker 02

  That'd be interesting.

• 2:51:25Joe Rogan?

  I think after the car accident AJ might be done though, cause he was,

• 2:51:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:51:29Joe Rogan?

  He was knocked unconscious in that car accident. I heard really bad. I heard he was out for like ten minutes.

• 2:51:35Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:51:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and his two friends died, you know, I mean, and after all his fights and, you know, you know, that is the last thing he needed is some extracurricular brain damage like that.

• 2:51:45Speaker 02

  True, true.

• 2:51:46Joe Rogan?

  And then also losing his two great friends like that, it's gotta be. You know, that's just fucking crazy.

• 2:51:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's a sad thing, but I think, you know, if he's my brother or my cousin, I'd be like, you gotta go through this. You can't let, you know, you gotta, for their sake.

• 2:52:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:07Speaker 02

  You know, what would your friends want you to do?

• 2:52:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, we'll see.

• 2:52:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I hope for the best, because like, yeah, he's another one of our warriors, man. Puts his body and, you know, life on the line.

• 2:52:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:18Speaker 02

  For us, man. It's like, that's, that's our modern day gladiator, you know?

• 2:52:23Joe Rogan?

  I know, there's nothing like a fight. It's different than any kind of, any kind of sporting event. It's very different. And the, the losses are way different. They're way harder to deal with, and the victories are way greater.

• 2:52:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, one of my best friends being Frankie, man, like, so I've got a front seat to all of that. You know, Frankie knocked out Roy Jones back in the amateurs and, you know, wanted to see him get his due. I mean, he's, he was WBA super middleweight champ for five years straight. But I, you know, it was a front seat to the boxing life and the fighting life and.

• 2:52:57Joe Rogan?

  It's a hard world.

• 2:52:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is, it is.

• 2:53:00Joe Rogan?

  It's a hard world. In the end, it's not pretty, and there's no one there for you. In the end, a lot, I was watching this, uh, piece on Bobby Chacon, who was a great fighter in the eighties, and oh my god, in the end, it was horrible. It's just horrible watching. Just the deterioration and the brain damage and no one there for you and, that's a lot of guys.

• 2:53:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and if, I mean, your brain, you know, it doesn't regenerate, you know, then.

• 2:53:26Joe Rogan?

  No, it only gets worse.

• 2:53:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:28Joe Rogan?

  And if you're, if you're experiencing brain damage now, I mean, without treatment, there's some treatments now. Um, that they're they're able to use to help regenerate some neural tissue and.

• 2:53:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:39Joe Rogan?

  But there's a certain amount you never come back from.

• 2:53:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I know my my son, one of my uh, one of my sons is, I mean, he's he's been going to, ah, what did he call it? This is like a stimulation thing.

• 2:53:52Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm. The magnetic stuff?

• 2:53:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's um, ah, man, I forget. But he's actually, it's actually helped him out a great deal. I mean, he he he kinda went a uh, kind of a interesting route, like. And kinda experimented with some stuff before, but now he's kinda come back. It's it's turned him around.

• 2:54:14Joe Rogan?

  What happened?

• 2:54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's kind of was like, uh, he ain't getting high, doing, he kinda went that route for a minute. But it's uh, but he's gotten gotten, I've just actually seen things turn around with this. I don't know why I can't remember, but it's this brain stimulation thing. And it kinda rewires you.

• 2:54:34Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:54:35Speaker 02

  You know, um, you know, I think I heard you talk about the uh.

• 2:54:39Joe Rogan?

  Ibogaine?

• 2:54:40Speaker 02

  You know, um, N E D and.

• 2:54:42Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:54:43Speaker 02

  Those type of things, you know, yeah, so yeah, there's, there's things that are going.

• 2:54:47Joe Rogan?

  There are things that can help, but you gotta be very vigilant about it.

• 2:54:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:54:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm I'm, I've been connected to like a lot of the uh, uh, anti-aging type of stuff, you know.

• 2:55:00Joe Rogan?

  We're getting up there, brother.

• 2:55:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's fascinating, man. A good friend of mine is uh, Bob Goman, I don't know if you know Bo- Dr. Bob Goman is.

• 2:55:08Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:55:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, he should have him on your show. He's he's an interesting guy. He he runs A four M, and I don't know if you ever heard. It's this conglomerate of doctors all all around the world that's dedicated to fixing causes of diseases. Not just chasing around the, you know, the uh, symptoms and stuff. And so it's like, uh, uh, we're very much in in the face of the pharmaceutical companies. They are really dedicated to like.

• 2:55:36Speaker 02

  Taking care of the things from the the source.

• 2:55:40Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:55:41Speaker 02

  And it's been going on for a while, man. It's like, uh, they have like about six of these things a year. One of the biggest ones is in Vegas, but like you look, look it up, A four M.

• 2:55:51Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:55:54Speaker 02

  Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, they, he's been, you know, dealing with them, they. I've actually tried to, I've hooked Nick Diaz up with him to help him. Uh, cause, uh, you know, they're in the for forefront of the new medicine type stuff. So, yeah, he's, it's a, it's an interesting thing, A four M. They have a lot, a lot of doctors who will be giving lectures on all the most innovative stuff. And they have all the newest equipment that's just like, it's just the biggest, uh, kind of, uh. I don't know, like rooms, huge rooms full of all the most.

• 2:56:37Joe Rogan?

  Collaborating, yeah. It's a good time to be an older person. There's a lot of science behind it now.

• 2:56:42Speaker 02

  They have the belief that you should be in your, you know, living to a hundred, but healthily.

• 2:56:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:48Speaker 02

  They really believe that and I, you know.

• 2:56:50Joe Rogan?

  If it's ever been possible, now's the time.

• 2:56:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:56:52Joe Rogan?

  I think so too.

• 2:56:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, you should, like, my, my, my doctor, Dr. Alavizos. A doctor sixty-three, he looks like a freaking superhero.

• 2:57:03Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 2:57:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:04Joe Rogan?

  Sixty-three-year-old guys, when we were kids, were basically dead.

• 2:57:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:08Joe Rogan?

  They were just old men, frail, feeble.

• 2:57:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's interesting, man. It's like, and, and, and, yeah, we're getting older, but knock wood, man. But I've been very fortunate, been very lucky.

• 2:57:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, me too. It's a, this is a good time to be an older person.

• 2:57:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Man, you look good, man.

• 2:57:25Joe Rogan?

  You too.

• 2:57:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're, I think I'm a little older than you, though.

• 2:57:28Joe Rogan?

  How old are you?

• 2:57:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:30Joe Rogan?

  I'm fifty-eight.

• 2:57:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I'm a little older than you.

• 2:57:33Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:57:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, you look great.

• 2:57:34Speaker 02

  Well, thank you.

• 2:57:35Joe Rogan?

  You look great then, if you're older than me.

• 2:57:36Speaker 02

  I feel, I feel good.

• 2:57:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:38Speaker 02

  I feel very good.

• 2:57:39Joe Rogan?

  It's a really, well, there's so much information now on how to maintain your body and how to maintain your health at this.

• 2:57:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:46Joe Rogan?

  When you're older.

• 2:57:47Speaker 02

  Yep, yep, you know.

• 2:57:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, hey, brother, it's been great. I'm glad we got together.

• 2:57:50Speaker 02

  Me too, me too, man. Again, man, I gotta, I gotta tell you, man, how proud I am. Joe from the gym is doing his thing, man, in a, in a big way, man.

• 2:57:59Joe Rogan?

  I feel the same about you. Thank you.

• 2:58:01Speaker 02

  Well, thank you, man.

• 2:58:02Joe Rogan?

  This is a lot of fun.

• 2:58:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, man, thanks for having me.

• 2:58:03Joe Rogan?

  We'll do it again sometime.

• 2:58:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, we got to.

• 2:58:05Joe Rogan?

  All right, for sure, definitely. All right, bye, everybody.

• 2:58:22Joe Rogan?

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• 2:59:04Joe Rogan?

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