#2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

Matt Damon and Ben Affleck are Academy Award-winning actors, writers, producers, and creative partners who have collaborated on over a dozen films. Their latest film, “The Rip,” premieres January 16 on Netflix.https://www.netflix.com/title/81915745 Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visible. Live in the know. Join today at https://www.visible.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  That's wild.

• 0:13Speaker 03

  I went in, because I came in from, I am, I think I was leaving at the time, and I went in and, and I'm sitting in the waiting room, and it was like on a Sunday, because it was, I was like, "I'm only in town for you," and Stan was like, "I'll come into the office," and I'm like, "Thank you so much," I had to have some filling or whatever I needed, so kind of an emergency. So I'm sitting in the thing, and, and I'm not getting called in, but the ladies just, no, no, there's not even a receptionist, and Stan comes out with his mask on, no, the first thing I hear is, "Pig fucker, fucking, fucking, pig fucker," and I'm like, "What is happening in there?" It's in the other room, and Stan comes in with his mask on, he goes, "Sorry," he goes, "I'll be with you soon," he goes, "I got Hunter in the chair."

• 0:53Speaker 03

  And he goes back, and I hear, listen to Hunter Thompson swear for like 15 minutes, I'm like, "This is amazing," and then Stan goes, "Okay, come on back," and Hunter's kind of getting out, and he goes, "Oh, you're sitting down with this guy? He's a fucking assassin."

• 1:09Speaker 03

  And then he goes, and he's got this jug of clear, of clear fluid, and he's like, "You're gonna need a sip of this," and I'm like, "Oh, my God, this is fucking Hunter S. Thompson's moonshine."

• 1:21Joe Rogan?

  What is this, ethyl alcohol?

• 1:22Speaker 03

  I'm like, "This is fucking amazing."

• 1:24Joe Rogan?

  2000s.

• 1:25Speaker 03

  I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds and I'm getting a sip, and like, and it was like 10:00 in the morning on a Sunday.

• 1:31Joe Rogan?

  Was it?

• 1:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. He was halfway through the jug.

• 1:34Joe Rogan?

  It was just pure, like, catch fire.

• 1:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36Joe Rogan?

  Where was this?

• 1:36Speaker 03

  In Beverly Hills. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Brentwood, yeah, Brentwood was Stan's office, yeah.

• 1:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God, that's amazing.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  It really was amazing, it was, it was, and so I had probably a total of seven minutes, you know, with him, and it was like, I could not have been a better seven minutes.

• 1:52Joe Rogan?

  That's incredible. I went to the Woody Creek Tavern just to go there, because I know he used to go there.

• 1:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58Joe Rogan?

  And like, you could like feel him in the building, you know, there's all the pictures on the walls, this cool little place.

• 2:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, those books, fucking Hells Angels and, and, you know, Fear and Loathing, it's some of the best writing, I just fucking, like, he really had his own, Ram Diaries, spectacular, you know, it was like, really descriptive and punchy and fucking interesting and fucked up, and he also just lived that life, it was like.

• 2:19Joe Rogan?

  Fear and Loathing changed my life, like, reading that book was like. What the fuck? Like, what is this guy doing? There's grown men out there. Balding, grown men with spectacles running around with a-

• 2:31Speaker 04

  They're fucking think there's lizards in the fucking lounge. You guys are listening?

• 2:36Joe Rogan?

  He's got a day trip bag filled with acid. Like, what the fuck are you doing, man?

• 2:41Speaker 04

  And it's great shit. It's like, you're fucking, you feel like you're on the adventure with him, you know?

• 2:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. No, it's, it's interesting to watch the evolution of his writing, too. You know, like, I read Hell's Angels, and it's like, very different, you know, but it's-

• 2:55Speaker 04

  And it's early, he's kind of restrained, and he was quite like, for that, I think it was edgy, sort of, for the time.

• 3:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Like, oh, you're gonna get beaten, chain-whipped, and stomped by the angels, and that was really edgy.

• 3:05Speaker 04

  And by the time they got into, what, a Fear and Loathing in seventy-two, or something like that? You know, he was just-

• 3:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he was gone.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  He found his voice.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  He did find his voice.

• 3:13Joe Rogan?

  He was supposed to be covering a race for, like, Sports Illustrated. That's a Fear and Loathing, I read a book.

• 3:20Speaker 04

  About, I fucking lost my mind.

• 3:24Speaker 04

  Great, it's great, Hunter.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  We'll take it.

• 3:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, well, hey, it's very nice to meet you guys. I met you before, but it's very nice to meet you.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  Thank you very much.

• 3:32Joe Rogan?

  I loved the fucking movie.

• 3:33Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 3:33Joe Rogan?

  The rip is great.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 3:34Joe Rogan?

  It's really good. It's so original, and it's so, it's so different, and it's, you know, it's like, I love those kind of movies, but it's not like any one that I've ever seen before. Really solid movie.

• 3:45Speaker 04

  Thanks, dude.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 3:46Joe Rogan?

  It was awesome.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  So much better than you hating it and us having it.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  The interviews where they're like, so I saw the movie. Anyway, how you guys been?

• 3:53Speaker 03

  We've had, we've had a lot of those, the junk, the press junkets where they come in, and the first thing that you know the movie sucks, if they don't ask you anything about the movie, they come in, they go, so how you been? You know, and you're like, oh shit, this is gonna be bad.

• 4:04Joe Rogan?

  Is it weird, like, the, the transformation of the film industry seems to like, a lot of it is moving towards these big streaming movies now?

• 4:14Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because where most people have gone to watch them.

• 4:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  Like, it used to be the only place you'd go see movies in the forties, like, every American would the movie every week, basically. But it was because it was that or watch the cows walk by, you know, that was the only. And then TV comes around, it's little, and you see these little cereals. But, you know, what happened was now, this is why it's totally changed the whole thing because you have three hundred million people, three hundred thirty, whatever, is watching, you know, Netflix. And it's a lot harder to get people to go into the movies. There's also YouTube, there's also TikTok, there's also my kids, like, it's hard to get them excited about a movie.

• 4:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 04

  Because that's what we had. I mean.

• 4:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was our, I mean, our teen years were just, every weekend we're at the movies.

• 4:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 03

  Um, there's just no question about it. You were gonna go and usually not get into one because there were too many people, and then you just see what else is playing and go to that.

• 5:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, it seems like it was kind of slipping away because so many people were watching streaming already. And then COVID came around and everyone was locked down and no one was going to the movie theater. And then it just set in.

• 5:14Speaker 04

  I had this, like, drama that was coming out, like, right when COVID hit. I really liked the movie, performance movies, alcoholic guy who's kid, a kid, guy's kid dies and becomes an alcoholic. It's a dark movie, but I, I loved it. And I could tell, like, we're fucked. No one's gonna go to see it, the theater, see this movie. And it wasn't even that streaming, streaming really blew up, you know, of course during COVID. So, you know, look, they rushed it onto streaming. People actually saw it. I was like, all things being equal, I'd like people to see it, you know, and it's not like my dad had an eleven inch black and white TV, and that's what was TV viewing now. It's like two hundred dollars, you got a fucking sixty-five inch flat screen, like, and good sound. So, of course, people are willing to, and then streamers also started making great shows. You have Adolescence, I don't know if you saw, I think that's one of the best things ever done.

• 5:56Joe Rogan?

  I haven't seen Adolescence. What is it?

• 5:59Speaker 03

  Oh, my god. It's a, it's a, it's, I, I don't want to spoil too much, if it's only four episodes.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  They're all one shot.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  They're all one shot. Each episode is one entire shot.

• 6:08Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 6:08Speaker 03

  So, the cast, they took, I think, I talked to the director about it, the cast took, I think, a, a week to rehearse each one and then a week to shoot it. And so, so they, they do it twice a day. It's the full hour they would choreograph the entire thing. Yeah, it's really.

• 6:23Speaker 04

  And then the acting is great.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  But, but that's, I mean, just dismiss that, even, you could even call it a gimmick. It's not in this case, but um, the performances and the writing and what it's about, it, it's, it's as good as anything you'll see. It's, it's phenomenal.

• 6:38Speaker 04

  What is it on?

• 6:39Speaker 03

  Netflix.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  Netflix, yeah. You know, you have like, it's not, this is not even an anomaly. There's Baby Rangers, there's fucking Succession, there's Game of Thrones, Ozarks, you know. It's just like, okay, well, they're doing great shit out there. It's not like, the sort of implied thing before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as good. It's not as interesting.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  When we started, it was, there was a different, I mean, like George Clooney, for instance, like, there was a big thing, you know, he very famously, you know, became this superstar on ER. That show, forty million people a week were watching that show. It was the biggest thing, right? Because there were only a few channels to tune into, and that show was the biggest one. And, and George never renegotiated his contract. He wanted to work in movies, and it was like, you can't go from TV to movies. It's very hard, very few people can do it. And he really strategically and kind of patiently, like, he joked that on the last episode he was on, Anthony Edwards, you know, his co-star, was making a million bucks for the episode, and he was making, you know, twenty grand, or whatever his deal was. Like, he could have renegotiated, but he would have had to give more years.

• 7:41Speaker 04

  That's how bad he wanted to get off TV and do movies.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  That's how bad he wanted to get off the biggest TV show in the world, because the, there was such a big kind of level change between features and TV.

• 7:53Joe Rogan?

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• 9:33Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by the Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galitzine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis. The Mosquito Bowl, now playing in theaters. What was a giant difference in quality?

• 10:16Joe Rogan?

  It was also the breaking it up for commercials.

• 10:19Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:20Joe Rogan?

  It was just a different experience.

• 10:21Speaker 04

  It couldn't be, you know, there's all these rules, or like, you can't say this, can't do that, can't swear, not all, can't have violence, and all the things people want to see in movies, you know, and then, and also, it wasn't, it wasn't as interesting, and then, now, that's tethered to these schedules and all the stuff, where as you get this shit, like, you don't have a schedule, and, and you can take a bunch of risks, so, and that started happening. And then it was kind of like, well, this is just as good, if not better, than what's in the movies.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  Well, then movies started to move towards more IP, and...

• 10:48Speaker 04

  Right, because it was hard to get people to come to the movies, everyone got scared and thought, well, you have, it has to be a sequel or a superhero movie.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  And, and so, an interesting little movie, kind of in the 90s, when we kind of came onto the scene, you know, there were a lot of really good independent movies that were being made. There was, there was, you know, it was a really great time to be making movies, people were, they were making daring movies, and, and, and then everyone just got... Way more conservative because it's huge, like the business is so different theatrically in streaming because to put out a movie theatrically, you have to put so much more money behind it to publicize, like you're trying to get everybody-

• 11:24Speaker 04

  You're basically spending about what the budget was to make it, to advertise it. And you get fifty percent of the theatrical-

• 11:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, because you split it with the movie house, right, through the exhibitor-

• 11:31Speaker 04

  So a twenty-five million dollar movie to break even, you gotta make a hundred million dollars.

• 11:34Speaker 03

  And so, and you gotta get everybody to not only know about the movie, but to show up like that Friday night, like that specific time, you know, for that specific movie and so did, and to cut through all the noise that your people are contending with and, you know-

• 11:49Speaker 04

  So it just becomes about risk, and nobody wants to take the risk, so they don't want to make something new because it's such an investment, we're gonna lose all our fucking money, and the streamers have stepped into that, and like, you know, you don't have to necessarily have a star, you could try something more interesting, or it didn't have to be a superhero movie, whatever it was, and also I think it's like, you know, frankly, like, people my age, like, it's, first of all, it's expensive, right, you take your whole family, it's a hundred dollars, you're on a streaming service, twenty dollars a month, you can watch all you want, so you can't be cavalier about, like, you're just gonna price it however the fuck you want and expect everyone to like, be indifferent to that, and then, you know, also, you know, the idea of like, for me, you know, there's a lot of stuff, I make that decision, like, do I wanna see The Odyssey on, on a big screen, fucking def, I went to a theater to just watch the trailer for that movie, and, you know, did

• 12:33Speaker 04

  I, at one battle after another, I wanted to go see in the theater, but there's movies of people that I really like and respect where, yeah, and I got a good system and shit, but I'm like, look, I'll watch it, and I might get tired, or I'll pause it and take a piss, or the kids, you know, whatever it is, that's conducive to my lifestyle, you know, and so-

• 12:49Speaker 03

  And most people's lifestyle.

• 12:50Speaker 04

  I didn't see a few, I think most people are, yeah.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  But there is the experience of seeing it with a bunch of other people, and seeing an awesome movie with a bunch of other people, it's like a shared experience. A hundred percent, and I always like an attention-

• 13:00Speaker 04

  And you have people's attention more.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  Way more attention, like, like, when I went to see One Battle on IMAX, like, you know, that feeling, there's nothing like that feeling, I took, you know, two of my kids and two of my nephews and my wife, and we all went, and we, it was just, it was like, and you're in, with- You know, a bunch of strangers, the people in your community, and you're having this experience together. I always say it's more like going to church. Like, you show up at a appointed time, you know what I mean? It doesn't wait for you. It's, you know, versus the experience of watching at home, I think. You know, you're watching in a room, the lights are on, other shit's going on, the kids are running around, the dogs are running around, whatever it is. You know what I mean? It's just a very different level of attention that you're willing to, or that you're able to give to it.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  And that has a big effect, and it also ends up having an effect, or is starting to have an effect, on how you make movies. Like, for instance, Netflix, you know, the standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have like three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, and one in the third. And, you know, they kind of ramp up, and the big one with all the explosions, and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. And now they're, you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody? You know, we want people to stay tuned in. And can, and, you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue, because people are on their phones while they're watching, you know what I mean?

• 14:25Speaker 03

  And so then it's gonna really start to infringe on how we're telling the story.

• 14:31Speaker 04

  But then you look at our lessons, it didn't do any of that shit.

• 14:32Speaker 03

  Didn't do any of that.

• 14:33Speaker 04

  It was fucking great, you know what I mean? So I think it's, and it's dark, too. It's tragic and intense, it's like, guy who finds out these kids accused of murder, and it's like, you know, and there's long shots in the back of their head, they get in the car, nobody says anything. I think there are those, look, these ideas, like, it feels more like the exception.

• 14:54Speaker 03

  It's so masterfully made, that it feels a little more like the exception. I hope it's not.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  My feeling is just that it demonstrates that you don't need to do any of that shit to get people, you know what I mean? Like, and I think, you know, yes, you know, like, look, hey, the town had the action thing in the beginning, the first five minutes. You know what I mean? Like, it's a, it's a common trick, that you would go like, let me grab them, and get them invested in them. It's like the movies that start with the hero hanging from the cliff, and now we're gonna flashback to the beginning and tell you how they got there. Um, it's, you know, I always feel like, you know, complaining about it makes me feel like one of these guys was like, when I was a boy, like, you always wanna freeze the culture at the time when you, I don't know, felt more like, you know, we didn't used to have these phones. The fuck are all these phones? And everybody's looking at them. I get it. Yes, it's true. Also, it's like supply and demand. People wanna look at their phone, they can look at TikTok, they want, you know, they're gonna do that.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Think what you can do is make shit the best you can, make it really good, and, you know, people can still go to the movies. Not like, I think we have this idea that's like an existential threat. Everything that comes along is gonna destroy everything. Instead of like, what history suggests is that there's like marginal encroachments, things shift. Yep, as television came along, there was less theater going, and that's still gonna happen. And people are still gonna go to the movies because of what you said, like, it feels like a cool thing to do. I'm gonna go see The Odyssey, I guarantee you, in a theater, you know, no matter what. Viewer of them, maybe you could argue that's because I have more choice or whatever it is. It's hard to fight supply and demand. That's the trick, right? If people wanna watch a bunch of stuff at home, because they invested in TVs and cost us money, they will, so, okay.

• 16:27Speaker 04

  But the upside of that is, like, I can try to do something, hopefully that's like, that actually doesn't need to, you know, have the most urgency to get you to come to the theater with your family. That's a little more experimental or risk-taking or whatever in that way.

• 16:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, you gotta adapt. I mean, there's no way you're gonna change people's viewing habits now. I mean, what percentage of Netflix is actually watched on phones? It's gotta be pretty high, which is insane.

• 16:52Speaker 04

  Yeah. Even watching on a laptop, for me, is kinda like, kinda sucks, you know?

• 16:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it sucks.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  That's a joke that I like to make with every director I work with. Like, when they're really puzzling over a shot or really grinding out something, I go, you know, it's not gonna look as good on the phone. Just everyone gets angry.

• 17:10Speaker 04

  It takes away their fucking sales, you know? No, that's gonna look great, this fucking bigs, but keep fucking around and lighting that wall.

• 17:17Joe Rogan?

  It is weird, though, the concern for the algorithm, like, making sure that people watch. Like, look, we've got data that shows within the first five minutes, when this happens, they tune out. So it's like, my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe, you know, he's got Kill Tony, and now it's on Netflix, and so they're giving him notes now. And they can give him, like, but they're not telling him what to do, but they're saying, like, this is when people are tuning out. And so, let's, you know, just so you have that data, now decide how you wanna edit things. It's like, ugh.

• 17:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:43Joe Rogan?

  Slippery slope.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  It is because, because the...

• 17:48Speaker 03

  It's like the, the bar for, for walking out of a movie theater is a lot higher than from just changing the channel.

• 17:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 17:56Speaker 03

  Right, and oftentimes, you know, you, directors will wanna make a movie that is challenging and upsetting. And I remember Terry Kinney, my, my friend, great actor, and he, he told me about the experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New York for the first time, right, in seventy-six or whenever it came out, and he said, "What I remember is not only the movie, but I remember standing at the back because I had got up, I got up out of my seat and I went, but I couldn't bring myself to leave because I was so invested, but I was so," he goes, "I was standing at the back by the door watching the movie," and he goes, "And there were two other people standing next to me who were doing the same thing."

• 18:32Joe Rogan?

  Just because they were disturbed?

• 18:34Speaker 03

  Because the movie was disturbing them so much.

• 18:36Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 18:36Speaker 03

  But which is not a bad thing, right?

• 18:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  So had that been on, on Netflix or Amazon, you know, if somebody says, "Oh, I'm disturbed," and they turn, and they change the channel.

• 18:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  Like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't make Taxi Driver.

• 18:46Joe Rogan?

  Right, that's true, like, the investment of going to a place is much greater.

• 18:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, and one of the values of that is that you could, you look at movies from the seventies, the first act is twenty-five, thirty minutes.

• 18:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  You know, the verdict for this is a great movie, takes a long time to get going.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  Look at The Deer Hunter.

• 19:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that's.

• 19:02Speaker 04

  And, and you're right, like, what you're saying, the threshold for walkout is real, like, any scene, like, "Ah, I wanna watch Naked and Alone," like, whatever, you know, you flip the fucking, so you're, you are battling that, and, you know.

• 19:14Joe Rogan?

  I watched Le Mans the other night, Steve McQueen, and it, there's, no one talks for, like, five minutes, there's no talking, it's just a bunch of stuff getting done.

• 19:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:22Joe Rogan?

  Just a bunch of people doing things, and it's like, wow, you could make it diff, you could let it air out back then.

• 19:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:28Joe Rogan?

  It was, they had a different respect for what it was, like, you were telling a story, and you're gonna let it air out.

• 19:34Speaker 03

  Well, they also knew where their audience was.

• 19:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:37Speaker 03

  They were in a theater that they.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  Part of it was they wanted to come there, I mean, this great story I like is the first time they, they debuted a movie, guys with the, with a projector in a room full of people, it was a, it was a movie of a train pulling into the station, so they put the reel up and they did demonstrate, and they showed the people, and everybody missed it because they were turned around staring at the projector. They never fucking seen anything like that, you know, it's like, the technology's upstaged, but, like, you come for an event, come for a thing, we're all gonna be here, that's part of it.

• 20:07Speaker 04

  It's, um, I don't know. There's competing arguments. So you can think, well, what do you get to do? And some people just go ahead and fuck it. Like Jim Cameron's Avatar, I'm gonna make my three hour movie and people are gonna come and great. You know what I mean? And people say, oh, well, you can't have a three hour movie. And he's like, well, I'm Jim Cameron and I've actually got the number one and two and, you know, movies. I, I think I got this. He goes ahead and does it, you know, this, history's full of people who got told a bunch of conventional wisdom and were like, yeah, but we're gonna do something different. And it, as it turns out, like, that's actually what people want too, is not for you to just repeat the other shit that's been done before or that worked before.

• 20:40Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Visible. Have you heard of Visible? It's the one line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot for $25 a month. Taxes and fees included, all on Verizon's 5G network. It's the ultimate wireless hack to save money and still get great coverage and a reliable connection. Got a resolution to save? Kick 2026 off right now. For a limited time, new members can get the Visible plan for just $19 a month for the first 26 months. Ring in the new year with code SWITCH26. Share the savings with a deal that's too good to keep quiet.

• 21:20Joe Rogan?

  Switch now at visible.com. Terms apply. Limited time offer, subject to change. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. One of the things I read that I thought was really fucking cool is you guys set it up so that if this film performs well, the entire crew gets bonuses.

• 21:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:42Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, hopefully it's successful.

• 21:48Joe Rogan?

  It's a fucking great movie, man. It's a fun movie.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  But it's, it's, it's good, but it's not like, you know, fucking we're saints or philanthropists. Like it's completely self-serving, in my opinion. Because in order to do the job well, everybody who's working on it has to be really invested and give a shit about the result. Not their paycheck only. And sometimes you worry the crew that just happen to be great anyway, even though they don't really have to care about it and they do. And what we saw was like, that makes your movie better. And then there's just the thing of Like the business is changing. You see these strikes and work stops and all these fucking questions. In order for this, I think, to to survive and to be, you know, a good middle-class fucking art artist, you know, artisanal craftsman job, we've got twelve hundred people that, you know, need to have reliable jobs.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  And part of the negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we're all gonna get fucked. Like, we have no participation. Like, you used to work on movies and it happens to actors too, where you go, oh, we all invested. It was really hard and we fucking put in the extra effort. Somebody else walked away with all the success. And, you know, my theory was with Matt was we were like, how about where, let's say, okay, it's just fairness, right? If this thing actually blows up and does really well, you should benefit from that. People have been, you know, kind of given sort of promises of of participation back and haven't come true. This is like, everyone got their rates, everyone got their hourly, no one cut anything. This is just an exercise in actually proving that it's not bullshit. That if there's success, you'll get some extra. A little success, a little extra. A little more, a little more.

• 23:21Speaker 03

  And also, like you said, because it's fair, you know, and and and in success, the people who made the movie should, you know, should participate in that. And and also with this one, which was important to us, there's, you know, they they delineate above the line and below the line, right? Like, above the line being like us, director and the cast. And below the line being kind of the more blue collar side of our industry and and.

• 23:44Speaker 04

  Like painters, craftsmen, camera, everybody else, drivers.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  And so we just want it, we we and believe, like, when we started this company, we were like, look, you know, we know who makes our movie better, right? It's not, it's it's like they've, this has kind of been mispriced the whole time. Like, the economics have been wrong. Like, when there's a when there's a big success, everybody who had a hand on it.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  Because you see a great director that people rely on, or an actor that's considered bankable, they're all going, okay, I need all my people with me.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, every great director I've worked with, and I've worked with a lot of them, they have their regular crew members. But they that are ride or die with these people. Because, I mean, and you said it to me when we were starting the company, you were like, you know, those department heads, you know, who are each handling like, you know, cinematography, you know, your camera department, you know, your grip department, your electric, like all these, this, those people are.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  Ultimately, the people who make the movie good. Like, they make a demonstrable difference in how good your movie is.

• 24:39Joe Rogan?

  And imagine, once you get a good flow with a great crew.

• 24:41Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 24:42Joe Rogan?

  You got the band.

• 24:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:43Joe Rogan?

  Like, there's no need to bring in new band members. Let's do this again.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. And because they, and then, like, you have the situation where they all are filmmakers too. Everybody knows what we're trying to do. So, like, then what makes it, you know, you're trying to get something special, something interesting, something fucking magical in some moment. You have to, like, if people are tight, or they're bent out of shape, or, you know, fucks up the environment, people aren't relaxed, actors can't do their best work. And that does make a difference between something that's good, average, great, whatever. And I think that if you say, like, you know, it makes cognitive sense to people, but if you look around, like, what's his name, Colin Anderson, camera operator, right? Not the cinematographer. But I would tell you, I think he's the greatest camera operator there is in Hollywood. And if you want evidence of that, he shot Marty Supreme. He was a camera operator in one battle after another, you know?

• 25:29Speaker 04

  He's, you look at his resume, and you're like, oh, that's interesting. These are all fucking great movies. Now, is he personally responsible for all of it? No, because it's a collaborative medium. There is no, like, you can be a painter and paint by yourself. You can be a novelist and do that. Sing, write music. You can't do this job alone. Like, there are a lot of people that go into it. You know, even when I realized, like, Matt was the lead in the last movie I did, Air, that I directed. Having somebody so fucking good in your movie, who also shows up, does his job, is friendly, isn't fucking around, or playing games, or being weird, like, that sets this tone. Everybody else kinda goes, okay, well, what's Damon like? Oh, I see, this, we're taking it seriously, but nobody's gonna be a dick.

• 26:12Speaker 04

  We're all gonna do our job, we're not gonna take ourselves too seriously, but we're gonna take the job really seriously. And immediately, everybody kinda snaps into that. That trickle-down effect goes across the whole thing. And I think the best thing that I know how to do as a director is just create an environment where people feel like, they show up, people like me, they're rooting for me, I can fucking embarrass myself and be bad, and it's not gonna be in the movie, and it was gonna make me feel self-conscious, and...

• 26:37Joe Rogan?

  I'm listened to, my ideas are listened to.

• 26:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, and if I have something to offer, they're gonna go, oh, that's a good idea. You know what I mean? And... That that's kind of the trick, i- i- in my view, and then you're depending on the gifts of all these people. Every single one of them, you know, guys was, you know, some woman's assistant. Uh, prop masters coming up with like the stuff that, you know, Phil Knight found, you know, his waffle from the shoe. They found it on eBay, like that's an extra mile, you know what I mean?

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:01Speaker 04

  If you make people feel like it matters and you give a shit and that they're contributing and oh, cool, let's do a close up of that. That's really fucking cool. They'll die for you, they'll go all the way and it changes the whole.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  And and if you bonus them.

• 27:15Speaker 04

  Doesn't hurt either.

• 27:16Speaker 03

  You know, it's not just all, you know, it's it's.

• 27:18Speaker 04

  It's not just rah rah.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  There's an actual like codified bonus structure to say like we.

• 27:24Speaker 04

  This is the way of recognizing that shit, right? And it's like in your paycheck too.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  That's very real.

• 27:27Joe Rogan?

  And you guys developed this, is this, so is this something that you, like, kudos to you guys for addressing this, first of all? And recognizing it and having that attitude, because it's so important and so easy for big movie stars to just think about themselves and their own career.

• 27:40Speaker 03

  We're communists, Joe. We're from Cambridge.

• 27:46Speaker 04

  Keep the car running.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  No, no, but uh, but but each each deal has had this kind of. Each deal that we've done so far has been different because we've made deals with, you know, different. Studios and platforms and stuff like that.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  And it just involved us basically retroactively going, hey? We came in under, we did a great job, there's extra money, here you go. This is the first time that we were able to to actually create like a schedule where it's like, because, and by the way, we wouldn't have been able to do that without Netflix going, okay, cool. You think you can make this work, is this, we'll give you a shot, otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to do it. So we had to say, look, we're not asking you to take a cut, but you know, if if we we can, and we can tell you, if the movie is watched as many hours in the first ninety days as like this movie A, that you all know what it is. Then that's, you know, twenty percent of your salary, right? I mean, you just take a hit. So it's like, yeah, you make more money, your bonus is more, it's all just pegged to where you're at, just because that was the most fair idea we'd come up with.

• 28:41Speaker 03

  So they gave us like five different levels, right? Like the first couple, we hopefully we can hit and maybe the third, maybe we get, and then it got to like the fifth level.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  It's kind of like single, double, triple home run.

• 28:51Speaker 03

  Home run, fucking grand slam. The fifth one was was. A hundred and ten percent of all Netflix viewers or something like that. So it's everybody who has a Netflix account watches it and then like ten percent of them watch it again. And we were like.

• 29:02Speaker 04

  It's like K-pop demon. This is the biggest K-pop demon.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  But that's what happened. We were laughing and then K-pop demon hunters came along and actually did that. That's the first movie that's ever.

• 29:09Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think a lot of autistic kids watch that over and over and over and over and over again.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  I haven't seen it, but I mean, somebody's watching it over and over.

• 29:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. So dude, people love it.

• 29:20Speaker 04

  I mean, it's, you know, the, the, the value of it is that because before this, one of the big things and everybody's fighting over in the strike is like, well, share your shit. There used to be residuals, right? The residuals, and it was only for SAG and a few other things, but it was like, and you knew if you had a line in the movie and there would be a certain number, like at the box office, well, you're gonna get another two thousand bucks. And that was a big deal. You get that check in the mail and like, okay, I can pay the rent for another month. I can do that shit. But then it, then there was this like sort of ill, what constitutes success? Because streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you watch that movie, right? And it's hard to tell. Well, why did you sign up for this service, right? So for a while, everyone was looking at, the first thing that you looked at when you subscribe to somebody, okay, you're gonna go buy Hulu?

• 30:03Speaker 04

  What did you watch first? The Bear. Well, the Bear must be creating value for us. But it's, you can't assign a, a strict numerical value to it because it's like a box office where you can go, well, you know, Oppenheimer is a billion dollars or whatever. And, you know, that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet because streamers are doing a subscription model, you know? It's, you know, whether it's like a gym membership where in the fucking, you know, first of the year, you're like, I'm gonna work out again. I'm gonna buy that annual membership and you go twice. Or you go to the gym every single day, you're paying the same amount.

• 30:33Joe Rogan?

  Also, the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like you go into the movie theater and there's seven movies playing. You're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list. It's insane how much content. You could waste the rest of your life, sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have, you know, millions of hours more to listen to or watch.

• 30:54Speaker 04

  You're right. Like when we'd start researching that and built our own data to poll people and examine all this stuff, it's, it's actually all the library stuff. People are watching all the time. If you said like, the new stuff is theoretically what keeps people with the subscription or whatever, but in terms of like volume of time, I think, and doesn't come from them, but it looks a lot like, you know, we're gonna watch like Orange is the New Black and the episode of Suits and the old Seinfeld and Friends and what, you know, um, Cupcake Wars or, you know, that, that's what, cause Americans watch six hours of TV day, right?

• 31:28Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. And then the other six hours are on their phone. How does anything get done? When you started to make this film, like, what, what is the process? Like, how did you guys agree on it? Like, what, did you guys have it written first?

• 31:43Speaker 03

  Was Joe.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, Joe, so.

• 31:45Joe Rogan?

  Before you knew you were going to Netflix with it?

• 31:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He came to us with the script and we've known Joe for a really, he did a movie, his first movie was called Narc. I don't know if you ever saw it.

• 31:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 04

  Terrific, yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  So we met him way back this, twenty five years ago or something like that. And so we met him, met him back then and Ben did a movie of his.

• 32:03Speaker 04

  Smoking Aces Four, I think. And so we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with him over the years and, and he just sent this to us and said, and we read it and we thought it was great and, and, and, and bought it for the company.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  And then we started talking to Joe about, you know, how he saw, you know, how he wanted to do it and, and he suggested that we actually do the movie. Um, and we, and we were like, yeah, why don't we do it? It seems.

• 32:27Speaker 04

  Basically because we liked it. And part of it's like, we're not trying to just do our movies. We wanna be, you know, doing movies with all these, the people that we like and respect and, and, and then, you know, the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get like, the, historically, the way it's worked is like the, you know, a studio will own a, a, an IP or a script or whatever. And then you cut and they'll say, okay, we want you to do it. Okay. Well, how much? Well, how much did you get for the last one, right? And you go, then what's the budget? And then that's how they assign a value to it, right? But like my belief was, well, especially when these streams are like coming into the market and, and chasing stuff is like, this movie may, may be worth more. It may be worth less. And that like, we're all just subject to that. So we'll try to get the best price for it and we'll all share it, you know, pro rata.

• 33:12Speaker 04

  And essentially that, that was the same process. We've done eight, I guess, movies or so now and, and, uh, we took it out and, you know, people wanted it. And then one of the things that was really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to this, this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize. It was like, okay, great. That's, that's really meaningful because ideally. It becomes a template that other people go, hey, we want to do that thing, you know? And I mean, go, oh, here's the paper.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's the thing. Like, a lot of people say that they would want to do it, but it now, now that template exists, so it's like plug and play. So if you, if you're not full of shit and you really do mean that, then guess what? Just take this and.

• 33:48Speaker 04

  And it also is going to let you, you know, I hope, like, manage the risk. In other words, the argument you always have is like, well, shit, we got to invest all this money in the movie, so you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable, that's too edgy, or can't be R-rated because it costs this money. I get it, right? You're going to put all your money into it, you want, you don't want money to fucking disappear. You want to make money? Okay. So with, like, when we wrote the first movie that we're in, Good Will Hunting, it was like, we knew that had to be a cheap movie. People talking in rooms to each other because no one's going to put a bunch of money into a movie.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  And do a movie with us.

• 34:18Speaker 04

  Two assholes that no one heard of. So it was like, okay, what can we do that's interesting that, and try to keep it as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie? That same logic, like, carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something. So what I'd like to have happen is to say, okay, now that we know there's a reliable system where we understand that, like, in success will actually benefit, we can lower, you know, the price upfront for you, so that you can have a low fucking barrier to entry, so that you can take the risk, so that we can do something really interesting, that's, that's an original idea, that's a, you know, that's an Am and Am or a Sinner's or a Marty Supreme or whatever it is. And, and then if it's successful, we're not all sitting here like assholes where, you

• 35:00Speaker 04

  know, you guys walk off with all the money, but, and you can have that happen in an ongoing way, so that you can make more.

• 35:06Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by the Apple Sports app. Guys, this is the ultimate best time of the year to be a sports fan. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, the calendar is stacked, but it can also be hard to keep track of it all. And that is where the Apple Sports app comes into play. It is the fastest and easiest way to stay on top of all the action, with scores and play-by-play automatically showing up on your iPhone when the teams you follow are playing. That means you don't have to figure out when the games are on and how your team is doing, which is especially nice when you're following a bunch of teams and your friends are constantly blowing up the group chat.

• 35:48Joe Rogan?

  The Apple Sports app gives you all the important game details for your favorite sports teams, fast and simple. Download Apple Sports for free. On the App Store or find it on your new iPhone. This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change, your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone, it's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month.

• 36:32Joe Rogan?

  That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching your overpriced phone bill and pocketing some savings for yourself. All the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Switch today at visible.com. The Visible plan starts at just $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

• 37:01Speaker 04

  Interesting stuff.

• 37:03Joe Rogan?

  A lot of the stuff that was going on with strikes was centered around AI and what AI is going to do to the business. Like, where do you feel is going to be like the biggest problem with AI? Is it going to be with people's likenesses? Because there's a lot of that where they want to use extras and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film. But then there's also, you're going to have films that are written by artificial intelligence. You're going to have scenes that don't involve people. And it gets weird, right?

• 37:36Speaker 03

  It gets really weird, but it's actually an area of expertise for him.

• 37:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this. Like, my belief is sort of like, what's going to happen with electricity? Well, a lot of shit's going to happen with electricity. Some of it's going to be good, some of it's going to change stuff, some of it's going to be like, this is going to be shit that kills a bunch of people. Like, it's opening a door that you can't, you know, say, well, talk about it in a kind of a blanket way. But I think with, what I see is that, for example, if you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. And it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to the mean, to the average. And it's not reliable. And it's, I mean, I just can't even stand to see what it writes. Now, it's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going, ah, what's the thing?

• 38:22Speaker 04

  I'm trying to set something up or somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets... And it can give you some examples of that. I actually don't think it's very likely that it can, it's gonna be able to write anything meaningful, or, and in particular, that it's gonna be making movies like from whole cloth, like Tilly Norwood, like that's bullshit. I don't think that's gonna happen. I think it's not, I think it actually, it turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it. And really, what it is, is gonna be a tool, just like sort of visual effects, and yeah, it needs to have language around it, you need to protect your name and likeness, you can do that, you can watermark it. Your, those laws already exist. You can't, I can't sell your fucking picture for money. I can't. You can sue me, period. I might have the ability to draw you, to make you in a very realistic

• 39:07Speaker 04

  way, but that's already against the law. And the unions are gonna, I think the guilds are gonna manage this where it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We can shoot the scene here, in our parkas and, you know, whatever it is, and, but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole. It doesn't save us a lot of money, a lot of time. We're gonna focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass off out there and running back inside. That's useful. Just like Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn used to be like driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting behind them and it looked goofy and, you know. Now, you know, in computer gener-, people use a lot of computer generated stuff, and some of it is gonna replace just that. Like, instead of five hundred guys

• 39:50Speaker 04

  in Singapore, you know, making two dollars an hour to, to render all the graphics for a superhero movie, there's gonna be able to do that a lot easier. There's already laws around, and guild guidelines around like how many union extras you have to use. But also, we've been tiling extras, like there weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth, you know what I mean? There aren't, Invictus, there weren't all those people in the stadium, like, that's something we've been doing. It kind of feels to me like, I think we were talking about earlier, where there's a lot more fear, because we have the sense, this existential dread, it's gonna wipe everything out. Right. But that actually runs counter, in my view, to what history seems to show, which is, A, adoption is slow, it's incremental. I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from

• 40:33Speaker 04

  people who are trying to justify valuations around companies, where they go, we're gonna change everything. In two years, there's gonna be no more work. Well, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the capex spend they're gonna make on these data centers with the argument that like, oh, you know, as soon as we do the next model, it's gonna scale up, it can be three times as good. Except that actually ChatGPT five about twenty five time percent better than ChatGPT four and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data. So those may say that's like plateauing. The early AI, the line went up very steeply and it's now sort of leveling off. I think it's because, and yes, it'll get better, but it's going to be really expensive to get better.

• 41:18Speaker 04

  And a lot of people are like, fuck this, we want ChatGPT four, because it turned out like the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to like, as like companion bots to chat with at night. And so there's no work, there's no productivity, there's no value to it. I would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to like focus on an AI friend who's, you know, telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say and being sycophantic. But that's sort of a side issue. I think for this particular purpose, like the way I see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not, it's going to be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and they may get harder to do it. And it's always going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it.

• 42:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more people are going to appreciate real things that are made by real people. You know, like you're, you still appreciate a handmade table, you know, you're, you're gonna appreciate, like, did you see, um, uh, The Beast in Me, Claire Danes?

• 42:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  No, I didn't. Yeah, I heard it was great.

• 42:21Joe Rogan?

  Fucking great. That lady, woo.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, terrific.

• 42:24Joe Rogan?

  Woo. When she's in a scene, you're just like, Jesus Christ.

• 42:26Speaker 03

  Great, great actress.

• 42:27Joe Rogan?

  Like, like her fucking lips are quivering, like you believe everything that she's saying.

• 42:31Speaker 04

  But you're right, people want that.

• 42:32Joe Rogan?

  You can't, you can't fake that.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  I'll say like, I, I did this interview with, with Dwayne Johnson, because they, you know, they, when people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors interview them, you know, and I did this interview with Dwayne and, and I asked him, there's this scene in The Smashing Machine where, where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital.

• 42:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Speaker 03

  And, and it really. Walloped me this scene. I thought it was so great. And, and I asked him and I was just like, can you just tell me about this scene? Like, did Benny, Benny Safdie directed it? Did Benny write this, write that? Did you work on that scene with them? He goes, no, we, we actually worked on it together. And I go, well, how did that scene come to be? And Dwayne goes, well, my father was an alcoholic. And I don't remember if he said substance abuser or alcoholic, but, but I didn't know the man. I don't want to impugn him, but, but he had, he had a substance issue, whatever it was. He goes, and, and when he would talk to me, uh, you know, that's how he would defend himself. He was almost a bargaining thing. Cause there's a thing when this guy comes to him, he's overdosed. And Dwayne's amazing in this scene. He's, he's going like, he's going like, yeah, isn't it crazy? And then I woke up and thought, I mean, I could hear him, but I couldn't really hear him.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  And you see him and he's kind of tap dancing. And his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire. And at that moment, Dwayne literally starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his head. And it's like, and it's, and it's, I mean, it just, it was, I'm, I'm not doing it justice. If you haven't, I mean, I know you've seen, I know you've seen it. It's amazing scene. But, um, he said, yeah. So he explains that about his father. And then he goes, and, and, uh, when my mom was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer, I was with her when the oncologist came in and she was lying in the hospital bed. And when he gave her the news, she pulled the sheet up over her head. And I looked at her and she just looked like a little, like a little kid, you know?

• 44:25Speaker 03

  And I was like, all right. Like, so that, right, is two traumatic events from this guy's life, right? From his life experience. And the actor in him, right, sees this scene, goes into his memory, pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene and he can marry them together in the scene. And then he goes and performs it that way. And a dude walking in off the road goes to the movies, sees this, understands somehow that it's fucking real. I, I didn't know why. That's why I wanted to ask him, how did that scene come to be? I genuinely didn't know.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  And made me tear up, you know, like that is, there's no fucking AI that can do that.

• 45:17Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 45:17Speaker 04

  It's a whole lot more than photorealistic images.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, you could, you could, you could have an AI understand Dwayne's face and move his face into different. No fucking thing could ever do that.

• 45:29Joe Rogan?

  The complications of real life experiences relayed.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  That is a completely human, that is, that is an artist, that's a piece of art, right? That comes out of a lived human experience.

• 45:38Joe Rogan?

  That movie gave me so much anxiety. There's moments where Emily Blunt is arguing with him.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  She's so good in that movie. I said, I really said, I, I'd like that, I think, I think that's the best she's ever been. I love, you know, we live in the same building in New York. She's like a very dear friend of mine and I, and I, I, I, I was like, I really think that's the best she's ever been. And then I said, and then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan and, and he kind of stopped and looked at me like, he didn't say it, but he was kind of like, she's pretty fucking good in my movie too.

• 46:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, she's great, period.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  She's great, period.

• 46:06Joe Rogan?

  She's great, period, but there's something about that, well, I knew Mark, I, I knew Mark from, I met Mark in 97 when he was fighting in the UFC. So I knew the whole journey of him and I was so happy for Dwayne because it was a film where instead of being this fucking superhero, blockbuster, Hulk of a man, he gets to be that, but be a, a great actor. And, you know, you can't really get a person to look like that, to express emotions and express, and, and he was Mark Kerr.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  I know.

• 46:41Joe Rogan?

  If you know Mark, I mean, it was fucking great acting.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  I completely forgot it was him and somebody who had seen it before told me that was gonna happen. And I was like, all right, we'll see.

• 46:52Speaker 03

  And it was like, from the second it started.

• 46:53Joe Rogan?

  It didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of like the amount of people that went to see it, but I think overall in time, people appreciate it.

• 46:59Speaker 04

  That's what people go back to and talk about.

• 47:02Joe Rogan?

  Because it's a movie about MMA, so a lot of people are like, I don't want to see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads, but it's not. It's just a movie that happens to be around MMA, but it, MMA, but it's a great movie. The, the scenes are fucking fantastic. The acting is so good and the right and even the fight scenes, they're so realistic, man. It's really like they, I saw all those fights. They've recreated those fights about as good as you can get. And just his crazy struggle. And you know the story behind the documentary, The Smashing Machine?

• 47:37Speaker 03

  No.

• 47:37Joe Rogan?

  So, The Smashing Machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride. And he was the most terrifying guy in the world. He was 265 pounds of solid muscle, just blowing through people, didn't even look like a human being. Everyone was terrified of him. No one knew he was a drug addict. No one knew. And he spiraled out as they were filming and he let them film him. Let them film him shooting up, let them film him like bringing this giant bag of pills with him and all this shit everywhere and just completely falling apart. While they were supposed to be capturing this hero movie of the greatest fighter in the world, he's falling apart like live in front of the documentary. It was fucking amazing documentary.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  I gotta see it.

• 48:21Joe Rogan?

  It's really good, but I was so happy that they put it in a film. And I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's really capable of. Cause he's so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, and by, and by like galactic success too, right? I mean, it's, it's, it's, he, he has, he had to and will continue to have to push for that, right? Because it's what he wants, right? And not because what, because what, what they are gonna continue to want him to do is, you know, the thing that, that, that meant them money.

• 48:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I suspect that his experience and feeling about this movie.

• 49:02Speaker 03

  From the conversations I've had with him, yeah, this, this is, this is, this has changed him, yeah.

• 49:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, it's like this thing that these superhero guys have to do. Where it's like, something has to change because otherwise you're gonna be boxed.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:18Joe Rogan?

  And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put him in that box. And so, you see him now, he's thinner, he's lost a lot of weight. Like Dave Bautista went through a very similar thing, right? He wanted to be, he wanted to have more range, wanted to have, you know, more opportunities to do exciting and different challenging things.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Well, I think also coming from where he came from, right? It's like, you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days. Try coming from wrestling to like, the biggest movie star in the world, right? It's very, it's like, it's incredible that he did that. And now he's in this place where he's got this leverage as, because he's so beloved and, you know, that, that he can kind of tailor the, tailor what he wants from here on out.

• 49:59Speaker 04

  It's hard to bring the audience with you.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  And you're like, no, no, I know you like this thing, but let me, let me show you something else, you know? It's sort of like, you go to the concert, the band wants to play the new song. Play the fucking hits, you know? He's a little gilded cage, all right, fucking satisfaction.

• 50:17Speaker 04

  No, I love the song too. You know, my, my acoustic thing that I did is, whoo!

• 50:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I went to see the Stones, and, and they were here in town, and there was a few songs they played that were like new songs.

• 50:27Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 50:28Joe Rogan?

  And see the audience is like, okay, okay.

• 50:30Speaker 03

  They go get a beer.

• 50:31Joe Rogan?

  Get the other one. Yeah, that's, well, I mean, but, you know, every artist, I guess, has to make that choice. And he's made it, and, and it was amazing vehicle too, cuz he still kept that superhuman, hulkish frame.

• 50:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:45Joe Rogan?

  And then, but also showed like, god, there's like amazing depth there.

• 50:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 04

  And that's the thing that's, I think, especially cuz it's, A, it's collaborative, it happens to other people. That's what movies do that other shit doesn't do. It's just, just create, like, you feel for people. It's empathy, it's all made up, right? That's not him, it's all, it's all, it's all bullshit. But if you do it really well, like, you know, somebody that seems to really be feeling something like, all of a sudden, I think what it does, it touches like these things in ourselves, you know? It has that same effect that Dwayne went through of, articulated to you about like, These moments that were kind of burned into his memory, then really the best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we project our own fucking like, oh yeah.

• 51:30Speaker 04

  I my father died, or I went through this with my kid, or I'm fucking, I feel fucking alone and miserable and. And here's this like hopeful moment that someone has to go, maybe I can, maybe I can do something, you know, they inspire you, they touch you, they move you and. It's the thing to go for. The other thing is, you know, it's a, is to tell a lighter story, to go through the more typical sort of tropes of it all and it's a.

• 51:54Speaker 03

  Either way, you're in somebody else's perspective for a few hours and hopefully it breeds compassion.

• 51:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, when it's done right, there's a magic to it where you forget that it's happening and you're there. When the most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people. You know, I was talking to Ethan Hawke about this, is there's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon. When in that movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the world, I forget the name of it.

• 52:18Joe Rogan?

  Tomorrow or something, people will find it, but it's a great fucking movie, but there's this scene where he's trying to get, he's talking to Kevin Bacon, Kevin Bacon's got a gun to him. And it's so fuck, I know that's Kevin Bacon, I know that's Ethan Hawke, it doesn't matter, like you're fucking locked in. You're locked in, you're like, oh shit, like that's the magic. And, and he was like, but I'm locked in too, like that's, it's like a hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre way. Like you, you have the lines, but you're living it. And so, and that's either done or it's not done, and when it's not done, you could tell someone's kind of just performative.

• 53:01Speaker 03

  You feel it when you're watching.

• 53:02Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 53:02Speaker 03

  If it does that thing and it pulls you in, then it's happening.

• 53:06Joe Rogan?

  That's the magic of film.

• 53:07Speaker 04

  And sometimes you trick people, I guess, but for the most part.

• 53:09Speaker 03

  For the most part, you don't.

• 53:10Speaker 04

  If you're feeling it and you, it's really happening, it's much more likely.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  Other human beings recognize human beings experiencing real shit.

• 53:19Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  They, they really do.

• 53:21Speaker 04

  It's like these mirror neurons, like I know what sorrow looks like. Without having to fucking, I can't break it down for you, or I even, you know, you, we all know kind of what like, oh, he's a little anxious right now, or did I maybe offend him? Or is it, you know, all these little things, and when some, like in the rare moments, once these big feelings or the things happen. You feel it too, you know, and you usually, like an example is, there's an old saying about like, you know, actors try to cry, people try not to cry, like, because when you're really experiencing that shit, you don't want people to see it, you wanna hide it, you wanna, no, I'm okay, I'm fine, you know, it's like-

• 53:55Speaker 03

  You wanna pull the sheet up over your eyes.

• 53:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  But the other thing that's really interesting from, from our side of doing it, cause he and I have talked about this a lot, is, and I've always said publicly, like, great actors are good enough for both of you. Like, when you're in a scene with a great actor, that thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis, or whatever you wanna call it, that energy, that, that place where you go, right?

• 54:18Speaker 04

  They're bringing you right with it.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  It's like a fucking tractor beam, they will suck you right in with them, and, like, as quickly as you look into their eyes, and you're like, you're like, just there, and it's like, and it's not like, it's like, riding the easiest wave you've ever ridden in your life.

• 54:32Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  You know, it can be the hardest thing in the world, and it can be the easiest thing in the world. When you're with a great actor, it, it just, it's just, if the scene's-

• 54:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a real paradox, like, all this stuff that I'm the most proud of, the weird thing about it is it's felt very easy at the time. And the shit where you're banging your head against a wall, trying to get blood from a stone, and killing yourself, and the whole thing, and it just, and it ends up fucking feeling empty. And the thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is, my insecurity is like, should be harder than this, right? Are we, are we like, we working hard enough, or we, you know? And learn to kinda just trust that, go, it feels good, let's just keep going, you know?

• 55:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's some scenes in this movie, without giving too much away, where there's conflict between you two guys that seems so real. And that's even harder to recreate, cause you guys are good friends. And you're making the movie together, and you've got this scene where you're acting in this, and with the conflict with the two of you guys in the movie, but it's very fucking real.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  The reason that it was real is, I like that scene, the reason it, it, it works, I think, is because he's coming at me, and he's, he really needs to know something, and I'm completely blanking him.

• 55:37Speaker 03

  Like, I'm just, he's going, "You gotta tell me what's going on, man."

• 55:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  He's like, "It's awesome." Like, "What is going, what is the thing?" And I'm just, like, literally kind of blanking him in this bizarre way, which, which, like, was really frustrating him in real life, because he was, because that feeling of like, "It's fucking, tell me, dude, it's you," and be like, and he finally goes, screams out, "I don't trust you right now, that's a fucking problem," right? Which is like what you would say to an old friend, like, "What are you doing, man?" Like, "What, what are you do-" like, "Tell me the fucking, the betrayal is that-"

• 56:12Speaker 04

  Lie to me or tell me the truth?

• 56:13Speaker 03

  Lie, lie to me or tell me the truth?

• 56:14Speaker 04

  Don't fuck to me and like step outside our whole relationship and all of a sudden,

• 56:18Speaker 03

  Just give me this weird look of just like, "I don't know." You know, like, and so we were doing the scene. It was really fucking pissing him off, I could see him like getting like-

• 56:30Speaker 04

  The one line that wasn't written that I saw that I didn't remember doing was, "I would have never fucked you like this."

• 56:33Speaker 03

  I know, "I would have never fucked you like this," yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 04

  Which I didn't even remember saying, and George, "I like that, keep that thing, I wouldn't have fucked you." And I was, I thought, I was like, "What is he?" And I still watched the playback. It was one of those rare moments, again, it was like where it was that thing of you doing all the work by, by not doing anything, which I didn't expect that to be the choice that you made, and it just was confusing and felt like just, you know, leaving you out in the fucking cold. And the only thing I could rely on is like, "I, you know, I wouldn't do this to you."

• 57:04Joe Rogan?

  So you had, in those moments where you're, you're ad-libbing a line, where a line comes, is it just, just that feels like that's what you say?

• 57:12Speaker 03

  It's just kinda like he couldn't stop from saying it.

• 57:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 57:15Speaker 03

  You know?

• 57:15Speaker 04

  But you have to be working with somebody that makes that okay. You know what I mean? Because the part of your brain that will, like, govern you or tell you something's not okay, whatever, will step in if it's sort of like- You know, listen, I expect you to fucking do this box. And there's, there's directors and writers who, who really do really care about every word precisely. And that, you know, and that's, that's how they do it. And that's fine. And that could be great, too. For me, like it, I find it's, it becomes more interesting and sometimes better stuff happens. If you actually feel like you don't have to say any of the lines. I don't see any of the lines in the scene, then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right. But it, but like it's that, it's that fake thing that never happens in life, which is I'm never sitting here talking to you. And think, what's my next line?

• 57:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 57:59Speaker 04

  What am I supposed to say? And how should I say that?

• 58:01Speaker 03

  And it's not about the lines ever. It's not about the words. It's about what's hap- what's the scene about? What's happening in the scene?

• 58:06Joe Rogan?

  It's one of the reasons why Curb, Curb Your Enthusiasm is so great. Cause Larry David just gives you a place to get to.

• 58:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. Gives them a kind of a loose agenda of what's gonna happen.

• 58:16Joe Rogan?

  And then films a bunch of stuff and everybody figures it out.

• 58:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:20Speaker 04

  And a lot of times that shows about the awkward shit in between when people are missing each other or not sure of themselves. And a little embarrassed.

• 58:27Joe Rogan?

  Fucking genius show.

• 58:28Speaker 03

  It really is.

• 58:29Joe Rogan?

  And, and, and people talk like we're talking, like you occasionally talk over each other. There's a stumble. There's no one know, like what? What, what the fuck are you talking? There's weirdness to.

• 58:39Speaker 03

  Because what's also happening is that forces you to really listen. Right? And that is, that is the hardest thing to kind of learn for young actors, I think, is, is it's really all about listening. And like I did a bunch of movies with Paul Greengrass and that's how he works where he, where you just know the agenda going in. You know, some basic things that you, you know what your guy needs going in. Like I was playing a chief warrant officer and I had to go through a door and there was a guy and I needed to interrogate him. And I, this is what I needed to know from him. I needed to secure the house with my guys and I needed to get to this guy. We needed to make sure everybody here was secure. So, and it just, and they, and he put me with a bunch of real. Combat veterans and we fucking went in and you know they're the extras.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  Which is the thing that does your job for you.

• 59:26Speaker 03

  It's just being around the real people.

• 59:28Speaker 04

  Joe putting the cops from Miami, you know, all in these parts and it just like by osmosis, you feel more legitimate, the thing feels more authentic to the audience. You don't know why because you don't know what the, how, what the fucking culture is of the tactical narcotics team in Miami, but when you see the real guys, you kind of, you're like, yeah, that seems right. Miami was a perfect place to have it too.

• 59:49Speaker 03

  Well, it's also specific to this because it's based on this real tactical narcotics team in Miami and, and the guy who ran that, this guy Chris Cassiano is Joe's friend and he's the guy that my character is based on. So Chris was, Chris, we went, you know, we rode along with Chris down there. We went with that team and watched them operate and then hung out with them and then they came up and they were, you know, all in the movie and Chris was around as a technical advisor the whole time. So any question like little details, all right, how do I go through this door? What do I do? What do you do here? What's the, what's the protocol here? What, you know, all of that stuff was kind of overseen by him so that it, so that it was how they really do it.

• 1:00:30Joe Rogan?

  That whole fucking town is so, did you ever see Cocaine Cowboys?

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:00:34Joe Rogan?

  It's the entire fucking graduating class of the police academy one year either wound up murdered or in jail.

• 1:00:41Speaker 04

  That's what happens. All of a sudden you push so much fucking money into something, right? And it's like, before they even kind of figured out like, you know, and it was, there wasn't even a lot of stigma. It was like, ah, cocaine, whatever. It's kind of rich guys, fun drug. But you know, there's some statistic about like, you know, the amount of money in the banks in Miami was like the same as the rest of the country.

• 1:01:05Joe Rogan?

  More banks per capita in Miami than anywhere else in the country.

• 1:01:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:01:10Joe Rogan?

  Because they were just laundering money.

• 1:01:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:01:12Joe Rogan?

  And they got away with it. They literally got away with it.

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  Have you ever flown over Bimini? You know, the, so, so if you fly over, ever fly over Bimini, there are all these like Cessnas underwater, all these planes like around the island. Cause what they used to do, Bimini is like the closest, it's 50 miles off the coast of Florida. Um, they would, they would come in with a plane full of drugs and just crash the plane into the water. They would land it.

• 1:01:37Speaker 04

  On purpose?

• 1:01:38Speaker 03

  On purpose. Because there's no runway on Bimini. There's no.

• 1:01:41Speaker 04

  It's like, fuck it, we're gonna dump the plane in the water and figure it out?

• 1:01:43Speaker 03

  They would have ten cigarette boats, like a flotilla of boats waiting. They would crash the plane. They'd offload the drugs as the plane was sinking. Right? And, and then they'd put it, they'd put it, they'd put it.

• 1:01:55Speaker 04

  The lost.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  The coast guard, uh, like, figures that they're always coming for them. That's why they have ten boats. They throw the drugs into one of the boats. And they got a one out of ten chance of making it. They just scatter.

• 1:02:06Speaker 04

  And that.

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  And the coast guard goes after one of them and hopes they get the right one. And now it's just like, no, I was just taking a cruise tonight. What's the problem, officer? But the planes are still all submerged. Like, you could, the water's so clear, you can see.

• 1:02:20Joe Rogan?

  How many fucking pl- oh, wow.

• 1:02:21Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 1:02:22Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. How many fucking planes are out there?

• 1:02:26Speaker 03

  I flew over it five, twenty years ago, but, I mean, there's.

• 1:02:31Speaker 04

  That was in a.

• 1:02:32Speaker 03

  I don't know how long, I mean, but if you think of probably the cost of one of those little Cessnas probably wasn't. I mean, with the amount of drugs they were moving on.

• 1:02:39Joe Rogan?

  Damn.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, there you go.

• 1:02:41Joe Rogan?

  Fucking wild.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  That's crazy. They're kinda landing where it's sort of shallow.

• 1:02:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, they land in, it's like.

• 1:02:46Speaker 04

  Fuck it, we can swim.

• 1:02:47Speaker 03

  Five to ten feet of water. And what do they, they land at whatever, fifty-five knots? So you just try to.

• 1:02:52Speaker 04

  Water looks nice, too. Like, yeah, sure, you're about.

• 1:02:55Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  Won't be comfortable, but, I mean, Sully landed at seven thirty-seven, whatever it was in.

• 1:03:00Joe Rogan?

  Right. Yeah. Fucking wild. What a crazy part of our culture that that happened.

• 1:03:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Joe Rogan?

  That, the, the, the whole cocaine run during the eighties in particular, like Miami Vice, all that shit. Like, it's like, it shaped the entire country.

• 1:03:16Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 1:03:16Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  I just remember that one guy in that documentary who was like, I think he was from Boston, and he was like the pilot, and he had figured out the route, and he was like, man. We could have gotten away with this forever.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  Here's somebody talked and he knew that's the only way we would have been caught. He was like, I had it all. He was clearly really smart.

• 1:03:34Speaker 04

  A ton of guys did too. You know what I mean? There's a whole lot of people out there that were like, yeah, we had a nice run.

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  It's why I got eight houses. It's like.

• 1:03:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. That's one of the real crimes that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country. There's a lot of people that got very wealthy, including banks, which is just really crazy.

• 1:03:53Speaker 04

  Banks or the jewelry companies, fucking Jaguar. There was like more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than ever was in the country. It was like, doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep, I guess a lot of people like our cars here.

• 1:04:04Speaker 03

  You don't say, all cash. Sure.

• 1:04:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, we can make you a deal. Sure.

• 1:04:08Joe Rogan?

  How many backyards in Miami still to this day have bags just buried somewhere that nobody knows about?

• 1:04:13Speaker 04

  It's probably worth just checking.

• 1:04:15Speaker 03

  When you buy a house in Miami, just dig the yard up.

• 1:04:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, at least find out who owned it before you. Oh, he's a pilot. Get a truck. Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the backyard. I mean, one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it. They were making so much money, they just had to bury it places.

• 1:04:34Speaker 03

  That's fucking crazy.

• 1:04:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's why it's a perfect backdrop for the film, you know, because, you know, that the situation that the cops, without giving away too much of the plot, but the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation. I mean, so many DEA agents turned dirty. So many cops turned dirty. It's because it just can get confronted.

• 1:04:52Speaker 04

  So much temptation.

• 1:04:53Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:04:53Speaker 04

  Like you take this, these people, you know, you got like six, seven people, they fucking work for a living, they have the same bullshit they have to deal with. And there's 20 million dollars, you know, and it's, I mean, it makes for a great like drama too, even like the, you know, with the performances. Cause all of a sudden somebody's thinking like, okay, how are they gonna react? You know, who's gonna be the first person to say, you know, I'm gonna have to turn this all in, you know, and, and like getting to play that shit. And for me also, I like, you know, without being, you know, sanctimonious or preachy, because I really think movies. We're talking about like what they do well, what they do very poorly is deliver messages or lecture. As soon as you get into that thing.

• 1:05:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Speaker 04

  It it it the audience is like, I, you know, I'm gonna go to church for that or fucking school. I don't need that shit here. Um, but I like that what was underneath it is like, this is a fucking hard job. And and that there's a lot, like, there's a lot of value, like, the these characters, the ones that are trying to do their job are trying to get through the day. And just at the end of the day, have done their job like they said they were gonna do. You know, adhere to the fucking ethics if they're supposed to, and at the end of the day, be able to sleep at night and believe there's some value. In not fucking stealing the money or flipping somebody over, you know what I mean, and doing all that shit. And that's the win. The win doesn't have to be get away with the bag of money or fucking, you know, saves the world from, uh, you know, the evil scientist laser beam or whatever.

• 1:06:13Speaker 04

  It's like, the end of the day, if you can fucking live with yourself and say, look, you know, I quit myself according to what the fucking expectations were, what am I, true to my word. And I I think there's so like, that's a, I don't know, that that affected me, I I found that kind of moving. And and you can't do it if you create like, if it is to credit to Joe's script, like just two dimensional characters, oh, I'm the hero, I'm the villain, or this person would never do that. They don't have to be real people, like, would be, subject to like temptation, and money just represents whatever that thing is you think you want. Or that's gonna make your life better, you're, you know, it's something different to everybody, but, you know, i- i- i- especially when you're like, you're facing like real, you know, the custody thing, or the, you know, the sick relative, or or whatever it is, that's.

• 1:06:56Speaker 04

  It's a real thing, nobody's immune to to to that kind of temptation, you know, sometimes I think it's cavalier to be like, oh, well, you're dirty, you're not. Putting people in a very tough situation a lot of times, particularly if they're feeling like, undervalued, like, like the woman, the scene where Catalina's like, I get fucking pissed, I get yelled at, I get shit on, you know what I mean? Like, I'm out here grinding every fucking day, you know, it's a. It's a lot, it's a lot to ask, and I think it's, it's worth kind of making that, you know, heroic, without sort of indicating too much.

• 1:07:28Joe Rogan?

  No, it's really well-written, because there's no suspension of disbelief moments. It's, and that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie. There's always one movie, moment in a movie where you're like, what?

• 1:07:39Speaker 04

  Come on.

• 1:07:39Joe Rogan?

  How'd he do that?

• 1:07:40Speaker 04

  Nah, that's convenient.

• 1:07:41Joe Rogan?

  You guys don't have any of those. There's none of that, and I loved it. I loved it. I loved that, that aspect of it too, where it felt like all of it was like, I believed it. I believed it.

• 1:07:51Speaker 04

  And that's really a credit to Joe and his like, taste, and that's why we really felt like this guy knew how to make narc. He kind of obviously understood this world, and understood that it has to, above all, it has to feel real. And that's why he was open to like, okay, whatever happens, you throw in a line, maybe it's good. Can't get your feeling hurt if it's not, you know, but like, you gotta be able to take that shot, and we're all down, you know, trying to spend time with people. I mean, I kind of feel for these cops, a bunch of actors descend on you, and they're like, what, what kind of sweatshirt is that?

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  It was like that Michael J. Fox, James Woods movie, remember that movie? When he, I forget what it was called, but he's, Michael J. Fox is an actor following around James Woods, he's, he's studying him for a character, and James Woods is a real like detective, and he's just like, get this guy away from me. I kept thinking of that.

• 1:08:36Speaker 04

  Kind of hair gel you use.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, yeah, exactly, like, all these questions, you know? But they were very tolerant of us, which was, which was nice, and, and, and really, really helpful, you know? Because it's all, it's always details. It's always details. It's like, how fastidiously do you, do you kind of mind for those details? Because I've, I've always been convinced that like, an audience, it's like you were saying, they don't analyze why they don't believe something. They feel it, they just don't believe it. And it's usually because those details are, you, you don't get those.

• 1:09:09Speaker 04

  And that's the only thing, like, I'm not great at imagining something, let's invent this. I was saying, everything that I've done, like, that I, that I like, has been a result of something I found in research, like, for the town. I went down and just went through the, you know, all the prisons, you know, out there in Massachusetts, federal prisons, state prisons, and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks and banks. And, you know, kind of sometimes, you know, you want to know, and then sat down with the FBI guys, and was like, what are they like? And the great shit, you know, for me is that, you know, and I'm in like, I'm in like, Wap Walpole, or I'm in the prison of Dedham, or whatever, and I'm to some guy, I said like, After talking for two hours, you know, I was like, is anything just fucking weird ever happened or fucked up? Anything you remember?

• 1:09:52Speaker 04

  The guy was like, yeah, one time, uh, you know, we were coming out of this thing. We robbed his truck and, you know, we, we had the mask, we got the switch car. We drove around the corner and whatever. We pull up, we get out with fucking guns, the mask, all things. And we look over and it's this cop sitting there doing construction duty. And I was like, right then, he didn't tell me the story. I was like, oh shit. I was like, what happened? He goes, you know, he looked at us. We looked at him. He looked the other way.

• 1:10:19Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:10:20Speaker 04

  And I was like, really? He goes, yeah, he didn't want to end up on the wall at the VFW.

• 1:10:24Speaker 03

  These guys with full automatic weapons, masks on, switching cars.

• 1:10:29Speaker 04

  I was like, all right, I'm putting that in the movie.

• 1:10:30Speaker 03

  And it's, it's in the, it's a great moment in the town, like in the movie. Cause you know, Renner, they all jump out of the things and they, and then, and he, oh yeah, here it is.

• 1:10:38Speaker 04

  Exactly. It was like.

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

  It's great. And it's this awkward, they just stop. And this dude, he sees him. They see him.

• 1:10:50Speaker 04

  He's like, fuck, we have to kill this guy.

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  Nope. He turns away.

• 1:10:57Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:10:58Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:11:01Speaker 03

  It's such a great, but that's straight from research, which I always loved that story. Um, and then he, and then the line is here, he put it here.

• 1:11:09Speaker 04

  And one on the end of the wall of the VFW, yeah. It was a great, you know.

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  It's a great line.

• 1:11:13Speaker 04

  It was such a simple explanation for what, why you think, what do you think he did? You know, and why like? And that's exactly what it would have been. Like that guy, next day's picture would have been up in the wall at the VFW.

• 1:11:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:24Speaker 04

  You know, and he knew it and everybody knew it. He said he didn't want to do it like that, you know, that was. And like, that kind of stuff is a, I don't know. It's very human, human calculations and interacting. It's a very extreme version of it, but it also doesn't have, sometimes it's not dramatic at all. You know, it's like, yeah, that was an easy decision. And then the guy never says anything. No, I didn't say anything, you know, and kind of can't really blame him, you know?

• 1:11:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Joe Rogan?

  The Town was a great fucking movie too, man. And I I knew a lot of people like that. You know, from boxing gyms and stuff. I knew a guy who was a hitman for Whitey Bulger. I knew a guy who was a friend of a brother of mine who went to jail for that, for murder, for killing people. Yeah.

• 1:12:06Speaker 04

  What town did you grow up in?

• 1:12:07Joe Rogan?

  I lived in Newton.

• 1:12:08Speaker 04

  You did?

• 1:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I grew up, I lived in Jamaica Plain for a little while. I lived in Newton, but I I spent a lot of time in Boston because I was fighting. It was mostly training and so I was around a lot of these like very shady characters. Who were in the fighting world and a lot of them had backgrounds in crime. One of the guys that I went to, that I trained with, he went to jail for a little while and then he got arrested because a guy got killed. And they broke every bone in his body with a hammer and kept injecting him with cocaine to keep him, keep him awake while they were doing it. And then they cut his hands off and cut his head off.

• 1:12:44Speaker 04

  Jesus.

• 1:12:45Joe Rogan?

  And this guy that I used to train with got arrested for that.

• 1:12:47Speaker 04

  Jesus.

• 1:12:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he didn't wind up going to jail for that. He's dead now, but he was somehow or another, at least peripherally involved.

• 1:12:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I didn't do any fighting, but I I went around and found a lot of things. The one of the things about be, you know, being an actor and people will talk to you, you know, which is a fucking amazing gift. Even if somebody's like, oh, yeah, I killed guys. You know, they'll just come out and like, it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't apply, like these guys in the prison, what the fuck are they gonna talk? You know what I mean? But they're like interested in it for whatever and, you know, so, so you avail yourself of that. And and then I had like, you know, we had people around that movie who everybody knew, yeah, he did that job. He never got arrested. And so like, yeah, people, you know, meet people, you know, and and and talk to them. And it's interesting because the, such a good lesson for for doing this job, which is that they're never how you. Think they're supposed to be like the murderer person. Right.

• 1:13:42Speaker 04

  Right, you know, there's always something a little. I remember one guy was supposed to be like this really violent, kinda loose cannon fucking. Guy who was supposedly had done all this shit. Stabbed and killed two people, Fanyal Hall, and shot these guys in a. In a robbery. And he like shows up with his polo shirt, kinda tucked in, you know, he's, how's it going? You know, just like, I never would have fucking put this guy on fucking killing four people. You know what I mean? And they go, have a good time. We saw, I love that one movie and you're just thinking, fuck, man, like. This is why, and it's a really good lesson for like, you know, we tend to read a script and okay, this guy's the tough guy. And he's gonna be the, it's like you work with, like, I had the fucking, like, the opportunity to train with these Delta guys, like, you know. It's the most elite special forces combat fucking.

• 1:14:26Speaker 04

  Operators in the world, I mean, I suppose the SEALs will take exception to that, but what, just numerically, right? There's been less than nine hundred guys ever in the history of Delta. You meet him. And it's, they're not the biggest guys, they're not the toughest guys, they're not trying to fucking be hard and, you know, they're the most relaxed, at ease. And it, you know, I found myself just being like, finally, I was like, what? Can I just ask, what do you think makes somebody like qualify for the, the Delta force? Like, what's a good Delta operator? It's like, ah, you know. Problem solving. Problem solving? The guy was, yeah, it's probably like your job. I was like, no, let me tell you something, no it is. It's really not like my job. I appreciate it. Very big fucking difference. He's like, yeah, you solve problems again, no, try to kill me. See, that's the thing.

• 1:15:11Speaker 04

  But that, that was the closest insight I got to, which was. I've always kinda thought this about like a guys like, like Brady or something like, there's guys that just don't. Get tight. And that they're, they're kind of able to problem solve when the problem is like. Well, that helicopter's crashed and we're two hundred miles inside Afghanistan and we're outnumbered fucking six to one. How do you think we should get home? Like, just having your wits about you to make that calculation while, by the way, you're in a fucking gunfight and things, you know. I'm sure that does make, cause those are the people where I'd be in a fucking panic and I have no idea what to do. And you get like attracted to the person who, who's like, seems to have a, like, hey, I'm, it's good, we're gonna be okay. Everybody get your shit, we're going over here. You'll just follow that guy, you know what I mean?

• 1:15:56Speaker 04

  Yeah. But it's a good, it's not always the most. Maybe it's just because they're so confident. They're not like, I don't like, I don't need to prove that I can kick anybody's ass. I don't even get in fights. Like, I have a weapon. You know what I mean? It's, it's just a, it surprises me what it, how those kinds of extraordinary experiences in people or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves in how they show up.

• 1:16:21Joe Rogan?

  Right, we have caricatures in our head of what like these tough people are like. Well, you see that about MMA fighters. Like, there's a lot of MMA fighters, you meet them, they're like the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people in the world.

• 1:16:32Speaker 03

  I remember going to one of the events in LA, I think it was at Staples, and, and I was backstage and, and was talking to one of like the lawyers for the UFC about, we were talking about Conor McGregor, and he was telling me a great story about him. And this guy walks up, and he's in a, like, chinos, like khaki pants, and like a blue button-up, like, you know, kind of business shirt with spectacles, and he's very small, and I kind of don't really regard him, and I'm still hearing this story. And then Patrick goes, "Matt, do you know Henry?" And I turn, and it's Henry Cejudo, and I'm like, "This fucking

• 1:17:10Speaker 03

  guy could wreck me right now. Absolutely fucking destroy me." And he, and he is the guy that some dummy would try to pick on.

• 1:17:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, right.

• 1:17:22Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like, he does not, he's not carrying himself. Like, he's, he just is the thing, you know?

• 1:17:28Speaker 04

  You find out a little-

• 1:17:29Joe Rogan?

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• 1:18:53Joe Rogan?

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• 1:19:35Joe Rogan?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com/rogan. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash rogan. That too late. Yeah, don't find that one out late. A lot of guys do, unfortunately. Yeah, that's, it's, well, they don't have to prove themselves, right? They do it all the time. The same with Delta Force guys, like this idea that this like outwardly brash, tough guy. Usually that kind of machismo and that's bullshit. That's you're, you're using that because you're insecure.

• 1:20:17Joe Rogan?

  The secure people are very calm and genuinely very friendly. Really nice. Yeah, that's been my experience. Yeah, it's crazy, right?

• 1:20:25Speaker 04

  It's kind of beautiful too, you know, I've kind of like, what a great guy. And you feel like that's nice of you to be so, so sweet to me because you obviously don't have to be. I'll just give you my watch if you want to.

• 1:20:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no, it's, it is a fascinating thing. It's like we have these ideas in our head, these caricatures, you know, of what, what a tough man is, what a good woman is, what this is, what that is. As I think one of the beautiful things about film, when a film is really good, is you see these complex characters and it sort of like reformulates in your mind, like what a person actually is.

• 1:20:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different people.

• 1:21:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:01Speaker 03

  And, and, yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

• 1:21:04Speaker 04

  Look, the fundamental like challenge, I think, in life is like, is like to find some humility, which means actually thinking you might be wrong about the shit that you're pretty sure about. And it means that like you kind of have to assume somebody else might have a point, you know, it's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees with you because fuck him, he's stupid, he's an asshole. You know, like those are things that actually take work to get to. Because the, the first instinct, because you just defend your idea or whatever, it's easier is to just.

• 1:21:36Speaker 03

  That it's a zero sum game somehow. Yeah, that, that two competing ideas can't exist.

• 1:21:40Speaker 04

  Well, that somebody can't be a good person.

• 1:21:42Speaker 03

  And, and believe, right, right.

• 1:21:44Speaker 04

  Like, if you're gonna say, you disagree, we don't believe so, I don't know, what about this, what about that? But once you find yourself relying on like, well, I need to like zero out this person's humanity.

• 1:21:54Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:21:54Speaker 04

  In order to defend my idea, I think that's a pretty good indicator that like there's something wrong with the way you're thinking. Like, because it can't be that you're right about everything and everyone else is bad who disagrees with you.

• 1:22:04Joe Rogan?

  I think that was one of the most interesting things about The Sopranos. Is that the main character, the guy that you loved, was a fucking murderer.

• 1:22:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:13Joe Rogan?

  He was like, who would murder his friends. He was a, a complete mobster and a thug, but you really loved him.

• 1:22:21Speaker 03

  Loved the shit out of that guy.

• 1:22:23Joe Rogan?

  It was so complicated.

• 1:22:24Speaker 03

  Rewatching it was my daughter right now.

• 1:22:27Speaker 04

  Doing the part that you found yourself being like, I don't know, I think you probably have to kill him now.

• 1:22:31Speaker 03

  But that's, that's also, that's also great, a great actor, like there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did Streetcar Named Desire. And Tennessee Williams, who wrote it, like.

• 1:22:44Speaker 03

  Freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski, he was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski. And Tennessee Williams was like, but I wrote him as a brute. He's this, he was like a two dimensional brute who just came and beat up his wife and, you know, and was just, and was supposed to be this kind of dark looming force over the play. But Brando was like, no, he's a human being and I'm gonna play him like a fucking human being and, and it changed the, the play. But, but Williams with all of his writings.

• 1:23:12Speaker 04

  Life in the real world.

• 1:23:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:23:14Speaker 04

  Everybody's the hero of their story. Everyone has the reasons for why they're doing. And people don't set out to be like, I'm just gonna hurt someone or dominate the world. Like, you think, well, I gotta protect what I have. It's like, even, you know, not bringing back this movie, but it's like, what I liked about Rip was, it was kind of the slippery slope, you know? The first time you take a little money and then, well, you know, I got covered. I don't wanna go to jail. I didn't have my reasons why I did that. But now I've told a lie. Now I gotta cover that thing. And now you have guys who both live by this code that's very, hey, you protect the people who are with you and you gotta have this fucking, and so now it's to be very similar. Like by that kind of slippery slope, ultimately find themselves, you know, well, they kill one another. Uh, because, and it's really not, I don't, I don't believe in that one choice turn. It's like more, how do you find yourself?

• 1:23:59Speaker 04

  You dig yourself in a fucking hole, cause you're just covering up the, trying to fix the last problem that's arisen, you know? And everybody thinks, is, of course, the roots for themselves is like, empathize with themselves is, that's what we have to be concerned with ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic shit. It's so hard to expect people to go like, alright, and, and, and what about, you know, like what they think? And I, and I think that's, I think it's a, it's a much more honest evaluation of people and it allows for like complexity and forgiveness and fucking all the shit that's sort of beautiful about people, like, rather than this notion of like, well, we're gonna be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever. And any infraction, then it's like permanently stains you.

• 1:24:43Joe Rogan?

  Right, that's like what we were talking about earlier about people that have been canceled. You know, that, that, this idea that one thing you said or one thing you did and now we're gonna exaggerate that to the fullest extent and cast you out of civilization.

• 1:24:56Speaker 03

  In perpetuity, yeah.

• 1:24:58Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking crazy.

• 1:24:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was, because, because I bet some of those people would have preferred to go to jail for eighteen months or whatever, and, and then come out and say, no, but I, that, we can't, I, I paid my debt, like, we're done. Like, can we be done? Like, the, the thing about, about that, you know, getting kind of excoriated publicly like that, it's, it just never ends. And it's, and it's the first thing that, you know, it, it's just, it just will follow you to the grave, I think.

• 1:25:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also this problem that people have with people that are in the public eye. They have this, like, desire to chop them down, always, you know? And anybody that stumbles in the public eye, they wanna destroy their life. And they wanna just pile on. And you're not there with them, you don't feel the empathy, you're not talking to, they're not a human being. It's just text on a screen.

• 1:25:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:25:48Speaker 04

  It's just like, kind of, like I was saying, like, that kind of sixth grade instinct to be like, oh, he's in trouble, you know? There's this, you know, human, like, we have dark fucked up instincts too, sometimes, to like, isolate people or get joy out of someone else that they're in trouble, cause, maybe because part of it's saying, hey, it's not me, you know? So if you can point the finger, everyone's looking over there, we feel safer, you know?

• 1:26:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:11Speaker 04

  But it's, it's like, yeah, and to, to, to take any forgiveness out of it, you know, is a really fucked up thing, because then it makes it impossible, A, to actually go, alright, yeah, I did that, fuck shit, that was wrong, I get it, you know? Because it doesn't matter. Once you've said you've done it, you've, you've become like an outcast, and I don't think anybody wants to think, you know, that you're, the sum total of who you are is your worst moment.

• 1:26:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:34Speaker 04

  You know, it's sort of like... The you know, are you know, I think you want to be judged just as well, are you capable of doing something good or something beautiful? It's not to say to forget, you know, there's people that just over and over and over and they're doing horrible shit, don't care.

• 1:26:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:45Speaker 04

  I get it. No one's trying to like absolve that, but you remove the ability to sort of forgive people or look at them in a complicated way. Or else it's kind of one become those things, it's like a get one of ours or one of them, the instinct to get like a team tribal oriented. And it just becomes a sport, you know?

• 1:27:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. It's also like, who wants to live in a world with no forgiveness and redemption?

• 1:27:07Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:27:07Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:27:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:09Joe Rogan?

  Like, that's just denying the very nature of human beings. And that people do things that they regret and they do, and then they become better people because of it and to.

• 1:27:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, some of the people I would rely on the most, like trust my kids with the most of, have done shit that they that they really regret. And you know, was yeah, objectively wrong. And other people have been like, ah shit, I did that, I fuck it, whether it's like addiction, I got myself down this fucking right, did this, I did this. They're able to go, I did it, I'm sorry, it's real, I shouldn't have done it, it was wrong. That actually that those people can become someone that's very trustworthy.

• 1:27:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Speaker 04

  Cause you're like, this motherfucker will say, if they've done something, they'll actually look at their own behavior, they'll acknowledge it. And then you you feel you feel good and you feel much versus someone who tells you like, I'm I'm I'm no, I got all, I always get it right, everything's.

• 1:27:55Speaker 03

  Well, it's like, it's all, it's about evolution, right? And and and and in our own personal evolution and we're all in our on our own path towards that. Like the the the idea of attacking someone, it's like, oh, so you you ace the test, like put your pencil down? Like you nailed being human? You're done.

• 1:28:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, if you did nail being human, that's not possible because you forgot about the part about forgiveness.

• 1:28:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, you haven't nailed it by definition, if you're out there throwing stones.

• 1:28:24Joe Rogan?

  It's most of the people that I find, especially when there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something. Most of the people that I know that have attacked people have a lot of questionable shit in their past. And it's almost like they're trying to hide that by going on the attack.

• 1:28:36Speaker 04

  That's that thing, like if I can point my finger, it's like, who's gonna be?

• 1:28:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good guy. He's calling them out.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:28:43Joe Rogan?

  You know, meanwhile, you know.

• 1:28:45Speaker 04

  And if you like, like. Yeah, it's like you you were telling me to see uh Wake Up Dead Man, the knives, the third.

• 1:28:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's great.

• 1:28:52Speaker 04

  And I watched, I really liked it. I thought it was a really interesting, like, you know, I'm not a religious guy, I don't like that's, you know, and and yeah, I'm aware of all the like, okay, you know, there's the religion, then there's people who's rational. I thought it was a really beautiful movie about like, what's the role of grace in life?

• 1:29:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:10Speaker 04

  And and a really honest examination of that, like, sitting beside by side with, yeah, okay, you don't believe that, but like, you you and and, you know, saying it's not about like, whether you're gonna argue over fucking evolution. It's about like, how graceful are you in your life? You know, how much fucking dignity can you afford other people? And you will recognize and see that there's maybe something bigger than yourself and that there's a reason to to like, uh, to try to sort of be, to find that grace, to get better, you know?

• 1:29:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:39Speaker 04

  I thought it was really beautiful and kind of rare and uh, really surprised.

• 1:29:42Speaker 03

  I was really surprised too. I I kind of put it on and not, you know, not not.

• 1:29:47Speaker 04

  I still was in murder mystery.

• 1:29:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I I I loved it, yeah.

• 1:29:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I loved it too. I think it's one of the best of the three. It's uh.

• 1:29:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was my favorite of the three.

• 1:29:56Joe Rogan?

  Those are great. Uh, Daniel Craig is great in that role.

• 1:29:58Speaker 03

  He's fantastic, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:59Joe Rogan?

  Guy goes from James Bond to that.

• 1:30:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:01Joe Rogan?

  And so many other things as well.

• 1:30:03Speaker 03

  So it was Josh Josh O'Connor that that he played the priest. I, cause I first saw him on uh, on uh, The Crown.

• 1:30:09Speaker 04

  The Crown, yeah, I liked him a lot.

• 1:30:11Speaker 03

  I fucking, man, what an actor he is. Really, really good.

• 1:30:14Joe Rogan?

  How much film do you guys consume? Do you do you spend a lot of time watching films? I mean,

• 1:30:19Speaker 04

  Well, with the company, like, it depends.

• 1:30:21Speaker 03

  There's a lot, like, if we're working, we're watching cuts after cuts and going to the editing room, like, there's a lot of kind of work around all the stuff that we have going that that that eats into a lot of time.

• 1:30:32Speaker 04

  Mostly trying to keep up with what people are doing. My my issue is really that, like, we've kind of developed this pattern where all these sort of movies that come out or are more interesting and very, like, they're all jammed out at the last fucking month of the year. And so all of a sudden, you're trying to race through all these movies.

• 1:30:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, right.

• 1:30:48Speaker 04

  I got really lucky, like, uh, recently, my son, you know, who's thirteen, decided he wants to like, watch movies, you know, and I like give him shit, like, what are you fucking, we always looking on TikTok and shit, like, let's watch a movie and, you know, he's kind of blowing me off and rolling his eyes and like, you know, I mean, if you're a dad, you're kind of an asshole fundamentally. Like, come on, dad, you don't know what's going on, you know what I mean? Like, he told me one time, he was like, dad, I said, let's let's watch this movie. I played in the trailer. It was, it was, I can't remember what the movie was, it was a good movie and the trailer was good. He just looks at it and goes, you know what you guys ought to do? You guys ought to work with some of the TikTok editors. I was just like.

• 1:31:25Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:31:26Speaker 04

  I went and told the editors, I told Billy and Chris that, I was like, guys, I got news for you. But, but now he's like, alright, let's watch, like, what are some movies I should watch? You got Ladderbox, you got into that thing, you know, it's like, so I was like, so I said, okay, what are the great movies? I'll give you a list, I start giving them a list. They started watching them. And so, I mean, this is like heaven for me, so it's like, okay, what are you watching? King of Comedy, like last week you watched Taxi Driver, King of, all these Scorsese movies. And it really was like, oh man, I, I, cause in my mind, I'm like, sure, I've seen that movie, I know it. Watched them again, it was, I like, seeing, I could realize how much better they were than I even could appreciate when I watched it when I was younger. And it really, and it was just the most beautiful fucking experience for me to watch with my son, like,

• 1:32:10Speaker 04

  taking an interest in it. This is the, you know, the older two have always been a little bit like, yeah, dad, no, great, but no. Hey, you guys wanna come to the premiere? No, not really. You guys wanna come to the set? No, I'm good, you know?

• 1:32:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's just too much familiarity, you know? You grow up with a dad who's a movie star, you're just like, eh.

• 1:32:25Speaker 04

  The kid's got it, and I get it, you gotta be your own person, do your thing, they have all their own shit and I get, you know, I, I never even, so I never expected it from my son, and I don't know that he's gonna, you know, and I wouldn't wanna lean on him, like, hey, get into the family business. Um, most of the time, it's just like, you know, we go to like basketball games, baseball, all that type of stuff and, um, but it, but this was a really, that was like, oh, I was like, so joyful, you know what I mean? I sit there and watch the movies with my, my kid. I was like, this doesn't get better. This is the happiest I may ever be in my whole life. You know, right here, watch this movie, and he's like, whoa, he's telling me what he thinks, you know? It's just like, like, honestly, the rest of it, you can fucking keep it.

• 1:33:06Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 1:33:08Speaker 04

  That's the best.

• 1:33:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's great that you guys still love film, you know, that it hasn't become just a job. It hasn't become a thing that you do, that you really enjoy it and love it.

• 1:33:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was never a job. I mean, it really like it was, it was like the, an absolute dream from the time we were kids. We did fucking high school theater together, you know, like.

• 1:33:27Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:33:28Speaker 04

  Yeah. It was like, we were lucky to get it and lucky to, the whole idea that you could even, the goal was like to make a living. To not have to be like, well, I'm an actor, you know, slash a waiter contractor, dentist, whatever the fuck it is, you know? Like, actually, I can earn money. I can, and we always figured like, I don't need that much, especially if we now have kids.

• 1:33:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:47Speaker 04

  You know, okay, we can make a living or it's, you know, maybe it's fucking gonna be dinner theater, or maybe it's gonna be rent, maybe it's gonna be.

• 1:33:53Speaker 03

  There'll be a job somewhere that we can find where we can do this and keep doing it, yeah.

• 1:33:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's something that, I mean, I love when people love things. I, I spend time on YouTube watching people like, uh, fix watches, you know, like, I don't know why, but I, I love when people make furniture. I love, I love watching people do things that they really love, that they're invested in. I think we all have that thing in us where we see someone who's got a passion for something, someone who really loves it. And that's what everybody really wants in life, to be lost in the thing you love, to have a purpose.

• 1:34:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:25Speaker 04

  And it's beautiful. I agree.

• 1:34:26Speaker 03

  Watching someone else with true purpose is.

• 1:34:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, very.

• 1:34:29Speaker 04

  It's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe versus the volcano where he goes in to buy luggage. He's, do you like luggage, sir? And he's like, ah, he was luggage is the central preoccupation of my life. Guy's a luggage salesman and he fucking loves.

• 1:34:42Speaker 03

  He loves nothing more than luggage. And like, and it's the greatest scene. I asked Tom Hanks about that when I did Saving Private Ryan. I was like, can you tell me about that scene? Cause we loved this scene so much. And he go, and he named the actor. He was a Broadway actor, I guess, the guy. He came in, he worked for like one day in this scene. And he's so good in that movie. And then at the very end, he's showing him all the luggage and Tom Hanks has unlimited money to spend. He thinks he's dying. And so he basically goes like, well, what's the best luggage? And he goes, well, if, you know, and he opens the, if I had the means, sir. And he opens up this thing and there's this trunk and it's like this music plays and he opens it. And Tom Hanks is like, I'll take two of them. And he goes, may you live to be a thousand years old, sir. This is the greatest day of his life.

• 1:35:24Speaker 04

  Oh, God. That's amazing. You guys have been in some fucking bangers, man. Saving Private Ryan, that opening film, the storming of the beach.

• 1:35:34Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 1:35:35Speaker 04

  That might be the, the most realistic depiction of war that's ever been made.

• 1:35:40Speaker 03

  So I remember reading the script and there was all this dialogue, all this stuff that was written. And I came late because I'm only in the, he shot it chronologically and I'm only in the last, you know, the last act of the movie, basically. And, and, and he told me on set, I was saying, how, I go, how did it go the beginning? I go, you know, there's that, all that dialogue with them on the boat coming in and, and Steven goes, he just goes, I cut, I cut all of that out. He goes, he goes, no talking for the first 27 minutes of this movie.

• 1:36:10Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 1:36:10Speaker 03

  And that was when I was like, oh my God, this movie is going to be fucking unbelievable.

• 1:36:14Speaker 04

  That changed.

• 1:36:15Speaker 03

  I think Tom says like, I'll see you on the beach or something. He's screaming, you know, guys are puking.

• 1:36:18Speaker 04

  Look at the man next to you.

• 1:36:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, remember that?

• 1:36:20Speaker 04

  He's not gonna live through it.

• 1:36:21Speaker 03

  That was the script, right? Remember that? It was, it was, look at the man next to you, he won't live.

• 1:36:26Speaker 04

  He's gonna die.

• 1:36:27Speaker 03

  He was like, two out of three of you are gonna die. So look to your left, look to your right and feel bad for those two sons of bitches because they're not gonna make it. You know, it was stuff like that. And Steven was just like, nope.

• 1:36:37Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:36:38Speaker 03

  No, these guys are puking. They're, it's like the things up, you could just hear.

• 1:36:44Speaker 03

  You know, and it's just like, and then just boom, and you're into it. And also they did this incredible, like, like cinema changing.

• 1:36:52Speaker 04

  Open the shutter.

• 1:36:52Speaker 03

  Open the shutter all the way.

• 1:36:54Speaker 04

  Motion blur, skip the, the bleach process in developing the film.

• 1:36:58Speaker 03

  I don't, I, and, and I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in there maybe, but I, I just remember, maybe it's just the open shutters, just.

• 1:37:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, but it just means that instead of like, the motion blur is what makes something that like, moves across the frame quickly. If you look at each frame, it's like a blurred thing. And when you roll those at 24 frames, it gives you this, the illusion that it moves across fluidly. And if you basically open the shutter up so you get much more light, each frame takes a super sharp picture. And when you run those together, like the piece of dust goes.

• 1:37:28Speaker 03

  And so the mortar explosions are going and you get that feeling that you're adrenalized and you're seeing, you know what I mean? And it's just, and nobody had ever done it.

• 1:37:37Speaker 04

  He's just a master of the thing. He understood how to use the tools and combined with a great idea and it's, that's just masterful. Like, that's just how you do it. There's nobody who directs movies who doesn't go, ah, it's still working. That's how you do it. It's, it's like you say, one of those things, a guy that's passionate and also, you know, caring about something, you know, it's with that much passion is kind of connected to greatness. And it's, I think, why we love to see that, whether, you know, sports, fucking, you know, fighting, or whatever it is, there's something that makes you kind of love being alive and also love that, that person where you go, fuck, like, when you see Michael Jordan, like, that was that whole movie that we did airs, really all about, like, what does it mean to be great?

• 1:38:22Speaker 04

  And how's it like touch everybody and change everybody and make people want to fucking improve their own lives? Because somebody's just better at that thing than anybody else in the world. It's, it's fixing, you know? I mean, I find that really fascinating. Like, I, you know, people who are great at something and the mystery of like, well, what is that like? And what does that do to your life? And how did you get that way? And what does it take? You know?

• 1:38:48Speaker 03

  And what's the cost? Because to truly be great at something, you have to kind of almost abandon everything.

• 1:38:53Speaker 04

  I, I've seen that in various ways, like, in that kind of just empiricals, personal study, I haven't seen anybody who I think like qualifies for that who didn't also seem to be really suffering.

• 1:39:05Speaker 03

  A hundred percent.

• 1:39:06Speaker 04

  You know, and you're like, damn, you should be so happy. You're the greatest. And, you know, interviewers always, how do you feel right now? There's that sense that like, yeah, it's never finished, or it's never enough, or they can't enjoy it, or they're carried, it's that line we put in air where it's like, and you have to be that thing.

• 1:39:21Speaker 03

  You have to be that thing.

• 1:39:22Speaker 04

  You know, like, it's a kind of a burden too, in a way.

• 1:39:25Speaker 03

  One hundred percent.

• 1:39:26Speaker 04

  And I, I just see that, and that's why we, we want these heroes and people who are great to, I don't know, you know, flourish, have their life and have it all enhanced. There's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens too, and I... It's, yeah, that's like you said, there seems to be a real cost.

• 1:39:42Joe Rogan?

  There's always a massive cost in personal relationships because there's no way you have the time for other things. And the obsession that you have to be the best at something, you have to abandon almost all your concern for everything else. You have to have this single-minded focus and that comes with a cost for the rest of your life because you damage relationships, you feel like a piece of shit.

• 1:40:02Speaker 04

  And you see that up close and like, that's not admirable.

• 1:40:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:40:05Speaker 04

  You don't give a fuck about anybody else? No, I do. I just care about this more. You know, it's like, so imagine that. You're making the sacrifices and it's causing.

• 1:40:14Joe Rogan?

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• 1:40:57Joe Rogan?

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• 1:41:42Joe Rogan?

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• 1:42:26Speaker 04

  Injury to people and you know it and you don't want to hurt them, but you can't help it. And you're getting rewarded for it, you know, it's, it's complicated. Yeah.

• 1:42:33Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't know you and you ruin all your relationships.

• 1:42:39Speaker 04

  Maybe that's why they say don't meet your heroes.

• 1:42:43Joe Rogan?

  There's something to it, man. There really is. But it's just, we all grow from it. There's a fuel to watching greatness. There's a thing that, that hits you and lights you up. Where you want to do more, you want to be better, you want to, whatever it is that you can do, whatever it is you do do. You become more, whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown, whether it's a great film, a great song. Yeah, it lights you up and it's the fuel that we all live off of. That consumes, like we consume to make our culture move forward.

• 1:43:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. And there's like a sacrificial element to it, the people that do it and we all feed off of it, you know? And it feels like, well, that's the person that doesn't get enough out of it.

• 1:43:23Joe Rogan?

  Right, right. But in great film, I mean, how many lives have been changed by decisions made after great films? Like when I was a kid, I think I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky came out. And I, I saw it and immediately ran around the block. I've never run in my life. I was eating raw eggs. I was like, I'm like, this is going to change my life. Like it, it, there's things that happen when you see something truly great, that it makes you want to be better as a human being.

• 1:43:52Speaker 04

  I remember where I was when I saw Denzel Washington play Malcolm X. Watched that movie and I remember leaving, I'm at, I was 19, I'm thinking, I want to be a better man. I thought that in my mind, you know, because of what I had seen this actor do and this and the way, you know, that was the only real conscious thought I had, but I remember having it and and kind of being surprised by it, you know, and it does it it that she can, you know, it's really touched me, you know, a lot of fucking people's work and and that's why you get that like, you know, you you you see people, you want to let them know, you know what I mean, and tell them and I I always think people come to go, hey, I love that movie. I always feel like, ah, you don't have to say that, you know what I mean?

• 1:44:34Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 1:44:35Speaker 04

  It makes me kind of un uncomfortable and I don't ever like put myself in with those figures who I think are like, no, but there's these these towering giants who have done this, you know, I don't know, it's a it's it's it's I finally kind of arrived to a place where it was like, those uncomfortable, oh, I saw a good one thing, it made me want to go out to Hollywood, write a script, and I think, oh, shit, you know what I mean?

• 1:45:00Joe Rogan?

  Sorry.

• 1:45:01Speaker 04

  At a certain point, I figure, OK, you know what, whatever it is, like, great.

• 1:45:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's the cost of your fame, you know, that you have to, there's going to be a bunch of people that are going to come up to you and they want to say those things to you. And like, wanting them to say those things to you is the opposite of the mindset that you need to make those things.

• 1:45:21Speaker 04

  Right, exactly.

• 1:45:22Joe Rogan?

  Which is is so counterintuitive. You think like, once you become really successful, you make a bunch of great things, it's going to be awesome having all these people come up to you like, no, no, no, I'm doing something else right now. And I can't be all wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your fucking life.

• 1:45:35Speaker 04

  And also, I can't be satisfied or take any fucking joy in that because I I don't think I'm good enough. I need to fucking, you know what I mean?

• 1:45:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, never satisfied. Yeah, you can't. And that's the the darkness of trying to do something great. You'll never be satisfied.

• 1:45:49Speaker 04

  You see in a lot of the fighters, the same kind of thing, the great, great fighters?

• 1:45:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, also, fighters have a very small window of greatness. There's a there's only like a certain amount of years where you can burn the RPMs at the red line, and then eventually the knees go, the back goes, you start to...

• 1:46:03Speaker 04

  Is it earlier than other sports? It must be, yeah.

• 1:46:05Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I think so, because like Tom Brady is still elite. I bet he could probably play football right now. I bet he, you know, would... How old's Tom now?

• 1:46:12Speaker 03

  He's probably forty-seven or eight now, probably.

• 1:46:16Joe Rogan?

  I bet he can still play.

• 1:46:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, but that's a, yeah, I mean, that's a very specific skill position and the way he played it.

• 1:46:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, but running back, no.

• 1:46:24Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:46:25Joe Rogan?

  But at

• 1:46:25Speaker 03

  Cornerback.

• 1:46:26Joe Rogan?

  The elite levels of MMA, especially with USADA testing and, you know, and now, uh, drug-free sport testing. When they are making sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone and all these different things, like you have nine years. You have nine years at peak performance. That's legitimate.

• 1:46:44Speaker 03

  How long's John Jones been going?

• 1:46:45Joe Rogan?

  John Jones is a freak of all freaks. Cause John Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he was on coke. That was one of the funniest things he said in the, uh, in the press conference for the rematch. Daniel was talking shit. He goes, "I beat you when I was on coke."

• 1:47:03Joe Rogan?

  I mean, he was getting arrested. He was partying. For, when he fought, uh, Gustafson, he beat Gustafson and he didn't train at all. I talked to his trainer. He's like, he didn't even show up at the gym. He was fucking never there. He was never training. He could just show up and beat everybody's ass.

• 1:47:19Speaker 03

  I saw a thing, uh, on my Instagram feed of a fighter and I, I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight and he goes, "I had the chance to spar with John Jones, to, to work with John Jones." And he goes, "I, you know, I, I knew about it months ahead of time." He goes, "I got every, my nutrition, everything was absolutely flawless." I got, you know, my sleep, everything was on. He goes, "I show up at the gym that morning." He goes, "It's me and five other guys." He goes, "He comes in, I think he went to sleep at four in the morning or something." He was out all night and he goes, "He ran through all six of us."

• 1:47:51Joe Rogan?

  That's my buddy Brendan Schaub.

• 1:47:52Speaker 03

  Is that who it was? Okay, yeah. It was the funniest story. I was like, and he goes, "And then I just knew, you know, like, that's a, that's a level, like, but imagine being that elite and, and realizing there's another level."

• 1:48:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Brendan was a top ten heavyweight and John wasn't even a heavyweight. John was a light heavyweight. It was a lower weight class and he just beat everybody's ass. And he said, "This is his warm-up."

• 1:48:18Joe Rogan?

  He just get in there and just fuck everybody up. I mean, he has a unique aptitude for MMA, but also he had two brothers that were super athletes.

• 1:48:27Speaker 03

  Chandler Jones, yeah, played for the Patriots.

• 1:48:28Joe Rogan?

  And Arthur.

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:29Joe Rogan?

  And so these guys are super athletes and so they're beating the shit out of each other all the time. So they're like constantly in competition with elite athletes from the time he was a child. So he was just so tuned into competition and he was so intelligent. Like his fight IQ was above and beyond everyone's and he would study tape meticulously.

• 1:48:50Speaker 03

  Well, that, that, that spinning kick that he did to that.

• 1:48:53Joe Rogan?

  Steve Miocic.

• 1:48:54Speaker 03

  Steve Ray where he, where he said he, and I think he thanked his Taekwondo coach.

• 1:48:59Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:48:59Speaker 03

  And he said he had been working on this one specific kick from both sides.

• 1:49:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:04Speaker 03

  Because of something he saw on the tape. And he, and he got it off and hit this guy so hard, not even on, not even on his liver side. He hit him on the other side and you see it shudder through his entire like organ structure.

• 1:49:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he, his heel was deep into his body cavity, like all the way up to his fucking spine.

• 1:49:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, but he had, but he, he, he just practiced this one specific. And he was like, and he even said, he goes, it is a devastating shot, like.

• 1:49:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:34Speaker 03

  There's not a human being who could take that.

• 1:49:36Joe Rogan?

  No, it's like getting hit by a car.

• 1:49:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:49:38Joe Rogan?

  Because when you, when you do it.

• 1:49:39Speaker 03

  But getting hit by a car in one spot in your body, you know what I mean?

• 1:49:41Joe Rogan?

  Size of a foot, size of a 13 foot.

• 1:49:44Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, here it is, watch this.

• 1:49:45Joe Rogan?

  He sets him up, boom.

• 1:49:47Speaker 03

  It's just, and it's like, yeah, no, it's over, it's over, it's over.

• 1:49:51Joe Rogan?

  And this is John moving up to heavyweight because light heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided to become a two division champion. I mean, John was a freak.

• 1:49:59Speaker 03

  You see it roaming through.

• 1:50:01Joe Rogan?

  And by the way, that was almost a little bit glancing because he caught him with a bent leg.

• 1:50:05Speaker 03

  Right, right, it wasn't a full extension, yeah.

• 1:50:07Joe Rogan?

  Which, you know, was even more devastating. But John realized that as a heavyweight, he didn't have the power that he had at light heavyweight. And so he said, the most powerful kick is the spinning back kick. So I'm just going to work on that kick over and over again because that's the one tool that I have that can knock a heavyweight out with one shot.

• 1:50:23Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:50:24Joe Rogan?

  That's just.

• 1:50:25Speaker 03

  It's not just the physicals, but he's also like a genius.

• 1:50:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's a genius. Well, he's also like, he's the most meticulous when it comes to game planning and study. He will not take a short notice fight. Even a guy that he could fucking beat any day of the week, you could wake him up at three o'clock in the morning, he could fuck that guy up. He will not take that fight unless he gets a full training camp to prepare for that fight. Well, it's just, you know, greatness, but John's troubled, you know? John's been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy shit and he's, you know, he's a wild fella. And, you know, in that pursuit of greatness, I'm sure has cost him a lot of shit in his personal life. But, you know, when he knocks D-Pay out and then did the Trump dance in front of the whole world, like, for that moment, he's on top of the world, you know?

• 1:51:11Joe Rogan?

  But then, again, it's like the same thing. You're, as soon as you get back, like, what's next? You know? There's another challenge. It doesn't matter how many, how many people love you now, like, it's not good enough. There's someone else looming. You gotta beat this guy.

• 1:51:25Speaker 04

  That seems like a kind of an agonizing thing to both have the, like, complete compulsion to have to get to the next level and the next level keeps fucking moving the goalposts.

• 1:51:36Joe Rogan?

  I'll never forget, um, I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost the welterweight title to BJ Penn. And I'm interviewing him inside the octagon. He said, "I'm gonna be honest with you, it was actually a relief." And he goes, "The pressure of being the champion and having someone chasing you for so, ever in the whole world chasing you." He goes, "I'm gonna be hon-" and I thought it was an incredibly brave moment for a guy to say that, who is, you know, just this fucking amazing human being, this warrior, to say, "I just gotta be honest, it's a relief. Losing my title feels like a relief." And I was like, "Wow." Like, that, that is so, so brave to be that honest in front of the world, because everybody's like, "You just got your ass kicked." It's like, "I'm, this is a relief."

• 1:52:20Joe Rogan?

  You know, "I took a burden off my back. I'll be back, I'm gonna regroup, but I, I needed that. I needed to just step off the fucking top of the hill for a little while."

• 1:52:29Speaker 04

  Get a breath.

• 1:52:29Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:52:30Speaker 04

  You gotta be like, a great action relief to be able to say something like that. It's kind of a gift. Instead of feeling like you gotta hide or pretend it and go, "Yeah, I'm, I'm relieved." It's like it was a lot to carry and, you know?

• 1:52:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, the thing about fighting is, everything you try to hide gets exposed. You're exposed completely during camp because they're doing these, these round, what, what they take like-

• 1:52:49Speaker 04

  Sorry, I, I was here?

• 1:52:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, smoke up. They're, they're, they're taking like, you know, five guys and- They're rotating them in with you. So you're doing five rounds with fresh guys. So you got one guy who is fucking warmed up, getting, you know, getting ready for you. And then you're fucking out of breath and they'll give you a 30 second break instead of a minute. And then they're throwing in these monsters and you know, you're exposed. You're, you're getting beat in training, you're getting smothered in training, you're, you're exhausted. You know, you're always reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them. You gotta hit them and then they gotta figure out where that limit is. And okay, next week we want to do one extra round. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do that, we're gonna do more strength and conditioning. We're gonna push you past wherever your capacity is right now. So you're always breaking.

• 1:53:35Joe Rogan?

  You're always, you're always at the point where you can do no more. Cause it's the only way to, and you can only maintain that. Like the condition that they get in when they step into the octagon, it's not possible to maintain that.

• 1:53:47Speaker 03

  No, right, right, right.

• 1:53:47Joe Rogan?

  You can only get to.

• 1:53:49Speaker 03

  You have to aim at that one moment and yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you have to peak and then if you fuck up and overtrain, which a lot of those guys do just because they're such savages. They never want to leave the gym. Then they don't peak right and then they come in and they're exhausted and they didn't recover properly. And then in between rounds, they're too tired and they can't go out for the next round. They're too beat up. That happens too.

• 1:54:08Speaker 03

  I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you overtrain.

• 1:54:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 1:54:13Speaker 03

  In an actual championship.

• 1:54:15Joe Rogan?

  And you realize you're, you, there's no, you can't bounce back. And this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks and hitting you with punches and you can't get out of the way anymore.

• 1:54:25Speaker 03

  Do you think, who, who was it? Was it Khabib who said that they, they, they should just do 25 minute?

• 1:54:30Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people said that. That, I mean, that's a, a, of, what? Songs are playing, what's going on?

• 1:54:39Joe Rogan?

  Fucking technology.

• 1:54:40Speaker 03

  The Teske brothers playing in my pocket.

• 1:54:42Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:54:42Speaker 03

  Um, sorry about that.

• 1:54:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, Hoist Gracie always said that, like that was how he fought in the early days.

• 1:54:48Speaker 03

  They just straight 25 minutes.

• 1:54:50Joe Rogan?

  Because he was like, look, he goes, uh, if we're on the ground, he goes, I don't want them to stand back up again and go in between rounds. And he goes, I need time to cook them. That's what he'd say. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what jujitsu is all about. Jujitsu is all about staying one step ahead of you until you become exhausted. And you know, and then they eventually finish you.

• 1:55:09Speaker 03

  Like a, like a boa constrictor.

• 1:55:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's the real, that's, but you know, there's this balance of like making it interesting for this, for people to watch. I, I've been a proponent of no stand-ups, don't ever stand anybody up. When a guy takes you down, like you get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway because a striker gets to be standing up when you didn't earn it. So you should never get stood up in a fight. I don't care if the guy's doing nothing. If he's holding you down and you can't get up, that's how it should be. So it's more realistic, but it's the balance of it being a sport.

• 1:55:41Speaker 03

  People want to watch.

• 1:55:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, making it, because people get, when people grab someone and take them to the ground, nothing happens, people go boo. You hear it in the audience and then the referee gets a little motivated and he stands people up and I'm always like, ah, don't stand them up.

• 1:55:53Speaker 03

  I never thought of it that way, that the beginning of the round starts to the advantage of the striker.

• 1:55:58Joe Rogan?

  Always, always, always. You're, you're in a position you didn't earn. You never got back up. You know, I think they should put them right back to where they were at the end of the round because it's one fight, it's not five fights. So if you start it standing up at the beginning of each round, that's a new fight.

• 1:56:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, right.

• 1:56:12Joe Rogan?

  In a way.

• 1:56:13Speaker 03

  Though, what you're pitching, like, how quickly would the UFC go out of business?

• 1:56:17Joe Rogan?

  Real quick.

• 1:56:18Speaker 03

  Thirty, thirty seconds they're on the ground and then it's twenty-four and a half minutes.

• 1:56:22Joe Rogan?

  Dude, I'm a terrible businessman. I would give the fighters more money, I would fuck up the whole business model. I would, I would get rid of the cage, I would have them all fight in a basketball court, just put mats on the ground in the basketball court. I don't think you should have a cage. I think the cage gets in the way, it becomes a way to get back up. Because you press your back up against the cage, you can use it to stand back up again. And you're in the middle of the center of a mat, it's very difficult to get back up and that's realistic.

• 1:56:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:56:50Joe Rogan?

  You know, you're using a foreign object to help you perform.

• 1:56:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, right.

• 1:56:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but, you know, there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in a cage and it's like they lock you in there.

• 1:57:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's just, but I mean, in terms of. Like inspirational performances and things that you, when you see like the human spirit elevated to the, the highest possible place when two very skilled men or women are fighting in a cage where they prepared for this for three fucking months. And then, you know, the referee's like, "Are you ready? Are you ready? Let's go." And it's like, that moment, like, is, it's not, not like anything else in all sports.

• 1:57:31Speaker 04

  I think that's the moment that like people show up for.

• 1:57:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:34Speaker 04

  As they build the intensity. It's the same with like the old Tyson fights or whatever.

• 1:57:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:57:38Speaker 04

  Now it's gonna happen.

• 1:57:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:40Speaker 04

  And there's, there, you can't help but have that feeling once it, you know, and yeah, some fights end up being disappointing, whatever, but there, that moment is always there.

• 1:57:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what we were talking about with greatness because like you could dedicate your whole life. You could fucking get up in the morning at the right time. You could eat all the right foods. You could do all the right training.

• 1:57:59Speaker 04

  Wasn't gonna help you.

• 1:58:00Joe Rogan?

  But then you see that fucking guy, you're like, "Oh, no." There's nothing I can do. I have no chance.

• 1:58:06Speaker 04

  There's no, zero. You know, by looking, just a look in his eye, it was one of the only fighters where you just see the other guy was scared.

• 1:58:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:13Speaker 04

  Usually they at least hold themselves together where they come off like, "Oh, I don't know. This guy looks pretty tough." Guys would fight Tyson and just would start and they'd feel that moment too. "Oh shit, they're letting this tiger out and here he comes." And it was like...

• 1:58:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, we're old enough to remember when he was in his prime and those fights were like executions. You didn't want to pay for the pay-per-view because they were so fat.

• 1:58:32Speaker 03

  I swear, I mean, I mean, Jamie might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart and they cut to his wife and she was crying. And this is when they're coming to the center of the ring and she, by the way, for good reason, like, "This man might kill my husband."

• 1:58:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:49Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like...

• 1:58:50Joe Rogan?

  We're certainly gonna beat the fuck out of him and she knows it and the world knows it.

• 1:58:54Speaker 04

  And the guys were ready to quit. Remember that dude Hurricane or whatever? White kid who fought him?

• 1:58:58Speaker 03

  Pete McNeely?

• 1:58:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, his guy couldn't wait to throw the towel in. He had it ready, like, you know, he was ready to go, "All right, that's it, that's good."

• 1:59:04Speaker 03

  The bell rings, he picks up the towel.

• 1:59:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, you gotta work it up. Save your guy's life.

• 1:59:08Joe Rogan?

  McNeil, he's fucked up now too, when you hear him talk, it's rough, it's rough to hear.

• 1:59:12Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 1:59:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I saw him get interviewed recently. That's the dark side of the sport, of MMA and of fighting. You know, you talk, like I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday, and Johnny Knoxville was knocked unconscious sixteen times.

• 1:59:24Speaker 04

  Jesus.

• 1:59:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's what I said, and I'm like, holy shit, man. And he seems normal, like he doesn't seem like he's got brain damage. Now, when you're talking to guys and you know they have brain damage, they're slurring their words and they're still fighting, and their words all mumble together, like you have no idea how much they're struggling.

• 1:59:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:59:43Joe Rogan?

  Like, and they'll, they're gonna be struggling in a downhill slope for the rest of their life. It's not gonna get better, it's gonna get way worse. Cause the real brain damage occurs like ten years after the injuries. That's when it really sets in.

• 1:59:55Speaker 04

  Really, it starts, like, just keeps?

• 1:59:56Joe Rogan?

  Just keeps getting worse. I mean, there's some therapies that they can do now, there's, uh, like, they, they do, and Knoxville did some of it, like this magnetic therapy that they do that re-stimulates neuron growth and, and oddly enough, mushrooms, like psilocybin has been shown to regenerate.

• 2:00:14Speaker 04

  All of a sudden cure a whole bunch of shit.

• 2:00:15Joe Rogan?

  I know, well, probably always has.

• 2:00:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, right.

• 2:00:18Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 2:00:18Speaker 04

  All of a sudden acknowledging it, yeah.

• 2:00:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, one of the things that's opening the doors for them to acknowledge it is soldiers. Because it's always been kind of like a left-wing thing to be into psychedelics. But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from, you know, bombs blown up and IEDs and concussions, and the only thing that's helping them is psychedelics. So it's kind of like in Texas, uh, former governor Rick Perry has started the Ibogaine initiative. So they're using Ibogaine to help all of these different soldiers, which is ironically the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed Ed Muskie was on when he was running for president.

• 2:00:56Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 2:00:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, remember when he sang Ed Muskie's?

• 2:00:59Speaker 04

  What is Ibogaine?

• 2:01:00Joe Rogan?

  It's from the aboga tree, and it is a psychedelic that is in no way recreational. It is a very difficult experience, it's not fun for anybody, it's like a twenty-four hour trip. I haven't done it, but my friends that have done it say that it's basically like you see your entire life play out before you. You see where all your problems come from. You see where all of your emotional hitches are. Jesus. Yeah, and with addictions, it has an eighty percent, eighty, I think it's eighty-four percent. With one treatment, they quit whatever they're hooked on. What? Not only that, rewires the brain. So the physical pathways to addiction, like someone who's addicted to opiates, gone. Completely severed. So you literally don't have a physical addiction to opiates anymore.

• 2:01:45Joe Rogan?

  So with one treatment, eighty plus percent of people. That's incredible. With two treatments, it's in the nineties. That's amazing. It's amazing, and it's been illegal, you know, since like nineteen seventy in this country. The sweet thing psychedelics. Like a clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry, um, because he's worked with soldiers and because he's worked with a lot of veterans that, you know, and he's a very compassionate and intelligent man, he realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelic stuff. And so he started getting behind this I began initiative, they passed it in Texas, and now they're doing it with soldiers, and they're gonna do it with police officers and, I mean, police officers experience more PTSD, like I, I have a good friend who was a cop in Austin, and he said, and he was also in the military, and he said, what I saw in the military was nothing compared to what I saw as a police officer. Really?

• 2:02:30Joe Rogan?

  He goes, I was seeing death and violence on a, on a daily basis. He goes, when you're deployed, he goes, yeah, you're, you're gonna see some horrible shit, but you're gonna see some horrible shit mixed in, you know, over a course of time, where, you know, you go out and, and things go live, he goes like, every day. Every day you're going directly to somebody who's having the worst moment of their life. And every day you're pulling someone over and they might shoot you. Like, you have no idea, you're, you're pulling up to tinted windows, you don't know what the fuck is going on, you're running the plate, the, the license is expired, you have no idea who's, who's in the car, you don't, you don't know anything. And you've seen all the videos, we've all seen videos of cops getting shot down, like when they're pulling over a car, we've all seen it. And so these guys are living with this fucking PTSD all the time.

• 2:03:14Joe Rogan?

  And then they have to live in real life. They they're supposed to go home and they're supposed to just be a normal dad and a normal neighbor. And their fucking head is just a hurricane of chaos. And Ibogaine has been very beneficial for those people to just just sort of come down. And and try to find the root of all this stuff and and get them off pills and and get them on the straight.

• 2:03:37Speaker 03

  That's great.

• 2:03:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's amazing. I don't know why we got on the mushrooms. Well, Ibogaine. Because during the during the presidential elections, he he started spreading these rumors. And it's in the the documentary. What is that documentary? Is it Fear and Loathing? Gonzo. Gonzo. That's right. In that documentary Gonzo, he talks about it. So he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavett. And he goes, he goes, yeah, he goes, there was a rumor running around that Ed Muskie was on Ibogaine and I knew about it because I started that rumor.

• 2:04:12Joe Rogan?

  What he made the guy.

• 2:04:13Speaker 04

  So good.

• 2:04:13Joe Rogan?

  Sold it to him. So the guy completely cracked. So like this guy was like a frontrunner for the president and he fucking completely cracked. Because everybody thought that he was on drugs. Because Hunter S. Thompson was just running around like saying there's these Brazilian witch doctors who are coming in to treat this guy. It's crazy shit.

• 2:04:30Speaker 03

  That's great.

• 2:04:33Speaker 04

  They were like, and Hunter would know.

• 2:04:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. But it's crazy that he chose Ibogaine too, because Ibogaine is like, it's not a recreational drug and it's not a drug of addiction. It's literally a drug that stops addiction.

• 2:04:44Speaker 04

  But that he was the guy that would have the full, the whole books full of these fucking esoteric drugs you've never heard of. That he mentions in a really casual way, like, of course, four of us stopped to get Ibogaine at the one gas station that sold between needles and nothing. Yeah, sure. No, of course you did.

• 2:04:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it it does help people that have brain damage as well. It's it's supposed to like cause some sort of neuro regeneration. Yeah. There's there's stuff out there that can help people, but the large percentage of these fighters are silently suffering. And we don't ever hear about it.

• 2:05:16Speaker 04

  They say like it's supposed to be that it's like the argument is is because it's, you know, they're not using a glove like that football is supposed to be. I mean, wasn't that the sort of rationale that like you were gonna have less impact in boxing because the boxing gloves?

• 2:05:30Speaker 03

  No, but it's remember this all. It's like the subconcussive blows. It's like it's not necessarily the the one shot knocking you out as much as the repeated. Kind of like small, like little bit of brain

• 2:05:41Speaker 04

  I'm sure that's like, they're all bad for you. You know what I mean? And like a version of

• 2:05:45Speaker 03

  Knocks to the head are not a good thing to be avoided, yeah.

• 2:05:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also what you take in training, too. We're only considering what happens during a fight. If a guy has forty, fifty MMA fights, that's

• 2:05:56Speaker 03

  How many rounds does he have right in the gym?

• 2:05:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, training camp is fucking brutal. And depending upon how intelligent your camp is, like, some people are really smart and they'll spar where they're not hitting each other hard and then maybe one day of the week they go live, but you do it with trusted, you know, they're, they're very close to you. These are people that you care about and love, so they're not gonna try to hurt you on purpose. But sometimes not, like, sometimes you're in a hostile gym and, you know, you gotta spar with people you don't even know. They're from other countries, you have a big name, they're trying to take you out. You know, it's, um, but the, the amount of damage these guys take, I mean, I don't know if football's better or worse. They're all, like, the, the thing about football is the big impacts are way worse. Because when you've got a three hundred pound super athlete

• 2:06:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:42Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking full tilt.

• 2:06:44Speaker 04

  All the way from across the

• 2:06:46Joe Rogan?

  Boom!

• 2:06:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, a running start.

• 2:06:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're getting hit by a truck. And that, but that doesn't, it's, it's not targeted necessarily at your head. So it's like, what, what is better and what is worse, you know? Boxing's bad, you know, it's like, you have less options. MMA's slightly better because if, especially if you're a grappler, you can take guys down and you can beat them up on the ground. But it's ultimately, you're paying a price.

• 2:07:13Speaker 04

  You can fucking live, for sure.

• 2:07:15Joe Rogan?

  But for that glory, for that one moment when they win and the fucking sixteen thousand people are on their feet screaming. There's probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it. And those guys chase that high for their entire life. And then after it's over, they, you know, they feel oddly detached.

• 2:07:31Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:07:31Speaker 04

  And nothing ever rises to that level again.

• 2:07:34Joe Rogan?

  Right, you can make films until you're a hundred years old, you know, you can make great films forever. You can do the thing that you love forever. They have a little window, a little window of greatness.

• 2:07:43Speaker 03

  That's the really tough thing about being an athlete, like I

• 2:07:45Speaker 04

  We were talking to Pete Sampras that time we met, Sampras years ago. And he was like, we were probably, I don't know how, we were thirty, he was thirty-two or something like that. And he was kind of, we were like, oh my god, you know, he had all these fucking, you know, wins and grand slams and he, he had a kind of vaguely like, yeah, he was like, yeah, you guys, like, I'm about to retire. It's, I'm finished.

• 2:08:04Joe Rogan?

  We're, you know, young guys who are, you know.

• 2:08:07Speaker 03

  Just getting started, you know what I mean? Like, we're, and also the thing is, you get better at your job, the more you do it.

• 2:08:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:13Speaker 03

  You know, and so it's that thing with the athlete. Yeah, I was having this conversation the other day. It's like, you have all the physical skills at the beginning, but you become a better, you know, better at your sport.

• 2:08:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:24Speaker 03

  You know, as your skills are declining.

• 2:08:26Joe Rogan?

  The body just doesn't want to do it anymore.

• 2:08:29Speaker 04

  And you've got to just come, it's like become Greg Maddox, you know, and compensate with all the tricks and location and, but like, and that's why that drama of like the aging athlete is so powerful. They still have, it's like, oh, do we still have it in me? Can I still do it? How long, you know, is what I've learned enough to compensate for what I've lost, you know?

• 2:08:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's an interesting story about Vitor Belfort. So Vitor Belfort was, he won the UFC heavyweight tournament when he was 19 years old. That was like the first event I ever worked at in 1997. I mean, he was like, one of the all-time greats for sure. But as he was getting into his 30s, he was starting to decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy. And, boy, did he fucking use it. Okay, because I don't know what his levels were, but they were like superhuman levels. And there was a moment in time for a few years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy, and people referred to it as the TRT Vitor years, because he was fucking terrifying. Because he has the mind of a veteran.

• 2:09:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:09:33Joe Rogan?

  Incredible amount of experience, but now his body is moving like a 25-year-old. And so he was just annihilating people, just lighting people on fire.

• 2:09:43Speaker 03

  So they're not allowed to use testosterone?

• 2:09:45Joe Rogan?

  No, they can't use anything. No.

• 2:09:47Speaker 03

  No, how about peptides? Can they use peptides?

• 2:09:49Joe Rogan?

  Nope, nope, not even peptides. They're trying to take that and, and reform that, but there, there's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what they actually do. I mean, all it's allowing you to do is soft tissue injuries, heal quicker, and optimize your body's ability to produce hormones. So instead of adding exogenous hormones.

• 2:10:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10:06Joe Rogan?

  You're allowing your body to produce them more naturally, and it'll, it just makes you more healthy. For a very unhealthy job and where you're, you know, you're getting hurt all the time. It's, it's gonna be better for the sport, better for the athletes to allow them to all use it. And it's also, there's no long-term damage that's gonna do like steroids where it shuts down your endocrine system. So I hope they reform it, but the idea was that there's so many fucking loopholes and so many people cheat. Big camps used to hire scientists, so they had a scientist on staff that was not only- What did he do? Yeah, exactly. Not only procuring stuff that, that would slip by the test. Cause there's like, you know, the balco stuff with very on the clear. The clear, yeah.

• 2:10:49Joe Rogan?

  There's, there's stuff probably right now that people are using that's slipping through. And there's a lot of experts that have, like, one of the things is animal derived testosterone. So testosterone, one of the, they, they use a carbon isotope test, I think, I believe that's what they use. To figure out where the testosterone came from. So if your testosterone is like at a very high level, they test all your other ratios. They go, well, no, it all seems likely. He's just, he's an outlier. He just has naturally high testosterone. But testosterone that you get from, like synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam. Believe it or not. Yes. Yeah, it's not, it's not animal derived testosterone. So the composite of it varies when they run the tests on it and they can determine-

• 2:11:33Joe Rogan?

  They can determine that it's a yam-based testosterone. It's exogenous, not endogenous. It's the yam and they're fighting, it's not him. But if they could figure out a way to, and there's a lot of proof of concept of this. Can they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources? Bull testosterone? Something like that. Well, the taurine, they, they used to inject Hitler with taurine. You know, Hitler was like a fucking guinea pig for this one doctor who tried a bunch of shit on him. And one of the things they did was like inject him with bull testicles and stuff to try to keep him virile. Yeah, but, but there probably are athletes right now that are using some shit that they haven't figured out yet. So to give them any loopholes at all, they're like, no, no, fucking no loopholes. No IVs, no nothing. No IVs, like vitamins and-

• 2:12:16Joe Rogan?

  Right, but the problem with IVs is you can mask testosterone and, and, and mask- By overflowing the body with liquids.

• 2:12:24Speaker 04

  Oh, oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:26Joe Rogan?

  So then when you piss.

• 2:12:27Speaker 04

  So the ratio is high because like you add more water.

• 2:12:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes, you would just fill them up with saline and then when they go to piss like, nope, clean.

• 2:12:36Speaker 04

  Look at the ratio. It's, yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:38Joe Rogan?

  Because it's like so much water is being processed through the body. That it doesn't have time to show the testosterone. So there's a way to mask it. Especially with like things that you would add to the IV. Um, so there's no, you can, it's only food and approved supplements through like really high level labs like Thorne, like Thorne supplements where it's third party tested. So they don't, they can't do anything. But for a while, they let them do it. And, uh, those TRT Vitor days are my favorite fights to watch.

• 2:13:06Speaker 04

  Did they stop doing fighting because they thought it was like advantaging certain people? Or they, shit happened that they're like, this is fucked up?

• 2:13:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, they, like, look at the difference. That's TRT Vitor on the left and that's him on the right when they made him get off of it. Look at the difference.

• 2:13:19Speaker 04

  Jesus.

• 2:13:19Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's fucking stunning. On the left though, dude, that motherfucker was terrifying. When Luke Rockhold fought him, he told me, he goes, dude, when I stood next to him at the fucking weigh-ins, he had muscles on his teeth. He goes, this fucking dude was so jacked, he was so scared. I was like, what the fuck is he on? He goes, he knew he was on something. It's just, it's cheating. It really is because you can jack your levels way above a normal human beings. Cause that's what a lot of guys, there was a few fighters that were pulled from cards. Because like say if a really high levels like 1100, they were testing like 18, 1900, they were like.

• 2:13:56Speaker 01

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• 2:14:27Joe Rogan?

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• 2:15:12Joe Rogan?

  Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com. People that have never lived before. Right. They were like a science project.

• 2:15:29Speaker 04

  Different species.

• 2:15:30Joe Rogan?

  And they had insane confidence. Insane confidence because they were essentially like a raging gorilla. They were just insanely confident and just so fired up. They couldn't wait to smash somebody because they were just fucking maniacal. They were a berserker. You know, so you, it's not a person anymore. Now you're a science project. It's not, you know, there are rare outliers who, like Tyson, when he was in his prime, these rare physical specimens and like, that's part of the game. But that's God. You know, that's nature. This is not, you know, Balco Labs. And so they won't allow them to do anything anymore. And that's why it's because too many, and Vitor was one of the guys that tested like way over the line. And then they just decided.

• 2:16:09Speaker 04

  Guys are pushing it like, yeah.

• 2:16:10Joe Rogan?

  But that's what they're gonna do. If you say, okay. If you say it's legal, they're just gonna take as much as possible.

• 2:16:15Speaker 04

  Some of it's good, more is better and you know.

• 2:16:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. If you say, oh, you did one CC a week, they're like, I heard five. I heard five CCs. And these guys are just training five times a day and they never get tired and they recover like that. So, and they, they never have to worry about soft tissue injuries because they, they heal like you're a fucking six-year-old. You know, you just, your body just like.

• 2:16:33Speaker 04

  Like fucking Wolverine.

• 2:16:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, man. Well, that's the thing about peptides too, the Wolverine stack. BP 157 and TB 500. I don't know if you ever get injured. If you ever get injured, get immediately on BP 157 and TB 500.

• 2:16:47Speaker 03

  I didn't hear about TB 500, which, what's that one?

• 2:16:49Joe Rogan?

  Thymusin beta 500.

• 2:16:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 2:16:51Joe Rogan?

  It's in conjunction with BPC 157. It is a fucking phenomenal stack. And it just really helps injuries.

• 2:16:57Speaker 03

  I didn't know they called it the Wolverine stack.

• 2:16:59Joe Rogan?

  That's what they call it, the Wolverine stack, yeah. Cause you fucking heal incredibly well, like you like it quickly. I was talking to a pro football player, pulled his hamstring. He's like, dude, I, I shot that shit right into my hamstring for two weeks and I was right back on the field.

• 2:17:10Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:17:10Joe Rogan?

  I was like, that's nuts.

• 2:17:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:12Joe Rogan?

  I go, what is a normal rehab? He goes, three months. He goes, in two weeks, I was back on the field. I go, what the fu-? He goes, I don't know how bad the injury was. He goes, but to me, it's like, fuck. I pulled my hamstring, I'm fucked now, for X amount of days. He goes, and two weeks later, I was playing full tilt. Like, that's nuts.

• 2:17:28Speaker 03

  And going right into the area of the injury.

• 2:17:30Joe Rogan?

  Right into it. Some people think you don't have to do that. They think it's, you know, systemic, so you just like stick it in your fat, on your, on your side, but he's like, no. And most athletes will tell you, the best benefit is local. Shoot it locally into the area. And it just has just-

• 2:17:44Speaker 04

  Like, uh, cortisone or whatever, or is it, what is the, um-

• 2:17:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, cortisone, but cortisone just masks it.

• 2:17:50Speaker 04

  That numbs it or whatever, yeah.

• 2:17:51Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, it, it has a tendency, if you do it too many times, to weaken tendons.

• 2:17:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and so it could actually exacerbate the problem, because it takes away the pain.

• 2:18:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:18:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it takes away the pain, but, I mean, you know, then there's the enhanced games that are coming out in Vegas this year, where they're like-

• 2:18:07Speaker 03

  I know, my, my friend had that idea a long time ago. He was like, you should just do the, the, the drug Olympics for cash. He goes, do it in Vegas for cash. And then, then the enhanced games came, Scott Burns, I sent him a tape, I was like, they're doing it.

• 2:18:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:20Speaker 04

  And it's just like, all bets are off.

• 2:18:22Speaker 03

  Let's see what a human being can do.

• 2:18:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I, that's what I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs, it was one of the most exciting times in baseball.

• 2:18:32Speaker 03

  It was pretty exciting.

• 2:18:33Speaker 04

  That's why they didn't do anything. They knew it was not a fucking mystery to anybody.

• 2:18:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:37Speaker 04

  But Avery's tuning in, look at the Bash Brothers.

• 2:18:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:40Speaker 04

  Baseball on a strike. You know, they were almost fucking destroyed that league and then people started watching.

• 2:18:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, they brought it back, yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:46Speaker 04

  And then Bonds is like, well, these two fucking guys are hitting this many home runs. I'm the best player in baseball, which he was.

• 2:18:53Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 2:18:53Speaker 04

  And when he did it, it was lights out.

• 2:18:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:55Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? He had a year where he only swung and missed 26 times. Hundred and sixty-two games, three and a half at bats a game, only swung and missed when he's, I mean, that's just, you know, and, and yeah, McGuire get like, just like, move his wrist to get the ball out of the park. And it was like, it was fun to watch.

• 2:19:13Joe Rogan?

  And when people say like steroids don't make you a better athlete.

• 2:19:15Speaker 04

  Oh, they don't mean it be don't make you a better athlete.

• 2:19:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:19:18Speaker 04

  But if you're a fucking Barry Bonds.

• 2:19:20Joe Rogan?

  If you're already an elite athlete, yeah, it makes. If you let John Jones do all the juice he wants. Oh, my god. He'd be fighting until he's fifty and fucking people up. If you say, John, we've, we've, we've really come to our senses, like this sport's all about excitement. Want to give the people what they want, give people, let people make informed choices based on their own discretion. Oh, it's lights out. Welcome back. Then all of a sudden, John looks like Vitor in that picture. He'd be undefeated until fifty. By the way, John beat Vitor when Vitor was in his prime and Vitor caught John in a full arm bar, totally locked his arm out, hyperextended, popped it, went backwards. You could see the video of it. His elbow is going that way and wouldn't tap and then beat him in the next round. With one arm? Yep, one arm. Fuck, his arm was fucked for like a year after that.

• 2:20:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Give that man some steroids. Let's see what he can do. Steroids, let him be the king of the world. Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:20:13Speaker 04

  The dream team, it's like, you know, the first time the, the, the pros went to the Olympics, whatever, the year's ninety.

• 2:20:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:20:18Speaker 04

  Won every game by seventy points.

• 2:20:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:20Speaker 04

  It wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot of fun.

• 2:20:22Joe Rogan?

  It was fun to watch. For that made sense though, because like these other people are being compensated in their countries.

• 2:20:27Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, I had no problem. And then by the way, now with Scott Memorial, that last Olympic championship was, that was a great game.

• 2:20:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:33Speaker 04

  Against France. That was fabulous, you know? I mean, yeah, they, they're, they're gonna wreck some smaller countries and stuff, but, okay, you're playing pros, they're playing pros. The whole definition of amateurism has gotten a little bit like, you know?

• 2:20:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:20:45Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's like, people find like a convenient definition of it according to what's their, like you see in college sports is changing and stuff like, like, I got no problem if you're gonna apply the rules evenly, but sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse to like, for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the TV. You know, like, no, no, you guys, you're getting, you're getting education.

• 2:21:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:02Speaker 04

  It's like a little bit like, yeah, you know, education, you guys are making a lot of money because people want to see Nebraska play.

• 2:21:08Joe Rogan?

  It's exploitation.

• 2:21:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:21:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and I'm glad they've changed that with college sports. Because these guys are the reason why you're filling up the seats. And they deserve that money.

• 2:21:16Speaker 04

  And not even one of them's gonna be in the NFL.

• 2:21:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:18Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? Some of them, that's their window to make that fucking money. You know what I mean? Like, it's hard.

• 2:21:23Joe Rogan?

  It's hard. And the risk of catastrophic injury is always there.

• 2:21:27Speaker 03

  It's constant.

• 2:21:27Joe Rogan?

  Constant, yeah.

• 2:21:28Speaker 03

  And the metrics for the, it's like, what is it? A two, two and a half year career or something really on average?

• 2:21:35Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 2:21:35Speaker 03

  Depending on your position, but, I mean, it's such a long...

• 2:21:38Speaker 04

  That seems just fair and obvious. You pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger to college, but not to like...

• 2:21:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:43Speaker 04

  You know, come on.

• 2:21:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the great thing about doing something where you're not relying on your body, like acting.

• 2:21:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:21:49Joe Rogan?

  You can, you can kind of do it forever, you know?

• 2:21:52Speaker 04

  Keep going till you lose it, you know what I mean? It's really, yeah, it's great. And it's got its own competitive aspect and it's a lot, you know? But, like, okay, great. If it's, if you get a really better yourself and then the expectation is, well, I gotta do something that's interesting enough that people wanna watch it, well, that's the proposition anyway.

• 2:22:08Joe Rogan?

  How do you guys decide, like, on projects that you choose? Like, I'm sure you have so many options now. Like, what, what makes you say, this is what I'm gonna spend the next six months doing?

• 2:22:18Speaker 03

  It's really, I mean, there are a bunch of different factors, like, like, the director is being the most important one, but, but if you read a script and, and, like, we've read so many thousands and thousands of scripts and written so many scripts and worked on so many movies that, that if, if we read something and it, and it, it's that thing we were talking about earlier, you know? You get that, you get that kind of emotional, something happens when you read it. You go, okay, well, then you, then you pay attention to it, maybe read it again, go, wait a minute. You know, if it, if it moves you in that, in that way, then, you know, ultimately, the big decision is saying yes, because, because you're gonna spend...

• 2:22:57Speaker 04

  It's the last point of which you have total control.

• 2:23:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:23:00Speaker 04

  You know, and then you're in.

• 2:23:02Speaker 03

  Then you're in. And, and you're, and you're in whether it's good or bad. I mean, I've been on those movies where I knew, a month into a six-month shoot, that, like, this is not gonna work. And that is, that is the fucking worst.

• 2:23:16Joe Rogan?

  What is that like?

• 2:23:16Speaker 04

  That's the worst.

• 2:23:17Speaker 03

  It is, I, I came to think of that.

• 2:23:20Speaker 04

  They're gonna shoot us all when it comes out.

• 2:23:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's like, it's all bad. It's like, it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be eighty sixteen hour days in a row. And then, uh, a, a post-production period that's gonna be pretty fraught. And then it's gonna come out and we're gonna get fucking crushed.

• 2:23:36Joe Rogan?

  And then you're gonna have to sell it.

• 2:23:37Speaker 04

  And you're gonna have to walk the fucking plank and sit down with access. You know what I mean? And like, so, saw the movie.

• 2:23:44Joe Rogan?

  How important is that stuff still today? Like, the press stuff? Is that still important?

• 2:23:50Speaker 03

  It is. I don't know to what degree each specific thing is.

• 2:23:54Speaker 04

  It's kinda ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today. And remember, we were saying, I was like, doing this show, it'd be more meaningful than the rest of the shit we do in aggregate to promote this movie.

• 2:24:04Speaker 03

  Like, we spent this whole week in New York doing, you know, I don't know how many interviews, you know, the, the quick ones with all the outlets.

• 2:24:09Speaker 04

  A hundred and five minute interviews, all the, the, the evening shows, the day shows.

• 2:24:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, all, all that stuff. And, and this, just given how many people listen to the show, will be more meaningful. We think, I mean, that's our, we were speculating, but...

• 2:24:24Speaker 04

  Historically, right? If you look at it, that's, because they've changed to like, a- all of it feels kinda produced and forced and advertised. And, and people have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick. And you go on and you do your song and dance and they say a thing, it looks great. And nobody cares. Like, they're looking to go, either because somebody they know says it's interesting, or somebody that they, is trusted. And a trusted person is in like, your, like I said, your feed, right? And it's your friend, or your, your cousin, or it's, or they affix that to somebody, which has become a more rare thing. Like, who's a, like a legitimate neutral arbiter? Right? Who I can't predict what they're gonna say before I go there. There are a few of those, fewer and fewer of those people in the world, even those are proliferation of more and more voices.

• 2:25:09Speaker 04

  And I, it's kinda paradoxical, like, the form of entertainment is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So you're like a seven second, you know, we're an advertising company, we, we do most of the spots that we release, like fifteen second spots, six second spots for social, the ones most people see. And then there's this one form. Which is like long form discussions that are whatever two hours long. And the amazing to me is, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people to pay attention more than, you know, a few seconds. There's a kind of a hunger for that. So there's like this form, and that's why you see these are getting more popular. Obviously have this massive audience. And it's, and it's kind of flying in the face of the whole other trend.

• 2:25:50Speaker 04

  And I think, and I don't know, that it probably has something to do with like, who do I think is authentic? And am I actually going to willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen through and, and that. An argument that people probably do appreciate and understand conversations that have context and nuance. And where there's like a back and forth, they're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of. Give that sort of voice to in their life.

• 2:26:19Joe Rogan?

  It's also the voice of the public too, because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online and people. Just start like saying how great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that. It just takes off organically now.

• 2:26:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, and that has more, more weight than anything. If you feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight. Is go, hey, this is great. You should see it. I'm the same thing. If I hear somebody tell me, like, you know, who I respect, hey, you gotta see that thing. That means more to me than anything, right? Because I believe that. And so if the closer you can get to that, which is why I think the act of A, like telling the same, you know. Like telling the same like story about you should go see the movie to a bunch of people with a certain like limited reach. It's just, it's just not that efficient, but you have to because it's like, well, we sat down with our own interest in Akka. And talked about the movie, you know, and you kind of do that ostensibly because it means a little bit more in that, in that market.

• 2:27:15Speaker 04

  But I think ultimately it's, it's like more and more people see, realize they're being sold to. See through the fucking act and this sort of bullshit of it. They recognize that, you know, you go out and sell every movie. You know what I mean? The good and the bad. And then we got to decide, well, which one, and, and who can you count on? Well, it's. Mostly going to be that like the word of mouth, your friend, and, and now you can see that person in your media experience, you know?

• 2:27:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and I think it's also, we know that when you're sitting down with extra or this thing. Like that's just their job to sit down with people. They're not doing it because they want to.

• 2:27:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:27:48Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's like.

• 2:27:49Speaker 04

  They got told, go talk to that person.

• 2:27:51Joe Rogan?

  And we got told, go talk to them.

• 2:27:53Speaker 04

  So we go do the ritual.

• 2:27:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:56Speaker 04

  And they say the thing they say, and we say the thing we say. And everyone goes home and says, we did our job.

• 2:28:00Joe Rogan?

  That's the benefit of an independent podcast is that like, like with me, if I don't talk to anybody I don't want to talk to. It's just like, I, I, I literally do the whole thing on my phone. I go, oh yeah, that sounds cool. And that's it.

• 2:28:12Speaker 04

  But like that, I think means a lot. At least this person is making this choice. And I've listened to it a bunch and I, I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of the time. So all right, I'll give it a shot. That, you know, it's exactly.

• 2:28:23Speaker 03

  I think also like this format, like at least I know why it, why I started listening to podcasts was because in, in the world, like the divisive kind, the way everybody was talking, these soundbites and all this shit. And, and, and it was just like, the ability to just listen to human beings talk. Often who did, who had different points of view, but like, had a civil conversation.

• 2:28:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:28:47Speaker 03

  Was like, was such a welcome thing, you know, given the, given the kind of the hysterical kind of, you know, frenzy of, of, of divisiveness that's kind of, it just feels, it's just like, you know, the, it's like, if I open my phone and look at the news, I'm like, fuck. It's like, put it down. It's just, it's, it's like, I feel my cortisol level go up. And to actually hear people, be, listen to people I know I don't agree with, but listen to them and just, and just think about it. You know what I mean? I mean, approach life with a little bit of humility. Not, hold on to what you believe, obviously, but, but, but keep listening.

• 2:29:27Joe Rogan?

  It's also, there's not a lot of opportunities in the real world to have long conversations with people. So people are kind of starving for that.

• 2:29:34Speaker 04

  I know. Isn't it funny that this has become the shared cultural, like, we'll listen to that podcast and then actually experience that, like, and also people, why don't people trust the media? Well, because the media doesn't do that. Because they compress it and because the truth, it's money. Because actually doing that's not with money, it's just ratings and the perceived idea that like, well, if you simplify it, or you, you position it one way, that you engender outrage. That's simple, or just, you know, pure one-sided ideas that are, that are simple. You know, but the news used to be, the idea was, look, here's the FCC, we're going to let these networks broadcast their shows and make money on it. But here's the deal, you gotta give an hour of that and lose money on that hour to tell the news and try to tell it objectively.

• 2:30:17Speaker 04

  Then it started to be, no, you gotta make money for that hour too. And if you're gonna make money, that's a different incentive than tell the truth, or report these, or any of those things. And people try to hybridize them, but at the end of the day, you're a more successful reporter if more people watch you because advertisers pay more. And then they're doing the same thing, looking at their data, you know, Graham, what are people watching, what kinds of stories? And, and I think this is simple answers because you're just, you're making it into a profit game. Those incentives are not aligned with

• 2:30:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:30:48Speaker 04

  just trying to get down to like even reporting basic facts.

• 2:30:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was a weird time. It's like we have more access to information than ever before, but so much of it is just horse shit.

• 2:30:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:30:58Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's, it's hard to stay balanced.

• 2:31:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:31:02Joe Rogan?

  And I think that's why it's good to like, listen to the people just talk.

• 2:31:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:31:06Joe Rogan?

  And then you recognize like the flaws in their thinking, you feel ego, you feel deception, bullshit.

• 2:31:14Speaker 04

  It's true. People will reveal themselves. Like, you actually, we actually don't need that many editorialists.

• 2:31:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:18Speaker 04

  To be constantly telling us what to think and how to think. Because people actually have pretty good instincts. You know, if someone's bullshitting, you'll eventually, they'll kinda hang themselves. Like you said, you'll get that vibe. Ah, after a while, he kinda started repeating his shtick and I kinda didn't really talk about what I was wondering about and you form your own, that's like forming your own judgment.

• 2:31:37Joe Rogan?

  Pete Buttigieg actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts. He's like, cause you, you go on there and you have your points, but you'll get revealed over the course of a few hours. Like, you can only stick to these lines.

• 2:31:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, you can only talking points and bullshit for then, and then what happens is people just, like, there was an art to like, look at how great they're communicating. They stick to the message and they do their points. Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds, but any longer than that, it just starts to look like a fucking robot on, you know? And like I said, what we need to follow through with, you know, like, yeah, no, I saw you did the same hand gesture in the same bit with that, but I'm, you know?

• 2:32:14Joe Rogan?

  Sometimes you find out they're full of shit just by having them talk about other things. You know, like, tell me, do you like cooking? You know, like, just like, and then you just see, like, some concocted-

• 2:32:24Speaker 04

  They're thinking, "What makes me look good if, uh, about cooking?"

• 2:32:26Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:32:28Speaker 04

  Well, I'll tell you what, because-

• 2:32:29Joe Rogan?

  What would the focus group say?

• 2:32:31Speaker 04

  That's exactly it.

• 2:32:32Joe Rogan?

  Like, "Do I cook, or do I not?" What, what, what?

• 2:32:34Speaker 04

  Does that make me feminine? Or does it make me open to cultural, you know, it's just like-

• 2:32:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:39Speaker 04

  What do you like to cook, man?

• 2:32:40Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 2:32:41Speaker 04

  I don't cook, you know?

• 2:32:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the other thing about people that are online too much, is they're so concerned with other people's opinions, that they don't have enough time to formulate their own. They're just so concerned with how people are gonna perceive everything you say, that you're, like, handcuffed. You're, like, terrified to misspeak.

• 2:32:59Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 2:33:01Speaker 04

  I think that in general is a real fucking danger. I mean, you were, we were talking the other day, we were saying about, like, one of the benefits of getting older and, and doing this for a long time is, you realize, like, nobody really gives a shit as much about you as you thought. You know, you just kind of, kind of, "Let me fuck, nobody remembers."

• 2:33:17Speaker 03

  You spend your twenties and thirties thinking, like, "This is really important," and then you realize no one fucking cares.

• 2:33:21Speaker 04

  "I'm gonna come off, and what's gonna be people?"

• 2:33:22Speaker 03

  No one actually cares. It's not that big a deal. Nobody, nobody cares.

• 2:33:25Speaker 04

  Most people are mostly worried about themselves and their life. And then, yeah, there's this illusion that they pay a passing moment of attention, or it's in some story or something. It's like, you're fucking staring at it, 'cause it's about you.

• 2:33:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:33:36Speaker 04

  You know, you know, "That guy said that about me." Nobody else really fucking cares.

• 2:33:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And if they do, they're usually fucked up. Like, something's wrong, why concentrate on this other person's life?

• 2:33:45Speaker 04

  It really matters.

• 2:33:46Joe Rogan?

  You're probably trying to ignore your own bullshit.

• 2:33:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:33:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, listen, man, your movie's fucking awesome. Uh, I've loved so much of your, your films over the years, so it's been really cool to be able to have you guys in here and talk about this. It's been great.

• 2:33:58Speaker 04

  It's been fun, thank you very much.

• 2:33:59Joe Rogan?

  Two very normal, nice movie stars. You guys are cool as fuck.

• 2:34:04Speaker 03

  Give us a couple more hours, man.

• 2:34:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:34:07Joe Rogan?

  I enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed the rip, it's fucking great. And, uh, everybody, go see it, it's great. I loved it. Thank you, thanks for being here, all right.

• 2:34:14Speaker 04

  It's a pleasure.

• 2:34:15Joe Rogan?

  Bye, everybody.

• 2:34:31Speaker 00

  It's getting chilly outside. But you know what that means?

• 2:34:37Speaker 00

  It's time to cozy up with Panera Bread. Let's get toasty, cheesy. Oh, hello broccoli cheddar soup in a bread bowl. How about melty? Okay, Chipotle Chicken Avo Melt. It's dipping bread in soupy goodness season. Oh yeah, we are so back. It's Panera season. Order now.

• 2:35:02Speaker 06

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