#2378 - Charlie Sheen

Charlie Sheen is an actor best known for his leading roles in films such as "Platoon," "Wall Street," "Major League," and "Rooftop Killer," and television shows including "Spin City" (for which he won a Golden Globe Award) and "Two and a Half Men." His new book, "The Book of Sheen," is available now. He is featured in the Netflix documentary, "AKA Charlie Sheen," streaming now. Charlie has recently co-founded a new non-alcoholic beer brand called Wild AF, which will be available in October. Born Carlos Estevez, Sheen lives in Malibu, CA, where he grew up.www.charliesheenbook.com www.netflix.com/title/82024990www.wildafbrewing.com PALEOVALLEY. COM/ROGAN OR ORDER ON AMAZON Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up at https://dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD). 21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). Fees may apply in IL. 1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $200 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets that expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 9/29/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Great to finally meet you, man.

• 0:14Speaker 02

  It's great to meet you. It's a trip and, you know, walking in and I'm thinking, is there, how is it possible that our paths didn't cross?

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Well, it's weird.

• 0:24Speaker 02

  All those years. I mean, it's conceivable we were in the same venue or the same building or at the same party or at least something.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Probably. I kind of avoided parties. I avoid basically everything. I avoided parties, I avoided premieres, anything where there's a red carpet, like even if I was in a movie, I wouldn't go on the red carpet, I'd go in through the back door.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't like it.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  I don't like all that fucking, "Look over here, look over here." That is just too fake for me. It just, whatever orgy I have to that flares and I'm like, "I'm going in through the back door, fuck this."

• 1:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I don't blame you.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  I don't like it.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  I don't blame you. They stopped showing me where the back door was because I support a similar entrance thing.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  It's just too weird.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  But it's that, it's, "Look over here, look over here." It's that thing, something happens in that moment.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  And I think it's like, it brings you as close to possibly sterilization as you can get without, you know, surgery.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  I think it's bad for you.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  I think it's like radiation.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Like you could take a little bit of it, but you know, you don't want to be working the x-ray machine your whole life.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  No, no, and then there's always that one lady who keeps calling you back to her.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Right, Charlie, Charlie.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, far left, far left, far left.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  And you've looked at her like seven times already and then I'm out there thinking, "If it took me this many takes to get a scene right, nobody would ever hire me."

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  You wouldn't get past the first day.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Well, they want to get a million pictures just to get that perfect one where there's a little bit of side eye to you, just a little something.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Little purse of the lips, little something.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Right, the one that kind of like you're responding to something.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the one.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then they choose, which one do they always choose? The one that's absolute dog shit.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, the one with your mouth open.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Or your eyes closed.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  What I really don't like is the people who like it. Not that I don't like them, is that I don't wanna ever see that in myself. And so when I'd be around them, I would just go, "Oh, I gotta get out of here."

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Freaking me out. The trappings.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  The trappings, yeah. Yeah, um, I mean, is there, cause it feels like, um, that system's been in place for over a hundred years, right? Is there another, is there another way to do it?

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Probably not.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  No?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  People like it. You know, photographers like it, the press likes it, it's a big thing, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of lights flashing, it seems legit.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  I just, um, I don't, I can never, um, feel relaxed when everybody's yelling.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  You know? It's, that's just...

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Totally unnatural.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  It's completely unnatural.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  The only way that would be happening in real life is if like you were on trial. You know, like you were being paraded in front of a bunch of people, "It's him, there he is, look over here." You know, it's odd, it's very odd.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's almost, it's a form of a perp walk, isn't it?

• 3:25Speaker 01

  A little bit of a perp walk?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  And just a little bit of, uh, a mental illness exhibition.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  You know?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. I just had it for the first time, um, like last, it would've been last Thursday.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  The first time ever?

• 3:39Speaker 02

  No, for the first time in like, uh, in like maybe over a decade, uh, at the Netflix premiere for The Dark, yeah.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  And it was, um, it was kinda cool, like the first, you know, thirty-four seconds. It was like, "Okay, I remember this," and then it was like, "Yeah, I fucking remember this, wow, damn." And then I, like, I'm, I'm in the, just, right, the sun just beating right on my, on my forehead, and it's just, I could feel myself start to sweat. Now I'm questioning the whole outfit.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  You know, the underwear choice, all of it, it's just like, every decision I made leading up to that was completely wrong.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  And, and it's all being documented, you know?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so odd, yeah. What's really funny, at the, when I, when you first walked into the studio, you brought up a tweet that I had sent in 2011. I think this is when you were going crazy.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  And I think this is also when my friend Russell Peters was doing those tours with you.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  And said, "I need to get Charlie Sheen on my podcast." I know it's a long shot, but a boy can dream, everybody knows him, help me hook it up. Well, here we are, 14 years later.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  You know, it takes what it takes, right?

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's funny, because back then, I don't thi- I had no guests. I think I had, Anthony Bourdain was the only, like, real guest that I had had.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was 2011 as well.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  And how many shows had you done by then?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Not that many by then, I don't know.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  So, were you just doing solo shows, just like covering topics?

• 5:05Speaker 01

  I would do it mostly with my friends, mostly with other comics.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  We would just sit and talk shit, and then eventually...

• 5:11Speaker 02

  At like, your house?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was at my house back then, yeah.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  So, it looked nothing like this?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  No, no, no, it slowly had to get out of, it's like, I had too many weirdos that I had to bring by my house, and I have young kids at the time, they were really young, I was like, "This is just too strange, bring these weirdos"

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  "by my house," and, you know, it was just too odd. I was like, "Maybe some people shouldn't know exactly where I sleep."

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Right, right, yeah. And it's interesting, because driving here, I was buried in my phone, just, you know, for, for the right reasons, so I have no idea where we are.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Good.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  So it was kinda like the version of being a blindfolded with a sack over my head, you know?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's probably how we should do it.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Can you imagine, then like, I'm the guy they're blaming for introducing this?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Just put everybody in a blindfold and put them in the back of an SUV, and drive them to an undisclosed location.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  And make the guy drive a few circles around in like, some, you know, neighborhood right over there, yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, um, but we did it, we're here. That, those things that you did with Russell Peters were so fascinating. It was, the whole thing was so fascinating. I watched the Netflix thing, I watched the first episode. And the, the, the whole experience of watching the guy from Platoon, the guy that everybody knows, this is like this gigantic, super cool movie star, hot shots, all these different things, to watch you just, not just...

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Go off the rails with drugs, but like be super open about it. You were like the first guy super open about it, you know, and everybody just embraced it. Instead of it being like, oh, Charlie Sheen's doing drugs, that's so sad. It was like, we love him.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Keep going.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  It was kind of crazy. All the Tiger Blood stuff and winning. Everybody was saying winning all the time and it. What was that like for you? Was that like? Was it the worst kind of reinforcement? Or what, or did it let you like, were you surprised by it?

• 7:10Speaker 02

  That's a great way to describe it. It was, it is, yeah, the worst kind of reinforcement. Yeah, it was like unintentionally or otherwise celebrating

• 7:23Speaker 02

  a guy's demise.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  You know, and, and, and I guess the, the train wreck was so spectacular that there was such a spectacle that they couldn't turn away. But they were also being invited in to, to follow it down the tracks.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  You know, and, and somebody asked me about it and, and, and I, you know, I don't know if I was the conductor, if I was riding the caboose or both simultaneously. It was a trip because thinking back on it, it's, you know, some of it just kind of exists in, in just Polaroid snapshots that kind of drift past through the mist, you know? Other, other moments are in high def, but kind of seen through a tunnel vision. Like, and, and, and it's, it was, there was an energy or it was, there was an energy I tapped into that felt like I was playing a role. But I couldn't figure out if, you know, what the move, what the plot was. Who my co-stars were.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Where somebody, you know, somebody show up with like a page one rewrite.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  That's what we fucking need, you know? Um, and it, and it got away from me and, and had it not been encouraged, I think it could have been curtailed. It could have been shut down a lot sooner.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Right, but you become kind of captured to the image.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  And there was something that, and just recently, something I stumbled onto, um, it's, um, I was, I was in, in some way, um, I was being a bully. It had a bullying kind of energy about it, you know, and I've never been that guy.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  How so? How so like bullying?

• 9:03Speaker 02

  The way I was attacking people and the way I was challenging people. I was like the tough guy on the block and had all these soldiers, had this called cadre behind me. And it was like, you know, inviting people into the ring. I've never been in the ring. What are we doing, you know?

• 9:16Speaker 01

  You're on coke.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  It's total cocaine behavior.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Among other things, um.

• 9:22Speaker 01

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• 11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think there was a whole testosterone component as well. That was out of hand, just out of control. Because there's, you know, what do they recommend? Like a quarter-sized dollop and like every other day? No, there's a line in the book where I say, "I was slathering that shit on like a fucking Pons commercial."

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Oh, so you were using the cream?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, which is hard to measure.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  It's not just hard to measure, it gets on other people.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  I read this story about this guy who is on TRT cream and his child started like showing signs of premature development.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  And they realized that this kid's testosterone level was through the roof. Because it's through the dermis, right? It's through the skin. So he's getting it on his arms, and then he's hugging his child, and the kid is getting juiced.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Like, what were the kid's numbers? Did we know?

• 12:51Speaker 01

  We don't know.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Like in the 70s?

• 12:52Speaker 01

  I don't think they released that, but they said that it probably permanently affected the kid's development.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because this kid is like experiencing puberty at three. You know, you're getting bombarded with testosterone.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  While your dad is holding you.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Insane. Insane. Is that part of the reason they recommend like an inner thigh application?

• 13:14Speaker 01

  I guess then the only person who would get it is the person you're having sex with.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  That wouldn't be so good for her either.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Or your horse.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Or your horse. It might be good for the horse.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  So there was testosterone and cocaine together at the same time. That's, that sounds like a combination of hubris.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  And a lot of rage.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  And a lot of rage.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Lot of rage. But the rage, I think, um, it's, it's interesting, cause when you finally get some distance from something, you start to realize that, that it wasn't really so much about what you said it was about in the moment. And I, and I'm, you know, really realizing it was, wasn't about the job, wasn't about Chuck. It was, it was about all the stuff in my personal life, you know? It was about trying to just be, be a certain guy at work, be a certain guy at home, and then just never having the time to be a certain guy with me. And I just, I just couldn't, I couldn't find any place to, to find, find any refuge, or solace, or any type of, just a moment to breathe, to just to decompress, you know?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  That's so important.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I, there was a, it's not in the book, because I can't really, I don't remember it well enough to put it in the book, and that was kinda how I decided what's in there and what's not, right? Um, or if something just isn't true, it's not in the book, and so, um, but it, it, um, you know, I was, I was, I was trying to just kind of, you know, like, you know, I, I, I, I went through two divorces and, and had four children during, during that run of eight years, you know? And so, um...

• 14:49Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  It's insane, yeah. And, and they both, you know, they, they fell apart for, for married reasons and whatever, and, and, but there, there wasn't time to heal the last one before the next one

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  kicked off. And, but that's all on me. You know what I'm saying? That's all on me, making those decisions.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  That's one of the through lines in the book, is that it like, really comes down to really being all about choices, you know? Um, but then, um...

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and, and, and, but it's just, for, for it to be, just talking about the bullying stuff, you know, for it to be so, so directed at a guy who, let's like, if you really break it down, what did he really do to me? He created this environment with a dream character in, in, in, in an amazing show, so people tell me, right? That, that, that was, you know, the toast of the town, right? And, and all he asked from me was to just, like, you know, just show up, be responsible, know your lines, hit your marks, do your fucking job, you know? That, those were the only demands.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Essentially, the stuff I told him before I took the job that I was going to do. So, and then, I turned it into that, you know? It's really difficult to really look back on that and figure out why it got that far, how it got that far.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  I can help you out.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Testosterone and cocaine.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Testosterone and cocaine, yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  You know, I have you having all kinds of conversations with people in your head that'll tell you exactly what's, what you're doing is correct.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Did you ever talk to Chuck? Did you ever, like, Chuck Lorre, I'm like, sorry?

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it was, yeah, no, that was, I was really grateful we were able to do that.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was carrying that around for too long.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  He hired me for a show he had a few years ago called Bookie with Sebastian Maniscalco, right?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's right.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I came in and did, I played myself, did a few scenes, did a cameo, you know, did some fun stuff, and just back on a set with Chuck, and, and it was like, it was, it just felt like it, like it, like it, like it did in the, in the early parts of...

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Well, good on him for not holding a grudge, too.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  That's, that's awesome.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Sorry, I lost that thought earlier.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  I was like, where the hell was I going?

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Well, it's a, it's a complicated thing to think about, like, why did I go off the rails? You know, it's like, and it's very reasonable. Here's the thing, I don't think anybody but Charlie Sheen knows what it's like to be Charlie Sheen, and in my estimation, there are a scant few people that have become massive superstars at a young age and came through it sane.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  I don't know anybody. Everybody, I mean, I know people that have regained equilibrium and got their footing back and now they're on the right track. But no one gets through without a hiccup. It's, everyone kind of goes crazy because you're living in this completely alien world that no one can help you navigate.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Even if you've watched the people closest to you go through it most of your life and like, just like, right over there.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Like, in the next room.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  Or in the same room.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Right, and a bunch of your friends.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  It's still bananas. It's still an alien world that you live in that no one that you run into during the day except the people like that can understand.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Which is like, people are always like, "Why do celebrities just hang out with each other?" Well, because to them, they're the only people that are normal.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  They're the only people that like, "I get it, I can't go to the supermarket either. I get it, I, you know, I get fucking TMZ'd at the airport as well."

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  It's like, it's normal for them. Because everybody else is like, "Whoa, it's Charlie Sheen." And they're just captivated. Like, you kind of need to be around people that understand what that life is like. But the problem is, they're all going crazy too.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Right, yeah. Yeah, it's not, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a great support group, to a degree. You know what I'm saying? I think you can rely on them for the things that you have in common.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  But maybe take the more complicated shit, just, just right across the street.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, to the experts.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can't rely on them for everything.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Because they're going through it too.

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Can I just get a tissue?

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Jimmy, you got a box?

• 19:28Speaker 01

  No worries. Getting sweaty? Is it hot in here? Turn the AC on.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  No, I'll tell you exactly what happened. I got, I lost that thought and then I tried to cover and I realized, "This is, he's not buying this." And then I started sweating. And I started fucking sweating, so I'm just gonna...

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Losing, it's normal, man. Just say you lost your thought, it's all good.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  It happens all the time. It happens to me, too.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Why is that though? Is our brain already trying to figure out the next thing that's going to attach to it? And by doing so, it took that, the main thing and just dismissed it?

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Perhaps.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  It's also, brains are just not that good.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  You know, they're, they're pretty good compared to chimpanzees and dogs and stuff like that. But you know, they have a lot of issues.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Just like what you're talking about, your memories. Like my, my memories of my whole life are like a series of blurry snapshots that I can go, "Oh yeah, then we went there. Oh yeah, that happened."

• 20:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  "Oh yeah." There's very few memories that I have that are like rock solid memories.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  I totally get that. And there's a little thing in the book where I talk about memories are tricky.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  And is it, is it a story someone told me? Is it, is it, is it me in that moment? Or is it, is it a, you know, a creased photo I saw on an old album in the seventies or eighties?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Is it, was the memory given to me or, or did I, did I create it?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, and there's also the, the real possibility that you have false memories. And people do that all the time. And they've, they've even shown that they can introduce memories into people's minds. And, and then with enough sort of encouragement or revisiting it, that person will accept it as a pure memory.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  That it actually happened to them?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they'll, they'll talk about it like outside of that. And they'll have no knowledge that it was a false memory.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's just not a good system. It's a system designed to keep you away from scary things. Like there's the wolf, "Oh, get away from the wolf. You know wolves are bad." "I remember, I remember wolves are bad." "That's the spider that's poison. Get away from that spider. That spider is poison." But like day to day, everyday, normal shit, it's like, how much of a memory does it really need to keep? It's just, your brain's just not that good.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  And then, and then even, and then so do certain, do, um, certain memories then get overlaid with, um, a, a newer version of that?

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, they get narratives.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  They get narratives.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  And you, and you start repeating the memory and your memory becomes of you repeating the memory.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  So it's like, you don't even really have the memory anymore. You have, you know how to say it.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  Okay, didn't that happen with, um, with that one Kaczynski witness?

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Did it? Was the Unabomber witness?

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, because that's why the first composite that was put out really ultimately wound up looking nothing like the actual guy.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was a thing that, yeah, there was a thing where her memory was corrupted by a different description from somebody else.

• 22:32Speaker 01

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• 23:17Speaker 01

  because they offer a 60-day money-back guarantee. Go to paleovalley.com and use the code ROGEN to get 20% off, or find them on Amazon. Give them a shot, and you'll see why everybody's hooked. Well, there's also the factor that the Unabomber was such a traumatic event that this person was probably super freaked out, which is when your memory's the worst.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why eyewitness accounts of murders and chaos, they're really bad. They're really bad, very unreliable.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  There's some really, really awful percentage about, even when they wind up in a courtroom.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Like the determining, like the final nail from the person. That guy, that it's like sometimes it's as high as like 60% that they're just wrong.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then they'll convince themselves that they're right because they've already said it. So then the ego gets involved. And then, you know, it's just traumatic events leave you, you're in a high state of anxiety, and you're not thinking clearly. You're freaked out. And you don't, like, when they have events, like, say like 9/11.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Um, if you were anywhere near that and you saw like people jump off the buildings and and fall to their deaths or like your memories of that are probably really clear because it was fucking crazy.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  But your memories of people that you might have saw that were running away or maybe you saw a guy in a van and you looked fishy or maybe this or maybe that it's like and then a few days go by and you're you probably haven't slept well you're all freaked out. Not your memory is probably a mess. It's probably filled with the news now and then there's other people's eyewitness accounts and and you know, you don't know what the fuck happened.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  You you you know, you obviously like you see someone die, see someone jump off a building, you're gonna remember that. But there's some stuff that it's just our mo- you know, this is one of the scariest things about transhumanism is that it's really appealing. And the idea that they give you a little hard drive in your brain and now from now on, every time you want a memory, you can go just like, you know, you look on your phone, like your iPhone on this day in two thousand seventeen, you're like, oh, look at us. Oh, that's cool. You're gonna be able to do that in your brain, you know, and the way that we're gonna buy into it is because our memory sucks.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  That's how they're gonna sell it to us.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, do you remember your phone number when you were a kid?

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Um, no, but I remember my address because it rhymed.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was seven two one two Birdview Avenue, Malibu.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  You used to remember your phone number. What happened? It goes away because your memory sucks.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Right. I I I I know my parents' number because they still have a landline.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Oh, they're still rocking the landline.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, they are. Yeah, and they have an answering machine.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  During dinner, they haven't really turned it down.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  People start talking in the background?

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. But it's just part of it. It's part of the experience.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  They're rocking a landline with an answering machine in twenty twenty five. That is.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  It's probably the way to do it. I used to love the answering machine. Would you come home, the light would be flashing like someone likes me. Somebody called.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  It was cool. It's like you had a dog coming home to wait like to to visit you when you came home. Like, oh, look.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  It's like in Deuce Bigelow when it's like he's at his lowest point and the thing in the light is never blinking.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  I forgot about that.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  You have no, no new messages.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a wild time where you could get phone calls. That's the other thing is like you got famous before the internet too. Which is a different world. It's a different world because there's not that many of you. There's way less famous people. There's way more famous people now.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  You got famous, like super duper famous at 21 years old with no internet.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Trip out, yeah, I know.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  How does anybody expect you to come out normal? Jesus Christ.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  And it's, and you try, you can't really even explain to someone that, that, that wasn't around during all that. You can't really explain what it felt like. Cause they, they look at it as the things that were missing. And, and there, there wasn't anything missing.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  It was about having to really be engaged in everything you were doing. You know, you had to show up to, to, to, to, you know, to gain, to, to get a like. You had to enter the building.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  You had to go to, on a talk show. You had to attend a junket. You, you know what I'm saying? And you couldn't, and nobody knew. Nobody knew what the behind the scenes of your movie looked like until, you know, years later on the DVD feature or, or the VHS feature.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  That they finally saw some of that stuff.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  It wasn't, it wasn't all, all access 24/7, 365.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  And for some people, they can't leave it alone. They, they have to live stream during the day. They're live streaming from their trailer. They're live streaming on, in their car on the way home. They're like.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, what is that about?

• 28:18Speaker 01

  They're nuts. They're just locked into this weird new world that we're living in.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  But is it, I mean, is it because there's genuinely people that are tuning in with enthusiasm? That are looking forward to that live stream in the car ride home? Or because the person, or is it a combination?

• 28:36Speaker 01

  I think it's those things and it's also that thing that you said that you didn't ever get, they're scared of. You didn't ever get alone time. Just, just time to decompress and think. Just be by yourself. No phone, no TV, just fucking sit on the couch and just like ca- catch your breath.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  And they don't want that. They're scared of that.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  I like it.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  They're just constantly engaged with something.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  I like entire days of that.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Ooh, that's nice.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Alone on the couch.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Watching TV.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  That's nice. It's nice to just shut off, right? It really is. It's, uh, all work, no play. Not good.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Not good at all.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Not good. Bad for you. And bad for your work, too, because it makes you just kind of, it gets dreary. You don't, you don't have the same enthusiasm for it anymore. You know, it's like you need discipline, but you also need enthusiasm.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  You know what I was gonna say earlier? Thanks, okay, all right, the memory just, you know, dropped another token in the, in the, in the slot.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Is that, uh, now, now, it's, you know, it doesn't even connect.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  It doesn't? Let's find out.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Well, no, then I, I actually forgot it again. How about that? Is that fucking nuts?

• 29:50Speaker 01

  It's normal. It's normal. When you, um, when you first got Platoon, did you have any idea like what the fuck was gonna happen?

• 30:00Speaker 02

  I didn't. I didn't.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Is that, for, for people today to, to understand how big that movie was, because it was, it was one of the very first realistic war movies. And I think very importantly, it was done by Oliver Stone, who was actually a veteran of the Vietnam War. You remember what you wrote down? What you, uh?

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Just that, that piece, yeah. I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna forget it again.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Pardon. Sorry.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  But that, it was, it was a different kind of war movie, you know?

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it, um...

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Much in the lines of your dad's movie.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  You know, and that, that was a very different kind of war movie as well.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, Apocalypse from Here, Platoon, you know, boots on the ground.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  The script didn't read like it was going to be a masterpiece. The script read like a, like a, kind of like a docu-drama sort of movie of the week. It didn't, didn't read that script and say, oh, wow, okay, yeah, this is the one. People are gonna really, wow, they're gonna worship this thing. It didn't, the dialogue was very clipped and very, um, very specific. Um, it, it, you kind of never really knew where you were in the script, in the scene descriptions. You know, it, it, the script was so lean, I think it was like barely a hundred pages.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Really?

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, so, but I, I, I didn't realize sort of, um, what, what we were doing until we were actually doing it. Usually I can read a scene and get a sense of, you know, what my responsibilities are gonna be, or how we're gonna break it down, or at least, you know, how, how I'm gonna see it on the screen. And I couldn't, I couldn't do that with Platoon. Because all the terrain, all the scenes, everything kind of felt very similar, you know?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Really?

• 32:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the original title was The Platoon.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  You think it's as big a hit if he keeps the "the"?

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think it matters. It's a great movie.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  It's a great movie, it doesn't matter.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  But we started to feel it as, as we got deeper into it. And, and Oliver did something brilliant where he, he decided to film it in continuity. Like from page one, day one, all the way to the final day was the final page. And that, and that gave us a chance to like, when something was finished, you were done with it. And, and you didn't have to know how you were gonna react, or how you already reacted to something that hadn't happened yet.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  And when people died in the movie, they got sent home. They were just, like, the next day, they were just gone. I guess he wanted us to feel that sense of just someone, yeah, gone, that loss, that, that, you know, sadness.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  And I'm not saying that I, I would know how that felt in the real thing, but we bonded really. You know, pretty, pretty, yeah, we were bonded in a way that, um, because we were the only people that we had in the middle of that country, in the middle of that jungle, in the middle of that movie. Um, so you really missed somebody when they were suddenly gone.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  I would love to ask, I mean, I've had Oliver on a couple of times, but I would love to ask him what it's like to make a movie about a war that he was starring in. And like, what kind of bizarre mental conflicts?

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, did, did, he didn't get into any of that stuff?

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Not really. I mean, he talked a little bit about his experience in Vietnam, but I don't think we really talked about... Did we, we talk about the making of Platoon?

• 33:40Speaker 01

  We got so heavy into the JFK assassination, we hardly covered anything else.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Oh, got it.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Especially the last time he was on. The last time he was on was when they were doing that Showtime JFK document. It was a Showtime thing, right? Wasn't it?

• 33:54Speaker 02

  I think it was, yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, where there was a multi-part piece that he put together.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Saw it, yeah.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  His recall is insane. It's insane.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  It is.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  You have a conversation with him, he's pulling up dates, he's got no bo... I mean, how old is Oliver at this point in time?

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Um, upper seventies. I just turned sixty, so if he was in...

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Seventy-eight.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  He's seventy-eight.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Seventy-eight years old, rock-solid memory. I mean, rock-solid.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  The dude was just pulling up dates and names, and Alan Dulles did this, and Harry An... Well, it was just like, the entire Warren Commission report is like citing different passages in it. It's bananas.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  That's deep, yeah, wow. Has he landed on, like, what, can he, can he point to, or is it, is it several factors?

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Well, I think anybody can point to, but there is a lot of people that wanted him dead, and for sure, there was a lot of fuckery going on with the Warren Commission, for sure.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  There's a lot of nonsense with the autopsies, there's a lot of nonsense with the single bullet going through both him and Connolly, and leaving more bullet fragments in Connolly's wrist than that magic bullet was missing, the one they found. It's like bullshit. The story's filled with bullshit. And no one really knew how much bullshit it was until, um, they had that video that they played of the Zapruder film on the Geraldo Rivera Show.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  When Dick Gregory came on, and who was a comedian, which was pretty wild, came on and had the footage of the Kennedy assassination. Everybody sees Kennedy's head go back into the left, and you're like...

• 35:28Speaker 01

  What, what happened there?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  And you immediately apply just simple, common physics to it.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  You know, especially anybody who's ever fired a weapon.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Also, it clearly looks like he got shot in the chest, too. Like, when he grabs his neck.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Clearly looks like he got shot right there.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  And there's always that talk about doing a trach. They did a trach.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  But you know, there's two different autopsies. There's the autopsy in Dallas that says it's an entry wound. And then there's the autopsy in Bethesda, Maryland, that says it's a tracheotomy.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, two different autopsies.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Make up your mind.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it also looks like by the time they got to Bethesda, they kind of glued his head back together again. Or at least put the pieces back to take a photo of it. It's like more was missing from what they were talking about in Dallas than the Bethesda.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  That's the shot where the gloved hand is like, looks like it's pointing, right?

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yes. There's a great book called Best Evidence by David Lifton, and he was an accountant. And they, he had some sort of assignment involving the Warren Commission report. And so he decided to do is read the entire thing. And so in the reading of the entire thing, he finds so many contradictions, so many things that don't make any sense, that he starts becoming obsessed. And then he finds out how many people who are witnesses to the assassination wind up dying mysteriously.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  It's off the charts.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Off the charts.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Like 95% of them?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  All those people that were hanging around, like a giant ton of them.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Died in car accidents, weird fucking...

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Who was the guy in the train tower? Guy named Bowers, right?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Who was Bowers?

• 36:58Speaker 02

  He was the guy that saw Badge Man, he saw people behind the Knoll, he saw the exchange of the rifle, he saw all kinds of shit. He died, uh, I think he had a heart attack on a train track and then...

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Also got hit by the train. I could be wrong, but it was one of those type of things, you know?

• 37:16Speaker 01

  But of course, yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  And then, but wasn't it, what was the, who, who's the guy who's standing at the, when the curb explodes, like, near the underpass?

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that's the guy, that's the reason why they had to come up with the magic bullet theory.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Is it Teague? No, what's his name?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  I don't remember. Did he die weird?

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  I don't know if he died weird, but he was hit with a ricochet.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  And because they knew that the overpass, that's why they had a...

• 37:38Speaker 02

  That adds a bullet, yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yes, they had to add that, and they go, okay, how do we fix this?

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Right, what about...

• 37:43Speaker 01

  We said only one guy did it, it's only three shots, so how do we come up with a reasonable excuse? And they came up with the magic bullet.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I, and I think the, uh, the, the architect of that was, was Specter, you know?

• 37:58Speaker 01

  I think it was Aron Specter. Yeah, I think it was his idea. The wait is over. Two pound for pound kings, one epic showdown. Canelo versus Crawford going toe to toe at last. And DraftKings Sportsbook is in your corner from the opening bell to the final blow. From the opening bell to the judges' final call, DraftKings has you covered with odds on knockouts, total rounds, method of victory, and more. Never bet on a fight before? Easy. Open the app, look for something simple like who will win and make your pick. And it's not just Fight Night. Football is on tap this Sunday, too. One app, all the action. New customers, this one's for you. Bet $5 to get $200 in bonus bets instantly

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• 39:31Speaker 01

  They just bullshitted people. But back then, you can get away with that.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  You know, it was pretty easy to just bullshit people.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  And you see all the additional cameras, like the Bushka lady, for instance, right? And, and all that stuff, just confiscated and never, yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Well, they had the Zapruder film for a long time. I think Time Life had it. And then somehow or another Dick Gregory got it.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Was it ever released with missing frames? Wasn't there the jump cut when he goes behind the sign and then it jumps? Cause they, didn't they take out the fatal head hit at some point?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  And then tried to sell that?

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Perhaps. They probably did at one point in time. But now, obviously, you could see the whole thing. And then it's also been AI-enhanced. I don't know if you've seen the AI-enhanced one.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  I haven't, no.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  It's grisly.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  It's even more gruesome.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  It's grisly. I mean, I think he was shot from multiple angles simultaneously. That's what I think. I think he was shot both from the back and from the front. And I think Lee Harvey Oswald, if he wasn't involved, he certainly wasn't innocent. He was probably the guy that they were gonna frame it on.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  But I think he was in on the whole thing. Anyway, I think he killed a cop afterwards as well.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Tippett? No, what's his name? Yeah, yeah. Have you ever read that thing about, um, cause Tippett's nickname back at the precinct was JFK? Did you ever read this thing? Then they show the side by side of how much they really look like each other.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 41:00Speaker 02

  So they're saying he was the body they used for the transfer when they flew with the empty coffin, you know, all that stuff.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, I mean, it is so, there's so many just, you know, warrants to travel down.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  And there's so many angles to explore.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  There's too many. There's so many rabbit holes to go down.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  We were introduced to it as kids, cause Dad played both Kennedys. So we were seeing documentaries at like, you know, I would have been 10 or 11, Emilio was 13 or 14. And so we've been involved in this thing for a lot longer than we should have been.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. We had access to this stuff. And so, um...

• 41:39Speaker 01

  It was just nuts that no one was brought to justice. And we know for sure more people were involved than Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald. There was more people involved and no one was brought to justice and they got away with it. We don't wanna think that they get away with things like killing the president, but they did.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  In broad daylight.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And blaming it on a lone gunman, a lone nut.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Who, who, they already had a full description and, and, and rapture and rundown and everything about it.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  They knew everything about it. They printed articles about it before it was even over.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  And then the Jack Ruby thing, where Jack Ruby goes completely insane in jail after he's visited by Jolly West, who is the head of MKUltra.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Who is like routinely dosing people with acid.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  He cooked, Jolly, Jolly West cooked Jack Ruby's brain in jail.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  It just left him insane.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  He's the guy from, um, what's the book that it's?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Chaos.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  From Chaos, yeah. I actually read Chaos before it got all the attention.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Really?

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, a friend of mine gave it to me and I was, and I, alright, I'll, I'll read a couple pages and I was like, oh.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. This is, this is, yeah.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  This is one of the best books.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Different take.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  But I'm curious how you felt about the documentary they did about it.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  I didn't watch it.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  Okay, I.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  I thought it was gonna be too quick. Ninety minutes, I didn't think was like enough times, only ninety minutes, right?

• 43:02Speaker 02

  I thought it was the first episode.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Oh, you thought there was gonna be more?

• 43:06Speaker 02

  So I watched it, sort of like a data gathering thing that you usually do with the first episode and kinda just seeing what the director's doing and what kinda stuff they're laying out early.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  So, and then when it ended and I didn't see that second episode with the timer, right?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  And I was, oh, that's, and I thought it was a complete, uh, I thought it radically underserved the book.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe they could try again. They need to, that needs to be like an eight-part, two-hour apiece series.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's so nuts. The story is so nuts. Just the provable actual facts are so nuts. That very likely Charles Manson was a CIA asset, very likely they had groomed him when he was in prison and taught him mind control techniques when people were high on acid. Taught him how to be sober but pretend he's on acid and how to interact with these people that are on acid and shape their mind and even get them to commit murder. All of which is fact.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's, I would say it's insane, but so much of it is, I don't wanna say provable, but, but, but, but has enough supporting evidence to make a compelling case. And I love that the guy starts out, just like a, you, you know, just a kind of a normal celebrity assignment for Premier Magazine, right? Yeah, I've been on that magazine. I had that cover twice. My story didn't wind up like that.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  I think that it was a story for a magazine and it was just about the anniversary of the murders.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  That's what it was, yeah.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  You know, just give us a piece, you know, so people go, wow, crazy, 25 years later, wow.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  And then he gets obsessed and he starts realizing, well, this guy was full of shit and that guy was corrupted. Oh my god, look at this and, hold on, who's Jolly West? You know, like, what's MKUltra? This is real? Freedom of Information Act, get the documents. Oh my god, Operation Midnight Climax? The government was running whorehouses? They were running whorehouses and using two-way mirrors and dosing Johns and filming them? And this has to do with Manson? Like, what, what the fuck was going on?

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  And then you realize that it was all a psy-op to try to demonize the peace, love, and stop war movement. And that what they really wanted to do was stop the anti-war movement and do something to curb the cultural change that was happening. And so their strategy was to turn hippies into murderers.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  It, it, it kinda worked.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  It kinda worked.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  It kinda worked.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's a long way to go, but it, I think it had the effect they were looking for.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  Imagine if they didn't do that? Like, what kind of cultural change would have taken place? Because if you think about what, what happened between 1950 and 1960, it's like the world becomes a different place in 10 years. Between 1960 and 1970, it's like, what? This world is crazy. The music is crazy, the culture's crazy, the movies are nuts. Everything is wild, it's very psychedelic. And then Nixon comes along in 1970, passes this sweeping Schedule I Act, makes all mushrooms and LSD, makes everything illegal, all to stop the civil war, the civil, civil rights movement and the anti-war movement at the same time when they're doing this Manson stuff.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  So it was a concerted effort across the board to stop the anti-war movement and to stop the civil rights movement. They were like, we're losing control and power. And so, I mean, it was an evil thing to do, but you kinda gotta give him credit, because it's pretty brilliant. Like, they, they actually pulled it off. You think of serial killer, you think of Manson. You think of the family, oh my god, these hippies are murderous. They're a bunch of murderous freaks on drugs, cutting women's babies out of their stomachs and writing pig on the wall, like.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  This is nuts.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they brought the Beatles into it.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  And our own goddamn government engineered it. They engineered, they stopped what was probably one of the most beautiful cultural shifts in this country's history.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  That would have organically still kept evolving into other things that would have blossomed out of it.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, we probably would have rethought government. We probably would have like rethought the type of people that we want as leaders. We would have rethought our involvement in foreign wars. There'd been no support for it. We would have rethought what psychedelic drugs can do for you versus the bad aspects of them. We would have rethought everything. We would have, we would have, the music would have been a lot better. Music took a big dip.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it did.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Music took a big dip after they got rid of the drugs that were good and brought in the coke.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  But people do point to the death of the 60s occurred up at Cielo Drive.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was effective. I mean, that completely demonized any peace, love, and you know, any of that kind of movement. Those people became a real problem now because you're now connected to Manson.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  It was instantly zero tolerance.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  It's kind of nuts. Kind of nuts that it was really all engineered by the government. You know, it's really, that in itself, in and of itself, is a terrible crime. That they, they sort of engineered society to their benefit so that they could maintain control. And the way they did it is by getting a horrible con who had been in and out of jail his whole life and teaching him how to run a cult.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  A murderous cult.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  And setting up at a free clinic in the hate.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Where my wife's mom went. Yes, my wife's mom was a hippie.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  You have a connection to this.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Yes, my wife's mom, she was a hippie in hate Ashbury and she went to the hate Ashbury free clinic.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Treated at that clinic?

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Yes, you know, that clinic didn't shut down until after Tom O'Neill's book came out. That clinic would have been running for over 50 years.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  So it ran till like 2022?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. When did it close? It closed shortly after that book came out. They're like, hey, we're good, let's get out of here.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  I could have gone there while I was reading the book.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yes, the CIA was running a fucking clinic.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  What a trip.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  That is so nuts. And that clinic also connected to Jolly West. That clinic also connected to all sorts of other marijuana experience. San Francisco is where they were doing Operation Midnight Climax. That's where they had a brothel.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  These are the people that are supposed to be like, protect and serve. Look out for your best interests. These motherfuckers are creating Manson and completely shifting society. And turning people into whatever the fuck we became in the 70s and the 80s.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  The book came out June 25th, 2019.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 04

  And the clinic closed July 2019.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, a month later. Like, fuck, we got busted.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  That dude read the foreword and was like, guys, we got a problem.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's probably how long it took them just to clear the building out.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  And try to figure out whether they're gonna kill Tom O'Neill.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Right, right. Has he been on the show?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Oh, wow, okay.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  What's he like?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  He's great, he's great. He's actually my good friend Greg Fitzsimmons. He was his neighbor in New York.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  When he first started working in this. And then he became his neighbor also in Venice. Like, he's been his neighbor for like 20 years. So Greg's followed him from this entire journey. And Greg had been telling me about it for years. I'm like, when's your friend gonna get that fucking book done? And then finally, he says, tells me the whole story, how it took so long, why. He's like, you gotta have him on, the book is insane. I'm like, let's go.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  So we had him on and it was incre- first of all, I listened to the book first before I had him on. I listened to the audio version. I was like, this is nuts.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  This is nuts. If this is all true, this is fucking insane. And it's all true. So they really did engineer a murderous cult of hippies.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  And almost used the clinic as a casting couch. As an audition process for which girls they thought would be the most moldable, vulnerable.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Crazy.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Crazy that the CIA was doing that.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  I thought they were supposed to just operate on foreign soil.

• 51:44Speaker 01

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• 52:49Speaker 01

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• 54:17Speaker 01

  a million years.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  And they'll hear us talking about it thinking, come on, guys.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Oh, you're out of your mind.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  Come on, and but they, but they, but they also will never read the book.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  No, never read the book, and then when things get proven, they never apologize.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Imagine that.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Never apologize for your baseless conspiracy theories that all turned out to be true.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Because, you know, conspiracies are fucking real, okay? This, this conspiracy theory pejorative that they really started foisting on the American public during the Kennedy assassination was for that very reason. They wanted to make it ridiculous.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Is that what the, that's what the term was coined?

• 54:51Speaker 01

  That's where the term became popularized. Apparently, the term existed before that. We, we, we researched this, right? Didn't we Google the original term of conspiracy theorists? It's quite a bit earlier, but it was never like a thing in the public zeitgeist. It became a thing during the Kennedy assassination because a lot of people were questioning it because it looked weird. You know, everything, even the people that hadn't seen the Zapruder film, everything just seemed off. It seemed off, and there was rumblings amongst people that were there that the, the big one was the shots from the grassy knoll. Many people talked about gunshots.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  And that one photo where there's like 15 people pointing to the same spot.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  And you see smoke.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Here where the, the bushes are, and it's not a good photo, but it's good enough that you go, hmm. It's just too, it was too uniform. You know, people were, they all were pointing, we heard shots from back there. There is a thing that does happen, especially if you look at Dealey Plaza, have you ever driven through?

• 55:48Speaker 02

  I have, yeah. I've, I've, I've walked the whole crime scene.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  It's weird to be there. First of all, it's so little.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  It's, you can't believe how close everything is.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's real little.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  And that they, but that they sent him into that tight Turn and put him into that.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  In a convertible.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  Pickle jar, you know, yeah.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Completely planned.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  And you watch the motorcycle cubs drop back.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Just drop back.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Which is.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Now, there's, there's something I read, um, did you ever read, um, The Man Who Killed Kennedy?

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Uh uh.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  I think it's, uh, Jim Mars. Do you remember Jim Mars?

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, did you ever have him on?

• 56:19Speaker 01

  No, I didn't.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, he's, he's.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Did he pass?

• 56:21Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. He wrote Psy Spies, which, um, was in, all about remote viewing.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, he's a trip. He was deep into everything.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  I go back and forth on that remote viewing stuff.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  I do too. I do too. But, um, there's something in one of his books, um, and I've never been able to find it anywhere else. It's almost like this little detail was scrubbed from the internet that the, the Morse code signal for victory, um, right after the fatal headshot went out over every Dallas police radio.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  Have you ever heard that?

• 56:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  Okay, I read that. Uh, this is disclaimer. I'm not coming up with this. This is not my original.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Jeez.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  Data, um, but yeah, when I read that, that was, that was just, that was creepy.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  And I don't know that he would have just added that for color. That's not something you just throw out there.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's a weird thing to add. Victory. Well, a lot of people hated Kennedy back then. It's hard for us to reconcile now, today, because we think of him as like one of our greatest presidents. Of course, because he got murdered. We always love him after they get shot.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  But when he was alive, this, this was like half the country fucking hated him. And then there was the Bay of Pigs disaster where we lost a lot of people because Kennedy didn't give them air support. He wasn't told about the invasion until like last moment and air support was crucial.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  To its success. He denied air support. A bunch of people died that weren't going to die.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  And so those guys on the ground, uh, my friend Evan has a theory. My friend Evan, who owns Black Rifle Coffee, who was a Ranger himself.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  I met him.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  He's the best. I love that dude. I love him to death. Um, but he said, like, those guys. Those are hard-nosed killers. And if they think that they lost their brothers because this fucking piece of shit didn't give them the air support that they deserved. It was Kennedy's idea and you tell them that you want to get that guy killed, like, oh, fucking sign me up. Those guys would do it.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  He's like, those would be the type of guys you would have do something like that and they would probably tell you this would be a perfect place to do it.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  Tight little turn.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Anybody who says, by the way, because conspiracies get, everybody gets binary on this, one way or another, I believe this, I believe that. Anybody says that Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't make that shot, has never shot a rifle.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  You're full of shit, if the rifle's on, it was not that far. I'm not saying he could do it a hundred times out of a hundred.

• 58:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  But the possibility of him having that rifle ready, he's got a scope, he's got a rest. The, the, the car comes into view, you roll the sight onto his back, you squeeze off around, squeeze off around, and you get a headshot in there. That's a hundred percent possible.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  I just don't buy it.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  I don't buy, I don't, I don't think he acted alone. If he did do it, he might have done it, he might have shot at him, he might have even hit him once. There was other people, there was, he was the patsy and I think when he said, I'm just a patsy.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  The way he said it was not like a guy who murdered somebody. The way he said it was like, I can't believe they set me up.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly, yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  So I think he was in on a bunch of it.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  I just don't think he pulled the trigger.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Or if he did pull the trigger, he was one of many people that pulled the trigger. That's what I think.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  But there was a lot of other people saying, oh, he couldn't have made those shots because the rifle scope was off. That's, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, because I could get your rifle scope to be off in five seconds. Okay, if your rifle scope's perfect, because it's zeroed in, bang, I drop it on the ground, try it again.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  It'll be off by six inches at 200 yards.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, completely.

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  You're gonna move that thing, it's, they're fragile, they, they require micro-adjustments with little allen wrenches and hex keys and shit.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, yeah.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  They don't torque them too much, you get it dialed in perfect.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  On a, on a $37 rifle.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, on a rifle from 1963.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  From the back of a magazine.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course that thing could get knocked off, easy. Like, almost instantly you can knock that thing off.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  There is a thing about the tree, though.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  What about the tree?

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  That he had to shoot through a tree because what they've done and a lot of the reenactments, um, you know, supporting that he was the lone gunman.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  They, they did, uh, cut out part of the tree that Kennedy's behind.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  They cut it out for the reenactment?

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he would have a clear field of view.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Hmm, but he had a clear view, field of view for at least a brief amount of time.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  And that's all you need. That's all you need if you were good and if you practiced and I'm assuming that if you're gonna go shoot the president, you'll probably get used to firing off a few rounds, you'll probably set up a target.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Through, yeah.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  So you're not gonna just hope that your accuracy is still there from three years ago.

• 1:01:03Speaker 02

  On, on the day, yeah.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're gonna practice.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  So if you're gonna practice, you're gonna be even e- quicker at wrapping a new round.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  He could've done it, but I just don't buy it. It just, none of the evidence seems to point in that direction, including all the evidence that they try to fabricate. Like, the magic bullet one is nuts. Anybody who's ever shot anything with a bullet who looks at that and believes that went through two people and broke bones.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  That looks like it shot, got shot into a swimming pool.

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  It doesn't look like it ever hit anything.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  No, and, and I've had people like, you know, debate me and taking the side of the magic bullet.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  They're not, they're, they're crazy.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  And like, look me right in the eyes and, and believe it and I'm just like, okay, well, cool. This is where we have to just...

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  They're out of their mind.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have to walk away.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  They're out of their mind. It, they don't know. I could show them, like, let's go, let's go take a bone from a cow. Let's set up a bone from a cow and I'll shoot it a hundred yards.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  One bone?

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  Just one?

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Just one bone. And let's take a look at that bullet.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  It's not gonna look anything like that.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  It's gonna be all fucked up. And there's the fragments, there's missing fragments from the bullet that are in Connolly's wrist that are more fragments that are missing from the actual bullet they're attributing to the wound.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  You can't, it's just, yeah.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  But they did it, that's what's nuts.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  You know about the...

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  We can sit here and talk about it till the cows come home.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  Do you know about the palm print, though?

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Oh, that, um, that they linked the rifle to Oswald because of a palm print on, on the stock.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Oh, they got it on the, when they went to visit him in the morgue?

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, they didn't get it till after the autopsy, yeah. Huh, it wasn't there and then, surprise.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  How convenient.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also, like, says who? Says who? His fingerprint was on it. You could just say that back then. 1963. The government says, "We found the fingerprint." Oswald doesn't have a lawyer. No one's representing him. He's dead.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  You know, no one's gonna say, "My client is innocent. He's fucking dead, okay?" Pinned it on him. Nobody gives a shit. And everybody just mourned the fact that the president was dead. And then, you know, all of a sudden, you got Lyndon Johnson, full steam ahead with Vietnam War.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  It's nuts.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you should look what, look at what happens after the major event, it like, it's...

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  Things got very different.

• 1:03:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  They got very different.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  That's when you really start to see, like, okay, yeah.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Kennedy was trying to be a real president. And they were like, "Oh, none of that."

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was the Federal Reserve, it was Vietnam, it was like, all these big, like, really important things.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Big things. He wanted to get us out of the... He wanted to kill the CIA. He wanted to do a lot of things.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  And they were like, "Not today, sir." And then that's the, the real argument is like, we haven't really had a president since Kennedy. Everything after that has been, the, the president's more of a, a speaker.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  And the, the, the giant machine behind it continues to run exactly as it always has.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, um, and, and, uh, just from where I sit, there's, there's not a lot you can do about it.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  There's nothing you can do about it. You could talk, but look, if they haven't done anything about the Kennedy assassination, you can't do shit.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  You, you, you, you could put pressure on people and you, um, you definitely can hurt their chances of getting reelected if people find out that they're very disappointed in you for...

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Not supporting this, or not telling us about that, or lying about this, or you were involved in that. Yeah, but other than that, like, there's not much, not much you can do.

• 1:04:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why I don't really weigh in anymore.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Good. It's probably smart.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  So, you know, I'm just, it feels like, I, I, I don't know, it's wasted energy.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  It definitely is a lot of that. But it's also like a show, you know? You could watch the show. "Hey, have you heard the, watch the latest episode of The Epstein Files? Like, what's going on?"

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it turns into a...

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  It's kinda like a show.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  Turns into a parlor game also, you know? Right, that's how my dad described the OJ case. He said, "This is like the greatest parlor game ever."

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Boy, I remember watching that verdict on TV live in my apartment with this girl I was dating. She was a really sweet girl and she couldn't believe that he was innocent.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  And she didn't understand it. She was so confused.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, it didn't line up, did it?

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  She was like, "No, no, how?" She just kept, she kept like putting her hands on her face, "No, no."

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  It completely torqued her whole reality.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was on a mountaintop in Mexico doing a kind of a, you know, low-rent sci-fi film called The Arrival.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  I loved that movie.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Don't say that was a low-rent movie. I loved that movie.

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  You know who turned me on to that movie? Dave Foley. Dave Foley, who's a good friend of mine from news radio.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Uh, when we were on news radio together, he fucking loved that movie because this is a so underrated sci-fi movie. I'm like, "Okay, cool."

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  And I checked it out. It was great. I loved it.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you. It was, it was the first film that actually incorporated a mashup of puppets and CGI at the same time.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  Because at that point, it was either one or the other and the other hadn't fully really arrived yet.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  You know, yeah. So that was kind of cool. But no, we were, I was so hoping for the day off to be back at the hotel because everybody knew the night before that the verdict was coming, right? So we had to shoot this scene and, and there was a, there was a prop man and he had the only, this is 95, right? He had the only cellphone and it had like half a bar and it's, and it's starting to rain. And he's got his ear and his buddy's got his phone in LA up to the TV when they're about to read the verdict.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  So we all gather around the prop man and we're watching him and he's kind of leaning to keep the signal, to keep it, to kind of keep, you know, connected. And then we can see when he hears it. He slumps a little bit, right? Takes the phone from his ear and slams it into the mud and screams, "That motherfucker got away with murder." This voice like echoed through the mist. It was gnarly.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  That's a wild scene.

• 1:07:25Speaker 02

  That's how I learned about the OJ verdict, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Dave Anderson was there with me. He's a buddy I grew up with. He's in the book. He's a two-time Oscar-winning FX makeup artist, you know? And so, yeah, if you ever run across Dave the Rave Anderson, ask him about the OJ verdict.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  That's a cra- just a crazy scene. Imagine a guy reacting like that.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  He was our only connection to it.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  And everybody was so invested in this thing. And it was really hard to go. And that was like, do you remember a time of day that might have happened? Kind of late morning, sort of, or was it in the afternoon?

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  I don't remember. I don't remember at all.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  We still had a pretty sizable day to shoot. And it was really hard to regain focus.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  And feel like what we were doing still mattered.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  Because there was a, there was a giant, just there was like a murmur in the universe at that point, you know?

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  Like something, it felt like something had been taken from us. You know? Yeah.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Yes, civility.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  Did you see the last, or the most recent OJ documentary?

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  It's, um...

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  It's Murder, Mayhem, and Blood. I think it's got three.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Murder, Mayhem, and Blood?

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  Something, Murder, Mayhem, and Lies?

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  Something, I'm probably way off with that title. No. No, it's actually, it's actually-

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  But it's the latest OJ documentary?

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  Well, I guess Manhunt would be the latest. This, yeah, this is the one that was before that. And it's broken down at the crime scene by two, like, expert veteran recreationists.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's a trip. Do you watch any OJ stuff that comes out? No?

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  No, I try not to.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  Because?

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  It's just too weird.

• 1:09:27Speaker 02

  Okay. Do you think there was something else there?

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  No, I think he killed his wife.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  And he killed Ron Goldman. And he got away with it.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  And it's just nuts. It's just, you know, it's weird. You watch him on, like, Naked Gun, and you're like, that guy?

• 1:09:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  That guy murdered his wife with a knife? Like, what?

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  And then he got away with it, and he was just golfing?

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a follow-up part that didn't really support anything about what he had claimed.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  You remember when he was a rapper? You remember the Juice Is Loose? You remember that?

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh. I think I just willed that one out of my mind.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  He had like a, like a, like a king's robe on and like there's a bunch of hot ladies around him.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Okay, it's coming back to me, yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  He made a rap song.

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  Wow, wow.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was like embracing the heel role at one point in time after the, the guilty verdict, or the not guilty verdict.

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  Right, right, yeah.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  And so he, he got into like rap.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  But I mean, probably just, just for, just for monetary grab, right?

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  I would imagine. Let me, watch me play it. Play the Juice Is Loose. It's so bad. It's, it's, is it off of YouTube? That would be hilarious.

• 1:10:39Speaker 04

  He had a, it was part of a TV show. He had, I saw another clip recently.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:10:42Speaker 04

  He has like a prank show. He was trying to prank people. It's like probably pre, uh...

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Jackass?

• 1:10:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I'm trying to think of the thing they had on MTV that they did with all the celebrities.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Oh, Punk'd.

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  OJ was doing that? Everybody would just run away screaming. He's the murderer.

• 1:11:00Speaker 04

  He did it to a lady, like walked up to her hotel room with a knife.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. That was one of his scenes? Jesus Christ.

• 1:11:08Speaker 04

  You Got Juice is what it was called.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  You Got Juice.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  You Got Juice, damn.

• 1:11:15Speaker 04

  Also, the music video had a bunch of, uh...

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  Naked ladies?

• 1:11:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was aired on like, uh, pay-per-view.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:11:21Speaker 04

  The Spice Channel or something like that.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Spic- remember the Spice Channel?

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, but that whole thing, going from that verdict to trying, going back to work.

• 1:11:35Speaker 04

  It's not, it's not the video, but it's the picture.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Oh, my. Look at that.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Juice, the musical.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  Look at that.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  I remember one time we were, uh, filming news radio. It was in the middle of that North Hollywood shootout. Do you remember that?

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  I do, yeah.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  And we were watching it live on TV.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  While trying to do a sitcom. And we were like, we probably should take some time off here. There's a fucking war going on in the middle of North Hollywood.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Wow. Yeah, that was...

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  I think that involved a lot of cocaine and steroids, too.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  From the brothers.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  From the guys.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  I know they were definitely on steroids.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  But I think there was probably some.

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  Or meth.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Something like that.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think meth would have kept them there for a lot longer, yeah.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  For people don't know the story, these guys, um, did they, they rob a bank? Is that what they did?

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, but waited.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Like, could have driven away, could have left with all the, all, all the dough.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  And they decided to get in a shootout with the cops.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  And killed cops, right?

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  I mean, and they got killed, a bunch of cops got hit, and the cops were like horribly outgunned.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  The cops had their nine millimeter pistols and these guys have fucking machine guns and bulletproof vests.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, Kevlar helmets and they had face masks.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now, do you support that when the dude finally kills himself, that it was a simultaneous sniper shot at the same time?

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  I never even looked into that. Is that one of the conspiracies?

• 1:12:55Speaker 02

  Well, it's just, it's, yeah, that's one thing that they claim.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  That he got shot and shot himself at the exact same time?

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  The exact same time.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  It's possible.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  But why would they, like, what does that serve? Like, what does that?

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Maybe they were already gonna shoot him and he shot himself and they didn't think he was gonna shoot himself and they pulled the trigger right when he did.

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  That's what I would guess, if that's the case.

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  But it's not like they have to be let off the hook because at that point, that dude has to be put down.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, one of the guys had already been shot and he was shot in the leg and they didn't get him any medical help. They knew he was gonna bleed out. You know, I think, I think that was the case. I think he got shot in his femoral artery.

• 1:13:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, the fir-, the first guy it says he died by, this is from Wikipedia, he died by suicide via gunshot to the head from his handgun simultaneously being hit by rifle fire from LAPD officers with one round striking and severing his spine.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:13:47Speaker 04

  The other guy got shot twenty, over twenty-nine times and died from blood loss.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  Wow. I mean, what are the odds that the?

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  That the thing with the?

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  It sounds like there were, a lot of bullets were flying in his direction.

• 1:14:03Speaker 04

  Maybe 2,000 rounds were found.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  2,000. Like, what does that weigh? If you're carting that around and you've got a whole duffel of cash.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you must have a heavy trunk.

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is bananas.

• 1:14:18Speaker 04

  Half was the police, but...

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:14:20Speaker 04

  Still.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Imagine being in that neighborhood?

• 1:14:26Speaker 04

  I think that's where I moved my...

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  2,000 rounds are flying in both directions?

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  Well, the cops like went to a gun store, right? Didn't they?

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  I think they did.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  Like, right when it started and they were like, "Whatever you got. You know, give us your biggest bore rifle, you know, whatever you got. We'll take it. Yeah. How much ammo you got?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  I mean, how long did that go on for?

• 1:14:45Speaker 04

  Uh, about an hour.

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:14:48Speaker 04

  They had homemade body armor. SWAT team wasn't ready for that. They had to commandeer an armored vehicle to evacuate wounded people.

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• 1:16:30Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, then they, uh, that's, that's kinda sparked the debate for police to get more power.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Jeez.

• 1:16:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a, that was kinda, that was a turning point moment.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Now, if you're a real conspiracy theorist, then you say, "Oh, MKUltra tricked those guys into doing that so that the cops can get better guns."

• 1:16:47Speaker 02

  And the cops could get militarized, and, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  Well, this is the problem with conspiracies. People attribute them to everything.

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  When you really get down the rabbit hole, everything's a conspiracy.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, but then, when they do that, they kind of, um, they, they, they, they

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  harm the credibility of the ones that, that can really be, you know, considered for, for, you know, for, for the, for how we know them to be.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no doubt.

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  After all the extensive research, you know?

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, there's real ones. But I think that's also part of the thing, reason why, you know, some really silly conspiracy theories get pushed. I think they get pushed by bots, and I think they get pushed by paid accounts.

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  To, to water down the real ones, yeah.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  To make, make them look stupid, and they'll like, attach them, attach a really stupid conspiracy to one that's legitimate.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  And then it discredits the legitimate one.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's almost like, you know, not to introduce this, but just from afar, it's almost like, uh, a lot of the QAnon stuff kind of had that effect, just, you know? Um, I didn't dig deep into that and don't, you know, and only know just the, just the basic, you know, talking points about it.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  But, um, but one thing I did see that was, felt like a, a constant was that there was always, uh, anytime they'd mention something that was just completely screwy, it was followed up with the ones that, that, that we believe to be real.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:18Speaker 02

  You know, they're just kinda this big, just this, kinda just put them all in the same...

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, a stew of good stuff and bullshit.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Stew, exactly, and just, just stirred that cauldron, you know?

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a very convenient way to bury truth. The QAnon documentary on HBO was great. Uh, Enter the Fire, that was called?

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  Into something?

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  I didn't see it.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Into the storm. Into the storm.

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  It's really good.

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  Is it, yeah?

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  It's a multi-part thing on all the people that were involved in 4chan and the creation of QAnon. Who they think the original guy was, and they think another guy took it over after a while and took over the account.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  And it seems like they were just kind of fucking around at first. But it's not definitive. Like, he's got some really good evidence that points in that direction, but it's just hard to know. And, you know, everyone always thought that it was someone inside the White House. There was some, like, secret person inside the White House. It doesn't seem like this documentary believes that. The guy who made this documentary, he pins it on one guy in particular. That's a tech nerd that seems to have all of the attributes of someone who could pull off a QAnon-type deal.

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  Checks every box.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, checks every... Super smart, you know, internet shit poster, you know, running 4chan, you know? And, like, that's the whole thing over there. It's like, get people to do stuff that's stupid.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Like, they got women to free bleed. They started pushing this idea that you, you know, it's, uh, the patriarchy's making you wear a tampon. And you should just, your menstrual cycle should just flow in your pants, and who cares? And this is like a sign of your strong femininity. It was just them being crazy, and then a bunch of women just adopted it.

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Not for long.

• 1:20:07Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  It's gross. They were like, "This is stupid."

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Probably lasted a couple of weeks. But a bunch of women...

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  But it's, that's, people are really susceptible. You could get people to do that. Not everybody.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  But it's just like the hate Ashbury free clinic thing. Not everybody's gonna join your call.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  But if you open up a free clinic, you're gonna get enough, you know, lost children that come in through your doors.

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  Well, they're gonna need your legit services.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:32Speaker 02

  To start with, yeah.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You gotta sort it out.

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  It's just nuts that that, that's our government. That's our, our daddies. Our, our government daddies. The people that we're supposed to be looking to, to help us lead a prosperous life and secure our standing in the world. And make sure we grow financially, and these motherfuckers did all that.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you know, ultimate power, right?

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. In any form. Well, they're bringing it back to stardom. Like, that's a weird power to get somebody. It's especially when you're 21 years old.

• 1:21:15Speaker 02

  Stardom.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a weird power. Weird amount of freedom, weird amount of, like, people expecting you to be kind of wild.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah, and again, that thing you talked about where you watch it happen to others and then suddenly it's you. It's a lot more... It's a lot more intoxicating. And then I would always think, okay, so why... Why... How were they able to control it? Why didn't I see them enjoying it at this level? And it wasn't about, "I'm gonna show them the way they should have been doing it." It was just about, "Hey, guys, okay, cool." No, it finally made its way over here and it can go to 11. You know? And not burn the whole house down.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  You know, when it was still fun, when it was still creative and productive on some level. You know? Because it wasn't about... It was still having to show up. And it was still, you know, carving out enough time for the party, but also reserving enough,

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  you know, energy for the job.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  That's the balance.

• 1:22:31Speaker 02

  That's the balance.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  And some people can pull it off. Some people, they're really disciplined and they pull off the work and then they pull off the partying.

• 1:22:39Speaker 02

  Right, right. And I was able to maintain that for a long time. You know, and even when it flamed out, like those early rehabs and there was always, like, there was a job, like, the day I got out. You know scripts showing up in rehab? And it's like, they're just, they're just, they, they want you to get, they want you to get well, okay? They want you to get better, but you know, as soon as you're out of here, you know, we got, we got some good stuff for you to look at.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  There's also unfortunately, a romantic notion of a guy getting out of rehab.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:23:12Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  How many cop shows start with a guy who's down in dumps? Putting a pizza in a blender for breakfast? You know what I mean? Like really like at his lowest of low points?

• 1:23:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Drinking and then maybe his daughter cries and he throws the bottles into the trash can and is like, I'm done. And now he's back and there's a romantic thing of getting your shit together.

• 1:23:33Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  It's like Charlie's back, you're better than ever.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's, uh, it's, you know, everybody's rooting for you again.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  You know, and they, and they, and they're expecting the, the, the guy to deliver.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, with passion now, real life experience. He was a drug addict.

• 1:23:50Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Look at Robert Downey Jr. now.

• 1:23:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, people love that. They love that.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  But the same thing was happening to Downey when, when he, when, when he was in rehab or maybe when he was even in the pen when they, um, what people were bringing him. I think he was, I think they brought him Ally McBeal when he was still in jail.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  And I don't think, I think he still got high after that.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  You know, and my dad would always be like yelling at the television. It's like, stop rewarding his, this behavior. Stop rewarding it. Let him, let him, let him sit in those consequences. Not out of judgment or out of punishment or, you know, just out of love, you know?

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  To help him get his shit together.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  If you keep letting them fuck up over and over again, they'll continue to fuck up.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  But if there's always a carrot the day you walk out, you know, something to, something to chase and, and, and, and a soft landing.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  You know? That's what was really interesting about this, you know, this, this, this, uh, this decades, decade-long timeout that I got, that I got put into, you know? Um, which, you know, at some point the, the punishment has to sort of fit the crime, right? And, uh, yeah, it was, it was, it felt like it had, it was a little bit longer than it than it should have been.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  It should have been.

• 1:25:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I don't remember any murder charges, you know.

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  But, at the same time, um, there's not a chance that I, that I could have done the, the two projects that I've, that, wow, the book came out yesterday and the doc comes out today, you know. I couldn't have done either unless I had the kind of perspective and distance from all of that that I, that I was able to, to get, to find, you know.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  You've been sober for how long, seven years?

• 1:25:41Speaker 02

  Coming up on eight, yeah.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Eight years?

• 1:25:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll be eight in December.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  That probably helped a lot to be away from everything to, for you to achieve that?

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was still doing things to, you, you know, just kind of stay in the mix a little bit and, you know, I do signings, I do speaking engagements, do stuff like that, but it was also, like, it's like, as soon as I quit drinking, all my kids started showing up again. And, you know, Sam and Lola were living there and then they'd, they'd, they'd cycle back with Denise and then Bob and Max would show up and then they'd, Brooke would come back and like, okay, so he, he's gonna be here and then Lola would show back up. So my house was kind of like, it was kind of like this, it was like a clubhouse, you know. And I write in the book that my, that, that, that my vacancy sign, you know, for, for, for those children, um, always, always hangs facing out, you know.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  So it was, you know, being, being called to a, to a much more responsible and complicated, uh, set of responsibilities and, and, and order, you know, and just having to do stuff that they, they didn't care about, you know, a, a writing of a show or response to a movie or any, like, popularity or, or IMDb, uh, you, you, you know, stuff. They, they were just like, you know, with the basic needs and getting to school and help with this. And so it was really cool to like suddenly just be, that that's the only stuff that, that, that mattered to the people that mattered the most. And so, um...

• 1:27:14Speaker 02

  And, and, yeah, but you're right, that, that, none of that could have happened if I was away on location, or having to be at a studio every week, or, but, um, yeah, I think it's, I, it was about the time that it, that it created, you know, so, um, and, and it, it's interesting that, that, I'm not, I'm not like, I'm not looking at this as a, as a comeback, you know, um, cause it's, uh, it's, it's, I think it's a reset, I think it's a reset, you know, and, and I didn't, I didn't, um, I didn't rely on anything that I'd done before, never written a book,

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  never done a documentary, you know, but to come back with two projects that, um, everybody seems to be really excited about.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Documentary is very entertaining.

• 1:28:03Speaker 02

  Awesome, thank you.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  It's very entertaining.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  It's really well done, like the way it's put together, and it's just, so, the stories are fucking bananas. It's so, it's so bananas, it's, the, the whole thing was just so nuts, but, you know, like I said, everybody loves the story of someone getting their shit together, and, uh, that's a great accomplishment of being sober for almost eight years, it really is.

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, you know, it's, um, people are gonna yell at me because of how I, I deal with that, with the AA in the book, and that's fine, I just speak to my personal experiences, I'm not, I'm not.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  How do you deal with it?

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  Um, that, I, I, I tried it for a long time, I, I, for a combined 21 years, um, and just decided that, that I had to give this, give this a go on my own.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  So you just do it completely on your own, you don't have any, uh, person that you call, or any?

• 1:28:58Speaker 02

  No, I mean, there's people that, that are sober that I still talk to and can see.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Right, but you don't have a sponsor, or something like that?

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't, no, no.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  I know it does help some people.

• 1:29:10Speaker 02

  Of course, and that's why I don't wanna say that it's. I'm not recommending that this is another.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Right. You're just saying your truth. This is how you do it. I had a very good friend who was an alcoholic who quit. One day, he crashed his car, ran from the cops on foot, got arrested. And then he's like, what am I doing with my life? I'm done. He quit.

• 1:29:31Speaker 02

  Like that day.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  That there, then never had a drink again. I knew him for 20 years after that.

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  It happens. It can happen. Yeah, yeah. But I, but I, I think that I, that I do have the experience of all of that time in and around the rooms. You know, and, and, and that's not to say that I don't still remember a couple of nuggets, a couple of things that still stuck with me. That I still thought, you'd still see as valuable.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  You know, but um. It's, there's, there's a line in the book that it's, it's, it's, it's hard to ask for help when, when somebody else has raised your hand for you. You know, interventions, you're pulled into a thing, you're told to do this, and you're just, all you're doing is just counting the days.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a part of the documentary too, when the, the first intervention, when you got brought into a room and everybody's sitting there waiting for you, you thought it was a party?

• 1:30:22Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, I was a little suspicious because it's 9 a.m. Why is Dad having a 9 a.m. birthday party?

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  Unless we're going to Magic Mountain, right? That's usually the time you leave.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  That's usually for a seven-year-old, right?

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, no, that was, that was wild. Um, that is something that I can still see as it happened on the day.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  Turning that corner in the hallway into my parents' living room and like. And my brain is still trying to turn it into a birthday party. My brain, I insisted that that's what we're there for, you know?

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  That's funny.

• 1:30:58Speaker 02

  And it just, when it starts to dawn on you, like, have you ever taken a sip of something that was in the wrong bottle? But your brain saw the label.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:31:06Speaker 02

  And so your, it takes your body.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  Like a half a second.

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, to catch up to that's not, those don't match.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  Those don't match.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a story about that, but I probably shouldn't tell it on air. But, um, yeah.

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  So that one didn't work. It didn't work that way. You had to do it on your own?

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  It, it worked for a year. It worked for a year, but then, like, as is in, in the dock, I'm at, I'm at Cage's house and I, on, on the anniversary, on the one year, I find that beer in his fridge.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  I'm like, well, that's there for a reason.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:41Speaker 02

  He's just caused this, he's caused this celebrate. That's not an accident?

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  And just didn't even think twice.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  Just was like, ah, finally, boom.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  And now we're off to the races.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  We're off to the races, yeah.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Wow. How did you get sober this time?

• 1:31:59Speaker 02

  I, um, I'd, I'd gotten off the drugs. Gotten off the dope, but you, when I say dope, that's always coke. Never heroin. I was never a heroin guy. I'd, I'd been off that, geez, probably over 10 years, you know? And so, I mean, or, or, or more than 10 years, like, sitting here today. So I hadn't, I hadn't fucked around with any of that shit for a few years. I was just, I was, I'd just committed to drinking, you know? And then found that to be, like, the most unmanageable drug, um, that, that I've ever tried to navigate.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Drinking.

• 1:32:39Speaker 02

  Drinking, yeah, drinking.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  More than cocaine?

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, because there's never a time when you can't get it, you know? And, and when I had made the decision that I, okay, I'm just going to drink. I treated it like, like I did drugs, you know?

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:32:57Speaker 02

  But it, um, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really kind of, it's, it's very accepted. And it's, it's, it's, it's very socially ingrained, you know?

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's always Miller time.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

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• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah. But so, I knew the way my body was starting to react and that the way I was starting to feel and just it just, I couldn't feel it how I used to, even at like really like powerful.

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  Doses, you know, I just couldn't, and that, that, that got depressing. That, that wasn't like, I'll just drink twice as much now. That was like, damn, the thing I relied on is now just like told me.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's no.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  You have too much of a tolerance now.

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Our relationship is now different.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:35:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so, there was a day, and it's, it's, it's in the book, and, and I, I, you know, I was a morning drinker. I, I loved, you know, spiking my coffee. That's like, for me, it was like the best time to drink. I mean, you're not gonna get shit done the rest of the day, but that's when I felt it. That's when I could still feel it was in the morning, you know? So I'm on like my third Macallan coffee or whatever, and my daughter Sam, like, calls from, she, she's at the house and calls and says, hey, um, what time are we leaving? Like, to, to go where? She had a hair appointment, and it was a Sunday, I think, or a Saturday,

• 1:36:25Speaker 02

  and I've never, ever mixed the cups and the wheel, ever. I've never had a DUI. How about that?

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:36:35Speaker 02

  That's pretty good, right?

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  That's very good.

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  I just, I just decided like, a long time ago, like when I was like seventeen.

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Very smart.

• 1:36:43Speaker 02

  That was never gonna happen.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  Good for you.

• 1:36:45Speaker 02

  And I was living in a limo back then. There was, you know, the occasional cab, but these days, these days to get busted for drinking and driving with the available transportation, that is literally fifteen choices in your hand.

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:01Speaker 02

  It's, there's no excuse.

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  And so I call, I called Tony, I said, Tony, you know, I can't drive, you gotta help me get Sam to this thing. And, and so he was like, oh, I'll, I'll be right, he was there in twenty minutes. We got her to the appointment, it went great, and there was, there was a moment in the car, driving back, and, and, um, I, I, I describe it in the book, you know, and I, I could see her in two mirrors, the visor and, and the side view, and she was just kinda sitting back there and... I'm not saying that I know exactly what she was thinking, but I could feel what I'm pretty sure she was. And it was just this thing about, you know, why it's, yeah, it's cool that dad did this, but why, why isn't dad driving again? Right.

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  You know, why, why is there always? Disappointment. Yeah. And it's not nothing with Tony, you know? Right. He's been around forever and, you know, and, and, and so we got, we got back from that and, and I, and it was, there was something that I couldn't shake. It was something that stayed with me, just the images of her, this little 13 year old kid in the backseat. And her dad can't even take her to like a, just a basic, just like up the highway to a hair appointment. Like that, that got, that was complicated, you know? Yeah. And I was like, what am I doing? And then I just sat inside, I sat inside of that for a while because it didn't feel good. And I, and I thought, okay, what can I do

• 1:38:32Speaker 02

  to not, to stop feeling like this? The math is pretty simple at that point, you know? And, um, I wasn't going to do rehab. I wasn't going to do a big dramatic, you know, life turnaround or, I was just gonna, just make a decision and stick to it. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I took a few Valium, drank a few beers and then the next day, just woke up and said, I'm done and didn't care. I didn't, I made a decision. I wasn't going to care how I felt physically. Was just gonna like, just. Grit and bear it? Yeah. How long did it take before you felt okay? About three days. The story I had written that was going to be a month was just like,

• 1:39:16Speaker 02

  that, that, that, that was fake. And it was, and so, and then it just coincidentally, it happened to be my oldest daughter Cassandra's birthday when I quit. It was December 12th, you know? It was just like, okay, that's all aligned.

• 1:39:34Speaker 02

  And then, um, then something else happened after that. Because everybody's gonna get a little squirrely. Like you can push. The problem with a guy like me is that, and people like me, is you're able to put things back together really quickly. Right?

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:39:52Speaker 02

  And, and kind of just kind of reassemble the pieces.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  So you're not as scared to go off the rails?

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  Right, right, right. And, um, and so then I got a call, um, this is the post, you know, already had HIV for, for several years at this point. I get a call that there's a new medicine, right? This is about a month after the Sam thing, right? And they're like, "Look, we want you to try this thing, because it's, it's, it's a much smaller cocktail. It's much less toxicity and, and no, very few side effects. We think you're gonna do great on it," right? They said, "But you can't drink on it." "The other one, you could drink your fucking face off." Like, like you could, you could drink like a pirate on the other one. Which they shouldn't have told me that you can.

• 1:40:40Speaker 02

  And so, um, so I said, "Okay, great." So I tried that one, and it was, you know, it was working great. But they said, "Okay, if you can just stay off the booze, um, it's gonna keep working the light, light, light like it is," you know? So then this other thing showed up in addition to that, like just in, in concert with it. So now I had a couple of things going on. You know, let's keep this thing, this, this, uh, evil stowaway is what I like to call it. Let's keep that thing in the, you know, at bay. And, and let's, you know, re, re, rebuild every relationship that matters in your life, you know, while you're still here.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Did you have a revelation after a while, after you were sober for a while, where, where you stop and think, like, "Why was I getting so fucked up?" Like, what was I, what was I trying to avoid? Or what was I trying to enhance? Or what, what was the purpose? Like, what was I, what, what bothered me so much that I couldn't be sober?

• 1:41:43Speaker 02

  Interesting, yeah, yeah, um.

• 1:41:48Speaker 02

  I think, yeah, it, it, I, I think it was more avoid earlier, like, or earlier in life, like, avoid the pressures of fame, avoid the fears of, of commitment or relationship, or, or being exposed as a fucking fraud at some point, you know?

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  I think that was earlier, and I think enhance came later, that, that, um, trying to just make situations just feel more exciting, or cooler, or, or more, you know, sexier, or, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's interesting that, that you presented both sides of that, you know? Avoid, enhance.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, I relate to both, you know?

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a good thing to tell people, too, because everybody wants to hear the drugs, like, Bill Hicks had a great joke about, nobody ever hears, uh, great drug stories.

• 1:42:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  You know, you only hear the bad ones, you know, and it is true, but the reason why people do it is because it's fun, like, it can ruin your life, but it's also really fun, that's why people do it.

• 1:43:02Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  This is, it's important for people to know, because you don't want them to think you're lying to them, you know, and for them to hear you sober and happy, and go, okay, that's possible, you can get there, because this guy's admitting what getting high was, you know, like, there's a, there's a scene in the documentary where you're talking about the first time you smoked crack, where this girl's giving you a blowjob while you're smoking crack, and it was like the greatest feeling of all time.

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:30Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, like, I think that's important to say.

• 1:43:33Speaker 02

  That hasn't been topped.

• 1:43:37Speaker 02

  I, I, I shouldn't say that, I don't care, I don't care.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:41Speaker 02

  That hasn't been topped.

• 1:43:42Speaker 01

  Have you ever heard Hunter Biden talk about crack?

• 1:43:45Speaker 02

  I haven't, no.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  He was on that Channel 5 show and he gives this ode to crack. That made me want to immediately go smoke crack.

• 1:43:55Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, because Hunter Biden's a very smart guy. I don't think people think of him that way because of the laptop thing, but he's very intelligent.

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  And very articulate. So when he's explaining like the effects of crack and how different it is and how incredible it is and the euphoria of it. And it's like, he was literally saying that he's like getting the itch while he is sitting there sober.

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  Talking about describing.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  Working on his sobriety, trying to keep it together. After all, publicly shamed.

• 1:44:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  For being out of control and talking about crack like a lover that you lost in a drowning accident.

• 1:44:34Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  I get that. I get that. That makes sense.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  I bet you do.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  There's a moment in the doc.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:43Speaker 02

  Where I tell the Sandy story.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:46Speaker 02

  And I say, wow, that one actually got me kinda, I could feel that. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  That's the problem. The problem is it's great.

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  That's the problem, yeah.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, the problem is.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  Did you, I know, you don't have to, did you ever try it or no?

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  No, I never even did coke.

• 1:45:02Speaker 02

  Oh, you never, oh.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  No, when I was in high school, I have a good buddy of mine and his cousin was selling coke.

• 1:45:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  And his cousin who was super normal, I knew him forever, great guy, super cool guy. All of a sudden, he became weird and pale and lost all this weight. And it was like he got bit by a vampire. And him and his girlfriend were selling coke and they would just watch TV and do coke.

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:45:27Speaker 01

  And they had like this attic apartment and it was like he had gotten bit by a vampire. That's how it felt like to me. I was like, he just lost his whole life to coke. And then I saw some other kids that had coke problems around me where they were just dying to get coke. And I was like, this is a bad drug. And back then, I think it was actually coke, you know?

• 1:45:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, at least they ate like 80% of it, yeah.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  In the 1980s, I don't know if they were cutting it with anything, but I. Made a decision at one point in time in my life, no, I don't want to have nothing to do with that one. That one seems to rob people's lives.

• 1:46:02Speaker 02

  Wow, and you just stuck to that?

• 1:46:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just seemed to me like that one can make you a loser.

• 1:46:07Speaker 02

  And then did you roll in circles over the years where it was prevalent?

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I knew some people that did coke and it never worked out well. I didn't know anybody who did coke who like kept their life together. Everybody who did coke was like barely together, barely hanging on, always off the rails.

• 1:46:24Speaker 02

  I think there's like one guy.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  One guy out there, some superhero who keeps it together?

• 1:46:29Speaker 02

  Well, that maintained it all those years was was Jack Nicholson.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46:33Speaker 02

  I think he's like the only guy.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:46:36Speaker 02

  I mean, do we know of anybody else?

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  Well, they might not be public about it.

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  But what about the rumors that that Jack always traveled with like a doctor? Have you ever heard this shit? Have you heard these stories?

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:46:49Speaker 02

  No?

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that he had a doctor that carried his coke or distributed.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 1:46:55Speaker 02

  And only gave him just the just what he needed.

• 1:46:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:46:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I don't know.

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  That's some movie star shit right there.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  You got a doctor with a fucking leather satchel to carry your coke around?

• 1:47:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he's just he's just close.

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  I'd make him wear a stethoscope everywhere you go, bro.

• 1:47:10Speaker 02

  Has to.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  You need to have a stethoscope on. Everybody's got to know you're legit.

• 1:47:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's like that's one of the great like eighties rumors about Jack.

• 1:47:19Speaker 01

  Funny, I never heard that rumor.

• 1:47:20Speaker 02

  There was some guy.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 1:47:22Speaker 02

  But then you'd be around Jack. I was only around him a few times, but then, you know, he was cool as hell. And you're always kind of looking like, all right, who's the bag man? Who's his guy?

• 1:47:30Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:47:31Speaker 02

  Where is he? You know, or who's the bag man for that night, you know?

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Speaker 02

  Like, was it a team of doctors that rotated?

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  Dangerfield party till the end. He uh

• 1:47:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did.

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  He kept that trailer rolling.

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Down, down, down, down.

• 1:47:45Speaker 02

  We lived in the same building for a while.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  You in Dangerfield?

• 1:47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  No way!

• 1:47:50Speaker 02

  It's that building in the book called the Wilshire on Wilshire.

• 1:47:53Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  Gosh, I maybe saw him twice. I got in the elevator with him one time and and we'd seen each other out but never really had like an elevator moment, you know? And he goes, hey, kid, how you doing? You look great. And he's like, hey, what?

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  Look at that.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  You guys together with Kidson. Wow.

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  But in the elevator.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Look at Rod, he looks funny just in his photo.

• 1:48:20Speaker 02

  Just, yeah.

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  Just in the photo, you start laughing.

• 1:48:23Speaker 02

  Doing nothing.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  He was so good, dude.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  I, I can't tell you what happened that night. I don't know where we were. But it looks like, the jacket is definitely circa eighty-nine, ninety. The, um, that looks like a backstage something that's on my jacket, right? Yeah.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  Probably at a Poison concert or something.

• 1:48:42Speaker 02

  Perhaps.

• 1:48:45Speaker 02

  So we're in the elevator, he says, "Hey, what are you, what are you, Puerto Rican, right?" And I, and I said, "No, I'm, I'm, I'm Spanish-Irish." And he says, "Ah, you don't know whether to start a parade or start a war." And it's like, doors open and he, he just walks out. He just had that on standby, or, or built it in the moment.

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  He probably built it in the moment.

• 1:49:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:05Speaker 02

  And I was just like, so I can't really ever describe my heritage without hearing his voice, you know? Start a parade or start a war.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  That's funny.

• 1:49:15Speaker 02

  And I'm just like, wow, just left me with that gold, you know?

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  We have his handwritten notes at our, our comedy club, in the green room.

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  Oh, you do?

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, for one of his Tonight Show appearances, we have his handwritten notes framed, all the stuff he's gonna talk about.

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  It's pretty cool.

• 1:49:28Speaker 02

  Wow. And, and, and would he, would he stick to?

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like his jokes and he had like the punchlines, like accented, bold letters.

• 1:49:37Speaker 02

  Oh, seriously?

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, he wrote it all out darker.

• 1:49:39Speaker 02

  So he was, he was like super organized about it?

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, super organized.

• 1:49:42Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Well, he, he stopped doing stand-up for a long time and he was selling aluminum siding. And then he made it again when he was much older in life, he came back and

• 1:49:51Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  The thing that happened was from the time he stopped doing stand-up to when he went back to having a regular job, he never stopped writing jokes. Like his brain just worked that way, so he was just always writing jokes, so when he came back-

• 1:50:02Speaker 02

  Sitting on a treasure trove?

• 1:50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:04Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  Yes, and he just fucking stormed the gates. When he came back, everybody's like, "Where's this guy been?"

• 1:50:10Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 1:50:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  And then he became huge, back to school and the Rodney Dangerfield HBO comedy specials and, yeah.

• 1:50:18Speaker 02

  That's epic, yeah.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  Oh, he's one of the all-time greats.

• 1:50:19Speaker 02

  So he came back at, do, do, doing stand-up.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  I think he was in his forties.

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  Got some heat again, and that activated the films?

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the stand-up, he didn't have any heat before, but when he quit, you know, he was just like, kind of like, getting by, doing alright, and got a job, quit. I think he might have quit for ten years.

• 1:50:38Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then, the whole time, he's writing, and then he's like, fuck it, I gotta do this, and then got back into comedy.

• 1:50:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:50:47Speaker 01

  I hope I'm not fucking that story up, but I think I'm, I think I'm accurate with that. See if you can find it, make sure that's true. I'm ninety percent sure that's true. But I know that he didn't make it until he was in his forties. And, uh, I told this the other day, but I'll tell it again. I used to work at Great Wood Center for the Performing Arts in Mansfield, Massachusetts. I was a security guy there.

• 1:51:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  And, uh, I was backstage, or by the, by the outside of the backstage, and Rodney Dangerfield would go onstage completely naked with a bathrobe on. That's what he would wear. And he was wearing a bathrobe backstage with slippers, and just walking around. I was like, this guy's wild.

• 1:51:24Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  And they're like, he goes onstage like that? I'm like, shut the fuck up.

• 1:51:28Speaker 02

  Was it partially closed, at least? Or it was just wide open?

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was closed. He didn't want everybody to see his dick. But if you went in the green room, you were seeing his dick.

• 1:51:35Speaker 02

  Cause he's sitting down.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  He would just sit there, his dick would be hanging out, he didn't care. Uh, he struggled financially for nine years, one port forming as a singing waiter, until he was fired, before taking a job selling aluminum siding in the mid-fifties to support his wife and family. He later quit, so in the nineteen sixties, he started reviving his career.

• 1:51:52Speaker 02

  Oh, damn.

• 1:51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, somewhere, close to ten years. Still working as a salesman by day. He returned to the stage, performing at hotels in the Catskills Mountains, but still finding minimal success. He fell into debt, about twenty thousand dollars by his own estimate, could get booked. Uh, Dangerfield came to realize what he lacked was an image, a well-defined onstage persona that the audience could relate to, one that would distinguish him from other comics. After being shunned by some premier comedy venues, he returned home, where he began developing a character for whom nothing goes right. Isn't that crazy?

• 1:52:26Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Oh, look at this. During Roy's comeback bid, who's Roy?

• 1:52:35Speaker 04

  Uh, when he was nineteen, he was Jack Roy.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:52:38Speaker 04

  So he had to change his name. He had to become Rodney Dangerfield.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:52:42Speaker 04

  Because people were recognizing him.

• 1:52:43Speaker 02

  Wow. I'm gonna use that checking in at hotels from now on.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  Wanting to distinguish himself from the longtime patrons who might have remembered him from the nineteen forty's, Roy asked club owner George McFadden to change his name. He came up with Rodney Dangerfield. Wow, he didn't want people to remember him as Jack Roy from back in the day. He didn't like his old act.

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Wow. He said, "I don't know where it came from." McFadden may have taken it from the Jack Benny program on NBC Radio, which first used Rodney Dangerfield as a character's name in nineteen forty-one. Ricky Nelson also used the pseudonym in a nineteen sixty-two episode of The Adventures of Ozzy and Harriet. Wow. That's crazy.

• 1:53:28Speaker 04

  Man, Ed Sullivan Show nineteen sixty-seven.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Wow, that's when he popped again.

• 1:53:33Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  That's nuts.

• 1:53:35Speaker 02

  Wow, go get him.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:38Speaker 02

  Maybe he didn't know whether to start a parade or start a war.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  He was a fun guy. I knew a lot of people who knew him. I didn't get a chance to meet him. I saw him once at the Laugh Factory. I ran into him. I said hi, but that was it. I never really got a chance to talk to him.

• 1:53:51Speaker 02

  So you did have a moment?

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a moment.

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  He was, he was just leaving the stage. He was outside and he had some...

• 1:54:00Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  Hot MILF with him.

• 1:54:03Speaker 02

  Awesome, thank you.

• 1:54:04Speaker 01

  I was like, "You go, Rodney."

• 1:54:05Speaker 02

  Why not? Why not?

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  It was probably his wife. He's, his wife is, who donated us these, these handwritten notes and also the photograph of him too. It's pretty cool. It's just, there's a few guys like that, that, you know, without them, you always wonder like, where would comedy be? Like, where would it ever turn up? Like, so many people, like Pryor and him and... Lenny Bruce, so many people that just like changed everything.

• 1:54:35Speaker 02

  Carlin.

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  Carlin, yeah. So many people, just Kinison.

• 1:54:39Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  They just changed the whole thing. But Dangerfield was one of the rare ones that introduced new comics to people. Like those, that's where everybody found out about Kinison, that's where everybody found out about Dice Clay, Don Marraera, Lenny Clark, all these guys, Robert Schimmel, they all started out on the Rodney Dangerfield HBO comedy specials.

• 1:54:59Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:00Speaker 02

  So he would have like a...

• 1:55:02Speaker 01

  He would like have his favorite comedians.

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  He would just have like a show where he would like introduce his favorite comedians.

• 1:55:08Speaker 02

  But he'd have to scout them at the clubs?

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  Yep, he would go see them.

• 1:55:11Speaker 02

  So he'd just go out?

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  And he had his own club in New York City, Dangerfield's.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:16Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  But he was, you know, he was interested in promoting comedy too, you know. He was just a fucking amazing guy. It's such a cool moment you had with him.

• 1:55:29Speaker 02

  I can still, I can see it. I mean, it's like, it's, there's nothing tricky about that memory, you know?

• 1:55:34Speaker 01

  What was it like being with your dad while he was filming Apocalypse Now?

• 1:55:39Speaker 02

  It was, it was a lot of that in the book.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  How old were you?

• 1:55:42Speaker 02

  I was, I was, I went there as a ten year old.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 1:55:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had my eleventh birthday there. Spent a to- a combined total of eight or nine months there. And that, that was going back and forth, you know? It was, uh, it was just, it was, it wasn't just another country, it was another planet. You know, we'd seen, you know, different parts of the world, traveling with him, you know, Mexico, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, places like that, you know, but then you get to the Philippines and it was just, um, you just got a sense that, um, wow, that this is all going on at the same time that we've been in Malibu, like...

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:56:30Speaker 02

  Kind of, you know?

• 1:56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:32Speaker 02

  Having fun and, and just doing cool shit. And that, and so you visit a place like that and you get in the middle of it and, and, and engage in, in, in this entirely just, just, just... It's just a new, such a surreal reality. Um, and then, oh, wait a minute, they're here to make a movie. And it's about a film that, uh, it's, it's, it's about a, it's a film about a war that Eric did end, barely ended like a year ago, right?

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:01Speaker 02

  Fourteen months ago, when it's Saigon Fall, it's seventy-five, right?

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're, and I mean, it was like right at the tail end of it, um, and so, yeah, it was, uh, we, you know, we were able to do enough stuff like recreationally, you know, that, there, there was a lake and you could water ski, you could fish, you could do those kinds of things if you didn't want to go to the set with dad. But once you went and saw the set where dad was, you didn't give a fuck about water sports or fish or anything because what, what, what, what they'd built and, and what they were trying to create was, uh, was, was, was mind blowing. Because, you know, Coppola built Kurt's compound out of practical materials.

• 1:57:51Speaker 02

  It wasn't like, you know, like, uh, like plaster covered chicken wire and rebar. These were like, you know, two-ton boulders.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:01Speaker 02

  They brought in and started stacking in the jungle, uh, and, and, you know, and then a lot of it would start sinking. Couldn't build a foundation in a riverbank, right?

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:13Speaker 02

  Um, but then they, just the mix of people and the talent and Dennis Hopper and Brando and DeVal and, and it just, it was, every day felt completely unique. There, there was not, there was no, you, you'd go to the set and you were going to see something completely different than what you saw the day before.

• 1:58:37Speaker 02

  It was, it was wild.

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and I, I gravitated towards this gentleman named Fred Blau, who I mentioned in the book. He was the key, he was the key makeup artist, you know, FX guy. And so he was building all the prosthetics for all the carnage you see in the movie. You know, so I'd walk into a shop and there'd just be arms and legs and heads and... But I knew it was all fake, you know? So as a ten-year-old, when you start seeing how it's made and, and, you know, so, so gore, um, I think I write in the book, um, was never... Gore in movies wa-wa-wa-was never emotional, it was, it was technical.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:59:15Speaker 02

  You know? And, but, but, but still kept me really curious about, about how it was done and, and just the, the, the, the artisans behind it that, that could create those effects.

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  How long were you over there for?

• 1:59:28Speaker 02

  Uh, a total of eight months.

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  Maybe nine, yeah, and it was, it was three.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  At ten years old?

• 1:59:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was three at first, and then maybe four at first, and then we went back and then Dad has the heart attack, and then we went back and stayed for like another four, four months, yeah. So, um, yeah, it was, and, and people say, "So, you know, growing up on sets, you must have like dreamed about being an actor." And I'm like, "Yeah, until I got to the set and almost killed my dad," you know? That's not a job, you're just gonna like wrap your arms around and say, "When can I start?" You know?

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:05Speaker 02

  Um, but it also, um, it, it, it, ju-just the scope of the filmmaking was really exciting and, and, you know, I didn't really understand it as a ten or eleven-year-old. Um, but I knew, I, I, I knew there was something about it that, that, that required a mu- a much, you know, closer look, and, and I had a very keen interest in, in just, you know, what it, what it, what, what, what would it take to, to like build this, you know, th-this reality, this fake reality? "Oh, but wait, the subject is based in reality, but everything else around it is fake," so...

• 2:00:48Speaker 01

  That's a very strange experience for a ten-year-old.

• 2:00:51Speaker 02

  It is, yeah.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  On such a grand scale.

• 2:00:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  When it becomes what Apocalypse Now became.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  Because it was like a culturally defining moment.

• 2:01:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  I mean, it wa- and it, it's a movie that... It kind of eclipses all other war movies.

• 2:01:08Speaker 02

  It does.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  It really does.

• 2:01:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't, I don't think there's been a film like it before or since. I think.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  No, it's a true masterpiece.

• 2:01:19Speaker 02

  It really is. Yeah. And, and, and there's no computers. There's nothing generated. It's all had to be there on the day. And when you watch that, the, the, you know, when, when, when, when Kilgore takes the beachhead, that chopper assault, I mean, when you look at the, just what they had, what they committed to.

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:40Speaker 02

  To bring that to the screen is just, it's impossible. And then you, you, you see some of the documentary stuff about, he was like, those were on loan from the Philippine Army. And then like midday, they had to go fight the rebels somewhere else. And they told Francis, we gotta leave now with the choppers. And he's like, I have 18 cameras set up. The whole, the river is filled with bombs. Where are you going? We'll see you tomorrow.

• 2:02:05Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:02:06Speaker 02

  Stuff like that. Yeah.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:02:09Speaker 02

  Pretty wild.

• 2:02:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. But that must've like, for you, like to eventually become an actor in Platoon, that had to be kind of surreal.

• 2:02:19Speaker 02

  How does that happen?

• 2:02:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:02:21Speaker 02

  How does that happen?

• 2:02:22Speaker 01

  How does that happen 11 years later?

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Or, or 10.

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause I did, I did Platoon at 20.

• 2:02:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:02:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. So how do I go back to the same country?

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  10 years later.

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  10 years later with the same subject, right?

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:02:39Speaker 02

  Narrate the fucking thing. And then it, it, it's elevated to be on par with the one.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's one of the only films that gets mentioned in the same breath as Apocalypse Now when it comes to war films.

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I'm a much bigger fan of Apocalypse than Platoon. And that is primarily about just the, the scope and the complication and, and just what, you know, um, uh,

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  uh, difficulty factor.

• 2:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:13Speaker 02

  Difficulty factor.

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  Well, it took forever, right?

• 2:03:15Speaker 02

  It took forever. Yeah.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  How many years did it take?

• 2:03:17Speaker 02

  Um.

• 2:03:18Speaker 01

  It was like eight or nine years, right?

• 2:03:20Speaker 02

  It, I don't, I don't know when Francis conceived it.

• 2:03:26Speaker 02

  It came out in seventy-nine. I think it, did it come out in August of seventy-nine?

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  How many, let's just Google, how many years it-

• 2:03:34Speaker 02

  August seventy-nine.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  How many years did it take to make Apocalypse Now? Cause I think it went way over budget, right?

• 2:03:40Speaker 02

  Oh, it did? Oh, yeah. And by today's standards, that's like a, you know, that's like a Fox Searchlight budget.

• 2:03:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:03:49Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:03:50Speaker 01

  And Laurence Fishburne was like, what? How old was he at the time?

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  He started the film at fourteen. But-

• 2:03:59Speaker 01

  And it came out in seventy-nine?

• 2:04:01Speaker 04

  Originally due to be released on Coppola's thirty-eighth birthday of April seventy-seven, so it took two extra years.

• 2:04:08Speaker 02

  Wow. And imagine-

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  So, when was, when did the, the project start?

• 2:04:13Speaker 04

  I mean, varying times of discussions. Casting started February seventy-six is when Steve McQueen dropped out, so the-

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  So, it's not as many years as I thought it was?

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  They shot with Harvey Keitel for a few weeks as Willard. Did you know that?

• 2:04:29Speaker 01

  Really? No.

• 2:04:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And, um, then Francis, it just was, he'd made the wrong choice.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:04:38Speaker 02

  Harvey was doing it, you know, whatever he could, but Francis just saw it differently and had met Dad during the Godfather auditions and said, "Let me meet with Marty."

• 2:04:48Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  You can tell people, um, that don't really know my dad that well, call him Marty. I run into people in the street and they're like, "Hey, give, give Marty my best." And I'm like, "Who the fuck is Marty?" People are calling Martin. No. They know I'm better, you know?

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Well, people that pretend to know someone always like to throw a Y on the end of it, makes it look tight.

• 2:05:12Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:05:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, I would be like, "Chucky."

• 2:05:17Speaker 01

  You're still Charlie.

• 2:05:18Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 2:05:19Speaker 01

  But I would be like Joey.

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  Joey, my gosh. I could never think of you as a Joey.

• 2:05:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:24Speaker 02

  No. But, but imagine this with Apocalypse, um, that, um, so I spend that much time, there's all that shit that happened. I even brought home like props and things, you know, severed hands and Ifagao jewelry and all this cool shit, right? All these great stories and then didn't have anything tangible to back any of it. I mean, mom took a lot of photos, but like, nobody could go to the theater.

• 2:05:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:05:46Speaker 02

  And then see, oh yeah, Charlie talked about that. Oh yeah, he was there that day.

• 2:05:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:05:51Speaker 02

  Everybody had to wait. And when you're that age, you know, waiting two or three is like waiting a decade, right?

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:05:57Speaker 02

  So that was, that was kind of a trip. Um, but when I saw it at the Center of a Dome in seventy millimeter, you know? Um, and it's like, man, when those choppers, when you hear them, you hear just they're, they're, they're, they're all around you. Um, they're, they're, they're, they're, a film will never open like that again and have that kind of an impact. Did, I mean, did you see it at the Dome when you first saw it?

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  No, no. I don't remember where I first saw it. I first saw it, I think, on a regular TV at home.

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  Oh shit, okay.

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  You know, because I was too little to watch it in seventy-nine. Is that what it was? Um, maybe I saw it when it came out on HBO or something like that for the first time. But when I really got into it was when I got a home theater and I got surround sound and I got Apocalypse, uh, redo. The Apocalypse Now redo, the, like, the new, newly mastered one.

• 2:06:51Speaker 02

  Got it, okay.

• 2:06:52Speaker 01

  It's fucking sensational.

• 2:06:54Speaker 02

  So you have, you finally had that experience, yeah.

• 2:06:56Speaker 01

  Oh my god, it was so good. I was like, this movie is wild. It's so well done. And it's just so epic, like, for you to have been there live while they were putting that together and then to see it all pieced together and all, I mean,

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  that had to be an insane experience.

• 2:07:15Speaker 02

  Well, and, and, and a lot of it was a surprise seeing it on the screen. Because like I talk about in the book, not so much in the doc, it was hard to get close to the action on Apocalypse. Cause the way the sets were constructed, because of the way, you know, Francis had everything lit. Um, it was super claustrophobic, like in, you know, Kurt's Temple and Compound and places like that. Um, and, and, um, it was also fucking dangerous to be on that set.

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:07:40Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? Snakes and shit and.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:43Speaker 02

  And just like, a lot of weird people, you know?

• 2:07:47Speaker 02

  And so, uh. Francis was just like, come one, come all, you know?

• 2:07:53Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  But, but yeah, so then it's like I wasn't there for any, any of the Chopper Assault. I was, I could see Hopper at a distance in that outfit with those cameras, walking with Dad. I couldn't hear what he was saying. So to then see that scene where, you know, Dad first steps off the boat at the compound and Hopper has that incredible monologue.

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:16Speaker 02

  You got the cigarettes, that's what I've been dreaming about. And it's just like, so to have that, that kind of, that, that, to have been there that long and still be a completely fresh cinematic experience was a trip.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Did you ever get imposter syndrome, like when you were doing Platoon?

• 2:08:37Speaker 01

  Did you ever get like, how the fuck am I here? Cause it's so quick, between you being 10.

• 2:08:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  Being in the jungle while they're filming Apocalypse Now, to you starring in Platoon. Had you settled into that? Or were you ever like, how the fuck do I deserve this? One of the things that John Cryer says in the documentary thing about you.

• 2:08:56Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 2:08:57Speaker 01

  He might be on to something.

• 2:08:58Speaker 02

  It's very insightful.

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:00Speaker 02

  It's very insightful.

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. He said that you probably feel like you don't deserve all this, so you fuck it all up.

• 2:09:06Speaker 02

  Sure. He's not wrong. He's not wrong.

• 2:09:11Speaker 02

  But, and then I, I had a comment in some interview the other day. And I said, well, what the fuck, John? You kind of like laid that on me, like, you know, a couple decades sooner, man.

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  Great advice, however.

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  A little late.

• 2:09:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you can't tell anybody that. They have to kind of figure it out.

• 2:09:32Speaker 02

  They do. But the thing about Platoon and when it happened, um, the good news is that I had done enough film work.

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  You know, not, not like super memorable films, except maybe, uh, parts of Red Dawn, I think are pretty memorable. Just, you know, with the film kind of, you know, what it's for, what it was about. I think parts of Bueller were kind of memorable, first Bueller, right?

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:09:55Speaker 02

  But, um, but yeah, so, so it was, was just sort of getting, um,

• 2:10:02Speaker 02

  More comfortable in front of a camera, more comfortable sort of, you know, being able to think on film and actually, you know, breathe on film.

• 2:10:12Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:10:13Speaker 02

  I know that sounds kinda like actor schmactery, but it's actually a thing. Cause you're gonna talk about controlling your breath in every other area of life.

• 2:10:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:10:21Speaker 02

  Right?

• 2:10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:22Speaker 02

  And it's the same as true as an actor.

• 2:10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:10:26Speaker 02

  Even doing the show, even doing Two and a Half, for that first scene, I was, I was usually off, I was usually like about to make an entrance from somewhere and I'd be back there, chain smoking, Marlboro Reds, and just trying to figure out the first scene. But then, when you'd hear the, you'd hear the, you'd hear the stage go quiet, right? Someone yells, you know, speeding, sound, market. And then if I could get that last breath to go to the bottom, I knew this first take was gonna be awesome.

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  Mmm.

• 2:10:56Speaker 02

  When the breath stopped about, like at the sternum, I was fucked.

• 2:11:01Speaker 01

  Shallow breath.

• 2:11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:03Speaker 02

  Cause then you can't, then you're, and then the thing, and then, yeah, and then that first take is just a pancake.

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:11:08Speaker 02

  Which sucks because that's the first time the audience is gonna see it.

• 2:11:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  You kinda want that one to be, you know, if there's, if there's a cute girl in the crowd, that's the one you want her watching.

• 2:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:18Speaker 02

  Not the second one where she's already heard the fucking jokes and now you're just doing whatever, you know?

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  Right, now you're like, oh, this show sucks.

• 2:11:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. The live performance thing is weird, cause they don't really do it anymore. I mean, I don't think there's very many shows that still do that kind of a sitcom in front of a live audience, multiple cameras.

• 2:11:36Speaker 02

  There's very few. I, uh, I think Tim Allen's show still does.

• 2:11:40Speaker 01

  What, what is that on?

• 2:11:41Speaker 02

  Uh...

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  Is that on Fox?

• 2:11:43Speaker 02

  I think it's ABC. Yeah.

• 2:11:47Speaker 01

  So he still does the traditional multi-camera, live audience?

• 2:11:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, cause, yeah, a guy I worked with, a friend of mine is on that writing staff.

• 2:11:53Speaker 01

  God, there used to be all over the television.

• 2:11:55Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:11:55Speaker 01

  There used to be tons of them.

• 2:11:58Speaker 02

  Oh, I think Chuck's new show on Netflix, um...

• 2:12:04Speaker 02

  It's called Leanne Lorraine shit. Leanne, yeah, um, I think that that's a live audience.

• 2:12:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:12:13Speaker 02

  You know.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  Okay, so they're still doing some of that work. They're fun. It's fun when when it works, you know.

• 2:12:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  It's like it's it's a missing genre in today's culture.

• 2:12:24Speaker 02

  You're right. You're right.

• 2:12:25Speaker 01

  Most of what was on late at night.

• 2:12:27Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  At nighttime.

• 2:12:28Speaker 02

  You're right.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  When you got done having dinner.

• 2:12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  You would sit down and watch Friends or you wouldn't sit down and watch Seinfeld or Two and a Half Men or, you know.

• 2:12:36Speaker 02

  Comfort viewing.

• 2:12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, um, my family binge watched Big Bang Theory. I never watched it when it was on the air. We binge watched it.

• 2:12:45Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  It's a good fucking show.

• 2:12:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were.

• 2:12:48Speaker 01

  Funny show. I dismissed it. I was like, ah, it's a corny sitcom. Bullshit. It's a good show.

• 2:12:54Speaker 02

  Right on.

• 2:12:54Speaker 01

  Solid show.

• 2:12:55Speaker 02

  Right on, yeah. That kid, kid, that that young man.

• 2:12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:59Speaker 02

  Jim, right, had some of the most complicated dialogue that anybody's ever been saddled with ever.

• 2:13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's the first autistic star of an action show or of a sitcom.

• 2:13:09Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  You're kind of celebrating his emotional disconnection.

• 2:13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, but delivering it like like Rain Man, you know, and just with laser.

• 2:13:20Speaker 01

  He nailed it.

• 2:13:20Speaker 02

  Laser precision, yeah.

• 2:13:22Speaker 01

  It's a really well-written show. It's very funny. That guy Chuck Lorreys had how many fucking hits? That guy's had a ton of hits.

• 2:13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  Maybe more than anybody.

• 2:13:32Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 2:13:33Speaker 01

  The sitcom world.

• 2:13:33Speaker 02

  Probably, yeah, yeah. Yeah, um, they were.

• 2:13:38Speaker 01

  Glad you guys are friends again.

• 2:13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so am I. So am I. No, that that sucked having that out there, you know, um. You know, I did finally actually remember that fucking thing and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna.

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 2:13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's the other component to that frickin' tour, to that meltdown, to that thing. There was a moment when I was only in rehab for like, I don't know, three weeks or a month. It wasn't like one of those extended stays. It was just like a.

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:03Speaker 02

  You know, just like a, a, a.

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  Quick little.

• 2:14:06Speaker 02

  Quick little.

• 2:14:07Speaker 01

  Little tune up.

• 2:14:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a spin drive, whatever they call it, um, and I got the call, we wanna, we wanna renegotiate the giant contract for season eight and nine, you know? And I I was on the phone, I said, I I don't, I don't think so. And they're like, what, you don't think you're gonna get paid? I'm like, no, I don't, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think we should do it. I'm not, I, I think seven is like, you know. Mantle War 7, some other cool sevens, you know, I don't think, I think 7 is like plenty. I think we've, I think we've told all the stories that we can mine from that, from that Malibu house on the beach with those people. And they're like, no, no, you don't understand, man. This is when it all like, this is when it turns into like a legacy play for your fucking kids and their kids and that and that and that. And then the part they always leave out is in, in our cut.

• 2:14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:53Speaker 02

  In our fucking cut.

• 2:14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the big part.

• 2:14:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  That's why they're on the phone.

• 2:14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I sat on the phone, and Mark and I have talked about that, talked to me, Mark Berg, my manager, and I said, Mark, if I go back there, man, it's gonna go really fucking bad. I just know it. He's like, well, you're, you're, you're projecting that. I said, I'm not projecting shit, man. I'm just, I'm just smart enough to know how I feel about it now. Got a little bit of clarity in this month I'm in the thing. I said, if I, if I go back there, I just, I got a, I got a bad feeling, Mark.

• 2:15:27Speaker 01

  Why going back to work would send you off the rails?

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  Just that I had run up against a thing that I, I had lost passion for the show, I'd lost passion for the process.

• 2:15:36Speaker 01

  Okay, so that if you went and just did it just for the money, you would find some ways to stimulate yourself?

• 2:15:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. Oh, yeah.

• 2:15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that I would have to do something to enhance.

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  I said that about a lot of guys that got caught on shows that sucked. I knew a lot of guys who got caught on shows where they were getting paid, but they did not like the show, and it was like a bad sitcom. And those guys all went crazy. Those guys all started doing a lot of drugs, or they started spending too much money, or something. They did something to distract themselves. Cause they did not like what they were doing. And they, they didn't feel satisfied.

• 2:16:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, but they were getting so much money.

• 2:16:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:16:19Speaker 01

  They're like, what am I gonna do? I'm getting a hundred thousand dollars a week. I'm like, oh, God.

• 2:16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:23Speaker 01

  What do you do? You can't quit.

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  I was, I was making fifty-four thousand an hour.

• 2:16:29Speaker 02

  That's pre taxes, so was I.

• 2:16:31Speaker 01

  And you said no to season eight and nine. I'd be like, do I have to wear a dress?

• 2:16:36Speaker 02

  Right? Well, I'll, I'll, I'll wear.

• 2:16:38Speaker 01

  What do I have to do? Let's go.

• 2:16:39Speaker 02

  I wore Dangerfield's robe at that point.

• 2:16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd be like, let's go.

• 2:16:42Speaker 02

  No, but, um, uh, no, that, that was after I, I got kind of crowbarred into it, you know? Why not crowbarred? I had to ultimately say yes. I got on that, you know? But, um, it was just, I was just the wrong guy in that moment, in that pocket of time to like, give that much fucking money to, man.

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:02Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:17:03Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:17:04Speaker 02

  And like, I'd buy a bunch of cars and then invite a bunch of girls over and then just say, pick one.

• 2:17:10Speaker 01

  And then you did that other thing where you had that other show after that, that you got paid like a ton of money in advance for, right?

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  Um, you talking about anger management?

• 2:17:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:17:20Speaker 02

  Uh, no, it's supposed to get, uh, it was, it was, it was called a 1090.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a crazy scenario.

• 2:17:29Speaker 02

  How they suck you into that is they say, look, you're not going to get a ton on the, on, on the front side, but you're going to be, you know, you're going to own a third of the show. You're like forty, thirty-seven, thirty-eight percent of the show in perpetuity. So, we're going to do a hundred episodes and it's the, uh, it's the South Park, um, uh, model. That was the first 1090 that really just blew it up and everybody got fucking rich. So you do these ten episodes, you do a ten-episode pilot. And then if you hit, if, if the average number of those ten episodes comes in at like, I don't know, at like a, like a, above a four, or like a five-one or something, that it's like a share, right? Um, then it activates the next ninety.

• 2:18:13Speaker 02

  And so then you're doing those ninety to have a sellable, uh, uh, syndication package that will just go all over the world and, and, you know, do what, what syndicated sitcoms do. And so you've done it, you know, and, you know, when you say not a lot on, on the front side, you're still, you know, still getting a buck fifty an app, you know? Two hundred, that's pretty good money, right? Um, but it's not, but you kind of, you kind of eat it on that side, knowing that it's an investment for

• 2:18:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:18:45Speaker 02

  the other thing to, to pay gangbusters, you know?

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  So you, did you guys, you did the ten episodes and then you got to do all of them?

• 2:18:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:18:52Speaker 01

  So you wanted to do it a hundred?

• 2:18:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:18:55Speaker 01

  But you did them in a short period of time, right?

• 2:18:57Speaker 02

  Two and a half years.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 2:18:58Speaker 02

  I know, I know, yeah.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 2:19:00Speaker 02

  And I was not ready to go back to work. Yeah, and that's the thing I talk about in the book, the only reason I did was because I wanted to show those guys across town that I was hireable again, you know?

• 2:19:09Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:19:10Speaker 02

  And that is not, that is not any way to, any mindset to like lead the troops.

• 2:19:16Speaker 02

  And it, you know, again, it started pretty cool, did the ten, it was great, you know, doing some pretty good work and the shows were smart and funny. And then we got into that ninety and it was about, it was about twenty, no, what am I saying? It's probably like, like nine or eleven into it, I started feeling exactly the same shit that I felt.

• 2:19:42Speaker 01

  On Two and a Half.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  Going past that point, I knew my enthusiasm and passion had had a, had an expiration date.

• 2:19:51Speaker 01

  You couldn't manufacture it?

• 2:19:52Speaker 02

  I tried, but I couldn't, I didn't, I didn't like the show enough, you know? I loved the people I was working with, you know, from, from the writers, the crew, the actors, they were terrific.

• 2:20:02Speaker 01

  You didn't like the final product?

• 2:20:03Speaker 02

  I didn't, yeah, and I didn't, I stopped caring. But I still, you know, had enough dough to keep the lifestyle and all that other fun shit going on and just stayed way too fucking high to really engage in this thing. I mean, I was doing this thing, Joe, where I would, I was partying, you know, hitting the fucking pipe, either girls or porn or both or, you know, whoever showed up, yeah, fucking, yeah, hey, come on in, come on in, there's plenty to go around. And then, um, there's this thing, I think I, I felt like I was time traveling from like one AM to like seven, felt like.

• 2:20:46Speaker 02

  Eleven, I don't know, fifteen minutes. Whereas, you know, nine to midnight felt normal. Wow, we had plenty of time to do everything. And then like, the, the, the hours I really needed to like, you know, settle in and enjoy, those just vanished.

• 2:21:00Speaker 01

  And then you're back to work.

• 2:21:01Speaker 02

  No, I got someone banging on my fucking door. Dude, you're late, what the fuck? And I'm still fucking sideways.

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:21:07Speaker 02

  So I'd pop a couple shots, or like half a Xanax or something, and I said, I just need, and I would literally do this thing, it was a fifteen minute, twenty minute nap, where I would just hit the pillow, I'd try to meditate with a body just vibrating from crack all night. Trying to meditate? At that point, I'm trying to fucking time travel, I'm trying to levitate, right? And, but I could feel, okay, I've, I've generated some calmness, and then I would hit the shower, and I would, I'd be in the shower, and I'd say, okay, I only have to navigate from this shower to the next shower. And that's about eleven, maybe twelve hours, shower to shower.

• 2:21:49Speaker 02

  Remember that commercial like in the seventies, wasn't there a fucking, like a deodorant or a?

• 2:21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, something shower to shower.

• 2:21:55Speaker 02

  Shower to shower, yeah.

• 2:21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it lasted from one shower to the next.

• 2:21:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm trying to last from one shower to the next, man, no shit. And then, but I'd get to work, and then have that midday drop off. And I wasn't hitting the pipe at work, but I needed to keep some, some fuel in the engine. So I'd be, you know, I'd start drinking, and then, man, people look at sitcoms like, oh, they're out there having a fun time. Man, it is super fucking complicated. Well, you've done them, right? It's like, it's like a dance, isn't it? It's like a, it's like a choreographed thing. And so, it is hard enough to do, and to do well, completely focused, and, and, and with all your shit intact, right?

• 2:22:38Speaker 02

  You start getting over here and trying to be that specific, just with marks, with jokes, with timing, with other people. And then, a lot of my energy is going to trying to disguise, like, the condition I'm really in. You know, and trying to make excuses.

• 2:22:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:22:58Speaker 02

  Oh, I had a med mix up today. Med, med mix up? I'm on two pills, they're the same fucking thing at the same time every day. There's no med mix up. You know, it's like, what are we doing? And so, yeah, and then that turns into that thing where you just, then they start getting behind. And I would just be like, ah, just sorry for the overtime, I'll just pay for it. And, you know, they should, they should have not taken the money, they should have said, we're shutting down. You need to fucking go, go, go get well, or go get just a little better than what you're showing up as. Um, and so that show kind of never really had a chance to be anything, really, anything special. You know? Because I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't really care about it.

• 2:23:42Speaker 02

  And the thing that sucks about that, looking back, it's like, think about all the energy and the hard work that all those other people put into it, and committed to it because I said yes.

• 2:23:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:23:54Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:23:55Speaker 01

  And there's also, there's a bunch of people that were rooting for you. Cause they, they saw what happened with Two and a Half Men, it was a big public disaster. You leave, is his career ruined? Oh no, look, he's got another show, oh, Charlie's back.

• 2:24:09Speaker 02

  But, did anybody even say, um, okay, so hold on, what did he do between that, that, you know, after that last swan dive into the volcano that we all watched? And then he's on the, he's back, he's on another show, like, what did he do between then and there?

• 2:24:26Speaker 01

  Well, the narrative on you was, as an outsider, was that you were one of the rare guys who could party like that, but still pull it off and have a career.

• 2:24:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:24:35Speaker 01

  And I think your ex-wife had said that, that she never worried about you, you would always land on your feet.

• 2:24:42Speaker 01

  Because you were very talented. And you were also very loved, you know?

• 2:24:46Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you.

• 2:24:47Speaker 01

  Which is one of the reasons why people embraced you when you were talking about how much crack you were doing. You know, when you were saying all that, people, there was, they weren't mad at you. They're like, he's fucking partying, you know? It was, it was a very odd time, where so many people who don't admit that they party, you know, because of their Job or because of whatever.

• 2:25:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:25:07Speaker 01

  They try to like, keep it hot, you know, hidden under, under wraps.

• 2:25:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:25:10Speaker 01

  And you were doing a live interview with this lady. And you're, you're talking to her about smoking rocks and, and she was flabbergasted, like you could tell.

• 2:25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  She did not expect that kind of candor.

• 2:25:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:25:25Speaker 01

  With discussion of illicit drugs.

• 2:25:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  It was just like, nobody ever done that before.

• 2:25:31Speaker 02

  Well, she asked, I mean.

• 2:25:32Speaker 01

  Right, but nobody ever embraced it.

• 2:25:34Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 2:25:35Speaker 01

  Right, everybody else is like, well, you know, it's a terrible time in my life. I was, I got so low, I was doing crack cocaine.

• 2:25:42Speaker 02

  Right, right, right. Comes from a place of shame.

• 2:25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:45Speaker 01

  And you didn't have any shame.

• 2:25:46Speaker 02

  Didn't.

• 2:25:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:25:47Speaker 02

  Because I'd watched something like a couple of days before I sat down with Andrea Canning. And it was this old interview with Charlie Gibson on, on some special they did for ABC, right? I don't even think, it wasn't a GMA piece. It was like a more in-depth. One of those exposes they do, you know? And it was me coming out of rehab. And I, I remember watching myself and just being such a, I was like, that guy's a fucking sissy, man. That guy's a fucking pussy. What's wrong with him? Look at him, all that shame, all that embarrassment. Like, no, no, no. We're not doing that anymore. So that, that got locked in.

• 2:26:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:26:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, cause I, I remember how I, I just remember how I felt watching me doing it their way.

• 2:26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:26Speaker 02

  I was like, no, no, no. And then, you know, I got all, I got the brain full of, you know, fucking nuclear crazy cream that I'm on fucking. You know, just covering myself in. And, uh.

• 2:26:40Speaker 02

  That's what two K's, that's like the donuts, right?

• 2:26:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:26:43Speaker 02

  And, yeah, man, and, and, and you know where the material came from, right? Those slogans and all that stuff?

• 2:26:51Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:26:51Speaker 02

  Was Brian Wilson.

• 2:26:53Speaker 01

  From the Beach Boys?

• 2:26:54Speaker 02

  No, the Brian Wilson pitcher for the Giants, the guy they called the Beard.

• 2:26:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:26:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was on the phone with him like the day, a couple of days before that, cause Tony and I, Tony Todd and I were watching. Baseball highlights. I was like, wow, this guy's a fucking trip. Tony, get him on the phone. Right? The next day, I'm on the phone with him. I think he was just trying to give me a pep talk. He was like, hey, man, just know that guys like us, you know, we're not, we're not, we're not like everybody else. You know, we're, we're, we're different, man. We got, we got, you know, we got tiger blood running through our veins. We got fucking Adonis DNA. We got, you know, we're, we, we, we don't know how to lose, man, because we're always fucking winning. Right? So I hear all this and he's probably thinking, cool, man, I just kind of inspired him. Maybe just to get to the next moment, you know? That stuff went in there, man.

• 2:27:42Speaker 02

  And it stayed on a fucking loop. And I sat down and the interview doesn't start like that, which is a trip. I'm trying to keep it together. I'm trying to give her the stuff she needs to like, maybe, I don't even know. What was the thrust of that story? Being fired or some shit?

• 2:27:58Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 2:28:00Speaker 02

  So, but there's a moment that's not on film. And Andrea can't deny this. She makes a crack about these two girlfriends that I'm living with. Right? And, and expects me to just like, like let it, just, you know, brush it off. And then answer her next question. And I said, hold on a second. I said, that was really rude. She's like, which part? I'm like, what you just, how you just addressed them? You owe them an apology. And she was like, okay, I'm paraphrasing some of this, right? But then this is kind of, this is the tone of it. And so.

• 2:28:40Speaker 01

  How did she address them?

• 2:28:42Speaker 02

  Um, I felt like they were dismissed as just like porn, porn chicks, you know? Because one was a porn chick, the other was not. It's called Natty. So she kind of got rolled into that.

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:28:58Speaker 02

  unfairly, you know, and so, so then they, you know, she, Andrew's like, oh my God, okay, you know, I'm sorry. I didn't mean anything by that, you know, but I'm over here, you know, with the thing, um, and, and I'm not, I'm not letting it go. I, I asked to apologize. We should have been past it. Now I'm stewing.

• 2:29:19Speaker 01

  Oh, so you ramped up now?

• 2:29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And that's when it turned into, and then I start hearing Brian's stuff. And I'm like, ah, I don't know, man, I have fucking tiger blood. And then it all just, and then it, it got away from me and I, and I couldn't pull it back. I couldn't pull it back. And then everybody's like, okay, well, that was different. I mean, it's kind of fucking interesting and unique and whatever, man. Well, um, well, let's just, let's, let's, you know, let's just have a quiet night and, and, and, and we'll see how that plays out, you know? And I wake up into a world of, not, not the world I said goodnight to six hours earlier. And my friends are banging on the door. People are, you know,

• 2:30:05Speaker 02

  sending me, you know, videos and stuff. And he's like, dude, the fucking, the world's on fire with your shit, man. I'm like, all right, what does that mean? Um, and there's like, there's folk songs and rap songs and people like marching in the streets and there's already t-shirts and it's just, it's just, it has just gone, it exploded.

• 2:30:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:26Speaker 02

  And so, it's not like I could jump on my roof with a bullhorn and say, all right, everybody, okay, let's just, you know.

• 2:30:33Speaker 01

  UFC fighters were saying they had tiger blood. They were joking around about it.

• 2:30:37Speaker 02

  See? Yeah. I mean, it got, it got,

• 2:30:42Speaker 01

  It got away from you.

• 2:30:43Speaker 02

  It penetrated, man. Yeah, it achieved penetration.

• 2:30:46Speaker 01

  Well, no one had ever done an interview like that before.

• 2:30:50Speaker 02

  I didn't, I, yeah, I, I, I wasn't thinking about that in the moment. I was just fucking pissed and it wasn't going to be sissy Charles from, from the nineties, you know?

• 2:31:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:31:04Speaker 02

  It was like this whole convergence of all these elements and all these emotions and all these feelings and, and also the, you know, resentment I had in myself, you know, and just like, all right, I'm just going to pick some targets. And, and, and, you know, would have been nice had it been sort of.

• 2:31:25Speaker 02

  If I could have just sort of been herded, just kind of, you know, away from it, you know.

• 2:31:32Speaker 01

  Have you ever thought of what your life would be like if you didn't do that interview?

• 2:31:37Speaker 02

  I, I've started to. No, I've started, I've started to try to walk into that village, right? But as soon as I take a look around, none of it really makes sense because it, it's, I, I can't really imagine it. You know, what, what do you think it would, I mean, what would, it's, it's hard to kind of even put those pieces together.

• 2:32:00Speaker 01

  I wonder if you had ever, would have gotten sober?

• 2:32:04Speaker 02

  Interesting. You mean, you mean today's sober sober?

• 2:32:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, today's sober sober. You, you might have had to have that complete chaos, tailspin, free fall, crash.

• 2:32:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:32:17Speaker 01

  Publicly.

• 2:32:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:32:18Speaker 01

  To just eventually like gather your shit together and go, okay.

• 2:32:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:32:23Speaker 01

  All right, time to learn and grow.

• 2:32:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:32:26Speaker 01

  Obviously, that wasn't smart. Let's do it differently.

• 2:32:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:32:30Speaker 01

  Let's get it together and step by step, day by day, and look, here you are, almost nine years later.

• 2:32:36Speaker 02

  Almost eight, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:32:38Speaker 01

  That's a, you, you always wonder, like, maybe you have to have, that was your rock bottom moment, and it was public, you know? Because the whole world got to see it.

• 2:32:49Speaker 02

  Like a full cleanse.

• 2:32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:51Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:32:51Speaker 01

  Just a purging of all of it. And, you know, and still, you have to battle with the, this reinforcement. Because now everybody is loving the fact that, you know, you're winning, and that, you know, you're talking about how much crack you smoke and how crazy it is, and you got all these hot girls, and everyone's like, he's winning, he's winning. And so now, there's no incentive at all to get healthy.

• 2:33:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:33:17Speaker 01

  Which is kind of nuts. And not only that, financially, you're kind of... It kind of helps you to be like a little off the rails. It's like you're kind of known for that, you know? Like, and then you have this big tour and everybody's coming out to see you.

• 2:33:30Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 2:33:31Speaker 01

  Which was crazy for you to do. Like, the first one where you did it without comedians was just bananas.

• 2:33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a complete train wreck, yeah. It was a disaster.

• 2:33:43Speaker 01

  But you guys pulled it together. And that was like kind of the story of like your career when things have fallen apart. People want you to pull it together. So even though you had that disastrous show and everybody knew it was a disastrous show.

• 2:33:55Speaker 02

  In Detroit.

• 2:33:55Speaker 01

  People were still coming out to see the other ones.

• 2:33:57Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, yeah. I had the option after the Detroit massacre of flying to Chicago or taking the bus. The tour bus, right? And I said, I need those seven or eight hours on the bus. And they're like, why? I said, because I'm going to rewrite the entire show. And I think, I think Natty was on that trip. I think maybe Rick. I know Shady was on. Anyway, and I just, I just, there was a place, you know, a room in the back. And I just kind of barricaded myself with a pad of paper and a pen and just went to town.

• 2:34:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:34:33Speaker 02

  And just sort of started trying to reshape it. And when I got to Chicago, they were expecting all this, all the special effects we needed from that, you know, all that garbage. I said, we traveled with none of it. I said, here's the new show. They were like, you sure about this? I'm like, just trust me. And that, and unfortunately, that's the night where it got applauded and kept the train on the tracks. Was Chicago, you know? But isn't that weird to have the wherewithal, like, in the middle of all that? And they still had enough, enough something? Enough of that thing to just, maybe that's just pride at that point.

• 2:35:10Speaker 01

  Certainly, it's also, that's the impact of public humiliation.

• 2:35:15Speaker 02

  Thank you, yeah.

• 2:35:16Speaker 01

  Enough.

• 2:35:17Speaker 02

  How about that?

• 2:35:18Speaker 01

  Time to get this fucking, get this thing back on track.

• 2:35:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it was, it was just, it was, the curtain comes up and there's two chairs. And I have a moderator. And it's just a conversation. Imagine that.

• 2:35:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:32Speaker 02

  Didn't reinvent anything.

• 2:35:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:35:34Speaker 02

  You know, and I, oh, oh, I wrote a letter is what it was. Dear Chicago. And it's like this whole thing, you know, including them. Um, and, and yeah, so I got them, I kinda got them back on my side and then we sat down.

• 2:35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, people realized also you were figuring this tour thing out on the fly.

• 2:35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:55Speaker 02

  It, it, it, it was essentially, it was 21 cities in like 24 days with no act.

• 2:36:05Speaker 02

  That's what it was, man.

• 2:36:07Speaker 01

  So who, I know you had Jeff Ross was on some of them.

• 2:36:09Speaker 02

  Jeff Ross, yeah.

• 2:36:10Speaker 01

  Who's great at that, a master at Off the Cuff.

• 2:36:13Speaker 02

  Wow, he showed up and really just put.

• 2:36:16Speaker 01

  Perfect guy for that.

• 2:36:17Speaker 02

  He put a shape on it.

• 2:36:18Speaker 01

  Yes. And then you had Russell on some of them too, right?

• 2:36:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:36:21Speaker 01

  Who's also a master at Off the Cuff.

• 2:36:23Speaker 02

  Yes, and he, and he, um, he was so relieved that, that the two chairs had shown up. Cause that's when he joined us in Canada.

• 2:36:33Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 2:36:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, he was terrific.

• 2:36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, Russell's awesome.

• 2:36:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, the first night sitting with him, some dude, like, um, what's like the Canadian version of like a quarter? What's their dollar? A looney, okay, but that's a dollar?

• 2:36:48Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 2:36:49Speaker 02

  Okay. Is that the heavy one?

• 2:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, someone threw it at him?

• 2:36:52Speaker 02

  No, at me.

• 2:36:53Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:36:54Speaker 02

  Like, we're in the chair for maybe five minutes and I get from the balcony, I get hit with one right here.

• 2:37:01Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:37:02Speaker 02

  And it just, it was like getting punched by like someone with a skinny metal hand, you know? And, uh, and I just had to, I had to kinda pause into that and they, they got the guy thrown out. But I just thought, wow, I could've lost an eye.

• 2:37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:18Speaker 02

  Russell could've lost an eye. And it was just like, wow, alright.

• 2:37:22Speaker 01

  Also, pretty good shot.

• 2:37:24Speaker 02

  Really good shot.

• 2:37:25Speaker 01

  Guy throws a looney from the balcony and hits it in the head, that's, that's impressive.

• 2:37:29Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:37:30Speaker 01

  Cause that's not an aerodynamic thing.

• 2:37:31Speaker 02

  It's not. No.

• 2:37:33Speaker 01

  How you throwing that?

• 2:37:33Speaker 02

  You have to kinda factor in.

• 2:37:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:36Speaker 01

  It's a lot of flipping in the air.

• 2:37:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's kinda like a boomerang or something, you know?

• 2:37:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a frisbee.

• 2:37:41Speaker 02

  It's a frisbee, yeah.

• 2:37:42Speaker 01

  Little tiny frisbee.

• 2:37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. So anyways, so that's, there were just moments like that, that, that I, um, I guess just little cosmic reminders that not everybody was on my side.

• 2:37:51Speaker 01

  Right, right, yeah. Yeah, which is important too.

• 2:37:56Speaker 02

  Hey, can I hit the bathroom really quickly?

• 2:37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can actually wrap it up, we're getting close.

• 2:38:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:38:00Speaker 01

  You wanna wrap it up?

• 2:38:02Speaker 02

  Um, can we just touch on a couple of things before we do?

• 2:38:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:38:04Speaker 02

  Is that cool?

• 2:38:05Speaker 01

  Stay a leak and we'll come back.

• 2:38:05Speaker 02

  Okay, cool.

• 2:38:07Speaker 01

  Should we bring this up? I guess we have to. This has just happened. Uh, we just found out that Charlie Kirk got shot.

• 2:38:16Speaker 02

  It's fucking awful.

• 2:38:17Speaker 01

  And is he dead?

• 2:38:20Speaker 04

  No, I don't think so.

• 2:38:21Speaker 02

  That's what was just-

• 2:38:22Speaker 01

  One of the guys out there just said it was confirmed that he's dead.

• 2:38:25Speaker 02

  In the lobby was just-

• 2:38:26Speaker 04

  I was looking, I've been looking. I haven't seen anything that said confirmed.

• 2:38:32Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:38:35Speaker 02

  Murder for having a different opinion from somebody else.

• 2:38:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:39Speaker 02

  Different ideology from somebody else.

• 2:38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:43Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know.

• 2:38:45Speaker 02

  Beliefs that didn't align.

• 2:38:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:38:47Speaker 02

  I'm sorry?

• 2:38:48Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:38:49Speaker 02

  Rest in peace. Fuck.

• 2:38:50Speaker 04

  We're in a Fox News.

• 2:38:52Speaker 02

  Jesus. Tw- tw- twenty-seven years old, maybe? Thirty?

• 2:38:55Speaker 01

  Do they even have a, a suspect?

• 2:38:58Speaker 04

  I don't know. That's why I don't, I don't, I'm literally trying to track it all on Twitter and it's all-

• 2:39:04Speaker 02

  Fuck. Fuck. Nobody deserves, he doesn't deserve that. Nobody deserves that.

• 2:39:11Speaker 01

  So, so, were you saying that MSNBC had a crazy take on it? What was their take?

• 2:39:18Speaker 04

  I'm, I'm literally just reading Twitter, so I didn't see the video. I just saw people talking about tweets of it. Uh, I'll pull it up though.

• 2:39:29Speaker 01

  Fuck.

• 2:39:32Speaker 04

  And even now they could have taken it down.

• 2:39:36Speaker 01

  It was a tweet or a video?

• 2:39:37Speaker 04

  I don't, I, so I don't, I don't, I, I'm, you know, doing the show while I'm trying to figure-

• 2:39:41Speaker 01

  Right, no, I understand.

• 2:39:42Speaker 04

  Uh, I think they were live on the air and people clipped what they were talking about. It's not a tweet, it's not on their Twitter account or anything.

• 2:39:50Speaker 01

  So it's someone's hot take?

• 2:39:52Speaker 04

  I don't think so. And the, live in the moment.

• 2:39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a crazy take. Crazy take is, that, what was the take? That they deserved it?

• 2:40:01Speaker 04

  I don't, I, I, that's why I didn't want to pair-

• 2:40:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:40:06Speaker 04

  There you go. Um...

• 2:40:10Speaker 04

  Dave Portnoy reposted this.

• 2:40:11Speaker 01

  You found it? Alright, here. Put it-

• 2:40:12Speaker 04

  It's only ten seconds.

• 2:40:14Speaker 00

  Which a shooting like this happens.

• 2:40:16Speaker 01

  You can put the headphones on, you can hear it. Yeah, and again, I emphasize what you just emphasized. We don't know any of the full details of this, that, we don't know if-

• 2:40:22Speaker 04

  This was a supporter shooting their gun off in celebration, or so we have no idea about. That's what, that's what the crazy thing was.

• 2:40:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that's it?

• 2:40:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, that if it was a supporter shooting their gun off in celebration.

• 2:40:32Speaker 01

  What? Someone shot their gun off in celebration and killed him.

• 2:40:38Speaker 02

  You do, you know, you shoot celebration guns in the air.

• 2:40:40Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 2:40:41Speaker 02

  Just, uh...

• 2:40:42Speaker 01

  What a crazy take. Like, it might not have been someone assassinating someone for the wrong opinion.

• 2:40:48Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 2:40:49Speaker 01

  Fuck.

• 2:40:51Speaker 02

  Why does something like that have to be spun?

• 2:40:54Speaker 01

  Their ideology.

• 2:40:56Speaker 02

  No, I know, but I'm just saying it's like...

• 2:40:57Speaker 01

  I mean, they want to try to pin it on a Trump supporter with a crazy Trump supporter with a gun.

• 2:41:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:41:02Speaker 01

  Going wacky.

• 2:41:03Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:41:03Speaker 01

  We don't know if it was a supporter shooting off a gun in celebration, because you know they do that.

• 2:41:08Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 2:41:08Speaker 01

  A lot of folks are just constantly out there shooting off guns at large gatherings in celebration.

• 2:41:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, 4th of July, you can't leave your house, you know?

• 2:41:15Speaker 01

  What the fuck?

• 2:41:17Speaker 02

  No, that is, um, that, that, that's a, wow.

• 2:41:20Speaker 01

  There's gonna be a lot of people celebrating this.

• 2:41:24Speaker 01

  It's so scary. It's so dangerous to, to, to, to celebrate or to in any way encourage this kind of behavior from human beings. He's not a violent guy who's talking, talking to people on college campuses, wasn't even particularly rude, who's tried to be pretty reasonable with people.

• 2:41:45Speaker 02

  Everything I saw seemed reasonable.

• 2:41:47Speaker 01

  He's a very intelligent guy.

• 2:41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:48Speaker 01

  You know, whether you agree with him or don't, and there's a lot of stuff that I didn't agree with him on, that's fine.

• 2:41:53Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 2:41:53Speaker 01

  You're allowed to disagree with people without celebrating the fact they got shot.

• 2:41:57Speaker 02

  But you can't disrespect his passion.

• 2:41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, what you're supposed to do with a guy like that, if you're opposing him, is debate him.

• 2:42:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:42:05Speaker 01

  Have a conversation where your, your argument is more compelling than his.

• 2:42:09Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:42:10Speaker 01

  That's what people should be celebrating, discourse, you know? We used to do that.

• 2:42:14Speaker 02

  Do some homework and, and bring it to the table.

• 2:42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible. This podcast has been a lot about violence, man.

• 2:42:23Speaker 02

  It has, but not this kind.

• 2:42:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:42:27Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, not, not, um, something so in the moment right now from someone th- th- th- this currently, current.

• 2:42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:37Speaker 02

  That, that, that we see and, and are, are, are, you know, aware of daily.

• 2:42:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:42:45Speaker 02

  Right?

• 2:42:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, he's one of those young influencers, right? This time from the right, who is, uh, all over social media, always doing these various shows and debating people and talking to people and giving speeches and...

• 2:43:02Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. No one deserves this, folks. No one that has different opinions, no one deserves that.

• 2:43:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:43:11Speaker 01

  This is horrible.

• 2:43:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:43:14Speaker 01

  But I know people are gonna celebrate it, 'cause this is a fucked up time and people have really fallen into this trap of us against them.

• 2:43:22Speaker 02

  But it's also gonna make people not wanna be as courageous or not wanna be as, as, as, as, as forthright with, with the things they believe. It's gonna, it's gonna put people on guard.

• 2:43:32Speaker 01

  It could, it also could...

• 2:43:34Speaker 02

  It could do the opposite.

• 2:43:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:35Speaker 02

  I, I, I get that, but there's also going to be that sort of ingrained thing now.

• 2:43:41Speaker 01

  You're correct, yeah.

• 2:43:42Speaker 02

  And, y- you know, and, y- just, you know, going through the whole New York thing, I just, you know, sometimes you're, you know, there's a, there's a crowd and it's all love. It's all love and all they want is, you know, is, is your signature or a photo or this and that. But there's so much of those moments where you're spent looking down.

• 2:44:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:44:01Speaker 02

  You're looking down the entire time.

• 2:44:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:03Speaker 02

  And I, I don't think anybody wants to shoot me. I don't, I don't think that that's kind of out in the world, right?

• 2:44:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:44:10Speaker 02

  But it just, it's, it's the type of shit that just lives in, in, in the back of one's mind.

• 2:44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:15Speaker 02

  Because how could it not?

• 2:44:17Speaker 01

  How could it not?

• 2:44:18Speaker 02

  And then, and then the thing like today, and you're like, okay, that, that's why it's in, it's, it's, it's in the back of our minds.

• 2:44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:26Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:44:27Speaker 01

  Well, it's, you know, when we were talking about assassinations earlier, whether it's Kennedy or RFK or, y- you know, you think of them in the past, you think of them like... You don't, when something happens in the, the current, like right now with this one with Charlie Kirk, it doesn't seem real.

• 2:44:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:44:45Speaker 01

  It seems very surreal.

• 2:44:46Speaker 02

  It does.

• 2:44:46Speaker 01

  It seems like, it's gonna take a long time before we reference this as something that happened. Like, oh, remember he got shot and killed? Oh, yeah. Like, right now, it's, just doesn't seem real. It seems, uh, it seems so crazy that just, it's not registering.

• 2:45:04Speaker 02

  It's not, no.

• 2:45:09Speaker 02

  Is, is, is he, is he a friend?

• 2:45:10Speaker 01

  No, uh, I met him once. I met him once at a gun range, of all places.

• 2:45:15Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:45:15Speaker 01

  Um.

• 2:45:16Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:45:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:20Speaker 01

  Uh, he was a nice guy, um, when I met him.

• 2:45:25Speaker 01

  It's a fucked up time. People are so divided in this country. So divided, and there's so many people that love it. They love that we're divided and they profit off that division. And they stoke the fires. And, and they do it for their own profit, and it's so fucking gross. It's so gross. And to encourage this kind of thing is really one of the most

• 2:45:52Speaker 01

  horrific things that you could do after someone dies horribly like this is celebrate.

• 2:45:59Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's, it's, it's unf-

• 2:46:01Speaker 01

  There should be a wake-up call for everybody, like, this is nuts. This is nuts.

• 2:46:05Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's, it's unforgivable that, that, to spend things like that. Cause the people they're never thinking about is, is, is that person's family.

• 2:46:14Speaker 01

  I think they're just, that's just like default with those. They gaslight you by default.

• 2:46:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:46:20Speaker 01

  So immediately, they try to find some reason why the, whatever the, the thing is that's in the news is someone else's fault.

• 2:46:27Speaker 02

  Right, of course.

• 2:46:27Speaker 01

  It's just all gaslighting. And that's what they're paid to do. They're paid propagandists. Masquerading as the news. So weird. Fuck.

• 2:46:38Speaker 02

  No, this is, this is, it's a, it's a dark day.

• 2:46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. It is. Well, one of the things, two things is gonna happen. Either people are gonna realize how fucking insane this is and we have to have a conversation about being able to have conversations.

• 2:46:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:46:56Speaker 01

  Or it's gonna get a lot worse. That's what's scary.

• 2:47:01Speaker 01

  Scary, this could spark off some kind of a real violent conflict.

• 2:47:07Speaker 01

  You know, that guy had a lot of fans.

• 2:47:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:09Speaker 01

  A lot of people loved that guy.

• 2:47:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 2:47:11Speaker 01

  And if they find out that he got killed for something that they vehemently oppose in the first place, it could send people over the edge.

• 2:47:18Speaker 02

  It could, it could, yeah. There's always that flashpoint moment in any, you know, in previous times like this.

• 2:47:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:47:29Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:47:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:47:30Speaker 02

  There's always that tipping point moment.

• 2:47:33Speaker 01

  Like the Rodney King film.

• 2:47:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:47:35Speaker 01

  Right? Something, just like, that's it.

• 2:47:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, this also highlights just a little bit of perspective, like how lucky Trump is, was.

• 2:47:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:47:49Speaker 02

  You know? And it's just like, Charlie didn't get the benefit of a head turn or a couple of, a couple of microns or millimeters or, you know? And it's just like, wow, wow, who decides that?

• 2:48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:05Speaker 02

  You know? That is just, there's this thing.

• 2:48:08Speaker 01

  The Trump thing is bananas.

• 2:48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:09Speaker 01

  But then it just clips his ear.

• 2:48:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause he makes a reference to something.

• 2:48:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:15Speaker 02

  And then it's just, yeah.

• 2:48:17Speaker 01

  And then it clips his ear, where if he didn't turn his head, he'd be dead. And it would have been on live on CNN.

• 2:48:24Speaker 02

  How do we know more about an assassination?

• 2:48:29Speaker 01

  From 1963?

• 2:48:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. That we do about the Trump assassination. Yeah, eight months ago.

• 2:48:33Speaker 01

  That one, that story is fucked. There's a lot of weird stuff with that story. There's a cellphone that was traveling because of metadata, you know, cellphone was traveling from offices outside of the offices of the FBI in that area, all the way to this guy, multiple times.

• 2:48:49Speaker 02

  Imagine that.

• 2:48:49Speaker 01

  He was 20 years old, his apartment was professionally scrubbed, there was no silverware in it, he had no social media presence. He, you know, was regularly training with like military guys. He was regularly training and shooting. Like, one guy had remembered him from a range.

• 2:49:07Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:49:09Speaker 01

  Like, what? He was in a BlackRock commercial.

• 2:49:11Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 2:49:12Speaker 01

  Two years before.

• 2:49:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:49:13Speaker 01

  Like, what?

• 2:49:15Speaker 02

  His, his, his chosen rooftop is just kind of between the two quadrants that they're assigned to cover.

• 2:49:20Speaker 01

  Not only that.

• 2:49:21Speaker 02

  It's just, it's just a blind spot.

• 2:49:23Speaker 01

  The, the excuse for why they didn't have officers on that rooftop was it was too sloped. The slope was too steep, which made zero sense.

• 2:49:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:49:32Speaker 01

  Cause he climbed up it. He was fine.

• 2:49:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did.

• 2:49:34Speaker 01

  What the fuck are you talking about? It didn't make any sense. Not only that, the, the one where the snipers were perched had a steeper slope. Made no sense.

• 2:49:42Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:49:42Speaker 01

  It was fucking nuts. They found that guy walking around the, the, the grounds a half an hour before the event with a fucking rangefinder.

• 2:49:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If, if, if you're not, if you're not on a golf course.

• 2:49:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:58Speaker 02

  With a rangefinder.

• 2:49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:00Speaker 02

  Then, you, you know.

• 2:50:02Speaker 01

  You're really gonna shoot something.

• 2:50:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:05Speaker 01

  That's what they're for.

• 2:50:06Speaker 02

  But it's just, man, it's, uh... It, it, it sucks that, that, to say things like, you know, the, the, the, these are the times we, we currently inhabit. You know, and, and that, that, that there's nothing that is an absolutely factual statement.

• 2:50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:24Speaker 02

  And it sucks to have to, you, you know... To, to, to exist in, in, inside of that.

• 2:50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:33Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:50:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very strange, man.

• 2:50:35Speaker 02

  It's very strange.

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  Very strange.

• 2:50:37Speaker 02

  It's very strange.

• 2:50:38Speaker 01

  It's very strange and, you know, we've talked about it a bunch of times, but it bears repeating. I think a lot of it is highlighted by bots. A lot of it is, uh, people are being inflamed online by people that aren't even real accounts.

• 2:50:52Speaker 02

  Interesting. See, I, I don't, I, I don't study any of that.

• 2:50:55Speaker 01

  Oh, there's a lot of that going on. I think it's a giant percentage of all online discourse where people are hating and saying mean things about people's political beliefs or anti-Israel things or anti-Palestine things or whatever. I just think a giant ton of that is foreign governments who are running these bot farms.

• 2:51:15Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:51:15Speaker 01

  And it's been proven. They know for a fact. China actually got caught recently. What was this? The ChatGPT thing? They were using Chat, they were using OpenAI's software.

• 2:51:26Speaker 04

  ChatGPT blocked a bunch of accounts from multiple countries that had suspicious activity.

• 2:51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they were commenting on like blocking of USAID money and a bunch of different like political subjects. And what they're basically doing is just getting people to fight. Just that's what they want. They want constant fighting, constant, like we have to take action. We have to, you know, constantly stoking the flames.

• 2:51:51Speaker 02

  Right, right, right. Wow.

• 2:51:52Speaker 01

  So it's not even organic. Some of it's organic for sure, but a lot of it is being enhanced by foreign governments for sure. And probably some of it by our own government. What they did with the Manson family, you think they stopped there? You think some of that kind of stuff isn't going on right now that we don't know about right now because there hasn't been a Tom O'Neill to write a book about it?

• 2:52:13Speaker 02

  Sure, sure. And then we also never know which stuff was the beta test for, you know, for that, for that, you know, specific type of program or that specific type of op to be rolled out.

• 2:52:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:52:25Speaker 02

  And like where, you know, okay, let's, let's, let's see.

• 2:52:28Speaker 01

  How they react to this.

• 2:52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, hell. That worked like a charm. Okay, activate more of those, you know?

• 2:52:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:40Speaker 01

  Jesus.

• 2:52:42Speaker 02

  So how do we, how do we wrap this up on a positive note?

• 2:52:45Speaker 01

  I don't think we can.

• 2:52:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:52:46Speaker 01

  I think it is what it is.

• 2:52:47Speaker 02

  It is what it is.

• 2:52:48Speaker 01

  I think we just have to deal with that.

• 2:52:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:50Speaker 01

  Well, um, listen, man, it was great to finally actually meet you.

• 2:52:53Speaker 02

  This was amazing.

• 2:52:54Speaker 01

  It was a lot of fun.

• 2:52:54Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:52:55Speaker 01

  Really enjoyed talking to you.

• 2:52:56Speaker 02

  Thank you. Yeah, no, I, I, I think you'll notice now, I, I, I always need a few minutes to get warmed up.

• 2:53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53:01Speaker 02

  Get settled in.

• 2:53:02Speaker 01

  No, you seemed cool right off the bat, man.

• 2:53:04Speaker 02

  No, thank you, thank you.

• 2:53:05Speaker 01

  You had some great stories too, Jesus.

• 2:53:06Speaker 02

  Thank you. My just, my, sometimes my brain, like we talked about.

• 2:53:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53:09Speaker 02

  You know, it wants to go somewhere else when I was trying to...

• 2:53:12Speaker 01

  It's amazing your brain works as good as it does considering all the things you've done to it.

• 2:53:15Speaker 02

  Oh, that's awesome. Thank you.

• 2:53:16Speaker 01

  Right? If you think about it?

• 2:53:17Speaker 02

  Thank you. Yeah, yeah. There's that part.

• 2:53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53:20Speaker 02

  There's that part.

• 2:53:21Speaker 01

  That's a big part.

• 2:53:21Speaker 02

  Cause people are like, you know, "Hey, man, you should get some laser work on your face." I'm like, "Dude, I'm lucky this thing is still fucking attached."

• 2:53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53:30Speaker 02

  So, go fuck yourself.

• 2:53:31Speaker 01

  You actually look way better than you've looked in a long time, I think.

• 2:53:35Speaker 02

  Oh, right on. Thank you.

• 2:53:36Speaker 01

  I think the sobriety suits you. It really does.

• 2:53:37Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:53:38Speaker 01

  You look really healthy.

• 2:53:39Speaker 02

  You know, I took a page out of your book, um, a very specific page, and I, and if, if, even if it's a rumor, it worked. Um, I use a sauna blanket, right? This thing called Hyrados, and I'm not sponsored by them. I just bought one and I fucking love it. I use it at home, and then I hear, "Hey, man, fucking Joe travels with his," right?

• 2:53:59Speaker 01

  I have one of those sauna blankets, yeah.

• 2:54:00Speaker 02

  But do you travel with it?

• 2:54:01Speaker 01

  I do if I know that there's not gonna be a sauna.

• 2:54:04Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. So I was like...

• 2:54:06Speaker 01

  A lot of times I'll just try to find a place that has a sauna.

• 2:54:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:54:09Speaker 02

  I was like, "Well, fuck it. If he's traveling with his..."

• 2:54:11Speaker 01

  You definitely can though. It's good. They're great.

• 2:54:12Speaker 02

  "I'm gonna travel with mine."

• 2:54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:54:14Speaker 02

  So I've had it on this trip. I, I've traveled with it. It's a pain in the ass. I'm lugging this rolling duffel and shit. Who cares? But so, so thank you.

• 2:54:22Speaker 01

  It's worth it, though.

• 2:54:23Speaker 02

  Thank you for the idea. Yeah.

• 2:54:25Speaker 01

  Those are great because, those sauna blankets are great because they're portable and you could always just get it in.

• 2:54:30Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:54:31Speaker 01

  I, I really genuinely prefer a real sauna if you have one because I like to stretch out in the sauna.

• 2:54:36Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:54:37Speaker 01

  It's, it's the best time ever to stretch.

• 2:54:39Speaker 02

  But as far as time, with, with the, with the portable blanket is like, eh, I, I tell people it's like a Bikram class without all the yelling and pain. Right?

• 2:54:52Speaker 01

  A little bit.

• 2:54:53Speaker 02

  Well, do you, do you get drenched in that thing?

• 2:54:55Speaker 01

  Oh, sure. That's a lot of what Bikram is, you know. A lot of it is heat shock therapy.

• 2:54:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:55:00Speaker 01

  You know, it's also the yoga and the exercises, which are great, and also the fact that you're more pliable when you're really warm and heated up like that. Which really helps. But a lot of what there, there was actually a study... That they were doing at Harvard, I don't know if they completed it. But they were doing it a couple of years back about the benefits of hot yoga. And whether they're comparable to the medical, the known medical benefits of sauna, which are pretty, pretty well documented.

• 2:55:28Speaker 02

  And, and what, what was the conclusion?

• 2:55:30Speaker 01

  They, I don't know. I, I have to think it's gotta be similar.

• 2:55:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:55:34Speaker 01

  Because I've been in both, you know, I've been in a lot of hot saunas and I've done a lot of hot yoga and that you, because of the exercise, I think you reach very similar body temperatures.

• 2:55:44Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 2:55:45Speaker 01

  And your, your heart rate jacks up because you're so, you're so hot.

• 2:55:48Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:55:50Speaker 01

  You know, you could barely cool yourself off with a glass of water when they let you have a sip.

• 2:55:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:55:54Speaker 01

  In between things, you're allowed to take a sip of water.

• 2:55:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:55:56Speaker 01

  But it's, uh, it's real similar and it's 90 minutes, you know, which is fucking brutal.

• 2:56:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:02Speaker 01

  You can get through a, a real good Bikram, hot yoga class. At the end of that, man, you're, you're good.

• 2:56:08Speaker 02

  You're, yeah, you're, you're gonna have a, you, you have a different day in front of you.

• 2:56:12Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. If we all did that every day, it was like how everyone started their day. The world would be so much more peaceful.

• 2:56:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, no, you're right.

• 2:56:21Speaker 01

  It really would.

• 2:56:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really would.

• 2:56:22Speaker 01

  It'd be a much, much, much better place. And you don't have to fucking do anything hard in the gym. You don't have to lift weights. You don't have to punch the bag. All those things are great, but just do a hot yoga class for 90 minutes.

• 2:56:35Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:56:35Speaker 01

  Every day, you, you will live in a different world.

• 2:56:38Speaker 02

  Yep. 13 up, 13 down, right?

• 2:56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you'll, you'll live in a world of kindness and sweet people and hello friend.

• 2:56:46Speaker 02

  Right. Because you've already, you've already put yourself through something that nobody else can deliver the rest of the day.

• 2:56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:56:54Speaker 02

  They can't deliver that kind of pain you just inflicted on yourself.

• 2:56:57Speaker 01

  And it's a constant battle to see if you can use a hundred percent effort.

• 2:57:02Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:57:03Speaker 01

  You're constantly battling, can I hold this pose for 15 more seconds?

• 2:57:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there's no cheat zone.

• 2:57:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:57:11Speaker 02

  There's no, you can't.

• 2:57:13Speaker 01

  Right, because you're always doing it a hundred percent of what you can do.

• 2:57:16Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, yeah. Yeah, no, I, I was, I, I was, I was going to his. His studio on, on like Rexford in the early eighties.

• 2:57:26Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:57:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. We were with that original crew.

• 2:57:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:57:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's one thing that was really cool. Um, Kareem was in there.

• 2:57:35Speaker 02

  And you know, the lot of the stuff with the arms above the head. He, he can only go about here.

• 2:57:41Speaker 02

  I would come in late sometimes and Kareem would already be in there. And so his shoes would be like next to his locker. So I would put my, still wearing my shoes inside his shoes. Just because I, I just had to. I mean, it's cool as fuck. It's Kareem, right? And so, but then Quincy Jones was also in there, right? And so, um, the mirror, you could see the front desk where you'd check in behind you, like you could see it. But it was behind us. We're all facing forward. And for about a six month period, you know, Quincy's in a little speedos. And he's giving, you know, he's giving it his all. He'd be in the middle of like the standing bow or the fricking head to knee or something like a triangle or something really complicated. And he'd stop.

• 2:58:25Speaker 02

  And he'd leave the class, but you'd see him going to the desk and writing shit down, fucking sweating in his speedo, right? He's writing shit down. He's sweating all over the paper. And he'd come back and try to, you know, resume what, what he was doing. And then this went on for a while and we came to find out later, guess what he was working on? If you think about the year, if you think about like what that, how his mind was being expanded, right? He was producing Thriller.

• 2:58:54Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 2:58:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he's getting inspired during the yoga, during the Bikram yoga. So we were kind of watching in the mirror, the, the, the best, I think the largest selling album ever perhaps? Right?

• 2:59:09Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 2:59:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:10Speaker 01

  It's gotta be up there.

• 2:59:11Speaker 02

  Being built behind us.

• 2:59:13Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:59:13Speaker 02

  Kind of a trip, right? Yeah.

• 2:59:16Speaker 01

  Wow. That, that shows you how hyper dialed in he is.

• 2:59:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:19Speaker 01

  Even in the middle of a yoga class, gotta run out. He's probably thinking about it with every pose.

• 2:59:24Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. Or, or some.

• 2:59:26Speaker 01

  And just had to write it down.

• 2:59:27Speaker 02

  Had to write it down.

• 2:59:28Speaker 01

  Wow. Cause most people aren't allowed to leave the class. But Quincy Jones has to write some shit down for Thriller. You gotta let him leave.

• 2:59:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. He gets that pass, doesn't he? Yeah.

• 2:59:37Speaker 01

  He gets the pass.

• 2:59:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:39Speaker 01

  He gets the pass.

• 2:59:41Speaker 02

  All right, brother. This is an absolute pleasure.

• 2:59:43Speaker 01

  It was an honor. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Best of luck for you in everything.

• 2:59:47Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:59:48Speaker 01

  All right. Bye, everybody.

• 3:00:03Speaker 00

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 3:00:05Speaker 05

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 3:00:08Speaker 00

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 3:00:11Speaker 05

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 3:00:12Speaker 00

  Make them remember you.

• 3:00:15Speaker 05

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Leaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 3:00:20Speaker 00

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