#2295 - Scott Payne

Scott Payne is a retired FBI Special Agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement investigating cases against drug trafficking organizations, human traffickers, outlaw motorcycle clubs, gangs, public corruption, and domestic terrorists. He is the co-author of the book "Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America’s Nazis" and the subject of the podcast "White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse," both created in collaboration with journalist Michelle Shephard. https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Code-Name-Pale-Horse/Scott-Payne/9781668032909 https://link.mgln.ai/63oNQg Join Visible by visiting visible.com/rogan and experience all-digital wireless with nothing to hide, with plans starting at $25/mo. Visit LifeLock.com/JOEROGAN to save up to 40% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Um, you've had a crazy fucking life, man. Like, a really crazy life.

• 0:15Speaker 03

  That's what I'm saying.

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  So, to get everybody up to speed, right from the beginning, you spent 25 years undercover working for the FBI in the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs.

• 0:29Speaker 03

  And then some, yes, sir.

• 0:30Joe Rogan?

  What a crazy, crazy life that is. What, first of all, how did you get, how did you first get started doing that?

• 0:39Speaker 03

  Uh, good question. I grew up in South Carolina, um, played ball, all that stuff. I, I was always kind of a, I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, because that's not it. You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses. Um, but I was kind of a bully of bullies. I didn't, I always looked out, I liked the underdog. Um, I bounced in college, uh, so I was already learning that gift of gab, um, and fight techniques and stuff like that. And then I got, I became a cop, because when I was in college, I took a course, I'm taking electives. I went to college so I'd have four more years to figure out what I was gonna do.

• 1:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18Speaker 03

  Because I didn't know what I was doing.

• 1:19Joe Rogan?

  Me too.

• 1:20Speaker 03

  Except partying.

• 1:21Joe Rogan?

  I did three years.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  I was good at partying. Um, but, uh, I hit an elective that was criminal justice, and man, I really liked it. Um, psychology was always a strong thing for me, but it took a backseat, and I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology. But during those criminal justice courses, I was like, at first, for a fleeting moment, I said, "I'm gonna be an attorney." "Yeah, I'll be an attorney." And then I realized, I'd be a terrible attorney. I said, "Because if I was the defense attorney, and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, 'They did it, right? That's not gonna get me any clients.'" And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kinison, grabbing them and going, "Say it." You did it. So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  And I did a ride along with cops and the department and that was it. But once I got in to law enforcement, I was uniform patrol for three years. Uh, I was just so fascinated with undercover. I don't know what it was. I can't really remember doing the book. I've tried to dive back in. People ask. I don't really remember. I just know that I loved undercover movies, period. If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was. I love them all. And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, uh, he was actually the world's strongest man in the late eighties. After Casimir.

• 2:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  He was a, he was a former marine, um, and big dude. And he, uh, as a task force had gone, on a task force had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And man, I just, I, I was, I wanted to be a biker. I grew up on motorcycles and then just started taking off from there.

• 3:00Joe Rogan?

  You gotta think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover. Cause it's such a theme.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  You think?

• 3:07Joe Rogan?

  It's been around, it's been around forever. The stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs. It's been around forever.

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Forty plus years right now. Easy.

• 3:15Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 3:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then, and then there's books made. There's books made. They go to court. They learn.

• 3:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So it was right after the Vietnam war, right? That's when all the biker gangs really started kicking off.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  It goes back to world, I mean, my, my history's bad, but I think it goes back to, uh, to world war at least two. Right? Because all those, the way it goes, everybody always asks what a one percenter is. And it goes back, I think it's 1947, but it goes back to when, uh, your veterans are getting out. They have nothing. They're not, they, they had no decompression back then. They had no plans or programs for them. And they've been out here living this raucous, rowdy life. And now they're back in the States and now they're supposed to just flip and be like.

• 3:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  So they started creating these clubs and they were doing some raucous and rowdy stuff. And then it was the president. Of the American Motorcycle Association, they came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of, listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law-abiding citizens. There's only 1% that's bad. And they took that as a badge of honor and said, we're 1%ers.

• 4:20Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 4:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. Cool stuff.

• 4:22Joe Rogan?

  Cool stuff. So who was the first person to infiltrate them?

• 4:25Speaker 03

  Oh, boy, I don't know. I don't.

• 4:27Joe Rogan?

  But it's so it's been going on forever. As soon as they found out, it's like it's been the case with the mob, it's been the case with everything.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 4:34Joe Rogan?

  Johnny Brasco.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  Yep. My mentor, one of my.

• 4:37Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. Joe Pesto. Absolutely.

• 4:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 4:40Speaker 03

  He helped certify me. I saw him probably within the last six months or so. He graciously, he did a blurb on the book, too.

• 4:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 4:48Speaker 03

  I call him boss man, you know?

• 4:49Joe Rogan?

  So do you remember your first undercover assignment?

• 4:52Speaker 03

  Uh, yes. Yeah.

• 4:53Joe Rogan?

  What'd you have to do?

• 4:55Speaker 03

  Uh, it was at the sheriff's office. So I, after three years of uniform, I make it, uh, to narcotics investigator. Well, you got, it's, it's a tough crowd, but we're funny, you know, but it's, it's just like a good military group or anything else. There's gonna be a lot of ribbing and stuff like that. So they, they said, hey, you're gonna go buy some dope tonight. It's my first time. Now, granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school and I was around those groups, but I never brought crack cocaine. I was already probably 6'4" and I probably was like 270 pounds. I, I did not look like I smoked crack. Unless I just fell off the wagon.

• 5:30Joe Rogan?

  Just feel recent.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Or I just started, yeah.

• 5:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef, you know?

• 5:37Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  I just stopped. Uh, but they told me that, hey, it's real easy. You're just gonna roll down to this corner. It's a non-drack, a drug, drug trafficking area. You're gonna roll down there, white boy, you're gonna roll down the window, they're gonna come up to you and say, what do you want? And back then, it was a 20. You'd just get a rock, 20 bucks for a rock. And say, all you gotta do is hold that 20 and say, you just want a 20. So I drove down there. I know, I was, I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone, but I was also scared to make a fool of myself in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me. And I roll down the street and I pull up and they come running up to the window, what you want? What you want? I cracked the window.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  I crack it about this far and I stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a vending machine.

• 6:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  I want a 20, you know? And the dude's like, he takes the 20, but he can't hand me the crack rock back through the cracked window. He's like, roll the damn window down. And I'm like, oh, my bad. It's probably like a sliver of soap, who knows? But that was my first drug buy. First undercover, like legit.

• 6:38Joe Rogan?

  And so what was the protocol? Like you had to buy the drug and then what do you do?

• 6:42Speaker 03

  It depends, uh, case by case basis. We may want to make numerous buys on that corner. Try to come in with the jump out boys, they used to call them and shut that corner down for a while. We may be trying to, to make buys on the low level people on the corner selling, who are probably most likely users, at least is my experience. So maybe like every five crack rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves. Um, and maybe we want to get them, build a case on them, kind of try to climb it up.

• 7:10Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. And then find out who's the distributor.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:12Joe Rogan?

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• 8:16Speaker 03

  And that's, that was like the state and local. Um, we, you hit it, everybody's a little different, but three buys hit them with a search warrant kind of thing, something like that.

• 8:25Joe Rogan?

  And ultimately, so when you're doing this, um, you're, you're, you're buying, you're trying to get a, develop some sort of a relationship or an understanding of how this thing goes down, how do you get to who's selling it to them? Do you have to arrest them first?

• 8:40Speaker 03

  Again, or you can do, there's all kinds of ways, but you could do like a wall off. In other words, not let everybody see us pick you off, you know? So you don't get burned, bring you in, talk to you, and this is what we got on you. We're trying to figure out who it is, and it's just traditional law enforcement. You're trying to find more intel and work your way up.

• 8:58Joe Rogan?

  And you offer them like community or something like that?

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Depends. Some people are, some people do it out of the goodness of their heart.

• 9:03Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, it's rare, uh, but I mean, you can do it. Hey, I'm patriotic. I want to help clean this up. These people are trying to sell me dope. I don't like them. I can go buy it for you. Uh, a lot of times we're paying a source, um, or they could be working off a charge. It could be part of their plea agreement.

• 9:21Joe Rogan?

  So this is your first one. You get comfortable doing that, and then how often are you doing this?

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't know. I mean, we could come in, let's just say there's six investigators on Northern or Southern Command Narcotics in Greenwood County. You, you might be one of my partners and we come in and you go, hey, I got a source. He's going to go make a buy tonight. You might hop in the car with him. It just happens. It gives, I mean, it's almost a daily thing.

• 9:45Joe Rogan?

  And so you develop your skills doing this, you get real good at being undercover, and then how do you move on to the big boys? How do you move on to biker gangs, Nazis?

• 9:54Speaker 03

  I got hired by the FBI.

• 9:56Joe Rogan?

  Wow. And was it specifically because you were good at undercover shit or no?

• 10:01Speaker 03

  If you see a picture of me, I had to, this is me, but for the academy, I mean, it's a cheesy, thin, fuzzy mustache, can't go past the crease of your lip behind tight. You go get your haircut at the PX in Quantico, it was usually foreign ladies, uh, that, that were cutting your hair. It don't matter how I'd explained what I wanted, I got the same haircut every time. You take it up a little bit here and not so much here. Oh, yeah, yeah. You're like, alright, there you go.

• 10:29Joe Rogan?

  I guess this is what we're doing.

• 10:30Speaker 03

  But one thing I noticed in the, at the state level was we would all go back then, the South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in Columbia, South Carolina. So we would go there and get certified. But in your county, I mean, how many ways can I shape, I'm in the same county and you're going out here making buys. How many times can I change my car, change my outfit, change my facial hair, the hair on my head? Until everybody starts knowing I'm a narc. You know, because when you're in that local environment, and I mean, I'm talking Greenville, South Carolina, Miami might be a little bit different or New York City. But you're going to court a lot and people are seeing you in court and then, so how do you roll out there? So a lot of it turns into just running sources.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  To me, I believe developing and running sources is hand in hand with undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer. And, and I don't have a felon on my record, but they do, they're still the ones we're wiring up and going in to get the evidence. So a lot of it, over the last many years with the defund the police and the, and the black eye. It's hard to recruit, it's hard enough to get people to fill the uniform slots. So you really don't have anybody doing undercover. Most of, most of your smaller departments that I've taught or talked to or learned from is they're just running sources.

• 11:55Joe Rogan?

  Really? So this all stopped during defund of the police, like the George Floyd times?

• 11:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of it, yeah. It's the pendulum swings, right? Or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to apply and they've got felons on their record. And we're like, bro, you can't, you can't be a cop. You got a felon on your record, you know? But I remember thinking, wouldn't it be kind of cool if South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database? Where it says, hey, Scott's skill set is biker, you know, riding motorcycles, can go in a biker bar, whatever, strip clubs, this, that and the other. Maybe Charleston County needs somebody. Wouldn't that be cool if I could just shoot down there and, and make buys for Charleston County, but go back? And that way, nobody knows me in Charleston County.

• 12:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  And when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what they do. You get certified in the FBI and you, I mean, you can go around the world.

• 12:48Joe Rogan?

  So what was your initial job in the FBI?

• 12:52Speaker 03

  You are a case agent. When you get hired, your only responsibility you have, uh, really, is you're a case agent. And that means you investigate, you do your own cases. Uh, I did that the entire career. Even when I was doing undercover, I was still a case agent. But I, uh, I went through the academy. I got New York City as my first office, and New York is the largest office. So they put you kind of like on a rotation. You don't just go straight to a squad. You're gonna be like, they don't want you to learn the city. They want you to learn the ins and outs of having a placard and the bus lane and all that stuff. Or just how to figure out how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel when six lanes go like that, you know? Um, but eventually I went through the rotation and I got placed on the Colombian drug squad.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  So there, then people start learning you were certified undercover at a state level and this, that and the other. So then they bought me something like, say, LA takes off a 3,000, and we're talking like 2,001 is 2,000, somewhere in there. So they take off, say, 3,000 pounds of weed in LA, and it was supposed to come to New York. Well, we go with them and say, man, can you send us all the stuff? They're, they're cutting leads to us saying, hey, it was supposed to go to this address. But we gotta build the exact replica box. And it depends on the US Attorney working the case. They may want assistant, United States Attorney. They may want to just us deliver it, and that's good enough. Some may want us to deliver it, pull away, and then they've got a hidden switch or something that notifies us when they open it, just to make

• 14:22Speaker 03

  that case tighter. So I started doing cameos on stuff like that. And then, uh, and then I landed in undercover, which I don't really talk about in the book because it's classified. And we are coming up on 25 years, which is usually when they declassify them. It's kind of been outed, but I just don't talk about it because I don't want to end up in the box, the lie detector, and have somebody beating me down. But I landed that undercover. And after about 30 days in San Antonio, I became, they gave me another 60-day extension, and I became the primary. And because I was there full-time working undercover, they transferred me to the San Antonio Division.

• 15:00Joe Rogan?

  So the first undercover gig, what was your, like, what was your job? Like, what were you, what were you pretending to do?

• 15:08Speaker 03

  The classified one, again, is classified.

• 15:10Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  But I will say this, I was a security guard. Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform, with a real gun on your hip? And now I'm making it to the FBI and I'm working third shift as a night at the museum, you know, with a flashlight.

• 15:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program and sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already in or slated for an undercover.

• 15:36Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. And so how, so you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments?

• 15:46Joe Rogan?

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• 18:15Speaker 03

  Happens, at least in my experience. What happened with me is I get certified. Our certification school is very, very intense. I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense. It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation. Not going to give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that I got certified in 2002. In 2003, I started role-playing and assistant at the school. I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired. Never 100% graduation rate. I don't know of any 100% graduation rate before I got

• 18:57Speaker 03

  into the program. And it's not hazing. You get 20 slots. So it's four groups of five. And generally, it goes like you get some trainings during the day and then we're running scenarios and we're putting you into live stuff. But day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep. I've seen people nut out and I and mine are in psych. I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know. Maybe we were on the SWAT team together. Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away. But you go to the UC school and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in, one of my buddies walked in. He looked like he'd been raped by a tribe.

• 19:39Speaker 03

  I walked, he got walked in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail. I'm like, are you okay? And some people, it's just, I would say that the reason the training is like that, it's not hazing. It's just so we don't lose anybody. Try to make it as real as you can. Well, you gotta find out who's gonna crack. Yeah. And think of this. In a real scenario, not all undercovers are like this, but in the ones I would usually do, there's gonna be a lot of times with no sleep. My skillset led me not to Wall Street. It didn't lead me to the yacht. It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscled for the mafia guy. It led

• 20:22Speaker 03

  me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. So I get certified and then I go back and role play. And that's when people start kinda seeing and you're trying, I mean, you're trying to make a name for yourself. I wasn't getting calls because on paper, I'm a white guy with no foreign language. But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, hey, you got anything? It's big country. You got anything? More medium now. But I mean, you know, I could even be little country at this point, you know. But I'd be like, hey, you got anything for any rednecks with no foreign language? And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh and then they finally asked me to come to the school. And once you do the school, now there's

• 21:03Speaker 03

  seasoned undercovers coming back. And they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions. And that's where I kind of started getting, getting into some things. It has to be one of the most exciting.

• 21:17Joe Rogan?

  Kinds of law enforcement.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  For me, absolutely.

• 21:20Joe Rogan?

  It has to be so crazy.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  And so we're gen- I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies.

• 21:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and that's gotta be a gigantic rush.

• 21:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  They're on to us.

• 21:36Joe Rogan?

  I've talked to a few guys that have done that kind of work and they always speak of it with sort of fond memories of how crazy it is. It's weird, it's like it's a very particular type of person that would want to put themselves in that highly stressful adrenaline charged situation where, you know, any mistake and they find out who you really are, you're dead.

• 21:55Speaker 03

  Could be.

• 21:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. Now you made me second guess my career.

• 22:01Joe Rogan?

  Seems like it worked out.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  I'm gonna call Cash now, I'll call Cash, hey, you think I could come back in?

• 22:08Joe Rogan?

  What was the first one that you got, the first assignment that you got where like, oh, boy, this is big leagues?

• 22:13Speaker 03

  That was the Outlaws case. I'd already done some undercovers, again, in the FBI, I'd done several street level things or numerous, whatever, at the state level. But I was doing a couple of cases in the FBI and they were smaller, you know, maybe it was supposed to be interstate transportation of stolen goods and it turned into a public corruption case, but when I landed the Outlaws case, that was, that was my first big and probably one of the biggest I did.

• 22:41Joe Rogan?

  So how does that go? How did that start?

• 22:44Speaker 03

  I'm not a smart man, so that's how it started.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  Why do you do this, Scott? I go, I'm not smart. I am stupid. I'm a glutton for punishment and my last name's Payne, you know? In that case, they did, they'll do canvases. A lot of times, so I was an undercover coordinator. Every division has an undercover coordinator, so you are the front line on all things covert and you're the liaison between headquarters and that field office. So if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, hey, I'll just put a text out to you, you interested? Or we may just send out a canvas and then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator and if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureau wide canvas and.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  See what we can get. I can't remember exactly if somebody called me on that one. I'm pretty sure. I don't remember that outlaw as being a canvas, but it possibly could have been.

• 23:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, you fit the bill.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, yeah.

• 23:43Joe Rogan?

  You look like a outlaw.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  It depends. Slash Viking, whatever. Yeah, it depends. See, that's what a lot of people, I'll get off on a tangent, but throughout my career, my mentors, my peers, people I've been blessed to mentor, some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents. I mean, Brainiac's awesome. They'll be like, man, I could never do what you do. My beard would be down to here, whatever, tatted up.

• 24:09Speaker 03

  And I'm like, well, don't do me. What do you, what's your background? And they're like, well, I was an accountant. And I'm like, with who before, before they had been? I was accountant with Disney or whatever. I was this. I was a lawyer. Well, you'd be you. I can, I'm not, somebody's probably gonna be pissed because they're gonna say it's tradecraft, but listen, I could bring you in.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  And you just walk into the group. I'm the primary. I've already laid all this stuff out. It's a chess game. We're always trying to stay four or five moves ahead. Or master of puppets. I'm just trying to connect with people and work, work the scene. But you come in and you dress as an accountant and you talk like an accountant and then you walk out? You're you. It's real.

• 24:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:51Speaker 03

  So.

• 24:52Joe Rogan?

  So there's roles for all sorts of different types of personalities and life skills?

• 24:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I'm like, you, you might see something where they say, I need a person this tall that speaks this language, that does this and knows this, but what are you trying to do? Essentially, the FBI works everything. And if, if a target, if we have predication or predicated target, or there's information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious. If we want to do an undercover, how do, how do I get close to you? I mean, what do you find attractive? Usually it's money in the criminal world. It's green, right? You can see the Mexican mafia working with the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. They hate each other, but they love green. And one needs guns and one needs dope and, you know, it all in the criminal world.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  But for that case, I went up, I got interviewed.

• 25:44Speaker 03

  Um, by, of course, the FBI. Um, there were task forces there, DEA was there, ATF was there, and they had been working this case for a while. And generally, this is the way it would work for me on these long-term type undercovers. The case team's been working this for a long time. They, a year plus. They've been building intelligence. Now, they've got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here, but to get that airtight case and to find out what's really going on, now they're at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover. And, uh, we came up with a plan, um, and I, and then I went, I went in cold. I tried to bump them,

• 26:28Speaker 03

  as we say, a cold bump, but, uh, I went into a bar that they frequented. I went there when they weren't there. It was a strip club. I used to bounce at strip clubs. In the book, I make a, a joke, uh, cause I call them a gentleman's club, but then I say that's an oxymoron, cause I'm like, everyone I've been in, there's not a lot of gentlemen in there, and that includes me back in the whatever days they were. But I knew how they work. So I went in there and I just started hanging out and I, of course, this accident in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm getting noticed as soon as I start talking. All right, where the hell are you from? And I kinda worked that and started working the bar, doing what I do. Not, everybody has their own way. Um, and let me say this, since this at the beginning,

• 27:13Speaker 03

  listen, there, for me, I want people to know it comes from a humble spot. There are men and women out there that have done way more undercovers than me. They have been through more heroin things than me. I already said, I've got mentors, I've got peers, I've got people, I've been blessed to mentor. Um, some of them don't wanna talk, uh, some of them haven't had the opportunity. So just know it's coming from a, a love kinda place.

• 27:36Joe Rogan?

  Got it. So when you say you work in the bar, what do you mean? You just like making friends with people there?

• 27:41Speaker 03

  What I did last night here in Austin. Same thing.

• 27:45Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it like old habits die hard?

• 27:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. Hey, man, how's it going? Yeah.

• 27:50Joe Rogan?

  It's like catch and release, you're like pretending?

• 27:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's still working your, yeah, working your gab, yeah.

• 27:54Joe Rogan?

  That's interesting. So you're always working your skill set, even though you're not on the job anymore?

• 27:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know, right. Uh, I love connecting with people. I don't care whether you're smart, stupid, big, you know, skinny, fat, any ethnicity, doesn't matter. And that's one thing I do miss about the job. I miss getting called out at two in the morning for the craziest of the crazies. And you show up to do an interview and I'm, and essentially I befriend you and you either confess or we find out you really weren't doing anything. I do remember one night, this wasn't undercover, but they called me, cause towards the end of my career, I was doing nothing but mainly domestic terrorism. And they called me, they go, we got one down here. He's a white supremacist. He's assaulted a cop, this, that and the other. Well, I get down there. It's like three, four in the morning now. I do my spiel. I'm not screaming at the guy, man, you need something to drink? Here, man, you look cold, here's a coat. So tell me about what happened.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  I'm not here for this other stuff. I'm just, and I start talking. Well, somewhere in there, I'm like, okay, this guy's not a white supremacist. He's a sovereign citizen. Um, man, he's just anti-government, pro sheriff, elected, but anti-government. Sovereign citizens, I really can't stand to deal with them. It's, it's just, it's like absurdity to the max.

• 29:03Joe Rogan?

  Explain sovereign citizens to people?

• 29:04Speaker 03

  They, you see it all over YouTube. They, they don't, like, they get pulled over and they, I don't need a driver's license. I'm in commerce, I'm in transit. If they touch you, well, that's rape. They think they've got a hundred and, I don't, I'm gonna forget it, but it's like a hundred and seventy-five, two hundred fifty thousand dollars being held by the government for each person. It's crazy. They'll start putting liens on people. People put on trainings. So when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see like this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit, but hell, I never got that training. Is this legit? You know, I guess I can't pull this guy over. Then you start diving in, you start getting the training, they go, these people are full of crap. And then you see the cops popping the window and dragging them out of the car. You're still going. But this guy was a sovereign citizen.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  He had a brother. And we're, we're talking and, and he's telling me this stuff and the constitution and the Declaration of Independence. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And I said, but, but how do you know that's what the forefathers meant when they signed that? And he said, cause I was there, son.

• 30:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  And that's when I went.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Oh, he's not just a sovereign citizen.

• 30:13Joe Rogan?

  He's a kook.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  He's crazy. Why did it take me this long to find out?

• 30:17Joe Rogan?

  He said I was there?

• 30:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was, it like this, he goes, because I didn't miss a beat. I go, how do you know? Because I was there, son. And I went, there? Oh, you've been reincarnated about four or five times.

• 30:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  And I'm like, and, and, and you got this life this time? You got the one you're living right now this time?

• 30:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're talking to me at four in the morning.

• 30:38Speaker 03

  You look like you've had a rough life. I mean, I would, you know, if I was gonna buy into, you know, reincarnation, I'd wanna come back as maybe like my mom's dog or something like that, you know? Eat, stay, yeah, something, just a great life. Sleep, eat and play. But, um, so back to the, uh, the outlaws thing. I go in and I'm just shooting the shit. I'm just working the bar. I'm telling jokes. Uh, you get a crowd of people around you and that's no, that's not trade crowd. I mean, that's just me, right? And, uh, by the way, uh, for the listeners who may not know, little intervention. If you buy all your friends, all their drinks and their food all the time, they're probably not your friends. You know what I mean?

• 31:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 03

  I got all kinds of friends. Those aren't your friends.

• 31:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  Stop paying, they won't come around anymore. But that's kinda what I was doing. And then now we get to the night to where the outlaws, uh, are leaving their clubhouse. And for the listeners that don't know, in the biker world, especially one percenter world, there's a mandatory meeting every week at a clubhouse and they refer to it as church. So they're leaving church. I get the surveillance team telling me, hey, man, we're leaving church. I'm like, cool. I'm at the bar, already the foxy lady, uh, in Brockton, Massachusetts and...

• 31:49Joe Rogan?

  That's a rough town.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Right? And, uh, marvelous Marvin Hackler.

• 31:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, sir.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  I'd go for a jog and I'd go.

• 31:54Joe Rogan?

  The Tramelli Brothers.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  I'd go, I'd go, home of Martha.

• 31:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm like, yeah. But, uh, um, they tell me they're coming. Now, the intelligence that they had provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, hey, man, can they wear their colors, their cuts, their leathers in the bar? And they said, no, they don't allow that. And I'm thinking in my mind, well, that makes my approach easier because I'm not a tattooed guy. Watching naked women, listening to heavy metal and drinking. Next to a guy who's watching naked women and heavy metal drinking. They had that part wrong. Cause about thirteen, fifteen outlaws come walking into the bar. Take the whole back bar, they're all wearing their colors. So that, does that change my approach? I, I think it does.

• 32:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 03

  Unless you want me to go up and as I say, when I'm teaching this, I go up and I go, what do you mean second? I go, hey, uh, you, you boys ride?

• 32:44Speaker 03

  Nothing? No? All right, fine, I'll just, I'm gonna go back on the other side of the bar. Please don't beat my ass. Um, so I just was being loud and boisterous. It's me, that's what I do. Uh, it doesn't always work for undercovers. Some people don't like it, but it's my personality.

• 33:01Joe Rogan?

  Are you allowed to get drunk?

• 33:03Speaker 03

  Uh, boy, that's a tricky question. Yes, I can drink. Um, but here's the thing. Uh, let's say that outlaw's case, that was two years. So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a Jack and Coke up, right? Um, I was, I'm anal, uh, even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight. And I wanted to be good. I wanted to always get better and be more well-rounded. So I would watch and even if I caught myself at five in the morning, six in the morning, slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, dead gummit, man. And then I'd listen and within five minutes I'd be back. Because you gotta remember, all that could be played in front of a jury. And if I'm on there slurring and saying a bunch of stupid stuff.

• 33:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  I mean, how does that affect my articulation?

• 33:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 33:48Speaker 03

  For what I was doing. Um, but was my alcohol tolerance very high?

• 33:52Joe Rogan?

  You know, you're a big dude. You probably put some away.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  I did. Kinda still do. I tell, I, I tell you what, uh, what put me on a three-month timeout was CPI.

• 34:03Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 34:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. Cause you go down there and you get the, uh.

• 34:06Joe Rogan?

  Let's explain it, we're talking about the Cellular Performance Institute that, uh, my friends, uh, run down in Tijuana.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Great, great facility. Uh, I will tell you the, my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, uh, I almost died. I had a hip replacement and it got sepsis, I got sepsis and I almost died.

• 34:25Joe Rogan?

  Oof.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  So fourteen days after my total hip replacement, quickest surgery I've ever had, about thirty minutes, chopped the femur off, drill it pop. They're walking you out, you're still very high on all your, they're like, if you can walk, you can go home. And I'm like, I can't walk. But apparently something happened. They got infected. So 14 days later, I had sepsis and they got it under control and they went back in and cleaned me all out. I had two hip surgeries in 14 days.

• 34:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  Fast. So now I'm going to Tijuana, knowing what I know about working the border. Even though I'm friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, and I'm like, I'm like, man, now I'm going by myself. Best hospital stay I've ever had.

• 35:05Joe Rogan?

  CVS is great.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  It's phenomenal.

• 35:07Joe Rogan?

  It's an amazing place.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Phenomenal. And what I, but what I stopped, cut back on my drinking is, I got down there, you can't drink the week before, especially if you're getting the IV stem cells, because they travel through your body and they grab stuff. So if you drink and it sees your liver working harder, it's going to go to your liver. So you're kind of wasting the shots. I knew I couldn't drink the week before. I got there and they go, yes, you can't drink for three more months. And I went, three months? And they're like, I said, they ain't nobody told me that shit. And I was like, and I immediately went, I need to cut back anyway. That's fine, you know? But yeah, tolerance was high for them.

• 35:42Joe Rogan?

  You have to be drinking with these folks when you're hanging out with them.

• 35:45Speaker 03

  You don't have to. But this will go back to an explanation of the undercover school. If you're gonna drink, we want you to drink in a controlled environment when you're tired, because we want you to see how you feel. We also want to see how you behave when you're extremely tired and you're plastered, right? So you have to know that. In other words, you don't want to find out in the middle of the clubhouse that you can't handle your shit.

• 36:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I, you can drink, and, but you're being recorded. So be wary about, wary about it.

• 36:24Joe Rogan?

  What about drug use?

• 36:25Speaker 03

  Is this what I'm getting? Is this tradecraft or not?

• 36:33Speaker 03

  Maybe this is easiest way to say it. If I believe my life is in danger and like literally I'm getting ready to die, I will snort the lacquer finish off of this damn table. And then I'll be like, is that, is that all you got? You want me to do some more?

• 36:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 36:50Speaker 03

  Cause I really don't feel like dying right now.

• 36:52Joe Rogan?

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• 37:35Joe Rogan?

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• 38:13Speaker 03

  And then I need to get to the team. I need to get out. I need to get to the case team and I need to get to an emergency room to make sure I'm not ODing, especially today with fentanyl and stuff. But that's, that's kind of the general rule.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  I would say it's probably not a good idea for you to do drugs. Just without answering it completely, let me give you this. You're going to trial. We've got a two-year case against you. And I'm up here articulating what I did. It's in my documents, it's in the recordings. And we have built this case.

• 38:49Speaker 03

  Usually with undercover cases, in my experience, the evidence is so overwhelming, the only thing the defense can you can claim is entrapment, which you should be able to shoot that down pretty quick if you've done your due diligence. Or they try to make you look like a piece of trash on the stand. So imagine if they're saying, well, he did dope with us. You need to be able to articulate, did you? Why did you? That's more movie stuff. It does happen on on levels, and I wish it didn't, but it happens on levels where people don't have training. Um, and that's that's sad because there have been plenty of people, let's just use biker gangs, from law enforcement, from local, small department, all the way up to feds that have infiltrated biker gangs that have patched and gotten their colors.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  But the cases went to crap. They lost themselves, they lost their marriage, they became addicted to drugs. So we shouldn't be, there's no case worth that. It's probably, that's, that's the best way to say it. There's no case worth you getting addicted to drugs or endangering yourself, just walk.

• 39:48Joe Rogan?

  So what is the dance of getting to the bar, becoming a regular, and then eventually getting to know these guys?

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Um, so that first night, uh, I'm being loud and boisterous, and they did say that there was one particular member who loved to be the center of attention, and he loved to be surrounded by big dudes. Take that for what you want. I don't know, I didn't dive too deep into that one, but uh, when you say hang out with big dudes.

• 40:15Joe Rogan?

  Are we wearing clothes?

• 40:18Speaker 03

  Why is there jar of Vaseline over there? What kind of party is this?

• 40:22Joe Rogan?

  What's with the cameras?

• 40:26Speaker 03

  Hey Scott, have a drink of this before you come in here and sign this NDA.

• 40:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what?

• 40:30Speaker 03

  What?

• 40:33Speaker 03

  So I, I start befriending him and I'm being loud, let me take it back, I'm being loud. This guy did like attention. He sees it and he's like, "Hey, hey, where the F are you from?" So I fire some stupid comedy thing back. We start going back and forth because he's already asked the bartenders, "Who the hell's that guy?" "Oh, that's Tex. He comes up here all the time from Texas." "I come up here all the time." That's human nature. It's like, you know, you caught a fish this big, by the 10th person you're telling, "Man, there was like 10 of them."

• 41:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  "I had to fight them off with my pinkies." But I get called over, I don't know who sent a drink to who first, but he calls me over and just starts shooting the shit with me. And from then, he pretty much invites me to one of their Northeast Regionals called Lobster Fest, held in Brockton at that clubhouse. And we were kinda on the way. There was a guy who was not patched and his name was Scott as well. I said the name of the book. It's all, it's all adjudicated. It's all in the court proceedings and stuff, but Scott Town was his name and he was a big dude. He was jacked and he came in, I remember going to the bathroom and again, I think I'm doing

• 41:48Speaker 03

  pretty good. Like I'm, I'm in great shape and I'm being me. I'm talking, shooting the shit, not hanging out too much. I walk back over, play a little, you know, you come chase me kinda thing. So I go to the bathroom and nobody's in there and for the listeners that don't know, men's bathrooms in bars, usually at the urinal, there's some kind of box plexiglass with some kinda ads like, "Hey, this person's coming next week," that stuff. So as I'm peeing, I'm looking at the reflection and I see the door swing open and I see this jacked dude Scott. It must've made an impression because in the report, I even say he's wearing like a gray shirt with black trim. He's completely sleeved out and I'm getting all this from, you know, sleeved out on the left arm, huge earrings. And I watch him and I

• 42:31Speaker 03

  see him kinda ducking and looking under stalls and hitting the doors to make sure nobody else is in the bathroom. I'm acting nonchalant, but then I see him walk up to me and for that split second, I thought, "I'm getting jacked. I'm gonna get jumped right here." But he ends up just asking me, "What brings you to Massachusetts?" I think what happened is they sent him in there to press me. Um, and this is a good lesson, don't bluff. If you bluff, uh, whatever you say today, you might be still in that case a year and a half, two years later. It needs to match what you said on day one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out. But I'd said where I'd been around, McAllen, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff.

• 43:15Speaker 03

  He'd been to all those places because he used to travel the country fighting dogs. So if I'd have been bluffing, I'd have been done right there. And then from there, we start building relationships. Now I'm trying to ingratiate and I'm getting invited to parties. Uh, they, uh, my story was that I was a site survey specialist and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas. And I would look at properties that they want to buy, whether it was residential or mercantile and, you know, pull stuff from the clerk of court and all that kind of stuff. But as it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes myself. And that's when we started getting into, uh, they were doing insurance fraud first with me.

• 43:57Speaker 03

  Uh, they would report vehicles stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen price. And the story was, since I was based out of McAllen, Texas, I'm just using the facts, uh, that we were moving vehicles to Mexico, uh, in trade for whatever, guns, most likely dope, but whatever. Um, and that's how we started. And then from there, now you start gaining more trust, you start hanging out more, you become tighter, you're building these relationships. Um, and then it's like, hey, we just carjacked somebody. We got this car, we took this dude at gunpoint. This thing's got LoJack or OnStar or whatever was around and then we'd had to get rid of it. Don't worry about it. I got it. Have a truck driver show up, we load all the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever, uh,

• 44:40Speaker 03

  on the truck and they thought they were going to Mexico, but they were just going to a warehouse somewhere in Massachusetts.

• 44:45Joe Rogan?

  So you never actually brought cars to Mexico?

• 44:49Speaker 03

  No.

• 44:50Joe Rogan?

  So when you would do that, we just get cash from the FBI to like represent?

• 44:55Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, they would, I would pay them, yeah, a stolen price, usually stolen's usually.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  Twenty to twenty-five percent of what it would normally cost, you know, because it's hot. Um, and that just started gaining trust. I mean, the, we, like I said, there was other undercovers that would help. We call those cameos. Um, if, if you're the primary undercover, that's you. That's your case. A secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together. That's going to be a secondary role. If you're coming in as a truck driver, you're just pulling in the parking lot, we're loading up stuff, that's a cameo. And I've done many cameos for other undercovers as well. You know, just rolling into town, do a deal, whatever.

• 45:36Joe Rogan?

  So no one's ever trying to go with you to Mexico to make sure that all this is happening?

• 45:40Speaker 03

  Not on that case, but if they did want to, we would have to work that out. We would have to have that kind of, because I, I took this from a buddy of mine who, who I helped certify as an undercover. And I just thought it was a great way to say it. It's, look, at the end of the day, we want that target going to bed thinking, that was a good day. You don't want them laying in bed going, man, there's something wasn't right about that guy. Something, something's not right. Because you want it to be as real as possible.

• 46:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 46:11Speaker 03

  So is it, was it a fact that the cartels at that point in time loved four by four V8s and Harley Davison's? Absolutely. Did they get stolen all the time on the border? Absolutely. So that's, that's factual stuff that's real. So now I'm a guy, they, they, they eventually learned and believed that I was a high ranking, high ranking member of an international theft ring. And that's what we were doing. And then through those, through those, then they start stealing vehicles, which I gotta be careful of. I can't say, hey, I want a, I want a brand new F350 quad cab, because then they can steal it. That's somewhat of entrapment. I just led them to go steal that car, right?

• 46:53Speaker 03

  But over the next year or so, we're getting more and more stuff. I buy dope from them.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  Like I said, carjackings, we learned of them, certain members extorting people, like the good old mafia days, you know, extorting businesses, home invasions. But again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, yeah, we robbed that house. Is that enough to charge somebody? Probably not. As an assistant United States attorney, gonna be like, yeah, that's enough. No, we're gonna have to dive in more and find out and vet it out and get that evidence.

• 47:26Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Stressful shit.

• 47:29Speaker 03

  Slightly.

• 47:29Joe Rogan?

  Getting stressed out just thinking about you doing all these things.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  Me too.

• 47:32Joe Rogan?

  So like, how, how long is this relationship while you're building a case? Like, how, how much time are you spending with these people?

• 47:40Speaker 03

  I was pro- for that case, I was probably up there every three weeks for a good week. But then it's constant contact when I'm not there.

• 47:47Joe Rogan?

  Text messages.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, NextTales were big with them at that point in time. So, yeah, chirps.

• 47:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the, the, the old days, the walkie talkie one.

• 47:54Speaker 03

  Radio, yeah.

• 47:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, those were funny. People forgot about them walkie talkies.

• 47:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, man. It was, you know, it was crazy about that because you could key up and talk to somebody in Japan and it'd be Chris or Krieger, but if you tried to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever.

• 48:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they were terrible phones.

• 48:08Speaker 03

  But that's what they used and that's what I got and I was mirroring them. But, uh, yes, you build those relationships and it depends. Each case is different. But I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scott Town. It was absolutely scary how similar we were. And how tight we were. Uh, now again, he didn't know I was Scott paying FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Callaway. And he knew, I mean, it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op that evening, an operation, they wouldn't put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, hey, is Scott Town gonna be there tonight? I'm like, yeah. And, and even the FBI cover teams and stuff would be like, good.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  Cause they knew that he cared enough about me. He'd take a bullet for me and protect me and vice versa, really. For, as me and Scott Callaway. And, I mean, we finished each other's sentences. We thought the same, other than the criminal stuff.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  And some faith belief systems. But, uh, yeah, that was my tightest. And the second one over the two years was probably a guy whose road name was Clothesline. And he was the enforcer for the Taunton chapter. And then after that, it probably would have been the president, which was Joe Dogs, and then it just trickles down from there.

• 49:22Joe Rogan?

  Do you have conflicted feelings when you develop like these relationships with these guys?

• 49:26Speaker 03

  I did. Um, you can put on as much training, you can get the training, you can be a part of it. I'm still human, you know, uh, now was I to a point to where I'm gonna go, I'm leaving the FBI and I'm gonna become a one percenter.

• 49:43Joe Rogan?

  Some people do though, right?

• 49:44Speaker 03

  I know some people do, but I wasn't there. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that.

• 49:47Joe Rogan?

  How often does that happen?

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Well, I don't, in the FBI, probably not a lot, but those cases are well known if something happens like that. Somebody goes rogue, like, uh, you know, your breach story and all these people selling secrets and getting people killed. Yeah. I, I wasn't there, nor would I be. I wouldn't be. I would like to think if I did have a one percenter club, nobody would ever infiltrate it though.

• 50:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, you probably understand how it works. But even then.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know.

• 50:14Joe Rogan?

  I mean, you're dealing with ragamuffin people.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:17Joe Rogan?

  How do you know? How do you know who's real?

• 50:18Speaker 03

  But those are like, again, those are my kinds of people. When we're riding around and we're, people are wrestling each other over tables. This is my favorite move, bang. I mean, at one point I'm driving down the road with Scott Town in a snowstorm. And I'm driving and I'm like this with my hand. He reaches over out of nowhere and breaks my pinky. Just pop and it's sucker's like a 90 degrees and I'm like, motherfucker. I pulled over, I slammed on the brake. Well, I mean, it's snow. But come to the stop and I go, what the F is your problem? And he's looking at me, he's going, I don't know what he was on, but he was in an evil space, right? And I'm looking at him and I'm going, look, if you wanna F and fight, we'll stand out in the damn snowstorm right now and we'll go at it. I know you think you can whip me, but maybe I can whip you.

• 51:04Speaker 03

  And I saw it wasn't going anywhere and he was getting more and more angry. And I just looked at him and I went, he's an animal right now. I'm gonna diffuse. I'm gonna de-escalate, which is really what you should be doing as an undercover. And I look over and I go, hey, hey, after I popped my finger in, I go, hey, sniff, smell, good boy, friend, friend. Like that. I'm trying to calm him down. Then he starts laughing, but that's the kind of stuff you get. But to me, it was no different than being in college, playing ball.

• 51:34Joe Rogan?

  Hanging out with psychos.

• 51:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. When you're there in the month of August and nobody is there, it's just 24 seven football.

• 51:40Joe Rogan?

  What was it like when you eventually brought that guy down?

• 51:43Speaker 03

  It was sad. It was sad because in that case, uh,

• 51:49Speaker 03

  There was a point where I, I had a young daughter and his youngest daughter was roughly the same age as my daughter. So I'm not at home with my kid, but I'm in his house bouncing his daughter on my lap. And, and you know, that when they're developing as a human being, they're at that stage, they're kind of making the same noises, moving the same way. It was, it was surreal. And then I remember thinking, man, I mean, I really like this guy, you know? He likes to drink. I like to drink. He likes to fight. I like to fight. He likes to ride. I like to ride. He likes to live. I like to live. Like, man, we finished each other's senses. Everything I already said. And then I look over at his refrigerator and, and I

• 52:30Speaker 03

  see all these stickers and magnets and stuff and my eyes just settled in on WWSD. And for the listeners that don't know, WWJD is very common in the Christ follower Christian community. What would Jesus do? Um, you see the bracelets all the time. And I look over and it said, WWSD. What would Satan do? And I looked and I went, oh yeah, we're not the same. We're not the, I'm back. I used to, we'd be in the clubhouse and everybody's yelling. They're like, you know, if, for the, again, people that don't know, whatever your biker club name is, you usually get these same sayings. So for the outlaws is outlaws forever, forever outlaws. Hell yeah, yeah, yeah. God forgives, outlaws don't. Yeah, yeah. It's better to be first in hell than second heaven. And I'm like, what?

• 53:15Speaker 03

  T.

• 53:19Joe Rogan?

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• 54:02Joe Rogan?

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• 54:44Joe Rogan?

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• 55:26Joe Rogan?

  That's promo code JRE, or go to lifelock.com/jre for 30% off. Terms apply.

• 55:35Joe Rogan?

  Hang on.

• 55:36Speaker 03

  I'm like, I'm not saying I'm a chalk walking Christian because I'm pretending to be a one percenter, you know, evil man, but what story have you ever heard of hell where it was good? I mean, are you helping me out here? So, yeah, it's a crazy bunch. But on that case, one of the biggest things that happened is, um, we'd been going for a year and a half and doing all these things. They've carjacked stuff, we're getting more and more evidence. There was a Hells Angel president murdered, uh, in Connecticut, Bridgeport, Connecticut.

• 56:07Joe Rogan?

  Terrible town.

• 56:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:09Joe Rogan?

  Terrible town.

• 56:09Speaker 03

  Is it?

• 56:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Bridgeport's dangerous.

• 56:11Speaker 03

  So, so Bridgeport, Connecticut and, um, the other Hells Angel that was shot didn't die. And he was able to give a description of a green truck with Florida plates. We knew at that time that Florida outlaws were up in that area because they were hanging out with our targets. Um, and even when I would call, I'd be like, hey, man, it's hot here right now. If you come out, you need to be strapped. I'm like, well, I don't want to fly with it. I don't want to put a, you know, bullseye on my back, back then. Um, I'm like, hey, if I show up, man, we'll give you a vest, we'll give you a gun, kind of thing. So we're doing all that. And now we get to the point to where we can, all the predications there, uh, they've done wiretaps. The case team has been doing a wiretap. They know that there's drug deals going on, they're doing surveillance.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  And now we're to the point to where, uh, we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well. Um, my story was that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because some of my peeps got popped because the heat was getting close. So I, I pulled chocks and I was out. And all I do now is move stolen equipment down because it's a lot less, uh, the way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me. And, and then they would ask, you know, well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you're working with? And I go, because I'm the gringo that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through.

• 57:40Speaker 03

  And that was really happening on the border and I knew that because I was on the border working it. Again, real things, you're just, you're just putting them into your story. But I'd now let them know it took a long time. I don't put words in their mouth. But I started laying breadcrumbs over weeks and months that I did used to be in the dope game. And of course, Joe Dogg's the president. I mean, the first time I met him and he said, "Where are you from?" I said, "McAllen, Texas, on the border." His next question was, "How much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?" And I went, "Well, if we were needing predication, I think he just gave it." But his business skills weren't that great because I'd say, "Look, man, about 13 grands, which you could get a kilo for then on the border." He said, "Man, so if I got 10 of them up here for 13?" I'm like, "No, that's not going

• 58:25Speaker 03

  to cost 13 up here." There's a reason the kilo costs 25 to 30 grand up here because somebody has to get it from the border to here. Right. Now, if you want to drive down the border and buy 10 for 13 apiece, and you risk taking them back over. But so we let it be known that I had some cartel. Of course, they knew I had cartel contacts and we started introducing those. Some cameo undercovers came in, unbelievable people. And we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection. There was going to be a drug shipment coming in and my crew was going to be delivering it to another crew and we needed protection. And we did it in Brockton and several outlaws hopped in on it.

• 59:09Speaker 03

  The issue was this, at least one of the big issues. Pretty much that case, I had a great time. Yes, it's violent and my mentality was changing. There is a podcast that's a, it's a series that's going to be coming out with the book. And they actually interviewed one of the task force officers who was over me on that case and the outlaws. And I remember him calling me, he's like, "Hey, what, say, what can I say?" I said, "Tell them the truth." I said, "I want to know, I want to know what you were thinking. I know what I was thinking." And it was really, really surreal to hear him talking about he could see my personality changing. He could see, and like the FBI office might be saying, "We want him to patch." And he was over here fighting going, "Hell no, we're getting everything we need now. If he patches, then they can order him to do shit."

• 59:53Speaker 03

  And it was just really cool to hear that. But essentially for the case. It was me, an FBI case agent, and two task force officers. Uh, we had Detective Joe Cummins from Brockton PD, Sergeant Higginbottom from the Massachusetts State Troopers, and then an agent with the FBI, and that was it. I mean, they would add some here and there, but for two years, that was it, it was us. So now we get to this point to where we're like, man, let's do this drug protection. And the Assistant United States Attorney was like, hey, if you're gonna be at the clubhouse, or do they talk about this as a clubhouse? We're like, yeah. And he goes, well, that'd be awesome if we could get that recorded, because it helps, right? To show what they're planning on doing. Um, so the night before the deal's supposed to happen, they don't know it, but we've got

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  forty kilos of real cocaine and a thousand pounds of weed, real. Um, so you can imagine SWAT teams are involved, because can, I mean, can you imagine if the FBI lost forty kilos of cocaine? And Brockton and Taunton's are all wide awake for the next week, you know? Or there's OD's, you know? Because that's a liability. Um, did you say you had forty kilos? There's only thirty-nine here. Hmm? I don't know. No, I'm just kidding. But, uh, so they say, hey, Joe Doggs calls me, it's night of church, he says, hey, I need you to come to the clubhouse. I'm like, alright, cool. And of course, I'm thinking, I'm Taipei, I'm Scott Payne, I got this, let's go do this, man, these are my boys, I've been doing this a year and a half.

• 1:01:21Speaker 03

  And I went into the clubhouse, and what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording devices were at, because that's tradecraft, um, but let's just say, I had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing, I had a completely audio recording device somewhere else on me, and I had a transmitter, batteries, so the team could listen in. Um, and I went into the clubhouse, like normal, but what you can't see, if you go back and you watch the video, is if I'm facing this way, and I'm shooting the shit with you, and this is the bar, and you're laughing at my jokes like always, when I would turn my head to look this way, it's still filming, and I didn't see it, because I turned my head, they go stone face.

• 1:02:04Speaker 03

  And I I missed it. I didn't see it. Um, I do know that when I got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I'm knocking on the door. I'm like, what the, you know, Joe Dog's props. Hey, hey, we're not ready yet. And I gave them, why the hell did you tell me to come? I was being smart. I'm like, what's the deal? Why would you say come if you're not ready? I didn't pick anything up. So I go in and for the listeners uh, that may not know, uh, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it several times. They wanted me to patch, but I I'm with the, what I said for the task force officer. I said the same thing. I'm like, look, if I'm a probate and they say, get your shit text, we're gonna go check this dude, I kinda gotta go. I mean, if I don't do it, I'm either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever.

• 1:02:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:02:49Speaker 03

  Um, but being a high ranking member of an international theft ring that they're making money off of, so a little different. I, we were getting everything we wanted. So I go in the clubhouse. I missed that. I also missed that in the back, uh, one of them, Chocolate Scott, it looks like he's dancing to the song that's playing, but he's warming up and I missed that. And then my second closest contact clothesline says, hey, Tex, you got a minute? And I said, yeah. And we walk, I'd been in that clubhouse, I don't know how many times, Joe, but there's one door I'd never been in. And that's the door we went in. And it was a very tight stairwell into, you can say a basement, but that's being very, uh, I'm stretching it because I could probably touch the ball, wall

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  on both sides and I couldn't stand up straight. So they bring me down in there. They've brandished their weapons. One of them walks in behind me. He's on the steps. So they got their pistols. And, uh, my friend says, hey, there's a lot of shit going on. It's my job to take care of my brothers. I need you to write down your full name, your address, your phone number, all kinds of stuff. Uh, and I need you to take off all your clothes. I need to check you for a wire.

• 1:03:57Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:03:58Speaker 03

  Here's the problem. Had I not been wired, embarrassing, yes. Naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement? Yeah, that would, that would have been bad, but it would have been no threat. But I was wired to the hilt. And so you think, man, do you fight? Do you try to get out? Well, there's already two or three there. I'm probably gonna do some Tommy Boy shit and knock myself out on the joist as soon as I start trying to fight. And then upstairs, there's what, ten more outlaws? And that door, what I was getting into earlier, I didn't say, if you're not a Patch member, you can't touch the door. That door has more than one deadbolt on it. They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those like shipyard metal bars across.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  So from a Breacher's standpoint, it's a fortified door. It might be easier to breach the wall next to it. So we're down there in the basement. And when I go to write my name down, I forgot my middle name. And that's because I was having an oh crap moment. I had an adrenaline dump. Same thing as cops in shootouts, military in shootouts, somebody in a car wreck, first time. Everything, when you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down. You get auditory exclusion. So everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater is going whoosh, whoosh. It's slow, like you're talking to me like this. Time dilation, your eyes are clicking. You look and everything's in frames. Everything's slowing down. Your hamstrings get really rubbery. You feel your heart beating.

• 1:05:24Speaker 03

  I mean, you feel everything pulsing. And what seems like ten, fifteen minutes is probably thirty seconds. And that happens. That's an adrenaline dump. So that was happening. And I forgot my middle name. And I'm going Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway. I'll start going through this damn rolodex in my head and I'm going, Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway. And I'm going Scott Joseph. I go, no, damn it. That was my middle name for another alias, you know? And I don't realize that I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence. I would have never known I said it, would have never agreed I said it had I not seen it in the recording. But I turn and I go, and what else do you need? And by the way, you've got a baseline of me now, my voice. It did not sound like this on that recording.

• 1:06:08Speaker 03

  My throat was tight, the octaves, I mean, it was very higher than normal. And I'm like not even enunciating that well. I'm like, and what else do you need? And they're like, what? I go, my name and what else? Well, now I hear them scream up and they go, what else do you need for that website? So now I know, oh, are they gonna Google me? Back then, there was who's a rat dot com, things like that. So I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence and then I remember my middle name was uh my initials were SAC because I'm an idiot and I thought it was funny because SAC is the head of an FBI division and I knew I was never gonna be one so so I made my initials SAC. So I remember my name's Scott Andrew Callaway and then I write that down. Well, now I take off all my clothes. I take off my my my outer clothing, all my shirts.

• 1:06:53Speaker 03

  I take my boots off and I I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. Um, so pretty much naked from ankle. I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up. And he starts searching me and I'm again, I'm having an oh shit moment and he's he's trying to talk to me and like we had known each other for a year and a half. So I'm not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is tell me I'm okay. Is this okay? Well, clothesline because we were tight hits me back with a face look that's like everything's all right. This is just procedure. However, he didn't know that I'm an undercover agent and I'm wired. So that adds a whole nother issue.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  So he searches me. I think we're done. Um, he even one point he even tells me, he says, uh, trust me, if somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash him in the fucking mouth. And I said, those are his words. And I I immediately said, well, I'm not happy. I'll tell you what I did do. I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor. And I've had people ask me, what does that mean? And I go, well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor and they're telling you to walk on it.

• 1:08:03Joe Rogan?

  They're gonna cut you up.

• 1:08:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, you guess this is to clean up the blood. I didn't see that. I saw a rope. I saw pistols and I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there in one piece. So he he finishes and he's like, he's he's saying something. He goes, he goes, wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to town, your town and starts doing all this shit with you? I said, yeah, if you came to me. I didn't come to you guys. Y'all called me over. Nobody has to do this shit. I'm like, what do we, you know? Nobody has to do anything, right? And I think we're done. So I pull my pants back up and I think we're done. And he grabs a piece of clothing in mine. And he starts kneading it and going through it.

• 1:08:47Speaker 03

  Now, this is 2005 to 2007 ish. So techni- technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is. But, uh, let's just say this. Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would have felt something. And he says as a joke, when he starts, he goes, hey, uh, I'm not gonna find anything in here I don't want to. Like some naked pictures of my old lady. And he laughs and I, his laugh is like, and my laugh is like, you know? And then I'm watching him go down this piece of clothing and he's doing this and he's kneading it. And, and I, you can hear, again, I don't know how I do it, but on the recording, you can hear me go.

• 1:09:33Speaker 03

  An audible sigh because I'm like watching it and I'm going, what the, what am I gonna do? So here's how it ends. He doesn't find it. Wow. Almost, I mean, like very, very close. Um, and by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up and now I've got another adrenaline dump. And now I've come in, I'm like, son of a, you know, it's peaks and valleys. And, uh, everybody that I've taught this to or spoke about it to always ask, they're like, man, what would you have said? And I'll tell you, I had two responses. Because I'm a jovial idiot, my first response, if he would have said, what is this? I would have probably said, I don't know, some naked pictures of the old lady to try to buy myself some time? Maybe make him quit searching?

• 1:10:17Speaker 03

  The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday. I would have said, the gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court. Or all hell's gonna break loose. Here's the issue. As I get a swig.

• 1:10:36Speaker 03

  That would have been a bluff on my part because as far as I knew, every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me. For whatever reasons, because somebody's gonna say it's tradecraft, but again, this is 2005 to 2008, but they could never really hear me in that clubhouse. And I make it out. Uh, I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dogs that night, but what happens is I am legitimately pissed off because now my adrenaline's coming back down and I'm, I'm taking it personal. I shouldn't. I'm undercover as an FBI agent. I'm not really Scott Callaway. I mean, I'm kinda.

• 1:11:14Joe Rogan?

  But you're so deep in the role.

• 1:11:15Speaker 03

  Well, and it's really me kinda. I mean, that's the whole thing. I never was far off of who I really am in life. A pedophile? Yeah. You're hiring me to kill somebody? No, I'm not gonna ingratiate with you. I'm a stone cold killer. But I'm hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever. Yeah, the jokes are kinda the same. So, so I'm pissed and I'm, at one point, I'm telling Joe Dogs, I'm like, you know what, man? F all you sons of... I said, y'all show up tomorrow? I said, I'm stripping all y'all in the damn parking lot. You know, I was just, boy, and they were nice. They let me vent my stuff. Well, that night, when I went to turn in my equipment, uh, at an undisclosed location, probably three, four, or five in the morning to the case team, um, what I found out was this.

• 1:11:57Speaker 03

  Uh, the shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom, everybody called him Higgy, uh, and Joe, the detectives. Uh, the detective. Uh, these guys are awesome, phenomenal law enforcement officers. Uh, although I think their love language is yelling. Maybe that's my southern thing mixing with the northeast thing, but, uh, uh, they told me, they said, Scott, we heard you in there. And I'm like, what? When I had that first interaction with Joe Dogs, they are very street smart, they're very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever. Something that happened in that first interaction made their spotty senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer, uh, say, something's not right.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  They had pulled close enough, they heard everything, they put on their vest, they suited up, and because they'd been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door.

• 1:12:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:12:56Speaker 03

  Just to smash that, you know? Uh, sometimes I'm teaching this, I'll joke about it and say, it probably would have killed me because I was in the basement, you know?

• 1:13:04Speaker 03

  Reverse, back up. You're so damn heavy. But at that moment, I was scared to death, right? So they tell me what happened was they pulled close enough, they heard everything. They're suiting up. They have radioed now, because it's kind of the beginning of the shift. They've radioed now back to Boston. Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and sirens all the way down to hauling ass to Taunton, Massachusetts. So I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. We went through the FBI Academy together. And that night, again, I'm still shell shocked. He says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you. And I looked at him and I said, you weren't.

• 1:13:50Speaker 03

  I said, because I was looking for any friendly face I could find in that damn hole. But so that night, we haven't talked about my family. I try not, well, I take it back. In the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended, you know, 911 hangups, stuff like that. But at that point in time, I'd bought my wife, everybody's pretty familiar now with the burner phone, but I'd bought my wife a phone that came back to nothing. So my undercover phone could call that phone, not violating the operational security. That night, Joe, when I called her, I'd always call her every night. And again, five, seven in the morning, didn't matter. And it might just be she wakes up and says hello, and I go, hey, I just wanted you to

• 1:14:34Speaker 03

  know I'm done, heading back to the hotel room. Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I'll call you. It might be that quick. That night when I called her, the first thing she said to me was, are you okay? She felt it. I said, yeah, why? And she said, I was driving with our daughters at such and such time in McAllen. And she said she got this overwhelming feeling and pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for me. And I matched it up. That's when I was in the basement.

• 1:15:03Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:15:05Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  Say what you will, but uh, damn.

• 1:15:08Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:15:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. Apparently my oh shit signal. Apparently I don't need Verizon or anything. It went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas, but it's just uh, I mean, that that's just one of the little, one of the things that happen and it just takes a toll on you over time.

• 1:15:26Joe Rogan?

  I can only imagine.

• 1:15:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I'll get you to the next day. We do the deal. Clothesline doesn't show up. Well, that pisses me off. Wait a minute. You're supposed to be my boy. And you took me into the damn basement and stripped me at gunpoint. But you can't come up, you, you don't show up the next day and help with this thing? Again, I'm taking it personal. I shouldn't. So everybody knew there was a beef. Let's just fast forward a month or two. I go back home, I come back and Big Scotty had even said, he goes, look, these guys are going to settle this like grown men face to face. It ain't gonna happen over the damn phone. So the next time I go back to Massachusetts. I'm at a cantina we used to go hang at and drink at in Bridgewater and uh.

• 1:16:10Joe Rogan?

  Another hard town.

• 1:16:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, so yeah, these are my people. This is where I get called.

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  We did not do any uh, meetings at the Long Wharf Marriott. You know what I mean?

• 1:16:22Speaker 03

  Ah, why would you like to meet me at Legal Seafoods tonight? My fellow criminals, you know?

• 1:16:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, so.

• 1:16:31Speaker 03

  So I'm at this cantina and Clothesline walks in. Now you gotta remember the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement. And he looked a little rough, like a little whipped, you know, like he'd been disheveled. And he says, hey, man, can I talk to you for a minute? And the first thing I said was no. And he says, why? I said, cause the last time you asked me that shit, I ended up naked in the basement. No. So he says, no, it's like that. So we went back in the kitchen. And we're talking and what we learned, or what I learned and the case team learned is when we upped the ante to do that drug deal, um, and again, a lot of those outlaws were pushing for it because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for? Cheaper product, higher quality. That's just more money for you, right?

• 1:17:15Speaker 03

  So he was really, especially Joe Dog, they wanted to get a pipeline. They wanted to get an introduction to the cartel so they could get quality dope. You know, and, and have a, have a very successful business. So I'm in there with him and I'm ready, I'm ready to go to blows if we have to. And he starts talking to me and he says, you know Scott, he said, um, what had happened? Well, I was gonna tell you is that the call went up to the top and the top to us meant Milwaukee Jack was the national president. And this, this makes a hard argument for when they say it's not an organization. You do your own stuff. We only DM each other. Nobody knows each other's business. Well, then how did it go to the top of the outlaws who said, has this guy ever really been checked?

• 1:18:00Speaker 03

  And they go back and say, well, we've done like six to eight jobs with him and we're not in bracelets, meaning handcuffs. And he said, I don't care. Check them. So now that's when I get stripped in the basement. I learned that and this is what clothesline tells me. And you gotta remember, my mindset is screw this guy. I'm ready to go to blows. I'm not gonna look like a bitch. And he says, man, um, I know I was born to be an outlaw. I'm either gonna die young or die in jail. He said, and these are my brothers. He said, but I really don't have a lot of friends. And he said, ones that I know would take a bullet for me and I'd take a bullet for them. And that's when I start looking at his face and I'm going, oh shit, don't you say it, man.

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  Don't you say it. And he says, and you're one of those people. So now I'm like, uh, and he says, the reason he didn't show up is because he felt so bad for what he had to do to me in the basement that night. He got so obliterated that night, he was passed out through the whole drug deal the next day. So that night when I called my wife,

• 1:19:08Speaker 03

  she says hello and my first words are, or she's like, how's it going? How did it go? My first words are, I am a dick. I go, I am such a dick. This guy loves me. He cares about me. Now, that's the real side. That's the human side. Now there might be, you know, we, we don't train that way. We tell you, look, that's not you, but I'm still human. I'm out there, I'm out there.

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  I'm surprised we hadn't said this yet. A lot of times if I'm speaking or teaching or whatever, I'll put up there. What does undercover mean to you? So I'll ask you, what do you think undercover is?

• 1:19:41Joe Rogan?

  You're pretending.

• 1:19:42Speaker 03

  Okay, you're pretending.

• 1:19:43Joe Rogan?

  You infiltrate an organization, pretend to be one of them.

• 1:19:47Speaker 03

  I get that a lot.

• 1:19:51Joe Rogan?

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• 1:20:35Joe Rogan?

  Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact: research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild, and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know.

• 1:21:18Joe Rogan?

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• 1:22:02Joe Rogan?

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• 1:22:11Speaker 03

  I get lying. We hear acting. You're a character.

• 1:22:17Speaker 03

  Here is the definition of undercover work. You are building relationships that you're gonna betray. And that sucks. If you look at it that way.

• 1:22:26Joe Rogan?

  Especially if you genuinely have something in common with these guys.

• 1:22:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:22:30Joe Rogan?

  And you actually like their company.

• 1:22:31Speaker 03

  Now, don't get me wrong, if you haven't done anything illegal, well then, no, I'm really not, I mean, I guess I'm still betraying you because you thought I was somebody else. But we're not arresting you. I've done undercovers like that, those happen all the time. You're in there for five months and you're like, there's nothing federal here. I mean, they're just, they're, they're within their constitutional rights. And you just bail. But, uh, you, you have to, you, you are basically building and betraying relationships, especially if you're gathering evidence of criminal activity. And you need to know how you're gonna deal with that. Rationalize that in your mind, so it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche. And that's, that's tough. You know, uh, I'll fast forward you a little bit. I, I, I crashed on that case for the three-year period.

• 1:23:15Speaker 03

  Um, I'd been going non-stop. And I'm not saying I'm tough. Uh, I met my threshold. I think your threshold changes every day, just like your comfort zone. Some days I take off jogging at 54 years old. Sometimes I take off running and I go, it's gonna be a damn good day. I feel light, fluffy, floating on the, floating on the clouds. Some days I take off running and I go, how long have I been running? Two minutes. Damn. It's gonna be a long day. You know, so your comfort zone changes, I think your threshold changes, but,

• 1:23:46Speaker 03

  I go into great detail in the book, but, uh, for three years, I had been doing too much. Well, I say doing too much, but even when I moved to Tennessee, I did too much again. I just learned how to balance it better. I'm a workaholic, I love working, I love doing it all. SWAT callouts, running tactical schools here, case agent first, building cases, putting bad people in jail undercover.

• 1:24:15Speaker 03

  But I had stopped taking days off because I didn't want to give management a reason to tell me I couldn't go do an undercover. I'd just work through the weekend or be undercover through the weekend, come back, type up all my stuff, then run my cases, teaching all the tactics in firearms for McAllen and Brownsville agents, resident agents, which is just satellite offices out of San Antonio, on SWAT, running firearms for them, stuff like that. And I just stopped taking care of myself. So we get to a point to where, like I said, in great detail in the book, but just picture this, I already gave you a little bit of a blurb on the undercover school, right? Two weeks, no days off. Let's just say I'm there for 10 days. Well, once we put you to bed, we're probably gonna hang

• 1:24:59Speaker 03

  out and drink a little bit because you're my peer. And it's also therapy. And I have it, it's good to know that you're not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the same thing you are. And there's a lot of bonding that goes on there. But that means for 10 days, I'm not getting a whole lot of sleep. And I've probably got too much alcohol in my system, if we're being transparent. But then I leave straight from that undercover school, and I go right into an undercover. And let's just say I land in Sturgis, which I did, and the Hells Angels shoot five outlaws at point blank range, my first day there. Like, I hadn't even been in town like an hour. Now, there's two old ladies, two patch members and a probate, but they're all shot. They confirmed it was the Hells Angels. We're talking paralyzed from the waist down for life. We're talking

• 1:25:41Speaker 03

  shot, crushed clavicles, I mean, not just like a zinger. And now you're back doing that for days on end. And when I would get home, I would stop taking care of myself. I got to the point to where I was a walking zombie. I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. I was taking hydroxy cuts like crazy. I was making the strongest coffee I could possibly make. And I'd drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep. So what I learned through the book process, even though I'd learned a lot already, I, I found out from my wife, I was a ghost, man. I'd come home from SWAT, work, undercover, whatever. I'd be on the couch and my daughters would be on my lap. I'd help put them to bed,

• 1:26:25Speaker 03

  but my wife couldn't even ask me a simple question about the bills. You know, hey, there's this bill. Do whatever you got. I can't think. I just need to. And she wanted to do everything she could to support me and just let me veg and not put any, not put anything on my plate. So we get to the end of the outlaw case and I'm starting to crash. Didn't know it. If you are a certified undercover and you were active in the FBI, you mandatorily have to be psychologically assessed twice a year. That whole thing is called safeguard. I'm not outing anything. It's out there. It's on the internet. But the safeguard process

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  was created by Joe Pistone down in Nebraska. It was created by Joe and a, and a former agent who was, his background was a clinical psychologist, Steve Ban. And they came up with this because Joe, you gotta remember when Joe was undercover, there was no attorney general guidelines. There was, there probably wasn't even an operational procedure manual for undercovers. It was like, here's money, here's your recorders, go make a case. He was one of the first 25 undercovers in the FBI in 1972. That happened right after Hoover left. Hoover did not believe in the undercover technique, but soon as he was out, they started working undercover. But the safeguard process goes like you take a bunch of psychological tests and then you're gonna sit down, you're gonna take a break. It's gonna put a bunch

• 1:27:49Speaker 03

  of numbers into some charts. You're gonna sit down with a clinical psychologist. They may be an agent for the FBI or they may be contracted in. They're gonna go over all that stuff with you. They're gonna dive deep into your psyche, try to. And then after that, you're gonna sit down with somebody like a Pistone or an experienced undercover because you know the old saying, you can't bullshit a bullshitter. Well, we use undercover, you see, as a verb. You can't you see, you see. So I remember going to take one of the tests as an open ended sentence. You have to fill in the blanks. So I'm on my way to Daytona at a world run with the outlaws, uh, still rolling heavy in the case. And I, I stopped off at an undisclosed location to do the assessment.

• 1:28:30Speaker 03

  And I, I remember like the opening sentence might be, men are, and you gotta finish it. I'd always say, men, women are, I'd put women. They'd be like, what do you mean? I go, you know what I mean. That's, I'm not opening that can of worms. No, we're different. How's that? Um, but there was one that said, the last time I relaxed, I, and I couldn't think anything.

• 1:28:53Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:28:54Speaker 03

  Nothing. And that's not me BSing. I'm like sitting there at the table going.

• 1:28:59Speaker 03

  Well, I work out all the time. I'm like, but that's not relaxing. It's not like I'm namaste and listen to Yanni and shit. I'm like, I'm trying to throw forty fives across the gym, you know? Um, but I'm like, mm. So I just made up a story. Even, even at that moment, I thought, man, that's really screwed up.

• 1:29:15Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:29:15Speaker 03

  But I was like, yeah, eh, ain't a big deal. And, uh, again, way more detail in the book, but the thing that, the thing that happened to me was, uh, I ended up out, out partying with outlaws and Mongos all night. Um, we, uh, I wake up the next morning. I mean, you can hear and feel the whiskey and eggs squishing in your belly. You know that, you know? And I'm like, I'm, I'm just feel disgusted. I'm gonna start working out. So I'm in the hotel room doing, uh, before P90 came out, but kind of that thing. Burpees, mountain climbers, pushups, air squats, situps, all this stuff. And I came up, and by the way, this is after I hit the inhaler, took a decongestant, antihistamine,

• 1:29:57Speaker 03

  three hydroxy cuts, two cups of coffee. I don't know if there was anything else in there. I later learned that that was basically a cocktail for an anxiety attack. I was like, who knew?

• 1:30:09Speaker 03

  Ah, doesn't make a lot of sense, but I had, I had an anxiety attack. I was trying to work out. I came up for air, hyperventilated, forgot all about combat breathing, forgot about paper bags. And, uh, but did I stop? Did I say, man, that's really screwed up? No, I took a nap, got up, started drinking Jack Daniels and went back. But when I flew home. Uh, I slept wheels up to wheels down till I hit Houston. And then I slept wheels up to wheels down till I got to McAllen. And I think probably the first two days, I might have slept close to 20 hours a day. Um, but for the whole week, for five, from like Sunday to Friday, I slept an average of 16 plus hours a day.

• 1:30:50Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:30:51Speaker 03

  And I wasn't, I wasn't depressed, I wasn't sick, I know what they both feel like, I was that damn tired. Um, so by Friday morning, I take a phone call from a former good buddy of mine. Um, he is probably one of the best undercovers I've ever seen. Uh, but he was calling me about a possible another biker case. And his first question was, how you doing, country? And I'm like, not too good. And then he let me talk for an hour and convinced myself I needed to call Safeguard. So I called him, they came in and did an onsite assessment. They, uh, diagnosed me as over assigned and they said, you can continue the case on the phone until they take it down.

• 1:31:32Speaker 03

  And I stayed on the phone, I made a story up because I'd gotten married technically. And I told them I was getting a divorce, but I had to relocate my, my wife and my kids to El Paso where her family was at. Once that's done, I'm pulling chocks, I'm coming to Massachusetts. We had already created, it was in the creation, uh, our own biker club that it was approved by the top of the outlaws to be the number one support club in the Northeast. And we were going to name it the Righteous Few, Scott Town was going to be the president, I was going to be an officer in it, uh, sergeant in arms. And, uh, and, and I never went back up there because they told me I couldn't. When you get put on timeout, it's like you, no travel, uh, you can be a case agent. Uh, we're going to suggest to your division, no travel, uh, definitely no undercover work.

• 1:32:16Speaker 03

  Um, there was some confusion there because one of the arguments is you need to ingrate, you need to, you need to get back in to be in a case agent and remember what you're supposed to be doing. And I'm like, I never stopped being a case, I'm running all these damn cases while all this is going on. But, uh, I, I took a timeout. Well, I've made some phone calls. There was one guy named Tim Sylvia, not the fighter, uh, who is a buddy now, by the way. Um, Ti- this guy's name was Tim Sylvia. He, uh, had been in prison most of his life. Uh, but before I stopped going up there, he was introduced to me. He knew about the cocaine. He knew about what I did. He calls me and says, man,

• 1:32:56Speaker 03

  uh, I got some stolen vehicles for you. Uh, I'm in the magic powder business. If you can get me those bricks, or whatever he called them, code on the phone, uh, for 18 apiece, I can buy 10 of them right now. Um, so I called the case team and said, look, he's reaching out to me. I can't come back up there. Uh, so we rigged it up to where, uh, the guys that were posing as my truck drivers went and they were going to pick up these stolen vehicles. They had like a seven series BMW worth a hundred plus grand at the time and some other vehicles. While they were with them. So here I am on timeout in my garage sweating my tail off in McAllen and I've got my two phones. I'm talking to the undercovers. I'm talking to Tim Sylvia. I'm telling them where to go. They're being

• 1:33:41Speaker 03

  covered. They go, they meet. While they're meeting Tim, uh, the truck driver, supposed playing my truck driver, calls me. You can hear me clearly on the recording. I'm talking on it and, uh, I tell him how much to pay Tim for the stolen vehicles. And Tim was like, hey, I'm going to report the BMW stole stolen on Friday. And I said, can you make it Saturday? Give me 24 hours more to get this thing into Mexico. And they did that. And then when they went to load the vehicles, he hit them for an 18, a key for 10 keys. And they said, yes. And they ended the case with them doing a ruse delivery of that dope. And so you ask about the relationships. So this is how it ends. I'm in Nevada helping

• 1:34:26Speaker 03

  put on undercover school. Uh, that was one thing that Safeguard said I could go to, uh, because they also knew they could do many assessments, watch me, put me around other undercovers, make sure I'm not losing my shit. And, uh, I can't remember the time difference, uh, to Massachusetts, but I've already been drawing up diagrams of all these houses and clubhouses I've been in and I'm, you know, sending those to all these SWAT teams all over the Northeast that are going to be hitting all these places. And I got back to my hotel room and I always kept my undercover, well, the case wasn't ever technically yet anyway, but I always kept my undercover phones on for at least a month after a case went down. In case you got threatened or anything like that. Well, I get back to my room and my next tail's chirping.

• 1:35:10Speaker 03

  And I check and it's Scott Town. He's left me a message. So I chirp him up. And he's all raspy voice because he's been just woken up and he's like, hey, man, I just want you to know. Uh, your, your truck driver, Tony and, and the other guy, they were beating Big Timmy and I don't know what happened, but they all, I think they all got locked up. Well, he doesn't know that I'm undercover. He's telling me that that was the takedown day. So he's calling me and I'm like, oh, I said, you know what, brother? I appreciate that. I said, I don't. I don't always control everything they do. Sometimes they do side jobs on their own. I said, I, they were not up there for me, but I'll try to find out what's going on. He said, let me tell you what I'm gonna do. He said, I'm gonna get up, get cleaned up. I'm gonna find out what the hell's going on. I'm gonna call you back. And I said, okay. His last words to me were,

• 1:35:54Speaker 03

  I'm gonna get chugged up. His last words to me were, I love you, brother. And I chirped back and I said, I love you too. And he didn't, he didn't know that a SWAT team was gonna be hitting him in about 40 minutes.

• 1:36:04Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:36:05Speaker 03

  That's the last time I talked to him. He'll probably hear this. I, I got a 50/50 shot. If he walks up, I'll hug him. He probably wants to beat the shit out of me, but.

• 1:36:14Joe Rogan?

  Jesus. Man, is he out?

• 1:36:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's out now.

• 1:36:19Joe Rogan?

  How much time did he do?

• 1:36:20Speaker 03

  I think he did like eight, eight or 10, somewhere in there.

• 1:36:25Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:08Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:53Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:36Joe Rogan?

  That's better H E L P dot com.

• 1:38:39Speaker 03

  Yes and no. It really comes with the job. However, somebody pointed out the difference to me the other day. I'm like, look, man, as a cop or as an agent, you're locking people up and they're getting out.

• 1:38:54Speaker 03

  You know, if you get threatened in Greenville County, if you're working for Greenville County Sheriff's Office, let's say we're here, was it Travis County? If you get a threat, a legit threat in Travis County, do you think they got the money in the budget? Or they would even spend money in their budget to move you to another town? No. But in the FBI, we have that. You hit the threat system, they move you somewhere, change a bunch of stuff. So in law enforcement, there's always been, you can lock people up, you go to the grocery store, you're with your wife and kids and you see them. Everybody handles it their own way. For me, my best defense is a good offense. I'll just walk right up to you. Hey, man. Holy shit, how are you doing? I cannot believe, when did you get out? Are you okay? Hey, are you on the straight and narrow now? You know, because I'm gonna tell you, transparent.

• 1:39:40Speaker 03

  There's few things I love more than a success story. Sadly, they're very rare in my 28-year career. But to see somebody who broke the law, got out, turned themselves around and are doing great, I love it.

• 1:39:54Joe Rogan?

  You do see some of those.

• 1:39:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I'll help them. I'm helping one right now. I told them, I said, look, if you're doing the right thing. They're like, well, I got a felon on my record. I'm like, well, who better to be a reference for you on your application than the guy who gave you the felon? If you're doing the right thing, I'll talk for you.

• 1:40:10Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:40:10Speaker 03

  We all mess up. I mean, shit, you know?

• 1:40:13Joe Rogan?

  But that's gotta be so complicated because you're the guy who got him arrested.

• 1:40:18Speaker 03

  It is. And I have had threats that were legit. And I've had them at the sheriff's office where I was like, what do we do? And my lieutenant is like, we're gonna get some cops and we're gonna knock on that dude's door. Okay. And I've also been in the FBI where you could have gotten moved and I decided, no, I'm not. Once that case gets taken down, I'm overt. Like, a lot of people may not know it, I'm not trying to insult intelligence, but when you're arrested, I may be arrested with you, I may not be. There's all kinds of ways we can do a takedown. But eventually, you're gonna be sitting with your defense attorney and you're gonna get discovery. And discovery is supposed to be everything. Now, there have been FBI people who did not turn over everything and it was very wrong and we are still paying the price for it. But discovery is supposed to be everything. And at that point, you're gonna hear me on a preamble.

• 1:41:03Speaker 03

  You're gonna hear me go, let's see, what's today? You're gonna hear me go, uh, this is UCE undercover employee, this is UCE 12 whatever. Uh, it's Wednesday, March 26th, Central Time, 2:45 PM, about to walk in to meet Joe. And they're gonna hear that and they're gonna know that I'm the undercover. They may not know my last name's Payne, but they're gonna know. Now, what somebody pointed out to me was, you know, as a cop, though, you're just doing your job and you're arresting them. As an undercover, you've lied to them. And I went, hmm. Probably should have thought about that before I did the book, huh?

• 1:41:36Speaker 03

  Damn. Uh, but I, I try not to. I don't, I don't wanna live my life in fear. I'm a optimist, I'm a glass is always half-full guy.

• 1:41:47Joe Rogan?

  God, that's hard to believe, given your circumstances.

• 1:41:50Speaker 03

  I don't know how, for me personally, I don't know how to survive otherwise. Cause if I was doom and gloom and the glass is always half-empty. Maybe this is a good time to interject this. First responders, military. Do you know what we're number, I'm talking fire, medic, cop, uh, military. You know what we're number one in?

• 1:42:09Joe Rogan?

  Suicide.

• 1:42:09Speaker 03

  Suicide. You know what else we're number one in? Divorce. Alcoholism, throw in pills or whatever you want there. We're also number one in dying within five years after retiring.

• 1:42:21Speaker 03

  Who signs up for that?

• 1:42:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:42:23Speaker 03

  You know, hell, yeah. First in hell, second in heaven. No.

• 1:42:30Speaker 03

  No. I'll pass. But yeah, so that hurt. I mean, it's very, it's surreal. Um, and yeah, great job, but yeah, I mean, I'm human. And, and, uh, and I did really bond with that guy. And just like, I felt like a piece of trash when Clothesline told me that I was really, he considered me really his friend.

• 1:42:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:42:49Speaker 03

  You know?

• 1:42:50Joe Rogan?

  What's he doing now?

• 1:42:51Speaker 03

  I don't know if he's out or not. He had, he was supposed to get, I think he got 12 and a half. But I didn't keep up with it. I mean, sometimes people go to jail, they pick up some more charges cause they did something stupid in jail. But I will tell you, talking on that trend, uh, talking on that, uh, success story thing. Most of my career. Uh, with the exception of a pedophile. Um, almost everybody I've arrested, I'll sit down with them and I'll say, listen, I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm not saying I disagree what you did. What I'm saying is, is you're an adult. You made a choice to break the law and you got caught. So let's just start right here. This is whatever, this is all I got. This is on the table. Let's don't do that dating game BS where you lie to me for two months and I lie to you for two months. And then when we're finished out,

• 1:43:36Speaker 03

  we figure out we really do kinda like each other. Now I can tell you the truth. This is what I got. And it's just, it's not dehumanizing and they're still people. And I love connecting with people, like I said.

• 1:43:48Joe Rogan?

  Wow. That's a great attitude. Did you ever think like while you're talking to people like Scott Town, like, man, if my life had been different, I had gone down the wrong roads, grew up in a different neighborhood. You would be one of them.

• 1:44:00Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:44:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:01Speaker 03

  Absolutely. That's why we had so much in common.

• 1:44:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's part of the problem with life.

• 1:44:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:44:06Joe Rogan?

  Everybody wants to pretend that that could never be me.

• 1:44:08Speaker 03

  No, absolutely. It could have easily been me. And I'm like, I, I looked at it and I'm like, it's that proverbial fork in the road. I went that way, but I could have easily went that way.

• 1:44:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:18Speaker 03

  That's why I got along with them so much. You know? Like, yeah, other than like pedophile stuff.

• 1:44:24Joe Rogan?

  So what pedophile stuff did you have to do?

• 1:44:26Speaker 03

  Uh, actually, one of the quickest undercovers I ever did was the most satisfying. And I actually did this one, I think, before the Outlaws. Uh, it was in San Antonio. Um, they, uh, there was a guy that got picked up for molesting a kid. And I didn't know the whole backstory, but in the San Antonio vision, the agents and stuff knew me or the SWAT people, they knew I'm the undercover guy. And, uh, they called me up because while he was in Bear County, uh, in San Antonio, he approached, um, somebody in jail, solicited them to kill the kid or to find somebody that could kill the kid. A lot of these murder for hire plans are stupid, but that's actually wasn't too bad of a plan. Like if the kids.

• 1:45:08Speaker 03

  These cases are tough. They suck. They are atrocious. They are, I mean, it's a waste of oxygen, in my personal opinion. But it's usually a kid from a broken home. It's after the fact. It's an adult versus a kid. But he knew he wasn't going to do well in prison. So he approached somebody in prison, who then, as most people who are serving time do, they are trying to get credit to get out. And that person called his attorney, and that attorney called the FBI, and they worked it out to where he intro'd me. So I drive up to Bear County. I sign in, because he put me on the list. I go in, and I'm in,

• 1:45:50Speaker 03

  I'm in the phone bank. It's all stainless steel. You can't hear nothing but baby mamas, and everybody's screaming and cussing and pissed off. And here I am, trying to get this recording through this glass. And I'm talking to the guy, and I said, you know who I am? He's like, yeah. I said, well, I hope you do, because you put me on your list to come see you. You know what I do? And he's like, yes. I was like, slow rolling. I didn't know, I didn't want to scare him off. So I was like, you know, I'm in the extermination business. And he's like, yeah. I said, I kill pests for a living. He said, yep, that's exactly what I wanted. And I had a picture of the kid, of course, we're working with a family on this, but I had a picture of the kid just walking, like a surveillance photo. And I put it up on the window, and I said, is this the pest that

• 1:46:32Speaker 03

  you want taken care of? Something to that effect. And clearly on the recording, thank you, Lord, it picked it up. He said, that's him. Because you're not going to call a bug him, right? So what I found out is, I met him twice, just a two-meet thing. But what I found out from the solicitor's office in Bear County, it was mostly women working it, because it was the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit.

• 1:47:01Speaker 03

  And Joe, when I went walking in there and they're like, this is Scott. I mean, they all stood. It's like some TV show. They stood up and they started clapping. I'm like, I don't understand. And they said me chest beating. That's not what I'm trying, but it's like, what is going on? And they're like, thank you so much. You're so. And I'm like, I appreciate it, but I'm doing my job. What they told me is that guy had walked on four molestation cases before.

• 1:47:22Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 1:47:23Speaker 03

  And he also walked on some possession of, uh, uh, somehow he got out of possession of child pornography stuff. And, uh, but when he found out, when they approached him and said, I was an undercover and that they got him, he pled guilty to hiring me to kill the kid and pled guilty to the molestation of the kid. Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first time, he threw me off guard. Cause he starts, he, he was like, yeah, yeah. And I go, all right. Well, what do you got this side and the other? We're talking, and he goes, hey, I'd like you to kill the rest of his family too. They're in Wisconsin. And I'm, I actually giggled a little bit because it threw me off. I went, well, I, I'm not above traveling, but let's deal with one pass at a time. I'm like, you agree. I'm thinking in my head, damn, go on, man. You know, but he knew as most pedophiles do, you're not going to do well in prison.

• 1:48:09Joe Rogan?

  So his idea was kill the kid, kill the family, and then there's no evidence like he didn't.

• 1:48:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. He just gets to walk because there, there's no witness to show up to trial.

• 1:48:17Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:48:18Speaker 03

  Right? Yeah. And, and then being around that stuff, like I've had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent. They come in, they assign you as the training agent and they might be working that stuff. And I will tell you for me personally, um,

• 1:48:35Speaker 03

  that's tough to work for me. This is before I even had girl, before I even had kids. I remember seeing like, like five images. We, we hit a guy. He was actually a professor at University of Texas, Pan Am, and he was so vigilant. I mean, he had like, he had all the, the, the child porn videos broken down by ethnicity, age, sex.

• 1:48:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:48:58Speaker 03

  So I mean, you could say, I want Asian male 11 and he would have, I mean,

• 1:49:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh my God.

• 1:49:03Speaker 03

  And it was just sick. Now, did he come from a messed up thing? Yeah. Turns out his mother had molested him and his brother would tie him in the basement. Tie them to each other and make them have sex with each other.

• 1:49:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh my God.

• 1:49:13Speaker 03

  But it's horrific, but break the chain, man. Break the chain. So yeah, I saw, I saw like five photos and I was, I was messed up for probably a week or two.

• 1:49:23Joe Rogan?

  A professor.

• 1:49:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, my wife would try to, she'd try to touch me, not even just to be in, I mean, just to touch and I'd be like, uh-uh, no. I'm like, I can't, man. I gotta get this shit out of my head. Now, later on in undercovers, I could be the guy to drive and pick you up. I could show you pictures. Is this what you want, kind of thing? But to like, sit there and look through that stuff, my brain's not cut out for that. But there are those who are, and in the FBI, they, if you're looking at that, you have to be psychologically assessed as well, as you should.

• 1:49:53Joe Rogan?

  I could only imagine. How are these guys getting these videos? Are they making them?

• 1:49:58Speaker 03

  Joe, it is.

• 1:49:59Joe Rogan?

  There's like, see, that's the thing, right?

• 1:50:01Speaker 03

  It is so huge. It is so freaking huge.

• 1:50:04Joe Rogan?

  That's the scary thing, because most people aren't aware of it, and this is one of the big conspiracy theories, that there's these pedophile rings out there, but they're real.

• 1:50:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, human trafficking. Now, I can sway on some of the human trafficking stuff, because I've seen human trafficking from the border all the way to the hotel room.

• 1:50:22Speaker 03

  If it's, it's rarely a hooker ever on free will, or an escort of on free will, but if they're out there doing, I don't know. It gets a little muddy on some of the trafficking stuff for me personally, but it's still trafficking. They got brought in when they were underage. Now they're a product of what they've been forced to do, you know? It's, it's very sad, but as far as the child porn stuff goes, it's insane. I've worked with some, they call them ICACs, Crimes Against Children.

• 1:50:50Speaker 03

  And there's so much out there, but

• 1:50:54Speaker 03

  there was so much at one, this is just me in Tennessee. I'm with them. They have so many hits on whatever dark web thing it is. Might be Discord. I'm trying to think of what it used to be. But there's all kinds of stuff like that, that they'll go to these, what they believe, or what are encrypted apps that are based overseas, so they don't think that the FBI or feds here, the alphabet boys and girls, can do subpoenas and get that stuff. That's why they use those. Now, does that mean that everybody on Discord's bad? Absolutely not. Telegram, no. But do people go there to do bad things? Yep.

• 1:51:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Speaker 03

  And it's just like you could go, I remember them showing me stuff as the undercover coordinator. I'm over there and I'm looking at stuff and they're showing me what all the hits they've got right now. Just people hitting and through the databases, you could do knock and talks every fricking day, all day long. Hey, man, how you doing? Hey, uh, not if we look at your computer, you might not get in there, but yeah, it's a, it's a mess. A mess.

• 1:51:55Joe Rogan?

  And so there's a whole ring of people all across the country.

• 1:51:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, or just mom and pops farming out their kids.

• 1:52:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:52:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, uh, sex across state lines.

• 1:52:06Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:52:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, not good at all.

• 1:52:11Speaker 03

  There's just. Like, again, I mentioned McCallum several times, this isn't undercover stuff, but case agent stuff. I mean, there's, I might, might look at doing a book on case agent stuff. I was down there working the cartel with me and my, and the people I worked with. That was back when Ozzy R. Cardenas ran the Gulf cartel. So it was violent, violent as you know what, but there was some kind of SOP, there was like a procedure. Um, but I mean, when I try to tell people, I'm like, look, I don't care whether you're left or right. I, I meet all kinds of people. If you're extreme left, I'm probably gonna tell you, you're an idiot. If you're extreme right, I know you're an idiot because I've been with them.

• 1:52:51Speaker 03

  I'm like, I just want to bring it, which was so funny is you start here and you go far left and they're like, I want it. I'm a socialist, I'm a socialist, I want everything for free, I want it. And you start here on the far right and they're like, I want Hitler, I want Hitler, but that's socialism. You get here, it's the same shit, they just want the stuff for free. I want all whites, well, that'll fix everything. You know?

• 1:53:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:10Speaker 03

  Uh, it's just, it's insane, but down on the border, you tell people, you're like, man, they just, I'm not saying that. I'm not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico and stuff, but it, a lot of it runs on corruption. A lot of it runs on money and they do not value life like we do. I mean, man, they chop heads off. It's Al Qaeda stuff, I mean, they're, they're sawing heads off, you find a van full of eight heads.

• 1:53:35Speaker 03

  We weren't kidnappers and extortors down there all the time back then. One of the cases, OZL, we thought it was a wives tale. And this is sick, so I apologize to people that think this is way gross, but it's real. The first one isn't that gross. He had a line. He would feed people to. A line? A line, and that was the rumor. And then I can't remember if they went up in a fixed wing or a helicopter, but they flew over the line. And somebody was asking the other one, hey, what are all those bones? And they were like, ah, el pollo, you know, chicken. Well, that's a big ass chicken. That chicken looks like a femur, you know? So there's that. But the one that was really sick is, so when they would kidnap you, like if you lost a load,

• 1:54:18Speaker 03

  or they thought you stole something, or you didn't pay your quotas, because even as a undocumented, special interest alien, whatever you want to call it, illegal alien smuggler, you had to pay quotas to the cartel to smuggle through their territory. Same thing with Doug. If you got behind on that, they kidnap you, same MO. Three Suburbans pull up somewhere in South Texas, jump out on such and such corner. Everybody's in black BDUs, they grab you. That was the safest. They were the enforcement cartel. They'd take you over, beat you, start calling the families, saying, we want a hundred grand, three hundred grand, whatever. We'd start brokering the deal. Because we have border liaison officers, and we would do cross trainings with military and police in Mexico. So the border liaison officer calls and goes, hey, it's such and such time of day on this corner.

• 1:55:03Speaker 03

  Three Suburbans pulled up, the guy's name is this, it was this time. Okay, thirty minutes, forty, thirty minutes to an hour later, we get a call back. They got him. What's the deal? He brought a load back and it was missing a hundred grand. Okay, so now I'm in the house with the family going, okay, they want three hundred grand. Well, we don't have it. Well, they don't have it. They want a hundred grand. We don't have it. Well, what do you got? We got sixty grand. What else they got? Remember my V8, four by four? They got a Suburban. How many miles are on it? And here we are at midnight, rolling the Suburban over the bridge with sixty thousand dollars to get the sun back. Wow. So one of the, we thought was a wives tale, is that OZL had a, I don't know what the politically correct term is these days, but a midget.

• 1:55:48Speaker 03

  Small person? I don't know. But the rumor was back then that he had a midget who was very well endowed. And he would rape people for the cartel.

• 1:56:00Speaker 03

  You just let that soak in for a little bit.

• 1:56:02Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 1:56:04Speaker 03

  Uh, my comedy starts coming out. I'm like, how do you get the small person? I don't know.

• 1:56:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's his thing.

• 1:56:10Speaker 03

  Like, so, uh, we all thought it was BS. And then there was a Christmas Eve.

• 1:56:17Speaker 03

  We started getting calls. I was actually driving, uh, to Arizona for vacation. But I was on the phone calling sources and calling all the other agents. The, this guy had, uh, basically carjacked a car in Rio Grande City. So directly across the river is Camargo. So he gets in there. He didn't look at the backseat. There's an infant. Now the cartel's pissed at him for bringing heat and they are beating him and they're, I mean, it's, they used to hit him with the clubs. Throw kilos, bricks at him, cigarette burns, cigar burns, real big, um, uh, battery cables, stuff like that. Threatening him. And, uh, we got him back. But when he came across the bridge, my peers called me and go, holy shit, Scott, it's real.

• 1:57:02Speaker 03

  I go, what are you talking about? He says, this dude is bawling. When the call came in and the cartel was like, okay, let this one go. The midget was in the room. That guy was crying when he came back across the bridge. He was getting ready to get raped.

• 1:57:16Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:57:17Speaker 03

  Slightly sick, right?

• 1:57:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, slightly.

• 1:57:21Speaker 03

  It's a different world.

• 1:57:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's probably the least bad thing they could do to you.

• 1:57:26Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:57:29Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't know how to look in the mirror after all that.

• 1:57:31Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. I mean, you get out alive, I guess.

• 1:57:33Speaker 03

  It's insane.

• 1:57:34Joe Rogan?

  Or do you? So, other than the pedophile cases, uh, what, what were the most like shocking cases that you had to do?

• 1:57:44Speaker 03

  Hmm. Well, they're all a little shocking in their own way. Um.

• 1:57:49Joe Rogan?

  The pedophile one's gotta be the hardest one to like sleep at night.

• 1:57:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, but if.

• 1:57:53Joe Rogan?

  Just to know.

• 1:57:54Speaker 03

  But what a good feeling to get him.

• 1:57:55Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's a different feeling. That's a non-conflicted feeling when you get him.

• 1:57:59Speaker 03

  Good. Yeah. When she called me, uh, when the assistant solicitor called me and said, hey, he pled guilty. They got, he got 20 for, I can't remember which was for which, but he got 20 years for, uh, I believe the most molestation in 10 for hiring me to kill him. So, and then they had to do, state of Texas was 85%. Um, so yeah, it's gonna be a tough ride for him. Pardon the pun.

• 1:58:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:22Speaker 03

  But, uh, yeah, so crazy stuff, man, I mean, some of that neo-Nazi stuff was just insane.

• 1:58:27Joe Rogan?

  How'd you get involved in that?

• 1:58:29Speaker 03

  Well, uh, number one, I go where my skill set takes me. Number two, we kind of go to what the shift is in the FBI. Were people doing a lot of biker club stuff anymore? Not at that time. Uh, I was a criminal, uh, criminal investigator for pretty much my entire career. But towards the end, uh, in Tennessee, um, I switched over to the Joint Terrorism Task Force. And I really did it because it was just, I was having some disagreements. Some would be lightly, but I was having disagreements with management. And my MO had always been, even though I'd burned myself out before, once I got to Tennessee, I set up accountability buddies, I set up tripwires and stopped saying yes to everything

• 1:59:14Speaker 03

  and made ways to relax and balance and get myself back. Um, but towards the end, uh, we, I, I switched over to Joint Terrorism Task Force because, uh, again, my MO was try to be above average on your squad. Um, and then if you're kicking butt on stats and stuff like that, then, uh, maybe they won't say no to let me go do the undercover. Maybe they won't say no to let me go help put on this SWAT school or this SWAT call out. And that was what I did. Um, but that wasn't working for me in Tennessee anymore. And I, I went to the, the head of the division and, and requested to be moved.

• 1:59:56Speaker 03

  So I went to Joint Terrorism Task Force and, uh, my skill set kind of led right into that domestic terrorism stuff because it was like in the state of Tennessee, you have Aryan Nations, uh, which was the Tennessee, uh, Department of Corrections, TDOC, uh, prison gang, but it's white supremacy. Um, so as a case agent, I started working that stuff. And then I just started getting more exposed to those kind of cases. So now when the canvases start coming up or we're running an undercover op ourselves, uh, those cases are coming in and it's like, okay, I'll do that one unless anybody's got a disagreement, you know? And that's what I started doing. That's how we kind of got into those because we started getting more threats, you know, after the Charlottesville stuff. Now it's really getting kind of on the radar.

• 2:00:41Speaker 03

  They're like, man, this is, maybe we should be putting more. Resources. Maybe we should be putting, the FBI is saying, maybe we should be putting more resources to this domestic terrorism threat. And that's what I started getting. I mean, I would go into, I kind of mentioned it earlier, but a neo-Nazi group, but it's mainly online. And here I am for five months, reading post after post. And if I woke up after six hours of sleep, and I was fifteen hundred posts behind, I'd rewind it and read them all for five months, because I didn't want to miss anything, me personally. I didn't want to miss anything, or anything bad happened because I missed something. But after five months, and maybe meeting them once or twice, there was, it's all First Amendment protected.

• 2:01:24Speaker 03

  They weren't, they weren't doing anything to prepare for the violence, to cause violence. They're just preparing for the day. And then when the day happens, then they'll be ready. But again, I talk to people overseas, Canada, whatever, I have to explain. And I'm like, look, in the United States, we have a constitution. And your First Amendment is freedom of speech. I said, you can walk out in the street right here and say, I hate every, say, a racial slur. I hope every racial slur dies. That's not illegal. As you know, have you seen it? You can burn American flags. Freedom of speech. Try that in China.

• 2:02:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:02:03Speaker 03

  Let me know how that works for you. Death to China. Light the flag on fire. I'm not sure how long it'll last, right?

• 2:02:08Joe Rogan?

  Not long.

• 2:02:09Speaker 03

  But that's what we, that's, that's the hard thing about working domestic terrorism, is there's no federal domestic terrorism statute. So you're trying to see, what crimes are they committing, if any? And what can we do to get them off the street if they're planning bad things?

• 2:02:26Joe Rogan?

  So how did you infiltrate the neo-Nazi organization? Did you actually meet with them in person? Or was it mostly online?

• 2:02:35Speaker 03

  So, I'll just jump to the base.

• 2:02:38Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:02:39Speaker 03

  Because the base was the one that's kind of the beginning and the end of the book. They were actively recruiting. I mean, I was in the Klan too, for a little while, for the job. I gotta be careful I say it right?

• 2:02:51Joe Rogan?

  People clip that out.

• 2:02:53Speaker 03

  Back when I was in the Klan, we were good old boys. But the, they were recruiting openly online, the base was. And the base is an accelerationist group. And that's what I, again, great detail in the book, in the podcast, but the thing is, is most people here of white supremacy, they think hoods and robes and crosses on fire, right? That's not this, man. These are, these are, this is why they're called accelerationists. There's a book out there called Siege, written by James Mason, longtime white supremacist. It's a weird book. It's basically articles and interviews all just shoved together. But this guy kind of idolized and interviewed people like Charles Manson.

• 2:03:39Speaker 03

  You know, what a great role model. Um, I mean, if you're looking, uh, but he, he created a group called Atom Waffen. And this is what accelerationism is. Cause when I go to infiltrate the base, I'm just answering stuff they're putting out there. Emails, they're posting on Gab, uh, save your race, join the base. We're a survivalist group. Um, email is at thebase underscore one at protonmail.com. So I start answering that stuff. After about a week or so of emails back and forth, asking me everything, my ethnicity, my height, weight, uh, when was my red pill moment, which they kind of use the matrix theme there. So if they say, when were you red pilled?

• 2:04:22Speaker 03

  As a Christ follower, it's the same thing as when I was baptized or when I got saved, right? So if, if you're an accelerationist or that level of neo-Nazi and they say, what was your red pill moment? You need to know it because it's kind of like the big deal. That's when you said, ha, hate all of the people. So after about a week, a week or so of emails, I get on, uh, they tell me to download the wire app, similar to WhatsApp. You can call and talk on it and stuff like that and create groups all over. So I do like about an hour and 15 minute interview panel of like four or five people, asking me all kinds of stuff. I answered best I could, best I prepared for. And then they gave me a 24 hour rest period.

• 2:05:04Speaker 03

  So they said, now that you know what we are, we're going to give you 24 hours to think about if you want to be a part of us and we want 24 hours to think about it. But this is what they told me accelerationism was. They said,

• 2:05:17Speaker 03

  Accelerationist, they call it siege culture, kind of parlaying off the book, but they do not believe there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or from manmade events, and they want to speed that up. The group I was in was calling that boogaloo, the boogaloo, and everything always ends with an ethno-state. Now, it's not saying the groups that I was in, they weren't going to take over the entire United States, but they, the group I was in, one section was looking at property and land in the Appalachian Mountains. One section of the base was looking at the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. One section of the base had property in the Pacific Northwest.

• 2:05:56Speaker 03

  So, um, you get in there, you start learning that ideology, but again, in the beginning, I'm just ingratiating. I don't, I mean, we know they've been saying crazy stuff online, but is it illegal per se? No. But are they planning on taking steps to do some bad things? And that goes back to that domestic terrorism culture. You go in Telegram or whatever, you've got your, your Terrants and your Brevics, and they're in there, 4chan, 8chan, and they're posting right before they go and commit all the murders. You know, here I am, I'm going live. Watch this.

• 2:06:29Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 2:06:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, but imagine being in law enforcement and trying to look at all these thousands of posts and trying to figure out, well, which one's actually going to follow through? Which one is seriously planning on doing something? So you always got to stay vigilant and keep going after it.

• 2:06:46Joe Rogan?

  So what were these guys planning on doing? What was their, their accelerate moment?

• 2:06:51Speaker 03

  Well, per the siege culture, they like to do like guerrilla warfare tactics. So, they're against the Charlottesville stuff. Being in a group, picket signs, screaming racial slurs, you know, all this stuff. They're against that. They're like, that's stupid. You know, number one, you're making yourself a target, you're not doing anything. It's more guerrilla warfare tactics where, uh, let's say over here in Austin, power grid goes down. Over here, train gets derailed. Over here, water system's poisoned. Anything to create chaos and killing of anybody left. Anti-fash, um, uh, non-whites, very antisemitic, very, like way more than.

• 2:07:34Speaker 03

  It kind of opened my eyes when I started getting into some of these neo Nazis because for the most part, I thought when I thought racism, I thought white against black. Right. But these these neo Nazis groups I was in, man, they are they are anti Semitic, man. They cannot stand Jews.

• 2:07:50Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:07:50Speaker 03

  It's like, like it's sickening if you if you listen to it. But again, they want that Hitler. They want Hitler back. I mean, some of these guys were like talking about uh concave earth hollow earth Hitler's still alive. He's in hollow earth. He's with giant white men who are Anglo white with red hair and 15 plus foot tall. And I'm like, and I go, so where are these 15 foot tall white guys? And they're like, well, they're in middle earth with Hitler. They're waiting. And I go for what?

• 2:08:22Joe Rogan?

  NBA contracts.

• 2:08:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. Come on, but let's do this. Let's take this thing down. And sometimes I'm just comical with them. You're like, hey, we're we're not says, yeah, we're going to get the ethno state. Yeah, we're ready for the boogaloo. Yeah, we're building our kid. Yeah. Who's going to be Hitler? And everybody goes, uh. Well, there'll be one, buddy. Are we going to fight it out right now? Who's going to win this thing? But what happened with the base is a lot of them were into the pagan. And I I say this loosely. I have plenty of friends that are pagan. Uh Satru uh and and they are great people. Love them.

• 2:09:02Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean by pagan?

• 2:09:03Speaker 03

  Um, like the like, uh, so there's different pantheons, but the most common one is Norse, Norse Norse mythology. Basically, the, you know, uh, it's basically Marvel Universe.

• 2:09:16Joe Rogan?

  So they worship ancient Viking culture?

• 2:09:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, Odin, uh, Thor, whatever.

• 2:09:21Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:09:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, man. Um.

• 2:09:23Joe Rogan?

  Like, there's a church for that?

• 2:09:25Speaker 03

  Well, I won't say a church per se, but yeah, the whole block, a block is just think Viking kind of stuff. The ones that do it that are serious, uh, they they're upset that white supremacists have taken their stuff and used it. But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that Norse mythology too. He has, you know, he had, you know, looking for Thor's hammer or whatever, the holy grail biblical and all this stuff. But there's, there's Christian identity, which is making a comeback in the white supremacy realm. Not to be confused with Christianity. Christian identity is, if you can wrap your mind around this, they, a lot of them have a, uh, it's the dual seed line belief.

• 2:10:05Speaker 03

  So they take the story of the garden, Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the forbidden tree. They take that story and they say, okay, it's still the same, except the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent, who is a man of color, also known as Satan. And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, their offspring is Cain, and they are the mud race from then on. That's what they call them, mud, it's non-white. Mud race from then on down, but the procreation from Adam and Eve is able, and that's the pure white race. That's just one of the many belief systems. So when you see, I know, right?

• 2:10:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm like shaking my head like, what the fuck?

• 2:10:47Speaker 03

  Well, how did you get that?

• 2:10:49Joe Rogan?

  What are they using as like references? Like, how do they get this information?

• 2:10:53Speaker 03

  Ah, so as far back as, that I know, I'm sure it came out earlier, but there was the Aryan Nation, Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fair and all that stuff, and they taught that. They taught the Christian identity. Church of Jesus Christ Christian. Um, and they take that and twist it, you know, as if Jesus is just a white guy.

• 2:11:12Joe Rogan?

  And so did you physically meet with these guys and infiltrate their organization?

• 2:11:16Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, some of, some of those, yes. Um, and the Christian identity was kinda in the Klan belief that I, that I was in for a short moment. But the, the pagan, they're, just like I said, that the Christian identity takes the Bible and twists it. Then the paganism is taking Norse mythology, or if you're an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, and they're twisting it towards their white supremacy. And that's not what paganism really is. If you know, like, again, I've got friends that do it. They're upset with white supremacists. Using their stuff. But then again, in the base, there was a guy who wasn't a Satrue priest, and he led the first blood I ever attended, B L O T, which is kinda like the worship ceremony

• 2:12:01Speaker 03

  for pagans. I mean, we're down there with our shirts off, wiping blood on our chest, drinking mead, as if we're Vikings, and then praying to our gods, and they would take wood, carved wood, and they would carve runes and like white supremacy symbols in it, and we would cut ourselves and bleed on the runes and then set that on fire and pray until the fire went out.

• 2:12:24Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:12:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that was kinda-

• 2:12:26Joe Rogan?

  How many of these guys are out there in the world?

• 2:12:29Speaker 03

  I don't know. I mean, there's, there's academia and stuff that they're like, there's millions of white supremacists and Nazis are gonna be on your doorstep tomorrow. I'm not gonna say that.

• 2:12:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, they wanna call everything white supremacy, which is a real problem, cuz there's actual white supremacy out there.

• 2:12:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:12:43Joe Rogan?

  And when you call everything white supremacist-

• 2:12:45Speaker 03

  Does somebody disagreeing, or having a different belief system?

• 2:12:47Joe Rogan?

  Watching a video of a fucking crazy professor who's saying that marriage is white supremacist. It's the craziest video of all time. There's an undercover video where they, they interviewed this lady, and she, they were asking her questions, and she didn't know she was being recorded. She was a professor.

• 2:13:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:13:05Joe Rogan?

  Like, marriage is thin privilege, it's white supremacy, it's, you know, male privilege, which leads to white supremacy and white privilege, and like, just a bunch of gobbledygook nonsense words that she was attaching to just people getting married.

• 2:13:19Speaker 03

  Clearly, she's not a Christ follower, cuz if you, if you follow the Bible, it lays out what marriage is.

• 2:13:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, she's definitely not. She's a kook. But it's, the problem is calling everything white supremacy, it kind of, it obscures the fact that there's really people like the people that you're running into.

• 2:13:36Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:36Joe Rogan?

  They're real.

• 2:13:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. And-

• 2:13:38Joe Rogan?

  It's just like, how many of them, and where are they?

• 2:13:44Speaker 03

  Thousands, hundreds of thousands? Yeah, I'd say, I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but I'd say thousands. Thousands. Cause a lot of times, if you're in that community and you're looking, let's say this is a Telegram channel over here, and it's Terror Wave, or whatever it is, before it was taken down. And you see all these monikers, like I was Pell Horse in the base, I was Pell Horse, that was my moniker. And then you see Pestilence, and you see TMB, the Militant Buddhist, and you see Helter Skelter, and you say, well, you might go to another group, maybe they've changed their moniker, but you start realizing, hey, did you used to be Pestilence in another channel? Yeah, that's me, alright, you know what I mean? Right. But what's scary is, like in that base case, um, as I said before, I'm a tactical instructor,

• 2:14:28Speaker 03

  firearms instructor, I'm an alert instructor, which is right near where we're at right now, um, in San Marcos, Texas, uh, and, but you can't go undercover and help these, uh, help these guys train, or help them get better, because they might be doing bad things. So I go in, I had my whole backstory, former skinhead, former viker, and my skillset was like hand-to-hand combat. Um, could I shoot? Yeah, but I let them lead me. We went out there, and the first time we did tactical and firearms training, it was led by a 19-year-old kid, and it was good. It was good. And he's not military, and I'm like, I'm watching, I'm like, where the hell did you learn this?

• 2:15:11Speaker 03

  So a lot of stuff happens on gaming systems, because they're so realistic now. Wow. Yeah, I mean, these kids, you can go on, and if you got your mic on, you might get your butt handed to you by an 11-year-old kid, who's telling you to clear the hard corner, and slice the pie. They're using the same verbiage, and I'm like, holy crap, you know? Virtual world meets real world. Only problem is, is in the virtual world, you get to respawn.

• 2:15:35Speaker 03

  Not so much in the real world, you know, uh, I'm gonna respawn now. But, uh, yeah, he let it and they were shooting fast and accurate. They, it wasn't the best. They were mistakes. Um, but I was impressed with how safe they were, the two guys running at TMB and Pestilence, because that was a concern for me. Like, if you could see the aerial footage, like, when we first go out there and they're shooting, I'm way back behind them, because I'm like, I don't know how these people are. Right, right. I've seen plenty of bad shooters do some stupid things on the line. Um, and then we start working like that. So I start gaining their trust, do a couple of blots. Uh, hikes, drinking, rucking, whatever.

• 2:16:15Speaker 03

  And then it starts, uh, we're finding out a little bit more, not necessarily anything criminal. Uh, except for the fact that there was a Canadian, um, who was part of their, basically, it's like, it would be like their National Guard. Um, but he got doxed. And for the listeners that don't know, doxing basically is being outed. So a lot of these accelerationist groups are big on putting up flyers and stickers. Uh, they go by and they slap up stickers everywhere, you know, join the, uh, save your race, join the base with a QR code. You scan that QR code, it takes you right to bit shoot to a video of us, of a propaganda, propaganda recruitment video we filmed in Georgia. Wow.

• 2:16:57Speaker 03

  Of us shooting and everything. Um, and so there's one in Canada, he puts up flyers, somebody answers it. Uh, to make, again, it's more in depth in the book, but he meets this guy. Uh, the guy does the same panel kind of thing I did, but then he gets vetted face to face. So when you get vetted face to face, it's gonna be a little bit more intense. They do a face to face vetting of this guy. Uh, and he says, uh, the, the Punished Snake was the moniker, his name is Patrick Matthews. He was up there and he vetted him face to face, said he's good to go. So after about a week to two weeks, tops. In the main chat group, this dude bails. And it turns out that he was a journalist in Canada.

• 2:17:41Speaker 03

  Who went on his own and met Patrick, uh, Matthews. And infiltrated, at least to a certain degree, the base. And then he puts out in a big news article up there that this guy is Patrick Matthews and so Pat. Uh, our CMP comes to his house, takes his guns, he gets booted from the National Guard thing, loses his job, his parents don't like him anymore, and they, they lose him. They found his truck near the border of the United States. So, we're all looking for him. And you have to realize that on the base case, let's just say you've got forty targets. Well, they're all over the world, a lot of them in the United States.

• 2:18:23Speaker 03

  Well, every one of those FBI field offices are open separate cases, but we're all trying to work together because it's the same group. And, uh, we get to a point to where, I'm sorry, we were looking for, uh, Patrick Matthews, and there's an unbelievable case agent, uh, we had, we had several on the case, but Nate Plou was running, um, the case out of, out of, uh, Seattle because the leader of the base had property in, in Seattle's territory. But there was a case agent named Rashid, who's out of Baltimore, and he's running for the guys there.

• 2:19:01Speaker 03

  Rashid was able to figure out by some unbelievable phone analysis, uh, when Patrick came into the United States and we're tracking, we're all looking for him. We think we might know where he's at, and I show up at a training in North Georgia, in Rome, Georgia, and he's there. Uh, when I pulled up, I see vehicles and I'm counting the heads under the, under the barn, and I'm like, there's one extra person. I know that's that person's car, and I say, well, I'll see when I walk up, I walk up, and by then his hair had all grown out and had a red bushy beard, and he's like, as soon as he started talking, it was a Canadian accent, and I was like, hey, man, welcome to the United States, brother. So now we had him there. And now we're starting to find out a little bit more about death plots and this, that, and the other, but is it just drunk talk, or are they actually planning on doing something? Right.

• 2:19:46Speaker 03

  And then that's when we get to the, uh, the, the big Halloween of two thousand nineteen hate camp. Um, and there was base members that came in from all over the United States, uh, and again, I'd done some pagan blots with them, like I said, cut yourself. I remember the, the first time I did it, I'm, I was like, damn it, why didn't I bring my own knife? And, uh...

• 2:20:13Speaker 03

  That when it was time to cut your finger, the tip of their knife was broken. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to slice my damn arm open, my tats, and I'm not going to slice my finger open. I'm trying to stab my finger to bleed with a broken tip. Note to self, bring your own knife next time. So I did. Uh, but we're doing, uh, Halloween. We're there and I doze off. We've already done hand to hand combat, some firearm stuff, had a couple of drinks and I'm charging my phone in my truck. It's really cold, so I kind of doze off. I wake up to pounding on my window, "Pell horse, pell horse, you gotta get up, you gotta see this, you gotta see this." I'm like, "What's going on?" And they're like, "Man, remember us talking about a sacrifice and the goat?" I'm like, "Yeah." And they go, "We got the goat."

• 2:20:57Speaker 03

  So I get out and there's this ram, uh, in the back of one of the members' trucks. They had gone not far away to a house that had three rams and they all dressed up in, and I'll paint the picture for you because, uh, the clothing, the, the camouflage pattern that the base wore was fleck tarn, because fleck tarn pattern is German. Uh, again, how Hitler kind of stuff. So they went, wear balaclavas, cover everything up, they hop fences, steal this ram and bring it back to the farm in Rome, Georgia. So I wake up and I walk out there and this thing's crapping all over the bed of the truck.

• 2:21:39Speaker 03

  And one of the members, pretty big fella, he says, "Man, this thing's shitting everywhere." And I said, "Well, hell, I would be too if I just got kidnapped by a bunch of dudes and fleck tarn and balaclavas, you know?" Um, so now we're kind of preparing and I'm thinking, "Man, are we really going to do this?" And I walked over to the guy, his, he, he went by Eisen and he was going to be leading the block. And Eisen says, uh, I, I go over to him and I go, "Man, is it, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat?" And he says, "You can't let the goat hear you say that." And I'm like, "Okay, do tell." And he's like, uh, he goes, "This is a sacrifice to Odin. This, this, this is a beautiful sacrifice. We love this ram. We love this goat, whatever the hell it was.

• 2:22:23Speaker 03

  They, we love it and we're showing it love and it is being blessed to go to Valhalla and meet Odin." So the rule was, uh, everybody leave your weapons and we're going to go down to the holy spot and deep in the woods. Hundred acre farm, by the way. And we're walking down there and the goat's just making all kinds of racket. And we get down, I'm sorry, I should, let me rewind just a little bit. I'm trying to figure out in my head. Should I do this or should I just blow the case right now? And I'm thinking, well, they said they took the goat. Okay, so that's theft of an animal. That's not federal. I'm like trying to go through my head. So I go to my truck and I lean into one of my devices.

• 2:23:08Speaker 03

  And I'm like, hey, if y'all can hear me, because when I was out in the field, I'm covered. So for that four day hate camp, they were covering me 24/7, running shifts. Uh, they being law enforcement. Um, and I go and I go, hey, if y'all can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go down here and sacrifice this animal. And I'm running it through my brain and I know they said they stole it. But I can't come up with a good enough reason to stop this right now. If you guys don't want me to do this, you gotta send me a sign and let me know. And I waited and I waited and it was crickets. And then I said, okay, I guess I'm going down to the woods.

• 2:23:51Speaker 03

  So we go down. You had your chance. I was waiting.

• 2:23:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:23:57Speaker 03

  So we go down to the woods and, uh, we get there and I don't know how I ended up at the back of the goat. We're in a circle around the goat and I'm at the back of it. And Eisen, who's leading the blot, is talking about, we're going to be starting the wild hunt. In Norse mythology, the wild hunt is basically Odin and a bunch of other gods going out in the middle of the night and whipping the crap out of every other god that they didn't like or whatever. And the twisted version of the base, starting the wild hunt was going to start with the sacrifice of this goat, which he named Gar. His middle name was Garfield, named after his grandfather. To show love to the goat, he named it Gar after his grandfather. Okay.

• 2:24:39Speaker 03

  So, he says, once we commit, we do sacrifice, and it goes to Valhalla, that, that the wild hunt will start, but the wild hunt was gonna be cleansing the world of non-whites.

• 2:24:54Joe Rogan?

  So, the goat was the start of this whole...

• 2:24:58Speaker 03

  Wild hunt. The wild hunt. It's in Northmister.

• 2:25:00Joe Rogan?

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• 2:26:51Speaker 03

  It's called the Wild Hunt, but again, they're twisting it.

• 2:26:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:26:54Speaker 03

  White supremacy beliefs. So he's got this like machete type object and I'm at the back of the goat and he's going through. He says his own prayer and he didn't lead the Bloteneers good as the actual Asatru priest that did it before, but he's trying and he's going back with this, um, he's going back with this machete and I'm holding the back of the goat and somebody's holding the front of the goat and he's coming down, he's practicing, practicing and he's a pretty stocky kid. And finally somebody says, just do it. Man, he rares back with all of his strength and comes down, whack, right on the back of the neck of the goat. I don't even know if it broke a hair, Joe. I don't know if it's because the back strap of the goat was so thick

• 2:27:37Speaker 03

  or the blade was dull, but when he hit it, all you heard was baah. And I, and for that split second, I'm holding the back of the goat and I go, oh man, I just saw blood. I just pictured something bad happening. And then somebody says, has anybody got a gun? Do you hear? Do it again, do it again. And I take two swings and you hear, see if I got a gun. Well, I told you, we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down. Well, this one cat, who was probably the least qualified person to be carrying a firearm anywhere within miles of us, said, yeah, I got mine. And we were like, what are you doing with your gun? So TMB takes the gun, hands it to Izan. Izan, we're still all R

• 2:28:17Speaker 03

  and E's in a circle around the goat for this sacrifice. Izan points the gun at the goat, goat's head, and then turns the opposite way.

• 2:28:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 2:28:26Speaker 03

  And that's when the instructor in him, he comes out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He's like, what? I go, look at what you're shooting at, man. We're all in a circle. The hell are you doing? So then he chambers around and gets up close, pow. Even on the recording, you can hear the goat hit the ground. Well, it's sitting there twitching. It's been like two, three minutes. It's still twitching. And I'm like, hey, why don't you go, uh, put another bullet in the ram?

• 2:28:54Speaker 03

  He's like, I think it's dead. And I go, I'm just saying, for the love of the goat. And it being happy in Valhalla. Let's give it a good clean kill. Trying to use this logic again. Yeah. And he puts another one in it and then somebody says, yeah, it's definitely dead. So you think it's over? No, it's not over. Now they slice the goat's throat and fill a cup with all of his blood. And one of the guys had brought a sheet of acid, Izan had brought a sheet of acid. Oh, boy. Yeah, right. It's supposed to help with the shaman, which is kind of entering the spirit world during your block.

• 2:29:30Speaker 03

  You're gonna get high. And I'm shining the light because it's pitch dark, we're in the middle of the woods. And I'm shining the light for Izan. And he's going around and what's happening is, is he's tearing off a tab. Not everybody did it. Of course, I didn't do it. But he tears off a tab, puts it under his tongue. Some people never even done it before. And then you chase it down with the blood of the goat. Oh, boy. Part of the sacrifice. So he gets around. Some people do it. Most people do it. A couple of us didn't.

• 2:29:57Speaker 03

  And then it gets to me. And I'm looking at the cup full of blood. And by the time, by this time, it's coagulating. It's all clotty. And I'm looking at it and I'm like, oh, man, I do not want to turn that up. I really don't want to turn it up. And I think it was pestilence that gave me an out. He's, man, you can just taste it. So I stuck my finger all the way down in the blood, pulled it out, sucked all the blood off my finger. And that was my way of dealing with the sacrifice. Not exactly Fear Factor stuff.

• 2:30:29Speaker 03

  But I would have sucked, I would have been good on that show, except for the gross stuff. But yeah, but disgusting. So over the next, actually, the next day of training was completely obliterated because everybody, 90% of the members were all still high, been up all night on acid. So we couldn't train the next day. And I was pissed. I told him, like, this is a wasted fricking day. I said, you sons of, you know, I was giving him a hard time. And then by Saturday, we were back training again. And then by Sunday night, I'm sorry, Friday, we were training again. And by Saturday night, we did a bunch more training through the day, like, you know, navigating the land, living off the, living off the land, building bunkers and stuff like that.

• 2:31:12Speaker 03

  And then it's time to shoot some more for the propaganda video. So we go back down in the woods. And at this, now we're doing a bonfire at the holy spot. And we are burning American flags. And we're burning holy bibles. Uh, while everybody's yelling F your Jewish God. Uh, death to America, stuff like that. And I remember the one kid that was pretty clumsy. He almost fell in the fire trying to light the flag on fire. And in the video, you can see me grab the other side. Part of me wanted to just let him fall. Just seeing go, I don't know if he didn't wind up in flames or not, but a little Darwinism. But I hold the flag. We burned the American flag.

• 2:31:55Speaker 03

  We're screaming all that and, and they take, they take, uh, holy bibles. And they, this is on the video. They lay them face down in the fire. And I watched the fire go up. It's coming back down. We've been there a minute. Hell yeah, high fiving white power, all this stuff. And it's coming back down. And if you've ever seen like, um, like a book in a fire, all this pages, they get that, it just, it looks a certain way, kinda ashy. Well, uh, the one guy, the Canadian guy, he, he, he can't not screw with the fire. He's over there, he's probably still got acid in his system. Who knows? He's still poking the fire like, oh man. So he's stoking it back up. Well, while he's trying to stoke it back up, he flips something over.

• 2:32:38Speaker 03

  A Bible opens face up and there's nothing burned on it at all. Like the outside's charred, but there's not a single page burnt.

• 2:32:48Speaker 03

  And I'm like, okay. That's different. So he's trying to get it started. He, he starts tearing page by page, gets it on fire, bonfire goes back up. We're all doing our thing. Bonfire comes back down. He's poking the coals again. I'll be damned if another Bible doesn't flip open completely unburned. And I watched them put it on that face first. Now I know some people with science and they're like, well, and a lot of bibles, the page is made out of clay and they don't burn. But listen, I watched the flag burn. I watched all that stuff burn. Um, and I actually have a picture that if you blow it up, I didn't realize it. I was just taking pictures like everybody else was taking pictures. But I, I was in my hotel room one night just going through my pictures and I blew it up and you can clearly see a holy Bible in the flames. So I'm a believer.

• 2:33:35Speaker 03

  My faith is huge throughout the book. I wouldn't have not have been able to do any of it, in my opinion. But I remember when that second Bible flipped over, one of the, one of the base members goes, he goes, "Man, these effing bibles just won't burn." And I remember, I did it very nonchalantly, maybe only in my head, but I did a little Sammy Sosa, you know, to the sky, you know? I'm like, "Yeah, you get them, Lord." Yeah, I'm like, "Yeah." That's funny. By the way, if you wanna blow everybody up, y'all just let Scotty know, and I'll be real still right now. But, uh, yeah, so after that week, I kinda said, I got a pretty dumb sense of humor, but I got back to the office and I said, "Man,

• 2:34:15Speaker 03

  I've been doing undercover work off and on since 1996." And I said, "I know my skill set takes me to different places and other people," I said, "but I have never had to burn bibles, burn an American flag, and I damn sure wasn't with a group of people that went out and stole a goat and sacrificed it at a pagan ritual and drank his blood." I said, "I've done that in three days with these guys." And I mean, I felt weird. I felt weird when I got back. I just, you know, I, I even texted my pastor. I'm like, "I need you to say a prayer." I just felt, I don't know, dirty, something, I don't know.

• 2:34:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:46Speaker 03

  Felt weird, you know?

• 2:34:47Joe Rogan?

  Which is weird that guys like that exist and organize and find other guys like that and get together.

• 2:34:52Speaker 03

  It's online. It's this phone.

• 2:34:54Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 2:34:55Speaker 03

  Listen, a lot of these kids were young. Um, I say kids, 'cause I, I, it was the first alias I ever did where I made myself younger. My whole FBI career, I was always two years older. It was just easy to remember. Uh, I mean, I turned 40 with the Outlaws. So when I turned 42 years later in real life and I'm in my, wherever I was at, McAllen or Tennessee, I'm like, "Yeah, my other party was a little better." I'm not gonna lie. I'm like, you know, the Outlaws party was, I mean, thank you guys for throwing me a party, but this is not really nothing compared to when I turned 42 years ago. But for the base, I had to hustle and get in there fast because we were getting calls from world working partners

• 2:35:35Speaker 03

  because, again, this is online. You hop in those groups, there's people from South Africa, Australia, UK, Norway, you name it, and they're all, because it's online. Now, they may not be able to get weapons like we got weapons, but they were even planning on flying into the States and doing some hate crime, I mean, hate crime, well, I'm sure we'd be doing hate crimes, but, uh, hate camp. But they dive in, and what I saw a lot of is Younger, younger guys, um, outcasts.

• 2:36:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:05Speaker 03

  Uh, don't have a job, can't get a partner. You know, and they just dive down this rabbit hole of hate. They've probably been bullied. Um, and they dive down this rabbit hole of hate. And it's always, it seems like it goes back to like gangs and cults and stuff like that. They're trying, it's that need to belong. And they want to bring you in and that's how they get you.

• 2:36:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:27Speaker 03

  Um, and then power and then, and being inclusive, having, having people with your own like mind. But that's not just on the white supremacy side. Same thing's happening on the Islamic, uh, radical Islamist side.

• 2:36:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:40Speaker 03

  They're, they're, uh, radicalizing you online and inundating you with videos. You could go into gab, I don't even know if gab's still around, but you could go into gab and there would be a group called fourteen words. Well, that's the fourteen words coined by David Lane. It is, it is famous in the white supremacy culture. It says something to the, I don't have it memorized anymore. Uh, as I say a lot of times when I'm speaking, I go, hey, uh, just so you guys know, I appreciate the questions, but since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore.

• 2:37:09Joe Rogan?

  Probably a good decision.

• 2:37:10Speaker 03

  I'm just saying, I mean, I appreciate you asking me, but.

• 2:37:12Joe Rogan?

  Were they the wackiest people that you were around?

• 2:37:17Speaker 03

  It's gonna be close.

• 2:37:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, obviously the pedophiles are the most disturbing.

• 2:37:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's gonna be close, but the,

• 2:37:26Speaker 03

  the, I don't want to say I'm not easily shocked. It's just that, uh, I mean, you see so much stuff. It's, it's like, again, it's that proverbial, uh, uh, coroner who shows up eating a sandwich where brains are everywhere because they've seen them. They gotta eat, you know, they're just used to it. Um, so there's, there's definitely been some wacky things. I mean, on the case agent side, that stuff on the border was pretty wacky. But undercover wise, um, these guys, I mean, they were.

• 2:37:56Speaker 03

  I don't know about calling them wacky, but just they were planning it. I mean, what we did is we uncovered violent, we uncovered several murder plots. They had found a couple that they believe were an Antifa couple, a couple of counties over in Georgia, and we went and cased the place. The idea was, it started, it took a while to come to fruition because it changed a couple of times, but essentially what was agreed upon is that we were all going to be the Georgia cell. When I say cell, it's C E L L, which by the way, it's probably a good time to say, the base in Arabic is Al Qaeda.

• 2:38:33Joe Rogan?

  Ah, wow.

• 2:38:35Speaker 03

  So Al Qaeda wanted to have three to five man cells, C E L L, I know I got a redneck accent, cells all over the world waiting on that D-Day call. Well, the base, which stands for Al Qaeda, wanted three to five man cells all over the world waiting for the boogaloo.

• 2:38:54Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:38:54Speaker 03

  You've got kids, 21-year-old, has no car, has no job, but has an arsenal in his closet. He's wearing plate carriers, or the same plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears. It's not cheap stuff. And however they're getting their money, either from parents or whatever they're doing, they are building their kit for what they refer to as the day, the set off of the race war. So we uncovered those murder plots. I remember Helter Skelter, we got to postpone it because once we figured out they were trying to kill people, man, we got to slow this thing down and make sure we've got control of it. Much like a murder for hire. If you're hiring me to kill somebody, I want to make sure that I got the contract so you're not out trying to find somebody else to kill this person.

• 2:39:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:39:38Speaker 03

  So we were riding out there and Helter had not seen the house yet. And Helter, I'll tell you the plan in a second. Helter, we're riding out there and Helter goes, hey, uh,

• 2:39:53Speaker 03

  If you don't mind, man, I'd really like to pop my cherry on this one. Well, you and I here pop my cherry, it probably means something different. Cause I was like, what the, what are you talking about? And then Luke TMB told me, he goes, I think he actually wants to participate in the killing. And he said, man, I've been waiting for this for two years. He goes, I actually want to be, I want to put one of the bullets in their head. And then I said, well, it's a 22, 25, whatever with the silencer on it. It may take more than one, shouldn't be a big deal. But the idea was, and this is how much, this is how much research was done. We're going to go to a campsite. We're going to leave everything electronic there. We're going to leave from there. We're going to have a, a car that doesn't come back to anybody, rental car, whatever, fake plates, whatever. We're going to go to a pay by the hour hotel, motel.

• 2:40:36Speaker 03

  We're going to go there, we're going to scrub and scrub and wash and wash to get any flakes of skin that may be loose to come off. Uh, as detailed as Vaseline on your eyebrows, facial hair, so you don't drop any kind of DNA. Um, tape up, kind of like WMD, we're going to tape our jacket to our gloves, our pants to our boots. So nothing can leak out. Um, he had, Luke had even done so much research. He had read that a lot of people who, who kill somebody for the first time, lose control of their bowels. So he was suggesting we all wear Depends while we go commit the murder. I didn't tell him I'd ever killed anybody, but I looked at him and said, I think I'm okay. I don't need to wear Depends. Um, so that was the thing.

• 2:41:19Speaker 03

  And then we were going to go into the house, uh, breach our way in, murder whoever's there. Uh, because it was like, are there any kids there? Helter was like, I don't have a problem killing a comic kid. Now Helter kind of looked like a normal guy, had a computer IT job. He said that was a great cover for him. Cause, cause everybody thinks he's just a normal person in society. Um, this is a guy who also told me, he said, uh, again, they want to accelerate the downfall. This guy told me, he said, uh, I voted for Hillary Clinton. And I was like, I'm in here with neo Nazis. And it threw me off guard. I'm like, why, why would you do that? And he goes, think about it, bro. He said,

• 2:42:00Speaker 03

  We want to accelerate the collapse of society. Because if she gets in, they usually try to defund the police. They make our military weaker. There's going to be riots, there's going to be all this stuff. And there's just going to be chaos. It'll help speed up the downfall of society. Wow. That's how, that's what they're thinking is. Um, so we got that murder plot going on. And then you have the Canadian guy and his cell up in, uh, actually it was, it would have been, Can't Go Back, which is, uh, Brian Lemley. Um, they had a cell up in the Maryland area. And I went up and I, I, I trained with them. And they, at that point in time, so it would have been coming up to January of 2020,

• 2:42:43Speaker 03

  there was going to be a huge Second Amendment rally in Virginia. Because the governor at the time was pretty liberal, did not like guns and was going to be making a lot of, uh, was trying to crack down on guns, Second Amendment. So the idea of those base members was, what if that's the set off of the boogaloo? What if, while all those people are there, you've got three percenters, which is not illegal. You got militia, which is not illegal, but you've got people wanting to do nefarious things, most likely. You've got cops. What if we just pop a couple of rounds? Nobody know who's shooting at who. And everybody, and maybe that's the kickoff of, of the boogaloo. Again, there's not a lot of forethought and afterthought with these guys. It's like, what do you, what about the national, I mean, what about Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine? What about fricking cops? You know, we'll deal with that.

• 2:43:28Speaker 03

  What about girlfriends? I ask them, I go, you know, I hear you guys talking about procreation all the time. I don't see any women. I got a woman. She's not for share. And they're like, oh, we're just raping. And I go, I'm sorry, what? He goes, yeah, we're just going to rape the women. And when D-Day happens and it's the boogaloo, yeah, we're just going to take the women and rape them. I kind of giggled and I said, you guys don't have a lot of experience with women, do you?

• 2:43:51Speaker 03

  And they're like, wow. And I go, well, that stuff might work for a little while, but sooner or later, you're gonna have to go to sleep. You might wake up missing some parts you went to bed with. I'm like, what are you talking about? But we uncovered all that and we got enough evidence against them that everybody was happy. And the week of the takedown, I'm sorry, yeah, it would have been close to the week of the takedown. I had to postpone it. I'd had a lumbar fusion in 2002. What I didn't know, I thought it was just my disc, a bulging disc or something. What I didn't know is that fusion had broken free. And for about 15 years, I just had nothing. I had no disc. The cadaver bone dissipated. So my back was spasming really, really bad. Like, I couldn't get out of the floor. So

• 2:44:36Speaker 03

  I took some prednisone, got off the floor with electric stim. I just had, we had to postpone it for a week. So then I went and on a Friday, I flew into Baltimore, met the case team, drove up Saturday to Delaware, trained all day with those guys, helped get more information that everybody wanted. Came back late to Baltimore, flew to Atlanta, drove up to try to close the deal with the Georgia crew. And I think I got home Monday for a couple of hours. I went back. Now I'm meeting with the SWAT teams because we're planning on the takedown. And by Wednesday, I picked up Luke, who lived on the 100 acre

• 2:45:19Speaker 03

  farm. And we did a ruse where the car, like my car was messed up. I'm like, did you hear that? Actually, more divine intervention. I was gonna fake that something was wrong with my car and my truck. We're driving, all of a sudden, something goes bam, like that. And I go, I didn't run over anything. I go, did you hear that? He said, yes. I swear, if that damn brake caliper froze again. I said, let me pull over. Well, I pulled over to the spot SWAT team wanted me to. And then we did a ruse. I was, I was around the back of the truck looking and another truck pulls up. I'm like, oh, my gosh, man, I can't believe you're here. And then I jump in that truck and then the SWAT team and the Bearcats rolling over the hill. And they took him without incident. Helter Skelter and Pestilence got picked up without incident. We kept all that quiet on Wednesday because

• 2:46:00Speaker 03

  come Thursday morning, SWAT teams from Washington Field Office and Baltimore Field Office were gonna be hitting that crew. So we wanted to keep it quiet. So now Thursday, they get arrested. Now stuff's starting to come out. I'm still in a chat group and Friday.

• 2:46:17Speaker 03

  I'm watching it and they're like, pale horse, are you there? And they're like, wait a minute, now the affidavits are starting to come out. It says that, it says that there's a federal undercover agent that infiltrated the base. And they're like, who's a damn fed in here? And I'm just being quiet. And somewhere around 5:15, the leader of the base, he went by the monikers Norman Spears and Roman Wolfe. His real name is Ronaldo Nazaro. So you can let this sink in. Here's an American citizen born in America, went to Villanova, was in the army, to my understanding, army intel, and he was contracted at some point for some job in the Department of Justice. Uh, now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia. And I guess he supposedly teaches English. They tried to say the base didn't have a leader. He's definitely the leader.

• 2:47:02Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:47:03Speaker 03

  Um, and uh, as a Russian family. So you can do your own speculation there. I'm not working that case anymore.

• 2:47:11Joe Rogan?

  How fucking crazy.

• 2:47:12Speaker 03

  Right? What was his red pill moment? Cause clearly if you look at his history, he was kinda on the liberal side. Something happened somewhere. And then he starts spewing crazy stuff. And then the base gets infiltrated by like journalists from Vice. Well, then they tighten up. Every time the base got infiltrated, they tightened their op sec more and more. Every propaganda video we did, the rule was it has to be better than the last one. Cause we're trying to get everybody. And so I'm watching all this roll out. There's no way a feds can hear this, that and the other, blah, blah, blah. And then I, I see Roman finally respond around like five ish on Friday. And he's like, I'm not sure we could have found him. Cause he was good. Uh, he attended every meeting, which I didn't. He said, he attended every meeting, which maybe that should have been a red flag,

• 2:47:57Speaker 03

  but I didn't attend every training or meeting. Um, and I'm like, okay, he's figured out it's me. And then he said something else and then that was it. It says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolfe. So I screenshotted that and I sent it to all the case teams all over the United States and the headquarters FBI. And I said, and I'm out.

• 2:48:15Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:48:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. So they went down. That was a, that was a wild case. And if you want to get into like the effects on family and stuff. At that point, I mean, we're talking 2020. I started in 96 at a state and local level. But my wife, we were dating when I was a narc. So she was kinda used to, hey, I went out and picked up some hookers and got some cocaine stuff, but. Um, clearly, there were some very rough times, especially during that three-year period around the outlaws. But it's not always easy. But what she says, because people always ask, and the spouses do not get enough credit at all. She's not law enforcement. She's not desensitized in my world. Right. Um, she used to freak out and be nervous when I'd go on undercovers.

• 2:49:00Speaker 03

  And what she would do is, to help her cook, she moved furniture. I'd come homing up in the door and trip over stuff. I'm like, what in the? How did the couch get? Who moved that refrigerator? You know, crazy stuff. But one day, what she said is, she said, look, she just had to give it up to God. She's like, I can sit here and worry every day, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna kill myself worrying about it. But I essentially don't have control. I gotta pray that you're good at what you do. And, uh, and, you know, if it's your time to go, he can take me anytime he wants. But finishing the base case is the first time, like an idiot, I should have realized it. But I realized, after an undercover, I have to decompress.

• 2:49:43Speaker 03

  I have to kind of, okay, all right, I get my mind, all right, that's done, okay? So does she. Right. And we were sitting out on the back porch, having a, having an adult beverage. I might have been smoking a cigar. But she said something to the effect of, uh, something, I was at the base, and she was like, yeah, I was covering you in prayer. And I kind of giggled. And she's like, she looks at me, and I'm like, what? I mean, we've been doing this for a while, right? I mean, you don't, you don't have to, like, be worried about me worried about me. We've been doing this a minute. She jerked a knot in my butt, man. She looked at me stern, and she said, let me tell you something. You are my husband, and I'm your wife, and it's my job to cover you. And when you're going on these things, I'm covering you.

• 2:50:28Speaker 03

  And I stopped smiling, and I said, I greatly appreciate that, and I'm sorry if I insulted you, but thank you. Wow. craziness. What a life you've had.

• 2:50:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, brother, thank you very much for being here. It was great talking to you. Great hearing these stories. Fucking amazing. So insane and so interesting.

• 2:50:48Speaker 03

  I do have a wacky one. I forgot.

• 2:50:50Joe Rogan?

  Another one?

• 2:50:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, you want a wacky one?

• 2:50:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:50:52Speaker 03

  It's a murder-for-hire, basically.

• 2:50:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:50:54Speaker 03

  It was, uh, I got hired to do, me and another task force officer, who went with me on the undercover. Essentially, they thought we were bikers and they ended up hiring us to do four home invasions and murder two people. So you want to talk about wacky people? This is towards the end of my career.

• 2:51:09Speaker 03

  Her name was Tammy. She gets in, it's all in the news and the court records. Uh, we go and we meet the husband. We thought the husband was the one wanting to get us. And we were like off a dirt road. It's pretty rough, man. Like, I like walking up to the place. I'm like, hey, man, watch out, sharp object, sharp object, TB, MRSA.

• 2:51:27Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:51:27Speaker 03

  MC, you know, um, so we meet him and he's like, uh, oh, that's really not my plan. It's my old lady's plan. I go, where's your old lady? Well, she's asleep. Were you gonna wake her up? You want me to? I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you if you're not planning it. I'm here to make money. So we pick her up. She comes out, gets in the truck. We start driving around, looking at these locations. Uh, where they wanted it, because they knew some people that were dealing dope. They had the ends on where the guns and the money were, so they thought. And they wanted us to do the home invasions and kill them. Um, but while we're riding around, she says, uh,

• 2:52:04Speaker 03

  if you need somebody tortured, I'm really good in torture. I love torture.

• 2:52:08Speaker 03

  I'm driving. She's in the passenger seat, clawing herself. She's weathered. Yeah, she's weathered, tweaking, probably. And, uh,

• 2:52:18Speaker 03

  this is how my mind works. So she's, she's like, yeah, I'm into torture. She goes, you know, that you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it up a man's penis and rip it back out and then pour salt in the penis. Well, now the guys in the back of the truck are going, oh, my gosh. What she didn't know was two weeks prior to that, I had my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my first lumbar fusion. That wasn't the problem. They messed up my privates and they had to dry cath me. So when she's talking about this hanger going in and out, I'm kind of feeling, I'm like, I think I know what's similar to that. Um. So she says that and then she says, yeah, and you can take a PVC pipe and you can run it up to somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up it and rip it out.

• 2:53:02Speaker 03

  And I, we pull up to a red light and I leaned over and I go, why are you so angry? And she's like, oh, no, I said, are you sure you don't want to kill these people? She's like, oh, no, I'm too well known, but if you need somebody tortured, I can do it. Then on the next ride, well, or riding to the next place, she says that her husband went on a cocaine bender and she told him never to do that again. Cocaine myth, something. Uh, she said cocaine, but he'd been gone for three days. She couldn't find him. He comes home after being high three, four days and he crashes. She's so pissed at him. She tells us the story that he's naked. She takes a two by four, shoves it under his back legs, takes an industrial stapler and staples his scrotum to the board. He didn't wake up. That's how, that's how down he was or his crash was.

• 2:53:44Speaker 03

  But when he did, he finds himself hooked to a board and he's screaming for help and she wouldn't help him. He had to call a friend to do it. So if you think the story's BS, if you think the story's BS, we confirmed it with the husband. He's like, oh yeah, yeah, she did it. I ain't never had no woman do nothing like that to me before. And I'm like. So my buddy in the back, he goes, uh, you really don't like men, do you? And she's like, I've been unlucky in love. But in my head, Joe, that's when I'm looking over and I go, these are my people. This is my skill set. This is what I get. I don't get, I don't get Wall Street.

• 2:54:19Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 2:54:22Speaker 03

  So yeah, there's, there's all kinds of stuff like that, man.

• 2:54:25Joe Rogan?

  God damn. That's a crazy life, brother.

• 2:54:28Speaker 03

  Yep. So now, now it's book. Uh, I still teach alert.

• 2:54:33Joe Rogan?

  Tell everybody the book.

• 2:54:34Speaker 03

  Uh, the book is codename Pail Horse. Uh, and it's how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis. Uh, but it's not just white supremacy. It's got the outlaws, it's got personal stuff, the life, there's murder for hire cases all in there, the pedophile stories in there, um, public corruption cases where, I mean, some of the targets, like I got put in a corner, I, I underestimated. I'm dealing with a guy who's toothless and a mountain backwoods guy and, and he, he beat me at chess that night. And I ended up with a bag of cocaine open shoved in my face. He's got a sawed off shotgun, a red bone hound's growling in my crotch and he's like, if I find out you're the law, you're a dead man. Do it if you're not a cop. I had to figure out a way to get out of that, you know?

• 2:55:18Speaker 03

  So there's stuff like that all in there. I bonded with that guy too. I, you know.

• 2:55:24Joe Rogan?

  That's part of your skillset, right?

• 2:55:26Speaker 03

  And when they sent, when somebody sent me his obituary, I felt, I felt sad.

• 2:55:29Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:55:31Speaker 03

  This is my last line from him, and I think you'll like it. These are some of the people you deal with. He says, now Scott, I'm gonna speed it up because he was on pills a lot and he drank all day and did cocaine all day. So it was a constant battle of being pickled. But he's like, I, I think he died five years before I met him. I was like, I was like, I'm pretty sure it's the dope keeping him alive. I think he died, he just didn't know it yet. But he would be like, now Scott, you know, I don't do cocaine anymore. And I'd go, I know, man. He goes, I used to do boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore. I say, I know. And he'd pour cocaine in his hand and he goes, but this right here, that's just a bump.

• 2:56:09Speaker 03

  And I'm looking going, what? You just did cocaine? And he said, and you know, I don't sell cocaine anymore either. And I'd say, I know, man. He goes, I used to sell truckloads of it. I said, I know, I know you don't do it. Now, but if you need them five ounces, I can get them for you for this much money. And I'm like, I don't, that's the kind of stuff, man. You gotta find humor in that, but yeah. May he rest in peace.

• 2:56:30Joe Rogan?

  May he rest in peace. Well, thank you, Scott. Thank you for everything. That was a lot of fun.

• 2:56:34Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:56:35Joe Rogan?

  Appreciate it.

• 2:56:35Speaker 03

  I appreciate you, man.

• 2:56:36Joe Rogan?

  And good luck on the book. I guarantee it's gonna sell like crazy. One more time, Jamie, throw that up there so everybody can take a look at it. There it is. Codename Pale Horse. It's available now. Did you do audiobook?

• 2:56:48Speaker 03

  Uh, yes, I'm sorry. Thank you for saying that. It's my voice.

• 2:56:50Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 2:56:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's my voice.

• 2:56:52Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 2:56:52Speaker 03

  Uh, that was, actually, that was something I was told I needed to say.

• 2:56:55Joe Rogan?

  Has to.

• 2:56:56Speaker 03

  The, so, yeah, I've, no offense to the other peers of mine that have done books or just mentor, or people that have done it before me, but if I click on it and I hear, there I was in the basement. I'm like, what in the hell?

• 2:57:08Joe Rogan?

  It, it, that has to be your voice.

• 2:57:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I, I read the book and then we'll see what happens as far as TV and stuff like that goes.

• 2:57:17Joe Rogan?

  Someone's gonna wanna do something, sure.

• 2:57:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did, uh, I've been on, I've, again, the tactical stuff. I've been in armor on, on, uh, on movie sets in Tennessee and, uh, I actually did a cameo. I got one, I, in the movie world, I have one kill under my belt.

• 2:57:31Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 2:57:32Speaker 03

  But that's it, man. I'm just, uh, trying to pay it forward, still trying to learn, still trying to do good things.

• 2:57:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, best of luck with this. I know something good's gonna come out of this, cause it's, the story's incredible.

• 2:57:42Speaker 03

  Thank you very much.

• 2:57:43Joe Rogan?

  Thank you, thanks, brother, thanks for being here. All right. Bye, everybody.