The Wrong (and Right) Way to Apologize

Cory Asbury joins me for an honest conversation about taking ownership, putting your ego aside, and learning to apologize without making excuses. We talk about why being right isn't always worth it, how to respond when someone tells you that you've hurt them, and why taking responsibility is one of the most powerful things you can do in any relationship. Whether it's with your spouse, your kids, or someone you've hurt, this conversation is a reminder that real growth starts when you're willing to own your mistakes and make things right. Join me this Saturday, October 10th, for a free live class where I'll have some big announcements! https://start.saidwell.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Tiny Health: Go to https://tinyhealth.com/jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test kit. Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey everybody, on October 10th, this Saturday at noon, I'm gonna be teaching a free live class where I'm announcing my first ever communication course and I'm gonna teach my first free class right then and there. I hope to see you there. You can go to start.sedwell, that's the word said and the word well together, dot com. I'm gonna put the link down below. Hope to see you there. Enjoy the episode. You had a very public conflict between you and another Christian artist, Forrest Frank, that affected a lot of people. Can you tell me what really happened between you and Forrest?

• 0:37Speaker 00

  What have you had to unlearn about how you and your wife communicate?

• 0:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro, our first year of marriage was tough.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  We weren't sure we were gonna make it kinda thing, man. It was crazy. And I think I came in, we're so selfish and I think we don't realize that until we get married, we think, oh, I'm humble, I'm so selfless. And then you get married and you're like, wait a sec, I have so much to learn. So immediately, it was a death to self in the most beautiful way. You know, you have to kind of lose your ego and your self-preservation, almost your self-preference and go, I need to prefer this person now. I have to put them first every single time. And you know, when I, when we would get into an argument, which we got into many arguments that first year, I mean, it was

• 1:30Speaker 01

  pretty much all arguments. Again, because mostly me, I was such a selfish piece of garbage, you know, just so self-centered and self-focused. But when we would get into an arguments, I was bent on winning. I wanted to win the argument because that's what you do, right?

• 1:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  You're a man, you know?

• 1:50Speaker 00

  This is what we do.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  That's what we do. And I realized, you know, through the, through the tutelage of a wise leader at that point, it's not about winning an argument, it's about winning their heart every time. And so I set out to go, I don't have to win. In fact, it's better to admit that I was wrong immediately, find what I can own, right? And go, dude, I screwed this up, babe, I'm so sorry. That's my fault. And be the first to apologize? That was everything in those, in those first really two years. That was huge. But it's just been a, a slow progression of death to self for 20 years. Just learning to prefer someone else.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  And we're in year, what, 19?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, going on 20.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  How do you communicate differently now versus?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  So much more gently. I grew up with a dad who was a screamer and a yeller and a cusser and our family was intense. We would just hash it out, we'd go after it. Like, that was normal in our family.

• 2:49Speaker 00

  Everyday battle.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Oh, everyday. That was so normal and unhealthy. Don't get me wrong. Unhealthy in a lot of ways. But my wife came from the exact opposite. Her parents never fought. Were they unhealthy and toxic? Absolutely, 100%. But they didn't show it to the family. So she never saw that. So she just thought, oh, my parents are perfect. They never fight because they were hiding everything. So then all of a sudden, we're getting into verbal altercations and it's like, she's freaking out going, something's so wrong. And I'm sitting there going, no, this is, this is normal. You know, like this is-

• 3:25Speaker 00

  You think this is an argument?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, no, this is, we're chilling right now.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  This isn't yelling.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I've had to learn gentleness, tenderness, because it's not my nature. That's not normal for me. I'm like, let's, let's fight.

• 3:40Speaker 00

  How did you get to that mindset of, see, I hear you going, I had to come to her, rather than demanding, where I think some spouses do say, they gotta come to me. In other words, what would it look like if you had said, I need you to start getting more aggressive, you to start yelling more, because that's what I want, you know? You had a different mentality.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Great question. And I think, to be honest with you, the first, maybe five, maybe even more years were that. Me asking her to meet me where I was at, again, because I'm selfish, I'm self-centered, instead of thinking, I need to come to her level, and that's not to condescend to her level, but that's to bow low, even maybe in humility and meet her where she's at. But the first few years, bro, were intense. And I was trying to get her, hey, let's hash this thing out, like, let's go. And she's sitting there going, that's not how I operate.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Yes. There is a line that I, I'll never fail to repeat on any podcast, because it's something I try to live by every day. And that is, the, one of the best pieces of advice I got on marriage is when you prioritize the other person's comfort over your convenience. And man,

• 4:50Speaker 01

  That's fact.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Let me tell you what, that has been every time where I have that impulse to be selfish.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  Because that's, that's human. That's sinful nature. It's instinct, right? To let me do what this is about me. To where you kinda have to let your, your grip off of that and go, no, how can I find ways to, I'm gonna put myself, I'm gonna inconvenience myself for her, for her comfort. And I think that's been something that, it's certainly been helpful in my life. And also, kids don't make things easier. You got five of them.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Five of them, bro. Yeah, I mean, it definitely becomes more complex, right?

• 5:34Speaker 00

  I'm gonna ask you and a question. How does, how has kids, how does, how has five kids, or just, how has kids affected how you and your wife communicate?

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Man.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  That's the answer right there.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Dude, I mean, it has to be so much more intentional, right? Because your time and your margins get thinner. You know, we've got five kids. I got one who's 16 years old, so he's already got practice, games, all these-

• 6:01Speaker 00

  That sounds terrifying.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Oh, brother, the school schedule's wild, just in and of itself. So finding, and then we've all, we've got all the way down to 18 months, which is a constant, you know, she's constantly needing, mostly my wife, honestly.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  But intentionality and, you know, it sounds really cheesy, but like carving out time even on like a calendar, like where we know, hey, we're having an intentional conversation about everything. This might be, hey, we're sitting down to talk about all things practical school, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, all the kids' stuff that's going on. But then we're also sitting down, you know, for a date night or for a post-kids bedtime to go, hey, how's, how are our hearts? How are we feeling? How are we doing? It sounds cheesy that you would have to do that. But if you don't, it just falls through the cracks.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  It's a requirement.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you find yourself, you know, in 20 years, when all the kids are graduated, going like, okay, I've lived with this person who we've done life together, but like, do we still connect and love each other, you know?

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Right. I know there's another human in the house.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It's like, what the heck? But definitely being intentional, I think, will keep you in that place of like, no, no, no, this is the person that I love, who I'm married, who I am passionate about, not just like a partner.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. Does, that's so good. How do you, this is a, a personal question for me, is how do you maintain with the level of creative space that you have to have for songwriting, for maybe it's touring or whatever, there has to be some amount of space where you go, I need to be able to have a creative outlet of what you do, especially with music. How do you balance the, what you need professionally with how you live personally? Because kids, faith, spouse,

• 8:05Speaker 00

  they all take priority. How have you managed, what's been your secret?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Dude, that has been an ongoing, I won't say struggle or even battle, that's been an ongoing thing in our lives.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  It can be a struggle and be a good one.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's true. I'm fine with that. I like that. It's, it's been an ongoing struggle and a good one, to figure out, you know, she's been a quote unquote, stay-at-home mom for so many years, right? And so the, the power struggle between, is what you do more important or is what I do more important? And there's always this like, well, you get to go out type of language from her. And I'm kinda going, I wish that I didn't have to go out sometimes. I wish I could just be home with the kids. And I'd gladly, you know, daddy daycare thing this, like, I would gladly do that and switch and let you go do art or music or whatever. But

• 9:00Speaker 01

  we've kind of constantly wrestled and found the tension between, okay, you know, I'm home a lot because I'm, I'm writing or I'm in a creative space and I do that a lot from home. So when I co-write with people, a lot of times they come to the house, you know? And so, or, or I'm like, I'm writing, I'm journaling, or I'm, I'm getting thoughts out creatively to like, kind of farm for songs, right? But I'm home and I'm in the house. And so it's like, we'll, we'll have this battle, like, well, you're home, but are you home?

• 9:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, just because you're here doesn't mean you're present.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Exactly. Are you on with the kids? Are you not? And that's been a wrestle as well, you know, trying to figure out how sacred is that, you know, home time when you're supposedly working? It's just, it's a really tough tension to, I think, to navigate really. And I'm not saying that we're doing it perfectly. But we've, I've had to go, okay, babe, let's just say practically that Monday through Thursday, 10 to 3:00 or 10 to 4:00, I might be home, but I am working,

• 10:20Speaker 01

  even though it doesn't look like I'm working. I'm upstairs writing like a script for a movie or I'm, I'm, you know, upstairs, I'm working on a song, whatever it is. And the kids might think I'm home, but I need you to help me protect that space and know that I'm not home, even though I'm home. But that's, it's so weird.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Because you want to be home physically.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and I even wanna be present for the kids in that time, but I find if I'm not focused in those creative moments, I'm not productive. So that's been an ongoing struggle for sure. Okay, like, how do we navigate this? Do I need to find a space and go rent it? So when I'm gone, I'm gone. That would be more clear and that would be easier, you know? But we're, we're still trying to work through that for sure. After 20 years, bro, which is crazy.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, it sounds like, and I've certainly found it to be true, is-

• 11:18Speaker 00

  There's no right path to figuring out that balance. The only right path is to talk about it.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  And if you're not naming it, if you're not saying, hey, let's have a conversation about it, even if it's to... Even the conversation to say, hey, I know we don't have this figured out, but voicing it rather than just assuming that, well, you're just doing your role and I'm doing my role and this is what happens. That's going to breed resentment. But if we're at least talking about the fact that this is not... I know this is not what I want to do all the time. And letting her hear that and for her to be able to voice whatever she needs to voice. I find that that makes a big difference rather than just...

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Thinking that everyone gets it.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Not like, let's communicate about it.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  I think that's great.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  Let's say it out loud.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  How have you as a dad, you have five kids, you now have a 16-year-old boy?

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, my only boy.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  Only boy?

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Only boy.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  Gosh, man.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  That is wild.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 12:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, mine are eight and six.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  And I'm in no rush for him to be 16. That terrifies me. How have you learned to not just communicate with your kids? I want to specifically hone in on something and that is, how important is it for your kids to see you model repair? With both your spouse and for them?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Incredibly important. Something I never saw in my home growing up. And that was really difficult for me. What I've seen bear the most fruit, and I really do think I believe that, the most fruit in our family is my kids seeing me repent to either my wife or to them for ways that I've missed it.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  I never saw that modeled. You know, with my dad, there was a real air of arrogance. I'm never wrong. I got it right. I may have just screamed and yelled and cussed you into the ground, but you deserved that.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  Did he apologize?

• 13:25Speaker 01

  No, not until much later in my life. Probably, you know, I'm 40 years old now, probably early 30s. Before we really, and I had to bring it up. You know, hey dad, these moments, they really, really hurt.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  And he wept and repented. But never in those moments as a kid did it happen. But man, when, you know, my son's 16, when I go too hard on him, because that tends to be my thing. That's my tendency, you know? Don't cry if you spilled milk. I'm the guy who's getting pissed off.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  When he accidentally spills the milk.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  And I find myself going, oh my gosh, this is exactly like my dad. Like what the heck?

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, that hurts.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  And I have to come back, humble myself after looking like an idiot. He knows that I went way too far. Shouldn't have said the things that I've said. And I could just be like, you know what, buddy? You deserve that. Quit screwing up and I'll quit yelling at you kind of thing.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  But coming back and going, buddy, I'm so sorry. That was not right. That was not cool. I don't want to act like that. That's not a representation of who I want to be and who God's called me to be. And I'm really sorry. And he, you know, he might reciprocate or he might, I mean, he might receive that as a 16-year-old and be like, oh, you know? Or he might be like, you know what, dad, thank you. Like, I forgive you.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  That kind of thing. But to go low in humility before your family as a dad, I think speaks so, so loudly and just shows, I don't always have it right. And it's okay. You guys aren't always going to have it right. And that's okay.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  That's beautiful. When you miss it, just own it. Repent, apologize and move on. God forgives us. We forgive each other. And there's no junk left there where in 30 years you're going to need therapy.

• 15:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  You know, like, or maybe there is, but hopefully not, right? Like, that's the goal. Like, that's been the most fruitful thing in our, in our family is honestly me. Not, Anna too, my wife too.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  But when they see the dad who's supposed to be the big dog, you know?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  With tears in his eyes go, buddy, I'm sorry, man. I was so harsh on you earlier. I shouldn't have done that. Like that, that's moved them more than anything, really.

• 15:52Speaker 00

  Dude, that's awesome.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  I hope that every dad in the world hears that. Because I imagine, I have to imagine that your life would have looked different. Your childhood would have looked different had your dad modeled the very things that... Like, you're breaking some generational trauma.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  By choosing to, and I like that you even used the word repent because in many ways that's, that is what the word means is to... Yeah, and I'll even ask, what does that word repent mean to you?

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, to turn around, to 180 that sucker, you know? To go, I see that this is wrong and I'm turning from that. And I don't want to walk like that. You know, for me, obviously, the blood of Jesus, all those things, right? Like, that's the tradition of faith that I come from. And he models that, you know, for us. And so for me, it's just like completely turn from that thing. And am I probably going to do it again? Yeah, I probably am because I'm human. I'm weak, I'm frail. But it's the intention of the heart to turn and go, no, no, no, I don't, I don't want to do that thing again.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  What I'm hearing from you is, if I could boil that down is first, there's an awareness of, I see where, I first see the path I'm on right now. I see my heading.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Second is a inner desire to say, that's not the goal that I want. That there has to be some type of a choice to say, this is no longer the destination where I want to be. And three, the action words to be able to turn, go the other way or turn and go to a different position. And that to me is also just the foundation of apology. When we come to not only apologizing to your kids, but also apologizing to friends, apologizing to your spouse. It's not just the, hey, sorry I did that.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 00

  It's also the next time, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. Do you find that in your...

• 18:15Speaker 00

  I'm going to say in your profession of singer-songwriter, your albums are awesome. I was listening the other day, it was like, The Problem's Still the Same.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  You know?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  The Promise is the same.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Yes, thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, The Promise is, yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Problems are still the same too.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's prophetic.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  New song, new song coming out.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  The Problem's Still the Same.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  Problem's Still the Same.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, stuff's awesome.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you, bro.

• 18:50Speaker 00

  Here is, I want to move kind of into this area of, how do you as somebody who is looked to, who has a public image, public profile, also very personal, at home, married 19 years, five kids? You have a lot. You have a lot of on you at home. You have a lot on you publicly, professionally. When you wrote in the song Reckless Love came out and you had so much controversy, I would say, and you can tell me if that's not the right word, of just the word reckless.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  How do you defend your position

• 19:33Speaker 00

  without getting defensive?

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Or let me ask it differently. How do you...

• 19:40Speaker 00

  How can you defend your position without compromising?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Sure, sure.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  I think conviction and identity are everything. Conviction is knowing what you believe fully. And for me specifically with that song, I lived that song. You know, I was the piece of garbage that deserved nothing. That was out doing A, B, and C since I was a kid, saying I was following God. And he found me in that place. While I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Like, that was, that was my position. And so I knew and I had lived the reality of that song. Therefore, the conviction of it was inside of me. It was birthed from that place. And then identity, knowing who I am in God, you're unoffendable at that point. And I think maintaining that position in your heart and in your mind, making those two align is the difficult part sometimes. I know in my heart, in my spirit, who I am. I'm a child of God. I'm a son of God. You can't touch me, you know? I'm unoffendable because of that. Say what you need to say. Say what you want to say. It does not hurt me. I know who I am. But getting your head to align with that when you're seeing

• 20:58Speaker 01

  comments about, you know, you fill in, you name the thing, you fill in the blank is like, okay, help me reconcile these two realities. Help me stay in the place locked in. I'm a son of God. I'm untouchable. He loves me, therefore nothing else matters.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Well, I got so many thoughts on that.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, well...

• 21:20Speaker 01

  I don't want to rabbit trail it. But identity is just staying locked into who you know you are for me in Christ.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  So I would see those comments and honestly, most of the time I was unbothered. Most of the time. I think the times that it pissed me off was when it was Joe Blow Baptist pastor from Florida with that in his bio, you know? Talking about saved by grace and then, and then in the comments, what a queer, or how gay is this? Or how soft? That type of language from a professed pastor, a leader of a flock, you know, for case in point, like from South Florida. And you're just like, what? Like, how is that happening?

• 22:14Speaker 01

  And so the flesh would come in and say, what a piece of garbage that guy is. He's not saved. Screw that guy. Destroy him on the internet. Make an example of him. Call him out, you know? Go to town. And I'm super like, like litigatory as well. I like, I know that you're a lawyer. Litigious, yeah. Like, I just want to, I just want to tear someone apart via logic.

• 22:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Just make them look so stupid. And I would have to go, wait a sec.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Well, what is that gonna do for me, especially on the internet? You're not winning anybody on the internet. You're just stooping to their level,

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Condescending to that level and trying to operate in the same spirit. Spirit, you're not gonna get anywhere with that. So, the only thing that I wanted to do in that time when there was controversy over that specific lyric, was explain pastorally my position, where I was coming from, and go, "This is why I said what I said." And then leave it there. I purposely never got into arguments in the comment section, or via DMs, or anything. People would, people still send me like hundreds of messages a day. "God's love is not reckless." And they're dead serious.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  For, I wanna make sure for anybody who does not know, is it, was it just the title, or is there a certain lyric within it? Or is it just?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that, that title, reckless love. And they would say, "You're calling God

• 23:42Speaker 01

  unthinking, basically." You know, reckless, because most people's connotation-

• 23:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, unintentional, careless, those types of things. Because the connotation of the word is negative.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, but that misses the, the point.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Completely, it's poetry.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  It's, it's low IQ, honestly, to miss the point. And I think, I would love to be able to say things like that.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you're not.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  But I'm not going to say that.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can think it, I can think it.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  That's 70 IQ behavior, bro, like.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  But the truth is, again, I just wanted to explain it from my heart. "Hey, this is where I'm coming from." If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you probably haven't experienced it, to be honest with you.

• 24:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  If you're gonna freak out about a word, that to me is very religious. It's very form-driven, it's rules-driven, it's checking boxes, but there's no experience there. Paul talks about in Ephesians 3 that you would know the width, length, depth, and height of the knowledge of, of the love of God that passes knowledge, basically. And when he says, "Understanding," sorry, yeah. When he says "know," he means experientially, that you would experience it, that you would feel it, that it would change you from the inside. And I think, if you've experienced that, you know where He found you. Even if you're like, "Oh, I didn't sin that much." "I wasn't that bad. He didn't really have to do much." You're pretty bad.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  You know, like, and, and He saved you in that place. And I think, when you, when you feel that, when you experience that, all of a sudden, you're like, "Dad gum, I didn't deserve that." That was a pretty reckless use of whatever word you wanna use there. Time, energy, resources, like what He did. What we deserved and what He did are not commensurate. They're not lining up. That is the incongruence of grace. It just doesn't make sense.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Which is why we needed Jesus.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. So, I mean, that's a long way of answering your question, but it was trying to stay rooted in conviction and identity, even when the flesh and the mind is telling me, "Destroy that idiot."

• 25:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, right, right. No, I think some people get kinda stuck on Pharisee thinking.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:00Speaker 00

  You know, they're, they're, they're, they're, um, it's not the, and I feel like multiple times in every parable, Jesus is saying, "Well, hey, that's, you've heard of this? That's not really, that's not really the point."

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Here.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  It's all about that, right there.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  Exactly. It's about, it's about the heart. How do you become unoffendable?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  I mean, I still get offended. The goal is undefendable, right? And, and I've been walking with God for a lot of years. What am I, I'm on 40, and I was 19, really, when I got saved. So, a little over 20 years.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Part of it, for me truly, is my personality. I just don't, I don't have a high regard for what most people think. And I think that's a gift. You know, I don't know if you do like the whole Enneagram thing, but like 8 on the Enneagram, just wanna rip things apart.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  You're an 8?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Just wanna just crush every-

• 26:56Speaker 00

  I'm a 3.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  3 is achiever?

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Something like that.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  Probably.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  So, I think part of it is a, is a superpower that, that God created me with, ever since I was a kid, like. I just wanted to break the molds. I don't care what people say. I don't care what people think. And I care what people I love. If my wife came to me and said, "I think you're an idiot," I'd be like, "What?

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Who you, what?

• 27:26Speaker 00

  That hurts.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  That hurts. But some random guy on the internet saying, "I think you're dumb," or "You look stupid," or "I don't like your haircut," I'm like, "I just couldn't care less." But, again, the unoffendable thing is, is always rooted in identity. I think of Jesus when He's coming off this 40-day fast, right? And He's in the wilderness, and all of a sudden, the devil comes to tempt Him. It's like, "Yo, come up here. I'll show you all these kingdoms." Just like, "Jump off and let God take care of you, and all this is yours."

• 27:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  And He goes, "No, no, no. I know who I am. This is already mine." I don't need to listen to the voice of the accuser." And that's what it is often. It's the voice of the accuser through people.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Um, through the internet, through social media, whatever. But Jesus had full identity. Why? Because He had just had, you know, He has this encounter with the Father where He comes up from, is it being baptized, I think? And, and the dove like alights upon His head, and the voice from heaven, the Father goes, "This is my son, in whom I am well pleased." He's like, "I know exactly who I am. You can't tempt me. The kingdoms, I don't need them." You know, like, "I don't need any of that garbage worship. I don't need it. I'm going to have it." "You can't tempt me. You can't, you can't affect me. I'm so, you know, locked in to who I am and what I'm created to do."

• 28:51Speaker 00

  I like the piece of, of what I hear you saying is, it's knowing who, who has the right to have an opinion of you.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. It's beautifully said, perfectly said. Way better than me.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  No, no, it's great. No, no.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  So concise.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  I'm saying like it, that's what I, that's what I'm hearing.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  I talked for 10 minutes, and he's like, "What I hear you saying is this."

• 29:18Speaker 00

  That's, that's, that's my-

• 29:20Speaker 01

  That's good, that's your good, bro.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  Are you, do you have, or, I only know on Enneagram, do you have a wing? They said like-

• 29:25Speaker 01

  So, I don't. Like, when I take the test, it says 8. And everyone's always like, "Well, what's your wing?" I'm like, "I don't, I don't know."

• 29:33Speaker 00

  I'm wingless.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  It's just like, all there.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  All gas.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, all gas.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  That's what it is, yeah.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  All anger and passion.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  Exactly. They say I'm a 3 with a 2 wing.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, my wife is a 2.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, mine's, it's, it says, if a 3 with a 2 wing, it says I'm a charmer.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Bro.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  And that sounds off. That sounds way off to me.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  That's facts.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  That doesn't sound right. That doesn't sound right.

• 29:57Speaker 00

  No, but I, I think that is, um, I think that's right there in alignment of, who, who, who do I say has a right to have an opinion of me? Sure, they can have one, but that, that doesn't mean I've given you permission to-

• 30:10Speaker 01

  That's so good.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  To-

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Bro, we could have that boundary.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Like, if everyone on the internet could have that boundary, bro, it would be so much healthier. So much healthier.

• 30:20Speaker 00

  One of many.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  It's a tough boundary to have.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  One of many. I got a whole list. I got a whole list for the internet.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  That's good, bro.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Uh, but no, I, I can see how, um, just the, here you are, having something that is, which you feel is spirit-led, God-breathed, that you're able to put something out, and that kinda level of controversy come out of it, and you were like, "What?"

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  I had to have been, that had to have been really hard to not get really defensive.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  And by you just saying, "Hey, look, I'm just going to explain where my heart is."

• 30:57Speaker 01

  One time.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  "Take what you like and leave the rest." That's that kinda mentality. But that also has to like, that has to mess with your head, too.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  It's weird, like, I didn't realize

• 31:10Speaker 01

  how ubiquitous the conversation was. Is God reckless? Is He not? Like, I didn't realize how intense of a quote-unquote controversy it was. I think mostly because I wasn't paying attention to it. Like, my focus was just like, "Do what I'm supposed to do." It wasn't literally till years later, like, maybe a year ago, that I went, "Oh, people actually have really strong polarizing opinions on this." And a lot of people still, to this day, think that I am heretical, or a messenger from Satan, or, you know, like, these silly, silly things. I didn't take them seriously at that time.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  And it wasn't until very recently that I kind of realized, "Oh, this is still hotly debated." Like, people still have-

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Passion and sometimes aggression over this and it almost like it almost sullied the the experience and the song for me for a moment where I went, wait a sec like this is, this is crazy. Like this is intense. And what's wild is the whole time it's still like, you know, for a, for a long time, for a number of years, it was the most sung song in the global church, which is wild.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Wild.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Wild. I think for like two or three years.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  And

• 32:40Speaker 00

  That's incredible.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Since then, you know, maybe now it's like the top 15 or something, most sung song. But I think I look at that and I go, how is it possible? Is it the vocal minority?

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  That's, that's out there kind of still having these arguments that, that people will show me and bring to me.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Or i- is it like, it doesn't make sense to me because it's still so sung. Like it's still so used and utilized and the stories that I hear are so positive and, and you know, I thought about taking my life, then I heard this song and I realized I was worth something.

• 33:21Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  And I, I wanted to give my life to Jesus. Those types of stories, like those are a lot. I, I hear that a lot. Or this changed my life. I heard this for the first time when I got saved. I went to youth camp and I, and they played this song and I got saved. I felt the love of God for the first time. So I really don't even know how to reconcile, you know, the, the quote unquote controversy with, uh, with the gift that it is, you know, I, I don't even, it doesn't make sense to me. I just kind of go, God, you do what you do. And if people want to talk about it, they can talk about it, but

• 33:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  I'm grateful.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I, to me, it's, it's God saying, hey, you just, you write what I'm putting through you and then I'll take care of.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  I'll take care of what I'm supposed to take care of. And the good thing about what we teach is arguments are cool. If you have a different opinion on something, it's about, it's about the conversation.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  It's a, it's a chance to at least practice the, if you have a different opinion on it, cool. I want you to, why don't you tell me? I hear it. Got it?

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  Comes from

• 34:25Speaker 01

  We might agree or we might not.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  We might, we might not. I don't know. You never know.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Tiny Health. You know that for you and your family, it's important of what you eat. But did you know that it's not just what you eat, it's also how those foods interact with your body? Um, how are they happening and dealing with in your gut? Well, Tiny Health is an at-home gut health test. And so we've done it with our own children. That was incredible. So we were able to take this test, send off the results, and you get back a very custom, um, analysis, really, of what the gut shows, what things were aggravating or things were inflaming things, what, what was good for the gut, what, what happened with our kids of what are they eating, not just at the nutritional level, but also in

• 35:15Speaker 00

  the, in the micro level of what's happening. And so it was very informative, very helpful. If you know, not only for yourself, but for your other, your kids or people in your world, that this is something they need to look at and they're having gut health problems, look no further than Tiny Health. Right now, they're offering their most aggressive offer of $50 off your first at-home kit. If you go to tinyhealth.com/jefferson, you'll get up to $50 off your first at-home gut health kit. It was helpful for us. I know it'll be helpful for you. And now let's keep going. I want to switch for a little bit too of

• 35:52Speaker 00

  public, not even public, but the aspect of thinking one thing and needing to turn and how conversations can create a shift in, a total different shift in your life. And specifically, the, what I understand to be a very kind of public disagreement that happened.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Between you and another artist.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  His name's Forrest Frank.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Forrest Frank.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  Uh, I don't know Forrest personally.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  Um, and I'm, I am, I would love for my listeners to hear kind of this story.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Because it's, it would be a disservice for me to tell it. And then I want to piece apart, you know, a, a little bit of the, I think are some really deep, meaningful lessons.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  To be said in, uh, ownership and, uh, apology and new direction and allowing hard conversations to turn into something really beautiful.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. So I found myself rather jaded, cynical, a bit disenfranchised from the church.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  What year is this?

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Year and a half ago.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Um, so whatever year that is, I'm bad at math.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  Who knows?

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, who, who really knows? Somewhere in the 20th century, I think.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  Didn't we just get out of COVID? Yeah, it's like that.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Somewhere around there. Um, yeah, it just, seeing everything I saw, um,

• 37:30Speaker 01

  yeah, I just, I just found myself frustrated, I think. And, and my answer to frustration of that sort is to be very public and very vocal about it. I'm not the guy who's gonna like, you know, sit with it quietly because I want to fix everything. Like that's my personality. I want to, I want to rend everything to the ground and then try to build it back up properly. And so I found myself, uh, I'm a very like sarcastic, biting type of personality naturally, and I'm learning to be more gentle, like we talked about earlier. But a lot of like satire, because I find the quickest way to make your point is not often to have a two-hour podcast.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  But if you can do

• 38:17Speaker 00

  Agreed.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  You, you get what I'm saying? Like

• 38:19Speaker 00

  We'll make this podcast wishword again.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Clip it up, clip it up.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Clip farm this sucker.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Um, you can do it in 30 seconds by poking fun at something. You can make a really big point, often by implication, just by satirically, or is that the word? Sad, deep satire, poking fun at something. And that was kind of my MO. Like I see all the things that are wrong. I can diagnose all the fault lines and all the things that are kind of screwed up. And I don't necessarily have time to talk about them all long form, but I do have time to make a funny video, kind of poking, poking fun at what I see is wrong. And often with feeling very mean spirited because

• 39:06Speaker 01

  I was angry, like I was very frustrated. So I'm doing a lot of that with regards to the church, with regards to the worship industry, with regards to, uh, the business of, of worship, because all those things were frustrating me.

• 39:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  And, uh, I see Forrest having this kind of thing happening where he breaks his back, the whole deal. He's got cameras everywhere. And I'm like, how does bro have a camera in every freaking room of his house and like outside? He's got cameras outside.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  This is a video that he put out.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a video that he put out, breaking his back and then he writes a song.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  Forrest's also being another Christian artist.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yes, correct. Correct. Very prominent, uh, figure in the, in the Christian music world right now. So he breaks his back like on camera and then is able to leverage that into a song, which is like viral. It's going big. And then what happens is a lot of people are kind of piggybacking and making fun.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  What song was it?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Uh, God's Got My Back.

• 40:05Speaker 00

  Okay. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Um, good song. Catchy. Probably be stuck on your head after this.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  They're all catchy. They're all catchy.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  That dirty dog.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that song goes nuts, but then everyone's kind of piling on like, I broke my leg, so I wrote, you know, Crowder, David Crowder writes the song, I broke my leg, so like Todd's got my leg. I don't remember what the song was. This band, The Figs, uh, is kind of dunking on Forrest and makes this song about lemonade.

• 40:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  And then Forrest, my kid's favorite song. Oh dude, it's, it's huge. They did, that was like the last song that we'd play on the road and it just went nuts every night. So that happens and truly those guys were kind of poking fun at Forrest.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  But Forrest goes, hey, let's do something together, like make, let's make lemons out of lemonade through this thing. And all of a sudden I have the bright idea that I'm gonna jump on as well. And I had just gotten a vasectomy. I got five kids.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Just gotten a vasectomy like two.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  It is about that.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  You're exactly right.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  My wife, my wife had to make the appointment.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  I got a good story on that later, but so I get a vasectomy. It's like two, three weeks before. So I've got like footage for me on the table, you know, like I'm an idiot. I'm just an idiot. And I have this bright idea, like my injury to, to piggyback on Forrest's thing will be.

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Uh, me getting a vasectomy, that's my injury. And so I make this song. And you know what's funny? Like I told someone this a couple of weeks ago, I had like crazy energy on this song. Like I was getting bars, like I was coming up with lines and lyrics that I just couldn't even fathom. Like the Holy Spirit was breathing on it. I'm dead serious, like in the funniest way, like I really feel like, oh, that's why I had such impetus to write this song, cause God was gonna do so much through it.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Like it's weird to think in retrospect, like that's, but I felt that in the moment. So I'm sitting there writing this vasectomy rap, which I don't rap and.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Talking about a subject most people don't write about.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  No, they don't write about, I got so much flack for it in the best way. And I learned so much through it. So I post the song, or actually I have a team, uh, two guys who, who run my social media for me at that time. I have a different team at this point, but I, um, my son's game, it's his first football game of the season. It was in like Knoxville or something. And I actually get on a plane with a couple of buddies, um, who happened to have a plane whose son is the quarterback of the team right now. And I turn my phone on airplane mode because we're flying, there's no wifi or anything. But they post it right before I leave and they're like, all right, hey, it's up. And I'm like, okay, sick.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  And they're like, bro, this is gonna do numbers, like it's, it's gonna go viral. And I was like, whatever. They post it. I, uh, I land, I forget to turn it off airplane mode. We have to go straight to the game. I'm not paying attention to anything. I'm so locked in. So we get back and, uh, we land, it's like 1:00 AM. We posted it like maybe 4:00 PM or something. I take, I finally take my plane, my, my phone off airplane mode and it's just going nuts. Like, and I don't, I know, like, I don't keep Instagram notifications, but like all my texts.

• 43:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Are like, bro, what have you done? Like this is so insane, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can't believe you would post that. Good and bad. Some people are like, bro, this is the funniest thing I've ever seen.

• 43:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  And then some people are like, bro, I don't think you meant for it to do this.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  What it's doing.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  It's got like two million views in like four hours. And what I, what my team says to me is, hey, like everyone in the comments thinks you're being like vitriolic. Like they think you're being really malicious and mean. Like you're just dunking on Forrest because you think he's an idiot. And like you're, you're, you're being really mean hearted. Like that's what everyone thinks.

• 44:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  And they're all piling on in the comments. Yeah, we can't believe that he would leverage, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 44:08Speaker 00

  And now you're almost responsible for this frenzy of more.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  In this whole thing, you know?

• 44:12Speaker 00

  People truly being mean.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Truly.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Like they're, all the angry people came out of the woodwork.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Invited to conduit. Calling all mean people.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  All the platform, bro. And they were going off in the comments and I was like, oh geez. So I text Forrest on the way home and I was like, bro, I didn't mean for it to do this. Like truly I was poking fun at you, obviously, but I did not mean for this to be like a, a whack Forrest kind of vibe, like that's not what I was getting at. I'm really sorry for that. Like say the word and I'm taking it down. And so I wake up the next morning, it's like 10:00 AM or something. I sleep in. Um, and I get a text from him and it's a long text. And he's like, dude, actually that really hurt my feelings.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Like my family and I didn't know if I was ever gonna walk again. Like my kids would cry, thinking daddy is like, you know.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  Like.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Paralyzed.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Traumatic.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's super traumatic. And my wife's crying every day going, am I gonna have to like, you know, am I raising my kids with my husband in a wheelchair now? This is intense, I'm having to deal with that. So he's like, it was not a light thing in our family. Like you guys in the world might be taking it with a lot of levity, but it was, there was none of that for us. And he's like, that really hurt. And immediately I was like, man, I respect that.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  What did you respect?

• 45:40Speaker 01

  The fact that he was honest.

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  And said, that hurt. Cause as a man.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Those aren't popular words, you know?

• 45:48Speaker 00

  That hurt.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  That hurt.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  No one wants to say that hurt because that's vulnerable.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  That's, that can be perceived as weak.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Or soft, or, or all these things that we as men don't wanna be, we wanna be hard and impervious and tough. And nothing hurts me, nothing touches me. And man, like that took some guts to say, that hurt. That hurt my heart, that hurt my feelings. So I, immediately I was like, I'm in, I'm in on this guy. And I knew him before and we kind of, you know, he was kind of saying, I don't know Cory. We had talked, he'd come out to a show, mine in Waco, like we hung, we had FaceTime. We talked about the year that I took off because he was considering doing the same. We weren't best friends.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  But we were absolutely, we were butts, um, just not super close. So I'm just like, I'm all in on this dude. Like that, that took so much guts.

• 46:43Speaker 00

  Now, I wanna make sure that this is like a point. So you, you hear from him.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  Of, hey, actually, man, this, this did hurt me.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  Instead of coming after you, said, yeah, this hurts. But this is a, this is a critical like point for you, cause you have options to make.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:59Speaker 00

  That is, you could double down and say, well, sorry about it.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Don't be such a pansy.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, look how many views it's done. Yeah, or something so, or, or.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Can you imagine?

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Sorry, man.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  It's getting a lot of views, bro.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's printing views right now. I'm gonna let it roll.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Doing numbers, bro.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  I'll take it down in a few weeks.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Or what, what you ended up doing.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and the interesting, interesting thing to me is I had literally had a very, very, very similar circumstance about a month before, where something I said on the internet, cause again, I'm, I'm very prickly. I'm just, that, that's how I've been. And I don't wanna say, oh, that's who I am, so deal with it. That's not my point.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  But I'm naturally a bit of a ruffler of feathers. So I had this moment on the internet where I'd said something about a different artist who happens to be the most popular Christian artist there is. And, uh, his wife, someone else reposted it. And that person, this artist's wife goes off in this other person, this is a girl that posted my thing reposted. That's so confusing. Oh my God.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's good.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  So his wife responds to this person in their DMs, long DM. I can't believe Cory would say those things. My husband wakes up every day hurt by him. He looks up to him so much. I can't believe that he would do all this type of thing, blah, blah, blah.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Long DM. It happens to be my front of house, his, his wife's best friend. So he sent, front of house, like guy who runs down for me, sends me the DM. Like, is there history here I need to know about? And I'm like, bro, no, like this is crazy. What? So I immediately reach out to this person and I'm like, dog. I am so sorry for any offense that I may have caused. I truly am not aware of what it was that I have done. I, I, but I want to apologize. I wanna repent. I wanna make it right. Please let me know and we can talk through this. Like I'm big on, on communication. Like I'm big on getting it all out there.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Cause that's the only way we get healing. That's the only way we move forward.

• 49:18Speaker 00

  Also, you're really not afraid to say it.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. And I think what happened is this other person's personality is a bit more reserved.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  A bit more passive. They're not a hash or outer. They're not.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  Not their type.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Not their type. So instead of saying, yeah, man, even via texts, yeah, man, I have been a little bothered by some stuff that you've said or posted. And she probably went a little too far, but like I have felt that. Goes, my wife is crazy. I don't know why she said those things. She's been a little off lately, but I don't feel that way at all. Love you dude, love you, bro.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  And I'm like, what?

• 50:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Like what? This is this long of a DM to a random person. That's how passionately you felt about it to send it, but you're gonna dismiss it like it never, like it's not a thing.

• 50:13Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  And so I was just like, that's, that's really crappy to me.

• 50:19Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  And so I'm like, I don't really wanna like associate with that person.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Like I don't mess with that type of behavior. So Forrest does the exact opposite. The exact opposite spirit, the exact opposite heart goes low in humility, full vulnerability, full transparency. That hurt.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  That won me immediately. I was just like, dude is real. Like bro's a real one, like he's not messing around. And so he goes, yes, it hurt. Don't take it down though. I'll call you in a few minutes. It's all right. He calls and he goes, hey, thank you for reaching out. Like I forgive you. I get it. I get what you're doing.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Everyone else is doing it. Does it hurt? Yes.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  It does. He goes, but I think there's an opportunity, number one, for healing here.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  But number two, for this to be displayed on a public level that actually brings about the same level of healing that you and I are going to experience through this. And I was like, what? Like dang, that's crazy. And he goes, what you don't know is, nah, I don't even need to say that. I was just like, dude, that's, that's incredible. Tell me what you got in mind. And he's like, you make a video, basically saying like, hey dude, I'm sorry.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll make a video first that's like, hey, this kind of, this kind of hurt, bro. But we'll work it out in real time, but for the public and the internet to see.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  And he's truly like one of the most brilliant.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Social media minds that I've ever met, ever. Like, that's fully his, his superpower. And the level of, um,

• 52:19Speaker 01

  healing and restoration that I saw through that whole exchange on the internet was wild. I had people coming up to me everywhere I went. Dude, I saw what happened with you and Forrest. It so touched my heart, I called my pastor. I called my mom, I called my cousin who I was offended by. I called my old worship leader who, you know, fired me from the platform. And told them that it hurt and we worked through it.

• 52:45Speaker 00

  How that got used?

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  To, to bring healing?

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  Not just to you two?

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 00

  But to thousands of people you had, you, you can never, ever meet?

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Can't quantify it. Like, it was, it was crazy. Everywhere I went, random people. Bro, I saw that exchange, man. That meant so much to me. I decided to go and talk to blah, blah, blah. And we worked it out. I was just like, what? That's crazy. It was, it was really wild. Um, yeah, so I, I don't know. Like, I don't know if there's more I need to, to say on all that, but like, that's the way it went down. It was very real. How it happened. He was hurt. I was being a tool, like, you know, honestly, full transparency. I was being a jerk.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  And also, like, a, a tool to get something, like, yeah, without you knowing it. Actually, a tool for a lot of good.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  God uses even the wildest of donkeys.

• 53:39Speaker 00

  And then you'll put a, then you'll put out a song.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. I mean, the fruit from it is...

• 53:46Speaker 00

  What was the name of the song?

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Uh, it's called misunderstood.

• 53:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  And

• 53:53Speaker 01

  I ended up going out there to say, he was living in San Diego at the time. And I went out there for, I think, like, eight or nine days. And we just hung out. We just surfed in the morning. Hung out all day. And, uh, the healing that the Lord did in my heart in that nine days

• 54:17Speaker 01

  would be impossible to communicate if I had years, I think. Like, I was so frustrated and so jaded and so pissed off at everything and, uh,

• 54:30Speaker 01

  the Lord used Forrest to soften my heart. And to bring me back to what I'm really made and called to do, which is be a worshiper. You know, I was running from all that. And I think of it like, like Hagar in the Bible and she, you know, she was running, she was halfway back to Egypt, if you know the story. She'd been mistreated. And she goes, I'm not down with this. I'm leaving. And halfway back to Egypt, God finds her and says, I'm the God who sees. I saw all that. I saw that you were mistreated through the reckless love thing. I saw that you were mistreated through this and that. And people had so much to say about, you know, I'm obviously applying it to my own life now. I saw it.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  But he doesn't go, and here's a pass. Yeah, just keep going to Egypt. Forget all that you're called to do. Forget your job. Forget your calling. You know, just, just run back to your safety and your comfort. He goes, no, I saw it all. And guess what? Go back to your abusers.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Go back to that family. Birth the child. Do what you're supposed to do. Because that's what I've called you to do. Were you offended? Were you hurt? Were you wronged? Absolutely, a thousand percent. That's real. Everything that you experienced was real. And I saw it. I'm not dismissing it, but I'm also not giving you a pass. Go back. And that's what he said to me. Go back. You have an inheritance there, in that, in that sphere of influence that I created you for. And put away the offense. Get back to that unoffendable heart and space, you know? Um, and it was because of Forrest's humility, transparency, his purity.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  The way that he operates in that space is just, it's really beautiful. Um, so I could, I could talk about that for a long time, but let's just let that be enough.

• 56:19Speaker 00

  That's awesome stuff. And so now, to bring that full circle, you know, you went from heading in a direction that, like you said, felt jaded.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  Um, and through this experience, you've now said, hey, I'm gonna feel like I'm coming back. Back to the table, where I, I know this is, this has been my place.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  For me. So I, to me, there's like so many beautiful things uh, through this, if not just the, the reality.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I'm waiting for you to give me like the 10 second.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. This is where, what I hear you saying is...

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  Before we continue, I want to take a moment to tell you about, you know what, Cozy Earth. Right now, we are in the season of fall here. You can feel the temperatures coming. Maybe temperatures are dropping where you are. I hope so. And it to me, if it's even 10 degrees cooler, that means it's what? Sweater weather, baby. That means I'm busting out my hoodie. I'm, I'm busting out a sweatshirt. I want to be comfy and cozy and comfortable. So if you are looking for top of the line, premium, best you've ever felt sweatshirts and hoodies, listen to me, look no further than Cozy Earth. They're incredible. I wear them all the time, especially in airports when it's freezing. Um, or anywhere the doctor's office or wherever you're, you're going.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  Cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson to get up to 25% off. Cozyearth.com/jefferson. And now, let's keep going.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  Through this experience,

• 57:51Speaker 00

  what have you learned about how to respond when you're in the wrong?

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Humility is always the answer. Every time. Humility wins your brother or your sister. Every time. Arrogance puffs up and pride and, and God says, I resist the proud. But I give grace to the humble.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Willingness to admit you're wrong takes so much humility. You know, especially for a guy like me who, I just want to win. That is so much of my, my drive because of the way that I was brought up. I always felt like I was less than.

• 58:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  My dad was, you know, you're pathetic, you're this, you're that. A lot of, you know, that type of talk in the house. Not a lot of, I'm proud of you, I love you. So I've got this, this sort of fleshly, insatiable drive to win. To be able to say, I dominated that.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  It flies in the face of our flesh to go, hey, man, that was really wrong of me to do. To lower yourself, to come under and, and, uh, admit that you are wrong. It takes so much, um, humility. But it is the path forward. It's always the path forward. That's the way of Jesus. Winning is never the point.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  I mean, if he wanted to win, he'd have called down some angels and he'd have flown off the cross and gave everyone the finger.

• 59:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  You know, sorry, he'd have flown off the cross and, you know,

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Told everyone to, this is what's up.

• 59:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Um, but he didn't. His way of winning was death.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  Death on a cross. He conquered death. And that is always the answer, I think, in any, in any conflict. Own what you can own. Don't make crap up.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  You know, don't be like, oh, well, I'll pretend like I was wrong for this and that. Search your heart. Ask God to search your heart. Find what you can, what you can own and, and own it. Communicate it.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  You know, that's, that's everything. That wins a brother every time.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  When you are the person that's in the wrong, how do you go from, I could make an excuse?

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  In the balance of, or I could own this fully?

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  And what, what have you, what have you learned between those two?

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  I find that I'm always in the wrong, first of all. It's typically my fault, which I'm fine with. I'm kind of an idiot sometimes. Um, I, I don't know, man. I, I don't know how to...

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  Let me ask it differently. What do you say to yourself when you're tempted to make an excuse?

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  So a lot of the time, I feel like I want to defend myself.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Right? And here in this moment, you could have said a lot of things to defend yourself.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 00

  To, to Forrest or in any other situation, to other friends. Saying, well, he's just being... Like, I, I compare this, the reason why I like this story is because it's a wonderful example of how you do something thinking it's lighthearted and it's really not going to offend the other person. Well, the other person does get offended.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:02Speaker 00

  And thankfully, they're maybe honest enough to go, hey, that hurt.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  And then you're left with that choice of, do you say what a lot of people love to say? And that is, well, that's your problem. Right? They love to say, well, that's, deal with it.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  Then that's, that's, that's your problem. Here, what, through this beautiful lesson, an example, is the power

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  of being able to stop and say...

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  I own my part in this. Uh, I'm gonna take accountability for my part in this.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  And though I could make an excuse, and there are many available to me.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  I'm gonna choose to say, hey, this is my problem too.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think I, I always ask myself the question, why do I feel the need to make an excuse? And to me, the answer is almost always to save face. Self-preservation, to make myself look good. If I don't wanna own this, it's because I don't want either that person to see me as wrong or stupid or, you know, uh, inadequate or whatever. Or I don't want an audience to see me as wrong, inadequate. But I think when you lose ego, or you, you let your ego die. You go, it actually doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It doesn't even matter if that person judges me and thinks, well,

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  they were pretty wrong, like that was pretty stupid of them to be wrong.

• 1:02:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  That doesn't matter, but that, I, I, I'm always asking myself, like, what's the motive? Why am I doing this? Right? And if I'm trying to, to make excuses, I'm going, why am I, why do I wanna make excuses for this? Why wouldn't I just own the fact that I, I did something wrong? And typically, it's because it's gonna make me look dumb. I don't wanna look stupid. I don't wanna look like I lost.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  Uh, I like that one. I don't wanna look like I lost.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  I don't wanna look like I lost this. But, but the truth is, losing is not the end. It's not the end of the story. That's not the end of the, you know, this particular circumstance. Losing led to everything for me.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  And I, I'm very much like an ascetic, A-S-C-E-T-I-C. Pain produces. Pain turns us into what we should be. Suffering creates so much beauty.

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  You need resistance.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  You need resistance. Go out into the woods and, and live alone.

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  And learn to, to live well. Um, comfort often stagnates. Comfort, comfort keeps us from who we really should be, creating character inside of us.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  You know, we're working this, this eternal weight of glory is what the Bible calls it, through trials and tribulations. And this, admitting that we're wrong is just another one of those circumstances where we can go, that was difficult. That was not easy, but I'm the type of guy who wants to hit it head on.

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Like, that's the way I live. I want to hit it head on, and I want to deal with it, because if I don't, it's just, you know, offense and bitterness has the shelf life of a Twinkie.

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  They're never going away until you deal with them.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  So I wanna hit it head on, especially when I'm wrong. I don't, I don't want that person sitting there dealing with my offense because I was unwilling to, to, you know, go low in humility and, and apologize.

• 1:04:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. Man, what you said, I, I, I really love, and that is, I didn't wanna look like I lost.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Speaker 00

  I find that to be so true in arguments that continue to push when somebody's refusing to put it down. Refusing to, to give that point. It's, I, they don't wanna look like they lost. They don't want the perception that they lost. They don't wanna feel like they lost. And if more people, myself included, my goodness, uh, if, Lynn, instead of seeing it as,

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  you know, as something to lose, as something to learn. Then, then you provide space and opportunity for, I mean, your, your world would not be.

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

  Where it is right now, had, had, had you hardened your heart.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  And said, nah, I'm not gonna look like I lost. I took an L on this one.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  I'm gonna, but here you said, instead you said, I did take an L on this one.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  Here is the ways that I can do that. So except, you know, the, what, what would be the, what have you found to be the power of accepting the losses?

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Man, self-acceptance, really.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  I think when, when your goal or when your wiring is only to win, obviously, we don't win every battle, right?

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  We don't want to. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Like, I, I used to think, I would get down on myself. I would beat myself up if I got like a parking ticket. What an idiot. Like, I can't believe I parked there. What, I'm so stupid, man. I lost, you know?

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  I'm gonna fight this.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna go fight this. Like, there's, I, I shouldn't have gotten this ticket. They should understand that I needed to be in and out, blah, blah. You know, it's that type of thinking. But it's all internal for me. It's always, um,

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  my own critic on the inside, because I don't know about you, but I'm my own worst critic, for sure.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  I'm so much harder on myself than, than anyone else. And obviously, I'm so much more well acquainted with my own weakness.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  And, and faults than anyone else.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  Sensitivities, you know?

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  Where I'm, where I'm way more, uh, easy to, to bite the hand.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So, I don't know, man. It's like, when, when I can come to grips and be okay with losing. Or looking like I lost. Honestly, it's all perception for me. Is that person or that group going to think that I look like I lost, like I look dumb?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Then I can just go, you know what, man? I'm living for the first time. Like, this is my first time being alive. I need to give myself some grace.

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  You know, the way that I think about my 16-year-old boy, when I'm in the spirit, meaning when I'm in the good place.

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  I'm not angry, I'm not frustrated. He can't lose. There's nothing he could do that would frustrate me so much that I'd be like, you know what, buddy? Like, you're done. You're not my kid anymore.

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  You know, I don't really love you.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  I don't love you anymore. Can you imagine?

• 1:07:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, no.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Like, that's, that's an insane thought to me. That's so far from reality. But I, I, I'm trying to learn to think of myself the same way and extend myself the same kindness and gentleness and grace, because I'm gonna lose. And I get frustrated and I get anxious about silly things, dumb things. You know, but, but extending myself grace when I'm scared that I can't find a parking spot in downtown Nashville. Because that's the dumb stuff that I get worried about.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  It's also very stressful.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  It is a little stressful.

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's put that out there.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  It is a little stressful. But it's like, you know, if, if I don't get the prime spot, or if I haven't done the, you know, the thinking ahead to, to buy the spot, or to get the parking, or to, to have the right seat.

• 1:08:21Speaker 00

  It's not as easy as I want it to be. Yeah.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  Then I'll be like, I'm beating myself up. But when I can accept that I'm not perfect, that I don't have it all together, that I don't have all the answers, that I'm often wrong.

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  That I often lose, then that's so much better of a place to live, rather than constantly self-flogging. You know, like self-flagellation, like scarlet letter type vibes. It's like, no, I am an idiot. Yet, God shows me grace. Yet, God loves me, calls me his kid. I can think of myself that same way.

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  And I can operate within my own mind and heart, hopefully, that same way.

• 1:09:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. Man, Corey, um, I've really, really enjoyed just hearing your, your heart, man. Definitely given me, uh, a lot to think of and think on in all, all areas of fatherhood and beyond. And, uh, man, thank you so much for being willing to share that story and, uh, have that as an example for all of us and the right way to communicate. Thanks for coming on me.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Appreciate it, bro.