Stop Overthinking Important Decisions ft. Hunter Hayes

Every conversation starts with the one you're having with yourself. Hunter Hayes joins me to talk about how self-trust changes the way you communicate, why feeling stuck often starts with the stories you tell yourself, and how finding your own voice makes every relationship stronger. If you've ever struggled to speak up, trust your instincts, or communicate with confidence, this conversation is for you. Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Tiny Health: Go to https://tinyhealth.com/jefferson for $50 off your first at-home test kit. Our Place. Visit https://fromourplace.com/JEFFERSON and use code JEFFERSON for 10% off sitewide. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  The person who's trying to figure out right now whether or not they need to outgrow the version of themselves they are right now, what would you say to that person?

• 0:38Speaker 02

  You always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  To take the opportunity?

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, take the opportunity.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Hunter, what if I have...

• 0:45Speaker 02

  If you're gonna play the game of what if, if you're gonna list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things that can go right.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  The practical takeaways that I love to talk about is you said, "Hey, I'm gonna make some decisions for me, right here, rather than this committee thing. I'm gonna do something independent, rather than feeling like life is happening to me, I'm gonna make some course corrections here." And there had to be some type, some point in your life where you say, "I, I need others at my table." So I love the metaphor, and this is something I apply for me, of filling the seats at my table. Everybody in life has a table, and I start with empty chairs. And really, it's your, it could be your parents, your grandparents, whoever your guardians are, those are the people who are really the only ones at your table.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  And as you get older, you go to a different table, and then you kind of have to fill them again in kind of your twenties, and then you fill them again in your thirties. And I find, who are the people, because I'm very selective with who's mentally at my table, and I feel like you have found this full circle moment or clarity of who are the people you want at your table?

• 2:02Speaker 02

  That's, well, going back to the chapter of going away.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  That was that.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  And God and the universe kind of did it for me. There were a lot of things that needed to happen. There were a lot of changes that needed to happen. Very scary, like, I'm gonna leave an entire institution behind. And like, as an artist, there's so many pieces, I've heard a few of the people that I look up to describe it as like, you're the, you're the hub, and there's so many pieces that keep the wheel together. And at the time, I needed to let go of a lot of things, and I wasn't ready to let go of any of those things. And so, certain things just started kind of falling off naturally, you know?

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, for you.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  I remember, yeah, I remember having a conversation with my, I think my agent at the time, and I was like, you know, spending more time in California, and I was kind of having a hard time telling him, like, "I think I'm gonna go there and be there." Because what I was trying to say was, "Does that scare you?" And of course, it didn't, but he was like, "Dude, you need to." He's like, "You should." He's like, I mean, "It'd be great to get some new energy." And he was, he was excited about the idea, and I think that kind of like, let me sit in a little bit more. And then everyone else, you know, I talked to another member of my team, I was like, trying to like, you know, apologize for like, this shift that I wanted to make. And he was like, "Well, it's funny, because I've noticed in life, you tend to find what you're looking for." And he's like, "You were clearly looking for new energy and change and all those things."

• 3:26Speaker 02

  So, I say that to say, yes, but also like, touching back on something else, I mean, the like, yes, picking the people at your table, this was my chance. I think there was one big shift that happened, and I made one phone call to somebody in this room, and I was like, "Okay."

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Not me.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  "Here's what I'm doing." I was like, "I am, I have played by everyone else's rules." Because I think another downfall, if I can touch back on that.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, please.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  We can, we can bullet point all these things so that people can follow along to my, the way my brain works. But another downfall is, I was surrounded by people who have been doing this for longer than I have, and my tendency is to assume everyone knows more than me. And in a lot of ways, yes, absolutely, for the rest of my life, everyone will know more than me. I have so much to learn from everybody. And I am constantly learning how to hold the truth of, "Yeah, but so do I."

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  And like, the most important thing, I think, that I realized in like, 2018, 19, was, you know, I was having a hard time talking the label into a certain song, or this, that, whatever. And I, it kind of started happening when I recorded Invisible and put a song called Invisible out, because it was not like, the big up-tempo radio song, but it was something that I felt very called to. And luckily, like, my team around me knew how important this was, not only for people to understand me, but for me to create more of what I wanted, so far, space for people to come and for me to play to, and sing to. Space for the audience that I want to sing with.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  The realization was, I am fighting with people in a room who are all brilliant, but none of them have done any of the meet and greets that I've done.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  None of them have shaken the hands with the people that I've shaken hands with.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  You know, hugged, talked to, heard what, what everyone had. Like, our, our meet and greets, like, we're constantly trying to figure out how to make more time.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Because we have conversations in these lines, and people share their story because of the way that they connect with music. And so, I think that learning, that, that tipping point, I would say, right around 2019, was a big one for me, in learning to trust the gifts that I have, or the experience that I have, or the practice that I've put in, trust myself. Not in a, "I know everything," but in a, I have to create a threshold where I know how to say, "Guys, you have to trust me on this." You know what I mean?

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Like, to be in a room with a bunch of brilliant people who have been in the business for 30 years, be the youngest guy in the room, and say, "Guys, I totally hear everything that you're saying. I'm gonna just try this, and if it fails, it's on me."

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  But like, if everyone can just rally around, but you also have to go into that room knowing that. You can't just like, say it, because you've got to bring the right energy. I feel like I've got to bring the right energy into the room. I, I have to know it before I walk in, and so that when I say it, everyone can feel what I'm feeling.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Whether I communicate it well or not.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  And they can feel the trust, they can all kind of put their shoulders back and go, "You know what? Okay, fine, I'll go with this."

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Where is the line for you of knowing, do I say, "You know what? Okay, guys, yep, everybody else knows better than me," versus, "No, I'm gonna put my flag in the ground and say, 'No, this is something I really believe in.'" Is it that trust yourself? Like, what's the phrase that, that Hunter Hayes tells himself in that moment?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  That's a great question.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  I think it's different based on each case.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  You know, because like, the first thing that comes up is, we were trying to figure out how, how to do a gig, literally, less than a week ago. And I was like, "I don't, I'm not feeling flow here. Like, I really, I would love to make this happen, but I'm not feeling the flow."

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  And I'm hearing everybody telling me, "Well, this is why you should do it, this is probably why we should consider it." And I was just like, "I'm just, I'm not feeling it."

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  And I got, I got, there were sort of two times where I was like, "I hear it, I get it, and I'm just not feeling the flow."

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  You know? And the third time, a new detail kind of emerged, and I was like, "There it is. There's the purpose."

• 7:40Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  "I see the purpose now, and I'm, I'm, I'm just gonna sit in the backseat." Because now, this is, there's something outside of what I know, and I can, I see that, and I'm gonna trust everyone around me to help me pull this off.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Is there a phrase that you kind of like, even a word that kind of comes to mind, where you think, is it just a gut feeling?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Well, I'd love to say it's a gut feeling, and that case is, I use that as an example, because I was so convinced, you know, the first two times we had this conversation, I was like, "I'm, I, everyone is telling me why this should happen, and I'm feeling like this maybe shouldn't."

• 8:17Speaker 01

  You need to feel, you need to feel like you can see it, right? That, that sense of safety of like, well, you keep bringing the word "flow."

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a, that's a word.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  No, that, I love that word. Is that a word you've always used, or a new word that you've integrated into yourself?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Well, I, I'm learning what it means outside of the stage, because when I'm on stage, I can tell you when I'm in flow.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  There's something that has, because you have no choice.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  There's no walking away, you know, whether it be 50 people watching, or 50,000 people watching.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Everyone can feel it.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  That's the ultimate test of, "Am I, am I here?"

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  "Or am I here?"

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Everyone can tell. I can smile, I can say all the things. I know the difference between when an audience knows, an audience knows when I'm in it, and then audience knows when I'm not.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  When you're not, yeah.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  And so, it's the ultimate like, exercise, and you're either checking in, or you're checking out. You know? So, that is where I, I go back to a flow state. When the band and I, you know, even if it's something that's like, really super well arranged, I can tell when we're all just in it.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  You know? And I can tell when we're all kind of figuring it out, you know?

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  And so, I think that's my guide.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  That's a good one.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Because it feels like it's very, it's, it's not improv, per se, because there's a lot of structure in what we do.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  But there's something to the like, "I feel like I'm being carried."

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Versus, "I feel like I'm carrying." Maybe that's it.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Those moments in life where you feel like, it's, it's bringing you, inviting you into it, versus you having to drag it.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  You know, I think that's a, that's a great way to like, picture that. For me, is, I was at a meeting once, and a friend of mine, his name's Diego, the way he described this kind of flow state, and know, it was, "When he knows that there's creativity in the body," is what, is how he described it.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  What a beautiful...

• 10:09Speaker 01

  And I was like, "That's, that's the best way I've heard it described." And it doesn't matter if you are an artist, because I think we're all artists in some ways.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  And, or you're at the office, or you're in a cubicle, or you're a stay-at-home parent, or whatever, there's always this flow state of knowing, when you feel like... I think I'm good. Like, I feel like right now, I like this energy that I'm feeling. And yes, life is good. And that doesn't mean it's gonna happen, but understanding it's always gonna. There's a down and an up. But that's why I really love the word flow. Have you, how long has it been? And again, anytime you're like, that, I'd rather not, Jefferson, you just tell me. Which I'm sure you will. That you have, because you seem to be somebody who is very self-aware. Have you always?

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Thank God.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So whatever work you're doing.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  I work really hard to seem that way.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, whatever work you're doing is working. How, how many years has it been of, we're gonna say, this kind of self-work? Which, believe me, I'm, I'm in it every day, too.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  I saw my first therapist, which I don't know if it's considered a, like, looking back, I have a lot of questions. Because it was set up, it was, it was someone who worked at, it was, given credit. There was a company that I worked with that handled finances. And for somebody like me, that's a very scary, still a very scary, like, topic. Because when something doesn't go well, it's on your shoulders to figure out.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  Like, you know, it's your name.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  And so, and I have a lot of stuff around that, that's a different conversation. But there was somebody that they had in-house to sort of help, I think, help artists slash help the people working on it slash help both sometimes. But that person was actually like present in a lot of my meetings with them, but also I had time to work with them separately. And so it started with just like, how do I calm down on the road? Because I was so high-strung. Still am. But like, you can imagine being 18, 19, and like, all of your dreams are sitting right in front of you, and you're walking into one opportunity after another. That's just like, you're flowing, right?

• 12:31Speaker 02

  But at the time, there was a lot of fear around, well, you know, how many ways can I screw this up?

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  You know? So that was my first person that I worked with, and then I worked with a therapist separately. And we started to understand different things. I started to understand a little bit more of the OCD tendencies, which that was a whole thing. And then, you know, like, she was the first person that said, okay, what if it all goes away tomorrow?

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Because that was the thing I was so afraid of, you know?

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Like, okay, what if the thing you're most afraid of happens?

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. And she kind of did that work with me. And I was like, because, you know, her sense was like, you've done it before. Can't you do it again? You know? And I think that kind of like opened a new box. It's been 50, I say all that to say that it's been 15 years of just like, this experience and this experience, and like slowly starting to sort of unwrap everything. Really, honestly, probably getting into the like, the, the, the serious work around 2018, 19. I remember like one of the most profound days of my life was the year, the, we had the solar eclipse pass through Nashville. And we did like, there was a, yeah.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  You can't just stop it there.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Well, it was like a whole experience of, it was my first time getting to really dive into some work and some, some scary questions that I had myself. And so I think that was, I say that to say that the work that happened that day really started the, the flow for me working with.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Good questions, bad questions?

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Both. Depends on what time of the day you ask, you know what I mean?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  It was all, a lot of it was around, and I've talked about this a little bit, but a lot of it was around, like, what happens if I'm not like Hunter the artist?

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Do I lose, do I lose all my friends?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Because I work with all of them.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? That was when a lot of that kind of came to the surface.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  That's a huge, that's a huge question. And I think a lot of people battle it. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Tiny Health. We know what it's like when something just doesn't feel right. You just feel off. If you're getting plenty of sleep, you're eating all the right stuff, but something is just not right where you want it to be. And typically, that means something else is going on deeper within you. And one thing that you always need to make sure and check is your gut. Because if your gut's off, then everything is off. Tiny Health fixes all of that. One reason why our family likes it is because you're able to take an at-home test, right?

• 15:08Speaker 01

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• 15:53Speaker 01

  That's tinyhealth.com/jefferson. And now, let's keep going. There is, what they say in like, therapy circles, is, you know, we all come in thinking we're terminally unique, right? Nobody can relate to anything that's happening. This is my own special, one, I'm a one-case wonder right here. And then you really, really get to learn, hold up, it's all just the same fear and different flavors, you know, of what am I if I'm not this? Who am I if I'm not this? Will they still stick around? Will they still, will they leave? If they know the worst things about me, will they, will they turn around and run?

• 16:36Speaker 01

  And I think that is a deeply rooted fear in a lot of people, myself included, of, you know, what, what happens? And what artists like yourself get to do is you turn conversations into songs, right? And you, what you said at the very beginning of this, which I thought was beautiful, is, how do I create a song and then make sure that you can find yourself in it? Like, see yourself, make, make enough room for you.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Where my mind goes, well, that's conversations. How do I make sure that I have a conversation that I can say, I want you to see yourself in this conversation with me, where we, we can have this moment and, and create something that we can really walk away with in every conversation? And even in my short time with you, I'm gonna walk away with something. And I think if everybody takes that moment to ask themselves, you know, what am I walking away from? Or what am I letting go of? And maybe I'm not walking away with anything, you know? Maybe I'm leaving something where it needs to be in a conversation. I think that's, that helps round people out so much better. So having that, here you say, you know what, I had to ask some of these big questions. Who am I if I'm not the Hunter Hayes that here on the radio?

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Has to be a question where you gotta go to some pretty deep places. But it sounds like you've come from a lot of that. I do want to ask some questions for us to kind of think of another person in the conversation. And this is a chance that I would love if we take some of the things that you've learned over the last two years and say, how can we give that person advice? And with all self, you know, deprecating aside, because we don't know, we know we don't know.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  And we all have probably some level of OCD or ADHD or something. I got my own things, you know? The person who's trying to figure out right now whether or not they need to outgrow the version of themselves they are right now. What would you say to that person?

• 18:52Speaker 02

  You kind of always need to, you, you, you always have the opportunity to outgrow the person that you are now.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  To take the opportunity.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, take the opportunity. Yeah.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  And for the person who's saying the same thing of that fear of, well, yeah, but what if? Hunter, what if I have?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  If you're gonna play the game of what if, and you, then you have to play it for both sides of the team. You have to, if you're gonna list all the things that could go wrong, then go ahead and list all the things that can go right.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Give, give the cons the same weight as the pros.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. For everything that you say that scares the shit, can I say this?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Scares the shit out of you.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  Also, name the things that you would be absolutely blown away if just everything went right.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  You know, what if, what if I lose my job? What if that's what, what if that freedom is what allows me to accept an opportunity that I otherwise wouldn't have taken? What if not having a job means that I don't have to, like, that I'm just open to way more than I, than I am right now?

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Right.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Tomorrow, 24 hours from now, my entire brain shifts. Um, what if, um, I lose, what if I lose all my friends? What if I don't have any friends?

• 20:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Great, you have more space. You have more space and you will connect with someone so much easier because you have the space for them to take up.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 20:10Speaker 03

  No, I do. I think, um, I forgot where I heard it. I was saying this to a friend the other day. Uh, I saw some interview, I couldn't tell you who, where as humans, we are horrible projectors of future things and like how we're going to feel about it. So if you, you're, um, and it works for positive and negative. So it's like that fear of what if I get fired? And you do get fired, you realize, oh, it's not that bad. Like life's still

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  happening. That big fear I had in life, oh, I'm, I'm actually, I'm actually okay. Or if you really want that promotion and you finally get that promotion, you're like, oh, this is it. Like, I thought this was going to be pretty awesome, but, but it wasn't. So I, I think what you're saying is make sure that if you're going to go the what if everything's wrong, you have to pair it with the, but what if everything's right?

• 21:06Speaker 02

  You owe it to yourself.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  You owe it to yourself to, yeah, that, that's one of my theories, something I've put into practice a lot lately.

• 21:14Speaker 03

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• 21:55Speaker 03

  I, to be honest, I was not sure about cookware because I'm like, am I going to be that crazy about cookware? Y'all, when we did a little move, I was like, here's the box I am putting our place pots and pans in. Nobody touched them because I need to know where they are as soon as we get in. That's how much I've liked these. So they call them always pans and they're just good frying pans. And then they have perfect pots, perfect name, right? This four piece set is incredible. And then also we got, they had this wonder oven, which is this cute little toaster oven, air fryer that our daughter absolutely goes bananas about for toast. It's fantastic stuff. It looks good. It looks good on the counter. It looks good when you're cooking with it and it's toxin free.

• 22:36Speaker 03

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• 23:01Speaker 03

  I know we talked about it, but I do, I want to put it in a different show, like a different package. How did you know? Like, what was the gut instinct you felt that said, hey, I need to interrupt this cycle? And just give us some space for a bit.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  It was just one too many things where I felt like I was climbing up a hill.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  Same.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Well, there was so much flow in the creative. There was so much like, I was in my, you know, at the time I had a house with a basement and I was working in my basement a lot with no sunlight, with, with, with all the things that nature gives you. I was working against the grain. I was in a dark room in the basement of my house and I was more creative than I'd ever been. I was feeling a lot and I was putting it in to the work. I was, I was making songs. There was no rules. Nothing had to be anything. I was working in secret.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 02

  You know, on an album that no one had to hear. And that was another thing, like Wild Blue was an album that I made. And it was, it was my rebellious way

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  being, being brave by myself.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  And I was like, if I love this, when it's done, it'll see the light of day. It'll happen if it's supposed to happen.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  And I was churning in a lot of songs. I mean, hundreds of songs, um, a year. I was experiencing a lot of feeling unheard, feeling misunderstood.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  I think, looking back, I think I might've had a lot of opportunities to say, trust me, but I didn't know how to do that yet.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  You say, trust me, you mean trust?

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Me.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, trust myself.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I, I trust myself. I believe in this.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  And I don't think I knew how to do that. I think this was, I think it was exactly what it was supposed to be and that it was a time that was designed to teach me that.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  And I learned it very slowly.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  But I just noticed that I felt a lot of resistance.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Where

• 24:55Speaker 02

  I, yeah, that's the best way I can say it. I had a beautiful opportunity to say, guys, I get it. I get it. Everybody's afraid. There's a lot happening.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  I know that this probably doesn't sink in just yet. Let's just try it. And like by the grace of God, there's something beautiful that happened during that time is I turned in Dear God.

• 25:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Dear God's a song that breaks all the rules. Uh, that is, I talk about that song a lot and I've said it a lot, but

• 25:23Speaker 03

  I still want to hear it.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  It was everything I wasn't supposed to write about.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  It was all the, like, the kind of production that I didn't feel like was ever going to work.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  Still a top 25, like, it was a top.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  It's one of my top streaming songs.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  It was everything I wasn't supposed to do. And my A and R person at the label was like, oh my God. And I was like, what? And he was like, no, dude. He was like, this, this mean, I don't know what we do with this, but this means something. And it started circling around the label and the label was like, everyone was talking to me about this song. And I was like, you're not supposed to hear that. You know what I mean? Like, um, and it was, it was, it definitely felt like God just kind of ripping it out of my hands and going, this is taking you too long. We're just going to do this.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  And we, you know, we didn't follow traditional promotion playbook.

• 26:07Speaker 03

  It did break all the rules.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  And it broke all the rules, man. It's like still one of my top streaming songs from that album. For, of all of my discography.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Of the songs that went to, let's say, like the, the number ones that I've had or the, you know, the songs that were in placement, whatever. But this song holds its own in that, in those numbers. And I, I only reference the numbers just because like it, it shows that it broke its own rules.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Um, and still to this day, like people come to meet and greet with tattoos from lyrics of the song or like ask me to sing it. Or I, like so many times we'll play a show and I'll kind of feel the room. And I'll be like, I don't think we should do Dear God tonight. And we do Dear God and I watch like the two people that I've been like, feeling like they're not connecting with what I'm doing at all.

• 26:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  I watched two people just totally drop in and I'm like, I am wrong about everything. I love it. So I don't know if that answers your question.

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Oh yeah. The one person who like, looks like, um, kind of bored, just immediately starts bawling.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Bored. And I'm like, man, what do I, what do I need to do to like connect with them?

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. In a nutshell, tell anybody listening, tell them briefly what Dear God is, is about, because I love that song.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  I sat down with, uh, I'm a big fan of Andy Grammer. Uh, we sat down for his podcast, uh, The Good Parts. There's a lot of conversation about faith and religion.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  And we sort of unpacked a lot of things that I was trying to figure out at the time.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  And I had, it just so happened, had a title. The deal was, uh, Andy was coming, it was late at night. He was coming in to do the podcast and I was like, if you're down to stay for like an hour, I'd love to write. And he was like, deal, I'm in. Cause we've been talking about it for years. We do the podcast, which is beautiful because in every writing room, I feel like we talk for 45 minutes about the topic. And then the song finds its way into the room. Once we've opened our doors.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  You know?

• 27:56Speaker 03

  Say that again for me, one more time.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Every room that I get into with co-writers, I always bring ideas in. Sometimes they land. Sometimes we can all, we all know what we're talking about.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Sometimes I haven't communicated it or I'm not clear on, or, or everybody else might be on a different page.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Sometimes the title will change. The idea will totally shift. But the, I would call it 30 to 45 minutes of conversation that happen for all of us to sort of like land.

• 28:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  You know, we, we pull the parachutes and we start floating down to the earth. And then when we land around it, the song is all, it's just there and it happens quickly. It happens within 30 minutes to 90 minutes max.

• 28:36Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  So the beautiful part about this song, Dear God, is the 45 minutes of conversation is in the world. Like you can go listen to the whole thing. It's on a podcast, right? So we had this conversation and I had this idea that I wanted to write with Andy.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Because of the music that he makes and his messages and the way that he represents so many thoughts and feelings. And it was called Dear God. And I was like, I kind of need to write an angry prayer. Cause on every album I've had a, a song about faith. And on this album, I'm, I'm, I'm wrestling with a lot of things. And so I want to honor that and do that. And at the end of the song, at the end of the album, there's another prayer, but, um, he just started pacing around the room and just singing like, you know, I had, I was noodling with all these like burst things, you know? It's three in the morning, just me and my demons at war again. So I'm calling in, are you listening? You know, and Andy starts pacing in the room and he just starts singing, why does my life have to hurt so much? You know, and we just start going with all these questions and it's just a song about questions.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  And the, the end of the chorus is Dear God, are you sure that you don't mess up? Meaning me, right? And at the end of the song, we circle around to like, I know you've tried to teach me this and I'm sorry, but I'm just having a hard time teaching, learning this right now. And the end just finishes with, you know, Dear God, just remind me you don't mess up. Like at the end of the day, asking these questions, knowing that there is an answer. And hoping for that reminder. So yeah, that song just like totally changed the rules in so many ways. And like, yeah, that's.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  I'm trying to figure out how to put a period on the sentence, but it was a lot of things that I really was afraid for people to hear. And the more people heard it, the more people were like, that needs to be the lead single. And I was like, what?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  But all the rulebooks that you've given me, this doesn't work. And it works.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  And that, that is one way that has helped you kind of break out of knowing what version of myself can I be? And that is you've taken these what ifs and you're proving to yourself that what I am afraid of turns out to be even better than I ever could have imagined.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Consistently, yeah, I wouldn't say a hundred percent of the time, but, and also the things that I'm most afraid of, after they happen, I end up in a place

• 30:53Speaker 02

  that's still better.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  There's still, there's more learning, there's more growing, there's more all those things.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Either way, it's good.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Kind of mentality. This episode is brought to you by Cozy Earth, and I like Cozy Earth so much that I'm going to make this entire spot about their house shoes. I ordered some of their house shoes probably about two months ago. And maybe some of you listening remember when I said I was going to order these house shoes. Update for you, they're fantastic. I wear them all the time. I wore them today. They're awesome to just wear around the house when it's like, I don't want to put on socks and shoes. I also don't want to just wear socks because our kids are really big into the Lego phase right now. And so we know what that's like, parents, when you step on yay, little Lego piece that makes you want to crumble and fall on the floor.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  And so it's much safer for me if I'm wearing these slippers. And actually, they're not bad at all. I have gone to the grocery store in them. That's how easily crossover. You wouldn't even expect that in a house shoe. But that's how good they are. So if you are like me and you enjoy feeling good and your feet feeling good at the house, get you some house shoes from Cozy Earth. CozyEarth.com slash Jefferson, use the code Jefferson for 20% off. That's CozyEarth.com slash Jefferson. Use the code for 20% off. And now let's keep going. So we've, we've talked about, you know, the, the version of yourself. How do you know when you should outgrow something? We talked about, you know, people kind of being around your table.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Are there things that you think because, because you've, you've said this with me and I know you've, you've talked about it of was as somebody who has ADHD, like, do you find that that affects your ability to like? There are people out there who I know, and I'm related to many of have ADHD and they go, but yeah, I have a really hard time with either conversation or, but I've never met anybody who song writes as an artist. And do you find that that's help or a hindrance? Or how have you found a way to?

• 33:01Speaker 02

  I'd be willing to bet you have.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure I have.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  The wild part, you know what I mean? Like, so I, I learned a lot about my brain this year. I'm in the process of learning more.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  And the way that it works. And I think it was, it gave me

• 33:16Speaker 02

  permission to start seeing ways that I frustrate myself as

• 33:25Speaker 02

  I, I relate a lot of things to general aviation because I want to get my pilot's license and there's a lot of lessons in that. And, you know, some planes are capable of reaching a certain, let's say like a certain speed.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  But they really operate just, you know, somewhere else.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  So your expectation could be, well, I'll get from this point to this point in this time. And it's like, well, there's also wind.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Even if you're doing everything right.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  It's also something called weather.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's so much out of your control and you're just part of it.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Like you, you've got a machine and if you know how to operate it.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Great.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  You know, awesome. And every time you go up, you are, you are working with the wind. And I think that like, understanding a little bit more, and again, very much in the middle of the process of understanding more about how my brain works. I've gone from being frustrated with certain ways that it works to, I wouldn't say loving all of it, but like certainly trying to honor it. And recognize, okay, I'm not crazy. It really, it, it doesn't work that way. So what do I have to do? What do I have to change? What systems do I have to put in place?

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  What things do I have to just kind of honor long enough for me to go, no, I like the way that this works now. And I, I, I think some of the shifts that I've made this year, it's changes that I've made this year

• 34:45Speaker 02

  have allowed me to

• 34:48Speaker 02

  experience more flow so that I can trust myself and saying, I totally hear you. I know that that's the expectation that is on me right now. I can't, I, I won't be able to do that well.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  But if you trust me, let me guide you through it. And I, I say this very much as an artist and I know that that's a very privileged place and I'm, I do not take that for granted. Because I know that a lot of people are in a position where they're asked for something and they have to deliver. I, I think, and I'm trying to sort of connect the dots, but you know, for me, one of the things that I put in place was just like, I totally hear you. I would love to do that. I can't do it that way. If this is the result you want, let me do this.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  And, and make sure I give you what I know I want to give you. The best version of what I want to give you. And I'm trying to think of like a realistic.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Is that one of the shifts you've made of being able to say, I hear that?

• 35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  And what I, what I hear you saying is what often I'll tell people who are disagreeing in conversation, meaning the goal's the same. We both want the best product. You have your perspective, I have mine.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  And sometimes it's, I get there another way. Right? I'm, I'm getting to the same place you are. I hear you. I just happen to get there a different way.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  And naturally that creates that curiosity of, okay, what are you saying? Now ultimately, there might be a position where one of you has a say of, I'm the final voice on what's happening. But when you're able to at least share perspectives, it seems to unlock things a little bit better. Has that been the case for you?

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and to be fair, I've used some of your language in some of these conversations, but

• 36:36Speaker 02

  I think the most applicable part of this that I can share is the trusting of myself. I can say, I, yes. I know that we both want this. I, I can't do it this way. I'm not going to be able to give you good results this way, but let me try it this way.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  And let's just see what happens.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Because I think often sometimes too, the thing that I'm learning is like, they, you know, the person that I'm working with or talking to about this negotiating, let's say. And for me, it's often just about schedules and how I work. Cause I wear so many hats. It's just like, yeah, you can do this, but you know, but tomorrow, it's like, I, I could, and it would just mean that I have to stop doing all these other things.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  That I feel like are potentially more important.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  And often are.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  And often are. And so sometimes it's just like, I have, I have to trust that not only am I doing what I know will allow me to succeed and accomplish the goal, but I also know that when I do, they'll see it as well. And maybe they won't. But the hope is they'll see like, oh, okay, the process worked better. Okay. Trust it, you know? And maybe they won't, but I, I will be happier with the thing that I gave.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Does that make sense?

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, the, the whole thing, yeah, I'm, I follow you. I follow you. When you are writing music and you're putting out things that you can tell, I mean, Evergreen album is a perfect example of this. I think often you're saying it to yourself, but you're leaving room for the other person to see themselves in it as well. And I mean, I can't imagine having a song out and, you know, somebody's tatted with some of the lyrics that you have, like, it's just got to be the most unreal thing.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  That's, that's the, my new metric of success.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. How do you?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  How do you process the amount of exposure you've had very early on? Like the question that comes to my mind is, do you think if you had had so much exposure as a, as a child, as a teen?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  That how that would have influenced you as an artist now? Is that something you can even imagine of like, you know, had, have I, had the spotlight not been on me at such a young age? Are there's pressure responsibility at such a young age? It probably would have had this kind of positive effect? Or do you think it actually would have taken away from who you are now?

• 39:02Speaker 02

  I find questions of that nature to be very challenging to answer.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Then don't answer if you want to.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  Well, I just like, I, I don't, like, yeah, sure. I can, I can tell you all the things that have come up in therapy because I started performing at five. And I would not have operated the way that I did with the drive that I had at nineteen.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Had I not brought those things with me, you know?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  But you seem to be the type too, that like, even if you didn't make another dime doing music, there's no stopping you making music. Like you, you would just continue to do it because that's, it's such an integral part of you. Cause I can only imagine when you're, when you're listening to songs and you're driving, even driving here.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  You're constantly thinking of ideas and ways and, there are some people who hear words in color. Right? And there's some people who hear music in color and the, the just brain goes about it a different way.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. I watched, I actually watched the whole thing on that.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Well, I like, we were mixing a song on Evergreen, actually. I think it was, I think it was Wait. I was having a hard time communicating. I was like, maybe this will make sense. And I drew out, what is it? Synesthesia? I did some research on that and then I wrote, is that, am I saying that right?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Sounds or colors?

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  I actually made a really dumb looking drawing. There was a circle and it was like, all of the instruments that were in the song had their own shape and color and place. To tell them like where I wanted it in the mix, up or down, stereo field, left to right. And then the color corresponded with the, part of the frequency spectrum that I wanted it to sit in. I absolutely think that way. The reason that I had such a hard time answering your question a minute ago is because I made my commitment to music before it was a commitment, before it was a job, before it was a, what are you doing for the rest of your life? Before it was a what next? I was in love with making music when I was five, six, seven.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Thus, you know, I found the studio world when I was like 11, 12. And all of a sudden, oh my God, there's a safe little greenhouse for me to make music in.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. You mean I can do this?

• 41:16Speaker 02

  There's a place where I can grow.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  And, and at my own pace. I can follow whatever pulls me along. I can write about anything and figure it out, learn how to write on my own. And then that gave me more confidence to put shows together, you know? To arrange parts for a band, to figure out what the flow of the show needs to be. And so because I fell in love with it before it was a job or before it was a decision, I've never had to make the decision. I make music. Does that make sense?

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it does.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  So that, that's why it's so challenging to go like, if you hadn't found it so early, what would you? Cause I, I, I don't know that I would have had the confidence to say, this is what I'm doing for a living. There's a lot of reasons to say like, this could also not work.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  But I, I've never believed that. I mean, one of my first, you know, team members was just like, I think that, you know, he, and plenty of people say versions of this, but like, it was very, very much, one of the reasons I believe you're going to be a success is because you have no backup plan. And it's so true, you know? And it's, but it just means that like, to me, like I said, to sum it up, I fell in love with it before I had to figure out what to do with it. Does that make sense?

• 42:32Speaker 01

  It does. What do you think the, the result would have been had you not interrupted what you had to two years ago to kind of take a pause and say, you know, hold up, let me look at this differently. You went over to California, took a healthy break. I know you didn't stop working, but you need, you needed to, you needed some distance from something.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  A break from the patterns.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Had you not taken a break from your patterns, the patterns that may have no longer been serving you in that, that way? What do you think the result would have been had you not?

• 43:12Speaker 02

  One side of me says I would have taken a break at some point.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  It was inevitable.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  I would have hit a breaking point.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, you would have hit a wall.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  If I hadn't created the space, the space would have created itself.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  You know, whether that be through some version of, you know, what do they call it? Self sabotage or?

• 43:31Speaker 01

  A mental B. Yeah.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Or just like, or just not showing up, you know, getting opportunities and not being able to show up well.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  It would have been on, it would have been not on your terms. It would have been on somebody else's terms.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Not on my terms.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Which was never gonna happen.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  So, or, or I, I would have, I would have, another version of it could have been, I just like let go and gave up on a lot of things that I currently luckily, thankfully, still believe in. I would have, you know, created a version of the future where I was safer feeling what I was feeling. And that would have probably required disconnecting from a lot of the things that I really still care about and love doing.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. It's a, I don't know.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Well, sometimes that's okay to just say, I don't know, because I mean, you, you're here now.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  You know?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Do you find that right now you're, that you're content and that you're living that version that you wanted to live a few years ago?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  In so many ways, I'm living that version. And in so many ways, I have so many things that I want to grow on.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  There's so many things I want to improve upon. There's so many things that I, I want to just like dance with a little bit and figure out how to improve.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  How do you track those, like practically?

• 44:59Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Do you write, are you a big journaler? Do you write stuff out?

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Yes, and.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  You're very good at the yes ands, by the way. I do like that.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Well, I like, I, I, I journal a lot. It's chaotic.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  That's good. It's supposed to be.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  It, well.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  A lot of times I just doodle. Like I just draw it out.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Well, I need structure.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  You know, so when I judge my journaling, it's like, well, I'm not, you know, I'm not consistent. And it's like, well, no, you're not. And that's okay.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  I can tell you when the first time I started journaling, I would rip out pages because I didn't like my handwriting. Like that's how bad that was. I'd get mad at like, ah, I just, I screwed up this word and now it looks really gross. And now we have to either write through it or scratch it out. And then it would bother me really bad.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  That makes, well.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you're not alone.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  It clicks in a lot of ways. Totally different, but clicks.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  I journal, but I also kind of think that a lot of my like expression or like my version of journaling is, is working on music.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  In production, for instance. You know, I think sometimes the image of recording a song is we come into a place like this, we record and, you know, and it happens in a couple of, you know, takes. But for me, I sit with a song for hours, hundreds of hours, trying to learn what it's trying to tell me. So there's a part of it that is kind of accidentally therapeutic in that so much of what I love about production is I'll record a part on an acoustic guitar. And I'll just sit with it. It'll bother me because it's just, it feels too aggressive. It feels too angry. It doesn't feel soft. Or like, a great example is there's a song on, on, on, well, there's Around the Sun on Evergreen.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, the last one. Yeah.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  That was technically the first song that I finished for the album. And it, it takes a trip. The, the riff is played very, the riff is, the first version of the riff that you hear is actually heavily manipulated from the day that I wrote the song to show sometimes an idea doesn't feel the way that it's supposed to right away. And then as you go through the song, it's like the band starts to learn the riff. And it's played more confidently and all of a sudden it's on a 12 string guitar and it's like, oh, that's the way it's supposed to be heard. And then an electric guitar kicks everybody out and starts, plays the solo. And for me, that's communication. That's me communicating like, this is my process of learning this lesson. I wrote the song. I learned the song. And now I'm learning what the song wants me to know moving forward.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  And then towards the end, you know, there's like four different kick samples that come in.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  There's a, there's a real drummer playing, but there's also like a lot of just energy. And I wanted it to feel like a dance song by the end of it.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  It's kind of subtle. That's the goal. But like, and even the bass part is not just like a bass part. It's like, it's its own riff. Because I wanted the song to grow in its own confidence as it goes.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Right? So that was therapy for me. That was four days, you know, I, I, another thing I really am a big fan of is neural feedback. The, I don't know how else to refer to it, but I've done a lot of that. And that's actually allowed me to put a lot of the lessons that I've learned from coaching or therapy.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Tell me what that is for people.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  It's.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Neural feedback.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Neural feedback. It sends, I'm gonna destroy my explanation.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Okay. We're just, we're just gonna admit that's gonna butcher it, but we don't care.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  But essentially as patterns get formed in the brain, it's a way, it's a, it's a technology that's, that is approved to clear out.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Kind of like stuck sand. Kind of blast through and allow the brain to create its own new neural pathways.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Just a sand blast your brain.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Sand, yeah, sand blast the parts that you get stuck in. So like, a lot of people find it like life changing. Everything from, you know, addiction to PTSD to, I mean, all kinds of, I've, the stories are incredible. It's helped me tremendously. It's one of the, like, the things that if I'm taking a break from every modality, that's still the one thing that I'm pretty confident will help me move forward.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  So I had done a journal feedback session in the middle of writing that song. And then all of a sudden, it just started to make sense. And I started to spend more time with it. So I say all that to say, I think parts of, parts of the way that I journal are musically.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Like when I record an idea, I'm also translating how it feels to feel those lyrics.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  That's why I said the very like start, like you, you write in a journalistic way, like very much so that it's, like you could have written all that out simply in your journal without any music to it, because I think it resonates that way. Do you find that when you say, I'm listening for what the song wants to tell me?

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Do you think that's true for conversations too? That like often after conversations happen, you kind of have to go, okay, what was that conversation telling me between these two? Humans, aside from the, the, the part that I played in it, aside from the fact that I played a part in it. Now, if I separate it out from myself, what was that? What is that conversation trying to tell me? Do you find that to be true?

• 50:19Speaker 02

  So true.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  One of my goals this year was to sit down with mentors more often.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Cause I, I have the, the bad habit of saying, oh, well, they, they have more important things to do, you know? And I've been challenging myself with like reaching out to people and going like, hey, I want breakfast. I want to sit with you.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  And one of the first ones that I did was beautiful because I, I was like in my car trying to pre-pave and, you know, Virgo myself into a conversation where I was like, this is, what is my goal? What do I want from this?

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  And I just heard God just yell, just like, you need to chill out.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  You need to just listen.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  You talk to God a lot?

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very, I, I say it's unconventional. It's quite conversational.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  I think he liked that, yeah.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Because I like, I'm strongest in my faith right now than I've ever been, like religion's a different conversation. I talk to God a lot in sort of random moments.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  And I feel like I get spoken to a lot.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  And in like learning how to write music, I think, I, I think that's so much of that is tapping into what's happening outside of here.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Does that make sense?

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Oh, it does, because that makes me get really excited. It makes me think of the, just the whole idea of not just what is this conversation trying to tell me? God, what are you trying to tell me? Like, what is, exactly when you talk about flow state, like, how do I know that I'm in the flow of all things around me? Well, how am I, how do I know I'm connected in all things? So I, I think we kind of answered it right there of, yeah, conversation can absolutely be that way. Cause it's, you know, when you're in the flow of conversation, when you're not, when the conversation's going well and when it's not.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  For sure. And like, I'm still learning how to be conversational. Cause like so much of my life is, is songwriting, right? There's a goal.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  We rally around the goal and we get to, we finish the, the lyrics on the page in the most succinct way we can from the experiences that we have, but there is a goal. We're all doing that thing.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  We agree on it, right? Like I said earlier, like there's some rooms where the, the goal that I had is not what's going to happen. And that's fine, but we, we end up with the thing that we're going for. And I'm, I'm very much learning how conversations are just follow where it's going, you know, follow the flow. And my therapist talks a lot about whitewater rafting guides. And just like the course of learning how to

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Just go.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Study the river and understand the river and like keep everybody safe in the boat. But you're, you're, you're going with the river.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. You're going, yeah.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  And he sent me a whole, like, a whole, like, lesson book on that before we started the tour. Cause being on tour is very much, you're in the, you're in the whitewater.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you're halfway through right now, I think, right?

• 53:21Speaker 02

  But we just wrapped the first sort of section of it.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  And now we're kind of building out what the rest of it looks like.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  That's, that's pretty cool, man.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  That, that's awesome. I, so I grew up playing drums my whole life. And so usually when I'm listening to an album. Yeah, oh yeah. And so usually when I'm listening, I play guitar. I, I don't play the 30 plus like you, there ain't no way. Which, that, that, well, no, that's almost sounds like an unhealthy level. Like, I don't know if I could do that. I'm like, you got it, man. That's, that's crazy. Yeah, the, though I think like the dobro would be pretty sick. I do.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  Slack?

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  That'd be pretty awesome. I think that's just because I've listened to a lot of Union Station with Alison Krauss. Like that was, that'd have been, that'd have been it. But I played drums all growing up. And so whenever I listen to a lot of the stuff, of course, like anybody who plays an instrument, you listen for your favorite instrument.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  And I have to say, I liked the drums on the very first that you're self-titled album. And then I realized that you also play the drums. That was before afterwards. So I have to say from one drummer to another, that was pretty rad, dude.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  I really enjoyed it. That was awesome. Thanks for coming on the podcast, man. I really appreciate it, man.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Thanks, dude.

• 54:36Speaker 04

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