How to Handle Defensiveness

Defensiveness can shut down a conversation before you ever get close to resolving anything. But sometimes it’s not just what you’re saying—it’s how you’re approaching the conversation. In this episode, I’m giving you three simple ways to lower someone’s defenses without avoiding the hard conversation. We’ll talk about why words like “always” and “never” immediately put people on guard, how to use “when you, I feel” instead, why finding something you can agree on changes the tone, and how turning commands into “we” questions can keep you on the same team. Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: AG1. Visit https://drinkag1.com/jefferson and get a FREE AG1 Flavor Sampler and a FREE bottle of Vitamin D3 + K2 in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order. Factor. Head to https://factormeals.com/jefferson50off and use code JEFFERSON50OFF to get 50% off and 1 free breakfast item per box for 1 year. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  Defensiveness is the number one killer of your peace, of resolution, when it comes to fights and arguments. How do you keep somebody from getting defensive? You might say, Jefferson, there's no way. That's not a thing. We can't, we can't happen. I say differently. And today, in this episode, I'm going to show you how. Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Whoever you're listening, please do me a favor. And on whatever platform you're listening, find that button that says subscribe, whether it's YouTube, or Spotify, or Apple. It does not matter. If you don't mind pressing subscribe, that would mean a lot to me, and it doesn't cost you a dime. Also, if you're watching this, you might be seeing a little different angle. It's because I have this little like magnetic stand

• 1:15Speaker 01

  that goes on my windshield, but it requires a magnetic piece on the back of my phone, and it's gone. And I have no idea where it went. So there's no magnet. So I'm putting you here. All I can think of is my kids. My kids, those rascally kids, took it. That's, that's what I'm thinking of. But anyway, that's not going to stop me from talking to you. All right, how do you keep somebody from getting defensive? There's some things I first want you to think about before we start working into the tools. And the word of the day is approach. What is your approach? You can talk about it in golf. You can talk about it in gymnastics. You can talk about it in lots of different sports and mentalities of chess to anything else. What is your mental approach when you go into this conversation?

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Because it's really easy, really easy, really tempting, that when you say something, we don't really think about the approach of how we said it. We only start to get really upset about whether that other person gets defensive or not. And as soon as they get defensive, we're like, oh, they're getting defensive. It's all their fault. They're so defensive. Without asking for a moment of what is our approach? And I need you to think about a plane for a second. A plane. When a plane approaches, right? And it's going to land. It's on, it's on its approach. What does it do right before it touches the ground? It's almost what? Even with it. It comes down low, right? Not at a steep angle, and it starts to level out and continue to coast until what?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  It can match, be parallel with the ground, and touch down. The plane does not come at a 45, 75 degree angle. Heaven forbid, a 90 degree angle means it's just dropping out of the sky and just bam, landing there. That's, you're going to crash every time. So here, what are we talking about? We're talking about angles for a second? That means we're talking about approach? Here's the takeaway. You have to avoid the acute angle. If you don't want this person to get defensive, and you know that they have a tendency of getting defensive, you have to avoid the acute angle. Meaning the sharper you come down there, the sharper you come down,

• 3:30Speaker 01

  the, the, the greater the chance is that the other person is going to get defensive. And maybe some of you math people are like, oh, Jefferson, that's actually not acute. That's up to, I don't, don't do that to me. You know what I'm talking about. Let's just go. Let's go. Don't get defensive with me. All right. So approach. Approach is the word of the day. Meaning when somebody gets defensive with you, what I need you to first think of is, okay, I, I need to, to first take a moment to retool how I approached that question. Because how you approach it can mean all the difference. If that person's going to be receptive to what you're saying, and open, or if they're going to claim up, and their spears are going to be out,

• 4:15Speaker 01

  and they're going to be sharp, and they're ready for the battle because they feel like you're being defensive. What do I mean by that? Let's, let's take number one. Number one is rather than focusing on how poorly and defensive they are, I need you to listen to the difference of, of these two things. Listen to the differences. I want to illustrate this first.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  I want you to put yourself, you and I are in an argument. Okay? Bam, you're welcome. You and I are in an argument right now. And it could be about, I don't know. Let's say how often you're around, in the office, or at home, or whatever. Let's just say how often you're around. And I use phrases like this. I say, you're never, you're never here. You're always looking to be gone. You, you just don't care. You know, you, you don't, you don't care to be here. You don't, you, you don't want to be here. Right? You hear, you hear what I'm saying? How are you going to feel about this?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  How are you going to, how are you feeling hearing that? Are you going, well, that, yep, that's true, Jefferson. I really don't want to be here. No, I really don't care. Well, you, you got me nailed. I, I don't want to. Of course you're not. Of course you're not going to think that. You're, you're going to be like, hey, hold up. Um, that's, that's not right. And just because you have an opinion of, hey, that's not right, that doesn't necessarily in that moment feel like you're being defensive. But to them, to me, in this, this scenario, I'm going to be like, oh, how defensive are you by disagreeing with me? You see the convolution here? So is convolution a word? Let's make it a word. Number one, avoid telling people what they want and don't want, and feel and don't feel. If you don't want them to get defensive,

• 6:03Speaker 01

  don't tell them what they want, or what they don't want, and what they feel, and they don't feel. Remove that language. Well, I'm going to call this as permanent language. Meaning there's a permanency about it, where you're glossing with a broad brush of deciding for them what they think about things, what they want about things, and how they feel about things. If you're approaching it from that acute, sharp angle, which who wants to be told what they want, think, and feel?

• 6:39Speaker 01

  You're, you're going to be having a really hard landing every single time. That's a bad approach. So instead, instead of telling them, beginning with your, your words. So what could this look like? I want you to think, if you've been using this in any of your arguments, or your big conversation, where you say something as simple of, you know, you don't, you don't care. You don't care. Or you never, or you always. Right? You hear those absolutes? You, you never, you always. Where you're saying that whatever you're telling them is a permanent nature. Permanent nature, rather than it being temporary. Okay.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Instead of that, I need you to soften the approach. And I'll give you a really easy one. Easy, easy, easy, simple, simple, simple method. And it is when you, I feel.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  All right? You get to say the same thing. It's the approach. You can say all the same stuff. It's, it's just your approach. Hear what I'm saying?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  Instead of, you know what? I, you, you just don't care. You, you don't, you don't really care to be here. You don't want to be here. Versus when you don't show up on time, when you look for ways to avoid, when you choose to do other things than be here with me, I feel as though you don't care. You hear the difference? When you, I feel. Use that framework. It is simple. It is one of the most basic I could teach. When you, I feel. Rather than going straight to, I know that you don't. I know you always.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  When you do this, I feel why. Much softer, parallel approach, that they're not going to get mad about. Why? Because you're saying, when you do this, I feel this way. You see, it's a, it's a temporary state, rather than a permanent one, of saying you, you never, you always, you don't care. Big, big difference. Okay? So we're going to soften our approach by not using permanent statements, but rather a framework of when you, I feel. Before we keep going, I'll take a moment to tell you about AG1. Here in my world, school has finally started up and going, which is great that my wife and I finally have some time to get things done. It's also where we have to get a lot of things done.

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• 10:34Speaker 01

  This is going to sound a little funky, but it works. Okay, and it's honest. I need you to agree with what they're saying. We're going to talk about, we've talked about other episodes about this idea of affirmation, of affirming that feeling. Here in this argument, that's not really the context for it. So instead, I'm going to push it more towards agree with what they're saying. Now, I do not mean agree with the statement itself. So if you want to say something in response to what they've said,

• 11:14Speaker 01

  and you want to, in some way, feel like you're about to say something defensive because you're about to disagree with them. And mind you, defensiveness does not equal disagreement. Like, defensive has nothing to do about whether or not you agree or disagree. It's the posture that you're taking. Because there's plenty of people that agree with what you're saying. They're just, they're doing it from a very defensive posture and position. So what we're going to do is agree with what they're saying, but rather than the micro, I want you to think macro. And what I mean by that is, instead of getting into the weeds of something that you really don't care to argue about,

• 11:57Speaker 01

  but you know this is something that's important to them, rather than getting them defensive, more defensive about it, all you need to say is, well, I agree. That's worth talking about. I agree that's a perspective. I agree that's a perspective. See how I'm saying? They're just hearing, "I agree." "I agree that's worth..." "I agree that that's a subject that's important." "I agree that that's an important subject. I agree that this is something we should talk about. I agree that this is worth the discussion. I agree this is worth the conversation." Right? You hear how, just by saying that, I'm not getting this defensiveness of saying, "Ah, I don't want to talk about that. Ah, that's stupid. Why would we even share?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Why would we even talk about this? I don't want to go there." They're going to get defensive in the fact that they're offering information that you are shutting down and slamming down. Again, that's going to produce a very defensive result because they feel like they're not being heard, not being understood, and they're going to continue to fight you until they feel, in some way, with somebody who's going to understand them more than you are. When you can say something as simple as, "I agree. I agree this is worth talking about. I agree this is worth the conversation,"

• 13:13Speaker 01

  has a way of keeping people from getting defensive because they feel like, not only do you agree in some sense of affirming what they're feeling, that's what they're getting inside, but also they feel like they're being understood. That's all that people are really wanting when it comes down to it. Number three, what I want to harp on is, when, instead of asking questions, we make statements. That's a problem. So what's the advice? Rather than turn, the advice is, turn statements into questions and make it a "we" thing. All right? Make it a "we" thing. Instead of saying, "Look, I need you to calm down."

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Right? Big problem there because you just said, "I need you." Right? "You need to calm it down. You need to..." "Hey, you need to calm it down." Is that going to work? "You need to do whatever." Nobody, this matches what we said in number one. Nobody wants to be told what to do or what they need. You know what? "You need a nap." "You know what? You just need to take a walk. You need a timeout." Who wants to hear that? Okay? Whenever you go into those statements of, "You need to lower your voice,"

• 14:33Speaker 01

  the other person's going to get defensive because they don't want to be told what they need or what they should be doing. Instead, turn it into a question and make it a "we" thing. So what I like to say is, just flip it and make it a "we." Oh, I think I need to, I need to rework that phrasing.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  That's funny. So we're going to turn it into a question and make it, make it an "us" thing. Maybe that's better. A "we" thing, an "us" thing. So here's what it sounds like. Instead of, "You need to lower your voice." It's, "Can we lower our voice in this discussion?" I'm making it a "together" thing, instead of a "just to them" thing, as if I haven't also been lowering, as if I also haven't been raising my voice the whole time. As if I have been totally free of any wrongdoing and it's all them. If I make it a "we" thing and ask a question, then they don't get defensive. "Hey, can we, can we take this step by step?" Instead of telling them, "You need to break this down and go step by step with this for me."

• 15:37Speaker 01

  That's me giving them instruction. People do not like instruction in these very sensitive conversations of telling them again what they should do and what they should not do, what they should want, what they should not want, what they need, what they don't need. Okay? That's all me trying to control you. And if the other person feels controlled, good luck because they're going to get defensive about it every time. That we don't, we don't, we don't like that. We will get very defensive, not only of our ideas, as we talked about in step two, but also of you trying to control me. So I'm going to want to protect things that are my autonomy. I'm going to want to protect things that are my thoughts or my words. Feels like, "This is mine. You can't take this from me."

• 16:21Speaker 01

  So when we use language that are statements, very pointed, remember, very harsh, acute approach statements, people are going to get defensive. So how do you avoid that? Turn the statements into questions and make it a shared "us" thing. So instead of, "Well, you need to figure that out." It's, "Hey, can we, over the next few weeks, can we, can we try and figure that out?" Apply it to both of you. So much can be avoided in hard conversations when you make it about both of you.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  That way, they don't feel alone. They don't feel like they're the bad actor. That way, they don't feel like you're saying, "I have everything figured out and I'm blameless and you're the problem there." They're not going to, they're not going to respond to that very effectively. And why would they? Why would they? So when it comes to keeping people defensive, there are true, real things that you can do that are going to lower the chances of people getting defensive. You might say, "Jefferson, look, you don't know what I'm dealing with, what I'm living with. This person always gets defensive, no matter what I do."

• 17:28Speaker 01

  They always get defensive. Maybe so. I don't know them. Right? So you're going to have to make that, that decision for yourself. What I can tell you, right, is that you are going to significantly, significantly decrease the chances of them getting defensive if you follow exactly what I'm telling you in this episode. And that is, one, you have to soften the approach. Take care to consider how you're asking and how you're saying it.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Big difference when you're trying to control them or trying to tell them what they should be doing or how they feel or what they want. When you do that, you're setting off alarms on their autonomy button. Okay? It's like, "Hold up. You don't get to decide for me what I'm, what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling." For example, have you ever told somebody, you go, "Man, you just, like, you just seem like really grumpy right now." Do they ever go, "Yeah, I'm grumpy." No, most likely, they're going to go, "No, I'm not grumpy. I'm just annoyed by this." See, they don't even want you to decide what feeling they're feeling. You hear me?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  They don't even want that. Because that is pushing in on my autonomy button of, "All right, let me decide how I want to feel." That's what, that's what they're thinking. Okay? That's how they're feeling. And so when you use the "when you I feel" method, or you find ways to say, "This is, hey, I agree on X, Y, and Z. I agree this is worth us talking about. I agree that you're right to be frustrated by this." Boom. Pull down defenses. Or when you say, you turn it into a question of, "Hey, can we, can we go a little bit slower here? Can we speak a little bit kinder between each other?"

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Has a way of not making them feel like you're putting the whole spotlight in their face and like, as if they're in some interrogation, and you're saying, "Do better because everything I'm doing is doing great." Because they're not going to feel like it's even. All right? They're going to, they're not going to go, "I'm always the bad person and you're always the good person." The good cop, bad cop kind of stuff. Right? They're going to reject that kind of approach. So when you are able to, in real time, again, I'm going to go back to that word, "approach." When you think differently about how you approach the conversation

• 20:13Speaker 01

  of the statement itself, think, "Hey, can I, let me redo that." Just, even if you were to say, "Hey, can I restate that? I want to restate that better." When you do X, Y, and Z, "I feel," or "I think," or "my brain tells me," or "I feel inside that, you know, X, Y, and Z," much softer approach. Avoid the acute angle. You want to avoid the crash and burn. Make it a "we" thing together, rather than just pointing them at you. "You don't, you don't, you can't, you can't."

• 20:55Speaker 01

  If you go into what they can't do, or they don't do, or what they always, or they never... Life's more gray than that. Nobody is altogether good. Nobody is altogether clever. Nobody's all that nice. We're all in this together because you know what? It's really easy to flip position and we can get just as defensive. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Factor. Y'all, I was not expecting this. I get hit up by different sponsors for different things. And when Factor came across, I was like, yeah, I would love to try meals where they come straight to your door. And Factor, they said, hey, these are dietitian-based meals. They're chef-inspired. And I was like, okay, okay.

• 21:40Speaker 01

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• 22:24Speaker 01

  So jefferson50off, that's their code. You get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until October 31st, 2026. That's code [email protected]. See website for more details. Listen, Factor makes eating healthy a whole lot easier and it's really that good. I'm probably going to have one today in just a little bit. That's how good it is. And now let's keep going. So do not take the fact that somebody disagrees with you. This is another point that I wanted to make before I leave you. Just because they disagree with you does not mean that they're defensive. You can't take that... What would that say?

• 23:07Speaker 01

  That if somebody were to disagree with you, they're automatically defensive? Okay? There's this quote about if two people always agree on the same thing, that one of them isn't necessary. One of them isn't necessary. You require different ideas and disagreement. Just because they disagree with you does not mean that they are defensive of you. That is a scarcity mindset. Both things can be true. They can also have their opinion and disagree with you and that not mean that they're defensive. All right? So I want you to also remove that filter of simply because somebody has a different opinion or a different thought. And again, it's going to depend on how they approach it to approaches the word of the day.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  That's how you find peace faster. That's how you keep conversation in flow. That's how you stop knots from appearing in the string of connection between the two of you. Cool? How to keep people from getting defensive and even yourself sometimes. All right. Thanks for staying with me while we're a little bit lower and not on the other windshield. I don't know. Let me know how you like this. Maybe we'll just stay right here. Does this feel a little bit more homey? I don't know. I'm going to ask my kids where that magnetic piece is, if we can find it. Try that and follow me. Y'all be good.

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