Why Honesty Earns More Respect Than Agreement ft. Ben Bruno

What if being more direct actually made people trust you more? My friend Ben Bruno has spent years training some of the most recognizable people in the world, and one of the things I appreciate most about him is that you always know where he stands. In this episode, we talk about how to give an honest opinion without being a jerk, why people respect you more when you stop telling them what you think they want to hear, and how to adjust the way you communicate depending on who’s in front of you. Get Ben Bruno's STRENGTH app here: https://benbruno.com/ Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: David. Subscribe and save 10% on every order’ at https://davidprotein.com/jefferson Our Place. Visit https://fromourplace.com/JEFFERSON and use code JEFFERSON for 10% off sitewide. Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  What's your mindset in how to speak directly to people who have perhaps a higher ego or a very inflated high sense of self?

• 0:41Speaker 02

  It's very important to be direct. Being direct doesn't mean you have to be a jerk.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  People trust you more when you tell them no.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  I would say people trust you more when you tell the truth. When people are coming to you for your opinion, it's very important to give a clear opinion.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Dude, it's so good to see you.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  This is awesome.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, the fact that you're here, I have to tell people how you and I even met, because this is, I guess to me, the epitome of social media.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  What is the actual social part?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, the social, the social part. I see you on Instagram and like, oh, this guy's cool. I like fitness. I want to see what he's about. And then I started following you. And I was like, he gives really great fitness advice. And then you followed me back. And then it was like, hey, bro, hey, bro. It's like, I like your stuff. And then, and then we've known, we've been friends.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Cause I want to hear your story, then I'll share my version of your story.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Right. Well, that's, that's my version. And it was like, hey, I like your stuff. Hey, I like your stuff too. And then the next time I was going, shortly after I was going to LA to do a bunch of podcast tours for the first time. And I thought, well, I could hit him up and just say, what's up? To hang out. Your version of a hangout is let's go work out.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  And so I was, I was, I was pumped. And then we've been, we've been friends ever since.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Well, you're one of the, my only friends I've met through social media. Cause I actually feel, as somebody who participates in social media, but kind of lives my life in the real world and then just does social media. I feel like it should be called antisocial media. Cause I feel like most of it's just negative and all that type of stuff. But I remember it that because you have a lot of followers, whenever you followed me, it like popped up, you know, Jefferson Fisher follows you. So I click and then I'm like, oh, that's the guy that talks in his car that pops up all the time. I tend to gravitate towards people that aren't highly produced. And, and then you wrote to me about the workouts. And I was like, oh, cool.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Like, by the way, like nice, nice car videos. I like that. You give some good, good tips. And then when we lifted, do your podcast listeners know you're jacked? Do you ever, do you ever podcast with your shirt off?

• 3:10Speaker 01

  We keep, we keep that secret.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  I'm actually, to me, you should just like, always podcast with your shirt off. But you came over one time and started benching the hundreds. And I was like, actually, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but from the neck up with like the side part, you kind of don't strike me as a workout guy. No offense. Cause you're like, to me, I was like, you're like a nerdy lawyer.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, he just is nice.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  And then you just start benching the hundreds. And then I remember things got real about halfway in. Cause you're like, oh, I can't sweat through my shirt because I have a podcast. You take your shirt off and I'm like, you did, definitely did that on purpose. Cause I have 10 pack abs.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  But cool, cool. Like, cause I'm somebody, I have like work, I have friends and I have workout friends that I don't even like them that much, but they can lift my weights. So I'm like, we'll, we'll be friends.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  And I'm like, oh, he's cool and he lifts my kind of weights.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Like now it's like that Step Brothers, like let's go do karate in the garage.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  We just become best friends. Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, we don't, we don't, I do not share my fitness.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  You should. If I were you, on this podcast, you should just be like ripping curls.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  We should, just a shirtless podcast.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Talk about communication.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, we.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  And then I also want to give your wife flowers because she came to lift.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  The next time we came to visit.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  You're like a beast and also like probably the second strongest in your own household. So that was cool.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sierra, Sierra surprised you.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. So anyway, it's great to be here.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, little known fact. Yeah, we definitely like to exercise around the Fisher house. But I always find that so hilarious because the time that I went, you were, you were so surprised. You're like, oh, you could try this little weight. And then as it went up, you're like, geez. Then we were like, okay, now we can really be friends.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  I bet you, hearing this, your podcast listeners will a hundred percent be surprised.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Cause I'm telling you, if you see the video where you're like, hey, guys, like here's three ways to communicate better, like that guy usually doesn't bench the hundreds.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. The dumbbells, the dumbbells. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it was a good time. And then for Sierra to come and surprise you because she's militant with her, her strength. So that's, that's awesome. The fact that I get to have you here, man, was just a blessing. Not just because you're a personal friend, Ben, and congratulations on to you and Nicole on your beautiful baby. Beautiful baby, healthy baby boy.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Shout out to Bo.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Let's shout out to Bo. Hopefully when he's, he hears this, when he's, he's older, he'll, he'll appreciate that. Is to me, man, you are not only one of the most genuine guys, the most direct communicators I've ever come across in my life. Also, third, I find you to be, which the listeners will, will get into more as we go, the, the hidden gem of how people can think in improving their health and fitness in a way that's not over glamorized, that's not, you know, something that is genuine to both your personality and to the goals of what most people have.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  So I want to, I want to hit first this idea.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  By the way, thanks.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Super nice.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  I, where I want to take us first, you train some of the most well-known

• 7:00Speaker 01

  people in the world. And you often have to also be willing to tell them no. How, how do you tell somebody no when they either have high ego or have a very high feeling of there's somebody who feels like they know everything?

• 7:20Speaker 02

  I truly believe that training is one of life's greatest and only equalizers in the sense that if you're super rich, if you're super famous, a lot of rules don't apply to you. You can cut the line. You can get tickets to something that's sold out. You can fly privately and avoid that. You can take helicopters to avoid traffic. You can do whatever. But if you eat bad, you're going to gain weight. If you don't do the work, you're not going to get stronger. And truthfully, most of my strongest, fittest friends don't come from much. And because you don't have to, to be good in the gym.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  And so when I moved to LA and started training the people that I do, I come from New Hampshire, by the way, I come from a town of less than a thousand people. So people frequently tell me that I seem unfazed by celebrity. And that's actually not true. I'm very phased by it. It's kind of a crazy to me. And my average day is kind of wild to me, the people that I see. But, and I'm very appreciative of talent. So I, you know, you'll hear people say like, celebrities are just like everyone else. And I'm like, not really. They're way more talented than most people in at least one way. And that's why they're where they're at. But you have to remember that I deal with people

• 8:47Speaker 02

  in, in arena where it's not their specialty, but it's my specialty. So it's inverted a little bit. You know, I've trained a lot of people that I'll tell you, I was a huge fan of before. And I, and I was a huge fan of, of their movies, for example. I was a huge fan of their music or I'm a big sports fan, the people that I watched on TV. But, you know, the guy who's famous for movies is not an expert at training. And, you know, and so they're actually coming to me for the help. And I, I very much struggle with confidence in most areas of my life, but I'm very confident in the confines of the gym. And so that has really helped me. And then I've also learned

• 9:32Speaker 02

  that people at the highest level still want, they come to me to improve their health and fitness. So when you say, is it hard to say no? It is in some ways. And it's, you know, it's a different conversation than you asked. It's quite hard for me sometimes to draw personal boundaries and stuff with my clients. But in terms of training, it's very simple, you know.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  To many people, these are people that they look up to idolize. And sometimes I do too, but in the confines of fitness, I'm just giving them tips and you know, I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't tell them they're doing it wrong. Or you know, I'll never forget, I've trained Justin Timberlake for like 12 years. And about a year into training, I went to some social thing that he was at. Usually I don't really hang out with my clients socially. And he introduced me to somebody and he was really complimentary and he goes, "Oh dude, Ben's my guy. He's the best trainer. Like he like really corrects your form." And I was waiting for him to say something else and then that was it. It was like, "He corrects my form."

• 10:41Speaker 02

  And I remember in the gym, the next day saying like, "Dude, not for nothing, but like, it's a pretty low bar. If all I had to do was correct your form." And he's like, "Oh yeah, dude. Like a lot of people just kind of like want to be my friends. So they don't really correct my form or tell me I'm doing it wrong." And I was just thinking, "How stupid. Like you're coming to me."

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  You want to know if you're doing it wrong, you know?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  I trained a really famous pitcher once and his previous trainer was like, "This guy will never go all the way down on squats. Like he'll never go all the way down." The first time I trained him, I sent the coach a video of him going up all the way down on squats. And he called me back and he's like, "How the hell did you get him to go all the way down on squats?" I was like, "Well, I told him you're not going all the way down." You know, and it's just very, you know, like you just weren't. And so he did, like he wanted to do it well, but nobody's gonna, very few people, unless you're like a gym head, want to, want to take like the path of most resistance. They want to take the path of least resistance, but unfortunately, you know, I always say the hard exercises you hate doing are the ones that work.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  And truthfully in the gym, it's like, you know, if you take the path of least resistance, you're probably not getting very far.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  What I hear when, how you have found to tell people no, or have that confidence to tell people no, is one, you have a very high

• 12:05Speaker 01

  confidence in your particular thing. And you know that area to the better than anybody else, one. Two is, these are people that are coming to you who want you in some ways to tell them no. Like there is, I think, and this would be the third point of that people trust you more when you tell them no. So I guess I would, I would, I'd,

• 12:35Speaker 02

  I would say people trust you more when you tell the truth.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Tell me about that.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Cause I don't think, when you say no, I just want to kind of not push back, but clarify, I guess, that I'm not this militant guy that's yelling at people. Because I am a very voluntary service. I always say that I've made a living selling a service that people don't like very much.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  And so I actually do my best to make something that people don't really enjoy be at least somewhat palatable. So I don't try to be a hard ass intentionally. Because I don't, first off, I don't think anybody would want to work out consistently if you were. So it's, it's not no so much as telling them if they're doing it incorrectly or as just saying, you know, what you're doing isn't the best for you.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, pushing back.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  But one thing about me is I'm a trainer that really, I very much believe in meeting people where they're at. And so I have some clients that eat a lot better than me and track their food and live and die by their workout schedule. And I have some clients that party and eat bad. And I believe regardless of how you live the other 23 hours of your life, it's still healthier to exercise. So not, you know, I'm not the type of person that you have to

• 14:05Speaker 02

  be a gym head or I'm going to confront you.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  To be honest. So there's not a lot of no in the sense of, I actually try to work with people's likes and dislikes because I think for long-term sustainability, you have to like it to some degree. But where I say no is a lot of times clients will want to do an exercise that I know will piss off their injuries and then that's a hard no. Or they'll want to do some stupid workout they saw on social media and I'll have to say, "Sorry, that's stupid." That type of thing.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  And I, that's pretty easy for me to say no, because that's why they're there.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  I think, um, I, I learned a lot about being a communicator and being a trainer from seemingly

• 14:55Speaker 02

  unrelated fields. Like I, I remember one time I had to replace the HVAC system at my house. And I got, the first guy that came in for a quote, came in with his binder. And he gave me five different units I could get. And it was like, they were priced all over the map from like five grand to like 50 grand. And he was just telling me the pros and cons of every HVAC system. And as somebody who doesn't know anything about HVAC systems, he gave this whole talk and I was just sort of like, and then at the end I was like, "So like, which one should I get?" And he was like, "Well, it really depends on your likes and dislikes and goals." And I'm like, "Dude, I don't know anything about this." He left and I'm like, "All right, we gotta call someone else."

• 15:39Speaker 02

  The next guy came in and he was like, "Hey, there's this model that's like cheap. It might do the job, but like then there's this one that's a little more expensive and, but it'll last you longer." And I'm like, "Cool, done." And then I just thought, "That's how I should train." Cause I'm training, I train people that don't live for the gym. They have the level of care that I have for my HVAC system. They just want to be told what to do. And I'm somebody that eats and breathes training. I am a closet nerd. I read research reviews about emerging strength and conditioning research, but I train people that don't give a about that and just want to be fit, feel good. And so if you were a fly on the wall and in my gym,

• 16:24Speaker 02

  trainers would think that I don't really understand training that well. Because I speak in a very simple way. I kind of talk like a bro. And it's intentional because I don't think people want to train with a science nerd. The same way I didn't want that guy's PowerPoint on HVAC systems without a clear recommendation. Most of my clients that I've had for a long time, we never even talk about training at this point. We just come in, I show them something, tell them how many reps to do and we just talk about life.

• 16:53Speaker 01

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• 18:05Speaker 01

  really pleasantly surprised when I went over to your gym the first time, which by the way, the garage gym is not big, you know? It's, it's incredibly tiny, smaller than this living room. And it, I wouldn't say it even has that many pieces of equipment, but I will say it's been one of the best workouts I've ever gotten. But I think that has a lot to do with what you just said, comparing that to the HVAC system. Or we all know what that's like when you go into a store and maybe you want to get, I don't know. I, I went and got a new pair of running shoes. I went to one of those where they like check out your feet and like take a scan or whatever. And they brought me all kinds of recommendations.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  And I just need you to tell me what's, for this kind of mileage, this kind of shoe. And I couldn't get that answer. And so that was really frustrating. And I think the overarching lesson here, because I like to frame things to use your knowledge to help somebody in everyday situations. And so it's if you can be really direct about the recommendation for whatever it is, whatever your answer is, because people like the,

• 19:22Speaker 01

  They like minimizing choices. And I also think they like firm responses. And I think you did that because you were really good at little tweaks to form, being consistent. You were very good at reading the body of what seems to be straining, what doesn't seem to be straining. And it's this kind of very big contrast of people think in, if we use fitness, for example, you have to do all this stuff because there's just, it can be incredibly overwhelming. If you Google, how do I lose five pounds? Right? You'll just see the just huge stuff.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Well, but in here, what I know your methods to be is actually there's, there's some pretty simple things that you can, it doesn't have to be that complex. Like, we're very good at over complicating things. And I feel like that's the same way in communication. We can over complicate, over explain, over justify, when the answer is usually something very simple that can make a big, meaningful adjustment.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  I think social media has significantly over complicated fitness. Because I think that the people that disseminate the info continually try to reinvent and reinvent and reinvent the wheel to have stuff to talk about. And as a lifelong trainer who now, the last couple of years, has participated in the online world, I really struggle because I feel like the prescription's pretty simple. But I sit there and think, how many times can I say this? And, you know, I might, you feel stressed to put a little something on the basics to make it sound better.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  And, you know, I believe at the same time, you know, if I get a high level athlete that only has two months to get in shape, I'm not going to do any of that. Do all the basic stuff. So then I've kind of made a business off saying that. But then I feel like it's not always built for social media. Because how many times can you just say, do the basics? And consistency and stuff, but that's truly it.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  I know that on top of all of your clients, you also train the trainers. You coach the coaches. What would you say are your top three things that you tell these other fitness coaches or other trainers are some of the most important things to do when you're kind of passing on that information?

• 22:05Speaker 02

  First, I always remember that the personal part of personal training refers to them, not you. Second, almost everyone that gets into training does so because they're obsessed with fitness. But trainers have to realize the people that hire trainers aren't obsessed with fitness. So you got to keep it simple.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Three, because those people aren't obsessed with fitness, simple always wins. Complex solutions look better in social media. They might make you sound smarter. But for people to actually stick to it, simple always wins. And I think that fitness people that like to work out try to do as much as they possibly can. So, you know, I'll see online people that work out five, six, seven days a week. And they have these really complicated workout splits. And they're always going to be fit. But they could look and

• 23:11Speaker 02

  they could look the exact same and be just as strong if they did have that.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  And probably have a little bit better life.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Way better life. And so the people that I train are the type that are interested in doing the least work for the most result.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Is that your intention with how you communicate with your clients too? That simple always wins?

• 23:29Speaker 02

  So I always say practicality trumps perfection. And I don't train a single client that works out with me on a set schedule. So a lot of my training philosophy is based on the logistics of my situation. And that, you know, I might see someone on a Monday and say, what's the rest of our week like? And it's like, well, I don't know yet. So, for example, we do almost exclusively full body workouts, which I do for both practical and results driven reasons. I think, you know, for the physique and goals that most regular people have, which is to look lean, but not crazy lean,

• 24:13Speaker 02

  muscular-ish, but not jacked. You know, people hate the word toned, but we all know what it means. And to be fit, but they're not great. Like, fitness people too often grade results based on how much weight can you lift on certain exercises? Where most people that go to the gym don't care. They just want to be strong and have it and be able to be active and participate in life at a high level. So to do that, you don't have to give your life over to the gym. But I think that fitness people just like to. So they, you know, they try to cram as much into it. Which I, I actually think I've become, I've been a trainer for 20 years now.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  And when I first started, I was obsessed with working out. And I've got gradually less and less obsessed to the point that a lot of times I don't even like it. And I feel like that has made me an infinitely better trainer to most normal people. Because my goal is to kind of do the bare minimum and still get the result now. Whereas it used to be to do as much as I could because I liked it and it was kind of my mental outlet. And I've experienced my own burnout from fitness. And I think that's made me much more relatable to my clients. Because I think that we share the same goals, which is wanting to look pretty good, feel pretty good, perform pretty good.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Don't really care to do things at a crazy high level. And I don't want to have to do this more than two to three days a week. To be honest.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  This might be one to chew on for a little bit, but I am curious of what you think. If there was one word that you'd have to describe your communication and how you speak to your clients, what word do you think they would say?

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Honest. And the only reason I'll say that, you said direct, I say honest. JT is one of my longest clients. He also was part of my best man speech at my wedding. And he said verbatim, Ben is the most honest guy I know. And so I can live with that. And by the way, that's not a total compliment. You know what I mean? That's why when you said, you know, Ben's direct, I said, is that a backhanded? Because I think honesty is obviously a good quality. But I think that I struggle sometimes to, like, you know, there's times that brutal honesty is not the best policy.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Right, for sure.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  But I would say that people would say I'm honest, which I can live with. You know, like, but I do want to clarify that that's not a 100% positive.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Right, well.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  That was said sort of as a joke too. Just the way you said direct, like, you know, like, when you say direct in the context of a podcast, it makes me look good.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Well, because I do think it is.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm saying like, you know, we go to dinner later with my other friends and you guys make fun of me for being direct. It's kind of like, you know, sometimes you can be too direct. And so that's the nuance of communication, yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say at least how I relate to it, you know, being direct and being honest are not the same thing. In that, you can say something, you can say a lie very directly. And that's not, and that's not honest.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Though I will say, people who are direct in how they communicate tend to earn the reputation of honesty. Because

• 28:06Speaker 01

  It might be to where it's, hey, look, you always know where this person stands.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  And there are other people who might sugarcoat, who might always give the politically correct answer. And, you know, there's, there's a spectrum of how direct you can be. You're somebody who communicates, I'd say, on that far end of very direct. And that earns that, that idea of, well, it could hurt, but at least I know it's, he's being honest with it. And I think that has to work to, towards your favor in an area like fitness. When you're training the high level type of, you know, very high profile clients that you have. Because they need that level of honesty, because my guess is there are people in their lives that are not being that honest with them.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think, so I used to train a woman who, very famous actress. And I'm still a fan of her, but I haven't trained her for like 10 years. And she sent me a message on Instagram a couple of weeks ago. My wife knows her too, and she's, she's a fan. We love her stuff. And she goes, hey, I got a question for you. What do you think of the vibration plate? Uh, I'm thinking about getting one, but is it bull? I know you'll shoot me straight. And I was just like, yeah, it's bull, but if you like it, go for it. And my wife was like, I can't believe that you said that. And I was like, why? Like that you literally asked me?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  And then the woman replied and was like, ha, ha, I love that. I can always count on you to shoot straight. Uh, I think I'm still gonna get it, but it might end up just collecting my laundry.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  I was like, cool. Like, and, and I say that to say, you're asking my opinion. I also don't care if you disagree and we'll still be great friends.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  You know, I don't judge anyone for not listening to me. But if you ask for my opinion, it was essentially a yes or no question she was asking me. She said, is this bull? That's like, there's only two answers to that.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  And so like, I'll give my, but, or I think the question was, do you think this is bull? So it's not objective fact. It's just asking for my opinion, which is no different than, you know, like on, on social media, trainers argue to the death about which exercise is better, this or that.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  And I sit there and I'm like, I'll tell you what exercise I think is better, but it's said with the same level of care. If you said to me, do you like the barbell bench press or the bench, the dumbbell bench press? I would say, I like the dumbbell bench press. But it's said with the same level of care as if we go to dinner tonight and you say, do you like the chicken or the steak?

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Right. It's still going in my stomach.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  But if you fully disagree with me, I also don't care. I'm just gonna keep talking.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Right. So I want to teach, I want us to think for a moment that we're, we're teaching somebody who's, who's listening. And this person is somebody who, who struggles with concept of speaking directly. Struggles with the idea of pushing back on somebody's ideas. Uh, and they're somebody who really does care. They, they wish they could be like, I don't, I don't care if other people's opinion, but deep down they really, they really do. For you, what's your mindset in how to speak directly to people who have perhaps a higher ego? Or a very, you know, inflated high sense of self?

• 31:43Speaker 02

  It's very important to be direct. I also think it's important to know that being direct doesn't mean you have to be a jerk. And it actually, it's better to not be a jerk. So it's better to be politely direct. But I do think that when people are coming to you for your opinion, it's very important to give a clear opinion and not waver. And I think that too often people, when they're asked for their opinion, particularly from people like the people I train, quickly think, what, what do they want me to say?

• 32:23Speaker 02

  And I think that I try to just say what I think and realize that they're coming to me for this. And that is really important. I, I had a very, uh,

• 32:38Speaker 02

  this is probably like 12 years ago, shortly into my time in LA. I trained this guy who was a really successful movie producer. And he became kind of like a dad figure to me. And I was telling him my struggles with drawing boundaries with my big shot clients. And he said to me, you just have to make them realize that you're the them of training. And that really helped me.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Why so?

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Because one, it really improved my confidence almost immediately because I thought, yeah, I mean, they're calling me for this. And then two, it almost instantly, uh, there's something freeing about just like saying the thing. And it's always gone well. I think a lot of times people hem and haw over what to say because they're nervous about how it's going to be taken. And not always, but most of the time that I've given an honest, direct

• 33:46Speaker 02

  reply to somebody, it's received with thanks rather than pushback.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Why do you think that is? What, like the, the hidden power of when you are, you give the direct, honest answer?

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Here's where it's interesting. I, I, I've talked to you about this, but I read a book called the platinum rule. And the platinum rule, it's a long book. People could read it, but I'll sum it up for them in two seconds. The golden rule is do unto others as you'd want done unto you. The platinum rule is treat others how they want to be treated. And so when you think about that, it really helps your communication because

• 34:30Speaker 02

  think about if somebody were, if you asked somebody for their advice and they gave a roundabout answer and didn't give you a clear, direct response, that would be annoying. So just do the same. But I think that people worry if I am direct or if I disagree, they're gonna think less of me or they're gonna not like me or they're gonna judge me. And most of the time that's just in your head. They're not gonna judge you. They're gonna appreciate that you shot straight with them. And they'll continue to go to you because I think that some people like a yes man, but I think more people like that friend or that person that's gonna tell them what they really think.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  And it's a feel like the, the people that I know in my life, and you're one of them, that I can go to and know that I'm gonna get a straight answer.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Uh, about anything. And it's, and it's nice to know that versus is somebody, or they give me the response that they think I just, I want to hear. Because sometimes that's

• 35:36Speaker 01

  I don't know who that is. Oh, it looks like somebody.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Uh, worker.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Okay. This is fun. So while we're recording, we just had somebody knock on the door and say they have pest control. I gotta say, he had really good techniques. He was a nice guy. And I had to tell him that we were recording and I feel like, I didn't tell him that we were recording. I just said, hey, man, I respect the grind. Now's not a good time for us.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  I know.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  That was one of those like, go away, but also give me your number because I'll hire you for something.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's like, I, I honestly respect the, the way he handled it.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  But the people who, like I know people who, when they have a door to door salesman, they typically won't answer the door. Just the people just don't answer doors really very much, I think nowadays. Or if anybody rings a doorbell, they're like, who could that be coming to my actual door? Um, but also the people who do open it or the people who get on the phone with somebody, they feel really uncomfortable. Like saying no, they'd stand there and listen to him talk, give him his pitch for 10 minutes, you know? And then be like, oh yeah, here's, I, I, I don't know. I guess I'm not, and they'll just listen to it.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  I know we're on air, but

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  Down, down my street, uh, there's these two eight-year-old girls that always knock on everyone's door and sell stuff.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  And Nicole and I buy all of it. It's like they're, they're, they sell me my own rocks. I'll give you a dollar from the rock for my driveway.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  I just can't say no.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, he was, he was, he was great. Shout out to the, the bug man. Uh, not, not a, not a great time, but I loved, he said, when, when's a good time for me to be back? That was awesome. That was great. Uh, anyway, that goes into the feeling of there's something about when you're direct and when you're honest with people, they trust you more. And here, I think that the, the proof's in the pudding. I don't think I've ever used that phrase before, but it's, it's, it works. What for you is the reason why all these high profile names come to you consistently? And some for years and years is because you know, you're gonna be direct. They know you're gonna be honest.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  And I think anytime you're coaching people or training people in particular, you have to have that, that skillset or, or there's never going to be that level of trust.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  For sure. But again, I think that it's important to realize that honesty, directness are not synonymous with being a jerk.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  You can do that and be I would say I'm very honest, I'm direct, and I'm also pretty chill. And, you know, those all work.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, except when somebody's being too direct, so and so, and it's, you know, "Do you like my shoes? No, I hate them." You know what I mean? You're like, "Okay, you could just say that. I'm glad you like them."

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Before we keep going, I want to talk to you about Cozy Earth. It's common that we want to show up for other people in our life. It's also very important that you find little ways, little moments, to show up for yourself. One way that I have done that with my family and my kids is what we do when we have these little moments between right after dinner and right for bed. And when we try and watch usually like a 90s movie, what we've been using is Cozy Earth's, it's called the cuddle blanket. It's probably, it feels like a bear, very friendly bear, is laying on top of you. It's weighted, it's warm, and we're able to, pretty much, put my whole entire family.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  So me, Sierra, and the two kids, all right there, and we get to watch American Some videos, or something that means a whole lot to us. And in that little moment, it feels like everything you're doing is in the right place. I'm glad that I have Cozy Earth as a sponsor, because everything they do is awesome. They have a 100-night sleep trial, and if you don't like it in 100 nights, you can give it back. So that's incredible. But I can tell you the blanket is where it's at. Right now, you can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson for 20% off. Listen to me, if I'm talking to you about a blanket, it's a really good blanket. cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson for 20% off. And now, let's keep going. Okay, so the golden rule is treat others how you would want to be treated.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Correct, which I think is great for leading life morally.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  And just overall good life. Yeah, I'm with you. And then, the platinum rule is treat others how they want to be treated. So it's more into the intention of who they are as a person, how they would appreciate the approach. In other words, I can see it in the aspect of like gift giving. You're not a great gift giver if you're giving somebody a gift that you would want. You know, if I, like, we had Mother's Day recently, and if I gave my mom a gift that, you know, if that was a grill or something that I would want, or like a pocket knife, or, you know, something, a cool, you know, a nice new cooler, my mom would be like, "This is..."

• 41:16Speaker 01

  I think that's a platinum rule at work of showing, treat others how they would want to be treated.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the book, The Platinum Rule, is mainly talking about romantic relationships, but I think that it can be expanded out to any friendship, any working relationship. But I definitely would communicate by the platinum rule, not the golden rule. If I communicated with other people how I prefer, I'd have no friends, because I just like someone shooting straight with me. And I don't really care how it comes off, I'm pretty thick-skinned. I spend my day, I see five, six, seven, eight people a day, and I have five, six, seven, eight different communication styles throughout the day,

• 42:07Speaker 02

  disseminating the same information, just saying it differently. Because I think that certain people respond better to tough love and brutal honesty. Some people respond better to true love and a little softer approach. And I can say the same message eight different ways to eight different people, but it's important to know how people respond best, because it's not always what you say, it's how you say it and what you say. And so, that matters.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  And no, I love all of this.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Because the one thing I want to say is, there's that whole communication thing of, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it."

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  I disagree to an extent, because I always believe it is what you say too. But it's what you say and how you say it.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Right, it can be both.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Do, so I want to focus in on what you just said. You could have five to seven high-profile clients coming through your door, through the, in your garage, through the gym, and working out. And you have to give the same message, you know, five to seven different ways. How, what's your process? If you had to put in some type of formula of how you know first of the style of that person, and how you adjust your message every time, to make sure that there's, you know, an optimized level of trust?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Well, there's a feel-out process to any relationship. So I think in the beginning, I'm always really nice.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  You ask lots of questions.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I ask a lot of questions. So anytime a new client comes in, I start with three questions. So to backtrack, anytime a new client comes in, regardless of what they do in their life, I ask three simple questions. What are your goals? What's your injury history? And what's your past training history? The goals and injury history help develop the actual tangible plan. The past training history gives me a quick rundown of their exercise background, and allows me to meet them where they're at, both in terms of the actual workout, and in terms of how into the gym process. So people that are gym heads, we can get right to it and go pretty hard. People that are newer to it, we start pretty slowly and build over time.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  And so that's important. And then the way they answer those questions also helps me. So the actual info helps me. The way they answer allows me to know their basic vibe and how they approach fitness. Are they somebody that is super hardcore about this? Are they nervous? A lot of people come to the gym with fear, and that's super important to take into account. If somebody's fearful...

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Especially like insecurities.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, if somebody is insecure, or if they're scared of getting hurt, or if they're scared, a lot of women are scared initially of bulking up. I try to put their minds at ease, and I'll be a whole lot more gentle in my approach. If somebody is pretty gung-ho about the whole process, we will start a little harder. And if somebody comes in really as a know-it-all or arrogant, sometimes I like to kind of chop them down at the knees a little bit, and bring them back to life, and make them realize, sort of, this is my dojo.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Right, right, yeah, this is my dojo. I like that. Okay, so I hear that on Feeling Them Out. Is there, I'm just curious, is there one question that you ask not for the answer, but to see how they really respond to it?

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Every single day, yeah. So every workout, you know, trainers love to get really granular with assessments. My assessment daily is asking you, "How are you feeling?" And that could be answered in a number of ways. And so I leave it purposely open-ended. Because how you're feeling could be, "My back hurts, my knee hurts, my shoulder hurts." How you're feeling could be, "I didn't sleep well last night, I got in a fight with my partner, my kid didn't sleep." It could be, "I have a crazy day today, and I only have 30 minutes." Just a very open-ended question, and I don't really care how you answer it. But how you answer it dictates how I'm going to proceed in the workout.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  The goal here, of how we're going to teach everybody listening, to gain that level of true honesty, no matter how difficult the other person is, is I hear you saying, one, there's this feeling-out process, and it starts with open-ended questions. And the one that you have found above all others is a simple, it's not complicated, it's simple. And it's, "How are you feeling?"

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  And it's that question that's going to allow, you're not nearly concerned about the answer, I'd like the substance of it, but the way in which they answer.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the way in which they answer that question of how you feel... Dictates one, what we're gonna do for the workout and two, how I'm gonna treat you today.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  You know, if, if you say, how am I feeling? I'm feeling great. Then maybe we work out really hard and uh, we laugh and we joke. If you say to me, I'm really sad today. I might talk about it. If you say, I'm just really pissed off today, but I don't want to talk about it. I've had workouts with some of the people that I train that I'm friends with. I've deemed it to be the best thing I can do to barely talk. Sometimes I just, I just listen or not even, I, I'm very comfortable with silence, to be honest. I think silence can be great sometimes. I think sometimes people just wanna work out, take it out on the weights and they don't want to talk and that's fine.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Well, I think that that's, that's a wonderful point of.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  And just to piggyback on that, I think as you always talk about communication. I think in general, being comfortable with silence in a working relationship, a romantic relationship, or a friend relationship is very important. I think sometimes people just talk to fill the void and you don't need to. A lot of my best friends

• 48:31Speaker 02

  will just sit on the same couch and just, you know, text and barely talk and you know, I'll, I'll go home and Nicole will say, how's he doing? I'm like, I don't know. You know, and that was, that was a fine hen.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  You know?

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna continue on um, until you and I later go sit on the couch and text other people and hang out. Is this, this idea of creating this trust formula. It's one that open in a question, how are you feeling? That's really looking for getting the information that if I got a piece of paper and says circle, you know, where your pain points or it doesn't get to that. You need that kinda, yeah, you need that level that's actually gonna create that, that vibe feeling of what's going on with somebody. So it's that open in a question of how are you, how are you feeling?

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Next, you're going to be looking at using that to communicate differently with each person. And so this is where you implement the platinum rule of talk to somebody how they want to be, they, how they want to be talked to or spoken to.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Do you think there's anything else in that formula of like what your, either your mindset is when you're progressing? Cause I can tell you as somebody, I don't think I'm, I'm not an official client, but I was trained with you, what, two or three times?

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  And I can tell you, I want to hear your take on how you do it and communicate with clients. And then I'll tell you from at least my side, how, what I, what I noticed in communication from you.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  So you want to know my initial intake?

• 50:13Speaker 01

  No, I wanna, I wanna know um, your process or mindset of, you say, I know that when somebody's asking me a question, are they pushing back? How do I nudge them into what I want them to do? Knowing that it's, this is what you hired me for. This is what I'm here for.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Well, that's where uh, I, I would say my job as a trainer, one thing I want to say or push back on is I feel like you might look at the personal training, this might be like your relationship with a trainer. But I think that you're looking at it as these people come in and tell me what they want and I just say like, that's wrong. You gotta do it my way. And that's not what it is because I'm a, I, I think that no matter how great my clientele is, I'm forever a service worker and I work for them. And so

• 51:15Speaker 02

  I would say that what I do is ask them what they want to work on and then assess what I think they need to work on and do about 80% of what they want to work on and 20% what I think they need to work on.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause you're not somebody who believes you should just be maxing out all the time.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Well, if, if, only if you are somebody that wants to max out all the time. But I think that if your goal is to just, you know, I, I kinda would say my niche in fitness is like what I call just regular people fitness. You know, uh, it's not for the gym heads. I think that in online fitness world, it's thought that everyone is training to be jacked and super lean and most people don't want to be jacked or super lean. They just want to look pretty, you know, like I don't, I don't know how else to say it other than like, I just live in the real world. Like I, I, I want to look like normal people fit and my clients want to look normal people fit.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  And so that requires a much less aggressive approach than most people would lead you to believe.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  You know, I would say um, if, I've always called myself Captain Obvious with all things, you know, like, but uh, the people that I, if, if you just kinda want to look, you know, muscu, you know, people hate the word toned, but everyone knows what the word means. I, I define toned as less muscular than jacked and less lean than shredded. So kinda jacked, kinda shredded.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Something in there.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  That's toned, you know? Uh, and for women, it's probably a little less jacked and less lean.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  And for that, it requires a lot less than what it takes to be like jacked AF, so to speak.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  What would you say, you know, for the person right now who

• 53:10Speaker 01

  they think it's, it's too late, they're gonna start on their recovery journey? Uh, do you think there's a time where there's ever, it's too late to start fitness?

• 53:22Speaker 02

  I, I've trained three women over a hundred.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  No way.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. I've trained three women over a hundred and I actually, you know, this kinda dates me. I've been a trainer for 20 years now. Last month, I went to the funeral of one of my clients.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  No way.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  But I trained her.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  She passed away at 90, but I trained her

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  up until a year before she passed away while she was on oxygen. She had an oxygen tube under her nose and we were still working out in a chair. So, and I trained my grandma until she was 99.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  Uh, I taught exercise classes at the nursing home. And I have seen, I have some clients in their seventies that would bury

• 54:15Speaker 02

  you, to be honest, like really, like really fit.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  And uh, you know, those, those type of people, I don't want to like say that you could start training at 70 and get like that. They're, they're just trained their whole life. But I, I do believe

• 54:29Speaker 02

  you know, there's a lot of cliches with this, but I, I believe it's never too late to start. You know, my, my mom has a best friend Pam. She's always kinda been like a mom to me too. Pam, I posted Pam last year and she's 80. And Pam started working out at 78 and kicks ass.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and I say that uh, I'm not just saying that because she's the, like Pam is, is really.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Shout out Pam.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know, uh, I post my mom all the time.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Who by the way, is a fan of you.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love Mama Bruno.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  And my mom is 76 and you know, is like a black belt in the gym, to be honest.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  So uh, you know, my grandfather, uh, he's about to be 85. He's not in great shape. Um, he's not taking great care of himself and I've been trying to get him to do something different. And his response is always, I mean, I'm 80, I'm about to be 85. What do you want me to do? It's not gonna matter. You know, it's, it's too late. Can people who are older in life and age really make a big difference in their overall like health to feel better day to day?

• 55:44Speaker 02

  This is where like the nuance matters. It kinda depends, you know, so to be hon, like when I say, cause I just like to be honest. All three women that I trained over a hundred, we trained in a chair. So it's not like, you know, it's not like we started working out and all of a sudden they, they jumped out of their chair and were sprinting. We, you know, we stayed in the chair and it was predominantly upper body and core.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Still, that's wonderful.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's wonderful. Um, I, I, a huge part of my business, both in person and my app is women over 50 that are new to the gym. And that is where I believe that strength training is completely life-changing. I had a, I have, I've trained a woman named Sheri. She's 56. I've trained her since she was 50. She had osteoporosis when we started. And over the last six years, combined with a medical approach and taking medicine, she's reversed her osteoporosis by consistent strength training. She does two to three days a week, but doesn't miss. And she's not a gym head by any means, but she's really consistent and has bumped her weights up

• 56:53Speaker 02

  from about eight to 10 pound dumbbells to like 25, 30 pound dumbbells, which is doable, but also not crazy. And if you met her, she, you know, she, she doesn't come off like a gym person. She isn't. She's not like grunting in the gym, but she puts in consistent hard work and it's changed her health. And there's a, a lot of women.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  You know, there's a new push on social media for women in their 40s, 50s, 60s to be strength training for bone density and for getting leaner. And I love it. Where I have a little ax to grind with it is the general sentiment on social media is pushing these women into pretty aggressive training and doing low reps to failure and sprinting and stuff that I just personally think is overly aggressive and not that safe.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  But I do believe that simple, safe, sustainable strength training, done slightly below your threshold, but consistently for a long time will change your life and health.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  What do you, what is the, the, the people who come to you? Um, I'm talking to all, all your followers, not just the, the ones that, um, are, are at your gym. What's generally the one thing that people get wrong about fitness?

• 58:19Speaker 02

  I think they take an all or nothing approach. They think that they have to work out and stick to their program and diet perfectly, or I'm not going to start yet, or if they fall off the wagon, they feel like they blew it. And I think that most normal people that don't like training and aren't passionate about healthy eating would do better with a much more moderate approach and giving themselves a little bit more slack to do things 75, 80% well. Because I think some people thrive off that gym mentality and eating well and counting their calories and stuff. And they

• 59:01Speaker 02

  tend to be trainers and most regular people don't like that.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  And I, I've really been successful as a trainer, I think amongst regular people because I'm kind of more like that. I'd rather, I'd rather be 10 pounds dumpier than count my calories. That's like my worst nightmare. That's like a prison to me. And so, uh, and I would rather, you know, I am a trainer. I preach strength training. If a friend invites me to hike that I haven't seen for a while, I'll skip my own workout 10 times out of 10. Cause to me, the weights aren't going anywhere, but there's more to life than, you know, your workout. I'd rather go catch up with a friend and hike or whatever, you know, that type of thing.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about our place. I got a question. When's the last time that you thought about what you're cooking with your cookware? A lot of the times, what I have learned is back in the day, I was using pans that had Teflon, uh, PFAs, forever chemicals that aren't good for you and your family. And I've had a big switch and I can tell you that our place has made a big, big impact as part of that. Our place is a cookware brand and all of their stuff has no forever chemicals in it. It's great. It looks good. It comes in lots of different colors. Uh, they have this product that's called the Always Pan. That's my favorite. And then they have Perfect Pots and it's rightfully named. Last night we did breakfast

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  for dinner. You ever had that? It's awesome. Well, I was able to use, we use them all the time. Uh, ours are very well loved, well seasoned. And I can tell you, I'm not going to cook with anything else. So if you really care about your cookware, look no further than our place. Right now you can go to fromourplace.com/jefferson and get 10% off site wide. Fromourplace.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 10% off site wide. And they have a 100 day risk free trial, free shipping and returns. Can't beat that. And now let's keep going.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  If there are only two exercises that your clients, people wanting to get more fit could do for the rest of their life, what do you think those two exercises would be?

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  A dumbbell row and a Bulgarian split squat. Bulgarian split squat is black feet on the bench.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Ben, I hate those.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  Bulgarian split squats are without a doubt the most ubiquitously hated exercise in existence, but I would also say that the hard exercises you hate doing are the ones that work the best. So.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Uh, don't tell me that. Those are the ones I actively avoid. Avoid.

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Which is, yeah.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  I definitely, you can tell, look at my legs.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  Look at your legs, dude. I was gonna say.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Why do you think this is only, oh, I hope we're only recording this chest out. Yeah.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  You can do a peck dance, but you're gonna have to wear pants the rest of your life.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. I, I, uh.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I would say, I would say those two because most people have bad posture. Rows really help with that. And, uh, changing your posture will actually have a very big difference on how you look visually. And then lower body wise, I think rear foot elevated split squats, Bulgarian split squats just give you the best bang for your buck. They work, you know, your legs individually. They work your glutes, your quads, balance.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  I hate that answer.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. It stretches your hip flexors. I, I mean, I would say if you did nothing else but those two exercises, it's a pretty good workout.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  All right. I got one out of two. I gotta, I gotta up my.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  The rows.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I'll do, I'll do occasionally do.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  Your workout is bench, dumbbell bench.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  I do legs. I did legs yesterday, but I, I hate, I loathe the Bulgarian split squats because they're painful.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  But you love legs.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I also picked being a trainer as a job. I'm a little off.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, you are. You are a little off. That's, that's, that's, that's how you know. Um, when I.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  I also train 95% for mental reasons. I, I find life to be very challenging a lot and unfair. And I find the gym to be the most fair place in the world. And that's what I love about it. And that what you put in is what you get out. And I have developed a lot of my personal confidence from the gym. Cause I, I got into training at a place where I was like in a very low point of life and got pretty proficient in the gym. And it's a huge part of my confidence. So whenever I feel like life is kicking my ass, I feel like I can kind of take it back in the gym. That's the part that I can control.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh yeah. It, it helps me, uh, just get the stress out for sure. Even if it's just a nice walk outside that like I have a pretty good pace on, just anything, get my body moving. I've, I, my idea is, is always just to, if I can just get my body moving, if I can break a sweat doing something, then I'm, then I'm doing it right. I have a, a question. This is on my own curiosity.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  What do you think people assume wrongly about these high profile celebrities that all come to you for workouts?

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  The main thing is that, the main thing that I see when I'll share a celebrity's workout video or something is people that are hating will say, oh, if I had all the time in the world to work out, I'd look like that too, or I'd do that too. And I think, I don't think these people at all realize how busy my clients are and their travel schedules and stuff. They actually

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  don't, like they're, they're way busier. So I, I think to my, you know, uh, truthfully, like all my strongest, fittest friends don't have a pot to piss in. They just go to the gym all day. You know, like to be honest with you. They just, and, uh, so it's something that I've never, it's like never really made sense to me because I really do believe I interact with some of the richest, most famous people in the world, but the gym truly is an equalizer in the sense that you still got to put in the work. And, you know, I have been with some of my clients that are preparing

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  for something and they're working out extremely hard and running my hill at 9:00 PM at night.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Your hill is no joke.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Only to have someone online go, oh, if I had all the time in the world, I'd do that too. And I'm like, I promise you, you, if you, you would have done it because, uh, you know, go to, go to any gym and all the fittest people aren't rich or famous. To be honest, like they're, you know, uh, they usually, they'd probably be more rich if they spent less time in the gym and they're not like, to be honest.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Right, right. It's a hill thing. Yeah. I do feel that most people of, like friends I know, and certainly part of my goals is, most guys don't really want to be jacked, even though that's what you see in like all the marketing. It's just, I would like to just fill out my shirt. You know, like I want to feel like I feel like a normal person or somebody, um, who just wants to feel good in what they're wearing. I feel like it's as simple as, it's as simple as that. It's not exactly what all the marketing shows.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  When I was in my twenties, I did want to get a little bigger. I started, I was really skinny. And then.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Things changed for me. About 15 years ago, I tore the labrum in my shoulder, but I was starting my own training business and wasn't in a place where I wanted to get surgery. So I just basically didn't work out for 10 months and rehabbed it and stuff. And I lost probably 10, 15 pounds of mostly muscle. And as a meathead at the time, it really killed me. I was like, ah, I lost all this muscle. And the amount of compliments I got, wow, man, you look really good. Have you been working out? You're losing weight. I killed myself to build this muscle and people just tell me I look better when I lost it.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  It's like, well, this is, this is a life lesson. I'm going to tone it down a little bit.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and I think that also speaks to what you said earlier about just the, the life balance. Cause most people, they, I mean, I, I, I love the workout routine that I have here. And I pretty much work out at the house.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  And, but I know what it's like to drive 30 minutes, 15, 20 minutes to a gym. And then go to a gym and try and figure out what you want to do. And that can be really overwhelming. And if somebody's at the station that you want to have, and then you need to, oh, I already gotta look back and get back in time. And so you only have time during the day, especially if you've got kids, do you do it early in the morning or late at night? And it gets to where it's, there's so many variables, it can be overwhelming.

• 1:08:17Speaker 02

  I think all fitness is great. I understand people that like to go to the gym. Some, for some people, that's their outlet. I work out at home. Most of my clients work out at home with minimal equipment and all of my app users work out at home with minimal equipment, just dumbbells and a bench. So that's sort of just the playground I'm, I play in.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  But it's all good.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Or even just body weight.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  Yes. I mean, you don't have to, you know, I, I, but at the same time, if you like going to the gym.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  Then awesome.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Sort of depends.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  I, I think I know some of your answers because I've, I know you well enough. What are the workouts that you think, what are the top two most overrated workout movements?

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  I'm trying to think of a second one besides burpees. I would say burpees and burpees. But what else besides burpees? I mean.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Maybe we just can't get past burpees. Tell me why, tell me why you hate burpees. I love that you hate them.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  I, I just, um, well, by the way, you know, this is, this talks about social media fitness. It's like a controversial that I don't like burpees online. I couldn't possibly care less if people like burpees, but I talk about it through my, so you have to remember, I train like 80% women. So when I talk about stuff, I'm talking about fitness for like average dudes and average women. So burpees now are part of like CrossFit and high rocks competitions. And if you're savage, you can do all the burpees you want, but I call burpees an advanced exercise, masquerading as a beginner exercise. So you'll just see women in a class just told to do 50 burpees,

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  but they can't even do one good burpee. So I'm like, this is just going to go from bad to terrible quick.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a safety issue.

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. They don't have the requisite mobility, but I, I call it like, I just think it's lazy training. People just give people a bunch of burpees to get their heart rate up and make them think they got a good workout.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  And what do you, um, what, what is it that you should do instead of burpees?

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  Like literally anything else. Go for, uh, go for a run, do pushups, do squats, do lunges.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. You told me, you told me once, lunges and pushups.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Pushups. Yeah. Just break the, break the burpee down into like, you know, you could do a squat or a squat jump paired with a pushup. It's that transition that always looks terrible that I'm like, just eliminate that and you're way better off.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Well, it can injure your back like easily.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And again, you know, I can't imagine that you have like that many like gym bros that listen to this. But if you like burpees, go do them. And if you're a beast, like who cares? But I'm talking about the average people that do it to get their heart rate up. I think you can do it a lot more safely.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  You know, I, I see you, and you've been told, introduced to me by others of you're kind of the trainer's trainer. Of a lot of trainers look up to you.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  I'll take that.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  A lot of gym trainers, fitness people. I think that's really telling. It's not just all consumers and people wanting to get fit. It's, it's also people who are training and coaching others. And I, if there was kind of this lasting piece of advice that you would give those people,

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  yeah, what, what would it be?

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  Training is part art and part science. And depending on who you're training, the science or the art might be more important and you have to figure that out. You have to know who cares more about the actual info and who cares more about coming to the gym for the feeling they get. And that's the art. And the art part is inextricably tied to the communication and realizing that, at the end of the day, I judge a trainer almost entirely off long-term client retention. I think the world judges trainers based on who they train, how many social media followers they have, what they look like.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  I could lean into all three of those things, but I don't think that makes me a good trainer. I, what I take pride in is that I've kept most of my clients over 10 years. And I think that that is partly from delivering a good workout and not getting them hurt. And mostly from creating a rapport that makes them want to keep coming back continuously, even though they probably don't like fitness that much.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  What do you think you do differently that others don't when it comes to why you retain clients so long?

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  I think that I'm able to size up what their real motivation for coming is and just kind of

• 1:13:22Speaker 02

  keep that at the forefront. I think some people come to make massive changes to their body. And most come to make minor changes to their body and just feel good, have a mental release, have a fun hour that they don't have to think about the hard parts of their day. The funny part about me is my whole training system is just predicated on the basics. So my long-term clients probably already know what workout we're going to do before they come. But I think they still come, maybe, maybe partly for accountability, but I think that uh, it might be better to suffer with someone else than just do it on your own.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  But I do think that the way to keep people long-term has much less to do about the workout and much more to do with how you interact with them during that workout.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  Well, if it's both science and art, I gotta say you, you do it very well. And, um, to have you here with me, man, is just, um, it's surreal.

• 1:14:33Speaker 02

  I appreciate this too.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  I feel, before we end, I want to just say, because I don't think you probably talk about yourself that much on here. I think you talk about concepts, but I want to say that just as your homie, it's been very inspiring to get to know you because I've met a lot of public facing people that are very different behind the scenes than they are in, you know, in front of the camera. And that's pretty disheartening. And for myself, as somebody, I've always been, as a trainer to famous people, I'm kind of like the guy behind the guy or the guy behind the woman.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  And I'm more comfortable with that, but when I started my training app, I had to get out of my comfort zone and go behind the camera. And seeing you just be this dude that makes videos in your car. And, but you're popular. And then when you meet you, you're like, oh, you're just popular because you're you. And that's pretty not the norm, you know, that's definitely not the norm. And so you, when I met you, I remember you, you know, the door closed and I said to my wife, this kind of gives me hope that I can do this like internet stuff and not be a tool at the same time.

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  And so that is really cool. And I hope that your listeners can know that you're the same guy here that you are like when the camera, the mic or whatever this is goes off.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I appreciate that, man.

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  I appreciate that a lot about you. And it's, and as somebody who, I can't say that I enjoy, like, not that I didn't enjoy this podcast, whatever, it was cool, but like, you know, I, you know, if, if I hit the lottery tomorrow, no offense, but I wouldn't have come done this podcast. I would have just rather gone to dinner, but.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  I probably wouldn't have a podcast either.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. We're all like, you know, this, this internet stuff is not my passion, but it's wild to me how I've been able to impact people through it. And so I do it. And I'm ultimately glad I do, but, but you're one of the people that really inspires me to keep going with this stuff and realize that you can just be a regular dude.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:08Speaker 02

  And like to, to come here, I, I had a, one of Nicole's friends cover one of my clients. She does Pilates and she was going to train, uh, Chelsea Handler today, actually. And, uh, her name's Mary. And, and Mary said, oh, you're traveling to Nashville. What podcast are you doing? And I said, Jefferson Fisher. And she's like, oh, I love that guy. I follow him. He seems like a you, just like a normal guy. I feel like you guys would be homies. And I was like, yeah, we are. That's why we're doing the podcast. And it just, it's a very rare thing, I think, to have the, the size of the following you do and do the, I don't even know what you do, but like the talking and the podcasts and the seminars and stuff.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Love to talk.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  All that public stuff and just be the most normal is cool. Like norm and norm, just know like normal is the best compliment to me.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  But it's been actually inspiring to me. And I don't say inspiring very often because I just don't.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  That's a cool thing. And my only thing that I would suggest for your followers is you just start doing your podcast with your shirt off from now on.

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  As somebody who's seen.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  If we want my views to go up.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  You could definitely, you could definitely, you know, just saying.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on, man. Love you, dude.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  Likewise.

• 1:18:35Speaker 03

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