Psychotherapist: Should You Go No Contact?

If you've ever wondered how a family goes from talking every week to not talking at all, this conversation is for you. Matthias Barker and I unpack why estrangement rarely happens because of one big moment—it usually comes after years of small moments that were never addressed. We talk about what parents often miss, what adult children wish their parents understood, and why the fastest way to push someone further away is to defend your intentions instead of trying to understand their experience. Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: LMNT. Head to https://drinkLMNT.com/jefferson to try risk free. ZocDoc. https://zocdoc.com/jefferson to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. Square. Get up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at https://square.com/go/JEFFERSON BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  There seems like there are more broken relationships now, more than ever, especially between parents and adult children. It's almost near epidemic level. What can we do to repair these broken relationships?

• 0:49Speaker 02

  There's this huge study that came out in 2023. Thousands of people, and I found that one in four people had cut off contact with a family member at some point in their life. And it's funny, because I specialize in estrangement. I'm a therapist. I have clinical practice. I have a group where we have parents and adult kids in the same group. We work through a program for family conflict. And it's like, I don't know. When you first hear about it, most people don't know what the word estrangement means.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  How do you define it?

• 1:16Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, so when I talk to people, it's like, well, I specialize in estrangement. They're like, what's that? And I'm like, well,

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Sounds strange.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  When you're cut off from a family member, that can be one version of it. You don't talk to your mom. You don't talk to your dad. You don't talk to your brother. But it could also be when there's just a bunch of elephants in the room, and it's kind of like you're emotionally just walled off from them. Like, maybe you see them at Christmas. Maybe you see them at, I don't know. Maybe you send like a birthday text. But generally, if you're in the same room, you're keeping it pretty surface. And it just feels like, gosh, I'm basically, we're family, so that I see them when I have to. But I'm not putting in a ton of emotional energy into the relationship.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  I'm with you. So what I see it as, by the way, how we do the show is it really is just a conversation. So if you're curious about something, ask. If I'm curious about something, I'm going to ask.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Cool, cool.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  So I see it, when you go, okay, if we're going to define what estrangement is, if somebody's not familiar with it, that they know what it feels like. It can either be a full connection is closed. They do not respond to my texts. They do not answer my calls. It is closed. Or you're saying there's also the same effect of estrangement is you only see each other at the holidays, and you really don't know each other. That's more of like, what I would think of is it's strained.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Like, we're there, but when we get there, we know this isn't real life. Like, this isn't, or there's something, like you said, elephant in the room that has a... When people are talking to you about it, usually what's the one that they're most struggling with?

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Depends if you're a parent or a kid. I mean, I think that most of the kids that I talk to start in the strained camp. They're just like, man, I feel really exhausted in my relationship with my mom or my dad.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  It's a kid.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Kid, meaning not like young kid, meaning in reference to the parents, but an adult. So an adult kid who's just like, thinking about mom or dad. Maybe I'm in my 20s or 30s or 40s. I'm like, man, I just feel exhausted around my parent. I feel like I can't really tell them things. I feel like they jump in with unsolicited advice all the time. And I'm just kind of like nodding through it, and I'm gritting through it. And then I talk to people kind of on that stage. And then maybe it gets to the point where it's just like, hey, to protect my mental health, to protect my peace, I think I need to set up some boundaries here. And then if those boundaries aren't engaged, accepted, maybe sometimes a parent jumps in and takes that as a gesture of disrespect or as frustrated, as intrusive anyway, then it can really lead to just no contact. And so that's the story I hear most from people maybe our age, and like, maybe people grew up on the internet.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Or is it mid-30s?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, mid-30s, 40s. I mean, and anyone can be estranged. But like,

• 3:40Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Then on the parent's side, I think the conversation comes mostly when that no contact is hit. Because for a lot of parents, they're really surprised. What's really interesting in the lit is like, the thing that often leads to a cutoff estrangement is almost always a surprise to the parent.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  The parent, and it feels very small. So Carl Pilmer out of Cornell has talked about this. Kylie Glius out of Australia. She, both researchers, they've talked about this a lot. It's like, it's something like a comment about your new tattoo.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Something you thought was a compliment?

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, or just a trivial, whatever. Or like, you know, you should probably make a budget. You know, even like a little piece of advice. And then the kid's like, I'm done.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  And then the parent's like, what?

• 4:22Speaker 01

  What was that?

• 4:23Speaker 02

  What was that? Like, and then what is often the case is there was a pattern of behavior that really created a lot of strain in the relationship that maybe the parent was aware of, maybe not. Often, the parent's aware that like, well, I'm noticing my kid pull back. Like, I'm noticing that they're giving me these one-word texts, or I have to call. Like, they're never initiating conversation. I'm always the one asked to initiate. I'm always the one making plays.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  They're pulling away.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel they're pulling away. But then they cut me off for this trivial reason. And they're like, what? You're just discarding the relationship over that?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  And then it feels like, oh, this must be some cultural trend. This is because of TikTok. This is because therapists are kind of turning kids against their parents.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  And I'm like, well, hold on. When you zoom out and hear the whole story, there's often those elephants in the room, and they all had to sit on the kid's lap. And then it just got bigger and bigger until the kid was like, I can't.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  I see it when, for the purposes of our discussion, when we say estrangement, I want to use the definition that's just total cutoff. Like, we're breaking things off. I cannot reach them anymore. I do find that when I first talked about it as kind of a trend, especially on social media, it's like, it becomes a thing that is more accepted. Like, there was a time when divorce was not as accepted. Now it's extremely accepted. And there was a time when estrangement was not. And now, whether the data shows that it's more often or not, it's certainly more verbal. You know, it's more out and about.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Hashtag use more.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so it's become more of like, this is what I'm doing for me and my health. And like, this is a thumbs up for you kind of trend that you're seeing in the data as you being an expert in this. Here's the question I want to ask, because I think you raised a really good point. At what point does a parent know that estrangement is happening? Because my gut tells me estrangement doesn't begin at the last conversation.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Hmm, yeah. There's two versions of this. One is where the kid pulls away and then just stops responding without an announcement, without like a boundary list, without like a mom, you got to do this or this or this, or I'm going to cut you off. Like, there's no negotiation.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  There's no disclosure. It literally is just, we moved. That happens sometimes. I stopped responding to the text, or the text went, you know, green, like, I got blocked. And then the parent is really just left to try to make sense of a bunch of fragments of what happened. And that is disorienting and overwhelming for some of the parents.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  In other words, there's just a, there is an immediate, without announcement exit.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  Yep, just exit. Just enough is enough. That's one avenue. And then the second is there's some, there's some conflict. But like I said, most of the time it's over something small. And then the kid stops talking. And so then that's disorienting, because it seems like, well, we were just talking about the new tattoo. Or they said, don't, you know, get presents for my kids for Christmas. It was just one thing. It was just one snow globe. Like, really, that's it?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  And so they're almost kind of focused in on the last conversation, when really, it's like, the history of the relationship was it. And here's what happens in the mind of many adult kids, is it's like, man, mom won't come towards me and hear me about the snow globe. She's not going to come towards me around this bigger thing.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  If we can't even have a good conversation around something trivial,

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  why would I trust that she can handle the big things in my heart?

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  And so it just feels like, I'm just going to say, hey, mom, you know, you've been intrusive, or you kind of give me advice all the time, or you keep making comments about my weight, or you're really rude to my spouse, or you're critical towards my kids, or you make comments about cleanliness in my house all the time. And then I'm like, am I really going to get anything out of that conversation? If I bring that up with mom, is she going to be like, oh, wow, you know what? You're right. I find like I'm being, you know, the... So it's like, I guess I'm just going to pull back because it's not worth it. And there's this feeling of, I'm going to be totally triggered, totally thrown off for the next few days, because it's going to turn into some sort of yelling match. And then she's going to like, call me ungrateful and disrespectful. It's just going to be, so I'm just going to pull back.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  What I hear is, Jefferson, I already know how it's going to go.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Because based on my history, you know, when I can go back to my inner child of like...

• 8:26Speaker 02

  This is the first conflict we've had.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, at eight years old, and she put me in my room and said, this is what's going to happen. And because I said so, and that element of control, I can't undo. She's not going to, she didn't hear me then. She's not going to hear me now.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Or in any time, I want to make sure in this conversation, when we say, she's not, it's also, he's not.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, mom or dad.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Mom or dad, any point in time. So if we're going, because I really want to make sure that I give tools, that you and I both give tools for the parent who's listening, as well as maybe it's the relative who's listening, brother or sister or child who's listening. So first, in this pocket, I want to talk about parent. So what can a parent do right now who's listening and goes, I haven't spoken to my child in... Three years. I, I, I want there to be something.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Usually when I hear from them, I bet when you hear from them, they're wanting something. They're wanting that door to be open and they're just, they're at an absolute loss.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they don't even know where to start.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, because anything that feels like showing love or opening a door feels like to the other person, control and not listening and shutting the door.

• 9:39Speaker 03

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• 11:06Speaker 01

  How do you, how do you deal with that, that contrast? That's a great way of putting it. Like, is it, is it normal for, and I know I'm asking multiple questions.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  I like it.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Something that I don't like, but this is because you're, my brain's going somewhere else. Is it possible to be raised in the same house, but have two different experiences?

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially if you grew up on the internet.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  I think that's not a small point. I think that if you grew up on the internet, you have a different culture than your parent.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Tell me more.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  You know, bicultural families, like people come from a different country and then they come to the United States, for example, or Canada or something. And it's like the kid is raised in a Western world and then, but at home, it's maybe, let's say, traditional or collectivist values. And as there's arguments that can happen there, where both people are just talking past each other. It's not even necessarily that they disagree. They don't even really understand the conversation they're having.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Is this just, but can we put those as they're just from different generations?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Perhaps, but then we ask like, how? Like, what about the generational divide is the disconnect? And I think that cultural values has a piece of, I can give an example. So, you know, on a accountability, it is very much the value of many millennials and younger, that if, let's say there's some sort of flaw, there's some, there's something you did that was hurtful in a relationship. Like, the best thing to do is that we both kind of be able to be honest about our failings and our shortcomings, that we seek to have accountability and repair of trust. And what that includes is something like an apology and something like owning when we've made a mistake so that we can hear maybe the experience of the other person and how they felt and how that was hurtful. And part of that trust rebuilding process is that humility, that essentially kind of almost being eye level,

• 12:47Speaker 02

  being able to acknowledge we're both human, we both make mistakes and how can we love each other better? That is not necessarily the cultural value of many people that didn't grow up on the internet, that especially if you're from like a rural culture, like let's say that you didn't live in a big city, you were from the South, like the expectation was that actually there's a bit more of a hierarchy, you know, within, between the parent and kid. Parent and kid aren't eye level. Parent and kid, like there's some authority, even for adult kids, there's some sort of authority. And the value of like enduring and overlooking, let's say imperfections.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Is a higher value than calling out every tiny little conflict. The old phrase of like, let's not make a mountain out of a molehill, or let's kind of pick our hill to die on.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  It's very much kind of the cultural value of some parents where it's like, you know what? Let's just kind of move past it. Let's move past it. And that's meant as a gesture of generosity, of not trying to, you know, make a huge deal out of every point of friction. Trying to actually extend tolerance and, and kindness. When a kid kind of use that as, well, that's inauthentic. That's like me faking and performing and, you know, pretending like we're just kind of going back to normal, like water under the bridge. And then the parent means that. I was like, well, hold on, I'm actually trying to zoom out just from like this one conflict to the larger way that we see each other. Like, you know, you're my son, you're my daughter. I'm, we're family. Family's supposed to be able to endure

• 14:08Speaker 02

  past these trivial little things. The conflict that, you know, younger kids have with that is like, well, sometimes they're not always trivial. These aren't always just scraps and scrapes. Sometimes they're patterns. And you could say, well, that's just a paper cut. But well, hold on, there can be death by a thousand paper cuts.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  And it seems like it goes in one direction more often than the other. Feels like, well, there's a disproportionate amount of times I'm supposed to put water under the bridge. But then when I have something, it's viewed as disrespect, or it's viewed as me being ungrateful for the sacrifices you made. There's an asymmetry in that. So you can see already, like, there's kind of different cultural-ish values, even though they're minor.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  That both people are almost trying to express love to the other person through their worldview, but it's being totally missed. And I'm not saying they're equal or they're relative. Like, I think we, I think we do need to take accountability. And then I think there's also times when we need to be understanding that, you know, someone doesn't have to be exactly like us or acknowledge every tiny little thing for us to be close. We can be compassionate. Do you have an opinion on that?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Well, what I see is, you know, if we're going, what do they say in therapy? Like, the hardest thing about parents is that they had parents. And so we're not talking just even cultural values or generational values. It's also the household in which they grew up in, you know?

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Like, why would I, nobody did anything for me. Why would I do something for you? Nobody apologized to me. You know, you think that's hard. We're comparing the experience of.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  That is huge.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  You think, like, what I hear a lot is, and I can remember even my mom doing this. She was like, you think this is yelling? This isn't yelling. You know what I mean? Like, if you, if you had heard what I grew up with, you'd see how nice I am, how good I am, how, you know, because she's comparing that experience, which doesn't mean that it's invalidated. It just means that, what you said, there's that asymmetry of alignment. And so what can that do? That is, if we're, we're saying, all right, we're in this box of adults, what could be leaving adults in more of like, I don't know what, what in the world I did, is because they're seeing it through the lens of how they were raised in their culture.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I gave you a world that was 10 times better than what I had.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you know how like, how much more I do?

• 16:29Speaker 02

  And they're telling the truth.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  That's the point.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  That's the point. Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. They're, they're, that's not to be invalidated.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  No, two things can be true at the same time.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly. So it's not a but, it's an and. And your child's experience doesn't, doesn't mean that all of a sudden I see how amazing of a parent you were. I can still have this experience that was affected by me. So what I'm hearing is, you know, how do you know when estrangement has happened? It's not the last conversation. It's something generally that happened weeks, if not years before, that this, just the camel that broke.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  This is the straw that broke the camel's back.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  The straw's back.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a brutal camel.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's rough. That's rough on the straw. Oh, and, you know, we're dealing with, here's the point for adults. Both perspectives are true.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  The, the minute you go, that's, that's stupid. Well, that's, that's you being childish. That's breaking the connection more than you can repairing the connection. And I do want to talk about repair. I want to first talk perspectives. So that would be something from the adult of going, I'm totally baffled.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Can I, can I add to that?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Just please. It's like the, the both and is hard because so often the experience of the kid is like, every time I try to bring up a complaint, the conversation immediately gets deflected onto, I had it worse.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Or you always.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Or yeah, or you always, and oh, you have a problem with everything. You're always, all you do is focusing on my failures, my faults. And so like, when we say like two realities at the same time, we're, we're also not saying I need to almost kind of like minimize or downgrade the actual complaint that I'm feeling. It's like, it's hard to hold two things at the same time. Both parents and kids need to do that. It's not just the kids being asked to do that. I think the parent needs to hold that, yeah, I, I did, I had it way harder. And that doesn't mean my kid didn't experience hardship.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  You know, like, I never had anyone apologize to me. So how am I supposed to know how to apologize to my kids in all these like fancy therapeutic ways? I didn't have any of these parenting books when I was growing up, or when I was raising them. I didn't have anyone be all like kind and gentle parenting, whatever, yada, yada, yada.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  The world's lost their mind.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I'm, I'm supposed to be like passing this test I never got the study guide for.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  And.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Everything's soft now.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Everything's soft.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Everything's soft and emotional and.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  And you find a complaint with everything. Everything's trauma. And so I'm like, here's the thing. I don't actually care to dispute any of those lines.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  It does no good.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  I'm just like, because that, in my mind, that doesn't actually matter. It's almost beside the point. I'm like, there's some hurt in their heart. Are you curious to know what it is?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  And then can you grieve with them? That's the word I actually think makes the most sense. We talk a lot about validation. Validation is hard because it's like, well, am I agreeing with them? Am I, am I like validating their negative narrative? The, the word I think is actually closer to the center is, like, for example, mom, I never really felt like you encouraged me a lot as a kid. You were always really hard on me about grades and I just felt like nothing was good enough for you. It's like, in my mind, I'm thinking, I was just trying to help you. I was trying to help you succeed. Like, what do you mean? I didn't love you? Like, what about all the times that I like, I cooked for you and I cleaned for you? And I was at every game? Like, it's easy to go down that path of defensiveness. But then to back up and be like, can I grieve that there was something they desired from me?

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  There was love they didn't experience from me that they wanted to experience. That doesn't mean I didn't express it.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  I might've expressed all the love I had in my heart, but they didn't receive the love, experience the love that I had in my heart and the way that made sense to them. And so I can back up and I can say something, not like I'm agreeing with all their negative narrative. Like, oh, you're right, honey. I never loved you. You're not saying stuff like that. What you are saying is like, tell me what it was like when I was really getting on you about grades and you just really needed my encouragement. What were some of the things you really wished you could hear from me in those moments?

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  And then kids like, well, I just wish I was good enough without having just to perform for you. Oh, honey, I, I clearly did not do a good enough job of making sure you knew how proud I am of you.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  And that's powerful because you didn't acknowledge some negative thing like, oh, I wasn't proud of you.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  You're not undercutting your love. You're not getting defensive. And you are acknowledging that just because I had it in my heart, it doesn't mean, just because I sent the mail, it doesn't mean they received it.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're not putting up, but what about, you know, getting defensive like that?

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Well, I tried to do this. I tried to do this.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  So let's put it in.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  I want to put in a really digestible package.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Good.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Specifically for the adults who are going, Jefferson, Matthias, we feel lost. And how do I first have this kind of perspective into the adult kids that are listening? We're going to get there too. So this is, this is just really with adults. Because there's been some kind of disconnect and I, I find that I hear more from parents.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Complaining and concerned and really hurt about estrangement than I do the adult kids.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Adult kids are more like, it's just, it is what it is.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Well, and that's because the parents are surprised, right? That kind of goes back to point.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  So there's a lot more hurt. There's a lot more hurt. So how do you keep an open door with this? What we've heard is, let's say, one.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  You need to validate the experience. You agree with that?

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I use the word grieve, but validate, same thing. Sure.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Okay. And so when we say grieve, what's going to come to my mind is that I need to be really sad. I don't feel like I should be really sad because I have a hard time accessing sad. That happened years ago and we're talking about something years ago. So when, when we say, I think grieve is the right word.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I guess my definition for grief is responding authentically to reality. Meaning if there is sadness or shame or fear, if there's brokenness, I'm letting that reach my heart. And then I'm responding authentically to how that makes me feel. So that might be sadness in some cases.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  In other cases, it might be, um, I think shame, but we got to be careful with shame because if we, I don't know, indulge that too deeply, then it turns the attention back on us. I think there is some times to like connect to our kids sadness. That's what underneath all the spiky anger. Because what we feel as parents is like, gosh, they're so angry at me. And then what I'm trying to show actually is there's a lot of sadness under there. And if you can connect to that, that's actually going to let it kind of almost like process through. And then you can get to the calm and to the peace and be able to feel connected again.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  I heard this saying once that it was something along the lines of, um, I sat beside my good friend anger and anger responded. My name's not anger, it's grief. Like it's, you know.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  That's what I mean.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  That like angry, I'm just so mad at them, but really underneath it is really a lot of brokenness and sadness.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  We have anger too, because we feel as parents, uh, the parents I talk to feel angry.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  By the way, so.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Three, yeah, three little ones.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Three. I got two. You're crazy for them too. I got, I got two.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Wow. And I'll just say like, that doesn't make me an expert on this because my kids are young, you know, it's like, I'll learn my own lessons in this as I get older.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  But your insight comes from the thousands of people, in the same way that we've had, um, we hear from a lot of people because we're in a position to hear from a lot of people. So if we're going to give them a breakdown, it is one, instead of defending, you need to validate or let's say affirm or grieve the experience. Which means it is, tell me how you experienced this. And when they tell you it's not fighting it, it's what?

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think it's grieving it. It's, it's engaging it. So you have a good way of saying that.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Conversations starters. Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Sure, sure, sure. So I think what this often just practically, to get really concrete, is like what this often starts with some form of a text or a letter. Usually when you're cut off from a kid and they're not speaking to you, you're either sending a text, you're sending a letter. If you don't have their address or something like that, we can talk about those particulars, but.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  You're saying something along lines, I actually have a step by step process, like a template that I teach parents of these certain steps. And these steps aren't just like, say this here, say this there. Chat GPT could do that for you. But like, what I did is I asked actually 40,000 adult kids, what do you wish your parents would say in a letter? Well, if you have a hard relationship with your mom or dad, what do you wish they'd say? And so we built the template out of those responses.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  What was the number one thing that you heard from these kids?

• 24:30Speaker 02

  I wish that they'd see my pain. That's what they say generally. What they mean concretely is a bit more specific than that.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  What they mean specifically is that they would take accountability for some of the pain that they've caused in some of the ways that hurt ownership. That they would acknowledge some of the pain that I've been through. And that they would see some of the current patterns that are rule boundaries in our relationship and take those seriously. There's not a demand that you have to agree with everything that I agree with, or you have to change all these sorts of beliefs.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  But it is like, we have to have a negotiation over what it looks like to stay and be close. And if the expectation is that I just let everything kind of go under the bridge and then I just kind of get on the page with however you want this relationship to feel and look like, I'm not open to that. So it is pay attention to what matters to me and listen to what hurt me. That's the deeper thing. And we've seen just through my group, because I have probably about 2,500 adult kids and parents in this program that we go through at estrangement.com.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  And we've watched parents attempt that in different ways, because I think a lot of parents want to. A lot of parents want to see their kids pain and attend to it, but there's speed bumps and snags. And they say things one way and their kids hear it another way. And so what we found is there's really specific ways that kids can ingest it and hear it that are really helpful. The first way is if you can take a specific regret and then talk about what you wish you did different. So instead of, you know, son, I'm sorry if I ever did anything that hurt you. That, that doesn't go very deep because it's so general, because it's so global and sweeping, it doesn't penetrate the heart very closely.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  So affirmation, whenever you're validating some experience, you need to be specific. More specific, the better, probably.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  More specific, the better. And you're using it as an example, meaning like, you know, uh, honey, I remember when the divorce happened. We sat at the table and we were just quiet at dinner that night and then you went off to your room. I should have checked on you. I was, I was really, yeah, I could have checked on you. I, I was really overwhelmed that night, but man, you were a kid. If I was overwhelmed, I'm a grown up. You must've been even more overwhelmed with what was happening.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  I didn't know the words to say, but I should have tried.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  If I could go back and do it differently, I would.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I wish I had knocked on the door. I wish I asked questions. I wish I had. And it's not just, oh, I wish I knew what to do, or I wish, uh, I could have did it. It's, it's more specific. It's like. I wish I kept trying so much of the time is the language that lands better.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  So I have a framework that I've been teaching on how to repair.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  After a rupture.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  I want to hear it.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  And estrangement is definitely a very big rupture.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  It's good.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  And so I want you to critique it for me now that I'm a estrangement expert with me. Okay. First is there has to be ownership. You have to take accountability. Say, I did that. That happened. Which is really hard for some people. It's not mean, it doesn't mean you're right or I'm wrong. It's that happened. So you have to have that kind of ownership of it. Second is affirming the feeling. That sounds frustrating. That sounds hopeless. I hear you. I hear all of that. It's like you are simply just, how you feel is absolutely okay to feel.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  It's not trying to tell them to feel a different way about it. And third is what hurts you hurts me. So.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Meaning I hate that I've caused you this much pain and I had no clue about it. I hate that I have like, you need to show that your pain. Makes a difference in how I'm currently feeling in the present, even though it happened in the past. And then last is next time. Meaning if I could do it differently, what I would do is, um, you know, it's some kind of action step. Or what I hear or what I've learned is that this is, I'm not going to bring this up anymore. This is something that we're going to leave and I own that I, I, I used to bring that up, hearing you, I'm not going to do that anymore. Of, and when you package it that way, without a single, but what about, but yeah, but, or beginning with that's not, that's not true.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  That's not what I said. That's not what happened.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  That kind of stuff, you know, your best efforts got you here.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  All right. And so what are you going to do about it? You can't say that all I did was perfect when you're, when you're right here. So I need the, the Matthias.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  I love it. The one, um, sub point I put under your first step of own it, is you're owning the facts, not their story.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Meaning if they come to you and say, you never loved me. I'm not owning that they, I never loved them.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Uh, you, all you care about is yourself and you just love me if you can control me. You're not owning that their label, you're not owning their negative narrative, you're owning the facts. And the facts of the matter is sometimes there were ways that we could have expressed love. And ways that they could have received it better. Meaning, uh, like, like take the one of like, oh, you only love what you, you know, if you can control me. Like, honey, I, I feel like there's so many times that we got in arguments and I was trying to fix the situation. When I should have slowed down and just make sure you felt how much I loved you. And I should have been more present with you. I'm so sorry.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  It's like trying to find those little nuggets, those little places where there is a grain of truth, even in the negative narrative. Because even in these hyperbolic exaggerated accusations of, you know, something intense like, mom, you're a narcissist. To be able to slow down and say like, you know, honey, I bet there were times where, I remember when the divorce happened, I was really overwhelmed and focused on my own pain. That, that season where there was addiction, that season where, uh, there's lots of different people that I was dating that were coming in and out of the house.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  I was, I was absent. I was not around. I was not present.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  I was focused on myself. There was things I missed with you that were really important. You're right. So notice we're owning the pain, but we're not owning the label. We're not owning the narrative. So many of us get stuck at the beginning of this process because we're like, well, I have, we have to get on the same page on the story first. And then I can take accountability once we're being reasonable. But then it's like, well, you can actually dodge the label. You can dodge the narrative and just go right for the heart. How would you explain that?

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Well, I want to make sure I don't, I don't misunderstand. You said you would own, to me, it would make more sense that you own the feelings, but you don't own the facts. Or do you, do you flip them?

• 31:02Speaker 02

  I flip them, but tell me what, how you see it. Maybe we're saying the same thing different ways.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Because sometime I don't, uh, I don't agree with the facts. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't agree with.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Can you give me an example?

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So let's say somebody goes, you were never around. You're like, what are you talking about? Yeah, I was around. I, I did this. I did this. I did this. I did this. Look at all these.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Those are the facts. Right. So, yeah, that, so we are, we're using different terms for saying the same thing.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  That, that's a story. That's a label. You were never around.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  So that's not factual. So then what are the facts and can I own that? Even if it's 5% true, can I find the 5% and own that?

• 31:39Speaker 01

  I like that a lot better. Let's find, let me find the 5% and own that because we won't. We're not gonna reach there in the 95.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  It's not all or nothing.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Were there times I wasn't around? Probably.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yes. Could you have been around more?

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Or was I just not around as much as they wanted?

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 03

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• 32:36Speaker 03

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• 32:59Speaker 01

  I think what we're both saying, um, which.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  This is cool. It's cool putting frameworks together and.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, by the way, yeah, this is like, uh, we're such nerds.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  We're in the laboratory.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're in the lab right now. That's what they, what do you, y'all, what did they say? We're cook, we're cooking?

• 33:16Speaker 02

  We're cooking.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  We're cooking?

• 33:17Speaker 02

  What do those kids say?

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're cooking.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  We're chopped.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're not in our 40s yet. We're still kids. So what I'm, okay, the, the, a bright line rule that I'm hearing is affirming their feeling has nothing to do with agreeing with their feeling.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Bingo, yeah.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Like you don't have to, you, you don't have to agree with how they feel to validate how they feel. So what are some, when you hear, when somebody goes, you never cared, you never showed me love, you never did this.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  And I, what I, what I want to hear from you is instead of this, I want you to think of saying this.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, instead of doubling down on your good intention, instead of doubling down on what you tried to do, you're gonna look for that 5% that could be true. And often, that has to do with what they desired, what they experienced, how they felt. And what you can say and often is something like, there were times that I wasn't there. There were times when I was harsh, there were times when I was controlling. It sounded like you needed blank from me. And I didn't do enough of that. Even if you did a lot of it, because I mean, so like an accusation of, uh, you never encouraged me. You could think, well, I doted over you. What are you talking about? I encouraged you all the time.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  You could think, oh, okay, well, I didn't encourage them as much as they desired or in the way they desired or enough. That's okay. Like, we can't mind read. We're not over here like with some standard that we were supposed to be perfect. But what we can acknowledge, and that's what, what I mean by grief, when we grieve with them, as we connect to, oh, there was a part of their heart that wanted to feel more encouraged, wanted to feel more affirmed, their personality, their temperament, maybe it's different than my personality and temperament. They needed more verbal affirmation. Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I didn't do that. I, there were so many times that you were questioning how I felt about you.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  That, as a parent, that's on me. Not because I can control everything or can read your mind, but because my job as your parent is to make sure you know how much I love you.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Right. No, I mean, I, to.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  How would you boil that down into something more concrete?

• 35:41Speaker 01

  So, what my mind says is, instead of the, I didn't care enough. What are you talking about, didn't care enough? What do you mean, I, I didn't love you? Do you know how much I provided for you? Do, what do you think your grandmother did when I was, you know, instead of that, which is all defending? Why? Because the complaint by the child, the adult child would say, you're not a good mom. And so that's what you're hearing.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  So you're feeling that I'm not a good mom. You go, I'm not, and so the script, the story that you're fighting against is that you're not a good mom. And you're like, of course I am. Do you know what kind of mom I had in my life? You know, you think, I, you think, if I'm a bad mom, what do you think I had? And so when the child is saying that, what the mom is hearing or the dad is hearing is, you are not a good dad, you are not a good mom, which is spiking the very fear.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  That like hits on the, they're gonna get flooded, they're gonna get defensive because I find that those are types of things when we talk about, I didn't get enough love, attention, all the, the needs, you know, in my life. It's what is really a bid for connection, they hear is criticism.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Or like highly sensitive of criticism.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Sometimes it comes out spiky.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it's going to, it's gonna be messy. And it's like, how do you get past, how do you have the mindset of just because my child needs something from me does not make me a bad mom? It's like, you can, there is enough grace. What would it look like if this conversation had enough grace that I can acknowledge the pain that my child or the experience my child had and still know that I was a good mom? You know, of like, both things can be true because I did the best I could with, you know, with, with, with what I had. So that's usually of like, the zinger that just rings the bell for a lot of parents.

• 37:45Speaker 02

  I think there's a lot of fear.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  I'm a bad mom or I'm a bad dad. And so they fight really hard against that one. Really, it's right there in front of you of just affirming of, I, I hear that, if that was, if that's how that came across or if that's what you felt, I don't blame you for feeling so frustrated and hurt and all that. I hate that that's how you feel that. I would never have wanted that. And knowing what I know now, what I could have done, what I should have done, what you needed from me more is, you know.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  I love everything you said. That makes total sense to me.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  I love everything you said.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks. I was just like nodding along. I wasn't even thinking of my three step thing. I was just like, man, you're vibing. I, okay, well, one thing I'd add to it is like, if we're going to try to treat this conflict with our kid as the determiner of whether I was a good mom or dad, like if we really do put that aspect of our identity.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Oh, this is really good. I think this is it.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Right?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Like, I think, well, to me, it's like, I'm, my brain's spinning on that. So keep telling me.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. If we're gonna put that in their camp, we're gonna be desperate in litigating and defending and arguing. And it's gonna be completely sideways from what the kid is hoping for.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  You gave me that word, litigating.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  You're a lawyer, you love that.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you gave, you, that made me tingle. I heard that word.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  It's a different conversation.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's not use that word. Let's not use that word.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, trigger word.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  It's a different conversation. It's not even a bad conversation. Like so much of the time I hear parents like, when do I get to actually talk about the pain I've been through or the hardship? Or when, like, my mom was 10 times worse or my dad was 10 times worse. And I often say it's pacing. It's not that you never get to have this conversation, you just need to swallow your experience and just like fall on your sword or grovel or anything. It's pacing. And if you're in a highly tense circumstance with your kid, to the point where they don't even want to speak with you, we have pace. It starts most often with attending to their pain, with grieving their losses and unmet needs. And then as trust is built, you have the foundation, the kind of the nest to be able to hold the relationship. You can talk more about your experience.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Here's one thing I did want to mention to you. I want to ask you to this. What do you do, what do you tell specifically mothers whose son has married and they have a daughter-in-law now? Who has cut their son off from them? In other words, this, this daughter-in-law, for good intentions, bad intentions, all the above, has said, I am the person who's gonna say all the experience of what you are to think and I'm gonna cut everything else off. What do you, is that, one, is that something you see?

• 40:28Speaker 02

  So common.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  And then two, what do you tell these, these mothers?

• 40:32Speaker 02

  There was a study by Josh Coleman and colleagues, he's a, he's a friend of mine. He interviewed 1,000 mothers and 80% of them, when you asked them like, well, what's causing the estrangement? Cited either, uh, most often a daughter-in-law, but, but the, their child spouse or their ex-partner as essentially sabotaging or, um, uh, kind of pointing. Yeah, an ex-husband.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  After divorce.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. Uh, pointing their kid against them. And only 16% of those mothers thought that their behavior had something to do with it. And so this is so, so common, in particular with mothers in particular. And I don't really have an agenda of trying to say like, well, no, it's not that, the, the daughter-in-laws are fine or, or you need to look at your own stuff. Like, it can totally happen. It can totally happen where you marry into a new family, there's a totally different culture, totally different milieu. The daughter-in-law has a negative experience of the mother and then starts to have conversation. And that kind of starts to feed into like a negative view of the family or of a parent.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  Totally happens. My thing that I always ask parents to look at is like, um, lies, let's say it's a lie. Lies can't take root if there's not hurt in the soil. So, for example, um, I don't have a dog. Do you have a dog? You don't have a dog? I don't see any dogs. I don't see any dogs.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not against dogs, but we're just.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, can you imagine the hate we'd get if we just announced we were, Jefferson and the Thizer are against dogs?

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh my goodness, that would be, that would be the downfall. That would be the last podcast we ever did.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  No, I, we love dogs.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  Okay, so golden retrievers, uh, let's say.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  This episode is sponsored by.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Dogs.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, pedigree.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Let's say that, uh, I don't know, someone's trying to convince you that your golden retriever hated your guts.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  You know, like this buddy, buddy, the dog actually hates you. You would laugh because there's not even a kernel, like, there's no possibility that's true. There's no context for that lie to even take root. And so what I know, and this is also true in prudential alienation, is that if a lie is taking root, then my first question is, what is the hurt in the soil? If you take accountability for the hurt in the soil, the facts in the soil, the lie starves and can't take root. Here's an example of it. So I was talking to a dad, this is kind of reversed from moms, but I was talking to a dad where,

• 42:47Speaker 02

  went through a hard divorce, his daughters moved to a different state with his ex-wife. And the ex-wife was like, your dad didn't follow us here because he loves money more than you.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  And he's like, I'm trying to get a job, I actually want to move up there and be near them, but I have to like, it's not just as easy as like, you know, book the moving car, like I need to work on this, that and the other. So it was six months before he could get over there. And then the daughters by that time were like, nope, mom said that you basically don't even care about us. It's all just about money.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  The parent, the ex, I hear typically is the ex's has been whispering in their ear.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that happens men and women, like that can happen all sorts of places. It's very similar to the daughter-in-law dynamic. And so then what I told them is just like, what does it look like for you to take responsibility for the hurt that's in the soil? And he was like, well, what do you mean? And I'm like, what would it look like for you to tell your daughter, you know what? You're right, there were six months where I wasn't here. What was it like for you to go into a new school? To go into, I know more friends. I bet that was kind of overwhelming and you didn't have your dad. What was it like for you? And that's what I mean by grief, because she might say it was overwhelming. I was lonely, I was sad, I was confused. And you go, honey, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that happened. When that happens, the walls soften and then the narrative is more open to editing.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  And then you can have conversations not to litigate, I agree. But I just find that if you get to the hurt underneath, the lie becomes way less relevant. So in the daughter-son dynamic, it's like, instead of debating whether you're like, uh, controlling, or you secretly hate this, or you're narcissistic that. It's like, what is the hurt in the soil and what can I take ownership of? Even if it's 5%, because the more I do that, the more it infuses health, positivity, truth, understanding, and creates more room for conversation. That's not to say we can control the outcome of that. We can't control another family member, or a daughter, or son-in-law, or an ex into, and sometimes there's deceit and propaganda that's beyond what we can do.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  But that's our first move.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  What do you say to the parents, the, the mom who could be listening going, yeah, I've, I've done that. I have owned what I've owned and I can't help that this daughter-in-law is spreading lies. She's gaslighting, she's walling me off. And my son is in a no-win situation. If he starts reaching out to me, he's going to have hardship at home, you know? And if he takes her side, it's going to be hurting the mom, you know? What do you, has there been any advice that you've given to these?

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, here's how I'd phrase it. You're gonna, the play I think makes the most sense is to try to get into family counseling. And you can do that through letters, or if you have the opportunity to do phone calls. And here's how you phrase it. You say, hey, you know what? I'm realizing that there's some patterns in our family, like just through, I think our dialogues, I've realized there may be some patterns of unhealth in our family that have kind of come to light, I guess, just in our conversations. I want to know what those are and really work on them and take ownership for my part in it. I want you to feel relaxed around me. I want your wife to feel relaxed around me. And I'm grieving that there's been so much hurt and so many elephants in the room. Here's my idea. If we could go to family therapy together, I think that therapist would really help me stay on track

• 46:04Speaker 02

  to pay attention and understand the hurt that you're holding, or some of the patterns that you're realizing might be making it hard for us to feel close. My goal is that we can feel close and relaxed together, that you get to be completely honest about what you're feeling, and that you can trust that I'm really listening to you. I know that's a mouthful, but something in a text or a letter like that has had so much more success than trying to convince the son that she's being unreasonable, or trying to go directly to the daughter and have like a big Facebook DM back and forth argument with her. So like,

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't DM on Facebook.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  When you have that third party that's interfering, I really feel like you need to get all the parties to the table. And often having either a therapist or, or someone that can help slow everyone down, keep a good pace, and make sure that criticism or talking over each other doesn't happen is your best move.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  When I think of the situation, and I mean, like you, I've had moms just crying, saying, I can't, I can't, I can't reach out to my son. Which is heartbreaking.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  What I try and

• 47:14Speaker 01

  give, because that's such a huge thing,

• 47:18Speaker 01

  is the understanding of

• 47:23Speaker 01

  if you've already reached out and really you're focused on trying to heal the family rather than fix her. You know, if you can push it from that mindset, is not the what if, but it's the even if. Instead of what if they never talk? What if I don't, what if they don't answer? Even if they don't, even if you never talk to them for three more years, even if it is. Like, what are you gonna? Because there has to be such a proportion, like unproportion amount of, now that this person is removed, who I carried, who I, you know, gave to is now gone and does not, no longer needs me. Like, that's a huge element of a loss of identity. Like, who am I if I can't, yeah, if I can't do that?

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  That's because there's sometimes there's just, the truth is, we can talk about this for as long as we want. It's not going to make that, that husband or daughter, you know, not be who they are to cut off your child from, from you. Or, you know, to, to open that door back, because I know it's been, you know, I have somebody who, it was his younger brother who got married. And she hates the whole family and has cut him off from everybody. So, you know, what do you do? You, you have to make sure you're leaving the door open more than you are, than you are closing it. One thing I'm picking up on is when you're going into the mode of like explaining and talking, your voice gets really quiet.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  So if we're going to say this, how do you, what does this kind of stuff sound like? If it's in a text or a letter, or, you know, anything that is a very text-based transaction, you're not going to be able to whisper, right? So I do think less words is better.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, be brief.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  What would you say to, I like a voicemail, if they'll allow you to have a voicemail?

• 49:17Speaker 02

  That's a good idea. I don't think about that as much.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  I'm going to use that and incorporate that. I think when you can hear someone's voice, you hear the emotion in their voice.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  That, that way they will, you know, you hear pain.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Ah, Jefferson, I'm taking that.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  You can't, you can't read pain.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  I'm frustrated, I didn't think of that.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  No, it's good.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  You're right, voicemail, yeah, that should be at the top of the list.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can, and you can check out my profile on astringent.com.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is good.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Square. I want you to think of your favorite cafe, your favorite restaurant. For me, it is the little bitty lemonade stand that I passed by in our neighborhood yesterday. And I went and the sweet little, perfect little girl had Square connected as a little chip, card reader that was connected to her mom's phone. Mom was there in the back. And what I have to tell you that I love is using Square for all businesses from big to small. It's versatile, it can take payments wherever you are. And when somebody has Square, you go, ah, thank you. This is a business that actually cares about itself. And I can promise you that little girl at the lemonade stand is probably going to be some, you know, multimillionaire

• 50:25Speaker 01

  business empire before we know it. One of the best things about Square is that as a business owner, you know that a lot of different platforms do a lot of different things. So when you have a product like Square that can do everything in one, from tracking sales, tracking inventory, making sure that it's collecting payments and helping right there on the spot, whether it's a POS system, point of sale system, or it is something that you just need to use on an iPad or a phone. It, it's all in one. Right now, you can go to square.com/go/jefferson and get up to $200 off your hardware. That's, that's a big deal.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  $200 off, square.com/go/jefferson for $200 off, use the code Jefferson for $200 off your hardware. And now, let's keep going. I firmly agree when they say, how do I, in repair language, if I'm going to be in the act of repairing, regardless of the rupture, you have to be able to lower that voice because the softer it is.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  You're approaching with, with tenderness, with softness.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Softness, and it's really hard to be soft sometimes when you're, when you're flooded. It's almost, to me, it's, it's impossible really for me. When I know I'm getting defensive and being really hard, it's, I don't, I don't want to be soft. And I don't want to have a soft voice, but I know when I am regulated, it's a lot easier to reach those feelings and,

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  and softness, because it's, it makes a big difference when you're able to. Lower your voice in a way that's gonna make them feel like you really mean it.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  Well, something that we found really helpful in in our group, we uh we have kind of like a group forum where people can post the letters that they're writing onto their kids.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  And then you can actually get feedback from other adult kids or other parents, which is pretty neat, because kids write letters too. Sometimes it's like a, like you're writing a boundary letter, like here's kind of like what what I what I hope can maybe provide a structure so we can have a healthy relationship. Other times, it's like a request, like I'd really love to, you know, invite you to therapy or something. For parents, what's cool is you can write your letter, maybe taking ownership over a specific regret or something like that. And then you can post it and the kids will be like, ah, well, you're wording here. If my mom said that, that would kind of trigger me here, or maybe just like you, you talk a lot about your experience in therapy and how much it's changed your life.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  But we don't need three paragraphs on that. That almost kind of draws the attention back onto you if you just kind of like summarize that a little shorter and then get to their experience. That's always better, you know, so.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  It's best not to bring your up your experience at all.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  If so, two sentences is great, but like, I mean, again, we're just talking like strategically, what we've been shown to like open the door, you know, and I think that a letter helps you sit and think and then really kind of go over it a few times. I would recommend writing it out first and then doing the voicemail, not necessarily that you need to read the letter on the voicemail. But something about writing does help you organize your thoughts and really reflect.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, hands down. I think writing is a excellent idea.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  And even getting feedback on the writing, because what you don't want to do is just grovel and just try to say the right words and say the script in order to get things back open. That doesn't work in the long run. And you don't want to come off defensive or accidentally slip in even stuff that feels overly self critical towards yourself. Like there's, there's, this is kind of a tight rope. And so being able to slow down and take it at a good pace and even get some feedback on it. I've seen produce better letters. Here's another thought. This is pro tip. Postcards are more often received than letters.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  We say received, mean read?

• 53:54Speaker 02

  The kid opens them.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because they'd have to.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  I can tell a personal story. My dad, when me and my dad were estranged, I haven't mentioned that yet, but me and my dad were estranged for three years. We reconciled and worked stuff out. Yeah, yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  How long ago was it?

• 54:05Speaker 02

  It was um, seven years ago.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, he's given me permission to share pieces of this, but like, uh, there was an affair that came to light that he was having. And then there was this stint where he was in rehab for an alcohol addiction. It was just a lot of pain and hurt.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  And then my mom came and lived with us kind of in the fallout of that. And so there was just a lot of tension as they were navigating their divorce. And so I took a break from contact for a short amount of time. And then it was like a three year ordeal kind of off and on, but it was like painful. He sent me a letter once. It was very thick. I remember getting the letter. The envelope was just, I could tell there's a lot in there and I was like, gosh. And I set that letter on my mantle, sat there for three months.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  I just could, I was just like waiting for enough emotional energy to open it. I was like, oh, this is gonna be a big, long.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's him laying into me. Maybe it's him like a pity party. Maybe it's like victim, what, like, I don't know, like, I don't, I've had all these ideas in my head of what was in that letter. You know what it was? Stickers for the kids. That's all it was.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Really?

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Just princess stickers.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  What'd you learn from that?

• 55:10Speaker 02

  That um, sometimes when you send an envelope, the kid builds a story of what's inside that envelope. They're making a decision whether to open that or not, before they even know what's inside.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  And they're, they're determining that off their past experience with you.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Not holding in mind your reflection or your personal growth or your process. They don't know that, because that's what's inside.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  And so what we found was when kids, when parents started sending postcards or texts or emails, where you can kind of get like, you can almost kind of get a little like flash of the first couple of sentences and skim a little bit to see what we're in for. So much higher response rate. So just a funny little technical metric thing that I thought was pretty impactful.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, I think it's a powerful story. Thank you for sharing that with with us.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Because that's, that's not a small thing.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Well, and another thing, another letter, this is funny. I, my dad sent me another letter and I could tell it was written by ChatGPT. And I stopped reading that about halfway through and I was like, all right, never mind. So any parents who think that's the best call. Kids can usually sniff it out. And even if they can't, I had someone in a workshop once being like, hey, I sent a letter written by AI to my daughter. She loved it. She was in tears. She said, this is everything I hope to hear from you. But I, I didn't actually read the letter. I kind of just sent it without even reading it.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  We're going to a coffee date. What do I do now?

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Oh, that's reminds me of like, we both have kids. I'm like, that reminds me of Aladdin. You know what I mean? Like, I have to like, I have to keep up with the prince. She's not gonna want Aladdin, you know?

• 56:40Speaker 02

  I refer to it as it's kind of like lying on your dating profile.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  And it's like, I'm six, three, and you show up and they're five, seven. And it's like, but I'm a nice guy.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  And I'm five nine.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  And it's like, of course, of course. And you started with a lie.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that's the thing with, I think AI is great at giving you tools to say, this is what it could look like. But AI cannot connect for you. It cannot repair for you. It cannot build your character, you know, it cannot restore and repair the way, you know, you can. But it's great, I think, pointing holes in what the other person might be feeling or thinking and using that kind of as a sounding board. I um, when I think of

• 57:20Speaker 01

  like the letter, right, of not wanting to open it, and I think that's a very good point of if you don't say it, they're going to have the conversation for you.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  And it's not gonna be flattering.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  You know, if you choose to go, well, it just is what it is. You know what? I could call them, but I'm not. What I say is the conversation you're avoiding is the result that you're choosing. So like, you're able to like.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  That's what makes you the best of this. That's so good.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, stop it. But like, that is, that's what's happening is if you don't, um, if you don't call them, if you don't reach out, I assure you.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  The outcome's set.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  They're gonna be saying it for you.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  They're gonna be assuming and saying it all in your head, and it's not gonna be what you want. I want to go, uh, we talked about moms. I want to talk about dads. Like you, I hear from a lot of dads who go, yeah, um, my wife and I divorced. I work, you know, and I, I born to my work and I didn't want to come home. And yes, I was emotionally unavailable because she was home and I didn't want to do this and it left me away from my kids. And now my daughters or my sons are now, it's, it's been 10 years and they hate my guts and I don't know how to respond to that. And they feel like I, I'm the one paying for things and trying to do stuff and it's all the more.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Even when they've had, like, I talked to dads who've, they've remarried, right? Or they have other kids or they're taking on stepkids. And yet they cannot reach their own biological children.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Does that, do you see that?

• 58:58Speaker 02

  So common.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  It's, it's more common than mothers. I mean, so when you look at the data, so like Rex Zach and colleagues showed that uh, like a fourth of the population is estranged from a parent. 26% is estranged from fathers. Only 6% are estranged from mothers of that population.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  I wonder how many is, of how many fathers are wanting to come back? Are those that just like, want to do nothing with them and left the family and, you know, just ran off?

• 59:23Speaker 02

  What I see more often is like, there's so much pain and dad doesn't know what to say. And so he chooses to be silent. And not because he doesn't care, not because he's stubborn.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  But because he doesn't want to make it worse. And so it's like, how do I reach out to you? How do I make this right? How do I do this? And so some common avenues is like, I try to financially provide. I try to do gifts. I try to show up and do acts of service. Like I try to like, be there in some of those ways.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Sometimes that's cut against them. It's like, all they do is just send a gift and they think a gift is gonna get them.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's interpreted by the kid. Most often it's almost like bribery or trying to buy my way back. And that's not how the dad means it. It's just, that's, that's a common way it's experienced. So.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  What are the other avenues?

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  Well, I think that it's helpful to know that there's some data that shows that sons are more often to find like some of the likes, let's say, kind of um, some of the points of conflict, some of the friction in the relationship. It's more common that sons feel frustration over dad's politics. And it's more common that daughters take more issue with dad's religious or lack of religious belief. That some of the actual arguments can cut differently depending on sons and daughters. Daughters are often more likely to try to pursue their fathers and stay in connection with their fathers. Sons are more likely that if the conversation's not going well or we grade against each other on principle or on beliefs, to kind of cut ties. And so I think that the strategy that you take as a dad to try to reach out to your kid can be nuanced depending on sons and daughters and some of those general examples.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Every family's different, but let's take these examples as if they kind of held. It's like with a daughter, I'm really trying to see like, what are the deep values that you try to like, build your life around? Whether it's your family, whether it's your religious beliefs, whether it's how you engage the world, what matters to you? And I need to express that those things matter to me too, or find the ones that do. Maybe if we don't agree on everything, fine, but find the things that really matter. And I need you to see the tender parts of my heart and then to be able to express my regret, not in a way that is overly shameful on me, like, oh, I'm such a bad dad, or I screwed up, or I'm sorry I ruined your childhood, or these big kind of sweeping statements. But really just in getting really good at asking questions about things that matter to your daughter.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  That's the skill you want to double down on. How do I ask questions about things that matter to her? For a son, it's gonna be a little bit different. It's gonna be more so on finding the things that really matter to him as far as his, whether it's a his business, his reputation, principles, things he believes and showing that you respect and that you honor it. You're not trying to push it down or condescend to it.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Most of the time when I hear from um, fathers who are estranged from their kids, it quickly turns to the mom. Right, the ex or whatever of they're poisoning the well. You know, they're saying things that aren't true. They're cutting me off. Uh, and now my daughter is just like her mom. And so I, there is a lot of feelings there that she's just like her, that my, my wife's ruined them. In other words, there's no coming back from this because they're, they're too far gone. They think everything that

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  because the mom's been feeding them this misinformation or whatever it is.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  I mean, do you find that, does the research show any difference in, like, that surprised me of that there's more men, actually. Fathers are estranged. I mean, is there anything else that you see in the data?

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Six times more. Yeah.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  What? Say that again.

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  Six times more people are estranged from a father than a mother. Yeah.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  That's incredible to me.

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  Well, you know, here's my guess why it's incredible. Cause the moms are usually the ones who are trying to fix it. And so like when you are doing your Q and As or I'm, you know, doing my events or whatever, it's moms in the audience.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  I want you to say that again. So tell me the reason why it's six times. Why, why do you think it's? Yeah. How does it say six times? What do you see?

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  I think that it really, well, okay, there's lots of theories. We actually don't know, but I'm more interested on why the dad stays silent. Because there is kind of this feeling of like, I failed them or they don't want me, or they're just like their mom. There's some narrative that really reinforces for the dad of like, this is basically impossible. Or, or it's often that they take insult because for the dads, like I tried to provide for you. Tried to be there for you. I did reach out, you shut me down. What else can I do? And a lot of that like emotional language and the empathy and the grieving with them and the taking respect, like a lot of that stuff feels a lot more out of reach. It feels less native. It's not necessarily anything anyone's ever shown to me, you know? And so it feels like, wow, I'm being held to like these impossibly high standards.

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  No understanding or respect being thrown my way. And I'm supposed to just like kind of grovel and, and roll over to your demands? No thanks. I was talking to a guy on a plane. I was, I sat down and then I had a guy sit next to me, Korean dad. I was like, you're Matthias Barker. You're the estrangement guy. And I'm like, oh yeah. So we had the whole flight to talk and he's like, my daughter basically just wishes I was dead. And I was like, tell me about it. Tell me like, what's going on? I was like, well, she was mad that I, she said that I criticized her about her grades, that nothing I did was, or nothing she did was ever good enough for me. That I basically only care about money and performance. And then I'm like, what do you wish she understood?

• 1:04:50Speaker 02

  I was like, well, that I grew up poor and we worked really hard to be able to get here. And I watched my mom, you know, she had, he had a story of immigration where like mom really suffered and worked really hard. And this was like a really deep value that providing for your family and being able to secure economic stability was survival. And then as I was talking to him, I'm like, how have you tried to express that to her? I was like, well, I, she's not open to hearing anything I have to say. And the big message that we talked about for like an hour and a half on the flight was it's not that what you're saying is not important to them. It's how you're saying it is not hearable by them.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  The language that you're using, the approach that you're using needs to shift. And that's not because they don't think you're important. They want you dead so much of the time is because what you're sending, they're not receiving, you're putting the wrong postage on the mail. If you're curious to understand the language that adult kids can hear, that daughters can hear, that sons can hear.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  There is hope. You might have in your head like, well, they're just like their mom. They're just like this, they're ungrateful, they want me dead, they have no gratitude. They're just going to see me as the bad guy.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  Those are the walls around your heart that feels hurt and often has tons of grief. No dad wants to be separated from their kid. And I'm like, if you're willing to be, if you're willing to be humble and just learn how to say what you really feel in your heart in a different way.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  There is hope.

• 1:06:20Speaker 01

  I find that most people who don't know what to say in conversation, it's not because they don't care. It's because they don't know how to repair.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they don't want to make it worse.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  They don't, yeah, they don't know the, the right method, the right way to go about it.

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  There are methods.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  There are definitely methods, which we've talked about.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Because they feel like anything I say or do makes what? Everything worse. And so they would rather not approach it at all than risk the pain.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  And that's been their experience. That's, that's the truth of it is that they've tried. It hasn't worked and it's made it worse. And so they're like, gosh, I, it just feels like I'm walking through a minefield and I don't want to make it even worse than it already is. And so they feel trapped.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  What do you say to those parents who go, I've, I've tried it all. They don't want anything to do with me. I hear you saying, I need to acknowledge and address the 5%. I hear all this soft, you know, whisper, Mathias, but that ain't doing it. So, you know, what do you, what do you tell them in terms of a mindset?

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  Our, our tagline at estrangement.com is over and over is peace with what's possible.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  What does that mean? Peace with what's possible?

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  It's, I don't know what's possible with your family member. I don't know what's possible with your kid. I don't know when reconciliation may or may not come, but I want you to be experiencing peace as you're on your way to figuring out what's possible. Estrangement, family conflict is a roller coaster and it doesn't just end when you start talking again. Oftentimes, even if there's been a period of estrangement, a year, two years, five years, 10, you get back into contact and then it's a long road of trying to find a way to feel calm and relaxed around each other again and connect. Oftentimes what we see in the data is there's multiple estrangements. Sometimes you talk again and then you're off and then you hang out for a bit and then six months go by, you don't hear from them. That's more common than not.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  So this is actually a longer journey, not just one objective, which is get them to start talking to me again.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  How does someone know whether they should give up from that estranged family member? Or whether they should hold on for hope?

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  Well, we need to accept what's true today and then hope for what's possible tomorrow. But how you hope is going to determine if it's suffering for you or if you can live a full, meaningful life in the meantime. If you think of hope like a pull-up bar, like you're just like straining to keep your chin above it and your muscles are shaking. And it's like, I hope they call, I hope they text. Christmas is here, my birthday is here. Are they going to text me? It's going to feel exhausting. You're going to feel hopeless. You're going to get self-critical. It's going to be miserable. I think of hope like keeping the porch light on. It's like, and even with the door locked, it's not like they can come barging in at any time, but I am willing to come to the threshold if they're willing to have a different conversation. If they come knocking, then I'm willing to go look in the peephole and see what conversation

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  is there. That kind of hope doesn't keep me standing at the window, looking at the road, wondering if they're going to come. It's a hope where I can be in the kitchen, making food, having friends over, involved in my community, playing pickleball, doing my life with the, just the reality of they might have a change of heart. We don't know. People have health crises, people have religious experiences, people have all sorts of things that give them a change of heart that we can't predict. It feels safer to just say, they're never coming back. I'm just going to essentially mourn them as if I'm never going to see them again. That's to resolve ambiguity because ambiguity is suffering.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  You're searching for clarity. You're searching for certainty.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  And the reality is there is some certainty about the future. That's reality. I would so much rather build your peace on reality than on some fantasy, even if it's a harder fantasy that you can accept.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. What I often like to tell people is sometimes you have to live out the conversation that you wish you would have. Like you, I, I wish I could tell you I've changed. You're not giving me that chance, so I'm going to live it out. You know, and that's, that is sometimes, I think that goes to the piece of what's possible. What's possible is what would it look like if I'm never going to be able to talk to them again? How can I still honor, you know, my part of that conversation regardless if they ever come to the table? So I think that's something that.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  Practically?

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  It doesn't really matter much if you think that they're never coming back or if they're coming back in six months or a year. Your question is, what are you doing today? All you have is today. Today could be your last day. So it's like, what am I, am I going to be standing at the window, thinking about all my regrets and ruminating? Or am I going to go live my life in the meantime? Or work on myself and learn that language? So that if they do come knocking, I'm not shooting from the hip.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  I'm actually prepared to speak in a new way, to own different things. Cause I've been doing my grief work in the meantime. And that's what actually enables you to have not just good conversations, but to have peace in the meantime is like, I'm engaging in self-forgiveness. I'm owning my stuff, not just even about my kid, but just within my past. And what that's going to do is it's probably going to give you a better marriage if you're married. It's probably going to make your other relationships more fruitful. It's probably going to make you just a better member of your community or an employer and everything else. So there's really nothing to lose.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  By learning about yourself.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  By learning about yourself and learning how to communicate with people in different ways that are native to you.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  It's really only to gain is, is by doing this work, although it does feel laborious, it gives you more energy than it takes in the long run.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Right. I like that imagery of.

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Looking out the window, hoping they'll come and forgetting to live, you know, and not taking care of, not taking care of yourself. So I think that's, taking care of yourself is part of that conversation.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Both, um, I find like that's kind of the trend here is both things can, can certainly, certainly be true. And I do like the, I very much like it feels safer to say really bad things about them and make it a thousand percent true in your mind.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  Ah, certainty is so much more comforting.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  Uh, Terry Real has this line, he says that, um, self-righteous indignation, which is like feeling like, oh, like they're so bad, they're so evil, they're the bad guy, I'm the good guy. That self-righteousness, he says, is a mild form of grandiosity.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  Which is like feeling kind of like I'm puffing out my chest.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  And the cost is your hard heart.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a good one.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so good. It's like, when we hold on to those negative narratives, like we were just talking about dads a little bit ago, of the like, well, she's just like her mother, they're never gonna talk to me, I've tried, the da, da, da, da, da. That gives us peace for a moment because we're not constantly chewing on it, ruminating on it. The cost is it hardens your heart.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah, I think that applies to a lot of what we're saying here is, gotta keep your heart soft. That's, that's really hard because that means you're gonna feel pain.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Well, and if you forgive yourself first, then there's really no ammunition they can have in the tank that can truly injure and harm you. Because you've owned it. You've owned the part of it that's true. And so then when they come with the accusations that are false, they can glide off of you because that's probably more actually reflective of their pain and their stuff than has anything to do with me. And when they bring a true accusation that is reflective of something you did wrong, you've processed it and grieved it. And so you can turn the attention not to how hurt I feel, but what was the hurt that you're holding? And I'm actually emotionally free to apologize, to pay attention to your feelings, because I'm not drowning in my own stuff. I've actually digested my own stuff. I've already done that.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  I did that before this conversation so that I'm grounded in peace. I'm not trying to repair from my hurt. I'm trying to repair from peace.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  What do you, when you hear from these parents, what's probably the number one thing they wish their child could hear?

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  I did my best and I love you.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  For the, the parents that are estranged from their adult children and all of the adult children you've heard from, what's the number one thing that the adult children wishes the parent would hear?

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  I had some unmet needs in childhood that I wish you could just acknowledge. I'm not asking you to fix me. In some cases, I want an apology, but more than that, I just wanna grieve some of the loss that was hard for me to go through alone. The hardest part wasn't that you weren't perfect. It wasn't that you made mistakes, we're human, we all do that. It's that I had to go through that by myself. And I actually went to invite you in to those places I felt lonesome and had to hold the hurt by myself so that we could hold that together. That's what allows me to relax around you. Is to feel like you get it. And that's gonna actually build the foundation for the trust and closeness we can have in the future, if you're willing to do that with me.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  I need you to own it. And to do that, I need you to sit in my grief with me.

• 1:15:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's messy, it stings, and we can get through it.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  Something that's coming to mind of, sometimes the conversation's not gonna happen. They're not gonna answer your texts, they're not gonna do this. And so sometimes you, you can only speak by the actions that you take. So how do they know that you're different? Right? You, it's, to me, it's, you're learning about yourself, which is gonna be therapy. You know, going to get help, going to read books. Like, I don't know how many people have gone through all kinds of trouble and they just don't read, like, there's books.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Right there on it, they don't wanna, they don't wanna read it. And so are there any other types of, when you know the conversation's not gonna happen, any actions that somebody can take that is signaling to the other person,

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  I'm different than who I was before?

• 1:16:09Speaker 02

  Well, I think that ultimately, the thing that's gonna speak most powerfully is the energy you hold in the room. And that energy can't be faked or performed. It really has to come from the inside. And so I think about it tactfully from what actually creates that totally different feeling in the room when I'm in it. A slow pace, um, a kind atmosphere. I'm not just talking gentle. Sometimes I try to resist that word because I'm like, what I mean by that is calm and intentional.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Not angry, how about that?

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  Regulated. Yeah, you know, like, like just-

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Let's try that.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Safe.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Not yelling.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  And I think at certain moments, I need to be vulnerable and emotionally available. And then at certain moments, I do need to put my guard up because you're being harsh. And I have to stand and set some boundaries and not be treated as a punching bag.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  That, I think, is done by the information, the books and everything else. I also think that's done in community with other people. Some people get that through their faith community. Some people get that through, uh, like group therapy or kind of like maybe community centers that have like support groups. That's why I did estrangement.com was to have a community of adult kids and parents, not from the same families, but both demographics of people that get on calls together, go through the journey together, read and learn together. Because then, in the moments when you're just like overwhelmed on Mother's Day, you have somewhere to go. I think that's so much, especially on the parent's side and on the kid's side, but on the parents especially. You don't wanna dump your grief and spiky emotions on your kid, but that doesn't mean you're just supposed to swallow them.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  You do need someone to witness you and hold space for you. That could be a therapist, like I said, that could be someone else.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  That's a great point.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  Someone else does need to see it. And so it's not-

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  You shouldn't be using your kid as like, I'm also wanting you to be my therapist. I'm gonna give you all the problems that I have with what you've been doing. Like, you need to go talk to somebody else.

• 1:17:56Speaker 02

  And it doesn't work to just try to suppress it. You do need to share it.

• 1:17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  You need to share with others. And what's really helpful is to share with other people who get it. You know, and so, because you try to talk to other people that don't have any experience with estrangement, they just look at you weird, like, oh, what? Your kid cut you off? What'd you do?

• 1:18:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  You know, or, or as a kid, oh, you cut your whole family off? Like, what? Like, and it's just, you're, there's shame no matter where you look. So the community aspect, I think, actually is probably one of the bigger levers.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  I think how you respond to the moment that you have entered into estrangement with, as either a parent or as an adult child, is going to either, like, the approach you take is either going to confirm all of the patterns and fears and history that they have, or it's going to set you on a different approach that is going to say, I'm interested in healing and doing something different. Because if you have like a child who goes, you know what, mom? I feel, or dad, I feel like you just care about everybody else's opinion except ours. Everybody on the, outside the house knew, you know, that we're so perfect, right? We went to church and we're so perfect.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  And, you know, and we don't talk about drama and, you know, heaven forbid that people think that we actually have things to go through and yet on the inside, we're actually crumbling, right? And if, if as that adult, you're going, okay, don't tell anybody about this, don't, they don't need to know, but like, you're just feeding that right there. So I think there, I, I, that falls into the, there's some traps of what you don't want to do when you can see that estrangement's taking place. One of them, I think, is what I said, is affirming already the pattern that's been happening.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  What have you seen as some other traps of when you see that estrangement's taking place? Some, the areas to absolutely, the pitfalls to avoid?

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Emotional dumping is a big one. That's, a lot of people don't think of that one first. But it's so common that when I have regret, or I'm really nervous, or I'm scared, I pour out my worry, I pour out my concern, I feel like you're pulling away from me, like, I really want us to be a family again, like, listen, I've really tried. And that's what leads to the explaining, that's what leads to the defensiveness is-

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Justification.

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  I'm terrified that I'm gonna lose you.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  And I just, it's almost like I bubble up with all of that and it just pours out. So you could think like there's two errors. There's the error of like resentment and getting angry and defensive and frustrated and argumentative. But then there's also the error of like, um, dumping out all your emotions and kind of spiraling, because then the kid feels like, oh, I gotta take care of you, I gotta be your therapist and like-

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, here I gotta take care of my parent again.

• 1:20:32Speaker 02

  I can't tell my mom anything because every time it just sends her into a spiral.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:36Speaker 02

  They can't handle it.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, but there are some parents that are like, you would say the child is, the adult child is more emotionally mature far and above than their parent, because they had to be.

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's both. Yeah. And so the tightrope is something like, hey, that, those deep emotions that kind of bubble up, I've actually processed that with other people. It's not like I just shove those down. I just, I have my therapist or I have my group, or I have my men's group, whatever, like, I, I have a place to put that. I'm not gonna put that on them.

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  And then instead of taking the resentment path, I'm gonna really do some exploration of what can I own? And then can I forgive myself for that? So that then I can pay attention to what my kid needs from me. And then if they throw insults, if they're spiky, if they're sharp, if they're walled off, I can experience peace with what's possible. I can engage and hold space for them. And then I can mourn the obvious grief that comes up. And that's not, grief, I don't think is something that is not part of the equation or something we need to fix. Grief is just part of our human experience. Obviously, there's gonna be grief. And we have a place to hold that with other people.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Man, it's so good to see you and have you here, uh, Matthias. And I just appreciate all the things that you're doing for the people that are out there, uh, hurting on both sides of it. And I think what you're doing is giving a bright light, of saying, if there is any kind of desire at all by either side, that's a win. And so it's, for those who haven't had that light yet, I think what you're doing is, is guiding them in a, in a, in a beautiful way. So thank you for sharing that with my audience, man.

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  It's a gift. Thanks for having me on, Jefferson. Love it, always.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Later.