Shane Jacobson - Permission To Laugh

How do you make sure your kids are proud of who they are? 💌Join 6,500+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy Propelled to international stardom after the release of Kenny, Shane Jacobson’s overnight success was years in the making. Joining us in the studio, Shane is incredibly generous in sharing the cataclysmic impact that humour and laughter has had on his life from a young age. Now at the age where he has attended more funerals than 21st’s, Shane talks about his realisation that he is in for the long mourn, and why he allows himself to feel joy during times of intense grief. Sharing a giggle at a funeral? Absolutely. In a beautiful moment of connection with Hugh, Shane chats about parenting the ‘premium package’ (his neurodivergent child). Shane, this was incredibly joyful. If you’d like to watch this full video on YouTube, follow this link - https://youtu.be/VHaK2fSiasA 0:00 – A bird in her where? 3:19 – Butt of the joke 12:34 – The evolution of good manners 17:47 – Seeking validation 27:17 – Giggle at a funeral 42:00 – Autism, ADHD, Tourette’s: The Premium Package! 55:58 – Becoming softer 1:00:25 – Parenting your parents 1:08:03 – Don’t wait for the moment 1:18:04 – 5 things we can do to be warmer 🫖 Other episodes of The Imperfects mentioned in this episode Dr Emily - Truth v Harmony - https://bit.ly/4etnytQ 📺Things to watch Kenny - https://bit.ly/427rUzv Shane’s AFI win (go to 6:12) - https://bit.ly/48HyzEb 📋Check-in Questions to ask someone if they might be depressed - https://bit.ly/4dOYuNS 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here - http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  My dad has always said that on his gravestone, he wants it to read, "Here lies a nice guy." And he's like, "If you can get through life and that's how you're remembered," he goes, "You've done it right."

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Shane's overnight success was years in the making. In 2006, Kenny, a mockumentary about a porta potty guru, propelled Shane to international stardom.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  You know, I've had a pretty bad run with losing friends. I've been to more funerals than I care to admit, which means if 24 hours after that a moment happens where I can find a smile again, I give myself permission to smile. You know, laughter's the best medicine and, you know, when dad was in intensive care, we were using humour then and we're like, "I think we can get him through this, yeah."

• 0:39Speaker 01

  So interested to know your experience as a parent of a neurodivergent child.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  It's not that your kid ain't normal. My kid's extraordinary. He's autistic, he's ADHD, and he's just been diagnosed with Tourette's. And as he said to me, "I've got the premium package, dad." I said, "You do, buddy."

• 1:01Speaker 02

  There is just so much to get. We want to get to Shane Jacobson ASAP.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  We do.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  ASAP.

• 1:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. What an episode. What a chat.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Oh, he's the best.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  I can't believe we got Shane Jacobson on the show. He feels like one of those high level, like Australian icons.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, he is.

• 1:16Speaker 03

  And he's, yeah, he talked about some amazing stuff. He talked about, a big chat about parenting neurodiverse children. There was some great stuff about his childhood and growing up in the western suburbs of Melbourne and wanting to be a dancer and that journey of, I guess, finding the permission that he needed to do that. It was really moving, along with other stuff like caring for two aged parents who are both in care now. It was a really, it was a wide ranging chat and extreme, as you'd imagine, extremely funny.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah. It is. Yeah, Shane is one of those people who, I imagine, he's not wondering whether he's going to get invited to the Logies. He's getting invited.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  There's no greater honour.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's one of the great honours and privileges of our career to be invited to the TV Week Logue Awards.

• 2:07Speaker 03

  It would be.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  That would be, actually. Yeah, I mean, I jest, but deep down, I really want to go.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  How have you been Hugh? Because I mean, every now and again, it is, it is nice to just throw that question at you because

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Well, that's how we start every Patreon episode, with that question.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  And it's not letting us down. I feel like it hasn't, it hasn't once failed us, which is quite amazing.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Our Patreon show being a little more imperfect, which is, you can subscribe on, on Apple or on Patreon. But yeah, it's, it's a question we often ask. And the question that we asked you at the start of every live show when we toured the country and you were 100% strike rate, something absolutely fucking bizarre would happen to you. And you would tell us about it.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  True story. Penny and I were walking down Smith Street the other day, bit of a debacle happening with a couple going crazy.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  And the lady said, no, she said, there's something in my hair. And she goes, it's a bird. And they pulled a bird out of her hair.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  True story. I was petty. True story.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  I've never seen chaos like it before, have I? Wow. Anyway.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Okay. Speaking of Shane Jacobson, we should get to this really amazing chat. We felt so lucky to have Shane here. I mean, I've known him for a few years now, but it just, it felt different. Like I've never been able to talk to him like that, really. I've heard him talk like that before. So it was, it was, it was really, really great. But we will come back afterwards.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's something I want to talk about that. Usually I pick a part of the episode that I think has had a big impact on us, something we could learn from, like a moment we can learn from. But I, it was actually something more about him as a person that I feel like, my, like my feeling was the more people are like this, this thing with him, the better the world will be. And I want to talk about that because it's something we can practise and it's something, it's easy to practise and the world will be a much better place for it if we all are more like Shane.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  What a hook. What a hook. Thanks, Hugh. We'll be back to chat about whatever that is. After this amazing chat with Shane Jacobson.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  There aren't many at the top of the tree of nicest people you've ever met. But this man stands at the top of that tree. The nicest man. One of, one of, one of, one of. I'm just thinking about the people who are also, I know a lot of nice people actually. So let's not do anything. Yeah. So one of the nicest people I've ever met, Shane. It's such a thrill to have you here.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Shane Jacobson.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. My dad would be thrilled to hear that. You've just got me, I can give up entertainment now. On his gravestone, he wants it to read, here lies a nice guy.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Or a great bloke. Yep, that was the other one too, or a great bloke. And he's like, if you can get through life and that's how you're remembered, he goes, you've done it right.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's pretty simple, isn't it?

• 5:07Speaker 00

  What about money and things?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  I mean, I decided last night to watch YouTube little grabs from Kenny. And the amount of time I spent doing that, I could have just watched the whole movie because it was, my God. But we will get to that. So I'll just do a quick bio for those of you who, who are, I think everyone knows Shane Jacobson, but just in case. So Shane's overnight success was years in the making. Growing up in the western suburbs, there were two things that Shane lived for. Performing and being part of an organisation or committee. Before Shane was plunged into the bright lights of Hollywood, he worked so many different jobs, including a credit card fraud investigator, a sales rep for a dentistry company, fireworks aficionado for clients such as Bon Jovi, ACDC, Prince and the MCG,

• 5:57Speaker 01

  comedy warm-up guy and lighting technician. In 2006, Kenny, a mockumentary about Kenny, a porta potty guru, was written by Shane and his brother Clayton, starring Shane as Kenny. This role propelled Shane to international stardom as he picked up an AFI for best actor in a leading role. You're up against Heath Ledger that year as well. That's a, well done.

• 6:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, he, I still don't know that I deserved it. Heath, Heath became a mate after that, which made it even more awkward because I had watched his performance, I think, more than I watched mine. And Gabriel Byrne, who I thought was, that if Heath didn't get it.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  He was also a pro, Gabriel Byrne.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and, yeah, and in Jindermine, which I, which I thought he was incredible in. Yeah, I was convinced I wasn't gonna get it. If anyone ever, I'm not asking people to Google it or whatever, do YouTube it, but.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  No, you definitely should have.

• 6:47Speaker 00

  I looked shocked because I was in shock.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I, I mean, not that, I, I believe that you should have, you should deserve it, but at the same time, I would be shocked as well. Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Those two actors. I was so shocked. I thanked a lot of people. The only two people I forgot to thank was my brother, who wrote the film with me and directed it and edited it and produced it, and the investor who paid for all of it.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  It was just those two that I forgot.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Damn it.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  So Shane would go on to appear in feature films such as The Bourne Legacy, Oddball, The Dressmaker, The Ladies in Black, as well as stage productions such as Hairspray, The Rocky Horror Show, Shane Warne the Musical, Guys and Dolls, for which you won a Helpman Award for Best Male in a Supporting Role. Shane has numerous credits as an author, presenter, singer and producer, and most significantly has been an ambassador to an incredible amount of causes close to his heart, including the Mirabell Foundation, Heart Kids Australia and Scouts Victoria. The last thing I want to say was, I, last year on, was it the 22nd of August last year, I saw you in a foyer at the Star in Brisbane Hotel in Brisbane, and we're sitting very close to each other in the foyer, and I wanted to come and speak

• 7:57Speaker 01

  to you. I got so nervous and I didn't say hi, and incidentally I just watched you interact with people around you. And then on the plane, I love riding on planes, and on the plane I wrote why I did, why I didn't, and I found it in my journal from last year.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Why, why you didn't?

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Why I didn't. I was like, why? No, no, I haven't, don't, don't usually have a problem with chatting to people that I don't know, but I, but anyway, this is what I wrote. So, so.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Just, just quickly, Shane, how long is this?

• 8:26Speaker 01

  It was very quick. It was just, so I, so just to the context is I've watched you interacting with people, the hotel staff and people asking for photos. And it took me back to the movie Kenny and I, so I wrote here, I was obviously quite emotional. I wrote, I felt it deep in my heart. Shane represents the best of humanity. The decency, the humility and the way he treats other people. He reminds me, it's not what we do for a living, but it's how we do it. It matters.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  Made me strangely emotional.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Beautiful.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  You can stop doing that now. Is this what this show does? I've seen this. There's some kind of gas being leaked into this room. Someone's cutting onions. That's the, you're gonna have to stop being nice. I'm not gonna be able to do this for very long. The, what a pity it could, it didn't come up to me. That's the, you know, the, the reason I find that strange is my agents have said this to me and my manager, who's worked with many people, that they think I'm so approachable.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I wrote about, cause I was, I was like, this is one of the most approachable people I've ever seen. And I just can't find it with myself to do it. And I think it's because you were just, you was quite profound, watching you interact with the people around you. It felt like quite a profound experience for me as in like, it reminded me of when I was watching Kenny, what a huge impact that had on me as in a reminder of, yeah, this is what I, this is what truly matters. And then I saw you doing it and living it. And it was all a bit too much of just, this feels like such an overwhelming moment. And I didn't, I didn't come and say, oh, but.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  That kills me. So, cause Kenny was, and I'm speaking on behalf of my brother as well. I can't talk about Kenny without pretending he's standing beside me because we did it together. But it is a riff on decency. Like if everyone goes, try and describe the whole film quickly, you've got seconds. It's a riff on decency and we held up a mirror to Australia. And so, you know, this is who we are, like at the core.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Did you feel, was it a conscious decision to, to, to hold up that mirror? Like, did you feel like you needed to do it at that point?

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Well, the, the way it happened. I actually, as an event manager, I used to use a company which was splashdown toilets at events. And the guys that worked in that event company used their sense of humour as a suit of armour. And I'm from the western suburbs of Melbourne. We didn't come from a lot of money, et cetera, et cetera. And my uncles, my dad was born and raised in a tent until he was twenty two years of age. And that one known as the tent family, and that wasn't a term of endearment. So my uncles and my dad were bigger shaped characters that used their humour to protect themselves from people having a go at them, right?

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  So the splashdown work is imagine that every party, you go to every function, you go to every wedding, when you sit beside strangers and introduce yourselves.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  That we all get to go, we're in entertainment. That goes pretty well for us, doesn't it? Even if we're doing well or not well at it, we get to say we work in entertainment. That's pretty cool. My wife gets to say she's a lawyer, someone else might be a teacher, a doctor, a surgeon. A single mom and everyone goes, gosh, how are you doing it? All that kind of stuff. But when you go, I, I work for a toilet company, it's just never gonna go well for you. You instantly become the butt of the joke. Oh, well, I better not shake your hand. You'll take shit from anyone. And the jokes start. So their life, the second they unveil what they do for a living, they become a joke instantly to a stranger.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Hmm. So I watched them working and dealing with what people said and using their suit, their, their sense of humour as a suit of armour. And it's what my uncles did. And these were hardworking, blue collar workers, using humour and deflecting it and making everyone feel happy while people are having a go at them. And I think that's genius. So when I saw that, I said to my brother, I have seen these guys that are exactly like our uncles.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 00

  And that was my brother who said, what a great way of looking at humanity through the eyes of toilet workers. And you know, when you go into a toilet and the workers all, have you ever noticed they, their eyes are down? When you go into a supermarket or when you go to a shopping centre now.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  And you go into a toilet and there's someone there cleaning it, watch how often their eyes are down.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Oh, why is that?

• 12:33Speaker 00

  Well, it's a learnt experience. People aren't looking at them and communicating with them. So what's the point of looking up? Or they're embarrassed. And either way, we've got it wrong as a society.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 12:41Speaker 00

  So me and my brother, my brother cleaned toilets to get himself through film school. So when we walk through a toilet, I say hello. When I get off a plane, say hello to the people who are waiting at the door.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  To go on and clean that plane and you watch them. Oh, hi, thank you.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  I'm not used to it. Yeah. But I think that that's, that is how I've always known you. In the way that you will meet someone new, you have no idea who they are or what they do. But you'll say hi to them in the same way that you'll say hi to the famous person that you're meeting for the first time. Like, there's no judgment or hierarchy or status in, in your world.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Like, it being any different is just not allowed in my family. Like, being a prick's just not allowed.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Like, if you, like, before it all comes on me, like, Shane, you're amazing, just so you know, it's, like, it's not allowed. There are rules. I'm following the rules.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  It's all you know.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  You just can't, you can't get ahead of your station.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  So what is it about your childhood or what are the events from your childhood that influenced that?

• 13:42Speaker 00

  Well, firstly, when my dad sees me interact, I mean, he's in aged care now, he's not seeing me on the street, so to speak. But he sees me with the people in the aged care. It doesn't matter what I've done, he's proud of stuff that I've done, don't get me wrong. But when he sees someone stop me on the street and I talk to them and have a photo with them. He has always said something to the effect of, if not almost identical, that's what matters.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  My brother on the other side of that coin, he'll meet a crew member or a cast member or someone that's worked with me. And he says that they so often, oh, I've worked with your brother, he's so nice. And he says, what did he do for you? And they go, what do you mean? He goes, well, did he, did he buy something or lend you some money? And they go, no, he was just really nice. And he goes, yes, so he should be, it's called manners.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  So even in our family, you can't get it, you're not allowed to keep them, the tip from a compliment. It's like, no, no, you don't get to tip me on that.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  No, that's the, yeah, expectation.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  Expectation.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  When, when you say your, your dad grew up in a tent or he lived in a tent, was that, like, can you explain that?

• 14:46Speaker 00

  That's how poor they were. They were, they were, so that was how poor they were. So my, my family came from carnival, we're inherit, it's inherently, we're gonna end up in entertainment, I think. So I come from carney folk.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, really?

• 14:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the joke is, big fingers and we smell like cabbage, like hardworking, but we couldn't afford decent food. That's a Carney thing.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Really?

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, if they've got big fingers and they smell like cabbage, they're probably a Carney like us. Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  So when you say carnival, do you mean like kind of working carnival stalls and like literally touring and travelling?

• 15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Really?

• 15:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  How old were you when that was happening?

• 15:20Speaker 00

  I wasn't even born, so it was my grandfather that that had the rides. They had the chero plane ride, which is a rudimentary little pull start motor with some chairs on chains that would swing around. You know, the chero planes.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Uh, knock a dolly, win a lolly, all that kind of stuff. So they toured country, Victoria, um, and probably even into southern New South Wales, uh, with the circus. But my grandfather died in front of my dad when my dad was eight, uh, and my auntie was one. He in fact watched his little sister crawl over to the body, but so they, so they were a Carney folk. And then that stopped in an instant. So all they had was a tent and a block of land in Merrabonong. And he was, you know, one of many, many of seven of them. So they had to come back to the property, um, and pitch the tent and they lived in it until my dad was 21, you know.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Geez.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  22. He had just nothing, he loved his youth, that's the thing. Like he loved it. If I said.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  The experience of living in a tent.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  Loved it.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  He thought it was amazing and all of his gags, so many of his gags, you know, anyone that had more than three teeth in that town was a tourist. And he said, uh, and, you know, he'd be so poor growing up at school, he couldn't even afford to pay attention.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  Um, at one point he said, I think we were sponsored by a family in Peru. He reckons their photo was on someone else's fridge.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  So he, like all of that, so in my mind, the concept of being poor and working class just sounded fantastic. That's how he pitched it.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Oh, the other thing was mates would want to drop around and see my dad before we went out.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  And I, nothing happened in my head when they asked for that. Oh, okay.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Then over time, I realised at no point in my life was I going, before we go out, can we drop into your parents' place?

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  So the point I realised my emotional bank account was chockers was with humour that I went, oh, they're coming to my house or where my parents are or what I'm around, the humans around me to fill themselves with joy. And then they leave and I assume that wears off with whatever's going on in their house.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  And they come back to fuel up here. And imagine if every house was a Bowser. What's in your Bowser? Like, is it finance and success? And I found out our house's Bowser

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  was, was good times. It was fun. It was joy. And they'd come and fill up and then drive off. And I didn't know, I could just, it was just being poured over me like that scene in Zeland. I was just fucking.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  So are you, so in, in becoming like a dad, knowing what your childhood was and what your messaging was, were you going into it going like, I need to instill all this, like this knowledge and philosophy and stuff on my kids? Or are you just, let's just, let's just see.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  No, I'm trialling, trying really hard to do everything you just said, but you've, you've just leapt from me and my youth into how I'm going as a parent.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  I have so many questions on that. Yes.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  Oh, no, don't. Oh, we can't do this. Does anyone know?

• 18:31Speaker 02

  True, true.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  I was not doing parenting yet, cause.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  No, cause I was so confident until that bit. How much did I feel like I was leading the conversation? And she went, how are you going with parenting? I'm like, oh, fuck.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  Okay, let's build into that. Let's build, let's build up to that.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  So I'm just picturing your childhood. So your dad and your uncles were into boxing and boxing was a big part of your life. But there's a point where you decide you want to go into acting, stage acting, singing, dancing.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Always.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  So how'd that go down with that when you, when you were telling your dad that? Was that?

• 19:06Speaker 00

  This is the, the, the beauty of it. My dad, like me and my brother and my dad, like we're the same thing. Like there's just kind of one, it's the same Lego kit. It's got all the same pieces. It literally does. We all wanna be, you know, a man, whatever the hell that means. But I, you know, there was, there was certainly a thing. My uncles were, were just, they were big, strong men. So there's that and I'm, and I'm not embarrassed by it and I don't wanna change it. I did wanna become some kind of man. But then I saw humour. I wanted that Lego piece. So you bolt that and that's, that's one of those big, long blocks. You know, I wanna bolt that to the big, strong man thing. And so humour is another part. And then decency was an even, as we've discussed, is another piece of the block and everything else.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  But interestingly for, not for my uncles, but for my dad and my brother and myself and my sisters, like they danced, like my sisters were dancers, right? My younger sister, she's the, in John Farnham's Lifted Up by Angels, my little sister is the dancing angel, you know. So, so, um, the other block that's the same size is this burn and yearn to entertain. So all my uncles were funny, but my dad would get up and do comedy acts on stage at the footy and cricket night and just slay. So bolting that together, dad loved the idea of us singing and dancing and dad was great.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Supportive and, and.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  All the way. So, but the thing that, the dad, so I was dancing and boxing and I had long hair and I had my ear pierced and, you know, dad said, it was one of those things, if you're gonna have your ear pierced, I mean, he said, I mean, you know, it was a different time. You're gonna have long hair and your ear pierced like a girl and you're gonna wanna dance. You're probably gonna need to make sure you can fight.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  And, um, and so I was doing boxing, I was at the gym anyway, cause I just wanted to be like my dad and my older brother. Like I was gonna go there anyway, but he was like, you're probably gonna have to learn how to do, do all right at this. And so, but when the two worlds collided for me, the primary school I was at knew that I was tap dancing and I, and I kind of didn't even think, they said, we'd, we'd love you to do a routine for the school. It was like, you know, five or 600 kids at the school. And I'm like, oh, okay. Oh, right. Okay. So I. Came to school and they set up this class, double classroom that where the doors used to kind of bi-fold doors would open up and it turned into one really big room and it could fit the whole school in.

• 21:30Speaker 00

  And I turned up with my tap shoes on and like a dance outfit that was like a, you know, lycra red with sequins. It's the full show. It's the full tap dance gear. I obviously had a different body shape than I do now. I wouldn't wear that now. It'd look like a sock filled with mince meat, but but back then I looked like a dancer.

• 21:53Speaker 00

  I went out and did the routine and finished that and then walked into the toilets to get changed again, back into my uniform. And a guy called George, who was without a doubt the toughest guy at the school, who had his cronies all marched in. And then I had that moment, which was that, oh man, this is when, this is it. This is that moment where I, I've got to pay the bill for wanting to dance in the western suburbs. Um, you know, they're going to turn up and see if I've got enough money to pay the bill, you know. Um, and I just went, oh man, this is when the two worlds collide. So George was definitely going to be a problem for me and so were the guys with him. Um, I didn't have their measure at that point. And at that age, in particular confrontation would have my heart doing a million mile an hour. So what happened in that moment?

• 22:38Speaker 00

  So, and I, and at that point, I wasn't kind of good enough at boxing to kind of get out of that. And they had, they had, they just had my measure in every way. And, and George was a lot to, to, just having him walk in a room was pretty terrifying. And so they, I went, okay, well, they're here to beat me up. So this is when that happens and let's just see how this goes. And he said, how long you been doing that? Hmm. I'm like, oh, I'm answering questions now. Doing, doing what? The dancing thing. Dancing, yeah. And I thought this is part of the shakedown, which used to happen on trains all the time. You got the time, mate. And depending on how you answered as to whether they knew you were an easy target. So I went, oh, this is the shakedown. And I said, uh, oh, you know, about a year or two. And he goes,

• 23:20Speaker 00

  where do you learn to do that? And I said, uh, at a church hall in Ascot Vale. He goes, that was really good. And I went, thank you. I'm, I'm, he's gonna hit me in a minute.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 00

  And then he stared at me and then in that moment, I realised he meant it.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  And I'm like, oh, and the guys around him were like, what's going on here?

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 23:46Speaker 00

  And he went, yeah, keep doing that.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  What?

• 23:51Speaker 00

  Walked out.

• 23:52Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 23:53Speaker 00

  So.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  That's unheard of.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, then he died two years later, stolen motorbike and it killed me. I wrote about it in my book.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  God, I haven't spoken about this for a while. Um, he gave me permission to keep doing it and he was the guy that wished he could do it.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, that is incredibly.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's weird. I haven't, I've written the book, I haven't spoken about it, but. How, how old? Oh, I'm grade five, like, and he, he's circumstance and I, I know what he was like. And, and he was playing his part. He just didn't have my uncles and my dad as a guide.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  So I could see in his eyes, he wished he could do that. God, I wanna dance like that, but I can't. It's not the example that's been set for me. I've gotta be tough and I've gotta do this and I've gotta do that. And it was like the Fonz, it was a Fonz moment, you know, and he literally walked in there to go, oh my God. Someone out of this shit show is following their dream. You keep doing that. Like, he meant it. Like, I wish I could do that, but he knew he couldn't because he didn't. That's not the role he was playing. He was tough guy. He was threatening guy. He was steal your lunch guy. So he left and then, yeah, a few years later, you know, he died at a really young age. Hit the back of a truck on a motorbike that I'm pretty sure he probably took.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Um, the, the perfect script would be that I found him at fifty. And I tell him what that meant.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  But just to go, you're not as bad as I think you probably think you are. Like, wouldn't that be cool to say to someone? I don't think you're as bad as you think you are.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. I have a really similar experience when I was in probably a year or two older. I was singing and learning guitar and wanted to play music at the school. I think someone asked me or can't remember what the motivation was, but. I'm gonna play it, at the school I went to, we had chapel once a week and I'll sing a song at chapel and I was so fucking terrified in year seven and got up there and there was one guy who I was terrified of his opinion and he wasn't, it wasn't to be beaten up, he was just kind of the biggest cynic and sort of the cool, like, very cynical, very negative in a cool year seven

• 26:08Speaker 03

  kind of way that everyone kind of gets guided by his energy. And I sung the song, uh, and then we all had to walk out and he was making a beeline for me after the thing and I was like, fuck, he's coming to tell me how shit it was. And then, and he just, he looked at me and he goes, "That was good, you should do it again." And then just like walked off. And I was like, I seriously think if he had said something negative, I probably wouldn't have continued to sing, play music.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:37Speaker 03

  Do that. But at that point, it was like, I will do it again and I have permission to be myself.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Isn't it shit that we seek validation from those people?

• 26:47Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Well, it's like that Stockholm syndrome, it's the, it's a version of it. I know it's not.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Well, they, they kind of dictate the terms really of what's, what's appropriate and what's inappropriate, especially, I mean, even now to a certain degree, when you're older, there are people like that who can do that. But especially when you're younger, you're so keen to belong.

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, that would be, it's such, that's why I feel like it's such a powerful, both those stories, but like, because you're so, or most people I would imagine are so kind of like vulnerable, particularly if you're trying to do something that's different.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Let alone artistic in an environment which is not, art, art is not the common activity. If everyone's playing sport and boxing and everything and you choose to do art or dance, it's like, that is, that is a-

• 27:40Speaker 03

  Potentially an invitation to be mocked. Um. So it's incre- it's so powerful. So it's like a, it's like a Billy Elliot.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  I was just gonna say, it is, it's exactly why, and, and it is Billy Elliot. But every time decent people watch that show, it makes sense instantly. And that's why I hate the fact that, that we're all guilty of the same thing, that we're all like, George made me say, keep going. There was probably, I have no memory of the other 500 kids at school that must have said something. I hung out with some good kids. They would have said nice shit. I remember none of it.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Can I ask you, it's a bit of a question, brings together a couple of things that you mentioned, but earlier on, um, you talked about the, the plumbers and the, the, um.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Splashdown workers.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  Splashdown workers and how good they were at that, the superpower of deflecting,

• 28:36Speaker 03

  deflecting insults, deflecting, anticipating insults through humour. Um. I imagine, and I'm guessing here that as a kid, as a teenager, you would have been pretty good at that with the dancing, um, and deflecting. Do you think, uh,

• 28:52Speaker 03

  and, and I've done it a lot myself with things I am insecure about. But for me, it, it can come at a cost. Do you think, do you think there can be a cost to that sort of humour?

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Don't know. It's worked, it's worked for me.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  It works for you. Yeah, yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  It truly does. I do wake up, my joy is, I do genuinely wake up nearly every day, pretty happy. I live with a mate who was bipolar.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  Um, rough looking dude, probably terrifying to the eye, covered in tats. Used to tour with Inexcess and, um, Pantera, like all these bands was a road, he travelled the world and, and to look at, you know. He was a lot and he would wake up either really, really happy or really, really angry. And so when I walk into the, we lived together for years and then I'd walk into the kitchen in the morning. And if he was, if the kitchen was spotless and it smelled like it had been deep cleaned, he was having a great day, he would get up. And if I came out and it was just a few dishes and. That I I would do them, but if he he would get up early and do them, so there was nothing to do. Or if I got up and I had to do them, then he was about to come out on a rage. And so he he was, he was, he was red or he was green, right?

• 30:14Speaker 00

  And I don't think ever in between really. And then one day, when he was having one of his red days, I would just know not to speak, which is a lot for me. So he was the only setting where I ever just didn't talk like in the morning for like fifteen or twenty minutes. Like, not a word. I'd just say, morning, mate. And he'd like run to nothing. And so I just didn't speak. So I used to walk around in the same space with him and sit down. And that that worked for him, right? In fact, he, that became, he would then sit down and talk to me because he couldn't figure out what was going on. Especially with me being quiet, would shock any room that I'd shut up. And then one day, we just sat opposite each other with me not talking. And he said, do you know what really shits me? Do you know what, do you know what fucks shits me? And I went, oh, here we go. And I'm like, what's that, mate?

• 30:59Speaker 00

  He goes, every fucking day you wake up the fucking sun. And he's roaring. And he said, every day you're fucking happy, every fucking. And like, it just, he was spooling. And that was the thing that morning set him off. And he goes, is ever there a day where you're not fucking happy? And I said, well, Scoots, I'm not, not really. I said, but I can, I can ring you when it happens if we're not living together. And then he kind of laughed because that was, and I said, is that really today's, is that today's beef? And he went, yes. I went, oh, that's pretty. I said, I can look down and, or something.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  And then we started to laugh, but he, that was that day, I'll, I'll never forget it, that he's, he was so angry. That after an elongated period of time, that he realised every day I was going to come into that kitchen with a smile. And fucking drove him mad, as it turned out. And then I finished that morning and got up and on my way out, I said, come here, gave him a hug. And like, not many other men could hug him. In fact, I used to pinch his ass in public, which, and he would react really strongly. And I said, I'm gonna keep doing that until you don't react. And it took like two years. And then one of them pinched him on the ass. He goes, yeah, I know you pinched me on the ass. Well, okay, we've shaken that bit out of your personality. So, yeah, so I, I don't, I don't think, I don't,

• 32:25Speaker 00

  I think I'm blessed with that, but I know, I know, I know I'm blessed with that. I, life has, you know, life has thrown some serious stuff at me, you know, when you get older, it throws stuff at you where it can certainly wipe the smile off your face, but the face, or wipe it off my face, but it doesn't take it out of my bones. So I can still find it again. You know, I've had a, a pretty bad run with losing friends over the last, you know, I've lost fourteen mates in, um, and, and some relatives in five years. And I've lost a whole lot more than that. I've buried other than one auntie. I've buried all my uncles and all my aunties and, you know, my parents are one of eight and seven. So, you know, and, and their partners. So I've, I've been to more funerals than I care to admit. Um, I reckon I've been to more funerals than I've been to twenty first. I'm going to a lot of twenty firsts.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  Um, so, you know, the stuff that whacks the smile off my face, but, um, but I, but the, but the humour has always worked for me. And I don't know, you know, laughter's the best medicine, unless someone listening to this is really sick, you should probably try some medicine too. But, um, we use it in all the worst of situations. So when, when my dad had cancer, we, we use it, mum's got Parkinson's and we use it in everything and it really works for us. And, you know, when dad was in, the only time I had, I got questioned over whether comedy or humour belonged in a space. And we all know you've got to read the room. My dad was in intensive care. He had cancer of the esophagus.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  And as everyone knows, if they find cancer in your letterbox, they take out the whole front lawn. Yeah, that's just what they do. And so they removed his stomach and everything. And he was in intensive care and then it's, and he survives. The story's got a great end, but he, he was in a very serious way when he was in intensive care. And me and my brother Clay were there first, we're waiting for my sister, my older sister Kim to, to arrive. And so, uh, we were using humour then. And, uh, and every time the machine went ping, me and Clay go, oh shit, it's run out of coins. And we'd be reaching in the pocket, trying to put a coin in and, um, leaning into dad, um, saying, look, you know, dad, look, we're not sure if you're gonna pull through, um. Things looking pretty serious here and we're being told by the nurses, they don't know if it's gonna go north or south.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Um, but look, this is something we should establish in case you do, uh, kind of, you know, jump off this mortal coil. Uh, who gets the patrol, the missing patrol? And so every time we did this shit,

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 34:45Speaker 00

  Dad couldn't move, but a bit of vapor would turn up in his mask after the punchline.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  So he would, a bit of vapor, and that was all we get. And we're like, fuck, that's all we need, right? Okay, okay, he's, he's, that's, he's going with it.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  So we just applied our, our medicine, which is humor. And then I walked outside, I think to meet my older sister. And when I got out, uh, one of the nurses grabbed me, pulled me aside and looked quite serious, going, listen, I don't know if you boys know this, but, um, you know, your dad is in a really serious condition. And she started to give us like a status update on just how bad dad was. And I'm like, as she was talking, these are these angels who are keeping my dad alive, right? So like the duality of having the very people, these incredible people in intensive care that are saving my dad's life, question me on what I'm doing. It was like, I'm like, oh, wow, this is, and I'd never had someone question me on, you know, do you really think it belongs here?

• 35:42Speaker 00

  Someone can not like a gag, that's different. Not someone going, does that belong in this space at all? Like not welcome here.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  Oh, so they were, they were, they were saying you shouldn't be doing it.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  Well, I think they were like, I don't know if you guys realize how serious this is. We're hearing you guys run around. So, but it felt to me like, oh, you think this is the wrong room, but for us,

• 36:02Speaker 02

  I see.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  We've been trained, that is the Jedi master laying there on that bed of this, and we are his pupils. Like, this is, we've trained to do this. This is what we do. And I had to let her finish because I didn't want to cut her off like she was wrong or, you know what I mean? I just wanted to let her finish. And I said, look, you know, um, I'd say, look, thank you so much for, for, for having this chat. Cause I think she was concerned that we didn't get how bad he was.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  And I had to go, look, just say no. We're very aware of how how bad this is and that's that that's our best mate there laying on a table who happens to be her father. So this this couldn't get worse like we we get it. Um, but this this is what we do. And I said, you guys are amazing at what you do. There's not a Jacobson smart enough on earth to do what you do. But we do this. And I said, and I think between the two of us, between us and what you're doing, I think we can get him through this year. And so.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  And on top of that, we get paid good money for doing this. So you should be so lucky to hear this.

• 37:04Speaker 00

  You'll be getting an invoice. Did you hear some of those gags? How many did you hear? Cause it's three bucks a pop. If you've heard three, there's nine bucks already. So plus J S T. Um, so in the end dad survived and I think we all know what the answer is. I saved my father. Uh, and the nurses did a bit of stuff. No, but that's so it got, I mean, they did an incredible job. So that at that point, humor got, uh, you know, losing a lot of mates. It's come up to question, um, losing a heap of mates. Like one of my mates, I don't know if you've read the news, like last year, a guy got bitten by a mosquito and got Japanese encephalitis. And he was the second case in five years in Australia of dying. That was my mate, Steve Bond. Like, it's just.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  I've had a really terrible run of losing really close mates, right? A, a, a lot. And my thing is we, I have a thing about not cramming, um, mourning that you should miss them for the rest of your life. So I try not to cram sadness like an exam, like cramming for an exam. If I try and do it all now.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  It's going to crush me because I've lost so many. I've had such a bad run. So I, with my mourning, I give myself permission to mourn for a very long period of time, rather than a lot now and then get over it and then be happy. And which means if 24 hours after that, a moment happens where I can find a smile again, I give myself permission to smile. Because that, I think that is how you endure it. And I've got to figure out sometimes people, and again, as an older person, you know, when I was younger, my, you know, my dad's buried, my mum's still alive, my dad's had to bury two of his, he's met two other people and they've both died. So I've had to watch my dad bury two wives and all this kind of stuff. And he, and I've watched him joke at wakes.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  We, the Jacobson funerals are the best funeral and the funniest funeral you'll ever go to because in that room, we don't judge someone. Didn't you just bury your wife, man? How can you laugh two hours after that? And I'm like, I got to watch him, a masterclass of him entertaining a room, burying, you know, Hmm. like two of his wives was devastating to him. And I'm like, oh, no, I know he can do two hours of laughing because I know he's going home to cry for 24 hours. Like, like, you know, he's gonna do more mourning than laughing. So, you know, so in our family, we didn't have to ask for permission to laugh in those moments. Yeah. And I know it doesn't work for every culture, but I had one where I tested the idea of

• 39:34Speaker 00

  being funny in it to a mate of mine, uh, who, oh, go on, who, I'm about to tell a story about his parents passing away, but this is a mate I'm about to tell you about, I had to bury him two years ago. So his parents, uh, his mum passed away on the back steps of a theatre coming to hand him his costume before he went on stage to sing a song. And we had to watch him go on stage and sing this beautiful song when his mum had just died, handing him that costume. And How old, how old was? Oh, we were sixteen, sixteen. Um, and then only a few years later, he went through that. And then his dad was gonna go on a holiday just to escape all that. And was filling his car with a caravan on the back to go on a trip and drop dead at the Bowser.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  So now my mate's lost his mum and his dad and his two older sisters. Had already gone on to start their own family and had their own life going and but my mate Dave had his younger sister living with him. So the older sister said, we'll obviously take, take Nick and he's like, no, I can't have her lose her mum, her dad and then not live in the house. So my mate stepped up at a really young age to become the dad to his little sister. Wow. So, but when, when we had to bury his dad, we'd buried his mum not that long before that. And I'm like, fucking, I mean, what do you, how do I help him? I mean, what, I mean, what can I do to help that world? You know, I mean, my God, this funeral is gonna work here.

• 40:58Speaker 00

  And then I'm like, ah, I've gotta try something. So when we're going from the, the church to the cemetery, I just said to a friend, I can't not do it.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  He's like, what are you gonna do? I said, I have to make them laugh at one point. The trip to go and put, they've just, I mean, I know where they, I mean, they're about to put their dad like beside their mum. It's just, so I'm like, I've gotta do it. I've gotta do, I've gotta give them one moment to just find a smile and then they'll, they'll get their sad face on when we get back to the cemetery. So my mate had a, a van with a sliding side door. So when the funeral procession was going with the lights on, heading to the cemetery, in that car was my mate and his three sisters. Cause there's no parents left, right? So there's not parents to judge. This is a bit over the top. It's just the kids. So I got my mate to drive along the side of that car and when the slide, the door slid open, I was in the back dressed as a clown dancing,

• 41:55Speaker 00

  which I just figured would be the Wow. most inconceivable image to kids burying their parents. And they wound the window down. It's a big call. I'm not suggesting anyone should do that. It's a big swing. Oh, it's huge. Is it a swing and a miss? And they looked out the window and of course it was so mad, they burst into laughter. And then they were like clapping and I just kept dancing. And then they just yelled, thank you.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  I'm like, okay, done. Shut the door. Ma, see you there. Got changed back in my suit and then pulled up and stood beside them and but only they knew and they were looking at me like, fuck, that was insane. And but they just kept saying, you know, like afterwards, you know, independently, my mates like, oh, man, thank you. Fuck, did I need that?

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  I'm not saying it's gonna work every time, but.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Was there a moment before the the door slid open where you were like, dang, what am I doing here? Oh, this isn't good.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  I just.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  This is silly. No, no, this is a funeral.

• 42:52Speaker 00

  Everyone that was older than me and smarter than me, which is most people at that point, I could hear their voices going, no.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Surely not.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Hey, Hugh and Josh.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  You know how like with magazines?

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  You can either go to the shop and when there's one there, you just buy one.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  And then you go like, oh, hang on, there's a there's the option to subscribe to this magazine. So it just comes to me automatically without me having to go to the shop. But did you know, guys, that that exact same concept also exists with podcasts and YouTube channels? You can subscribe and if you subscribe, then the the episodes just come to you without you having to do anything.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  We love doing this and we want to keep doing it for a long time and we wanted to do the best we possibly can and it really helps us.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Go to subscribe.com.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  So this is the bit that Ryan's been waiting for. We're gonna talk about parenting now.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  We got there.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Um.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Scary.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  I feel like if we did end up chatting at the Brisbane Star Hotel, um, we would still be there talking on this very topic right now on parenting because we have a similar journey as far as um, we we have a child who's on the spectrum.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Um, and diagnosed nearly four years ago now. And you said before that certain things in your life have have definitely, um, I can't remember the expression, you just bit like the smile off your face.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, slapped slapped it off my face. Yeah.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it certainly punched it off my face for quite some time. Um, I'm now at a point where I feel like I wouldn't change a thing now. Um, and I feel.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Things I feel so much joy now and I, and I've learnt so much from our child and they've enriched our lives so much with what their world looks like. Um, so interested to know your experience um as a fellow parent of a neurodivergent child.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've got a heap of them. Um, uh, they, they tell me it's, you know, it'd be nice for me to go and get a test.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Um. You don't need to, I can tell you're ADHD.

• 44:53Speaker 00

  Oh, look, I, I'm aware of all of it. I just, I just, I don't, I don't have to get a test to see if I'm Caucasian or male.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  These are wasted tests. Um, but they in the car, it was only a few months ago, they're going, go on dad, go and get a test. I said, what's the point? Like, you know, everyone, everyone's got the answer. And they said, join us. And so my, my youngest is, uh, uh, well here, he's autistic, he's ADHD and he's just been diagnosed a couple of weeks ago with Tourette's. So it's, um, and as he said to me, I've got the premium package, dad. I said, you do, buddy. Um, and we, we look at it very differently. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a, a, a vision first, which is, and the only reason I want to do this is just to put everyone in the mindset of, of how I see it, which is I really

• 45:43Speaker 00

  pity people that don't have some form of autism. And I'll tell you why. Because my, I, I get to watch this semi regularly. My youngest, Jack's, having a name, and we're not, you know, we're incredibly proud of who he is and what he is. Um, he can go outside and there's 50,000 versions of this, you'll know this, he can go outside and I can watch him and I have watched him. And I'll sit there with a beer if it's late on a Saturday or a coffee if it's in the morning, whatever. He's, I've seen him outside for an hour with his own hands, staring at the sky. I don't know what's going on, but he's shooting stuff out of his hands and he's seeing stuff. And for an hour, for an hour with just his hands, he's in bliss, nirvana. He's in a world so much greater than the shit world we're trapped in.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  And the amount of times I've said to my wife, what is he seeing?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Fucking what is he seeing?

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Do you ask him?

• 46:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. And when he comes in and describes it, it's fucking Disneyland.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Wow, yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  And I'm like, I am so jealous of what his eyes see. Like he can, he, some stuff's gonna be tough, but man, his fucking eyes are a movie cinema. When, every now and then, when he's got scenes happening in his head, every now and then we'd hear boom, this big boom. And I'm looking through, our house is designed in like a U, so I can look through to their playroom and see what's going on, right? And so he keeps jumping, right? Anyway, he comes out, I'm like, hey, what was that? What was going on then? Oh, I've made a movie in my head. And, and it might have a plane or whatever. And I'm like, what's the jumping? And he said, oh, that's the edit point.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  So when he jumps, the world for a br- if you jump high like a kid, not, not a grown up little ditty, I mean, a kid. And when you jolt and your head jolts and he's got glasses, so that would like, it would be like a full cut. Whoa. And I'm like, man, he's editing the film in his head. When I do a film, I've got to wait a year for that thing to come out. Got a film coming out in a month or two that I've done with Rebel Wilson. That thing's taken two years to come out. My son's watching it live. He's live television. So I want people to know that bit first, that I get to see the joy and the genius of it. But when, when Jax was about three, um, my wife spotted all this. I saw none of this, right? None of it. None, none, none.

• 48:01Speaker 00

  She's the one that goes, oh, you know, I think there's something going on there. So we went to get him diagnosed. I'm like, no, you know, I didn't hear the diagnosed or whatever the thing is, or go and get an assessment. There's nothing wrong with that kid, all that kind of stuff. And then it comes back and he's autistic and it did, it took the wind out of my sails. Um, but I just don't know what boat I thought I was on and what ocean I thought I was sailing. Like, why did it take the wind? Who said it was a sailboat? Who's, what, what if he just swapped, as it turned out, he fucking swapped the sails for a motor? But here I am, the wind is out of my sails. It's like, but I just, I think the reason it did it is someone said, oh, by the way, whatever you were expecting, it's not that. And I don't know what I was expecting, because we know the thing isn't, it's not that your kid ain't normal.

• 48:43Speaker 00

  My kid's extraordinary. I just, that was the day I found out my kid was extraordinary. Not extraordinary. And I went, fucking, I just, but I just went, oh, something happened. But then I just got to discover this world. And at the time, my wife has never, I mean, honestly, there's just not a better person for me. There is no better person on this earth for me than my wife, right?

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  So I cannot do life without it. Everyone says the term rock, she's fucking all the roo, right? She's a fucking monolith. And anything I get wrong, she helps correct the course and it's never with that, with judgment. You've, please, she just, there's just no, like, she's been put on earth just to make it work for me. And she's like, she's just a guardrail, like, you know, I'm gonna pick Bathurst because I'm a car guy and I've raced there. Like, she's the guardrail on either side. And honestly, when it's there, when you've got that on the left and right side of you, just to keep you in the right direction, you don't often hit those rails. But if you take them away, I'd be swerving all over the place because there's nothing there to guide me, right? But right at the start, when we got, when we found out that Jack was autistic,

• 49:45Speaker 00

  we're at a restaurant, I can remember where it was, in Williamstown. And every time she said the word autistic, she said it at a lower level. Like, almost a whisper.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 49:54Speaker 00

  Because there was other people around, you know, you know, but we've got the diagnosis autistic. And she kept saying it quiet. And I'm sitting there going, oh, she's whispering it. And I said to her, like, for one minute, I did something that was smarter than her. Like, for one, this is, it was a long, long ago. He's eleven now. Um, and I said, oh, I'm not gonna do that. And she's like, what? And I said, I'm not gonna whisper it. Because if he hears me whisper it, well, that's the secret. I don't, I don't want this to be a secret. I wanna, I wanna know everything about it. I want, I want it to be the opposite. I wanna yell the word autism. I want people to yell, oh, over here. Oh, great. What can I learn from you? What are you, what's going on in there?

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Now, I'm aware when I say this, that everyone's journey is incredibly different and that each child is incredibly different. If you've met a kid with autism, you've met one kid with autism. And it ain't a ruler. There ain't, there ain't, like, how, how far autistic is your child? It's not a ruler. It's a ball. It's a sphere. And they're within this sphere. And they, it's just. Just not people think it's a linear thing. Somewhere in this massive globe of autism, the spectrum, it's a circle, not a ruler. And they're in there somewhere. Oh, mine has this and this. Oh, you're over that corner of the globe. What's the best position within that ball? What is the most superior? None. It's a ball. It ain't a line. Hmm. They're on a finish line. I'm just at the start. I'm at the end or mine's superior or higher or longer or stronger or tougher. It's just different. Hmm.

• 51:12Speaker 00

  But at that point, I said, I, I, I want this to be a superpower. I wanna, I wanna find out about it. And we have treated it and spoken about it like it's a superpower in a house since that day. And my wife, literally in for the eight seconds that she whispered it twice and she went, oh my God, you're right. So that was after that, we're like, we're yelling this from the rooftops, like it's fantastic. So he goes to school and one of my greatest moments was, I'm gonna call it a parenting victory. And there aren't many of them because I'm, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm, I've always said, I wanna write a book called The Book of Being a Parent. And on the front, it'll be The Book of Being a Parent. And it's gonna be massively thick, like an old phone book. And when it opens it up on the front, it says, good luck.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  And at the back page, it says, how'd you go? And everything in between is what I've learnt, because I don't know what I'm doing, right? Because there's no way I'm gonna write anything in that book that says, I know something better than you do. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm, I hope I'm going all right. But one of my victories was he came home and said, some of his kids said, his mates said, you know, I think, I think I'm gonna get some autism. He goes, oh, you can't get it. You gotta be born with it. So they thought whatever was going on with him, he speaks about it with such confidence that they, they want it. He goes, oh, sorry, Connor, you can't get it. You can have it, but you can't get it. Hmm. And so I'm like, fucking yes. And we have him so excited about all these things that, like I say, when, when the other day, when we realised, because he's verbal and physical.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  And it's been for an elongated period of time beyond 12 months at that point, it's Tourette's. And on a Friday, it's worse when he's held it in for a week and he's, oh, oh, and his legs are going, he's kicking, like, it's just, it looks like he's being electrocuted, you know? And we don't reference it. He just wants to get it out of your system. It's not great if you're driving, which we were last Friday. So thank goodness. Uh, two weeks ago, he chose to sit on the left hand side of the car behind my wife, which meant the back of her seat was being kicked. That's my preference. If Jax, if you're listening, go to the left hand side of the car on Friday. Cause it's not great being kicked in the back of my seat. I'm trying to drive a car. Dad's got some shit to do here. Uh, but if he's behind me, so be it. Um, if I can get a song on the radio that matches the beat, it's like being in a disco. It's fantastic.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  But it is his, that all this stuff, I just get to watch it all. And, and when he, so Fliss found out, got the diagnosis and they were, they got the call and she told him. And I, when I got home, she said, Jax has something to tell you. I'm like, what do you got? And he goes, you ready? I went, yeah. He goes, so did mum tell you I was getting tested for something else of the day? And the truth is, I didn't know.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Oh, you didn't know?

• 53:41Speaker 00

  No. Fliss right now is going, don't tell him that. Sounds like you're a shit parent. I am a fucking shit parent. Anyway, go on, tell dad the news. He goes, you ready? What? He goes, I got Tourette's. Now it was like, seriously, it was like he got first at the swing race. I was like, yes. And that's when he said, I know dad, I've got the platinum package. So that's how it happens in our house. So he has, I'm glad it's, you know, out of four kids. I'm glad that it didn't happen early because I think I would have destroyed all of it. Uh, so just know.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  What do you mean? What do you mean by that?

• 54:13Speaker 00

  So as a parent now, like it's hard for anyone with any kid being a parent. They've got so many questions and this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just a lot. It's a lot, isn't it? You go from not being a parent at all to you're a parent now. It's 24 seven and they can ask questions and why and blah, blah, blah. And it can be exhausting. I have to explain things so many more times to Jax to get ready in the morning. It's every parent goes, oh, getting him ready for school. That's impossible. I've got to repeat myself all the time. And as you know, you speak to parents. And this is the thing when they try to tell you, that's not autism, that's all kids. And I'm like, well, you want to come in my house and have a go at it? I'll show you the difference. Which is in the mornings, Jack's go and put your shoes on. Jack's got to put your shoes on. Jack's got to put your shoes on. Hmm.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  Put your shoes on, buddy. You know, this is over every twenty seconds or every minute. You got your shoes on, buddy. Jack's comes out with his shoes on. Mate, you got to put your socks and shoes on. Cause I realise, oh, he hasn't even got his socks on. Socks and shoes on, buddy. Socks and shoes on. Now, this just goes for ages, right? He's turned a corner last, he's now obsessed with going to school early and that has paid dividends, man. Hmm. And so now he wants to get to school thirty minutes before everyone else. And that's, that's, that's the train he's on now. And it's great. Cause now he gets up, puts his socks and shoes on, but he's, that's, it's a hyper focus, right? So, and then I go, brush your teeth, mate. Brush your teeth, brush your teeth. Between me telling him and him getting to the bathroom, he's spotted four things of interest and one of those has got his attention so much, he's doing it. He's definitely not putting his socks on. He's totally not putting his shoes in and he certainly isn't brushing his teeth.

• 55:40Speaker 00

  Cause that was a third command. So that just goes on all morning. You just run around repeating the same stuff over and over. Now, I'll be honest, to me, it's no different than humming Christmas carols in December. I don't even know I'm doing it. But it's not until you start humming them in June, everyone goes, what are you doing? And when they come in your house and go, oh my God, how many times do you say that? And we go, say what? And they're like, like, brush your teeth. I went, I don't know. And I said, but how many times? I don't know. And I go, what do you keep saying? I go, cause he's, he won't be brushing his teeth yet. And they went, what? And I'm like, no, God, no, no. And then of course he comes out like, have you brushed your teeth? No. And then he walks back into another room and. Hmm. Does something else. And it does something else. So if it was my first child and it was already a shock to be a parent,

• 56:25Speaker 00

  I would have been frustrated. Hmm. Imagine if I didn't have the diagnosis. Imagine if we didn't know. And I've said, put your socks on, mate, and put your shoes on, like I was told as a kid. And when I got told that, I did that. If I came back out without my socks and my shoes on, my parents would go, mate, I'm not gonna ask you again. And I'd be sent back in the room. Imagine. If I didn't have the diagnosis and I hadn't been a parent a few times over and realised these little things take a while to teach. And it doesn't matter you got a busy day or you had a shit one yesterday. They need to hear it calmly and consistently through caring eyes for it really to sink. Imagine if he was number one.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  So so parenthood has softened you?

• 57:10Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. It's maybe a better teacher, it's maybe a bit of parent. Every kid may be a bit of parent. And Jax has made me, he's, he's, he, I, you know, I reckon I've finally almost got somewhere near doing it roughly right. But if he was my first, I would have destroyed it. I know it and I hate admitting it. I would have been terrible at it. I'd be yelling at a kid that doesn't even know why he hasn't put his socks and shoes on.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  He used to turn up, like he couldn't, so the idea of what a face was doing. So he, I mean, he, he got trained at all this. We've had, you know, a lot of intervention and O T. So a face, um, for those who don't know how this works. So when I can't figure out what a, what a person's face is doing. So if you imagine me telling, I just want everyone to picture me just telling this story. And imagine you staring at my face. Oh, my God, you're not going to believe it. Grandad just won ten thousand dollars, ten thousand dollars on Tats Lotto. Ten thousand, right? From a distance, uh, what he sees as a face screwed up, that may as well be, you ever touch me like that again? Ever? I'm gonna punch your head in.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, right.

• 58:20Speaker 00

  So he, the words aren't doing anything and he sees a face screwed up and he has no idea if you're angry or happy.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 00

  He can't figure out what the face is. So me and Fliss would be talking and I'd go, oh, you know, oh, mate, it was unbelievable. So we're, we're going down the freeway and this car pulls out in front of me and you're not gonna believe what happened. And as I'm telling her, his face would turn up in between us. Literally, I couldn't see my wife, like a lunar eclipse, right? A Jax eclipse would occur, this head would turn up and he'd be staring at my face. And I can't see my wife and he'd be like a foot from me, staring at my face, not into my eyes. Quite often, um, as you know, they don't look into people's eyes. And then while I'm talking, I'd eventually stop. And he'd go angry or happy? And I'd go, oh, happy, mate. And he goes, right.

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Okay, and then he'd leave.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  He didn't wanna know what we're talking about. He was just curious and he didn't know if I was. And how cool is this? He didn't know if I was angry or happy, but thank God he felt safe enough to put his head right in between me and my wife.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  So that's why I'm so glad he was the fourth because, you know, with each kid I learnt, you know, to be more patient and all the things.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Well, it's definitely, it's definitely softened me to the point where I, I feel like I often have looked for moments, or like with my job, it's like sharing stories to help people learn things and feel moved. We had a situation yesterday at the resilience project out here where some, a staff member got up and read a letter that she'd written when she was seventeen. It was extraordinary, but she, she lost her dad when she was seven and she, she wrote it, she read it out to all of us and it was very emotional and I was meant to, I had to summarise what had just happened in front of everyone and I found it very hard to do it. So I was thinking about my kids and how that would go and if I was on my hand, I was in tears and, and I thought, might share that story with my child just after I pick him up from basketball because I just want him to know how much I love him.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  But that was, that was kind of the, and so I thought, I thought I told the story really well and I, I was just, and that my child was sitting there after basketball, definitely listening. Um, and I, and I said, and I, and I couldn't speak because I was trying to stop not to cry and I was thinking it's a good chance to explain emotions. And I said, I was just thinking about how much I love you guys and I couldn't, and I just couldn't speak. I was gonna cry. And then my child didn't say anything and I said, um, so what do you, what do you, what do you, did that, you know, what do you think about that? And my child said, um, um, do you think next time we get a sloopy, there'll be any raspberry left in the machine?

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Oh, uh, and then I just thought, oh God, this is so funny. But I feel like a few years ago, I would have been like, mate, I've just, I've tried really hard to, to make it. And I just thought, and I had that thing to get in school when you can't laugh, because I didn't wanna laugh what they'd just said, but I was like, this is so funny. And so I did the whole way home, I was trying so not to laugh at just my child in that story going, the next time I get a sloopy, I wonder if I'll run out of raspberry like they did last time, because that would be a shame.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  I had one of my kids, when I went over a balty bridge, I was on a massive billboard and I had a hat on. That was the first time they'd ever seen me on a billboard, probably going, I'd never said, you don't say, you know, I've got a recognisable head, so. And they went, why are you wearing a hat? Didn't even mention, didn't even mention I'm on a ninety foot billboard. Why are you wearing a hat? Thought it'd be funny.

• 1:01:41Speaker 00

  It's not funny, don't wear a hat.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  That was it. It's, I think it's great for the ego, cause it's just, I mean, you're sitting there trying to be this bright shiny thing and they're just flicking shit at you. And, and well, that's how it feels. And then you realise it's not, I don't know.

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  The, the, cause shit looks exactly the same as chocolate if you don't know what you're doing.

• 1:02:03Speaker 03

  Um, you've spoken, you've just been speaking about parenting your own kids, but you have parents here yourself, obviously. And they're still around, you've been saying.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:13Speaker 03

  They're quite old.

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, 91 and 86, that's.

• 1:02:16Speaker 03

  Great innings, inningses. Is that, has that been a difficult, to see your dad, especially the way you've spoken about your dad in particular. But I, I sense that the emotions are the same for your mum, they're sort of superhero parents. Is that, has that been a really difficult process to see them age?

• 1:02:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it has. So mum's had Parkinson's for 20 years.

• 1:02:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  So we had the, we had that moment where, um, I mean, like all of these things out of nowhere, we got a phone call to say, um, I've just found out I've got Parkinson's and it took, again, slapped the smile off her face. Um, four days, we didn't joke about it, felt like a lot. Um, and then I remember sitting with mum and we said, we've, we're going to organise a party to bring some friends around. And I'm like, we're going to play Shake and Stevens. And she's like, really? Four days? Yeah. And, and we started the jokes. And she literally went, four days, that's it? And we went, that felt like a lot, mum. And we're going, when you get in the, when you get in the bath, can we throw a dirty washing in? So like a washing machine. I thought you were, I thought you were knocking on the wall before. Turns out you were just trying to lean on it.

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  Um, every time someone says, how's your mum? We do that like little thing with her hand. She's a little shaky, you know? So she's like, seriously, four days? But we, but the truth was, it did take out the wind out of our sails for four days because she. Yeah, dare I say it, I know it's a different experience for everyone, but she was my mum. And she, she, she was and is a rock. Um, sad part is now that I say that, she's, she's, that's the sad part, she's less of a rock now, cause it's hard for her. She can't do things for us. So she's, you know, she's now got to be assisted to walk and so she's with, she, I just finished getting her into aged care a couple of weeks ago. I spoke to her on the way in today, um, and yeah, I said, how, how you going mum, you know, settling in?

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  I, I keep asking you that. My wife said, you've got to stop asking that. Sometimes I keep asking questions because I want them to say the thing I want to hear. Yeah. And my wife always says, why don't you wait until they feel that way? So when they tell you they mean it? I, I, I do it a lot. Yeah. As it turns out, she's like, I, I know you think she's going to tell you what you want to hear.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  She's not, you just want her to be happy. It's a really good point. So I've got to try and work on that. I should say, how you going in there? But I'm saying, are you settling in well? And then of course she's like, no. So anyway, I'll get, I'll learn that soon, hopefully. So she said, it's just really hard, um, having to, at the end of every visit, David, my stepfather, has to leave. And they don't get to sleep in a room together. And that hit me, that was literally walking through the door here, having a bit fragile, walking through the door. Cause I'm like, ah, man, I just realised, imagine me and Fliss, like, you know, laying beside her at night is my, like I'm, you know, I'm the car, she's the charger. That's where I, I plug into her. She's my Tesla charger.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Laying beside her with my eyes closed, not even awake, having her beside me resets me for the day. Like it's just, it's the truth. So if I'm in a state, I fly home, just if I'm, can be home for one night, I've got a flight the next morning to go to another. I will fly home to lay beside my wife. So knowing that, hearing mum say, that's the bit, I went, fuck, that's devastating. I hadn't, I'm like, it's good care, it's nice bed, all these things. I'm banging on about furniture, setting and cast members and crew. And haven't considered the script, which is, yeah, they're all great, but I have to sleep on my own. So that, so that's been hard, watching her go through all that. And another one was this morning, to be honest.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  But that's been a slow deterioration of knowing that, um, mum will definitely get worse than most other parents. But she's done very well for 20 years with Parkinson's. We want to say that out loud.

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  Dad, ninety one, so dad about three or four years ago got really, really, really badly burnt, severely burnt about four years ago and was taken out of his house in an ambulance and has never been back to the house since.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  So he went from being completely independent to having to lay in a, in a burns unit.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:06:24Speaker 00

  He fell asleep, he was, he came into the house, it was really cold and he was like, I'm gonna say like older people where they have one of those gas heaters you can just stand in front of, and he would turn it off every time he left. So when he'd come back in, the house was freezing. It's winter in Melbourne and it can get pretty cold. And he went to my auntie, auntie's birthday, had a few drinks, came home, house was freezing, his, his back was feeling a bit sore. Thank god he took his um slacks off, his pants off. Um, sort of my, sort of step brother by marriage, I guess if you will, my dad's sort of um last wife is no longer with us. It's her son Brad, he's in the fire brigade. He just said, oh mate, he'd be, it'll all be gone. Um, he laid down in front of the uh gas heater

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  and fell asleep. Um, and I estimate he was asleep in front of it for three hours and he woke up feeling he was laying in water. And that was in fact all the blisters that had formed over his body and they'd all burst and he was laying in the liquid that his body had been excreting. So he was burnt severely and so he had to go to the burns unit. I was overseas. Um, my brother kind of made out it was not as bad as it was, um, because I'd just got there with the whole family. So he, he thought, I can't, I can't take the burns away. He's like, so, as he said, you know, I kind of said something like, I didn't need to burn you with the burden of that. It wasn't gonna help dad. And then when you get back, you know, and you said, I, you know, me and, you know, the rest of the family had it covered. And then so I, I, you know, I got to come home to that if you will.

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  Anyway, his muscles deteriorated, he couldn't move. Like for him to have a cold shower, to get up, to stand on a cold running water. He was on like this really heavy drug to stand under cold water.

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  Um, so yeah, so it meant dad's muscles, you know, anyway, so he just never got to go home. So we had to pack up his house and pack up his things and sell the house and he's in aged care. So that was, that was sudden and it was abrupt. Uh, and it was, it was terrible because we're watching dad unable to move in a burns unit. So, so that's been, that's been a heck of a journey. And then it's the thing of finding, of finding a place, you know, dad says it, you know, this will be, um, you know, make it good, it's the last room I'll be in sort of thing. And you hear those kind of, you know, he says, well, you know, and even when you ring him, dad's, but dad's incredibly good at, incredibly good at getting off the canvas. So that, that's what, that's his terminology we've been raised with. So the way he judges anything that knocks you off your feet, he said, I don't care if you fail, fail away.

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  Like, please, try so many crazy things, you fail a lot. I don't care that you get knocked on your arse. What I will judge you on is how quick you get off the canvas. So you're allowed, it doesn't matter what you get wrong or how you get beaten by something. He just said the only thing he will judge us on is how long it takes us to stand up again.

• 1:09:05Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:09:06Speaker 00

  And he's lived by it and I've watched him do it. And man, he does, you know, like I said, two wives and burying all of his brothers and half their wives and everything else. Like I've just watched him have to do it time and time again, stomach cancer, you know, terrific burns. So he just, uh, he just has a way of going, well, these are the cards I've been dealt. And so when I ring him, he says stuff like, how you going dad? Well, I went through the paper this morning. If I don't read my name in the obituaries, I swing my legs out a bit.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  He reckons, he reckons in theory he'll just read his name in a paper. Oh shit, I'm dead.

• 1:09:36Speaker 03

  Oh shit already.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, who knew? I was looking forward to eating biscuits.

• 1:09:43Speaker 03

  The picture you've painted of your dad there, getting up off the canvas seems pretty, he seems pretty unstoppable, which he sounds like he is, but did he struggle through that at all?

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, so he's, he was a blind spot for me, that he's been a tower of strength and guidance and all those things for me and my brother and all of us, my sister. And after the burns and during all this time, my wife's saying, I don't recognize himself. I'm like, what, what are you talking about? I didn't see any of these signs ever. She spots all of this stuff well ahead of me. Hmm. And anyway, she sat him down. And she's like, to my dad, can I ask you a series of ten questions? That's the test of whether you might be depressed. Okay. And he said, like about five minutes later.

• 1:10:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, ma- maybe you're right then, um. Well, based on that, may- maybe I am depressed. Whoa. And I was like, fuck, how did I not see that? Hmm. Did not, totally didn't see it. What did he, what did he say after that? Well, then steps were taken to get him assessed and get him medication for it. And that was great. Wow. It, it made me realise even more so that we should. I've got a couple of mates who just go, hey mate, welfare check, like out of nowhere. Yeah. And I've always gone, yeah, good mate. Well, what's, what's someone said? Nothing, just checking. Yeah. I've realised now, oh, I think that's actually how you've got to do it.

• 1:11:24Speaker 00

  I think you've actually got to go, by the way, how you doing? Like, I think. Be specific about it. And do it in the gaps. I think everyone's waiting for the moment, but I've got a couple of mates that do it in the gaps. Hmm. Which what, is why it feels weird. Not the day after I've phoned it, my mates did when they ring, you go, how are you? You go, well, not great. Yeah. Just found out Bondi died, just found out Bakes died or, you know. The list, Parsons died, just, you know, when, day after that, I'm not great. But in the gaps, I've got a couple of friends that do it in the gaps. Where nothing, it's like nothing seems wrong. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hmm. So check on everyone, check off and overseas, they say fantastic. In Australia, we say not too bad, which means in theory, everyone in Australia was bad. They're just not too bad. So in theory, we're all fucking struggling. Yeah. Yes.

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  It's true.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  I'm just thinking about your parents. Do they talk, do they, do they ask how the other one's going? We didn't talk about the divorce at all, but I'm.

• 1:12:18Speaker 00

  That's so funny you ask that. Um, they do.

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  I'm lost in thought because you've just said that out loud. No one's asked me that. They they do. And that's, you know, that divorce when I was four. Like, no one was, no one was getting divorced. My mum was afraid to leave the house because of how that looked in the community. Like, when there was no, there was no parent or carer. You take this message home to your mum and your dad. That's what was on every, every comment when I was a kid at school and take this home to your mum and dad. There was no mum and carer or stepfather. It just didn't happen. Kids thought it was, you know, I was born in nineteen seventy. It's not that long ago, but in my mind, but seriously, that that was, it was different. Like, I, I, I couldn't tell. I remember there was one other kid at school that lived with one of his parents. And that was a, a thing. Like, I was like, oh, okay, you, you know what goes on.

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was people didn't quite get, what do you mean your dad's not in your house? It was a, it was a thing. So, yeah, the fact that, and, and I've had other partners since and, um, but, yeah, it's so funny you ask that. I, I don't, I don't have any, I, I don't have any comment on that because it's just been happening to me. And I'm like, oh, they, they, they were very kind to each other in separation. Like, there was no, there was no, you know.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  They did, they did divorce well.

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  Incredibly well, incredibly well.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  What did they do well?

• 1:13:37Speaker 00

  Uh, my brother was swearing. I think he swore once when mum was disrespectful to mum. Can't remember what it was. And my dad found out, my dad drove to the house and walked in the front door. I was really little and said, if I ever find out that you speak, spoke to your mum like that again. I came back to go, you don't get to disrespect your mother in this house.

• 1:14:03Speaker 00

  Just because I'm not here doesn't mean you don't have a mum and a dad to tell you what's right or what's wrong. So, yeah, and they just, they never, they never put us between them. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of complicated things that I, you know, that I won't go into. But they, the way they spoke about each other and gave us room to, it was, we got permission to be in love with both. From them was exceptional. But, you know, there's bits that don't work and there's other people involved and, um, I. Um. My brother and I, so my brother's been with my sister in law just, I don't know, forever, right? You know, their son, their son played the little boy in Kenny, played my son in Kenny. He's now like twenty six and he's, and he's like, he's, he looks like Aquaman. He's a giant. He's a huge man. He's like, makes me and Clay look small. And so my brother's been with Vicky,

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  my beautiful sister in law, forever. But they've only just recently got married and it's funny, I've had, you know, partners and everything else. I've, I've, I've only, Fliss, I've married Fliss, but I, I just, I, how do I word this? I love relationships and I trust relationships, but I didn't hold any value in marriage.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:15:10Speaker 00

  Hmm. Cause like I said at school, like seriously, just I don't, especially in primary school, like no one's, I just don't think anyone's parents were divorced. It didn't mean they were in happy marriages, but they weren't leaving each other. That was like really uncool or whatever. Um. And it was sometimes embarrassing to say my parents weren't in the house together. So that was kind of what it felt like. So I felt like I had a dirty little secret, which is I know they don't work. And, and that that marriage thing is potentially a fraud. It doesn't mean because you're all together, it's all going great, right? And I don't know, me and my brother have never spoken about this, but um, I just think it was interesting to note that my brother and I went through life not getting married and were with, and he was with his rock,

• 1:15:49Speaker 00

  like Vic is. Vic means to him what Fliss means to me. Um. I have a son from a previous relationship and, and we never got married. And, and then Fliss and me, you know, had three more kids and we got a house together. And like I knew from the second I met Fliss that she's it, like she's, and I, if she-

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  How did you meet her? What was it?

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  We met at a function. She got a, we have a photo of the second we met.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Because she wanted a photo with you?

• 1:16:18Speaker 00

  For her brother. She didn't, she didn't, she told me she, she worked in, in the TV industry for a long while. She does it now. She left. It's like, oh, I'm out of here. She's a lawyer now.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:16:29Speaker 00

  But um, when she met me, the thing that she said that attracted, well, everything about her attracted me to her. But she said, I don't like actors and presenters.

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:40Speaker 00

  She literally said, I don't, I don't like what, all your people and you are.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  But I'll be honest, you seem a bit different. So she told me she didn't like literally actors and presenters. Um.

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  That was when she was asking for.

• 1:16:52Speaker 00

  Photo for her brother.

• 1:16:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:16:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, for Dan, yeah, for Daniel. Um, so we have a photo of the second we met, the second we met, and in that photo, I didn't even know her name. And you see the photo and it looks like we're a couple and I promise that's not what other photos look like.

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I look, I didn't believe, I, yeah, I've got to say, I didn't believe in, in marriage. I just thought, uh, what you do is you pour everything into a relationship. Um, but the house of marriage, I just went, we've got kids, we've got a house and.

• 1:17:17Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:17:18Speaker 00

  And did all that. So what, what is there to upgrade here? And then I'm like, I just thought about it. So I'm like, well, let's get married.

• 1:17:27Speaker 03

  Hmm. Has your opinion changed on marriage since doing it?

• 1:17:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 03

  Still a nice, like, yeah, what's, what's changed?

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  It's just for me, it's really selfish. I, I, um, how, how stupid it was of me not to think it would be totally cool to go, my wife and I.

• 1:17:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  What was, what was I thinking?

• 1:17:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't trust this thing. Like, what, what, what was she gonna, what was, how was it gonna hurt me? Like, it was, yeah, I just, I don't need that thing. That was how I thought about it all. And then when we got with her, what, what, you don't need that. Uh, we've got kids, you know, what was I thinking? I've provided you with children, I've provided you with, I mean, if I spoke to her like that, she'd punch me in the face anyway. But was, is that, I don't, I don't know why.

• 1:18:10Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:18:11Speaker 00

  And then as soon as I went, wh- why, why not?

• 1:18:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Speaker 00

  Have a cool party where you just bring the people that love you into the one place to drink and dance, which we did, we turned it like a music festival and everything else. And like, just all come together and go, how cool is this chick? And she's like so fine with me that we're gonna do this forever. Oh, by the way, here's all my best friends you haven't met yet. Oh, that's that guy I was telling you about that I worked for in Sweden and all, brought them all together.

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  Like, how, why did I not do that sooner? And that was just the best thing I ever did.

• 1:18:46Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:18:47Speaker 00

  And then my kids were the bridal party.

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, awesome.

• 1:18:50Speaker 00

  I'd fought, my four children were our bridal party.

• 1:18:52Speaker 03

  Awesome.

• 1:18:52Speaker 00

  That was it. It was us six on stage. Oh, my fucking, why was I saying that to this?

• 1:18:57Speaker 03

  What a. On stage.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  Fuck it. Well, this is, well, there's, it's, there was a stage because we're, we've got, it was under a big oak tree and they, they couldn't see us. We're, we did it out in the field, like.

• 1:19:06Speaker 03

  No, this is funny. It makes it sound like a performance.

• 1:19:09Speaker 02

  Well, it is. We had lines.

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, true.

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  It was big year, I do.

• 1:19:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  It was big saying, I do too in that.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  This has been such an incredible conversation. There is so much to your story, so many chapters. There's so much richness and there's so many experience, life experiences that you have so generously shared that will help so many people. The experience of watching Kenny last night, it just made me feel so good and so happy. It's the exact same way I feel now. So thank you so much for your time.

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  No pleasure.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Permission to jump straight into.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  Post chat?

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. I mean, we could just like talk about how great he is, but let's get to the actual.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  It's kind of what I want to do with this.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  So the experience of spending time with Shane Jacobson, I was reflecting on it a lot in the days after it because he just left making me feel, I just felt so great about a lot of things. And I was reflecting about what it is and I was thinking that like the quote that came to my mind was that quote, I don't know who it belongs to or if it is a quote, but that thing that like we don't necessarily remember what people say exactly, remember how they make us feel.

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  And I was thinking, how do you make me feel? And it was warmth. Like he was such a warm person. And I was thinking, what an incredible characteristic that is warmth, like to describe someone as warm.

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  That's so true. Yeah.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  And especially these days, especially with what we're going through all over the world with the disconnection taking place. Warmth is if someone makes you, if what you remember is a feeling of warmth, if you feel warm around someone, you relax. And when you relax, you're yourself.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  And you are, and you connect because of that. And so I think this is a really, it's a lovely attribute to have, but I think it's also an important one. And the other thing I want to say is that because it's a behaviour, not so much like you're not necessarily born with it or not, it's a behaviour. So you can practise it. And I've just got five things here from people that I know that are just, that I instantly think are warm and how much I love being in their company. And I was thinking, I mean, I was thinking, gosh, imagine if everyone was as warm as Shane, how incredible the world would be. So, and I think it's something you can practise. So I just want to go through five things that I, that I feel like we could do to be warmer.

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  Great.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  Cause it'll make the world a better place.

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  A good jacket.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  Yes. Okay. So here's the first one. And I did notice this was Shane very much, but the first person I thought about Josh was our uncle Eric.

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  This is the first thing. Yeah, this is the first thing I reckon. So, slow down your first interaction with someone.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  I think so often we are.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  So good for Eric.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  He just looks at you and he often holds your shoulders and looks at you and does a smile and a big hug and says your name.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. So is this like first time you've ever met them?

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  It could be both. The first time it could be the first time you see someone that day you're about to interact with.

• 1:22:08Speaker 02

  Rush through that first.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  I feel like we often do. And Shane was just like, Shane had a good look at you. He said my name. He said how great it was to meet me. And it was, he was so present for it. And he was just, and he really slowed it down. And instantly I felt warmth. And I think that's, I think so often we're sort of half present or we're kind of half there and we're our first interaction. We're looking around, who else is here? What other dynamics are taking place? Where do I need to be after this? Or what's that like?

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  Well, this is there's something, it's a very kind of like, it's a selfless thing to be kind of like, to be warmed to take time and to be some almost very present in that moment. Because often the reason that we're not is because we're stuck in our head about some sort of insecurity or thing about ourselves, or like some sort of anxiety that we've got or worry that we've got going into the chat or meeting or party or whatever. And then we bring that into the interaction.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  It's so cold.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  But it's all about you as opposed to just like putting all of your attention on the other person.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I wrote, slow down your first interaction. And the examples I gave were to make eye contact. And I know that can be some hard for some people, especially neurodiverse people, but I do find that making eye contact is a very warm thing. Say the person's name. I think that's a really lovely thing when they say your name. We meet so many people in here. We have so many first meetings in here with our job with people we interview. And when they say your name, it feels really.

• 1:23:33Speaker 02

  Feels nice.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's just really warm.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  And pause, like I think just pause rather than sort of rushing to the next thing or the next comment, just actually listening to what they're saying. And so that's my first one. Slow down your first interaction. The second one, which was more reflection on, I think, myself and my interactions with people. But the second one is assume something hard is going on for them.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Like just go into the conversation or interaction, assuming something hard is going on and go and start from that place. The example I have from another day is that Penny and I have just become friends with an incredible couple of parents who have, I won't go into the details because it's not my story to share, but they've been through the unthinkable, the most horrific thing you can imagine as a parent. Awful, we've just recently learned, but I didn't know that. I was walking past them the other day and they looked like they just didn't want to talk to me. Instead of just rush straight past and look the other way. And so my head's like, oh, have I done something? What did I say? Is it, have I, what's happened there? And I learned soon after that, I've been, I've had, experienced horrific pain and loss.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  And, and ever since that moment, the warmth that I bring to every interaction with them is, it's like maximum level warmth. Because I, I understand now they have been through something awful, are going through something still awful. And I think so often we make interactions about us. Did I do something? Just have the assumption they're going through something hard. So many people are. And it softens your tone, it softens your face and it creates patience.

• 1:24:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a great one. I, I had that realization years, like probably two or three years ago, I was on a plane. I can't remember if I've told this story or not, but I was on a plane and for whatever reason, I was like judging this guy in the row in front of me. Cause he was just like, as soon as he got on the plane, he was sitting in the middle of the row, like in the middle of the three. And he's just on his phone the whole time and just like being, taking up a lot of space and just being very much like on his phone and like, doing lots of huffing and puffing. And, and I was like, this guy, this guy, I'm just like, in my head, I'm just being annoying judging guys. Like, oh, bro, be present. Like, you know, like, you know, you should be so lucky to fly in an airplane. You're having all those sorts of like privileged thoughts and asking questions like, what time are we leaving? What time are we?

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  Being really, you know, needy, you know? And then I found out that his wife had just gone into labor early. And he wasn't able to get, he was worried that he was going to miss the birth. And I was just like, why don't I just assume going to every conversation, assuming they're going through something really, really hard? Cause even if they're not, worst case scenario, you're just being kind.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yep. Exactly. Everyone is going through something. Uh. Number three, um, I've just the title here is give specific examples of what you love, like be specific with when you're telling someone when you're sort of reflect. So the example I have is our child, our neurodivergent child who plays basketball had a really, it was a semifinal. It was so loud. It was sensory overload and the game is really close and it was a very rough team who were playing very physical, especially with our child. And they just kept my, so my, one of my best friends, Dolly, who I've spoken about before, Dolly came to the game because he's just a lovely supportive friend. What he sung along and he was standing behind me for the whole game and my child kept running off during the game because I were overwhelmed by the, it was too much for the neurodivergent

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  brain. And they would run off in tears and it happened four or five times in the second half. They were overwhelmed screaming and it was, it was truly one of, it was, I would say it was my hardest moment as, as a parent that I've ever been through. And it was amazing to have one of my best friends from school there. And he called me afterwards. We, we got through, our child got through it. I was so proud and I went back on the court. They came off five times. I went back on five times. It was an amazing effort by them. And my friend Dolly called me later that day and he just, he said, how are you? And I said, I'm pretty shaken. It was pretty full on. And so our child got pushed over by another child who just completely lost it and pushed them over. And Dolly said to me, I love how calm you stayed when that happened because it really had a big impact on your child, how calm you were. And that must've been so hard. And he just gave me these specific

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  examples of the things he loved about. I mean, he spent most of the time talking about the child, but he gave me these examples of specific things. So be specific with people rather than saying like, great to see you today, which above the case, but I loved this chat we had. I loved how we talked about, I love how you shared that. I think that's such a warm thing to do. Um, the heading I had here, I wrote this. This number four? Yeah. Number four. I wrote this, but I'll, I'll probably change the, I don't know why I thought this is a good heading for it. But the number four, it says, the heading I wrote is say it with chest, which I, it's like, I'm trying to reference like, um, put your body where your mouth is. Like your, your body says a lot as well. Body language. Yeah. Thank you. Body language. Body language is important.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So warmth isn't just words. It's your physical presence as well. So, uh, so. Say it with chest.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  But that to me, the reason I wrote that was I pictured, this is gonna sound weird. I pictured Laura, who we work with, or who works at Resilience Project, who's been working at Resilience Project for a long time, one of the warmest people I've ever met. When you talk to her, she turns to, if it's a big group of people, if it's like at lunchtime, people sitting around, she will turn to face you as she's talking to you. Yeah. Like she is, so the, and the amount of times I've started to talk to her and she says, hang on, and she, you see her put her phone away, like she'll put it in her pocket, she'll put it, she'll turn it upside down somewhere, she puts her phone away, she turns to face you and she nods a lot as you're talking, like you're doing right now. Nods so much as you're saying things and her face reflects the emotion, what you're

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  saying. If you're telling her a sad story, she looks like she's about to cry. If you're telling her a fun story, she's laughing. Like her face is, she's living the story with you and it's just so body language, not say with the chest, body language, turn to face them. Yeah. Actually put your phone away so to know, so the person you're talking to cannot see it and maybe reflect back to them in the story with your face. Yeah. Um, the final one I had here, number five, was finish the interaction with intention. So finishing the conversation with a comment that references what matters to them most at that time. So what they're, what is happening in their life that's big for them, that they've maybe shared with you, you might end up toward another group of people, but before you say

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  goodbye to that person, um, um, good luck with your child's entrance exam to that, that you just told me about, or just, just reference something important from their life. The point Shane did that before he left, he kind of gave us all an individual farewell that referenced something that meant something to us. And I, and I, that was something that really, it just made me think that is, that is such a warm thing to do. Like I listened and I know it's important to you and I just, before I go, I just want to say that I'm thinking of you for that reason. Hmm. The Bill Brasson approach. Oh yeah, explain that.

• 1:30:18Speaker 03

  Well, I, so years ago, I filmed, I was taking photos of Bill Bryson, the author. He was doing a live tour and he had a meet and greet backstage. And my job was to take photos of him and the people who had paid for their special. There was about 15 of them who had paid a lot of money to be able to meet him afterwards and have a chat. And because he's such an amazing storyteller and such an amazing writer, a lot of people wanted to tell him a lot about what's going on in their life. And he was this incredible listener and I noticed that in every conversation he had before leaving, he would say, I do have to talk to someone else, but how did your, did your son finish school? Like, what was the outcome of that?

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:59Speaker 03

  And he would always say, I do have to go because he had to talk to everyone in the room. But he'd always have a question, very specific about the conversation that had been happening. And we always leave with that question. And I noticed the way it made everyone feel, they just felt, felt like they actually got a real experience with him.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:31:17Speaker 03

  And then they really had a conversation and that he really cared, which I think he, he seems like a person that does just care and loves meeting people and love story.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:31:24Speaker 03

  And it was, yeah, it was an incredibly warm room. Yeah, because of him. Yeah.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I just feel like we all remember someone who's made us feel warm and has displayed warmth. And I think the beautiful thing about it is it's not something you have or you don't have, it's something you can practice.

• 1:31:40Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  I think in a world that feels tense and disconnected, it could just be, I think, one of the most important things we have to offer each other right now.

• 1:31:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's such a good thing to think about. I'm so glad you brought it up because it is something that Jam and I often talk about a lot, which is like the people, the people in our life that we love the most. And they're always the people who are like the warm people. But when I think about them, I do not think about what they do. I do not, like in terms of work. And I just think that's just, it's, it's always a good thing to remember that like the, the, the quality of person you are has nothing to do with how much you've achieved or how well you do. It's about how warm, how warm you are and how thoughtful and present. And like, that is ultimately what matters. Yeah.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:34Speaker 03

  Well, thank you, Hugh, and thank you, Shane.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, mainly thank you, Shane.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, but thank you, Hugh.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  And good luck to me, still a gift on Sunday, so good luck to me.

• 1:32:41Speaker 03

  Good luck to you.

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  Always good to be specific about something you're doing.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Warmth to myself.

• 1:32:49Speaker 03

  Thanks, guys. Good to see you both. Yeah, great to catch up.

• 1:32:52Speaker 02

  And thank you for that great Bill Bryson story, Josh.

• 1:32:57Speaker 03

  Okay, goodbye.

• 1:33:00Speaker 03

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