Missy Higgins & Dr Emily - Burnt Out But Still Parenting

Do you feel the type of exhaustion that just doesn’t go away, even after a few good nights of sleep? Do you feel yourself becoming emotionally distant from your kids to protect yourself from huge emotions? Have you noticed that you’re feeling less joy from parenting moment? You might be in parental burnout. This episode isn’t about judgement, at all. Rather, we welcome you to an episode of the Imperfects which aims to make you feel seen, less guilty, less alone, as we’re joined by the very special two guests, Missy Higgins and Dr Emily Musgrove. 💌 To join our journaling club, with 10,100 + others, subscribe to my imperfect email - https://www.theimperfects.com.au/sign-up-to-our-newsletter/ We touch on the difference between depression and parental burnout, the risk factors of parental burnout, the perfect mother myth, and how to deal with perfectionistic tendencies. There SO MANY helpful things in this episode, and stories from Hugh, Josh, Missy and Em to make you feel like a good enough parent. Chapters 00:00:00 TRAILER 00:01:34 Missy returns: singer, songwriter and single parent 00:05:20 Hugh's Burnout: When Everything Felt Impossible 00:08:14 Defining Parental Burnout: It's Not About Your Kids 00:12:58 Depression vs Burnout: How to Tell the Difference 00:23:35 The Shock of Parenthood: Nobody Told Us It Would Be Like This 00:29:06 My Cortisol is Where?! 00:33:44 Escape Fantasies 00:36:27 Our Parents Had It Easier: Tennis, Newspapers & Benign Neglect 00:40:13 Perfectionism: The Biggest Risk Factor for Burnout 00:46:13 The Chicken Nugget Meltdown: When Missy Snapped 00:49:59 The Perfect Mother Myth: Intensive Motherhood Ideology 00:52:34 Mental load, resentment + your partner 00:58:55 Single Parenting & Separation: Missy's Experience 01:09:52 Asking for Help: Why It's So Hard & Why We Must 01:13:48 Rest is productive! 01:24:07 Dropping your standards: becoming a good enough parent 01:30:12 A Little More Imperfects 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode Hugh van Cuylenburg - This Is Burnout - https://bit.ly/4yXsUEB Missy Higgins - Quitting Music, Depression & Connection - https://bit.ly/4eetAhh The Vulnerabilitea House - Missy Higgins - https://bit.ly/4Ai1sm5 Zoë Foster Blake - Perimenopause, ADHD & Everything That Helped with Dr Fatima Khan - https://bit.ly/4iqLS1d Dr Louise Newson - Maybe It’s Menopause - https://bit.ly/4ekisQ1 Dr Lousie Newson - It’s Hormones. Period. - https://bit.ly/4kznVWU Dr Edna Lekgabe - New Baby … New Brain … Matrescence. - https://bit.ly/4jTko5B Maggie Dent - ‘Good Enough’ Parenting is Good Enough - https://bit.ly/4sFhFyO Chrissie Swan - Honesty - https://bit.ly/4yWmgOJ How To Audit Your Mental Load with Prof. Leah Ruppanner - https://bit.ly/4f7g4fB 📚Things to research Parental Burnout Assessment by Isabelle Roskam, Moira Mikolajczak & Maria-Elena Brianda - https://bit.ly/4sGktvL Vivek Murphy’s Advisory on Parental Stress - https://bit.ly/48DLeaM The Cultural Contradictions of Motherhood, by Sharon Hays - https://bit.ly/4z1nXus The Child, The Family, and the Outside World, by Donald Winnicott - https://bit.ly/3X7fE2H 📺 Things to watch Girls - https://bit.ly/4BGo413 🩷For More Missy GET TICKETS HERE - https://www.missyhiggins.com Listen to A Complicated Truth here, https://bit.ly/4ztZoY8 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - theimperfects.com.au/shop 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - patreon.com/theimperfects 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Missy Higgins.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  I'm still in shock at what parenting is actually like in reality.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  And Dr Emily.

• 0:07Speaker 02

  This struggle here to be perfect comes from a place of wanting to love your kids in the best possible way.

• 0:13Speaker 00

  Are the special too. Guests in this week's episode about parental burnout.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  When we're talking about parental burnout, we're not talking about placing blame on the child or the children, but it's the role of parenting itself.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  The feeling of responsibility too of like, I'm growing this human into an adult and it's my responsibility to make sure that they have happy memories, that they're a secure adult that doesn't have to spend too much money on therapy. But it's also like, wow, this is so much harder actually than I thought it was going to be.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  Burnout is a slow and gradual movement into collapse.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  And what does collapse look like on Missy's family holiday?

• 0:55Speaker 01

  I just flipped. I was just like, you're the fucking problem. You're what's wrong with the world. Mum's not supporting mums. And she was kind of taken aback because I really ripped her a new one.

• 1:08Speaker 00

  Quick, is anyone here a doctor? Yes, her name is Dr Emily and she's a psychologist. Please welcome to the imperfect, our very own psychologist.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  Well, yes, a very welcome to our own, very own psychologist, but we also have our very own OG guest here with us. As a guest co-host, we have Missy Higgins with us. Welcome to you, Missy.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Thank you. So good to be here. Oh my God, that's my phone.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  I could have sworn it was silent. No, I don't need to answer.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  I have done this before.

• 1:48Speaker 03

  Couldn't have been better time.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  I'm honoured to be here.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  We're joined by Missy Higgins, who was our first ever guest on the Imperfects podcast back in, I don't know, a long time ago.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  And you were the only one interviewing, and I think Josh, you were on sound?

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  You're in another room, I think. Yeah.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that's right. I think I had to leave.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  Well, the reason was, it was our first interview and I was so nervous and I didn't think the first time would be with Missy Higgins, but it was. And I just got so nervous, I couldn't handle the thought of someone listening, which is ironic because we're hoping a lot of people did listen. But I said, Josh, I'd like you to leave the room.

• 2:24Speaker 00

  I completely forgot. I've banished from the recordings. Yeah.

• 2:27Speaker 03

  But you are like such a big part of the story of this show. And I think one of the reasons we were able to reach so many people so early on was because you were so willing to be the first one to, to join us. So it's.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. But we have so many people still to this day saying they just love your episodes so much.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good. Yeah. Just the, the ideal imperfect person to have on your. Lots of imperfections to talk about.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  So today's topic, we're going to talk about parental burnout. And there's a few reasons, Missy, here. Instead of trialing with the Dr M episodes, having a few different co-hosts where we think they might have, it might be relevant to have them on. And with the, with the topic of parental burnout, we love Ryan so much. He's so funny and so lovely.

• 3:14Speaker 00

  Doesn't have a lot to offer.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  But we, we, we weren't sure how much he'd have to offer. He would try to offer something definitely, but we weren't sure how much he had to offer on the topic of parental.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Just the occasional, this is why I don't have kids.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Could help him in his decision. This one could be the one that makes the decision final.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  But we also have, we also thought it was really important to have a woman's perspective on this and mum's perspective on this because I think two dads and a non-dad discussing it. We thought.

• 3:40Speaker 00

  Something's missing.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, something's missing. So, Em, you're a fan of Missy Higgins, by the way?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Don't say that. What if she isn't?

• 3:47Speaker 03

  Well, I know that she is.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  I am jealous. I'm just like.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  Not really. That'd be so good.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  We'll cut that bit out.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  No, I'm thrilled.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  Okay, very good. So, sorry to embarrass you. So we do have four parents in the room here. We have two mums, two dads. We have nine kids total. Yeah, that's nine kids total. Thank you.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Two, two, two, three?

• 4:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  But Missy, just for those who don't know, what are your parenting statistics?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  I've got an eight-year-old daughter and an 11-year-old boy. And I've been separated from my partner, my husband, for about four years. So I've been single moming it. I have a partner, but he lives in Sydney. So it's a, it's a tricky kind of co-parenting situation, but we're making it work.

• 4:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay. Yes, parental burnout. Where would you like to start?

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I wanted to acknowledge that, you know, this is a topic that I have seen in my practice again and again. And it felt really pertinent that, that we talk about what this means and to give it a name and understand it, you know, really with the hope that we can either prevent burnout or we can learn how to move out of it in a really kind of healthy way. So I wondered if maybe we might go back to actually a clip from an episode that you did last year, I think, on burnout, to really kind of exemplify what this experience can feel like when you're right in the middle of it.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Okay. So the first one, which sounds like an obvious thing, but just constant exhaustion. But when I say constant, it's like, there is no point when I don't feel, there's nothing I can do to make me not feel completely exhausted. So both physically and emotionally. So when I get home at the end of the day, I sit down, I can't, I just can't get up. Like, there is so much to do in a house of three kids. I just, it is so hard to get up once I've sat down. And like in the morning, so for the, most of this year, I've been getting up an hour before everyone else does in the house and doing things that I know really help me and my brain to function for the day. I can't, I can't get out of bed anymore. I just cannot get out of bed. And I'm sharing, because we've moved into a smaller

• 6:05Speaker 03

  place at the moment, I'm in a bed with Elsie. So we're sleeping in bed together. And I just can't get up. Everyone gets up and starts the day and I just cannot. I find it so hard getting out of bed.

• 6:15Speaker 04

  There is, there are some times where, you know, and I, and there are times when Jam, my partner Jam, when she's like really down or anxiety or depression has like taken hold and, and all of the, like, it gets to a point sometimes where it's like, all the self-helpy things, all the tools, they just don't work.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:33Speaker 04

  It's just, it's just like, there are some points where it's like, you can go like, okay, do this technique or this meditation or break, you know, and they do, they can be really great. But sometimes when it's really extreme, it's like, all that.

• 6:46Speaker 03

  It's a big jump to get to, to, to, because at the start of the year, I was like, I'd wake up and go, oh yes, I got to do breathwork and I get to cycle. And then I get to the podcast and I do some exercise at seven at work. And everything was exciting. And now I just lie there going, what, what's the point of getting out of bed? Nothing is going to make me feel good today.

• 7:02Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  So I wonder, first of all, even in hearing that, Hugh, how did that feel to hear that back?

• 7:10Speaker 03

  You know, I just sort of, for some reason, felt smug that I'm not in that place now. I was like, yeah, that silly guy who, who decided to get up an hour before everyone every single day to do all this like self-helpy stuff to try and feel good for the day. And at the start of this year, my psychiatrist said, I'm going to actually write you a prescription for an extra hour of sleep. Actually, he wrote it on a script and gave it to me and said, do not get up and do those things. You don't, you are drawing an energy that you do not have. An extra hour of sleep is a much better thing to do. But yeah, I, everything I said then it felt, I really felt that, like, yeah, but I'm not in that place now. So it feels nice.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  You, you also, you sound exhausted.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 7:50Speaker 00

  You sound so broken.

• 7:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't, I feel bad because I don't think I noticed it enough at the time. But looking at you now and hearing that, it's, it's a different person.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  Well, at that time, I was saying to people, well, yeah, it's just, when I was trying to explain to people, I'd say, well, the podcast has done a lot of episodes and Resonance podcast office have got two full-time jobs. But I look back on it now, it wasn't that. It was, it was parenting. It was the, it was the journey of parenting at that point.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  And I think maybe what feels really significant perhaps to mention at the start is that when we're talking about parental burnout, we're not talking about placing blame on the child or the children, but it's the role of parenting itself that we need to kind of hold as the catalyst for this experience. This is not about blaming or a child feeling responsible for a parent's psychological wellbeing. So I wanted to kind of even just starting off with kind of understanding what parental burnout is. You know, we've often talked about burnout and even the World Health Organisation defines burnout with respect

• 8:54Speaker 02

  to occupational functioning, so job burnout. But really what we know is that any kind of burnout is a physiological response to chronic stress. So it's first of all, this physiological reaction to accumulation of a lot of stress. And when we think about parental burnout, it's really a state of emotional, physical and mental exhaustion that is caused by this accumulation of demand and fewer resources in your role as a parent.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  When you hear that, Missy, do you think, I reckon I've been there before? Or has it not ever got to that point for you?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  I've either never been there or I'm constantly in that. Cause I just, well, I notice, I, I recognise a lot of those things. We're just, I mean, so many people I know, particularly women of around my age are in that constant state of exhaustion. And every day you wake up and it's like.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  You're not starting fresh. You're like, starting in a deficit. So it's like, okay, you've just, you're just kind of scrambling to kind of get your head above water all day.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  And yeah, I know that I, sometimes I, I, I reach extreme exhaustion. Like I had a gig a couple of months ago, up north, at this beautiful, uh, sandstone point it was. And I, I took my kids and my partner and I was just feeling so depleted. And I remember we got there and we had this little, you know, hut that we were all staying in. And I was just like, I don't know how I'm gonna go on stage tomorrow night. Like, I just felt so, like I was running on about five percent capacity. And my partner was just like, he'd never seen me like that before. And he was really worried. And I just, when we got into the little villa, I just, I got straight

• 10:58Speaker 01

  into bed. And yeah, my capacity just felt so incredibly low because also I was parenting at the same time as work. And I think like, going on tour is quite a lot. And then I had my kids with me and it just, it just tipped me over into this space of like, I'm actually unable to function. I managed to get up on stage and it was fine. Like I think adrenaline kicked in and I was like, okay, I actually feel a bit better now. But before then I was, there was this thought going on in my head of like, I don't know how, actually don't know how I'm gonna do this.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Well, there is this, this very common characteristic, probably one of the, the most common characteristics, you know, is this state of exhaustion that is really not, um, in any way fixed or helped by like a few good night's sleep. So, um,

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, my partner's constantly saying to me, it's like, you have, like, you have way more sleep than I do and you wake up so tired. And I'm like, don't make me feel bad about that. I just, I just need a lot of sleep. I don't know what it is.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think like in some ways that's kind of such a good hallmark for us to be aware of is that when I'm waking up exhausted after I've had a good night's sleep or consecutive good night's sleep, this is a really big indicator of the immense demand that has accumulated across time, that is basically not fixed by sleeping. So we know that there is, you know, in this state of chronic, ongoing stress, that basically our internal resources get depleted and depleted across time. Um, and at some point, uh, we can actually see, and there's some really interesting research around this, that the body moves into a

• 12:41Speaker 02

  state of collapse. So this yearning to be in bed, some people will find that they actually even physically can't get out of bed, um, or can't bring themselves up into, to be mobilized.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  What's the difference between that and a, a big bout of depression? How do you know the difference?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  That's such a good question. And there is, there's overlap and there's also, um, that this experience can lead to a depressed mood or a depressive episode. One of the, one of the interesting indicators is that in depression, we have a persistent and chronic low mood. And that's pervasive across all different parts of your life. But in parental burnout, you might find that when you go to work, you feel, you don't feel the same as how you feel at home. Um, or when you're with your friends, you feel you have some kind of engagement, connection, energy. You might notice pockets of joyfulness or pleasure. And that's where we can kind of see that there's something that is happening in this parental role that is causing this experience.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  But they do, of course they overlap. And if you sit in parental burnout for a long period of time, then that of course can lead to a more, um, significant mental health experience of like a depressive episode. Absolutely.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Is there also an overlap with, um, perimenopause and hormones? Because I've noticed this extreme tiredness is way more prevalent in women in their forties, who I'm friends with who are parents.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Look, there's no question that that is playing into this as well. Um, and I'm obviously not an expert in, in hormones. So I would absolutely speak to, um, you know, some of the podcasts that you guys have had already. Louise Newsom's episode on this is brilliant. Um, but of course, there's no question that those changes in hormones are bringing about also changes in mood and changes in functioning. It also is a really big call then for us to pay attention to that. Um, and to think about how we can best support ourselves during that, during that season or that era.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yep. I was also wondering, listening to that clip of yours, Hugh, how you were talking about, you know, I used to get up and do my cycling and do my breathing. I was wondering how much of parenting burnout might happen because we're asking too much of ourselves and not listening to our bodies. Like, we've got these expectations of like, I've got to keep fit. I've got to do this and this and this. And there's huge, these high standards and like, you'd be so much better to listen to your body, listen to your hormones, listen to actually what you need rather than think externally, I should be achieving this, this, this.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is absolutely spot on. Um, and it's a, it's one of the, the biggest, um, pieces of intervention that we need to look at is how you tune into your experience, but particularly the role of perfectionism and high standards. So we might come back to that because I think that that really deserves a lot of attention.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  Josh, have you experienced parental burnout? Cause I know you've had your challenges with it.

• 15:48Speaker 00

  I think I have. Yeah. I, I don't think, I mean, I guess everything's on a scale. Like I don't think I've gotten to a point where I couldn't get out of bed or anything. But I, I feel that there's been moments where like, it's a

• 16:00Speaker 03

  Cause you are very hands on dad. Like you're very involved and you're

• 16:03Speaker 00

  I try to be. I try to do as much as I possibly can. It's like, as I think anyone who listens to this show, it's probably my number one focus in life is being the best dad I can be. But therefore, when you fail to meet that standard, it's really hard. And it's really, um, like I, I remember a time about a year ago, when, um, I was just getting it. I think as Missy, as you said, it was like hard for me to tell whether it was a depressed sort of, because I was going through a bit of that as well. Um, but I think that kind of, as you said, intertwined and maybe one led to the other. But I remember getting to, the way the week goes for us at home is that Fridays is my day

• 16:42Speaker 00

  with the kids by myself. Um, and then because that leads into the weekend, in this specific weekend, I think Soph had, was going out for dinner on Friday night. And then she, as she was leaving for work on the Friday, she's like, oh, and I've got the gym on Saturday morning. And I remember just thinking like, I don't think I can do it. Like, I don't think I can, and it feels so unreasonable to be like, I just, but at that time, I was like, I've got all Friday with them. And then I've got Friday night and then I'll be waking up and I'll have them for those first few hours. And I think in my mind, I was like, I was so exhausted and I was so wondering, I don't know how I'm gonna get through Friday alone with these kids, let alone Friday night and then wake up on

• 17:26Speaker 00

  Saturday morning and it's all on me again, which I know is not that much. And when I'm doing fine, it's, it's fine. It's easy. And it's just like, I, I look forward to it. And I'm, I, it's an exciting thing to think of the things we can do together. But I almost burst into tears of like, I, I can't do those two hours on the Saturday morning. I don't know how I'm going to. And then all this guilt and shame comes in because it feels so bad to put that on your partner. But it's like the most reasonable thing in the world for her to go out for dinner on Friday with her friends and then go to the gym on Saturday morning. And she's working, like we're both doing our absolute best to do this. Um, and this is in a relationship where, and I'm aware that a lot of

• 18:10Speaker 00

  people are either raising kids by themselves, or they're in a relationship where it's nowhere, not even close to even, but we're doing our best to make it even. And I still am like, I, I feel this shame that I can't admit to struggling because it's like, we're, we're, then it's

• 18:28Speaker 01

  The other person is doing just as much as you are.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  Just as much as me.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. So why do you complain?

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. Why should I complain? And like, why is it like, then it's just gonna put more on her? And then it makes her feel bad for going to the gym, which is ridiculous that she should feel bad for that. Um, and even still, like last week, she, and I think there's like, because I've brought it up, I think there's a little hangover in the Relationship there because like this exact scenario happened last Friday.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  And it was not an issue at all. It's like, but I think she still feels a little bit bad. Cause she's like, oh, I've got the gym. And then she was, then she had like another brunch on Sunday. That I found out was on through one of my friends that she just didn't tell me about and wasn't going to go to. Cause she felt bad.

• 19:07Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 19:08Speaker 00

  That I was going to be doing like parenting for sort of three days majority.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  And like you have to go to that brunch and like, um, and talked about it. But I feel terrible that I think there's still a bit of a hangover from that time that I just couldn't do it.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Look, I don't think that your experience would be in any way uncommon.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  And you know, what I hear in there also, Josh, is the, the high standards. And the contrast between where you want to be and where you are.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Um, and that kind of leads into a little bit of understanding the experience of parental burnout. So I'm going to want to speak here to, to researchers that have paved the pathway to understanding parental burnout. And they're two Belgium researchers, um, Moira Mikulajak and Isabel Roskam. And they've done some incredible research that have incorporated numerous interviews with over, you know, thousands of parents that are experiencing this. And they have developed their own tool to assess parental burnout. But they identify really kind of four key characteristics that really kind of tell us we're in burnout.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  And the first one, most obviously is exhaustion. So that's kind of the first, uh, the first physical sign often, this, you know, immense exhaustion that again is not, uh, changed by a few, a few nights good sleep. The second one that occurs when you're experiencing this exhaustion is that, a natural byproduct of that is that you start to become emotionally distant or distanced from your children. Because you don't have the energy to be attuned to their needs in the same way that you do when you're not exhausted. Um, so we get this distancing. So I'm literally kind of moving away. I'm often sitting in this kind of state of shutdown, almost.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  I can't be as responsive to them.

• 21:00Speaker 03

  Potentially, because there can be, in my experience, a little feeling of resentment as well. Like you're doing, you're doing this to me.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  Which is so unfair, but I can't help it feel sometimes like you're putting, you're making me bad.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. I think it's.

• 21:14Speaker 03

  Which is so unfair.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it's, it's not necessarily very, it's very understandable. It's very understandable that that feeling arises. Because again, if we look at the, the emotion there, if resentment is arising, it's a signal about something that's being taken away from me. And that is energy or time or space, finances, whatever it might be.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  Joy.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the resentment, you know, is a signal of that kind of loss or that kind of violation in some ways. Yeah.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. I feel such, I feel a lot of guilt around that because I feel like I, I, in the moment, it's like, oh yeah, I can, it's, I can say to myself, it's a fact that if I didn't have kids, I wouldn't be like this.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 21:58Speaker 00

  But then when I catch myself thinking like that, I'm like, I can't believe I'm blaming a three-year-old child for my state of mind. Like it is so unfair to put this on.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 00

  This child and that kind of compounds the exhaustion.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  You're exactly right. Yeah. And so we can see the interplay here also of guilt and shame, which I'll mention in a minute. But when this emotional exhaustion happens, when we have a sense of distancing from our children, we also then of course are going to experience a loss of pleasure. So, you know, things that might, might have made you laugh about what they were doing. Um, or the experiences of hugging a child, of feeling this loving feeling is no longer there. So there's a distancing from that previous experience of a pleasure or joy or, uh, connection.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  Hmm. Hi, it's Ryan from The Imperfects and I'm reaching out to you now because we need your help, gosh darn it. Why, why do we need? Sorry. No, we're, I'm just, uh, making a plea to the listeners and viewers to ask them to subscribe to the show in whichever way they see fit because it really helps. The more subscribers, the better we can make this show. Am I right?

• 23:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I don't think we need to, I think we could just ask them politely.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, but if I use the emotional music. I think the music's a bit much. Is it?

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Who's playing that music?

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Doesn't matter who's playing the music. The important thing is we're pulling at the heartstrings and asking them to do us a solid. Could we not just ask, like, just ask them straight? Like. Oh. It'd really help us if you guys subscribed because we would be able to make more of the show and make the show better. Hmm. Oh, and not use emotional manipulation. Yeah.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I reckon.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  Well, you can give it a go, but I doubt it'll work.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  I wonder, I'm just thinking about that and I'm thinking, I feel like so many parents, um,

• 23:43Speaker 01

  really kind of have this moment where they go, oh, there's not as many joyous moments parenting as I was told that there would be. You know, like, no one knows what parenting is going to be like. There's no amount of movies or watching, you know, people in your life go through parenting that can possibly prepare you for the ratio of hugs and tantrums. It's like, it's really, really unexpected what it's like. I mean, and the gratifying moments, they do make up for all the crappy moments. But it's like, there's also a lot of crappy moments. And sometimes I feel like this shock, I'm still in shock at what parenting is actually like in reality.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Um, and like, you love this thing more than you ever expected you could possibly love anything. So the, the feeling of responsibility too of like, I'm growing this human.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Into an adult and it's my responsibility to make sure that they have happy memories, that they're a secure adult that doesn't have to spend too much money on therapy. And, um, so it's like this huge burden, but it's also like, wow, this is so much harder actually than I thought it was going to be. And this person kind of came prepackaged too. Like I'm not really like molding them into the, the thing that I thought I was going to. They're kind of just like becoming themselves regardless. It's just, it's all a big shock. It's still, it's still shocking.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I think that's absolutely, absolutely spot on. And interestingly, like the fourth characteristic of this burnout is the experience of contrast. So the contrast from either what I thought I would be as a parent, what I used to be as a parent versus what I am currently experiencing. So there's this big gap and discrepancy between what I thought it would A be and what I would be and, and what is actually here.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there's, there's just so much shame that you're dealing with on a daily basis.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that's the clincher is that if you, if you almost like look at the cascading experience of emotional exhaustion, distancing, loss of pleasure, the big contrast and judgment that then shows up. The most obvious outcome is deep shame and guilt.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And as we know, that's one of the most painful places to be sitting in.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  And then you've got social media or just the internet in general telling you that this, these are, these are the 10 things you can do to not screw up your child. And you're like, I'm doing all of those things. Just the standard feels so high. I mean, you're, you're talking about like the, the, the guilt and the, the shame that you were feeling, Josh. And I was just thinking, well, who are you comparing yourself to? Like in your mind, what kind of parent did you think you would be? And who was that model for you as a father?

• 26:33Speaker 00

  I mean, that's a, geez, that's a good question. I, I think, um,

• 26:38Speaker 00

  I, I mean, to be honest, I, I have an image of like perfection with parenting that I strive for and have a problem with.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  But, but where did that come from?

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Mum was pretty good.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying you should rate your parents.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  But like, is it, I'm trying to gauge whether it's from the internet or whether it's from something you've actually seen.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  It's, I don't think it's from the internet for me. I, I think it's from, I think you hit the nail on the head before when you're talking about like, I don't, I, I don't want to stuff up these kids. Like it's the effect that I might have on them when I think about all the things that you can be doing to, and you should be doing. It's failing at those things. And I think there's a real, I, I've had for my whole life, a real problem with, um, time. And like the passing of time and wasting time and knowing that I'll never get this back.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  And so I think there's a guilt and shame there that like, I'm stuffing this up and I'm never going to get another shot at it, you know?

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  The, um, the one thing that I've heard that really helped me is actually what my, I, I'm not sure if she was the first person to say this, but what Maggie Dent said when she was on here. That thing of like being good enough, 30 to 40% of the time. And I think when I look at it, even when I've been close to burnout, I think I've been good enough. 30% of the time, which takes a bit of pressure off.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  Which feels like that's better than a good night's sleep, if that makes sense.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think we'll come to that.

• 28:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Because that's such a significant aspect of working with this experience.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And to, to your point, I think Missy, or maybe what you're alluding to. So I think that there's so much pressure from, I guess you could say on the internet, but just generally in life, I feel these days for like, I think parental roles and expectations and like of what people should be in the 21st century, I think has kind of evolved and changed. And there's so much pressure to be able to do it all, at all times. Like to be able to do that, have a full-time job, be the perfect full-time parent, all that kind of stuff. And I think, I think a lot of us are just kind of working it out in a very changing world as well. Yeah.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think that's really interesting. And there's, there was some, um, research that came out in about 2024. And it was, um, it was communicated by the US Surgeon General Vivek Morthi. And he outlined that we are, we are working more than we were two decades ago.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  And we're also child caring more than we were two decades ago. So both have increased.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  And we're on our phones for five hours a day.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:17Speaker 03

  So we're.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. So if both our, our, the work demands, we're spending more time at work, we're also spending more time child caring or involved in parenting. The, the big question that sits in there is like, well, what's happened with that loss of time?

• 29:32Speaker 02

  We have less time of something. And I think that that in some ways tells us a little bit about why we might be more vulnerable now to parental burnout than we were two decades ago. But I thought it was, it might be really worthy of acknowledging first of all, that this is again, a physiological syndrome. And there was the research, some of the research again, conducted by Michaela Jack and Roscom, have looked at cortisol levels. And I have to say at the top, obviously, I'm not a scientist. So this is going to be very like topline information, but we'll give the citations for this. That they measured cortisol levels by using hair follicles. So they take hair follicles and then what they can do is assess your cortisol levels over the preceding three months.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Didn't know cortisol was in your hair.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  So they can measure it through the hair follicle and.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  That why I started going grey when I was 26.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  That explains a lot.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Stress a little bit.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  I had so much, it just fell out.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  Can't bear the weight of this cortisol.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  So is it like a timeline of your last few months?

• 30:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's the preceding.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, like rings on a tree.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So the preceding three months.

• 30:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  And what in their, their research, what they found was that the people that were in parental burnout had double the amount of cortisol levels than non burnt out parents. So their cortisol levels were twice as high as parents that were not in that experience. So it's not parenting specifically that is causing the burnout. There are other conditions and factors that, that will lead you into that place.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  What do you mean? Doesn't the burnout just cause cortisol? Or are you saying that it's because of the cortisol they got into burnout?

• 31:22Speaker 02

  No, more that it's not being a parent by itself that causes you to become burnt out. It's certain conditions that arise in your parenting role that are causing chronic stress, a prolonged stress.

• 31:38Speaker 00

  And then that stress is indicated by the cortisol and the stress causes the burnout.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Okay. Yes. So there's a physiological, there's a big physiological depletion that's occurring. And there's a whole lot of stuff in there around what's called the HPA axis to do with like basically collapse. What they also found was that the, the cortisol levels in burnt out parents was much higher than people living with chronic pain, which is also fascinating. So I think that research speaks so significantly to just how serious this is. And the very real implications for us as humans sitting in that kind of state. And it would be really remiss of me not to mention that for someone that is sitting in this state

• 32:27Speaker 02

  in certain circumstances, there are very real and significant implications, both for their own physical and emotional health, but also for the physical and emotional health of the child. So at its extreme, if you imagine that you have a parent that is emotionally distanced, shut down, no longer receiving any pleasure from their parenting. You know, you can see the outcome of an experience of neglect for a child. You can also see, and we know this from the research, that there's an increased likelihood of, for example, substance abuse, addiction,

• 33:06Speaker 02

  suicidal ideation for a parent. The yearning, this is really common. And I think we may have spoken about this before, the yearning to escape.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  The yearning to, to be taken to hospital with some non life threatening illness, but it would take me away from my role.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  I can relate to that. I've, I've, I can literally remember fantasizing about just having to go to hospital.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  And I'd be like, I'll, I'll just be in a bed and someone will bring me food. And everyone will just say, you just rest, Missy. You just rest. Like just something extreme.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  This is a bit dark, but um, I think like six months ago, I was just going for a jog. And I was in such a bad headspace that I was, I was running down this hill near, near my house. It has cars just whizzing up it. And I just thought, it, it, it wasn't actually suicidal, I don't think. But it was more just like, if I go to the left a bit, a car will hit me. And then everything can just stop for a bit. And I'll have to go, I'll just have to be, you know, I can, all, all of this pressure that's just building up and building up can just stop.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  And everyone would just, you know, people will take care of my kids for a bit. And I'll be like, no, don't worry about a thing, Missy.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  You know, and it's just.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  The demands are taken away.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So your mind does go to these really extreme ways to escape.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it makes sense that our minds, and this is the same with suicidal ideation too, is that it's a symptom of the immense distress and pain and overwhelm that's here. And it's a very normal and natural human desire to get rid of pain. So it, the mind can come up with um, escape fantasies. You know, how, how is it that I get away from this feeling? Because this feeling, this experience, this life is so hard to be in. Yeah.

• 34:56Speaker 03

  I really relate to that, Missy, like different versions. Like I'm just a stranger, I'm watching football and I'd see someone get knocked out. And they get literally carried off and I stretch out and it looks like, I mean, obviously this is a very serious thing for people to go through. It's quite topical in football at the moment, but I would look at that and go, ah, that would be, I would like that. That would, that looks like a deep rest and they're going to hospital. So the same thing.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And because I think the thing is with, with parenting is coming back to that huge responsibility you feel. There's no, there's no out. Like you're in burnout and you wake up and you still have to take care of your kids. Like it's absolutely relentless. So it's like, there's no, there's no way out of this. And it's not like you don't want to be a parent, but you just, you just feel like no one's going to come and rescue this from me. I've got to figure out a way to do this long-term because this is a very long-term commitment.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:48Speaker 03

  I remember, I actually remember the feeling, Missy, of on, I think our first child was born on a Tuesday, I think it was. And I remember getting to Friday and it was like a Friday night and I was like, the first few days were exhausting and shocking and everything. And we're going to the Friday night and going, oh, it's the weekend tomorrow. And then going, hang on, he doesn't know, he doesn't know it's a weekend. He's not getting him going, well, it's a weekend, I'll give him a rest. And I would be going, oh, hang on. And this is forever now. This is like, this is for a long time. So it is relentless thing of going to bed. I've got nothing to give here and I'm not going to get much sleep here. And I've got to go again tomorrow with, with nothing. And there's no escape from this.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Yes. And I always think about our parents' generation and they just, I don't know, but it seemed like they had it much more chill. Because I think that they expected way less of themselves as parents.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's just like, let the kid out and let the kid run all day and disappear.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  And I'm not going to track them or worry about them. It's just like, they'll survive.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  I have vivid memories of mum and dad doing two things, reading the newspaper. Like, why did they hand you what the fuck?

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Every morning.

• 36:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Can you imagine?

• 36:56Speaker 03

  No, I can't. And, and adults played tennis back then. Like, I thought when you're an adult, you play tennis. No one's got time for tennis.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  And parties, like big parties with kids running around. Why would I bring my kid to a party? I'd defeat the entire purpose.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  All these things happened in my childhood that don't happen in my kids' childhood. Because how would it happen?

• 37:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you remember, I recently I bought in a book for, in our Patreon episodes?

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  And there, there's a scene in the book where the dad's like, uh, it was like quite a big deal that the dad was taking the kid to the park for a start. It was like, whoa, look at this dad, what a great dad.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  What a weirdo.

• 37:35Speaker 00

  Book from the seventies. But when he went there, he, he takes his paper under his arm and he just sat on the bench and read the paper for like the whole time the kid was playing.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is the equivalent of being on your phone now.

• 37:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, true. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I often wonder that, but I also wonder, it was like, or was I protected from how hard it was for them? Like because I was the child. I, I wonder, I wonder how much.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, it is of course possible, but we absolutely know that the parental expectations have exponentially increased. And we also have immediate modes of comparison through social media. And that kind of leads me to really talk about what are the risk factors for experiencing parental burnout? And I think the findings are really interesting. So in a lot of the research, what we know is that some of the factors that you might think are going to make you more likely to experience burnout actually have less of an effect than, than others. And so you might think, for example, that the number of children that you have is going to increase your likelihood of experiencing burnout.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  But it's actually only a very small effect. So the number of children is not a determinant of you having burnout. It can have a small effect, but not really that noticeable.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  We also know that.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  I find that so surprising.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  And wrong, cute.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  I disagree with you.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  You're like, that doesn't match up to my experience.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Of course, I want to acknowledge individual difference in all of this. But this is just what some of the research is suggesting.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  I was going to say, what if the extra kid, children come as twins or triplets? That feels like that's.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. There is an effect, of course, for if you have a child that has additional needs, that has a disability or that particular kind of temperament. But again, this was a smaller effect, which is also surprising.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Okay, disagree again, but okay.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  But there are a number of factors that weigh really heavily. But I want to emphasize that no one single factor is going to cause it. It's always going to be the combination of a number of them that will make you more vulnerable to experiencing burnout. And that that vulnerability is also weighed against the resources that you have. Okay. So I'll explain that also. And this is tricky because I, I am very wary of, of how we might experience a sense of blame in this. But one of the big factors is a personality factor and a tendency towards perfectionism and high standards.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  But I have to emphasise with this one in particular, that we also swim in an environment that often doesn't allow us to be able to relax some of those expectations. So as a starting point, there is a system at play here that is not supportive of us as parents. So we can look at, you know, access to childcare, for example, access to parental leave, all of these systemic factors, I guess, need to be mentioned just at the top. Ideally, we want to change the system, but in lieu of that, as an individual, and to be honest, as a therapist that will see individuals, we look at, okay, well, what is your individual experience?

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Okay, that's just a first thing I want to really acknowledge. But the research is pretty clear that when perfectionism and unrelenting standards are at play, you are more vulnerable to experiencing burnout. And there is a particular group of people where this is very pertinent, and I've seen it many, many times, is that if you have had a difficult upbringing, a difficult relationship with your primary caregivers, and you really want to be a parent, and the internal dialogue is, I don't ever want to do what my parents did to me, I don't want to do it that way,

• 41:48Speaker 02

  I don't ever want my child to feel X, Y and Z. We have this pressure here that's arriving with very good intention. And you want to be the best parent you can be, in some ways to make up for the immense lack of healthy parenting that you experienced. But the greatest challenge that people experience when they've had a difficult childhood and yearn to be a good enough parent, is that there has been no template for understanding how to do it. There's been no modelling of what good enough is.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  We only get what, what perfect parenting looks like on the outside.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  And so it's almost setting us up for immense stress, anxiety, worry, and relentless searching for the answers about how to do this in the best possible way.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  And I guess on top of that, you'd probably, if you're in that situation, you don't have your parents as a support network.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. Or the kind of guidance that you might need, you know, when you're in, deep in that struggle.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  Or the honesty of how, how messy your vision of perfection actually is.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:10Speaker 03

  So like, there's no, that in that support model from the, from your parent, the honesty of like, it was a lot harder than I made it look. Just things like that.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. There are basic needs there for nurturing and validation, and, and, and not there. And what I will say is that if you have had, you know, experiences of abandonment or lack of emotional nurturance, deprivation of those kind of primary needs, sometimes what can happen is that this may have been well managed for you prior to having children, but when you have a child, often it brings all of this up for you. And so it's not only that you're parenting now a helpless newborn, or toddlers that have their own individual temperaments, you're also now having to resolve a lot of the pain

• 44:04Speaker 02

  that was there for you as a child.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  And being triggered by everything that your kid does, probably.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And even sometimes those moments where you might find yourself saying something that your parents said.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  And then hating yourself for it.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, the shame and guilt that then arises. Yeah, yeah. So as we unpack perfectionism as a factor, it's, it has in my, in my mind, it has a lot more depth than it sounds on the surface. There's a lot more weight to what it means to be like the perfect mum, or the perfect dad. And I think that that really, you know, for me, really bears calling out with someone is like, this struggle here to be perfect, comes from a place of wanting to love your kids in the best possible way, but it's also really causing you a lot of harm and suffering.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it seems like it just comes down to, we, we just need to drop our standards. Like, seriously, of ourselves and of our parenting and, yeah. I can definitely relate. I mean, I, to be honest, I'm, I think I had pretty great parents and a pretty great upbringing, and I don't ever look at that and go, I've got to do the opposite. But I'm still a perfectionist for some reason.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  I still feel like, I've got to read up about this and that, and my particular kind of kids and parenting those types of kids. And I've been very obsessed with it over the years. And then as soon as one thing happens and I, and I hear, I hear some disapproval over my style of parenting, or, or disapproval about my kid's behaviour or something, I just turn into mama bear rage. Like, I feel so much shame and, like, we were at, a few years ago, we were in, we just went for this big family, extended family holiday to Bali. And we were in this big, kind of horrible family resort with like, this huge, you know,

• 46:03Speaker 01

  baimeri that we were just forced into like cattle every night. And it was so crowded, and all the kids were trying to get to the chicken nuggets, including mine. And I was standing there with, with Luna, and I put some chicken nuggets onto her plate, and she was just like, I wanted to put the chicken nuggets onto my plate.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  And she was so overwhelmed with just like, how much noise there was, how many kids were there, that it, you know, she, she had a big meltdown on the floor. And I was down on the ground with her, just, you know, feeling empathy towards her because, and at that point, she, she's autistic, but I didn't know at that point. I just knew that she was very, very overwhelmed and really struggling. And I was down there with her, just like, trying to talk to her and comfort her. And this mum, who's in the, the line for the nuggets.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  I'm already feeling really angry.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  She's just like, oh God, can you please get your child away? And I looked up at her.

• 47:07Speaker 03

  Is she still alive?

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, barely. You, you should have seen me, I just flipped. I was, I was just, I don't think I can probably say the words that I said to her on this podcast, but I was just like, can you not see that I'm seriously struggling with my child right now? And she's like, I'm a mum too, you know, and my kids want the nuggets. And that's when I really tore into it. I was like, you're the fucking problem. You're what's wrong with the world, mums not supporting mums. And she was kind of taken aback because I really ripped her a new one. And then, you know, I ended up like, gently carrying my daughter away, because I was

• 47:50Speaker 01

  like, I'm not dragging her out of this, you know, that would have been really awful and kind of traumatic. And my dad saw it all happen, and afterwards, he just went up to her and he's like, shame on you. She's like, shame on you! And my dad is like, the sweetest, gentlest man, but he saw, and he couldn't, like, he felt so sorry for me because I was really struggling as a mum, and, you know, this other mum was having a go at me. And, yeah, sometimes I think you feel so protective over your, your parenting and your, your children, and then when somebody says something that makes you feel like you're doing a really bad job, and, and because that's what it triggered in me, like, oh, I'm, I'm raising

• 48:34Speaker 01

  a spoilt child who I'm letting have a meltdown and, you know, and I'm not dragging her away like this woman thinks that I obviously should. And it just, for days afterwards, I was just fuming, I was like, is she right? I don't think she's right. No, she's definitely not right. But, you know, you, you take it so seriously, and it's so, it's the most important thing to you, is like, getting parenting right. And that's just, that's how much pressure we put on ourselves, it's like, and one little thing, and I just snapped.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Oh, I can absolutely understand that, yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 03

  I feel, I've just really felt that story very well. Maybe it was a lot in Bali going, I think Missy Higgins is going to write a song about that.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  So I wonder if that was the slight shock in her eyes, it's like, oh, oh shit, that's badly, Missy Higgins screaming at me.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  So good.

• 49:19Speaker 03

  But yes, I, I know that feeling of when your child's struggling and a parent makes it, yeah, it's, it's an awful, you know, we're meant to be on the same team, like, we're meant to be with parents.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that's a really, really important point when we think about also one of the other factors, which is most obviously the support that you have around you. I'll come back to that, but I do want to mention, because I think this feels really relevant now, the immense significance of what's called intensive motherhood ideology. And you may have spoken about this actually with Edna, perhaps during your matressence episode.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  Potentially, but I haven't heard those.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think it feels really, really relevant to mention here. So it's really in simple language, it's like the perfect mother myth. And the academic term was kind of really first introduced by sociologist Sharon Hays in 1996. And I just wanted to read her definition, because I, I think it really encapsulates the immense pressure here. So she defines intensive motherhood as an ideology that is child centred, expert guided, emotionally absorbing, labour intensive, and financially expensive. It positions the mother, not the father, not the community, not society, as the primary

• 50:36Speaker 02

  and near total architect of her child's wellbeing, development and future. Everything else in her life is secondary to this.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  And the research has identified that there are three core demands of this ideology. The first demand is that the mother is the primary caregiver. And this is regardless of her work demands. Okay. Um, it's regardless of her time, the mother is always the default. The second demand is total devotion of your resources. So obviously devotion of your time, your money, your emotion, your physical being as well. Um, and that you are really the irreplaceable centre of your child's life. And the third demand, I think this one is so interesting and really relevant in modern world

• 51:30Speaker 02

  living, is that there is expert guided perfection. And what that means is that the demand is that the, the mother should be constantly consulting research and parenting guides about how to be a better parent. Um, and I think that, I mean, that's Instagram, right?

• 51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's everywhere.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, advice is everywhere.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Yes. And the, the onus is on the mother to be on top of all that research, um, to be constantly advancing her skills as a mother.

• 52:05Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  And what we know is that for women that, um, hold this belief strongly, even if we don't agree with it, it's like this internalised myth.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  So it doesn't have to be agreement. But for people that have internalised this myth, there is absolutely a major increase in parental burnout and parental guilt, those two experiences.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  That's just, that rings so true. Yeah. Just the consulting, the experts and being, feeling as though, um, yeah, I mean, I consider my, myself a feminist, but it was since day one, it's been like, well, I'm going to be leading this ship and I'm going to be picking up all the knowledge and I'm going to be making the decisions and because that's my, that's my role. And ultimately, you know, I am probably the one that knows best for my child. And, and then as the years go by, you start resenting your partner for knowing nothing.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Because from day one in the hospital, the, the nurses kind of looked at you to give you the advice and to show you how to do the nappies. Or maybe they'll do a token little lesson for the dad if he's there. But, um, yeah, we take it all on and then we get to a point where we're like, hang on, this is, uh, this is too much for me. Like I'm, I'm, I know you've talked about the mental load a lot, but you find yourself with the entire mental load and doing all the logistics and having 27 WhatsApps going on for your kids' schools. And, um, and then it's a matter of, okay, well, do I delegate? But then it's almost too much. It's, it's more work to delegate now because I know I've got all these years of experience leading, I know all of their friends' names.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  I know what their friends will want for their birthdays and, um, it's really hard to undo because of that cultural narrative that we are born into, that like this is our job.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  And I, I think also something that comes with that, that, uh, because it's just like in the ox, the air that we're breathing, like that myth or that narrative.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  Um, that I think it's like, it's a lot easier, even though, as I've said, like the pressures you feel as a dad, but I think it's, to use a really trivial, trivial example of like recently at a, um, birthday party, Sof, my wife had bought the present, it was my job to wrap it. And I didn't have any wrapping, I just like you, I was like, oh, we're out of, we've got some Christmas wrapping paper, that'll be funny, I'll just wrap it in that and there'll be a joke about it. But I think it's because that narrative doesn't exist for men, I think it's a lot easier to just go, I'll just drop the standards and it's fine.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  Whereas it's much harder for Sof to be able to swallow the pill of like, I'm turning up with the shitty, shitty wrap present.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  That's a really good example.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  I mean, it has to be shifting with all these conversations. I'm hoping that this generation of boys growing up will be like, well, we'll see guys like you who are now, who are so involved with their kids and really trying to even out the mental load. And then I'm hoping that that narrative will go down to your children, you know?

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, hopefully.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  It's a slow ship to turn, but you know, it feels like we're going in the right direction.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do, I agree. I think, and, and again, these conversations are part of that, you're kind of really actually uncovering what has been occurring. Um, and I think for women in particular, to being able to name that this is my experience is the first step then of, um, changing or changing the balance there.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know when my daughter gives birth, which I hope she does, I really want to be a grandchild, but I mean, a grandchild, I really want to be a grandparent, but I don't want to put that pressure on her, but I kind of do want to put that pressure on her. Uh, I know when she becomes a mum, I'm going to be like, okay, you tell your partner that they need to be there from day one, they need to be waking up to the feeding at night, even if you're feeding, they need to bring the child to it, you know what I mean? Like, I'm going to be telling her and whoever her partner is, you know, that you've got to make it equal from the get go, because otherwise you're going to get a few years down the track and you're going to resent your partner.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  And you don't want that. So we're, yeah, we're learning.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think we do have that voice then to be able to communicate to our children about, um, about gender roles, about, um, parenting roles, about your work, work identity as well. Um, and how, you know, really kind of steering those conversations to really tune into your own needs that are there as well.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  Um, but I mean, of course this, this has to do with mothers and I, but I don't want to deny that parental burnout obviously can happen for fathers as well. And we also know that it can happen most obviously in same-sex marriages or same-sex partnerships as well. Um, this is not specific only to one, one kind of, um, people. So parental perfectionism, yes, absolutely is a risk factor. Um, and it's, and it's really held in some ways by that perfect mother myth as well.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  So of course I really want to acknowledge that, you know, there is this message in here that we need to drop our standards, um, and to lower our expectations. But also really in the context of this ideology that we are being fed, we're kind of swimming in this soup here of, um, this being the expectation. I just really acknowledge that that is really difficult to navigate that, um, without, you know, feeling confused, without feeling pressured to, to work out, how do I want to be as a parent in this world with these messages being, um, constantly, um, portrayed to me?

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Hmm. Is it the expectation of people or, or are we all just pretending? Like, is everyone just pretending that they are a perfect parent because they think it's what the other person expects? And the other person's just pretending that they're a perfect parent?

• 58:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Like I, I never look at anybody at this point and go, oh my God, I can't believe you are feeding your kid that. Or, you know what I mean?

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  I'm just like, thank God, there's another person that's, you know, not doing it.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  To an Instagram worthy degree.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Those discussions.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  And like, I will say, I've spoken to a lot of clients about this and I know this is a really tricky thing, but if you're deep in burnout, take yourself off Instagram, like quite seriously.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  That's a very practical thing. It will be probably a coping mode or coping, um, mechanism that you use already to help you through that, but take yourself off it. There is an absolute correlation there with your mood, your functioning and this ability to drop those standards.

• 58:44Speaker 00

  I should probably mention also like for another situation that can arise for some parents who have separated, when there's custody of the kids and there's like divide, you literally divide the hours between the two of you. Penny and I have a friend who's, who was saying this the other day, who's gone through the separation and now feels this extra sort of grief and burden that she feels like she's kind of missing half the kids' lives. Um, which when she said that, I've really heartbreaking to hear that because I hadn't thought of it like that. My first thing was like, oh, that's like half the time to rest. But then when you actually put yourself in her shoes, it's like, no, as a mum, I feel like I'm missing half of their childhood.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Hmm. And it's hard because you don't have any control over how your kid is parented with the other person too. So you're kind of sitting at home going, I, yeah, they're very much out of my hands. I, I struggled with it a lot in the beginning. It's been a few years now, but I mean, I wrote a, if anyone wants to cry, if there's any single parents out there that are just wanting a, a good old cry, I wrote a song on my last album called A Complicated Truth. And it's the story of me telling my daughter, um, why her dad and I split up and, um, trying to kind of explain it to her in very simple six-year-old terms. Um, but I wrote it just one day when I was feeling so sad about the kids not being in the house. It just felt so quiet and so lonely.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  And, you know, you're already going through so much shame and guilt from the separation and then you're like, and I'm, I'm not there for my kids, you know?

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  So that's, yeah, that can definitely contribute to a lot of, um, a lot more struggles mentally when you're, when you're trying to find, um, ways to feel positive and energetic and get through that burnout feeling.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. You performed that, the last show I came to see you in, I think it was in Ballarat, and you, and you played that song, You Don't Have To Be A Single Parent To Cry To That. I, I've never seen so many people in one room crying at the same time. Do you remember that?

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh my God, the, the sobbing is audible. And because I think, which something that I didn't, um, expect was that, you know, a lot of, for example, mums and daughters, grown-up mums and daughters come to my show and the, the older woman may have separated from her daughters.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Father when they were young and she can relate to that feeling, you know, even if it happened thirty years ago.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  So many people came up to me and said, oh my God, my mum was absolutely sobbing. I just thought that it would relate, that people who were going through it could relate. But I didn't think, oh, in retrospect, people thinking about the impact of that divorce on their kids and they're feeling those emotions that they maybe didn't, you know.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  I mean, the other thing was that I think people, your fans love you, like, and I think them, they were picturing you writing that and just the heartbreak of that for you. I think that was, it was so much, but yeah, again, I've never seen so many people cry at once so loudly.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, God, I mean, it's therapeutic to cry.

• 1:01:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Well, I acknowledge that there's, there is so much complexity in that experience, um, in those experiences of separation and then managing shared custody, um, and parenting, um, as a co-parent. And I also wanted to really note in there that in some ways, even the prospect of separation is kind of violating that, that, um, ideal parent.

• 1:02:01Speaker 03

  Myth.

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yep. And so that, of course, that violation is going to bring with it a whole host of really complicated feelings.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. In my experience, it got easier. I don't know if, if that's a universal experience or not, but it definitely did as the years went by and you realise that your kid is fine with the other parent, like they're okay, even if that other parent isn't doing things the way that you would do it. It's like, actually, my kid's fine.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  You just have to let go of some of that control and, and some of that perfectionism, I guess, which is really, really hard to do.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:02:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Emotional competence is another risk factor and that really has to do with already your, um, your ability to regulate your emotions. So, um, if you, before having children, have had a relatively, um, I guess, adaptive or healthy approach to managing difficult emotions, that is a really big buffer then to you, um, not experiencing parental burnout. But if emotion regulation is difficult or that there are less, um, emotion regulation skills there, that of course is going to make this harder as a parent.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I imagine your emotional literacy in general being a part of that.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  Cause I think about times and I have been struggling, my ability to convey that to Sophie without blame on her, just like.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  Being able to really describe what's going is just, that's the key for me.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  To get that communication happening so we can get through it.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, being able to start a conversation with, I feel whatever you're feeling as opposed to, um, this happened. Cause I think so often when it's stressful in a relationship, when someone says, um, the kids did this and the kids did that, you feel like, oh, so you're saying it's my fault because I wasn't there for that. But if you can just start with, I feel, you straight away.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  Put yourself in their shoes and get that it's not about you at all. It's purely about their experience.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Yes. And so emotional competency, one of the, the biggest pieces of it is exactly that is what's called affect labelling. So being able to label your emotion.

• 1:04:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  And that is a skill. Um, and, you know, I always point to like looking at an emotions wheel, go and Google it and being able to understand this is emotional literacy, being able to be really granular about the, the experience that's here is such a healthy way of approaching and processing emotion.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  The more specific we can be, the more targeted our response is too. So an example that I would often give is that if I just feel, um, off as opposed to feeling lonely, I have a, a direct pathway to manage that emotion if I can specify it as loneliness as opposed to feeling off.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. I feel like one for men is like, I feel shit.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah.

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. What does that mean?

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  As opposed to, I feel lonely or I feel hurt or I feel, and then you can work out, it's, it's much easier to work out what the problem is when you can say what the emotion is.

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:04:55Speaker 03

  Much quicker access to what's actually going on.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  I find that even sometimes lately I've been, um, admitting to my kids when I'm in a state and that's actually been really helpful. Like in the moment, I'm going, I'm feeling like I'm getting more angry.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  And I'm like, I really don't want to feel angry right now, but I'm feeling it. Like somehow just vocalising that. And it also, it kind of, kind of makes it a bit funny because it's ridiculous that I'm like getting angry over nothing and, um, and then my kids will be like, come on mum, calm down, you know? And then it almost ended to something humorous.

• 1:05:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Um, or I'll just, like, I'll just say, look, I'm, I've said to my son a couple of times recently, look, a thing happens with women at certain times of month where we feel extra cranky and it just so happens that I'm at that time of the month, okay? And I'm sorry, but I'm feeling less patient than usual. And it's, um, yeah, it, it actually really helps saying it out loud. And I think it helps the kids too, because they see me in that state and they go, yeah, mum's feeling cranky.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  And it's not necessarily about me.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  Yes, it's also normalising human emotion.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  So it's telling them it's okay if they have feelings of anger.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  Um, it's been modelled to them. Um, and you're not moving into accusatory or blaming language. You're not saying, you're making me so angry.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  It's that I'm feeling so angry. So yes, name what you're feeling in the moment.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  Just a, a quick one. We, um, for teaching emotional literacy, we at home at the moment, we're really big on this with our kids and I've got, our daughter's got a, um, an emotions chart on her door. So she can go and with just like Velcro, go and grab emojis and she'll tell us how she's feeling by putting, so she's sort of like practising every night. She'll, and there's one extra bed as well, because she likes, she, she can, she says sometimes I have two different emotions and so she'll give us two different and she'll, and she'll practise those and it's great. Like it's so nice to go to her room and see and she's very proud of it. Like she's very proud to, and sometimes she'll say stuff like, um, that you should just, like, you should go to my room, you should just walk through my door. Cause she wants to show me this, she's putting a new emotion up there. And often like there was a negative one, she'll be saying like.

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:05Speaker 03

  I think you should go to my room. I go, what? Oh, yeah. Okay. I'll go and see what's in your room. And then, yeah, and then she'll have a story to go with it. But it's like a, it's a good way to get, um, I know, I am stereotyping here, but I think boys should be doing this as well. I think boys need to practise this from a young age because it, it doesn't come as naturally, a stereotype, it doesn't.

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  Yes. I could say a lot about that.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  That's another episode.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  It's like a mini-series.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  I also want to mention that the quality of the team is most obviously going to make a really big difference to your experience of burnout. So, um, we know that a big buffer for burnout is if you have a, a co-parent that's not burnt out. If you're both burnt out, then that's really difficult.

• 1:07:48Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And that's not necessarily uncommon. Yeah.

• 1:07:52Speaker 00

  And the team can be more than, are you talking about specifically the, the nucleus sort of team or like it can the team be whatever you've made it?

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, the team can be whatever you've made it. So obviously in terms of like single parenting, um, then the team could include your community, your neighbours, um, your extended family. So what is the quality of the team there? How responsive are they? Um, how, and this is very common is again, we've kind of mentioned this about not delegating. So I do it all myself, um, and that there is no sense of being on any team. It's actually, I'm just doing this on my own.

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  So that is a big risk factor in there too.

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:32Speaker 03

  And both parents are lying on the floor crying, it's very hard to, to parent.

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:36Speaker 03

  It's very hard to get things done.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is. If we think about burnout as something that never arrives overnight, burnout, whether it's in a parenting role or in a job role, is a slow and gradual movement into collapse. And so when you get there, it's also a slow and gradual movement out of it.

• 1:08:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  And so if you find both parents, uh, in this state, I mean, obviously that's a big call that we need to change something.

• 1:09:06Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:09:07Speaker 02

  And quickly, but the change won't be quick. The change will take, take some time. Yep.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  I imagine a lot of, um, trying to get out of burnout comes from admitting to anyone you can around you that it's happening and that you need help.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Because, because of that shame of thinking like, well, if I admit it, then I'm.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  A horrible person and a bad parent.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  And I'm not a perfect mother.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I think in reality, so many people can relate and in my experience, your community want to help more than you realise. So people will be like, yeah, I'll take your kid, you know?

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  We'll go out and do something for the weekend or.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  The hardest thing I think is to ask for that help.

• 1:09:52Speaker 02

  It absolutely is. And that is, you know, such an important message in there around the fact that we always misjudge the positive effect that someone experiences when they help.

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  That it feels good to help people.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um. And I think it's good for your kids to be with lots of different people too.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Like you think, oh, you know, I don't, I don't wanna delegate and I don't wanna give my parent, my kid out to other people. But I think broadening the community of your kid is probably a great thing for their development.

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely, it is. It's exposure to other meaningful people in your life, other positive role models, um, other practices, other experiences. I think that's, you know, of course, really helpful.

• 1:10:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I feel like I need to give a shout out to our new friends down the road, John Cameo, who, uh, my youngest boy has just become like really close with their daughter.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:10:46Speaker 00

  And like a few weeks ago, I was like, they saw me out the front and I was kinda like a bit frazzled, sofas away, I was doing, and just not, not burnt out or anything, but just, you know, in it. And they were like driving past and they like wound down the window and they just say, said, g'day. And they're like, do you wanna just drop Orgy off for a couple of hours? Or you just drop him off and we'll take him? So you can get all that stuff done that you're doing?

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  And, uh, and I was like, he's sure? And they're like, yeah, yeah, it's easy. Just drop him around. They'll have a great time. And then just being that like support. And then I've done that to them.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  And we've now got this relationship going where

• 1:11:18Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:11:19Speaker 00

  it's, and it feels so good for the kids, but it's just, I feel like someone in my street has got my back now, which I didn't have.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they would love the fact that they're helping you out too.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  And yet we stop ourselves from asking for them.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. For fear of being a burden.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  Or for fear that it will expose me as not coping in some way or another.

• 1:11:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, fear of being a burden's a big one, I think.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:40Speaker 03

  Like, I can't ask them to do this.

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  So there are a couple of other risk factors, um, and there will be obviously more nuance in that. But I do wanna mention probably a really important one, that in the research, um, leisure time is a really significant one. And it's very specific to Western culture. This factor is not really showing up in non-Western cultures, which is, you know, interesting and probably speaks to a whole host of things. Um, but part of it might be this kind of, um, individualistic versus collective, um, culture. Um, but for Western cultures, a lack of leisure time is increasingly common. And it comes hand in hand with that, the perfect parent ideology also is that I don't have and should not have any sense of self or any time to

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  myself outside of being this parent.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  So the less leisure time you have, where you are not doing something, um, that has some sort of, um, outcome, so not trying to achieve something, um, it's purely for playful relaxation. If we don't have any access to that, then of course, our system over time is not gonna cope with that.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  I imagine it would be a lot harder for someone to ask someone else to take their kid.

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  For them to just, you know, go for a walk or go to a movie or go, you know what I mean? Like, if you're gonna ask for help, I, I feel like a lot of people would justify it of like, well, it's because I've got work to do, you know, I've got something important.

• 1:13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  And so that's how you justify it. But I would feel really guilty being like, can you take my kid so I can just lie on the couch for three hours?

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  But that's probably really what you need to do if you're in burnout. Yeah.

• 1:13:24Speaker 03

  I don't think I could actually do that. Like, I don't think I could have, even if like Penny was taking the kids somewhere and I had a day, I would fill it with things.

• 1:13:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Speaker 03

  Like work things or training. I would, I would not, I wouldn't have an hour where I'm just not doing anything. I wouldn't be, I wouldn't know, it'd be too uncomfortable. But that, I think that is what I probably needed last year.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You just need to veg out. I've just, like in the last, um, few months, I've just started letting myself lie on the couch and watch TV.

• 1:13:54Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  During the day.

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  Awesome.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:57Speaker 03

  What is that? It feels like the dream.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, I don't know why, but I've only just started giving myself permission for that, because it's so, you know, deeply embedded in our culture of like, yeah, we, we don't have

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  this lazy leisure time for ourselves.

• 1:14:12Speaker 03

  Do you feel an urge to, when you're there, you're like, ah, this is not right, I gotta do something? Or are you getting good at it?

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Previously, I would have, but now I'm just like, I, I think because I've been so extremely exhausted

• 1:14:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  the last few years, since becoming a single mum, probably. I just, I'm just like, when I get a tiny bit of time to myself, I, I just, I'm

• 1:14:31Speaker 03

  I've had this.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  I am more in tune with my body now. And I'm just like, I need to rest, otherwise I'm gonna get sick.

• 1:14:37Speaker 03

  What are you watching?

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  I'm watching a rerun of Girls at the moment, and it's so good. You know Girls, HBO?

• 1:14:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Um, it's just, yeah, nothing too, too harrowing.

• 1:14:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Um, I think of it as like a nervous system thing, like your nervous system is in such a state when you're parenting. Well, mine is anyway. It's just like always on alert and

• 1:14:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  um, hypervigilant. And then when you're working, you're probably in, your nervous system is in a pretty stressed state too. It's like, if you don't have those rest periods of just like really relaxing it as much as possible, then it's, you're gonna, you're gonna pay for it somewhere down the line. And you're probably gonna pay for it when you're with your kids and you have no tolerance, because you haven't given yourself

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  two hours on the couch.

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this is actually the paradox, right? Is that we need the rest in order to be the good enough parent.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Um, and so that's sometimes like the inroad there is, um, the more you deny yourself the restoration, the more you also deny your kids of a healthy, happy home.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  I guess it's about actually seeing that rest as valuable. Like, that holds value in itself.

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  That's what I've started seeing it as. I'm like, this is work. Like, to be on the couch watching Girls

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  is actually productive.

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Because it's making me a more chilled parent in the afternoon. And that's my number one thing, you know, as you guys have said, is being a good parent. And so, um, it's not actually self-indulgent at all.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  Mm-mm.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  It's like, if you look at it, you know, as a holistic thing, it's really, it's really helping everyone.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  Like, elite sport at the moment is just like, so much is about recovery. So you train really hard. And then

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:16:14Speaker 03

  there's a bigger focus now on like, what are you doing to recover? So the next time you have to train hard or compete, you're at your best. And I think that's like a very useful analogy.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a recovery session. It's a hardcore recovery session.

• 1:16:25Speaker 02

  It is. I think that's a great analogy.

• 1:16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. I also love, you brought up nervous system or central nervous system, because with, at the end of last year, I'm speaking to my psychiatrist and psychologist and, and even like running coach, everyone was just like, we need, next year, the focus is getting your central nervous system like back to where it needs to be. And so that's how I've recovered from a burnout. It was like, everything has to be about my central nervous system. And what I've learned through that is like, doing less is the best way to, and so, but gradually, like you arrive at burnout gradually and doing things throughout the year, when I'm, good a decision, do I do this? Do I do that? How do I deal with this? It's just what's best for your central nervous system.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:02Speaker 03

  And for me, that has, that has been like, stop doing 20 minutes of breath work and then like a cold shower and then cycling for 20 minutes every morning. Just sleep.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  Which is ironic, because you were probably told that's good for your central nervous system, right?

• 1:17:17Speaker 03

  Exactly, yeah. But it's like, because I measure everything now, like, it's not, it is absolutely not just sleeping and just like getting up and the kids get up and

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  And actually just listen to your body as opposed to read about it and, yeah, tick off the numbers.

• 1:17:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, do what a ripped guy says on Instagram.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 03

  Who's got no kids and lives in Bali.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  Just to, to, to focus on what Missy said then, I'm wondering if, like, listening, when you say listen to your body, you're saying like, don't look at the numbers as well, aren't you?

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't be like, oh, so and so reckons that I should have a cold bath and do this and that. Like, does your body actually respond well to that? And do you feel better and relaxed after doing that at five o'clock every morning? Or are you more exhausted?

• 1:17:55Speaker 00

  I think that's really hard to do. Like, I think it's like, takes, I'm not sure I'm there, but I need to get better at it. It's like a hard thing. And I feel like I can look at, like, wearing a whip band for a while, felt like almost got me further away from that.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:18:09Speaker 00

  Than closer, ironically.

• 1:18:11Speaker 03

  I've had the opposite of that, because I use, I use HRV to measure my central nervous system. And so, but that's got me closer, because I go, if I get up at that time and do all those things, my HRV that night is like really low. But if I just rest and just

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Speaker 00

  Oh, that's, yeah.

• 1:18:26Speaker 03

  It's like much, so, yeah.

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Speaker 03

  That's better. That's it.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  I think what also really bears mentioning is that for a lot of people, the resting will actually feel agitating, and the resting will feel

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  from a nervous system unsafe. And there may be a number of reasons for that. That may be in part also, um, you know, origins in childhood. So where and how did you see parents resting? Um, if you rested as a kid, were you told off? Were you told, stop being lazy? You need to be going and doing this. So how was rest, um, experienced in your childhood? How was rest spoken about as a priority, um, in your family? Um, because sometimes, and even from a trauma response, resting may genuinely have been unsafe. Like, stopping may have been unsafe. And so when we think about now as an adult, as a parent,

• 1:19:21Speaker 02

  that actually stopping and resting is still eliciting this non-safety response. And so we have to be really gradual in exposing ourselves to that slowing down, to, to gradually kind of really build up the body's awareness that resting is safe.

• 1:19:37Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  And that I can stay in this place here and it doesn't have to feel laden down with guilt, obviously, but also laden down with, um, with, with fear in some ways.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  So if that has been your experience in your history, then we need to be really gentle with ourselves in, in starting to bring this in as a practice.

• 1:19:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  So when we think about, okay, well, how are we gonna, how are we gonna deal with this? I think ultimately, if you think about parental burnout as an imbalance between the demands of your situation and the resources you have, most obviously, we have to rebalance the balance. And I guess very concrete way of looking at this is that, you know, there's invitation here to write down everything that's draining you. So write it all down. And then also write down what your resources are. Can it be that I need to build up some of my emotional competence, for example? Do I also wanna have a look at how I can bring on board more support? Can I look at how I manage the perfectionistic tendency that I have in here?

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  So we really wanna be in some ways, concrete about what's draining me, what's also nourishing me.

• 1:20:48Speaker 03

  I feel when you write down a resources list, my mind went to,

• 1:20:52Speaker 03

  how much time do I have where I'm not parenting? Like, can I bring in?

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:56Speaker 03

  A grandparent for these three hours?

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:20:59Speaker 03

  But I typically find really draining. Like, who are the people?

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  Yes, you can absolutely do that.

• 1:21:02Speaker 03

  The people's names that I could call on to just relieve the pressure a bit.

• 1:21:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  I went to like, really basic things like food, sleep, water. Like, am I getting enough of the things, like the core sort of fuel for my body as well?

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, I mean, they're all part of it.

• 1:21:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  So what are my resources?

• 1:21:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Would it also be helpful to write down the places where you can drop a bit of your perfectionism?

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  Yes. Definitely.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  Definitely. And this is a very kind of maybe school-aged parenting experience. But even things like, do your kids need to do 10 co-curricular activities?

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  Would it be okay to drop a few?

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  Even if that is disappointing to your child?

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  Or you, yeah.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  Or you, or you, yeah.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Can they take the bus to school instead of me having to drive them?

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  We're looking at high schools at the moment, and I'm like, there's a really good school 40 minutes drive away. Or there's a good enough school 10 minutes away.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  And I'm thinking, like, the stress that that will put on me as a single mum, trying to figure out how the hell to get one kid 40 minutes away and one, like,

• 1:22:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  I feel like that will have knock-on detrimental effects.

• 1:22:21Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  Little things like that where you're just like,

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  you know what, I have to look at the bigger picture.

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  Yes. So when you zoom out and you really kind of take this bird's eye view of all the demands that are here, which are the ones that you have control over? And so things like that, yes, you have a choice. Things like your curricular, extracurricular activities, you have a choice in there. Looking at where of those demands do I have a choice and control over?

• 1:22:47Speaker 00

  Hmm. That's a hard thing to do when you're burnt out, I reckon.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  It is. And, and this is also why I'd really invite you to enlist someone to do it with you.

• 1:22:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  Whether that's with your partner, doing it together, particularly if you're both in it, or whether that's, you know, bringing in an extra, you know, a friend, a neighbour, a parent to help you with that, to see things in a way that they might see your experience.

• 1:23:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if you think about the way, again, the way we got into burnout was this, like, almost like, I get this image of like a dripping tap, drip, drip, drip. There's just these small things that are accumulating over time. And so if we start to take away even the small things like, I'm gonna make the same, this is what I do for my kids, and they don't like it, but bad luck. They get the same lunchbox, the same food every single day.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  I don't have to then think about being creative or, you know, that's just a thing for me. Other people may like doing lunchboxes. But like, that one small thing definitely takes away some sort of like mental load around decision-making, for example.

• 1:23:47Speaker 00

  I think of the Chrissie Swan episode we did where she was like, stuff it, I'm sick of, I'm just, I'm paying like, cause she has, I guess, I know, not everyone can do this, but she's like, I'm paying 500 bucks and you're getting lunch orders every day.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Speaker 00

  I'm not doing it anymore.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:00Speaker 00

  I'm filling in the form once and you get the same thing. I think paraphrasing, but she's like, I can't take this on anymore.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's really subverting that perfectionistic, perfect parent ideology.

• 1:24:13Speaker 03

  Like letting, you need to let go of stuff.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  I feel like parenting is just one slow process of dropping your standards. From day one.

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Letting go of your high ideals. So I thought I was gonna be such a different parent to what I ended up being.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Oh, like, all the conversations you have before having children, like, they will never have screen time.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And then slowly it's like, oh, okay, maybe a little bit, okay, just like, whatever, just leave me alone.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think that is, this is this learning here that comes obviously from the pain and suffering of, of, you know, really sitting in that burnout place, is that one of the biggest messages in here is how do I realistically drop my standards? Knowing that that actually is allowing me to be a better parent?

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And self-compassion too, like,

• 1:25:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  that's at the root of all this. It's like, it's, it's okay, like, you're doing a great job. Like, if you're burnt out, it probably means you've been trying so hard to be a great parent.

• 1:25:12Speaker 03

  It shows you care.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  You care so much. And which means that you're probably a way better parent than you actually need to be. Like, it's okay just to drop your standards a bit and you, you need looking after and it's probably because you're a really

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  beautiful person.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. That you care so much. I think it would be remiss of me not to mention Donald Winnicott, who has been really kind of advocate, well, who advocated this in 1953. This message was still here and it came from a man, which I think is, is important.

• 1:25:44Speaker 03

  1953.

• 1:25:45Speaker 02

  In 1953. And he termed the notion of the good enough mother. And what he talked about there was this idea of, of really importantly, dropping the expectations and the high standards and pressure that we hold on ourselves. And that in fact, a perfect mother, or in this case, a perfect parent, is actually detrimental to the child. And the reason that he gives, I think, is so significant. And that is that if you parent perfectly, your child will never experience disappointment, your child will never be exposed to anger or irritation, your child will never be let

• 1:26:27Speaker 02

  down, your child will never be exposed to negative emotion. They'll never be bored, they'll never experience the friction of what it means to be human. And so, in fact, being an imperfect parent and good enough for a lot of the time, some of the time, is actually beneficial for the child.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:26:54Speaker 02

  And I think that that's something that we really need to hold this kind of awareness of, that the standards that we are, are holding ourselves to is actually hurting us and our children.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  I think as long as the kid feels deeply loved. If you grow up feeling deeply loved, then it doesn't matter what your parents

• 1:27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  really do. Like, you know, obviously, nothing traumatic or horrible, but I feel like a lot of the people I know who grew up with imperfect parents are really amazing because they've come through adversity and they've, they've figured out things.

• 1:27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Because they needed to. Because they didn't have perfect parents.

• 1:27:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  And yeah, it'd be, it'll be interesting to see what this next generation of kids grows up.

• 1:27:37Speaker 03

  It's a lovely, it's a lovely question to, just to, for people listening to think about now, like, do my, do my kids feel loved? And tipping if you're someone who's raised burnt out, the answer is yes. And that's kind of what matters. That's your job.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause that, that kind of security, that in, that inner security of feeling deeply loved, I think, is like a solid ground that you grow up with, you know, like, that's a really, you can fall back onto that, I think, even as an adult. It's like, I grew up feeling loved, feeling deeply loved. And everything else is just, you know, par for the course. It's not the things you hold on to. It's the feeling that you, you felt secure as a kid.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  You know, it's interesting, I saw, gosh, I'm on Instagram, reading out, I'll have to get the source for this, but reading out the, the idea that at some point in time, your kids will be talking to people that you don't know about the home that they grew up in.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  I think about that all the time. Yeah.

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  And, you know, if you think about it in that lens, it is exactly that sentiment that you would just almost entirely hope for that child, that home to be described as warm and loving.

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  Like that, like, all the rest is just peripheral.

• 1:28:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:00Speaker 02

  That you would really deeply hope for your child to say, in 20 years' time,

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  had a really loving home.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:29:09Speaker 02

  That's in.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  And maybe not all the time? Cause I'm just thinking, my home doesn't feel warm and loving all the time. But, you know, enough.

• 1:29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  You know, there's lots of, there's lots of shouting, there's lots of kids fighting.

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, there's plenty of the other stuff.

• 1:29:25Speaker 02

  And loving doesn't mean not having unpleasant emotion.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  Loving just means that you know that I'm unconditionally loved.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:29:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:35Speaker 03

  This feels like such a special

• 1:29:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:36Speaker 03

  episode. Thank you to both of you. And Josh, obviously, as well, but for the two of you.

• 1:29:42Speaker 03

  Like, I think this is just such a big thing for us to talk about. And Missy, it just, to have a mum here talking about it is just, it's so important.

• 1:29:53Speaker 00

  Essential.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  That's great. It's so helpful for me too. Thank you.

• 1:29:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I always know it's gonna be an episode when I, as we're talking, like, I wanna send this episode to this person. I have that many people on my head that need to hear this episode.

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  I was thinking the same thing too. I was like, I hope this woman listens to this.

• 1:30:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, so thanks and, and thank you, Missy.

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:30:17Speaker 00

  Well, you, you and I are back here alone.

• 1:30:20Speaker 03

  Yes. At last.

• 1:30:23Speaker 00

  It was an amazing episode on parental burnout. Missy was incredible.

• 1:30:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:27Speaker 00

  I mean, everyone was good, but Missy was phenomenal.

• 1:30:29Speaker 03

  She was the best.

• 1:30:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. She won.

• 1:30:31Speaker 03

  She won the episode.

• 1:30:33Speaker 00

  You're back here because in this week's episode of A Little More Imperfects, which is our subscriber community show, there is an incredible letter by a friend of yours.

• 1:30:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we were so lucky to receive a letter from Christian, who I've known since we were 16 years of age, so a very, very long time ago. This is a letter that, I mean, it's heartbreaking to read, but I think it's gonna be important for so many people. Essentially, Christian is solo parenting for a variety of reasons that will come through in the letter, but, um, gosh, it's gonna help a lot of people feel less alone.

• 1:31:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think we should listen to a little bit of it now.

• 1:31:07Speaker 03

  To my beautiful boy, I'm so sorry it took me so long to get out of bed this morning, every morning. I'm so sorry you see me take handfuls of painkillers throughout the day when that hand should be holding yours outside these walls. Your peachy palm, a gentle jigsaw in mine, I'm so sorry, this is normal for you. I'm sorry you can't possibly, nor would I want you to, understand what a lifetime of medical gaslighting and over 30 surgeries does to a person. I'm so sorry I'm not like other mums when you need me to be. I'm so sorry that all I have left is endless love for you, yet my heart screams, knows it's too often, not enough.

• 1:31:42Speaker 00

  It's such a moving letter and the feeling of burnout throughout the letter is heartbreaking as well as the story that she's, she's gone through. It's really, it's such an important listen. If people wanna hear more from that and everything else that we do on A Little More Imperfects, you can subscribe at patreon.com/theimperfects. This show was made in the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.