Ellyse Perry - It Starts With Trying

At just 16, Ellyse Perry was the youngest person to ever debut for the Australian International Cricket team. 13 days later, Ellyse debuted for the Matildas. 💌Join 7,800+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy Arguably one of the greatest athletes of our time, Hugh, Ryan and Josh chat to Ellyse about how she stays so grounded amidst her incredible success, and whether she is able to separate who she is from what she does. Ellyse chats to the guys about her relationship with her dad (Josh and Hugh furiously take notes), and how both her parents were able to instil a love of trying rather than winning. And then we get onto social anxiety; what it feels like for Ellyse, why she loves silent retreats, and how she manages it in front of her fans. Ellyse, you are a literal ray of sunshine. Please come back anytime. If you’d like to watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link - https://youtu.be/xAZeLzcG43Y 0:00 – Is THAT AI? 5:05 – Running (and bowling) it’s natural course 11:24 – The feeling of not trying 17:18 – Parents: Be A Good Sport 29:22 – Prepare to be disappointed 40:23 – Bitter sweet World Cup 46:48 – The complexity of ego 1:03:54 – Practicing presence 1:10:30 – Hugh’s advice for big moments 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned on this episode Pat Cummins - Love, Loss & Life - (1:14:20) - https://bit.ly/3PRku11 WHO ARE YOU? with Dr Emily (+ secret code word) - (17:20) - https://bit.ly/4e1SxeV 📖 Things to read Perspective by Ellyse Perry - (29:22) - https://bit.ly/3PSMaCI Ellyse Perry’s children’s books - https://bit.ly/4e1TyDM Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman - (1:11:40) - https://bit.ly/437yxT9 📺Things to watch Carl Sagan’s Pale Blue Dot - (1:17:27) - https://bit.ly/3PSPKNa 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here - http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I just stood there for a second and I lifted my head and did a full 360 around the stadium and the G's like the cauldron kind of thing and I was just like, oh my god.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  For so many Australians, Elise Perry has represented excellence for such a long time. The youngest player ever to debut for the Australian cricket team and the only person ever to have played for Australia in both football and cricket world cups. It is an easy assumption to make that Elise is the best athlete in Australia.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  And my mum kind of looking at me and being like, are you okay? And I was like, I don't want to do it. And she said to me, like, I really think that if you don't go and try and you don't put yourself on that start line, you'll remember the feeling of that for a long time. It's about going up there and feeling what's possible and what it's like to be a human and have these like, I guess, insecurities or frailties, but still go and do it anyway.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  I mean this in the best way, but you don't carry yourself as someone who is like the best.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  I don't stand there going, I'm a gnarly cricket player.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that definitely comes across.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  I mean, who uses the word gnarly, you know, and cricket in the same sentence?

• 1:12Speaker 02

  That's a great line. G'day, Elise Perry, gnarly cricket player.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  Oh, cricket. Right?

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  I could go on all day about it.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  It does go on all day.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  It does go on all day.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  I like batting or bowling more.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  This is not the question I had planned to open with, but it's just, I've always wondered, what do you like more?

• 1:41Speaker 00

  It's actually the question I ask every kid at like a...

• 1:43Speaker 02

  At a training thing?

• 1:45Speaker 00

  A clinic.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Over the wicket or around the wicket?

• 1:48Speaker 00

  Right, left handed, spin, pace.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  But don't avoid the question, do you like batting or bowling more?

• 1:54Speaker 00

  I actually, I like both. But I think mainly because it sort of keeps you in the game the whole time, as we might have just mentioned, it goes for a long time. So it's nice to do both.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Would you rather make a hundred or take a five?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  I'm really trying to get an answer here.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Oh, I feel like maybe take a five, five.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Interesting. Let's think about this for a bit. Let's spend at least five minutes thinking about this and not cut it down.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Okay, can we please pump up Elise Perry and explain to everyone who doesn't realise how incredible this woman is?

• 2:35Speaker 01

  So, like, we'll just do a touch on Elise while I read this because she's going to be incredibly awkward. It'll be great viewing. So, here is your bio that we've written. So, just so people don't think you've written this, which I don't know why you would have.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  What were the final touches to it last night?

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Elise Perry was 16 years old when she made her debut for the Australian cricket team. 13 days later, Elise made her debut for the Matildas, scoring a goal in the first two minutes of their 8-1 victory against Hong Kong.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  That is crazy.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  I know.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  We should probably, like, we could do a whole episode on that because that is ridiculous.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  16? That's insane.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like Matildas and, yeah, anyway.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got cast in a Pepsi ad.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  So, we've all done stuff.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Actually, I can't think of it. I was debating captain, so.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Were you?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:34Speaker 03

  Not much at 16.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  You're a loser.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Growing up on Sydney's northern beaches, Elise spent most of her childhood outside playing sport with her brother, dad and mum. Where individual pursuits such as swimming, athletics and tennis made her incredibly nervous, Elise gravitated towards team sports with a particular interest in football and cricket. The youngest player ever to debut for the Australian cricket team and the only person ever to have played for Australia in both football and cricket World Cups. It is an easy assumption to make that Elise is the best athlete in Australia. Elise has been named, how's this? So, Elise has been named the ICC Women's Cricketer of the Year in 2017 and 2019. Won the ICC Player of the Decade in 2020 and has won the Belinda Clark Award as Australia's Women's International Cricket of the Year three times.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Elise is the first player in world cricket history to achieve 1,000 runs and take 100 wickets in T20 international cricket. In 2016, Elise released a series of four young adult books and in 2019 released a non-fiction book called Perspective. For so many Australians, Elise Perry has represented excellence for such a long time. But I think what moves people most deeply about her isn't her greatness, it's her gentleness. The way she carries success without ever losing her warmth, humility or humanity. We are so happy to have you here.

• 4:55Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me, guys.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  I mean, that's such a, that's such a good, good point because like, because I'm not a big follower of cricket. So I don't like these guys. I didn't quite understand the enormity of your achievements. But meeting you today, that's so true, what he said in the sense that like you, and I mean, I mean this in the best way, but you don't carry yourself as someone who is like the best. Yeah.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  How does one respond to that?

• 5:27Speaker 02

  But I mean, well, I guess, I guess.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Nice to meet you too.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Well, no, no, no, no, you say something nice about me.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  And then you, yeah, just work at each, go through each.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  But it is, it is so, how does it sit?

• 5:40Speaker 00

  I think, I think that's the point. Like objectively, maybe I've been successful in one very small pursuit in life that like in the broadest scheme means absolutely nothing. Like, and I don't mean that in a flippant way. Like I've devoted huge amounts of time and energy and passion and all those things to, to playing a sport that I really enjoy doing. But like when I'm not doing that sport, like I'm just walking around in the world trying to figure it out like, like everyone else. And I don't think you can approach life with just one persona, because you're good at one thing. And then get, get the full experience and the depth and the, I guess, the completeness of what it is to be alive and share, share the world with everyone else.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Do you ever think about if you had chosen football, like if you'd chosen football, where your life would be, how it'd be different?

• 6:33Speaker 00

  Um. No, I don't actually. I think because I've that whole experience and part of my life, it felt like it ran a really, really natural course for like lots of reasons, not just, I guess, within me, but like the context of the environment at the time. Like when I started playing both sports, I were really semi-professional for women. I don't, I don't think anyone was really earning a living from playing football or cricket. Um, Karen Rollton, who was the captain of the Australian team when I first came in, she went for Australia Post, like still does actually, I think. But yeah, she was full-time at Australia Post and took time off work to go and play a little captain in her country. That was the kind of context.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  And um, and then I guess the way things have panned out since then, both sports started like progressing and particularly cricket in Australia went full-time, probably a little bit before football. And it just felt like a natural kind of evolution of not just like, I guess, my career, but but for everyone. So I never really consciously had to make a choice. It felt like it just unfolded in this like really natural, amazing way. And I was so lucky to be a part of it.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Hmm. I mean, I think it's pretty obvious through the bio, like how big you are in cricket. I said in the, in the intro, like your humility, humanity, your warmth are like just so evident and so present. How do you, um, why is that the case? Why are you like that when I think when you see someone who's achieved so much? And like, what is it about you or your upbringing that has kept you so grounded when the opposite could be so possible?

• 8:08Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, uh, I don't know. I mean, sometimes I don't feel grounded. I think like there's definitely an element of being a human being, um, of just competing in sport as well, where like I feel like I get way too competitive or like my ego takes over and like, but perhaps maybe, and I'm so incredibly grateful to my parents and all the opportunities that they've given my brother and I, like growing up and and the support and all those things. Like I honestly, I can't, I can't believe it, like that they're my parents in a lot of ways. But I guess there's always been this, this part of it where it is like a perspective of like

• 8:49Speaker 00

  what sport actually means in the grand scheme of things. Um, I remember mum telling me, and it really stuck with me. Like I was probably like seven or eight and I was in the back of her Kia.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  Mentor.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  I don't even know if they make them anymore, but um little hatchback thing. And she was driving me to an athletics carnival and I was packing it like it was a pretty big deal. Like we got to compete at Home Bush, like a school athletics carnival, Birkham Primary School. And, you know, so it was like, it was off campus. We were on the way to this athletics carnival and I was so nervous. Like I just, I felt so sick and I didn't like, I just wanted like, honestly, if someone had have said, we can turn the car around right now and go home. I would have been like, yes, please. And I, I remember mum kind of looking at me and being like, are you okay? And I was like, I don't wanna do it. And she said to me like, well, why don't you wanna do it?

• 9:42Speaker 00

  And I'm like, oh, I don't wanna, like, I don't wanna be bad, like, I'm kind of scared of um being beaten, I guess. And um she was like to me, you know, like to- tomorrow, everyone who's at that athletics carnival today, which probably would have been like five people and a dog, but everyone at that athletics carnival is gonna wake up tomorrow and they're not going to think once about what happened the day before and certainly not gonna like be like, oh, I wonder how Elise went, like, where did she come in that race, like, it's just not life. Um, and she's like, but I, I really think that if you don't go and try and you don't put yourself on that start line, you'll remember the feeling of that for a long time.

• 10:26Speaker 00

  And I think that's kind of framed things for me a lot, like ever since then, like the fact that I remember that conversation because it just feels like, yeah, the point of it is not to go up and win or um, I don't know, like beat your chest or fulfill some kind of outcome based scenario. It's, it's about going up there and, and feeling what's possible and what it's like to be a human and have these like, I guess insecurities or frailties, but still go and do it anyway. Um, and then what comes of that is entirely internal, like in terms of like a sense of fulfillment. Um, it's something that builds you as a person, but it doesn't make you any better than anyone else. It just helps you never get the world better, I guess.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  And, and you're like, even when you're playing like in a world cup, are you still, are you still going to a world cup with like that mentality?

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I hope so. I mean, and that's not to say that like, I don't like have moments where I'm unbelievably nervous or scared of failing or just wanna win so bad because I'm bloody hate England like.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Or something like that, but.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Especially in the winter. Freezing.

• 11:40Speaker 03

  He gets cricket.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  Oh dear. Um, yeah. And but I think is that like, like, accepting that you're gonna have those those thoughts and that's fine. I mean, that's like to say that you don't probably be completely dishonest, but um, I always bring it back to like, and so what? Like, if we lose this World Cup, so what?

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Really?

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, I mean, I really wanna win it and it's gonna hurt if we don't. Um.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  But you can kind of get over it relatively quickly because of that?

• 12:16Speaker 00

  I just don't think it affects me on a fundamental human level.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  You're still the same person.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, if if we lost and I was an absolute dirtbag and a terrible sport, it probably would.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Yes, okay.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  But losing because someone's better or you made a mistake or you just you weren't as good as you wanted to be, like, that's just a lesson.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  But it's the same thing, like on a bigger bigger scale, obviously, but most people who watch a World Cup final don't wake up the next morning. Like, or, you know, for the next week, thinking about it. Life goes on.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  With with just he's saying that, and I know like, because obviously the the way that we've introduced you in this episode and the way that I imagine most people introduce you, it's all about really your sporting achievements. But I just wonder if that bothers you at all?

• 13:09Speaker 00

  That you think that about me?

• 13:11Speaker 02

  That people would just think that, oh, Elise Perri cricket cricket legend.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Um, no, that doesn't really bother me.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  No, it wouldn't bother me either.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  That actually sounds pretty good. Brian Shelton, cricket legend.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  I like that. No, sorry, continue. Yeah, so I cut you off.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Um, no, it doesn't bother me, but it would really bother me if that's what I thought of myself.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  Wow. When we um, we have a psychologist on the show regularly, Dr. Emily, and recently we did an episode um, for our subscribers on identity. And I came into it with this, I really struggled with the question of like, who am I? Um, and especially the, the thing that occurred to me is like, God, if I, if I lost this show, like this didn't exist and the worst possible thing happened and I didn't have my wife and kids anymore, I think I'd be no one, like I, I wouldn't be anything. And out of this discussion, I had like a lightbulb moment that had never occurred to me before. That I'm, I'm not those things, I'm the way I do those things. Does that make sense?

• 14:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:21Speaker 03

  And I wondered, what is it about the way you do life that makes you you?

• 14:27Speaker 00

  I really, I really like that way of framing it. Um.

• 14:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. The other way I've kind of heard it is like, when someone asks who you are, like, it's just, I am.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  Full stop.

• 14:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Which is pretty hard to like, stop yourself there.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, very hard.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Cause grammatically as well.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  English wasn't a strong say.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  I am, I, I am.

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Do go on.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  You keep stopping.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Um, but yeah, I mean, and that's so much of that is just a feeling within yourself as well. Like whether you live to the line of where I guess like, not to be too woo woo, but like your inner being pulls you. Or whether you live to a line that is about, well, if I do this, people will like me. Or if I accomplish this, I'm going to feel great. Or if I win this, like, that'll be, that'll be it. That's when I'll like, like myself kind of thing.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, which I've fallen for a lot in life, I think.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's, and so have I. Like, I think we all do it various times. Like, I, I could not sit here and say that if I get out for a duck in the next match that I play, that I won't have a moment where I'm like, this is really affecting how I feel about myself.

• 15:46Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Um, and I think we all do that, um, to various levels. I guess it's probably just recognizing that and accepting it. And then in some time, in some way, shifting that back to, no, like, I'm just me. Like, and how I navigate that world needs to be in line with how I want to be.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  On a very fundamental human level, not how I wanna be because I play cricket.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Or I'm an athlete, or I'm a daughter, or anything like that.

• 16:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  And I think sometimes that shows up most when you you interact with a stranger.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  On any given day.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, can you explain more?

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Well, I think like,

• 16:27Speaker 00

  if you give them the time of day, um, and there's days where I am so far in my own head and so concerned about something to do with me, that I can't see a fellow human being next to me for like for them. And there's other days where I'm like really, like, I guess calm and composed and just present. And that person next to me is, I don't know them from a biosight, but they're the most interesting person in that moment.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  And you want to know more.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that lets you up.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Are you, are you okay? Like, if you were to, say, fluff an opportunity to be that person that you wanna be, do you feel a sense of sort of shame or guilt about it? Does that?

• 17:07Speaker 00

  Um, I think firstly, I kind of feel a sense of, okay, well, what's going on?

• 17:13Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  Why am I, why am I in this space?

• 17:16Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  And then if it's kind of something that I don't, I don't love about myself or a characteristic that I don't, I would rather not do, then I'd feel guilty, yeah. Like, you know, you know, when you turn up to your your family's house or you see mum and dad and you just like walk away from it and you're like, damn it, like, I was not as good.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  Daughter as I could have been just saying, because I was distracted by X, Y, Z, and I know that they love me unconditionally. So I just let my guard down. Um, but then that's, that's how you showed up that day. Like, what can you do other than? Yeah, keep trying.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  Shall I begin the next day?

• 17:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  In the, in that situation, would you ever like reference it to them? Would you ever say, would you ever like message them afterwards and say, ah, that I, I was not, I was not a hundred percent.

• 18:04Speaker 03

  Still thinking about the duck.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Would you reference it and talk about it?

• 18:08Speaker 00

  A hundred percent, yeah.

• 18:09Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, and I think the thing that I struggle with is that my parents are just the most incredibly amazing, I'm like, unbelievable people, so forgiving, and they just accept me for how I turn up. And, and maybe that is what gives me the capacity, like, in the broader world, to go out and, and try really hard to be that open, kind of gracious, hopefully, like.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Nice person, which I'm not all the time, like, and that that's the point, that's because I'm a human, but we're all flawed. But yeah, I think mum and dad have always given me that space.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  You know, even when I chucked a tantrum in the nets with dad when I was a kid, you know, when he was throwing me balls, I was thinking, why have I brought her down here again?

• 18:55Speaker 02

  How old were you then?

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Um, twenty.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Getting ready for your second World Cup.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Well, that is, I mean, that is, that interests me so much. My daughter is six and she had her first ever sporting event the other day, it was cross country.

• 19:17Speaker 00

  That makes me nervous.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it made me nervous for her. She didn't really know what it was.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And all the girls lined up together and I had to run, I think it was a K. It was an amazing memory that I will cherish forever. We didn't, I decided to not talk about what it was because she was just excited. So we've got cross country. I said, what's that? She said, I think we're running, right? That'll do. And then she got out there and I watched her line up, talking to her friends. And the whistle went off and I could see her going, what are we doing? And just ran because everyone else is running. But there was one point I saw her running sideways so she could talk to the person next to her.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  But I remember afterwards, I said, oh my God, you came third and you did some of it backwards. That's amazing. And she said, yeah. And I saw Benji cheering for me. I heard him yelling my name. And that's what she was excited about. And that's what I was obviously excited about as well. But people were trying to congratulate her for where she finished in the, in the race. She didn't even notice that. She, I don't think she even knew the aim of the race, the joy she got from her older brother cheering her. The thing I'm thinking about most in my life right now is how to father my daughter, like that, that's getting that relationship right. And that, that, that felt like a big moment for just, you know, with me and Elsie, just like. The way I was with her for half an hour after just chatting about it and that night we'd reflected on the race.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  It feels like a sadly unique scenario where a lot of extremely successful sports people, their dad has been their, their influence in life has been questionable. You seem like you have the perfect dad. What could I learn off your dad about how to be a good dad?

• 20:56Speaker 00

  Um, firstly, you sound like an amazing dad, but I, yeah, I think it's just, it's just that, it's just going along for the ride with we, with each other. Um, and, and not having some, I guess, grand plan of where that's going to end up. Um, and I think as a kid, like reflecting on that, you feel that the genuineness or the intent from your parents, like even if they're trying to hide it, like you, I think you know exactly what, what things are about. You might not be able to articulate it, but you get a sense of your parents' expectations. And I think for, for me, growing up, I just, all my memories and, and still what means the most to me from a cricket perspective is just

• 21:42Speaker 00

  spending hours like in the backyard, down at the park, you know, at the local swimming pool. It didn't matter where, just being active and learning new skills with, with mum and dad. And that turns like, kind of transversed into being in the nets when I was old enough and getting my first bat and, and learning technique. And then, you know, we had a, a bit of grass next to our house at one point. So dad taught me how to kick left and right footed. Um, but none of that was with like this intent to go anywhere with it. It was just, it was just learn this skill, enjoy doing it. Um, and spend time together. And I think that has fundamentally like given me this amazing kind of.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  Reason why I do things because it's like it all stems back to just the joy of like learning a new skill and working on something and progressing something um with dad. Dad's the last person I speak to before every game that I play. One, because a big reason why I play is because of this connection that we've got and what we've shared. And I think, you know, whenever I walk out on the field, like I never feel like I'm just walking out by myself to do this. Obviously, I'm in the team as well, but like in terms of like, I don't ever carry everything by myself because it's just kind of like, I might be like the physical embodiment of of it, but like dad's always been there.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  We've always worked together. It's like this shared space, um, which I, which I love. Um, and so, yeah, like I still look to him for like all of his like advice and wisdom and perspective as well. Um.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Very specific parenting question. When you did have a tantrum in the nets when you.

• 23:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna ask that actually.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  What did he do?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. Word for it.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  My dad is like the most placid, docile guy, just not fazed by anything. I'm pretty sure he just used to stand there and just let me have at it.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  And it didn't happen a lot, um, but when it did, yeah, like, and then like it did kind of just peter out and then he'd just throw balls again. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, there'd probably be a quiet word in the car on the way home. Um, oh, like, Dad, can I get an ice cream? Not today.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  That's where I'm going wrong.

• 24:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, me too. So, um, you've, you've spoken so beautifully about the relationship with your dad um in, in sport. And what an amazing figure he's been. Is he, is that? Relationship and sort of advice extend outside of sport like is he, do you have a similar relationship of?

• 24:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, fortunately slash very unfortunately dad was a maths teacher as well, so.

• 24:30Speaker 03

  At the school you went to?

• 24:31Speaker 00

  No, thank God, but yeah, we did lots of times tables in the car. But he used to dread a red light because he'd be like, right, six times six.

• 24:41Speaker 03

  Thirty six.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  Shall we get going?

• 24:44Speaker 03

  It's one of those, the only bit of maths that I remember.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Oh, same. Yeah, and I actually, I missed a lot of school towards back end of high school. And I vividly remember dad teaching me basically the entire maths curriculum. One weekend before the HSE exam and I just bawling like in tears, sitting there, I hate this. Like, but he was so good and like he'd go and get me a hot Milo.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Just to ease the pain.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Good for you.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  He's just the most patient, placid man. And just always bends and flows with like, with his family, you know? And so I think no matter what I've kind of been going through, like he's just constantly there. He doesn't have a strong opinion on how I should do it or why I'm doing it. He just is interested in me and, and what I'm, what I'm doing.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  There's a couple of things I would love to ask you about. I think if it's like how they don't mind reading you just a small passage from your book.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  I'm naturally pretty shy, especially around new people. And I practically have a phobia about having phone calls with strangers. Being on my own in a social situation with people I don't know is probably the most uncomfortable situation I can imagine. My immediate reaction to anything that involves meeting new people or being in a public setting on my own is to run away or avoid it at all costs. I think a lot of people would experience, but they wouldn't expect it from someone who is just like so accomplished and so successful. How do you work through that when so much of your life, I'm guessing, would be meeting people you don't know and, and being in situations that feel a little bit uncomfortable?

• 26:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I I I think you've just got to be be open to it. Um, and I guess in that sense, like fight every urge to to like cower within your own shell. Um, actually, this reminds me, it's a bit of a random story, but um, last year I went to a a retreat in New Zealand. Uh, I've never been to a retreat before, but.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  What sort of retreat was it?

• 26:50Speaker 00

  Ah, it's like a health and wellness retreat, I suppose. Um, and part of it was one of the days we um, we fasted, but we also didn't speak. So it was a silent day.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Did you know the people on the retreat or?

• 27:06Speaker 00

  Uh, I had my best friend was there, but um, everyone else was strangers. There's twenty of us. Um, most amazing people I've ever met. Um, still in contact with quite a few of them, but on this day where um, we were fasting and also it was a silent day, so there was no verbal communication with anyone. Um, and perhaps because of this, like, everything was heightened, but like, I'd be walking um, on on the property and you'd be approaching someone, like someone I didn't know that well from a distance. And I realized for the first time ever how anxious I am about initial interaction with someone because I'd see them and my mind would be like, oh my God, what am I gonna say? Like, make sure you're not weird.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Like, make sure you make them feel great. Um, like, oh, crap. And then this whole sense of relief, I don't have to say anything.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Mm, yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  And it took so, or it gave me so much mental energy back when I realized for this day, I don't have to overthink every interaction that I have with another person.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Even when you're talking?

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Um, it was just, it was more so that day. Like, I was like, oh my gosh.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  What a realization, though.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, how much time do I spend overthinking simply saying hello to someone, let alone having a full conversation with them?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  I really struggle when I'm anxious or like just shy or, yeah, awkward. It's like I can't. Making eye contact is really hard, standing still and just holding myself in a composed nature, like I'll always fiddle with my hands or sway or something. I just like the energy that I need to kind of get rid of, like somehow or another. Um, I definitely find it, yeah, really tricky to just.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  Be still in a space and engage with someone directly like.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it really blew me away, like that that's the case. And I think it actually like to a degree now. When I am in situations, I'm like, okay, like you're just saying hello like and what happens from there. Like, I feel like I probably think three steps down the track. Like, okay, so I say hello and then what do I say? And then what do I say? And it's like, actually relating to another human being is pretty natural instinct. Like, I just go with the flow.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  But yeah, I never used to do that. Um, and it wasn't until that day that you couldn't actually speak to people that I was like, oh my God, I overthink all of this.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Hmm. What a realization.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's amazing. Like, I mean, that I think people, I find that surprising to that someone who is so accomplished would would struggle socially. Because my assumption would be that you'll always feel like you'll fit in because when someone asks the dreaded question, like, what do you do? You've got a really good answer, you know, that people will be generally impressed by. Um, well, unless you're in England, but other than that, um, but, uh, but I, I guess like there's a comedian. He's been around for a long time, a guy called Frank Skinner in English, a British comedian, actually. And he once told a funny story about, it wasn't really stories, he was sort of saying like, he only holidays in places where he's recognized.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  So, cause he, he hates the feeling of not being famous. Cause it, cause it just helps him feel like it helps with his anxiety, I guess. Like, it's like he'll only go to places where.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Anxiety or ego?

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Well, probably both, probably both. But he's, it's funny because he's so upfront about it and open about it. Um, but does that like, I don't know, does, does that resonate with you at all? Obviously, that's not, you're not the same in that sense. But is it more comfortable for you if you're in a room where everyone in the room knows your successes? Does that make it easier or does it not make a difference?

• 30:52Speaker 00

  I probably think it's the total opposite. Cause then I think you perhaps need to live up to someone's perception about you and you almost start on like unequal footing like. Yeah, because they've seen you before, they've made assumptions about you based on what you do. And back to that conversation that we're having about identity, um, in any interaction that I have with anyone, like I don't stand there going. I'm a gnarly cricket player.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, that definitely comes across.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  I mean, who uses the word gnarly, you know? And cricket in the same sense.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  That's a great line. Can I, Elise Perry, gnarly cricket player?

• 31:35Speaker 00

  Oh my God, I'm such a loser.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  I just like use the word gnarly a lot in our conversation yesterday as well.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Did I?

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  It's a great word.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  It's the word of the month.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  No, but I just thought like, maybe I should use that word more. For this is using it to use it.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's. Silent G as well really gets me.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  It's a brilliant word, really, isn't it, gnarly?

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Gnarly cricketer.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  I don't think anyone's been ever described as a gnarly cricket.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Not until.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Let alone self-described.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, all that stuff I was talking about made me hum.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  On your next podcast, a self-described gnarly cricket player, Elise Perry joins us.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  But yeah, so I think that that that can sometimes feel like, yeah, it it takes out like the genuineness of a conversation.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  I really relate to that. I really do. We did a national tour last year and the year before, and the first national tour we did, we actually, we hung outside the venue and met anyone who would come and chat to us, we'd talk to them. And I, I found it exhausting. Like, I love many of them, but I found it exhausting. So I remember thinking, someone talked to us and I'd be thinking, but I've said all my best stuff. You've heard all the best stuff I can possibly say. It's not going to be as good as what I said on stage. So this is not going to, you're not going to, you're not going to get, you'll be disappointed. This is going to be, whatever I say now is disappointing. And I just, every single person that came up to us would be like, this is going to be disappointing. Whatever I say will be disappointing. I don't think you guys, I think you guys really enjoyed it. I think you guys were.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  But I remember, I was just.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  All the attention was on me. It was great.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  But all I'd say, I relate to that feeling of like, if they know who you are, there's an expectation or, I don't know, I, I find that a bit stressful.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like this, when someone asks you a question and I think they already have an answer in their head and you don't deliver that answer, I like see the disappointment on someone's face. And I am like.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Example? Like, what do you mean? Like, what's?

• 33:28Speaker 00

  Oh, it's a great question. Like, um, I'd be like. Oh, you must be, um, you must be really excited about, um, that game coming up. And I'll be like, oh, yeah, like, it'd be, it'd be good, I think. But like, um, I don't know, like, I'll just downplay it or whatever. And they're like,

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  How can you not be excited about that game?

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  And I'm like, I haven't thought about that game. And I, I don't know, that's a terrible example.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  That's a great example, because I, I think like that, that sense of it means so much to them, the game. And this is like their moment to talk to you and like, share the excitement. And the fact that you're not as excited, or, you know, as they were hoping that you would be. It's sort of like confusing. It's like, hang on a second, what? You're supposed to be like so pumped about this.

• 34:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think it's just like that you've got this idea of me and now you've got the real me. And there's a big disconnect there.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  Um, and I'd probably rather talk to you about not cricket, but that's what you want to talk to about. So then, so then like trying to find that, or I'm more interested in you than talking to you about like, you know, I don't know.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Whether the ball bounced on that pitch a lot, like, if you know what I mean. I don't know. It's a terrible example, but like, yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  No, no, but that's like, first thing Hugh asked today was like, do you prefer batting or bowling?

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  And it's,

• 34:51Speaker 00

  I think he asked that facetious.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  No, he did, he did. But that's the sort of, that's the sort of question. It was definitely facetious, but is it's a good example of if someone has their moment with like a, an athlete that they really love in a sport they really love.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  It's like their moment to talk about that. It's like, I'll get an insight. I'll get a little bit more than they don't get on when they watch it on telly or whatever. But it's, of course, and it's like, that you're like, that's not, that's not my whole life, you know?

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then I think really in that situation, like the best thing to do is just actually match that person's expectations, excitement, because

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  I think that's, that would probably be the kind thing to do. But then is it like genuine no, so then it it drains you a bit.

• 35:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Maybe the same thing as like meeting people outside of the show, like you kind of bring this persona because like that's probably what they want. And that is like, to me, that's a bit like, oh, I've just lost a part of myself doing that.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  It's kind of like the persona versus the person. It's like you're putting on a bit of a performance, I guess.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it still feels like work, whereas I think all the best parts of life are like just genuine interactions.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Um, and often like friends, you know, that you make. You need, like, you need, like, well, I find these days, anyway, I connect with people because there's just this sense of like, oh, my gosh, there's something in the air. Like, we're just like connecting and for whatever reason, your energy and my energy and I haven't touched on what you do. Or who, like, like what your job is and you haven't touched on that, but like, we're just like finding all these crazy like

• 36:32Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  things to talk about and like be interested in each other. Um, but it's hard to contrive that, it just happens rarely.

• 36:40Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  So I met you in two thousand and twenty, right? So two thousand and twenty was just before your World Cup campaign. I was very lucky to come in and speak to to the girls. Um, it was absolute career highlight for me. It was just incredible.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  It was awesome.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  The guy who introduced me went on about my cricket for way too long. I was I was mortified because.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  He wrote way too much of the bio I gave.

• 37:06Speaker 00

  He went past the highlighted.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Uh, it was.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  And so soon after that, the World Cup campaign started like days afterward. Um, and it was a home World Cup, which is so exciting, a highlight for any sports person. At that time in your career, absolutely, you were um without question the best player in the world and a lot of the attention was on you at a home World Cup. Progressed around nicely and then in the last final before the the actual final, UT hamstring off the bone, um, proper tendon rupture, which is just horrific. You and then Australia go on to play in the in the final against India. Sorry to bring this up.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  No, no, it's absolutely fine.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  At the MCG in front of the biggest crowd ever, um, for a women's sporting contest. And you're on the sidelines. How did you deal with that? I mean, the disappointment must have been, I'm guessing, looking back in Korea, to be one of the most disappointing moments. You seem to handle yourself so incredibly well, but I'm guessing on the inside it was really painful.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, ah, look, um, it's sort of a weird experience, all of that, actually. Um, because in, on one hand, like, the whole moment and like period of time for that World Cup, and particularly the final where we had like nearly 90,000 people at the MCG for the final, which was like completely like unheard of for women's cricket at that time. And I like a real watershed moment. I just that moment or that period was so much bigger than any game that like, part, part of me was like, just like amazed to be a part of that. Um, and it wasn't really about playing or being involved in it.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  Um, and maybe that like kind of in some ways kind of softened the blow of of not playing in it and just experiencing it and seeing it as like this amazing moment for so many people. And like, everyone owned it and also completely didn't own it. Like, it was just, it was so cool. But yeah, like, on the other hand, like, missing out on something that you would desperately love to be involved in. Um, yeah, it was, it was kind of bittersweet, I guess. Um, and I remember the one thing I do remember from that was Stan, I went, the girls were amazing. Um, and I stayed on with the team after I got injured. And they insisted on me walking out and singing the anthem with them before the game.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  I remember like, because I didn't have to like run off the field to get ready to play. I just stood there for a second and I like did a, like I lifted my head and did like a full three sixty around the stadium and the G's like the cauldron kind of thing. And I was just like, oh my God, like, and I remember feeling quite emotional and being like, oh, I'd love to feel what that would be like to bowl a ball out in the middle today. Or like hit a ball, but like it just wasn't, it wasn't written, written like that for me. And that's like, yeah, it's not something that I guess I dwell on. Um, cause I still had some amazing experiences, but yeah, it was, it was a tough one.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  You, you've been at the, at the forefront and I, you speak about that watershed moment in, in Australian women's cricket. When you started, you were speaking about the fact that it wasn't a profession, now it is. So you, you've lived the transition. What are your feelings around how far women's sport has come, but also how far um you'd like it still to go?

• 40:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's amazing. I think it's phenomenal how far it's come. It's also not like in the sense of like, I guess, like the way that society has shifted and, and there's been so much change and growth in that space. And I think sometimes sport mirrors or even like precedes like a general change in society. And I think the role that, that women play more broadly is so much more evolved and advanced than, you know, what it used to be. And in terms of equality, like there's been no better time to be a female in lots of respects. But specifically from a sports perspective, like to kind of live that out is easily like my biggest career highlight is to just like to have kind of been fortunate enough

• 41:13Speaker 00

  enough to play in an era that's seen that transition and growth. And one of the coolest things about it is like now when we play games, you know, at the end of a game around the fence, there's the same amount of young girls and boys lining up to meet the players and get, get an autograph or or a picture. And I think about that, like 10 years down the track, they're going to be 18, 19, 20, talking to their mates about what they want to do on Friday night. And I'd just be like, let's go to the WBBL, like it's nothing, you know, whereas I think it's probably still a small, like it's a small element, but there's still an element at the moment. Like, or go to the women's cricket or the women's soccer or the women's rugby or women's AFL. Um, so there's sort of like that defining characteristic

• 41:56Speaker 00

  that kind of sets, sets things apart. Whereas like to me, like true equality is like, you just talk about it, like in the same vein. So that perspective, and then like, I guess the other part of it is like, what's possible from like a commercial perspective. And I don't know how I feel about that, like, cause I I think there's so many special elements about women's sport that seems like so authentic and accessible at the moment to like everyone, that the further down the track you go, like in terms of like professionalizing things or putting more like financial kind of stimulus around the sport, maybe it loses some of that.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Becomes a bit more commercialized, a bit more corporate, yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Potentially. But then I also think there's so much capacity and space there for the sport to grow and become even more like lucrative. I just really hope that that happens in a really like authentic way, I guess, like a way that is, it doesn't just follow the blueprint of how male's professional sport has gone and where that's landed, but actually like goes to a pattern and vibe that fits women's sport.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Hmm. You've, you've mentioned a couple of times ego and just the idea of ego. I've like thought a lot about it over the last like 10 years or so, and just in relation to my own and just trying to like reckon with it and trying to understand like what is, when am I doing something from like an egoic place or not? And it's, it's a really fascinating area. Have you thought much about like the idea of ego and like if you, in like with, I mean, we all have an ego, but even how would you describe your ego? Like, how would you?

• 43:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think I have actually. Um, I've never like thought to put descriptive words to it, but I think, you know, it's kind of designed to, to protect us in, in some respects. Like I guess like an element, uh, elementary or fundamental level, like it's there to protect you as a being from threats. Um, so whenever I feel like I'm like a lot of my behavior or actions or thoughts being like sort of coming or derived from my ego, like I feel like it's when I'm fearful, I've got some kind of doubt or some kind of complex about something and I'm trying to prove to myself that like I'm great.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Um, and often that means like pitting yourself against other people. And I know that that.

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Brings absolutely zero peace.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Or or joy to what you're doing. Um. I think it it becomes a bit like survivalist, like.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  Um, I think that's what the way I've thought about it. And then, and then how your ego interacts with others. And, you know, if you've got two people in that same sort of disposition, it's so ugly.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, gross.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Lagerheads.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  Or if you've got, if you're the one being like that and someone else is like, you know, completely calm and like devoid of their ego at that point in time, how ugly that makes you feel.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. It can also bring you out of it, though, I find.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  If someone can meet you with compassion, it can break that that fear down.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, I totally agree. Um. And I think, I think when you go to the root of it, it's like,

• 45:25Speaker 00

  all of like, all of it is so materialistic that comes from your ego, I think. It's always about something that's not within.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  How do you, what do you mean by that?

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Well, like when I think about when I'm becoming egotistical, it's all about like outcomes or status or

• 45:44Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  like rewards that have nothing to do with my internal fulfillment or drive or like

• 45:53Speaker 00

  state of being. It's all like, oh, I'm better than them or I need to win this to prove to people that like how great I am. Or if I say this and prove them wrong, that makes me, that makes me more attractive.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  So, yeah, I don't know. I I don't know. How would you describe yours?

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Uh, pain in the ass.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Um.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  I read, I read a thing years ago. Uh, I think, I forget who wrote, I think it's like Hugh Mackay, who's, I think that's his name.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Australian social scientist.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he wrote something in one of his books, which is essentially like, at any given moment, as humans, we're always assessing, are we the high status or the low status in a room? Like, are we up or down, basically? And I think when I'm, if I'm doing that unconsciously, and I can sense myself trying to get high, like trying to kind of essentially like win, like not win, but be the higher status, that's when I get, when I look back at my life and think of all the times that I've tried to do that, they're just, they're the times where I feel like my ego has really got a hold on me. And it still happens. And whenever I am conscious of it and I'm with someone and I'm like, oh, I'm trying to,

• 47:14Speaker 02

  I'm trying to get up here and I can catch myself and just be me. Um, or not try to win or be the best, that's when I, I feel like I can get a little bit of a handle on my ego.

• 47:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think that's so true. Like, it's not just like, like you can feel it. Like you can feel your own ego and you can feel someone else's. Um, and it, and what that does to an interaction or the like, yeah, the, the mood or the energy or people's responses in a room when there's like, when your ego is really strong is kind of scary. Like you walk away from it and you just, you don't feel like.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  Connected.

• 47:53Speaker 00

  At all.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Whereas when you can, like, when you're devoid of that and you're in a space and you just can, you just, the connection is amazing.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  On, um, social interactions, I feel a lot of pressure to be, sometimes I don't want to be chatty. I just want to be sort of quiet and introverted. I enjoy people, but I get nervous around people. And even old friends, I feel this pressure to be really charismatic and extroverted. There seems to be a social kind of construct and belief that extroversion is better than introversion.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Um.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  Um, and I, and I don't know, I might be projecting, but it feels like the way you've talked about social interaction and just generally being is that you're somewhat introverted as well. Have you ever felt that pressure that like, that one is better than the other?

• 48:47Speaker 00

  Um, there's always a question in those like bio pieces or like, you know, snippets for social media or whatever it is, like who's the funniest teammate?

• 48:57Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  And I remember thinking, oh my God, I never get a vote in that.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  I'm not filthy about it all, but.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  Oh, like you never get chosen as the funniest.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  No, I never get, I never get mentioned. Um, you know, it's sort of like the same, same crop of people come up. Um, but then like, I kind of think, well, you, you, you need both because, um, like extroverted people set a great mood and vibe and, you know, bring people together or like create an energy in a space, which is wonderful, but introverted people give them that platform.

• 49:37Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Um, and probably like see things a little bit more broadly in any given time. Um, so that, you know, like, if you're a little bit quieter and reserved and you're sitting back and you might pick up on someone over in the other side of the room who's actually kind of like not responded well to something because they're not quite great or, and you see that and then that's something you can pick up on it like as a teammate.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  You know, and I think that there's different strengths to both and you need both of them in, in a social setting. Um, and in the world in more generally in a family, um, for it to all kind of work well, I guess. But, but the stigma, yeah, I mean, because it's much easier to like be in a room like extroverts. Cause it's like, stuff just happens. Um, but I think some of my most deep and meaningful connections are like in those quiet moments of like conversation where like neither of you are particularly extroverted and it takes a lot to, to talk like deeply about something.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  But they're often more profound conversations too.

• 50:49Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Yeah, I um, I don't think it's, I think it would be pretty obvious that I'm, I feel that way and behave that way. But I think it's interesting for me that I feel like my, a lot of my closest friends are kind of the opposite to me in a social setting, but then also have the gear where they can go into that very deep conversation. But I think it's, I've, I've always been very attracted to sort of charismatic, extroverted people and wanna be around them. And I think you've summed it up beautifully, that I think it works well as a compliment.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 03

  They complement each other well, when it's, when you're allowed to be yourself, I guess.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  I feel like they'd probably be drawn to you for the opposite reasons. Like you provide a platform for them to express themselves publicly, but then also a platform to be more introspective or deeper

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  in another space when it's appropriate. And I think that means a lot.

• 51:43Speaker 03

  I hope I haven't mislabeled you at all as a sort of introverted person. Has it been challenging for you?

• 51:49Speaker 01

  That's a very nice thing to say, by the way, and very true. That's so accurate.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, sorry, I should have said, I'm just not great at accepting compliments either.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  I'll accept it for you. He accepted, I accept it, it's great.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  If we did a podcast again.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  It's called, it's called Our Greatest Achievements.

• 52:09Speaker 03

  What I wanted to ask from that position is that so much of your, the job, there's like so many parts to your job as an elite sports person. But part of that is sort of performing in front of a camera and performing in interviews and doing things like you're doing today. And I think hopefully today doesn't feel like a lot of those, but that must be so bloody hard.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Whoever invented TikTok.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  One, because I'm thirty five and I don't fit the demographic, but somehow still get asked to do TikTok things.

• 52:46Speaker 03

  But that's kind of an expectation that's placed on sports people.

• 52:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I read something once, which really resonated with me. And there's a psychologist talking about like balance. You know, and often when we talk about having a balanced life or living a balanced lifestyle, like we talk about with time. So how much time do you spend working versus being with your family or working or playing? And, and she really reframed that to like, to me, balance is about energy. So whenever you have to do something that you find really draining and takes away a lot of energy, like, how is that balanced with the things that give you lots of energy? So, um, as a bit of an introvert and also it's just things that I love doing.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  Like I, I could train all day, like that, that gives me so much energy. I love it. Like, it doesn't feel like a job I lose track of time. But if you ask me to go into a photo shoot, like that's the longest day of my life. For most reasons.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  And so like, the amount of photo shoots that I would do a year, well, because I don't get asked to do that many photo shoots. But like, it wouldn't be many because if I had to do them all the time, I'd, I'd be so drained and I'd be a terrible version of myself. But there are things that you have to do, like, you know, same with like functions and that kind of stuff. So then I just like try and find things that give me lots of energy back. And that's been a really nice thing because I think in modern day life, it doesn't really matter what you do as a vocation. Like, it's not really a lot of balance to it. And especially if you want to be really good at something or you want to give your all to something. Like, from a time perspective, it's just, yeah, especially when you're in the thick of it and you're grafting and you're trying to like,

• 54:39Speaker 00

  master something, like that takes a lot of time. But if it gives you all the energy in the world, then like, I think that's a great thing.

• 54:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  It's been such a wonderful conversation. I feel like there's so much, um, I mean, I was, there was, there's a few things I want to touch on, but we just went to so many places that I really feel like will be so helpful to so many people. I think especially when I think about, um, The, I was kind of like why this whole podcast started was like, we wanted to chat to people who, from the outside you go, well, I got everything, life's perfect, but then to hear what life is actually like. And to hear that you are such a deep thinker with such profound insight into your, the way you move through the world. It's just for me, it's been really encouraging to think about the way I live and, and the way I relate to people.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  And yeah, that's amazing. So yeah, but do you want to, should we talk more about cricket now?

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Bowl out there.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  There's a lot of room.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  That would be awesome.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  I know we're just joking, but that would actually be great.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  I could have that ball in the car. No, I don't. I need you to know, I don't, I don't.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Do you have any more like nuggets of wisdom, perspective that you can impart on us, me immortals?

• 56:02Speaker 00

  I'm far from wise, far from wise. And also I was actually thinking about, I haven't seen that book in ages.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Your book?

• 56:09Speaker 00

  That book. But it reminds me like, so I guess that's a point in time. Like I would never read that again. Because I think I wrote.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Other people should buy it and read it.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  I think you get it for free.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  They give them away as kindling most of the time. But yeah, I like, I kind of look at that and I, I can't remember when, maybe it was 2020. So what's that? Six years ago. It's like the minute you finish writing that, you are not the same person.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's so true.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  And like, so when I, when I saw it on the desk, I was kind of like, oh, like what is in that? Because it's probably intriguing in a way because I, there'd be things in there. I'm like, like, what were you smoking?

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that surprises me. What were you smoking? I wouldn't have thought that'd be part of the health regime for a professional.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  Passively, passively.

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I guess that's the point. Like it's just, you are constantly growing and changing and. I think just being open to that.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  But is there, is there one main difference that you can set, you know, in yourself since what you wrote that book? Like, how have you changed? What's, what's, is there one thing that you think, oh, um, this is how I'm different than when I wrote that book?

• 57:23Speaker 00

  Um, I think I know myself better and quite contradictory to that is that I know less than probably what I thought I knew in that book.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. Yeah.

• 57:34Speaker 03

  About yourself or about the world?

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Um, about the world, I think. Yeah. So like, I always kind of think the stronger my opinion is, the less I know. Cause once you know something deeply, there's so much gray. There's no, there's no black or white. Um. Yeah. And I mean, that only really comes with time, but.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a pretty good nugget of wisdom.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  My goodness.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  I mean, roomy.

• 58:00Speaker 03

  It resonates with me a lot. I feel like, and it's exactly what you said, but I'd certainly feel like the more I understand myself. They're just generally the more, I just feel like I don't understand the world.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  Which is a nice feeling as well, Eric.

• 58:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that's the thing. It's good.

• 58:13Speaker 00

  It makes you more accepting of others.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  I've found, you know, like I, I'm gonna stop rambling, but, um, yeah, I probably had a really strong position on how I think you should be as an athlete at one point when I was younger, like dedicated to the cause, you know, like training really hard and this and this and this and, and like this routine and this level of fitness. And, and I think about that now and I'm like, it's just crazy. Like to put that kind of imposition on anyone, like, cause we're not robots and like there's no right or wrong way to do anything. Um, and that's why there's so much magic in the world. Cause people find all these obscure ways to, to do things. Um.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  True. It's kind of like, I, I think that's sometimes when I meet someone who's very judgmental of someone, like, you know, if you're very judgmental of how someone's living their life or the things that they're choosing to do, like, none of us know what's right or wrong. But that, but when you hear someone make a really kind of harsh judgment on someone else, it sort of sounds like that you're coming from a place of knowing.

• 59:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  And it, and that's just so, it's so liberating to not to know.

• 59:21Speaker 00

  A hundred percent.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:23Speaker 00

  And this is maybe a little bit controversial. Um, and it's just my opinion. Which means nothing, but like even when people are so strongly aligned to a set of values.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 59:35Speaker 00

  Um, or words that like, that they come back to like, and that is, that might work for some people, but I've kind of realised for me, like, if I tried to literally live this word every single minute of every day, I would fail.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  Regularly.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  Um, so like to hold yourself to that kind of account or hold anyone else to that kind of account is um, so fraught with danger, cause at some point you will like have mud on your face. Because it's just how the world works. Like the minute you think you've got it sorted, something else happens. Um, in the same way as the minute you think you know something, you know, your mind changes, so.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  That kind of like, kind of comes back to the grammatically awkward sentence you said earlier of just I am, which is sort of, it's a lot of like presence. This is like very present, like just sort of like taking life as it comes and you just be, just being and just sort of like reacting and taking it all in.

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  Which how often do you reckon you do that?

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I'm always so present, past, future, do not exist. Um, no, I, I do it so, so little, but it's my ultimate. If I had, if I had a genie in a bottle, my three wishes would be present a hundred percent of the time.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, cause thirty seconds or is bliss sometimes.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  And then when you get a whole space of it, like, I think that's what makes performing like in a sports sense, like everyone talks about flow. I think that's like what's so addictive about it. It's like, oh my God, I've actually escaped all this like, regret and all this anxiety about the past and the future. And I am just here, like.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  And I am.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  It's the best, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. How often do you reckon you're present?

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  Not often, like not often enough, like, and then I think about like, so we had, we had a training camp last week. It was our first one back and the whole week for no particular reason. I was just like nowhere, like every time we're in the nets, I was thinking about, oh, what am I gonna have for lunch? Uh, or what have we got next after this? Like, and I just could not focus like properly and it like carried throughout the whole week and it was driving me nuts. Um, and like, yeah, like trying to find the reason for that was like really interesting. I was like, I was actually just really nervous about like being back with the team. Hmm. For some reason, like, I'm like, okay, this is kind of like, I've been here a few times before.

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  People are probably getting sick of me, like, you know, I'm close to the end of my career, then I am the start. I really want to show up and be like another really good version of myself for this season. And this is the first one and I'm really worried about like all the different things that I'm doing. Is it still good enough? Like, and that just permeated through the whole week. Um, in actual fact, like if I just went and battered in the nets and just were there and present for that moment. All of those defining things about me being a bit older or being here for like too long or like, am I still good enough? Would have gone out the window. Um.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  I feel like people should just like rewind the last two minutes, listen to what you just said again and imagine like, apply it to like how to live life, not how to play cricket.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Like that is like such a, it's such an incredible, um, I don't know if it's an analogy or a metaphor, but it's as a way to think about like that as a way to be present and why and how the, the benefits it has, it's so, that's so helpful.

• 1:02:59Speaker 03

  Can, can I ask a question on that? Like how you, cause I, I think.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  I was going to acknowledge the fact that you asked us on more wisdom and my gosh.

• 1:03:06Speaker 03

  We got it.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  You're about to bin me off.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  I was like, I don't wanna go.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  Please keep me.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  One more chance, Perry.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  We're going for the Hail Mary.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  It's awesome advice, but I wonder, how do you, how do you do it in the, like, how did you catch that? Like, that that was happening? And then how do you stop yourself from falling into that trap next time?

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  Um, I think the very first thing is accepting that it's happened and not fighting it. But then carving out some, some space in your mind to have a think about it and, and kind of not, not kind of just push it to the back, but be like, okay, well, why, why was I like that?

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  And, and not, so, you know, as we're talking about non-judgmentally, why was I like that? Okay, these are the feelings I'm having, like, like, I'm just scared, like, I've just got, I'm carrying some fear into this. And why am I like scared? And it probably goes full circle back to what my mom said to me, like, the only person that really cares whether you turn up and have a go is you. And you're the only person that feels that. The rest of it is inconsequential to the grand scheme of life, whether you win or lose, like, all those things don't matter. So I guess that always rolls around in my mind. And then it's just about, okay, next time when I get this opportunity, I'll just try and like,

• 1:04:47Speaker 00

  be a little bit better. And I spent the whole week doing that. And by, by Friday, I was like a bit better, but I was like, still like, okay, it's just been a tough week. Like, and that's okay. Nothing's permanent. Like, um, but yeah, I also learned a lot from that week because it was a bit like, bit of a tougher one in terms of doing what I wanted to do and do it well.

• 1:05:12Speaker 03

  So that can be growth as well.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  That's totally growth. Yeah.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I like to find a space, like I'll just go for a walk.

• 1:05:20Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  And that's a great space for me to like, think about that. And like, try and leave my phone at home and not have headphones in and all that stuff because it's really easy to distract yourself.

• 1:05:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  It's amazing what like, you spend hours doing something. So I can spend like, four hours in the nets batting and go nowhere, but having 10 minute quiet conversation with yourself, whether that's writing it down or literally just talking to yourself honestly.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:05:45Speaker 00

  Can change everything.

• 1:05:47Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:05:48Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, particularly if you've been doing something for a long period of time. Like, I actually don't need to do four hours in the nets.

• 1:05:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  I probably need to do an hour and then have an honest conversation with myself and how I'm feeling and accept it and then make some plans to, to feel better.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  This is just like, yeah. Keep going, keep saying stuff.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Oh, this is like, I thought this was gonna be like a six pack of nuggets, but this is like a 12 pack of nuggets of wisdom. Like a full family pack of nuggets.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  We should threaten to end the podcast again.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  It's been so amazing. Thank you so much for your time.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  Unless you've got anything else.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  No, I think people would be tuning out by now.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  I think tuning in next episode, we'll be having Lisa's parents on, um, to talk all things parenting because they sound.

• 1:06:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Incredible. Um, but thank you so much for your time tonight. It's been amazing.

• 1:06:42Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me. It's been awesome.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Well, she is the best. Um, and I think I also deserve credit for not asking her career questions for the entire time. Cause that's kind of what I wanted to do.

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  That would have been hard for you.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Can I just ask with, you know, cause she's, I'm not a big cricket fan.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  But like, as you guys explained to me, she's like, considered one of the best Australian cricket players.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  Ever. Is that like statistically the best or just like a ability?

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Both.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  Both?

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:07:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Numbers and talent.

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  Incredible.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Yep. The thing I want to talk about was her perspective, which she, um, spoke about that she got from her mum early on. In her, she was going to an athletics carnival as a kid and, and her mum, she was racked with nerves and anxiety and her mum said to her, no one's gonna remember what you did in a week's time. And it seems though she's managed to carry that through to her cricket.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  Such a rough thing to hear from your mum, isn't it?

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Hey sweetheart, no one's gonna remember. I certainly won't.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Anyway, there's a psychologist called Daniel Kahneman, who has won a Nobel Prize for economics, but he's a psychologist. And his work completely changed the way that we understand thinking and behaviour. He's written a book called Thinking Fast and Slow.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  Huge book, isn't it?

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's about how our emotional thinking is really fast, but our rational thinking is really slow. And he had a quote, he has a quote which is so perfect for this, but he just said, "Nothing in life is as important as you think it is while you're thinking about it."

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  And when I thought of that quote, I just, I just, I just realised that this is such a big topic for every, everyone's attempt at philosophy. Everyone's trying to talk about this gaining of perspective and putting things into perspective, understanding the sun comes up tomorrow. And so I just wanted to touch on four different philosophies and their take on this because I think it's, with the hope that listening to this, one of them will really resonate with you and will help you sort of, the next time you have something really big coming up that you are so anxious about, you're so nervous about, and you feel like it's not a healthy level of anxiety or nerves, like it's going to get in the way of your performance. Maybe one of those four, I know, I read somewhere that when you do a list, it's meant to be like, you're meant to do the top three or the top five. Well, I got four, so apologies, apologies for the list, doings of list, yeah.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  I feel like people are sick of prime numbers anyway. Go for it.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  I'm going for, so.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Matt's gag. Don't get many of those from me.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  So the first philosophy I want to talk about is the Buddhist philosophy on this, and they talk about impermanence. So a core Buddhist teaching is that everything passes. Pressure arises, moments pass, feelings change, embarrassment fades. A lot of anxiety comes from treating temporary moments as permanent ones. But one of the oldest ideas in Buddhism philosophy is that everything changes, everything moves and everything passes, which I think is really nice.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  That's great. Yeah.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  The Greek concept of eudaimonia, which is focus on meaning, not performance. And I think this is something that Elise has learnt to do really well. But the ancient Greeks believed that the good life wasn't about constant success or praise. It was about living with meaning, purpose and character. So before a big moment, a practical strategy you could think about was just to ask yourself, what kind of person do I want to be in this moment, rather than how do I make everyone admire me? That shift often is powerful enough to reduce anxiety dramatically.

• 1:10:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  How do I want to be rather than how do I want to impress people?

• 1:10:23Speaker 03

  Awesome. It's sort of, it's not exactly the same, but it reminds me a bit of, to link it to cricket.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Finally.

• 1:10:31Speaker 03

  To, to link it to another cricket episode we've done with Pat Cummins, where he talks about how do we want to fail? It's, it reminds me of that in a, in a similar way of like, doesn't matter. How do we want to go about this task? Like, how do we want to fail at this task?

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  I'd rather fail being brave than timid, for example.

• 1:10:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Elaine de Platon's, so his philosophy around, his take on it is that everyone is embarrassed. So he's written extensively on the idea that everyone is carrying insecurities, fears and self-consciousness, which means the people that we think are judging us are often just worrying about themselves. And this is a common thing we have spoken about before, but a lot from his writing is we are all deeply flawed and frightened human beings. And I think just remembering that, especially if you're up in front of a group of people talking, that perspective often softens performance anxiety because it, it kind of, it reminds us that nobody is above us and nobody has life fully figured out. Like, we're all in our own battle to try and succeed.

• 1:11:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, which is, it's impossible to really believe that when you meet some people. But if this podcast has proven anything, it's just like, people are not what you think they are. People you assume, we assume people are like so confident and happy and flawless and everything. And then, but they're just not, no one is.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  And they're concentrating on that. That's what they're thinking about while you're worrying about your own thing.

• 1:11:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And also that even if they, I feel like even if they give you, maybe it's just my own thing, but if I give someone, like I think about someone's insecurity, I might do it for a few seconds, but it, I'm back on me pretty quickly. Does that make sense?

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Yes, totally. And the last one is like more of a, I know it's a philosophical reflection that's used in psychology a lot, but it's the funeral perspective, which sounds quite macabre, but it is incredibly grounding. So will this matter at the end of my life? So then all of a sudden, the speech, the exam, the awkward moment, the game or the sport, whatever it is, it kind of shrinks back into proportion. I think it's one of the most grounding questions we can ask ourselves in high pressure moments is, will this really matter in the big picture of my life? And often the perspective helps us realise there's far, far more to life than just one moment.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Like our life consists of so many moments put together and one moment does not define it.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  And I think when we do lose perspective, when we are anxious, we have this idea that this thing here is, is huge.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  But if you're looking back on it at the end of life, it's really not.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true. It's kind of like, cause I, I find myself when I'm trying to like focus or when I'm, I think I've spoken about this before, but a little like hack that I use, Gem and I use is the spotlight kind of analogy.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  To kind of feel present and to just like everything within the spotlight that's on us is the only thing that matters in the world.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  But then I guess you can reverse that in that situation and kind of like zoom out, like, like on Google Earth and like zoom out right away, or even not on Google Earth, but zoom out on your entire life.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  As more than a moment, like, oh my God, who cares? This is like one speck of a dot in my life. It doesn't matter. So yeah, I guess it can go both ways.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  It's amazing, um, there'd be a video you can look up on YouTube, Carl Sagan's blue dot thing. It's phenomenal on that point. It's like a, it's an image of earth taken from a very long way away where it's a tiny little blue dot. And it's, um, it's a great speech that talks to that exactly. It's beautiful.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Well, a huge thank you to Elise, who was very generous with her time and also, um, with the things she shared with us. Um, and yeah, to me, it just felt like a very special episode, um, for so many reasons, but, um, thank you, Elise.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  Thanks, Elise.

• 1:14:16Speaker 03

  Thanks, Elise.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  And everyone who listened.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  What was that shot?

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  Full shot.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  It's a journey shot, isn't it?

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  I keep bowling, it's straight at the same spot.

• 1:14:26Speaker 03

  Don't bowl there.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  I'll keep hitting it.

• 1:14:31Speaker 03

  If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber-only apps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurundjeri people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 131114.