Dr Emily - What To Do With Envy

What is your envy telling you? 💌Join 7,000+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy Dr Emily Musgrove, our resident psychologist, is back in the studio to talk about the green-eyed monster, and more importantly, how we can work with it to incorporate more gratitude, appreciation and awareness into our lives (hallelujah). Founded in the evolutionary practice of assessing our status in comparison with others, envy comes from the feeling of lacking something that someone else has. In what may have been an adaptive function for a cave person to secure their basic needs, our brains are not equipped for the intense comparison fed to us via social media. Dr Emily chats to Hugh, Ryan and Josh about the layered experience of envy, and how often, it stems from feeling not-enough or unworthy. Of course, Dr Emily brings the strategies. We explore how to work with envy in our own lives, and how to acknowledge it in the lives of our friends and family to protect important relationships. Dr Em, we’ll see you for the sequel on jealousy soon. To watch the full episode: https://youtu.be/B7acUnoekSc 0:00 – Envy vs Jealousy 9:08 – Keeping up with the Jones’ 8:16 – A message around ‘enoughness’ 25:12 – The energy of being a hater 36:50 – A deep longing for a difference experience 42:13 – On the flip side 52:45 - Acknowledge the hard 59:18 – The social emotion 1:07:18 – Working with envy 🫖Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode Dave Hughes - Me, Myself & Ego - https://bit.ly/4ua3mSP Hamish Blake - Let’s Talk About Self-Doubt - https://bit.ly/4fl7omR Dr Emily - Acceptance, That’s Radical - https://bit.ly/4ugEHwe 💻Things to check out Leon Festinger’s Social Comparison Theory - https://bit.ly/4npfIE5 📺Things to watch ‘Onesies’ Bluey episode - https://bit.ly/4eGTqLS 📖Things to read The Way We Are, by Hugh Mackay - https://bit.ly/4wsJuff Status Anxiety, by Alain de Botton - https://bit.ly/4tvbGeL 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here - http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Envy is that I am lacking something that you have. We actually view it as a bad emotion to have. And one that we often don't want to acknowledge or admit to.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  It feels so dirty and shameful.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  But you're both thinking of examples in your head.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Particularly when I go to Sydney, you know, like big houses and I'm like, God, this, how good would this be? But it's like, it doesn't actually align with what's important to me.

• 0:26Speaker 03

  When I'm in my own suburb, I feel pretty good. But then when I have to go across town to a nicer suburb, you start being confronted with like, oh, yeah, I'm not enough.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Dropping off at school and having to wait half an hour to a child settle while a pen is dropped and just turn around and go. I was so envious of that.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  To be clear, I am open to having one of those houses.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  When we compare, we will do one of two things. Admiration, if she can do it, so can I. Or I might feel angry towards them, I might feel bitter towards them. We will experience envy because we're all normal human beings. It's what we do with it that really matters. Quick, is anyone here a doctor?

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Yes, her name is Dr Emily and she's a psychologist. Please welcome to the Imperfects, our very own psychologist. Dr M, always the best day of the month, Dr M day.

• 1:25Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  That's okay.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, great.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Pleasure, absolute pleasure.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  You didn't really have a say in the song that your like theme song, we just assigned you a theme song. What, what theme song would you choose if you could choose any song to really encapsulate your energy, who you are to, to, to start her?

• 1:43Speaker 00

  Well.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Live in a little.

• 1:47Speaker 00

  I feel like it would be something very somber, which is not coming to my mind. I don't know. Yeah, I must say, when I asked ChatGPT about what, um, if I could be like a book character, what would I be? It came up with all, all of their suggestions were old English women.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Oh, like.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Like from like Jane Austen type things. Yep.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 2:07Speaker 00

  I was like, right, okay, I now, now know who I am.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  That's interesting. Wonder why?

• 2:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, serious, I feel.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Sincere?

• 2:17Speaker 00

  Maybe Ernest?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Wise.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Ernest, that's the word.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, wise.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, thanks.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, Em, it is so good to see you. And today, the topic that you are bringing is one that I can't see myself having anything to relate to at all. But I'm sure these boys will probably tap in. But I'm, um, there's not really, not really hitting any things for me. So you probably won't hear much from me today.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  But envy as a topic is, I genuinely can't wait.

• 2:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  We should have worn green t-shirts.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Alas, we did not.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  No, here we are.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  So, yes, I really would love to talk about this topic. Uh, and it's actually a huge one. It brings in a lot of things. But what I will do in a minute, I'll share a clip that I think kind of even just highlights a little bit of this. But really importantly, one of the biggest things that we want to do when we talk about envy is differentiate it from jealousy. So I'll do that perhaps after I played the clip.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Great, okay. So who's this, so who the clip is from?

• 3:27Speaker 00

  So this is with Dave Hughes.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Oh, Hughesy. I mean, one of the most legendary Australian stand-up comedians. Um, yeah, love Hughesy.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  So, I mean, he talks a little bit in that episode, actually, about envy, particularly professional envy. But in this particular clip, he's actually talking about like an admiration he has for his wife, Holly, um, and how she approaches, I guess, relationships in the world.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Great.

• 3:52Speaker 04

  And she said actually that when she was a teenager, she actually had the, she made the decision to be happy for her friend's success, which I did not make that decision when I was a teenager, not at all.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  How did she do that?

• 4:05Speaker 04

  I don't know, but she said she really did. And I can see that's true, that she, for whatever reason, she must have found some wisdom. Because if we're happy with other people's success, there's success all around us.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  It never stops.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  But it's really, and it's, it's sort of easy to, I find it easy to be happy for other people's success if it's completely, if it's something I could never do.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  Yes, I know, mate.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  But if it's something that I could do, I'm like, I am, I'm happy for you, but I'm kind of jealous or envious, or now I'm scared that I'm not going to get that. And what does that say about me?

• 4:40Speaker 04

  But that you are, and I am, and I've made the decision to be miserable for a long time. But we are making that decision. We don't have to make that decision. We actually can be happy because they won.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  It's such, it's such a good clip that, oh, not, not the bit where I talked about my envy, but the, the Husey, Husey's is, it was a very wise episode that in the end with Husey.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, but the first thing that comes to my mind is with envy, it's just us looking at his hair most of the episode, just thinking, what I wouldn't give.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  What I wouldn't give to be sitting underneath that.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  What a roof. What a beautiful roof you have, Husey.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Okay, Em, so yeah, what, what, what does that lead us to?

• 5:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, as I said, I think the first really important thing is that we understand what envy is. And for that, we need to understand what jealousy is. So to begin with, jealousy is an experience that we have between three parties. Envy is an experience we have between two. Let me explain this. So when we experience jealousy, in essence, we have, let's say, a partnership with one other person. And that relationship there is important to me. The third party comes in as the threat. Okay. So with jealousy at its core, it's the threat of loss, the threat of losing something I value. So jealousy can show up, obviously

• 6:14Speaker 00

  in terms of like our romantic partners, it's going to show up in sibling relationships, it's going to show up in lots of family dynamics. Any time where there's a threat to something, some relationship that we value, there is a vulnerability to experience jealousy when a third party arrives.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yes, okay. So it's like, for the obvious example, well, in relationships being you see your partner talking to another person. You're you're not envious, you're jealous.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  Jealous. Yes, you're jealous. We know that that jealousy is experienced actually by all most species or most mammals, particularly dogs are very good. They're very attuned to experiences of jealousy. So, I mean, I can talk about this at another time. But it really at its core, it's about there being this reaction to the fear that I will lose something. Envy is actually really different. Envy is that I am lacking something that you have.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  And so this exists between me and one other person. So I will experience a host of unpleasant emotions in the presence of viewing someone that I perceive as having something that I really want.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  That is envy.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  Now, we can experience both, like, for example, you could say that I am feeling jealous of my partner talking to this person. That's the threat there to my relationship. And I'm envious of their body.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Does that make sense?

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. So they have something that I want. They're also threatening my relationship. So we have jealousy and envy in the same experience.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  The cornella.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yep. So that's really, really important that we distinguish it because like any emotion, envy is information. And so we need to tune in to envy to understand what it's telling us.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  That's awesome. That is great.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Because if we think it's jealousy, then we have a whole different pathway.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  So to begin with, we really have to tune in to understand that envy is that I want something that you have. Okay. Now, what sits at the the core of envy is an evolutionary basis, much like all of our emotions. There's some sort of adaptive function to the experience or the emotion of envy. So envy in essence is like a status checker.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  And it's, it involves an attunement to the people that are around me to determine my um safety, my worth, uh my standing in a group. So from a cave person point of view, you might see, let's just say, another cave person getting more food. Now, envy in that situation is really adaptive because it's saying, I want what you have. And in fact, I need what you have.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  So there is actually a really important function because when we understand that this is a signal to an unmet need, then we can look at how we go about meeting that need.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. The huge problem that we encounter in the modern world is that we are no longer exposed to an immediate comparison of our tribe. We are now exposed through social media, the news, technology, we are exposed to a million different targets of comparison, and we're flooded with it all the time.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Hmm. Is that, is that bad?

• 9:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I knew, I knew we'd find a flaw with social media.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I look, I'll explain why that has become so much more overwhelming. But just to start with, our brains just haven't evolved to cope with that level of comparison.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  One of the, I think, really important ways to understand envy is to look at what's called social comparison theory.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 10:24Speaker 00

  And it was developed by Leon Festinger in the 1950s, and it's still immensely, I think immensely applicable and relevant. And he identified that at any given moment in our social groups, we are engaging, obviously, in evaluation. And the only way we can work out our standing is to compare ourselves to other people. And we can do one of two things. We can upwardly compare. So that's called upward comparison. So upward comparison is when I compare myself to people that I perceive as superior to me in some way.

• 11:04Speaker 00

  That's, I'm looking up at them. Okay. We also have downward comparison, where we evaluate ourselves in comparison to people that we perceive as less superior to us.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  Once we have that, we then, what matters is how we relate to that comparison. And again, we will do one of two things. When we compare upwardly or downwardly?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Downwardly.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Downwardly.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  We will either assimilate or contrast. I'm going to explain this. So if we say, let's take the example of me comparing myself to, I don't know, another psychologist.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  And perhaps I see that they're doing this incredible job. And I might notice like a pang of envy, right? Like, I wish I was, you know, I wish I got to do what they're doing.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  With that, I'm upwardly comparing. So it's upward comparison. And then this is the real key that determines actually how well we live with this feeling. Is I can either assimilate to that comparison. And what that means is I step into admiration and I step into if she can do it, so can I? I step into that's my model for where I want to go.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  That's called assimilation.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Or I can move into contrast. And contrast is she's got there, there's no hope for me, there's no way I can get there. And now I feel really resentful. I might feel angry towards them, I might feel bitter towards them. I might feel in essence that my self-worth is really under attack here.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  And what we tend to do is upward comparison with contrast.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  So we compare ourselves to people that we think have more than us or something that we want. And then we say, I'm not good enough because I can't do that.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  It's kind of like the, the classic version is the Keeping Up With The Joneses.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Sort of idea.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  I heard the other day that um some research done around if your next door neighbour wins Taz Lotto, there's a like a massively increased likelihood that you will go broke apparently.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Hmm, I'll have to try and keep up.

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, wow, that makes sense.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  But I guess that that but like the next door neighbour theory, I guess from what Emma's saying is like that could apply. Doesn't have to be next door neighbour now.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Cause like we're seeing people on social media more than we're seeing a next door neighbours.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  So it's actually really complicated, a complicated experience. And there's, there's a lot of theory that exists around it. Um, but I will really acknowledge that it's the part of the trouble with envy is that we, we actually view it as a bad emotion to have. And one that we often don't want to acknowledge or admit to.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Hmm, it feels so dirty and shameful.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I don't want to tell them that I'm envious of your work achievements. It's kind of like, what's that going to say about me?

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  But then, if we know everything that we know about emotion is that if we don't acknowledge that it's here, if we suppress it, avoid it, deny its existence, that is actually going to make our experience so much worse.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  But yet we all, we all like, it's a really hard thing to admit to feeling envious.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Hmm, why is that?

• 14:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, what do you think it says? So?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Because even just thinking about times I've, I, I, I've got butterflies in my stomach even just thinking about it. I haven't even got a solid example, but like, well, I guess I do, but it's just like, generally speaking, thinking about times where I'm envious and can sort of step outside of myself and see myself not behaving in the way I wish I was and like being like, yeah, resentful or playing it down or not referencing the incredible thing this person's just done. It feels gross and dirty, but I can't get myself out of it. I can't shift it.

• 15:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  I think it's because it reveals it's me confronting that I'm not good enough.

• 15:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. And then it's also, it feels also.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  I know that logically I should be happy for other people's success and it feels like I'm not, not aligned with my values as a person to be at all resentful or unhappy for people who have had success.

• 15:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So again, we kind of get two layers of experience here. The first is the envy. So this pang here, and there's lots of stuff to pack, unpack about.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Are you both, sorry, but are you both thinking of examples in your head of?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, well, the example I'm thinking about, I've talked about too much on the podcast, but it's just like growing up when I was, when Hamish, my friend from high school was doing a lot better than I was in the industry that we were both trying to be successful in. And I was just envious of not being, not able to be happy for him.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, mine's actually kind of, I'm a bit ashamed of what it is because I, I hate that I care about this, but mine, I think is like somewhat like money and house and focused.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Of thinking of people who have, have it all seemingly in that way. And it's actually interesting when you brought up the social media thing, I, I realise also that because we tend to live, generally speaking, in the suburb that is, is sort of our socio-economic bracket, when I'm in my own suburb, I feel pretty good.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  But then when I have to go across town to a nicer suburb, you start being confronted with like, oh, yeah, I'm not enough. Cause I don't have all this stuff, but when you're in your own geographic bubble, for me anyway, I don't feel the envy anymore because I'm, it's like, I'm with my people.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  I, I get that all the time. Yeah. Particularly when I go to Sydney, I like, you know, like big houses and I'm like, God, this, this, how good would this be? It's like, okay. And then I genuinely start thinking, okay, what do I need to do? Like what changes I need to make? I'm completely unlike, my values are like hours behind me. I'm like just veering into like this, I'm such an unknown area. Like I want, I want that, I just want it.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  But that, I mean, that's interesting because that's actually an example there of upward comparison with assimilation because it's actually, it's pointing to, um.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  A movement towards that thing rather than a movement away. So the away is like the sadness, the

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get that as well.

• 18:04Speaker 00

  Depression, like, yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  But in that moment there where you say, um, oh, what can I do? Like, that's, that's a different experience of envy. Like, I want this. And so

• 18:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  Then we look at action towards it.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, that makes sense. And this might not help what you're saying.

• 18:19Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  But I think what then happens, and like, I'll get like down about life and myself and everything and the impossibility of reaching those places. And, and then after speaking with Jam about it, it's like, I remember, I remember that it's like, actually, I don't, I mean, of course I would take one of those houses if they were given to me. But it's like, it doesn't actually align with what's important to me.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Like, I don't need that.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  And it's, once I realize that, then it's sort of, that's my path back to, you know, not being so anxious.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  I think I'm the same, exactly the same as you, but I feel shame that I care. Cause it's not aligned with my, I know it's not aligned with my values. Cause I've chosen, I only know one way to live.

• 18:59Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  And it's roughly in accordance with my values.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 19:03Speaker 03

  Prioritizing making money and having a big house is not one of them. But then I feel shame that when confronted with it, I'm like,

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 03

  Ah, I feel not enough.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. But to, to, to be clear, I, I am open to having one of those houses. If they're, if they're being handed out at all, like, I don't want to not be on the list. So just saying that.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  But I, you know, I think, Josh, what you've said a couple of times is actually for a lot of people. It's not always, but it is for a lot. It shows up in therapy all the time. Is that this envy is not necessarily signaling that I, I want a big house. This is a message around enoughness.

• 19:41Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  And it's actually often signaling like a history of feeling not enough.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  And when we feel not enough, a number of things can happen. So, um, for example, if we feel enough, we can move into competition.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  So if we have like a scarcity mindset where there isn't enough to go around, there isn't enough attention, love, nurturing, um, resources, then I'm going to become naturally really competitive. Because if I win, then I get the resources.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  If I win, then I'm enough.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  The, the version of that that I've sort of like, I'm right in the thick of kind of working through in my, with my psychologist is this like lifelong want that I've had. And this just is absolutely is an example of it, is this want to have what he calls it.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Like sort of to be special and having the big house in Sydney.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  It, it sort of like communicates that, oh, you're special. You have it.

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  And it's, it's, I don't like, I don't want to want to have it, but I do want to have it. If you know what I mean.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  I think I want to have it and not care about it.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, of course. That's the dream. And not realise you've got it.

• 20:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's okay.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  All good. I'm just too, I'm too busy spending time with people I love.

• 21:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  I'm too busy connecting, brah. Are you worried about what house you got? Fuck, I used to do that and not anymore.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  So I guess, I, I guess I really want to emphasise that envy is kind of like the tip of the iceberg. Um, and we really want to uncover what it's signalling. And, you know, again, for a lot of people, it can really signal a much deeper felt sense that I am not good enough. And that's the place, like in therapy, that's the place we want to go to. Envy is just telling us that it's here.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  And then we can work with that in a different way. But envy can be, as we know, really destructive. Um, one of the ways in which envy can show up is actually through the reactions to the feeling, most obviously. So if we feel envious of people around us, it can result in a number of different kinds of behaviours. One of them can be that I now withdraw myself. So I don't want to be around that person because it just reminds me what I don't have. So that's the first thing. So we withdraw. The second thing is that it might show up as, um, even like passive aggressive comments. Um, it might show up as bitterness in an interaction.

• 22:22Speaker 00

  Um, it might, you know, really in essence, it's kind of looking like a coolness in this relationship that actually might be important to me.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  So for example, if you're experiencing, you know, some kind of challenge in your own life, and I say this, you know, with, with a deep felt sense of compassion here. If like hypothetically, you're struggling with grief or you're struggling with, maybe, maybe you're going through IVF, then going to a kid's birthday party is going to trigger a whole host of very painful feelings. And one of them might be envy because they have what I so deeply yearn for here. And so to cope with that very confronting and distressing feeling, I may stop going to these sorts of things. And that helps me, it kind of feels protective.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  But it also means that my life becomes smaller.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  And it also means that I can't now go to a whole range of things that perhaps in the past were really important to me. So that's, that's not an uncommon experience.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  It also feels remiss of me to not take the opportunity to mention a Bluey episode, which I think onesies speaks to this perfectly.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  Excellent. So the other thing is that we can see how it can show up in passive aggressive comments. Or gossiping.

• 23:53Speaker 00

  Or in its worst form, you know, we can see how this turns into trolling and really very harmful behaviours.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. And when you say trolling, do you mean like, because I think of trolling as like, you know, attacking someone you don't know, but trolling can be like bullying people you you do know, like that in your life.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  Yes, it can. Yeah, yeah, and it can. I think in this context, for me, what stands out and what what feels so obvious to me. Or in many cases of online trolling, for example, particularly people that you don't know, is that you see someone that has all of these things, right? And that makes you feel like shit. And so what we do when we notice that is in order to feel better about myself, I bring them down.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  So we devalue them. And that might look like online comments or like, you might have this house, but you're you're a blah, blah, blah. Or I bet, you know, she might have this body, but I bet she's not a nice person.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  Um. So what we do, what we engage in is in an attempt to make us feel better about ourselves, is that we devalue and bring someone down. So that they are now no longer um better than us. Does that make sense?

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  I remember a long, long time ago, I read a book by, I think it's Hugh Mackay. Is it, do you know him? Hugh Mackay, I think he's, anyway, but the I think the first chapter, because I didn't think I got to the end of the book. I've read a lot of first chapters. But I think it was about like, something around along the lines of in every single situation we're in as humans, we're always assessing, are we higher status or lower status?

• 25:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  And we react accordingly, because we're always wanting to be the high, if we're low status, whatever, we just need to do whatever we can to get the high status.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Yep, yeah, that's exactly it. We are social creatures that are constantly assessing status.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  And that, again, it's built into our genes that we have an imperative to be as high as possible. That's the place that secures, um, it secures our gene proliferation. It means that we have all the resources. It means we have the attention and love of our other cave people, for example. So there is a biological imperative in some ways to be checking for our status constantly and then to make an effort to look after ourselves in the best way possible when we understand what our status is.

• 26:16Speaker 03

  When you were talking about trolling and you did a, for anyone listening, you kind of did a good visual of your one hand being higher than the other and sort of pulling the person down to your level. But in my mind, and I don't know if this is true, you're doing it in a way to pull the person that you perceive as higher down to your level. So you're on an equal playing field. But it feels like in doing it, you're pulling yourself down as well. And so you'll never actually be on the same playing field.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, yes, absolutely. Um, it's not necessarily a conscious awareness that that is, that is the case. We often will think about, you know, with the experience of envy, again, like how much energy goes into, first of all, having this struggle with this feeling and then also obsessing and ruminating about what this person has that you don't have. So much energy goes into that. And again, what that does is actually misses, it misses the key part of this and that's that there is a pain here. But that's really difficult to go to the painful part, right? So it's actually easier to stay in anger and resentment than it is to come to grief or loss or, um, you know, a sense

• 27:25Speaker 00

  of abandonment, for example. Um, so yeah, when we get hooked into like hating someone and like, you know, pulling them down in your mind or gossiping about them, that actually is keeping all of your energy focused on that person and actually taking you away from living a life that might actually genuinely be on track with all of your values.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  So it's a, it's a really tricky thing and I, I really deeply want to emphasize how normal it is that we will experience envy because we're all normal human beings. And we have to start there by normalizing, it's okay that this feeling is here. It's what we do with it that really matters.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause it's like, we all, we all know the person and you might be the person, but we all know the person in our life who was just like always happy for everyone. And, and it's like, and I always think like, I love those people. And it's like, God, I'd love, like, that's who I want to be. And it's, it's just amazing when you come across those people who are just like unconditionally, genuine, authentically like excited for other people when they do something great. Um, and it's, it's, it feels rare to meet those people, um, at least who are so outwardly obvious about it. But, um, yeah, I guess that when I say that, I'm like, God, that's, that's, that's who I want to be.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  Hmm. I, I have an experience this morning. I think that, I think this is, I hadn't looked at it as envy before, but I think it's applicable. I have to drop off my youngest at childcare. And to do that, there's an option. I either ride the bike and put him on the back of the bike and drop him off and then I ride into work, or I drive and drop him with the car. My wife needed our nicer car today. And so then there was only the other car, which is like nearly 20 years old.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  It was grandpa's car.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  It was that grandpa's car. Yeah, it is, it's not a cool, nice car. It's an old bit of a bomb. And he, and I said, which, um, which one do you want? And he's, do you want to ride? Or he's like, no, I want to go in the car. And I was like, oh no, that means I've got to drive it into the office. And below our building where we are, when I parked the car, there are so many really nice cars down there, very rich, just like very, very nice cars. And my immediate thought was, oh, that means I've got to go in there and drive in there. And if someone else is getting out of their car and I'm getting out of this, I'm going to feel really ashamed. And then I, so, but I, but he wanted to go in the car. So I'm like, all right,

• 30:01Speaker 03

  I couldn't convince him to go on the bike. So I dropped him at childcare. And then immediately I was like, this car is really dirty. I'm going to have to clean this car on the way to work, but I'm already going to be late. And then the whole way there, I was like looking, I was sort of trying to think of where, where are their car washes on the way that won't take too long? Could I go to that one? And then I started to have this internal battle of like, It's gonna make you 20 minutes late to work. You're already 10 minutes late. It'll make you another 20, 20. And then you're letting down people at work. Like, where's your priorities here? And then I thought of someone in my life who I know and respect so much and see as just have so much love and admiration for professionally and personally. And they drive a bomb, even though they don't really have to.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:47Speaker 03

  And, and I thought, well, if they could turn up at a thing in their bomb, so can I.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  And I turned up and then really, and luckily no one was, and I like almost got out of the car quickly and ran away from it in the car park and then started walking.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  Cause I still am not confident enough to pull that off.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  So why you showed up in the full disguise with the wig on?

• 31:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, but so much of my morning this morning was, was controlled by this whole journey of like, how do I navigate this situation?

• 31:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  And I think it all comes from envy and a lack of self-worth.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  It's, it's really hard. I can hear, you know, here and there, the, again, the energy. Um, and if we zoom out and have a look at how that might be, you know, for anyone, when we get really hooked into those stories, like how much of life is spent zoomed in on that? And what does that mean then for the, the rest of my day or my world? Like, where do I put the energy there? Or what do I even notice is happening? Um, it's, it's such a hard thing. And it's so, it is so understandable that these experiences arise.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  So I drove into the car park after you and I saw your car and my first thought I saw was like, that is just awesome. Like, it's just to me, so much character and so much like, everyone else's cars are just like stupid and yours has got so much character. And I just, I not for a second would go like, hmm, that's not as expensive as our cars. I'd just see that and go, that is awesome. That's my first thought.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, I wish I was there, but I'm not. I wish I was like, who cares? But I'm not.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think that's, that's the question that shows up for me is the caring part.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  So what would it say about you? Like, what is this car? Having this car, what does that say about you?

• 32:31Speaker 03

  I think it's that an idea I have in my head that someone of my age should have their life together enough to not have to drive an old car and have a dirty car as well. The combo, I think the cleanliness is trying to get it up a level of like, well, at least they take care of it. And the idea of it being like dirty and old, it's like this person doesn't have their life together.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  You know, you know, you know, you could do, you could get some of those heritage plates and put it on.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  That's good.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Then it's like, oh, he's choosing it. Good. It's like, it's like there's a pride in the heritage plate.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  I think what you said in there though is, is really spot on and so round enoughness that, that I'm not where I should be. This is the story. I'm not where I should be. I should be there. Um, and so this is kind of this, again, this social comparison experience that I'm not there. And I feel really awful about it. Um, and it might make you feel less than, or it might make you feel unworthy. Um, and that, from that place, it can feel really immobilizing. Like, and, and for some people, it can cause us to feel a sense of hopelessness or helplessness that I'll never get there. And then that opens the door to like, what's wrong with me? Why can't I do this?

• 33:56Speaker 00

  And you can see the spiral of, of negative rumination and, and there's so much suffering that, that occurs in there. So what on the surface seems like, I wanna have a nice car, actually represents a much deeper, broader sense of worthiness.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  That actually really almost like needs an honoring or like a, an honoring and a tuning into.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  Because when we do that, I'm curious about what happens then to how I relate to the person that has the thing.

• 34:28Speaker 03

  Hmm. Are you asking a question?

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, like I have some thoughts about it, but I'm, I'm just curious. Like if I know that this experience here is actually about my worthiness and not about hating you or not liking you, does that change how I wanna relate to that person? If I know that you having this thing is actually really revealing to me a deeper pain for me rather than a bitterness, does that make sense?

• 34:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, it does. I mean, in this case, for me, it just highlights that I don't actually want that thing. Like, I don't want a really fancy car.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, that's the first thing that comes to mind. Like, I'm glad, I'm glad you want it, but I don't really want that.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  It seems like when you declutter what this is, it's not about the thing.

• 35:18Speaker 03

  No, it's, it definitely isn't.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Um, and actually, when you do declutter, it sounds like you can recognize, like, oh, I can let that go, because that's actually not important to me.

• 35:29Speaker 03

  Hmm. It's more, I know very much it's about what I'm lacking and not about what they have.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's a sign of me not being where I imagined or hoped or think a person Yeah. who's got their life together should be.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I like, I should at least have the, it should, should at least be clean, you know?

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think that's such an example, Josh, of, of actually how envy shows up. And that is that it is about a lack, a sense of lacking.

• 35:56Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Um, and how hard that is when we get exposed to that feeling.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  Um, and it can, you know, when it's, when we're not listening to it in a really wise and helpful way, it can make our life feel very narrow. Um, it can impact our relationships. It can mean that I'm gonna show up, um, like in a really, I don't know, like maybe if we're not paying attention, maybe it shows up as like I'm really irritable and snappy with people.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, like remembering how I was, because I know I was like, kind of like, sort of joking when you were talking about it, Josh, but I, just to say that, like, when I, when I have those feelings, it's, it is like I, it is really, and afterwards, like now, I think, it's like I don't, I don't recognize that person.

• 36:46Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  Like when I was in there and I'm like feeling like the, that, that deep envy for the people in my life who have the really, you know, beautiful homes.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  It's like, it's silly to say, I realise it's so silly to say now, like with a rational brain, because it's like, I have a fine house, like it's not, but it's amazing how blind you can get in those moments and how like just shit you feel about yourself. It's really, it's, it's, it's so strange because I do not relate to that person.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  But I know I can easily drop into that person at any point.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  Well, it's much easier to drop into that person, I think, when, for me, when, which talks exactly to what you're talking about, but when I'm already feeling pretty low, or when I'm already feeling in a not great place, then the not enoughness comes through and the envy is much stronger. But when, when things are, for whatever reason, I'm feeling really good and on top of things and just thriving, the envy goes away almost completely.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I really don't care anymore.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  We can relate to it very differently.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  I feel like I've been mostly quiet this episode because I was literally thinking, I don't, can't think of something that I experienced envy with in my life. And I don't feel like it much at the moment, but I was looking back, parenting a child on the spectrum.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  I mean, the envy I felt of other parents until radical acceptance knocked on my door and marched in. And I don't have it anymore, but for a long time.

• 38:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Anywhere I went with those other parents, so dropping off at school and having to wait half an hour to your child settle while the parents would drop and just turn around and go, I couldn't, I was so envious of that.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Going to a park and seeing parents just chatting to each other, not having to keep an eye on their kids to make sure. So much envy for that. Going to a place, being able to sit down, have a coffee and just mind your own business as opposed to following your child everywhere. And then having to be ready to get them out of your time, dropping off at a, seeing parents drop their kids off at a party and just going, that would just be unbelievable. But instead we're staying the whole time and we're probably going to go soon.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Hearing, yeah, I've been asleep, like neurodiverse kids, especially autistic kids don't sleep properly. So hearing other parents going, yeah, kids are sleeping fine. So many points of envy and it, and it made me irrationally. Um annoyed at other parents who have done nothing wrong, other than just living their life.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Irritated by them, I'm sure.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  So irritated, um and supporters definitely put a wedge in some of my friendships. I didn't say anything, I didn't. But there are certain friends, I just went, I don't want to bear on that person.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  And they didn't do anything wrong. They just, their life was so easy, it

• 39:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Really fucked me up.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I, yeah, and I think that's.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Sorry, no, I'll say it again.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  It's passionate. Yeah, and that's, I think that's true. Of course it did. You know, like, of course it did. And I think, you know, when it comes to this experience here, it's always, again, highlighting an unmet need of some kind. And so in this instance, it may not be enoughness, it may be like the, the need for rest or ease, for example. Um. And so when we talk about envy, it's obviously not just of material things. Envy can show up in a number of different ways. Like, I'm envious of the ease with which you can live your life.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Um. I'm envious of your time off. I'm envious of your relationship. So not jealous, envious. So I'm envious of the healthy relationship that you have, for example. I'm envious that you have these friendships. I'm envious of how you cope with things.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  So it doesn't have to be just, and in fact, more importantly, to be honest, it's not about material things. This is really around the sense that I'm, I'm really deeply yearning for something and I can't get it. And so here in your example, like it just, it's almost like it activates and triggers this deep longing for ease.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Um, and that.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  I mean, so they're just the perfect, I just thought the perfect example of how I can get in the way of friendships and the issues we can cause. I was having dinner like two years ago, maybe three years ago now, right in the thick of when it was really tough for us with, um, two of our very good friends, Reid and Goon.

• 41:06Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  And Reid was about to have a baby, hadn't had a kid yet, and both Bren and I had, um, two or three. And, um, Reid said to us, anyway, well, it's a couple of weeks away. What am I in for? And we sort of laughed and then. Goon said, no, seriously, man, it's the greatest and happiest thing you'll ever experience. It's the best thing you'll ever experience. And I paused for a minute and I said, well, not for everyone. And they both looked a bit like, yep, okay. And I said, no, but seriously, it's not for everyone. And then I, I wouldn't let it go. And Goon said, yeah, but I mean, there's so many incredible moments. Cause Reid's about to have his first child and Goon, yeah, okay. But Reid lost look forward to it. And I went, well, you don't know that. I'm just saying it's not easy for everyone. And I wouldn't let it go. I rang him in for five minutes saying, all the challenges, all the incredible, all

• 41:52Speaker 02

  the impossible bits, all the bits have been so painful for us. And every time Goon, very rightly tried to say, yeah, but we're excited for Reid. And there's so much that Reid's going, yeah, but you don't know that.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Shut up, Goon. It's shit.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  You can't say that. You cannot say. I haven't seen them since. I haven't been invited. We haven't caught up since. Part of me is just so embarrassed for the way I carried on. But also, I'm sure they've caught up. Since I've no doubt they have. And I haven't got an invite because why would you, like, it was, I just, like, Reid's about to have his first child and I spent five minutes saying how bad it was.

• 42:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  So that's a good example for you.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  The old Negative Nellie approach.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I think that is a really, I think, I think it's really honest. And I think it's really great that you shared that actually, because I think that that is not an uncommon experience, really. And I think it'll speak to a lot of people that when, when we experience that, that it makes us feel or act in a bitter way, like, because I feel, because I'm, there's such an unmet need here of some kind. And I don't feel like I've got the resources to meet it. And so that then kind of pulls you into this like helplessness or hopelessness experience. And so I, you know, really deeply want to honour how absolutely valid the arrival of this feeling is. But we have to catch it

• 43:10Speaker 00

  because it can be, it can be corrosive. It can mean that we create distance. I, I'm also kind of wondering on the flip side, um, what it's like for the recipient of someone that is, uh, the person with the thing.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Should we call Goon?

• 43:32Speaker 02

  I love to call them.

• 43:36Speaker 00

  So, you know, what is it like to maybe have something that you're proud of? And you're also really aware that your friend, for example, um,

• 43:48Speaker 00

  feels unhappy about it.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Extremely uncomfortable, I will say that.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  For me personally, I've felt it a bit and I I just feel uncomfortable. I'm just like, I don't.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  For example, with my car, I I think I have a niceish car. I try to make it dirty. I don't, I like it being dirty because I I try to

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Knock the chain off it.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Downplay it as much as possible because it's like, it's a nice car. And when it's dirty, that feels better to me because I'm uncomfortable with it. And I think, you know, I I started a business with the pure thing of just wanting to go and do talks at schools. And by chance, what I was doing went well and it got quite big. And the person who invents a thing that gets quite big often does quite well from it. And it's just, it is so uncomfortable at so many points.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, wow, I can imagine.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  And I so often will, some of the decisions we've made around big decisions with things we will buy has has always been about like comfort for our kids and looking after them. But it also presents

• 44:55Speaker 02

  um, in a way that is not consistent with what Penny and I value. But like, I'm like, well, I don't care. I want my kids to be comfortable with certain elements of their life because we've got different needs to other people. But God, it's uncomfortable so often. And even now, I've just caught myself trying to justify why I would buy nice things occasionally just to and a lot of that is true, but also that it just feels very uncomfortable and yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it is. It is really hard and.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  It's it's tricky because there might be, actually, it might be a relationship that is really important to us, where we feel this sense of coldness. Um, and it can feel like a bit of a rejection, actually. Um, when you're, maybe your best mate is finding it really hard to be happy for you.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Um, for something that you've done or or that you're doing. Um, and that can feel really, really difficult.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Horrible. And it's all, and also I imagine the person, and I, you know, we we all would have done this at certain points, no matter what.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Status we're all at, but it's, yeah, playing down the achievement.

• 46:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  We just got or the thing we just did because we know it will.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  It will niggled at the person who also wants the same thing. And so instead of, instead of coming, you know, getting over to their house and going like, can you believe I just got this great thing? That would happen all the time in any industry, but it's, it's like, it's, it's playing it down.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Not being able to like, appear happy.

• 46:29Speaker 00

  Embrace the.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Embrace the excitement, yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  I mean, I think like on the one hand, I think that's also really being sensitive. You know, really being sensitive to other people's experiences. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but if this is a repeated experience, like if you find that there's a friendship, for example, um, or even a relationship with a sibling where this is a consistent pattern that I have to downplay every part of my life.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  Um, or I have to hide things or I can't be my authentic self, like I can't bring a joyfulness. Like, I'll share with you something the other day. I have, I have this great friend who um, is kind of in a similar industry to me. And I just know that she would be happy for me with whatever was arising. And I feel like I can truly express my joyfulness at something that might have happened.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  And that is so precious. Like, it's so precious, but it also, it also um, is hard to do. You know, like, it's really hard to do. And so there might be times when it's, you know, that's not going to happen. But I think, you know, my, my genuine point here is that if there, you find yourself in a relationship where this is happening all the time, then I'd have to really question how the relationship is serving you. You know, if you have to hide parts of yourself. Is that you're living by your values in this relationship? I'm not sure.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Would it, would it ever be worth um talking to the per, if it's happening regularly? Would it be worth talking to them about it?

• 47:59Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think this is part of the process of working with envy on both sides. And that is that, you know, is, is kind of calling it out in a really respectful and genuine way. So it might be something like, I don't know, um Jenny, I, I don't know if this is just me, but um I've kind of had a sense of a bit of distance between us. Um, I really value our relationship. I like, am I off track here? And so this is kind of like an invitation here to see what's happening.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  It's a big step for Jenny to say I'm envious.

• 48:31Speaker 00

  It is, it is a big step, but it may not have to be that word in particular.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  But it, but that's, that's such a good way to go about it as opposed to coming out and going like, which sounds more accusational, confrontational, which is like, I'm just getting a sense that you're really envious of where I'm at.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Like, that's not gonna go great.

• 48:52Speaker 00

  No, it's not. Or conversely, that we actually.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  You should be.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  Is that we actually withdraw ourselves from the relationship. That's what often happens is that like, I actually don't want to be around this person because I can't be myself.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:03Speaker 00

  Um.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Can I ask you about that person who is really good with your sharing stuff?

• 49:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Are they quite successful? Like, have they done really well?

• 49:11Speaker 00

  I mean, I, I guess it depends how you define really well. I.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  In their mind, would they define that they've done really well? Because I find.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  People who feel like they've done really well.

• 49:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Are much better at not.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  No, she's, she's early in her career.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I, yeah, she is a wonderful person.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  You call them bullshit, do you?

• 49:31Speaker 00

  No, she's not, no, quite frankly, it's not because she's like way down the path than me.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Um, it's genuinely, I think, that she's, um, it's probably to do with worthiness, that I, that there's an enoughness there. So the enoughness can contain other people doing well.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  That's what it is, isn't it? That's, I was looking at the output of like a success, but what it feeds, it's like the feeling that I'm enough. So.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  The baseline of enough.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  No matter what they do, it doesn't take away from how I feel about myself. Like, that's what it comes down to a lot of times. It's just like self belief.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah. And that, that like, again, I'm exactly enough as I am. And your achievements actually doesn't, doesn't change that at all.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's really big.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, this feels difficult to talk about, um, but I'll try. But I, I found that like with the success of this show and, um, over the last six and six or seven years, um.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Kids all around the country going bananas right now. For all the kids listening to the end of the episode. Six, seven years.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Um, that, uh, I've found it a really interesting experience.

• 50:51Speaker 03

  In that I think prior to this, I played a role in certainly in some relationships where I was a, for want of a better term, and I hope it's okay, I think it's okay to say this about yourself. A bit of a perpetual loser. In a lot of situations and that I had relationships that worked under that premise. And that since we've had all this amazing success and, and things have been going well. It's been really interesting to see, um, some relationships and it's difficult to talk about because of they're, you know, they're real people, but I can think of one or two in particular that I feel like don't work as well now that I have success.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  That's so interesting.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  And there's a coldness there that I didn't feel beforehand. It's like I'm not playing that role that I used to play. In that relationship.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  It's like you've, it's like you've broken the contract, the unspoken contract.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  And I enjoy, and I enjoyed their position in that hierarchy of the friendship.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  I think so, yeah. I could be wrong. Maybe I've become, maybe I'm just a different, maybe we're just different people and we've just grown apart.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  You have become a bit of an asshole.

• 52:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. But then conversely, I've been, it's been so amazing. And I think of some friends and. Like some really good friends who have just been so happy for me to see success. There was one friend that came to our live show and cried. And he told me afterwards that, and his wife said, it's like the first time they've been together for like 15 years. She said, cried twice. And one of it was because he was just like so happy that I saw myself the way that he always has.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 52:34Speaker 03

  And it was one of the most special things anyone's ever said to me. And then another friend who flew up to Sydney to watch us at the Opera House and was just so proud. And it's been a really interesting experience, the, the way that that's tracked. And I'm not saying that I like need my friends to tell me, you know, well done. Sometimes the best friends are the ones that you don't get that from at all, but you just know that they're in your camp.

• 52:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 03

  But it's been a interesting experience.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  It's the way that plays out.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  That is incredible story. It's so beautiful.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  But that whole reflection, insight on that is incredible because I think that, that's where I can see it resonate with my life. It's like friendships and with success and, and it really shines a light on the bloody good people is what I've found. Like, and it's, you need to, I find it focus on that, not the people who have dropped away and aren't as comfortable. Or for whatever reason, it's like, look for holes in what you're doing or trying to take the piss out of what you're doing. But yeah, you can get down about that, but it's, you may as well just focus on the people.

• 53:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  Cause there's some really good people who are like, they genuinely wanted the best for me all along. And this is proof. And that is so amazing.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  That is absolutely amazing.

• 53:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:53Speaker 00

  I do want to add one thing to that though, and that is that, um.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  You disagree or?

• 53:58Speaker 00

  What if that, what if it, in that example of like focusing on the people that can show up with excitement? What if it, for the other people, it's actually not about you?

• 54:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  What if it's actually about their, like again, their sense of not feeling enough?

• 54:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  And that, that shows up as coldness or passive aggressive or digs. Or what if we look underneath those behaviours and actually question like? Oh, like, that's a them thing.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  And what does that mean?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  I was thinking, I was thinking a really similar thing, not I was gonna, wasn't gonna say it in that way, but I was gonna, but it's like, when I think about my example of the envy I brought up earlier with, you know, Hamish in my like twenties, thirties. It's like, he, I know that he would have been looking like he would have, well, I've spoken to him about it, obviously. So I, I know that he, he noticed that I wasn't celebrating him, but I've got no doubt that he was just able to look at me with compassion and understand why.

• 54:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Even though it wasn't, it wasn't ideal.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  But he was probably, I haven't actually asked him this, but I'm assuming he was able to understand and, and, and not get annoyed and not, you know, not ruin the friendship.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  And not move away from you.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Not move away.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Exactly. Because, because, because he could, it's pretty, you know, probably pretty obvious if you actually take the time to think about it.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  But the fact that he did.

• 55:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Means that we're still best friends.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, this is a huge, this is a huge challenge on both ends, right? Um, but, you know, for, for all of us, in some ways, it's this communication. Um, that what would it be like to express, um, you know, I think about some of the really, like the examples that come across, like that come up all the time, like struggling to have kids, going through, I don't know, going through a divorce, um, experiencing grief, like these really normal parts of life. Envy is going to show up in those experiences because we've either lost something that we wanted, uh, or we can't get what we have. Um, and, you know, in that space, if we're able to communicate to others that I'm actually having a really

• 56:09Speaker 00

  hard time, that I think is a really important step.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 56:14Speaker 00

  So when I think about, you know, maybe someone going through infertility,

• 56:19Speaker 00

  it might be the friend saying, um, you know, Em.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  You know, I've been thinking about you. Um, with me having a, my one year old birthday party. I've been thinking about you here and I don't know if you're experienced, but I gather this might be really hard. So we're kind of like really empathizing with the struggle that might be present for someone there. And letting them know that I see you. Because that's a, an experience that is often felt in envy is this sense of. People aren't seeing how hard this is for me. And so if you can open the door to someone that you think might be possibly having a difficult time. Maybe they've withdrawn more, they're not coming to things.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  You know, is this, is there an invitation here to say, I could be on the wrong page here, but you know. It, it, for me, it would probably feel really difficult coming to my one year old's party.

• 57:15Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 57:16Speaker 00

  Um, I love you. Um, is there something that we can do instead? Or, you know, how do we hold on to this relationship so that envy doesn't actually get in the way? Does that make sense?

• 57:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Healthier than my, what I was thinking was just ditch them and focus on them.

• 57:32Speaker 00

  No, listen, like if it's a repeated pattern and they're actually not being nice people, of course you have a choice.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  No, but the, the visual I have in my head, because there's been a bit of like. Um, like talking about the hierarchy of friendships or whatever, even in that situation. If you're feeling that it could be envy there.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Because of something like you just said, the visual I have in my head is like reaching your hand down to pick them up and bring them with you. Like, I think that's.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Kind of what I'm picturing there. And it's such a lovely, that's such a lovely example of.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Um, if you feel that somewhere in your life, it's not about you.

• 58:04Speaker 00

  Yes, this is not about you.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  What are they going through?

• 58:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  What can I do?

• 58:08Speaker 00

  And can I, can I, you know, this need that we all have to feel like we matter. Uh, and we, we matter by being seen, right? Um, so when I say to you, God, like I, I don't know what this is like for you, but I can imagine it would be really hard to show up to this. I just want you to know that I'm here for you in some way. If you don't want to come, I totally get it, but can we do something else?

• 58:32Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 58:33Speaker 00

  It's like holding and, holding this relationship here because it's valuable and important. And also naming that I can see this is hard. Like we all want that, I think.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  It's also, it feels like, uh, to state the obvious, but the, looking at it from the other point of view again, so coming at it from the person who feels envious.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Um, if you're really envious of someone and as a result, you're, you know, being distant or not, you know, not wanting to ask them about their life, you're, it's so disconnecting because you're then so blind to all of the potential struggles that they're having in their life outside of the thing you're envious of.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  And so it's like, cause we see, we see that they've got the good car and you're like, oh God, I'm so envious and it's all about you and the envy of the car and I wish I had that car, not even thinking about the possibility that like, there's other stuff going on in their life outside of the car.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah. And in fact, one of the questions that can be really helpful to ask ourselves when we feel envy is, okay, so I'm really envious of their job. Um, but would I want to swap my entire life?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  To have that job?

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:47Speaker 00

  Because you're absolutely right. We only focus on this one part of lacking. What if we open it up? Do I want to swap my entire life with them? And most often we say no.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  Most often, yeah.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Um, so there's, there's that piece in there. But also when it comes to working with envy, you know, one of the most important things again is like to, to check in with what's this saying about me? What is this signaling to me about what I need, what I'm lacking? And how do I go about working with that part rather than the, the target of the envy over there?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  Hmm. I will also note that, um, when it comes to envy, we're, we're most likely to envy people who are relevant to us.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  Obviously. So I'm not going to envy, I don't know, like the table tennis, table gold medalist, because that's not an area that I value.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  Or is of interest to me. Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  I remember, I think there's, and I'll butcher this quote, but Elaine de Botton. So he, he's, he's, I remember reading something he wrote about envy and he says it in such an eloquent way, of course, but it was something like, we, we. Similar to what you're saying, it's like you only envy the people that you relate to.

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  So it's like, we don't envy King Charles.

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Even though he's like got all this money and you know, we don't envy him, but we envy the person next door. Who has far less than King Charles.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  But it feels weird saying King, I still wanna call him Prince, but um, but we envy the, we envy the person who we went to high school with.

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  Something that I, I find myself saying a lot, and that is that we only judge in areas where we ourselves have a vulnerability.

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  So, for example, um, let's just say we might have, I don't know, body image struggles, right? I might find myself judging old mate over there who's put on weight or lost weight. It's actually a reflection upon the vulnerability that we have for ourselves.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  So true, envy is completely subjective.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  It's not an objective thing, yes.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, because what I envy is gonna be vastly different to say what you envy.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:01:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. One of the really important things to mention when it comes to envy is understanding that it is a social emotion. Okay, and so that it is arising in the context of our social, perceived social status. And what that means is that in any given moment, we are in essence at checking whether I belong here. Whether I fit in here. And if you have had experiences, particularly in childhood, of feeling like you don't fit. Of feeling like I don't belong here, then that, I mean, that lives with you. It's a very strongly held experience that we hold often into adulthood.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  And particularly then going into new relationships or broader social circles. So when envy arrives, it might genuinely be a signal that I'm not feeling a belonging here. Um, or I feel like I'm not fitting, um, because they have this and I don't have this, for example. So yeah, it's, it's important in some ways to declutter what's act, what the actual experience is here. And it may be both, it may be that I feel like I don't belong and I'm envious of um, certain things in this social setting.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  In other circumstances, it may genuinely be, actually, I don't want to belong here. Um, I don't, in fact, want those things. And this feeling of not fitting in is actually important information about where I feel my people are.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:03:30Speaker 00

  And so that's kind of uh something to like to note there, to declutter. Is this a question of valuing these relationships, wanting what they have? And questions of enoughness? Or is this a greater question around whether are these are relationships I want to pursue? And whether I feel a sense of safety and welcoming from this group of people, for example?

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  I guess it's probably the envy, I feel like hits harder when you really want to be accepted.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, exactly.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  To state the obvious, but it's like when when it's like a place where it's like, oh, these, you know, these guys are not my guys.

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  And so it's like, um, you know, yeah.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  But like, you you don't really feel like they don't belong. I mean, you maybe feel like you don't belong, but maybe you don't care about that.

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  It's like, I don't really like those guys anyway.

• 1:04:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Speaker 03

  I also think, like, I felt this a lot as a teenager, not so much anymore, but I think a lot of people feel like this, but. I think I can, I've been envious of people's belonging.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  Hmm, yes.

• 1:04:32Speaker 03

  Like really envious of like looking at a group of people and going, wow, that person looks like they belong. And I'm so envious of that.

• 1:04:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I look, I think that's actually very common. And, you know, a lot of like popular culture, for example, has really um provided a model for what, for example, friendship or belonging looks like. Like, gosh, I think about Sex and the City, this example here of four completely different women. That are so connected and so tired and they see each other all the time. That then becomes like this model for how we understand, for example, female friendship. We actually know that that's, it can look a myriad of ways.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  Um, but there's an experience there even of like a parasocial or an imagined envy, like I'm envious of what they have. I'm envious of that group because it highlights a sense here of a yearning for more belonging. So envy can show up in so many ways. And I mean, I haven't mentioned hugely about social media, but most obviously this is envy on steroids. And one of my biggest suggestions when it comes to working with envy is that if you notice it's showing up a lot and you're on Instagram or TikTok a lot, have a look at what's happening there.

• 1:05:50Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  And although we can't take ourselves out of our social lives, we can take ourselves away from social media because it's not a demonstration, as we know, of real life. But it's telling us that it is. So if you struggle with envy, really think about either who you're following,

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  what you're seeing or taking yourself off in.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  I just do it, Josh.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Get rid of the bloody thing.

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's awesome.

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  Love it. That I don't have Instagram.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  I thought you said do it, Josh. And I was like, I think he is off it.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Can I ask, has it genuinely made a difference?

• 1:06:32Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  And interestingly, I had to, I think it's, I used to be able to check our Imperfects podcast Instagram on my phone without like logging in or having an account. I could just have a quick look and it would allow me to look at a few things and it sort of got buggy and stopped. Stopped me doing that the other day and I had to download the app. And I downloaded the app and didn't activate my account, but I have like a account that I can log into that doesn't follow in and doesn't have any posts that I can just like check things. And the fact, and I can feel myself starting to get already after like I've had the app on there for like a day, getting pulled back in and feelings of not enoughness, like

• 1:07:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Speaker 03

  Immediately on the second I downloaded the app, not enoughness. Yeah.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I gotta delete it again. But I don't have my, yeah, it's, it's, I am,

• 1:07:25Speaker 03

  I don't know how much worse my daily experience of life would be if I still had it, but I know it would be a lot worse than what it is.

• 1:07:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we're at a point now where that seems pretty obvious.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, just so much worse in so many ways.

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Speaker 03

  And I can't really say. Any ways in which it would be better.

• 1:07:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  It is pretty wild, isn't it? That it's like, we're still in the, we're still in the, and it's not an exact comparison, but it's like kind of similar. We're still in the mode of, of human history where everyone's smoking all the time. They know it's bad, but everyone does it because everyone does it.

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  We're in the 50s.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  We're in the 50s. And it's like you're smoking in sight. You can smoke anywhere you want on planes. Even though like, yeah, I know there's research that's come out that it's bad. And I know it will shorten my life, but everyone does it. We're sort of in that period of social media.

• 1:08:17Speaker 00

  Um, I am aware that I think we need some sort of way to work with this when, when the envy is arriving. Um, and one of the things I really want to kind of mention here is, is the notion of a downward comparison. So we've spoken a lot about upward comparison. But downward comparison can be a really helpful thing to help us move from that place of like anger, resentment, bitterness into more of a gratitude. Okay. So we need to be careful how we do this, but a downward comparison would be,

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  well, I, you know, I don't have that thing and I would really like it, but look what my body can do.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  And it can do more than these people over here. Look that I have in a house. Other people don't have houses. So we actually compare ourselves with people that are having a harder time than us. And that can open us up to a gratitude and an awareness of what I do have. It's a tricky thing because we can also use that to beat ourselves up with. So we can also. How do you mean? So gratitude can be a tricky thing when we, when we say, why don't you feel more grateful when you have X, Y, Z? You should feel grateful. Don't worry about them. You should feel grateful because you've got a job, you've got a wife, you've got a house, all this sort of stuff. What is wrong with you? So can you see how there's like a, a double edged sword if we're not paying attention?

• 1:09:44Speaker 03

  I feel like a, you can do it to the same person that you feel envious of. Like you can upwards in some areas, but then others go, well. But look at they're, they're struggling in this area and I feel a lot of compassion for them in that struggle.

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 03

  And I'm so grateful that I don't have to

• 1:10:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:10:06Speaker 03

  on a day to day basis, or I don't have to, I haven't had that thing happen to me or whatever it is. And, and I think it kind of really helps with the thing you envy. It's similar to what you're saying before about like paraphrasing, but you don't just get the nice car. You get the nice car and everything else in their life.

• 1:10:24Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:10:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 00

  Exactly. So when we can, if we slow down and, and again, it always starts with naming what's here. This is kind of waking up to what the experience is. Okay, aha, here is envy. I recognize it. And then we've got to be careful, we don't judge, of course, that we're feeling envious because that's exactly what will happen. We'll say like, what's wrong with you? I hate how you are. I hate this part of myself, blah, blah, blah. We've got to pause enough to take that part away and just stay with here is envy. Okay. And then we can dig into, okay, so this tells me that I feel like I lack something. What else is it telling me? So what else is the information about this feeling?

• 1:11:10Speaker 00

  Is it telling me that this is actually a really old, familiar feeling? And so, for example, with clients, I might even actually use that point to go into doing some like imagery work from childhood. So this feeling here, how familiar does that feel? Where do you feel that in the body? Tell me about a time when you felt like this as a kid. And then we go bang, pretty much often into something early in my history here, probably a repeated experience that has signaled something around my worthiness and not enoughness.

• 1:11:41Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:11:43Speaker 00

  So once again, we're really investigating this feeling. What is it actually, what's it telling me? What's the story attached to it? How familiar does this feel?

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  And then once we get there, yes, then we can open to a gratitude. Okay, so this story is here and.

• 1:12:03Speaker 00

  Look what I have been able to um create in my life. Look at my partner here, look at my house, look at my job that my body is moving and healthy. And we can offer ourselves an immense gratitude for what it's able to do.

• 1:12:21Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:12:22Speaker 00

  I can hold this envy here, yes, it can still be here and at the same time I can have a gratitude. So I've spoken about this before, the notion of both and. I can want something and yearn for it and I can also be really grateful for what I do have. And so that's how we learn to live with the feeling rather than be consumed by it.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  Well, the radical acceptance episode will be a very good complimentary episode to this.

• 1:12:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. One of the other great things in terms of working with envy is actually to move into contribution. So how do we work with envy? We go and contribute, we go and do volunteer work, we go and help someone, we go and make a connection. So we step out of, basically step out of ourselves and come into the greater good here. Um, it's a really great way of um kind of diffusing from this like really tightly held feeling. Okay, so that's there, I'm yearning for this. We acknowledge, name it, bring compassion, nurture, and then also like, let's get out of here. You know, go and do something that connects me to my values, go and make a contribution in some kind of way. It takes you out of it.

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I may have told this story before, but it feels relevant now. I, this isn't trying to brag at all, but I feel like I instinctively did something a very long time ago that fills this bucket. I was on my way to uni and I was on the train and I noticed this huge crowd of people at um Melbourne Park. And The train isn't the brag, no.

• 1:13:55Speaker 03

  Um, and I realised it was Australian Idol auditions and I thought, I'm gonna go audition for Australian Idol instead of um going to uni. So I jumped in the queue, huge queue of people, everyone just sort of competitively singing at each other. It was pretty obnoxious stuff, but all these people with ridiculously good voices. And I sort of stayed there for a while. And I started to feel really insecure and not good enough. And like, all these people have a much better voice than me and felt very envious of them. And I was walking away feeling so low about myself.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Did you do the audition, no?

• 1:14:29Speaker 03

  No, I didn't go through with it. No, I think I waited for about two hours and it was like still going on. And like, and, and I was kind of not liking being there. The longer I was there, it was a combination of like, I didn't really like a lot of the people I was around. But, and part of that was how a bit of envy about how good they were as singers, but also just didn't like the vibe of this sort of competitiveness. So I was walking away feeling really low. And then I saw someone's wallet on the ground and I like opened up and I saw, yeah, it was someone and no, this is away from the queue. So then I'm like, I'm going to try and track this person down. I spent like an hour trying to go through the queue, talking to people, couldn't find them. And then I went to-

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Is anyone here Guy Sebastian?

• 1:15:14Speaker 03

  And I went into the info. I told a security person, they're like, we can't tag it. Went into, it took me about half an hour to find where you drop it off and gave a note to the, and gave it to the people and left knowing that I'd done my best to try and give that person back their wallet. And I felt so good and the envy was gone. And I kind of left that day feeling great.

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Speaker 03

  And not jealous, resentful, envious or anything.

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:15:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think what I love about it too, is such an example of the fact that you remember that.

• 1:15:42Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:15:43Speaker 00

  You remember that feeling of contribution of making, like of making a difference, a small one, maybe, but making a difference. And, you know, it reminds me, there's some, like some amazing research around the, the value of contribution. And there's been studies done, and I'll have to find the, the actual reference for this, but if you offer people, say $50 and you can go and spend it on, I don't know, yourself, this, these are the two options. You can spend it on yourself or you can go and spend it on somebody else. Again and again, over and over, every time, spending it on someone else creates more feelings of wellbeing and you remember it. So let's just say you had $50, you're gonna go and I'm gonna get my nails done or something. Or I go and say, you go get your nails done

• 1:16:28Speaker 00

  for $50. I'm not going to remember sitting there having my nails done, but I'm going to reap the benefits of like, making a contribution.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Ryan's getting his nails done. Yeah, yeah. I'll take it as a bit of a hint, but yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  No, that's amazing.

• 1:16:43Speaker 00

  So I think that there are lots of ways in which we can work with this feeling that take us away from what feels like tunnel vision sometimes. Like, I'm just so laser beam focused on this, this feeling that is here and I don't like it. And I also am now not maybe liking that person. Let's zoom out and come into like, what's something that's bigger than myself here. Because like, in a broader way, you think about enoughness, right? And therefore, how you want to show up in the world. You get to the end of your life, and you know that maybe I never felt enough, but maybe I made someone else feel like they were enough.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 1:17:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Ring the bell. Huge, huge bell.

• 1:17:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. So this, this is this great challenge. Envy is information. We've got to tune into the information that's telling us. Notice what it says about what I'm needing, what I'm lacking. Offer ourselves the compassion and go and help other people.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Oh, God, that is awesome.

• 1:17:47Speaker 02

  Amazing. In 1999, Dr. M was promoted to assistant manager, assistant to the manager at the Bourne Cinema, and not me. And I was envious, but it's taken all these years. But you are the one who's freed me of that envy.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  Is that, is that the reason why you started doing talks? Because you're like, I feel this envy. I need to go and do something for someone else. Start the resilience project.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  No, I was also very happy to him. She was a great assistant manager. But anyway, all that to say, you're just amazing. Again, like every set, every time after every one of your episodes, that's going to help so many people.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22Speaker 00

  I hope so.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  And I feel like it's going to help a lot of relationships and friendships. So.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  Excellent.

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:18:28Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  As always.

• 1:18:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Pleasure.

• 1:18:30Speaker 00

  Right. See you soon.

• 1:18:35Speaker 03

  If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber only apps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay anymore, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au.