Claudia Karvan - Love, Her Way

Stop. Everything. Now. It’s Claudia Karvan day. 💌Join 5,000+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy An icon of the screen, and of the heart, Claudia is Australian entertainment royalty. Claudia’s life itself feels like a movie (no one else grew up in a nightclub, did they?) and it was an absolute privilege to listen to all the lessons that she has learnt along the way. With incredible grace, Claudia talks to Hugh, Ryan and Josh about playing the long game during divorce, and how she came to the realisation that it wasn’t up to her to fix everything. Claudia speaks openly about separating the person from the diagnosis, and how, and why, she thinks so often about death. This is one for the highlight reel. If you’d like to watch this full episode on YouTube, click on this link - https://youtu.be/4qH4vBr0i6Y 0:00 – Hugh ‘questionable-decisions’ van Cuylenburg 12:24 – The role of a lifetime 17:55 – An unconventional childhood 28:50 – It’s not up to you to fix everything 39:55 – The opening of another world 45:47 – Doing it all (with support) 51:12 – Love and family HER way 59:33 – Play the long game 1:07:15 – Managing mental ill-health 1:24:39 – The benefit of helping others 1:26:48 – How to love in a healthy way 🥸 Which Imperfects Host Are You Quiz? - https://tally.so/r/Xx4PEO 🫖Other Imperfects episodes mentioned in this episode Stephen Curry - I Dug a Hole … and Found Myself - https://bit.ly/3ZpPNkN Hannah Ferguson - Outspoken But Not Broken - https://bit.ly/3M8SC6y 📺 Things to watch Love My Way - https://bit.ly/4qFCjNA The Secret Life of Us - https://bit.ly/3Z1Thtt The Queen of Versailles - https://bit.ly/3Z5FemE Australian Story - The Secret Life of Claudia Karvan - https://bit.ly/3ZE8p0g Who Do You Think You Are? with Claudia Karvan - https://bit.ly/4bIw3QL Bump - https://bit.ly/49O16Jv 📖 Things to read The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche - https://bit.ly/4k8qdtR 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, (with the new cards!) purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here - http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Royalty alert, Australian entertainment royalty in the room.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Claudia was one of the most talented and accomplished creatives in Australia. At 14, Claudia would play opposite Judy Davis in High Tide, which would later be recognised as her breakout role.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  She did have a child and I was like, I'm gonna kill that child.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  She's my mum.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  How would you describe your childhood?

• 0:21Speaker 02

  We were all going to private schools and my mum was wearing Issey Miyake and buying La Prairie and we were, you know, living the high life. Until it all really came down. My parents were declared bankrupt. My biological dad had schizoaffective disorder and bipolar and extreme narcissism. He thought I sent him insane.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  I know your brother was also schizophrenic as well. How is it loving someone with the condition of schizophrenia?

• 0:51Speaker 02

  Rupert is not a problem and I am not gonna try and solve him. All I am gonna do is meet him.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  He has two characters, the magician and then he has a woman called Rebecca Swirfty-Wirfty.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  I understand you've been imagining death.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, not sitting there imagining people crying at your funeral and what music will you play and all this sort of stuff, but it was about, okay, if it ended tomorrow, how do you feel?

• 1:17Speaker 01

  We're all imperfect and on this podcast, I'll be chatting with a variety of interesting people who are willing to make themselves vulnerable by sharing their own struggles and imperfections. I'm Hugh Van Cuylenburg from the Resilience Project.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  And I'm Ryan Shelton from My Mum.

• 1:32Speaker 03

  And I'm Josh from Hugh's Mum.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  And this is The Imperfects.

• 1:39Speaker 00

  It's a brand new year for The Imperfects.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  It surely is. We are back and we are so excited. I mean, we have been having episodes, but we are back with a very exciting one for you today.

• 1:51Speaker 00

  Well, yeah. So for those of you who've been listening over summer, we've had a few episodes that have played, I guess, like highlights or our favourite bits from our subscriber only show, A Little More Imperfects, and you can go listen to them, there's a few episodes of those. But now we are back for brand new episodes, new guests and god.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  We got some big names this year.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  They're all great and today is unbelievable. Claudia Karvan.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Claudia Karvan. Wow. It's, it's pretty, it's pretty wild. And often when we get guests like this, you think back to when we first started eight years ago. And it's like, you would never have thought we would have anyone like Claudia Karvan.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Is it inappropriate to say, um, be still my beating heart?

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Um, uh, it depends on the context.

• 2:34Speaker 03

  What's following that?

• 2:36Speaker 01

  In reference to Claudia, just like be still my beating heart.

• 2:39Speaker 00

  So hang on. So you're as if you're saying that to her?

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Uh, just about her. Yeah.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  So you're just saying in general with her on your mind, be still my beating heart. So who are you saying it to?

• 2:48Speaker 01

  To, to our audience, to everyone.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  No, I'm saying to my heart, actually.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  It's not inappropriate. It's more confusing than inappropriate.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  But, um, but anyway, we, we want to get to the interview as quickly as possible.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Uh, but Josh, there is, every year I get, I get so excited to come in because no doubt you've tinkered with the studio.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 3:10Speaker 00

  In some way, and people watching on, on Spotify or YouTube, you probably noticed the lighting's a bit different.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  Slightly different, rather than being a, a sort of blonde glow behind you. It's now a dappled light, a dappled blonde glow. So it's a pretty big change. I didn't want people to be too put off when they came on.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. He's been banging on about a gobbo lighting effect for years.

• 3:31Speaker 03

  Exactly. Uh, and we've got a little bit more gear. We've been buying, buying a bit of stuff. I actually, I was, I was on Facebook market. Actually, this is a bit of an in-joke. Maybe I shouldn't.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  I just realized that.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  I'll let everyone in.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Okay. So I was on Facebook Marketplace today and the first, trying to get some cameras. And I don't know why I was targeted with this, but the first thing that came up is like, the first thing I could buy was a big brick pizza oven for free.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  Well.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Which I don't, I just realized that, that I probably should have said this off mic because it's not really, no one's going to know why that's, that's funny.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  No, I'm so glad you brought it up because it's one of my favorite things. If you know Hugh, you know that Hugh does, makes questionable decisions sometimes and does some strange things. Hugh, please, I know you don't feel like you want to tell this because you'll probably feel like it's unrelatable. But can you please tell the story, your pizza oven story?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  It's not that it's not relatable. I mean, it's not relatable at all, but I thought this year, 2026, I'm not gonna, I feel like sometimes I come across as a bit of a buffoon.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  You think so?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  I was thinking this morning, yeah, I'm going to come across as no longer will I be the buffoon. But this is just, I mean, yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Can I just say on all of our behaavs, please don't stop. Please don't stop. I think the episodes will be half the length.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  If you quit buffooning.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Well, okay, this is the most ridiculous thing that's ever happened to me. We.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  Start at the beginning.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Penny and I had, we don't have it now, but we did have a beach house and we love very much. And I just kept feeling like when we bought it, it just had the most amazing pizza oven you've ever seen.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  The size of this room.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Oh, outrageous. Unbelievable. I remember when we came over and the team went over to the house to see it for the first time, whoa, that it's like a legit, commercial level quality outdoor pizza oven.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and in a wonderful spot. And we had the place for a couple of years and the whole time I just wanted a sauna. It was like a dream come true. I love a sauna. They're very expensive, but I thought, you know what? We're going to get a sauna.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  And the only place I can really think to put it where it's going to look beautiful, looking out across the view is where the pizza oven is. I made the call.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  And at risk of making this even less relatable, the sauna that you wanted was not off the shelf, not off the shelf. It was a bespoke.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  I think it was off the shelf.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  It was off the shelf. But a very high shelf.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  I don't know. I mean, it's dangerous considering how heavy this sauna is to put it on that shelf, but it is, it is top shelf sauna.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Not at all. But I, I, and I made the decision, which shocked everyone. I thought, well, do you know what? I think the pizza oven has to go. The only place I can think to put this sauna is exactly where the pizza oven is. Shocked everyone.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  It's perfect spot. Yes.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I argue, yeah, there were other spots. There was more space on the block than.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I just thought that.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  How big was the block here?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Anyway, I decided.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Cause like I found when I was there, I had to like, you know, to go to one part of, cause there was different elevations of the block. Like when Jam and I were there, we, no, no, we, in order to go down to the bottom of the block, we had to camp overnight.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Just because of the altitude difference.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it's a steep hill.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Anyway, that's not true, but we, um, I know, I said that I'm sorry that I have lived here. We've had this place for two years and I haven't used a pizza oven once. I'm never going to use it. Decided to get a quote to get the pizza oven removed. The guy came and said, yeah, it's going to cost $400. It'll take me a few hours. Decided it'd be good to get it done while Josh was there. So he could sort of, Josh and his family, so he could just keep an eye on things.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a great idea for your holiday as well.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  No, it's good.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Well, it's meant to be two or three hours.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  And the guy messaged me and said, I feel like whoever built this, they built it with the idea of putting a skyscraper on the fucking thing. It's going to take me three days. And so it was like Josh drilling and.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Well, it was jackhammering for, from 8am till 4pm for, I think it was four days straight.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Beautiful.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  I've never seen anything built with more steel reinforcement through it than this thing.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  I mean, it was not meant to be taken down.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  I believe all the bricks were imported from Italy. But the guy who built it, this isn't you, the guy who, the built, the guy, the guy who built it in, who owned the house previously, he loved pizza. Yeah, lovely guy and cared a lot about this oven and imported the bricks for it.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Of course, when you build a pizza oven from scratch and you want it for life, you want to make it to the best quality possible.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't know that when I, when it was, I didn't know it before it was pulled down. I did, someone told me that when the previous owner found out, he was in tears that it had been pulled down. But anyway, so we, so it takes three days, finally get rid of it. And I went, right, the sauna, I was like, I can't wait to visit on a holiday. And they said, oh, this is six months of life with the sauna. And I, right, okay. So I waited, ended up being about 10 months.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  It's going to be quite hard for them to get it off that shelf. Like probably half the time is like, how do you crane it off that shelf? It's so hard.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  We organized someone to come and build the sauna. She started and said, um, it's not level. You need to get this concreted and flattened and flattened out so we can build it. And I'm like, right, okay. A lot more money to do that. And then they did that and went to build the sauna. And I said, they haven't put enough concrete, there needs to be more. So they take down the sauna, put more concrete out, fill the area with concrete. And then they built the sauna and it's great. In that time, P and I realised that for various reasons, we decided that we would need to sell this place. And so, which is heartbreaking, the kids were shattered, but we decided to sell the place after we'd sold it.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Cause I think, cause they were gonna, cause the person buying it was gonna put a new suburb on the block, weren't they? Aren't they planning on developing a whole new, turning into a full suburb? Is that the plan?

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Just, I want everyone to know, this is like extremely embellished.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Somewhat, somewhat.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Anyway, so I was shattered because I had put, this is like a year of my heart and soul and thought and finances into this sauna. And we realised we were selling it. And basically the day it sold was the day that they finished the sauna. And I thought, well, this is just devastating. And I thought, well, we've sold it, but I can't, it's so much time and effort and money's going to this sauna. I can't sell the sauna with the place. I had to sell the sauna to someone. So I start trying to sell it and it becomes impossible to sell that as well.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  So the plan is to sell the sauna, so then separately, so then the person buying the home, who bought the home with a sauna on it, is now not going to have the sauna.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I mean, they knew that the sauna wasn't part of the package.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Okay, great. Yeah.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  Anyway, so that's all, this whole process is taking a year. I didn't get to use the sauna once. And I went, well, look, these things happen. I'm a little bit sad about this, but that's such as life. I'll let go of that.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  And then I thought, well, maybe, look, maybe the new owners love saunas. I don't know. I'll ask. And so I asked the real estate agent and said, hey, just out of curiosity, just wondering, what did the new owner, did he comment on the sauna? When he saw it, did he say, that looks great?

• 10:36Speaker 00

  Cause maybe he would wanna buy the sauna.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the new owner's response will go to my grave with me.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  He said, when he saw the sauna, no, not much into saunas. He said, I think I might build a pizza oven and put it there.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  He said, it looks like the perfect spot for a pizza oven.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  And you know what? I think it might import the bricks from Italy.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  I mean, if you really turn the heat up, you could cook a pizza in that sauna. Maybe. Um, okay.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Claudia Karvan. What an absolute legend of Australian television.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  Screen, film.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Screen, every stage. She's the classic reason we do this podcast. You look at her and go, well, that's a perfect person. She has gone through a lot throughout her childhood and throughout her adult life. One of the things that she talks about, which is something you hear people reference, but you don't often hear people go into detail with,

• 11:33Speaker 01

  was her brother and her dad's struggles, mental health struggles. So her dad has a schizoaffective disorder and her brother has schizophrenia. And I've never really heard someone talk about it. And the way she has dealt with it, or the way that she has learnt to.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Accept it.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Accept it was very inspiring to me because I feel like in a very different area of my life and for a different reason, this acceptance is the biggest challenge that I face. And that's actually what I want to talk about when we come back from this episode is the way that we can accept things, let go of things. Because I think many people deal with it, but it's certainly my biggest challenge at the moment.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Nice. All right. We'll be back soon, but here's our chat with Claudia Karvan.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  Royalty alert. We have Australian entertainment royalty in the room. Doesn't happen often, but we do.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Would you, would you accept that title, Claudia?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  I think it's happened. I have Stephen Curry was on. I call him royalty.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  Well, he was technically a king at some point.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  That's right. There you go.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Literal royalty.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Think you're up there, if not, and I say this with great respect to Steve, above Stephen Curry in the royalty ranks.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  He'll be listening to this while he's in the garden. He just, he just chopped a finger off. When he heard that?

• 12:56Speaker 00

  He won't be happy, but he'll, he'll, he'll agree, but he won't be happy.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  I love Stephen. He's, he's played my brother. We've played siblings and he's, he's the best.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  He is. Yeah. And this is not about Steve.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Get him back in favour. But he is, I feel like every time I speak to someone about Steve Carey, that it's like their face lights up.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Yep. He is universally adored.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  If I don't have Steve's bio in front of me, just in case I've got Claudius.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  We can keep just talking about Steve.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Why not? People will go back and listen to the episode.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, true. Well, we'll link it in the show notes.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Claudia was one of the most talented and accomplished creatives in Australia. Growing up in Sydney's King's Cross, where her mum and stepdad ran Arthur's nightclub, Claudia was often the practical presence in an unpredictable world. Familiar with the film world through nightclub patrons, Claudia's first acting role was at 10 years of age. At 14, Claudia would play opposite Judy Davis in High Tide, which would later be recognised as her breakout role. Acting in pivotal Australian projects such as The Secret Life of Us, Claudia's career continued to grow as she built credentials as a producer and co-creator with a number of projects, including Love My Way, which is just ridiculously incredible. I mean, they're all, sorry, I'm not picking just, they're all very great.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Spirited.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  When he saw Love My Way, finally she did something good.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And most recently, Bub alongside many others. Claudia has received multiple actor awards, Logie Awards, been inducted into the Australian Film Walk of Fame, and in 2023 received the Medal of Order of Australia for her contribution to Australian screen and television. But perhaps what makes us Australians love Claudia most is not her immense talent, it's her humanity. On screen and off, she reflects something profoundly familiar to us. Grace without pretense, strength without ego and warmth without need for applause.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  She has shown us that.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Who wrote this?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  She did.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Beautifully written. Thanks.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  She has shown us that vulnerability can be powerful, intelligence can be kind and authenticity can light up a room more than fame ever could. In a world that often feels loud and fleeting, Claudia reminds us of what's real. The quiet dignity of someone who has given her life to telling our stories and in doing so has become a part of all of ours.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you so much. So AI didn't write that?

• 15:25Speaker 00

  It knows you very well. It's incredible. There's actually one, one role that you haven't played, but it has been mentioned on the podcast. I need to, you might need to put your headphones on for this actually.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Oh, please.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  So a little while ago on the podcast, we were discussing, we were just having a general chat and you got brought up in an unexpected way. Is there, are there any actors that come to mind who would be playing you in the movie about you?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, the weirdest thing came to my head that if her would like to play me, which I almost don't want to say, it's so weird.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  I'd like you to say.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Claudia Karvan.

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  I'm so glad.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Karvan? I don't know. She's great.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Definitely a stretch for her, but she is a great actress. Who doesn't love Claudia Karvan? She'd be amazing. Is this something, is this something you've thought about before?

• 16:20Speaker 01

  I watched your Australian story the other night and I just thought, I remember I was on the couch by myself. And I thought, oh, I was like, play my character, it might be her. And I was like, that's not going to happen because it's weird. She's just, something about her face is just so vulnerable and open and.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. Not, not, not, she looks like me.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  I just thought, she seems like one of the best people of all time. I'd like her to represent me, but anyway, this has got very weird, very quickly.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  So yeah, so no, no pressure, Claudia. Obviously think it over, speak to your agent.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  When I met you, I did think, you look like someone I know. And now I see it's me.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. It would, it would be, I mean, I would love to see you play anything really, but to play Hugh in his, in his life, assuming you're getting a biopic at some point.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Assuming. I did, I did do a body swap one with Guy Pearce. So I have played a man before.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Well, there you go.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  And you know, the life is now everyone, you know, there's a lot of friends beyond the binary. So, you know, what is gender anyway?

• 17:27Speaker 00

  Exactly. It's absolutely possible.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  I can do it. Sign me up.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  I think the biopic is the, the most outrageous part of this, to be honest. The fact that that's gonna happen, yeah, you never know. Wow, okay, so where do we start? Because I feel like there's so much to talk about with Claudia.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  I mean, the temptation is to talk the roles you've done and the incredible parts you've played and the TV shows you've been on. But I do feel like, for me personally, I just have this immense interest in you as a person. And I feel like to maybe set that up, who you are now, would be really helpful to go back in time and to look at your childhood. Because it's, I remember watching Australian Story thinking, I've never heard of a childhood like that before. Quite a unique experience growing up. How would you describe your childhood?

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's interesting. There's a quote that I love, which goes something like, "The future is in the past and the past is in the present." Are you familiar with that?

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Oh, I can, yeah, that makes sense.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  And it really, or you can only, life can only be lived forwards, but it can only be understood backwards. And when I do think about my childhood, I do see all of the groundwork laid for where I am now. So my mum is still alive. She's now in assisted care. She's 83. She's pretty sharp, though, and she listens to all the podcasts and stuff. And I see her a lot and I love her very much. And my stepdad lives in Bali. But unlike the amazing episode that you did with Hannah Ferguson, I do envy how openly she can talk about everything that happened during her childhood.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  I feel a little bit more protective of my parents and I haven't asked for permission to talk about certain things. And I don't think they would feel like there's any reason to apologize for anything. So I feel like I'm on different, it's a different playing field.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  So with that in mind, I would say my childhood was.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  There was a lot of, there was volatility, there was drama, very, very social, lots of extraordinary people around, lots of honesty, like my mother never put a filter on anything. Um, so it's like never, which, which is a, a blessing and a curse.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  You, you, you mean in terms of like how she spoke to you as a child?

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I remember something she just turned to me and like tell me some bit of gossip about her thirty or forty year old friend, which I like, I'm like totally inappropriate, but it's sort of great. And I didn't even understand what she was saying at the time, but you remember it thirty years later, you go, oh, that's what she meant. Oh, wow. Juicy bit of gossip.

• 20:22Speaker 00

  I can't believe she told me that.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Why did she tell a five year old?

• 20:28Speaker 02

  So, I mean, that's.

• 20:29Speaker 00

  Suzie's trying to quit drinking, you know how hard that is for you.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. Um, so.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  But I imagine that was even like growing up in, growing up in a nightclub, there was probably a lot of gossip and a lot of stories to be shared.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that started from, um, from when I was six, um, six through to sixteen, yeah. And a lot of adult, inebriated adults and colorful drag queens and artists and rock stars. And, I mean, I was only thinking the other day, I vividly remember all of us, um, hiding in the nightclub, um, and our friend was bringing in Brian Brown. And we all had to shh, and they're like, surprise. And I don't, I can't do the maths on it, but maybe it was his thirtieth or something like that. And I would have been about ten, but, um, so it's, you know, people, that sort of, uh,

• 21:24Speaker 02

  you know, fa- fashion designers and, um, and, you know, people that were very, very successful and other people who had, you know, the eighties was a time of excess. So I was watching a lot of excess, a lot of money, a lot of recreational drugs, a lot of high fashion and people, you know, bottoming out as well during that time. So, um.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Did you live at the, were you living at the nightclub or just nearby?

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Um. We had a, we lived in about six different houses all along that street, Victoria Street. So it's now, if anyone knows Potts Point, King's Cross, the current establishment is called Miss G's. It's a really popular restaurant. So that's it. That's, that's.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So my parents bought that property when I was about six and it was just a boarded up old, completely gutted, um, you know, building with people, um, sleeping rough, people squatting in there, no floors. And so completely built it from scratch and beautiful design and a lot of creativity and thought went into that. And us kids would help, you know, paint the dots on the walls and stuff. It was a really beautiful time. And, um, and yeah, it opened in, yeah, nine, um, nineteen seventy eight, I think. But they never had a, they never actually had a licence to run a nightclub. They only had a licence to run a restaurant. So they just, they broke, they breached the licence time and time and time and time again,

• 22:55Speaker 02

  until they lost the licence. There was a sort of a whole lot of, um, like pubs had licences to serve alcohol. There was a sort of a monopoly over, very different to Victoria, the New South Wales story. So, yeah, they ended up lo- losing that, um, licence and things sort of changed a lot for our family when I was about, um, sixteen. So that excess radically changed during the, um, during the recession that we had to have, the Paul Keating recession, where interest rates went up to seventeen percent.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  What year was that?

• 23:29Speaker 02

  Um. So I think I was in about year eleven or year, it was like nineteen eighty seven, ninety eighty eight. And so our whole family, yeah, was, uh, yeah, a massive change.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  And I guess like because you were, you were, it sounds like, pretty in on all the adult conversations, you probably, I don't know, did you feel that fear? Were you sort of privy to everything that was going on, like the struggle?

• 23:54Speaker 02

  I think having, now having had teenagers myself, it's amazing how much you can say in front of them. But the very nature of being a teenager is you are so self-absorbed. And you're supposed to be, and I was too. So a lot of it was going on around me and I didn't really appreciate it until it all really, the house of cards came down. And then ironically, we had probably the most beautiful phase of our family life. Because my parents were declared bankrupt. And we were all going to private schools and my mum was wearing, you know, issy Miyake and buying La Prairie and we were, you know, living the high life.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  And then we were, you know, renting a cottage in the bush and growing organic garlic and free-range chickens and cleaning eggs and selling eggs and trying to get by. But it was a beautiful time. Like, I literally physically made a house with my dad and my brothers. Every day we would put the trailer on the back of the Holden Commodore, drive it down to the creek, fill it up with sand, go to the dam and fill it up with clay, straw and, and we made a hundred mud bricks a day together, baked them in the sun and built a little mud brick house, which is where my parents lived for a period of time.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was rad. It was, but such a beautiful time.

• 25:23Speaker 00

  And did that, did, because the fact, did you, at the time, did you think it was great? Or is it in reflection, you think it's beautiful?

• 25:31Speaker 02

  No, at the time, it was genuinely beautiful. Because we really consolidated as a family. And Arthur, my stepdad, dad is an amazing cook. So we would just hit a garden and we cook beautiful meals together and go for bush walks and just really appreciated nature in a way that, I mean, we sort of always did with my real dad. I was in the bush with him a lot and we spent a year in Bali. So we're very, you know, into being, you know, out of King's Cross. But this was a real, it was really healing, beautiful time.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  So it reminds me, have you seen a documentary called Queen of Versailles? You remember that documentary?

• 26:14Speaker 02

  No, what's, who's that about?

• 26:15Speaker 00

  It's, it's like a, it's an American doco. I think it like, it was a big doco, maybe like 15, 10, 15 years ago. But essentially it's about the richest family in America. And they had, they were building the biggest house in America and like the richest people, whatever. It was like a documentary about that. But as they were filming, the financial crisis hits while they're filming and they lose everything. And the sort of, the film starts off with the wife showing the crew like, this is my room where I keep my shoes. And this is my, and it's the most, the excess is astonishing. They're making a documentary about it. That's how astonishing it is. But then when the financial crisis hits and you, the cameras are filming them, realize that they're losing everything.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  And you're seeing it happen. And he panics and he's not really on camera that much, but he's having a meltdown. But the wife, she handles it in the most inspiring way. And really like takes control of the situation and shows the kids that this is going to be okay. And it is just, it's really amazing to see someone pivot like that and deal with news, which you would assume is gonna like ruin her because you think that she's so attached to the wealth. But then to see the fact that actually she doesn't actually need it.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  That reminds me of this amazing moment where they were interviewing, it was one of the big bushfires, maybe 15, 20 years ago.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  They were interviewing this man in the Blue Mountains who was a book collector and he had this incredible library. And he had accumulated so many rare, beautiful books that he actually had to build a little library for them. And it was this circular sort of turret thing with layers and layers and layers, you know, floors and floors of books. And they said to him, how did you feel when you were looking at this tower of all your books just burning down in front of you? And he said,

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Relieved.

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  I get it.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  I was like, that just hit me in the solar plexus. I was like, that is a message to take away. Like.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  I got chills.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  The house I live in, I have very, very little, little storage space and some, I had some friends who were thinking they might buy the house as well. They go, but it's got no storage. I'm like, thank God. I don't want storage. I don't want an excuse to accumulate stuff and store stuff that I probably don't need.

• 28:43Speaker 00

  That's an amazing response. Wow.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Isn't that beautiful?

• 28:47Speaker 00

  It is. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  Um, you, you said before, you mentioned your stepdad and then you quickly corrected and called him dad. And I was just wondering, so that, so the nightclub that was your stepdad, yeah, okay.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  It's, look, it's a real sore point in my family and it is sad. Um, my biological dad has passed away now. But, um, I was born Claudia Robbins, so I had his name. Um, but my parents had already split. And then for various different reasons, I haven't interrogated my mother about this and I don't really want to, but she changed our names to her new partner's name.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Which would not have helped my father at all. It's, I don't advise, anyone listening, don't advise you do that. And then also you as a child carry that, like he, I think he was always disappointed in me that I didn't change my name back. But by the age of, by the time I'm conscious of something like that, which is nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two, I've got a career, I have my own name, I'm not going to change my name back to make him feel like I'm a part of him.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  But that is the sort of scenario. So, and then it's tricky because I've always called Arthur dad. And I always called my biological dad Peter. It's just this horrible mess that you inherit as a child. Um, and you know, at some point you've got to go, well, I, I didn't create this. Um, I'm just going to navigate it as best I can and not, um, yeah, take it on and feel responsibility for that.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Hmm. That's a tough thing to get to though, I imagine. That kind of like getting to a point of.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  Being, I don't know if the word is okay, but saying exactly what you said, that this isn't my, I didn't create this situation, so I shouldn't hold the blame for it.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just have to wholesale give credit to, I went to a psychologist way too late in life, like probably around forty two. And yeah, her giving me the permission to sort of understand that sort of stuff. And but yeah, to know when to go draw that boundary and go, well, it's not up to me to fix everything. Up until then, I think I, well, I know I truly believed it's my responsibility to fix everything.

• 31:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Really stupid way to think. Move through the world, but somehow it's got through.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  But when you realise you don't have to, that's more relief. That's like, it's like.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Sort of. Well, it becomes a pattern of thinking and there is still a part of your, in your brain that goes, actually, you're really selfish for not taking out that time to fix that problem that you can fix. You are in a position, you can fix it. Why aren't you fixing it? There's still that voice. You have to have a chat to that person.

• 31:42Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  So was your biological dad, Peter, was he in your life when you were growing up?

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Oh, look, that was one of the many elements of volatility. He was, he was given us by the courts. And then my mum kidnapped us back a couple of times. And then the judge, the family law court judge who gave us to Peter was, there was a whole lot of, I don't know if you're familiar with this, they bombed and killed and lots of, there was a lot of, I think there's going to be a documentary made about it. That judge was bombed, the house was bombed and it wasn't my mum, it wasn't my mum, but.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Okay, you have to put that on the record.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Might have been some other angry parent. Then, then, so the, the case was reheard and then we were given to my mum.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  And my dad was given access one weekend a month.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  And I was, I very, very reluctantly went on those weekends and didn't want to be there. And then didn't go for quite a period of time, but then eventually, I think when I was about eight or nine, I started um wanting to spend weekends with him in the bush. So that would have been very painful for my dad. Now I know, um, as a parent, it must have been awful, but I just didn't wanna, didn't know him very well, didn't wanna be around him. Understood that there was a lot of um conflict and didn't wanna bar of it.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  It's one hell of a thing to go through as a child. Like I, my kids are around that age now, between eight and three, and I just think about the smallest little disruptions to their day, I get a little bit worried about, a bit stressed about the impact it's gonna have. But when I think about that, being sent somewhere you don't want to go for a weekend feels like eternity. Do you remember what it was? Was it the situation or was it him that, what was it that made you just think this doesn't feel right?

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Um, look, to be honest, I only remember one situation where he had to sort of drag me up the stairs, bawling, like screaming, crying, not wanting to go. Um, uh, but then I think once I got there, like a lot of, I think kids are pretty adaptable really. And I think once I was there, I had a, I probably had a really lovely time. Um, it was, I, I loved the bush, I loved the property that he built, the rivers and uh, um, he, he created an incredible um place for us. He built this beautiful big sandstone house and.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  So he built a house too?

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Yes, he did. He was a builder. He was a builder, yeah. Um, yeah, he had motorbikes and horses and it was stunning. It was a beautiful place. And once I sort of, um, I, I don't know, our relationship sort of recovered a little bit. He was always very British though, just a very sort of, he, he was sent to boarding school when he was like four years old.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Right, okay.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  And he had um schizoaffective disorder and bipolar, so possibly I just.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  Felt a bit of that, maybe, I don't know.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  What's schizoaffective disorder?

• 34:49Speaker 02

  I don't know, I've just read it in all his medical notes after he died.

• 34:52Speaker 00

  But is it like schizophrenia?

• 34:53Speaker 02

  I suppose so, I actually don't know.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Right, okay.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  But bipolar and and extreme narcissism.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Right, okay, wow.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  So there's a lot going on for him. But also he was managed to have friends and have a a life and and and really genuinely loved his kids and loved kids in general, just loved being a parent. But had these other psychological hurdles that he was obviously wrestling with. And they got the better of him when I was about 16.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Maybe 15, I remember, we would go, we would go there a lot. And sadly, you know, when you become a teenager, you you have your own life. And you stop wanting to go to your dad's property in the bush. And of course, that was all about him, not about, oh, great, my kids got a social life and they're doing stuff. So that was another point of conflict. And then I remember going there just with my brother. And we arrived and he opened up the power box and he started going on this rave about, oh, you know, I don't know if it was the aliens or something, someone was playing around with his electrical box. And I just knew, I was like, maybe 15 or 16, I was like, no one is playing around with this.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  There's something odd going on there. And that's when he started, he went into a complete decline and ended up in psychiatric institutes on and off for years. And like, yeah, it's to the point where I was at school one day and over the tannoy, the my, the principal was like, Claudia Karvan, can you please come to the principal's office? I'm like, oh, God. Going to the principal's office and she said, oh, hi Claudia, I've got um missing persons on the phone. Um, they just need to talk to you. Can you just tell them that you're not missing?

• 36:47Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  I was like, sure. Hi, yeah, I'm just at school. I'm fine. I'm not missing. Like, and it was my dad, you know, that was his way of.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Did you know that immediately or?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I'd been receiving lots of packages addressed. He thought that I was um Princess Anne. I was given a, there I am, I'm royalty. I actually am royalty.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  I knew it felt right.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  It's come full circle. My, my brother was a duke and I think I was a Duchess of something and my dad was the um, the Regent of Sydney.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Um, so it was really off the charts sort of.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Was that to you, like, did it feel sad to you that this was happening or was it?

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Well, I have to just call on that same thing. When you're a teenager, you're so involved in your own world and your own projects and your friends and and it's a good thing as a teenager that you are this self-sufficient bubble. So, no, I, I thought it was just bizarre and kind of interesting. I'm sad to say it. I didn't feel.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, but of course.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Sort of empathy. I really didn't. I just was a self-absorbed teenager and I found it quite, I found it very creative. I was very impressed with how creative he was and how, what a writer he was. Like, he would write,

• 38:08Speaker 02

  you know, pages and pages and pages of stuff.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  What was your relationship with your siblings like throughout this time, throughout childhood?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  My brother, he went to a Steiner school. And I think the best way to describe my brother, I love, the Steiner education was terrific for him, um, really worked. And they had these, it was very alternative Steiner. And his school report, I'll never forget, because I was at a like a girl's private school Anglican, you know.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  The opposite.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  The opposite, the opposite end of the spectrum. And his report card was um a beautiful drawing of a house and a poem. And the, the words, the, the poem were worth to the effect of, Rupert, you are a beautiful house with, oh, windows and no door.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  That's the report card.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  That was my brother's report card. So if you ask how was I getting on with my siblings?

• 39:07Speaker 02

  I mean Rupert has always been like an angel, these curly locks and quite quiet, introverted, shy, but really ready to laugh, like just always hung out with everyone, played games, didn't say a lot, but laughed a lot. So just a beautiful energy. But, you know, not a lot more, um, you know, conversation or things going on other than that, that he's just adorable. And my younger brother, Paris, was a lot more firey and he's, he's Arthur's um, son. So yeah, and he's, he, he was just my younger brother, like, you know, brat. Basically.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  And so with your, I'm guessing acting comes into around about this time, obviously, when your breakout role was when you were 14, is that right?

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I did um, get a feature film, a, a lead in a kid's film when I was 10.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  About the singing dog with um, the flying fruit fly circus and with Gary McDonald and the singing dog. And that was just charmed. And I do feel like I was very lucky to have this other world open up because the family life and the nightclub was a lot, I think, on maybe my nervous system or whatever. It was really quite nice to, back in that day, you didn't have tutors on set, you didn't have, um, I didn't have an escort or anything like that. I just was treated like an adult and I was 10 years old. And I remember going to work, it was dark, I'd come home at night, it was dark. And I just inherited this whole

• 40:47Speaker 02

  new family, um, which was this incredible creative ecosystem, you know, what a, what a film set is. And, and I absorbed all that and loved it. And I still remember the night we wrapped.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  And I don't remember crying with anyone or getting any hugs or anything like that. I just remember walking down the street just inconsolable, sobbing because I was, it was ending.

• 41:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  And then I didn't act again for another four years, but the connection was made then. And then I did a film with Phil Noyce where I played Wendy Hughes's daughter, I think when I was about thirteen. But then, yeah, it was Judy Davis and Gillian Armstrong and Laura Jones wrote the script. Sandra Levy was the producer. It was an extraordinary, another amazing experience where I was away from home, seven weeks, just living on my own, you know, terms. I had a tutor and an escort at that stage, but, but away, I, I do, I'm really, really appreciative of my mum, that she didn't try and insert herself into that world.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  She felt very sad and disappointed that I became a child actor at ten, which I think.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Really?

• 42:01Speaker 02

  I totally understand that. That must have been really shocking because I don't think she was a part of me doing that audition or that opportunity coming up. It's very different to the way things are today.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  How did it come up, that first opportunity?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Oh, it was just all producers who lived in, you know, came to the nightclub. And one of the producers, Richard Brennan, a wonderful producer, he also produced Newsfront, one of the most starstruck, beautiful man. He's, he was my best friend's dad.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Gotcha.

• 42:31Speaker 02

  And so it would have just been a sort of very casual, you know, thing that came around and would have taken it very seriously. And my mum often says, I remember when you came out of that audition room and you went, I got the job. And her heart just sank because she's, she's never a stage mum. And so to her credit, she just let me do that and didn't try and control it, didn't try and insert herself. And so I had this other whole bubble that was all my own.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  And, and you like, and you love that?

• 43:01Speaker 02

  I loved it.

• 43:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay. Awesome.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  I loved it, yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Did, did you immediately feel like you belonged?

• 43:08Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah. I, I. I just loved it. Everyone, they're very playful adults who work on sets.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  You know, and they're.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  It's a child life.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're really fun and they were just so lovely to me.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  And they're like your friends and no, I, I felt very, very, I mean, I was having probably way too much fun. Like when I was 10, I would have the giggles. I often, up until probably my mid twenties, one of my biggest problems was corpsing.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  Breaking, yeah.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Just not being able to stop laughing.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  It's the greatest feeling.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  It's the best feeling. Oh my God. Like you're just laughing. You just can't stop laughing. And so I had no motivation to stop laughing because I was like, this is just so much fun. But you know, you're sending a whole crew into overtime by about an hour. Because you're just, I was having too much fun.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  It's the, it's, it's some of my favorite, because I mean, everyone knows, even if you haven't been in a film set, it's like the laughing in church sort of thing.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  But yeah, on a, on a set when you've got a whole crew looking at you and it's funny the first time, maybe the second, but then as it starts costing time, no one's finding it funny and then it just becomes funnier.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  I've been there. It's beautiful. It's such a beautiful feeling.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  It is. You cannot recreate it. It's incredible. Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  Um, can I ask you about the, the, what we're calling the breakout role? So that was sounding like incredible group of women to be working with there. And I could be guessing here, but I'm guessing that that's pretty rare at that time to have that many women. So director, producer, uh, in such powerful positions. How did that shape you as a young woman yourself, being exposed to that environment and seeing these sort of, uh, role models? I don't know if that's the right word.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Well, I, I guess it, it became hard for me to recognize that there was a problem. In the industry, because anecdotally, what I was seeing was there's no problem here. I don't understand. So it took a while for me to have m- m- meet the leaders in the industry, look at the data and recognise that there was a problem.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Um, because then I worked with Nadia Tass on The Big Steel, who wrote and directed that. And um, Megan Simpson Huberman directed um, Dating the Enemy. I, I, for some reason, female directors hired me a lot.

• 45:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:31Speaker 00

  So when people talk to you about you're like, mm, don't, I think you're actually wrong there. I think, I think we're, we're pretty equal.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  It took a little while. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, now I totally see it.

• 45:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Very much so.

• 45:46Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  So how old were you when The Secret Life of Us came around?

• 45:50Speaker 02

  I was twenty eight, I think. Yeah.

• 45:55Speaker 03

  All right.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Was that a, was that a great experience?

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Um, well, it was nerve wracking because I'd done a TV series when I was in year eleven and it was really poorly received. So it was really hard to sign up to something. And you have to take that leap of faith because you're going to be committed for about three to six months. So I was a bit nervous about doing long form television. It was twenty two episodes, one hour an episode. So it's unheard of.

• 46:26Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  It's just an unheard of format.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  That was the norm though back then. Yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  So I was, no, I was pretty nervous. Um, and um, we did the pilot and then they ordered it. And everyone was fantastic. Working with Samuel Johnson, amazing Sam Johnson, Deb, Deborah Malmun's scripts were great. I love my character. Um, got an enormous amount of um, uh, recognition. Like up until then, I thought I was a sort of successful actor. But when you actually.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  See that people are watching what you're doing, then it's a different sort of successful actor vibe. But I did do something quite cheeky on Sacred Love of Us, which was the minute I got that contract and Justin Clark, one of my best friends, had written me a letter, said, you told me to tell you when I would start to try and have children and I'm telling you now. And I was like, oh shit, oh God, oh God, I probably will want to be a mum one day and I don't want to do it on my own. So I probably should do it now, even though maybe I don't even know if I'm ready, but I should just do it. And then I started lobbying my other best friend, Catherine McClements, like, you've got to have a baby now too. We've all got to do it together. And, and I've got this

• 47:44Speaker 02

  contract. So as an actor, you're like, you're worried that if you get pregnant, one, you won't work for about nine months, then you've got the baby, then you won't, and then you may never work again. That's just the way you think. So I was like, great, I've got this contract for eight months, I'm getting pregnant.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Which was very naughty. And

• 48:07Speaker 00

  Did you feel the need to tell anyone that you were trying to have kids at that point? Or was it just one of those things?

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Like my agent or my other producers? Not at all. I wasn't going to declare it at all. And so we had, we had, we used to have the script read throughs for every block. And finally, we got to one read through and I had to run out twice and vomit.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  And then everyone was, everyone left the, you know, read through, there's about, you know, 30 of us there. And John Edwards, the producer said, do you mind, Claudia, do you mind just staying behind a couple of chat?

• 48:44Speaker 00

  I noticed you didn't like the script at a couple of points. In fact, you hated it so much, you ran out and spewed.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  He said, are you pregnant? I went, what, what, what, what would give you that idea?

• 48:57Speaker 02

  And he said, well, if you are pregnant, this is a great job to have, to be a parent and to have a family. This is a great career and a great job. And he just was magnificent.

• 49:11Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  It was, I am eternally grateful to John for that because I was so scared. But that was, that was beautiful. I will always be grateful to John for that. And they supported me through the whole pregnancy. And then I did Secret Life of Us, series two, breastfeeding all the way through. Um, so I just was having a very different experience to everyone else on Secret Life of Us.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  A very different experience to your character, I imagine, on Secret Life of Us.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I think one of my first storylines was I was having an abortion in the first couple of episodes. And they were so sweet. They rang and it's like, are you going to be all right with this storyline? You know, you're breastfeeding a baby and you're having this abortion story. And I was like, yeah, it's fine, of course. It's fine.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Wow. Did you ever go over to Hollywood or LA or want to go over there and try and like make it, so to speak, you know, over there?

• 50:06Speaker 02

  I never really wanted to, but it was just the thing to do was it was the general pathway. That's what everyone was doing. So it was sort of path of the course and I really did not like it.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  Hmm. Probably would have been like, um, excuse me, where are all the female directors? We've got heaps of them in Australia, but I can't see where they are. Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just wasn't in my comfort zone. I didn't feel, I just didn't have the strength to deal with that sort of environment. And hats off to all the other extraordinary Australian actors who did manage to do that. Like, wow, amazing, brave. But when I think about me as a person, I feel like my career and me as an actor is like 10% of who I am.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  And when you're in a place like LA, I just felt like, well, 10% of me is here, but 90% of me is just gone. I don't even know where she is and where, how would she survive here? Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  That insight into your self, I think is so incredibly wise. Is that something that you have always had? Or is that something that you've sort of recognized as you've gotten older, that kind of awareness of who you are and what matters and? To you.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Oh, look, I often come back to Judy Davis. I bang on about her a lot. She must get so sick. Her ears must be burning.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Bloody child actor that I played a mother back in fricking nineteen eighty six where she stopped banging on about me. Um, she did have a child and I was like, I want to kill that child.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  She's my mum.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  So embarrassing to admit, but I used to sit in my bedroom and go.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  I would just like fantasize, maybe my parents would die in a car accident and Judy Davis will adopt me.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  That's how much I loved her.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, wow.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  So I can only give her credit for that. I sort of downloaded that because that's her approach. Like she, she is so much more about her life, her ethics, her, who she is and the industry is what it is, but she is her own person and um, yeah, I've, I've got a lot from her, but that's one of the,

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  One of the things that, yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  That's such a, such a healthy way to approach it.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Incredible. You um, you mentioned before we started recording and, and I'm going a bit out of order here, sorry. So I'm going back to when you were twenty two. You became a step mum.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  I've got so many questions about that, what that must have been like for a twenty two year old. Uh, and also I wonder if that has an impact on your, on, on keeping work and industry in a certain place because you've, that is such a life broadening thing to experience.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, huge, huge. So um, the TV show that I was referring to that I did in year eleven was called The Last Resort appropriately.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  ABC TV show that totally tanked. But I met my bestest girlfriend, Loane Carmen. And we became best friends, we moved in together. And when she was about a year older than me, when I was eighteen, she said, I'm gonna try to get pregnant. And I was like, oh my, I really hope she doesn't get pregnant, this is crazy. Anyway, she got pregnant. And I went to a lot of her birthing classes together. I lived with her, I was her support person through the birth.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Jez, who then went, this is a really bizarre story, it sounds really bizarre, it wasn't bizarre, it sounds bizarre. Jez, who then became my partner, whatever it was, six years later or something. He bought a motorbike, I put a baby bolt in my car. So I would drive Loane around with my goddaughter. And I was at the birth and everything.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  Then, you know, maybe because he bought a motorbike, she fell in love with someone else and their relationship broke down. When Holiday was two years old.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  And then about two years later, Jez and I, bizarrely, I could never have predicted that, we connected. And so I became the stepmother of my goddaughter.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. Whoa. Okay.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  It's pretty weird, I mean, sadly, like, this is thirty, over thirty years ago, thirty five years ago now. Sadly, I heard through some rumor mill, someone said, oh, Claudia, she stole her best friend's boyfriend. I'm like, oh my god, that's like one of the most beautiful stories of my life. And that's where Love My Way came from, was that I was still close to Loane and Loane's girlfriend. And we all shared Holiday very harmoniously and we'd go on holidays together. And I did not steal my best friend's boyfriend, like he was, he was heartbroken and devastated and it was two years later. But anyway, that's just boring gossip. But yeah, it is, it is.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  And that's where Love My Way came from, because what, what I believe we were doing was the absolute opposite to where I had come from with all the bitterness and the

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Conflict that was happening with my biological father and my stepfather and my mother, within one generation, it was the opposite end of the spectrum. So I felt really proud.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  All very proud that we were able to, to do that.

• 55:55Speaker 03

  And was that, that sounds like it was a very conscious thing, but I don't wanna repeat this situation. Yeah.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Very.

• 56:01Speaker 03

  Wow, that's incredible to be able to not only think that, but enact that at 22. That's remarkable.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, 20, that's the thing, gotta keep remembering, you're 22.

• 56:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:10Speaker 00

  That's wild.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And then therapy 20 years later. So I won't unpick that on air, but yeah, there's stuff to unpick there for sure.

• 56:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  Geez, you're a therapist. That, that, that first couple of sessions where they're hearing all the stories like, wow, this is, let's book you in for the next year.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  Oh, she was wonderful, actually, because she would often go, well, you seem pretty good. I don't think, you don't need to see me, do you? Like, maybe just call if you're, you know, I wouldn't actually see her that often because I, I, anyway, she was great. I just saw her for 10 years.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  What made you wanna see a psychologist?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Um, wow, this is, I'm gonna be very honest here. Um, I was with my GP. I love my GP. I've had the best GP ever. I really recommend anyone listening, having a regular, fantastic, brilliant GP. Find that person because they are an asset in your life. And I was just bawling her eyes out about my relationship. And I just said, I just don't think I can do this anymore. I'm really unhappy. Um, and she said, I think you're getting depressed. This, I would have been, yeah, 42. Um, and you need to see a relationship counselor. So, um, Jazz and I went to see a relationship counselor who became my psychologist. And then four years later, um, our, we parted ways, we separated, Jazz and I.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Um, but yeah, it was four years before that that I was like, oh, I can't do it.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  So she, she initially was helping with our relationship and then just generally, um,

• 57:45Speaker 02

  You know, childhood patterning and all that sort of stuff, which was all brand new to me. And now it's like, it's so obvious what you learn from your childhood and what you then take from your childhood and bring to your intimate relationships.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Did you learn a lot about yourself through the process of relationship counselling?

• 58:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, then it became just one on one. Um, yes, very much so. Um. There's a great quote by Jungal Sartre, the existentialist philosopher, French philosopher. Where's my cigar? Which is, we are our choices, which I would like to have tattooed on my. I don't have a tattoo, but if I tattooed something, I think that's what I learned is that every choice you make, every even tiny choices is who you are. And I think before I went to see a psychologist, I didn't believe I had any choices. I really didn't own that.

• 58:49Speaker 00

  In the sense that you just thought life was just happening to you?

• 58:52Speaker 02

  No, I thought I had to do things. Oh, I have to do that. I don't have a choice. I have to do that. That has to happen. Then you go, no, no, you do have a choice.

• 59:01Speaker 00

  Oh, I see. You can say no.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Yes. And if you are choosing to do that, then you have to be aware that that is what you're choosing to do. Even if you're choosing to think that you have to do that.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Is a choice.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, fascinating.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  To try to say the way.

• 59:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  It's a game changer. I love it. And also, like, I've said it to my children from when they were teenagers. I tried it out on my daughter and I was like, we are our choices. And she was like, oh, wow. Oh, yeah. She took to it. Me, she's like, oh, yeah. All right. Yeah. So if I do this, if I choose to do that. Oh, yeah, that's me. Well, that's me. And she took, she loved it. I ran it past my son and he, he has taken that to heart. He, all his choices, he knows that that's his responsibility. He's there because he made a choice, whatever he's doing at that time.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  How old is he now?

• 59:50Speaker 02

  He's nineteen.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  Nineteen now, wow.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  I read that Jez subsequently said that it was, it took your emotional awareness to make the right decision. That he didn't agree with at the time, but he looks back and says, yeah, she was absolutely right. What's it like to hear that? Or that that must make you feel?

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was very, yeah, that was very generous of him to do that. He, he, he is very generous. Um, yeah, it feels good, but it's also a bit like, well, couldn't you have made the call? Like, why did I have to be the bad guy? And, you know, people turn on you. People, you lose friends and people judge you and it's a very, very painful time. Like, I, it's not, I wouldn't wanna sort of put it out in the world that it's an easy thing to do, to break up a family. It's freaking horrible. And it's been, um, eight, nine years now and it's got a lot better, but it's, even though I think we did it the best way we possibly could and, and we were, we,

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  it was pretty harmonious and it is harmonious, but you don't wanna have to do it. That's for sure.

• 1:00:55Speaker 03

  Um, you don't have to answer this question if it's going to a place that you don't wanna talk about, but I, I am making a, I guess, I don't know if it's a judgment, but a, um, observation from seeing this, that incredible Australian story we were talking about before. But it seems like a divorce can be extremely, um, toxic to a family and can really tear families apart. And the family that was presented in that show is one that is, has a lot of love and respect for everyone in it. I imagine that's a very challenging thing to keep at the centre of what you're, during a divorce or to hold on to. Is there any way you can explain how you go about that process of, of, of keeping it

• 1:01:38Speaker 03

  a level of love and respect there that's, that's appropriate? Does that make sense?

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  Totally. You just have a mantra in your head that is, play the long game. Play the long game.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Play the long game. Play the long game. That's, that's what I just would keep saying to myself, even though, even if it was like nights of insomnia or intense anger or frustration, you just have to go, just visualize that future place where you all wanna be and don't indulge in what you're feeling right now.

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. And do you feel you've gotten to the long game?

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And in spades.

• 1:02:14Speaker 03

  That's so good.

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:15Speaker 03

  That is wonderful. Yeah. That must be just the best feeling.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  It's a pretty good feel.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  And I mean, but also, also with full awareness that everything still may fall apart, you know, there's still lots, plenty of pain coming to all of us. That's just a guarantee. I don't know if you're familiar with Bump, but I did spoiler alert. We did this episode where my character dies and we went into that world with a death doll or death walker called Zenith Varago. And what I am reminded of with that episode is that we don't know what's coming next. And we don't know how long we're going to be here or how long our loved ones are going to be here. Or so, yeah, I'm, I'm happy now, but I'm, there's challenges around the corner for sure.

• 1:03:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  It's not over yet.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  Well, I understand you've been for a long time, been imagining death and thinking about death as a, as a helpful tool.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  As definitely as a help, definitely as a helpful, not in a sort of morbid indulgent way. No, it's a helpful tool just because you feel, just sort of makes you enjoy your day more.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  Essentially what you're doing.

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  I totally get it. I, I went and saw, um, I don't know if you guys know House of Dynamite, the film that's.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  I've heard about it. Yeah, I've got to see that. I've heard it's amazing.

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  It's incredible. I, I saw it a couple of weeks ago and I told mum and mum's first reaction was, oh, why did you go and see that? Cause I'm quite an emotional person and I enjoy that. But she, I think, wants to protect me from feeling sad. So she's like, why did you go and do that? But I came out of it just with this, like, I had so much love and gratitude for everything in my life. And I just wanted to go hug my kids and not, not lose it at them or just be the best possible dad. It really is like this experience of imagining what it would be like for it all to be gone was the most liberating thing for. And I think I'm still on a bit of a high weirdly from it.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  That's wonderful.

• 1:04:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. Is that kind of what it's like for you? The, the idea of.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  Totally. Yeah. It just allows you to get into the gratitude flow, I think is what it's called.

• 1:04:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  Without diminishing whatever you're going through in that day or minimizing things, it does just put it in perspective.

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a beautiful blow.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  But I have to, you know, spoiler alert, if I am given a terminal diagnosis tomorrow. I will probably have a tantrum and behave appallingly. I'm what the fuck? I'm not supposed to die. I'm supposed to live till I'm 90. What the? I'll probably behave like a brat and a child.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Spoiler alert.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  All of this, you know, I think I've been coaching myself into, you know, openness to these sorts of things, but I'm not saying that I won't behave like an absolute twat.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  How did you come across that as a thing to do? Like, what inspired you to start thinking about your mortality?

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  Um, I don't know how I came across a book called The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, which is actually a really esoteric tome, um, which I definitely did not read, but I thought I read.

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  I flipped back through it since and I don't remember any of this and I didn't even understand it. But I got through enough of it to, to read the chapter or the passage on, um,

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  reflecting on your mortality every day. And I just remember sitting on the, I don't know where I was, on a park bench somewhere. I just remember putting it down and just visualizing that and it just blowing my mind. And it just stayed with me from, yeah, from 21. And, um, yeah, not sitting there imagining people crying at your funeral and what music will you play and all this sort of stuff. But it was about, okay, if it ended tomorrow, how do you feel? I have gone to even weirder places lately, maybe shouldn't even share it. But.

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  Hmm, like what?

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  I just didn't share it, like what?

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  Go on.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  It's like showing us a trailer that we can't see the film for.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  This might seem really weird, so I'm just gonna go there. But when you're on an aeroplane and the aeroplane hit the turbulence, where I go, okay, plane's going down.

• 1:06:27Speaker 00

  Oh, you assume it is.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I lean in, this is it.

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  Dying now, just so I can like push it a bit. This is it happening and really.

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  Oh, to try and feel it.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  Try to sit in that place and go, okay, if this is it now, what am I thinking? How am I coping? Am I gonna start screaming and crying? Or am I just gonna breathe and go, yeah, I knew this was, this was happening. This was on the cards. This is not a big surprise. So I do that.

• 1:06:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  And, and what do, do you start screaming at it? How do you watch your, where do you go?

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  No, but I mean, the plane doesn't go down. So I mean, again, it's just a, it's, it's just a theory.

• 1:07:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's kind of practicing.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  A game I'm playing where I'm practicing and I probably will be terrible when the moment, the moment happens. I'm a weirdo.

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  Wow, that's fascinating.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  So one of the things that's always really interested me is, uh, Josh and I have a, um, history of sort of mental health through our family. And just from this conversation, it sounds like you do as well. Do you know how far back that goes? Um, and you've, you mentioned schizophrenia and bipolar. Interested to hear your story on that or your, your position with the mental health in your family.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  I did an episode of Who Do You Think You Are?

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  Which, uh, I assumed I would get a whole lot of stories that reflected my current families of my auntie and exes everywhere.

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  It was unbelievable, the incredibly healthy, constructive, resilient ancestors that I have. Which I found really comforting. Um, and I don't know of any others other than my dad and my brother.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  What is your experience of, um, schizophrenia? I know your brother, you're saying schizophrenic as well. How is it, um, loving someone with, with the condition of schizophrenia?

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  Um, I work very hard to try not to imagine exactly what it would be like to be in Rupert's head. That is too painful, but also it is what he knows and that's what he's lived with. And he is the best he's ever been now, which is extraordinary. So things have improved. So I just focus on that and improve to a place where I couldn't have thought was imaginable. Um, and then even with my father, there were long periods of time where he was wonderful and fantastic and we had really good quality, lovely, calm time together. And then he would have another episode.

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  So a lot of it is um balancing medications and getting that access to medication. Um, but it, what, what, what I do find extraordinary about mental health and neurodiversity and that space is how do you extract the person from the illness?

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  And even, even people, friends I know who are being diagnosed with ADHD sometimes later in life. I see that they, if they take away the ADHD symptoms, it's like, well, who am I?

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  Which bit is me?

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's so tough. Yeah.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a fascinating question to answer.

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, and it's then managing the impact that it has on people around you.

• 1:10:11Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  And just being, declaring it, I guess, and being transparent about it and um is the best thing.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  Um, with my father, though, he, even when he was perfectly sane, there was no, no space to discuss when he was completely insane.

• 1:10:34Speaker 00

  Right, okay.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  So there's no reconciliation, no declaring, no management, no acknowledgement of, oh, I'm sorry, what you had to go through or, in fact, this is one of my favorite memories with my dad. He had this, I used to go in there and have cups of tea with him. His cup of, his cup of tea said, insanity is inherited, you get it from your children.

• 1:11:01Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  Which I truly believe he thought.

• 1:11:07Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  I truly believe he thought I sent him insane.

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  Wow. Geez, that's a lot.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Speaker 03

  To take on.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  Well, I don't take it on. I didn't take it on.

• 1:11:17Speaker 03

  Okay, but okay, good.

• 1:11:18Speaker 02

  I mean, I may have like took it on tiny bit, but.

• 1:11:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, but not the weight of it. Yeah.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  No, but it's a really interesting insight into his head. He couldn't reconcile or get any sort of perspective on who or what he was and how he was behaving. No perspective, no insight.

• 1:11:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, so we've learnt a bit about your father today, a very complicated person who's no longer around. Um, if you don't mind me asking, what was that like for you for him to no longer be here?

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  Um, I was having lunch with a girlfriend when I got a call from the hospital saying that he had died.

• 1:11:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  Um, I had a great, like, six years where I was his primary carer.

• 1:12:06Speaker 03

  While you were working as well and.

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, wow.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Um, well, not full time. The government have incredible at home care packages and stuff. He was on a level four aged care package, which was great. And he was very, very stubborn about staying at home, which is what he wanted, which I was really happy to be able to make sure that that happened. Unfortunately, about two years before he died, he had another episode. So he believed that all the money that he was accumulating through the aged care package was his and he should be able to buy a car and that I was taking his money and it was all that same episodic stuff. Terrible.

• 1:12:41Speaker 03

  That is so hard. I cannot even imagine.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  It was awful. And he is, would get very, very angry, like white hot, livid anger and scream and stuff. So I, when that happened, I was like, I'm out. I can't, I'm not, I can't do this. So the last two years were awful because he was in an institution and he was calling me and saying, you put me in here, it's your fault. You need to get me out. I did not put you into an institution. That's, that was the acute, um, acute mental health unit came to take him, um, to, to have him in care. Um, so I didn't get to have any time with him in the last two years of his life. Um, and, but I was called to go and, um, identify his body.

• 1:13:30Speaker 02

  Because he had a heart attack at home, the carers were there. Then he was taken to the hospital, but for some reason, I don't know how this all works. The police were there. I was like, why are the police here? Is this a crime scene? They hadn't determined the cause of his death. And I was instantly like, I think I've killed him.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  It was really weird. Well, anytime, you know, when you see the police trap behind you go, oh, no, I don't have my seatbelt on. Oh, no, I don't have my licence. You just instantly feel guilty. And the police, I was like, oh, this is weird. Anyway, it wasn't that weird. It's just procedural, just for anyone who this happens to, it's just normal. And they were lovely police officers. And so I had to go into a room and identify his body. And so the body is covered. Have you ever had to do that?

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  Oh, not identify, but have seen it.

• 1:14:24Speaker 03

  Just around grandparents and stuff, but not identify, but yeah.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  Um, so there's a lovely person in the room who said, are you going to be all right? And we're going to take the cover off and you'll see your father. And I, everything that everyone has told me about dead people is that they look incredibly beautiful. Have you heard that?

• 1:14:43Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  Oh, you haven't.

• 1:14:45Speaker 00

  I haven't heard that.

• 1:14:46Speaker 02

  Oh, I've heard they look.

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  Like peaceful?

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  Very peaceful, peaceful. Yeah, and younger and just beautiful to be around a dead body. They pulled the cover back. He still had the gadget in his mouth and I just thought he's going to open his eyes and just start screaming at me. Like I still saw him as very angry. Anyway, um, it was very sad and I, you know, cried a lot, but um, essentially it was great that he was at peace. And um, yeah, he, he, I can't believe he lived as long as he did with the way he was.

• 1:15:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  Um, living.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  How old was he when he died?

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Um, eighty one.

• 1:15:28Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:15:30Speaker 03

  God, that must be so hard also too.

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  To go from that beautiful relationship to those last two years and then,

• 1:15:42Speaker 00

  I don't know, to be left with, where do I place this now? Where do I place these last two years?

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't have any struggle with that at all. I just feel so grateful to him for fighting for us. Like a lot of dads, if they're in situations like that, they just go. And lots of children just don't have very absent fathers. Like, he really fought to build a property and give us motorbikes and all this beautiful, you know, we used to go down river trips with canoes and that beautiful connection to the bush. And he really claimed us and I'm really grateful for that and that he was so interested in us. And I understand he was hurt and I understand where that pain came from. I know I wasn't a part of that.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  I also am very grateful for those six years we had where I, if I was having a bad day, I could just go down and sit in his flat and have a cup of tea, put his washing on and listen to classical music. And he was really at peace. He was really loving it. I really had a great six years with him. Last two years, hideous. The whole probate thing was hideous because when you have a lot of mental health issues, you write a lot of wills and it's a nightmare to unpick. So that was, that was the worst. Having, because I was an executor, but that was, that sucked.

• 1:17:07Speaker 00

  To say the will.

• 1:17:09Speaker 02

  Oh, there's so many different wills. And they're all coming out and trying to explain it to, because the person who has to determine probate has to try and unpick and understand this amazing complicated scenario with all these different.

• 1:17:25Speaker 00

  So was the will, because he kept changing it or kept updating it?

• 1:17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  So does the, does, is, sorry, this is getting in the weeds, but is it like the final will that they do is the one that is on it?

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  It's so complicated because the, well.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  The wills don't make any sense. And then you sort of.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  But you then have to prove that they weren't of sound mind. And it's, yeah, it's a. And I had, I had to do that by myself because my brothers can't help me. And so that was probably the hardest part of it all. So I really could probably let him go once that was all settled. Because that was, there was a lot of, um, yeah, historical pain and anger in those documents.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  Um, which I, I, in the Australian story, I've, after he died, I was like, oh, my God, he lodged a will in nineteen eighty six. Oh, this is going to be like a love letter from the grave. I'm going to get to see what he wrote. And he, and he wrote all this horrible stuff about me and my brother. When I was sixteen, I was like, oh, wow, I thought, I thought you really loved us then. Anyway, whatever. It's just his illness. It's fine.

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, that's a good time to separate the, the condition from the person.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  Totally, totally. It was just a psychosis. And, um, yeah, so it was a lot, there's a lot to unpack. But it was all really healthy and great. And I feel like there's a lot of closure there. And a lot of really beautiful memories and a lot, I feel very grateful for a lot of the good, good stuff.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  How wonderful you got those years.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I do understand that he inherited a whole lot of childhood.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Traumatic stuff.

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Um, that I, you know, couldn't have appreciated when I was young.

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  Um, yeah. If it's not too much of an intrusive question, when, when did you first sort of, or the family first noticed that Rupert had schizophrenia? And what did that look like?

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  I vividly remember like it was yesterday. I must have been about

• 1:19:31Speaker 02

  four years old, I reckon. And I, I don't think, I hadn't started school yet. But Rupert had started school and he came running into the living room in a state and going, I've got to find the, I've got to find the golden money, I've got to find the golden money. And he was looking for the golden money under the couch.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:48Speaker 02

  And, um.

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

  And the golden money wasn't a thing that existed at that point? It wasn't a, no, it's just.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  I, in my mind, even as a four year old, I was like, there's no golden money.

• 1:19:56Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  And there's no one at school that has asked him to find the golden money.

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  But literally nothing else, that just that one incident. And then very unusually, he was diagnosed very late in life, usually schizophrenia presents, um, through like when you're a teenager and often is set off by smoking marijuana. My brother never smoked marijuana, never did drugs.

• 1:20:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  Um, maybe he, he was managing it as well as he could and then it just, um, he, I, I, I think as, as you go into adulthood and you have to try and hold down jobs and, and you watch all of your friends, you know, have relationships and children. And I think he, it just all started, um, he just wasn't able to, I think it's called, you fail to take off or there's a term for it.

• 1:20:49Speaker 00

  Launch or?

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Launch.

• 1:20:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, mm.

• 1:20:50Speaker 02

  So just failed to launch.

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  And then around the age of thirty, he was diagnosed.

• 1:20:57Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  But, um.

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  And by that stage, how was it affecting his life?

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, he went out with some friends when he was like in his early twenties and went gambling and won. And then he sort of became a gambler. Um, so that was a real negative spiral. Um, and not, not being able to manage friendships or loneliness, um, then not being able to hold down a job. And then it was voices, the voices started. He has two characters.

• 1:21:29Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  Um, the magician, David Copperfield is in his head and is always threatening to feed him to the fishes. And then he has another woman called Rebecca Swirfty Wirfty.

• 1:21:42Speaker 00

  Wow, good name.

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  Amazing name.

• 1:21:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  And I, I, I was, I, I am an ambassador for Wayside Chapel and that was, gave me the greatest insights into how to. Maintain my relationship with my brother because I went through lots of phases of, as we all do, trying to fix him, trying to fix him. So I'd see him coming towards me and he's just staring at the pavement. I go, hey Rupert, try walking and looking up at the clouds, you know, you might feel better. Shut up.

• 1:22:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, best intentions.

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  Best intentions. Oh, hey Rupert, I've bought you a pass to go to yoga. Go to these yoga classes. They'll make you feel great. And he doesn't go and you go, I tried, I tried to help you and you didn't go. The yoga classes, if you went to yoga classes, you wouldn't have to skip running. You know, you're just trying. And then when I went to Wayside Chapel, they, their motto there is, the visitors are people to be met, not problems to be solved. And that just gave me this permission to go, okay, Rupert is not a problem and I'm not going to find solve him. All I am going to do is meet him and be present. So that really helped our relationship enormously. That I don't have expectations. I'll just go, I love you, give

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  you a hug, hang out. You don't want me to be here? Okay, I'm gone. You want to visit? I'll come and visit. It's, it's actually so much easier that it feels like you're sort of cheating. The other stuff's so much harder.

• 1:23:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, especially if you've grown up your whole life thinking you've taken on a sort of responsibility that no one's given you, that you think you need to solve these problems or fix people or situations, to be told you actually take the day off. You actually just chill out.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to retrain your brain.

• 1:23:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  You're saying that you didn't get to have a conversation with your dad around, there's no conversation around the condition. Do you get to have that conversation with Rupert? Do you, when, when he's going well, do you get to talk to him about the impact on you or how he's going?

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  No, no, no, he's, he's more acute than that. No, and that would be just annoying, I think. I mean, I did, I said to him once, oh Rebecca Swervy, what, what does she look like? Because I imagine she looked like Jessica Rabbit from, you know.

• 1:23:57Speaker 00

  Rebecca Rabbit.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  Rebecca Rabbit? That's Rebecca Swervy, it looks like that to me. I was like, what is, what is she?

• 1:24:03Speaker 00

  Lucky Rupert.

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. I was hoping there'd be some perks for him. I was like, what does Rebecca Swervy look like? Does she wear high heels? No, no, no, no, flat shoes. I'm like, okay. Does she wear a dress? No, no, a suit. I'm like, oh, does she have long hair? No, no, she's got short hair. She's a, she's a, she's not real.

• 1:24:22Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  So I was like, okay, shut up. Stop asking questions.

• 1:24:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:27Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so interesting. So can I ask about your time at the work you do with, what, Wayside?

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  Wayside Chapel, yeah.

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  That, what is volunteering and helping others? What, what does that mean to you and what role does it play in your life?

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  Wayside, Wayside Chapel is in King's Cross. So it was part of my childhood. It was a place that I used to go to. They gave sex education and I was a bridesmaid there when I was ten years old. So I knew about this place.

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:56Speaker 02

  And that's when I learnt about this incredible initiative where on Christmas Day, which is one of the saddest days for a lot of people and the highest suicide rate, I understand, they close off the whole street and Christmas Day is a party and everyone gets fed and singing and presents. And so initially I started volunteering Christmas Day or or Boxing Day, the clean up afterwards, or just go, that was one of the things we always did as a family is go there for Christmas Day. For the 10 o'clock service and then go and have lunch. So that's what it looks like. Or otherwise, I, I can, I volunteered on the front desk,

• 1:25:38Speaker 02

  which is, you know, you, you're dressing people, getting clothes out of the, you know, getting underpants, bras, shampoo. So turning on the showers, that sort of stuff. It's a, it's a drop in place, a place where people can get cheap meals and it's just a place where you're not judged and you, if you're sleeping rough, somewhere to hang out.

• 1:25:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  Well, we feel bloody delighted that you made a choice to be here today. It means so much. We've kind of for a long time, we've been saying, imagine if we got caught in carbon, and it's happened. We can't believe it. You are so amazing. We love you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks for having me.

• 1:26:13Speaker 03

  Thanks, buddy.

• 1:26:14Speaker 02

  I did, I did listen to the Hannah Ferguson one and, and that was actually the, the tipping point for me. I was like, oh, if she can be that generous, I just feel like I have to reciprocate and join the conversation too. It's, we've all got to join the conversation.

• 1:26:30Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:26:31Speaker 00

  Huge thank you to Hannah Ferguson there.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  And, and your conversation with her, the way you talk to people. It's really a pleasure to be here.

• 1:26:38Speaker 03

  Thank you very much.

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

  Our pleasure.

• 1:26:39Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:26:40Speaker 03

  Cheers.

• 1:26:47Speaker 00

  Well, Hugh Jackman, Julia Roberts, Meryl Streep, please listen to the Hannah Ferguson ep and maybe you also want to come on to the Imperfects. Seems to be a pretty good way to get people to come on. Wow, what a woman. It was so nice just hanging out with her for a couple of hours. What a, yeah, I'd never met her before, it was just awesome.

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  So what I'd love to talk about is something that I I've chosen because for two reasons, I think it is probably my greatest challenge in life and I think it will be for so many other people as well. At age 42, Claudia Karvan said she she said she waited too long, but she eventually saw a psychologist and in that session, a psychologist said to her, you need to stop trying to fix people. And I mean, what came across to me, I don't know if you guys felt this as well, but in accepting that, accepting it wasn't her job to fix people around her, it didn't mean that she cared less, it just meant that she cared in a healthier way. And that was huge for me. Like, there was a, there was a few minutes throughout the interview where I really had to, I was thinking, my gosh, this is just the energy that she has around talking about the people she loves and how she's not there to fix them.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  I need to, I need to really, I was inspired by it, but I need to really learn from this. I mean, it started for us at a young age in our life, I, with our, we've talked about our sibling who struggled with an eating disorder, but I, a few years ago, became an ambassador for EDFA, which is Eating Disorders Families Australia. And I went and did a talk for them last year and that they're there to support family members of people with eating disorders. And I actually asked our mum and said, what's one thing you would say to people who are going through what we went through more than two decades ago? And mum said to me, I just wish I knew back then it wasn't my job to fix her. And that has since become a challenge for me, as I spoke about this time last year, having a child on the spectrum.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  I don't want to fix them, but I do want to fix the world around them a lot of the time. I do find myself wanting to fix the situations around them in order to really help them, which I know is a big part of my job as their parent, but it also. That is my big challenge. What can I fix and what can't I fix and what is healthy behaviour, what isn't? And my situation is obviously different to Claudia's and I think anyone parenting a child on the spectrum, but everyone's situation is different. I was writing a lot of stuff over the holidays about this experience of parenting neurodivergent child. And I actually, I actually wrote something which was inspired by Claudia, the chat we had with her. You know, it's sort of like trying to make it my mantra for this year. And I want to,

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  I just want to read it out because I feel like it would be helpful to people who are trying to do the same thing. And I'll give you some examples of what that looks like for me. That actually literally happened last night. So what I wrote was, and this is my effort to remind myself I don't need to fix everything around them. I wrote, "You can care deeply without intervening, love without rescuing, and stay connected without taking control." That's kind of my mantra for all of them. So you can care deeply without intervening, you can love without rescuing, and you can stay connected without taking control. So my aim is to care deeply, to love and to stay connected as opposed to intervene, rescue and take control.

• 1:30:01Speaker 00

  I mean, I think that applies to any loved one who might be struggling in some way.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And so the example I will give you, and I'm just, I've chosen the most recent one. There are so many I could choose where I've tried to apply this, but as our child, it's, I will do an update on this at some point throughout this year because they have come on in leaps and bounds. And with that confidence they're gaining, they're now stepping out into the world, which is wonderful to see, also terrifying for us as parents to see them step out into the unknown. But they have decided they wanted to play cricket and join a cricket team, which was very exciting because they love their cricket, but also terrifying because it's entering a whole new world they don't really know about. And it means, last night they went to cricket training for the first time, which was, I felt as nervous as I did on their first day of school.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  Because cricket is basically, you pretty much turn up and you fail. There's so much failure in cricket, it's ridiculous. And there's so much uncertainty, which is both things. For, I won't say all kids on the spectrum, but for our kids, that's something that they really struggle with. And tho- those three things I said, so I'll give you examples of of the three things I had to do last night. So the first one, you can care deeply without intervening. So first thing that happens is one of the coaches comes introduce ourselves and I said, okay, everyone go and bowl and there are no balls left for our child. And the coach said, you can wax with that person there. Wax means share. So the temptation was to run over and say, oh, excuse me, you need to share with the child because in my head, I'm thinking,

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  well, they won't have the confidence to say.

• 1:31:37Speaker 03

  What's wax?

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  First of all, what is wax? I want to work it out. How do I then?

• 1:31:40Speaker 03

  Wax is a cricket term.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Wax is a cricket term. I've never understood why, but wax is when you share cricket balls to someone in the nets. That's just a, um, coach said that our child had no idea it was talking about. And I was about 20 metres away, but I heard it and I wanted to run over and intervene and just fix everything. So it was okay. And I just remember, and I was thinking, no, you can, you're here. Like that's showing that you care deeply. You're here. You're within range for them to come and ask for help if they need it. Just don't intervene. The second one, uh, love without rescuing. They got hit, and Josh will know this feeling. They got hit on the inside thigh, about second ball I faced, got hit on the inside thigh. It is, it's not going to break your leg, but the pain is.

• 1:32:18Speaker 03

  Stinger.

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:32:20Speaker 03

  So like a corky, it's more of a slap on the inner thigh.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Followed by a corky feeling. It is awful.

• 1:32:27Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  And my reaction was to run down and say, this is going to be okay. It hurts now, but if you can get back up and keep going, it'll be okay. Or do you want to have a rest? And then it was just unfollowed. It was like, I was so nervous about how they went batting because that would decide, I think, how their experience was of cricket training. Um, but I thought, no, no, love, I'm here. Again, I'm showing love. We'll talk about it in the car on the way home, but I don't need to rescue them right now. And sure enough, they managed to get through it. And we had a long conversation about in the car on the way home, how much it hurts and how awful it is. The last one, um, there was a drill that took place. They said, now we're going to do this. And I could see they had no idea what was going on. I felt sick because I was thinking this is, for me, I would sort of, I'd go, well, I'll go to the back of the line and I'll watch it when I'll do it.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  And, but I could see the stress building with our child. But I thought, no, stay connected and don't take control. And stay connected was to me, stand where they could see that I could, I was watching and I had them just in case. Um, so we were connected. They could see me, but I didn't take control of the situation because taking control for me was going over and explaining it, saying to the coach, can you explain again? So getting in the car last night, I was so proud of them. Um, so proud of them for, for getting through it. It was really, really challenging.

• 1:33:41Speaker 00

  Was it because it's you're going against all your instincts?

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. But it was, it was not trying to fix. It was just, it was caring in a healthier way. Um, and they said, uh, they've learnt when they do something really incredible like this, um, that they could get a McFlurry. And, uh, we went to McDonald's getting McFlurry and I thought, you know what? I think I've earned one too.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  We both sat there reading McFlurrys going.

• 1:34:03Speaker 00

  Exhausted.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  I said to them, I am so proud of you. And in my head, I went, and I'm so proud of you too. Because you are, that was, that was not fixing. That was caring.

• 1:34:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  In, in a, like, like I said at the top there, with, with Claudia, it was, um, I didn't mean that I cared less. It meant that I was caring in, caring in a healthier way. And I think healthier for them as well.

• 1:34:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, nice.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Um, yeah. So, so, so I'll just, I'll read that again to everyone, just not the whole thing.

• 1:34:31Speaker 00

  I'll just finish with reading the transcript from the episode.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  Um, so just the, the, the, these are the words I'll leave you. So for anyone who is trying also to, to try not to fix someone, but just care in a healthier way. You can care deeply without intervening. You can love without rescuing and you can stay connected without taking control.

• 1:34:49Speaker 00

  Absolutely. I felt at the moment she walked into the room that you can also.

• 1:34:55Speaker 03

  Thrive in life yourself.

• 1:34:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:34:59Speaker 03

  Alongside that.

• 1:35:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:00Speaker 03

  Cause for me, I, I, I think a lot of the time, I think a lot of people who listen to this show, maybe, or at least I have felt like this, that you've got to fix all, as you said, you've got to fix all, not just fix other people, but fix all the things in your own life, um, to have a good life, to be happy. But I loved this sort of, the person in front of me seemed to be accepting of all of life as a complicated thing that you can still really thrive and have so much joy in your life.

• 1:35:27Speaker 00

  Hmm. That's a good point.

• 1:35:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. And sometimes when you're around real artists, I feel like artists, really good artists are especially good at this, of taking it all in and building an amazing life around it. And it was really inspiring to be in her presence. And I think what you've just described sums it up on an everyday level. But the outcome of that and the person I saw was one who was just full of life and it was a joy to be around her.

• 1:35:51Speaker 00

  So true.

• 1:35:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:52Speaker 00

  Thank you, Claudia. Thanks, Hugh. That's really, I mean, I find that so helpful as well. I'm going to get you to repeat that to me again later.

• 1:35:59Speaker 03

  And I should say actually that on exactly what you just talked about, M is going to do an episode in a few weeks on radical acceptance, which is exactly this concept. Um, and it's going to be an absolute cracker.

• 1:36:11Speaker 00

  No pressure, M.

• 1:36:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:12Speaker 00

  Um, well, thank you, Claudia. Thank you, Hugh. Um, and very out of context, there is no easy segue for this, but we've got something, we've put together a quiz of sorts, um, that you can, you can go into the, into the show notes of this episode. And basically you can find out which of me, Hugh, or Josh, or Dr. M, which of the four of us you most connect to, like who are you most like, I guess?

• 1:36:38Speaker 03

  Have you done the quiz?

• 1:36:39Speaker 00

  I have done it.

• 1:36:40Speaker 03

  Who'd you get?

• 1:36:41Speaker 00

  Please tell me you got you. I got Ryan. Yeah. I'm so similar to Ryan. It's from Rove, it turns out. Yeah. So weird. Um, so yeah, so you can go and go to the, go to the link in the show notes. Uh, it's quite, it's, it's serious, but it's also silly. It's fun. Um, but, uh, yeah, hopefully you enjoy that and we'll be back next week. That's good. Ciao.

• 1:37:06Speaker 03

  If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber-only apps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay any more, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, where we're our own people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 131114.