Bron Lewis - Is It Me or Postnatal Anxiety?

What do you do when your 3 day-old-baby just doesn’t wake up? 💌Join 5,000+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy Motherhood is really hard. And Bron Lewis isn’t afraid to talk about it (anymore). Joining us in the Vulnerabilitea House, Bron answers the question ‘when was a time you genuinely needed help and were you able to ask for it?’, and recounts the worst week of her life. Deals with the devil, post-natal anxiety, and post-natal depression, Bron is incredibly vulnerable with Hugh and Ryan, sharing how the love from friends, professional help, and medication allowed her to return to herself. Bron, it was a delight. To watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link - https://youtu.be/qc9ZNO6VpeY 0:00 – We’re all best friends / fathers / daughters 8:51 – When was a time you genuinely needed help? 18:44 – Long nights, relentless days 25:42 – Socially accepted punishment 33:36 – Using pain to drown out the noise 40:50 – Obviously, I can do it all 45:44 – It doesn’t have to be this hard 54:55 – On day 3, he didn’t wake up 1:07:27 – The worst week of her life 1:22:54 – This should feel good, shouldn’t it? 1:33:01 – The aftermath 🚨If you, or someone you know, is struggling with postpartum depression or anxiety, these are a few great resources PANDA - 1300 726 306 ForWhen - 1300 24 23 22 Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636 📖 Things to read I’m Not Mad (Anymore) by Bron Lewis - https://bit.ly/3ObBgGQ 🎟️ Things to go see Bron’s Comedy Show, Chaos - https://bit.ly/4aabRWz 🎧Things to listen to Chains by Tina Arena - https://bit.ly/4arb1DI Work Hates podcast - https://bit.ly/4arbdCW Your Two Drunk Aunties podcast - https://bit.ly/4cnJndj Good Sheilas podcast - https://bit.ly/4rkGxun 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, (with the new cards!) purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here - http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Bron Lewis, we are so happy to have you here.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  I was walking the streets with my newborn and she was just screaming into my chest. It needs to walk. I was just getting angrier and angrier because no one warned me. And I saw this pregnant woman sitting at a bus stop screamed, "This is really [bleep] hard." And she said, "I'm not pregnant," which wasn't great. Now Ari was born, I get home with him and everything's great. And then on day three, he didn't wake up. And my mum was there and she like lifted up one of his eyelids and his eye rolled back.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  And she said, "You just need to go to the hospital right now." Hands down the worst week of my entire life. I made up 10 million deals with the devil when I was in there. It's like, "If you get us out of here and he wakes up, I will get off social media. I will play hide and seek with the kids every day." I went to the doctor and I expected it to be really quick. "Do you think that you are a good mother?"

• 1:06Speaker 01

  And that just ripped the lid off my biggest fear. And I said, "No." And she said, "Well, I'm here to tell you that you are, but you're going through something harder than it needs to be because you've got postnatal anxiety." And it's very clear to me and it doesn't have to be this hard.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  This is the Vulnerability House.

• 1:41Speaker 00

  So nice to be in the Vulnerability House with someone who could actually, now I'm just thinking about it. Ryan, if you and I got together and we decided to have a child, this could be our child.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Wow, what makes you say that?

• 1:53Speaker 01

  We look exactly the same, all three of us.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  I don't know, I mean, I wanna say I know what you mean to be supportive, but I actually don't know what you mean.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  You're a comedian, I'm a teacher.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Mmm.

• 2:06Speaker 00

  Sitting in front of us, we have a teacher.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  Turned comedian.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Now I can genuinely say, "I know what you mean."

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it doesn't quite make sense though because just two parents don't have a child that has a combination of their jobs.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Don't poke holes in it, it was your idea.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And also I did, I guess in my defence, I thought you meant from like a physical point of view. And I was like, "That's really unfair on Bron."

• 2:30Speaker 01

  I don't have glasses, guys.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  That's the only thing you guys have in common.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  And I don't have them.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  No, you're right. I am an ex-teacher and I am now a comedian. So yes, if you guys were to manipulate science somehow and have a baby together, yes, I would be it.

• 2:45Speaker 00

  We could have a, like, we could have a great hangout where

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  we talk about teaching, you talk about comedy and we just like take it in turns to do that.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  And I call you both dad. Is that, is that what we want?

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Let's, let's try that. I mean, this is the perfect opportunity to try. Can you actually call me dad on this?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Okay, dad. Hi, dad. How does that feel?

• 3:05Speaker 02

  It feels good.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, dad.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Genuinely feels great.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Oh, good. Wow. This is the episode where we've changed your mind of whether having kids or not.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  You could have a 39-year-old woman.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  If I, if I could get a Bron Lewis, I would do it in a second.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  That's very kind.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  Okay, so, so for those of you who don't know Bron Lewis, so as we just mentioned, having been a high school teacher for over a decade and now a mother of three, Bron Lewis believes that she is incapable of feeling shame. Co-winner of the National Raw Comedy Competition in 2022, Bron stormed the comedy scene with her show Probably. It's a wonderful name, by the way. And was nominated for the Melbourne International Comedy Festival Best Newcomer in 2023. Bron was a writer on The Project and is a regular panelist on Thank God You're Here. Bron is also the co-host of three podcasts, Good Sheerers, Work Hates and Your Two Drunk Aunties. This year, Bron will be appearing with Ursula Carlson in Ursula's new comedy sketch show,

• 4:05Speaker 00

  as well as touring her own new comedy show, Chaos, around Australia and New Zealand. Bron's new book, I'm Not Mad, in brackets anymore, again, we're very good at names, was released in Feb of this year. What makes Bron so special is her ability to turn vulnerability into connection. Her comedy feels like a conversation with your best friend. She's a storyteller who turns life's mess into something joyful. We are so happy to have you here.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. What a lovely intro. I feel like I know you guys already. So when I've, well, I spoke to you yesterday on the phone.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Um, so I know Hugh well enough and, but I've only seen you on the ads and listened to you on the podcast. So I feel like I know you guys. So I feel, this feels really comfy for me.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  So I feel like we're all best friends slash fathers, daughters.

• 4:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. And we are missing our uncle, Josh. Who is, um, Who he's at home, I'm surprised we can't hear him. He's the loudest vomiter in the world and that's what he's doing in this moment right now.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't know we were all going to be throwing compliments around so quickly.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  No, he's apparently very loud and congratulations. But he had a chicken sandwich that wasn't maybe not the right one to have.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Poor fellow. Poor fellow. Yeah, that is awful. Sad he's not here, but we will, we will charge on.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, we will. I will bring, I will bring Josh energy.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  So you're gonna make Bron cry?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yep, good. As long as, as long as someone makes me cry today, I'll know I've spent time with my fathers.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  It all makes sense to me.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Okay, so it's a vulnerability house. I'm so keen to get into this, so I wonder unless you wanted to.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  Well, the book, the book is.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Talk anymore?

• 5:47Speaker 00

  No, this is, I'm elevating from small talk to meaningful compliment talk.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Promo talk.

• 5:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess it is, but well, it absolutely is, but the book is, is brilliant.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  It's, it's as vulnerable as it is funny. So this is, I'm extra excited for you to be in the tea house with us.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Thanks, thanks. We've all got the same manager, Beck, who said to me early in, surely after signing me, she said, I think you've got a book in you. And I was like, okay. Get it out. And I thought, okay, well, I will, I could do that. Like, how hard could it be to write a book?

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Said no one ever.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  And so I said, yeah, okay, I'll do it. But it was really hard to write. And I didn't write it in order that you would read it because I had to pick which days, which days I was strong enough to write certain things. I'd be like, yeah, today's the, today I can only write the bit about, you know, how I screamed at a lady.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  I screamed at a pregnant lady about how hard it was because no one warned me. I remember yelling across, I was like walking with my newborn, I only had one at this point, walking with the newborn. And she was just screaming into my chest and she's screaming, and I saw this pregnant woman sitting at a bus stop and over four lanes of traffic. Because I was like, in this walk, I was just getting angrier and angrier because no one warned me. Like so many people were like, oh, when it gets constipated, you just do this. Like everyone had a solution. All these things that didn't seem to matter. Like I was like, I don't consta, who cares, you know, but the, oh, you'll never sleep again. I feel like I needed that warning. So I was like walking the streets with this baby screaming, screaming. I saw this woman, this pregnant woman sitting at a bus stop. And I was like, that I'm not gonna do her dirty.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  So I just screamed over four lanes of traffic, over Sydney Road, screamed, I, I just said, this is really fucking hard. Don't go to work, go home, go home and lie down because you will never sleep again. And I remember vividly, like I wasn't even breathing. I was so upset, but I thought that she was gonna be like, thank you so much. Well, that's a beautiful warning.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  That's so thoughtful of you.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Thank you. And she said, I'm not pregnant, which wasn't great. Which wasn't great.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Did that really happen?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't great. It was a bad moment for everyone. I was underslept and she just was sitting in a way that made it look, she was nine months pregnant and she wasn't. And I'm sorry to her.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Shit.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, bad, wasn't great. So writing that, I was like, I could see the funny sign in that. So there's like funny moments where I'm like, oh, I'm obviously the butt of the joke. Like I humiliated myself and that poor lady so much. But then there were other days where I was like, I have to get this chapter out, which was a day where I was like, which was much harder than that. Um, and so it comes in, it was a tricky book to write, but I'm so glad I wrote it because it was a book that I desperately needed to read when I was struggling.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Hmm. Brilliant. Okay. We have these cards. So Brian, you know how the vulnerability house works, I think. So for anyone who doesn't, the vulnerability house is basically a place where people come and they can be vulnerable. It's a safe space. We have a deck of cards available to purchase at theimperfects.com.au. No big deal. It'd be cool if you did. But on every single card, there's a question, uh, which will hopefully invoke some vulnerable memory or a story from your life that you feel safe enough to share with us and everyone listening slash watching. So you've got three cards.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  I do. This does feel like I'm reading for my dads. It's like, sound it out, sound it out, good girl.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. You can do this, Bron.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  You can do it.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  You've read before.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Okay. Who do you go to for advice and why?

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Which dad?

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Comedy advice or teaching advice?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  That's right. Oh, uh, when was a time you genuinely needed help? And were you able to ask for it? Okay.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  And can you remember a time when someone's honesty hurt you, but ultimately made you grow? I feel like this is for the lady at the bus stop.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Brutal honesty, yeah. Uh, uh, someone's honesty hurt you. Yeah, look, I mean, that one in, in the comedy world and in the teaching world, there's so much brutal honesty and it does help you grow. But I reckon I'm gonna go with for this. Uh, when was a time you genuinely needed help? And were you able to ask for it?

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Okay, great.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  What, what, what pops into your head when you?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, so I had, cause I've got three kids and I, I just feel like I misunderstood or I underestimated how hard it was gonna be. And it wasn't like just the first one. And then I was like, oh, this, this hard. Good each kid brought a completely different.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Challenge.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  It's almost like, like, I think, like, from what we know of as a, as like watching films and TV shows, it's like the childbirth is really hard.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  And then after that, it's magic.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and you like, you know, they say like, you never know love quite like it, which I understand. I go, I get that, that makes sense to me. But, um, it's not, that is, is only one part of it. And you also never know so much, you never know self doubt. Uh, you never know regret. You never know all of these things, which is amplified when you have a kid. And the next one brings a whole new level of an emotion that you just didn't know the depths of until you're in it. So. The times I needed help have, there have been so many times during my time as a mother.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  But I think I'll go through all three because each child gave me a, a, a new version of myself that I didn't necessarily like, but has eventually helped me grow.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  So when Olive, Olive is my eldest, so she's almost 12. When she was born, I just thought it was gonna be great. Like, I was so excited. So Lucas and I, Lucas is my partner, we, we'd only been together for six months. And we found out we're having a baby. I know. We found out we're having a baby and we were like, holy shit. But the most delightful part is that we're both really excited. Like, immediately, like, oh my god, we're gonna have a, have a baby. All of our friends were like, this is gonna end so badly.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Was it, was there a point, like, maybe too personal, but was there, was there any conversation with you and Lucas where it was like, we're having a baby. You, you love me, don't you?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  We moved so quickly. So like, I met him and he's, he's magic. Like, he's such an excellent fellow. And everyone instantly loves this man.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  And he found, he finds me really funny, which I didn't realise was that important.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Well, you need.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  That's all, yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  I will marry anyone in a second if they find me funny.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't realise how important it was, you know, like, in a romantic relationship for him. Because my, the boyfriend before Lucas didn't think I was very funny. He thought I was a bit, a bit of a show off. Like, when I'd love to tell a story, and boys, I love to tell a story.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Uh, he'd be like, here we go again. And I'd be like, oh gosh, okay, maybe I'm a bit much in this regard. But when, with Lucas, he just thinks everything I say is really, well, not everything, but yeah. Would, and so from the start, I, he ticked lots of boxes for me. He, I ticked lots of boxes for him, I guess. And we just knew that it was gonna be great. So, uh, yeah, we, we got, became parents really quickly. And my, my sister's already had kids and my, I'm one of five. So my mum was like, oh, this is, this is just normal and great. You know, you're gonna be fine. And nieces and nephews, everything was gonna be awesome. And then I had Olive. And I, she was the hardest baby I've ever seen.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Like, just not, just out of mine, of I've ever seen. Um, and she might not have been hard for other people. Someone might have worked it out really quickly, but I couldn't work it out. I didn't know, she cried. Like relentlessly for the first four months of her life. And I know that people are like, oh, four months, that sounds hard. And she's 12 now, but I like that four months of crying. Cause you just think, if you're on a plane and there's a baby crying, let's just say, worst case scenario, you're on a 14 hour flight, that's long. And a baby crying for 14 hours, that hurts. Like that, that's a memory no one's forgetting. Like that's part of you now. And you go, God, remember when that baby cried for 14? I was awful, I was asleep.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  It's a core memory.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  I couldn't taste my shit sandwich because I just, the noise, it was awful. It is now a core memory for everyone. And you just think, oh, the parent who was dealing with that baby, that would have been awful. But 14 hours truly pales in comparison to four months.

• 14:48Speaker 00

  And that breaks, that breaks you.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. It chips away and the, it's, uh, all you wanna do is to make it stop. And, but you, and Lucas would be like, well, why don't you just go for a walk? Or why don't you get some space, but it doesn't feel right to leave. I was like, well, I can't. So it's just like this constant self-flagellation of like, I know I deserve to be here while she's this upset. And I will work it out somehow. And eventually four months in, maternal healthcare nurse was like, do you know you have to feed her? I was like, oh shit. Like, well, she just was not getting enough food. Which, uh, I just thought that I had more milk, but then I did. And we went on to formula. So then that became, that, that relief of being like, oh my God, there's a solution here.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  That faded pretty quickly to me just feeling deep, deep regret or just shame. I know I mentioned in my bio, I am incapable of feeling shame. That's probably actually one of my favorite emotions is, um, but I don't feel shame about the small things. I think it's the big things that I really struggle with. But that was like, how did I not know this? How did I not? And my mum said to me, when I did start on formula, oh my God, thank God, that poor baby. Like, why didn't you say anything? She was like, well, I thought that you'd, I didn't want to offend you. I was like, what? You just let me hear a baby scream because you thought it was gonna hurt my little feelings? Oh my God.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  And then it got a bit better, but she was still a pretty grumpy baby. And I was kind of taken aback by how unnatural it all was for me. Like I thought that it was gonna, I thought I was gonna be much better at it.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  That's something I haven't heard too many people say out loud before. I feel like it's a very common thing for new mums to go. I just assumed it would come naturally to me, but it's not.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  That must be an awful feeling.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. You're just like, you, you think, well, if this isn't, if this thing isn't natural to me, like, is anything, am I good at anything? And you go, oh God, I thought it was gonna be, and I look at my sister, there's a point of comparison, look at the mums in mothers group, and you're like, well, their babies aren't screaming, and they knew that they had to have more food. And, um, and then you just become, because it's the most important thing you feel like you're ever going to do. And if you get it wrong, you're like, what was the point of me doing anything?

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  So I kind of was thrust in this little bit of a dark space, but a fast dark space, if that makes sense, because I was constantly trying to problem solve, constantly just moving, moving, moving, moving. And the only way I could get her to stop crying, uh, was by walking. So I'd just walk the streets of Brunswick, hence when I screamed over Sydney Road, don't have a baby, or whatever I said to her. And, uh, just.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  I know you're definitely pregnant, don't have a baby.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  So Olive was fast and chaotic. And then I, on Olive's first birthday, I found out I was pregnant with my second daughter, Edie. And that, I was excited for like a moment, and then I was terrified because I was like, oh shit, I have to start again. I have to start this again. And then what if it's harder? What if it's five months of not stopped crying? And what if I, and what if I, you know, what if I get this even worse? And then Olive is, I don't have all these, and so that nine months was dreadful because I was just worried that I was going to have a monster again. And then Edie was born and she was the happiest, chubbiest, most lovely baby. And instead of me enjoying that, I was just waiting for

• 18:19Speaker 01

  her to change. Like, I was like, yes, yes. And people are like, God, she's easy. I'm like, yeah, just wait though, she'll change, like her sister, she'll change any second. So instead of enjoying it, I was dreading.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  The change, it was like free falling.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  I was like, it's gonna hurt soon. Like, whenever I hit this ground, it's gonna hurt so much. And I don't know if we'll survive it, guys. So just hold on.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. How was, when, so how old was Olive when Edie was born?

• 18:47Speaker 01

  She was one. So she's, yeah, twenty months is the gap. And so then I had two babies. And Lucas, how the system works is you get two weeks off and then you go back. Maternity leave is so short. And then you go back. And the first two weeks are relatively easy because they sleep a lot. They're still recovering from being born. And then after two weeks, they wake up and they cry heaps. So Lucas went back to work and then I had two babies and two very different kinds of babies, like, like different species. I had a one-year-old who, you know, kind of walked around and was toilet training. So she was like, like pissing and shitting out of her hands. And then Edie, who was just like, you know, and you had to keep her asleep all the time.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And so this chaos that I thought was at max capacity with, with just having one hard baby just doubled. And I'd seen so many parents before me have two kids and, and survive it. But I could not comprehend that was going to happen for me because I, it was so hard. And it was, the nights were long and the days were like relentless. And you read all these things that terrify you, like, if you don't spend enough time, if you don't make enough eye contact with your baby, they will turn to a syrup colour. And I was like, Christ, we've got so many of them. I'll just, ah, all right.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  And that's really a male-dominated field, girls.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  So I was like, okay, so.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Requires some representation, yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  So it was, there was never like 20 seconds where I'd be, oh, this is easy bit. Or just walking to the shops or walking to do this. And then she strapped in, oh, someone's smell, which one is that? And, and like going to, uh, taking Olive to gymnastics, even though, you know, I don't know one, any one year old that needs to go to fucking gymnastics, but they tell you, they're like, well, they've got to be entertained. So they're going singing the songs, what are they called? Like there's like, oh, it plays where you go and sing nursery rhymes with your babies. And they're useless. Like baby, like they're just like floppy necks and you're just sitting at the back of the thing like going and you're just like this. I mean, I know that's not a nursery rhyme, but I'm, I've got no newborns left. So give me a fucking monkey.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  But it is basically six adults sitting in a circle, singing nursery rhymes while the kids just.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Humiliating. Absolutely. Yeah. If you just take a step back, so embarrassing for everyone in this room.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Is there a general feeling of like, are we wasting our money here? Like this shouldn't, we shouldn't be paying for this.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  Well, even like, like as the only male in the room, when I'd go and do it, it's like, you've got this very deep voice while all the other ladies are singing. You just, I just even, I was like, I feel silly. My voice is so deep.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Musically, that's probably quite a good contribution.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  No, they need a baritone and a solo for you, mister. Yeah. So they, uh, so the days felt like there was always, you have to keep moving, you have to keep going. And it's really charged by guilt. Like it's really, if you, if you miss one of these things, like you, you've stuffed it again. And you've spent your first four months of motherhood stuffing it. So let's just maybe not stuff it anymore. Like you feel like, I felt like I'd run out of warning shots. So I was like, okay, I'll just fill the days with things. And then the nights would come and I remember when I'd, you know, feel it getting darker and the dread would rise. Because I knew that I couldn't just walk to shops or I couldn't just like,

• 22:20Speaker 01

  go to a like Gymburu or I couldn't, there wasn't like a distraction.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  The dread rising is a very, I get that. Like, I think a lot of people listening right now are going, yeah, I know that exact feeling. It gets darker and then you get darker internally as well.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  You're like, here we go. Here we go again. Cause you don't know what the night's gonna be and chances are it's gonna be awful. Like if one kid. Has a good night, the other one won't. Like, why would they both have a good night? That would be too nice. So, and they might both have an awful night. So, probably, yeah. So there would be the, you knew that it was gonna be a really long night. And then you'd start thinking about the morning. You know when you've got an early flight in the morning? And you go, what's the point of going? You're up so late. You're like, what's the point of going to sleep now? There's no point. I'll just stay up and I'll just be a bit tired tomorrow. Every single night of having a newborn was that for me. I'm going, what's the point of going back to sleep now? I know she's gonna wake in forty five minutes. I know the other one's gonna, I may as well just check.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  I'll just see there's a poo in the nappy, cause I'm awake. I'll just go in and then you check. And then they wake up and you're like, what the hell was I thinking? I'm an idiot, yeah. And that, yeah, that, that, even just saying, I'm an idiot. I would have said that to myself. And so many parents will say that to themselves with a newborn fifty thousand times a day. Because you've done something where you think, well, this time will be different. I'll just get, I'll just wipe her nose. And she will be fine. She's asleep. And then you wipe a little bit of snot and then they wake up. And then the, the whole house is awake. And you go, I'm an idiot.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  For thinking that that, I was gonna get away with that. I was idiot, I'm an idiot for thinking, oh, there was one thing that was gonna go my way.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  And then I, so with the girls, it was constant, constant, constant moving. And the moving felt, the moving felt like I was getting somewhere. Like, it felt like literally moving was getting me somewhere. And I was like, if I just keep going, the days go faster. And I will, um, and hopefully something will work, you know? Hopefully something in this day will go my way. And I, uh, I became, like, I cleaned the house, like, constantly. And one of my friends, I'll never forgive her for it. She made a joke, but it didn't sound like a joke. She said to me once, um, God, your house is so messy.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  And she had like one babe, like a newborn, like a blob at the time. And I had a toddler and a newborn and I was like, what? She goes, it's so messy. And I went, is it? And she goes, yeah, you know, you know that that's normal. And I was like, oh, so she isn't joking. But I looked at my house and I was like, this, I thought this looked pretty good. And years later, she said, I was, like, I thought you knew I was kidding. Your house was fine. That's fantastic. She was like, but at the time I had no, I had no way of deciphering between what was real and what was a joke. Your brain's not working. No, so I was like, oh, my God. And so that became like a new problem for me. I was like, everyone's laughing at how disgusting my house is. And that's another failure of mine is my house is awful.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  So I would clean and I'll clean and I would clean. And also that was moving as well. Like, I would never sit still because sitting still meant that I was missing something. And I didn't understand how, what I was doing to my brain at the time. And I, someone said to me, oh, maybe if you love moving so much, why don't you do, why don't you join an exercise class? I was like, yeah, that sounds great. And so I joined a really, really low key one. It's called CrossFit. And I, very gentle on the bones. And I went to this class and I instantly loved it because it was a whole hour that flew past. And it was an hour that I wasn't with my, and it makes me feel awful saying this. So, um, like, reserve any judgment, please.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Or, um, it is like, I, it felt good to be away from them. It felt good to be away from. I feel that every time I leave the house. Yeah. I was like, please, just give me an hour. And I was at a place where no one was asking me for anything. Um, and I became very quickly addicted to it, uh, for a number of reasons. One, I think is because I was away from my house for an hour and it was like an approved absence. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can't just be like, oh, if you said, I'm going to the movies. For an hour every day. Like, I don't know what movie goes for an hour, but like, I'm going to the movies for an hour every day and that's my time. That is like as a, to a mother, for a mother to say that, that's so selfish. What do you mean you're going, yeah, what do you think of a movie for an hour?

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  What do you mean, you're eating boysenberry chock top for an hour by yourself?

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Lucky for some.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that is no, but to go to exercise.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  You're going to punish yourself physically.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  To go and punish you and to get smaller, to like, to be like, oh no, I'm doing this to, and then to be a small lady again. Everyone's like, ah, that makes sense and good for you.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  No, absolutely good for you.

• 27:16Speaker 00

  I just have this picture on my head. I saw you, well, not you, but a version of you yesterday. I saw a lady trying to get her two kids who sound exactly the age you're talking about here, trying to get them into the car and she had a bag on her shoulder, which had opened up and the things were dropping out and she was just crying, like she was just doing it, but crying. And I was walking past her, I thought I have to say something here so that she knows, I think she's doing a great job, but I got quite panicked with what to say to, wouldn't come across wrong. And so I just looked at her for a bit and then walked off, which was, no, that was terrible. I just looked at her and walked off, but.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Hey, stuff's falling out of your bag. So yeah, good luck.

• 27:54Speaker 00

  No, I just, I was like, I say something, no, so, so, no, I'm so scared she didn't take this the wrong way. She was like so upset. So I'm just wondering, were you, I think about Penny and myself at this stage, were you in tears a lot? Did you?

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't think I, I wasn't because I was moving so fast, but there, I don't think anyone could have said anything to me that I would have received well.

• 28:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that is exactly what I felt yesterday.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Yes. However, I do look back at that time where I was moving so fast and punishing myself. Cause I went to CrossFit so much that the CrossFit lady was like, you, you can't come more than once a day. And I always thought she was just being like, look, this is like some money, financial, like something like you can't, you're being greedy. But that was probably that, one of the only people who was like, I don't think you're well enough to be doing, like this is not good. Like I was sneaking in for a second time on the way home from work. By this stage, in these last years, the girls got to like. I think three, two and three, and I, or something like that, around that, where I, where I injured my back so badly that I wouldn't go. And I, I went.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  You injured your back?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  I injured my back.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Doing CrossFit?

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Doing CrossFit, yes. Cause it is brutal. And it was, so someone was like, oh, you could have done, you know, reform Pilates, but that wasn't brutal enough because I have later reflected on it. One of the reasons I liked going, so time away from the kids, another reason I liked going is because the praise you would get. So you, and that you don't get that at, in parenting. No one's going, you are, do you know what mum? This is the best tuna mornay you've ever made.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  This is actually incredible. Like you do it as for small kids, it's just, you don't get, it's a lot of noise and there's a lot of criticism and there's a lot of failure. And then physically, I was jacked. So I was going, I, people would go, wow, you've got two kids. You look ama, you don't look like you've got kids, which doesn't sound like a compliment. But when you've got two kids as a woman, you're like, thank you so much. Thank you. Actually, no, I do, no, they are mine.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yes, I had them. Yes, with my body, this body. Yes, it's incredible. And so you are constantly like, I was constantly praised for getting smaller, um, again. And then the third thing I really liked about it, and this took me a long time to realise, is that CrossFit hurt and I felt like I deserved that.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Which was, I didn't understand at the time, but it, when you have, feel so much guilt from all of the things you get wrong as a parent, like I felt, um, I'd go to the gym and it would hurt. And no one would say, hey, that looks. Maybe you don't need to do that. You don't need to lift that much or whatever. I'm not saying this isn't taking away from the trainers. They were all fine. But I would go in there with the intent to feel sore.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh. And it was. Almost like to punish yourself.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, lots of self-flagellation in that. And then when I hurt my back uh really badly, I would still go and the trainer would be like, okay, but I'm like, you're not really walking very well. I'm not sure why you're turning up. I said, it's fine. It's totally fine. And I would push myself through. I'm astounded. I don't have uh any permanent damage. Because I hurt it really badly. I would just keep going and keep going. Cause I was like, well, if I don't have this.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Then I, I don't know. I don't know what I would do with, I don't know where with this guilt would go. If I don't feel it physically.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  I'm nervous that it will creep into a more insidious part of me. And I was, that was terrifying.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  Hearing you recount, you know, the nights and what it's like, I, I can't possibly know what that feels like. Just to hear that, I think paints like a picture of like, oh shit, this was like really, it was really serious.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I didn't, and I didn't know at the time because again, like the first two things felt like they mattered more like a little time away. A little bit of identity when you're drowning in small kids constantly on you. To have like, to have an hour of no one touching you is really intoxicating. So I was like, well, that's one thing. And the other thing of, you know, I look, I've never, I've never been proud of my body. You know, we're told, girls are told from such young age that it's such a core value of ours. It's like currency. It's this is to, to look incredible is, and to look a certain way. It's not just like any kind of way. It's a certain way. This is great.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  And, and, and we as a society will, will praise people for looking that. It is, it, we, we do it without even noticing. Oh, you look great. Look, you've, you've lost a lot of weight, haven't you? We've no idea why they've lost weight or how they've lost weight or. How they're feeling about that, but we are told that we're allowed to. This is a, you don't say what you've put on weight. Like, we know that. We've been trained well enough to not point that out. Cause how, how awful to put on weight. So that became something that a huge achievement of mine. So I was like, gosh, people are, I've got a body that I've always wanted to have. And this never happened to me. So awesome.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  That's intoxicating as well.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Felt, I felt like a success when in this area, whereas at home, it was nothing that felt like a success there. Even though I could not love my babies more and I, and they, they were safe and fed and well. All of these things that now I know is a successful home. At the time, none of it felt like I was getting it right.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  So with the double CrossFit days and the, and the busyness that you were, that you were kind of forcing on yourself. Did, did you know what you were trying to hide from or run away from?

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I definitely do. I feel like if I, I, I didn't, I know if I was cognizant of it at the time, but I just felt, I now know if I stopped. I felt worried if I stopped, that all of these uh, statements or questions, all negative. That were just kind of nipping at my heels.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  If I stopped, they would hit the back of my head and then I would have to experience them, which were things like, um. It's not, you're not, you're doing a bad job, um, which I kind of, I could hear whispers of it, but not if the, not if I was running. If, if you feel, if you feel something else, you know how when, um, you're trying to make yourself not laugh. So you've got, a laugh is about to come out and so you will do, you'll pinch your, pinch your palm. Or you'll do any, you know, bite the inside of your mouth.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Think of things that are funny.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  A distraction. You just need a distraction, something, and often pain will do that. You'll go, oh God, that's all right. Okay. And your brain will get tricked. Isn't that how some people get out of like, uh.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Light detectors.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Light detectors. Yeah, they put a pebble in their shoe and when they don't wanna, this is good to remember. And you get caught for all those murders.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Talking about.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  So, uh, pain was something that I would utilise in order to not get the truth, which was, uh, the things I was desperately fearful of, which was you're not doing a good job and your kids aren't going to be well-rounded and, uh, other people are doing better and everyone can see how badly you're doing at this and people are laughing at you. People are laughing at you and, um, they feel sorry for your kids and Lucas probably should have found someone who was going to be a better mum to his kids. And, um, yeah, so I was running from, um, uh, not only from those, those phrases or those things,

• 35:48Speaker 01

  but it, it was easy to run when you, I was constantly surrounded by a noise. And the noise, it, I was trying to get away from it, but at the same time, the running kind of added to it. So the noise kind of felt like, you know, in a kettle that is boiling on the stove and no one's turning it off. Um, and it felt like, you know, when someone's slamming the cupboards or, um, someone's opening a key, but they've got the wrong key. And you're just listening, you're inside and you're listening to it. You're like, wrong key dickhead. Like, obviously you've lived here for ages. Like, number them, number them, put a, put a Band-Aid on one. I don't know, work it out, you're an adult, things like this. I mean, that's coming from experience. Um, or just, uh, like a car just idling out the front of the house, but it's got, but it needs a service.

• 36:33Speaker 00

  It's like the movie representation of someone who's overwhelmed.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Like the kettle and then the...

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. It felt like a montage. It felt like a montage in a movie where someone is stressed. But that was 24/7.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  So you're always, so when you say this, do you mean you're feeling the equivalent of that? Or you're literally hearing those?

• 36:52Speaker 01

  So, um, it was, I'm not literally hearing it, but it's the feeling I get from those things. And every, but, but noises were louder. So when someone, like someone slam, uh, close a cupboard door, it would shock me. Like I would be really on edge the whole time.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  It's like constant agitation?

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And it's a, um, which is awful when you are, when you're feeling so annoyed all of the time, um, and then a tiny toddler just gets in your way and you couldn't love that toddler more if you tried, but they spill their milk in front of you. And it's something that every toddler would do, but it feels personal. You're like, I told you to not put that there, but you you can't yell at it. It's a baby that you love, you can't actually scream at the toddler. They will take the kids away. So you bottle it up and you let it seethe and you let it simmer at like the bottom of your throat.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Um, like a like a stone and you leave it there. And as the day goes on, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And then uh you go to bed and don't sleep well. And in the morning you go and try and release it somehow by lifting weights. That was every single day and it was one day my friend text me and she said, I was putting hanging out washing and my. I was hanging out the washing and I felt really proud of myself because I was hanging out clothes that. I'd only been dirty this morning, that morning. And I was like, I'm actually nailing this, like such a small moment of victory. I was like, I wore these to the gym this morning, I'm hanging them out. These are gonna be dry by this afternoon. I surely I'm doing all right, a very small moment of a win.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  And then my friend text me and was like, uh, um, how how's it going? Do you wanna do you wanna hang out? I said, oh, no, I can't hang out because I've got the kids and I can't take them anywhere because. They'll run around and I have to get them here and I've got actually got the shops to do and I've got this huge list. And she said, oh, wow, um, uh, life sounds really busy. And I wrote back and I didn't know there was no filter on my this text. I just wrote back and I said, I hate my life.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  And she wrote back, I didn't, I didn't even, I didn't, it wasn't written as a joke. It just was truly written really matter-of-factly. And she wrote back and said, dude, that's not great. I said, doesn't everyone hate their life? And she said, no, mate, heaps heaps of people don't hate their life. I think there's something wrong. And that was like, oh, okay. I, I, I, I've stuffed this as well. Uh, I need to, I need to fix something. And that, and that became another noise that I would run from. But what, like, you're not even, why'd you do, like, this is all self inflicted, Bron.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  Is that the feeling of I hate my life? Is that something you'd ever experienced or thought about your life before kids?

• 39:53Speaker 01

  I don't think so. No, because there was reprieve. There was always, it was always a moment, a week, a day, a night, an hour of reprieve. And even when, like, things were hard in different points in my life. It wasn't until I had kids where there was literally no break. I remember one night really late at night, like 11 P M. And it was screaming Olive when she was a newborn. And it dawning on me that there was no day off.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have a strong memory of that.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  I was like, oh, I said, this is forever. I was like, I was like, even the worst job in the world, you get a day off.

• 40:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I remember the first week we had our, born, I think on Tuesday. I remember Fod going, oh, my God, thank God, it's the weekend. And going, oh, no, hang on, he doesn't know that. He can give a shit what day. Nothing's gonna change tomorrow.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Where's his little calendar?

• 40:43Speaker 02

  All right, Dad, you've been gone for a while. You take ten.

• 40:46Speaker 00

  Take two days, that's the weekend.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  So Bron, it sounds like things were really difficult. What happened next?

• 40:58Speaker 01

  I was back at work by this stage, I was back teaching three days a week. And, and with teaching, because it's a female dominated, uh, industry. And just how the society has worked. A lot of women who, or a lot of people who have kids in, in teaching, they become the main domestic person at home. So because they were like, oh, you've got 12 weeks off or 10 weeks off a year. And, you know, some people think that school goes from nine till three and then all this free time afterwards. And so you're gonna be in charge of the kid, that's obviously. And also, and a lot of couples, teacher is the, the teacher in the couple is the lower paid person. And so they're like, well, obviously you're gonna have all this. And that, all of those things happened in my situation. Lucas earned more than me.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  I had the school holidays, but it's not nine till three. It's much more than that, especially I was doing year 11 and year 12 English. There was so much marking. So I had the kids, I had drop offs, pickups and I had teaching. And so I was kind of wa- moving at a million miles an hour at school and moving a million miles, uh, miles an hour at home and then moving even faster at the gym. So everything was fast and I was not sleeping very well because I was like, again, what's the point of going to sleep? They're just gonna wake up in a second anyway. I got to the point where I, um, I got to the park, both girls were crying because Olive wanted me to push her on the swing and Edie, the newborn, I needed to push her in the pram

• 42:25Speaker 01

  uh, over Tambar to get her to sleep. This weirdest thing about newborns is like, the more you shake them, the easier they go. Like, they won't just go to sleep. What an awful way to go to sleep. They're so stupid.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  I guess that's what they're used to, isn't it? Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Like, it's like, oh, wow, this is relaxing. Like, my four year old son, he still has to go, he goes to sleep by throwing his head from side to side on the pillow. That's how it goes to sleep. Wild, wild. Babies are so stupid.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  So to get Edie to go to sleep, I have to go over Tambar as fast as I could and shake it and then she'd go to sleep and I'd, but Olive would be crying because she's on the swing, she's only one, she doesn't understand. I can't explain to her, the baby, your baby sister that you care about, very little, um, the one that's uprooted your life, um, I need to get her to sleep. So if you could just be patient, you know, give him about, I don't know, five minutes, mate. You've got a watch on you? No, no watch, okay, they don't make him that small. I guess if you could just get, so I just had to push Olive as hard as I could on the swing and then run over to Edie in the pram and push her over the Tambar and then Olive's swing would slowly come to a stop and then she'd scream again and then I'd have to run over and push her again.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  I had my headphones on and I was listening to just all of my favourite songs, um, and I got to my song, Tina Arena's Chains, which is a banger. Like, absolutely, it's like life changing for me.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Underrated.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  And when I heard it at the park with two babies screaming, I was like, a whole, I, it makes sense now.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Like, this song actually, the song that I've loved and cherished for so long, it genuinely makes sense now because I am in. Chains and I would be, I so I started singing it. I turned it up as loud as I could to like block out their crying because it doesn't matter whether I could hear it or not. I knew it was happening. I turned it up as loud as I could. And then I could still hear him. So I started singing it and I was singing it at the top of my lungs whilst pushing this, pushing one baby and then running over and swinging another and then running back. And I was like screaming it to the point where it hurt. And people were walking through this park like to go to work. Like people were trickling through.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  And just, just to remind people of the lyrics, it is, I'm in chains.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, baby, baby.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  I'm in chains. Yeah, two babies.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  And I never thought this would happen to me, you know, I never thought this is where I'd be. I'm in chains. Absolute, like, I was like, she's singing directly to me. I don't know how she knew that I would need this song, but I was like, holy hell, this all makes sense. And people were going to work and kind of looking at me, but it would have been a similar thing that you experience. You is like, do I go over and see if that lady's okay?

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Cause she obviously isn't, like it would have been paradise if someone came over. And said, oh, can I just push, I'll just push this one on the swing.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Just for like a couple of minutes. But in the same, in saying that, I know that if someone came over and said, can I, do you want me to, I'd go, no way.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  No, I'm good. I can do this.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  I'm good.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  We might have done, had two ba, two babies. My mum had five. I was like, I can do this, surely. So I needed help in that specific moment, but there's no way I would have accepted that. Uh, but in, upon reflection, I would have loved just the memory, just the memory would have helped of someone going, can I, do you want me to? Well, do you want me, do you want me to harm me? I don't know, like anything would have helped in that moment.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Were there, were there, just at this point in your life, were there? Um, cause I have this, this picture of you, um, soldiering on like everything's fine. Was your body giving you any, or was your mentally or physically, there any, what are your body giving any warning signs that potentially you're not? Was anything happening to you like, oh?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I remember getting, um, obviously much smaller because it was just a constant moving. Uh, but that's praised. So, but no, I didn't know. I thought it was hard and mentally I was struggling, but I thought that was normal.

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  It was normal because it was hard. I don't know how. Anyone would be like, this is anything. I felt like my sister, who's my older sister's a very, very, she's an excellent mum. She's got four kids and she, it seemed easy for her. So I was like, well, if I'm, just like we said, like how are two kids so different? My sister and I, we're made of the same, we've got the same parents, you guys. And I don't, but how do we?

• 46:41Speaker 02

  Do you have a favourite? To be honest, I'm ashamed to say it, but I haven't spoken to your sister in a long time.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Forty two years.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, forty two years, yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  I should, I should call.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  So I couldn't understand why, how we were experiencing motherhood so differently. So I was like, oh, I'll just keep, I'll just keep pushing until it's easy. I'll just keep pushing until I look like that.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  And then it wasn't until my friend Claire, who I've known since high school, she said to me, I reckon you could just pop to the, I reckon you're sleeping very well. Um, I reckon you could just pop to the doctor and just let her know that you're not sleeping well. And um, it's a lot and she might be, I reckon she might be able to help you. And I was like, what is she gonna do? I hate going to the doctor. I was like, oh my God, this feels ridiculous because I don't have a temperature, I don't have a rash. I was like, this feels silly. This feels embarrassing. So I remember almost cancelling and going, just go in and just say it. And all she's gonna say is, yeah, motherhood's hard. What do you want? And then I'll, then I'll have a doctor saying it and then I'll be able to say that to people. I've got medical professional backing up exactly what I've been saying is, of course this is hard.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Of course it looks like I'm, I'm having a hard time because it's fucking hard.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  And the doctor said, lady said it, I said it, let's leave it. Let's just let me have a hard time. Okay? And I went to the doctor and I expected it to be really quick. I sat down, I was like, okay, I'm not really sure why I'm here. Just like not sleeping very well. I've got two kids, I had them really close together. They're like three and four now. Um, she said, oh, you've, um, she said, okay, so you've got two kids. All right. And she was really calm and I was moving at the speed of, you know, uh, light.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Quickly, let's go. I need to, I've got to clean my house. It's spotless. Quickly.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  And she said, okay, yep, yep, yep. Uh, I just wanna know, um, I'm not gonna know. You've got kids, you've got this and everything's normal. You, you know, your odds are fine. But I just, I just wanted to know, do you think, um, that you are a good mother?

• 48:37Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  And that just ripped the lid off my biggest fear. And I'd never, like, that obviously was like a screaming thought for, ever since Olive was born. For the past four years was a screaming thought, but I'd never said it out loud or acknowledged it fully. And I'd never had anyone ask me that because what a question. And I was just stunned of all of, but everything was moving so fast. And then it all just like came to this crashing halt with this one question from a woman I'd never met before, but knew exactly what was happening.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  And she, I said, oh, you know, oh, it's hard. She said, yeah, it is, it looks hard. It's, it's really hard. You're experiencing something really hard, but do you think you're a good mother?

• 49:43Speaker 01

  And I said, no.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  No, I, um, I've tried really hard to be one.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  But no, I don't reckon I am.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  And she said, well, I am here to tell you that you are.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  But you're going through something harder than it needs to be because you've got postnatal anxiety. And it's very clear to me and you don't have to, it doesn't have to be this hard. And, um, after that, it's a bit of a blur, but she prescribed me some medicine. And I went home and I took it. And within days, my life had changed. I was like, oh my God. I could breathe, like I felt, cause the rock that had been sitting on my chest for the past four years had kind of, it hadn't gone completely, but it had lightened a bit. And everything wasn't as noisy. So when I, my anxiety felt like

• 50:55Speaker 01

  the volume on life was at full, like, like a complete, turned up completely. The lights felt too bright, like every, and it, if, like, I could hear people chewing in another room. I could hear, like, I could feel light. It, everything was, it was like the top layer of my skin had been taken off. And that's just, I was like, well, this is just how I live my life now. Like this is the noise I'm supposed to hear and this, and the sounds I'm, it was like the sounds are getting under my skin and everything hurts.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  This is my lot in life.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  And this, and, and I'm supposed, and it's supposed to hurt. It's similar to CrossFit. Like it's supposed to be, it's supposed to feel this bad. Cause I've fucked up that many things, fucked up so many things that I'm supposed to not fuck up.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Uh, because I went in stupidly thinking I was gonna be good at it.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  And then it started to become easier.

• 51:54Speaker 00

  I just, I just feel like it's worth pausing for a moment on that question that the doctor asked you, because I feel like there'd be a lot of mums or parents

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  listening right now, probably still reflecting on that, on that very question and a feeling like I'd probably need someone to ask

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  me that. Well, what, what was it in that moment that just stopped you in your tracks?

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Uh, I, because I, I had to finally answer it. I'd be able to finally, no, it, there was no one else in the room. It wasn't like someone was go, a friend was gonna chime in going, no, you're amazing. Cause I did not know where she was going with it. She could have said at the end, and that's how bad my, a darker space I was in. Her going, cause you're not, because what I'm saying is you're not, and you actually need, and I'm gonna be calling, you know, child services, because it looks like, you know, you're prioritizing the gym. Look at your guns. I'll bring it up again. Look at your guns. They're incredible.

• 52:45Speaker 00

  And so when she said, you are a good mum, did you, in your heart, did you believe her?

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Ah, great question. No, but it felt like, but it felt different coming from her

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  than it would have done my friends or my family.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Um, because she, what was she, she didn't matter to her. I wasn't her friend. She'd just get on with it. She was gonna tend to someone else after me, someone's rash or whatever, and she'd never think about me ever again. But when she said it, I was like, oh, this, it hit differently, but I didn't, I didn't necessarily believe her. Uh, but I, I, I needed to hear it because um, it was the scariest thing, the other option. And then the medication helped so much and everything seemed to get a bit better. I stopped going to CrossFit, not immediately, but the, eventually I stopped going to CrossFit. I stopped feeling, everything slowed down, the lights dimmed, the sound went down.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Life started to feel good again. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, good. I'm enjoying this. I'm finally enjoying being a mum. Okay. Yeah, I've got this. It's easy.

• 53:54Speaker 02

  So you're enjoying it then?

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  And then Covid happened and I'd just gone from, uh, taken long service leave from teaching because I'd started stand up.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  So, so this is obviously twenty twenty?

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  So how old was Olive?

• 54:09Speaker 01

  So Olive would now be five, so she'd just done prep.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  And I was like, okay, a lot of time at home with the kids, this'll be nice. And I was, I loved it. I know that a lot of people had some pretty tough, tough times during Covid. Lockdown wasn't nice for a lot of people, but for me and my family, it was really nice because we had no option of rushing.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  There was no running, there was no, it was really slow and it was time. And I had a, a huge backlog of forgiveness and slow times with my kids to try and, to kind of sink into. And so I was really loving it to the point where I said to Lucas, we, we could have one more. We could have one more baby.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  And he, I didn't expect it. He was like, yeah, great, let's do it. Let's have another baby.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  And I have a joke in my comedy where I say, I thought two was plenty. I thought two was heaps. We've got a, two was enough. We thought two was gonna be exactly all we needed. Two was enough. And then we had our son, lovely little boy. His name's Ari. He's four now. When we had him. We realised two was enough, actually. Two was actually plenty and we've stuffed it. But obviously it's a joke, but at the, we had, we had him, we moved to Brisbane. We thought it'd be nice to have lots of family around. We thought, what does it like to have a baby with family around? Cause we've never, Lucas's family's in Brisbane, my family's in Canberra. We've done everything in Melbourne. And I thought, if I'd never asked for help with the girls,

• 55:39Speaker 01

  if there's help just right there with family, great. I couldn't potentially enjoy having a baby. I've never experienced that. So we went to Brisbane and we had him. And during that pregnancy, I remember being terrified that the noise would come back. And I remember saying to Lucas, I think I'm gonna go mad again.

• 56:01Speaker 02

  When you say the noise, you mean the crying and the?

• 56:03Speaker 01

  No, the crying, I meant the noise of like hearing lights and hearing the kettle.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Sensitive, extreme sensitivity to it.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  So the chaos, it was just, the volume was gonna go right up again. And I'd be able to feel like the sun would burn my skin on a 20 degree day, you know? I just, I was nervous that that was gonna come back. The anxiety was gonna come back.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  So I said to Lucas, I'm actually terrified. I'm gonna go mad again. Cause that's what it felt like. I felt mad. And he said, no, we know all the, we know all the flags. We're gonna, as soon as like something feels like that, we know medicine helped. We'll just do that.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  What, what was the medicine?

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Lexapro.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Lexapro, okay. It was an antidepressant.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I said, okay, all right, all right. You're confident. I'll be confident as well. And at the 20 week scan with Ari, then the sonographer said, oh, his head's quite huge. I was like, thought it was funny. I was like, yeah, it's a big head. I think that's big for heads in my family. It's fine. They said, okay, we'll just keep an eye on it. And then at like 26 weeks or something, I did another one and they were like, yeah, his head's gone pretty quickly, but probably too quickly.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  I just didn't phase me because the only thing that I was worried about was the anxiety coming back.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  I didn't, I was like, he's fine. Babies are always fine. Like, they are so resilient. And um, I make babies that make some cry, some don't, but they're always fine. They're healthy, they're fine.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  And I didn't tell Luke, I said, oh, his head's big, but I'm not, they're not worried. I'm not worried. And he's like, okay. And he's Polish, he loves where it's his favorite pastime.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  And so then the thirty four week one, um, they were like, okay, so his head's measuring at forty two weeks old, like he's really big and his body's normal.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  And I was like, okay, well, what does that mean? They said, we're just gonna do a, we're going to do like an MRI. So whilst I was, whilst I was pregnant with him, I had to do a tet. And they were like, look, there's some fluid on the brain, don't know what it is, we just have to wait for him to be born and to see. And I got back from that appointment, Luke said, how, what? I said, everything's fine. They said it's totally fine because I did not need his worry because that would make me stress. And I, I knew that if I, I knew the only thing for me to be worried about was the noise coming back. And Ari was born, we had to induce him to, it was two weeks earlier because his head was so big. I don't know why they didn't do a cesarean. I'm not criticizing them. I've never been a midwife, not an obstetrician. I don't understand.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  It's really easy to be like, well, I don't know why we insisted on a natural birth, whatever anyone wants to call it, but they did. And he was born, it was horrific labor. He was born and I just wanted to go home. It was COVID, so no, no visitors were allowed. I wanted to introduce my girls to their new brother. Uh, so within like, I don't know, six or seven hours of him being born, I was home. I was like, bye, I don't want to be here. Bye.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Is, is that fast?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  That's fast, yes. Yeah, some people, uh, uh, some people, like usually it's one night, you stay at least a night, you stay at least twenty four hours. But I was like, I need to get out of here. I felt like it had, it just had an awful time.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  So I get home with him and everything's great. I'm like, I'm not pregnant anymore, there's no noise, he's fine, he's sleeping, the girls are happy. I've done it.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  So he, he was healthy when he was born?

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like, yeah, he seems fine.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  I was like, well, we've done it. We've nailed it. We've, uh, well, this is finally, and I was so up myself about it. I was like, I've had three, three kids and I'm, this is the one, I'm, there's family. I'm gonna, I've worked it out. It did take me three humans to work it out. Like I had to get through a lot to get there, but I was like, I've solved the riddle. And then on day three, he didn't wake up, like he wouldn't wake up. And I was like, oh, I don't know. And my mum was there, mum was visiting and my mum used to be a midwife and she's had five kids herself and she never panics about anything.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Like when I was a kid, I was ten, I broke my wrist. We didn't go to the hospital for like a week and a half. I'm like, you'll be fine. It's a bone. No big deal. So when he was not, when he wasn't moving, I said, mum, look, look, this feels wrong. And she like opened, like lifted up one of his eyelids and his eye rolled back.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  And she said, you just need to go to the hospital right now. And I was like, ah, and Lucas goes, I've just got one work call. And I was like, no. Because he, because I'd never shown him that there could have been something wrong. He was like, what do you, what do you mean? What, and so we rushed to the hospital and it was COVID time. This is in prison and COVID time. And there was a security guard at the door and Lucas dropped me at the emergency and so I got out of the car. And I was in such a state that I couldn't talk to the, the security guard was like, is it an emergency? Like they were just like getting paid, you know, security guard wages, not here nor there. And they weren't trained for anything, but I was like, move.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  I got to the, I walked in and I, at the triage, there was a family in front of me who were just kind of like slowly saying, you know, like, oh, and she's got this rash. I'm not really sure what it is. And I was like, get out of the way. And finally I got to the, got to the triage nurse. And she just wasn't taking it as seriously as I needed it to. She was like, so can I see his Medicare card? And I was like, he doesn't have one. He's three days old. And she's, okay, all right, calm down. All right. We're all trying to get somewhere.

• 1:01:49Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  And she goes, I've just got a couple more questions, but by that stage, and I can't, I can't remember what I was saying or how I was sounding. But I must have escalated quite a bit and and she said, I've got one more question and then I'll get the doctor. Okay. And I was like, it better be fucking good. And she goes, what religion is he? And I almost burnt that fucking hospital to the ground. I was what? And then a doctor heard what was happening. She came out and was like, come through. It's okay. Come through, come through. And then she said, now what's going on here? And she was lifting his arms and it was just flopping back down. And she was trying to keep me calm, but I could not talk. I was, I couldn't talk because I was like, it's happened.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Like I've, I've officially fucked it. Like all of the almost fucked bits I've done. This one, I've officially ruined it. And um, she said, no, he's, he's trying, she was trying to keep me calm. And another doctor came over and then another doctor came over and then someone hit a button and then it was just a full. I could hear Lucas at the, at the door arguing with the security guard to let him in because she was saying, no, there's only one parent allowed. But I needed him to talk for me because I couldn't, none of the words were coming out. It was, I was like pulling, you know, pulling like stones out of thick mud.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, great description.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  I was like, I just need, and when he eventually come in, came in. They were asking him questions, but he didn't know the answer to them because I'd never, I hadn't let him in. Because I thought that anything that had gone wrong or that would go wrong was going to be my fault. Cause I would have done something wrong in a pregnancy.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  So I didn't want to tell him that I'd stuffed it because it was his child. So I just, I tried to just like compartmentalize all of it.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  And I got to the point, and, and hopefully I'd get away with it. And up until the third day, I thought I had got away with it. And then it all fell apart and no one could say, oh, you know, there was fluid on his brain, because we just didn't know there was fluid on his brain.

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  So had you told the, the doctors that at that point, there was fluid on his brain?

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Eventually, I said, his head's big. I don't, there were extra scans. I can't remember if I said there were fluid, but one of the doctors went, right, okay, yep, sure. Um, and they were jamming like, uh, glucose into his mouth, like violently into his mouth, because obviously it was an emergency, no, uh, blood sugar levels, nil. And then two doctors came over to talk to me and they were like, now, have you, have you ever had a cold sore? And I was like, well, yeah, I've had it. And they were like, oh, okay. And then they were like screaming something back, like, the mother's had a cold sore. Um, cause he had to, cause you know, you kiss newborn babies, if you've got a cold sore,

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  it can kill them. But I was like, but I haven't had one. I have, I don't have one. I didn't have one.

• 1:04:56Speaker 00

  I never knew that.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Didn't you? Oh, it's horrific, horrific. So I was like, no, I haven't, and I haven't. And they were like, did you kiss him on his face? I was like, you have kissed him on his face heaps, like past three days, it's all I've done. Um, and then she said, okay, well, all right. Um, and did you ever drink alcohol? And I was like, oh, I did have a glass of wine every now and then, but like, I just thought that that was, like, that was okay. Like, I've been, French ladies do it all the time. And she was like, did you ever take drugs? I was like, no drugs, I haven't taken any drugs. And I'm like, yes, but, oh, there was a couple of glasses of wine along the way. So everything, and she has had a cold sore, so everything was all my fault.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  So I was like, okay, all right, yep, all right. And they were like, and did, was it a, a cesarean or a natural birth? I was a natural birth. And they were like, oh, probably would have been better for cesarean. So I was like, fuck, I should have pushed for it to be cesarean. Cause her birth was so traumatic for him, because his head was so enormous. Anyway, they took him into this room and they said, we're gonna give him a spinal tap.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Uh, you don't want to be here for this because he will scream. And I was like, oh, no, no, I really want to hear that because he hasn't, I haven't heard him to make any sounds for hours now. And they said, no, you just go and look, they said to Lucas, you just have to get her out of here. And they took me, he took me to this cafeteria, which was like a ghost town because it was COVID, no one was there. And I sat, there was a few like kind of lost people kind of wandering around, the lights were too bright. And I sat down and Lucas said, do you want to, um, I'm going to get a coffee, do you want a coffee? And I said, um, no, because I'm breastfeeding.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  And then I was like, oh, fuck, am I?

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  I don't know if I am anymore.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  And he said, just have whatever you want, Brian, who cares? Like, just have whatever you want. And I just, so I'll just have a tea just in case. He gave me, he got me a peppermint tea and I poured it and I took a big sip straight away, just, and it burnt.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  My, all of the skin out of, inside of my mouth, but I was like, yeah, I know you deserve that.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  And I, I said, Lucas was like, Brian, this is like, we're in the right place. He's gonna, like, they're fixing him right now, they'll work it out. Like, I can see you're really emotional, but we've done all the right things.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry. And he said, um.

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  And he's like the hardest thing to talk about, like, just the hardest thing.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Because this is where.

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  And you're doing an unbelievable job.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Thanks. Because this is where like the girls part, like when I was anxious, this was awful. But this, this part of this week of my life that I'm about to talk about was hands down the worst week of my entire life. So Lucas says to me, and this, probably this moment in the hospital with Lucas in this cafeteria was maybe the most, um, awful moment of me, most worst version of me I've ever seen. It took me by surprise.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  He said, we're gonna be fine, it's all good. And I said, I don't think it is gonna be fine, Lucas, I think there's something really wrong with him. And he said, okay, it's okay, all right, we're gonna work it out. And I thought, I was like annoyed at him for not understanding like the gravity of it. I said, Lucas, he's gonna be, like, he's gonna be really disabled. I can tell. He's either gonna die or he's gonna be disabled. And he said, okay, and we'll work with that. And I said, I don't want to.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  And he goes, then I will. He goes, you look after the girls and I'll look after Ari. And we'll be fine.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  And I felt like I had.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  I firstly, I felt like I'd ruined my girls' lives. I was like, well, that's it. We're never gonna have a holiday. We're gonna have a ramp at the front of the house. We're not gonna be, I'm not gonna be able to work ever.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Like, they'll, well, we, I've ruined it. Everything I've, I've played with fire. I had two healthy kids. And I went in again. I was greedy enough to think I was gonna be lucky enough to have three healthy kids. Like, who the fuck did I think I was gonna get three healthy kids?

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  And I had, I was like, of course I've stuffed it. And not only did I have this moment of like, I've ruined their lives, but I also admitted that I regretted having him.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  And Lucas said, Lucas was like, I don't, just, you just calm down, because we're gonna be fine.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  And then I went back into the room and Ari, I just prayed that he was screaming like they said he would. I was praying, as much pain as he needed to be, and I just needed to hear it. I went back in and he was not making a sound. And one of the nurses, the doctors said, I reckon it's his brain.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  I was like, right, okay. And then she clocked off. And all the doctors kind of clocked off. And they put me in a room and Lucas had to go home because it was Easter.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  What do you mean clocked off?

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  I just were like, all right, well, we've all got, it's like the nurses will look after you now. There's nothing we can do. We just have to wait.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  And I said, could there be more tests? And they said, well, the tests, all the things are all closed because it's Easter weekend. So we have to wait for Monday and it was Friday.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  What the hell?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  I don't understand how it works. I was like, can you just turn on the machines? Just turn on the machines or take us to a hospital where the machines are on. And they were like, we've just already kind of put you, we've admitted you here. We'll wait for Monday, he might, hopefully some change happens.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  And, and there's been no change in him?

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  No change.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  What the hell?

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  I felt crazy. I felt mad again because I was like, can we not see that he's not moving? And they were like, yeah. And all I kept hearing was this doctor who said, it's his, we think it's his brain. And I was like, so what does that look like? Is he really disabled? Is he a little bit disabled? Is he temporarily unwell? Is it, what is this? What is my life right now? Like, what is, what is my life? What is my girl's life? Yeah, anything.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  And then they all left and Lucas had to leave as well because he had to go with to look after the girls. And I was in this room, a silent room with this sleeping baby that did not like even wriggle. He had a nose tube, a tube in his nose because he couldn't feed anymore. Um, like he wasn't swallowing.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  And so I was just sat there and I had to sit there for a week with no. People come in twice a day to say, look, there's no, there's no results yet. We don't know why he's asleep. Uh, and then Lucas would visit sometimes. And then one nurse came in and all I, I, I didn't want anyone, I didn't know what I wanted. Like I knew that I didn't want someone to come in and go, it's fine. Like this is, like this looks hard, but you're okay. Like you're fine, you got two healthy girls. I didn't want a pep talk. I wanted a hard scary story with success at the end.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  So a nurse came in and she tried to offer that to me and I was so excited. So she said, oh, you've got lovely little boy, he's nice. And I was like, yeah. And that annoyed me as well because I was like, there's nothing wrong with him.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Um, and I said, what, have you got a kid? And she said, yeah, I've got a little boy and he's lovely and I can, I know what you're going through. And that's, I was like, oh, I was finally, what, you know this, you've seen this? What, what do you mean? Like you've gone through this, please tell me this has happened to you and it's fine. She goes, oh, you know, my son, we were so excited when he was born and then we had some hardships and. I was like, yeah, so what do you mean? And she said, well, he's, um, he's autistic. And I was like, okay. Did he go to sleep for a week and then wake up? And she was like, no, no, no, he's very, really obsessed with history though. Like he knows everything about World War Two.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  I was like, that sounds fucking amazing. That sounds incredible. You've got a kid that knows everything about World War Two and he's awake. This isn't the same.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Because when I finished teaching, I went into tutoring and I just tutored as just kids, autistic kids. And that was the, all I did. And I just, they were the most rewarding kids for me to work with. So when she was like, I understand this is the same, we're the same. I, I was like, it's like she was speaking Spanish to me. I was like, no, we can't, we're never gonna find a middle ground here, right now. I needed someone to come in and say, my son went to sleep. And when he woke up, this is what he looked like. Because I had no idea what my future looked like. I had no idea what his future looked like. Didn't know if he had a future, didn't know what my girl's future looked like. I didn't know anything.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  And when she came in and said, I've got a little clue, and it was nothing. I was furious. I stopped when soon as she told me what, like her son was autistic and that was it. I was like, I think you need to get the fuck out of here. So I became angrier and angrier and angrier. The week went on forever and he still didn't move and he still didn't budge. And then finally. A nurse said, I think I've just seen him have a seizure. And I was like, great.

• 1:14:43Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Because that's something. We've got another like clue here. And she was like, oh, this didn't think that was gonna be your reaction. I was like, no, we've got like, can we say like, he's seizing, like, can we, can we move things along? Can we, and so we were transferred to a different hospital. This was five P M. You'll go, you'll go, the paramedics are gonna come, they're gonna transfer you to a bigger hospital. I was like, yes, finally. And they said, um, so just relax, order some dinner. And I'm not sure when they come. And I said, yeah, I will just, I'm fine. As they talk, yeah.

• 1:15:14Speaker 03

  I watch Friends.

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I said, this, I'm packing, I'm packing my bag. Okay, yeah, they're coming. Okay, because we don't know when they're coming, but they'll be, I said, well, they're gonna come soon because there's a newborn that's just had a seizure. So obviously they're gonna be here any minute. I'm packing all my things. And then I sit, I've had my socks and shoes and I'm sitting on the bed, just staring at the door with like my son in this little crib next to me. And she said, look, I reckon you just take your shoes off, get in, like, just relax. I was like, no, they'll be here any second. It's five P M. And seven P M comes and the nurse comes in, Bron, I really reckon you should just take your shoes off. I know, and I, no, no way. Okay.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  And ten, eleven, twelve, one, two, nurse comes in, she's like, Bron, I'm really, you just look really unwell. Can you just like, I said, I'm fine. Can everyone stop worrying about me? That made me angry. When anyone put any of the focus on me, I was like, why are you looking at me?

• 1:16:10Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Like, I'm, I'm at fault here. Like, it's like asking the person who's just like hurt, everyone, are you all right? No, your fists all right, mate? They look bleeding, are you okay? I was like, can everyone just stop looking at me and look at my son and just like leave it there?

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Five in the morning comes, I still haven't moved from my bed, I haven't eaten anything, I'm just sitting there. And then the paramedics finally walk in at six and they're like, oh, you're up early. You've already got your shoes on. I said, yeah, we're gonna, can we go now? And they're looking at him and there's these two lovely young paramedics, you know, look like they're from the country, like have that kind of like blonde, like blindingly white teeth, just that kind of like ochre energy about them, like everything's gonna be great. On every other day of the year of the my life, I would have loved these two girls. But their energy was everything I didn't want.

• 1:17:00Speaker 00

  I know, I know exactly what you're saying.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  And they were like, and they had in jokes with the nurses, like, yeah, because I was the, Ari was the last patient for them. So they were like, they were saying, nurses, there's a lot, oh, go out a massive night. Oh, God, it's been crazy out there. All right, okay. And they're going, here he is. Oh, this little fella, we've been waiting to meet him all shift.

• 1:17:21Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  And I was like, okay. And they're going, he's so cute. Oh, he's lovely. He's like limp lying there. Uh, like his head's like tilted. I'm like, just can we?

• 1:17:31Speaker 00

  Shut up.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  You must have just felt like you, you, you're just so misunderstood. It's like no one's actually.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  Listening, like not listening to, but it's just like, it's like so unseen.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  Or something.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  You feel mad. I felt mad. I felt like gaslit the whole time. I was like, this is sure. I've never seen a baby go to sleep for like this amount of time. And if you didn't think it was serious, you'd send me home. But you know, it's serious enough for me to be here, but you're not, like, no one's ever coming in. He's waiting for him to wake up. We get into this, uh, ambulance. And then the paramedics are like just chirpy, it's like chirping away at each other. Like two, like fun time, good time, school girls, like, oh, oh my God, did you see that guy? Oh my God, the valley was crazy last night. And one kept going, I've got a, I've got a nephew. Yeah, he's cute. He's not as cute as your boy though.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is so patronizing. You're just ignoring that he's completely out. I, I bet your nephew wakes up. But so I just was in silence. I was going through, there's no sirens. Nothing felt like anything was an emergency to anyone. And I'm at the lights in this, uh, ambulance with my tiny son that would not move. And I'm looking at the cars next to me and I'm thinking, God, I wonder how many times I've pulled up at the lights next to an ambulance with no lights on and knowing that there was like a broken baby and a devastated mum just sitting just centimetres away from me.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  And the paramedic goes, oh, oh, you know, like, sorry, we would have come earlier, but it was crazy in the valley, you know, Fortitude Valley last night was just animals, there are animals. And I was like, oh, so wait, hold on a sec. You guys, their priority was these drunken idiots. Hmm. Okay, I can't, I can't make any sense of it. But my, my rage was like, it was useless. It was a cul-de-sac. I was like, it just kept coming back to me. Like, it would go a little bit out and come back to me. And I'm like, why didn't you push harder? Why don't you walk in and say, no, I need an ambulance right now? Why'd you go to the wrong hospital to begin with, Bron? You've gone to the wrong one. Why didn't you assist on a caesarean? Why didn't you tell Lucas that there was things, it was a cul-de-sac of rage and blame

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  would always come back to me. And then we get to this hospital and I'm thinking, great, we're gonna, it's gonna, things are gonna happen, things are gonna change. I walk into my room and I'm sharing with two other people and I think, oh, this is fucked. I don't want to sit with them and they're gonna feel sorry for me and I don't want their pity. But I look over and there was a baby, a four month old little girl who'd had a brain tumor so, so huge and she had a huge scar down her head. And I was like, oh my God, he does have a brain tumor, that poor little baby. Then I noticed another baby, this little boy who was born, um, without, it's like a really important part of his body. And I was like,

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  oh, is he? And the dad was like, oh, we've been here for six months and we'll work it out. And I was like, oh, okay, perspective is finally happening after a week of being isolated, being, I thinking, oh, this, no one's ever gone through something so hard. I was finally given some perspective, like, no, no, it could be really hard. You could have, you know, all of these things, but still no answers were coming. And then eventually, after, I think it was eight days of him being completely still, finally started to stir a little and then eventually, and then feed a little. And then the doctors were like, yeah, we honestly cannot find what it is. So you can go home.

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  What? What?

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was like, okay, yeah. And they're like, one of the scans shows he's got bleeding on his brain, but it seems to be stopped, it seems to have stopped. And we think it's a result of the birth. And obviously should have had a seizure. Like, I'm like, oh, it's my fault. So they're like, okay, all right, you can go home and just let us know if he has another one of those episodes. And so we go home and we are late. We're like, we did it. And all of these horrific possibilities of him dying, we're just, I was like, okay, we get to go home. I get home, the girls are excited to see him. They're like, oh, my God, he's back. They have no idea what we've just gone through. They think it's normal for a baby to go back to the hospital for a week. So we get home and I'm like, okay, I'm, we've done it.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  We've, we almost lost and we've won again. We're okay. We've just cheated God. We've just, we don't know what it was. We've just cheated and I made up 10 million deals with the devil when I was in there with so much, in the hospital. Like, if you get us out of here and he wakes up, I will get off social media. If you make him wake up, I will play hide and seek with the kids every day. If you, and so many deals with the devil. And so when I got home, I was like, oh, this is so great. One of the deals worked. Which one was it? Like, what am I supposed to do?

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  I'm not getting off social media. That's fun. I love it on there.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  And hide and seek, you can forget about it.

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  That's boring.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  Let's renegotiate.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  No, so surely, surely I'm gonna be the happiest woman alive if I got this, this close to it being awful and it didn't happen. Then over a few days and I start to like not wanting to leave the house very much. I'm like, well, if I leave, he might have an episode and I'll just be here and I'm just constantly watching and I never slept because I didn't want, in case he, I would be poking him and making sure that he was still, you know, moving and stuff. But I was like, well, every mum would do that. Every parent would just be like, well, if that was awful, I'm gonna make sure it's okay. So everything that I was doing, I was like, this is just a normal part of it. Everything's great.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  And then after a few weeks, I um wasn't leaving the house at all. Um, and I was constantly waiting for the noise to come back. I was waiting for the lights to be too bright. I was waiting for the kettle to be too noisy. I was waiting for everyone to slam the doors too much. I was waiting for the madness to unfold again, but it just didn't and everything seemed quite dull. I remember not, not being able to put him down and feeling awful that I wanted, ever wanted to. I was like, this is what you wanted, Bronn. You wanted to be home. You wanted to have him here. You wanted him to be awake. You wanted him to stir when, if he was asleep. Like, these are things you want. What are you, how would you put him down? Like, what are you talking about?

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  So I'd just carry him and constantly be like, oh god, you're so lucky, you're so lucky, you're so lucky. And then it started, the wheels kind of fell off uh when the, and I noticed, when I noticed this had happened, was when I was sitting in my backyard, it was this gorgeous lush green backyard in Brisbane and looking up at this jacaranda tree and all the purple uh flowers were everywhere and the, the sun was coming through the leaves and it was just stunning and I was holding my healthy baby boy and the sun was so like as warm and I went thinking like, this should feel good and it doesn't. Hmm.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Like I don't, there's nothing wrong and I feel sick to my stomach.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  Like the, the, it just, it just didn't add up. And I remember Lucas coming out in the afternoon, I was there, he goes, you all right? I was like, I don't know, actually. Nothing felt lovely, like even the girls laughs, which I love to death. Their laughs, even they felt different, they sounded different. Everything felt like it was kind of underwater or coming through a wall or something.

• 1:25:37Speaker 00

  And was there a fear of, were you on, like, watch with Ari just wanting for something to happen again?

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like it was, it was kind of like, I wouldn't put him down. So I even slept with, holding him.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  So Lucas was like, well, do you, um, he's got a doctor's appointment, do you want me to take him? I was like, no, no, I'll take him because I was like, I haven't let him in on all of these things. He's not know what he's looking for. I just didn't trust anyone else with him. So I was like, I'll take him. And so I'd have to take him to the G P. And they would, she would measure his, his, his head. The G P in Brisbane, who I truly owe my life to, I, who at the time annoyed me so much. I went in and she'd measure his head and she'd go, and how are you? I'm like, don't ask me that. I'm fine. I've had three kids and they're all alive. I'm literally the luckiest woman in the world, in the whole world.

• 1:26:30Speaker 00

  So there was no moment of, oh, I've been in this situation before where a doctor has managed to.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  No, didn't, could not, didn't, I still didn't trust anyone. A, a doctor's, um, if they ask me a question, I feel like, um, it's dreadful. When a doctor asks me a question, even though I'm going there, I'm like, oh, you know, feeling well. And they're like, oh, how long have you had the cough for? I'm like, what are we married? Don't ask, it's not your business. What do you mean? So, um, so when she was like, so how are you? I said, oh, I'm fine. And I would really pull back and she read that correctly and didn't ask any more questions. And she would check in, she'd say, okay, well, cool. Yep, yep, yep. So I reckon. Ari's head is pretty good, but I reckon I want to measure it again tomorrow. So if you could come back tomorrow, I was like, oh my God, I get, I have to come back again. She was like, well, he's gone through a lot and you know, you want to do the right thing.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  I was like, yes, okay, fine. I'll come back tomorrow. So I went back the next day and she'd measure his head. And she said, how are you today? And I would, again, I'm fine. I don't know, like, everything's fine. The noise isn't there. I'm fine. She said, I'm just, I'm wondering what like some tablet, like if we could do some medicine. I know you said Lexapro was awful to come off, the withdrawals were awful, but we could try something else. I said, I don't know what you're worried about. I'm fine. And then she said, well, that's okay. Well, good. It's good to see you're fine. I'm just gonna have to measure his head again tomorrow. And I was like, oh my God, this woman is obsessed with his head, for goodness sake. So I came back the next day, she measured his head and she was like, yeah, well, it's the same as it was yesterday. I was like, I know, so how much could it grow?

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  She said, all right, so I've just talked to a couple of specialists and she was so delicate about it. And she said, I just think that there's a medicine that I reckon you would really benefit from. Cause I just think that you've been through a lot and I think that this medicine might help a little bit. And then it dawned on me that, that all of these appointments that she'd made me come back for, none of them were for Ari. They were entirely for me.

• 1:28:25Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  But she knew that if she came out swinging at the start going, you're not well, I would never have gone back. I would never have seen her again and I would have just been swallowed up into just the dark hole of depression. Because I hadn't, I hadn't suffered from postnatal depression, from what I could understand. I had suffered from postnatal anxiety. I knew that beast. I could, I could pick that beast out in the lineup. I knew what that looked like, I knew what it felt like, knew what it smelt like, everything. I was intimately familiar with postnatal anxiety. But postnatal depression, did I, that was new to me. And I just felt that I, I was sad, not even sad, I was numb, I was completely numb. Everything was dark and I thought that was just because I was tired.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  And that was because I was recovering from a traumatic like thing and, and soon it would be easy. Like as soon as he was like crawling, I'd be fine.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  But she said, and I think we'll just have this tablet and I've done the score because they do like a depressant, what's it called? There's the, they do the test after you've had a baby. They wanted to see how depressed you are. I can't remember what it is, Edinburgh, something, I'm not sure. I do this test and they're like, you just don't panic, but you've scored a little bit high on that. And I reckon we'll just start this and we'll see how you go.

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  And I went over to the chemist and I'd realised that there was like a pep in my step. Like I was like, oh, I knew there was something in me which hadn't really recognised, but how I knew that I needed that. I was like, oh, this is gonna hurry up. What are you, what are you waiting for? You know, it's helped you in the past. So I got this medicine, I came home, I took, I took it and within, I know it doesn't kick in like for a bit, but within hours. I was like, I'm good. I worked it out, I'm okay, I'm gonna be fine. But the weeks up until that were the darkest, most awful days, where the difference between postnatal anxiety and depression is just like night and day.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  Postnatal anxiety was loud and it was bright and it was chaotic and there was so much movement. But with postnatal depression, for me, it was like this stillness and this darkness.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  And there was no flicker of light to be seen. And I thought I, again, completely deserved it. Because I'd made mistakes along the way and this was just my penance.

• 1:30:59Speaker 00

  They're very beautifully described and I just, I just am thinking about people who are listening to this, who are relating to either of those two and just, yeah, the importance of.

• 1:31:12Speaker 00

  Seeking medical.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:31:14Speaker 00

  Even if they have to use trickery on you to, to get you to go, but that just going and even asking a question.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Hmm. And it's normal to feel fury at the people who ask. I, I was angry at this doctor, both doctors. I was like, taken aback with how frank they were at the time when they actually had to broach the question. And I was so angry, but that's exactly the response that they were probably expecting. Like, of course you're feeling angry because you didn't, you thought that you were gonna get through this beautifully. Are you disappointed that you weren't as good at this? Or, you know, when I say good at this, it's not, I know now, it's not about being good at something or bad at something. It's about how you're, how you're handling it and the, the pedestal that you put yourself on. And I'm from a long line of like stoic women.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  And my nan and my mum and all of these, or my aunties, who seemed to me, look like motherhood looked so easy. And none of them ever talked about it. None of them ever said, oh, that was, like, my mum was laughed. She'd go, God, you were an awful baby. Oh, my God, you're awful. I used to, put a bit of string around my ankle and the other string on the pram and I would kick the pram down the hallway and then pull you back and kick you down the hallway and pull you back. And it was just like a funny tale that she told, about how hard it was to get me to sleep and how much I cried.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  But I reckon if she was honest about that time, who the hell wants to do that? As if she would have been like, this is gonna, this is so funny. I'm loving this. My leg is killing me.

• 1:32:41Speaker 00

  I've got four others.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. She would have had it, but we, we're just told to find the funny in it quick. Find the funny in this quick. You're covered in vomit. You've got no identity left. You've, you feel guilty about A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Like, you've got so much, all of this stuff, but quickly, find a, make it funny. Quickly, as soon as you make it funny, we're all gonna feel comfortable.

• 1:33:02Speaker 00

  So can I ask, like, how is Ari now? How old? So Ari's.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  Ari's four now. Oh, he is incredible.

• 1:33:09Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  He's so, so great. Um, but the, after the, after the episode or whatever they want to call it, they said, when they sent us home, they said, just, we don't know what damage has been done. We don't know what that was. We don't know if these bleeds on his brain are, uh, have im- impacted him long term. Um, we also don't know, cause when he came in, he had no blood sugar level that we don't know. Cause one of the doctors had said, look, if he comes out of this, great. But if he comes out of this, I also want you to remember that when someone has no blood sugar level for a certain amount of time, it does, it, it's, it couldn't cause brain damage. So we don't know how long he was limp for. So, and I was like, I, it was hours, like, cause I was at home going, he's just so tired.

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  Cause it was overnight. I was going, God, he's just not feeding. And I, that's weird. He's so tired. And so again, I was like, I should have come in earlier. Now he's got brain damage. This, and the future is so unclear. And so when we got home, they were like, his milestones will be delayed because his head is huge. And it is a magnificently large head. Let's not, like, when people give him, when people are silly enough to give him a kid's hat. Oh, boy, is there egg on their face. Uh, cause he, it looks so funny. Uh, he wouldn't stop in the street and go, that is he not, but you, I have had, I've been into the GP before with my daughter. And I was like, oh, she's just got a sore knee. And this is when Ari would have been, I don't know, six months old.

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  And he was kind of sitting on my lap. And I was going, so she's got a sore knee. If you just looked at, but the doctor, when I looked up, she was just staring at Ari.

• 1:34:41Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  And I was like, no, no, this one, this, the girl, one, this one, uh, she's, it's on her knee. And she just, I, she said, I'm so sorry. I just have to ask, did you birth that head?

• 1:34:51Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  And I said, yeah. She went, you are incredible. And I am. And so it is, so he, he has an adult's, I guess, a ginormous head. So he has all adult's hats. But they'd said, we don't know what it's gonna, we don't know. We've not, we'd love to give you answers, but we just don't know. So his milestones are going to be delayed because his head's so big, it's gonna be hard of him to sit up and crawl and walk. Because he's just got a bowling ball on top of that tiny little neck. So we thought, okay, so there's gonna be no delays because physically it's harder, but we don't know mentally at what, what we're gonna be dealing with. So when he started, any milestone he's reached, we have been, I especially, Lucas is like, of course he's gonna be fine.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Because he truly believed that. He was like, he's gonna be fine. But I didn't. So every milestone he's reached, I've been like, this has been, this, you nailed it, mate. And so he's talking and he's at, you know, he goes to, he's got one more year left of Montessori's. And every single time we have a, a meeting with the teachers, they're like, yeah, he's great. Like they, they don't know any, we've told them, but they were like, oh yeah, okay, cool. Yeah. And yeah, he's fine. He's got, he's got his best mates and a list of friends and he really likes doing this in class. And yeah, so any questions? I'm like, and he's fine? And they're like, yeah, yeah, he's, hasn't this your third kid? Why are you acting like this is a miracle? I'm like, cause for a week, it was really likely he was not gonna be fine.

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  And we still don't know what that did, but he, he truly seems fine. And this is, this is exactly the story of him is, is, is what I needed to hear. In that, that week, I remember being on my phone, just scouring through the internet, just for a story like this, but I couldn't find it. It was always a really bleak one. It was, the ending was bad. Or it just, it was unrelatable. And one doctor kept saying to me, and this is again with, it's hard to know what to say. And there's so many wrong things to say. A doctor said to me, oh, oh, he's a chick. Have you got girls? I said, yeah, he's my, he's my first son.

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  And she said, oh, this is classic boys, classic boys. They're troubled, they're slick, they're lazy. I was like, what are you doing? How are we making this about agenda? He's three days old. Like, oh God, my son doesn't pick up his socks. It's like, yeah.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Neither does mine, to be fair.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  So I know that everyone's trying to say the right thing. Uh, and there are so many things that you, that are the incorrect thing to say. But sometimes nothing at all is harder. And I think we, one of the reasons we say nothing, there's a few things I've thought about this a lot. One of the reasons we don't say anything to women, to mums when they're struggling is because we don't want to say the wrong thing. But also we kind of, we're so used to seeing a mum struggle, like you seeing that woman. Lots of people would have walked past and seen that woman crying with all of the things falling down and the kids crying. So many people have seen that and so many people would, after a few days, completely have forgotten.

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  We're so used to seeing women struggle with their mental health over massive hormonal shifts in their lives. Whether it is, uh, having a baby or down the line menopause. Where, when my mum went through menopause, she lost her mind completely. She was a stranger, we were living with a stranger and we'd no idea where our mum had gone. Um, and at the time we were the victims in that, we really felt like we were the victims because we were like, where'd our mum go? Like this, we've just been replaced by this angry, angry lady.

• 1:38:38Speaker 02

  Why is she doing this to us?

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we need our mum, like we're, we're teenagers. Where's, like, why is she yelling at us again or why is she slamming the door? Why is she throwing a casserole dish across the kitchen? Like what is happening? But now as an adult, I can reflect on that and how scary for her. Like she has no idea why she's this angry and her mum wouldn't have talked about menopause with her. And it was, and my nan, like God knows what went through, she went through when she went through menopause. Cause no one would have talked about it then, but they would have witnessed all their friends kind of losing their minds. Because it's this huge hormonal upheaval where we just go, oh, I don't know who I am anymore.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  Or I, I don't know if I've made any of the right decisions, but I know I feel uncomfortable in my own skin. And then all the people who depend on you, because as a mother, you've got all of these dependents around you and all these people who think they know who you are and you've always put yourself last. So why on earth would you now make a fuss of yourself? So I think we are used to watching women go mad.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  And we're used to waiting patiently for them to work it out.

• 1:39:49Speaker 00

  Well, I just think it's such a generous story for you to share and I like thousands and thousands and thousands of mums around the country will relate. And like I do feel like it's a story we don't hear a lot about because I just like exactly what you're going through. Like I need to cope. I've seen other people cope. I don't want to share that I'm not coping. So I really hope that this helps so many mums out there to feel less alone in what they're going through and to and to seek help. So Ron, thank you so much. Yeah, you are truly amazing and your kids are so incredibly lucky. I haven't still haven't found out what religion Ari was, but that's okay, we can do a follow up episode. But thank you so much for your time today. He's anti hospital.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  Thanks dads.

• 1:40:39Speaker 04

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