Ben Crowe - Play School

When Ben Crowe, world-renowned professional mentor and leadership coach, tells us his favourite mantra, we listen. “I am enough no matter what, but I’m not done yet”. 📺 If you’d like to watch this full episode on YouTube, follow this link - https://youtu.be/-0WWUuxvcyQ Back in The Academy of Imperfection FOR THE THIRD TIME, Ben is here to talk to Hugh, Ryan and Josh about purpose, play and love. As Ben explains, ‘play’ and ‘love’ mean something different to everyone, however, they are both ridiculously important and explicitly linked. If love is the intention, then play is the action. Ben, as always, it was an absolute pleasure to your wisdom bestowed upon us. 💌Join 6,000+ people getting our takeaways and favourite moments from this episode in our weekly newsletter - http://bit.ly/45NyQDy 0:00 – Is Ben the Pope? 11:13 – Acceptance vs compassion, confidence vs belief 15:14 – Reshaping your belief system 25:05 – Just Admit It List 30:42 – The dreaded E word 37:47 – Reward effort, not outcome 46:00 – Play deprivation 51:47 – Talking to teenagers about their career 1:01:47 – How to be a (anxious) leader 1:07:04 – Josh’s too generous assumption 1:10: 14 – Doing it for the right reasons 🎧Other episodes of The Imperfects mentioned in this episode The Academy of Imperfection - Ben Crowe - https://bit.ly/40rkUgd Ben Crowe (Pt 1) - Meet Your Inner Fan - https://bit.ly/46VlfeK Ben Crowe (Pt 2) - Now BE Your Inner Fan - https://bit.ly/413kVXL Kate Reid (Pt 1) - The Impossibility of Perfection - https://bit.ly/4ruVAkz Kate Reid (Pt 2) - The Life-Saving Croissant - https://bit.ly/4by6NMl Dr Emily - Acceptance, That’s Radical - https://bit.ly/4bAomLD 📖 Things to read Where The Light Gets In, by Ben Crowe - https://bit.ly/4s04xmN The Courage To Be Disliked, by Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga - https://bit.ly/411Qbq4 🎧 Things to listen to How Ben Crowe Dads - https://bit.ly/4bidPDH 😃If you liked this episode, check out these! Bronnie Ware - What Are Your Future Regrets? - https://bit.ly/40lcG9p Emma Murray - How Mindfulness Actually Works - https://bit.ly/4lpS5dR 🩷To host your own Vulnerabilitea House, purchase here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuWz 🩵To purchase our journal (or your novel) My Imperfect Life, click here - http://bit.ly/4lyuuW 🩵To join our subscriber community, A Little More Imperfects, follow this link - http://bit.ly/4mqunxu 🩷 AND you can subscribe to A Little More Imperfects through Apple Podcasts too, here - http://apple.co/theimperfects The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  My favourite mantra is, I am enough, no matter what, but I'm not done yet. There's no finish line to your purpose, right? Again, if you're purpose driven, there's no finish line. You'll never get there.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  As one of the world's most in-demand mentor and leadership coaches, Ben has worked with the likes of Ash Barty, Andre Agassi, the 2017 Richmond Premiership team, just to name a few.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  You can't find a single definition of love and you can't find a single definition of play because it means something different to everyone. Love is the intention and play is the action. As human beings, all we need is love. As human doings, all we need is play.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  So play is just the key to it all, really, isn't it?

• 0:38Speaker 00

  It needs a fundamental rebrand.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  We also want to talk about expectations.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Careful here, it's a dangerous word, expectations. Isn't that right, Ben? You've definitely read the first page.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Ryan has officially read page one of the book. Be careful.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  We're all born with X chromosomes or XY chromosomes. However, there is one man who was born with something else. The Ben chromosome.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Good, very good.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  And he's here.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  How long have you been sitting on that?

• 1:22Speaker 02

  About two days. I quickly ran into Belle next door and I said, hang on, X chromosomes, Y chromosomes. Who has what? Is it X or one X?

• 1:30Speaker 00

  The chromosome.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  So the Ben chromosome is here today. I think I'm on it, I don't know. Yeah, no, you have got the Ben chromosome. You're the only one who does, so it's pretty special. I'm original. Yeah, you're original.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Question. A strange way to start an interview with Ben Crowe, but a question for you, Josh and Ryan.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Do you know Ben's actual first name?

• 1:49Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:50Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Hey, Ben's first, um, As the?

• 1:56Speaker 00

  As the Crowe.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  No. Um, what is it?

• 2:00Speaker 00

  It's Benedict Crow. Is it? Wow, that's good. I highly recommend you change it to Benedict.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  As your stage name.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Amazing. There was a period there when the Pope became Pope Benedict. Oh, yeah. And his full name was Pope Benedict Joseph. And my full name is Benedict Joseph. I thought, oh, and my mum's a strict Catholic and she was wrapped, right? I don't think maybe certain miracles might start happening as well. Yeah. My full name is Benedict Joseph Anthony Crow. And my Twitter handle was Benjo Tony Crow. I often do an icebreaker, like what's in a name when we're running a session. And I get the person to sit next to them and tell them the full backstory of their name. Hmm. Right. So obviously my full name is Benedict Joseph Anthony Crow. And then I ask them to ask questions like, you know, did you like your name growing up? No, thank you, Hugh. That is a lovely name.

• 2:54Speaker 00

  Any boy growing up in the 1970s at St John's Mitchum with, you know, Dick in his name. You know, the first day of school with a new teacher, the kids were just, I used to go home crying. And I said, why'd you call me Benedict? Why couldn't you have called me Benjamin or Ben or whatever? Then I say, if you could have chosen your own name, what would you have chosen? Steve War.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  That's a surname as well, Hugh. That's what I wanted as a kid. Anyway, sorry. For me, it's Valentino. Whoa. I don't think Valentino Crow sounds that, but anyway, I just love the name Valentino. I think your life looks completely different if you're Valentino. I think, I think I look very different too. Oh, that's a, that's a whole different sliding door. Every time I go to Italy or Spain, there's a lot of good looking Valentinos there. And the last question I say, look, is there any interesting tidbits about your, about your name? Right. And I tell the story in 2012, Les Mis had just come out with, with Russell Crowe and Hugh Jackman. And I was at LA airport and I was flying back to Australia, but I wasn't going direct to Melbourne. I was going via Sydney.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  And my colleague said to the Qantas steward at the check-in, she said, surely you can do something for Russell Crowe's brother? She looks at my passport. I don't look anything like Russell Crowe. And she'd just seen the movie and she goes, oh my God, oh my God, I've been dying to find this out. Did Russell do his own singing in the movie? And I'm thinking, oh shit, she thinks I'm Russell Crowe's brother and I haven't even seen the movie. And then I thought, what would Russell Crowe's brother say to that question? And I said, yeah, that's why he was so bad.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Anyway, did, did, did, did, did. Not only did she get me on the direct flight, she upgraded me to first class. And then for the, for the last 10 years, when I fly Qantas, every now and then a check in, they kind of look at me and go, oh, how's your brother going?

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Do you think they've made a little note on your profile?

• 4:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, they did. Yeah. So I declared it on stage with the CEO of Qantas a few years ago. I just had to acknowledge as a Catholic. Technically, I didn't lie, right? Because I've got three brothers. So I'd say, yeah, my, my brother's really.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just didn't deny it.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Anyway, extension to Benedict.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Well, Hugh, everyone will probably know a lot about Ben Crowe. I've probably watched, you know, accessed him through Mojo Crowe or heard him on our podcast. He'd been on a few times before, but just a refresher, Hugh. Who's Ben Crowe?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  As one of the world's most in-demand mentor and leadership coaches, Ben has worked with the likes of Ash Barty, Andre Agassi, the 2017 Richmond Premiership team and the AFL Dylan Orkot, Steph Gilmore, just to name a few. But it's an absolute privilege that we get to call Ben a friend of the show and a friend of our lives.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, lives.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  And a hugely influential part of my life for sure.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Ben's first episode with us was way back in 2021, when he focused on finding purpose through owning your own life story. And that was really significant to you in particular, right?

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh God. Well, I mean, it's when we first caught up, Ben, I won't do the whole story. But basically when we caught up, I really had never heard anything about shame, vulnerability, or Brené Brown, or purpose, or any of the, I'd heard the words before, but I'd never knew what it was. And you, in a 45 minute session, coffee that we had together, you basically gave me the rundown of what those things are and how they could help me. And within a couple of hours, I would say, even a couple of days, to really clarify, I'd figured out what my purpose statement is, what my shame was, and then to have the sort of like.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  To understand the importance of being vulnerable about those things and sharing them. And that's basically, it was such a, such a building block, I think, of me being able to do this podcast at all. And so I've been, I've thanked you for that multiple times and there will be a time where I'll stop thanking you, but it's not yet. So thank you, thank you for that.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  You know, we've got the book launch tonight. And we have sold out 1300 people coming on. I'd say 80% of the audience have written to us or me personally and saying, thank you for that podcast. For helping them through the pandemic, but they were referencing that, you know, that specific episode, which, which I said at the time, it's not me. It's just where the world's at, you know, right now, or what it was back then, and the principles that you can kind of share. So congratulations to you guys, obviously as well.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  In our second episode with Ben, we looked at meeting your inner fan through the role of love. And our third, and actually we did a split episode because it was just so much in it. We did over two episodes. And so the third part, well, sorry, part two to the episode was about being your inner fan. And Josh, I know that was like, turned out to be quite a helpful thing for you.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think in that, I think we discussed this in that episode, but you and I, you very kindly did a session with me. And we had a long chat and a lot of good things came out of it, but there was a specific mantra that we discovered. And I, that, and that mantra was that at my worst, I'm good enough.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, you had a wedding to emcee or something.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, that might've been it. Yeah. I think I had something coming up that I was really nervous about and it might've been that emceeing the wedding or, yeah. And I came up with that and then I mentioned it to a friend and he, before our big live tour and I was so nervous. I'm just, used to be terrified of public speaking. It's a real, it's really weird how you can kind of conquer fear when you think you can't. But I was terrified of it and he turned up on my doorstep before, the night before we left for the tour. And I had to sing on this tour as well. And he'd made a bunch of guitar picks for me. And the guitar pick had a picture of me and my two boys on one side. And on the other side, it said, at my worst, I'm good enough.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Oh my God, that is so beautiful.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so I carried them and played that, used them for the whole tour. And I think it's probably worth saying that of all the things we've done on the show, I think one of the most, maybe the most common thing that people who I don't know, strangers have come up and said is that they have used that mantra for themselves.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  That's so cool.

• 8:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that was felt so, it was really special.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Really special.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so relevant, isn't it?

• 9:05Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  We think we've got to be someone we're not, right? In those situations. So the courage mantra that you created. Yeah, it's, yeah. Thanks for sharing.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Pretty powerful stuff. Yeah, thank you.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  The reason Ben's here today, and most recently he has published Where the Light Gets In, his new book, which he's written. It's available absolutely everywhere. But before I, we talk about that, just like, I guess our kind of, well, I guess my reflection on you, what I've written down here. As my own notes, if I read it out, it sounds very strange, but I will.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Having spent time with you, Ben, often covered in sunscreen and rolling around in our speedos.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  Hang on, hang on.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  I'm wearing, I'm wearing board shorts. Who's wearing speedos?

• 9:47Speaker 03

  And we will link to that video in the show notes.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  So what I meant was often I'll say Ben down the beach is a better way to describe it, but Ben understands growth in a way that few do. It's something that often arrives uninvited. Us, everything of us, and if we're willing to listen, leaves us more human. He speaks from a place where values were tested, identity was reshaped and meaning became a non-negotiable. To work one-on-one with Ben is an invitation to live with intention, courage and heart.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  We are so happy to have you back.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Wow. Thank you, Hugh. Yeah. I'm supposed to not cry. I'm supposed to be the one that gets you guys emotional, but that's, yeah. Thank you very much. It's a privilege of a lifetime to do what I do. And I'll say this up the front. I've said this on all episodes. What you have created, and I remember talking with you, Hugh, before you actually created this program, right? And then what we've created over the last six years, and I know you know that because you get the feedback, but it's just so important and so relevant right now. And writing the book, it's, the book's literally called Where the Light Gets In, which is to celebrate imperfection. The wabi-sabi kintsugi, you know, Japanese philosophy and so forth. So, you know, it's an extension of what you guys have created. So congratulations.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  Oh, you're welcome, mate. You're absolutely welcome.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, it's, it's, I don't expect a credit in the book, but that's, that's good enough. We might have to hand, we'll handwrite one in.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Exactly right.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Version two.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Okay. So the first question, which, um, cause I know it's quite a long process writing the book. Um, what's the, what's the most important thing that you learnt whilst writing?

• 11:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's, um, and there's nine perspectives in the book. And while every chapter has a, a problem to solve or a mindset to shift, they all share one theme in common. And I didn't realise this until I'd actually written the book, obviously. Um, and that was learning to accept the things we can't control and accepting ourselves and focusing back on the things we can control. Of that, the, to answer your question, there was two things in particular that I learnt, um, when I was writing the book. One was the interrelationship between self-acceptance and self-compassion. I didn't truly understand that relationship and how powerful they are together. Self-acceptance is obviously accepting your imperfections. Self-compassion is being kinder to yourself along the way to make the landing softer.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Cause it's pretty jarring to accept that you're not, you know, accept your body image or accept your stage in life or so forth, where self-compassion can come along as a, as a friend.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  So like self-compassion makes the self-acceptance easier? Is that kind of, yeah?

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. So if we, if we developed a self-acceptance list, right? And you, you might write down the first thing on that list, you might accept that you're imperfect. Self-compassion then says, that's okay. You're a work in progress or you're also original. Um, self-compassion might say, haven't got it figured all, figured out yet. Self-compassion says, that's okay. You're on a journey. Um, just stay curious, stay playful. Self-acceptance might say, I can't please everyone. And self-compassion would say, that's okay. It's not your role in life to do so. So when you bring self-compassion into your self-acceptance list and, and bridge it, it's, it's incredibly easier to accept the things that for many years we haven't been accepting and therefore we've been suffering because we're comparing and judging ourselves

• 13:08Speaker 00

  accordingly. So that was a really big theme, um, that it took me a while to kind of understand that too. But probably the biggest. Thing I learnt writing the book, and this has had a profound impact, not just on my life, but all my clients. So, cause I was, great thing was, I only had two clients last year, which is Alex Carey, the cricketer, and Molly Pickham, the surfer. And so they were, unfortunately for them, they were guinea pigs. Fortunately for them, they had happy endings, right, in terms of what happened last year. But it was the interrelationship between confidence and belief. And what I learnt was as human doings, we need confidence. But as human beings, we need belief. And most people come to me for confidence in their skills. But

• 13:49Speaker 00

  what they lack is belief in themselves. Now, confidence is evidence based, right? It's learned experience. You learn how to run, you learn how to hit a cricket ball and so forth, and you get experience for it. And you'll trust your skills as a consequence. But belief is existential based. Like, you can believe in a God, even though you can't prove he or she exists, just like you can believe in your potential, even though you haven't got there yet. Now, if, what I found fascinating, when I was kind of, obviously writing the book and getting deep into this concept, was if confidence and belief had a punch up in the street, right, they have a fisticuffs in the street, I often ask

• 14:29Speaker 00

  my clients, who do you think will win? And so often, they say confidence. And I say, uh-uh. Belief kicks confidence's ass in a street fight. Cause confidence is evidence based. Confidence goes, have I been here before? Belief goes, I haven't been here before. But I believe in my potential, and I'll trust I'll figure it out.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  So did you, so in writing, or I guess just in every aspect of your life, do you believe in yourself?

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. So there's two core beliefs, right? And what I'd love to, I mean, if we get time to, is literally explain how we develop our beliefs, and how we reframe our beliefs. Especially the beliefs that have been holding us back.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Let's do that now. This would be a good time to do that now.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. So, our belief system gets shaped by our life story, right? Things happen to us in life, shit happens to us in life, and we believe something, right? Good or bad, or right or wrong about ourselves, or the world, or... Our place in the world. Now, unfortunately, with our reptilian brain and a negative bias, what we believe often, especially about ourselves, is more negative than positive. So going through the process, there were two core beliefs, and I firmly believe this. I think I said that Hugh and I discussed this over the summer. There's only two core beliefs, and if as a parent, if you can instill them in your kids, or as a human, you can instill them in yourselves, you're kind of bulletproof, in my opinion. You've still got to develop skills for whatever it is you want to do in terms of your passions in life.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  The first belief is to believe that I'm worthy, like no matter what, just as I am. Yeah, because if I do believe that, I'll trust that whether I win or lose today, or whether I win or lose in life, it's all good, right? Because I'm worthy no matter what. You could just call that love, or unconditional love. Of yourself. Yeah, yourself and others. The second belief is to believe in your potential. And then trust if you keep chipping away, keep working away at it, things will take care of themselves. You could just call that courage. Some people call this attachment and authenticity. Indigenous tribes call this roots and wings.

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, foundational roots that I'm worthy of love no matter what. And then the courage to spread my wings and just see how far I can fly in life. Yeah, so identifying the beliefs that are holding you back. Josh, we did that with the courage mantra before your public speaking event. So identifying the beliefs that are holding you back. But that second belief in particular, and we will, I'll show the process that we take people through to reframe their beliefs. What I'm so excited about right now is, especially traveling around the world, one of the biggest fears in the world is the fear of uncertainty. Like what's going on with COVID and Trump and wars and so forth. There is so much uncertainty in the world right now.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  You think about it, if you can believe in your potential and trust that you'll figure it out, trust that you'll get there, that fundamentally changes your relationship with uncertainty. It changes your relationship with the future. Like we can't control the future, obviously. And by definition, we can't control uncertainty, but we can control our relationship with uncertainty. And that changes everything. That creates the future as this next moment is one of excitement and possibility and and opportunity and give me the ball. Let's see what we can do in this particular moment, right? So you get excited about the future rather than anxious about the future.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  And that, and that like, in my experience, that, that is, I find that really easy to do when the stakes are low. But when the stakes are high and I'm really anxious or I'm really worried and my belief is low, um, I, I find it really hard to, to put that into action.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the thing is, Ryan has thousands of thoughts every day. You don't know when one of these thoughts become a belief.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  What we do know though, is once it becomes a belief, it's much, much harder to change.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  But how does it become a belief?

• 18:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the thing. You start to think about it and think about it and think about it and think about it and think about it. And you find evidence to support that this is true. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not pretty enough, right? You'll find, if you look hard enough, you'll find it. But similarly, if you look for evidence to prove that you can do it, or you, you know, you are a work in progress, you'll find that evidence as well. So.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Sorry, you don't think I'm pretty enough?

• 18:50Speaker 00

  I don't think you're pretty enough. Well, I think Josh is prettier, but.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  No, I have to concede that is strange.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  Sorry.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  I'm happy with that.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  So then the process is, okay, so how do you reframe your beliefs, right? So the back of the envelope that we talk about in the book is first and foremost, and you can, we can actually make this a session if you wanted to, right? Is identify what's one belief that may be holding me back in my life at the moment, or in reaching my potential. So you identify a core belief that might be holding you back in some way, shape or form. And then you say, the second part is, okay, and what's the consequences of holding on to this belief? What's the impact of having, holding on to this belief I've had for a very, very long time, right? And it might be in terms of I'm comparing myself or I'm lacking energy, I'm unmotivated, I'm not happy, so forth. So you identify the impact that this belief is happening.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  But in the same way that you used to believe in the tooth fairy, or you used to believe in Father Christmas or Santa Claus and.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  What?

• 19:47Speaker 00

  And no longer do. So apologies if you still do.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Excuse me?

• 19:50Speaker 00

  Okay, so I didn't.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  What's going on?

• 19:55Speaker 00

  I didn't say that. Hypothetically, hypothetically.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Okay. You can also reframe other core beliefs, in particular about yourself. Right. So, once you, once you realise that, you know, you had the power to, you can't reframe what happened. You can't reframe history. You can alter your interpretation of it and identify a new belief of that. That moment happened, right? But you can reframe your relationship and interpretation of that. So what if that old belief is wrong? What if I can do this? And what if it all works out?

• 20:27Speaker 02

  I wonder if, just, just while we're on this, I feel like in the abstract, this is kind of hard to get your head around. But I wonder if anyone has like a belief.

• 20:34Speaker 03

  Well, I, yeah, I was, maybe it's relevant. I, I've been wanting to say that I, I feel like for me personally, I've always felt worthy of love from my siblings and parents. I've been really lucky to have an upbringing where I, yeah, I feel worthy of love. And I think it's one of the reasons I've probably ended up with an incredible wife and life partner. Is because I had a very good sense of what love is and that I'm worthy of a good version of love and a healthy relationship. But then I've never had a sense of belief that I'm, I'm worthy of success or worthy of doing, being successful.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  And I, this podcast is the most important thing in like, there's my family and this podcast, like, I just love it. I love it so much. And an idea popped into my head recently, a pernicious idea of like, what if this doesn't exist one day? And what if this stops for whatever reason? And I found myself getting very sad because I was thinking, well, Bridge is incredible. She'll get, if, if, if the worst thing happens and this ends, Bridge is amazing. She'll be like producer of the best show in the world of some variety. Hugh has built a business, he's incredible, he'll do amazing things. Ryan is one of the funniest, most creative, talented people ever.

• 21:57Speaker 03

  I I I don't know what I'll do. I I could end up working at the local, you know, cafe. That'd be good enough. That's nice. That's fun. But I I don't, for whatever reason, I haven't been able to imbue this, the the success of this show as evidence that I'm worthy of success.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  And that there's something still holding me back of like, no, this is just a fluke. You're on the coattails of other people. It was great fun. And not that you didn't deserve to have this great experience. It's been wonderful, but uh it was a one off, you know?

• 22:32Speaker 00

  Beautiful. So the core belief is I don't believe I'm worthy of success.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 00

  The consequences of holding on to this belief is every now and then this fear comes in of what if this all fails?

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  This doesn't work out. What am I gonna do next?

• 22:43Speaker 03

  And I think possibly a constant fear of like, oh, could this all fall over at any point? Cause like, because it's it's a, cause in my case, it's a fluke.

• 22:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And that affects your energy, motivation, creativity, just enjoyment, right?

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  Of the future. So if the if the goal is, okay, what if, what if you're wrong? What if you can do this? What if this is going to be an incredible success? And what if it all works out?

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  So flip the script. What would be an empowering reframe, Josh? Of that original belief? Like, what would be the opposite of that old OG belief?

• 23:16Speaker 03

  Um.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Oh, it's hard to find, cause I think for this to work, it has to be really authentic to me.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:25Speaker 03

  Because I I find it hard to put any language in there that uh maybe.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  But actually, and start with, I believe, right? Cause we're literally flipping the script now. Yeah, the old belief I wasn't worthy of success. What's the new belief?

• 23:42Speaker 03

  All right, it's a bit, I'll start low, but I believe that maybe if I've done it once, maybe I can do it again.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  And if you believe you've done it once and you can do it again, what will you have trust in moving forward?

• 23:59Speaker 03

  The other people I do with, no. Or maybe that's a good, that maybe trust that I could find great people to succeed with.

• 24:08Speaker 00

  Believe you've done it once, you can do it again and you keep chipping away, you keep working with great people. Things will, things will work out.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:15Speaker 00

  And if you genuinely believe that and have trust in that, you start to find evidence, right? You look for, you don't need evidence to reframe a belief, you do, that's, you know, confidence is evidence based. But if you want to fast track that belief, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that you've done some pretty good things on this show for the last six years, right? And the live show as well, and you know, you're developing and learning and growing. You start to find this evidence to go, yeah, I do believe in my potential and our potential. And I do therefore trust that I've done it once, I can do it before and I'll keep chipping away. And you start to focus on that new belief over time, right? And you start to find little bits of evidence along the way that says, yes, yeah, maybe this will work, work out, right? You start to get excited about the future rather than just what if this all goes away one day?

• 24:57Speaker 00

  You start to think about possibility and opportunity, you start to play with the future rather than fear the future.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so you can start to do that. We did this in real time last year, both with Alex, but Molly Picklem is probably my favorite athlete journey of last year. Who she really.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  I liked Alex.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  He had a pretty good year.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  Alex had a very, very good year.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  In terms of these principles, Molly's my favorite. I don't take favorites with athletes, they're all, they're all my favorites.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  I mean, to be fair, you did just name Molly.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  Story, Ryan, favorite story. Okay, smart ass. So she struggled with acceptance really, really badly. And that's why I said this, this podcast ran imperfect because it's literally about, you know, accepting imperfections. But she just struggled with the concept of acceptance, which most people do, by the way. It's not an easy kind of, it's quite a nebulous concept to get your head around. So she found another way in and I'd never worked with a client who developed this, but she developed a just admit at least. Not a just do at least, a just admit at least. Cause the most successful people in life have an appetite for the truth by saying, what am I in denial of? So what are you in denial of, Molly? And right, and the first thing she wrote down in her just admit at least was that she was scared. Really beautiful.

• 26:15Speaker 00

  The second thing she wrote down in her just admitting that she wasn't admitting that she. Wanted to win a world title and she could believe she was good enough to win a world title, right? So that was the the first step. And then she could transfer all that list into her acceptance list. So she started to understand the power of acceptance. And then she did really well for the first four or five events of the year. The second step, once you develop acceptance, is confidence in her skills and her coaches and her new boards and so forth. So, because there was a lot of changes going on for last year. So she developed confidence in her skills, but we noticed something halfway through the year, that whenever she got to a quarter final or, you know, she'd just capitulate or her style of surfing changed dramatically. And looked at it and go, this isn't a confidence issue. This is a belief issue.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  So the next kind of session with Molly, after the Australian leg, I think there was five events left on the world tour. And she was doing pretty well, right? But not blowing the everyone out of the water at this stage. Anyway, in a very, very emotional session, she was able to identify the two core beliefs holding her back, which were those two two core beliefs, that she wasn't, she thought she had to win a world title in order to be worthy of love, which is very common for athletes. And the second one is she didn't believe in her potential. So in the last minute or two of a heat, she'd just kind of tighten up rather than lighten up and she'd either, you know, fall off of her surfboard or, you know, just make a the wrong decision. Once she was able to reframe those two core beliefs, she then went back into the water.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  She made the final of all five events. She won three of them. And then she's just become Australia's latest world champion surfer. Amazing. And in her victory speech, she said she did two things. She honored her beliefs, her new beliefs, and she had trust in the unknown. And that's for me, probably the most profound way of explaining the combination, if you can get those two beliefs, right? So, and by the way, in terms of one belief's around love and one's about courage to kind of go out there and realise your potential, in my opinion, love trumps courage. Because if you don't believe you're worthy of love. Ah, sorry, I heard I love Trump's courage.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  No, no, no. Love, yeah, exactly. They're different, yes. Love trumps courage. Yes. Because if you don't believe you're worthy of love, you're going to go searching for it in all the wrong places, to the detriment of living a life true to you and having the courage just to be you, which is authenticity, right? So yeah, that foundational belief, in my opinion, is the most important to start with. But the second one is still really important. Because as you said, Josh, you might believe that you're worthy of love, but you're not believing in, you don't believe you're worthy of success. Yeah. So identifying that second belief. And by the way, I think that's the belief that holds most of us back from kind of realising our potential. Yeah.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  Can I ask just to follow up on the role of other people in reframing your beliefs? Because I think, Tim, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this because it feels like it could be dangerous. But also, I feel in my case, one of the main things that allowed me to overcome my fear of public speaking and do a live show was the belief that the other people in this room, and George and Bella as well, but back in the day when we were doing the first live show, that really that Ryan, Hugh and Bridge had in me that I could do it.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:36Speaker 03

  And I felt like I needed their belief to get me to a point where I believed it myself.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Is it, is there a healthy role for other people in belief? Or can it be a dangerous slippery path?

• 29:48Speaker 00

  No, absolutely. Because if you're looking for evidence, that could be qualitative evidence that you've got incredible feedback from past episodes. And that can reinforce this new belief that you've got, that you do believe your potential is true. Conversely, if you're getting negative feedback, and I think when Hugh and I very first met, like, you know, many, many years ago, he'd just got negative feedback from someone. And therefore, he was, you know, really, can really shake us up. So be careful about who you listen to. And that's why it's so important to surround yourself with good people who want to see you go on a journey. Because there's a lot of negative people out there as well that can kind of sabotage your belief system if you listen to it. Be very cautious, you know, be very careful if you like and consider it in terms

• 30:30Speaker 00

  of what information you choose in to believe as part of yourself. But if it comes from a place of love or courage, in most cases, yeah, you definitely want to surround yourself with those people.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Hmm. Interesting.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Hmm. Um. The other two things I'd love. So we also want to talk about expectation today. We also want to talk about play because they're such key components.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Careful here. It's a dangerous word, expectations. Isn't that right Ben?

• 30:53Speaker 00

  You've definitely read the first page.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Ryan has officially read page one of the book.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Be careful. Be very careful.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  But we also have, we have this wonderful Patreon audience who, who had questions that they want to ask as well. So we've got some questions for them. So, um, knowing that we want to talk about expectation and I'll be very careful that play and then some questions from the audience. So can we talk about expectation now? Cause I know it was such a key part of this book for you.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. And I deliberately made chapter one of the book, the dreaded E word, as Ryan, uh, so kindly mentioned. Um, and the dreaded E word is expectations. Cause I thought if a teenager doesn't read and picks up my book, what would be one theme that could possibly change their life or, or save their life? Um, and for me, it's, um, reframing their definition of what is expected of them in life. And more importantly, what isn't expected of them in life. Um, and I used to say it's sabotaging, you know, um, our performances, which it is, but it's also sabotaging humans in terms of the pressure we put out, put on ourselves today, in terms of how we define.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  You mean expectations are sabotaging humans?

• 32:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. To how we define expectations. When you and I were growing up, Ryan, expectations used to mean something we can control a hundred percent, right? Cause I can want the sun to come up tomorrow, but I can't guarantee it, right? There's no promises. So there's no expectations. But today, because we're obsessed with opinions of others or obsessed with greed and growth and so forth, um, our definition today is something we can't control, but we still expect it, which is also the definition of pressure. So our definition of expectations is also a definition of pressure. Which is why whenever you watch the tennis or the cricket or any reality TV show, you'll always hear those two words mentioned in the same sentence.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  There's so much pressure, there's so much expectations. So the quickest way to reframe expectations is to reframe how we define it as something we can control 100%. The goal is to win, the expectation is to focus on the things we can control. As we mentioned in the last episode, it's now the number one deathbed regret. I wish I had the courage to live a life true to me and to be me rather than the expectations of others. So even on our deathbed, we're still getting distracted by this and it's so damaging because we think the game is winning. So we get scores at school, getting the best grades at university, we get a job, but we still don't feel like we're enough.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  We still feel like we have to live up to the expectations of others and I'm not hanging around till I'm 65 to continue to feel this way.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  And is it fair to say as well that those expectations are rarely actually stated? They're kind of assumed expectations.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Correct, correct. And there's two in particular that's, in my opinion, sabotaging the whole world. One is the expectation that we have to please others or prove ourselves to others or be validated by society or live up to someone else's expectations, which causes emotional pressure. God, I've got to please Ryan, I've got to please Hugh, I've got to please Josh. And the second one is the expectations of outcome, the future, which we can't control. Now that causes outcome pressure. Yeah, so identifying our form of interference, if you like, is always associated between those two. So, okay, so how do we flip the script?

• 34:28Speaker 00

  Well, what about our definition of expectations now as only things that I can control for myself and only for me? Because... Believing I have to live up to someone else's expectations is not my life task. That's not my role in life. I can't control it anyway, to your point. But what I think about myself, what kind of human do I want to be, what my values are, what my goals are, what my dreams are. Yeah, I can control those. I can't control whether I get there or not, but I can control what they are. So we become more self-determined, not socially determined.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Right. So when you start to become self-determined, you determine what your taste buds like, or what makes you laugh, or what makes you cry, or what you stand up for or stand for. You start to stay in your lane because that's our only role in life. We still love others and are connected to others, but we can't believe our role in life is to live up to someone else's expectations.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  And it's so damaging. And last year I was working, doing some work with the San Antonio Spurs, the NBA team. And I was working with their coaches and we did this whole session on how to remove pressure, you know, at the free throw line by focusing on the things they could control. Right. And redefining expectations, right? And the next day I spent some time with the University of Texas Health Division, and they have this joint venture. And I was talking to the head of psychiatry and I said, okay, what's going on? What are the big issues for? And she said, Ben, the amount of kids in colleges in America now that are dropping out of college in the first semester, and it's costing us billions. And I said, what's the root cause? And she said, pressure. And you know, whenever you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Whenever I hear the word pressure, I kind of intuitively know what's going on.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  And I said, obviously emotional pressure or outcome pressure. And she said, both. And then she said something quite alarming. And I can't believe she said it second, not first. She said, also, Ben, the amount of kids that are self-harming in colleges in America today because of this pressure. And it frustrates me so much because we are putting pressure on ourselves because we're focusing on the wrong expectations. Right. It's, as I said, it's not a teenager's role in life to please someone else, live up to their expectations. You still want to be a good human for you. And if that impacts others, that's fantastic. But I think our confusion today and it's causing so much pressure, especially on teenagers and so forth. And I get asked all the time, you know, is it media, is it social media that's causing this?

• 36:50Speaker 00

  And I say it is, but it's also consumerism and materialism. But it starts in the education system, right? In grade three in most countries around the world, that's when grading gets introduced. And kids go from intrinsically playing with shapes and playing with numbers, suddenly extrinsic, right? Cause there's grades and suddenly my parents are interested in my grades. And suddenly I'm not in that class or I'm in that class.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  A nine-year-old boy or girl, they're too young at that age because from that moment on, they start to believe that they have to do something or, or achieve something, right? In order to be someone.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  And that just continues on through their whole life, right?

• 37:28Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  And that's for me, that's one of the most damaging things, but that's not their expectation in life, to get grades to please their parents, all right? Their expectations in life is to be the best version of themselves. And if they can learn that at a much younger age, we stop comparing ourselves and judging ourselves and putting all this pressure on ourselves as well.

• 37:46Speaker 03

  Something that I'm struggling with a little bit as a parent and would love some advice on, I think. And I think this must be a common thing. But when your child shows an interest and particular talent, I, I think, I think interest probably comes before talent or, or, but when they show an interest and talent at something and they're really good at it and you see them light up and you're so proud of them for giving it a go and getting better and seeing this journey of growth and development on something. I find it very hard as a parent to know, cause I don't wanna put that pressure of expectation on them that they need to, that be, that they need to do this to please me. But I also wanna show them how excited I am for their journey and their success.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  And, and foster a flame of, um, uh, foster a flame for them with what they're doing. Cause I think having a hobby or being, it doesn't, you don't have to be amazing, but having a hobby and caring about something is a really important thing. How do you guide a parent to make sure that they're getting that fine? It feels like dancing on a nice edge and getting that right with their child.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. In really simple terms, reward effort, not outcome. Yeah, reward the intrinsic motivations, not the extrinsic motivations of outcome and achievement. And what I mean by that is intrinsic motivations is, you know, well done when you got up and got going again when you fell over in that race, right? Because that's perseverance, right? Or well done when you had to problem solve that tricky situation, right? And that's, that's problem solving, that's play. Or, yeah, well done when you had to help your teammate who had no idea what she was doing on the netball court, right? That's, that's purpose, that's love, right? You're rewarding the intrinsic motivations which your son or daughter can control. Yeah, you can't control whether they win a game or how many goals they score when they're A team or the B team. If you start to reward that, and you're right, it's a fine

• 39:35Speaker 00

  line because we love our kids. So we love to see them have success. Yeah. But part of the journey is get them to redefine success from an intrinsic scorecard, not an external scoreboard.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Which is so, it's so tricky because it's like, we have all been brought up on, under the model of like, great shot if it went in. Correct. And if it misses, it's like, ah, bad luck. Correct. Yeah. Correct. And so it's like, it's, we're having to completely shift our perspective and shift the way that we then talk to kids or other people. It reminds me a lot of, and I know you've read The Courage to be Disliked, I know. And it reminds me a lot of one of the hardest concepts to get my head around in that book, which is like all based on Alfred Adler's stuff. Yeah. Adlerian, yeah. Is, his whole thing is like, never praise, never rebuke. Yep. Which is so against the way that we've all lived our life. But I think it's sort of connected to this a little bit.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is. Yeah, I disagree slightly. You can praise, but you praise the right things.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 40:37Speaker 00

  Right. So getting back to your point and getting back to the question, like, you've heard me say this before, right? The six most powerful words a parent can say to their kids is, um, I love to watch you play. Because it's unconditional. It's not conditional upon whether they won or lost, or they scored a goal, or in the A team or the B team. The three most powerful words that a parent can say to their kids is, I often ask people this question, okay, what's the three most powerful words you can say? And they often say, I love you, or, um, you are enough. And I say, nah.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  You better win.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we need to have a separate conversation. Um, the three most powerful words you can say to your kids are, no matter what.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Whatever you want to do with your life, I'm going to support you no matter what. Right. I've got your back no matter what. It's like it's unconditional. Yeah. Right. It's not conditional, right? So you help them redefine success and redefine what a win is. So unfortunately, most of us live our life, and Hugh, I reckon you taught me this like many, many years ago. That when then syndrome, that you know, when I get that promotion, then I'll be successful. All right. Or when I get that goal, when I get in the A team, then my parents will love me, right? And it creates this cortisol because this gap mentality, because I'm here, but I want to be there in the future to make my parents happy. Right. And it creates so much pressure and you'll never get there anyway, because you get there and you think, oh, I still don't feel enough.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  Because you're chasing the wrong version of love. So God, now I've got to do it again. I've got to do it again, rinse and repeat. And you never feel enough, right? But there's such a better way to teach our kids how to live and how to push themselves to realise their potential. And that's measure backwards from where you first started, right? So if you gave your son a piece of paper and said, right, I write down all the little wins and all the successes and gains you've had from when you first started. Right. To where you are now. And they wrote all these incredible little things they've had along the way. And then you say to them, how do you feel when you look at that list? Incredible list, right? They'll often say one of five words. They say they feel successful or grateful. They feel happy. They feel confident and they feel content. Yeah. Now they're not done yet, right? They've got all these goals and dreams they want to chase down.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  But it means everything they go after from this moment on is a want, not a need. If I need to get this goal, if I need to get this this score in order to be validated, right? Yeah. That's going to create pressure straight away. So and the way you do that is literally create a success list. That's based on the present moment and intrinsic, not extrinsic, right? So rather than saying, I know I'll be successful when, and put yourself into that gap mentality. You say, I know I'm being successful when.

• 43:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:06Speaker 00

  So if you've got your kids to write down that list, I know I'm being successful when. They'll probably write down when I train really hard and I do something new for the first time. Right. Or I problem solve and I finally get the goal. Right. So they start to learn. They're focusing on these intrinsic motivations. If you can continue down that list. I know I'm being successful for me when I get eight hours sleep or I have a belly laugh with friends. Or I get out of my comfort zone or I learn something new or I see a beautiful sunrise or. I get every green light on the way to work, right? Or I have a favorite coffee with my favorite barista. You're starting to redefine success for you and only you. You're determining success for you. It's not determined by what I think my parents want or my coach wants or my teacher wants.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  I'm determining success for me because the definition of success is the alignment between what you truly value. And how you live. That's what success is.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  It's not predicated on someone else's definition of success for you. So align it to what you truly value and that could be as simple as having a laugh with friends. Right? And then you redefine what a win is as well. And what I mean by that is identify three wins that you had today. Right. At school or in training and so forth. And three wins that you'd like to have tomorrow. Because if you do that exercise, write down the neuroscience, and this is crazy, right? First and foremost, you go to bed grateful for those three wins that you had, that your negative brain doesn't want you to remember. But secondarily, overnight, while you're sleeping, your brain is problem solving those three wins that you'd like to have tomorrow. And again, a win might be simply as getting out of my comfort zone or training really hard.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Now, if you do that for seven days, that's 21 wins that your negative brain didn't want you to remember.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  But more importantly, you're redefining success into the present moment. So you don't have to wait to be happy or successful in the future.

• 44:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  You can be happy and successful and content right now, just by how you redefine. And the language that you mentioned, Josh, for parents is so important. Because you said it's such a fine line between well done, you got a goal or well done, you got an A. Or well done for training really hard for that exam or for that game. Well done when you fell down, you kept going.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  This is what we call intrinsic motivations and kids can control those, right? They can't control the extrinsic. I don't want their parents expect of them and so forth, but they can control those.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  It's great. And I think it's such an important message because I think culturally. It's the opposite. Like there are so many examples for kids culturally of extrinsic being the only value from sport to Instagram. It's everywhere as we know. And it's, um, it's such an important message because I think it's sometimes a parent, I think you feel like you're fighting against, if you're doing your best, but you're fighting against so much pressure that is pushing in the other direction. So only examples for kids to grab on to. So that's brilliant.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  The, the thing that I, I've, you know, I'm, you know, in my early thirties now. And it's not that funny, but, um, um, but I,

• 46:09Speaker 00

  How old are you?

• 46:10Speaker 02

  I'm 44. And so my whole, my whole life I have been, my life has been dictated, like so many was dictated by what other people, like these expectations and what, you know, trying to, whether it's like making something so other people will think that I'm great, or essentially like most things I do is for the approval of others, the validation of others. And over the, actually over the, the summer break, I was reading, rereading the, the sequel to Courage to Be Disliked, which is the courage to be happy. And it's kind of a refresh of the first one, but also it's some new stuff. But one of the things that I, it like kind of hit me like a bolt of lightning was that, as I, I,

• 46:56Speaker 02

  and it's sort of obvious to say, but I kind of, it led to me kind of having like a new year's resolution, which is like, I am done with doing anything for other people. I am seeking my own approval on everything I do now.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  So listening to what you just said, and you are still on a journey to identify some beliefs that are holding you back from believing that you are worthy.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Unconditionally, no matter what, just as you are. So you don't have to prove anything to anyone else.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  That's not your responsibility in life.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  If I said to you, what's my role, what's your role in life? I don't think you'd say to please others or prove others, right? Be the best version of you. If it's got purposes attached to it and potential attached to it, it's going to help the world, right? It's going to help whether it's your art show, or whether it's your comedy, or whether it's the imperfects. You combine play, purpose and potential, right? As the three, by the way, these are the three most important intrinsic motivations for humans. And it's the top three reasons anyone goes to work. So yeah, getting back to your very first question in terms of parents. What does play look like today? Just asking yourself that question. Or am I in the play state? Or am I in the fear state? Because the opposite of play isn't work. The opposite of play is fear.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  And I really wanted Esther Perel on the front cover of the book. But she was the first person who, in my opinion, totally understood the relationship between play and love. There's a school of thought in psychology. There's only two emotions, you know, love and fear. And every other emotion is a derivative of one of those two. So excitement and passion and confidence is love. And anxiety, stress, worries, fear. But it's the same with play. So because the opposite of play isn't work, the opposite of play is fear. And suddenly realised that, okay, if the opposite of love is fear and the opposite of play is fear, then maybe play and love are related. And when I tried to define it, you couldn't, right? You can't find a single definition of love because it means something different to everyone.

• 48:59Speaker 00

  And you can't find a single definition of play because it means something different to everyone. And then I had this, whoa, maybe, just maybe, love is the noun and play is the verb. Love is the intention and play is the action. And maybe the Beatles were only half right. Maybe as human beings, all we need is love.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  But as human doings, all we need is play. So play mobilises love. Wow, so play is just the key to it all, really, isn't it? It needs a fundamental rebrand because as humans, we're, you know, as homo sapiens, we're naturally designed to play by nature. But at the moment, we're play deprived, which is a bit like being sleep deprived. And when we're play deprived, our mood darkens. And I've never seen so much fear. In the world today, especially in the workforce and in schools and so forth, they don't call it fear, they call it pressure, feeling so much pressure, so much pressure, right? So, and in my opinion, it's because when we're extrinsically motivated and focus on things we can't control, that emotional pressure and that outcome pressure creates that fear.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 00

  But getting back to being intrinsically motivated gets us back into the play state, right? So, and what a play looks like at any moment of the day changes, and that's why play is so beautiful manifestation of love, right? Whether you're making art, making jokes, making movies, making love, right? If we're in the play state, we're not in the fear state. So when I'm working with athletes, I'll always ask them, okay, or the mantras that they can ask themselves in any time, rather than berating themselves, right? Am I in the play state or am I in the fear state? The second question is, what does play look like for me here? Sometimes it looks like curiosity, quickest way to get into play, having fun. Sometimes it's really hard work and problem solving, right? Sometimes it's experimentation, sometimes it's imagination and so forth.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  But as long as we are in the play state, however we define it, whatever is required in that moment, in my opinion, we're closer to love than we realise. And it's a quirky topic to talk to, especially alpha males about this, but the amount of aha light bulbs go on when people realise, yeah, I'm not in the fear state, you know, I'm back in the play state and then I'm more authentic when I'm in that state.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  God, yeah, absolutely.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  It's so well explained, and I think it's so, I mean, I can't help but look at everything through the lens of parenting right now, that's kind of the way I'm thinking of it and thinking about my kids and play. But I do want to get to the audience questions, our wonderful Patreon audience.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  From a little more imperfect subscriber show, yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we put the call out to them and just said, look, what do you want to know from Ben Coe? And we've got some fantastic questions, but.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  What's your real first name?

• 51:42Speaker 01

  So.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  This is from Annie. Annie says, what advice do you give to young ones when figuring out what they want to do as a career? In particular, what kind of mindset they should adopt? And it says in brackets here, from someone who thought they had a clear career path, but now that dream no longer appeals to them.

• 52:02Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  That's a very specific question to Annie, but I feel like for a lot of people, because we had someone jump on the back of that straight away and say, replying to Annie's question, how do you support your child going through the above? Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. When I'm talking to teenagers about their careers, I tell them to focus on two things only. What am I excited about? Like, what am I passionate about? And what am I good at? Or what do I think I'm going to be good at? Right? And it's a, it's a life journey, right? The curiosity to go, well, what's the answer to those two questions, right? It's, you're not going to figure that out at the age of 18. I'm 58 and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up, right? So staying curious to what is it that I could be best in market at and really good at from a capability point of view? And what is it that I'm passionate about? Right? And the third question is, okay, how do I make a dollar from the answer to those two questions? Now, you don't have to make a dollar, it could become a hobby, right? You're running, for instance, you're passionate about it and you're good at it, right? If you're a professional, you got

• 52:58Speaker 00

  paid for it, well, then you've got the, the holy grail, right? And Ikarigai, the Japanese framework for finding purpose, is the combination of those three things. The fourth world in Ikarigai is the world needs it. So, you know, that question you asked me earlier about, does it just matter to me or matters to the world? Well, it's, it's great that it matters to you, but it's even better if there's, it has an impact, right? A legacy on the, on the planet as well. But I'd say, Hugh, it's, it's much about finding out what you don't like to do or what you're not good at along that journey. Don't have it all figured out. But the most important place state for that, to answer that question, is curiosity, right? Stay curious. Like, maybe I'll have a crack at that. Maybe I'll have a go at that. And maybe I'll be good at that. Maybe I like it, maybe I won't, right? You don't have

• 53:41Speaker 00

  to have it figured out. So it's more a process of elimination of working out what I don't like or what I'm not good at along the way, right? If you get all three, then that's brilliant, but you might not. You might find purpose in other aspects away from your work. You might find it in your family. You might not get that intrinsic benefit of finding real meaning from my work. But I might get it in my relationships and being part of a community and so forth.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 54:07Speaker 00

  You just literally go on that journey, stay in that play state is, yeah, what will excite me? What will light me up? And what am I good at? Right? And continue just to have the curiosity to kind of tease that out. Might, might take a lifetime. And if it doesn't work out, just because it doesn't work out, let's say you start a restaurant and you do it for a few years and you don't want to do it anymore. Right? Society might call you a failed restaurateur. Or you write a few books and you don't want to be an author anymore. You're not a failed author. Right? Ash Partey's not a failure because she retired at 25 years old. She just had other goals and dreams she wanted to chase down, right? And wanted to start a family, wanted to start a foundation. So staying true to you in terms of answering those questions would be, yeah, for me, the, the, the first way to stay in your lane.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Because that is often like, as a teenager, uh, back, sort of bringing in that, the expectations again. It's like, it's, it's the, the biggest obstacle in people. Like you could, you can figure all those things out, like figure out like, what do I get excited about? What am I good at? Um, but as a teenager, it's really, really hard to get past the pressure of like, well, I'm really excited about pottery and I'm pretty good at it. But I can't, that can't be my career. Like, you know, because it's, you go to the careers counselor or your parents and they're like, well, these are the courses that you could get into and this, these are the good, safe careers.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  It takes so much, I think, well, probably great parenting, but also self-assuredness from the teenager to be like, I know it's a little bit, um, uh, unconventional.

• 55:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  But I'm going to follow my heart and I'm going to do the, do the pottery, even though I, it, there's no clear path to like, quote unquote, success.

• 55:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  The expectation that they assume is there thwarts that, the ability to kind of follow the dream and follow the excitement.

• 56:00Speaker 00

  Yep. And that's the greatest tragedy, in, in my opinion, is where following someone else's expectations, we've only got one life. Right. Let's do what we think we value and what impact we'd love to have and just stay in our lane. Like you do you do and I'll do me, as my wife says, or my yoga teacher says, stay on your mat, right? Not physically, like metaphorically, stay on your mat. Right? Stop. Don't compare your downward facing dog to someone else's, right?

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Ben, stay on your mat. Why do you keep getting off your mat, Ben? Just go back to your mat.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  Exactly. And it's the distraction today. And the reason, by the way, the reason we're so distracted with these expectations is because, well, getting back to attachment theory, we crave attachment to the tribe and our greatest fear is rejection from the tribe. But we've gone too far to care more about what you think of me, what I think you expect of me, rather than what I think of me and what the expectations I have for me. So we need to create a boundary for ourselves. Accept that we can't please other people or live up to anyone else's expectations, but also accept that it's not our role in life to do that. Our role is to be the best version we can be for us. Now, if that ends

• 57:13Speaker 00

  up becoming a pottery teacher or selling pottery or a pottery expert, but I'd say to that, that question, stay in the play state, right? Experiment. What else could you do with pottery? All right. What else could you do with, with craft, right? Stay curious, experiment, try new things, have fun with it, right? It might morph itself into something else. So if I, if this exercise was about getting you guys in the play state, I'd be saying, right, tell me what you loved to do when you were a kid. What did you just play around with? There's a very good chance that everything that you three were doing when you were younger has formed what you're doing today. Our play history forms how we show up as adults. So if you were playing with, you know, playing hospitals and doctors

• 57:57Speaker 00

  and nurses, right? Very good chance you weren't playing. There's a good chance you were preparing, right? For a future career as a doctor or nurse, or you're playing with Lego. There's a very good chance you became a consultant or an engineer and so forth. So it's fascinating when we trace back our play histories and think about that as relates to how we show up today as adults.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Because we often just don't know. You know, it's like we, it's like we, we're either told how, how this dream will end, or it's like where, where someone thinks it will go. And all we assume that like, I can't really do that because what's it really going to lead to? What's even the point of following it? But the thing that I've found time and time again is we have no idea where this thing will lead.

• 58:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  Even though if at the start, it kind of seems innocuous and maybe even pointless from like a career point of view or a future point of view. It's like, it's like often we don't know what opportunities or relationships or journeys are going to come from things that you're just drawn to naturally. Luke McGregor, who is a standup comedian, his story is, is just great and so perfect for this. Where it's like, he, he was working in finance, I think, in a job that he just really, really didn't like. And he's not like a gregarious guy around the office, but I think he probably recognized that he was funny and he wanted to do comedy. He always wanted to do it, but he didn't necessarily know the pathway.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  He certainly wasn't from an environment where that was, um, not to speak for him, not necessarily not encouraged, but he probably just didn't have a lot of modeling around him.

• 59:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  That he could see a pathway to that. But then one day he was like, I'm going to try, I'm just going to try it. And he just started doing like open mics more and more. And, and he was, he'd never done standup before, so he started doing it more and more. He's like, I'm pretty good at it. I'm pretty good at it. Until eventually he was earning enough money that he could quit his job. And he's like, obviously now a very successful comedian, actor, writer. And it's just like, I, I just love it when people do that because there's no way he would have thought, uh, when he got, went on a Tuesday night, when he goes to this comedy club, there's no way he would have thought this is going to lead to me getting, making several of my own TV shows. It's just, it's, he wouldn't have thought that he just like followed his.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Totally, totally. And the science behind that, I'd say he was in the play state and he was curious, he was creating, experimenting, keep going. He was a sense of purpose, like it meant something to him. It didn't really matter whether it was making other people laugh or seeing if he was good at. But he was also in a sense of potential, learning and growing and mastering the craft and getting out of your comfort zone. And the order of is really important, right? The reason play is the number one motivation, anyone in the world goes to work is fundamentally affects the work itself. You think about you three with the imperfect, everything you do is play, everything, right? So it's fundamental to the outcome of the product that you create. And that could be in customer service or whatever it is. The reason purpose is number

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  two, because it's one step removed. The play that you do here has a purpose. Yeah. What you're doing has a reason and that reason really matters to you and the world. Potential is two steps removed. It's a means to an end. Yeah, that learning and growing and getting a comfort zone to realise your potential. So my son might want to become a lawyer and he's currently working as a barista, but he can still be motivated by potential, you know, the possibility of continually going and getting out of his comfort zone to eventually become a lawyer. So identifying how you can tap into those intrinsic motivations as a barrier, a protection from expectations of others and, you know, money and fame and status and recognition and all these things that sabotage us along

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  our hero's journey. For me, it's just so profound and we can control them as well. You know, that will define them differently to everyone else, but it's not our role to compare ourselves to someone else's journey anyway. So.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  So we spoke about leadership before, a fantastic question here from Rhys on the very topic. So as a leader who is quite avoidant in conflict, this impacts the team at times when tough decisions slash conversations need to be had with team members. Speaking what I should be saying to these team members as their manager gets watered down with not wanting to upset people and want to keep the peace. Any tips to overcome slash approach leadership as someone who is anxious at times?

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, we confuse conflict with disagreement. You actually want disagreement. That's where innovation comes from, the intersection point of different opinions coming together. But unfortunately, we confuse that with conflict. And as humans, we're conflict avoiders. We go into that fight or flight kind of stage. So the first thing I'd say is learn the art of a crucial conversation. Crucial conversation is when the stakes are high, emotions are strong and opinions differ. What happens next determines whether it's a good conversation or typically it's a really, really bad conversation because we've got that fight or flight or freeze state, silence or violence. But there is a really simple approach to having a crucial conversation. And I think you can Google elements of this. It's called SBI.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  SBI stands for situation, behaviour and impact. And then you throw in a generous assumption. I love generous assumptions. I'm obsessed by generous assumptions because it creates empathy and compassion and removes conflict. So as an example, right? Situation, my event, yesterday in the meeting, I'll use you and I as the example here. Yesterday's meeting, which is the situation. Behaviour is when you laughed at my idea. Impact made me feel like shit. Generous assumption. I know it wasn't your intention. Like, I know you're a good person. Like, I know the real Hugh, but that's how you made me feel. As soon as you add that generous assumption, the person goes, okay, I'm not under attack here. Because he knows the real me, but I still behaved in a way.

• 1:03:45Speaker 00

  So you don't want to lose the behaviour, right? But you don't want to kill the relationship. And then the person, oh, I'm so sorry, Ben, I didn't realise, I wasn't laughing at your idea. I was laughing at, you know, how you spoke or I was laughing at something else or so forth. So it encourages an understanding and a pull of meaning. So if we can learn, you can write it out, right? When I do this with leaders, who, by the way, we all struggle with conflict by nature because we want to be part of the tribe and we fear rejection. But you don't want to have an organisation where you don't have disagreement, right? If you all agreed on what you're going to do for the live show, right? You've got this institutionalised group thing. There's going to be no disruption in innovation, yeah? I think Seinfeld talks about how they write their episodes. It's, or Jason Sudeikis with Ted Lasso, right? They add on, you don't own your own ideas.

• 1:04:29Speaker 00

  So there's no ego attached with whatever idea I come up with, right? So, but the generous assumptions are so powerful. And generous assumptions, because what happens is we judge ourselves on our intentions, but we judge everyone else on their behaviours. And we don't know what their intentions are. So our reptilian brain with a negative bias fills in the blank. And obviously it's more negative. Josh, why wasn't I copied on that email? Why didn't you invite me to that meeting? But if you simply said to yourself, what's the most generous assumption I can make by why Hugh did that? Or why Josh or Ryan did that? Suddenly empathy and compassion is filling the room and filling the relationship. And shame, that not good enough for your rejection can't exist when empathy and compassion are in the relationship.

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  And all you've got to do is practise generous assumptions, right? I was driving here and someone cut me off on traffic and I had to slam on the brakes. He didn't put his indicator on. My first impression, I want to kill you, you asshole, right? But if I simply said to myself, what's the most generous assumption I can make by why that person did that? I'll probably say, he was racing to the hospital, his wife's about to have a baby, or his son's been hit by a car, or he's left the oven on at home, right? Now, in one second, I flipped from the cortisol, right? Conflict, conflict, conflict. And brought empathy and compassion in. And all I did was say, what's the most generous assumption I can make? As Ted Lasso would say, right? I love my dad for who he was and I forgive him for who he wasn't, right? But just asking yourself, generous assumptions are a superpower inside families, inside organisational cultures.

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  And but most importantly, they are beautiful to kind of handle conflict as well.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had the exact thing last night as a parent. It was our daughter was just.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  The meltdown before bed and it was going for ages and it was the exact thing of like, what's some, I was so frustrated, been such a long day and I was exhausted and hadn't had much to say the night before, but I, I literally did that thing of like, what's some, and I, it, it actually helped me work out what was going on as well. Like it was a generous assumption, but it was also true. Like she's starting school in three days' time. And that is such a huge thing and there'd be so much anxiety underlying there for her. And it just struck her, I was like, oh, of course, like, absolutely, you need to get all this out of your system. And I'm the safe person to do it too. And I'm so privileged that you feel comfortable doing this in front of me because this is you trying to get this nervous, anxious energy out and I'm here, like I, I held her for like an hour until she fell asleep and it was great.

• 1:06:52Speaker 00

  The fact that she felt safe to do that with you and that's a privilege that, you know, as opposed to why is this happening or why are you angry? That empathy and understanding actually makes the relationship stronger. It's incredible.

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  One, one thing that may not seem obvious to anyone else, maybe it was just happening in my head, that one, I think I would need to be careful with generous assumptions that I don't end up gaslighting myself. And starting to say.

• 1:07:17Speaker 00

  What do you mean by that?

• 1:07:18Speaker 03

  To take the example that you used before, someone laughing at you and you felt offended by it. Um, I would worry that if I gave them the generous assumption, that I would sort of say to myself, nah, you shouldn't have been upset about that and start to gaslight myself that the behaviour that they did was actually okay. When sometimes the behaviour might not have been okay.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  Like them laughing at me in that situation. It's like a too generous assumption. Yeah, it's like you've taken the, I can see myself taking the generous assumption too far to a point where I'm yeah, make questioning myself, did something actually happen there that was maybe, maybe they were all, everyone else is in the right. And I was the one in the wrong because I took it too personally. Almost to the extent where you're excusing bad behaviour. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:07:58Speaker 00

  And it's really important point that generous assumptions, like acceptance, right? It's not putting up with mediocrity. It doesn't mean accepting or placating bad behaviour. All it means that in this moment, things cannot be other than how they are. And I'm not going to play a generous assumption rather than a negative one. You've still got then the ability to ask a question, right? What, what are you laughing at? Yeah, it just means that in the first moment, you don't go into fight or flight stage.

• 1:08:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  You're not getting distracted by someone else's. And it's literally passed on, you know, one person can say they're laughing with me. Generous assumption and someone else can say they're laughing at me. Negative assumption and who's right? Yeah. So all you do, you're choosing a generous assumption. But then again, if their behaviour you don't think is correct in alignment with your values, you've still got agency to kind of be curious or ask a question to understand what the context was, was for them, right? So you're not putting up with bad behaviour, you know, or accepting, you know, mediocrity, or placating bad behaviour. It's just in the moment, you're not using that as interference, right? For where you want to go. And it's dependent on the levels of sensitivity passed on through your genes. So you might be more sensitive than Hugh, right?

• 1:09:13Speaker 00

  Or vice versa. Hugh might have thought they're laughing with him and you might have thought they're laughing at him. So he might intuitively, by having lower levels of sensitivity, not taking an offence, where you might have taken offence. You've both got agency though, can I do something about it? Take action, right? You've still got agency to be curious and investigate to see, okay, am I safe in this environment? Or do I not trust this person's intention or behaviour? So you can still move forward. It's just in that first moment, generous assumptions creates a boundary for yourself.

• 1:09:43Speaker 03

  And it almost feels like the generous assumption moves it from, which is sort of what you said, but from conflict to disagreement.

• 1:09:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's still confusion in you. You're still curious about why they're laughing and you want to get to the bottom of that to feel that you're safe and they're, you know, they're part of your tribe.

• 1:09:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  And that should be your role as well, so that you feel safe.

• 1:10:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 00

  And enjoying the relationship and so forth. So it's not just accepting someone's bad behaviour and this is my lot in life. You've still got a role. You still want to feel connected and a sense of belonging as well.

• 1:10:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Question from Sonia, which also could be a question from me. I often feel caught between craving a simple, meaningful life and the drive to keep striving and expanding. How do you think about holding both contentment and self-actualisation?

• 1:10:28Speaker 03

  Great question.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  Beautiful question, yeah. My favourite mantra, Hugh, is I am enough, no matter what, but I'm not done yet.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Okay, great answer.

• 1:10:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, so yeah. It basically means.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  I am enough means I'm content. I'm content in who I am as a human being. I'm not content with the goals and dreams that I wanna chase down in my life. And I'm not content with the impact that I can possibly have on someone else's life, whether I'm a parent or a friend or so forth. You'll never be content, there's no finish line to your purpose, right? Again, if you're purpose driven, there's no finish line, you'll never get there. Right, you'll always be, but if it's doing from the right reason, you're doing the right thing for the right reason in the right way, that's fine. But if you're doing it in order to feel content, in order to feel worthy of love or so forth, you'll never get there. So intentionality is everything to that question.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  I'd love that so much, and I just wanna follow up with this question from John, because it's along the same lines. But I'm so interested in your answer to this. So how do you balance being warm, open and emotionally available, without slipping into people pleasing or over giving?

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, doing it, yeah, again, I'd say doing it for the right reasons. Yeah, if you're doing it because you are the pleaser, right? I think I need to please you, Hugh, in order for me to feel that I belong. Yeah, so the goal is I feel like I belong already, right? I wanna be kind to you, not nice to you, right? I'm being nice because, you know, I'm fabricating it so you'll like me. As opposed to, no, generally on my to be list, Ben Crowe wants to be kind. It's a value, it's important to me, right? So I'll come from that intention. It's not so that you think I'm a good person. It's because that's living a life true to me and having the courage to be me, and that might be kind. So again, intentionality really is really important in terms of how you think.

• 1:12:19Speaker 00

  If you believe you're worthy of love, just as you are, no matter what, right? And it's not about me anyway. I've kind of found myself and then I can lose ego and fear it's not about me. And I can find someone else, right? We're not islands on this planet, right? We're here to play, to serve, to love, to care, to help, right? To do something of substance while we've got this limited time on this planet. Part of that is, you know, in the last chapter of the book, I spoke about social Darwinism. Everyone thought his whole theory was, you know, survival of the strongest. But we got it wrong. It was survival of the kindest. And the evidence suggests that the communities that are the most kind work together in tribes. And they continually adapt.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  That's a big problem for the world right now.

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  Totally, totally. But if we're at each other's throats, that's how species kind of fall out. And so, yeah, getting back to kindness, it's intrinsic in all of us.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  This has been so amazing today. Thank you so much. I know you've got a lot on today. I guess a final question from me. And it's one that I sort of hadn't planned to ask. I was just thinking about it as we were chatting. You, I guess, probably quite deliberately, and I totally respect that, don't speak a lot about your kids sort of in public. And I totally understand that. But I'm interested to know, what are you most proud of with your boys in relation to the stuff that you talk about? So what is it that you talk about that you think perhaps they do really well? Maybe naturally, or maybe it's because of you and Sal. Yeah. But what are you most proud about?

• 1:13:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And this is definitely more Sally's influence than than mine. Because Sally's huge on being values driven and kind of purpose focused.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  I reckon you're pretty big on that.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  How many books has Sally written?

• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  In terms of the impact on the kids, though, it's definitely Sally more. And I mean, I mean that sincerely. Yeah, I actually wrote a story in the book, Hugh.

• 1:14:20Speaker 00

  One weekend, my mum just turned 97. And when my youngest boy Ned, when he was 13, I think, we went out and visited mum and we stopped off at a milk bar around the corner and had a sandwich there. And it was this beautiful Cambodian woman there. And she got talking to us. And it was incredibly emotional 15 minutes. And she was talking about the Khmer Rouge and escaping Cambodia and losing her family. She hasn't seen her family since. She doesn't even know whether her kids are still alive and so forth. But, you know, the courage to escape and she was able to escape with one of her daughters. And then we went and caught up with mum. The next day Ned played football.

• 1:15:00Speaker 00

  And the coach asked the boys, these 12 year old boys, to dedicate their game to someone who had impacted them, someone who had helped them along the way and inspired them in some way, shape or form. And Ned played the game of his life. He got best on ground and so forth. And then I'm driving him home and I said to him, um, who'd you dedicate your game to? I'm thinking, hoping it was me, but thinking it would possibly be Sally. And he said to me, he had a smile on his face. He goes, you know, that old lady we met yesterday in the milk bar? I dedicated my game to her and thinking about what she's, what she's gone through. And when you dedicate, and you can dedicate a moment, a lifetime to someone else who's helped you along the way.

• 1:15:41Speaker 00

  It takes that performance to such a spiritual level and a deeper level. And you lose ego and fear because it's literally not about you anymore. Right? You can dedicate this imperfect episode, you can dedicate a lifetime to someone who's helped you along the way. Um, I recently took on a lawyer.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Sorry, sorry for forgetting that story. I want to hear that. But, but how did you feel when, when Ned said that to you? Like, what, what were you feeling?

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, good. Yeah. I was just so incredibly proud. I have a problem with being proud. And because I always thought being, you know, pride is, is the wrong thing. But I just felt so much joy that his perspective, what was important to him and what he's learned along the way. And I could give you so many similar stories for both Sam and for Harry as well, is the way they make others feel. You know, that'd be interested, not interesting. I think they've got a beautiful balance between achievement. They want to do things with their life, but a sense of fulfillment and, um, yeah, relationships, experiences and memories. I think they've got the balance beautiful. Don't get me wrong. You know, when I spoke on, um, Hamish Blake's podcast, I think, I think I said, I made every mistake a dad could possibly make in terms of what we're

• 1:16:49Speaker 00

  talking earlier about, oh, well done when you got an A or well done when you got best in Ferris or whatever. Right. And what the, the mistake that that would have taught the kids along the way. And if I'd had my time again, I would have understood a lot of this. But yeah, I think they've, um, they have learnt and have intrinsically got a beautiful balance between what is important, um, from an intrinsic lens, not just an achievement, kind of extrinsic lens as well. So yeah, that's probably what I'm most proud of all three boys.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, the lawyer story very quickly, that you were just, you were about to launch.

• 1:17:21Speaker 00

  I recently took on a lawyer, um, who was responsible for suing Donald Trump in the Supreme Court on November the 5th last year. Um, you know, when the tariffs came in, um, they,

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  I think that was in the news.

• 1:17:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the lawyer reached out to me to ask if I would mentor him in the lead up in terms of pressure, right? And expectation. Wow. It was pretty, pretty full on. Anyway, he gave the delivery of his life and the feedback was phenomenal on, on this lawyer. And I spoke to him the next day and I said, well, congratulations first and foremost, whatever happens in terms of the, the actual trial, I heard you're incredible. What worked? Cause you literally did every single exercise that I've ever done with, with someone in a very short span of time. And he thought about it for a sec and he said, Ben, two things. He said, first and foremost, um, you know, the got to get to exercise rather than saying, I got to go to work. I say, I get to go to work, right? I got to do this podcast.

• 1:18:15Speaker 00

  I get to do this podcast. Well, he woke up the morning of the trial and instead of feeling all this pressure and expectation, he goes, you know what? I get to do this. I get to, you know, represent democracy. I get to try and take, um, get a, get a victory here for the constitution or so forth. And as soon as he said, I get to do this, he could not wait to get into the courtroom. He was so excited from that moment on, he was in a state of gratitude, right? And appreciation. The second thing he said worked was his father had passed away, um, before the trial and he used to speak to his dad every night before any very big case. And this is the most successful lawyer in, in US history in the Supreme Court. But he used to speak to his dad all the time. This was the first case he wasn't going to speak to his dad. Um, and he said that to me in our first session together. And I said,

• 1:19:00Speaker 00

  well, why don't you dedicate the entire trial to your dad, right? So your dad's literally in the courtroom with you, right? You can't see him. You can say, okay, what would dad do here, right? Or what would dad say to me in this situation? And as soon as he got into the courtroom, he did that. And he said that, and he said, the connection between his head and his heart. He said, it was such a spiritual moment for him. He was so calm and present from this moment on, in terms of dedicating, you know, um, that particular case to, to his dad. So. Brilliant. The last story I'll share. Just before I finished that chapter on redefining success, it's chapter nine in the book and it's one of my favourite chapters. I was trying to work out how to finish the chapter. Right in the middle of the chapter, my father-in-law, Rod Grace, passed away,

• 1:19:42Speaker 00

  Sally's dad. And just before, the Christmas before he passed away, he learnt a new game, which was beer pong, where you gotta throw a ping pong ball and you gotta skull a beer if you get it wrong. Anyway, he said to me halfway through the game, after he had his third skull, he goes, "This is the best game ever."

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  How old was he?

• 1:20:06Speaker 00

  I said, "Why?" Rod was 85. "This is the best game ever." And I go, "Why?" He goes, "Because even when you lose, you win." And I used to tell clients that in life, you're either winning or learning. But I was wrong. Because if something doesn't go your way today, but there's a lesson in it, like there's a learning in it, there's a growth in it, then that's technically a win. So even when you lose, you win. Just like Rod said. And I think that's a core message for where the light gets in, is when we're in our dark forest, right? And we're trying to slay our dragons and we're trying to work our way back into the light, we often think we're at our lowest ebb. But if you are a movie producer,

• 1:20:50Speaker 00

  you think of your life as a story, right? And things don't go your way, that's when your story gets interesting. That's when the writers are working overtime to try and make the protagonist see how he's going to overcome adversity and slay his dragon. So that's the advice. And I'm hoping that's the theme that comes through the book. If you're in a really dark place, just know that it's when your story gets interesting. Because it's not what happens to you in life that matters, it's how you respond. Like, what am I made of here? And yeah, my beautiful father-in-law taught me a beautiful lesson when I was trying to finish that chapter.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  Brilliant.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  You've always been so generous with not just the show, but us as individuals. We're so grateful for that. No offence to Mr. Cumberbatch, but you are my favourite Benedict.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:21:32Speaker 00

  I won't tell the Pope either, although he's passed away, so.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, just again, so much to take from that conversation. It's one that I'll be listening back to over and over. Like so many people will continue to tell us, they've listened to your episodes so many times. So we love you. Thank you, mate.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  And please send Russell our regards as well.

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  I will, I will. I hope he doesn't listen to this podcast. But no, congratulations, guys. And thank you for having me. As I said, it's a privilege to be part of this journey with you.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  Anytime, anytime.

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  Thanks, Ben.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  Cheers.

• 1:22:00Speaker 03

  If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber only apps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay any more, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who help make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, where we're our own people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.